<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Gary, you make some interesting points. Let's continue this debate.<div><br></div><div>First, on the issue of deferring health care reform to the states, I put to you that there is a historical pattern.</div><div><br></div><div>Resort to states' rights is an endgame tactic when opposition to reform becomes <i>morally indefensible</i> to the majority of the nation. It is a <i>delaying tactic</i> intended to draw out a <i>long train of abuses</i> (slavery is a case in point) and preserve the status quo against the irresistable forces of change.</div><div><br></div><div>Our nation is the last in the industrialized world to provide universal, not-for-profit-health care to every resident. We are debating it now, just as we are debating whether the world was created a few thousand years ago. It is as if people were still discussing the merits of slavery or whether women should vote, long after the rest of civil society has moved on. Not coincidentally, both the right for women to vote and the right to medical care were included in the 1948 UN <span class="Apple-style-span" style="text-decoration: underline;">Universal Declaration of Human Rights</span>.</div><div><br></div><div>A person has only to review just a few of the thousands of personal accounts, for example here</div><div><a href="http://stories.barackobama.com/healthcare">http://stories.barackobama.com/healthcare</a></div><div>to understand that health care reform is long past due.</div><div><br></div><div>I am aware of numerous abuses of government at any level. I got a recent reminder this week when a friend mailed me a report of the police raid (with pepper spray) of the Busby fundraiser. <a href="http://www.truthout.org/070209L">http://www.truthout.org/070209L</a></div><div><br></div><div>On the other hand, each of us has a personal responsibility for our share of the commons. The most obvious examples of this are custodianship of air, water, and soil, but it goes far beyond that. Rivers and winds and aquifers pay no regard to man-made boundaries of state and nation. There is no opting out of this fundamental responsibility, any more than there is opting out of any evolving standard of basic human decency. The need to cooperate with others becomes increasingly urgent as humanity increasingly challenges the physical limits of our planetary life support system.</div><div><br></div><div>Happy 4th, all.</div><div><br></div><div>Hal</div><div><br><div><div>On Jun 27, 2009, at 1:08 PM, Gary Franchi wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">Thanks Hal, glad you liked the production work... it's been a long road to get it up to that level...<br><br>but anyway... I can see your points and respect them, however the bottom line is the Federal Government doesn't have the authority for any of the programs you spoke of. Now would it be wise to wipe out medicare overnight? No way! Am I for casting aside the uninsurable? No way!<br> <br>The government has grown far beyond its intended purpose and I am all for states offing programs to fill the healthcare void if they see fit... but mandating it for the whole nation with no opt-out feature?<br><br>I remember when I got my first paycheck and I saw all the crazy deductions the Federal Government took... I was like What the Hell, no one asked me! Building an opt-out feature and let the people choose to participate is how things should be done... this includes, social-security, medicare, and every other program the corrupt politicians decide to throw our way...<br> <br>It's a state issue, this is a nation made up of sovereign independent states designed to check the Feds and fill the void...<br><br>As for the fire department analogy... it is irrelevant because at the local level the local taxes cover it... and I am not opposed to that.<br> <br>-Gary<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Hal Snyder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:hal@drxyzzy.org">hal@drxyzzy.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div style="">Nice job in production and post with the video installment, Gary.<div><br></div><div>But Ron Paul on <b>"socialized healthcare"?</b> He uses a combination of <i>scare talk</i> and <i>non sequiturs</i>. Didn't convince me at all. </div> <div><br></div><div><i>J'accuse.</i> I say it's time to stand up to Ron Paul and all the others who have marinated our culture in their free-market flim-flam for decades.</div><div><br></div><div>Let's have some debate. We came together on this mailing list with a common interest. Maybe it's time to discuss our differences.</div> <div><br></div><div>Hal</div><div><br></div><div>"government crisis rather than medical crisis" - this is pure rhetoric; he offers <b>no facts</b> to back this up. Tell the 47 million people on Medicare that you're going to cancel their evil, socialized, health care plans and they can go apply for coverage in the free market. Tell the ones who are not completely uninsurable due to a pre-existing condition that they can trade the 3% overhead of Medicare for a private plan with 30% overhead where any funds spent on actual health care are considered "medical loss".</div> <div><br></div><div>Ron Paul says most people don't talk about why medical costs are so high. Actually there is a lot of discussion going on about this. Private insurers keep 25% to 50% of premiums as profit and overhead. They spend our health care dollars on CEO salaries, marketing, underwriting, and a mushrooming bureaucracy whose sole purpose is to deny paying for care.</div> <div><br></div><div>Ron Paul talks about choice without mentioning the limits of the present system. We have 94% of insurance markets in the United States highly concentrated, with insurers thriving in the anti-competitive "free market", raking in enormous profits. This is hardly a "reaction to government" as Ron Paul says; it is <i>profiteering</i> in the worst way, getting rich off the suffering of others. One quarter to one half people employed in the U.S. complain about <i>job lock</i> - we are stuck in dead-end jobs, just to get some level of coverage. Meanwhile, health plans offered by employers - decreasing every day - are limited in number and limited in benefits.</div> <div><br></div><div>Tax credits are regressive. The let the fat cats off the hook and give a few dollars to the rest of us. They don't help if you're unemployed or just getting by.</div><div><br></div><div>You want choice, look at Australia, where people pay a flat 1.5% personal income tax to cover their major health care needs, regardless of who employs them or whether they have a job at all. You are free to choose your doctor and other practitioners. You are free to start your own business, take time between jobs to care for a loved one, or change careers, and still have uninterrupted affordable, quality care.</div> <div><br></div><div>"if the government starts a program, we ought to have the right to opt out of the program"... This is deceptively simplistic and ignores how deeply interconnected people are today. Consider fire departments. Do you want to opt out of paying for fire protection? If you do, you raise the cost for others and put your neighbors at risk. What about programs to protect the environment? Anyone living comfortably in this society is reaping the benefits of a system we all put in place.</div> <div><br></div><div>Fire Care - here's a video extending the fire department analogy<br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhpUG4apgrE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhpUG4apgrE</a></div><div><br> </div><div><div><div><div></div><div class="h5"><div>On Jun 26, 2009, at 10:35 PM, Gary Franchi wrote:</div><br></div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div></div><div class="h5"><b>Reality Report</b> <i>(episode 12) </i><br> <b>Kissinger, Obama, The FED and Mark Kirk Confess, featuring Ron Paul and Alex Jones</b><br> <br> Watch it here: <a href="http://blip.tv/file/2282584" target="_blank">http://blip.tv/file/2282584</a><br> <br> This Reality Report is stuffed to the gills with info just for you! We've got Kissinger calling to over throw Iran and Obama telling us we've done it before! We have the Federal Reserve confessing they misplaced a Trillion or so of your dollars and a few guys who are fighting Congressman Mark Kirk to get some transparency for the US Central Bank through HR 1207.<br> <br> We also have the extended report from Jekyll Island with Katherine Albrecht, Bob Schulz, Adam Kokesh, Clyde Cleveland, Ernest Hancock, G. Edward Griffin, Michael Badnarik and more.<br> <br> To add to the fun Gary Franchi will take you deep inside Alex Jones Studios for an exclusive behind the scenes look while filming for Camp FEMA.<br> <br> And to put the icing on the cake, Ron Paul makes an appearance to share his thoughts on Socialized Health Care.<br> <br> Oh and that squirmy Dictator Kim Jong Il rears his ugly head to shout some threats at the United States.<br> <br> With appearances by: Mark Kirk, Ron Paul, Alex Jones, Katherine Albrecht, Adam Kokesh, Clyde Cleveland, Ernest Hancock, Ernest Guy Cunningham, G. Edward Griffin, Michael Badnarik, Dr. Bob Frady and more!<br> <br> <b>This is one jam packed report that you need to see and share!</b><br> <br></div></div> Watch it here: <a href="http://blip.tv/file/2282584" target="_blank">http://blip.tv/file/2282584</a> _______________________________________________<div class="im"><br>CitizensTruth mailing list<br><a href="mailto:CitizensTruth@six.pairlist.net" target="_blank">CitizensTruth@six.pairlist.net</a><br> <a href="http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/citizenstruth" target="_blank">http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/citizenstruth</a><br>website: <a href="http://citizenstruth.info" target="_blank">http://citizenstruth.info</a><br> </div></blockquote></div><br></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br> CitizensTruth mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:CitizensTruth@six.pairlist.net">CitizensTruth@six.pairlist.net</a><br> <a href="http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/citizenstruth" target="_blank">http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/citizenstruth</a><br> website: <a href="http://citizenstruth.info" target="_blank">http://citizenstruth.info</a><br> <br></blockquote></div><br></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>