From andrew at aarmstrong.org Wed Oct 1 13:50:03 2008 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 18:50:03 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] [Monthly SIG Updates] October 2008 Message-ID: <48E3B84B.60308@aarmstrong.org> October has been a month of back-end work for me and others. Someone started the Whitepaper brainstorm, which I've yet to add mine and Devin's comments too. We'll hopefully see it updated more this month! Preservation SIG Updates In September the main update will have been the Contributions /Donations page (I might rename it shortly), encompassing a grand total of 6 (yes, six!) different organisations who might be willing to accept your old videogame material, especially developer items. I'm trying to search further afield (such as Asia, the rest of Europe, and so forth) - if you can translate any language into English and be a go-between, or know of /any/ possible archive or museum outside of the USA and the UK, please please contact us since this is really something I'd like to complete this century! Secondly, the Whitepaper has got off to a start - and yes, I've not had the time just yet to update it with my contributions or Devin's who have sent it to me, but I'll try and get that done this month. Henry said he'll have a look at it too, so hopefully we'll get going somewhere. If anyone has any off hand contributions to make, add them to our mailing list. Thirdly, the Memorials project has an entry for Laura_Geneder . On the Internet Archive front, I've uploaded some interesting bits and pieces, as has the Virtual Worlds project . See new interviews (such as pre-current generation console launch interviews with the big 3, and WillTV for some Will Wright philosophy) and videogame footage (the entire collection of Pure Pwnage , the Red Alert Cutscenes and other bits and pieces). October Preservation SIG Work The whitepaper still needs brainstorming. Anyone who has a thought to add, please do so. I'm still working out how best to update the information lists we have, and might resort to doing it on a proper database rather then the wiki. In addition, if I can get further museums added for the contributions page we'll try and get it launched at some point as a resource point for advocacy! Mailing List Discussions If you've not joined our mailing list , please do so. We've never tried using our forums it seems :) we stick to old-fangled email. September has been pretty dead, apart from Devin posting up a proposed entry for the new IGDA Journal which he requests comments for. It's a worthwhile project, so put your input in while you can. Preservation SIG Blog Updates / Links Note: Have I missed anything? Then email it in. I really should get a "Preservation newsdesk" email setup, there's a lot more I simply don't know about which I keep missing. If anyone wants to help with the blog, you can become a blog editor by contacting us! This is all the updates not included in the previous newsletter (most recent first): * Complete History of Kirby * Gameplayer "The Complete History Of..." * Hybrid IBM/C64 Diskette Found * PDP1 Spacewar! * Infocom's Numbers Graphed, Curmudgeonly * A Short History of Game Manuals * Infocom's All-Time Sales Numbers Revealed * Grand Theft Auto For Intellivision * Nintendo Calendar * 'Lost' Virtual Boy Cache Found in Dubai * Austin GDC UT Archive Material Display * DK source code link * Cloanto Releases Amiga Forever 2008 "RP2" * The Worst Player in Video Game History * Consoles of the '70s * Author of PEDIT5 speaks out! * Vintage Computer Festival East 5.0 * DigitPress Interviews Paul Allen Newell * Update: the Archiving Virtual Worlds video collection * The Classic Console & Arcade Game Show * An Interview With a Collector on Selling His Collection * The Legacy at RPS * Pitfalls of DVD Collecting * Nintendo Licensing * Katsuya Eguchi on Animal Crossing * EA Releases Red Alert for Free Final Thoughts A lot of work needs doing on the whitepaper, and possibly it'd be nice to get more members even just posting on our mailing list - someone did join this month , hooray! Perhaps we can double that figure next month. Also; I will attempt to do some actual journalism regarding the various museums and archives I can visit in the UK, certainly to add the information to the wiki but also interview those involved if possible. We'll see if I can get around to that this month. Thanks all, Andrew Armstrong IGDA Game Preservation SIG Site/Blog editor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Melanie.L.Swalwell at alumni.uts.edu.au Wed Oct 1 19:22:20 2008 From: Melanie.L.Swalwell at alumni.uts.edu.au (Melanie Swalwell) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 09:22:20 +1000 Subject: [game_preservation] games for art's sake - documentation Message-ID: Apologies for x-postings. A new game video collection at the Internet Archive - games for art's sake. We are pleased to announce a new game video collection hosted by the Internet Archive, called "games for art's sake" - http://www.archive.org/details/game-art. This is devoted to providing online documentation of both individual works and exhibitions of game art, art games and related work made "for art's sake". Games constitute a large and important field of contemporary art. How this art will withstand the passage of time remains an open question. This collection is intended to provide a stable and enduring site for the hosting of documentation about games made for art's sake. Artists, curators and others with relevant documentation of game art are encouraged to contribute their files to the collection. To do this, first upload them to the Internet Archive's open source video collection, using the tool at http://www.archive.org/create/. Then email us at and we will moved them into the "games for art's sake" collection. This will be viewable at http://www.archive.org/details/game-art Julian Oliver Helen Stuckey Melanie Swalwell -- UTS CRICOS Provider Code: 00099F DISCLAIMER: This email message and any accompanying attachments may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, do not read, use, disseminate, distribute or copy this message or attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender expressly, and with authority, states them to be the views of the University of Technology Sydney. Before opening any attachments, please check them for viruses and defects. Think. Green. Do. Please consider the environment before printing this email. From andrew at aarmstrong.org Wed Oct 1 19:25:59 2008 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 00:25:59 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] games for art's sake - documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48E40707.6020204@aarmstrong.org> Sounds awesome Melanie. Keep us (or me at least) up to date on the stuff there, I was waiting until it "came online" for the last few months! I'll put this on the blog tomorrow when I have a chance to write up something good. If you need another curator/metadata editor I can lend a hand, although I've really got my hands full I guess updating 5,000 entries with correct data in the current collections (eeek!) Andrew Melanie Swalwell wrote: > Apologies for x-postings. > > A new game video collection at the Internet Archive - games for art's sake. > > We are pleased to announce a new game video collection hosted by the > Internet Archive, called "games for art's sake" - > http://www.archive.org/details/game-art. This is devoted to providing > online documentation of both individual works and exhibitions of game > art, art games and related work made "for art's sake". > > Games constitute a large and important field of contemporary art. How > this art will withstand the passage of time remains an open question. > This collection is intended to provide a stable and enduring site for > the hosting of documentation about games made for art's sake. > > Artists, curators and others with relevant documentation of game art > are encouraged to contribute their files to the collection. To do > this, first upload them to the Internet Archive's open source video > collection, using the tool at http://www.archive.org/create/. Then > email us at and we will moved them into > the "games for art's sake" collection. This will be viewable at > http://www.archive.org/details/game-art > > Julian Oliver > Helen Stuckey > Melanie Swalwell > > From evilcowclone at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 20:50:42 2008 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Captain Commando) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 18:50:42 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] [Monthly SIG Updates] October 2008 In-Reply-To: <48E3B84B.60308@aarmstrong.org> References: <48E3B84B.60308@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: Hey, Andrew! Great job on this update. That's a LOT of material! I recently found a documentary (forwarded to me by my brother) about C64 music. I wish they had a torrent or something, as 2.7GB for the full version is a LOT of bandwidth to leech off a site, so I just opted for the LQ version at 150MB. Regarding that DVD collector article (which I'm still reading): This is why Dewey invented his Decimal system. The libraries use it just fine, so why not a collector? We'll have to see how DigitPress and other guys with thousands of games do theirs. -Devin On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 11:50 AM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: > October has been a month of back-end work for me and others. Someone > started the Whitepaper brainstorm, which I've yet to add mine and Devin's > comments too. We'll hopefully see it updated more this month! Preservation > SIG Updates > > In September the main update will have been the Contributions/Donations > page (I might rename it shortly), encompassing a grand total of 6 (yes, > six!) different organisations who might be willing to accept your old > videogame material, especially developer items. I'm trying to search further > afield (such as Asia, the rest of Europe, and so forth) - if you can > translate any language into English and be a go-between, or know of *any*possible archive or museum outside of the USA and the UK, please please > contact us since this is really something I'd like to complete this century! > > > Secondly, the Whitepaperhas got off to a start - and yes, I've not had the time just yet to update > it with my contributions or Devin's who have sent it to me, but I'll try and > get that done this month. Henry said he'll have a look at it too, so > hopefully we'll get going somewhere. If anyone has any off hand > contributions to make, add them to our mailing list. > > Thirdly, the Memorials project has an entry for Laura_Geneder. > > > On the Internet Archive front, > I've uploaded some interesting bits and pieces, as has the Virtual Worlds > project . See new > interviews (such as > pre-current generation console launch interviews with the big 3, and > WillTVfor some Will Wright philosophy) and videogame > footage (the entire > collection of Pure Pwnage, > the Red Alert Cutscenesand other bits and pieces). > October Preservation SIG Work > > The whitepaper still needs brainstorming. Anyone who has a thought to add, > please do so. I'm still working out how best to update the information lists > we have, and might resort to doing it on a proper database rather then the > wiki. In addition, if I can get further museums added for the contributions > page we'll try and get it launched at some point as a resource point for > advocacy! > Mailing List Discussions > > If you've not joined our mailing list, > please do so. We've never tried using our forums it seems :) we stick to > old-fangled email. September has been pretty dead, apart from Devin posting > up a proposed entry for the new IGDA Journalwhich he requests comments for. It's a worthwhile project, so put your input > in while you can. > Preservation SIG Blog Updates / Links > > Note: Have I missed anything? Then email it in. I really should get a > "Preservation newsdesk" email setup, there's a lot more I simply don't know > about which I keep missing. If anyone wants to help with the blog, you can > become a blog editor by contacting us! This is all the updates not included > in the previous newsletter (most recent first): > > - Complete History of Kirby > - Gameplayer "The Complete History Of..." > - Hybrid IBM/C64 Diskette Found > - PDP1 Spacewar! > - Infocom's Numbers Graphed, Curmudgeonly > - A Short History of Game Manuals > - Infocom's All-Time Sales Numbers Revealed > - Grand Theft Auto For Intellivision > - Nintendo Calendar > - 'Lost' Virtual Boy Cache Found in Dubai > - Austin GDC UT Archive Material Display > - DK source code link > - Cloanto Releases Amiga Forever 2008 "RP2" > - The Worst Player in Video Game History > - Consoles of the '70s > - Author of PEDIT5 speaks out! > - Vintage Computer Festival East 5.0 > - DigitPress Interviews Paul Allen Newell > - Update: the Archiving Virtual Worlds video collection > - The Classic Console & Arcade Game Show > - An Interview With a Collector on Selling His Collection > - The Legacy at RPS > - Pitfalls of DVD Collecting > - Nintendo Licensing > - Katsuya Eguchi on Animal Crossing > - EA Releases Red Alert for Free > > Final > Thoughts > > A lot of work needs doing on the whitepaper, and possibly it'd be nice to > get more members even just posting on our mailing list - someone did join > this month, > hooray! Perhaps we can double that figure next month. > > Also; I will attempt to do some actual journalism regarding the various > museums and archives I can visit in the UK, certainly to add the information > to the wiki but also interview those involved if possible. We'll see if I > can get around to that this month. > > Thanks all, > > Andrew Armstrong > > IGDA Game Preservation SIG Site/Blog editor > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Oct 6 18:59:57 2008 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 23:59:57 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Preservation Whitepaper Brainstorm Progress Message-ID: <48EA986D.2090600@aarmstrong.org> Hey All, Comments are still needed, nay, required for the Whitepaper. I'm forming some of my own opinions, but Devin has provided a wide range of examples (see here: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_paper_brainstorm/Compelling_Examples ) which I finally got online (sorry for the delay!) and might even be updated when Devin finishes some other bits. There is a need for more examples, more points to be raised in the paper ( http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_paper_brainstorm/Core_Concepts ), and even name suggestions - scoffing that the examples ( http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_paper_brainstorm/Title_Suggestions ) are not well thought out privately doesn't help, post here if they are rubbish! Post if they are great too! There is a grand total of 4 people interested in this. I'm not exactly an archivist and even I've put myself down to at least help. There are soem seriously talented and professional people who love videogames here, surely you all have some opinion to add in? Post on the mailing list and I can add your comments to the wiki more permanently. I'm getting other bits of the SIG work done, so this is more a priority for me. I'm happy to edit up anything within a day of posting, and will be pestering everyone to help. There might not even be a dozen people on this list (I don't really know, nor care :) ), but I know there is more then Me, Henry, Zach and Devin who have posted in the past ;) Come on anyone! (everyone!) I'm waiting to be inspired to put my own thoughts down, I'll do so if anyone else is willing to ;) Also; tell anyone else who might be interested. People who run game websites. Videogame developers. Videogame players. Whoever you think might have something good too add is obviously welcome since we don't have a hugely active group here ourselves. Thanks all! Andrew From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Oct 6 20:41:04 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:41:04 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] Preservation Whitepaper Brainstorm Progress In-Reply-To: <48EA986D.2090600@aarmstrong.org> References: <48EA986D.2090600@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <48EAB020.8010904@oldskool.org> Just a few thoughts on what I did not see: The most simple concept of archiving anything is: We have no way to know what is historically significant. Also: History requires context to be relevant. An example: I own the C64/IBM game "Mental Blocks". The item itself has relevance, but takes on a new meaning when you examine how the product was created (see http://trixter.wordpress.com/2008/09/28/the-diskette-that-blew-trixters-mind/ for details on what I mean). Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Hey All, > > Comments are still needed, nay, required for the Whitepaper. I'm forming > some of my own opinions, but Devin has provided a wide range of examples > (see here: > http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_paper_brainstorm/Compelling_Examples > ) which I finally got online (sorry for the delay!) and might even be > updated when Devin finishes some other bits. > > There is a need for more examples, more points to be raised in the paper > ( > http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_paper_brainstorm/Core_Concepts > ), and even name suggestions - scoffing that the examples ( > http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_paper_brainstorm/Title_Suggestions > ) are not well thought out privately doesn't help, post here if they are > rubbish! Post if they are great too! > > There is a grand total of 4 people interested in this. I'm not exactly > an archivist and even I've put myself down to at least help. There are > soem seriously talented and professional people who love videogames > here, surely you all have some opinion to add in? > > Post on the mailing list and I can add your comments to the wiki more > permanently. I'm getting other bits of the SIG work done, so this is > more a priority for me. I'm happy to edit up anything within a day of > posting, and will be pestering everyone to help. There might not even be > a dozen people on this list (I don't really know, nor care :) ), but I > know there is more then Me, Henry, Zach and Devin who have posted in the > past ;) > > Come on anyone! (everyone!) I'm waiting to be inspired to put my own > thoughts down, I'll do so if anyone else is willing to ;) > > Also; tell anyone else who might be interested. People who run game > websites. Videogame developers. Videogame players. Whoever you think > might have something good too add is obviously welcome since we don't > have a hugely active group here ourselves. > > Thanks all! > > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From evilcowclone at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 09:40:30 2008 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Captain Commando) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 07:40:30 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Fwd: UK Offcicially Launches the First Videogame Archive In-Reply-To: <7e04f3bd0810061550r5ff55c4ay2612d2d381478028@mail.gmail.com> References: <7e04f3bd0810061550r5ff55c4ay2612d2d381478028@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Got this from my brother -Devin Monnens ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Aiden Monnens Date: Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 4:50 PM Subject: UK Offcicially Launches the First Videogame Archive To: Captain Commando http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3170366 - THis is great and hopefully they will have accurate history that everyone will agree upon as well as advertisements and commercials. -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lowood at stanford.edu Tue Oct 7 13:02:51 2008 From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 10:02:51 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Fwd: UK Offcicially Launches the First Videogame Archive In-Reply-To: References: <7e04f3bd0810061550r5ff55c4ay2612d2d381478028@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20081007100206.05798f28@stanford.edu> Thanks, Devin. I've been in touch with James Newman, who is one of the founders, and I am hoping he will come to GDC 2009 for the roundtable. Henry At 06:40 AM 10/7/2008, Captain Commando wrote: >Got this from my brother > >-Devin Monnens > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >From: Aiden Monnens <spacerock12 at gmail.com> >Date: Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 4:50 PM >Subject: UK Offcicially Launches the First Videogame Archive >To: Captain Commando <evilcowclone at gmail.com> > > >http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3170366 - THis is great and >hopefully they will have accurate history that everyone will agree >upon as well as advertisements and commercials. > > > >-- >The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > >"Until next time..." >Captain Commando >_______________________________________________ >game_preservation mailing list >game_preservation at igda.org >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation Henry Lowood, Ph.D. Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; Film & Media Collections HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall Stanford University Libraries Stanford CA 94305-6004 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Tue Oct 7 15:22:07 2008 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 20:22:07 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Preservation Whitepaper Brainstorm Progress In-Reply-To: <48EAB020.8010904@oldskool.org> References: <48EA986D.2090600@aarmstrong.org> <48EAB020.8010904@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48EBB6DF.3060704@aarmstrong.org> I'll add these points right away (well, right away when I read this email :) ). Do you want to be listed as a contributor who might be interested in detailing or writing more in the final paper or editing or proofreading it? Thanks a lot regardless, good points. Andrew Jim Leonard wrote: > Just a few thoughts on what I did not see: > > The most simple concept of archiving anything is: We have no way to > know what is historically significant. > > Also: History requires context to be relevant. An example: I own > the C64/IBM game "Mental Blocks". The item itself has relevance, but > takes on a new meaning when you examine how the product was created > (see > http://trixter.wordpress.com/2008/09/28/the-diskette-that-blew-trixters-mind/ > for details on what I mean). > > Andrew Armstrong wrote: >> Hey All, >> >> Comments are still needed, nay, required for the Whitepaper. I'm >> forming some of my own opinions, but Devin has provided a wide range >> of examples (see here: >> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_paper_brainstorm/Compelling_Examples >> ) which I finally got online (sorry for the delay!) and might even be >> updated when Devin finishes some other bits. >> >> There is a need for more examples, more points to be raised in the >> paper ( >> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_paper_brainstorm/Core_Concepts >> ), and even name suggestions - scoffing that the examples ( >> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_paper_brainstorm/Title_Suggestions >> ) are not well thought out privately doesn't help, post here if they >> are rubbish! Post if they are great too! >> >> There is a grand total of 4 people interested in this. I'm not >> exactly an archivist and even I've put myself down to at least help. >> There are soem seriously talented and professional people who love >> videogames here, surely you all have some opinion to add in? >> >> Post on the mailing list and I can add your comments to the wiki more >> permanently. I'm getting other bits of the SIG work done, so this is >> more a priority for me. I'm happy to edit up anything within a day of >> posting, and will be pestering everyone to help. There might not even >> be a dozen people on this list (I don't really know, nor care :) ), >> but I know there is more then Me, Henry, Zach and Devin who have >> posted in the past ;) >> >> Come on anyone! (everyone!) I'm waiting to be inspired to put my own >> thoughts down, I'll do so if anyone else is willing to ;) >> >> Also; tell anyone else who might be interested. People who run game >> websites. Videogame developers. Videogame players. Whoever you think >> might have something good too add is obviously welcome since we don't >> have a hugely active group here ourselves. >> >> Thanks all! >> >> Andrew >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> > From andrew at aarmstrong.org Tue Oct 7 15:43:50 2008 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 20:43:50 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Fwd: UK Offcicially Launches the First Videogame Archive In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20081007100206.05798f28@stanford.edu> References: <7e04f3bd0810061550r5ff55c4ay2612d2d381478028@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20081007100206.05798f28@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <48EBBBF6.2040300@aarmstrong.org> Yeah, this was mentioned a while back (on the blog and here) and they've finally released some more news about it, great. I'll be at GameCity this year, I'll try and get more information or an interview, or even possibly visit the archive itself at some point. They were willing to be added to the contributions/donations list too, which is cool :D If there is a bigger UK presence at the GDC roundtables next year, awesome! (I've no idea if I'll be there personally, but there'd not be many Europeans there to start with :) ). Andrew Henry Lowood wrote: > Thanks, Devin. I've been in touch with James Newman, who is one of > the founders, and I am hoping he will come to GDC 2009 for the roundtable. > > Henry > > At 06:40 AM 10/7/2008, Captain Commando wrote: >> Got this from my brother >> >> -Devin Monnens >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: *Aiden Monnens* > > >> Date: Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 4:50 PM >> Subject: UK Offcicially Launches the First Videogame Archive >> To: Captain Commando > > >> >> >> http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3170366 - THis is great and >> hopefully they will have accurate history that everyone will agree >> upon as well as advertisements and commercials. >> >> >> >> -- >> The sleep of Reason produces monsters. >> >> "Until next time..." >> Captain Commando >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > Henry Lowood, Ph.D. > Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; > Film & Media Collections > HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall > Stanford University Libraries > Stanford CA 94305-6004 > 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Oct 7 18:30:04 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:30:04 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] Preservation Whitepaper Brainstorm Progress In-Reply-To: <48EBB6DF.3060704@aarmstrong.org> References: <48EA986D.2090600@aarmstrong.org> <48EAB020.8010904@oldskool.org> <48EBB6DF.3060704@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <48EBE2EC.2060402@oldskool.org> I don't have the time, unfortunately, but as long as those points are included I'm cool :-) Andrew Armstrong wrote: > I'll add these points right away (well, right away when I read this > email :) ). > > Do you want to be listed as a contributor who might be interested in > detailing or writing more in the final paper or editing or proofreading it? > > Thanks a lot regardless, good points. > > Andrew > > Jim Leonard wrote: >> Just a few thoughts on what I did not see: >> >> The most simple concept of archiving anything is: We have no way to >> know what is historically significant. >> >> Also: History requires context to be relevant. An example: I own >> the C64/IBM game "Mental Blocks". The item itself has relevance, but >> takes on a new meaning when you examine how the product was created >> (see >> http://trixter.wordpress.com/2008/09/28/the-diskette-that-blew-trixters-mind/ >> for details on what I mean). >> >> Andrew Armstrong wrote: >>> Hey All, >>> >>> Comments are still needed, nay, required for the Whitepaper. I'm >>> forming some of my own opinions, but Devin has provided a wide range >>> of examples (see here: >>> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_paper_brainstorm/Compelling_Examples >>> ) which I finally got online (sorry for the delay!) and might even be >>> updated when Devin finishes some other bits. >>> >>> There is a need for more examples, more points to be raised in the >>> paper ( >>> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_paper_brainstorm/Core_Concepts >>> ), and even name suggestions - scoffing that the examples ( >>> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_paper_brainstorm/Title_Suggestions >>> ) are not well thought out privately doesn't help, post here if they >>> are rubbish! Post if they are great too! >>> >>> There is a grand total of 4 people interested in this. I'm not >>> exactly an archivist and even I've put myself down to at least help. >>> There are soem seriously talented and professional people who love >>> videogames here, surely you all have some opinion to add in? >>> >>> Post on the mailing list and I can add your comments to the wiki more >>> permanently. I'm getting other bits of the SIG work done, so this is >>> more a priority for me. I'm happy to edit up anything within a day of >>> posting, and will be pestering everyone to help. There might not even >>> be a dozen people on this list (I don't really know, nor care :) ), >>> but I know there is more then Me, Henry, Zach and Devin who have >>> posted in the past ;) >>> >>> Come on anyone! (everyone!) I'm waiting to be inspired to put my own >>> thoughts down, I'll do so if anyone else is willing to ;) >>> >>> Also; tell anyone else who might be interested. People who run game >>> websites. Videogame developers. Videogame players. Whoever you think >>> might have something good too add is obviously welcome since we don't >>> have a hugely active group here ourselves. >>> >>> Thanks all! >>> >>> Andrew >>> _______________________________________________ >>> game_preservation mailing list >>> game_preservation at igda.org >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From Melanie.L.Swalwell at alumni.uts.edu.au Tue Oct 7 18:54:58 2008 From: Melanie.L.Swalwell at alumni.uts.edu.au (Melanie Swalwell) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:54:58 +1100 Subject: [game_preservation] Preservation Whitepaper Brainstorm Progress Message-ID: Can someone remind me who the intended audience is for the White Paper? I feel like I must have missed this somehow along the way, and if I think this, then it's going to be useful to quickly reprise it for the newer list members who continue to join steadily (rather than berating us for not contributing). For those who are interested, we are currently 84 members strong :) your friendly list moderator, Melanie -- UTS CRICOS Provider Code: 00099F DISCLAIMER: This email message and any accompanying attachments may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, do not read, use, disseminate, distribute or copy this message or attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender expressly, and with authority, states them to be the views of the University of Technology Sydney. Before opening any attachments, please check them for viruses and defects. Think. Green. Do. Please consider the environment before printing this email. From andrew at aarmstrong.org Tue Oct 7 19:16:49 2008 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 00:16:49 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Preservation Whitepaper Brainstorm Progress In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48EBEDE1.9000105@aarmstrong.org> As far as I'm aware It's intended for reference regarding the need for preserving materials. Basically, to show anyone who needs to know some valid arguments or reasons for them archiving material. As we all know this stuff already, so it's entirely intended for an outside audience - companies, individuals, museums, possible sources of funding, and so forth. It was requested at the GDC roundtables, basically as an idea by Henry for showing all the developers and companies who don't know the issues or don't care enough. At least that's as far as I remember! I also know some new people are joining (although not many make themselves known :) ), 84 is pretty neat! (I wonder how many have posted once :) ). However I did post about this in the 2 previous monthly newsletters, one of which was 7 days ago :) I'm hopefully poking all the old time members, since this has been online for over 2 months now, so any newcomers feel free to contribute and ask questions - I'll put forward an answer and add material to the wiki, no worries on how new you are. You've also not missed anything, this 5 post thread is the most discussion on it we've had so far. Andrew Melanie Swalwell wrote: > Can someone remind me who the intended audience is for the White Paper? I feel like I must have missed this somehow along the way, and if I think this, then it's going to be useful to quickly reprise it for the newer list members who continue to join steadily (rather than berating us for not contributing). For those who are interested, we are currently 84 members strong :) > > your friendly list moderator, > > Melanie > > From evilcowclone at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 19:54:20 2008 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Captain Commando) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:54:20 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Preservation Whitepaper Brainstorm Progress In-Reply-To: <48EBE2EC.2060402@oldskool.org> References: <48EA986D.2090600@aarmstrong.org> <48EAB020.8010904@oldskool.org> <48EBB6DF.3060704@aarmstrong.org> <48EBE2EC.2060402@oldskool.org> Message-ID: Yeah, I like those adages. I was actually thinking of making a 'Sun Tzu's The Art of Preservation' with some simple statements we can relate to. Maybe I'll send the draft out if there's a lot of interest! I also bear in mind a bit of humbleness about preservation, knowing that there are some things that are impossible and other things that will get lost over the years, even if they get preserved now. I was compiling a list of sources as examples (one of which is the mockumentary intro to The Big Lebowski DVD). It's something we can chuckle at, but also learn from :) -Devin Monnens On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 4:30 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > I don't have the time, unfortunately, but as long as those points are > included I'm cool :-) > > > Andrew Armstrong wrote: > >> I'll add these points right away (well, right away when I read this email >> :) ). >> >> Do you want to be listed as a contributor who might be interested in >> detailing or writing more in the final paper or editing or proofreading it? >> >> Thanks a lot regardless, good points. >> >> Andrew >> >> Jim Leonard wrote: >> >>> Just a few thoughts on what I did not see: >>> >>> The most simple concept of archiving anything is: We have no way to know >>> what is historically significant. >>> >>> Also: History requires context to be relevant. An example: I own the >>> C64/IBM game "Mental Blocks". The item itself has relevance, but takes on a >>> new meaning when you examine how the product was created (see >>> http://trixter.wordpress.com/2008/09/28/the-diskette-that-blew-trixters-mind/for details on what I mean). >>> >>> Andrew Armstrong wrote: >>> >>>> Hey All, >>>> >>>> Comments are still needed, nay, required for the Whitepaper. I'm forming >>>> some of my own opinions, but Devin has provided a wide range of examples >>>> (see here: >>>> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_paper_brainstorm/Compelling_Examples) which I finally got online (sorry for the delay!) and might even be >>>> updated when Devin finishes some other bits. >>>> >>>> There is a need for more examples, more points to be raised in the paper >>>> ( >>>> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_paper_brainstorm/Core_Concepts), and even name suggestions - scoffing that the examples ( >>>> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_paper_brainstorm/Title_Suggestions) are not well thought out privately doesn't help, post here if they are >>>> rubbish! Post if they are great too! >>>> >>>> There is a grand total of 4 people interested in this. I'm not exactly >>>> an archivist and even I've put myself down to at least help. There are soem >>>> seriously talented and professional people who love videogames here, surely >>>> you all have some opinion to add in? >>>> >>>> Post on the mailing list and I can add your comments to the wiki more >>>> permanently. I'm getting other bits of the SIG work done, so this is more a >>>> priority for me. I'm happy to edit up anything within a day of posting, and >>>> will be pestering everyone to help. There might not even be a dozen people >>>> on this list (I don't really know, nor care :) ), but I know there is more >>>> then Me, Henry, Zach and Devin who have posted in the past ;) >>>> >>>> Come on anyone! (everyone!) I'm waiting to be inspired to put my own >>>> thoughts down, I'll do so if anyone else is willing to ;) >>>> >>>> Also; tell anyone else who might be interested. People who run game >>>> websites. Videogame developers. Videogame players. Whoever you think might >>>> have something good too add is obviously welcome since we don't have a >>>> hugely active group here ourselves. >>>> >>>> Thanks all! >>>> >>>> Andrew >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> game_preservation mailing list >>>> game_preservation at igda.org >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> >> > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lowood at stanford.edu Tue Oct 7 20:09:30 2008 From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:09:30 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Preservation Whitepaper Brainstorm Progress In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20081007170655.05899198@stanford.edu> Hi Melanie, The first audience is the IGDA membership, so the White Paper must make an effective case to the industry and to game developers. Of course, we can speak to other groups, as well, ranging from players to collectors to academics and cultural institutions. Also, the first White Paper, as we sort of roughly framed it, would make the case for the importance of preservation, and the needs. Optimistically perhaps, we hoped to have it ready for GDC 2009. Then we thought to follow on for GDC 2010, based on the several projects that have started up in the past year, to do a second Paper on best practices. Henry At 03:54 PM 10/7/2008, Melanie Swalwell wrote: >Can someone remind me who the intended audience is for the White >Paper? I feel like I must have missed this somehow along the way, >and if I think this, then it's going to be useful to quickly reprise >it for the newer list members who continue to join steadily (rather >than berating us for not contributing). For those who are >interested, we are currently 84 members strong :) > >your friendly list moderator, > >Melanie > >-- >UTS CRICOS Provider Code: 00099F >DISCLAIMER: This email message and any accompanying attachments may contain >confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, do not >read, use, disseminate, distribute or copy this message or attachments. If >you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately >and delete this message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the >individual sender, except where the sender expressly, and with authority, >states them to be the views of the University of Technology Sydney. Before >opening any attachments, please check them for viruses and defects. > >Think. Green. Do. > >Please consider the environment before printing this email. >_______________________________________________ >game_preservation mailing list >game_preservation at igda.org >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation Henry Lowood, Ph.D. Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; Film & Media Collections HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall Stanford University Libraries Stanford CA 94305-6004 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Fri Oct 10 08:25:59 2008 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:25:59 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Preservation Whitepaper Brainstorm Progress In-Reply-To: References: <48EA986D.2090600@aarmstrong.org> <48EAB020.8010904@oldskool.org> <48EBB6DF.3060704@aarmstrong.org> <48EBE2EC.2060402@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48EF49D7.1090009@aarmstrong.org> Regarding the whitepaper, we need some concrete examples of videogame loses we've already had. I know there are some collectors on here, so this should be easy; a list of videogames which were produced, but are now lost (all copies gone, masters deleted, whatever), and unreleased games which were lost and will never be recovered (betas, alphas, whatever). Doesn't have to be a long one, I'm all for brevity. However, I'm sure there is a ton, especially from pre-CD days, and from companies which have become defunct (specific examples of companies which lost loads of material would be good too!). I've tried Google, but there is no specific pages answering to my queries ("lost videogames" comes up with...the Lost videogame, thanks Google! Nothing on Wikipedia specifically either). There is no site I've got bookmarked or RSSed which hosts such a list as far as I know, apart from I've not checked the Playstation archive which lists a few incomplete games/recovered games - obviously actually something else to list too. Also; while there are of course a long list of games which are of limited availability now (ie; no company or archive holds onto them, only collectors, and even then maybe only a few copies of the game, making it generally unplayable by historians), that's always going to be a problem until the archives really are well funded and the size of what film and TV archives are today, so probably are not worth noting just yet. Thanks if anyone knows any! Andrew From evilcowclone at gmail.com Fri Oct 10 11:16:32 2008 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Captain Commando) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:16:32 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Preservation Whitepaper Brainstorm Progress In-Reply-To: <48EF49D7.1090009@aarmstrong.org> References: <48EA986D.2090600@aarmstrong.org> <48EAB020.8010904@oldskool.org> <48EBB6DF.3060704@aarmstrong.org> <48EBE2EC.2060402@oldskool.org> <48EF49D7.1090009@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: The only thing I know off the top of my head (and this was mentioned in the brainstorm material I sent) is the art assets (and other materials) Konami lost during the Hanshin-Awaji Earthquake in 1995. That's why they haven't produced high-resolution images of the early Castlevania game art - the originals just don't exist for them to do it. I don't have a list of everything they lost, but I know the original Castlevania art was unfortunately a part of that. In addition, there's plenty other cases of rare finds like this just mysteriously showing up in places (though it's not as good an example as the Castlevania one). A few years ago, the guy who used to run the Metroid Database picked up the official Super Metroid developer's map off of e-bay. Now shouldn't Nintendo have taken better care of something that was from such a historically important game? Looks like he'll have to ensure it's well-preserved now as its new custodian! I've had personal losses of data and games. In most of the disk-based cases, it hasn't been total devastation, as the games are still available on the web, but a couple of the Amiga games I've got actually haven't appeared in rom form on the web (The Logic Master, actually :P). This one is actually in the search list for the software preservation group (d'oh!). Thankfully, I know a person who was involved in their development, so I could see if she's got a copy somewhere... -Devin Monnens On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 6:25 AM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Regarding the whitepaper, we need some concrete examples of videogame loses > we've already had. I know there are some collectors on here, so this should > be easy; a list of videogames which were produced, but are now lost (all > copies gone, masters deleted, whatever), and unreleased games which were > lost and will never be recovered (betas, alphas, whatever). > > Doesn't have to be a long one, I'm all for brevity. > > However, I'm sure there is a ton, especially from pre-CD days, and from > companies which have become defunct (specific examples of companies which > lost loads of material would be good too!). > > I've tried Google, but there is no specific pages answering to my queries > ("lost videogames" comes up with...the Lost videogame, thanks Google! > Nothing on Wikipedia specifically either). There is no site I've got > bookmarked or RSSed which hosts such a list as far as I know, apart from > I've not checked the Playstation archive which lists a few incomplete > games/recovered games - obviously actually something else to list too. > > Also; while there are of course a long list of games which are of limited > availability now (ie; no company or archive holds onto them, only > collectors, and even then maybe only a few copies of the game, making it > generally unplayable by historians), that's always going to be a problem > until the archives really are well funded and the size of what film and TV > archives are today, so probably are not worth noting just yet. > > Thanks if anyone knows any! > > > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Oct 10 21:09:35 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 20:09:35 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] Preservation Whitepaper Brainstorm Progress In-Reply-To: <48EF49D7.1090009@aarmstrong.org> References: <48EA986D.2090600@aarmstrong.org> <48EAB020.8010904@oldskool.org> <48EBB6DF.3060704@aarmstrong.org> <48EBE2EC.2060402@oldskool.org> <48EF49D7.1090009@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <48EFFCCF.8030200@oldskool.org> Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Regarding the whitepaper, we need some concrete examples of videogame > loses we've already had. I know there are some collectors on here, so > this should be easy; a list of videogames which were produced, but are > now lost (all copies gone, masters deleted, whatever), and unreleased > games which were lost and will never be recovered (betas, alphas, > whatever). > > Doesn't have to be a long one, I'm all for brevity. Some MMOs have come and gone with hardly any record of what the game looked like, let alone what gameplay was like (ie. recorded video). The PCjr version of MULE was produced in 4-digit quantities and none are known to exist in the wild (only a photo of a diskette). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Oct 10 21:14:04 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 20:14:04 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] Preservation Whitepaper Brainstorm Progress In-Reply-To: References: <48EA986D.2090600@aarmstrong.org> <48EAB020.8010904@oldskool.org> <48EBB6DF.3060704@aarmstrong.org> <48EBE2EC.2060402@oldskool.org> <48EF49D7.1090009@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <48EFFDDC.2000002@oldskool.org> Captain Commando wrote: > a couple of the Amiga games I've got actually > haven't appeared in rom form on the web (The Logic Master, actually :P). The great majority of my involvement in creating the abandonware movement in the mid 1990s was to this end. Probably shouldn't say this out loud (then-IDSA has come after me before) but about 80% of the bootable PC diskette images (ie. not a .com/.exe or DOS-formatted diskette, but rather a disk you stick in and boot the computer with) you can grab on the 'net is my doing. Thanks to DMCA exceptions, I continue this work today a bit more legally. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sat Oct 11 08:56:44 2008 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:56:44 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Preservation Whitepaper Brainstorm Progress In-Reply-To: <48EFFCCF.8030200@oldskool.org> References: <48EA986D.2090600@aarmstrong.org> <48EAB020.8010904@oldskool.org> <48EBB6DF.3060704@aarmstrong.org> <48EBE2EC.2060402@oldskool.org> <48EF49D7.1090009@aarmstrong.org> <48EFFCCF.8030200@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48F0A28C.2040306@aarmstrong.org> Thanks a lot Jim and Devin! I'll add those examples later - the Virtual Worlds/MMO thing is a major one, since even if the software now exists it'd be nigh on impossible to "boot" into a state where you can get any video or information from in-game. Andrew Jim Leonard wrote: > Andrew Armstrong wrote: >> Regarding the whitepaper, we need some concrete examples of videogame >> loses we've already had. I know there are some collectors on here, so >> this should be easy; a list of videogames which were produced, but >> are now lost (all copies gone, masters deleted, whatever), and >> unreleased games which were lost and will never be recovered (betas, >> alphas, whatever). >> >> Doesn't have to be a long one, I'm all for brevity. > > Some MMOs have come and gone with hardly any record of what the game > looked like, let alone what gameplay was like (ie. recorded video). > > The PCjr version of MULE was produced in 4-digit quantities and none > are known to exist in the wild (only a photo of a diskette). From evilcowclone at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 17:41:12 2008 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Captain Commando) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 15:41:12 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I think OldVersion.com was listed on the resource list awhile back, but I'm going to pull it up again. This site archives old versions of computer software and utilities like Flash and Winamp. Similarly, I think it would be useful to have an archive of game patches. It's a bit difficult to locate patches for some of my older games, but it can also be useful and historically significant to run older patches of computer games. http://www.oldversion.com/ -Devin Monnens -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sun Oct 12 18:27:58 2008 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:27:58 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F279EE.5050704@aarmstrong.org> Trust me, if I could ever get a budget to do that myself, I'd do it up in a flash (hell, start with an FTP and go from there). Maybe the IA could help if we were serious about it, they host some software after all. I myself keep for all my PC games (although they don't date back "forever", heh), all patches I download. Finding them again is a pain - sometimes hours of pain. It's a hefty amount of gigabytes. Excellent idea, if someone could do it sometime I'd be much impressed :) - while some game file hosting places do recent patches quite well (on the providing end) for distribution, and publishers usually provide a mirror themselves, older games get next to no love. I'll note this for the links list at some point in any case (still on my todo list to sort out :) ). Andrew Captain Commando wrote: > I think OldVersion.com was listed on the resource list awhile back, > but I'm going to pull it up again. This site archives old versions of > computer software and utilities like Flash and Winamp. Similarly, I > think it would be useful to have an archive of game patches. It's a > bit difficult to locate patches for some of my older games, but it can > also be useful and historically significant to run older patches of > computer games. > > http://www.oldversion.com/ > > -Devin Monnens > > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 18:46:04 2008 From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 18:46:04 -0400 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> There is such an archive: http://www.patches-scrolls.de/ Stuart From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Captain Commando Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 5:41 PM To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs I think OldVersion.com was listed on the resource list awhile back, but I'm going to pull it up again. This site archives old versions of computer software and utilities like Flash and Winamp. Similarly, I think it would be useful to have an archive of game patches. It's a bit difficult to locate patches for some of my older games, but it can also be useful and historically significant to run older patches of computer games. http://www.oldversion.com/ -Devin Monnens -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sun Oct 12 18:50:55 2008 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:50:55 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> Ooh, awesome. I honestly have never seen that before, despite sometimes searching for patches for a fair while. Files seem to be hosted on http://dlh.net/ , interesting. The site only has 383 games with patch pages, I wonder how many patches they have total, hard to see from the A-Z listings (although it's great to see a news archive going back to 1995, wow!) Anyone got any more of these sites, please post them :) Andrew Stuart Feldhamer wrote: > > There is such an archive: > > > > http://www.patches-scrolls.de/ > > > > Stuart > > > > *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org > [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Captain > Commando > *Sent:* Sunday, October 12, 2008 5:41 PM > *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG > *Subject:* [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs > > > > I think OldVersion.com was listed on the resource list awhile back, > but I'm going to pull it up again. This site archives old versions of > computer software and utilities like Flash and Winamp. Similarly, I > think it would be useful to have an archive of game patches. It's a > bit difficult to locate patches for some of my older games, but it can > also be useful and historically significant to run older patches of > computer games. > > > > http://www.oldversion.com/ > > > -Devin Monnens > > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 18:55:59 2008 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Captain Commando) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 16:55:59 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: Well, this is a start. It doesn't contain a WIDE range of games, mostly popular ones (but also some odd ones like Microprose's Magic the Gathering). Missing a few like Ultima, Freespace, and X-Wing vs Tie Fighter that I've had to google for. In addition, it only includes the most recent patches. The patch collection I am talking about would have as many patch versions as possible (hopefully with information on what got patched with each version). If you want to preserve PC games, you really need to keep patches in mind. I wouldn't be able to give you a lot of reasons for why older patches would be incredibly important (unless newer patches had certain bugs that weren't manifest in older patches on some hardware), but again, you never know what's going to be important thirty years from now. -Devin On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Ooh, awesome. I honestly have never seen that before, despite sometimes > searching for patches for a fair while. Files seem to be hosted on > http://dlh.net/ , interesting. > > The site only has 383 games with patch pages, I wonder how many patches > they have total, hard to see from the A-Z listings (although it's great to > see a news archive going back to 1995, wow!) > > Anyone got any more of these sites, please post them :) > > Andrew > > Stuart Feldhamer wrote: > > There is such an archive: > > > > http://www.patches-scrolls.de/ > > > > Stuart > > > > *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [ > mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] > *On Behalf Of *Captain Commando > *Sent:* Sunday, October 12, 2008 5:41 PM > *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG > *Subject:* [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs > > > > I think OldVersion.com was listed on the resource list awhile back, but I'm > going to pull it up again. This site archives old versions of computer > software and utilities like Flash and Winamp. Similarly, I think it would be > useful to have an archive of game patches. It's a bit difficult to locate > patches for some of my older games, but it can also be useful and > historically significant to run older patches of computer games. > > > > http://www.oldversion.com/ > > > -Devin Monnens > > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 12 18:59:30 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 17:59:30 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48F28152.5000305@oldskool.org> Captain Commando wrote: > I think OldVersion.com was listed on the resource list awhile back, but > I'm going to pull it up again. This site archives old versions of > computer software and utilities like Flash and Winamp. Similarly, I > think it would be useful to have an archive of game patches. It's a bit > difficult to locate patches for some of my older games, but it can also > be useful and historically significant to run older patches of computer > games. What about The Patches Scrolls? (http://www.patches-scrolls.de/) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sun Oct 12 19:05:38 2008 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 00:05:38 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <48F282C2.1000006@aarmstrong.org> Captain Commando wrote: > I wouldn't be able to give you a lot of reasons for why older patches > would be incredibly important I would, there are a few reasons I've come across for necessity: - The ability to load save games and replay files from specific game versions! (I'm surprised you forgot this - this is as old as Doom! :) ). This, I think, is outright the most important reason, and applies to a great many genres and games (almost anything with a savegame system to be honest, many game devs break it that way). - Things removed or overwrote in later patches - perhaps a specific map file, or unit portrait, or graphic. A specific example here: A unpatched Neverwinter Nights (or low patched version) has some original portraits which were, essentially, photoshops of celebrities. In addition, the med kit has a red cross on it. Both were patched out with alternatives (although the patch process does, admittedly, load the "patch files first" and doesn't remove the originals I think, which is awesome actually). If you couldn't get the early patches, you'd have little way to get information on these two things (ie; when they were patched out). There are other games which patched out things too, for an amazing amount of reasons. - Patches which had flaws - like adding SecureRom, or breaking things - like you said mainly - but more that a patch might remove functionality or cause problems, an earlier patch might be better. - Patches that require the previous patch installed first. I'm sure this patch site does that, but obviously, without knowing specifics on the game (ie; owning it) you can't be sure that a patch doesn't require a specific previous version to install. - Finally, knowing how things changed over time. It's a bit drastic looking at the difference between a games original release and, say, patch number 10. What changed, when, and at what release date might be important for the games history - especially MMO histories, or community histories (competitive play and so forth). An archive of all patches would be the best possible way of doing it of course :) Andrew From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 12 19:05:49 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 18:05:49 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <48F282CD.7070405@oldskool.org> There's this: ftp://ftp.gamers.org/pub/archives/uwp-uml/ There's a Romulus archive inside it: ftp://ftp.gamers.org/pub/archives/uwp-uml/romulus/ *THAT* has some pretty juicy (if old) stuff. Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Ooh, awesome. I honestly have never seen that before, despite sometimes > searching for patches for a fair while. Files seem to be hosted on > http://dlh.net/ , interesting. > > The site only has 383 games with patch pages, I wonder how many patches > they have total, hard to see from the A-Z listings (although it's great > to see a news archive going back to 1995, wow!) > > Anyone got any more of these sites, please post them :) > > Andrew > > Stuart Feldhamer wrote: >> >> There is such an archive: >> >> >> >> http://www.patches-scrolls.de/ >> >> >> >> Stuart >> >> >> >> *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org >> [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Captain >> Commando >> *Sent:* Sunday, October 12, 2008 5:41 PM >> *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG >> *Subject:* [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs >> >> >> >> I think OldVersion.com was listed on the resource list awhile back, >> but I'm going to pull it up again. This site archives old versions of >> computer software and utilities like Flash and Winamp. Similarly, I >> think it would be useful to have an archive of game patches. It's a >> bit difficult to locate patches for some of my older games, but it can >> also be useful and historically significant to run older patches of >> computer games. >> >> >> >> http://www.oldversion.com/ >> >> >> -Devin Monnens >> >> >> -- >> The sleep of Reason produces monsters. >> >> "Until next time..." >> Captain Commando >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 12 19:13:38 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 18:13:38 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <48F284A2.20805@oldskool.org> Adding to this, I have a complete dump of Microprose's BBS/FTP which has patches for pretty much everything they made. However, I'm just one person; hopefully there is someplace someone can recommend I upload it... Captain Commando wrote: > Well, this is a start. It doesn't contain a WIDE range of games, mostly > popular ones (but also some odd ones like Microprose's Magic the > Gathering). Missing a few like Ultima, Freespace, and X-Wing vs Tie > Fighter that I've had to google for. In addition, it only includes the > most recent patches. The patch collection I am talking about would have > as many patch versions as possible (hopefully with information on what > got patched with each version). If you want to preserve PC games, you > really need to keep patches in mind. I wouldn't be able to give you a > lot of reasons for why older patches would be incredibly important > (unless newer patches had certain bugs that weren't manifest in older > patches on some hardware), but again, you never know what's going to be > important thirty years from now. > > -Devin > > On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Andrew Armstrong > wrote: > > Ooh, awesome. I honestly have never seen that before, despite > sometimes searching for patches for a fair while. Files seem to be > hosted on http://dlh.net/ , interesting. > > The site only has 383 games with patch pages, I wonder how many > patches they have total, hard to see from the A-Z listings (although > it's great to see a news archive going back to 1995, wow!) > > Anyone got any more of these sites, please post them :) > > Andrew > > Stuart Feldhamer wrote: >> >> There is such an archive: >> >> >> >> http://www.patches-scrolls.de/ >> >> >> >> Stuart >> >> >> >> *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org >> >> [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Captain >> Commando >> *Sent:* Sunday, October 12, 2008 5:41 PM >> *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG >> *Subject:* [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs >> >> >> >> I think OldVersion.com was listed on the resource list awhile >> back, but I'm going to pull it up again. This site archives old >> versions of computer software and utilities like Flash and Winamp. >> Similarly, I think it would be useful to have an archive of game >> patches. It's a bit difficult to locate patches for some of my >> older games, but it can also be useful and historically >> significant to run older patches of computer games. >> >> >> >> http://www.oldversion.com/ >> >> >> -Devin Monnens >> >> >> -- >> The sleep of Reason produces monsters. >> >> "Until next time..." >> Captain Commando >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ game_preservation >> mailing list game_preservation at igda.org >> >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sun Oct 12 19:18:42 2008 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 00:18:42 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: <48F284A2.20805@oldskool.org> References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> <48F284A2.20805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48F285D2.5060602@aarmstrong.org> Possibly the Internet Archive perhaps (although searching through it is a chore, a dedicated collection might help). They've got a software collection, no doubt you could get permission to upload the files: http://www.archive.org/details/software (the CLASP collection is a dark-archive, but the main software page seems to be downloadable files). At least in that respect it'd be freely available and not likely to disappear based on bandwidth concerns or anything :) I'll note down the other suggestions ready for an update to our links page, btw. The FTP you suggested I couldn't get on to check (5 users max) so I'll check it out later. Andrew Jim Leonard wrote: > Adding to this, I have a complete dump of Microprose's BBS/FTP which > has patches for pretty much everything they made. However, I'm just > one person; hopefully there is someplace someone can recommend I > upload it... > > Captain Commando wrote: >> Well, this is a start. It doesn't contain a WIDE range of games, >> mostly popular ones (but also some odd ones like Microprose's Magic >> the Gathering). Missing a few like Ultima, Freespace, and X-Wing vs >> Tie Fighter that I've had to google for. In addition, it only >> includes the most recent patches. The patch collection I am talking >> about would have as many patch versions as possible (hopefully with >> information on what got patched with each version). If you want to >> preserve PC games, you really need to keep patches in mind. I >> wouldn't be able to give you a lot of reasons for why older patches >> would be incredibly important (unless newer patches had certain bugs >> that weren't manifest in older patches on some hardware), but again, >> you never know what's going to be important thirty years from now. >> >> -Devin >> >> On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Andrew Armstrong >> > wrote: >> >> Ooh, awesome. I honestly have never seen that before, despite >> sometimes searching for patches for a fair while. Files seem to be >> hosted on http://dlh.net/ , interesting. >> >> The site only has 383 games with patch pages, I wonder how many >> patches they have total, hard to see from the A-Z listings (although >> it's great to see a news archive going back to 1995, wow!) >> >> Anyone got any more of these sites, please post them :) >> >> Andrew >> >> Stuart Feldhamer wrote: >>> >>> There is such an archive: >>> >>> >>> http://www.patches-scrolls.de/ >>> >>> >>> Stuart >>> >>> >>> *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org >>> >>> [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Captain >>> Commando >>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 12, 2008 5:41 PM >>> *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG >>> *Subject:* [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs >>> >>> >>> I think OldVersion.com was listed on the resource list awhile >>> back, but I'm going to pull it up again. This site archives old >>> versions of computer software and utilities like Flash and Winamp. >>> Similarly, I think it would be useful to have an archive of game >>> patches. It's a bit difficult to locate patches for some of my >>> older games, but it can also be useful and historically >>> significant to run older patches of computer games. >>> >>> >>> http://www.oldversion.com/ >>> >>> >>> -Devin Monnens >>> >>> >>> -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. >>> >>> "Until next time..." >>> Captain Commando >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ game_preservation >>> mailing list game_preservation at igda.org >>> >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> >> >> >> >> -- >> The sleep of Reason produces monsters. >> >> "Until next time..." >> Captain Commando >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 19:33:58 2008 From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:33:58 -0400 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: <48F282C2.1000006@aarmstrong.org> References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> <48F282C2.1000006@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <48f28967.0e87460a.5aae.ffffdee3@mx.google.com> Well the guy from the Patches Scrolls has been asking for contributions for a while now. I think it's a one man operation. Imagine what he or someone else could accomplish with some funding. Stuart > -----Original Message----- > From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_preservation- > bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Armstrong > Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 7:06 PM > To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG > Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs > > Captain Commando wrote: > > I wouldn't be able to give you a lot of reasons for why older patches > > would be incredibly important > I would, there are a few reasons I've come across for necessity: > > - The ability to load save games and replay files from specific game > versions! (I'm surprised you forgot this - this is as old as Doom! :) > ). > This, I think, is outright the most important reason, and applies to a > great many genres and games (almost anything with a savegame system to > be honest, many game devs break it that way). > > - Things removed or overwrote in later patches - perhaps a specific map > file, or unit portrait, or graphic. A specific example here: A > unpatched > Neverwinter Nights (or low patched version) has some original portraits > which were, essentially, photoshops of celebrities. In addition, the > med > kit has a red cross on it. Both were patched out with alternatives > (although the patch process does, admittedly, load the "patch files > first" and doesn't remove the originals I think, which is awesome > actually). If you couldn't get the early patches, you'd have little way > to get information on these two things (ie; when they were patched > out). > There are other games which patched out things too, for an amazing > amount of reasons. > > - Patches which had flaws - like adding SecureRom, or breaking things - > like you said mainly - but more that a patch might remove functionality > or cause problems, an earlier patch might be better. > > - Patches that require the previous patch installed first. I'm sure > this > patch site does that, but obviously, without knowing specifics on the > game (ie; owning it) you can't be sure that a patch doesn't require a > specific previous version to install. > > - Finally, knowing how things changed over time. It's a bit drastic > looking at the difference between a games original release and, say, > patch number 10. What changed, when, and at what release date might be > important for the games history - especially MMO histories, or > community > histories (competitive play and so forth). > > An archive of all patches would be the best possible way of doing it of > course :) > > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 19:34:42 2008 From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:34:42 -0400 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: <48F282CD.7070405@oldskool.org> References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> <48F282CD.7070405@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48f28994.1287460a.2dc0.ffffa40b@mx.google.com> Jim, Talk about a blast from the past. I remember Romulus from circa 1992 or so... Thanks : ) Stuart > -----Original Message----- > From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_preservation- > bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Jim Leonard > Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 7:06 PM > To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG > Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs > > There's this: > > ftp://ftp.gamers.org/pub/archives/uwp-uml/ > > There's a Romulus archive inside it: > > ftp://ftp.gamers.org/pub/archives/uwp-uml/romulus/ > > *THAT* has some pretty juicy (if old) stuff. > > Andrew Armstrong wrote: > > Ooh, awesome. I honestly have never seen that before, despite > sometimes > > searching for patches for a fair while. Files seem to be hosted on > > http://dlh.net/ , interesting. > > > > The site only has 383 games with patch pages, I wonder how many > patches > > they have total, hard to see from the A-Z listings (although it's > great > > to see a news archive going back to 1995, wow!) > > > > Anyone got any more of these sites, please post them :) > > > > Andrew > > > > Stuart Feldhamer wrote: > >> > >> There is such an archive: > >> > >> > >> > >> http://www.patches-scrolls.de/ > >> > >> > >> > >> Stuart > >> > >> > >> > >> *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org > >> [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Captain > >> Commando > >> *Sent:* Sunday, October 12, 2008 5:41 PM > >> *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG > >> *Subject:* [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs > >> > >> > >> > >> I think OldVersion.com was listed on the resource list awhile back, > >> but I'm going to pull it up again. This site archives old versions > of > >> computer software and utilities like Flash and Winamp. Similarly, I > >> think it would be useful to have an archive of game patches. It's a > >> bit difficult to locate patches for some of my older games, but it > can > >> also be useful and historically significant to run older patches of > >> computer games. > >> > >> > >> > >> http://www.oldversion.com/ > >> > >> > >> -Devin Monnens > >> > >> > >> -- > >> The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > >> > >> "Until next time..." > >> Captain Commando > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> game_preservation mailing list > >> game_preservation at igda.org > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > >> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > game_preservation mailing list > > game_preservation at igda.org > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 19:36:03 2008 From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:36:03 -0400 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <48f289e4.0f86460a.4266.ffffff21@mx.google.com> Devin, I don't get it. I just searched and found patches for all of the games that you listed. Stuart From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Captain Commando Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:56 PM To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs Well, this is a start. It doesn't contain a WIDE range of games, mostly popular ones (but also some odd ones like Microprose's Magic the Gathering). Missing a few like Ultima, Freespace, and X-Wing vs Tie Fighter that I've had to google for. In addition, it only includes the most recent patches. The patch collection I am talking about would have as many patch versions as possible (hopefully with information on what got patched with each version). If you want to preserve PC games, you really need to keep patches in mind. I wouldn't be able to give you a lot of reasons for why older patches would be incredibly important (unless newer patches had certain bugs that weren't manifest in older patches on some hardware), but again, you never know what's going to be important thirty years from now. -Devin On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: Ooh, awesome. I honestly have never seen that before, despite sometimes searching for patches for a fair while. Files seem to be hosted on http://dlh.net/ , interesting. The site only has 383 games with patch pages, I wonder how many patches they have total, hard to see from the A-Z listings (although it's great to see a news archive going back to 1995, wow!) Anyone got any more of these sites, please post them :) Andrew Stuart Feldhamer wrote: There is such an archive: http://www.patches-scrolls.de/ Stuart From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Captain Commando Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 5:41 PM To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs I think OldVersion.com was listed on the resource list awhile back, but I'm going to pull it up again. This site archives old versions of computer software and utilities like Flash and Winamp. Similarly, I think it would be useful to have an archive of game patches. It's a bit difficult to locate patches for some of my older games, but it can also be useful and historically significant to run older patches of computer games. http://www.oldversion.com/ -Devin Monnens -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando _____ _______________________________________________ game_preservation mailing list game_preservation at igda.org http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation _______________________________________________ game_preservation mailing list game_preservation at igda.org http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 19:52:02 2008 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Captain Commando) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 17:52:02 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: <48f289e4.0f86460a.4266.ffffff21@mx.google.com> References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> <48f289e4.0f86460a.4266.ffffff21@mx.google.com> Message-ID: That would have been because I was looking in the Games Index. Obviously they do not have every single game listed in there :-) -Devin On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 5:36 PM, Stuart Feldhamer < stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com> wrote: > Devin, > > > > I don't get it. I just searched and found patches for all of the games that > you listed. > > > > Stuart > > > > *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [mailto: > game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Captain Commando > *Sent:* Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:56 PM > *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG > *Subject:* Re: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs > > > > Well, this is a start. It doesn't contain a WIDE range of games, mostly > popular ones (but also some odd ones like Microprose's Magic the Gathering). > Missing a few like Ultima, Freespace, and X-Wing vs Tie Fighter that I've > had to google for. In addition, it only includes the most recent patches. > The patch collection I am talking about would have as many patch versions as > possible (hopefully with information on what got patched with each version). > If you want to preserve PC games, you really need to keep patches in mind. I > wouldn't be able to give you a lot of reasons for why older patches would be > incredibly important (unless newer patches had certain bugs that weren't > manifest in older patches on some hardware), but again, you never know > what's going to be important thirty years from now. > > -Devin > > On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Andrew Armstrong > wrote: > > Ooh, awesome. I honestly have never seen that before, despite sometimes > searching for patches for a fair while. Files seem to be hosted on > http://dlh.net/ , interesting. > > The site only has 383 games with patch pages, I wonder how many patches > they have total, hard to see from the A-Z listings (although it's great to > see a news archive going back to 1995, wow!) > > Anyone got any more of these sites, please post them :) > > Andrew > > Stuart Feldhamer wrote: > > There is such an archive: > > > > http://www.patches-scrolls.de/ > > > > Stuart > > > > *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [ > mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] > *On Behalf Of *Captain Commando > *Sent:* Sunday, October 12, 2008 5:41 PM > *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG > *Subject:* [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs > > > > I think OldVersion.com was listed on the resource list awhile back, but I'm > going to pull it up again. This site archives old versions of computer > software and utilities like Flash and Winamp. Similarly, I think it would be > useful to have an archive of game patches. It's a bit difficult to locate > patches for some of my older games, but it can also be useful and > historically significant to run older patches of computer games. > > > > http://www.oldversion.com/ > > > -Devin Monnens > > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > game_preservation mailing list > > game_preservation at igda.org > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 20:07:45 2008 From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:07:45 -0400 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> <48f289e4.0f86460a.4266.ffffff21@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <48f29153.2486460a.3ddb.ffffae2a@mx.google.com> That reminds me of what I think is another good resource for preservation: www.gamecopyworld.com The site contains various "no-CD/no-DVD" patches that let you run games without the original disk in the drive. Made for pirates, but valuable for archivists. Stuart From: Captain Commando [mailto:evilcowclone at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 7:52 PM To: stuart at feldhamer.com; IGDA Game Preservation SIG Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs That would have been because I was looking in the Games Index. Obviously they do not have every single game listed in there :-) -Devin On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 5:36 PM, Stuart Feldhamer wrote: Devin, I don't get it. I just searched and found patches for all of the games that you listed. Stuart From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Captain Commando Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:56 PM To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs Well, this is a start. It doesn't contain a WIDE range of games, mostly popular ones (but also some odd ones like Microprose's Magic the Gathering). Missing a few like Ultima, Freespace, and X-Wing vs Tie Fighter that I've had to google for. In addition, it only includes the most recent patches. The patch collection I am talking about would have as many patch versions as possible (hopefully with information on what got patched with each version). If you want to preserve PC games, you really need to keep patches in mind. I wouldn't be able to give you a lot of reasons for why older patches would be incredibly important (unless newer patches had certain bugs that weren't manifest in older patches on some hardware), but again, you never know what's going to be important thirty years from now. -Devin On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: Ooh, awesome. I honestly have never seen that before, despite sometimes searching for patches for a fair while. Files seem to be hosted on http://dlh.net/ , interesting. The site only has 383 games with patch pages, I wonder how many patches they have total, hard to see from the A-Z listings (although it's great to see a news archive going back to 1995, wow!) Anyone got any more of these sites, please post them :) Andrew Stuart Feldhamer wrote: There is such an archive: http://www.patches-scrolls.de/ Stuart From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Captain Commando Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 5:41 PM To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs I think OldVersion.com was listed on the resource list awhile back, but I'm going to pull it up again. This site archives old versions of computer software and utilities like Flash and Winamp. Similarly, I think it would be useful to have an archive of game patches. It's a bit difficult to locate patches for some of my older games, but it can also be useful and historically significant to run older patches of computer games. http://www.oldversion.com/ -Devin Monnens -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando _____ _______________________________________________ game_preservation mailing list game_preservation at igda.org http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation _______________________________________________ game_preservation mailing list game_preservation at igda.org http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando _______________________________________________ game_preservation mailing list game_preservation at igda.org http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 20:11:12 2008 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Captain Commando) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 18:11:12 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: <48f29153.2486460a.3ddb.ffffae2a@mx.google.com> References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> <48f289e4.0f86460a.4266.ffffff21@mx.google.com> <48f29153.2486460a.3ddb.ffffae2a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I love this already. Now with this in mind, what's SIG members' opinions regarding ISO archival versus storage of individual files on the disc? This is applicable to both game discs and music CDs. Videogame music, for example - I was debating on suggesting FLAC or just ISO the disc for the archival backup. FLAC has the advantage of already being in a format that can be accessed by media players, though ISO might contain some information that could get lost in the lossless conversion process. -DM On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Stuart Feldhamer < stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com> wrote: > That reminds me of what I think is another good resource for > preservation: > > > > www.gamecopyworld.com > > > > The site contains various "no-CD/no-DVD" patches that let you run games > without the original disk in the drive. > > > > Made for pirates, but valuable for archivists. > > > > Stuart > > > > *From:* Captain Commando [mailto:evilcowclone at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Sunday, October 12, 2008 7:52 PM > *To:* stuart at feldhamer.com; IGDA Game Preservation SIG > > *Subject:* Re: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs > > > > That would have been because I was looking in the Games Index. Obviously > they do not have every single game listed in there :-) > > -Devin > > On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 5:36 PM, Stuart Feldhamer < > stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com> wrote: > > Devin, > > > > I don't get it. I just searched and found patches for all of the games that > you listed. > > > > Stuart > > > > *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [mailto: > game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Captain Commando > *Sent:* Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:56 PM > > > *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG > > *Subject:* Re: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs > > > > Well, this is a start. It doesn't contain a WIDE range of games, mostly > popular ones (but also some odd ones like Microprose's Magic the Gathering). > Missing a few like Ultima, Freespace, and X-Wing vs Tie Fighter that I've > had to google for. In addition, it only includes the most recent patches. > The patch collection I am talking about would have as many patch versions as > possible (hopefully with information on what got patched with each version). > If you want to preserve PC games, you really need to keep patches in mind. I > wouldn't be able to give you a lot of reasons for why older patches would be > incredibly important (unless newer patches had certain bugs that weren't > manifest in older patches on some hardware), but again, you never know > what's going to be important thirty years from now. > > -Devin > > On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Andrew Armstrong > wrote: > > Ooh, awesome. I honestly have never seen that before, despite sometimes > searching for patches for a fair while. Files seem to be hosted on > http://dlh.net/ , interesting. > > The site only has 383 games with patch pages, I wonder how many patches > they have total, hard to see from the A-Z listings (although it's great to > see a news archive going back to 1995, wow!) > > Anyone got any more of these sites, please post them :) > > Andrew > > Stuart Feldhamer wrote: > > There is such an archive: > > > > http://www.patches-scrolls.de/ > > > > Stuart > > > > *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [ > mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] > *On Behalf Of *Captain Commando > *Sent:* Sunday, October 12, 2008 5:41 PM > *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG > *Subject:* [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs > > > > I think OldVersion.com was listed on the resource list awhile back, but I'm > going to pull it up again. This site archives old versions of computer > software and utilities like Flash and Winamp. Similarly, I think it would be > useful to have an archive of game patches. It's a bit difficult to locate > patches for some of my older games, but it can also be useful and > historically significant to run older patches of computer games. > > > > http://www.oldversion.com/ > > > -Devin Monnens > > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > game_preservation mailing list > > game_preservation at igda.org > > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sun Oct 12 20:45:11 2008 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 01:45:11 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs (ISO archival) In-Reply-To: References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> <48f289e4.0f86460a.4266.ffffff21@mx.google.com> <48f29153.2486460a.3ddb.ffffae2a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <48F29A17.3050907@aarmstrong.org> Both? Have one for the entire CD (including any extra PC-only files of course), and FLAC for individual files. :) that's if you've the space...if not, go with FLAC files only. Andrew Captain Commando wrote: > I love this already. > > Now with this in mind, what's SIG members' opinions regarding ISO > archival versus storage of individual files on the disc? This is > applicable to both game discs and music CDs. Videogame music, for > example - I was debating on suggesting FLAC or just ISO the disc for > the archival backup. FLAC has the advantage of already being in a > format that can be accessed by media players, though ISO might contain > some information that could get lost in the lossless conversion process. > > -DM From evilcowclone at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 20:51:11 2008 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Captain Commando) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 18:51:11 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs (ISO archival) In-Reply-To: <48F29A17.3050907@aarmstrong.org> References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> <48f289e4.0f86460a.4266.ffffff21@mx.google.com> <48f29153.2486460a.3ddb.ffffae2a@mx.google.com> <48F29A17.3050907@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: Well, I'd prefer to know what the difference is between the two (other than file size and accessibility). Obviously if the disc contains PC files, you'd have to include that. I suspect there might be some things related to gaps between tracks. I suppose it would be ideal to be redundant, but I'm not 100% sure if that's needed for audio discs. -DM On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Both? Have one for the entire CD (including any extra PC-only files of > course), and FLAC for individual files. :) that's if you've the space...if > not, go with FLAC files only. > > Andrew > > Captain Commando wrote: > >> I love this already. >> >> Now with this in mind, what's SIG members' opinions regarding ISO archival >> versus storage of individual files on the disc? This is applicable to both >> game discs and music CDs. Videogame music, for example - I was debating on >> suggesting FLAC or just ISO the disc for the archival backup. FLAC has the >> advantage of already being in a format that can be accessed by media >> players, though ISO might contain some information that could get lost in >> the lossless conversion process. >> >> -DM >> > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 21:04:17 2008 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:04:17 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Bad for archival? XBLA delisting rumblings Message-ID: There's the IGN rumor machine chugging away about Microsoft delisting XBLA games (Microsoft is denying they're going to do it anytime soon). That would be a serious problem for archival (even if they are crappy games being removed). I also think this completely defeats the purpose behind digital distribution. The problem isn't with there being too much stuff, it's how it's organized. http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3170592 -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 12 21:19:39 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:19:39 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: <48f28994.1287460a.2dc0.ffffa40b@mx.google.com> References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> <48F282CD.7070405@oldskool.org> <48f28994.1287460a.2dc0.ffffa40b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <48F2A22B.7090600@oldskool.org> Stuart Feldhamer wrote: > Talk about a blast from the past. I remember Romulus from circa 1992 or > so... Thanks : ) I used to have a mirror of it at oldskool.org but lost it. I'm now in the process of re-mirroring it :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 12 21:23:05 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:23:05 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> <48f289e4.0f86460a.4266.ffffff21@mx.google.com> <48f29153.2486460a.3ddb.ffffae2a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <48F2A2F9.1000801@oldskool.org> Captain Commando wrote: > Now with this in mind, what's SIG members' opinions regarding ISO > archival versus storage of individual files on the disc? Do both. Space is cheap. 1T drives (1T!!!) are about $109. However, I'd recommend bin/cue format since .ISOs won't have redbook audio or win/mac formatting. One such guide is here: http://darkwater.free.fr/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=67 (specialized for Sega CD and Saturn games but appropriate for any mixed-mode disc with data and redbook audio) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From evilcowclone at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 23:33:56 2008 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:33:56 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: <48F2A2F9.1000801@oldskool.org> References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> <48f289e4.0f86460a.4266.ffffff21@mx.google.com> <48f29153.2486460a.3ddb.ffffae2a@mx.google.com> <48F2A2F9.1000801@oldskool.org> Message-ID: So if that's the case, we should be making .cue files to go with the VGM albums we archive? The way I see it, if WAV and FLAC are both lossless, then shouldn't you be able to just back up the audio as FLAC instead of WAV and not lose any information? Hmm... Maybe I'm not sure how they work, but wouldn't m3u's and other playlists also have that same kind of support for track gaps like on a CD? (so you'd have an m3u with the same track gap information, but also a .cue so you could create the disc exactly the same way again). On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 7:23 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Captain Commando wrote: > >> Now with this in mind, what's SIG members' opinions regarding ISO archival >> versus storage of individual files on the disc? >> > > Do both. Space is cheap. 1T drives (1T!!!) are about $109. > > However, I'd recommend bin/cue format since .ISOs won't have redbook audio > or win/mac formatting. One such guide is here: > http://darkwater.free.fr/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=67 (specialized for > Sega CD and Saturn games but appropriate for any mixed-mode disc with data > and redbook audio) > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Oct 13 02:01:26 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 01:01:26 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48f27e30.0609c00a.7cfe.6a68@mx.google.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> <48f289e4.0f86460a.4266.ffffff21@mx.google.com> <48f29153.2486460a.3ddb.ffffae2a@mx.google.com> <48F2A2F9.1000801@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48F2E436.8060503@oldskool.org> Devin Monnens wrote: > So if that's the case, we should be making .cue files to go with the VGM > albums we archive? The way I see it, if WAV and FLAC are both lossless, > then shouldn't you be able to just back up the audio as FLAC instead of > WAV and not lose any information? Hmm... Maybe I'm not sure how they > work, but wouldn't m3u's and other playlists also have that same kind of > support for track gaps like on a CD? (so you'd have an m3u with the same > track gap information, but also a .cue so you could create the disc > exactly the same way again). It's more than track gaps; subcode info holds stuff like the graphics in CD+G discs, and also exact positioning/timing information. For games that rely on the audio data being in a very specific place for timing issues (Sega CD, Sega Saturn, early DOS and Mac games with redbook audio, TurboGrafix CD, others), without this information the data isn't put back in exactly the right place and you could lose sync with onscreen graphics. Also, some basic copy-protection schemes might rely on it. So yes, .iso or .wav is not good enough if you really want to archive a program disc. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From evilcowclone at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 08:51:07 2008 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 06:51:07 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: <48F2E436.8060503@oldskool.org> References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> <48f289e4.0f86460a.4266.ffffff21@mx.google.com> <48f29153.2486460a.3ddb.ffffae2a@mx.google.com> <48F2A2F9.1000801@oldskool.org> <48F2E436.8060503@oldskool.org> Message-ID: Ok, I see that. What if you're talking about JUST an audio CD? What type of information might we need for that? Again, would FLAC lossless be enough? On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 12:01 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Devin Monnens wrote: > >> So if that's the case, we should be making .cue files to go with the VGM >> albums we archive? The way I see it, if WAV and FLAC are both lossless, then >> shouldn't you be able to just back up the audio as FLAC instead of WAV and >> not lose any information? Hmm... Maybe I'm not sure how they work, but >> wouldn't m3u's and other playlists also have that same kind of support for >> track gaps like on a CD? (so you'd have an m3u with the same track gap >> information, but also a .cue so you could create the disc exactly the same >> way again). >> > > It's more than track gaps; subcode info holds stuff like the graphics in > CD+G discs, and also exact positioning/timing information. For games that > rely on the audio data being in a very specific place for timing issues > (Sega CD, Sega Saturn, early DOS and Mac games with redbook audio, > TurboGrafix CD, others), without this information the data isn't put back in > exactly the right place and you could lose sync with onscreen graphics. > Also, some basic copy-protection schemes might rely on it. > > So yes, .iso or .wav is not good enough if you really want to archive a > program disc. > > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Oct 13 09:40:34 2008 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:40:34 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Bad for archival? XBLA delisting rumblings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F34FD2.8000209@aarmstrong.org> With these delistings, it's not the worst aspect - the entire service will obviously go caput at some point (10 years? less?) when the Xbox 720 or the Xbox 1080 come out and Microsoft abandon the current platform (MSN Music tried to turn off their activation servers for music, heh. I wonder how long the original Xbox Live will continue to operate too) It makes it mute that specific games will be delisted if the entire service goes, right? :/ In any case, it's a similar situation with some other online download services - Gametap and so forth regularly delist games. The only feasible way to collect these are to download all of them constantly (noting the single point of failure, since MS don't allow backups really). For an archive this is kind of unacceptable, unless multiple accounts and whatnot are brought - so no doubt the only other alternative is to contact the developers of the games for a copy (at least which is played on a development kit), or Microsoft themselves for some kind of workaround. It's still only a rumour, I'm sure the "Live update" thing they have coming will be part of it if it is true. Andrew Devin Monnens wrote: > There's the IGN rumor machine chugging away about Microsoft delisting > XBLA games (Microsoft is denying they're going to do it anytime soon). > That would be a serious problem for archival (even if they are crappy > games being removed). I also think this completely defeats the purpose > behind digital distribution. The problem isn't with there being too > much stuff, it's how it's organized. > > http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3170592 > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From simon at archive.org Mon Oct 13 10:58:10 2008 From: simon at archive.org (Simon Carless) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 07:58:10 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Bad for archival? XBLA delisting rumblings In-Reply-To: <48F34FD2.8000209@aarmstrong.org> References: <48F34FD2.8000209@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <2b19faf60810130758v603b1278h7427bd3047be9136@mail.gmail.com> To be clear, this story was actually that delistings will likely NOT happen because of the new dashboard update. So that's good. Also, these games that are playable single player and have online elements are a lot more preservable - you can play them when not connected, though they are tied to your user ident. Don't know if anyone has cracked them but I would presume so. The pirates (for better or worse) will take care of much of this preservation. Much more worrying are the titles that are only playable with a server in place, which is why it's good that Henry has been preserving video of stuff like EA Online. Those games aren't coming back, through the copyright holder's choice, so it's good to get visual records. On 10/13/08, Andrew Armstrong wrote: > With these delistings, it's not the worst aspect - the entire service > will obviously go caput at some point (10 years? less?) when the Xbox > 720 or the Xbox 1080 come out and Microsoft abandon the current platform > (MSN Music tried to turn off their activation servers for music, heh. I > wonder how long the original Xbox Live will continue to operate too) It > makes it mute that specific games will be delisted if the entire service > goes, right? :/ > > In any case, it's a similar situation with some other online download > services - Gametap and so forth regularly delist games. > > The only feasible way to collect these are to download all of them > constantly (noting the single point of failure, since MS don't allow > backups really). For an archive this is kind of unacceptable, unless > multiple accounts and whatnot are brought - so no doubt the only other > alternative is to contact the developers of the games for a copy (at > least which is played on a development kit), or Microsoft themselves for > some kind of workaround. > > It's still only a rumour, I'm sure the "Live update" thing they have > coming will be part of it if it is true. > > Andrew > > Devin Monnens wrote: >> There's the IGN rumor machine chugging away about Microsoft delisting >> XBLA games (Microsoft is denying they're going to do it anytime soon). >> That would be a serious problem for archival (even if they are crappy >> games being removed). I also think this completely defeats the purpose >> behind digital distribution. The problem isn't with there being too >> much stuff, it's how it's organized. >> >> http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3170592 >> >> -- >> The sleep of Reason produces monsters. >> >> "Until next time..." >> Captain Commando >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> > From evilcowclone at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 11:33:26 2008 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 09:33:26 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Bad for archival? XBLA delisting rumblings In-Reply-To: <2b19faf60810130758v603b1278h7427bd3047be9136@mail.gmail.com> References: <48F34FD2.8000209@aarmstrong.org> <2b19faf60810130758v603b1278h7427bd3047be9136@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yeah, I was curious about XBLA piracy. I assume someone's tried to crack it (I think they've already cracked the Virtual Console, but Nintendo locks accounts), but a quick google didn't discover anything (though I DID learn the old news that enhanced versions of the Banjo-Kazooie N64 games were coming to XBLA). My guess is the current best legal way of backing up would be to purchase copies of all games about to be delisted, but even then, you're probably not looking at more than a 10 year backup plan due to hard drive failures (not to mention the expenses involved). The best option is probably to contact Microsoft or the game publishers themselves in order to get backups of the software for a black vault archive. On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 8:58 AM, Simon Carless wrote: > To be clear, this story was actually that delistings will likely NOT > happen because of the new dashboard update. So that's good. > > Also, these games that are playable single player and have online > elements are a lot more preservable - you can play them when not > connected, though they are tied to your user ident. Don't know if > anyone has cracked them but I would presume so. The pirates (for > better or worse) will take care of much of this preservation. > > Much more worrying are the titles that are only playable with a server > in place, which is why it's good that Henry has been preserving video > of stuff like EA Online. Those games aren't coming back, through the > copyright holder's choice, so it's good to get visual records. > > > On 10/13/08, Andrew Armstrong wrote: > > With these delistings, it's not the worst aspect - the entire service > > will obviously go caput at some point (10 years? less?) when the Xbox > > 720 or the Xbox 1080 come out and Microsoft abandon the current platform > > (MSN Music tried to turn off their activation servers for music, heh. I > > wonder how long the original Xbox Live will continue to operate too) It > > makes it mute that specific games will be delisted if the entire service > > goes, right? :/ > > > > In any case, it's a similar situation with some other online download > > services - Gametap and so forth regularly delist games. > > > > The only feasible way to collect these are to download all of them > > constantly (noting the single point of failure, since MS don't allow > > backups really). For an archive this is kind of unacceptable, unless > > multiple accounts and whatnot are brought - so no doubt the only other > > alternative is to contact the developers of the games for a copy (at > > least which is played on a development kit), or Microsoft themselves for > > some kind of workaround. > > > > It's still only a rumour, I'm sure the "Live update" thing they have > > coming will be part of it if it is true. > > > > Andrew > > > > Devin Monnens wrote: > >> There's the IGN rumor machine chugging away about Microsoft delisting > >> XBLA games (Microsoft is denying they're going to do it anytime soon). > >> That would be a serious problem for archival (even if they are crappy > >> games being removed). I also think this completely defeats the purpose > >> behind digital distribution. The problem isn't with there being too > >> much stuff, it's how it's organized. > >> > >> http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3170592 > >> > >> -- > >> The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > >> > >> "Until next time..." > >> Captain Commando > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> game_preservation mailing list > >> game_preservation at igda.org > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Oct 13 16:33:15 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:33:15 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] Older versions of Programs In-Reply-To: References: <7e04f3bd0810121426i745daae0w8517c816b85be9c1@mail.gmail.com> <48F27F4F.2060801@aarmstrong.org> <48f289e4.0f86460a.4266.ffffff21@mx.google.com> <48f29153.2486460a.3ddb.ffffae2a@mx.google.com> <48F2A2F9.1000801@oldskool.org> <48F2E436.8060503@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48F3B08B.9030706@oldskool.org> Devin Monnens wrote: > Ok, I see that. What if you're talking about JUST an audio CD? What type > of information might we need for that? Again, would FLAC lossless be enough? No, subcode info is also required. It could have hidden tracks, or it could be a CD+G, or something. It depends on what the goal is. If you want to make a 1:1 copy of redbook audio, FLAC is not enough. If the audio data itself is the only thing you care about, then FLAC is fine. But as we all know, part of history is context; in this case, the delivery medium of the audio. So to archive it properly, you need to archive the delivery medium and not just the content. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From andrew at aarmstrong.org Thu Oct 16 18:15:14 2008 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:15:14 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Videogame servers shutting down Message-ID: <48F7BCF2.5000503@aarmstrong.org> Obviously, many have shut down in the past (WON shutting down was a big one for Counterstrike for instance), now Sierra is shutting down some for older games: http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2008/10/sierra_game_ser.html (no doubt Vivendi are trying to cut down Sierra as much as possible). I noted the game years - some are pretty recent (Caesar IV), and some are older. Some I was unsure of, Mobygames nor Wikipedia gave definite information. Rather a shame - I don't know the details of each of them, but I hope that direct IP connections can work for all of them, and they can interface with 3rd party game finders (Xfire etc.). For Homeworld, Relic is looking to sort something (maybe) - http://relicnews.com/archives/2008/10/homeworld-homeworldcataclysm-servers-shutting-down-nov-1/ . At least some developers know how important their classics are. Yet another irreplacable thing, something that hinges so much on a good publisher - there's no way they're release any code so end users could create their own service to replace the matchmaking, or patch the game to work with it. I know EA did this a bit of a time ago (to much comment) for a lot of sports games servers, admittedly looking like an attempt to boost sales in more recent "Year Here" sport titles more then for cost benefits. I wonder how long people expect such a service from the publisher, and how publishers might alter the time as they see fit on a whim sometimes too. Andrew From evilcowclone at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 13:18:47 2008 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:18:47 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Redump.org Message-ID: I just heard about this site today: http://redump.org/ It is a project similar to TOSEC that is interested in archiving metadata regarding albums. They have cuesheets, MD5, and SFV files available (Darius Gaiden for Saturn, as I have this one): http://redump.org/disc/3560/ The site has a pretty detailed guide to how they create the dumps. However, it does not state how they decided upon these particular standards, which I think would have been an important explanation, as somebody obviously put a lot of thought into it before they started their project and it's important to know to what extent they know what they're doing. For instance, how does it compare to this method: http://darkwater.free.fr/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=67 What are different SIG members' opinions on this? Is it good for preservation? Is it good for archives? Is it legal? Is it worrisome to a developer? (Obviously, if this data is available, the disc was ripped, even if it isn't available on the site). Note they have data from PSP and Gamecube games, but not from Xbox, PS3, 360, or Wii (even though the crooked hook of piracy has already ensnared these formats). -Devin -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sat Oct 25 10:28:20 2008 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:28:20 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Whitepaper proofreaders and pre-release readers Message-ID: <49032D04.9070405@aarmstrong.org> Hey all, We're gearing up to start the white paper, anyone actually interested in writing anything for it needs to contact me or Henry, or post here pretty soon. Don't worry about how much experience you have either. However, since most of you are busy and here just on the listen, there is a secondary job we need help with - the necessary amount of proofreading and reading the paper before it's released. I'd like to try and get a list together now rather then at the last minute. You'd be required to only read and provide some feedback, certainly from the background of knowing about old games. This "beta test" is better then us posting the final thing and everyone complaining about things then, although no doubt this is always bound to happen anyway ;-) Post here or contact me or Henry if you're interested. I doubt it'll take a lot of time to help us in this way, but it'd be very helpful non-the-less, since more eyes means more things caught. Thanks a lot, Andrew From evilcowclone at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 11:13:55 2008 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 09:13:55 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Whitepaper proofreaders and pre-release readers In-Reply-To: <49032D04.9070405@aarmstrong.org> References: <49032D04.9070405@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: I'm on the boat for writing, even if it looks like I've been in by default (I've been interested in it from before I was a member). I'm also great at proofreading. Heck, writing tutoring is my job. Even though I don't feel happy about editing papers as soon as I get home from a long day of editing papers, yeah, I am good at that. However, I think we need more than just me, especially since I'll be writing part of it, but also because we need multiple opinions. Incidentally, I still need to finish the edits to the IGDA Memorials paper that's going in issue 1 of the IGDA Journal (at least it supposedly is...). The only thing I really have to work on based on feedback was the use of pronouns 'I' and 'we'. Partly, I think some of the concepts held in the document are those of the Preservation SIG, but I don't know if we all aggree on it. Anyway, I'll try and do some editing on that today. The doc is attached (pretty sure it's the latest one, at least...) in case anyone has feedback. -Devin On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 8:28 AM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Hey all, > > We're gearing up to start the white paper, anyone actually interested in > writing anything for it needs to contact me or Henry, or post here pretty > soon. Don't worry about how much experience you have either. > > However, since most of you are busy and here just on the listen, there is a > secondary job we need help with - the necessary amount of proofreading and > reading the paper before it's released. > > I'd like to try and get a list together now rather then at the last minute. > You'd be required to only read and provide some feedback, certainly from the > background of knowing about old games. This "beta test" is better then us > posting the final thing and everyone complaining about things then, although > no doubt this is always bound to happen anyway ;-) > > Post here or contact me or Henry if you're interested. I doubt it'll take a > lot of time to help us in this way, but it'd be very helpful non-the-less, > since more eyes means more things caught. > > Thanks a lot, > > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IGDA Memorial Article 1.1.doc Type: application/msword Size: 33792 bytes Desc: not available Url : From chris at artfulgamer.com Sat Oct 25 12:18:56 2008 From: chris at artfulgamer.com (Chris Lepine) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:18:56 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Whitepaper proofreaders and pre-release readers (Andrew Armstrong) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Andrew, I'm not sure how writing the whitepaper is planned to proceed, but I'd be willing to write something on the importance of game preservation from a historical standpoint - I wrote a quick article on the importance of game history earlier this year (http:// www.artfulgamer.com/2008/04/22/revitalizing-dead-culture-why-game- history-matters/)... Game preservation lines up with that project in the sense that without preservation, there is no such thing as archival research. Again, I'm not sure how you plan to proceed from here - but consider my offer open! - Chris http://www.artfulgamer.com 'in search of the poetic and lyrical in video games...' On 25-Oct-08, at 10:00 AM, game_preservation-request at igda.org wrote: > Send game_preservation mailing list submissions to > game_preservation at igda.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > game_preservation-request at igda.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > game_preservation-owner at igda.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of game_preservation digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Whitepaper proofreaders and pre-release readers (Andrew > Armstrong) > 2. Re: Whitepaper proofreaders and pre-release readers > (Devin Monnens) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:28:20 +0100 > From: Andrew Armstrong > Subject: [game_preservation] Whitepaper proofreaders and pre-release > readers > To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG > Message-ID: <49032D04.9070405 at aarmstrong.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hey all, > > We're gearing up to start the white paper, anyone actually > interested in > writing anything for it needs to contact me or Henry, or post here > pretty soon. Don't worry about how much experience you have either. > > However, since most of you are busy and here just on the listen, there > is a secondary job we need help with - the necessary amount of > proofreading and reading the paper before it's released. > > I'd like to try and get a list together now rather then at the last > minute. You'd be required to only read and provide some feedback, > certainly from the background of knowing about old games. This "beta > test" is better then us posting the final thing and everyone > complaining > about things then, although no doubt this is always bound to happen > anyway ;-) > > Post here or contact me or Henry if you're interested. I doubt it'll > take a lot of time to help us in this way, but it'd be very helpful > non-the-less, since more eyes means more things caught. > > Thanks a lot, > > Andrew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 12:46:45 2008 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:46:45 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Whitepaper proofreaders and pre-release readers (Andrew Armstrong) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris, That article was awesome. I remember reading it back in April, but couldn't remember the link. Thanks for bringing it up again! Some of your ideas went into my notes. I'm not sure how we're going to edit the paper, but it's possible the document could be in multiple sections, so essays like this could be included or incorporated. -DM On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Chris Lepine wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > I'm not sure how writing the whitepaper is planned to proceed, but I'd be > willing to write something on the importance of game preservation from a > historical standpoint - I wrote a quick article on the importance of game > history earlier this year ( > http://www.artfulgamer.com/2008/04/22/revitalizing-dead-culture-why-game-history-matters/ > )... > Game preservation lines up with that project in the sense that without > preservation, there is no such thing as archival research. > > Again, I'm not sure how you plan to proceed from here - but consider my > offer open! > > - Chris > > *http://www.artfulgamer.com*** > > *'in search of the poetic and lyrical in video games...'* > > On 25-Oct-08, at 10:00 AM, game_preservation-request at igda.org wrote: > > Send game_preservation mailing list submissions to > game_preservation at igda.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > game_preservation-request at igda.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > game_preservation-owner at igda.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of game_preservation digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Whitepaper proofreaders and pre-release readers (Andrew Armstrong) > 2. Re: Whitepaper proofreaders and pre-release readers > (Devin Monnens) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:28:20 +0100 > From: Andrew Armstrong > Subject: [game_preservation] Whitepaper proofreaders and pre-release > readers > To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG > Message-ID: <49032D04.9070405 at aarmstrong.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hey all, > > We're gearing up to start the white paper, anyone actually interested in > writing anything for it needs to contact me or Henry, or post here > pretty soon. Don't worry about how much experience you have either. > > However, since most of you are busy and here just on the listen, there > is a secondary job we need help with - the necessary amount of > proofreading and reading the paper before it's released. > > I'd like to try and get a list together now rather then at the last > minute. You'd be required to only read and provide some feedback, > certainly from the background of knowing about old games. This "beta > test" is better then us posting the final thing and everyone complaining > about things then, although no doubt this is always bound to happen > anyway ;-) > > Post here or contact me or Henry if you're interested. I doubt it'll > take a lot of time to help us in this way, but it'd be very helpful > non-the-less, since more eyes means more things caught. > > Thanks a lot, > > Andrew > > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sat Oct 25 12:56:09 2008 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 17:56:09 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Whitepaper proofreaders and pre-release readers (Andrew Armstrong) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49034FA9.70106@aarmstrong.org> The method on how the paper will be written will be discussed off list when I've got down everyone who wants to contribute (although no doubt it'll be similar how you suggest). I doubt it'll be very productive putting the discussions on this list, it'd be a bit spammy :) Andrew Devin Monnens wrote: > Chris, > > That article was awesome. I remember reading it back in April, but > couldn't remember the link. Thanks for bringing it up again! Some of > your ideas went into my notes. I'm not sure how we're going to edit > the paper, but it's possible the document could be in multiple > sections, so essays like this could be included or incorporated. > > -DM > > On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Chris Lepine > wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > I'm not sure how writing the whitepaper is planned to proceed, but > I'd be willing to write something on the importance of game > preservation from a historical standpoint - I wrote a quick > article on the importance of game history earlier this year > (http://www.artfulgamer.com/2008/04/22/revitalizing-dead-culture-why-game-history-matters/)... > Game preservation lines up with that project in the sense that > without preservation, there is no such thing as archival research. > > Again, I'm not sure how you plan to proceed from here - but > consider my offer open! > > - Chris > > _http://www.artfulgamer.com_ > > /'in search of the poetic and lyrical in video games...'/ > > > On 25-Oct-08, at 10:00 AM, game_preservation-request at igda.org > wrote: > >> Send game_preservation mailing list submissions to >> game_preservation at igda.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> game_preservation-request at igda.org >> >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> game_preservation-owner at igda.org >> >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of game_preservation digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Whitepaper proofreaders and pre-release readers (Andrew >> Armstrong) >> 2. Re: Whitepaper proofreaders and pre-release readers >> (Devin Monnens) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:28:20 +0100 >> From: Andrew Armstrong > > >> Subject: [game_preservation] Whitepaper proofreaders and pre-release >> readers >> To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG > > >> Message-ID: <49032D04.9070405 at aarmstrong.org >> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Hey all, >> >> We're gearing up to start the white paper, anyone actually >> interested in >> writing anything for it needs to contact me or Henry, or post here >> pretty soon. Don't worry about how much experience you have either. >> >> However, since most of you are busy and here just on the listen, >> there >> is a secondary job we need help with - the necessary amount of >> proofreading and reading the paper before it's released. >> >> I'd like to try and get a list together now rather then at the last >> minute. You'd be required to only read and provide some feedback, >> certainly from the background of knowing about old games. This "beta >> test" is better then us posting the final thing and everyone >> complaining >> about things then, although no doubt this is always bound to happen >> anyway ;-) >> >> Post here or contact me or Henry if you're interested. I doubt it'll >> take a lot of time to help us in this way, but it'd be very helpful >> non-the-less, since more eyes means more things caught. >> >> Thanks a lot, >> >> Andrew > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 22:45:03 2008 From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 22:45:03 -0400 Subject: [game_preservation] Whitepaper proofreaders and pre-release readers In-Reply-To: <49032D04.9070405@aarmstrong.org> References: <49032D04.9070405@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <4903d9b1.0405be0a.5803.6ba0@mx.google.com> I would be happy to proofread. Stuart > -----Original Message----- > From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_preservation- > bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Armstrong > Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 10:28 AM > To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG > Subject: [game_preservation] Whitepaper proofreaders and pre-release > readers > > Hey all, > > We're gearing up to start the white paper, anyone actually interested > in > writing anything for it needs to contact me or Henry, or post here > pretty soon. Don't worry about how much experience you have either. > > However, since most of you are busy and here just on the listen, there > is a secondary job we need help with - the necessary amount of > proofreading and reading the paper before it's released. > > I'd like to try and get a list together now rather then at the last > minute. You'd be required to only read and provide some feedback, > certainly from the background of knowing about old games. This "beta > test" is better then us posting the final thing and everyone > complaining > about things then, although no doubt this is always bound to happen > anyway ;-) > > Post here or contact me or Henry if you're interested. I doubt it'll > take a lot of time to help us in this way, but it'd be very helpful > non-the-less, since more eyes means more things caught. > > Thanks a lot, > > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation From chris at artfulgamer.com Sun Oct 26 13:01:24 2008 From: chris at artfulgamer.com (Chris Lepine) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 11:01:24 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Whitepaper proofreaders and pre-release readers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F7BB172-628E-4341-B67C-3D5F904F8855@artfulgamer.com> Thanks Devin! I'm looking forward to writing something in the future in much more detail than I did in the article - I'd like to tackle game preservation in the same way that I tried to work out game history.... ie., that it is not simply 'collecting' and that the curator's job involves understanding the nature of the thing s/he archives in an intimate way. That it makes the whole notion of appreciating or researching something possible.. -Chris > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:46:45 -0600 > From: "Devin Monnens" > Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Whitepaper proofreaders and > pre-release readers (Andrew Armstrong) > To: "IGDA Game Preservation SIG" > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Chris, > > That article was awesome. I remember reading it back in April, but > couldn't > remember the link. Thanks for bringing it up again! Some of your > ideas went > into my notes. I'm not sure how we're going to edit the paper, but > it's > possible the document could be in multiple sections, so essays like > this > could be included or incorporated. > > -DM