From brookelise at comcast.net Mon Apr 23 09:00:35 2007 From: brookelise at comcast.net (Brooke) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:00:35 -0500 Subject: [EricsonYachtsML] Test... In-Reply-To: <018c01c7822a$23da12c0$4901a8c0@aikiblack> References: AAAAAPKQ5Jn6XIpCq0jsYbLKXHRE4jcA <018c01c7822a$23da12c0$4901a8c0@aikiblack> Message-ID: <015501c785a7$637e1b30$2a7a5190$@net> I'm still not getting any mail from the list, even though messages I send are received by the list. This is another test, sorry to say. -- Brooke -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at dcmsi.com Mon Apr 23 08:35:16 2007 From: bob at dcmsi.com (Bob Robertson) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:35:16 -0500 Subject: [EricsonYachtsML] Test... References: AAAAAPKQ5Jn6XIpCq0jsYbLKXHRE4jcA<018c01c7822a$23da12c0$4901a8c0@aikiblack> <015501c785a7$637e1b30$2a7a5190$@net> Message-ID: <001e01c785a3$dc44ac40$6401a8c0@B> Hi Brooke, Hopefully, you receive this. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: Brooke To: ericsonyachtsml at ericsonyachts.org Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 8:00 AM Subject: Re: [EricsonYachtsML] Test... I'm still not getting any mail from the list, even though messages I send are received by the list. This is another test, sorry to say. -- Brooke ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ EricsonYachtsML mailing list EricsonYachtsML at ericsonyachts.org http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/ericsonyachtsml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gerald.vanbaren at smiths-aerospace.com Mon Apr 23 09:15:54 2007 From: gerald.vanbaren at smiths-aerospace.com (Jerry Van Baren) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:15:54 -0400 Subject: [EricsonYachtsML] GPS antenna question In-Reply-To: <00f801c7842c$3e1ffe20$ba5ffa60$@net> References: AAAAAPKQ5Jn6XIpCq0jsYbLKXHRE4jcA <018c01c7822a$23da12c0$4901a8c0@aikiblack> <00f801c7842c$3e1ffe20$ba5ffa60$@net> Message-ID: <462CB18A.1000901@smiths-aerospace.com> Brooke wrote: > A question for the electrical engineers on the list: > > We plan to set up our GPS chartplotter so that it can be used either at > the helm or nav station. There?s a concern that splitting the antenna > cable (so that it goes to fittings for the GPS at the nav station and > helm) could degrade the antenna signal. Then there?s the question of how > to split it, with a regular three-way cable splitter, which would > degrade the signal (but how much?), or with a manual two-way antenna > selector (from two GPS stations to one antenna), or with an automatic > antenna selector (again, two GPS stations to one antenna, but the signal > would be read automatically, switching to the GPS station in use). BAD idea. GPS signals are in the 1-2 GHz frequency range. Cable TV is in the 400MHz frequency range IIRC (regardless, it is in a totally different, and more importantly, lower frequency band). VHF/FM is in the 100-200MHz frequency range. From a bandwidth/frequency handling point of view, 100-500MHz is in a totally different world from 1.5GHz. A perfect splitter reduces your signal by 3dB (cuts it in half since it is splitting it in to two outputs). In the real world, it is probably closer to 4.5dB when used in the designed frequency band. If you use a splitter designed for the wrong frequency band, it will reduce the signal substantially more. Be aware that the GPS signal already is extremely weak. The signal level is actually _less than_ the noise level before filtering. The receivers are very clever and know what the signal "should look like" and thus are able to filter out the random noise in order to detect the signal. This is one of the reasons your receiver must know time/date/location (approximately) before it can detect the satellites. (The "autolocate" initialization just makes successive guesses and eventually gets lucky, but it takes a long time and sometimes gets confused, not lucky.) > Garmin actually recommends none of the above. They recommend not even > removing the fitting at the end of the cable, never mind splitting the > cable. Their solution would be buying two antennas (absurdly enough). > Removing the fitting voids the guarantee, which is the stupidest thing > because most people would have to remove it to thread it through various > places (deck, pedestal guard, etc.). Not absurd at all. Realistic. Remember that you, your boat, rocks, and other hazards to navigation tend to all be where there is a fair amount of civilization. Civilization makes lots of electronic noise. Do you want your GPS losing its signal where you rely on it most because you are using the wrong antenna setup? > The manual two-way antenna selector is on p. 33 in the 2007 West Marine > catalogue, btw, along with the automatic one, under coax, connectors & > cable. Would the automatic one, designed really for two VHFs, work with > a GPS antenna? BAD idea. VHF/FM is in the 100MHz range. Its losses are going to be huge at 1.5GHz. I don't have the latest WM catalog here, I presume you are referring to SHAKESPEARE ELECTRON Automatic Two-Way Antenna Selector : * Frequency Range: Up to 600 MHz * VSWR: Below 1.2:1 * Power Rating: 30W * Impedance: 50 ohms * Insertion Loss: Less than 1.2dB * Isolation: Better than 150dB * Connections: SO-239 type * Sensing/switching Time: Less than 100 ms * Power Supply: 12 vDC @200 ma * Construction: Cast aluminum case Problems: * 600MHz << 1500MHz (1.5GHz). Large losses likely. * This senses you transmitting on your VHF radio and switches the antenna to the input that just "lit up" (using a relay I would expect since it is only 1.2dB loss). This *disconnects* the antenna from the "unused" input. Problems: 1) Your GPS doesn't transmit. The splitter would pick one and input and never switch. 2) The "inactive" input receives no signal, so only one GPS would receive a signal at any given time (and you would have no way to get it to switch, see #1 above). * The connectors are wrong. The connectors for GPS are _very_ different from SO-239 type because of the frequencies involved (N-type look similar, but electrically are very different). SO-239 type have poor frequency characteristics at 1.5GHz. "Motorola" FM connectors aren't even in the same ballpark. * Mechanical switches: only one of your GPSes is going to receive signals at any given time. When you switch you will have up to 2 minutes delay (assuming all goes well) before you get a position fix on the GPS you just switched in. Also, the frequency response is undoubtedly totally unsuitable (again, 100MHz, maybe 400MHz vs. 1.5GHz). > And just for good measure, here?s another question: We have a Raymarine > repeater at the helm, and we wonder whether the chartplotter could be > linked in a series with the repeater and autohelm. The repeater gives > data from the chartplotter. Everything is NMEA, but the GPS instructions > show only one link ? to a repeater or to an autohelm. Would the link > work in a series, from chartplotter to repeater to autohelm, or from > autohelm to repeater? Sorry, no advice on this one. :-/ > Any advice on this? > > Thanks, > Brooke HTH, gvb From bob at dcmsi.com Mon Apr 23 13:06:30 2007 From: bob at dcmsi.com (Bob Robertson) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:06:30 -0500 Subject: [EricsonYachtsML] GPS antenna question References: AAAAAPKQ5Jn6XIpCq0jsYbLKXHRE4jcA <018c01c7822a$23da12c0$4901a8c0@aikiblack><00f801c7842c$3e1ffe20$ba5ffa60$@net> <462CB18A.1000901@smiths-aerospace.com> Message-ID: <007901c785c9$bdef3640$33c8a8c0@B> Hi Brooke, I have used the same NMEA out from one device to multiples for years. For example GPS out to Radar, Autopilot and a repeater. It works just fine. It is a parallel connection. The only thing you may run into is that NMEA is often being updated and has version levels. It is possible for some older devices to not support the current NMEA version levels. Let me know how else I can be of help. Thanks, Bob And just for good measure, here?s another question: We have a Raymarine > repeater at the helm, and we wonder whether the chartplotter could be > linked in a series with the repeater and autohelm. The repeater gives data > from the chartplotter. Everything is NMEA, but the GPS instructions show > only one link ? to a repeater or to an autohelm. Would the link work in a > series, from chartplotter to repeater to autohelm, or from autohelm to > repeater? Sorry, no advice on this one. :-/ > Any advice on this? > > Thanks, > Brooke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Van Baren" To: Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [EricsonYachtsML] GPS antenna question > Brooke wrote: >> A question for the electrical engineers on the list: >> >> We plan to set up our GPS chartplotter so that it can be used either at >> the helm or nav station. There?s a concern that splitting the antenna >> cable (so that it goes to fittings for the GPS at the nav station and >> helm) could degrade the antenna signal. Then there?s the question of how >> to split it, with a regular three-way cable splitter, which would degrade >> the signal (but how much?), or with a manual two-way antenna selector >> (from two GPS stations to one antenna), or with an automatic antenna >> selector (again, two GPS stations to one antenna, but the signal would be >> read automatically, switching to the GPS station in use). > > > > BAD idea. GPS signals are in the 1-2 GHz frequency range. Cable TV is in > the 400MHz frequency range IIRC (regardless, it is in a totally different, > and more importantly, lower frequency band). VHF/FM is in the 100-200MHz > frequency range. From a bandwidth/frequency handling point of view, > 100-500MHz is in a totally different world from 1.5GHz. > > A perfect splitter reduces your signal by 3dB (cuts it in half since it is > splitting it in to two outputs). In the real world, it is probably closer > to 4.5dB when used in the designed frequency band. If you use a splitter > designed for the wrong frequency band, it will reduce the signal > substantially more. > > Be aware that the GPS signal already is extremely weak. The signal level > is actually _less than_ the noise level before filtering. The receivers > are very clever and know what the signal "should look like" and thus are > able to filter out the random noise in order to detect the signal. This > is one of the reasons your receiver must know time/date/location > (approximately) before it can detect the satellites. > > (The "autolocate" initialization just makes successive guesses and > eventually gets lucky, but it takes a long time and sometimes gets > confused, not lucky.) > >> Garmin actually recommends none of the above. They recommend not even >> removing the fitting at the end of the cable, never mind splitting the >> cable. Their solution would be buying two antennas (absurdly enough). >> Removing the fitting voids the guarantee, which is the stupidest thing >> because most people would have to remove it to thread it through various >> places (deck, pedestal guard, etc.). > > Not absurd at all. Realistic. > > Remember that you, your boat, rocks, and other hazards to navigation tend > to all be where there is a fair amount of civilization. Civilization makes > lots of electronic noise. Do you want your GPS losing its signal where > you rely on it most because you are using the wrong antenna setup? > >> The manual two-way antenna selector is on p. 33 in the 2007 West Marine >> catalogue, btw, along with the automatic one, under coax, connectors & >> cable. Would the automatic one, designed really for two VHFs, work with a >> GPS antenna? > > BAD idea. VHF/FM is in the 100MHz range. Its losses are going to be huge > at 1.5GHz. > > I don't have the latest WM catalog here, I presume you are referring to > SHAKESPEARE ELECTRON Automatic Two-Way Antenna Selector : > > > * Frequency Range: Up to 600 MHz > * VSWR: Below 1.2:1 > * Power Rating: 30W > * Impedance: 50 ohms > * Insertion Loss: Less than 1.2dB > * Isolation: Better than 150dB > * Connections: SO-239 type > * Sensing/switching Time: Less than 100 ms > * Power Supply: 12 vDC @200 ma > * Construction: Cast aluminum case > > Problems: > * 600MHz << 1500MHz (1.5GHz). Large losses likely. > > * This senses you transmitting on your VHF radio and switches the antenna > to the input that just "lit up" (using a relay I would expect since it is > only 1.2dB loss). This *disconnects* the antenna from the "unused" input. > Problems: > 1) Your GPS doesn't transmit. The splitter would pick one and input and > never switch. > 2) The "inactive" input receives no signal, so only one GPS would > receive a signal at any given time (and you would have no way to get it to > switch, see #1 above). > > * The connectors are wrong. The connectors for GPS are _very_ different > from SO-239 type because of the frequencies involved (N-type look similar, > but electrically are very different). SO-239 type have poor frequency > characteristics at 1.5GHz. "Motorola" FM connectors aren't even in the > same ballpark. > > * Mechanical switches: only one of your GPSes is going to receive signals > at any given time. When you switch you will have up to 2 minutes delay > (assuming all goes well) before you get a position fix on the GPS you just > switched in. Also, the frequency response is undoubtedly totally > unsuitable (again, 100MHz, maybe 400MHz vs. 1.5GHz). > >> And just for good measure, here?s another question: We have a Raymarine >> repeater at the helm, and we wonder whether the chartplotter could be >> linked in a series with the repeater and autohelm. The repeater gives >> data from the chartplotter. Everything is NMEA, but the GPS instructions >> show only one link ? to a repeater or to an autohelm. Would the link work >> in a series, from chartplotter to repeater to autohelm, or from autohelm >> to repeater? > > Sorry, no advice on this one. :-/ > >> Any advice on this? >> >> Thanks, >> Brooke > > HTH, > gvb > _______________________________________________ > EricsonYachtsML mailing list > EricsonYachtsML at ericsonyachts.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/ericsonyachtsml > > From brookelise at comcast.net Mon Apr 23 18:16:04 2007 From: brookelise at comcast.net (Brooke) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:16:04 -0500 Subject: [EricsonYachtsML] GPS antenna In-Reply-To: <018c01c7822a$23da12c0$4901a8c0@aikiblack> References: AAAAAPKQ5Jn6XIpCq0jsYbLKXHRE4jcA <018c01c7822a$23da12c0$4901a8c0@aikiblack> Message-ID: <01e301c785f4$fc5a01a0$f50e04e0$@net> Gvb: Thanks for your very informative, very helpful note on GPS signals, connectors, etc. Sean Engle forwarded the note to me. Unfortunately, for some reason or other I can't receive ericsonyachtsml list mail at the moment, though I can send it. Thanks to anyone else who replied, too. Garmin is giving conflicting opinions on whether to use a splitter when only one GPS would be in use (at two different terminals, the helm and nav station). (The plan had been to use one chartplotter at either the helm or the nav station, since the it's easy to disconnect and move the chartplotter.) All the support techs said that one can't use a splitter with two GPS chartplotters (since it'd degrade the signal, as you said), but some thought it would work if only one chartplotter was being used at a time. However, the consensus seemed to be, again as you said, that it would be best to have two antennas, one for each GPS chartplotter station, without a splitter. That's what we'll do. I don't know where the list mail to me is getting lost. It's not being filtered out on my end (I've checked Outlook and McAfee), and it's not being filtered into Comcast's spam folder before it reaches my inbox. Maybe Comcast is filtering it out in some other way. List mail to Comcast addresses seemed to be bouncing last week. I won't see any replies. Sorry about that. Call me on Channel 68. -- Brooke E34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ssengle at worldnet.att.net Mon Apr 23 19:46:06 2007 From: ssengle at worldnet.att.net (Sean Shannon Engle) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:46:06 -0700 Subject: [EricsonYachtsML] Comcast has Blacklisted the EricsonYachtsML Email Server Message-ID: <00b701c78601$8fe30e60$6401a8c0@XPWORKSTN> FYI - So those of you with Comcast accounts won't be reading traffic from EricsonYachtsML (the www.EricsonYachts.org mail list) for a little while (until they act on my request).... Sorry for the hassle - thank your friends in Spam-O-Land... //sse ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sean Shannon Engle Admin, http://www.EricsonYachts.org admin at ericsonyachts.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gerald.vanbaren at smiths-aerospace.com Tue Apr 24 08:00:01 2007 From: gerald.vanbaren at smiths-aerospace.com (Jerry Van Baren) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:00:01 -0400 Subject: [EricsonYachtsML] GPS antenna In-Reply-To: <01e301c785f4$fc5a01a0$f50e04e0$@net> References: AAAAAPKQ5Jn6XIpCq0jsYbLKXHRE4jcA <018c01c7822a$23da12c0$4901a8c0@aikiblack> <01e301c785f4$fc5a01a0$f50e04e0$@net> Message-ID: <462DF141.3020301@smiths-aerospace.com> Brooke wrote: > Gvb: Thanks for your very informative, very helpful note on GPS signals, > connectors, etc. Sean Engle forwarded the note to me. Unfortunately, for > some reason or other I can?t receive ericsonyachtsml list mail at the > moment, though I can send it. Thanks to anyone else who replied, too. > > Garmin is giving conflicting opinions on whether to use a splitter when > only one GPS would be in use (at two different terminals, the helm and > nav station). (The plan had been to use one chartplotter at either the > helm or the nav station, since the it?s easy to disconnect and move the > chartplotter.) All the support techs said that one can?t use a splitter > with two GPS chartplotters (since it?d degrade the signal, as you said), > but some thought it would work if only one chartplotter was being used > at a time. However, the consensus seemed to be, again as you said, that > it would be best to have two antennas, one for each GPS chartplotter > station, without a splitter. That?s what we?ll do. Hi Brooke, I didn't understand that you were looking to run one GPS, physically moving it. I still am on the "no splitter" side, but a switch would be OK if it doesn't attenuate the signal too much. Unfortunately, switches that have low loss in the GHz range are going to be special and expensive. Hmmm, googleing for "GHz antenna switch" had a hit: The price is right ($20), although I would be more than a bit skeptical that it performs adequately for GPS use. Back on splitters, the reason I would hesitate is that the insertion will cause some loss but, more importantly, it is likely to cause reflections (interference) due to the unterminated leg. +------ (unused) Ant -------+ +------------- GPS If you terminate the unused leg with 50 ohms (I'm assuming the antenna is 50 ohms, usually is), you will have a 3db loss due to the splitting. If you do _not_ terminate the leg, signals will travel down the leg, bounce off the end, and create interference to the GPS. The principle is related to "ghosting" you get on TVs with over the air reception - the TV multipath "ghosting" interference is due to the same signal traveling two different distances (one signal bouncing off a building, for instance). With an unterminated stub (above), the signal reflects off the end of the stub and gets to the GPS slightly after the original signal. Ghosts and signal havoc ensue. [snip] > I won?t see any replies. Sorry about that. Call me on Channel 68. > > -- Brooke > E34 Hopefully the direct reply gets through... gvb '77 E27 From ssengle at worldnet.att.net Tue Apr 24 11:47:34 2007 From: ssengle at worldnet.att.net (Sean Shannon Engle) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:47:34 -0700 Subject: [EricsonYachtsML] Test - Disregard Message-ID: <008b01c78687$e0ff1970$6401a8c0@XPWORKSTN> Brooke - do you see this (all others, please disregard)? Thanks, //sse ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sean Shannon Engle Admin, http://www.EricsonYachts.org admin at ericsonyachts.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brookelise at comcast.net Tue Apr 24 19:17:56 2007 From: brookelise at comcast.net (Brooke) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:17:56 -0500 Subject: [EricsonYachtsML] Test - Disregard In-Reply-To: <008b01c78687$e0ff1970$6401a8c0@XPWORKSTN> References: <008b01c78687$e0ff1970$6401a8c0@XPWORKSTN> Message-ID: <031b01c786c6$cd83c500$688b4f00$@net> Yes, I see the message, Sean. From: ericsonyachtsml-bounces at ericsonyachts.org [mailto:ericsonyachtsml-bounces at ericsonyachts.org] On Behalf Of Sean Shannon Engle Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 10:48 AM To: ericsonyachtsml at ericsonyachts.org Subject: [EricsonYachtsML] Test - Disregard Brooke - do you see this (all others, please disregard)? Thanks, //sse ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sean Shannon Engle Admin, http://www.EricsonYachts.org admin at ericsonyachts.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuartm at pureresults.com Wed Apr 25 02:51:05 2007 From: stuartm at pureresults.com (Stuart MacKenzie) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 06:51:05 +0000 Subject: [EricsonYachtsML] Test... Message-ID: Hi Sean & all Got it in Greece. Yesterday we raced in 18-20+ knots, seas coming from everywhere, something like a washing machine, placed second. Not bad considering most of these guys have been doing this for 26 years. This year we are racing in 50' Bavaria's, had the puppy at 10 knots yesterday during a surf, average speed was 8-9 knots, a great rush for the few that were not hanging over the side or with their head in a bucket. Hot and sunny today on the Island of Patmos and it's only 9:30 am. Five more weeks to go.......Cheers Stuart S.V. Fairhaven Vancouver BC........For today Patmos Island, Greece. -----Original Message----- From: Donald Link [mailto:djlink at mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 03:20 AM To: ericsonyachtsml at ericsonyachts.org Subject: Re: [EricsonYachtsML] Test... got it Donald Link djlink at mindspring.com EarthLink Revolves Around You. ----- Original Message ----- From:Sean Shannon Engle To: ericsonyachtsml at ericsonyachts.org Sent: 4/16/2007 4:06:12 PM Subject: [EricsonYachtsML] Test... Just sending a test to all addresses on the list. If you get this, please reply... Thanks, //sse ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sean Shannon Engle Post Office Box 16482 Seattle, WA 98116-0482 c: 425-246-3358 h: 206-938-5565 e: ssengle at worldnet.att.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mstine7611 at earthlink.net Thu Apr 26 10:49:23 2007 From: mstine7611 at earthlink.net (Morgan Stinemetz) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 10:49:23 -0400 Subject: [EricsonYachtsML] Hats Ready Message-ID: <000801c78812$14b53fc0$6400a8c0@DESK> Fellow Vikings: For those of you who have ordered hats, I'll pick them up today and get them out either today or Friday. I have a dozen khaki with maroon logo and a dozen blue with white logo incoming. Existing orders won't put much of a dent in what I'll have on hand, so can ship immediately for any new orders. For pricing and address of where to send checks, please see previous posts on this subject. Thanks. Morgan Stinemetz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: