From andrew at aarmstrong.org Thu Jan 1 14:05:54 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 19:05:54 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] [Monthly SIG Roundup] January 2009 Message-ID: <495D1412.7060706@aarmstrong.org> January comes to us, with a new year and a slow down in project work just to the Christmas period, we have however got news of my efforts doing a SIG icon, and the white paper is still being worked on. Preservation SIG Updates Work is still ongoing on the white paper "Before It's Too Late: A Digital Game Preservation White Paper ", we'll see it hopefully finished this month. On the internet archive front, others have updated the C64 playthroughs collection (with games like Wizard, Zorro and Slamball), the videogame replays has a new one for Megaman 6 , and I've uploaded the Red Alert 3 intro and Mirrors Edge Still Alive videos, and for previews, ones for Black Mesa Source , Max Payne 2 , and a lot for Mirrors Edge - admittedly I meant to get more done this month. We're also investigating new collections of non-video items for the Internet Archive. I'll report on this if we get anywhere on it. December Preservation SIG Work Among our memorials work (still in progress) and white paper, we also have to decide on the SIG Icon - I've put up a design for the icon on the mailing list, where comments are welcome. I've also put forward the suggestion for a project based on making a list of recently merged or closed companies , so we can get the word out to those companies and people to preserve material (or offer any help we can) as a last resort for securing their history. Mailing List Discussions If you've not joined our mailing list , please do so. We've never tried using our forums it seems :) we stick to old-fangled email. In December we have had discussions on What Happens To Code From Failed Projects? , Also make sure to put forward opinions on our SIG icon. This is the latest design , and earlier discussions have some alternative ideas. Preservation SIG Blog Updates / Links /Have I missed anything this month? Then email it in to preservation_news @ igda.org !/ * IGN Retro: Revising History: The Crash of '83 * Legend of Zelda Retrospective Vids * VirtualBox Gets OpenGL Acceleration Support * Adventure Game Interfaces * Your Sinclair Final Issue * The Making of... Dune II * Sega Master System 101: A Beginner's Guide * Fifteen Years Of Doom, Ten years of the Dreamcast * More Save The Videogame * Blu-Ray Discs Possibly Starting To Bit Rot? * Chris Kohler's Retro Systems For Sale * My Month With Christmas Lemmings--Updated Daily! * GameSetVideo Treasures - The Art Of The Game Mockumentary * Old Paradigms and a Podcast * Three pioneers: a historic picture and The Original Habitat Promotional Video * Atari Nerd Interviews The First Mainstream Game Journalist - Michael Schrage Of Rolling Stone * Zork PDP-11 Manual PDF * The Essential Taito * Rogue Leaders: The Story of LucasArts signings Final Thoughts I'll be getting the SIG's logo (+favicon, banner) finalised, although it can be changed at a later date of course, and experimenting with themes. So watch out, I might post on that too at some point! :) Andrew Armstrong IGDA Game Preservation SIG Site/Blog editor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 06:28:44 2009 From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 13:28:44 +0200 Subject: [game_preservation] [Monthly SIG Roundup] January 2009 In-Reply-To: <495D1412.7060706@aarmstrong.org> References: <495D1412.7060706@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <495dfa71.190c660a.55a0.ffffff31@mx.google.com> Andrew, Thanks for these links. I have added your blog to my favorites. I especially recommend this link: http://www.racketboy.com/retro/2006/09/games-that-defined-sega-master-system .html Stuart From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Armstrong Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 9:06 PM To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG Subject: [game_preservation] [Monthly SIG Roundup] January 2009 January comes to us, with a new year and a slow down in project work just to the Christmas period, we have however got news of my efforts doing a SIG icon, and the white paper is still being worked on. Preservation SIG Updates Work is still ongoing on the white paper "Before It's Too Late: A Digital Game Preservation White Paper", we'll see it hopefully finished this month. On the internet archive front, others have updated the C64 playthroughs collection (with games like Wizard, Zorro and Slamball), the videogame replays has a new one for Megaman 6 , and I've uploaded the Red Alert 3 intro and Mirrors Edge Still Alive videos, and for previews, ones for Black Mesa Source, Max Payne 2, and a lot for Mirrors Edge - admittedly I meant to get more done this month. We're also investigating new collections of non-video items for the Internet Archive. I'll report on this if we get anywhere on it. December Preservation SIG Work Among our memorials work (still in progress) and white paper, we also have to decide on the SIG Icon - I've put up a design for the icon on the mailing list, where comments are welcome. I've also put forward the suggestion for a project based on making a list of recently merged or closed companies, so we can get the word out to those companies and people to preserve material (or offer any help we can) as a last resort for securing their history. Mailing List Discussions If you've not joined our mailing list , please do so. We've never tried using our forums it seems :) we stick to old-fangled email. In December we have had discussions on What Happens To Code From Failed Projects?, Also make sure to put forward opinions on our SIG icon. This is the latest design, and earlier discussions have some alternative ideas. Preservation SIG Blog Updates / Links Have I missed anything this month? Then email it in to preservation_news @ igda.org ! * IGN Retro: Revising History: The Crash of '83 * Legend of Zelda Retrospective Vids * VirtualBox Gets OpenGL Acceleration Support * Adventure Game Interfaces * Your Sinclair Final Issue * The Making of... Dune II * Sega Master System 101: A Beginner's Guide * Fifteen Years Of Doom, Ten years of the Dreamcast * More Save The Videogame * Blu-Ray Discs Possibly Starting To Bit Rot? * Chris Kohler's Retro Systems For Sale * My Month With Christmas Lemmings--Updated Daily! * GameSetVideo Treasures - The Art Of The Game Mockumentary * Old Paradigms and a Podcast * Three pioneers: a historic picture and The Original Habitat Promotional Video * Atari Nerd Interviews The First Mainstream Game Journalist - Michael Schrage Of Rolling Stone * Zork PDP-11 Manual PDF * The Essential Taito * Rogue Leaders: The Story of LucasArts signings Final Thoughts I'll be getting the SIG's logo (+favicon, banner) finalised, although it can be changed at a later date of course, and experimenting with themes. So watch out, I might post on that too at some point! :) Andrew Armstrong IGDA Game Preservation SIG Site/Blog editor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Thu Jan 8 11:42:51 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:42:51 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Wikipedia thoughts? Message-ID: <49662D0B.6000801@aarmstrong.org> From some recent curfuffles on Wikipedia deleting MUD article(s): http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2009/01/losing_the_thre.html http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2009/01/more_on_thresho.html I wanted to know if anyone on the list had thoughts on Wikipedia - as a resource, as a solution or problem, or whatever. I'm just interested, I've not investigated it much myself, and only ever use the encyclopaedia for general reading, but the quality of some subjects is pretty poor (or, as we can see, not even there now). Hopefully the situation will improve over time. I was also going to see what perhaps Mobygames were doing to expand their database (if they were going to) - there is a lot of credits, covers and screenshots, but not much actual written content about the games in the database, which is a shame really. Andrew From bswanson at lib.ucdavis.edu Thu Jan 8 13:28:27 2009 From: bswanson at lib.ucdavis.edu (Bernadette Daly Swanson) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:28:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [game_preservation] Wikipedia thoughts? In-Reply-To: <49662D0B.6000801@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <1770607883.1423471231439307309.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu> Hi Everyone, I have been on the list for a while and am learning a lot from the discussions. I work with one of the earlier editors of Wikipedia, Phoebe Ayers, and she and two others from Wikipedia have written this book that may give some more insight in how best to use the site as a content developers/editors. I have just bought it so I don't yet have any suggestions, other than millions upon millions of us use it. I will provide the link to the table of contents in case that helps in terms of using Wikipedia and dealing with such issues: http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/159327176X/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link (the arrow at the bottom right of image will advance it) Ben ____________________________________________ Bernadette Daly Swanson Reference Librarian Carlson Health Sciences Library University of California, Davis 1 Shields Avenue, Davis, CA 95616-5292 Phone: (530) 752-7637 http://www.lib.ucdavis.edu/dept/hsl/ HVX Silverstar in Second Life http://www.youtube.com/hvxsilverstar ----- "Andrew Armstrong" wrote: > From some recent curfuffles on Wikipedia deleting MUD article(s): > > http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2009/01/losing_the_thre.html > http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2009/01/more_on_thresho.html > > I wanted to know if anyone on the list had thoughts on Wikipedia - as > a > resource, as a solution or problem, or whatever. I'm just interested, > > I've not investigated it much myself, and only ever use the > encyclopaedia for general reading, but the quality of some subjects is > > pretty poor (or, as we can see, not even there now). > > Hopefully the situation will improve over time. I was also going to > see > what perhaps Mobygames were doing to expand their database (if they > were > going to) - there is a lot of credits, covers and screenshots, but not > > much actual written content about the games in the database, which is > a > shame really. > > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation From andrew at aarmstrong.org Thu Jan 8 13:34:48 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 18:34:48 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Wikipedia thoughts? In-Reply-To: <1770607883.1423471231439307309.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu> References: <1770607883.1423471231439307309.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: <49664748.6010209@aarmstrong.org> When you've read the notability and research sections, give us your thoughts :D I'm interested in the discussions revolving around the misuse of supposedly good policies, the horrible politics and internal people just wanting to destroy rather then create, and the gist that no one can get into it unless they have hours of time even if they are an expert, because it's more work then it's worth. I know how to edit a wiki, I know why certain rules exist for wikipedia, but some of it is still a bit too much into political territory, not actual editorial territory for my liking. Oh, and I do remember the earlier days - yes, such a time when there were not multicolour signatures, and articles could have trivia, and I must say remembering it might be rose tinted, but it didn't seem half bad back then despite the lack of some content :) Maybe this Phoebe would agree, maybe not. And feel free to raise discussions here too, I've been a bit too busy to go digging into other topics, we kinda need more action around here. Andrew Bernadette Daly Swanson wrote: > Hi Everyone, > I have been on the list for a while and am learning a lot from the discussions. > I work with one of the earlier editors of Wikipedia, Phoebe Ayers, and she and two others from Wikipedia have written this book that may give some more insight in how best to use the site as a content developers/editors. > I have just bought it so I don't yet have any suggestions, other than millions upon millions of us use it. > I will provide the link to the table of contents in case that helps in terms of using Wikipedia and dealing with such issues: > http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/159327176X/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link > (the arrow at the bottom right of image will advance it) > > Ben > ____________________________________________ > Bernadette Daly Swanson > Reference Librarian > Carlson Health Sciences Library > University of California, Davis > 1 Shields Avenue, Davis, CA 95616-5292 > Phone: (530) 752-7637 > http://www.lib.ucdavis.edu/dept/hsl/ > HVX Silverstar in Second Life > http://www.youtube.com/hvxsilverstar > > ----- "Andrew Armstrong" wrote: > > >> From some recent curfuffles on Wikipedia deleting MUD article(s): >> >> http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2009/01/losing_the_thre.html >> http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2009/01/more_on_thresho.html >> >> I wanted to know if anyone on the list had thoughts on Wikipedia - as >> a >> resource, as a solution or problem, or whatever. I'm just interested, >> >> I've not investigated it much myself, and only ever use the >> encyclopaedia for general reading, but the quality of some subjects is >> >> pretty poor (or, as we can see, not even there now). >> >> Hopefully the situation will improve over time. I was also going to >> see >> what perhaps Mobygames were doing to expand their database (if they >> were >> going to) - there is a lot of credits, covers and screenshots, but not >> >> much actual written content about the games in the database, which is >> a >> shame really. >> >> Andrew >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lowood at stanford.edu Thu Jan 8 15:51:32 2009 From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:51:32 -0800 Subject: [game_preservation] Wikipedia thoughts? In-Reply-To: <49664748.6010209@aarmstrong.org> References: <1770607883.1423471231439307309.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu> <49664748.6010209@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <49666754.8040200@stanford.edu> Andrew, Well, a lot can be said about this controversy and about Wikipedia in general. My interest is in what seems to me to be a rather arbitrary set of criteria imposed by -- hmm, who? -- at Wikipedia with regard to what counts as documentation. If the argument for Wikipedia is open to all, then fine, open to all. If the argument is that the content needs to be filtered and vetted, then who are these guys? Maybe it would make sense to ask historians or game developers or members of our SIG or somebody knowledgeable in a particular field to act as, shudder, /editor./ And, by the way, as the criteria are applied, is any information transparently available about why they are applied, what historians would call historiography or archivists might call documentation strategy? It just seems very odd to me, a vetting structure without any stake in the field that is being discussed, such that someone like Bartle or Koster could be dismissed as an being competent to write on the subject. Henry Andrew Armstrong wrote: > When you've read the notability and research sections, give us your > thoughts :D > > I'm interested in the discussions revolving around the misuse of > supposedly good policies, the horrible politics and internal people > just wanting to destroy rather then create, and the gist that no one > can get into it unless they have hours of time even if they are an > expert, because it's more work then it's worth. > > I know how to edit a wiki, I know why certain rules exist for > wikipedia, but some of it is still a bit too much into political > territory, not actual editorial territory for my liking. > > Oh, and I do remember the earlier days - yes, such a time when there > were not multicolour signatures, and articles could have trivia, and I > must say remembering it might be rose tinted, but it didn't seem half > bad back then despite the lack of some content :) Maybe this Phoebe > would agree, maybe not. > > And feel free to raise discussions here too, I've been a bit too busy > to go digging into other topics, we kinda need more action around here. > > Andrew > > Bernadette Daly Swanson wrote: >> Hi Everyone, >> I have been on the list for a while and am learning a lot from the discussions. >> I work with one of the earlier editors of Wikipedia, Phoebe Ayers, and she and two others from Wikipedia have written this book that may give some more insight in how best to use the site as a content developers/editors. >> I have just bought it so I don't yet have any suggestions, other than millions upon millions of us use it. >> I will provide the link to the table of contents in case that helps in terms of using Wikipedia and dealing with such issues: >> http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/159327176X/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link >> (the arrow at the bottom right of image will advance it) >> >> Ben >> ____________________________________________ >> Bernadette Daly Swanson >> Reference Librarian >> Carlson Health Sciences Library >> University of California, Davis >> 1 Shields Avenue, Davis, CA 95616-5292 >> Phone: (530) 752-7637 >> http://www.lib.ucdavis.edu/dept/hsl/ >> HVX Silverstar in Second Life >> http://www.youtube.com/hvxsilverstar >> >> ----- "Andrew Armstrong" wrote: >> >> >>> From some recent curfuffles on Wikipedia deleting MUD article(s): >>> >>> http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2009/01/losing_the_thre.html >>> http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2009/01/more_on_thresho.html >>> >>> I wanted to know if anyone on the list had thoughts on Wikipedia - as >>> a >>> resource, as a solution or problem, or whatever. I'm just interested, >>> >>> I've not investigated it much myself, and only ever use the >>> encyclopaedia for general reading, but the quality of some subjects is >>> >>> pretty poor (or, as we can see, not even there now). >>> >>> Hopefully the situation will improve over time. I was also going to >>> see >>> what perhaps Mobygames were doing to expand their database (if they >>> were >>> going to) - there is a lot of credits, covers and screenshots, but not >>> >>> much actual written content about the games in the database, which is >>> a >>> shame really. >>> >>> Andrew >>> _______________________________________________ >>> game_preservation mailing list >>> game_preservation at igda.org >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- Henry Lowood, Ph.D. Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; Film & Media Collections HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall Stanford University Libraries Stanford CA 94305-6004 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood From andrew at aarmstrong.org Thu Jan 8 16:06:12 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 21:06:12 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Wikipedia thoughts? In-Reply-To: <49666754.8040200@stanford.edu> References: <1770607883.1423471231439307309.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu> <49664748.6010209@aarmstrong.org> <49666754.8040200@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <49666AC4.8000106@aarmstrong.org> Oh, yes, yes, this was something major that Raph kept bringing up - that he would NOT be allowed to be an expert, and that historical articles are frowned upon in general that is, since it isn't pop culture so hasn't got the generally newer "sources" and experts. The reason for not being allowed is because they made it - it's not a neutral point of view (sigh). That seems a major oversight, and I'm not exactly flawing the whole here (it's a diamond in the rough of user generated sites), there are some experts on there, but there is no a standard to be an editor/admin. A few other sites do much better on this front, but usually only specialised sources of information already (Mobygames, for instance, checks changes with an editor who, hopefully, is better trained in videogame history then most). Admins also seem to roam around getting in on things they have no clue about, as might have been in the case of this MUD. There is a definite need for this. I wish they had a formal system to have experts brought on board to, basically, edit or at least say what is right and wrong, notable or whatever. It's not like having a few days in limbo is difficult for any historical or scientific topic. Unless it is a person or new event, there is no real reason for real time editing. Either that or at least make sure articles noted as being important by said experts are not deleted, so can always be amended if bad data is added but not removed from the site entirely. Andrew Henry Lowood wrote: > Andrew, > > Well, a lot can be said about this controversy and about Wikipedia in > general. My interest is in what seems to me to be a rather arbitrary > set of criteria imposed by -- hmm, who? -- at Wikipedia with regard to > what counts as documentation. If the argument for Wikipedia is open > to all, then fine, open to all. If the argument is that the content > needs to be filtered and vetted, then who are these guys? Maybe it > would make sense to ask historians or game developers or members of > our SIG or somebody knowledgeable in a particular field to act as, > shudder, /editor./ And, by the way, as the criteria are applied, is > any information transparently available about why they are applied, > what historians would call historiography or archivists might call > documentation strategy? It just seems very odd to me, a vetting > structure without any stake in the field that is being discussed, such > that someone like Bartle or Koster could be dismissed as an being > competent to write on the subject. > > Henry > > Andrew Armstrong wrote: >> When you've read the notability and research sections, give us your >> thoughts :D >> >> I'm interested in the discussions revolving around the misuse of >> supposedly good policies, the horrible politics and internal people >> just wanting to destroy rather then create, and the gist that no one >> can get into it unless they have hours of time even if they are an >> expert, because it's more work then it's worth. >> >> I know how to edit a wiki, I know why certain rules exist for >> wikipedia, but some of it is still a bit too much into political >> territory, not actual editorial territory for my liking. >> >> Oh, and I do remember the earlier days - yes, such a time when there >> were not multicolour signatures, and articles could have trivia, and >> I must say remembering it might be rose tinted, but it didn't seem >> half bad back then despite the lack of some content :) Maybe this >> Phoebe would agree, maybe not. >> >> And feel free to raise discussions here too, I've been a bit too busy >> to go digging into other topics, we kinda need more action around here. >> >> Andrew >> >> Bernadette Daly Swanson wrote: >>> Hi Everyone, I have been on the list for a while and am learning a >>> lot from the discussions. >>> I work with one of the earlier editors of Wikipedia, Phoebe Ayers, >>> and she and two others from Wikipedia have written this book that >>> may give some more insight in how best to use the site as a content >>> developers/editors. >>> I have just bought it so I don't yet have any suggestions, other >>> than millions upon millions of us use it. >>> I will provide the link to the table of contents in case that >>> helps in terms of using Wikipedia and dealing with such issues: >>> http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/159327176X/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link >>> (the arrow at the bottom right of image will advance it) >>> >>> Ben >>> ____________________________________________ >>> Bernadette Daly Swanson Reference Librarian >>> Carlson Health Sciences Library >>> University of California, Davis >>> 1 Shields Avenue, Davis, CA 95616-5292 >>> Phone: (530) 752-7637 >>> http://www.lib.ucdavis.edu/dept/hsl/ >>> HVX Silverstar in Second Life >>> http://www.youtube.com/hvxsilverstar >>> >>> ----- "Andrew Armstrong" wrote: >>> >>> >>>> From some recent curfuffles on Wikipedia deleting MUD article(s): >>>> >>>> http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2009/01/losing_the_thre.html >>>> http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2009/01/more_on_thresho.html >>>> >>>> I wanted to know if anyone on the list had thoughts on Wikipedia - as >>>> a resource, as a solution or problem, or whatever. I'm just >>>> interested, >>>> >>>> I've not investigated it much myself, and only ever use the >>>> encyclopaedia for general reading, but the quality of some subjects is >>>> >>>> pretty poor (or, as we can see, not even there now). >>>> >>>> Hopefully the situation will improve over time. I was also going to >>>> see what perhaps Mobygames were doing to expand their database (if >>>> they >>>> were going to) - there is a lot of credits, covers and screenshots, >>>> but not >>>> >>>> much actual written content about the games in the database, which is >>>> a shame really. >>>> >>>> Andrew >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> game_preservation mailing list >>>> game_preservation at igda.org >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> game_preservation mailing list >>> game_preservation at igda.org >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> > From andrew at aarmstrong.org Thu Jan 8 19:44:36 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 00:44:36 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Calling for resources! Books! Websites! Whatever! Message-ID: <49669DF4.4070907@aarmstrong.org> I'm now board of not updating the resources and projects pages: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/Resources http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/Projects I need your links, books, website and whatever you think is historically related to videogames. I'm more aiming at broader sites with videogame knowledge (so I'll be adding http://www.wikia.com/ and http://www.magweasel.com/ for instance). However, if you can provide a specific article, great! (better if it covers more then one game however). I will be trying (in between getting a job, grr, and doing some other bits) sorting out the page at least filling it with random links for now. In the future I hope to get the domains I've had for a while for the Digital Game Canon project online and with a quick and dirty PHP/MySQL solution so I can add these links in much better ways (so I can tag them, have source lines generated, have boxes for the URL or item name, page references, etc.). ALL HELP IS APPRECIATED! Honestly, there are a LOT of sites I've visited I need to add now, but also there are a lot I have not! One of them may be yours! Post it! And if there is any other site which helps list game history/preservation projects, resources and links, please, I'd love to know of it :) Thanks, Andrew From andrew at aarmstrong.org Fri Jan 9 13:01:47 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:01:47 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] SIG Icon - Joystick and Belljar Message-ID: <4967910B.7040803@aarmstrong.org> Okay, final thoughts on the latest design. If no one responds I'll be going with my decision which can be changed later if need be, but at that point, someone else will have to actually make it or have one ready. The designs as they stand are all here: http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/ The thinner glass design (with the odd handle, which I could redo a bit): http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Belljar+over+Joystick+v2.png.html http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Banner+with+Visitor+Text.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=2 And a doubled thick icon (with a better handle too): http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Belljar+over+Joystick+thicker+glass.png.html http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Thicker+Icon+Banner+with+Visitor+Text.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=2 Any thoughts to the colours or design I'll take on board. If the icon is crap and you have a much better idea, please say, we hardly had any ideas to start with ;) and I don't think a floppy disk would go in a belljar, heh. I might do one last bit of altering on this design on my own but it won't be for a few days. Andrew From lowood at stanford.edu Fri Jan 9 19:46:30 2009 From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:46:30 -0800 Subject: [game_preservation] Status of DMCA exemption relevant to game preservation Message-ID: <4967EFE6.50609@stanford.edu> I am forwarding an important e-mail from our Library of Congress project group from Rachel Donahue at UIUC. Some of you probably know that the original exemption discussed before was spearheaded by the Internet Archive (with the point of the spear being our own Simon Carless, past chair of the SIG), with some support from Stanford and others. One of the many problems with DMCA is that these exemptions only last three years (I believe), which is ridiculous. Anyway, please read Rachel's note. Maybe there is someone here who will want to take up the cause and look into what can be done in the short time-frame available, if anything at all is feasible. Rachel's note: A new set of DMCA exemptions is up for approval. Unfortunately, the old exemption that we semi-relied on: "Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and that require the original media or hardware as a condition of access, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace." Has not made the list of proposed classes, and I'm not sure that old exemptions are automatically considered for renewal. There's a procedure for "untimely submissions of proposed classes based on exceptional or unforeseen circumstances," but it requires a petition and a good defense of why it couldn't have been submitted eariler and why it should be considered after the deadline. There are a few relating to computer programs and literature that we may want to consider commenting on. The comment period closes February 2, 2009. All of the proposals, and the comment submission form, are available here: http://www.copyright.gov/1201/ One thing in our favor is that, "this rulemaking addresses only the prohibition on the conduct of circumventing measures that control "access" to copyrighted works," and all other activities continue to be covered by section 106/fair use. That doesn't save us from contract law, but it does make preservation actions a bit less legally grey. Cheers, Rach Rachel Donahue Graduate Assistant Maryland Institute for Technology in the Humanities University of Maryland, College Park College Park, MD -- Henry Lowood Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; Film & Media Collections HRG, Green Library 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602 From andrew at aarmstrong.org Fri Jan 9 19:49:52 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 00:49:52 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Status of DMCA exemption relevant to game preservation In-Reply-To: <4967EFE6.50609@stanford.edu> References: <4967EFE6.50609@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <4967F0B0.7060208@aarmstrong.org> Interesting, and if I was in the USA I'd really want to help. I hope you get some support for putting comments forward for this! It's a real shame circumventing "DRM" or "copy protection" is special for software, sigh. (It's like taking your cake and eating it too). Shall I post this on the blog? Andrew Henry Lowood wrote: > I am forwarding an important e-mail from our Library of Congress > project group from Rachel Donahue at UIUC. Some of you probably know > that the original exemption discussed before was spearheaded by the > Internet Archive (with the point of the spear being our own Simon > Carless, past chair of the SIG), with some support from Stanford and > others. One of the many problems with DMCA is that these exemptions > only last three years (I believe), which is ridiculous. Anyway, > please read Rachel's note. Maybe there is someone here who will want > to take up the cause and look into what can be done in the short > time-frame available, if anything at all is feasible. > > Rachel's note: > > A new set of DMCA exemptions is up for approval. Unfortunately, the > old exemption that we semi-relied on: > > "Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have > become obsolete and that require the original media or hardware as a > condition of access, when circumvention is accomplished for the > purpose of preservation or archival reproduction of published digital > works by a library or archive. A format shall be considered obsolete > if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work > stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer > reasonably available in the commercial marketplace." > > Has not made the list of proposed classes, and I'm not sure that old > exemptions are automatically considered for renewal. There's a > procedure for "untimely submissions of proposed classes based on > exceptional or unforeseen circumstances," but it requires a petition > and a good defense of why it couldn't have been submitted eariler and > why it should be considered after the deadline. > > There are a few relating to computer programs and literature that we > may want to consider commenting on. The comment period closes > February 2, 2009. All of the proposals, and the comment submission > form, are available here: > > http://www.copyright.gov/1201/ > > One thing in our favor is that, "this rulemaking addresses only the > prohibition on the conduct of circumventing measures that control > "access" to copyrighted works," and all other activities continue to > be covered by section 106/fair use. That doesn't save us from > contract law, but it does make preservation actions a bit less > legally grey. > > Cheers, > Rach > > Rachel Donahue > Graduate Assistant > Maryland Institute for Technology in the Humanities > University of Maryland, College Park > College Park, MD > > From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jan 9 21:44:14 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:44:14 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Wikipedia thoughts? In-Reply-To: <49662D0B.6000801@aarmstrong.org> References: <49662D0B.6000801@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <49680B7E.3090805@oldskool.org> Andrew Armstrong wrote: > I wanted to know if anyone on the list had thoughts on Wikipedia - as a > resource, as a solution or problem, or whatever. I'm just interested, > I've not investigated it much myself, and only ever use the > encyclopaedia for general reading, but the quality of some subjects is > pretty poor (or, as we can see, not even there now). Congrats, you've discovered the cancer of Wikipedia: Not Notable. People are free to delete entire articles because they think they're not important/relevant enough, while hypocritically ignoring the core slogan "sum of all human knowledge". I gave up on Wikipedia a long time ago when I wrote 90% of the CGA article only to have entire sections jettisoned with "no original research". That's not why I gave up on it -- I gave up on it when I took the exact same information and put it on webpages I host, then put it back into Wikipedia with references, et voila, it was accepted. That's idiotic. > Hopefully the situation will improve over time. I was also going to see > what perhaps Mobygames were doing to expand their database (if they were > going to) - there is a lot of credits, covers and screenshots, but not > much actual written content about the games in the database, which is a > shame really. MobyGames is at the mercy of the people who contribute to it; some games have a ton of information you can cull; others don't. MobyGames tries to keep the descriptions objective, but the reviews and trivia contain a lot of the hidden details. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From andrew at aarmstrong.org Fri Jan 9 21:56:21 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 02:56:21 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Wikipedia thoughts? In-Reply-To: <49680B7E.3090805@oldskool.org> References: <49662D0B.6000801@aarmstrong.org> <49680B7E.3090805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <49680E55.9000004@aarmstrong.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > I gave up on Wikipedia a long time ago when I wrote 90% of the CGA > article only to have entire sections jettisoned with "no original > research". That's not why I gave up on it -- I gave up on it when I > took the exact same information and put it on webpages I host, then > put it back into Wikipedia with references, et voila, it was accepted. > That's idiotic. Urg, not a nice story :( I see why you gave up on it. Like I said, I have avoided it, this won't make me want to start now I think. > MobyGames is at the mercy of the people who contribute to it; some > games have a ton of information you can cull; others don't. MobyGames > tries to keep the descriptions objective, but the reviews and trivia > contain a lot of the hidden details. Well, the trivia is good for some odd details (and descriptions limited, bit fairly okay), but there are other missing bits and pieces (intentionally left out or not :) ) that other places have. These are things like deeper information about how the game worked, the story or gameplay, and so forth. Basically, a give database entry is fine, but you don't usually have much of a clue on how a game might play, or why it was good/bad, what it used from past games, what future games took from it, and where it fits into people's histories. BTW: I don't mean reviews as such, which (let's be honest) barely contain any information about the game, since they're so short and written by people who either love it or hate it, hehe. In fact, that's one reason I sometimes need to check Wikipedia or Wakia, is to know more about how it plays, and any important details about it (despite it's flaws, like not even having the game on record, or removing large amounts of the useful information). It's difficult to, however, draw the line I guess between Database and more general sites. :D Thanks for explaining that. If you do solicit possible changes to the site's content fields, I'd be happy to help with some of it, but no worries if it's "okay as it is". I'm going to try and get the canon games the SIG has written up in some detail this year, with what research I can cobble together from third parties and my own experiences, hopefully that'll give me some experience at seeing how such a site goes to a degree, heh. Andrew From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 10 00:18:28 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:18:28 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Wikipedia thoughts? In-Reply-To: <49680E55.9000004@aarmstrong.org> References: <49662D0B.6000801@aarmstrong.org> <49680B7E.3090805@oldskool.org> <49680E55.9000004@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <49682FA4.1050305@oldskool.org> Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Basically, a give database entry is fine, but > you don't usually have much of a clue on how a game might play, or why > it was good/bad, what it used from past games, what future games took > from it, and where it fits into people's histories. That is typically what you can read from the reviews, which are allowed to be as subjective as the author wants to be. > BTW: I don't mean reviews as such, which (let's be honest) barely > contain any information about the game, since they're so short and > written by people who either love it or hate it, hehe. You haven't been reading the right reviews then :-) Here's one I pulled in less than a minute which not only delves into gameplay minutuae but compares it to a prior game: http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/fallout-2/reviews/reviewerId,6226/ I'm not saying Moby is perfect, nor am I saying that that kind of information belongs in a "review" section. I'm merely saying that not all of the reviews are short and lack information. When MobyGames was designed, it was meant to be a historic record, and for that, we had to keep all of the details objective. That's why "why it was good/bad...what future games took from it, and where it fits into people's histories" is not implicitly in the main description. Reviews are allowed to be subjective because that information needs to be recorded, obviously, but when it's done as part of the review, it is explicitly marked as "this is my opinion, others may differ". > It's difficult to, however, draw the line I guess between Database and > more general sites. :D Thanks for explaining that. If you do solicit > possible changes to the site's content fields, I'd be happy to help with > some of it, but no worries if it's "okay as it is". Any page can have information submitted to correct what is there; there is a "contribute" entry under User Actions on the left-side column. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sat Jan 10 09:06:23 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 14:06:23 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Wikipedia thoughts? In-Reply-To: <49682FA4.1050305@oldskool.org> References: <49662D0B.6000801@aarmstrong.org> <49680B7E.3090805@oldskool.org> <49680E55.9000004@aarmstrong.org> <49682FA4.1050305@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4968AB5F.5050905@aarmstrong.org> Jim Leonard wrote: >> It's difficult to, however, draw the line I guess between Database >> and more general sites. :D Thanks for explaining that. If you do >> solicit possible changes to the site's content fields, I'd be happy >> to help with some of it, but no worries if it's "okay as it is". > > Any page can have information submitted to correct what is there; > there is a "contribute" entry under User Actions on the left-side column. Yeah, I've done one or two minor contributions. I don't have much information I feel valid in contributing, and I am not going to start putting it in "reviews" (which I can't write). I meant more if there was going to be more in depth (and yes, objective) text fields added, it'd be interesting to see. I mean, sure, reviews, great, but hardly researched objective or, usually, that informative. Factual content about what happened on release, the marketing of the game, patches, after release support, how the game plays and any surrounding culture (although that can stray into opinion of sorts), as well as any news items for it (including controversy, professional criticism, reports of how well it sold or whatever). For example; the Fallout 2 review - there is no mention of the word "bug" - something which plagued the original release (as it is documented elsewhere, foretold by saying it was, basically, very obviously rushed to completion), and even after the patches many problems persisted (which fan patches helped with). Maybe another review would mention this, it'd mean searching them all. :) Anyway, no real matter, it's a noble aim just to get the information there already for all the entered titles, hehe :) I just wanted to further explain basically why reviews can't really cope with it all, although yes, the reviews are fine for outside the mandate of objectiveness. Thanks for your thoughts on it all anyway! Andrew From chris at artfulgamer.com Sat Jan 10 12:56:21 2009 From: chris at artfulgamer.com (Chris Lepine) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:56:21 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Calling for resources! Books! Websites! Whatever! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Andrew, I can recommend a few books on the subject of video games that I've read over the years. AFAIK, none are available as a free download ... but they do provide a great sense of game history: Dungeons and Desktops, by Matt Barton http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Desktops-History-Computer-Role-playing/ dp/1568814119 (probably the most comprehensive history of role playing games ever written - he literally reviews a huge number of games, talks about their design, style, etc) Masters of Doom: How Two Guys Created an Empire and Transformed Pop Culture, by David Kushner http://www.amazon.com/Masters-Doom-Created-Transformed-Culture/dp/ 0375505245 (the history of id software - very good storytelling, and insights into the personalities of the two Johns) The Ultimate History of Video Games: From Pong to Pokemon, by Steven L. Kent http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-History-Video-Games-Pokemon/dp/0761536434 (more of a referential history of video games) Dungeons and Dreamers: The Rise of Computer Game Culture from Geek to Chic, by Brad King & John Borland http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dreamers-Rise-Computer-Culture/dp/ 0072228881 (some good storytelling that follows the life of Richard Garriott among others - it gave me a good sense for how Ultima was conceived in relation to his personal life) Halcyon Days: Interviews with Classic Computer and Video Game Programmers, by James Hague http://www.dadgum.com/halcyon/ (free, interesting, interviews with some of the big names of the 80s and early 90s - it gave me a sense for the development challenges that developers face) And although these are only tangentially related, books on the development of the Commodore 64 and Apple //e are extremely important for understanding the history of video games as they helped to create the possibility for mass-market computer games: Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution, Steven Levy http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/729 On The Edge: The Spectacular Rise and Fall of Commodore, by Brian Bagnall http://www.variantpress.com/books/on-the-edge (seems to be temporarily Out of Stock) Hope that helps. - Chris --- The Artful Gamer: In Search of the Lyrical and Poetic in Video Games http://www.artfulgamer.com > Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 00:44:36 +0000 > From: Andrew Armstrong > Subject: [game_preservation] Calling for resources! Books! Websites! > Whatever! > To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG > Message-ID: <49669DF4.4070907 at aarmstrong.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I'm now board of not updating the resources and projects pages: > > http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/Resources > http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/Projects > > I need your links, books, website and whatever you think is > historically > related to videogames. I'm more aiming at broader sites with videogame > knowledge (so I'll be adding http://www.wikia.com/ and > http://www.magweasel.com/ for instance). However, if you can provide a > specific article, great! (better if it covers more then one game > however). > > I will be trying (in between getting a job, grr, and doing some other > bits) sorting out the page at least filling it with random links for > now. In the future I hope to get the domains I've had for a while for > the Digital Game Canon project online and with a quick and dirty > PHP/MySQL solution so I can add these links in much better ways (so I > can tag them, have source lines generated, have boxes for the URL or > item name, page references, etc.). > > ALL HELP IS APPRECIATED! Honestly, there are a LOT of sites I've > visited > I need to add now, but also there are a lot I have not! One of them > may > be yours! Post it! > > And if there is any other site which helps list game > history/preservation projects, resources and links, please, I'd > love to > know of it :) > > Thanks, > > Andrew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 10 15:52:59 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 14:52:59 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Wikipedia thoughts? In-Reply-To: <4968AB5F.5050905@aarmstrong.org> References: <49662D0B.6000801@aarmstrong.org> <49680B7E.3090805@oldskool.org> <49680E55.9000004@aarmstrong.org> <49682FA4.1050305@oldskool.org> <4968AB5F.5050905@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <49690AAB.90808@oldskool.org> Andrew Armstrong wrote: > For example; the Fallout 2 review - there is no mention of the word > "bug" - something which plagued the original release (as it is > documented elsewhere, foretold by saying it was, basically, very > obviously rushed to completion), and even after the patches many > problems persisted (which fan patches helped with). Maybe another review > would mention this, it'd mean searching them all. :) We track release information, which also applies to patches. It does not scream "this game was buggy as hell on release" obviously, but the info is there. There is much debate as to whether or not that is important in judging the artistic merit of a game; some say no, because it has nothing to do with the design/art/vision; others say yes, because the programming is an art in and of itself. Also, claiming a game is buggy is a subjective statement, not objective. It is entirely possible to play most "buggy" first-release games through to completion if your hardware matches the Q&A group's hardware. Moby has tried to stay away from any subjective claims or observations about any aspect of a game where appropriate. That's our focus; it keeps us neutral. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sat Jan 10 16:18:52 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:18:52 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Wikipedia thoughts? In-Reply-To: <49690AAB.90808@oldskool.org> References: <49662D0B.6000801@aarmstrong.org> <49680B7E.3090805@oldskool.org> <49680E55.9000004@aarmstrong.org> <49682FA4.1050305@oldskool.org> <4968AB5F.5050905@aarmstrong.org> <49690AAB.90808@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <496910BC.5020107@aarmstrong.org> I guess, but it's not usually up for debate when you can't actually complete a game. If something is known for a poor release then not noting it isn't really lacking opinion, it's lacking a fact (ie; a rushed game. It happens for console games too now sadly, sigh) - as much a fact as by consensus of choosing which genre a game is, for instance :) Then again, I do go for a more objective view of "buggy". "Buggy" isn't not having perfect functionality, but having the game not work due to a bug (which might not even be the game. *cough* DRM *cough*). I should have been more specific perhaps. It is a problem when every review notes it for a game though, which is sometimes lost to time (gamers have a real short attention span). And yeah, patch release dates are fine, but the most patched games might well have the least amount of bugs - for instance, I am sure World of Warcraft and other MMO's have a ton of patches, which might rebalance more then fix. Neverwinter Nights also had a ton of patches, which mainly added functionality to the game, rather then just fixing bugs. Fair enough on staying neutral, I just differ on the opinion of what you consider opinion or fact I think, haha. ;) Andrew PS: Yes, programming is an art (and part of the collective whole of making a game), and no, buggy games are not always the fault of programming anyway, hehehe :) Jim Leonard wrote: > Andrew Armstrong wrote: >> For example; the Fallout 2 review - there is no mention of the word >> "bug" - something which plagued the original release (as it is >> documented elsewhere, foretold by saying it was, basically, very >> obviously rushed to completion), and even after the patches many >> problems persisted (which fan patches helped with). Maybe another >> review would mention this, it'd mean searching them all. :) > > We track release information, which also applies to patches. It does > not scream "this game was buggy as hell on release" obviously, but the > info is there. There is much debate as to whether or not that is > important in judging the artistic merit of a game; some say no, > because it has nothing to do with the design/art/vision; others say > yes, because the programming is an art in and of itself. > > Also, claiming a game is buggy is a subjective statement, not > objective. It is entirely possible to play most "buggy" first-release > games through to completion if your hardware matches the Q&A group's > hardware. > > Moby has tried to stay away from any subjective claims or observations > about any aspect of a game where appropriate. That's our focus; it > keeps us neutral. From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sat Jan 10 16:20:44 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:20:44 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Calling for resources! Books! Websites! Whatever! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4969112C.8020106@aarmstrong.org> Great, I've only got a few books myself (which I'll add despite their dubious historical worth, more a reference then anything) and will do these too. Computer history is fine too, it is an obviously related field and important if a historian needs to investigate anything to do with the hardware side. It can just go under another heading. There were a few paper references we found for the white paper too which I'll put up as well, and make sure to have local copies on the wiki of for future use. Andrew Chris Lepine wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > I can recommend a few books on the subject of video games that I've > read over the years. AFAIK, none are available as a free download ... > but they do provide a great sense of game history: > > Dungeons and Desktops, by Matt Barton > http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Desktops-History-Computer-Role-playing/dp/1568814119 > (probably the most comprehensive history of role playing games ever > written - he literally reviews a huge number of games, talks about > their design, style, etc) > > Masters of Doom: How Two Guys Created an Empire and Transformed Pop > Culture, by David Kushner > http://www.amazon.com/Masters-Doom-Created-Transformed-Culture/dp/0375505245 > (the history of id software - very good storytelling, and insights > into the personalities of the two Johns) > > The Ultimate History of Video Games: From Pong to Pokemon, by Steven > L. Kent > http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-History-Video-Games-Pokemon/dp/0761536434 > (more of a referential history of video games) > > Dungeons and Dreamers: The Rise of Computer Game Culture from Geek to > Chic, by Brad King & John Borland > http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dreamers-Rise-Computer-Culture/dp/0072228881 > (some good storytelling that follows the life of Richard Garriott > among others - it gave me a good sense for how Ultima was conceived in > relation to his personal life) > > Halcyon Days: Interviews with Classic Computer and Video Game > Programmers, by James Hague > http://www.dadgum.com/halcyon/ > (free, interesting, interviews with some of the big names of the 80s > and early 90s - it gave me a sense for the development challenges that > developers face) > > And although these are only tangentially related, books on the > development of the Commodore 64 and Apple //e are extremely important > for understanding the history of video games as they helped to create > the possibility for mass-market computer games: > > Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution, Steven Levy > http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/729 > > On The Edge: The Spectacular Rise and Fall of Commodore, by Brian Bagnall > http://www.variantpress.com/books/on-the-edge > (seems to be temporarily Out of Stock) > > Hope that helps. > > - Chris > > --- > The Artful Gamer: In Search of the Lyrical and Poetic in Video Games > http://www.artfulgamer.com > >> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 00:44:36 +0000 >> From: Andrew Armstrong > > >> Subject: [game_preservation] Calling for resources! Books! Websites! >> Whatever! >> To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG > > >> Message-ID: <49669DF4.4070907 at aarmstrong.org >> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> I'm now board of not updating the resources and projects pages: >> >> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/Resources >> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/Projects >> >> I need your links, books, website and whatever you think is historically >> related to videogames. I'm more aiming at broader sites with videogame >> knowledge (so I'll be adding http://www.wikia.com/ and >> http://www.magweasel.com/ for instance). However, if you can provide a >> specific article, great! (better if it covers more then one game >> however). >> >> I will be trying (in between getting a job, grr, and doing some other >> bits) sorting out the page at least filling it with random links for >> now. In the future I hope to get the domains I've had for a while for >> the Digital Game Canon project online and with a quick and dirty >> PHP/MySQL solution so I can add these links in much better ways (so I >> can tag them, have source lines generated, have boxes for the URL or >> item name, page references, etc.). >> >> ALL HELP IS APPRECIATED! Honestly, there are a LOT of sites I've visited >> I need to add now, but also there are a lot I have not! One of them may >> be yours! Post it! >> >> And if there is any other site which helps list game >> history/preservation projects, resources and links, please, I'd love to >> know of it :) >> >> Thanks, >> >> Andrew > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 10 21:52:49 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:52:49 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Wikipedia thoughts? In-Reply-To: <496910BC.5020107@aarmstrong.org> References: <49662D0B.6000801@aarmstrong.org> <49680B7E.3090805@oldskool.org> <49680E55.9000004@aarmstrong.org> <49682FA4.1050305@oldskool.org> <4968AB5F.5050905@aarmstrong.org> <49690AAB.90808@oldskool.org> <496910BC.5020107@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <49695F01.9070901@oldskool.org> Andrew Armstrong wrote: > It happens for console games too now sadly, sigh) Yes, requiring the PS3/Xbox360/Wii to be connected to the 'net was the end of an era. The only true "console"-ness left is the Nintendo DS (already the PSP requires updates). > Fair enough on staying neutral, I just differ on the opinion of what you > consider opinion or fact I think, haha. ;) Then you can appreciate why we are as conservative as possible :-) > PS: Yes, programming is an art (and part of the collective whole of > making a game), and no, buggy games are not always the fault of > programming anyway, hehehe :) I have an entire bookcase of my software collection dedicated to games that wrung every last drop of performance out of a machine notoriously difficult to program games for (the original IBM PC with CGA). Games like Starglider, Turbo Champions, Elite, Interphase, Flight Simulator, Chuck Yeager's Advanced Flight Simulator (and CYAFTrainer, after the original name got them sued :-), ICON: Quest for the Ring, and others are truly works of programming art for that platform. [soapbox]A lot of people think the original PC, with it's 5MHz 16-bit processor, would be easy to write fast software for; in reality, it took 4x as long as a C64 to access memory and 6x as long to perform most simple calculations. Add to that an odd graphics memory structure and no graphics hardware assistance at all, and you have a nightmare to program for.[/soapbox] I am probably the only historian here who has a category for "most clever/efficient programming" for software history... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sun Jan 11 11:55:19 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:55:19 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Wikipedia thoughts? In-Reply-To: <49695F01.9070901@oldskool.org> References: <49662D0B.6000801@aarmstrong.org> <49680B7E.3090805@oldskool.org> <49680E55.9000004@aarmstrong.org> <49682FA4.1050305@oldskool.org> <4968AB5F.5050905@aarmstrong.org> <49690AAB.90808@oldskool.org> <496910BC.5020107@aarmstrong.org> <49695F01.9070901@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <496A2477.9060605@aarmstrong.org> Neat bit of history :) someone really needs to write a book about programming games over the years. There are books which mention certain programmers, but most just detail the design, art, music sides of games (if they look at development at all - usually they are just looking at the gameplay and story). Since I didn't grow up then, I don't have the knowledge of those systems. Certainly I'll be looking into them sometime or later in emulator form though :) now that'll be fun, in a way, hehe. Andrew > I have an entire bookcase of my software collection dedicated to games > that wrung every last drop of performance out of a machine notoriously > difficult to program games for (the original IBM PC with CGA). Games > like Starglider, Turbo Champions, Elite, Interphase, Flight Simulator, > Chuck Yeager's Advanced Flight Simulator (and CYAFTrainer, after the > original name got them sued :-), ICON: Quest for the Ring, and others > are truly works of programming art for that platform. > > [soapbox]A lot of people think the original PC, with it's 5MHz 16-bit > processor, would be easy to write fast software for; in reality, it > took 4x as long as a C64 to access memory and 6x as long to perform > most simple calculations. Add to that an odd graphics memory > structure and no graphics hardware assistance at all, and you have a > nightmare to program for.[/soapbox] > > I am probably the only historian here who has a category for "most > clever/efficient programming" for software history... From evilcowclone at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 18:00:04 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:00:04 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] SIG Icon - Joystick and Belljar In-Reply-To: <4967910B.7040803@aarmstrong.org> References: <4967910B.7040803@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: Thicker glass looks better, though doesn't the glass go around the base as well? Still not sure about the knob at the top (even though I suggested it in the first place!). Could our font be a little different? Is there a less generic pixel font we could use? Colors look fine - in line with IGDA colors. BTW, does anyone know what the IGDA colors actually STAND for? On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Okay, final thoughts on the latest design. If no one responds I'll be going > with my decision which can be changed later if need be, but at that point, > someone else will have to actually make it or have one ready. > > The designs as they stand are all here: > http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/ > > The thinner glass design (with the odd handle, which I could redo a bit): > > http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Belljar+over+Joystick+v2.png.html > > http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Banner+with+Visitor+Text.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=2 > > And a doubled thick icon (with a better handle too): > > http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Belljar+over+Joystick+thicker+glass.png.html > > http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Thicker+Icon+Banner+with+Visitor+Text.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=2 > > Any thoughts to the colours or design I'll take on board. If the icon is > crap and you have a much better idea, please say, we hardly had any ideas to > start with ;) and I don't think a floppy disk would go in a belljar, heh. > > I might do one last bit of altering on this design on my own but it won't > be for a few days. > > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 18:11:37 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:11:37 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Status of DMCA exemption relevant to game preservation In-Reply-To: <4967F0B0.7060208@aarmstrong.org> References: <4967EFE6.50609@stanford.edu> <4967F0B0.7060208@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: Henry, Just got back and going through old e-mails. Not sure I completely understand this (could be jet lag...). Anyway, any significant defense of game preservation would require some of the key points we've addressed in the white paper: a) That games stored on obsolete and volatile formats will not outlast their copyright and will therefore be unavailable for public use when the copyright expires. b) That longevity requires circumvention of DRMA (migration, emulation, etc). c) That games are a culturally and socially important medium that produces meaning (examples like Loom, Ultima, and text adventures as classic examples) that currently are not guaranteed long-term preservation by their copyright holders, and there is no group that is responsible for long-term preservation of digital media, especially games. d) Much progress has been made in recent years in game preservation as a result of this exemption, but preservation is a long process that cannot be done in merely 3 years and cannot be done without support from LoC. Is that it, in a nutshell? We're mainly concerned with magnetic data at this point because optical discs still have a longer lifespan. Once they become a problem, then it will be easier to adopt them because we will already (hopefully...) have a working archive of magnetic disk-based games. -Devin On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Interesting, and if I was in the USA I'd really want to help. I hope you > get some support for putting comments forward for this! It's a real shame > circumventing "DRM" or "copy protection" is special for software, sigh. > (It's like taking your cake and eating it too). > > Shall I post this on the blog? > > Andrew > > Henry Lowood wrote: > >> I am forwarding an important e-mail from our Library of Congress project >> group from Rachel Donahue at UIUC. Some of you probably know that the >> original exemption discussed before was spearheaded by the Internet Archive >> (with the point of the spear being our own Simon Carless, past chair of the >> SIG), with some support from Stanford and others. One of the many problems >> with DMCA is that these exemptions only last three years (I believe), which >> is ridiculous. Anyway, please read Rachel's note. Maybe there is someone >> here who will want to take up the cause and look into what can be done in >> the short time-frame available, if anything at all is feasible. >> >> Rachel's note: >> >> A new set of DMCA exemptions is up for approval. Unfortunately, the old >> exemption that we semi-relied on: >> >> "Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become >> obsolete and that require the original media or hardware as a condition of >> access, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation >> or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or >> archive. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system >> necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer >> manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial >> marketplace." >> >> Has not made the list of proposed classes, and I'm not sure that old >> exemptions are automatically considered for renewal. There's a procedure >> for "untimely submissions of proposed classes based on exceptional or >> unforeseen circumstances," but it requires a petition and a good defense >> of why it couldn't have been submitted eariler and why it should be >> considered after the deadline. >> >> There are a few relating to computer programs and literature that we may >> want to consider commenting on. The comment period closes February 2, >> 2009. All of the proposals, and the comment submission form, are available >> here: >> >> http://www.copyright.gov/1201/ >> >> One thing in our favor is that, "this rulemaking addresses only the >> prohibition on the conduct of circumventing measures that control "access" >> to copyrighted works," and all other activities continue to be covered by >> section 106/fair use. That doesn't save us from contract law, but it does >> make preservation actions a bit less legally grey. >> >> Cheers, >> Rach >> >> Rachel Donahue >> Graduate Assistant >> Maryland Institute for Technology in the Humanities >> University of Maryland, College Park >> College Park, MD >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 18:25:13 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:25:13 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Wikipedia thoughts? In-Reply-To: <496A2477.9060605@aarmstrong.org> References: <49662D0B.6000801@aarmstrong.org> <49680B7E.3090805@oldskool.org> <49680E55.9000004@aarmstrong.org> <49682FA4.1050305@oldskool.org> <4968AB5F.5050905@aarmstrong.org> <49690AAB.90808@oldskool.org> <496910BC.5020107@aarmstrong.org> <49695F01.9070901@oldskool.org> <496A2477.9060605@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: Sorry to be jumping in on such an old discussion - I've been away for three weeks. Some comments: -Wikipedia's decisions to cut information or edit information are paradoxical because a) information is submitted by independent sources (users), b) information must be verified (but the 'verifiers' here seem to be foggy - and there IS no expert in games, for even Steve Kent's book has errors and myths that now became history), c) information is not verified by experts, d) outside sources are often other websites that may or may not be accurate anyway. -Shouldn't we just co-opt the information into a games history wiki? Mobygames can certainly fill this function. If they want to delete an entire entry that contains historically important information (say statements from the designer), then just save it elsewhere and abandon Wikipedia. Academia doesn't accept Wikipedia anyway, even though most of the information is accurate. -Buggy game information is important to the history of a game (especially modern PC games). Game bugs can affect sales, user experience, and game meaning. It tells us a lot about game culture and game design as well - a game must meet a certain launch date in order to make up development costs, gamers are willing to buy a buggy game, but the game is still 'WIP' until the major bugs are fixed. Each patch is therefore important, and should be noted. On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Neat bit of history :) someone really needs to write a book about > programming games over the years. There are books which mention certain > programmers, but most just detail the design, art, music sides of games (if > they look at development at all - usually they are just looking at the > gameplay and story). > > Since I didn't grow up then, I don't have the knowledge of those systems. > Certainly I'll be looking into them sometime or later in emulator form > though :) now that'll be fun, in a way, hehe. > > Andrew > >> I have an entire bookcase of my software collection dedicated to games >> that wrung every last drop of performance out of a machine notoriously >> difficult to program games for (the original IBM PC with CGA). Games like >> Starglider, Turbo Champions, Elite, Interphase, Flight Simulator, Chuck >> Yeager's Advanced Flight Simulator (and CYAFTrainer, after the original name >> got them sued :-), ICON: Quest for the Ring, and others are truly works of >> programming art for that platform. >> >> [soapbox]A lot of people think the original PC, with it's 5MHz 16-bit >> processor, would be easy to write fast software for; in reality, it took 4x >> as long as a C64 to access memory and 6x as long to perform most simple >> calculations. Add to that an odd graphics memory structure and no graphics >> hardware assistance at all, and you have a nightmare to program >> for.[/soapbox] >> >> I am probably the only historian here who has a category for "most >> clever/efficient programming" for software history... >> > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 17 18:36:28 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:36:28 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Wikipedia thoughts? In-Reply-To: References: <49662D0B.6000801@aarmstrong.org> <49680B7E.3090805@oldskool.org> <49680E55.9000004@aarmstrong.org> <49682FA4.1050305@oldskool.org> <4968AB5F.5050905@aarmstrong.org> <49690AAB.90808@oldskool.org> <496910BC.5020107@aarmstrong.org> <49695F01.9070901@oldskool.org> <496A2477.9060605@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <49726B7C.1080104@oldskool.org> Devin Monnens wrote: > even Steve Kent's > book has errors and myths that now became history), I would love to know what these are. Any juicy tidbits? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From evilcowclone at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 19:11:23 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:11:23 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Wikipedia thoughts? In-Reply-To: <49726B7C.1080104@oldskool.org> References: <49662D0B.6000801@aarmstrong.org> <49680E55.9000004@aarmstrong.org> <49682FA4.1050305@oldskool.org> <4968AB5F.5050905@aarmstrong.org> <49690AAB.90808@oldskool.org> <496910BC.5020107@aarmstrong.org> <49695F01.9070901@oldskool.org> <496A2477.9060605@aarmstrong.org> <49726B7C.1080104@oldskool.org> Message-ID: I think the most popular one was about Pac-Man. Game historians tend to add multiple histories to indicate that nobody really knows the answer. According to the lore, Toru Iwatani was eating pizza one day, took away a slice, and saw 'Pac-Man'. Chris Kohler notes in Power-Up (another book that is now ridiculously hard to find), that the actual origins of Pac-Man are more vague - Iwatani says something like "I WISH I could say that this is how it happened" but doesn't even remember how Pac-Man was made with true certainty. Steve Kent acknowledges this too. Another myth is that Adventure for the 2600 was the first game with an easter egg - Star Fire actually contained easter eggs prior to this (special messages from initials giving first names of the designers), as did the PDP-11 version of Lunar Lander (a McDonald's on the Moon - pretty sure it was the PDP-11 version, at least!). Both games predate Adventure, though Adventure clearly deserves its notoriety through its ingenuity and rule-breaking. I'm sure there were plenty more easter eggs, too. The problem with game histories is that they rely mainly on quotes from the people who made the things, people whose memories are porous and who may have agendas to make themselves or somebody else look better or worse than they really are. That's why The Ultimate History of Video Games and Game Over are better as meta-studies than for actual quotes: what Nolan Bushnell says about Pong and Atari are more things that feed his agenda than actual truths. You understand more about the history of the industry not by what they say but *how *they say it and about how those personalities (and far too often their greed and hubris) shaped the industry. Unfortunately, because game history is often founded on such poor foundations, references go back to sources that were simply false, untrustworthy, or doubtful. This means we need real peer-review or cross-checking of sources, something that is kind of tough to do... On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Devin Monnens wrote: > >> even Steve Kent's book has errors and myths that now became history), >> > > I would love to know what these are. Any juicy tidbits? > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 19:25:47 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:25:47 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Project proposal: citation/catalogue standards Message-ID: Hi all, Coming close to the end of the white paper project, I've got another proposal to consider. This is in regards to the development of a standards system for cataloguing and citing videogames. I know the Game Journalists group has their own system in the works, and I think that the catalogue system for archives could have affinities with citation standards. I spoke with archivists at a couple universities in Japan, one of which has begun their own catalogue system. The game catalogue would eventually be used to produce a 'master list' of games (say a sum of all products) that can be used for citation and archival. At this point, it is just metadata, but it is also a tool that can be used for preservation purposes by giving a list of actual works. Something like this could be very helpful for preservation. One of the first steps is determining what information needs to be included in the catalogue, and I think a good bit of this would involve cooperation from existing archives and catalogues, as well as help from the International Game Journalists. Ideally, I think this would be a system that could be used effectively by libraries, archives, academics, and journalists. -Devin Monnens -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sat Jan 17 19:44:44 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 00:44:44 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Wikipedia thoughts? In-Reply-To: References: <49662D0B.6000801@aarmstrong.org> <49680E55.9000004@aarmstrong.org> <49682FA4.1050305@oldskool.org> <4968AB5F.5050905@aarmstrong.org> <49690AAB.90808@oldskool.org> <496910BC.5020107@aarmstrong.org> <49695F01.9070901@oldskool.org> <496A2477.9060605@aarmstrong.org> <49726B7C.1080104@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <49727B7C.8040201@aarmstrong.org> Hehe, pacman stuff :) I remember how vague all that stuff is. Devin Monnens wrote: > Unfortunately, because game history is often founded on such poor > foundations, references go back to sources that were simply false, > untrustworthy, or doubtful. This means we need real peer-review or > cross-checking of sources, something that is kind of tough to do... All of history can be revised with further evidence. The great thing is that, despite the sources possibly being self-centred or just not good at remembering things, it's a damn sight easier to get something off those people then, as for most historians that deal with anything earlier, dead people :) One thing the SIG needs to do is press forward with the Oral Histories suggestion. At GDC I intend to speak frankly about doing such interviews via. Skype or somesuch, to at least get *something* (Because while I would love to have the money, time and visa to do what Jason Scott has done for BBS's and now Text Adventure games, I don't ;) ). Once there are sources available, it'd make finding the historically accepted, probable truth much easier. Peer reviewed stuff would be nice. I wish I knew more about how to "do" history, the SIG could help facilitate something of that sort once we're more organised, or have people willing to put time into peer reviewing items put forward (and we have a place to put said items! A journal might be nice, a normal website or Mobygames is another possibility). Bring these things up in other topics and we'll get on discussing them. I'm interested in hearing on how peer reviewed history goes if there are any historical experts on the SIG list. Andrew From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sat Jan 17 19:48:12 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 00:48:12 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] SIG Icon - Joystick and Belljar In-Reply-To: References: <4967910B.7040803@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <49727C4C.4070608@aarmstrong.org> I'll look to do one without the glass knob, and sort the glass edge going around the base (depending on how it looks, I'll also do a thin glass version to compare). Give me a while - maybe will do it tomorrow. As for font, if you can find a entirely free Truetype font available, which looks better, go for it. I just wanted one that matched what simple work I did previously - not necessarily iconic "bit" fonts, so if you can find one which matches monospaced terminal input, that'd be cool. I don't know any decent sites for finding it though (I found that one via. google). The IGDA colours? well, I need to really sort the IGDA history (yeah, I started the Wiki project, it's still in limbo. Not that anyone really cares or knows about it, since I've not told anyone, hehe), that'd be something good to sort. I'll ask Jason how they got their icon and colours, and note it on the wiki. Probably entirely boring ("It looks good") but there we go ;) Andrew Devin Monnens wrote: > Thicker glass looks better, though doesn't the glass go around the > base as well? Still not sure about the knob at the top (even though I > suggested it in the first place!). Could our font be a little > different? Is there a less generic pixel font we could use? > > Colors look fine - in line with IGDA colors. BTW, does anyone know > what the IGDA colors actually STAND for? From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sat Jan 17 19:50:21 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 00:50:21 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Project proposal: citation/catalogue standards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49727CCD.70006@aarmstrong.org> So, what, you mean a Mobygames-like database? a set of XML files - one for each game? a ISBN-like book system? or a library "library of congress style" categorisation system? Or all of these? It'd be certainly something that would be useful. I'm interested to know exactly what you mean, and have a comparable example to look at copying from. There's no need to reinvent the wheel after all :) Andrew Devin Monnens wrote: > Hi all, > > Coming close to the end of the white paper project, I've got another > proposal to consider. This is in regards to the development of a > standards system for cataloguing and citing videogames. I know the > Game Journalists group has their own system in the works, and I think > that the catalogue system for archives could have affinities with > citation standards. I spoke with archivists at a couple universities > in Japan, one of which has begun their own catalogue system. > > The game catalogue would eventually be used to produce a 'master list' > of games (say a sum of all products) that can be used for citation and > archival. At this point, it is just metadata, but it is also a tool > that can be used for preservation purposes by giving a list of actual > works. Something like this could be very helpful for preservation. > > One of the first steps is determining what information needs to be > included in the catalogue, and I think a good bit of this would > involve cooperation from existing archives and catalogues, as well as > help from the International Game Journalists. Ideally, I think this > would be a system that could be used effectively by libraries, > archives, academics, and journalists. > > -Devin Monnens > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 20:47:25 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:47:25 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Project proposal: citation/catalogue standards In-Reply-To: <49727CCD.70006@aarmstrong.org> References: <49727CCD.70006@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: To answer this... 'Whatever works best' :) Personally? I was thinking a more minimal system with basic information about the game and catalogue numbers that would be easy to read (i.e. an ISBN-like set of numbers/letters for things like system, region, year, developer, mfg, and title). And, of course, the ability to add more notable information as metadata. Eventually, it might even be integrated with the Game Credits list. I don't think there's currently a 'perfect solution' for games. At the bare minimum, it would contain as much of the main information about a game as possible (certainly the info you would need to cite the game - hence help from the IGJA), though likely many more entries would contain metadata. Places like Mobygames and Arcade-History already contain much of this, though integrating all of the information into a central library would be difficult and require cooperation. The catalogue would obviously not include everything that is on sites like Mobygames and A-H, but I don't think it makes sense to retype all the information when somebody else already has it - it's like manually going through every single book in the LoC to get the publishing information. -Devin On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: > So, what, you mean a Mobygames-like database? a set of XML files - one for > each game? a ISBN-like book system? or a library "library of congress style" > categorisation system? > > Or all of these? > > It'd be certainly something that would be useful. I'm interested to know > exactly what you mean, and have a comparable example to look at copying > from. There's no need to reinvent the wheel after all :) > > Andrew > > Devin Monnens wrote: > > Hi all, > > Coming close to the end of the white paper project, I've got another > proposal to consider. This is in regards to the development of a standards > system for cataloguing and citing videogames. I know the Game Journalists > group has their own system in the works, and I think that the catalogue > system for archives could have affinities with citation standards. I spoke > with archivists at a couple universities in Japan, one of which has begun > their own catalogue system. > > The game catalogue would eventually be used to produce a 'master list' of > games (say a sum of all products) that can be used for citation and > archival. At this point, it is just metadata, but it is also a tool that can > be used for preservation purposes by giving a list of actual works. > Something like this could be very helpful for preservation. > > One of the first steps is determining what information needs to be included > in the catalogue, and I think a good bit of this would involve cooperation > from existing archives and catalogues, as well as help from the > International Game Journalists. Ideally, I think this would be a system that > could be used effectively by libraries, archives, academics, and > journalists. > > -Devin Monnens > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sun Jan 18 16:54:12 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:54:12 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG, +2009 ideas (Please respond!) Message-ID: <4973A504.3050900@aarmstrong.org> Hey all, I'm gearing up to revamp the SIG wiki pages, to make them, well, more readable for starters. Big blocks of text do not help a casual reader, and the page is huge. So I'm proposing to cut down the front page text and move that into the separate pages for more detail. I'll probably make a good list using bullet points for the internal SIG projects (Memorials, white paper, information, etc.), and another for externally support by SIG member projects (IA, etc.). This also gives me an opportunity to revamp what the projects actually aim to achieve. Most of this will not be necessary to change, but I think rather then me determining what is best, people should be able to give a quick comment if they see something wrong! I'll go through briefly what is likely worth changing, from the front page top to bottom: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG ---------------------------------------- *Overview* The main objectives of the SIG should probably still stay the same. The history section is actually more important then it seems to be, and I need to get more clearer dates (when did Henry take over, what the SIG has done in the past before I joined!) and make a new page for this. Contributions for this welcome! The objectives will stay I think, with some additional hyperlinks. If anyone has any additions or subtractions from our general list of objectives, please say. *SIG News* I'll leave this as this is, but make it into a smaller header. *Current Initiatives and Projects* I'll make this into a list of projects the SIG currently is working on internally and externally. I think it is worth keeping the variable naming (Initiatives vs. Projects). The list will go alphabetically I think, there currently is no order. The list also will possibly be split or marked by status ("ongoing", "not started", "on hold" etc.) *Digital Game Canon* I still need to finish the wiki pages for each game, stupidly I've not done that yet. However; this project is at the moment "On Hold". GDC just /doesn't care/ /enough /to host any historically important sessions and the IGDA won't ever have space for this kind of thing. Henry said he had worked on the 2008 ones too. Proposal: Make a note that the project is "ON HOLD". Figure out how to get this back on track for 2009. This is all Henry's work so he'll be the one doing any of this I guess ;) *Memorial pages* The short paragraph is enough for a list item. The project is still ongoing (with some backlog to add but nothing immediately coming to the fore). *Contribution Materials Information* A bit messy. I'll clean it up. Proposal: This should be "Information" not a "Project" (it's basically nearly complete now). Make a new section for "SIG Preservation Information" of which the list of museums and archives which accept information should go along with how developers can contribute information. *Videogame Collectors Information* Proposal: As above, move to an "Information" section. This was ongoing research but is a very low priority - without inside knowledge, I certainly can't do this myself, and we really need some expert collector to simply list the facts behind collectors, the feel of what they do and many resources (websites, magazines, ways to trawl ebay or whatever). This needs a volunteer! *Oral Histories* This project has officially not started, not even so far as to get it's own wiki page. :) Proposal: This should be possibly looked at with cooperation from archives or museums. Issues: we don't have any SIG members who want to do this, since it does take a lot of time! (especially if transcribing) Possible solution: work on text based interviews, or Skype/whatever calls, or even something in a virtual environment. Not as good for documentary work but useful none the less. Possibly see what museums and archives are doing specifically in this area - I know the UK one won't specifically work on them without needing them for a show/exhibit, and likely most of the others will be the same. *White paper: Importance of archival work *This needs retitling as "White Papers". It needs cleaning up. I'll move the pages to be more coherant (the brainstorm for this years paper needs to be put in a "2008" folder or something). It'll be a new section too, probably, or at least sub lists will have the actual paper entries. *Internet Archive Work* Will be moved to "Externally supported projects". Will list the collections and their contents in bullet point form too, if it looks good, and get it's own wiki page as well. *IGDA History* An internal SIG project (well, more /my/ project...). This is "On hold" for my time needs to go elsewhere (see this!). Pretty simple to put into a bullet point. Anyone who wants to help conduct interviews, provide sources and research for this medium-sized project give me a shout. *External Preservation Projects* This really is "Websites and museums doing work". Should really be titled better. *Resources* Information lists and so forth. I think there could well be just a big section for "Information" and having "Resources", "Projects" and so forth there would work better. *Contact and discussion / Membership* Proposal: This can get moved into the "Overview" section at the top. *External Links* Proposal: Remove this. I added this for no reason before, meh. ---------------------------------------- Now, anyone have any criticisms or whatever on the current list of projects (all above) or SIG aims, or any ideas for new projects, please say. If you're on the list for some other reason or think all this administrative discussion is boring, also say! Sometimes posting on this list and requesting information on "Why is no one posting" is like getting water out of a rock :) (not counting the half dozen of you who do respond, awesome you lot!). I'd rather like to know what to improve in 2009, what would attract more active participation or would be useful for members, members like you! I can't know this without someone saying something. Once the new IGDA site starts btw, we'll be losing the "mailing list", since it'll be subscription-based forums (ie; email capacity on forums. sp similar functionality. I'll make sure that's open to free members and is viewable when logged out like this mailing list is for histories sake, hehe), you'll have to sign up for at least a free account to be there, and I'll then know how many people we have, so no excuses then! ;) Once that site is live too, I'll be making 2009 possibly a year to gather together people who are in the field into at least a group that has an ear in on discussions here. The fact there is no formal organisation for the history of videogames (unlike other historically researched fields), and no conferences, this is as good as we have right now, so best to try and gather together people if possible :) Thanks, Andrew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 21:02:23 2009 From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:02:23 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas (Please respond!) In-Reply-To: <4973A504.3050900@aarmstrong.org> References: <4973A504.3050900@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <4973df30.070fc00a.28bd.5b66@mx.google.com> A few comments: I meant to ask this a long time ago, but how were the initial choices for the Digital Game Canon determined? I don't remember there being any sort of open voting. I ask because this could be one of the reasons why there seems to be a low degree of interest in this project. Collectors - what do you want from this section? One thing I will say is that it's difficult to generalize about why collectors do what they do - they are very different people with different motivations (and psychoses : )). Oral Histories - this sounds like a very interesting project, but maybe a bit too ambitious. I think the hard part won't be getting volunteers to perform the interviews, it will be getting the project the initial legitimacy it needs to get the interviewees willing to sit down for the interviews. Maybe we can leverage existing work here. Stuart -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Sun Jan 18 21:51:34 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 02:51:34 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas (Please respond!) In-Reply-To: <4973df30.070fc00a.28bd.5b66@mx.google.com> References: <4973A504.3050900@aarmstrong.org> <4973df30.070fc00a.28bd.5b66@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4973EAB6.9050804@aarmstrong.org> Stuart Feldhamer wrote: > > I meant to ask this a long time ago, but how were the initial choices > for the Digital Game Canon determined? I don't remember there being > any sort of open voting. I ask because this could be one of the > reasons why there seems to be a low degree of interest in this project. > The first year was chosen by 5 people (Matteo Bittanti, Christopher Grant, Henry Lowood, Steve Meretzky, and Warren Spector) who presented 2 each after much discussion (via. email). Like the National Film Registry, it's experts in the field choosing entries, not "Joe public". I doubt there would be any voting from the SIG members - at least not anyone who signs up, since it's open and therefore open to abuse, especially without dialogue. Henry is running it though, and I think he did mention something about 2008's also being done, but of course, no session to present it at means either doing it online or otherwise. So we'll see. Also, unlike the National Film Registry which has the facilities to archive the films, we don't have physical facilities to archive the games/systems, so it's more a starting list for people who want to know what games are really important in history and why (although I hope in the future the games can be secured in multiple locations at least with emulations of their system so they can be accessed). In that respect, if it does become more important, it can be more formally sorted (with a panel of experts, set guidelines, etc. etc.) but it's more a starting point AFAIK. As for interest for a GDC session? Nah, the GDC people just don't like history sessions. They're pretty glossy in what they choose I guess, and the focus is on the "here and now" not "the past". Since there were people going to the session and good feedback in 2007, it's bizarre, but whatever. Note that, of course, the "Joe public" doesn't have any say in what gets accepted at GDC either. > > Collectors -- what do you want from this section? One thing I will say > is that it's difficult to generalize about why collectors do what they > do -- they are very different people with different motivations (and > psychoses : )). > Motivations and psychoses might be different between people, but knowing about what they collect (and don't), what they value (and don't), and how they go about it is very similar in the vast majority of cases. I keep an eye on some collectors sites, ebay checkers and whatnot, but hardly know enough to write anything more then what's up there already. Basically, it needs to be accessible information for those who are not collectors. A-B-C's kind of thing. Historians, archvisists, book writers and just interested developers might want to know. Especially so if they need to write about the subject or possibly interact with them ;) (like finding out if they can get a photo of a certain game, or check if a game exists, or something the community of collectors can help with since they literally own "everything", although might not actively put it up in any accessible form anywhere). > > Oral Histories -- this sounds like a very interesting project, but > maybe a bit too ambitious. I think the hard part won't be getting > volunteers to perform the interviews, it will be getting the project > the initial legitimacy it needs to get the interviewees willing to sit > down for the interviews. Maybe we can leverage existing work here. > Haha, this was originally brought up by people at last years round table, the two main ones I recall were Steve Meretzky and Warren Spector and a few other developers too. Since they murmured it was more important (and no one was doing it!) there is interest to have those oral histories done, as long as someone else does the serious legwork doing them! If I were in America and had a camera/recording equipment I'd start them myself around conference times - since many of the people in history still actively go to conferences and work, it'd be likely nice to get a few at once. Or if I had the time and money, man, Jason Scott is like living the dream of this kind of work, and I'd want to do something similar but per-person (and Jason is a perfect example that there are a ton of people who are willing to be interviewed too) :) So the last option is online stuff. Which kinda sucks. Therefore, if there are volunteers who can go in person with a camera and microphone, with a good list of questions and a general knowledge (or research) about the person, it'd be great. I am sure if we actively sought out people just for this (not business, not for pestering about anything else) they'd be happy to help (time permitting) since some of them brought it up in the first place. I think therefore it's still a volunteer issue, not a source issue. There are many more developers out there then I see volunteers to do this, in the region of thousands:0 at the moment ;) Andrew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 00:44:04 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 22:44:04 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG, +2009 ideas (Please respond!) In-Reply-To: <4973A504.3050900@aarmstrong.org> References: <4973A504.3050900@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: Andrew, That list looks good. I've been a bit preoccupied with some other things lately, but this looks good. I personally have some interest in the resources section as I think big centralized lists of articles, etc is very important to research. Another concern I've got for preservation is actually dying skill sets. We know that the knowledge of how old videogames were made is really disappearing, and the process of actually making classic games is reduced to either homebrew groups doing NES and Atari games and games like Rockman 9 that LOOK like they ran on an NES, but actually are too much for the system to handle. However, the technology always changes, so the tools really aren't that important so long as we can still make games and still make something that looks 8-bit. More important is the loss of an actual entire format of games. The one I'm talking about is pinball. Hardly anybody makes pinball games anymore. I was talking with Micky G. Albert over at Mindware about this and he said that there's only one or two guys out there who are actually making new pinball games. A digital pinball game is simply not the same as a physical one, because the physics and performance are all different. Mindware has been researching how pinball games are made by repairing them, and hopes to work on development kits for homebrew pinball creation. The trouble that I pointed out to him was, the skills for how to make good pinball games will disappear with the last designers. How do we know that if you put this flipper here and this bumper here, that creates a particular system that creates 'fun' or 'engaging' play? You would have to learn how to make the wheel all over again. So preserving games in this case isn't so much preserving museum pieces of pinball machines but rather preserving oral histories and how-to's of how games are actually made. It's different from the loss of Famicom dev kits for instance because we still know how to make videogames. It would be more like if people stopped making pixel art or 2D games (it's a dying breed, but there are still many out there, so it won't go away). We would have to study how the games were made if we ever wanted to make a new one that compared - otherwise, we'd have to start from scratch. Anyway, I think getting some oral histories of pinball development might be a good project for that section, but I honestly don't know enough to see how far to pursue that. I do think it is going to be pretty important though because it is a very unique problem. -Devin On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Hey all, > > I'm gearing up to revamp the SIG wiki pages, to make them, well, more > readable for starters. Big blocks of text do not help a casual reader, and > the page is huge. > > So I'm proposing to cut down the front page text and move that into the > separate pages for more detail. I'll probably make a good list using bullet > points for the internal SIG projects (Memorials, white paper, information, > etc.), and another for externally support by SIG member projects (IA, etc.). > > This also gives me an opportunity to revamp what the projects actually aim > to achieve. Most of this will not be necessary to change, but I think rather > then me determining what is best, people should be able to give a quick > comment if they see something wrong! > > I'll go through briefly what is likely worth changing, from the front page > top to bottom: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG > > ---------------------------------------- > > *Overview* > The main objectives of the SIG should probably still stay the same. The > history section is actually more important then it seems to be, and I need > to get more clearer dates (when did Henry take over, what the SIG has done > in the past before I joined!) and make a new page for this. Contributions > for this welcome! > > The objectives will stay I think, with some additional hyperlinks. If > anyone has any additions or subtractions from our general list of > objectives, please say. > > *SIG News* > I'll leave this as this is, but make it into a smaller header. > > *Current Initiatives and Projects* > I'll make this into a list of projects the SIG currently is working on > internally and externally. I think it is worth keeping the variable naming > (Initiatives vs. Projects). The list will go alphabetically I think, there > currently is no order. The list also will possibly be split or marked by > status ("ongoing", "not started", "on hold" etc.) > > *Digital Game Canon* > I still need to finish the wiki pages for each game, stupidly I've not done > that yet. However; this project is at the moment "On Hold". GDC just *doesn't > care* *enough *to host any historically important sessions and the IGDA > won't ever have space for this kind of thing. Henry said he had worked on > the 2008 ones too. > > Proposal: Make a note that the project is "ON HOLD". Figure out how to get > this back on track for 2009. This is all Henry's work so he'll be the one > doing any of this I guess ;) > > *Memorial pages* > The short paragraph is enough for a list item. The project is still ongoing > (with some backlog to add but nothing immediately coming to the fore). > > *Contribution Materials Information* > A bit messy. I'll clean it up. > > Proposal: This should be "Information" not a "Project" (it's basically > nearly complete now). Make a new section for "SIG Preservation Information" > of which the list of museums and archives which accept information should go > along with how developers can contribute information. > > *Videogame Collectors Information* > Proposal: As above, move to an "Information" section. This was ongoing > research but is a very low priority - without inside knowledge, I certainly > can't do this myself, and we really need some expert collector to simply > list the facts behind collectors, the feel of what they do and many > resources (websites, magazines, ways to trawl ebay or whatever). This needs > a volunteer! > > *Oral Histories* > This project has officially not started, not even so far as to get it's own > wiki page. :) > > Proposal: This should be possibly looked at with cooperation from archives > or museums. Issues: we don't have any SIG members who want to do this, since > it does take a lot of time! (especially if transcribing) Possible solution: > work on text based interviews, or Skype/whatever calls, or even something in > a virtual environment. Not as good for documentary work but useful none the > less. Possibly see what museums and archives are doing specifically in this > area - I know the UK one won't specifically work on them without needing > them for a show/exhibit, and likely most of the others will be the same. > > *White paper: Importance of archival work > *This needs retitling as "White Papers". It needs cleaning up. I'll move > the pages to be more coherant (the brainstorm for this years paper needs to > be put in a "2008" folder or something). It'll be a new section too, > probably, or at least sub lists will have the actual paper entries. > > *Internet Archive Work* > Will be moved to "Externally supported projects". Will list the collections > and their contents in bullet point form too, if it looks good, and get it's > own wiki page as well. > > *IGDA History* > An internal SIG project (well, more *my* project...). This is "On hold" > for my time needs to go elsewhere (see this!). Pretty simple to put into a > bullet point. Anyone who wants to help conduct interviews, provide sources > and research for this medium-sized project give me a shout. > > *External Preservation Projects* > This really is "Websites and museums doing work". Should really be titled > better. > > *Resources* > Information lists and so forth. I think there could well be just a big > section for "Information" and having "Resources", "Projects" and so forth > there would work better. > > *Contact and discussion / Membership* > Proposal: This can get moved into the "Overview" section at the top. > > *External Links* > Proposal: Remove this. I added this for no reason before, meh. > > ---------------------------------------- > > Now, anyone have any criticisms or whatever on the current list of projects > (all above) or SIG aims, or any ideas for new projects, please say. If > you're on the list for some other reason or think all this administrative > discussion is boring, also say! Sometimes posting on this list and > requesting information on "Why is no one posting" is like getting water out > of a rock :) (not counting the half dozen of you who do respond, awesome you > lot!). > > I'd rather like to know what to improve in 2009, what would attract more > active participation or would be useful for members, members like you! I > can't know this without someone saying something. > > Once the new IGDA site starts btw, we'll be losing the "mailing list", > since it'll be subscription-based forums (ie; email capacity on forums. sp > similar functionality. I'll make sure that's open to free members and is > viewable when logged out like this mailing list is for histories sake, > hehe), you'll have to sign up for at least a free account to be there, and > I'll then know how many people we have, so no excuses then! ;) > > Once that site is live too, I'll be making 2009 possibly a year to gather > together people who are in the field into at least a group that has an ear > in on discussions here. The fact there is no formal organisation for the > history of videogames (unlike other historically researched fields), and no > conferences, this is as good as we have right now, so best to try and gather > together people if possible :) > > Thanks, > > Andrew > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 01:00:47 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 23:00:47 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas (Please respond!) In-Reply-To: <4973EAB6.9050804@aarmstrong.org> References: <4973A504.3050900@aarmstrong.org> <4973df30.070fc00a.28bd.5b66@mx.google.com> <4973EAB6.9050804@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: RE: Digital Cannon Yeah, it would have to be a select group of 'experts' or we should say curators who determine this (the others are the artist (here, Warren Spector) and the audience (which kind of gets taken care of in things like IGN's 'top 100 list'). There's different ways of how something gets determined as being 'art' or 'canon', but the most authoritative usually ends up being a small group of 'experts' who get together and say 'this is what is important is and this is why' (in the case of the Literary Canon, it was the PMYs - Pale, Male, and Yale - I think the nature of the games industry kind of puts us in the same boat, so I think we would do well to have more diversity on the panel than what essentially amounts to 'just another bunch of white guys' to put it bluntly - and not meant to be negative, though slightly humorous nonetheless, and I also think of diversity as ultimately important to the future of the canon). Having a canon does produce some inherent problems that the art and critical world has already addressed, but it seems to be a necessary step nonetheless - we have to start with SOMETHING that we can say is important to hold down for history, and even if Shakespeare isn't THAT important, we still have to say that it's worth studying and worth preserving. A critique of the canon as such can come only AFTER we've made one - it would unnecessarily derail the entire project if we worried about that now. RE: Oral Histories I think I talked a little about one particular need for one in pinball. However, I think it might be possible for me to start at least one small project sometime in the future here in Colorado. What is now the official Colorado chapter of the IGDA is apparently the longest continually-running group of game developers in the world (I've only been around about 5 years, so I can only go by what they tell me!). Recording histories of game development in Colorado and of what used to be the CGDA and simply the culture of the industry here I think could be pretty important and I might even be able to rustle up some grant money (and certainly volunteers at the monthly meetings!). Now I'm not going to say that this is something I'm going to hop out and do today, but it certainly is something that I can propose to the chapter, and I'm sure they'd be happy to do it. I will have to do more research into what should actually be covered in these kinds of oral histories, but I am certain that because it would promote not only the local IGDA chapter but also Colorado history and industry, it could be nothing but positive if done well and done enthusiastically. Give me some tips on how to do it, what to cover, and who knows - maybe I can start sometime this summer even. Just don't count on any actual schedules! I think start small, but start somewhere. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 01:06:45 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 23:06:45 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas (Please respond!) In-Reply-To: References: <4973A504.3050900@aarmstrong.org> <4973df30.070fc00a.28bd.5b66@mx.google.com> <4973EAB6.9050804@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: RE: 2008, 2009 DGC Why not just publish it on Gamasutra or Computer Game Studies? Gamasutra has a wider audience, though CGS has a stricter review policy. It seems kinda sad to do it that way, but we need to have audience and generate interest. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 09:20:46 2009 From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 09:20:46 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas (Please respond!) In-Reply-To: <4973EAB6.9050804@aarmstrong.org> References: <4973A504.3050900@aarmstrong.org> <4973df30.070fc00a.28bd.5b66@mx.google.com> <4973EAB6.9050804@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <49748c41.0906c00a.2578.1a5b@mx.google.com> OK, so I can understand Steve Meretzky and Warren Spector, and even Henry Lowood, but who are the other 2 people on the panel? I mean, why were they chosen? Funny you should mention the National Film Registry: http://www.loc.gov/film/vote.html I am still digesting your comments about collectors and oral histories. Stuart From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Armstrong Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:52 PM To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas (Please respond!) Stuart Feldhamer wrote: I meant to ask this a long time ago, but how were the initial choices for the Digital Game Canon determined? I don't remember there being any sort of open voting. I ask because this could be one of the reasons why there seems to be a low degree of interest in this project. The first year was chosen by 5 people (Matteo Bittanti, Christopher Grant, Henry Lowood, Steve Meretzky, and Warren Spector) who presented 2 each after much discussion (via. email). Like the National Film Registry, it's experts in the field choosing entries, not "Joe public". I doubt there would be any voting from the SIG members - at least not anyone who signs up, since it's open and therefore open to abuse, especially without dialogue. Henry is running it though, and I think he did mention something about 2008's also being done, but of course, no session to present it at means either doing it online or otherwise. So we'll see. Also, unlike the National Film Registry which has the facilities to archive the films, we don't have physical facilities to archive the games/systems, so it's more a starting list for people who want to know what games are really important in history and why (although I hope in the future the games can be secured in multiple locations at least with emulations of their system so they can be accessed). In that respect, if it does become more important, it can be more formally sorted (with a panel of experts, set guidelines, etc. etc.) but it's more a starting point AFAIK. As for interest for a GDC session? Nah, the GDC people just don't like history sessions. They're pretty glossy in what they choose I guess, and the focus is on the "here and now" not "the past". Since there were people going to the session and good feedback in 2007, it's bizarre, but whatever. Note that, of course, the "Joe public" doesn't have any say in what gets accepted at GDC either. Collectors - what do you want from this section? One thing I will say is that it's difficult to generalize about why collectors do what they do - they are very different people with different motivations (and psychoses : )). Motivations and psychoses might be different between people, but knowing about what they collect (and don't), what they value (and don't), and how they go about it is very similar in the vast majority of cases. I keep an eye on some collectors sites, ebay checkers and whatnot, but hardly know enough to write anything more then what's up there already. Basically, it needs to be accessible information for those who are not collectors. A-B-C's kind of thing. Historians, archvisists, book writers and just interested developers might want to know. Especially so if they need to write about the subject or possibly interact with them ;) (like finding out if they can get a photo of a certain game, or check if a game exists, or something the community of collectors can help with since they literally own "everything", although might not actively put it up in any accessible form anywhere). Oral Histories - this sounds like a very interesting project, but maybe a bit too ambitious. I think the hard part won't be getting volunteers to perform the interviews, it will be getting the project the initial legitimacy it needs to get the interviewees willing to sit down for the interviews. Maybe we can leverage existing work here. Haha, this was originally brought up by people at last years round table, the two main ones I recall were Steve Meretzky and Warren Spector and a few other developers too. Since they murmured it was more important (and no one was doing it!) there is interest to have those oral histories done, as long as someone else does the serious legwork doing them! If I were in America and had a camera/recording equipment I'd start them myself around conference times - since many of the people in history still actively go to conferences and work, it'd be likely nice to get a few at once. Or if I had the time and money, man, Jason Scott is like living the dream of this kind of work, and I'd want to do something similar but per-person (and Jason is a perfect example that there are a ton of people who are willing to be interviewed too) :) So the last option is online stuff. Which kinda sucks. Therefore, if there are volunteers who can go in person with a camera and microphone, with a good list of questions and a general knowledge (or research) about the person, it'd be great. I am sure if we actively sought out people just for this (not business, not for pestering about anything else) they'd be happy to help (time permitting) since some of them brought it up in the first place. I think therefore it's still a volunteer issue, not a source issue. There are many more developers out there then I see volunteers to do this, in the region of thousands:0 at the moment ;) Andrew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Jan 19 09:24:40 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:24:40 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG, +2009 ideas (Please respond!) In-Reply-To: References: <4973A504.3050900@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <49748D28.7090208@aarmstrong.org> Hey, Devin Monnens wrote: > Anyway, I think getting some oral histories of pinball development > might be a good project for that section, but I honestly don't know > enough to see how far to pursue that. I do think it is going to be > pretty important though because it is a very unique problem. I have no idea where Pinball specifically fits into the history of digital games / videogames, since they started as purely analogue. It'd be interesting to do, and sure, can be included in the Oral Histories part. I'll make a note. Andrew From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Jan 19 09:39:17 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:39:17 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas (Please respond!) In-Reply-To: <49748c41.0906c00a.2578.1a5b@mx.google.com> References: <4973A504.3050900@aarmstrong.org> <4973df30.070fc00a.28bd.5b66@mx.google.com> <4973EAB6.9050804@aarmstrong.org> <49748c41.0906c00a.2578.1a5b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <49749095.9040309@aarmstrong.org> Yeah, I checked that out before responding myself. They take up to 50 votes per person, films must be 10 years old, and the votes are taken into account. It's interesting as a system (I might also have to email them about it, see how it is setup, how it runs in the background, etc.) The problem? we're so unknown that even Videogame museums/archives/collections don't know who we are. There simply isn't a critical mass of experts in this SIG, and certainly any votes like that for 50 games would be, well, a dozen or so maybe? It'd be a bit silly, to be honest. It'd also have to be international, too, and for all the good game fans there are some who love to ballot stuff. I'll have to do some kind of online system I think if we did the public vote thing :) We'd need to setup a proper site. Devin; to respond to Gamastura or whatever, I have no idea about that, maybe that is a route. I still need to build a site to host some information about the canon games (like the NFR website to a degree, certainly better then a Wiki however, since it needs forms for ballots etc.). I think the reason Matteo Bittanti helped was he's part of the Stanford stuff - http://www.stanford.edu/group/htgg/cgi-bin/drupal/?q=blog/15 (and here: http://mbf.blogs.com/about.html ), so academically inclined like Henry, and Christopher Grant was a journalist (and still, at Joystiq, who did express some interest in hosting a monthly "Game of Canon" or something), so had that perspective - it's important of course not to just see what the developers and historians think is important, but what the press and players think is important too. I also think they were not just "oh, I have 2 picks, my faves can go in", they got discussed. It was only a start, as far as I know Henry never intended it to be like that forever or anything, but I doubt you could get a set of games decided on using a complex system of voting (which needs to be done a full year in advance) then having a larger set of experts deciding - in 2007, there were much less members here then there were now too :) For last years I am sure Henry did some work on that and got 10 more too, but I can't recall who he mentioned helping, I think Simon Carless was involved too though. I'll look into this though as a serious project if you have some more ideas. Can you put forward what you think would be a "Perfect" system for releasing up to 10 games per year into the Canon of games? How to publicise it, maybe how to get public votes in, and how the panel can decide on them and when in the year? (possibly do a years voting starting January 1st, and decide the years entries in the month of January onwards for the previous year - so 2009 would have games released in 1998 or earlier added, etc....maybe do it monthly) I'll jot down these ideas once people have had time to comment on the entire list - I'll note down all of this, all of your concerns and also "What is happening about the missing years" - we might just do a catchup of them, who knows? Andrew Stuart Feldhamer wrote: > > OK, so I can understand Steve Meretzky and Warren Spector, and even > Henry Lowood, but who are the other 2 people on the panel? I mean, why > were they chosen? > > > > Funny you should mention the National Film Registry: > > > > http://www.loc.gov/film/vote.html > > > > I am still digesting your comments about collectors and oral histories? > > > > Stuart > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 10:32:52 2009 From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:32:52 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas (Please respond!) In-Reply-To: <49749095.9040309@aarmstrong.org> References: <4973A504.3050900@aarmstrong.org> <4973df30.070fc00a.28bd.5b66@mx.google.com> <4973EAB6.9050804@aarmstrong.org> <49748c41.0906c00a.2578.1a5b@mx.google.com> <49749095.9040309@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <49749d20.2536640a.0cb7.574a@mx.google.com> What I propose would be something like this: First of all, I think 10 games per year is too many. (As an aside, I'm not sure that there are 10 culturally significant games produced every year anymore.) 10 games was good for the initial selection, but for each year, it probably should be no more than 5, to increase the value of a game getting in. A nominating committee is established to pick initial nominations (maybe 10). The nominating committee members should be members of the SIG. It would be nice if we can get Meretzky or Spector or the like to be on the nominating committee, but again, they should be members of the SIG if this is a SIG project. I would try to establish a process whereby members of the committee are willing to step down if someone more "worthy" for lack of a better word becomes willing to serve. Once initial nominations are made as a group by the committee to the SIG, they are debated by the SIG members on this email list or the subsequent forums. The committee reviews the feedback and may choose to modify their nomination selections as a result. Once the slate is final, it is put forward to the general membership of the IGDA for voting. Say for example they can vote for 5 of the 10 nominations to make it into the canon. This should go out to the membership similar to the emails that go out for voting for the IGDA board, with some time period for responding. The "winners" are presented at a GDC panel (without being revealed in advance), with some kind of award given to the lead developer/designer/producer/creative team/whatever. Since IGDA members will have voted, there will be much more buzz around this and a desire to see who wins, and I would be very surprised if this wasn't something that GDC would be interested in hosting. As an aside, we need to do a much better job of "canonizing" those titles that do make it into the canon. Stuart From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Armstrong Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:39 AM To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas (Please respond!) Yeah, I checked that out before responding myself. They take up to 50 votes per person, films must be 10 years old, and the votes are taken into account. It's interesting as a system (I might also have to email them about it, see how it is setup, how it runs in the background, etc.) The problem? we're so unknown that even Videogame museums/archives/collections don't know who we are. There simply isn't a critical mass of experts in this SIG, and certainly any votes like that for 50 games would be, well, a dozen or so maybe? It'd be a bit silly, to be honest. It'd also have to be international, too, and for all the good game fans there are some who love to ballot stuff. I'll have to do some kind of online system I think if we did the public vote thing :) We'd need to setup a proper site. Devin; to respond to Gamastura or whatever, I have no idea about that, maybe that is a route. I still need to build a site to host some information about the canon games (like the NFR website to a degree, certainly better then a Wiki however, since it needs forms for ballots etc.). I think the reason Matteo Bittanti helped was he's part of the Stanford stuff - http://www.stanford.edu/group/htgg/cgi-bin/drupal/?q=blog/15 (and here: http://mbf.blogs.com/about.html ), so academically inclined like Henry, and Christopher Grant was a journalist (and still, at Joystiq, who did express some interest in hosting a monthly "Game of Canon" or something), so had that perspective - it's important of course not to just see what the developers and historians think is important, but what the press and players think is important too. I also think they were not just "oh, I have 2 picks, my faves can go in", they got discussed. It was only a start, as far as I know Henry never intended it to be like that forever or anything, but I doubt you could get a set of games decided on using a complex system of voting (which needs to be done a full year in advance) then having a larger set of experts deciding - in 2007, there were much less members here then there were now too :) For last years I am sure Henry did some work on that and got 10 more too, but I can't recall who he mentioned helping, I think Simon Carless was involved too though. I'll look into this though as a serious project if you have some more ideas. Can you put forward what you think would be a "Perfect" system for releasing up to 10 games per year into the Canon of games? How to publicise it, maybe how to get public votes in, and how the panel can decide on them and when in the year? (possibly do a years voting starting January 1st, and decide the years entries in the month of January onwards for the previous year - so 2009 would have games released in 1998 or earlier added, etc....maybe do it monthly) I'll jot down these ideas once people have had time to comment on the entire list - I'll note down all of this, all of your concerns and also "What is happening about the missing years" - we might just do a catchup of them, who knows? Andrew Stuart Feldhamer wrote: OK, so I can understand Steve Meretzky and Warren Spector, and even Henry Lowood, but who are the other 2 people on the panel? I mean, why were they chosen? Funny you should mention the National Film Registry: http://www.loc.gov/film/vote.html I am still digesting your comments about collectors and oral histories. Stuart -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Jan 19 10:39:53 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:39:53 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas (Please respond!) In-Reply-To: <49749d20.2536640a.0cb7.574a@mx.google.com> References: <4973A504.3050900@aarmstrong.org> <4973df30.070fc00a.28bd.5b66@mx.google.com> <4973EAB6.9050804@aarmstrong.org> <49748c41.0906c00a.2578.1a5b@mx.google.com> <49749095.9040309@aarmstrong.org> <49749d20.2536640a.0cb7.574a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <49749EC9.5040209@aarmstrong.org> I'll just respond to one point of this; no awards. The sheer fact the game is historical significant should be enough. "Winning" something that you can get voted in every year until the earth explodes also isn't much of an accolade (or even, if one year you go up against "stuff competition" you'd be unable to ever win it again). Also, your point "I'm not sure that there are 10 culturally significant games produced every year anymore" is...odd. As a historian you should know that until you're 10 years (or more!) down the line you don't know what a historically significant game will be, especially since they don't have to be "culturally" significant, whatever that means ;) - they also don't have to be from the same year. While film has been going for longer, their registry has been going for MUCH longer. I think we'd be hard pressed not just having "classics" for the future 10, maybe 20 or 30 years of these, which is only 100-300 games or series'. For material, I don't think there is any lack of it for a canon. We'll see if anyone else has thoughts on this, and Henry also knows much more about how he organised it too. Andrew Stuart Feldhamer wrote: > > What I propose would be something like this: > > > > First of all, I think 10 games per year is too many. (As an aside, I'm > not sure that there are 10 culturally significant games produced every > year anymore.) 10 games was good for the initial selection, but for > each year, it probably should be no more than 5, to increase the value > of a game getting in. > > > > A nominating committee is established to pick initial nominations > (maybe 10). The nominating committee members should be members of the > SIG. It would be nice if we can get Meretzky or Spector or the like to > be on the nominating committee, but again, they should be members of > the SIG if this is a SIG project. I would try to establish a process > whereby members of the committee are willing to step down if someone > more "worthy" for lack of a better word becomes willing to serve. > > > > Once initial nominations are made as a group by the committee to the > SIG, they are debated by the SIG members on this email list or the > subsequent forums. The committee reviews the feedback and may choose > to modify their nomination selections as a result. > > > > Once the slate is final, it is put forward to the general membership > of the IGDA for voting. Say for example they can vote for 5 of the 10 > nominations to make it into the canon. This should go out to the > membership similar to the emails that go out for voting for the IGDA > board, with some time period for responding. > > > > The "winners" are presented at a GDC panel (without being revealed in > advance), with some kind of award given to the lead > developer/designer/producer/creative team/whatever. Since IGDA members > will have voted, there will be much more buzz around this and a desire > to see who wins, and I would be very surprised if this wasn't > something that GDC would be interested in hosting. > > > > As an aside, we need to do a much better job of "canonizing" those > titles that do make it into the canon. > > > > Stuart > > > > > > > > *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org > [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Andrew > Armstrong > *Sent:* Monday, January 19, 2009 9:39 AM > *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG > *Subject:* Re: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas > (Please respond!) > > > > Yeah, I checked that out before responding myself. They take up to 50 > votes per person, films must be 10 years old, and the votes are taken > into account. It's interesting as a system (I might also have to email > them about it, see how it is setup, how it runs in the background, etc.) > > The problem? we're so unknown that even Videogame > museums/archives/collections don't know who we are. There simply isn't > a critical mass of experts in this SIG, and certainly any votes like > that for 50 games would be, well, a dozen or so maybe? It'd be a bit > silly, to be honest. It'd also have to be international, too, and for > all the good game fans there are some who love to ballot stuff. I'll > have to do some kind of online system I think if we did the public > vote thing :) > > We'd need to setup a proper site. Devin; to respond to Gamastura or > whatever, I have no idea about that, maybe that is a route. I still > need to build a site to host some information about the canon games > (like the NFR website to a degree, certainly better then a Wiki > however, since it needs forms for ballots etc.). > > I think the reason Matteo Bittanti helped was he's part of the > Stanford stuff - > http://www.stanford.edu/group/htgg/cgi-bin/drupal/?q=blog/15 (and > here: http://mbf.blogs.com/about.html ), so academically inclined like > Henry, and Christopher Grant was a journalist (and still, at Joystiq, > who did express some interest in hosting a monthly "Game of Canon" or > something), so had that perspective - it's important of course not to > just see what the developers and historians think is important, but > what the press and players think is important too. I also think they > were not just "oh, I have 2 picks, my faves can go in", they got > discussed. > > It was only a start, as far as I know Henry never intended it to be > like that forever or anything, but I doubt you could get a set of > games decided on using a complex system of voting (which needs to be > done a full year in advance) then having a larger set of experts > deciding - in 2007, there were much less members here then there were > now too :) > > For last years I am sure Henry did some work on that and got 10 more > too, but I can't recall who he mentioned helping, I think Simon > Carless was involved too though. > > I'll look into this though as a serious project if you have some more > ideas. Can you put forward what you think would be a "Perfect" system > for releasing up to 10 games per year into the Canon of games? How to > publicise it, maybe how to get public votes in, and how the panel can > decide on them and when in the year? (possibly do a years voting > starting January 1st, and decide the years entries in the month of > January onwards for the previous year - so 2009 would have games > released in 1998 or earlier added, etc....maybe do it monthly) > > I'll jot down these ideas once people have had time to comment on the > entire list - I'll note down all of this, all of your concerns and > also "What is happening about the missing years" - we might just do a > catchup of them, who knows? > > Andrew > > Stuart Feldhamer wrote: > > OK, so I can understand Steve Meretzky and Warren Spector, and even > Henry Lowood, but who are the other 2 people on the panel? I mean, why > were they chosen? > > > > Funny you should mention the National Film Registry: > > > > http://www.loc.gov/film/vote.html > > > > I am still digesting your comments about collectors and oral histories... > > > > Stuart > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 10:52:14 2009 From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:52:14 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] FW: Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas (Please respond!) Message-ID: <4974a1a8.0136640a.0520.6fa7@mx.google.com> Whoops, somehow I sent this just to Andrew. Stuart From: Stuart Feldhamer [mailto:stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:52 AM To: 'Andrew Armstrong' Subject: RE: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas (Please respond!) OK, point taken on my comment about 10 games per year. That was more of a whining complaint about how most games today are derivative of earlier works. And yes, I know that all media is derivative, I just mean that game released today are less likely to be worthy of canonization than games released 30 years ago, at least in my opinion. Stuart From: Andrew Armstrong [mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org] Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:40 AM To: stuart at feldhamer.com; IGDA Game Preservation SIG Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas (Please respond!) I'll just respond to one point of this; no awards. The sheer fact the game is historical significant should be enough. "Winning" something that you can get voted in every year until the earth explodes also isn't much of an accolade (or even, if one year you go up against "stuff competition" you'd be unable to ever win it again). Also, your point "I'm not sure that there are 10 culturally significant games produced every year anymore" is...odd. As a historian you should know that until you're 10 years (or more!) down the line you don't know what a historically significant game will be, especially since they don't have to be "culturally" significant, whatever that means ;) - they also don't have to be from the same year. While film has been going for longer, their registry has been going for MUCH longer. I think we'd be hard pressed not just having "classics" for the future 10, maybe 20 or 30 years of these, which is only 100-300 games or series'. For material, I don't think there is any lack of it for a canon. We'll see if anyone else has thoughts on this, and Henry also knows much more about how he organised it too. Andrew Stuart Feldhamer wrote: What I propose would be something like this: First of all, I think 10 games per year is too many. (As an aside, I'm not sure that there are 10 culturally significant games produced every year anymore.) 10 games was good for the initial selection, but for each year, it probably should be no more than 5, to increase the value of a game getting in. A nominating committee is established to pick initial nominations (maybe 10). The nominating committee members should be members of the SIG. It would be nice if we can get Meretzky or Spector or the like to be on the nominating committee, but again, they should be members of the SIG if this is a SIG project. I would try to establish a process whereby members of the committee are willing to step down if someone more "worthy" for lack of a better word becomes willing to serve. Once initial nominations are made as a group by the committee to the SIG, they are debated by the SIG members on this email list or the subsequent forums. The committee reviews the feedback and may choose to modify their nomination selections as a result. Once the slate is final, it is put forward to the general membership of the IGDA for voting. Say for example they can vote for 5 of the 10 nominations to make it into the canon. This should go out to the membership similar to the emails that go out for voting for the IGDA board, with some time period for responding. The "winners" are presented at a GDC panel (without being revealed in advance), with some kind of award given to the lead developer/designer/producer/creative team/whatever. Since IGDA members will have voted, there will be much more buzz around this and a desire to see who wins, and I would be very surprised if this wasn't something that GDC would be interested in hosting. As an aside, we need to do a much better job of "canonizing" those titles that do make it into the canon. Stuart From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Armstrong Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:39 AM To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas (Please respond!) Yeah, I checked that out before responding myself. They take up to 50 votes per person, films must be 10 years old, and the votes are taken into account. It's interesting as a system (I might also have to email them about it, see how it is setup, how it runs in the background, etc.) The problem? we're so unknown that even Videogame museums/archives/collections don't know who we are. There simply isn't a critical mass of experts in this SIG, and certainly any votes like that for 50 games would be, well, a dozen or so maybe? It'd be a bit silly, to be honest. It'd also have to be international, too, and for all the good game fans there are some who love to ballot stuff. I'll have to do some kind of online system I think if we did the public vote thing :) We'd need to setup a proper site. Devin; to respond to Gamastura or whatever, I have no idea about that, maybe that is a route. I still need to build a site to host some information about the canon games (like the NFR website to a degree, certainly better then a Wiki however, since it needs forms for ballots etc.). I think the reason Matteo Bittanti helped was he's part of the Stanford stuff - http://www.stanford.edu/group/htgg/cgi-bin/drupal/?q=blog/15 (and here: http://mbf.blogs.com/about.html ), so academically inclined like Henry, and Christopher Grant was a journalist (and still, at Joystiq, who did express some interest in hosting a monthly "Game of Canon" or something), so had that perspective - it's important of course not to just see what the developers and historians think is important, but what the press and players think is important too. I also think they were not just "oh, I have 2 picks, my faves can go in", they got discussed. It was only a start, as far as I know Henry never intended it to be like that forever or anything, but I doubt you could get a set of games decided on using a complex system of voting (which needs to be done a full year in advance) then having a larger set of experts deciding - in 2007, there were much less members here then there were now too :) For last years I am sure Henry did some work on that and got 10 more too, but I can't recall who he mentioned helping, I think Simon Carless was involved too though. I'll look into this though as a serious project if you have some more ideas. Can you put forward what you think would be a "Perfect" system for releasing up to 10 games per year into the Canon of games? How to publicise it, maybe how to get public votes in, and how the panel can decide on them and when in the year? (possibly do a years voting starting January 1st, and decide the years entries in the month of January onwards for the previous year - so 2009 would have games released in 1998 or earlier added, etc....maybe do it monthly) I'll jot down these ideas once people have had time to comment on the entire list - I'll note down all of this, all of your concerns and also "What is happening about the missing years" - we might just do a catchup of them, who knows? Andrew Stuart Feldhamer wrote: OK, so I can understand Steve Meretzky and Warren Spector, and even Henry Lowood, but who are the other 2 people on the panel? I mean, why were they chosen? Funny you should mention the National Film Registry: http://www.loc.gov/film/vote.html I am still digesting your comments about collectors and oral histories. Stuart _____ _______________________________________________ game_preservation mailing list game_preservation at igda.org http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Jan 19 11:39:47 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:39:47 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] FW: Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas (Please respond!) In-Reply-To: <4974a1a8.0136640a.0520.6fa7@mx.google.com> References: <4974a1a8.0136640a.0520.6fa7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4974ACD3.6000009@aarmstrong.org> Hmm, fair enough. I think possibly 2008 was a "bit dead" in certain ways, but there was promise, and some gems (No More Heroes and Sins of a Solar Empire both are outstanding fun, for instance. There were also a few Indie games I'd put weight behind for Canon for inventiveness, like Braid). The thing is, history doesn't work in "Years". There were some points where gamers basically had a half-dozen "Must play" games in a Christmas period. Such a Christmas-centric industry (for some bizarre reasoning) makes it either a "Good" or "Bad" year, instead of those successes being spread out more. However, if you can remember off the top of your head even 5 games from 1998 that should be "canon" without checking release date lists, you'd be better then me since I can't (it was a major year for sequels though, since I know Opposing Force came out then for Half-Life) :) Andrew Stuart Feldhamer wrote: > > Whoops, somehow I sent this just to Andrew. > > > > Stuart > > > > *From:* Stuart Feldhamer [mailto:stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Monday, January 19, 2009 10:52 AM > *To:* 'Andrew Armstrong' > *Subject:* RE: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas > (Please respond!) > > > > OK, point taken on my comment about 10 games per year. That was more > of a whining complaint about how most games today are derivative of > earlier works. And yes, I know that all media is derivative, I just > mean that game released today are less likely to be worthy of > canonization than games released 30 years ago, at least in my opinion. > > > > Stuart > > > > *From:* Andrew Armstrong [mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org] > *Sent:* Monday, January 19, 2009 10:40 AM > *To:* stuart at feldhamer.com; IGDA Game Preservation SIG > *Subject:* Re: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas > (Please respond!) > > > > I'll just respond to one point of this; no awards. The sheer fact the > game is historical significant should be enough. "Winning" something > that you can get voted in every year until the earth explodes also > isn't much of an accolade (or even, if one year you go up against > "stuff competition" you'd be unable to ever win it again). > > Also, your point "I'm not sure that there are 10 culturally > significant games produced every year anymore" is...odd. As a > historian you should know that until you're 10 years (or more!) down > the line you don't know what a historically significant game will be, > especially since they don't have to be "culturally" significant, > whatever that means ;) - they also don't have to be from the same > year. While film has been going for longer, their registry has been > going for MUCH longer. I think we'd be hard pressed not just having > "classics" for the future 10, maybe 20 or 30 years of these, which is > only 100-300 games or series'. For material, I don't think there is > any lack of it for a canon. > > We'll see if anyone else has thoughts on this, and Henry also knows > much more about how he organised it too. > > Andrew > > Stuart Feldhamer wrote: > > What I propose would be something like this: > > > > First of all, I think 10 games per year is too many. (As an aside, I'm > not sure that there are 10 culturally significant games produced every > year anymore.) 10 games was good for the initial selection, but for > each year, it probably should be no more than 5, to increase the value > of a game getting in. > > > > A nominating committee is established to pick initial nominations > (maybe 10). The nominating committee members should be members of the > SIG. It would be nice if we can get Meretzky or Spector or the like to > be on the nominating committee, but again, they should be members of > the SIG if this is a SIG project. I would try to establish a process > whereby members of the committee are willing to step down if someone > more "worthy" for lack of a better word becomes willing to serve. > > > > Once initial nominations are made as a group by the committee to the > SIG, they are debated by the SIG members on this email list or the > subsequent forums. The committee reviews the feedback and may choose > to modify their nomination selections as a result. > > > > Once the slate is final, it is put forward to the general membership > of the IGDA for voting. Say for example they can vote for 5 of the 10 > nominations to make it into the canon. This should go out to the > membership similar to the emails that go out for voting for the IGDA > board, with some time period for responding. > > > > The "winners" are presented at a GDC panel (without being revealed in > advance), with some kind of award given to the lead > developer/designer/producer/creative team/whatever. Since IGDA members > will have voted, there will be much more buzz around this and a desire > to see who wins, and I would be very surprised if this wasn't > something that GDC would be interested in hosting. > > > > As an aside, we need to do a much better job of "canonizing" those > titles that do make it into the canon. > > > > Stuart > > > > > > > > *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org > > [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Andrew > Armstrong > *Sent:* Monday, January 19, 2009 9:39 AM > *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG > *Subject:* Re: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas > (Please respond!) > > > > Yeah, I checked that out before responding myself. They take up to 50 > votes per person, films must be 10 years old, and the votes are taken > into account. It's interesting as a system (I might also have to email > them about it, see how it is setup, how it runs in the background, etc.) > > The problem? we're so unknown that even Videogame > museums/archives/collections don't know who we are. There simply isn't > a critical mass of experts in this SIG, and certainly any votes like > that for 50 games would be, well, a dozen or so maybe? It'd be a bit > silly, to be honest. It'd also have to be international, too, and for > all the good game fans there are some who love to ballot stuff. I'll > have to do some kind of online system I think if we did the public > vote thing :) > > We'd need to setup a proper site. Devin; to respond to Gamastura or > whatever, I have no idea about that, maybe that is a route. I still > need to build a site to host some information about the canon games > (like the NFR website to a degree, certainly better then a Wiki > however, since it needs forms for ballots etc.). > > I think the reason Matteo Bittanti helped was he's part of the > Stanford stuff - > http://www.stanford.edu/group/htgg/cgi-bin/drupal/?q=blog/15 (and > here: http://mbf.blogs.com/about.html ), so academically inclined like > Henry, and Christopher Grant was a journalist (and still, at Joystiq, > who did express some interest in hosting a monthly "Game of Canon" or > something), so had that perspective - it's important of course not to > just see what the developers and historians think is important, but > what the press and players think is important too. I also think they > were not just "oh, I have 2 picks, my faves can go in", they got > discussed. > > It was only a start, as far as I know Henry never intended it to be > like that forever or anything, but I doubt you could get a set of > games decided on using a complex system of voting (which needs to be > done a full year in advance) then having a larger set of experts > deciding - in 2007, there were much less members here then there were > now too :) > > For last years I am sure Henry did some work on that and got 10 more > too, but I can't recall who he mentioned helping, I think Simon > Carless was involved too though. > > I'll look into this though as a serious project if you have some more > ideas. Can you put forward what you think would be a "Perfect" system > for releasing up to 10 games per year into the Canon of games? How to > publicise it, maybe how to get public votes in, and how the panel can > decide on them and when in the year? (possibly do a years voting > starting January 1st, and decide the years entries in the month of > January onwards for the previous year - so 2009 would have games > released in 1998 or earlier added, etc....maybe do it monthly) > > I'll jot down these ideas once people have had time to comment on the > entire list - I'll note down all of this, all of your concerns and > also "What is happening about the missing years" - we might just do a > catchup of them, who knows? > > Andrew > > Stuart Feldhamer wrote: > > OK, so I can understand Steve Meretzky and Warren Spector, and even > Henry Lowood, but who are the other 2 people on the panel? I mean, why > were they chosen? > > > > Funny you should mention the National Film Registry: > > > > http://www.loc.gov/film/vote.html > > > > I am still digesting your comments about collectors and oral histories... > > > > Stuart > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 14:06:42 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:06:42 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] FW: Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas (Please respond!) In-Reply-To: <4974ACD3.6000009@aarmstrong.org> References: <4974a1a8.0136640a.0520.6fa7@mx.google.com> <4974ACD3.6000009@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: Well, Ocarina of Time came out in '98. If that's not canonical, I don't know what would be. I actually don't think we need 10 canonical games to be made each year. I think there are some years with film and literature where there really isn't that much produced that's actually worth looking at (and some where it is a 'good year' or 'renaissance' and there are more than 10). Further, if you took 10 things a year, your canon would begin to get very unwieldy (1000 films is already beyond the level where an ordinary person could know each one intimately, and perhaps even see each one in a lifetime. Of course, we'd have to do this for 100 years to get a thousand games, but by then I HOPE we'll have more interesting games. I also think that before we get to that point, there will probably be some changes to the system - for instance, how can we go about preserving 10 other games when we can't preserve any of the historical material regarding these others? Maybe we really do need more than ten games to start with... More importantly though, I'd like to know what the criteria were for selecting a game for the DGC. They're oddly not listed on the wiki, and none of the news articles say anything about it. -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Jan 19 14:15:02 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:15:02 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Spring Cleaning the SIG, +2009 ideas (Please respond!) In-Reply-To: <4973A504.3050900@aarmstrong.org> References: <4973A504.3050900@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <4974D136.9010800@aarmstrong.org> Quick addition to my notes here; I need to add in a good section about what we need volunteer wise. At the moment there's one line to just say "we can do with volunteers" which isn't very specific. I'll make a short bullet pointed list for this. Suggestions welcome! Andrew Andrew Armstrong wrote: > I'm gearing up to revamp the SIG wiki pages, to make them, well, more > readable for starters. Big blocks of text do not help a casual reader, > and the page is huge. From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Jan 19 14:17:35 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:17:35 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] FW: Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas (Please respond!) In-Reply-To: References: <4974a1a8.0136640a.0520.6fa7@mx.google.com> <4974ACD3.6000009@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <4974D1CF.7080605@aarmstrong.org> Also, note that 2008 was a terrible year for films, canonically. The "Best Oscar" will possibly look a bit bad, where as other years, every nomination could have won it. The criteria, as far as I'm aware, was just a private discussion. Since, after checking the archives, this mailing list was about dead, I wasn't surprised to hear it wasn't more formally done or publicly done, since it was only meant as a starting point for "these games are important, do something!" kinda thing. Henry could explain more I guess, hopefully I've not been wrong in my thoughts on it so far. Andrew Devin Monnens wrote: > Well, Ocarina of Time came out in '98. If that's not canonical, I > don't know what would be. > > I actually don't think we need 10 canonical games to be made each > year. I think there are some years with film and literature where > there really isn't that much produced that's actually worth looking at > (and some where it is a 'good year' or 'renaissance' and there are > more than 10). Further, if you took 10 things a year, your canon would > begin to get very unwieldy (1000 films is already beyond the level > where an ordinary person could know each one intimately, and perhaps > even see each one in a lifetime. Of course, we'd have to do this for > 100 years to get a thousand games, but by then I HOPE we'll have more > interesting games. I also think that before we get to that point, > there will probably be some changes to the system - for instance, how > can we go about preserving 10 other games when we can't preserve any > of the historical material regarding these others? Maybe we really do > need more than ten games to start with... > > More importantly though, I'd like to know what the criteria were for > selecting a game for the DGC. They're oddly not listed on the wiki, > and none of the news articles say anything about it. > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Jan 19 15:09:20 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:09:20 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Calling for resources! Books! Websites! Whatever! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4974DDF0.9080805@aarmstrong.org> Just a note - thanks again for these Chris! I managed to sort adding them along with my two reference books to the list. More welcome from anyone however, especially with notes like Chris has, since I don't really want to source books randomly off Amazon if I don't know what is in them first! Andrew Chris Lepine wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > I can recommend a few books on the subject of video games that I've > read over the years. AFAIK, none are available as a free download ... > but they do provide a great sense of game history: > > Dungeons and Desktops, by Matt Barton > http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Desktops-History-Computer-Role-playing/dp/1568814119 > (probably the most comprehensive history of role playing games ever > written - he literally reviews a huge number of games, talks about > their design, style, etc) > > Masters of Doom: How Two Guys Created an Empire and Transformed Pop > Culture, by David Kushner > http://www.amazon.com/Masters-Doom-Created-Transformed-Culture/dp/0375505245 > (the history of id software - very good storytelling, and insights > into the personalities of the two Johns) > > The Ultimate History of Video Games: From Pong to Pokemon, by Steven > L. Kent > http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-History-Video-Games-Pokemon/dp/0761536434 > (more of a referential history of video games) > > Dungeons and Dreamers: The Rise of Computer Game Culture from Geek to > Chic, by Brad King & John Borland > http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dreamers-Rise-Computer-Culture/dp/0072228881 > (some good storytelling that follows the life of Richard Garriott > among others - it gave me a good sense for how Ultima was conceived in > relation to his personal life) > > Halcyon Days: Interviews with Classic Computer and Video Game > Programmers, by James Hague > http://www.dadgum.com/halcyon/ > (free, interesting, interviews with some of the big names of the 80s > and early 90s - it gave me a sense for the development challenges that > developers face) > > And although these are only tangentially related, books on the > development of the Commodore 64 and Apple //e are extremely important > for understanding the history of video games as they helped to create > the possibility for mass-market computer games: > > Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution, Steven Levy > http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/729 > > On The Edge: The Spectacular Rise and Fall of Commodore, by Brian Bagnall > http://www.variantpress.com/books/on-the-edge > (seems to be temporarily Out of Stock) > > Hope that helps. > > - Chris > > --- > The Artful Gamer: In Search of the Lyrical and Poetic in Video Games > http://www.artfulgamer.com > >> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 00:44:36 +0000 >> From: Andrew Armstrong > > >> Subject: [game_preservation] Calling for resources! Books! Websites! >> Whatever! >> To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG > > >> Message-ID: <49669DF4.4070907 at aarmstrong.org >> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> I'm now board of not updating the resources and projects pages: >> >> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/Resources >> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/Projects >> >> I need your links, books, website and whatever you think is historically >> related to videogames. I'm more aiming at broader sites with videogame >> knowledge (so I'll be adding http://www.wikia.com/ and >> http://www.magweasel.com/ for instance). However, if you can provide a >> specific article, great! (better if it covers more then one game >> however). >> >> I will be trying (in between getting a job, grr, and doing some other >> bits) sorting out the page at least filling it with random links for >> now. In the future I hope to get the domains I've had for a while for >> the Digital Game Canon project online and with a quick and dirty >> PHP/MySQL solution so I can add these links in much better ways (so I >> can tag them, have source lines generated, have boxes for the URL or >> item name, page references, etc.). >> >> ALL HELP IS APPRECIATED! Honestly, there are a LOT of sites I've visited >> I need to add now, but also there are a lot I have not! One of them may >> be yours! Post it! >> >> And if there is any other site which helps list game >> history/preservation projects, resources and links, please, I'd love to >> know of it :) >> >> Thanks, >> >> Andrew > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Jan 19 15:36:45 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:36:45 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] SIG Icon - Joystick and Belljar In-Reply-To: <49727C4C.4070608@aarmstrong.org> References: <4967910B.7040803@aarmstrong.org> <49727C4C.4070608@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <4974E45D.70608@aarmstrong.org> I think I might have to redo the base to be a better perspective and do the glass dome better, but here is thicker glass with no handle: http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Belljar+over+Joystick+thicker+glass+no+handle.png.html I made it a bit taller to compensate, might redo it so it's a bit shorter with the bigger base. I also did what amounted to a bit of darkening around the bottom of the base rather then making it black. I will probably go and make the base bigger then the glass (as it should be usually) so I can make it clearer all around it. In any case, it's a bit of progress. Andrew Andrew Armstrong wrote: > I'll look to do one without the glass knob, and sort the glass edge > going around the base (depending on how it looks, I'll also do a thin > glass version to compare). Give me a while - maybe will do it tomorrow. > > As for font, if you can find a entirely free Truetype font available, > which looks better, go for it. I just wanted one that matched what > simple work I did previously - not necessarily iconic "bit" fonts, so > if you can find one which matches monospaced terminal input, that'd be > cool. I don't know any decent sites for finding it though (I found > that one via. google). > > The IGDA colours? well, I need to really sort the IGDA history (yeah, > I started the Wiki project, it's still in limbo. Not that anyone > really cares or knows about it, since I've not told anyone, hehe), > that'd be something good to sort. I'll ask Jason how they got their > icon and colours, and note it on the wiki. Probably entirely boring > ("It looks good") but there we go ;) > > Andrew > > Devin Monnens wrote: >> Thicker glass looks better, though doesn't the glass go around the >> base as well? Still not sure about the knob at the top (even though I >> suggested it in the first place!). Could our font be a little >> different? Is there a less generic pixel font we could use? >> >> Colors look fine - in line with IGDA colors. BTW, does anyone know >> what the IGDA colors actually STAND for? > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation From evilcowclone at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 15:40:46 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:40:46 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] SIG Icon - Joystick and Belljar In-Reply-To: <4974E45D.70608@aarmstrong.org> References: <4967910B.7040803@aarmstrong.org> <49727C4C.4070608@aarmstrong.org> <4974E45D.70608@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: Ok yeah, base seems to look better now. You'll need another opinion about the nob at the top. I'm not sure if it looks good or not anymore. On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 1:36 PM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: > I think I might have to redo the base to be a better perspective and do the > glass dome better, but here is thicker glass with no handle: > > > http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Belljar+over+Joystick+thicker+glass+no+handle.png.html > > I made it a bit taller to compensate, might redo it so it's a bit shorter > with the bigger base. I also did what amounted to a bit of darkening around > the bottom of the base rather then making it black. I will probably go and > make the base bigger then the glass (as it should be usually) so I can make > it clearer all around it. > > In any case, it's a bit of progress. > > Andrew > > > Andrew Armstrong wrote: > >> I'll look to do one without the glass knob, and sort the glass edge going >> around the base (depending on how it looks, I'll also do a thin glass >> version to compare). Give me a while - maybe will do it tomorrow. >> >> As for font, if you can find a entirely free Truetype font available, >> which looks better, go for it. I just wanted one that matched what simple >> work I did previously - not necessarily iconic "bit" fonts, so if you can >> find one which matches monospaced terminal input, that'd be cool. I don't >> know any decent sites for finding it though (I found that one via. google). >> >> The IGDA colours? well, I need to really sort the IGDA history (yeah, I >> started the Wiki project, it's still in limbo. Not that anyone really cares >> or knows about it, since I've not told anyone, hehe), that'd be something >> good to sort. I'll ask Jason how they got their icon and colours, and note >> it on the wiki. Probably entirely boring ("It looks good") but there we go >> ;) >> >> Andrew >> >> Devin Monnens wrote: >> >>> Thicker glass looks better, though doesn't the glass go around the base >>> as well? Still not sure about the knob at the top (even though I suggested >>> it in the first place!). Could our font be a little different? Is there a >>> less generic pixel font we could use? >>> >>> Colors look fine - in line with IGDA colors. BTW, does anyone know what >>> the IGDA colors actually STAND for? >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Jan 19 18:03:48 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 23:03:48 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] SIG Icon - Joystick and Belljar In-Reply-To: References: <4967910B.7040803@aarmstrong.org> <49727C4C.4070608@aarmstrong.org> <4974E45D.70608@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <497506D4.6040909@aarmstrong.org> Well, I think now I need to redo it so it fits better with a "thicker rim" which does look better, especially at smaller sizes. The joystick is okay, but if I extend the base a bit (and make it a bit more "perspective accurate") and redo the top dome (so it's more "dome like") the nob at the top can be added later anyway. A more rounded top and better base can allow it to be there or not. I'll see if I can do it tomorrow, thanks for the feedback. Also; I got some information about the IGDA theme/logo. There is no significance as far as the source said, and it was just something the CMP's internal graphic designer came up with that got accepted by the board. So there you go :) Andrew Devin Monnens wrote: > Ok yeah, base seems to look better now. You'll need another opinion > about the nob at the top. I'm not sure if it looks good or not anymore. > > On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 1:36 PM, Andrew Armstrong > > wrote: > > I think I might have to redo the base to be a better perspective > and do the glass dome better, but here is thicker glass with no > handle: > > http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Belljar+over+Joystick+thicker+glass+no+handle.png.html > > I made it a bit taller to compensate, might redo it so it's a bit > shorter with the bigger base. I also did what amounted to a bit of > darkening around the bottom of the base rather then making it > black. I will probably go and make the base bigger then the glass > (as it should be usually) so I can make it clearer all around it. > > In any case, it's a bit of progress. > > Andrew > > > Andrew Armstrong wrote: > > I'll look to do one without the glass knob, and sort the glass > edge going around the base (depending on how it looks, I'll > also do a thin glass version to compare). Give me a while - > maybe will do it tomorrow. > > As for font, if you can find a entirely free Truetype font > available, which looks better, go for it. I just wanted one > that matched what simple work I did previously - not > necessarily iconic "bit" fonts, so if you can find one which > matches monospaced terminal input, that'd be cool. I don't > know any decent sites for finding it though (I found that one > via. google). > > The IGDA colours? well, I need to really sort the IGDA history > (yeah, I started the Wiki project, it's still in limbo. Not > that anyone really cares or knows about it, since I've not > told anyone, hehe), that'd be something good to sort. I'll ask > Jason how they got their icon and colours, and note it on the > wiki. Probably entirely boring ("It looks good") but there we > go ;) > > Andrew > > Devin Monnens wrote: > > Thicker glass looks better, though doesn't the glass go > around the base as well? Still not sure about the knob at > the top (even though I suggested it in the first place!). > Could our font be a little different? Is there a less > generic pixel font we could use? > > Colors look fine - in line with IGDA colors. BTW, does > anyone know what the IGDA colors actually STAND for? > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 20:30:37 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:30:37 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Mobygames and KLOV Message-ID: I was reading Judd and Ken's article on Beyond the Steady State, which has a discussion about Mobygames and KLOV and how the contents of the archive are essentially metadata rather than games themselves. http://flowtv.org/?p=50 One thing I think that's worth asking is whether or not Mobygames and KLOV (and Arcade-History, for that matter!) have their own physical collections of games. Some of the people involved must be game collectors and have personal collections, but I wonder if the database itself has a physical archive somewhere... -Devin -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Jan 19 20:36:20 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 01:36:20 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Mobygames and KLOV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49752A94.1010101@aarmstrong.org> From what Jim has said on this very list, and what I've looked at the KLOV, they're both user submitted metadata information databases (ie; they don't actually contain the objects they have data about). I also read their article, and think the term is entirely correct, there's not much more then that to say, I guess. The KLOV however has associated parts that seem to host events (or is there an actual coin op museum?), no doubt private collectors maintain it but I've not investigated further, and should email them to get some contact going. I'd also be interested to know about their situation. Andrew Devin Monnens wrote: > I was reading Judd and Ken's article on Beyond the Steady State, which > has a discussion about Mobygames and KLOV and how the contents of the > archive are essentially metadata rather than games themselves. > > http://flowtv.org/?p=50 > > One thing I think that's worth asking is whether or not Mobygames and > KLOV (and Arcade-History, for that matter!) have their own physical > collections of games. Some of the people involved must be game > collectors and have personal collections, but I wonder if the database > itself has a physical archive somewhere... > > -Devin > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fcifaldi at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 21:09:44 2009 From: fcifaldi at gmail.com (Frank Cifaldi) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:09:44 -0800 Subject: [game_preservation] Mobygames and KLOV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all. I'm sorry if this is an inopportune time to barge in here, but I've been too busy with work to monitor this conversation closely. You guys are talking about meeting and keeping in contact with game collectors, right? I talked about this with Henry during a brief meeting at Stanford, I know a good deal of very serious game collectors, we're talking people with complete libraries for most major consoles. No computer collectors have ever come close to Cabrinety, but as far as dedicated game consoles, give me a game and I can probably name someone who owns it off the top of my head. Your best bet for a starting point contact is a fellow by the name of Joe Santulli. Joe is the co-founder of Digital Press (http://digitpress.com), which has undergone a few faces since its founding in the early 90s, including a "zine," a video game collector's guide, the website (including a gigantic database that is more accurate and complete but less rich than Moby's), and now a shop in New Jersey. Joe has one of the most impressive collections in the world, and is a totally affable guy who is good friends with just about all of the other major collectors. On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Devin Monnens wrote: > I was reading Judd and Ken's article on Beyond the Steady State, which has > a discussion about Mobygames and KLOV and how the contents of the archive > are essentially metadata rather than games themselves. > > http://flowtv.org/?p=50 > > One thing I think that's worth asking is whether or not Mobygames and KLOV > (and Arcade-History, for that matter!) have their own physical collections > of games. Some of the people involved must be game collectors and have > personal collections, but I wonder if the database itself has a physical > archive somewhere... > > -Devin > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jan 20 00:21:27 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 23:21:27 -0600 Subject: [game_preservation] Mobygames and KLOV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49755F57.6070203@oldskool.org> Devin Monnens wrote: > One thing I think that's worth asking is whether or not Mobygames and > KLOV (and Arcade-History, for that matter!) have their own physical > collections of games. Some of the people involved must be game > collectors and have personal collections, but I wonder if the database > itself has a physical archive somewhere... No, we (MobyGames) do not own or retain a physical collection (other than our own personal collections). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From andrew at aarmstrong.org Tue Jan 20 06:41:21 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:41:21 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Mobygames and KLOV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4975B861.8010702@aarmstrong.org> Hey Frank, Good starting locations for information, the main thing is we don't have anyone spare to do the research, although it is something important we should have an ear on. If anyone has the time to follow up Frank's advice for the SIG and fill out information on collectors, collector communities, etc. tell us and then go for it :) If in a month or more I have time I'll try chasing it up myself. Andrew Frank Cifaldi wrote: > Hi all. I'm sorry if this is an inopportune time to barge in here, but > I've been too busy with work to monitor this conversation closely. > > You guys are talking about meeting and keeping in contact with game > collectors, right? I talked about this with Henry during a brief > meeting at Stanford, I know a good deal of very serious game > collectors, we're talking people with complete libraries for most > major consoles. No computer collectors have ever come close to > Cabrinety, but as far as dedicated game consoles, give me a game and I > can probably name someone who owns it off the top of my head. > > Your best bet for a starting point contact is a fellow by the name of > Joe Santulli. Joe is the co-founder of Digital Press > (http://digitpress.com), which has undergone a few faces since its > founding in the early 90s, including a "zine," a video game > collector's guide, the website (including a gigantic database that is > more accurate and complete but less rich than Moby's), and now a shop > in New Jersey. Joe has one of the most impressive collections in the > world, and is a totally affable guy who is good friends with just > about all of the other major collectors. > > On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Devin Monnens > wrote: > > I was reading Judd and Ken's article on Beyond the Steady State, > which has a discussion about Mobygames and KLOV and how the > contents of the archive are essentially metadata rather than games > themselves. > > http://flowtv.org/?p=50 > > One thing I think that's worth asking is whether or not Mobygames > and KLOV (and Arcade-History, for that matter!) have their own > physical collections of games. Some of the people involved must be > game collectors and have personal collections, but I wonder if the > database itself has a physical archive somewhere... > > -Devin > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fcifaldi at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 10:07:23 2009 From: fcifaldi at gmail.com (Frank Cifaldi) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:07:23 -0800 Subject: [game_preservation] Mobygames and KLOV In-Reply-To: <4975B861.8010702@aarmstrong.org> References: <4975B861.8010702@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: If someone wants to define exactly what level of information we need, I can "fill in the blanks," so to speak, with the data. I'm glad to help, I just need some structure first. On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 3:41 AM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Hey Frank, > > Good starting locations for information, the main thing is we don't have > anyone spare to do the research, although it is something important we > should have an ear on. If anyone has the time to follow up Frank's advice > for the SIG and fill out information on collectors, collector communities, > etc. tell us and then go for it :) > > If in a month or more I have time I'll try chasing it up myself. > > Andrew > > Frank Cifaldi wrote: > > Hi all. I'm sorry if this is an inopportune time to barge in here, but I've > been too busy with work to monitor this conversation closely. > > You guys are talking about meeting and keeping in contact with game > collectors, right? I talked about this with Henry during a brief meeting at > Stanford, I know a good deal of very serious game collectors, we're talking > people with complete libraries for most major consoles. No computer > collectors have ever come close to Cabrinety, but as far as dedicated game > consoles, give me a game and I can probably name someone who owns it off the > top of my head. > > Your best bet for a starting point contact is a fellow by the name of Joe > Santulli. Joe is the co-founder of Digital Press (http://digitpress.com), > which has undergone a few faces since its founding in the early 90s, > including a "zine," a video game collector's guide, the website (including a > gigantic database that is more accurate and complete but less rich than > Moby's), and now a shop in New Jersey. Joe has one of the most impressive > collections in the world, and is a totally affable guy who is good friends > with just about all of the other major collectors. > > On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Devin Monnens wrote: > >> I was reading Judd and Ken's article on Beyond the Steady State, which has >> a discussion about Mobygames and KLOV and how the contents of the archive >> are essentially metadata rather than games themselves. >> >> http://flowtv.org/?p=50 >> >> One thing I think that's worth asking is whether or not Mobygames and KLOV >> (and Arcade-History, for that matter!) have their own physical collections >> of games. Some of the people involved must be game collectors and have >> personal collections, but I wonder if the database itself has a physical >> archive somewhere... >> >> -Devin >> >> -- >> The sleep of Reason produces monsters. >> >> "Until next time..." >> Captain Commando >> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> >> > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Tue Jan 20 10:50:54 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:50:54 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Mobygames and KLOV In-Reply-To: References: <4975B861.8010702@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <4975F2DE.5070904@aarmstrong.org> I'll try and get a list together of what I'd want to know and post it up, but since I'm not an archivist or historian I'm not too sure what would be most useful to them :) Andrew Frank Cifaldi wrote: > If someone wants to define exactly what level of information we need, > I can "fill in the blanks," so to speak, with the data. I'm glad to > help, I just need some structure first. > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 3:41 AM, Andrew Armstrong > > wrote: > > Hey Frank, > > Good starting locations for information, the main thing is we > don't have anyone spare to do the research, although it is > something important we should have an ear on. If anyone has the > time to follow up Frank's advice for the SIG and fill out > information on collectors, collector communities, etc. tell us and > then go for it :) > > If in a month or more I have time I'll try chasing it up myself. > > Andrew > > Frank Cifaldi wrote: >> Hi all. I'm sorry if this is an inopportune time to barge in >> here, but I've been too busy with work to monitor this >> conversation closely. >> >> You guys are talking about meeting and keeping in contact with >> game collectors, right? I talked about this with Henry during a >> brief meeting at Stanford, I know a good deal of very serious >> game collectors, we're talking people with complete libraries for >> most major consoles. No computer collectors have ever come close >> to Cabrinety, but as far as dedicated game consoles, give me a >> game and I can probably name someone who owns it off the top of >> my head. >> >> Your best bet for a starting point contact is a fellow by the >> name of Joe Santulli. Joe is the co-founder of Digital Press >> (http://digitpress.com), which has undergone a few faces since >> its founding in the early 90s, including a "zine," a video game >> collector's guide, the website (including a gigantic database >> that is more accurate and complete but less rich than Moby's), >> and now a shop in New Jersey. Joe has one of the most impressive >> collections in the world, and is a totally affable guy who is >> good friends with just about all of the other major collectors. >> >> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Devin Monnens >> > wrote: >> >> I was reading Judd and Ken's article on Beyond the Steady >> State, which has a discussion about Mobygames and KLOV and >> how the contents of the archive are essentially metadata >> rather than games themselves. >> >> http://flowtv.org/?p=50 >> >> One thing I think that's worth asking is whether or not >> Mobygames and KLOV (and Arcade-History, for that matter!) >> have their own physical collections of games. Some of the >> people involved must be game collectors and have personal >> collections, but I wonder if the database itself has a >> physical archive somewhere... >> >> -Devin >> >> -- >> The sleep of Reason produces monsters. >> >> "Until next time..." >> Captain Commando >> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ game_preservation >> mailing list game_preservation at igda.org >> >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 13:13:56 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:13:56 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Mobygames and KLOV In-Reply-To: <4975F2DE.5070904@aarmstrong.org> References: <4975B861.8010702@aarmstrong.org> <4975F2DE.5070904@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: I'd say some major elements would be things like 'care and feeding and organization' - that is: What is the extent of your collection? Why do you collect? Where would you like to expand your collection? How do you store your collection? (including specific storage material such as plastic envelopes and shoe boxes) What precautions do you take to ensure protection and longevity of materials? Do you create archival backups of rarer material or material in danger of bit rot? How familiar are you with standards for libraries and archives and do you think the care and storage of your collection matches those standards? How are your titles organized? Do you use a catalogue system? And - Do you have any interest in working together with libraries and archives conducting game preservation projects? Those are a few starters. Expand and critique. -Devin On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: > I'll try and get a list together of what I'd want to know and post it up, > but since I'm not an archivist or historian I'm not too sure what would be > most useful to them :) > > Andrew > > Frank Cifaldi wrote: > > If someone wants to define exactly what level of information we need, I can > "fill in the blanks," so to speak, with the data. I'm glad to help, I just > need some structure first. > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 3:41 AM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: > >> Hey Frank, >> >> Good starting locations for information, the main thing is we don't have >> anyone spare to do the research, although it is something important we >> should have an ear on. If anyone has the time to follow up Frank's advice >> for the SIG and fill out information on collectors, collector communities, >> etc. tell us and then go for it :) >> >> If in a month or more I have time I'll try chasing it up myself. >> >> Andrew >> >> Frank Cifaldi wrote: >> >> Hi all. I'm sorry if this is an inopportune time to barge in here, but >> I've been too busy with work to monitor this conversation closely. >> >> You guys are talking about meeting and keeping in contact with game >> collectors, right? I talked about this with Henry during a brief meeting at >> Stanford, I know a good deal of very serious game collectors, we're talking >> people with complete libraries for most major consoles. No computer >> collectors have ever come close to Cabrinety, but as far as dedicated game >> consoles, give me a game and I can probably name someone who owns it off the >> top of my head. >> >> Your best bet for a starting point contact is a fellow by the name of Joe >> Santulli. Joe is the co-founder of Digital Press (http://digitpress.com), >> which has undergone a few faces since its founding in the early 90s, >> including a "zine," a video game collector's guide, the website (including a >> gigantic database that is more accurate and complete but less rich than >> Moby's), and now a shop in New Jersey. Joe has one of the most impressive >> collections in the world, and is a totally affable guy who is good friends >> with just about all of the other major collectors. >> >> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Devin Monnens wrote: >> >>> I was reading Judd and Ken's article on Beyond the Steady State, which >>> has a discussion about Mobygames and KLOV and how the contents of the >>> archive are essentially metadata rather than games themselves. >>> >>> http://flowtv.org/?p=50 >>> >>> One thing I think that's worth asking is whether or not Mobygames and >>> KLOV (and Arcade-History, for that matter!) have their own physical >>> collections of games. Some of the people involved must be game collectors >>> and have personal collections, but I wonder if the database itself has a >>> physical archive somewhere... >>> >>> -Devin >>> >>> -- >>> The sleep of Reason produces monsters. >>> >>> "Until next time..." >>> Captain Commando >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> game_preservation mailing list >>> game_preservation at igda.org >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >>> >>> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> >> > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lowood at stanford.edu Tue Jan 20 19:05:04 2009 From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:05:04 -0800 Subject: [game_preservation] FW: Spring Cleaning the SIG+2009 ideas (Please respond!) In-Reply-To: <4974D1CF.7080605@aarmstrong.org> References: <4974a1a8.0136640a.0520.6fa7@mx.google.com> <4974ACD3.6000009@aarmstrong.org> <4974D1CF.7080605@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <497666B0.5040902@stanford.edu> Well, the criteria were discussed within the group, but not openly because there was no open forum. Recall that it was a GDC event, then it became a website after that. If we continue the project with a mode of presentation more focused on dissemination over the web and documentation, that would give us an opportunity to explain the criteria That said, the heart and soul of the enterprise is to create a list a la what the American Film Institute has done for U.S. cinema. The AFI's work has been a basis for preservation activities, as well. Henry Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Also, note that 2008 was a terrible year for films, canonically. The > "Best Oscar" will possibly look a bit bad, where as other years, every > nomination could have won it. > > The criteria, as far as I'm aware, was just a private discussion. > Since, after checking the archives, this mailing list was about dead, > I wasn't surprised to hear it wasn't more formally done or publicly > done, since it was only meant as a starting point for "these games are > important, do something!" kinda thing. Henry could explain more I > guess, hopefully I've not been wrong in my thoughts on it so far. > > Andrew > > Devin Monnens wrote: >> Well, Ocarina of Time came out in '98. If that's not canonical, I >> don't know what would be. >> >> I actually don't think we need 10 canonical games to be made each >> year. I think there are some years with film and literature where >> there really isn't that much produced that's actually worth looking >> at (and some where it is a 'good year' or 'renaissance' and there are >> more than 10). Further, if you took 10 things a year, your canon >> would begin to get very unwieldy (1000 films is already beyond the >> level where an ordinary person could know each one intimately, and >> perhaps even see each one in a lifetime. Of course, we'd have to do >> this for 100 years to get a thousand games, but by then I HOPE we'll >> have more interesting games. I also think that before we get to that >> point, there will probably be some changes to the system - for >> instance, how can we go about preserving 10 other games when we can't >> preserve any of the historical material regarding these others? Maybe >> we really do need more than ten games to start with... >> >> More importantly though, I'd like to know what the criteria were for >> selecting a game for the DGC. They're oddly not listed on the wiki, >> and none of the news articles say anything about it. >> >> -- >> The sleep of Reason produces monsters. >> >> "Until next time..." >> Captain Commando >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- Henry Lowood, Ph.D. Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; Film & Media Collections HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall Stanford University Libraries Stanford CA 94305-6004 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 22:44:04 2009 From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:44:04 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] Mobygames and KLOV In-Reply-To: References: <4975B861.8010702@aarmstrong.org> <4975F2DE.5070904@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <49769a06.05035a0a.6bb3.fffff724@mx.google.com> One thing I would like to find out (real data, I already know anecdotally) is how many collectors prefer to have pristine shrinkwrapped copies of games, and how many are willing (or even enjoy) opening the shrinkwrap for archival purposes or (heaven forbid) just to play the games. : ) I would think that question is interesting from a preservation perspective. Stuart From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Devin Monnens Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 1:14 PM To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Mobygames and KLOV I'd say some major elements would be things like 'care and feeding and organization' - that is: What is the extent of your collection? Why do you collect? Where would you like to expand your collection? How do you store your collection? (including specific storage material such as plastic envelopes and shoe boxes) What precautions do you take to ensure protection and longevity of materials? Do you create archival backups of rarer material or material in danger of bit rot? How familiar are you with standards for libraries and archives and do you think the care and storage of your collection matches those standards? How are your titles organized? Do you use a catalogue system? And - Do you have any interest in working together with libraries and archives conducting game preservation projects? Those are a few starters. Expand and critique. -Devin On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: I'll try and get a list together of what I'd want to know and post it up, but since I'm not an archivist or historian I'm not too sure what would be most useful to them :) Andrew Frank Cifaldi wrote: If someone wants to define exactly what level of information we need, I can "fill in the blanks," so to speak, with the data. I'm glad to help, I just need some structure first. On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 3:41 AM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: Hey Frank, Good starting locations for information, the main thing is we don't have anyone spare to do the research, although it is something important we should have an ear on. If anyone has the time to follow up Frank's advice for the SIG and fill out information on collectors, collector communities, etc. tell us and then go for it :) If in a month or more I have time I'll try chasing it up myself. Andrew Frank Cifaldi wrote: Hi all. I'm sorry if this is an inopportune time to barge in here, but I've been too busy with work to monitor this conversation closely. You guys are talking about meeting and keeping in contact with game collectors, right? I talked about this with Henry during a brief meeting at Stanford, I know a good deal of very serious game collectors, we're talking people with complete libraries for most major consoles. No computer collectors have ever come close to Cabrinety, but as far as dedicated game consoles, give me a game and I can probably name someone who owns it off the top of my head. Your best bet for a starting point contact is a fellow by the name of Joe Santulli. Joe is the co-founder of Digital Press (http://digitpress.com), which has undergone a few faces since its founding in the early 90s, including a "zine," a video game collector's guide, the website (including a gigantic database that is more accurate and complete but less rich than Moby's), and now a shop in New Jersey. Joe has one of the most impressive collections in the world, and is a totally affable guy who is good friends with just about all of the other major collectors. On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Devin Monnens wrote: I was reading Judd and Ken's article on Beyond the Steady State, which has a discussion about Mobygames and KLOV and how the contents of the archive are essentially metadata rather than games themselves. http://flowtv.org/?p=50 One thing I think that's worth asking is whether or not Mobygames and KLOV (and Arcade-History, for that matter!) have their own physical collections of games. Some of the people involved must be game collectors and have personal collections, but I wonder if the database itself has a physical archive somewhere... -Devin -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando _______________________________________________ game_preservation mailing list game_preservation at igda.org http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation _____ _______________________________________________ game_preservation mailing list game_preservation at igda.org http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation _______________________________________________ game_preservation mailing list game_preservation at igda.org http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation _____ _______________________________________________ game_preservation mailing list game_preservation at igda.org http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation _______________________________________________ game_preservation mailing list game_preservation at igda.org http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 23:10:35 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:10:35 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Mobygames and KLOV In-Reply-To: <49769a06.05035a0a.6bb3.fffff724@mx.google.com> References: <4975B861.8010702@aarmstrong.org> <4975F2DE.5070904@aarmstrong.org> <49769a06.05035a0a.6bb3.fffff724@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I know. As a player and a collector and a designer, I like to play what I buy. However, I also know that opening that rare copy (or a game that might become rare in the future) is going to detract from its value. As a result, I sometimes end up having to buy two copies - a play copy and a collect copy! Sometimes I'll even buy another copy of a game if I see one that is in better shape, but today because Gamestop no longer sells classic games, it is very difficult to find old games for low prices because the few stores that are left have no competition and so can charge as much as they want. Ten years ago it was good to start collecting, but today, you will have to pay more or scrounge the hell out of e-bay, flea markets, and Goodwill (though those were also strategies back then, too). I've also discovered that disc quality is also important - whether or not the disc has scratches or was resurfaced. Makes me wish I'd bought a few extra copies of rarer games like Valkyrie Profile and Persona 2 I saw instead of 'leaving them there for someone who didn't have one' (I also have a friend who wanted a copy!). A lot of my games have turned out to be resurfaced, but thankfully they are still readable - as long as the data is there and readable, I think that is ok in terms of preservation. I know sometimes it is also out of necessity for documentation that a game must be opened. For instance, if the only copy of a game is shrinkwrapped, then how can we document the instruction manual (or the art inside the manual for that matter)? In other cases, this can involve the risky and tricky process of scanning strategy guides without bending the guide (I still don't have a solution for this one!). This is always a tough decision. -Devin On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 8:44 PM, Stuart Feldhamer < stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com> wrote: > One thing I would like to find out (real data, I already know > anecdotally) is how many collectors prefer to have pristine shrinkwrapped > copies of games, and how many are willing (or even enjoy) opening the > shrinkwrap for archival purposes or (heaven forbid) just to play the games. > : ) > > > > I would think that question is interesting from a preservation perspective? > > > > Stuart > > > > *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [mailto: > game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Devin Monnens > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 20, 2009 1:14 PM > *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG > *Subject:* Re: [game_preservation] Mobygames and KLOV > > > > I'd say some major elements would be things like 'care and feeding and > organization' - that is: > > What is the extent of your collection? > Why do you collect? > Where would you like to expand your collection? > How do you store your collection? (including specific storage material such > as plastic envelopes and shoe boxes) > What precautions do you take to ensure protection and longevity of > materials? > Do you create archival backups of rarer material or material in danger of > bit rot? > How familiar are you with standards for libraries and archives and do you > think the care and storage of your collection matches those standards? > How are your titles organized? Do you use a catalogue system? > > And - Do you have any interest in working together with libraries and > archives conducting game preservation projects? > > Those are a few starters. Expand and critique. > > -Devin > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Andrew Armstrong > wrote: > > I'll try and get a list together of what I'd want to know and post it up, > but since I'm not an archivist or historian I'm not too sure what would be > most useful to them :) > > Andrew > > Frank Cifaldi wrote: > > If someone wants to define exactly what level of information we need, I can > "fill in the blanks," so to speak, with the data. I'm glad to help, I just > need some structure first. > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 3:41 AM, Andrew Armstrong > wrote: > > Hey Frank, > > Good starting locations for information, the main thing is we don't have > anyone spare to do the research, although it is something important we > should have an ear on. If anyone has the time to follow up Frank's advice > for the SIG and fill out information on collectors, collector communities, > etc. tell us and then go for it :) > > If in a month or more I have time I'll try chasing it up myself. > > Andrew > > Frank Cifaldi wrote: > > Hi all. I'm sorry if this is an inopportune time to barge in here, but I've > been too busy with work to monitor this conversation closely. > > You guys are talking about meeting and keeping in contact with game > collectors, right? I talked about this with Henry during a brief meeting at > Stanford, I know a good deal of very serious game collectors, we're talking > people with complete libraries for most major consoles. No computer > collectors have ever come close to Cabrinety, but as far as dedicated game > consoles, give me a game and I can probably name someone who owns it off the > top of my head. > > Your best bet for a starting point contact is a fellow by the name of Joe > Santulli. Joe is the co-founder of Digital Press (http://digitpress.com), > which has undergone a few faces since its founding in the early 90s, > including a "zine," a video game collector's guide, the website (including a > gigantic database that is more accurate and complete but less rich than > Moby's), and now a shop in New Jersey. Joe has one of the most impressive > collections in the world, and is a totally affable guy who is good friends > with just about all of the other major collectors. > > On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Devin Monnens > wrote: > > I was reading Judd and Ken's article on Beyond the Steady State, which has > a discussion about Mobygames and KLOV and how the contents of the archive > are essentially metadata rather than games themselves. > > http://flowtv.org/?p=50 > > One thing I think that's worth asking is whether or not Mobygames and KLOV > (and Arcade-History, for that matter!) have their own physical collections > of games. Some of the people involved must be game collectors and have > personal collections, but I wonder if the database itself has a physical > archive somewhere... > > -Devin > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > game_preservation mailing list > > game_preservation at igda.org > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > game_preservation mailing list > > game_preservation at igda.org > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 23:18:48 2009 From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 23:18:48 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] Designer of Bubble Bobble passed away? Message-ID: <4976a229.231e640a.70c6.3e56@mx.google.com> >From Armchair Arcade: Fukio "MTJ" Mitsuji, the game and character designer of Taito's Bubble Bobble, passed away last year on December 11th. http://armchairarcade.com/neo/node/2336 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 23:30:38 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:30:38 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Designer of Bubble Bobble passed away? In-Reply-To: <4976a229.231e640a.70c6.3e56@mx.google.com> References: <4976a229.231e640a.70c6.3e56@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Stuart. Andrew actually just e-mailed me this article earlier today, but he didn't send it to the entire list. Thanks for letting the rest of us know! I don't know if there is any different news than what Armchair Arcade has to say as I haven't had time to look. -Devin On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Stuart Feldhamer < stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com> wrote: > From Armchair Arcade: > > Fukio "MTJ" Mitsuji , the game and character > designer of Taito's Bubble Bobble, passed away last year on December 11th. > > http://armchairarcade.com/neo/node/2336 > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Wed Jan 21 10:17:47 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:17:47 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Designer of Bubble Bobble passed away? In-Reply-To: References: <4976a229.231e640a.70c6.3e56@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <49773C9B.2080409@aarmstrong.org> Yeah, for some reason I thought putting it on our blog was enough -_-; I forget no one reads that ;) I'll have to cross post more often. :P For some reason though there are no news articles for it according to some other blogs/forums, and it comes in just from a translated Japanese forum thread. If anyone can find a more reliable source I'll work on a memorial page for him. Andrew Devin Monnens wrote: > Thanks, Stuart. > > Andrew actually just e-mailed me this article earlier today, but he > didn't send it to the entire list. Thanks for letting the rest of us > know! I don't know if there is any different news than what Armchair > Arcade has to say as I haven't had time to look. > > -Devin > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Stuart Feldhamer > > wrote: > > From Armchair Arcade: > > Fukio "MTJ" Mitsuji , the game and > character designer of Taito's Bubble Bobble, passed away last year > on December 11th. > > http://armchairarcade.com/neo/node/2336 > > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Thu Jan 22 08:21:49 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 13:21:49 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Designer of Bubble Bobble passed away? In-Reply-To: <49773C9B.2080409@aarmstrong.org> References: <4976a229.231e640a.70c6.3e56@mx.google.com> <49773C9B.2080409@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <497872ED.8030407@aarmstrong.org> Oh, and this points out a dire need for people who know foreign languages, even if they have no interest in preservation other then playing games, since I know nothing but English. ;) I mean, I could sign up to all kinds of foreign sites, but who knows what they are saying :) Should defiantly try and get some academics and people from other countries involved. If anyone can persuade people to join the list or the IGDA with a free account, that'd be great, since we need to be able to research foreign language articles and get translations (And also take into account the factors from those places since we're technically an international organisation). Andrew Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Yeah, for some reason I thought putting it on our blog was enough -_-; > > I forget no one reads that ;) I'll have to cross post more often. :P > > For some reason though there are no news articles for it according to > some other blogs/forums, and it comes in just from a translated > Japanese forum thread. If anyone can find a more reliable source I'll > work on a memorial page for him. > > Andrew > > Devin Monnens wrote: >> Thanks, Stuart. >> >> Andrew actually just e-mailed me this article earlier today, but he >> didn't send it to the entire list. Thanks for letting the rest of us >> know! I don't know if there is any different news than what Armchair >> Arcade has to say as I haven't had time to look. >> >> -Devin >> >> On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Stuart Feldhamer >> > wrote: >> >> From Armchair Arcade: >> >> Fukio "MTJ" Mitsuji , the game and >> character designer of Taito's Bubble Bobble, passed away last >> year on December 11th. >> >> http://armchairarcade.com/neo/node/2336 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> >> >> >> >> -- >> The sleep of Reason produces monsters. >> >> "Until next time..." >> Captain Commando >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Thu Jan 22 13:11:19 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:11:19 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Personal/Oral Histories Discussion Message-ID: <4978B6C7.6030209@aarmstrong.org> Before I finish off my list of changes for the SIG's main wiki page (see: Spring Cleaning earlier. Comments still welcome!), I want to bring up the start of a discussion on recording people's personal histories. I'm thinking that a guide written to provide a list of basic information that could be collected when interviewing or researching a person (who could be anyone from a developer, to a journalist, to a producer, to admin staff, to an academic, to a historian ;) "...related to videogames"). This would help firstly start out the project, and secondly, it'd be damn useful. For instance, I might have possibly been able to discuss getting interviews, at least via. email or other mediums then face to face, with several classic developers when I've seen them at various events or places. However, not knowing what to ask, since the project wasn't started, lead to me not bothering. Therefore, let's start outlining the kinds of things needed to be done. Here's some initial thoughts: =================== Get their permission to print the information as freely available online, and if something needs to be withheld, mark it specifically as such. Gather a factsheet (asking the person or researching elsewhere): - Full name, and how they pronounce it (recorded if possible) - Gender (sometimes this isn't wholly obvious in today's world :) ) - Date of birth - Country of origin, places lived (perhaps) - (Optionally) Marital status, spouse, children, relations (at least ones related in industry) CV information - place of education, degree type - previous work (IE: the stuff on a person's CV), especially games developed and under what title. A list of generic interview questions for necessary information, or just so you can compare answers between interviews. - On work: How did you get involved in the industry. Why you left company X, or joined company Y (job changes). What inspires you at work. What resources do you use to work. - On people: What are they like. - On games: Why are they important to you personally. What do you enjoy playing in your spare time. Your most favourite games. What are you playing this week. If you can remember, what was the first videogame you played, and/or what was the first non-videogame you played. - On other things: What activities do you enjoy outside of videogames. What physical activities do you enjoy (sports, gym, outdoor things). - On other media: What do you think of other art (books, films, music, sculptures, paintings/artwork, dance, poetry, architecture, comics, opera, etc.) Need more topics - perhaps depending on the person, certainly their age and experience, but also some generic ones about the time they've spent in industry too (perhaps on gender, pay, quality of life, the business side, etc.) A photograph (or more then one) of the person if possible. Finding photographs of some developers is nigh on impossible, even if they are famous (I found a total of 1 for the Bubble Bobble creator!). They are more likely to have copies of photographs themselves. Highest quality is better. A copy of their "signing" signature, most ones who get asked for one make their own up for this, so it's nice to have a record. =================== I have a feeling that asking Jason Scott and a few people who do interviews at different historically-inclined sites would help too, and I might do this, and report it on the blog too. Here's the starting place however! So, any additional generic interview questions, example interviews to take questions or ideas from, tips for doing specific types of interviews (written interview notes done in person, email, chat client, skype, doing a proper oral history in front of a camera or microphone), and advantages/disadvantages of them. Tips for a progression from initial contact to finished historical information. Tools of the trade...and so on. Andrew From evilcowclone at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 13:41:30 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 11:41:30 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Personal/Oral Histories Discussion In-Reply-To: <4978B6C7.6030209@aarmstrong.org> References: <4978B6C7.6030209@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: I think the questions will depend on what you are researching. So you can't have a list of questions and just ask everybody those because you won't get the answers you want! Of course, there may also be some things the developer wants to talk about that nobody has asked before (What's one story you'd like to tell that nobody's asked you to tell before?). If we're talking about game history, it's probably a good idea to ask about what game development was like then versus now. History seems to be about change (change is also on the news today): how things differ today from yesterday, what things have stayed the same, what events happened, how events shaped history and how history shaped today. I guess maybe one other thing would be 'Who have you mentored?' Who has the developer taught and influenced directly? That seems like a pretty important question because it allows connections to be made through historical design. -Devin On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Before I finish off my list of changes for the SIG's main wiki page (see: > Spring Cleaning earlier. Comments still welcome!), I want to bring up the > start of a discussion on recording people's personal histories. > > I'm thinking that a guide written to provide a list of basic information > that could be collected when interviewing or researching a person (who could > be anyone from a developer, to a journalist, to a producer, to admin staff, > to an academic, to a historian ;) "...related to videogames"). > > This would help firstly start out the project, and secondly, it'd be damn > useful. > > For instance, I might have possibly been able to discuss getting > interviews, at least via. email or other mediums then face to face, with > several classic developers when I've seen them at various events or places. > However, not knowing what to ask, since the project wasn't started, lead to > me not bothering. > > Therefore, let's start outlining the kinds of things needed to be done. > Here's some initial thoughts: > > =================== > > Get their permission to print the information as freely available online, > and if something needs to be withheld, mark it specifically as such. > > Gather a factsheet (asking the person or researching elsewhere): > - Full name, and how they pronounce it (recorded if possible) > - Gender (sometimes this isn't wholly obvious in today's world :) ) > - Date of birth > - Country of origin, places lived (perhaps) > - (Optionally) Marital status, spouse, children, relations (at least ones > related in industry) > CV information > - place of education, degree type > - previous work (IE: the stuff on a person's CV), especially games > developed and under what title. > > A list of generic interview questions for necessary information, or just so > you can compare answers between interviews. > - On work: How did you get involved in the industry. Why you left company > X, or joined company Y (job changes). What inspires you at work. What > resources do you use to work. > - On people: What are they like. > - On games: Why are they important to you personally. What do you enjoy > playing in your spare time. Your most favourite games. What are you playing > this week. If you can remember, what was the first videogame you played, > and/or what was the first non-videogame you played. > - On other things: What activities do you enjoy outside of videogames. What > physical activities do you enjoy (sports, gym, outdoor things). > - On other media: What do you think of other art (books, films, music, > sculptures, paintings/artwork, dance, poetry, architecture, comics, opera, > etc.) > > Need more topics - perhaps depending on the person, certainly their age and > experience, but also some generic ones about the time they've spent in > industry too (perhaps on gender, pay, quality of life, the business side, > etc.) > > A photograph (or more then one) of the person if possible. Finding > photographs of some developers is nigh on impossible, even if they are > famous (I found a total of 1 for the Bubble Bobble creator!). They are more > likely to have copies of photographs themselves. Highest quality is better. > > A copy of their "signing" signature, most ones who get asked for one make > their own up for this, so it's nice to have a record. > > =================== > > I have a feeling that asking Jason Scott and a few people who do interviews > at different historically-inclined sites would help too, and I might do > this, and report it on the blog too. Here's the starting place however! > > So, any additional generic interview questions, example interviews to take > questions or ideas from, tips for doing specific types of interviews > (written interview notes done in person, email, chat client, skype, doing a > proper oral history in front of a camera or microphone), and > advantages/disadvantages of them. Tips for a progression from initial > contact to finished historical information. Tools of the trade...and so on. > > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Thu Jan 22 13:53:38 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:53:38 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Personal/Oral Histories Discussion In-Reply-To: References: <4978B6C7.6030209@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <4978C0B2.6050403@aarmstrong.org> This wouldn't be something you could print off and use, but knowing a baseline of what kind of things people get asked and are important to get asked is a good one, examples are even better, thus my last comment. Saying "It's good to ask what has changed" is fine, but a example of that kind of question is good too ;) (I never put any question marks behind what I put down there for the very reason they were generic examples, and easily expanded or changed!) Thanks for the input, I'll note it down when necessary. Andrew Devin Monnens wrote: > I think the questions will depend on what you are researching. So you > can't have a list of questions and just ask everybody those because > you won't get the answers you want! Of course, there may also be some > things the developer wants to talk about that nobody has asked before > (What's one story you'd like to tell that nobody's asked you to tell > before?). > > If we're talking about game history, it's probably a good idea to ask > about what game development was like then versus now. History seems to > be about change (change is also on the news today): how things differ > today from yesterday, what things have stayed the same, what events > happened, how events shaped history and how history shaped today. > > I guess maybe one other thing would be 'Who have you mentored?' Who > has the developer taught and influenced directly? That seems like a > pretty important question because it allows connections to be made > through historical design. > > -Devin > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Andrew Armstrong > > wrote: > > Before I finish off my list of changes for the SIG's main wiki > page (see: Spring Cleaning earlier. Comments still welcome!), I > want to bring up the start of a discussion on recording people's > personal histories. > > I'm thinking that a guide written to provide a list of basic > information that could be collected when interviewing or > researching a person (who could be anyone from a developer, to a > journalist, to a producer, to admin staff, to an academic, to a > historian ;) "...related to videogames"). > > This would help firstly start out the project, and secondly, it'd > be damn useful. > > For instance, I might have possibly been able to discuss getting > interviews, at least via. email or other mediums then face to > face, with several classic developers when I've seen them at > various events or places. However, not knowing what to ask, since > the project wasn't started, lead to me not bothering. > > Therefore, let's start outlining the kinds of things needed to be > done. Here's some initial thoughts: > > =================== > > Get their permission to print the information as freely available > online, and if something needs to be withheld, mark it > specifically as such. > > Gather a factsheet (asking the person or researching elsewhere): > - Full name, and how they pronounce it (recorded if possible) > - Gender (sometimes this isn't wholly obvious in today's world :) ) > - Date of birth > - Country of origin, places lived (perhaps) > - (Optionally) Marital status, spouse, children, relations (at > least ones related in industry) > CV information > - place of education, degree type > - previous work (IE: the stuff on a person's CV), especially games > developed and under what title. > > A list of generic interview questions for necessary information, > or just so you can compare answers between interviews. > - On work: How did you get involved in the industry. Why you left > company X, or joined company Y (job changes). What inspires you at > work. What resources do you use to work. > - On people: What are they like. > - On games: Why are they important to you personally. What do you > enjoy playing in your spare time. Your most favourite games. What > are you playing this week. If you can remember, what was the first > videogame you played, and/or what was the first non-videogame you > played. > - On other things: What activities do you enjoy outside of > videogames. What physical activities do you enjoy (sports, gym, > outdoor things). > - On other media: What do you think of other art (books, films, > music, sculptures, paintings/artwork, dance, poetry, architecture, > comics, opera, etc.) > > Need more topics - perhaps depending on the person, certainly > their age and experience, but also some generic ones about the > time they've spent in industry too (perhaps on gender, pay, > quality of life, the business side, etc.) > > A photograph (or more then one) of the person if possible. Finding > photographs of some developers is nigh on impossible, even if they > are famous (I found a total of 1 for the Bubble Bobble creator!). > They are more likely to have copies of photographs themselves. > Highest quality is better. > > A copy of their "signing" signature, most ones who get asked for > one make their own up for this, so it's nice to have a record. > > =================== > > I have a feeling that asking Jason Scott and a few people who do > interviews at different historically-inclined sites would help > too, and I might do this, and report it on the blog too. Here's > the starting place however! > > So, any additional generic interview questions, example interviews > to take questions or ideas from, tips for doing specific types of > interviews (written interview notes done in person, email, chat > client, skype, doing a proper oral history in front of a camera or > microphone), and advantages/disadvantages of them. Tips for a > progression from initial contact to finished historical > information. Tools of the trade...and so on. > > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 18:00:14 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 16:00:14 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Satakore Message-ID: Satakore is an archive of Sega Saturn material. They have scans, screenshots, videos, and release information, so they are an information database rather than a game storage database: http://www.satakore.com/ Overall, excellent archive to add to the resources section! -Devin -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Thu Jan 22 18:40:01 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 23:40:01 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Satakore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <497903D1.4030807@aarmstrong.org> I've added it. With my changing of stuff which I'll get on with tomorrow, I will be moving it, but currently it's in the "Projects" section. I'll probably put a lot more under "Resources" when I edit it all, making the "Projects" page a bit more focused and adding some kind of "Physical Resources" page for museums etc. too. Andrew Devin Monnens wrote: > Satakore is an archive of Sega Saturn material. They have scans, > screenshots, videos, and release information, so they are an > information database rather than a game storage database: > > http://www.satakore.com/ > > Overall, excellent archive to add to the resources section! > > -Devin > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Sat Jan 24 19:46:23 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:46:23 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Maze Wars video Message-ID: Here is a video of Maze Wars running on the Alto: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7chDIySXK2Q&NR=1 I LOL'd when he stuck the disk drive into the thing - that is the size of three stacked pizza's! The video could be a LITTLE bit better by describing the controls (particularly what happens when one player 'shoots' the other). I think this is good to demonstrate as evidence as it lets us know exactly the kinds of questions we might have about the game (certainly you can see the hands typing as they play, but we don't know exactly what they're using as controls...I'm suspecting WASD for movement). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maze_wars The book I'm currently reading (despite my supposed focus on research for another paper...) is Dealers of Lightning. About 1/3 of the way through, Hiltzik begins discussing the (in)famous "Spacewar" article in Rolling Stone. However, before that, there is an interesting comment: [On Jack Goldman visiting the PARC facility before the article was run] "The lights would all be lit and dozens of people around, even if it was nine or ten at night. Often they were playing computer games. Now, just remember, in those days computer games were not what they are today. This was a new thing. These guys were literally inventing computer games and learning how to use the machine." (154) Now there's no discussion about what kinds of games they played, and the Spacewar article doesn't even talk about them playing games at PARC (just that they wanted the Dynabook to run Spacewar): http://www.wheels.org/spacewar/stone/rolling_stone.html I think this develops an interesting question: What, if anything, were the PARC guys playing in 1972? If they were "inventing computer games", there has to be some record of this. What I'm most interested in is whether they were just making variations of Spacewar (and perhaps what kind those were). Peter Deutsch, one of the Spacewar guys, was working at PARC at the time - maybe he knows. I just find it pretty odd that out of all the games they could have made from 1962 to 1972, Spacewar (and variations) is the only one that gets mentioned (well, aside from Tennis for Two). There's a solar system lander game that gets mentioned, along with versions of Draughts, Checkers (and of course Chess), but other than that...nothing! Why IS that? (incidentally, that's another of my thesis questions - for another paper I'm not supposed to be working on yet :P) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_history_of_video_games -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lowood at stanford.edu Sun Jan 25 00:12:22 2009 From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 21:12:22 -0800 Subject: [game_preservation] Maze Wars video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <497BF4B6.7060508@stanford.edu> Devin, Devin, Devin ... YouTube!? There's an archived copy in our project's very own the Preserving Virtual Worlds collection. A little love please. :-) http://www.archive.org/details/vw_mazewar-on-alto-deposition Many thanks to Bruce Damer for saving this important documentation. If you download it, the quality is much better than the YouTube version, if I say so myself. Henry Devin Monnens wrote: > Here is a video of Maze Wars running on the Alto: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7chDIySXK2Q&NR=1 > > > I LOL'd when he stuck the disk drive into the thing - that is the size > of three stacked pizza's! > > The video could be a LITTLE bit better by describing the controls > (particularly what happens when one player 'shoots' the other). I > think this is good to demonstrate as evidence as it lets us know > exactly the kinds of questions we might have about the game (certainly > you can see the hands typing as they play, but we don't know exactly > what they're using as controls...I'm suspecting WASD for movement). > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maze_wars > > The book I'm currently reading (despite my supposed focus on research > for another paper...) is Dealers of Lightning. About 1/3 of the way > through, Hiltzik begins discussing the (in)famous "Spacewar" article > in Rolling Stone. However, before that, there is an interesting comment: > > [On Jack Goldman visiting the PARC facility before the article was run] > > "The lights would all be lit and dozens of people around, even if it > was nine or ten at night. Often they were playing computer games. Now, > just remember, in those days computer games were not what they are > today. This was a new thing. These guys were literally inventing > computer games and learning how to use the machine." (154) > > Now there's no discussion about what kinds of games they played, and > the Spacewar article doesn't even talk about them playing games at > PARC (just that they wanted the Dynabook to run Spacewar): > > http://www.wheels.org/spacewar/stone/rolling_stone.html > > I think this develops an interesting question: What, if anything, were > the PARC guys playing in 1972? If they were "inventing computer > games", there has to be some record of this. What I'm most interested > in is whether they were just making variations of Spacewar (and > perhaps what kind those were). Peter Deutsch, one of the Spacewar > guys, was working at PARC at the time - maybe he knows. I just find it > pretty odd that out of all the games they could have made from 1962 to > 1972, Spacewar (and variations) is the only one that gets mentioned > (well, aside from Tennis for Two). There's a solar system lander game > that gets mentioned, along with versions of Draughts, Checkers (and of > course Chess), but other than that...nothing! Why IS that? > (incidentally, that's another of my thesis questions - for another > paper I'm not supposed to be working on yet :P) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_history_of_video_games > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- Henry Lowood Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; Film & Media Collections HRG, Green Library 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Jan 26 11:23:30 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:23:30 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] SIG Icon - Joystick and Belljar Redone Message-ID: <497DE382.4000004@aarmstrong.org> Here we are: http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Redone+Joystick+Belljar.png.html Critique please. I'm much more happy with this one - I did a circle based top, expanded the base, although it might be better to make it a bit wider, and made everything double-thickness rimmed apart from the glass highlight which I might double, but looks good enough. Looks okay scaled down too. I'm pretty much done unless someone has a problem with it. If I don't get a response I'll use this icon, although font wise I'm still going to look around and maybe find a free "Termainl Font" which would be more suitable (the "Text adventure" feel). Andrew From lowood at stanford.edu Mon Jan 26 12:30:54 2009 From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 09:30:54 -0800 Subject: [game_preservation] SIG Icon - Joystick and Belljar Redone In-Reply-To: <497DE382.4000004@aarmstrong.org> References: <497DE382.4000004@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <497DF34E.7090709@stanford.edu> No critique, it looks good to me. Especially the smaller icon. I'll insert it on the cover of our white paper doc, just to see if people like it there, ok? Henry Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Here we are: > > http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Redone+Joystick+Belljar.png.html > > > Critique please. I'm much more happy with this one - I did a circle > based top, expanded the base, although it might be better to make it a > bit wider, and made everything double-thickness rimmed apart from the > glass highlight which I might double, but looks good enough. > > Looks okay scaled down too. I'm pretty much done unless someone has a > problem with it. If I don't get a response I'll use this icon, > although font wise I'm still going to look around and maybe find a > free "Termainl Font" which would be more suitable (the "Text > adventure" feel). > > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation -- Henry Lowood, Ph.D. Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; Film & Media Collections HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall Stanford University Libraries Stanford CA 94305-6004 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Jan 26 13:11:49 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:11:49 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] SIG Icon - Joystick and Belljar Redone In-Reply-To: <497DF34E.7090709@stanford.edu> References: <497DE382.4000004@aarmstrong.org> <497DF34E.7090709@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <497DFCE5.10703@aarmstrong.org> Sure. It originally is 64x64 (I need to probably do some work to get it to scale down to Favicon 16x16 size), and I forgot to upload the SVG file: http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Redone+Joystick+Belljar.svg.html Thanks for the lack of critique, heh. :) Andrew Henry Lowood wrote: > No critique, it looks good to me. Especially the smaller icon. I'll > insert it on the cover of our white paper doc, just to see if people > like it there, ok? > > Henry > > Andrew Armstrong wrote: >> Here we are: >> >> http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Redone+Joystick+Belljar.png.html >> >> >> Critique please. I'm much more happy with this one - I did a circle >> based top, expanded the base, although it might be better to make it >> a bit wider, and made everything double-thickness rimmed apart from >> the glass highlight which I might double, but looks good enough. >> >> Looks okay scaled down too. I'm pretty much done unless someone has a >> problem with it. If I don't get a response I'll use this icon, >> although font wise I'm still going to look around and maybe find a >> free "Termainl Font" which would be more suitable (the "Text >> adventure" feel). >> >> Andrew >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > -- > Henry Lowood, Ph.D. > Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; > Film & Media Collections > HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall > Stanford University Libraries > Stanford CA 94305-6004 > 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lowood at stanford.edu Mon Jan 26 13:49:20 2009 From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:49:20 -0800 Subject: [game_preservation] SIG Icon - Joystick and Belljar Redone In-Reply-To: <497DFCE5.10703@aarmstrong.org> References: <497DE382.4000004@aarmstrong.org> <497DF34E.7090709@stanford.edu> <497DFCE5.10703@aarmstrong.org> Message-ID: <497E05B0.3020700@stanford.edu> Well, I did say the smaller one looked better, maybe that counts as an implied criticism ... ;-) Henry Andrew Armstrong wrote: > Sure. It originally is 64x64 (I need to probably do some work to get > it to scale down to Favicon 16x16 size), and I forgot to upload the > SVG file: > > http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Redone+Joystick+Belljar.svg.html > > Thanks for the lack of critique, heh. :) > > Andrew > > Henry Lowood wrote: >> No critique, it looks good to me. Especially the smaller icon. I'll >> insert it on the cover of our white paper doc, just to see if people >> like it there, ok? >> >> Henry >> >> Andrew Armstrong wrote: >>> Here we are: >>> >>> http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Redone+Joystick+Belljar.png.html >>> >>> >>> Critique please. I'm much more happy with this one - I did a circle >>> based top, expanded the base, although it might be better to make it >>> a bit wider, and made everything double-thickness rimmed apart from >>> the glass highlight which I might double, but looks good enough. >>> >>> Looks okay scaled down too. I'm pretty much done unless someone has >>> a problem with it. If I don't get a response I'll use this icon, >>> although font wise I'm still going to look around and maybe find a >>> free "Termainl Font" which would be more suitable (the "Text >>> adventure" feel). >>> >>> Andrew >>> _______________________________________________ >>> game_preservation mailing list >>> game_preservation at igda.org >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> >> -- >> Henry Lowood, Ph.D. >> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; >> Film & Media Collections >> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall >> Stanford University Libraries >> Stanford CA 94305-6004 >> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -- Henry Lowood, Ph.D. Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; Film & Media Collections HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall Stanford University Libraries Stanford CA 94305-6004 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Jan 26 16:20:46 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:20:46 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] IGDA Wiki Updated Message-ID: <497E292E.7080401@aarmstrong.org> I've updated the wiki with my spring cleaning as I suggested before, more or less: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG I did also update the resources and projects pages recently as I noted before. Currently they're staying as they are however. I have also added a SIG history page: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/SIG_History For this, if Melanie and Julia could find out when they joined the "main group", ie; people listed on our main page who have jobs in the SIG, it'd be welcome - as well as any other info, links, reports, notes, or anything on the SIG. Anyone who knows about Kireons reign as chairman would be welcome too, the mailing list is pretty much dead there, as well as what GDC sessions there were on preservation from 2004 to 2006. Photographs of the main members (Devin, Julia and Melanie) would be nice to add too. If I have missed out anyone on the history side who has contributed a wealth of knowledge, discussion, or project work point it out to me and I'll be happy to add them (with picture I hope :) ). I haven't got into editing the Oral Histories or Collectors pages yet. These need more discussion on the mailing list first, and I will be posting specific topics for these after this email! If I don't get much response for them then I will not change their status. I simply can't do them myself and *I need someone to step up and volunteer to take one or both of them*. Yes, outreach to people here! I will slowly work on these projects but I don't foresee doing much on them in the coming year, since I lack basic knowledge for collectors, and lack any kind of worldwide team who can do interviews for oral histories. Thanks for all the feedback before I did these changes though! Brought up some good issues, we can deal with in new threads. Andrew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Jan 26 16:23:55 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:23:55 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Project Discussion: Oral Histories Message-ID: <497E29EB.8020600@aarmstrong.org> This is coming on from our previous discussion over spring cleaning the SIG. *Oral Histories* Status: /On Hold/ Currently lead by: /No one. / Short description: /Interviews with industry people related to their past works. Brought up at GDC 2008, but currently has no assigned project lead./ Concerns raised previously: - Aims of the histories, contents, etc. - What to ask (I brought this up before) - Who can do them Someone to work on this or start organising a team of people would be good. Logistically this is the hardest project to manage, and technically we have no resources to fund it at all, meaning it requires heavy volunteer work. People suggesting information, examples of existing histories done, ways to get this going, and so forth are welcome. Basically bring whatever you like to the table, it's an open discussion. Andrew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Jan 26 16:28:19 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:28:19 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Project Discussion: Digital Game Canon Message-ID: <497E2AF3.4050803@aarmstrong.org> This is coming on from our previous discussion over spring cleaning the SIG. *Digital Game Canon* http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/Digital_Game_Canon Status: /On Hold/ Currently lead by: Henry Lowood. Short description: /Started for a GDC 2007 session. This project recognizes the importance of digital game culture. The Canon provides a starting-point for the difficult task of preserving its history. This project will need to be restarted in some capacity in the future./ Concerns raised previously: - Basis for choosing 10 games a year. - How to get it restarted without a GDC session - Who are the people choosing the games, and the criteria they choose them From Henry, running the project: "Well, the criteria were discussed within the group, but not openly because there was no open forum. Recall that it was a GDC event, then it became a website after that. If we continue the project with a mode of presentation more focused on dissemination over the web and documentation, that would give us an opportunity to explain the criteria That said, the heart and soul of the enterprise is to create a list a la what the American Film Institute has done for U.S. cinema. The AFI's work has been a basis for preservation activities, as well." You can look back to some of the older emails on some of the points raised, but I'd prefer if they were raised again by those who are concerned so we can get discussing them again a bit more on topic. I do have in mind a new website to build in my spare time (which might take a while) to host information and metadata on the different games we add, which is doable since we'll have a small list, and soon will have more collections for different videogame material on the IA. Bring whatever you can to the discussion, although Henry leads the project so it's in his ballpark where it goes from here. Andrew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Mon Jan 26 16:32:21 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:32:21 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Project Discussion: Collectors Information Message-ID: <497E2BE5.3090400@aarmstrong.org> This is coming on from our previous discussion over spring cleaning the SIG. *Collectors Information* http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/Collectors Status: /On Hold/ Currently lead by: /No one. / Short description: /A set of resource pages on the area of videogame collectors. When complete, will hold information on the reasons behind it, the communities that are based on it, and who gets involved in the work. This will be aimed at people interested in the area for whatever reason (such as tracking information not held in public archives or online) rather then for collectors themselves./ Concerns raised previously: - What information should it be - Who should be contacted to get the information - Who is the information aimed at This needs someone to run it. Someone who basically can collect the information and update the wiki with it. There are plenty of reasons I can't do it very well, the main one being is I am not a collector and barely venture into the area much. I am willing to do some of the legwork but a collector who knows where to find information, who to contact and interview, what information would be relevant to an archivist, historian or developer, and so on is required. If you want to take lead on this, it shouldn't be much work - I'm looking for more depth then Wikipedia, but less then a book on the subject. Some "rough guide to videogame collectors and their hobby" would suffice. I know some information was already raised, and if I am left with doing this I'll follow some of it up and possibly get someone not on the SIG list to do this project partially (at least providing the information to me). Andrew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evilcowclone at gmail.com Mon Jan 26 21:17:29 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:17:29 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] SIG Icon - Joystick and Belljar Redone In-Reply-To: <497E05B0.3020700@stanford.edu> References: <497DE382.4000004@aarmstrong.org> <497DF34E.7090709@stanford.edu> <497DFCE5.10703@aarmstrong.org> <497E05B0.3020700@stanford.edu> Message-ID: The small one looks funny. The gray of the joystick is too thick and jaggy. Those things can happen when an object that looks perfectly fine gets scaled - maybe Andrew should do it inside the vector program. And what's with that black smudge at the tip of the joystick handle? Did your mouse get caught in it? But yeah, big one looks good. Just when you turn it small... On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Henry Lowood wrote: > Well, I did say the smaller one looked better, maybe that counts as an > implied criticism ... ;-) > > Henry > > Andrew Armstrong wrote: > > Sure. It originally is 64x64 (I need to probably do some work to get it to > scale down to Favicon 16x16 size), and I forgot to upload the SVG file: > > > http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Redone+Joystick+Belljar.svg.html > > Thanks for the lack of critique, heh. :) > > Andrew > > Henry Lowood wrote: > > No critique, it looks good to me. Especially the smaller icon. I'll > insert it on the cover of our white paper doc, just to see if people like it > there, ok? > > Henry > > Andrew Armstrong wrote: > > Here we are: > > > http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Redone+Joystick+Belljar.png.html > > Critique please. I'm much more happy with this one - I did a circle based > top, expanded the base, although it might be better to make it a bit wider, > and made everything double-thickness rimmed apart from the glass highlight > which I might double, but looks good enough. > > Looks okay scaled down too. I'm pretty much done unless someone has a > problem with it. If I don't get a response I'll use this icon, although font > wise I'm still going to look around and maybe find a free "Termainl Font" > which would be more suitable (the "Text adventure" feel). > > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > -- > Henry Lowood, Ph.D. > Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; > Film & Media Collections > HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall > Stanford University Libraries > Stanford CA 94305-6004 > 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > -- > Henry Lowood, Ph.D. > Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; > Film & Media Collections > HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall > Stanford University Libraries > Stanford CA 94305-6004 > 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Tue Jan 27 06:40:17 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 11:40:17 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] SIG Icon - Joystick and Belljar Redone In-Reply-To: References: <497DE382.4000004@aarmstrong.org> <497DF34E.7090709@stanford.edu> <497DFCE5.10703@aarmstrong.org> <497E05B0.3020700@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <497EF2A1.90800@aarmstrong.org> That is Gallery playing up. It converts it to a JPG file with random results. Here is the actual SVG: http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/d/11536-1/Redone+Joystick+Belljar.svg I can make the grey shine a bit bigger. Anything else? Andrew Devin Monnens wrote: > The small one looks funny. The gray of the joystick is too thick and > jaggy. Those things can happen when an object that looks perfectly > fine gets scaled - maybe Andrew should do it inside the vector > program. And what's with that black smudge at the tip of the joystick > handle? Did your mouse get caught in it? > > But yeah, big one looks good. Just when you turn it small... > > On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Henry Lowood > wrote: > > Well, I did say the smaller one looked better, maybe that counts > as an implied criticism ... ;-) > > Henry > > Andrew Armstrong wrote: >> Sure. It originally is 64x64 (I need to probably do some work to >> get it to scale down to Favicon 16x16 size), and I forgot to >> upload the SVG file: >> >> http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Redone+Joystick+Belljar.svg.html >> >> Thanks for the lack of critique, heh. :) >> >> Andrew >> >> Henry Lowood wrote: >>> No critique, it looks good to me. Especially the smaller icon. >>> I'll insert it on the cover of our white paper doc, just to see >>> if people like it there, ok? >>> >>> Henry >>> >>> Andrew Armstrong wrote: >>>> Here we are: >>>> >>>> http://aarmstrong.org/gallery/v/projects/preslogos/Redone+Joystick+Belljar.png.html >>>> >>>> >>>> Critique please. I'm much more happy with this one - I did a >>>> circle based top, expanded the base, although it might be >>>> better to make it a bit wider, and made everything >>>> double-thickness rimmed apart from the glass highlight which I >>>> might double, but looks good enough. >>>> >>>> Looks okay scaled down too. I'm pretty much done unless someone >>>> has a problem with it. If I don't get a response I'll use this >>>> icon, although font wise I'm still going to look around and >>>> maybe find a free "Termainl Font" which would be more suitable >>>> (the "Text adventure" feel). >>>> >>>> Andrew >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> game_preservation mailing list >>>> game_preservation at igda.org >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >>> >>> -- >>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D. >>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; >>> Film & Media Collections >>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall >>> Stanford University Libraries >>> Stanford CA 94305-6004 >>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu ; >>> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> game_preservation mailing list >>> game_preservation at igda.org >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > -- > Henry Lowood, Ph.D. > Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections; > Film & Media Collections > HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall > Stanford University Libraries > Stanford CA 94305-6004 > 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu ; > http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > > -- > The sleep of Reason produces monsters. > > "Until next time..." > Captain Commando > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Tue Jan 27 13:49:19 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:49:19 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Videogame preservation/history events 2009 Message-ID: <497F572F.3050502@aarmstrong.org> So, a call out to everyone who knows something going on in 2009. We might not have a calendar yet, but I'm still interested in posting news (and putting it on any new calendar we get with the new IGDA site that eventually will go up). Inspired by seeing this event that is in March in the UK: http://www.byte-back.info/ We also have the IGDA Game Preservation SIG roundtable at GDC in March. Sadly, this is 1 hour of preservation material for the entire event, so don't get a pass just to come to this for history stuff. I'll be there though *waves* and Henry is running it. *So, any other events people know of going on this year?* I'm also on the look out for "reporters", people who can get pictures, and do a report on the events, since usually they are acosted by various videogame luminaries, collectors, historians and so forth, all of which is great. This would be for our website. I'll be doing it at GDC, and I might pop to the Byte Back event if I have the time and money - and I also will be contacting the event people to see if they take their own videos, which would be useful for the IA collection. Thanks! Andrew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Thu Jan 29 19:12:53 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 00:12:53 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Changing the Projects page - thoughts/ideas needed Message-ID: <49824605.7010003@aarmstrong.org> Hey all. I am still looking for input on the 3 project discussions, but in any case, I need to clean up the wiki pages some more - specifically today, the Projects page: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/Projects - this is part of my "Spring cleaning", just a continuation of it. This page is aimed entirely at "Every single website link, physical place or project which isn't a specific resource". Urg, yeah, a lot of stuff! Everything in fact :/ Therefore, it's an disorganised mess. It started out reasonably well, but, well, that was a incomplete set of links in the first place. So, possibilities: - Splitting up "proper museums and archives", metadata sites, "Retro sites" (containing articles), fan sites ("we love console XXX") and blogs (usually personal ones). I'd add in all the "real museums" I've added on the contributions page, which yes, I've mainly left out so far. - Keep "Videogame-Related Media" separate, maybe on another page - simply put, some sites/items would overlap or bleed into this section. Possibly instead make it "Digitally Downloadable Resources" or something... thoughts? - Adding new sections specifically for collectors / retro shops (who repair old consoles, sell old games) - "Related items" expanded - could use a list of industry organisations, and related fields; computer hardware/software history sites and repositories, videogame magazine sites...any others? - Add new sections for general videogame related sites - business, news, developer categories. Archive.org links as appropriate. New page somewhere for videogame history/retro events. This would contribute to the previous discussion I raised about Back-Bytes - any more in 2009? I need ideas on what would make this easy for people to use. Some other possibilities (which will cause me some major work): - A better formatted list - table form or with outlines, with a bigger description and maybe page thumbnail, and perhaps tags/keywords, and "systems covered" (or "area covered"). - Multiple pages for each type of link. Things can be in more then one place. - Individual pages dedicated to that resource which can hold detailed information on the site/project/item - which are linked to from the main links page. - Addition of archive.org wayback machine links to better ease the cases where sites disappear. When I add this, I'd go and input every URL into the wayback machine too (although this takes a few months to do anything it is better then nothing, since we sadly don't have the funding to use the subscription based Archive-It :( ). Basically, I realise not many people likely use the page as it is - and with my recent additions it's been made pretty unreadable. Please, I'd love to know what can make it better at least in the short term. There is another option, that I build the Digital Game Canon site I have in mind, which would have a links section dedicated to making it easy to link together things with tags, keywords, categories, searches (as well as adding specific articles) and provide a good way to get citations and info about the sites. This will in the long run save me a ton of time, and I don't think conflict with any existing website since I've not seen any listing this information. However the initial time to build it will be "a while" so it's more long term. Andrew From melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au Thu Jan 29 20:18:37 2009 From: melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au (Melanie Swalwell) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:48:37 +1030 Subject: [game_preservation] Welcome to new members Message-ID: <4982556D.6060307@flinders.edu.au> Hi all, We've had a few new subscribers joining the list over the last little while. I'm sure you'll join with me in welcoming them! Please take a moment to introduce yourselves and tell us about your projects and interests. It helps others to know who is on the list, and what is happening in the worlds of game preservation. regards, Melanie (moderator) -- Dr Melanie Swalwell Senior Lecturer, Screen and Media & Course Coordinator, B. Media Flinders University GPO Box 2100 Adelaide SA 5001 125B Humanities Bldg Ph: +61 8 8201 2619 Fax: +61 8 8201 3635 melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au From edeitsch at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 12:38:48 2009 From: edeitsch at gmail.com (Eve Deitsch) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:38:48 -0800 Subject: [game_preservation] Welcome to new members Message-ID: <96a194580901300938k2a114873jfe2104a280f87f88@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, I guess I should pop out of lurk mode and introduce myself. My name is Eve Deitsch, I am the Localization Specialist at Pokemon USA in Bellevue, WA. I'm on a few lists within the IGDA (localization, women, writers, and preservation) because of my interests and position in the gaming industry. I joined this list after cleaning up my storage room and moving my 5th box of Commodore paraphernalia. I've been a bit of a packrat about my games, and I won't get rid of anything. The largest section of my collection is the Commodore (Vic 20, 64, and 128) selection, but I also have most of the major consoles from the NES forward. As I was sorting through old software boxes, manuals, magazines, programming books, I thought I should should see if anyone was archiving information about these old games, and that led me to find the Preservation SIG within the IGDA. I'd be interested in meeting with anyone else in the area to talk games or contribute to preservation efforts. I'm not throwing anything in my collection away, but I don't want it to just sit there forever gathering dust, either. I'd be happy to help. Eve Deitsch ----------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:48:37 +1030 From: Melanie Swalwell Subject: [game_preservation] Welcome to new members To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG Message-ID: <4982556D.6060307 at flinders.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi all, We've had a few new subscribers joining the list over the last little while. I'm sure you'll join with me in welcoming them! Please take a moment to introduce yourselves and tell us about your projects and interests. It helps others to know who is on the list, and what is happening in the worlds of game preservation. regards, Melanie (moderator) -- Dr Melanie Swalwell Senior Lecturer, Screen and Media & Course Coordinator, B. Media Flinders University GPO Box 2100 Adelaide SA 5001 125B Humanities Bldg Ph: +61 8 8201 2619 Fax: +61 8 8201 3635 melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From if at caps-project.org Fri Jan 30 15:09:51 2009 From: if at caps-project.org (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXN0duFuIEbhYmnhbg==?=) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 20:09:51 -0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Welcome to new members References: <96a194580901300938k2a114873jfe2104a280f87f88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0c4201c98316$b6cd5940$0200a8c0@tg.scee.sony.co.uk> Hi Eve, Please get in contact, we'd be interested in any games that you have on original disks practically for any platform: www.softpres.org Thanks, Istvan ----- Original Message ----- From: Eve Deitsch To: game_preservation at igda.org Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 5:38 PM Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Welcome to new members Hello all, I guess I should pop out of lurk mode and introduce myself. My name is Eve Deitsch, I am the Localization Specialist at Pokemon USA in Bellevue, WA. I'm on a few lists within the IGDA (localization, women, writers, and preservation) because of my interests and position in the gaming industry. I joined this list after cleaning up my storage room and moving my 5th box of Commodore paraphernalia. I've been a bit of a packrat about my games, and I won't get rid of anything. The largest section of my collection is the Commodore (Vic 20, 64, and 128) selection, but I also have most of the major consoles from the NES forward. As I was sorting through old software boxes, manuals, magazines, programming books, I thought I should should see if anyone was archiving information about these old games, and that led me to find the Preservation SIG within the IGDA. I'd be interested in meeting with anyone else in the area to talk games or contribute to preservation efforts. I'm not throwing anything in my collection away, but I don't want it to just sit there forever gathering dust, either. I'd be happy to help. Eve Deitsch ----------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:48:37 +1030 From: Melanie Swalwell Subject: [game_preservation] Welcome to new members To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG Message-ID: <4982556D.6060307 at flinders.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi all, We've had a few new subscribers joining the list over the last little while. I'm sure you'll join with me in welcoming them! Please take a moment to introduce yourselves and tell us about your projects and interests. It helps others to know who is on the list, and what is happening in the worlds of game preservation. regards, Melanie (moderator) -- Dr Melanie Swalwell Senior Lecturer, Screen and Media & Course Coordinator, B. Media Flinders University GPO Box 2100 Adelaide SA 5001 125B Humanities Bldg Ph: +61 8 8201 2619 Fax: +61 8 8201 3635 melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ game_preservation mailing list game_preservation at igda.org http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at aarmstrong.org Fri Jan 30 15:19:16 2009 From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 20:19:16 +0000 Subject: [game_preservation] Welcome to new members In-Reply-To: <96a194580901300938k2a114873jfe2104a280f87f88@mail.gmail.com> References: <96a194580901300938k2a114873jfe2104a280f87f88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <498360C4.1030304@aarmstrong.org> If you ever feel like reporting on what is going on locally (events, and so on), feel free to email me. The SIG really needs some more "reporters", at the moment I only report on what I do, and 2nd party news from various history blogs/sites. :) Nice to see you sign up too! :) To everyone else who's new (and those who are not ;) ), I will bump the older project discussions which have had no input, since these are something that might be worth working on or putting forward thoughts on, sometime next week. Andrew Eve Deitsch wrote: > Hello all, > I guess I should pop out of lurk mode and introduce myself. > My name is Eve Deitsch, I am the Localization Specialist at Pokemon > USA in Bellevue, WA. I'm on a few lists within the IGDA > (localization, women, writers, and preservation) because of my > interests and position in the gaming industry. > I joined this list after cleaning up my storage room and moving my 5th > box of Commodore paraphernalia. I've been a bit of a packrat about my > games, and I won't get rid of anything. The largest section of my > collection is the Commodore (Vic 20, 64, and 128) selection, but I > also have most of the major consoles from the NES forward. As I was > sorting through old software boxes, manuals, magazines, programming > books, I thought I should should see if anyone was archiving > information about these old games, and that led me to find the > Preservation SIG within the IGDA. > I'd be interested in meeting with anyone else in the area to talk > games or contribute to preservation efforts. I'm not throwing > anything in my collection away, but I don't want it to just sit there > forever gathering dust, either. I'd be happy to help. > Eve Deitsch > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:48:37 +1030 > From: Melanie Swalwell > > Subject: [game_preservation] Welcome to new members > To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG > > Message-ID: <4982556D.6060307 at flinders.edu.au > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hi all, > > We've had a few new subscribers joining the list over the last little > while. I'm sure you'll join with me in welcoming them! > > Please take a moment to introduce yourselves and tell us about your > projects and interests. It helps others to know who is on the list, > and what is happening in the worlds of game preservation. > > regards, > > Melanie (moderator) > > -- > Dr Melanie Swalwell > Senior Lecturer, Screen and Media > & Course Coordinator, B. Media > Flinders University > GPO Box 2100 > Adelaide SA 5001 > > 125B Humanities Bldg > > Ph: +61 8 8201 2619 > Fax: +61 8 8201 3635 > > melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From donahrm at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 15:20:08 2009 From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel Donahue) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:20:08 -0500 Subject: [game_preservation] Welcome to new members In-Reply-To: <4982556D.6060307@flinders.edu.au> References: <4982556D.6060307@flinders.edu.au> Message-ID: Hi there, I discovered this list when Henry forwarded my post about the looming DCMA decisions, and couldn't resist joining. Currently I'm a grad assistant for the Maryland Institute for Technology in the Humanities, working on the Preserving Virtual Worlds Project (http://pvw.illinois.edu/pvw/). I also with for the US National Archives' Electronic Records Archives program doing various communication-related tasks and being a general research monkey. Next fall I'm starting the PhD program at the University of Maryland, with a focus (at least initially!) on the preservation of software, including games. I'm currently developing a survey for the gaming industry and gaming community to learn about the archives/records management/preservation practices of each, and would love it if people on the list would be willing to give some feedback! Cheers, Rachel -- Rachel Donahue Graduate Assistant Maryland Institute for Technology in the Humanities University of Maryland, College Park College Park, MD On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Melanie Swalwell < melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au> wrote: > Hi all, > > We've had a few new subscribers joining the list over the last little > while. I'm sure you'll join with me in welcoming them! > > Please take a moment to introduce yourselves and tell us about your > projects and interests. It helps others to know who is on the list, > and what is happening in the worlds of game preservation. > > regards, > > Melanie (moderator) > > -- > Dr Melanie Swalwell > Senior Lecturer, Screen and Media > & Course Coordinator, B. Media > Flinders University > GPO Box 2100 > Adelaide SA 5001 > > 125B Humanities Bldg > > Ph: +61 8 8201 2619 > Fax: +61 8 8201 3635 > > melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saccharinmetric at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 22:55:25 2009 From: saccharinmetric at gmail.com (Christian McCrea) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 14:55:25 +1100 Subject: [game_preservation] Welcome to new members In-Reply-To: References: <4982556D.6060307@flinders.edu.au> Message-ID: Hi everybody, My name is Christian McCrea, I am a recent addition too, I'm a Lecturer at Swinburne University of Technology in Melbourne, Australia, as part of the Games and Interactivity group there. I have a research/historical bent, especially interested in arcades past and present, though more generally game history (and its preservation) are close to my heart. I recently came across some treasured objects from childhood; four Game and Watch games including the somewhat unusual CrabGrab. One of them, Parachute, has not been touched for over 20 years, and the original (rusting) battery, still has some life in it. I used to flip the batteries upside down when I wasn't using them. I'm either wrong about it being in a box for that time, or these things were built to last. Gunpey Yokoi's maxim of 'lateral thinking on withered technology' certainly trumps, say, the PC version of Gears of War, which had DRM that stopped working today, just eight months after release. This seems like a great little list to be a part of, I hope I can contribute something to one of the projects, or at least the discussions. Thanks, -Christian McCrea On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 7:20 AM, Rachel Donahue wrote: > Hi there, > > I discovered this list when Henry forwarded my post about the looming DCMA > decisions, and couldn't resist joining. Currently I'm a grad assistant for > the Maryland Institute for Technology in the Humanities, working on the > Preserving Virtual Worlds Project (http://pvw.illinois.edu/pvw/). I also > with for the US National Archives' Electronic Records Archives program doing > various communication-related tasks and being a general research monkey. > Next fall I'm starting the PhD program at the University of Maryland, with a > focus (at least initially!) on the preservation of software, including > games. I'm currently developing a survey for the gaming industry and gaming > community to learn about the archives/records management/preservation > practices of each, and would love it if people on the list would be willing > to give some feedback! > > Cheers, > Rachel > > -- > Rachel Donahue > Graduate Assistant > Maryland Institute for Technology in the Humanities > University of Maryland, College Park > College Park, MD > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Melanie Swalwell > wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> We've had a few new subscribers joining the list over the last little >> while. I'm sure you'll join with me in welcoming them! >> >> Please take a moment to introduce yourselves and tell us about your >> projects and interests. It helps others to know who is on the list, >> and what is happening in the worlds of game preservation. >> >> regards, >> >> Melanie (moderator) >> >> -- >> Dr Melanie Swalwell >> Senior Lecturer, Screen and Media >> & Course Coordinator, B. Media >> Flinders University >> GPO Box 2100 >> Adelaide SA 5001 >> >> 125B Humanities Bldg >> >> Ph: +61 8 8201 2619 >> Fax: +61 8 8201 3635 >> >> melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au >> >> _______________________________________________ >> game_preservation mailing list >> game_preservation at igda.org >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > game_preservation mailing list > game_preservation at igda.org > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation > > From evilcowclone at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 13:22:06 2009 From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 11:22:06 -0700 Subject: [game_preservation] Erik S. Dyke Message-ID: I found this on the www.playstationmuseum.com front page news. * A Worthwhile Cause.* On November 10, 2008 Erick S. Dyke, 41, passed away after a courageous battle with cancer. Erick was the president and co-founder of Orlando, Florida based video game company n-Space, Inc. Over n-Space's 14-year history Erick served as its president, and together with his partner Dan O'Leary created numerous hit video game titles, including Call of Duty (DS), Rugrats (PS and PS2), Star Wars (DS), and Duke Nukem series (PS1). Erick was also deeply involved in the creation and marketing of the company's original games, including Tigershark(PS1) and Geist (Gamecube). n-Space's momentum and success will continue under Mr. O'Leary's leadership. Both within the company he loved and the video game industry as a whole, Erick was an inspiration to all those with whom he worked and touched. He will be remembered for his courage, vision, creativity, and love of life. Erick's wife Michelle, parents Michael and Greta Dyke, and his brother Matthew survive him. A permanent scholarship fund has been created in his memory at Erick's alma mater, Michigan Technological University, located in Houghton, Michigan. For more information, please visit www.mtf.mtu.edu/dykescholarship. Erick also requested people visit the websites www.donoharm.us and www.one.org. Please consider contributing to the Erick Dyke Scholarship Fund and keep Erick's family in your prayers. -- The sleep of Reason produces monsters. "Until next time..." Captain Commando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: