From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sat Aug 1 15:56:02 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2009 20:56:02 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] [Monthly SIG Roundup] August 2009 Message-ID: <4A749DD2.5070902@aarmstrong.org> We've got through rainy July (well, rainy in the UK at least). Not much to report in this opening :) Preservation SIG July 2009 Work The SIG has had some discussions on the mailing list, and I've personally been working on the Bibliography project in the background, currently organising all the types of data that might be useful and testing various PHP and HTML. :) The SIG hasn't got any other ongoing projects right now, but if you are interested, at all, in preservation to help us with our projects (and if you think something is missing, please tell us). We could use some champions and some activity if anyone has time! Future Work for July 2009 More work from me on the bibliography work, but apart from that I hope to check the Memorials project and make sure it is up to date, and possibly revise the layouts and templates a bit. Mailing List Discussions If you've not joined our mailing list , please do so. We've never tried using our forums it seems :) we stick to old-fangled email. This will eventually change when the IGDA site changes over - although those wanting email can still get it. July has had the DiGRA paper proposed for starters. We also caught up with the GIDA website progress and mailing list backups . I have got the entirety of them downloaded, and what I last heard backups of the old site and mailman servers was something that was going to be looked at. There is the report of Eludamos call for papers on preservation among other topics (this is noted below too). We also discuss Old PC game sales - including different digital distributions (Good old Games, Steam, others), emulation, and so forth. Windows 7 looks like it will run about as much as Vista . Finally we discussed a random assortment of things when iPhone game preservation was brought up. There was both comparisons to film (my bad! it was more expensive then I ever realised), and some numbers were sent around. Without any active digital preservation archives however, no one seems to be able to think about this without setting about a project, it being a low priority right now. The issue of censorship, removal of apps (by Apple or otherwise) and other issues all come up. Preservation SIG Blog Updates / Links /Have I missed anything this month? Then email it in to preservation_news @ igda.org !/ * State of the Videogame Nation * Eludamos: "Next Gen" Issue Wants Gaming History Entries Final Thoughts I am fascinated by a lot of topics which need more journalistic-investigation - or nice question asking - like the iPhone and digital distribution issues this group (or it's members at least) will have to think of in the future. Once I have sorted this Bibliography project I'll probably get to doing some serious articles to do encyclopaedic-like knowledge for the wiki - if you're interested in helping give me a shout, otherwise this will be a long term thing to do (and finish off some of the existing projects which need wiki info). Stay tuned! Andrew Armstrong IGDA Game Preservation SIG Site/Blog editor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Tue Aug 4 07:40:44 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 12:40:44 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Space Invaders Uncyclopedia article Message-ID: <4A781E3C.4060005@aarmstrong.org> Pretty funny, a look at one of the most famous videogames ;) found since I browse the new featured articles from time to time this came up. http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Invaders I got a big chuckle out of the "Philosophical Interpretations", hehe! Andrew From zvowell at austin.utexas.edu Tue Aug 4 11:01:57 2009 From: zvowell at austin.utexas.edu (Vowell, Zach) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 10:01:57 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] Online DRM In-Reply-To: <49D4F5BC.5020609@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: This doesn't have much to do with DRM mechanisms, but it's an interesting little footnote to EA's history of copy protection....maybe call it the pre-web attitude to copying. It's a snippet from the Command Summary document found in "Robot Rascals" (published by EA in 1987): "For your convenience, "Robot Rascals" is not copy protected so that you can easily make one backup copy for your own use, or install the program on your own RAM or hard disk. Please show us that copy protection is unnecessary -- do not give copies of this product away. Thank you." [emphasis in the original doc] Very polite :) Zach On 4/2/09 12:28 PM, "Andrew Armstrong" wrote: That, along with Henry's comments, really does make it seem like the most sucky system ever - what I'd half expect from laws of course. Either we'll have to look to propose something for next year (I presume it runs yearly) somehow if anyone is interested, else the Americans on this list might be having legal troubles with some of their efforts, or just, well, let it all lapse! No idea about how to coordinate it however. I'm not American, good luck letting a UK citizen into the USA law books and procedures ;) It'd have to be sorted, I guess, between the digital archives, libraries and the Library of Congress. Andrew Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote: > >> A question to the procedure: Is it necessary, to propose that an >> exemption should be keept every three years again after it was >> granted first? Or does it remain automaticly until someone proposes >> that it should be canceled? >> >> Andreas >> > > I looked at this a bit more in depth in the fall, and looked at the > list of proposals up for review, and this one was not included. I am > fairly sure that someone has to sponsor it for it to remain. > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation _______________________________________________ game_preservation mailing list game_preservation at igda.org http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From donahrm at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 11:24:38 2009 From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 11:24:38 -0400 Subject: [game_preservation] Online DRM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think language like that was pretty common pre-1990 or so. I remember hearing the "one backup copy" line pretty frequently, back in the day. I've just noticed your email address is UT Austin, which makes me think -- should we try to arrange a SIG get together at SAA? Anyone else going? Time is tight for me, but I could probably swing lunch one day. Cheers, Rach On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 11:01:57 -0400, Vowell, Zach wrote: > This doesn't have much to do with DRM mechanisms, but it's an > interesting little footnote to EA's history of copy protection....maybe > call it the pre-web attitude to copying. It's a snippet from the > Command Summary document found in "Robot Rascals" (published by EA in > 1987): > > "For your convenience, "Robot Rascals" is not copy protected so that you > can easily make one backup copy for your own use, or install the program > on your own RAM or hard disk. Please show us that copy protection is > unnecessary -- do not give copies of this product away. Thank you." > [emphasis in the original doc] > > Very polite :) > > > Zach From lowood at stanford.edu Tue Aug 4 12:21:04 2009 From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 09:21:04 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Online DRM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A785FF0.2020200@stanford.edu> Rachel, In fact, I just wrote to Zach about SAA. I am only going to be there the full day on the 13th, plus some of the evening of the 12th. But what about meeting the afternoon of the 13th, after the game preservation session? Maybe the group will head out for lunch together, not sure. Or we could meet for coffee in the later afternoon. Henry Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote: > I think language like that was pretty common pre-1990 or so. I > remember hearing the "one backup copy" line pretty frequently, back in > the day. > > I've just noticed your email address is UT Austin, which makes me > think -- should we try to arrange a SIG get together at SAA? Anyone > else going? Time is tight for me, but I could probably swing lunch one > day. > > Cheers, > Rach > > On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 11:01:57 -0400, Vowell, Zach > wrote: > >> This doesn't have much to do with DRM mechanisms, but it's an >> interesting little footnote to EA's history of copy >> protection....maybe call it the pre-web attitude to copying. It's a >> snippet from the Command Summary document found in "Robot Rascals" >> (published by EA in 1987): >> >> "For your convenience, "Robot Rascals" is not copy protected so that >> you can easily make one backup copy for your own use, or install the >> program on your own RAM or hard disk. Please show us that copy >> protection is unnecessary -- do not give copies of this product >> away. Thank you." [emphasis in the original doc] >> >> Very polite :) >> >> >> Zach > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation -- Henry Lowood, Ph.D. Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; Film & Media Collections HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall Stanford University Libraries Stanford CA 94305-6004 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From info at fadresearch.com Tue Aug 4 12:14:18 2009 From: info at fadresearch.com (Info) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 12:14:18 -0400 Subject: [game_preservation] Online DRM In-Reply-To: References: <49D4F5BC.5020609@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090804114001.04e88820@fadresearch.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Wed Aug 5 04:16:44 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:16:44 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Online DRM In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090804114001.04e88820@fadresearch.com> References: <49D4F5BC.5020609@aarmstrong.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20090804114001.04e88820@fadresearch.com> Message-ID: <4A793FEC.4090806@aarmstrong.org> Oooh, manual lookups (or in Civilization's case, Trivia questions!), code wheels (I had one for my dad's Premier Manager - matching shirts and shorts to make a kit with a matching number), and so forth, yeah, fun stuff. Dissuasion yep. Better the hacking the distribution media and technically breaking it. Laws differ from country to country, on the credit versus refund issue. Untested EULA's and requirement specifications on boxes (or lackthereof here) etc. etc., wish it was more concrete... but yes, digitial distribution as discussed isn't workable for preservation even if compatibility issues were resolved - there is the issue of control too, since Valve has automated, horribly supported (ie; lack of appeals), banning processes - that ban you from the service, not a specific game, which is a terribly bad practice, among other issues (this isn't just Steam mind you, but other services do this too). Basically that might come into play if a "preservation account" was hacked or somesuch. Oh well, maybe in the future! Andrew Info wrote: > > Ahh, simpler times. That was one of Dani Berry's (Dan Bunten at the > time) early titles. Shortly thereafter Ozark went to a "enter the 7th > word on the 4th line on page 12 from the manual" - model for DRM. It > was irritating but worked well enough. It meant that you had to have a > copy of the shipped manual to get into the game. This worked alright > at the time and served as a middle ground between protected disks and > dongles and no protection at all. Obviously this wouldn't be much of > a solution present day for retail product. Much of the point of DRM > (forgive me if you've had this discussion already) is simply to create > enough friction to dissuade 95% of those copying the software. Same > goes in other media. You'll never eliminate all of them unless you > stay with a closed Steam-like setup. > > Steam works well for new releases designed to be distributed that way. > I've been using it since '03. The only trouble I've had with Steam was > with the purchase of a single legacy pre-online title. Wouldn't run, > wasn't supported, they even make refunds impossible. I had to settle > for a credit. I wouldn't recommend purchasing anything not designed > to be distributed through online means. Or at least I wouldn't > purchase titles not supported by a major label. Id's stuff works fine > via Steam. There may come a day when a system like this may be > feasible and supported for preservation purposes. Possibly as a > research network of some kind. > > Sam Punnett > > At 11:01 AM 8/4/2009, you wrote: >> Content-Language: en >> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >> boundary="_000_C69DB7955C10zvowellaustinutexasedu_" >> >> This doesn't have much to do with DRM mechanisms, but it's an >> interesting little footnote to EA's history of copy >> protection....maybe call it the pre-web attitude to copying. It's a >> snippet from the Command Summary document found in "Robot Rascals" >> (published by EA in 1987): >> >> "For your convenience, "Robot Rascals" is not copy protected so that >> you can easily make *one* backup copy for your own use, or install >> the program on *your own* RAM or hard disk. Please show us that copy >> protection is unnecessary -- *do not give copies of this product >> away*. Thank you." [emphasis in the original doc] >> >> Very polite :) >> >> >> Zach >> >> >> On 4/2/09 12:28 PM, "Andrew Armstrong" wrote: >> >> That, along with Henry's comments, really does make it seem like the >> most sucky system ever - what I'd half expect from laws of course. >> Either we'll have to look to propose something for next year (I >> presume >> it runs yearly) somehow if anyone is interested, else the >> Americans on >> this list might be having legal troubles with some of their >> efforts, or >> just, well, let it all lapse! >> No idea about how to coordinate it however. I'm not American, >> good luck >> letting a UK citizen into the USA law books and procedures ;) >> It'd have >> to be sorted, I guess, between the digital archives, libraries >> and the >> Library of Congress. >> Andrew >> Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote: >> > >> >> A question to the procedure: Is it necessary, to propose that an >> >> exemption should be keept every three years again after it was >> >> granted first? Or does it remain automaticly until someone >> proposes >> >> that it should be canceled? >> >> >> >> Andreas >> >> >> > >> > I looked at this a bit more in depth in the fall, and looked at >> the >> > list of proposals up for review, and this one was not included. >> I am >> > fairly sure that someone has to sponsor it for it to remain. >> > _______________________________________________ >> > game_preservation mailing list >> > game_preservation at igda.org >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lowood at stanford.edu Thu Aug 6 12:23:45 2009 From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 09:23:45 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Gnop or Operation Desert Storm footage? Message-ID: <4A7B0391.5070209@stanford.edu> This is a question from a former student, Nick Werner (some of you may have seen his machinima work). Anyway, we are stumped and have not been able to find anything that he can use (we know about the G4 footage and the small screenshots on Bungiepedia, btw). Anybody have any screenshots or video, or anything he might be able to use? Please reply to Nick: > Here is his query: > We're doing a show at work right now that will require me to show > video, or high-quality stills, of Bungie's first two games, Gnop! (a > pong clone) and Operation Desert Storm (a 2D tank shooter). I have > SCOURED the interwebs for stuff, but have found barely anything -- two > or three low-res images, and that's it. I DID find an emulator for > the games, but the emulators require Mac ROMs that I don't have access to. > > You're a guy who works with ye olde videoe gaimes... Any chance you > have any footage / stills / playable versions of either game? I > checked the Archive, but I couldn't find anything. We don't need > much, literally only like 20-30 seconds of footage, but we can't find > it anywhere. Thanks Henry! Henry -- Henry Lowood, Ph.D. Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; Film & Media Collections HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall Stanford University Libraries Stanford CA 94305-6004 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmonnens at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 13:04:07 2009 From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 11:04:07 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Gnop or Operation Desert Storm footage? In-Reply-To: <4A7B0391.5070209@stanford.edu> References: <4A7B0391.5070209@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50908061004u2864cc65l94b88ecac1d6af7d@mail.gmail.com> Has Nick tried e-mailing Bungie? They seem to have made all their old games open-source, so I don't see why they wouldn't make Gnop! and ODS open-source as well or just say they don't care if you download them. Heck, they may even have footage and screens he could use! -Devin On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Henry Lowood wrote: > This is a question from a former student, Nick Werner (some of you may > have seen his machinima work). Anyway, we are stumped and have not been > able to find anything that he can use (we know about the G4 footage and the > small screenshots on Bungiepedia, btw). Anybody have any screenshots or > video, or anything he might be able to use? Please reply to Nick: < > nickmuaddib at gmail.com> > > Here is his query: > > We're doing a show at work right now that will require me to show video, or > high-quality stills, of Bungie's first two games, Gnop! (a pong clone) and > Operation Desert Storm (a 2D tank shooter). I have SCOURED the interwebs > for stuff, but have found barely anything -- two or three low-res images, > and that's it. I DID find an emulator for the games, but the emulators > require Mac ROMs that I don't have access to. > > You're a guy who works with ye olde videoe gaimes... Any chance you have > any footage / stills / playable versions of either game? I checked the > Archive, but I couldn't find anything. We don't need much, literally only > like 20-30 seconds of footage, but we can't find it anywhere. Thanks Henry! > > Henry > -- > Henry Lowood, Ph.D. > Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; > Film & Media Collections > HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall > Stanford University Libraries > Stanford CA 94305-6004 > 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > -- Devin Monnens www.deserthat.com The sleep of Reason produces monsters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Fri Aug 7 04:26:31 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 09:26:31 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Gnop or Operation Desert Storm footage? In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50908061004u2864cc65l94b88ecac1d6af7d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A7B0391.5070209@stanford.edu> <9d1cf2d50908061004u2864cc65l94b88ecac1d6af7d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A7BE537.20807@aarmstrong.org> I guess those who might have Mac magazines could do scans of the games if they knew the release dates, although I am hopeless on magazines and what would have been around in the 90's for games on macs :) That or actively searching any online magazine archives. I don't have any links to hand for Mac ones though! Andrew Devin Monnens wrote: > Has Nick tried e-mailing Bungie? They seem to have made all their old > games open-source, so I don't see why they wouldn't make Gnop! and ODS > open-source as well or just say they don't care if you download them. > Heck, they may even have footage and screens he could use! > > -Devin > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Henry Lowood > wrote: > > This is a question from a former student, Nick Werner (some of you > may have seen his machinima work). Anyway, we are stumped and > have not been able to find anything that he can use (we know about > the G4 footage and the small screenshots on Bungiepedia, btw). > Anybody have any screenshots or video, or anything he might be > able to use? Please reply to Nick: > > > Here is his query: > >> We're doing a show at work right now that will require me to show >> video, or high-quality stills, of Bungie's first two games, Gnop! >> (a pong clone) and Operation Desert Storm (a 2D tank shooter). I >> have SCOURED the interwebs for stuff, but have found barely >> anything -- two or three low-res images, and that's it. I DID >> find an emulator for the games, but the emulators require Mac >> ROMs that I don't have access to. >> >> You're a guy who works with ye olde videoe gaimes... Any chance >> you have any footage / stills / playable versions of either >> game? I checked the Archive, but I couldn't find anything. We >> don't need much, literally only like 20-30 seconds of footage, >> but we can't find it anywhere. Thanks Henry! > Henry > -- > Henry Lowood, Ph.D. > Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; > Film & Media Collections > HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall > Stanford University Libraries > Stanford CA 94305-6004 > 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu ; > http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > > -- > Devin Monnens > www.deserthat.com > > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike at multimedia.cx Fri Aug 7 19:41:38 2009 From: mike at multimedia.cx (Mike Melanson) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 16:41:38 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] iOpenAppStoreMetaData Message-ID: <4A7CBBB2.8010901@multimedia.cx> Andrew suggested I post about this little project of mine: http://multimedia.cx/eggs/iopenappstoremetadata/ Executive summary: I created an offline database containing information about Apple?s iPhone App Store, made it browseable offline with full text search, and even generated some nifty charts and tables about the apps, mostly so I can help catalog iPhone games. -- -Mike Melanson From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sat Aug 8 08:46:32 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2009 13:46:32 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] iOpenAppStoreMetaData In-Reply-To: <4A7CBBB2.8010901@multimedia.cx> References: <4A7CBBB2.8010901@multimedia.cx> Message-ID: <4A7D73A8.8020507@aarmstrong.org> I enjoyed reading how you did it :) I certainly think such methods will be useful in the future - Apple is popular, but there are rises and falls of mobile phone makers, I am sure Apple won't be the first with 50,000 apps to keep an eye on! Andrew Mike Melanson wrote: > Andrew suggested I post about this little project of mine: > > http://multimedia.cx/eggs/iopenappstoremetadata/ > > Executive summary: I created an offline database containing > information about Apple?s iPhone App Store, made it browseable offline > with full text search, and even generated some nifty charts and tables > about the apps, mostly so I can help catalog iPhone games. > From dmonnens at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 12:24:39 2009 From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 10:24:39 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Computers playing videogames Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50908090924k7642c41bp4fc09395b69c83fc@mail.gmail.com> First there was the team of researchers who created an algorithm to play Pitfall. http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3174930 http://paul.rutgers.edu/~cdiuk/papers/OORL.pdf - paper documenting it Now, someone has created a Flash program that builds its own Mario levels. Someone ELSE created a program that plays those levels by itself: http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1918634 With Nintendo's announcement of games that will play themselves, this is an interesting trend. What might this hold for the future of games as well as preservation? And what might it tell us about learning? -- Devin Monnens www.deserthat.com The sleep of Reason produces monsters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sun Aug 9 13:13:06 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 18:13:06 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Computers playing videogames In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50908090924k7642c41bp4fc09395b69c83fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d1cf2d50908090924k7642c41bp4fc09395b69c83fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A7F03A2.5020703@aarmstrong.org> Games can already play themselves :) You used to be able to set the Left 4 Dead bots to "play without humans" and just move themselves. The AI director there already plays the zombie side if it isn't versus :) Oh, going back further, bots in anything from quake-times onwards also count :D I like the AI research areas though - things are a bit more abstract and puzzle-like in Mario etc. - and involve more complex timing (rather then just letting a pathfinding algorithm tell the AI where it needs to jump etc.). As for where it puts games - squarely in the academic arena for these purposes. Self-playing won't be fun, however cooperative and competitive play will be - I'd love non-rubberband AI opponents in racing games (rarely done, but is possible), better informed and competent AI allies and opponents in anything that involves any kind of cooperation too (especially strategy and management games which don't usually feature highly adept AI). Personally, I'd also like AI's to be able to play as a human would - as much of the kind of research progression intends (ie; AI's playing singleplayer levels), but that is more my interest in AI then any real world application besides "yay, we can do it!". Andrew Devin Monnens wrote: > First there was the team of researchers who created an algorithm to > play Pitfall. > > http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3174930 > http://paul.rutgers.edu/~cdiuk/papers/OORL.pdf > - paper documenting it > > Now, someone has created a Flash program that builds its own Mario > levels. Someone ELSE created a program that plays those levels by itself: > > http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1918634 > > With Nintendo's announcement of games that will play themselves, this > is an interesting trend. What might this hold for the future of games > as well as preservation? And what might it tell us about learning? > > -- > Devin Monnens > www.deserthat.com > > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike at multimedia.cx Mon Aug 10 02:43:01 2009 From: mike at multimedia.cx (Mike Melanson) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 23:43:01 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Computers playing videogames In-Reply-To: <4A7F03A2.5020703@aarmstrong.org> References: <9d1cf2d50908090924k7642c41bp4fc09395b69c83fc@mail.gmail.com> <4A7F03A2.5020703@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <4A7FC175.5080001@multimedia.cx> Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Games can already play themselves :) You used to be able to set the Left > 4 Dead bots to "play without humans" and just move themselves. The AI > director there already plays the zombie side if it isn't versus :) Here's a game called Magnaflux Runner (end of the post) that plays itself-- with bizarre results due to a certain bug: http://games.multimedia.cx/10k-push/ Also, I have a plan one day to create a program that can interpret the most inane interactive movie games ever created: http://multimedia.cx/eggs/dumbass/ I think for a few such titles, I should be able to implement a mode that can solve the game by itself (basically a naive maze-solving algorithm). -- -Mike Melanson From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Aug 10 14:03:39 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 19:03:39 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Computers playing videogames In-Reply-To: <4A7FC175.5080001@multimedia.cx> References: <9d1cf2d50908090924k7642c41bp4fc09395b69c83fc@mail.gmail.com> <4A7F03A2.5020703@aarmstrong.org> <4A7FC175.5080001@multimedia.cx> Message-ID: <4A8060FB.2050409@aarmstrong.org> Hahaha, I love that Magnaflux Runner! Wow, the AI actually is doing a full-screen inspection that gets interrupted, that is amazing, so sooo metagame :) It actually is an awesome idea for an actual indie-game, like ROM CHECK FAIL which itself is very cool and weird. Playing through interactive games (ie; text based, movie based, or screen-based "scene games" I guess) is an interesting feat - AI might well be possible to do this, if there are well defined inputs and can be played quickly (or if you have enough time to wait since no doubt 99% of the options lead to a game over screen). I am sure I read something about text-based ones being relatively easy - and honestly quite possibly this would be a cinch to program anyway (executing every known input and recording the outputs independently will get you a nice tree - although for large trees memory becomes a problem - easier in movie-based ones with much smaller trees though). Andrew Mike Melanson wrote: > Andrew Armstrong wrote: >> Games can already play themselves :) You used to be able to set the >> Left 4 Dead bots to "play without humans" and just move themselves. >> The AI director there already plays the zombie side if it isn't >> versus :) > > Here's a game called Magnaflux Runner (end of the post) that plays > itself-- with bizarre results due to a certain bug: > > http://games.multimedia.cx/10k-push/ > > Also, I have a plan one day to create a program that can interpret the > most inane interactive movie games ever created: > > http://multimedia.cx/eggs/dumbass/ > > I think for a few such titles, I should be able to implement a mode > that can solve the game by itself (basically a naive maze-solving > algorithm). > From dmonnens at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 23:26:36 2009 From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 21:26:36 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Game History related video Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50908132026g7b780c79p91812bab5550e9ce@mail.gmail.com> http://vimeo.com/1743331 This video blends game history together rather seamlessly. It was produced as part of a documentary. Warning about some completely ridiculous NSFW towards the end. -- Devin Monnens www.deserthat.com The sleep of Reason produces monsters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmonnens at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 09:55:23 2009 From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 07:55:23 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Digital Services and Cataloguing Librarian Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50908150655nc64f085u234a374e897f6c7f@mail.gmail.com> Providence College is hiring an assistant professor in digital services and cataloguing. http://www.higheredjobs.com/details.cfm?JobCode=175386459 I assume you need a degree in library science or some digital media preservation background for this. I just have a hobbyist status... -- Devin Monnens www.deserthat.com The sleep of Reason produces monsters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lowood at stanford.edu Sun Aug 16 01:24:30 2009 From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 22:24:30 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Digital Services and Cataloguing Librarian In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50908150655nc64f085u234a374e897f6c7f@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d1cf2d50908150655nc64f085u234a374e897f6c7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A87980E.8080506@stanford.edu> Devin, If it's in cataloging or technical services, and it appears to be, then an MLS or MLIS is probably a prerequisite. Henry Devin Monnens wrote: > Providence College is hiring an assistant professor in digital > services and cataloguing. > > http://www.higheredjobs.com/details.cfm?JobCode=175386459 > > I assume you need a degree in library science or some digital media > preservation background for this. I just have a hobbyist status... > > -- > Devin Monnens > www.deserthat.com > > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- Henry Lowood Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; Film & Media Collections HRG, Green Library 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmonnens at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 10:46:54 2009 From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:46:54 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] How studios dispose of prototypes and libraries Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50908210746o2859bdb9t17b73120b960223d@mail.gmail.com> Not sure how most studios deal with development material, but in a recent interview with Michael Kelbaugh of Retro Studios, we find out they have an interesting - and definitive - solution: "I always like reading the posts about Raven Blade. There's this underground mystery about that game. When you start reading the blogs and newsgroups and what have you, there's always this post that says, 'Oh, they're going to work on Raven Blade' or 'I wonder if they're bringing Raven Blade back?' And at one point I went back and had them burn the last copy of Raven Blade -- and this was probably two or three years ago -- and I looked at it," says Michael Kelbaugh, president of Retro Studios..."I just couldn't believe that we even came close to making anything like that because it was absolutely horrible." Despite my game preservation obsession, this brought me a chuckle. I think we can learn from it. In other news, there was an article in the Times the other day about how some Tintin comics have been placed in the back room of the New York Public Library because they were deemed too racist for visitors. They don't mention them by name, but the Tintin comics are undoubtedly in the same storage area as the Uncle Remus children's books. This brings some interesting things about game preservation and also relates to some other current events. Now hopefully, this won't get into such a huge long argument that it did on the WIG SIG mailing list... Essentially it involves how we deal with games depicting objectionable material. I think what it comes down to is a situation similar to the Uncle Remus books, which are horribly offensive by today's standards but which have historical importance about the culture of the time. I think if you look at the worst examples from videogames, there's Custer's Revenge which is used as an example in many game studies books (such as Miguel Sicart's book on game ethics). I would argue that from a purely formal standpoint, even though the material is about as offensive as games have become (even in its crude simplicity), because it is a work referenced by so many people, it should be archived for that reason alone, but kept in a similar category as the Uncle Remus books (not that I think there's anything really redeeming about Custer's Revenge other than an example of what NOT to do - also makes me wonder if anybody tracked down the developers and asked them what they were smoking when they made it). Anyway, I just figured I'd bring these two topics up here to see if anyone had any reflections or anything they wanted to add. -- Devin Monnens www.deserthat.com The sleep of Reason produces monsters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Fri Aug 21 18:01:23 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 23:01:23 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] How studios dispose of prototypes and libraries In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50908210746o2859bdb9t17b73120b960223d@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d1cf2d50908210746o2859bdb9t17b73120b960223d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A8F1933.6060503@aarmstrong.org> Interesting on the disposal front - horrible atrocities to games which are released already exist, I'm sure there are a ton which are never released too :) Most no doubt went further into the " As for the second point, if we start judging history by today's standards, or even locality by today's standards, we'd never get anywhere. If we're islamic, we'd ban all mohammed-showing games. If we're Christian, it'd be a hard stance on bible-problematic games. If we're German, violence is out. There's a ton of problems without bringing in just general historical-problematic games. There's always someone who will hate something, so if a reason is needed to stop "liking" or even preserving something (a medium, a specific title or anything) there will be one, valid or not. I prefer to keep everything around - as for sex games, which the WIG one went a bit off on, it's a difficult situation - although in virtual form, I'm not exactly an expert, but it's damn better something being virtual then real I'd say - as for violent games too of course, it's all pretty fantastical. I'm pretty impartial to things being released - whatever the taste - I'm never of the mindset "ban it" and am quite the opposite, which likely will conflict with a few people here, but it's the truth, so I'd say it's all important to keep a record of :) Andrew Devin Monnens wrote: > Not sure how most studios deal with development material, but in a > recent interview with Michael Kelbaugh of Retro Studios, we find out > they have an interesting - and definitive - solution: > > "I always like reading the posts about Raven Blade. There's this > underground mystery about that game. When you start reading the blogs > and newsgroups and what have you, there's always this post that says, > 'Oh, they're going to work on Raven Blade' or 'I wonder if they're > bringing Raven Blade back?' And at one point I went back and had them > burn the last copy of Raven Blade -- and this was probably two or > three years ago -- and I looked at it," says Michael Kelbaugh, > president of Retro Studios..."I just couldn't believe that we even > came close to making anything like that because it was absolutely > horrible." > > Despite my game preservation obsession, this brought me a chuckle. I > think we can learn from it. > > In other news, there was an article in the Times the other day about > how some Tintin comics have been placed in the back room of the New > York Public Library because they were deemed too racist for visitors. > They don't mention them by name, but the Tintin comics are undoubtedly > in the same storage area as the Uncle Remus children's books. This > brings some interesting things about game preservation and also > relates to some other current events. Now hopefully, this won't get > into such a huge long argument that it did on the WIG SIG mailing list... > > Essentially it involves how we deal with games depicting objectionable > material. I think what it comes down to is a situation similar to the > Uncle Remus books, which are horribly offensive by today's standards > but which have historical importance about the culture of the time. I > think if you look at the worst examples from videogames, there's > Custer's Revenge which is used as an example in many game studies > books (such as Miguel Sicart's book on game ethics). I would argue > that from a purely formal standpoint, even though the material is > about as offensive as games have become (even in its crude > simplicity), because it is a work referenced by so many people, it > should be archived for that reason alone, but kept in a similar > category as the Uncle Remus books (not that I think there's anything > really redeeming about Custer's Revenge other than an example of what > NOT to do - also makes me wonder if anybody tracked down the > developers and asked them what they were smoking when they made it). > > Anyway, I just figured I'd bring these two topics up here to see if > anyone had any reflections or anything they wanted to add. > > -- > Devin Monnens > www.deserthat.com > > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmonnens at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 19:20:51 2009 From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 17:20:51 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] How studios dispose of prototypes and libraries In-Reply-To: <4A8F1933.6060503@aarmstrong.org> References: <9d1cf2d50908210746o2859bdb9t17b73120b960223d@mail.gmail.com> <4A8F1933.6060503@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50908211620yb833758u54c68a2fee7b3d3a@mail.gmail.com> Unfortunately, looks like your first part of the quote got cut off :) I think it's an interesting discussion - for a really crappy demo like Raven Blade, was that worth preserving? Certainly the studio has a right to destroy their own property, but a real question is how culturally or artistically important is the artifact and for artifacts of great importance, does the company have a - shall we say? - responsibility to hold onto those? In terms of banning versus speech... Well, it's not that you're not allowed to tell Uncle Remus stories anymore or create a film like Birth of a Nation or show blackface, but it's culturally inappropriate to do so (and I think this is a benefit to our society as a result). We should be treating games with that same treatment we give film and literature. I think if we look at violence against women in the same category, then presenting it for the sake of presenting it and not being constructive is akin to creating a racist game (rather than say an artwork about racism), and we should treat it as such. But it's not like we have control over what other countries can do, and that's a bit off-topic. On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Interesting on the disposal front - horrible atrocities to games which are > released already exist, I'm sure there are a ton which are never released > too :) Most no doubt went further into the " > > As for the second point, if we start judging history by today's standards, > or even locality by today's standards, we'd never get anywhere. If we're > islamic, we'd ban all mohammed-showing games. If we're Christian, it'd be a > hard stance on bible-problematic games. If we're German, violence is out. > There's a ton of problems without bringing in just general > historical-problematic games. > > There's always someone who will hate something, so if a reason is needed to > stop "liking" or even preserving something (a medium, a specific title or > anything) there will be one, valid or not. I prefer to keep everything > around - as for sex games, which the WIG one went a bit off on, it's a > difficult situation - although in virtual form, I'm not exactly an expert, > but it's damn better something being virtual then real I'd say - as for > violent games too of course, it's all pretty fantastical. I'm pretty > impartial to things being released - whatever the taste - I'm never of the > mindset "ban it" and am quite the opposite, which likely will conflict with > a few people here, but it's the truth, so I'd say it's all important to keep > a record of :) > > Andrew > > Devin Monnens wrote: > > Not sure how most studios deal with development material, but in a recent > interview with Michael Kelbaugh of Retro Studios, we find out they have an > interesting - and definitive - solution: > "I always like reading the posts about Raven Blade. There's this > underground mystery about that game. When you start reading the blogs and > newsgroups and what have you, there's always this post that says, 'Oh, > they're going to work on Raven Blade' or 'I wonder if they're bringing Raven > Blade back?' And at one point I went back and had them burn the last copy of > Raven Blade -- and this was probably two or three years ago -- and I looked > at it," says Michael Kelbaugh, president of Retro Studios..."I just couldn't > believe that we even came close to making anything like that because it was > absolutely horrible." > > Despite my game preservation obsession, this brought me a chuckle. I > think we can learn from it. > > In other news, there was an article in the Times the other day about how > some Tintin comics have been placed in the back room of the New York Public > Library because they were deemed too racist for visitors. They don't mention > them by name, but the Tintin comics are undoubtedly in the same storage area > as the Uncle Remus children's books. This brings some interesting things > about game preservation and also relates to some other current events. Now > hopefully, this won't get into such a huge long argument that it did on the > WIG SIG mailing list... > > Essentially it involves how we deal with games depicting objectionable > material. I think what it comes down to is a situation similar to the Uncle > Remus books, which are horribly offensive by today's standards but which > have historical importance about the culture of the time. I think if you > look at the worst examples from videogames, there's Custer's Revenge which > is used as an example in many game studies books (such as Miguel Sicart's > book on game ethics). I would argue that from a purely formal standpoint, > even though the material is about as offensive as games have become (even in > its crude simplicity), because it is a work referenced by so many people, it > should be archived for that reason alone, but kept in a similar category as > the Uncle Remus books (not that I think there's anything really redeeming > about Custer's Revenge other than an example of what NOT to do - also makes > me wonder if anybody tracked down the developers and asked them what they > were smoking when they made it). > > Anyway, I just figured I'd bring these two topics up here to see if > anyone had any reflections or anything they wanted to add. > > -- > Devin Monnens > www.deserthat.com > > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > -- Devin Monnens www.deserthat.com The sleep of Reason produces monsters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike at multimedia.cx Fri Aug 21 22:18:25 2009 From: mike at multimedia.cx (Mike Melanson) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 19:18:25 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] How studios dispose of prototypes and libraries In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50908210746o2859bdb9t17b73120b960223d@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d1cf2d50908210746o2859bdb9t17b73120b960223d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A8F5571.4070608@multimedia.cx> Devin Monnens wrote: > Essentially it involves how we deal with games depicting objectionable > material. I think what it comes down to is a situation similar to the > Uncle Remus books, which are horribly offensive by today's standards but > which have historical importance about the culture of the time. I think > if you look at the worst examples from videogames, there's Custer's > Revenge which is used as an example in many game studies books (such as Wait-- there are *game studies* books? :) Pursuant to my custom of adding tangentially relevant data to the discussion, I read this blog post the other day: http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/08/well-consider-source.html Relevant portion: "if you're looking to the game developers of the world for political correctness, you're looking in the wrong place. I never much liked Tomb Raider as a game, but perhaps you'll appreciate it more if you understand that the developers genuinely believed they were engaging in revolutionary gender outreach by making the protagonist a woman with large breasts, short shorts, and a gun." And that was only 10 years ago. -- -Mike Melanson From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sat Aug 22 07:54:42 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 12:54:42 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] How studios dispose of prototypes and libraries In-Reply-To: <4A8F5571.4070608@multimedia.cx> References: <9d1cf2d50908210746o2859bdb9t17b73120b960223d@mail.gmail.com> <4A8F5571.4070608@multimedia.cx> Message-ID: <4A8FDC82.8020002@aarmstrong.org> Tangentially related, but still important to note! There are seemingly a large majority of games which reinforce typical stereotypes for sure. Films and TV have this issue in the past (and still now) as well, but games do seem to do it a lot more here and now. Interestingly I wonder if any game systems specifically more reinforce sterotypes (intentionally or not - like that Conan MMO "unintentionally" hampering female avatars due to their animations!), rather then the story - which can vary so much depending usually more on the writer and lead designer then the entire game team. However there is a big gender imbalance in all game development teams, so one can only guess. Lara Croft, well, that and a few other key games certainly swing the pendulum one way, that's for sure. I think we need some serious investigation of stereotypes (certainly gender ones) in past games. I loved reading that Star Craft one, hits a great big nail on the head, looking at the game system and design. Thanks for linking to it :) Andrew Mike Melanson wrote: > Devin Monnens wrote: >> Essentially it involves how we deal with games depicting >> objectionable material. I think what it comes down to is a situation >> similar to the Uncle Remus books, which are horribly offensive by >> today's standards but which have historical importance about the >> culture of the time. I think if you look at the worst examples from >> videogames, there's Custer's Revenge which is used as an example in >> many game studies books (such as > > Wait-- there are *game studies* books? :) > > Pursuant to my custom of adding tangentially relevant data to the > discussion, I read this blog post the other day: > > http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/08/well-consider-source.html > > Relevant portion: > > "if you're looking to the game developers of the world for political > correctness, you're looking in the wrong place. I never much liked > Tomb Raider as a game, but perhaps you'll appreciate it more if you > understand that the developers genuinely believed they were engaging > in revolutionary gender outreach by making the protagonist a woman > with large breasts, short shorts, and a gun." > > And that was only 10 years ago. > From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sat Aug 22 07:55:02 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 12:55:02 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] How studios dispose of prototypes and libraries In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50908211620yb833758u54c68a2fee7b3d3a@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d1cf2d50908210746o2859bdb9t17b73120b960223d@mail.gmail.com> <4A8F1933.6060503@aarmstrong.org> <9d1cf2d50908211620yb833758u54c68a2fee7b3d3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A8FDC96.2020206@aarmstrong.org> I meant to finish the sentence "reworked into future game material/ideas" realm. :) oops! Andrew Devin Monnens wrote: > Unfortunately, looks like your first part of the quote got cut off :) > I think it's an interesting discussion - for a really crappy demo like > Raven Blade, was that worth preserving? Certainly the studio has a > right to destroy their own property, but a real question is how > culturally or artistically important is the artifact and for artifacts > of great importance, does the company have a - shall we say? - > responsibility to hold onto those? > > In terms of banning versus speech... Well, it's not that you're not > allowed to tell Uncle Remus stories anymore or create a film like > Birth of a Nation or show blackface, but it's culturally inappropriate > to do so (and I think this is a benefit to our society as a result). > We should be treating games with that same treatment we give film and > literature. I think if we look at violence against women in the same > category, then presenting it for the sake of presenting it and not > being constructive is akin to creating a racist game (rather than say > an artwork about racism), and we should treat it as such. But it's not > like we have control over what other countries can do, and that's a > bit off-topic. > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Andrew Armstrong > > wrote: > > Interesting on the disposal front - horrible atrocities to games > which are released already exist, I'm sure there are a ton which > are never released too :) Most no doubt went further into the " > > As for the second point, if we start judging history by today's > standards, or even locality by today's standards, we'd never get > anywhere. If we're islamic, we'd ban all mohammed-showing games. > If we're Christian, it'd be a hard stance on bible-problematic > games. If we're German, violence is out. There's a ton of problems > without bringing in just general historical-problematic games. > > There's always someone who will hate something, so if a reason is > needed to stop "liking" or even preserving something (a medium, a > specific title or anything) there will be one, valid or not. I > prefer to keep everything around - as for sex games, which the WIG > one went a bit off on, it's a difficult situation - although in > virtual form, I'm not exactly an expert, but it's damn better > something being virtual then real I'd say - as for violent games > too of course, it's all pretty fantastical. I'm pretty impartial > to things being released - whatever the taste - I'm never of the > mindset "ban it" and am quite the opposite, which likely will > conflict with a few people here, but it's the truth, so I'd say > it's all important to keep a record of :) > > Andrew > > Devin Monnens wrote: >> Not sure how most studios deal with development material, but in >> a recent interview with Michael Kelbaugh of Retro Studios, we >> find out they have an interesting - and definitive - solution: >> >> "I always like reading the posts about Raven Blade. There's this >> underground mystery about that game. When you start reading the >> blogs and newsgroups and what have you, there's always this post >> that says, 'Oh, they're going to work on Raven Blade' or 'I >> wonder if they're bringing Raven Blade back?' And at one point I >> went back and had them burn the last copy of Raven Blade -- and >> this was probably two or three years ago -- and I looked at it," >> says Michael Kelbaugh, president of Retro Studios..."I just >> couldn't believe that we even came close to making anything like >> that because it was absolutely horrible." >> >> Despite my game preservation obsession, this brought me a >> chuckle. I think we can learn from it. >> >> In other news, there was an article in the Times the other day >> about how some Tintin comics have been placed in the back room of >> the New York Public Library because they were deemed too racist >> for visitors. They don't mention them by name, but the Tintin >> comics are undoubtedly in the same storage area as the Uncle >> Remus children's books. This brings some interesting things about >> game preservation and also relates to some other current events. >> Now hopefully, this won't get into such a huge long argument that >> it did on the WIG SIG mailing list... >> >> Essentially it involves how we deal with games depicting >> objectionable material. I think what it comes down to is a >> situation similar to the Uncle Remus books, which are horribly >> offensive by today's standards but which have historical >> importance about the culture of the time. I think if you look at >> the worst examples from videogames, there's Custer's Revenge >> which is used as an example in many game studies books (such as >> Miguel Sicart's book on game ethics). I would argue that from a >> purely formal standpoint, even though the material is about as >> offensive as games have become (even in its crude simplicity), >> because it is a work referenced by so many people, it should be >> archived for that reason alone, but kept in a similar category as >> the Uncle Remus books (not that I think there's anything really >> redeeming about Custer's Revenge other than an example of what >> NOT to do - also makes me wonder if anybody tracked down the >> developers and asked them what they were smoking when they made it). >> >> Anyway, I just figured I'd bring these two topics up here to see >> if anyone had any reflections or anything they wanted to add. >> >> -- >> Devin Monnens >> www.deserthat.com >> >> The sleep of Reason produces monsters. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > > -- > Devin Monnens > www.deserthat.com > > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sun Aug 30 06:46:53 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 11:46:53 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] [Monthly SIG Roundup] September 2009 Message-ID: <4A9A589D.8090804@aarmstrong.org> Hope everyone has had a good summer, since it appears to be now over in the UK :( Preservation SIG August 2009 Work We have another archive listed in our contributions information , and work has begun on more encyclopaedic-based information on each institution (if we're not going to record this history, who is? :) ). Bibliography work is progressing insofar as more backend planning. The SIG hasn't got any other ongoing projects right now, but if you are interested, at all, in preservation to help us with our projects (and if you think something is missing, please tell us). Future Work for September 2009 There is bits and pieces to get on with, nothing planned this month. Mailing List Discussions If you've not joined our mailing list , please do so. We've never tried using our forums it seems :) we stick to old-fangled email. This will eventually change when the IGDA site changes over - although those wanting email can still get it. August had some small discussions - online DRM , a call for some obscure footage from Gnop or Operation Desert Storm , details on how the iPhone metadata information was indexed , interesting info on computers self-playing games , a game history related video and finally a discussion on how studios dispose of prototypes and libraries . Preservation SIG Blog Updates / Links /Have I missed anything this month? Then email it in to preservation_news @ igda.org !/ * theLogBook.com's Classic Gaming Expo 2003 Footage DVD * TNT Arcade Burns Down * Multimedia Mike and Cataloguing iPhone Apps Final Thoughts I've personally not invested as much time as I should be into the SIG, partially due to other IGDA things going on - make sure, if you are an IGDA member, to stay informed about what is happening in the org, and if you can, help improve it too :) The reason for this being available before the start of September, is my trip to DiGRA next week (start of September), helping to present the SIG's white paper, as well as seeing some fascinating talks no doubt. Andrew Armstrong IGDA Game Preservation SIG Site/Blog editor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sun Aug 30 07:32:24 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 12:32:24 +0100 Subject: [game_preservation] Game History related video In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50908132026g7b780c79p91812bab5550e9ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d1cf2d50908132026g7b780c79p91812bab5550e9ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A9A6348.9080104@aarmstrong.org> Got around to watching this just now, and yeah, weird stuff - NSFW in parts, but pretty fun and seamless :) Andrew Devin Monnens wrote: > http://vimeo.com/1743331 > > This video blends game history together rather seamlessly. It was > produced as part of a documentary. Warning about some completely > ridiculous NSFW towards the end. > > -- > Devin Monnens > www.deserthat.com > > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: