From Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk  Wed Jul  1 04:39:03 2009
From: Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk (Dan Pinchbeck)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 09:39:03 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] SIG paper for DiGRA
Message-ID: <4A4B2EB7020000B5000926ED@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>

Hi all,

As it is, it's not much more than a re-jig of existing material, which may be fine, with an extra tack-on at the end to pick specifically up the academic/industry/IGDA relationship. I'm working on it again hopefully tomorrow, so will resend then, but anything in the interim would be useful

dan

Dr Dan Pinchbeck

Advanced Games Research Group
School of Creative Technologies
University of Portsmouth, UK

www.thechineseroom.co.uk
www.keep.port.ac.uk
>>> Devin Monnens <dmonnens at gmail.com> 01/07/09 4:19 AM >>>
Has anyone taken a look at this yet? I kinda spaced it, and just now
discovered it on my desktop. I can read this version or wait for the next
edit.

Though honestly it doesn't look any different from the last time I saw it. I
would recommend we get somebody who has more time on their hands to look at
typesetting to make it not look so crappy :)

Um yeah...the typesetting was kind of my fault.

-Devin Monnens

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

> Okay, I'm finally back onto my email, urg, I'll batter my host more harshly
> when they didn't get it working after their promised 2 days so I lost a
> weeks worth of email, bah.
>
> I'll be able to come down, I've booked holiday time for that week, I just
> need to know how to book a place at the event and accommodation.
>
> I've not got a chance today or tomorrow to read this structural draft - I
> also note you didn't have any changes enabled, so it's hard to see what's
> changed at a glance, sorry - I'll try and look later this weekend.
>
> As for a title, I don't know, it depends what you want the paper to be
> edited to be.
>
> Andrew
>
>
> Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
>
>> hi all,
>>
>> a very (very) initial structural draft of the paper for DiGRA is uploaded
>> here:
>>
>> www.thechineseroom.co.uk/IGDASIGpaper.doc
>>
>> If anyone has the chance to glance over it and give me a sense of whether
>> I'm heading the right direction with this, make comments, changes, etc, I'd
>> be really grateful. Like I said, it's at a phenomenally early point
>> (deadline is 1st August) so don't expect much!
>>
>> I also need to confirm for the programme a final title for the paper and
>> confirm the list of authors - as I wasn't involved in the white paper, can
>> someone just triple-check that for me and send a list/title?
>>
>> Finally, as soon as I have the exact date/time for the game preservation
>> panel I'll send it through - but this paper will need a presenter. I can
>> 'arrange' that if need be, but it would obviously be great to have someone
>> from the SIG there (Andrew, you're just up the road... and I may be able to
>> find some budget to help out with registration, etc?) Any thoughts there
>> would also be great,
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> PS- thanks Melanie for the heads-up - hope this is a better way of doing
>> things! :)
>>
>> Dr Dan Pinchbeck
>>
>> Advanced Games Research Group
>> School of Creative Technologies
>> University of Portsmouth, UK
>>
>> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
>> www.keep.port.ac.uk
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>



-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.


From Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk  Wed Jul  1 04:43:28 2009
From: Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk (Dan Pinchbeck)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 09:43:28 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] SIG paper for DiGRA
Message-ID: <4A4B2FC0020000B5000926F2@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>

Hiya,

Everything goes through the conference website:

http://digra2009.newport.ac.uk

The draft programme is through and the session is provionally slotted in Thursday 3rd in the morning

dan

Dr Dan Pinchbeck

Advanced Games Research Group
School of Creative Technologies
University of Portsmouth, UK

www.thechineseroom.co.uk
www.keep.port.ac.uk
>>> Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org> 26/06/09 12:26 AM >>>
Okay, I'm finally back onto my email, urg, I'll batter my host more 
harshly when they didn't get it working after their promised 2 days so I 
lost a weeks worth of email, bah.

I'll be able to come down, I've booked holiday time for that week, I 
just need to know how to book a place at the event and accommodation.

I've not got a chance today or tomorrow to read this structural draft - 
I also note you didn't have any changes enabled, so it's hard to see 
what's changed at a glance, sorry - I'll try and look later this weekend.

As for a title, I don't know, it depends what you want the paper to be 
edited to be.

Andrew

Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
> hi all,
>
> a very (very) initial structural draft of the paper for DiGRA is uploaded here:
>
> www.thechineseroom.co.uk/IGDASIGpaper.doc
>
> If anyone has the chance to glance over it and give me a sense of whether I'm heading the right direction with this, make comments, changes, etc, I'd be really grateful. Like I said, it's at a phenomenally early point (deadline is 1st August) so don't expect much!
>
> I also need to confirm for the programme a final title for the paper and confirm the list of authors - as I wasn't involved in the white paper, can someone just triple-check that for me and send a list/title?
>
> Finally, as soon as I have the exact date/time for the game preservation panel I'll send it through - but this paper will need a presenter. I can 'arrange' that if need be, but it would obviously be great to have someone from the SIG there (Andrew, you're just up the road... and I may be able to find some budget to help out with registration, etc?) Any thoughts there would also be great,
>
> Thanks
>
> Dan
>
> PS- thanks Melanie for the heads-up - hope this is a better way of doing things! :)
>
> Dr Dan Pinchbeck
>
> Advanced Games Research Group
> School of Creative Technologies
> University of Portsmouth, UK
>
> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
> www.keep.port.ac.uk
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>   
_______________________________________________
game_preservation mailing list
game_preservation at igda.org
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation


From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Wed Jul  1 11:21:14 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:21:14 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] SIG paper for DiGRA
In-Reply-To: <4A4B2FC0020000B5000926F2@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
References: <4A4B2FC0020000B5000926F2@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <4A4B7EEA.60006@aarmstrong.org>

Looks like a pretty good programme, although the topics of some of the 
items need some real explanation, so I hope the program isn't just 
resigned to a word document.

I've paid up for it now, quite a hefty bit of cash but should be good ;) 
hopefully won't be too hot that time of year either, I'm sweltering 
right now.

I'll give the paper a once over at some point when I have some time. :)

Andrew

Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
> Hiya,
>
> Everything goes through the conference website:
>
> http://digra2009.newport.ac.uk
>
> The draft programme is through and the session is provionally slotted in Thursday 3rd in the morning
>
> dan
>
> Dr Dan Pinchbeck
>
> Advanced Games Research Group
> School of Creative Technologies
> University of Portsmouth, UK
>
> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
> www.keep.port.ac.uk
>   
>>>> Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org> 26/06/09 12:26 AM >>>
>>>>         
> Okay, I'm finally back onto my email, urg, I'll batter my host more 
> harshly when they didn't get it working after their promised 2 days so I 
> lost a weeks worth of email, bah.
>
> I'll be able to come down, I've booked holiday time for that week, I 
> just need to know how to book a place at the event and accommodation.
>
> I've not got a chance today or tomorrow to read this structural draft - 
> I also note you didn't have any changes enabled, so it's hard to see 
> what's changed at a glance, sorry - I'll try and look later this weekend.
>
> As for a title, I don't know, it depends what you want the paper to be 
> edited to be.
>
> Andrew
>
> Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
>   
>> hi all,
>>
>> a very (very) initial structural draft of the paper for DiGRA is uploaded here:
>>
>> www.thechineseroom.co.uk/IGDASIGpaper.doc
>>
>> If anyone has the chance to glance over it and give me a sense of whether I'm heading the right direction with this, make comments, changes, etc, I'd be really grateful. Like I said, it's at a phenomenally early point (deadline is 1st August) so don't expect much!
>>
>> I also need to confirm for the programme a final title for the paper and confirm the list of authors - as I wasn't involved in the white paper, can someone just triple-check that for me and send a list/title?
>>
>> Finally, as soon as I have the exact date/time for the game preservation panel I'll send it through - but this paper will need a presenter. I can 'arrange' that if need be, but it would obviously be great to have someone from the SIG there (Andrew, you're just up the road... and I may be able to find some budget to help out with registration, etc?) Any thoughts there would also be great,
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> PS- thanks Melanie for the heads-up - hope this is a better way of doing things! :)
>>
>> Dr Dan Pinchbeck
>>
>> Advanced Games Research Group
>> School of Creative Technologies
>> University of Portsmouth, UK
>>
>> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
>> www.keep.port.ac.uk
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>   
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From lowood at stanford.edu  Wed Jul  1 13:41:25 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 10:41:25 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] [Fwd: [SIGs-Admin] IGDA Wiki Problems]
Message-ID: <4A4B9FC5.60903@stanford.edu>

More on the Wiki snafu.

Henry

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	[SIGs-Admin] IGDA Wiki Problems
Date: 	Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:36:12 -0400
From: 	Joseph Sapp <jsapp at TALLEY.com>
Reply-To: 	Private list for SIG leaders <sigs-admin at igda.org>
To: 	IGDA Chapter Admin Mailing List <chapter_admin at igda.org>, Private 
list for SIG leaders <sigs-admin at igda.org>



Hi All,

 

I wanted to make sure I kept everyone updated on the problems we have 
been having with the Wiki.  It appears there has been a re-occurring 
issue with a script repeatedly opening up php processes which is causing 
problems for the entire server.  This forced our host to disable the 
wiki.  Our options have are to change or modify the script or to upgrade 
the wiki software.  As we planned to upgrade the wiki software when we 
made the migration to the new website, we have opted for that direction 
to remedy this problem.  I am confident that we will get this problem 
resolved this afternoon.  If you have any questions about this please 
send them my way.  I apologize for any problems this outage has created. 

 

**Joseph R. Sapp**

Community Liaison, IGDA

19 Mantua Road

Mt. Royal, NJ 08061

856.423.2990ext.224

joda at IGDA.org <mailto:joda at IGDA.org>

Follow the IGDA on Twitter! http://twitter.com/igda 
<http://twitter.com/igda>

Or find us on Facebook and LinkedIn.

 


-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
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From lowood at stanford.edu  Wed Jul  1 19:03:27 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:03:27 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] [Fwd: [SIGs-Admin] IGDA:Wiki]
Message-ID: <4A4BEB3F.6080303@stanford.edu>

The latest on the wiki issues.   Reports have come in from other SIGs 
reporting broken links or log-in issues.  If you experience anything 
like this, let me or, even better, Joseph know.

Henry

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	[SIGs-Admin] IGDA:Wiki
Date: 	Wed, 1 Jul 2009 17:29:10 -0400
From: 	Joseph Sapp <jsapp at TALLEY.com>
Reply-To: 	Private list for SIG leaders <sigs-admin at igda.org>
To: 	<chapter_admin at igda.org>, <sigs-admin at igda.org>, "Tim IGDA" 
<timl at igda.org>
CC: 	Joshua Caulfield <joshuacaulfield at gmail.com>



Hi All,

 

Again, thanks everyone for being patient on this problem.  Brian, thanks 
for your input as well.  It seems it was just a simple config error.  We 
have made the fix and all the links are back working again.  Currently 
some of you may have issues logging in as Michael brought up.  There 
seems to be another issue with this.  A work around is at the log in 
page, enter your Username and then click E-Mail new Password.  Once you 
have this temporary password you can login and reset your password.  All 
info for user profiles and content for all pages seem to be back, there 
is just a need to reset your password.  We believe this problem is 
another config error and should be an easy fix.  Thanks again for your 
patience.

 

Thanks!

 

 

**Joseph R. Sapp**

Community Liaison, IGDA

19 Mantua Road

Mt. Royal, NJ 08061

856.423.2990ext.224

joda at IGDA.org <mailto:joda at IGDA.org>

Follow the IGDA on Twitter! http://twitter.com/igda 
<http://twitter.com/igda>

Or find us on Facebook and LinkedIn.

 


-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Thu Jul  2 05:46:34 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 10:46:34 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] [Monthly SIG Roundup] July 2009
Message-ID: <4A4C81FA.1050203@aarmstrong.org>

The SIG will have their first white paper presented at DiGRA, which Dan 
Pinchbeck is still organising and has posted news on, although I've been 
too busy to work on anything additional for the SIG and no one has other 
contributions this month.


      Preservation SIG Juny 2009 Work

I've been busy, so apart from some planning haven't got anything to put 
forward as work. The SIG hasn't got any other ongoing projects right 
now, but if you are interested, at all, in preservation to help us with 
our projects <http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG> (and if 
you think something is missing, please tell us).


      Future Work for July 2009

All our projects need to get going really!


      Mailing List Discussions

If you've not joined our mailing list 
<http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation>, please do 
so. We've never tried using our forums it seems :) we stick to 
old-fangled email. This will eventually change when the IGDA site 
changes over - although those wanting email can still get it.

June 
<http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/2009-June/thread.html> 
had mainly discussions on the the SIG paper at DiGRA 
<http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/2009-June/001236.html>. 
We'll sort the paper being presented, and I'll be down for the panel in 
October.

Devin also has kept us updated of some very neat items - the making of 
Earthworm Jim 
<http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/2009-June/001243.html>, 
1Up on Michael Jackson 
<http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/2009-June/001245.html>, 
and Unseen 64 Call for Art 
<http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/2009-June/001240.html>. 



      Preservation SIG Blog Updates / Links

/Have I missed anything this month? Then email it in to 
preservation_news @ igda.org !/

I'm afraid there's been nothing presented my way, or anything I've seen, 
to post about regarding the state of game preservation.


      Final Thoughts

Hopefully I'll get my spare time sorted to work on some of the projects. 
I want to try and finish or at least get going one per month. Please, 
however, if you're interested in helping just put some work into the 
information on the wiki would really help :)

Andrew Armstrong

IGDA Game Preservation SIG Site/Blog editor

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From lowood at stanford.edu  Thu Jul  2 11:57:33 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 08:57:33 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] [Fwd: IGDA: Announcing New Executive Director]
Message-ID: <4A4CD8ED.6080804@stanford.edu>

Not sure if you are all members, but just in case, here is an IGDA 
announcement that went out today.  Henry

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	IGDA: Announcing New Executive Director
Date: 	Thu, 2 Jul 2009 08:48:41 -0400
From: 	IGDA <igda at igda.org>
To: 	lowood at stanford.edu



Dear Members and Friends,
 
  I am very happy to tell you that our search for an Executive Director 
is over!  The Board has reached an agreement with Joshua Caulfield, an 
accomplished and experienced association management executive who has 
the added plus of being an avid gamer.
 
I know some people may be surprised that we decided to hire someone from 
the association management field, rather than a game industry 
"luminary."  But what became clear to the board as we worked our way 
through an evaluation of the org is that most of the challenges the IGDA 
faces are not due to a lack of knowledge about the game industry (which 
our board and our key volunteers have in abundance), but rather a lack 
of knowledge about how to *run an association* and to serve the needs of 
our SIGS, Chapters, and members.  There are professionals who do this 
for a living, and Joshua is one of the best.
 
Probably the biggest change that this will bring to the way we think 
about the ED role is that Joshua will not be the "voice of the IGDA" to 
the media and general public.  The role of spokesperson will go to the 
Chair (currently me!) and Joshua will be an "inward-facing" ED so he can 
focus his full attention on the smooth operation of the org.   Joshua 
has already begun reaching out to the SIG and Chapter leaders and to the 
folks at Talley Management Group.  They have been helping him come up to 
speed quickly about the operations side of the organization, and he has 
also begun the longer-term task of learning about our industry, our 
members, and how to further the IGDA's mission of improving the careers 
and lives of all of us in the game development community.   I am very 
excited about Joshua coming on board. I think that as you get to know 
him and see what he brings to our group, you will be too.  There are a 
lot of things going on, and he'll need time to get to each of them in 
turn, but he's been very open to hearing from all of our diverse 
membership, and I encourage you to send him an email (joshua at igda.org 
<mailto:joshua at igda.org>) if you have a concern that needs to be addressed.
 
Happy Gaming,
 
- Bob Bates  
Confirm to list: July 09 
<https://app.icontact.com/icp/confirm.php?r=11514742&s=OFQY&gid=28241&c=429645&l=11816&m=130769>



This message was sent from IGDA to lowood at stanford.edu. It was sent 
from: IGDA, 19 Mantua Road, Mt Royal, NJ 08061. 	

Email Marketing by <http://www.icontact.com/a.pl/144186>
iContact - Try It Free! <http://www.icontact.com/a.pl/144186>



-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
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From melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au  Thu Jul  2 22:33:12 2009
From: melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au (Melanie Swalwell)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:03:12 +0930
Subject: [game_preservation] [Fwd: Re: [SIGs-Admin]
 [SIGs_Admin][chapter-admin] Update on new IGDA	website]
In-Reply-To: <4A2E8B24.40505@stanford.edu>
References: <4A2E8B24.40505@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <4A4D6DE8.4000501@flinders.edu.au>

Hi Henry,

I'm responding very late on this. I see there're plans in the email 
below to migrate addresses from the existing mailman listservs. I'm 
assuming that means they'll not be used in the future. Will the list 
archives remain intact? I realise it's an obvious question, so I'm 
hoping it's an angle that's been covered by the website team...

regards,

Melanie

Henry Lowood wrote:
> FYI to the SIG> I have not had time to be very involved in the new 
> website testing. If there is an issue here you would like me to 
> inquire about, let me know.
>
> Henry
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: 	Re: [SIGs-Admin] [SIGs_Admin][chapter-admin] Update on new 
> IGDA website
> Date: 	Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:17:08 -0700
> From: 	Tim Langdell <tim at edgegames.com>
> Reply-To: 	Private list for SIG leaders <sigs-admin at igda.org>
> To: 	IGDA Chapter Admin Mailing List <chapter_admin at igda.org>, Private 
> list for SIG leaders <sigs-admin at igda.org>
>
>
>
> Dear IGDA SIG and CHAPTER Leaders,
>
> I am happy to report that we are finally close to being able to take 
> the new website live, and that it will have most of the features many 
> of you have been anticipating. We do have some substantial work left 
> to do, mainly in the back-end integration of financial infrastructure, 
> but we have also devised a way to take the website live with this 
> functionality mostly complete and with a plan to then complete it in 
> the weeks following launch. We are also still adding in the social 
> networking part of the new website, so please bear with us on that. 
> The IGDA Store will be added soon, too.
>
> The main purpose of this email is to get information and feedback on 
> the six areas below. If you haven't had the opportunity to look at the 
> test site yet, I recommend you do so as soon as possible. I understand 
> all of you have access to the test website - please tell me if that 
> isn't the case:
>
> 1) Are there any key features you were expecting to see on day-one 
> that do not seem to be present in the current test website today?
>
> 2) Are there any major bugs in the current test site you are aware of, 
> or ways the website works you think should be changed before we go live?
>
> 3) As to the look and feel, the test website has the relatively modest 
> changes to appearance and functionality the team was able to do in our 
> budget. It should be stable and visible in Firefox, and shortly 
> working flawlessly in IE too. We hope to budget a more extensive 
> upgrade in the future. What do you think about the current design, in 
> terms of going live ?
>
> 4) The current plan is to migrate all the current members of each SIG 
> and CHAPTER by simply importing the members from the existing 
> ListServs. Clearly, where some of you are using other solutions such 
> as Google Groups we will need you to supply us with a list of your 
> members? emails in some useable form (such as a comma separated file). 
> If this applies to you, please send me your list (or let me know so we 
> can work out the format) and I will coordinate ensuring our website 
> developers have all SIG and CHAPTER member lists.
>
> 5) Some SIGS (and some CHAPTERS?) have tiers of membership such that 
> you would not wish all members to have access to all your SIG or 
> CHAPTER areas on the new website. The current plan is to import the 
> entire list of your members, and we let you, as SIG and CHAPTER 
> leaders, select which member has what level of access, who has admin 
> privileges, etc. Do you think this will work for your SIG/CHAPTER?
>
> 6) Based on the test website as it stands do you currently have all 
> the levels of access and sub-groups, etc that you will need on "day 
> one" so that you can assign your members to have access to each of the 
> levels, each of the groups and sub-groups? If not, then I need you to 
> email me directly what levels you will need and how it differs from 
> what is there in the test site for you right now.
>
> That's it for the questions! If you could try to respond to me by 
> later this week it will help us confirm the final timeline and get 
> prepared for going live. Once your final questions and concerns have 
> been addressed, we expect the process of migration should be a fairly 
> swift one with perhaps the existing IGDA website and the existing 
> ListServs going down for perhaps as little as one or at most two days. 
> That would be our goal. But please do bear in mind that when we "flip 
> the switch" on that migration in readiness for the new website to go 
> live, all access to the old website site will be permanently lost, as 
> will all access to the old ListServs, etc. So we are taking care to be 
> sure everyone here, and the web team, are fully prepared.
>
> If you have any questions or concerns I ask that you contact me, 
> please, so that I can collate everyone's responses and coordinate what 
> I sincerely trust is the final push before we can take this long 
> awaited new website live.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Tim Langdell
> Member, IGDA Board of Directors
>
> -- 
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
> Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

-- 
Dr Melanie Swalwell
Senior Lecturer, Screen and Media
& Course Coordinator, B. Media
Flinders University
GPO Box 2100
Adelaide SA 5001

125B Humanities Bldg

Ph: +61 8 8201 2619
Fax: +61 8 8201 3635

melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au


From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Fri Jul  3 12:45:21 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:45:21 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] [Fwd: Re: [SIGs-Admin]
 [SIGs_Admin][chapter-admin] Update on new IGDA	website]
In-Reply-To: <4A4D6DE8.4000501@flinders.edu.au>
References: <4A2E8B24.40505@stanford.edu> <4A4D6DE8.4000501@flinders.edu.au>
Message-ID: <4A4E35A1.8040104@aarmstrong.org>

I've been sneakily uploading archives of the past months on our list 
here: 
http://www.igda.org/wiki/Special:ListFiles?limit=20&ilsearch=Preservation_SIG&title=Special%3AListFiles

I will link them in, which I've totally forgotten to do actually.

However, I've not checked what the plan is in general. To be honest, I 
doubt they've even considered it, along with the forums disappearing. 
This is a problem of course.

I will need to check, and will get in touch with Joseph and Tim 
immediately. This is rather important!

Andrew

Melanie Swalwell wrote:
> Hi Henry,
>
> I'm responding very late on this. I see there're plans in the email 
> below to migrate addresses from the existing mailman listservs. I'm 
> assuming that means they'll not be used in the future. Will the list 
> archives remain intact? I realise it's an obvious question, so I'm 
> hoping it's an angle that's been covered by the website team...
>
> regards,
>
> Melanie
>
> Henry Lowood wrote:
>> FYI to the SIG> I have not had time to be very involved in the new 
>> website testing. If there is an issue here you would like me to 
>> inquire about, let me know.
>>
>> Henry
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject:     Re: [SIGs-Admin] [SIGs_Admin][chapter-admin] Update on 
>> new IGDA website
>> Date:     Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:17:08 -0700
>> From:     Tim Langdell <tim at edgegames.com>
>> Reply-To:     Private list for SIG leaders <sigs-admin at igda.org>
>> To:     IGDA Chapter Admin Mailing List <chapter_admin at igda.org>, 
>> Private list for SIG leaders <sigs-admin at igda.org>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear IGDA SIG and CHAPTER Leaders,
>>
>> I am happy to report that we are finally close to being able to take 
>> the new website live, and that it will have most of the features many 
>> of you have been anticipating. We do have some substantial work left 
>> to do, mainly in the back-end integration of financial 
>> infrastructure, but we have also devised a way to take the website 
>> live with this functionality mostly complete and with a plan to then 
>> complete it in the weeks following launch. We are also still adding 
>> in the social networking part of the new website, so please bear with 
>> us on that. The IGDA Store will be added soon, too.
>>
>> The main purpose of this email is to get information and feedback on 
>> the six areas below. If you haven't had the opportunity to look at 
>> the test site yet, I recommend you do so as soon as possible. I 
>> understand all of you have access to the test website - please tell 
>> me if that isn't the case:
>>
>> 1) Are there any key features you were expecting to see on day-one 
>> that do not seem to be present in the current test website today?
>>
>> 2) Are there any major bugs in the current test site you are aware 
>> of, or ways the website works you think should be changed before we 
>> go live?
>>
>> 3) As to the look and feel, the test website has the relatively 
>> modest changes to appearance and functionality the team was able to 
>> do in our budget. It should be stable and visible in Firefox, and 
>> shortly working flawlessly in IE too. We hope to budget a more 
>> extensive upgrade in the future. What do you think about the current 
>> design, in terms of going live ?
>>
>> 4) The current plan is to migrate all the current members of each SIG 
>> and CHAPTER by simply importing the members from the existing 
>> ListServs. Clearly, where some of you are using other solutions such 
>> as Google Groups we will need you to supply us with a list of your 
>> members? emails in some useable form (such as a comma separated 
>> file). If this applies to you, please send me your list (or let me 
>> know so we can work out the format) and I will coordinate ensuring 
>> our website developers have all SIG and CHAPTER member lists.
>>
>> 5) Some SIGS (and some CHAPTERS?) have tiers of membership such that 
>> you would not wish all members to have access to all your SIG or 
>> CHAPTER areas on the new website. The current plan is to import the 
>> entire list of your members, and we let you, as SIG and CHAPTER 
>> leaders, select which member has what level of access, who has admin 
>> privileges, etc. Do you think this will work for your SIG/CHAPTER?
>>
>> 6) Based on the test website as it stands do you currently have all 
>> the levels of access and sub-groups, etc that you will need on "day 
>> one" so that you can assign your members to have access to each of 
>> the levels, each of the groups and sub-groups? If not, then I need 
>> you to email me directly what levels you will need and how it differs 
>> from what is there in the test site for you right now.
>>
>> That's it for the questions! If you could try to respond to me by 
>> later this week it will help us confirm the final timeline and get 
>> prepared for going live. Once your final questions and concerns have 
>> been addressed, we expect the process of migration should be a fairly 
>> swift one with perhaps the existing IGDA website and the existing 
>> ListServs going down for perhaps as little as one or at most two 
>> days. That would be our goal. But please do bear in mind that when we 
>> "flip the switch" on that migration in readiness for the new website 
>> to go live, all access to the old website site will be permanently 
>> lost, as will all access to the old ListServs, etc. So we are taking 
>> care to be sure everyone here, and the web team, are fully prepared.
>>
>> If you have any questions or concerns I ask that you contact me, 
>> please, so that I can collate everyone's responses and coordinate 
>> what I sincerely trust is the final push before we can take this long 
>> awaited new website live.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Tim Langdell
>> Member, IGDA Board of Directors
>>
>> -- 
>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>> Film & Media Collections
>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>> Stanford University Libraries
>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
>> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Fri Jul  3 13:24:45 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 18:24:45 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] [Fwd: Re: [SIGs-Admin]
 [SIGs_Admin][chapter-admin] Update on new IGDA	website]
In-Reply-To: <4A4E35A1.8040104@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A2E8B24.40505@stanford.edu> <4A4D6DE8.4000501@flinders.edu.au>
	<4A4E35A1.8040104@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <4A4E3EDD.7040404@aarmstrong.org>

Actually, I forgot, I put the links to the mailing list files on the SIG 
history page:

http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/SIG_History

I've added them to the SIG Resources page too. Oops!

As for 2009's, since we're still in 2009 I'm just downloading them every 
month. I've not got any other SIG's though, I should do it on the ones 
I'm on sometime.

Sent the email to Joseph, we'll see what he says.

Andrew

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> I've been sneakily uploading archives of the past months on our list 
> here: 
> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Special:ListFiles?limit=20&ilsearch=Preservation_SIG&title=Special%3AListFiles 
>
>
> I will link them in, which I've totally forgotten to do actually.
>
> However, I've not checked what the plan is in general. To be honest, I 
> doubt they've even considered it, along with the forums disappearing. 
> This is a problem of course.
>
> I will need to check, and will get in touch with Joseph and Tim 
> immediately. This is rather important!
>
> Andrew
>
> Melanie Swalwell wrote:
>> Hi Henry,
>>
>> I'm responding very late on this. I see there're plans in the email 
>> below to migrate addresses from the existing mailman listservs. I'm 
>> assuming that means they'll not be used in the future. Will the list 
>> archives remain intact? I realise it's an obvious question, so I'm 
>> hoping it's an angle that's been covered by the website team...
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Melanie
>>
>> Henry Lowood wrote:
>>> FYI to the SIG> I have not had time to be very involved in the new 
>>> website testing. If there is an issue here you would like me to 
>>> inquire about, let me know.
>>>
>>> Henry
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: Re: [SIGs-Admin] [SIGs_Admin][chapter-admin] Update on new 
>>> IGDA website
>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:17:08 -0700
>>> From: Tim Langdell <tim at edgegames.com>
>>> Reply-To: Private list for SIG leaders <sigs-admin at igda.org>
>>> To: IGDA Chapter Admin Mailing List <chapter_admin at igda.org>, 
>>> Private list for SIG leaders <sigs-admin at igda.org>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear IGDA SIG and CHAPTER Leaders,
>>>
>>> I am happy to report that we are finally close to being able to take 
>>> the new website live, and that it will have most of the features 
>>> many of you have been anticipating. We do have some substantial work 
>>> left to do, mainly in the back-end integration of financial 
>>> infrastructure, but we have also devised a way to take the website 
>>> live with this functionality mostly complete and with a plan to then 
>>> complete it in the weeks following launch. We are also still adding 
>>> in the social networking part of the new website, so please bear 
>>> with us on that. The IGDA Store will be added soon, too.
>>>
>>> The main purpose of this email is to get information and feedback on 
>>> the six areas below. If you haven't had the opportunity to look at 
>>> the test site yet, I recommend you do so as soon as possible. I 
>>> understand all of you have access to the test website - please tell 
>>> me if that isn't the case:
>>>
>>> 1) Are there any key features you were expecting to see on day-one 
>>> that do not seem to be present in the current test website today?
>>>
>>> 2) Are there any major bugs in the current test site you are aware 
>>> of, or ways the website works you think should be changed before we 
>>> go live?
>>>
>>> 3) As to the look and feel, the test website has the relatively 
>>> modest changes to appearance and functionality the team was able to 
>>> do in our budget. It should be stable and visible in Firefox, and 
>>> shortly working flawlessly in IE too. We hope to budget a more 
>>> extensive upgrade in the future. What do you think about the current 
>>> design, in terms of going live ?
>>>
>>> 4) The current plan is to migrate all the current members of each 
>>> SIG and CHAPTER by simply importing the members from the existing 
>>> ListServs. Clearly, where some of you are using other solutions such 
>>> as Google Groups we will need you to supply us with a list of your 
>>> members? emails in some useable form (such as a comma separated 
>>> file). If this applies to you, please send me your list (or let me 
>>> know so we can work out the format) and I will coordinate ensuring 
>>> our website developers have all SIG and CHAPTER member lists.
>>>
>>> 5) Some SIGS (and some CHAPTERS?) have tiers of membership such that 
>>> you would not wish all members to have access to all your SIG or 
>>> CHAPTER areas on the new website. The current plan is to import the 
>>> entire list of your members, and we let you, as SIG and CHAPTER 
>>> leaders, select which member has what level of access, who has admin 
>>> privileges, etc. Do you think this will work for your SIG/CHAPTER?
>>>
>>> 6) Based on the test website as it stands do you currently have all 
>>> the levels of access and sub-groups, etc that you will need on "day 
>>> one" so that you can assign your members to have access to each of 
>>> the levels, each of the groups and sub-groups? If not, then I need 
>>> you to email me directly what levels you will need and how it 
>>> differs from what is there in the test site for you right now.
>>>
>>> That's it for the questions! If you could try to respond to me by 
>>> later this week it will help us confirm the final timeline and get 
>>> prepared for going live. Once your final questions and concerns have 
>>> been addressed, we expect the process of migration should be a 
>>> fairly swift one with perhaps the existing IGDA website and the 
>>> existing ListServs going down for perhaps as little as one or at 
>>> most two days. That would be our goal. But please do bear in mind 
>>> that when we "flip the switch" on that migration in readiness for 
>>> the new website to go live, all access to the old website site will 
>>> be permanently lost, as will all access to the old ListServs, etc. 
>>> So we are taking care to be sure everyone here, and the web team, 
>>> are fully prepared.
>>>
>>> If you have any questions or concerns I ask that you contact me, 
>>> please, so that I can collate everyone's responses and coordinate 
>>> what I sincerely trust is the final push before we can take this 
>>> long awaited new website live.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>> Tim Langdell
>>> Member, IGDA Board of Directors
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>> Film & Media Collections
>>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>> Stanford University Libraries
>>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
>>> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sat Jul  4 14:18:12 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:18:12 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Atari 7800 games source code found/released
Message-ID: <4A4F9CE4.8090605@aarmstrong.org>

Unofficial, and not at all legal, but interesting none the less:

http://www.programmerfish.com/source-code-of-several-7800-games-released/
http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/consoles/7800/games/

I liked the /. comment which had source code snippits, hehe :

http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1291303&cid=28576011

Andrew

From lowood at stanford.edu  Sun Jul  5 19:03:14 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:03:14 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] [Fwd: Re: [SIGs-Admin]
 [SIGs_Admin][chapter-admin] Update on new IGDA	website]
In-Reply-To: <4A4E3EDD.7040404@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A2E8B24.40505@stanford.edu>
	<4A4D6DE8.4000501@flinders.edu.au>	<4A4E35A1.8040104@aarmstrong.org>
	<4A4E3EDD.7040404@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <4A513132.1050705@stanford.edu>

Andrew,

Thanks.  

Henry

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> Actually, I forgot, I put the links to the mailing list files on the 
> SIG history page:
>
> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/SIG_History
>
> I've added them to the SIG Resources page too. Oops!
>
> As for 2009's, since we're still in 2009 I'm just downloading them 
> every month. I've not got any other SIG's though, I should do it on 
> the ones I'm on sometime.
>
> Sent the email to Joseph, we'll see what he says.
>
> Andrew
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>> I've been sneakily uploading archives of the past months on our list 
>> here: 
>> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Special:ListFiles?limit=20&ilsearch=Preservation_SIG&title=Special%3AListFiles 
>>
>>
>> I will link them in, which I've totally forgotten to do actually.
>>
>> However, I've not checked what the plan is in general. To be honest, 
>> I doubt they've even considered it, along with the forums 
>> disappearing. This is a problem of course.
>>
>> I will need to check, and will get in touch with Joseph and Tim 
>> immediately. This is rather important!
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Melanie Swalwell wrote:
>>> Hi Henry,
>>>
>>> I'm responding very late on this. I see there're plans in the email 
>>> below to migrate addresses from the existing mailman listservs. I'm 
>>> assuming that means they'll not be used in the future. Will the list 
>>> archives remain intact? I realise it's an obvious question, so I'm 
>>> hoping it's an angle that's been covered by the website team...
>>>
>>> regards,
>>>
>>> Melanie
>>>
>>> Henry Lowood wrote:
>>>> FYI to the SIG> I have not had time to be very involved in the new 
>>>> website testing. If there is an issue here you would like me to 
>>>> inquire about, let me know.
>>>>
>>>> Henry
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> Subject: Re: [SIGs-Admin] [SIGs_Admin][chapter-admin] Update on new 
>>>> IGDA website
>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:17:08 -0700
>>>> From: Tim Langdell <tim at edgegames.com>
>>>> Reply-To: Private list for SIG leaders <sigs-admin at igda.org>
>>>> To: IGDA Chapter Admin Mailing List <chapter_admin at igda.org>, 
>>>> Private list for SIG leaders <sigs-admin at igda.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear IGDA SIG and CHAPTER Leaders,
>>>>
>>>> I am happy to report that we are finally close to being able to 
>>>> take the new website live, and that it will have most of the 
>>>> features many of you have been anticipating. We do have some 
>>>> substantial work left to do, mainly in the back-end integration of 
>>>> financial infrastructure, but we have also devised a way to take 
>>>> the website live with this functionality mostly complete and with a 
>>>> plan to then complete it in the weeks following launch. We are also 
>>>> still adding in the social networking part of the new website, so 
>>>> please bear with us on that. The IGDA Store will be added soon, too.
>>>>
>>>> The main purpose of this email is to get information and feedback 
>>>> on the six areas below. If you haven't had the opportunity to look 
>>>> at the test site yet, I recommend you do so as soon as possible. I 
>>>> understand all of you have access to the test website - please tell 
>>>> me if that isn't the case:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Are there any key features you were expecting to see on day-one 
>>>> that do not seem to be present in the current test website today?
>>>>
>>>> 2) Are there any major bugs in the current test site you are aware 
>>>> of, or ways the website works you think should be changed before we 
>>>> go live?
>>>>
>>>> 3) As to the look and feel, the test website has the relatively 
>>>> modest changes to appearance and functionality the team was able to 
>>>> do in our budget. It should be stable and visible in Firefox, and 
>>>> shortly working flawlessly in IE too. We hope to budget a more 
>>>> extensive upgrade in the future. What do you think about the 
>>>> current design, in terms of going live ?
>>>>
>>>> 4) The current plan is to migrate all the current members of each 
>>>> SIG and CHAPTER by simply importing the members from the existing 
>>>> ListServs. Clearly, where some of you are using other solutions 
>>>> such as Google Groups we will need you to supply us with a list of 
>>>> your members? emails in some useable form (such as a comma 
>>>> separated file). If this applies to you, please send me your list 
>>>> (or let me know so we can work out the format) and I will 
>>>> coordinate ensuring our website developers have all SIG and CHAPTER 
>>>> member lists.
>>>>
>>>> 5) Some SIGS (and some CHAPTERS?) have tiers of membership such 
>>>> that you would not wish all members to have access to all your SIG 
>>>> or CHAPTER areas on the new website. The current plan is to import 
>>>> the entire list of your members, and we let you, as SIG and CHAPTER 
>>>> leaders, select which member has what level of access, who has 
>>>> admin privileges, etc. Do you think this will work for your 
>>>> SIG/CHAPTER?
>>>>
>>>> 6) Based on the test website as it stands do you currently have all 
>>>> the levels of access and sub-groups, etc that you will need on "day 
>>>> one" so that you can assign your members to have access to each of 
>>>> the levels, each of the groups and sub-groups? If not, then I need 
>>>> you to email me directly what levels you will need and how it 
>>>> differs from what is there in the test site for you right now.
>>>>
>>>> That's it for the questions! If you could try to respond to me by 
>>>> later this week it will help us confirm the final timeline and get 
>>>> prepared for going live. Once your final questions and concerns 
>>>> have been addressed, we expect the process of migration should be a 
>>>> fairly swift one with perhaps the existing IGDA website and the 
>>>> existing ListServs going down for perhaps as little as one or at 
>>>> most two days. That would be our goal. But please do bear in mind 
>>>> that when we "flip the switch" on that migration in readiness for 
>>>> the new website to go live, all access to the old website site will 
>>>> be permanently lost, as will all access to the old ListServs, etc. 
>>>> So we are taking care to be sure everyone here, and the web team, 
>>>> are fully prepared.
>>>>
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns I ask that you contact me, 
>>>> please, so that I can collate everyone's responses and coordinate 
>>>> what I sincerely trust is the final push before we can take this 
>>>> long awaited new website live.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>
>>>> Tim Langdell
>>>> Member, IGDA Board of Directors
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>>> Film & Media Collections
>>>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>>> Stanford University Libraries
>>>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
>>>> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

-------------- next part --------------
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From lowood at stanford.edu  Sun Jul  5 19:02:13 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:02:13 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] [Fwd: Re: [SIGs-Admin]
 [SIGs_Admin][chapter-admin] Update on new IGDA	website]
In-Reply-To: <4A4D6DE8.4000501@flinders.edu.au>
References: <4A2E8B24.40505@stanford.edu> <4A4D6DE8.4000501@flinders.edu.au>
Message-ID: <4A5130F5.7060704@stanford.edu>

Melanie,

I don't really know the answer to your question.   I've adopted a 
wait-and-see attitude towards the new site.    There have been countless 
discussion threads and "announcements" for months on the IGDA SIG heads 
list about this, flooding my in-box, too much for me to follow.   The 
site itself has been in development for a year or so.   Andrew will be 
keeping an eye on the WIKI content and archives, I think.  Whatever does 
not happen automatically, we will have to try to move over by hand. 

For what it's worth, I have not found a specific post on the subject.   
I'll look over Andrew's response to you, and if it looks like he has 
things in hand, we'll just go with what he has done.  If not, I'll ask 
specifically about this.

Henry

Melanie Swalwell wrote:
> Hi Henry,
>
> I'm responding very late on this. I see there're plans in the email 
> below to migrate addresses from the existing mailman listservs. I'm 
> assuming that means they'll not be used in the future. Will the list 
> archives remain intact? I realise it's an obvious question, so I'm 
> hoping it's an angle that's been covered by the website team...
>
> regards,
>
> Melanie
>
> Henry Lowood wrote:
>> FYI to the SIG> I have not had time to be very involved in the new 
>> website testing. If there is an issue here you would like me to 
>> inquire about, let me know.
>>
>> Henry
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject:     Re: [SIGs-Admin] [SIGs_Admin][chapter-admin] Update on 
>> new IGDA website
>> Date:     Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:17:08 -0700
>> From:     Tim Langdell <tim at edgegames.com>
>> Reply-To:     Private list for SIG leaders <sigs-admin at igda.org>
>> To:     IGDA Chapter Admin Mailing List <chapter_admin at igda.org>, 
>> Private list for SIG leaders <sigs-admin at igda.org>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear IGDA SIG and CHAPTER Leaders,
>>
>> I am happy to report that we are finally close to being able to take 
>> the new website live, and that it will have most of the features many 
>> of you have been anticipating. We do have some substantial work left 
>> to do, mainly in the back-end integration of financial 
>> infrastructure, but we have also devised a way to take the website 
>> live with this functionality mostly complete and with a plan to then 
>> complete it in the weeks following launch. We are also still adding 
>> in the social networking part of the new website, so please bear with 
>> us on that. The IGDA Store will be added soon, too.
>>
>> The main purpose of this email is to get information and feedback on 
>> the six areas below. If you haven't had the opportunity to look at 
>> the test site yet, I recommend you do so as soon as possible. I 
>> understand all of you have access to the test website - please tell 
>> me if that isn't the case:
>>
>> 1) Are there any key features you were expecting to see on day-one 
>> that do not seem to be present in the current test website today?
>>
>> 2) Are there any major bugs in the current test site you are aware 
>> of, or ways the website works you think should be changed before we 
>> go live?
>>
>> 3) As to the look and feel, the test website has the relatively 
>> modest changes to appearance and functionality the team was able to 
>> do in our budget. It should be stable and visible in Firefox, and 
>> shortly working flawlessly in IE too. We hope to budget a more 
>> extensive upgrade in the future. What do you think about the current 
>> design, in terms of going live ?
>>
>> 4) The current plan is to migrate all the current members of each SIG 
>> and CHAPTER by simply importing the members from the existing 
>> ListServs. Clearly, where some of you are using other solutions such 
>> as Google Groups we will need you to supply us with a list of your 
>> members? emails in some useable form (such as a comma separated 
>> file). If this applies to you, please send me your list (or let me 
>> know so we can work out the format) and I will coordinate ensuring 
>> our website developers have all SIG and CHAPTER member lists.
>>
>> 5) Some SIGS (and some CHAPTERS?) have tiers of membership such that 
>> you would not wish all members to have access to all your SIG or 
>> CHAPTER areas on the new website. The current plan is to import the 
>> entire list of your members, and we let you, as SIG and CHAPTER 
>> leaders, select which member has what level of access, who has admin 
>> privileges, etc. Do you think this will work for your SIG/CHAPTER?
>>
>> 6) Based on the test website as it stands do you currently have all 
>> the levels of access and sub-groups, etc that you will need on "day 
>> one" so that you can assign your members to have access to each of 
>> the levels, each of the groups and sub-groups? If not, then I need 
>> you to email me directly what levels you will need and how it differs 
>> from what is there in the test site for you right now.
>>
>> That's it for the questions! If you could try to respond to me by 
>> later this week it will help us confirm the final timeline and get 
>> prepared for going live. Once your final questions and concerns have 
>> been addressed, we expect the process of migration should be a fairly 
>> swift one with perhaps the existing IGDA website and the existing 
>> ListServs going down for perhaps as little as one or at most two 
>> days. That would be our goal. But please do bear in mind that when we 
>> "flip the switch" on that migration in readiness for the new website 
>> to go live, all access to the old website site will be permanently 
>> lost, as will all access to the old ListServs, etc. So we are taking 
>> care to be sure everyone here, and the web team, are fully prepared.
>>
>> If you have any questions or concerns I ask that you contact me, 
>> please, so that I can collate everyone's responses and coordinate 
>> what I sincerely trust is the final push before we can take this long 
>> awaited new website live.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Tim Langdell
>> Member, IGDA Board of Directors
>>
>> -- 
>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>> Film & Media Collections
>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>> Stanford University Libraries
>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
>> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

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From Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk  Fri Jul 10 04:23:36 2009
From: Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk (Dan Pinchbeck)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 09:23:36 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] SIG paper for DiGRA
Message-ID: <4A570898020000B500093981@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>

Hi Andrew

Sorry about the delay - hoping to hit the paper properly next week, so maybe we can discuss it all then!

Cheers

Dan

Dr Dan Pinchbeck

Advanced Games Research Group
School of Creative Technologies
University of Portsmouth, UK

www.thechineseroom.co.uk
www.keep.port.ac.uk
>>> Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org> 01/07/09 4:22 PM >>>
Looks like a pretty good programme, although the topics of some of the 
items need some real explanation, so I hope the program isn't just 
resigned to a word document.

I've paid up for it now, quite a hefty bit of cash but should be good ;) 
hopefully won't be too hot that time of year either, I'm sweltering 
right now.

I'll give the paper a once over at some point when I have some time. :)

Andrew

Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
> Hiya,
>
> Everything goes through the conference website:
>
> http://digra2009.newport.ac.uk
>
> The draft programme is through and the session is provionally slotted in Thursday 3rd in the morning
>
> dan
>
> Dr Dan Pinchbeck
>
> Advanced Games Research Group
> School of Creative Technologies
> University of Portsmouth, UK
>
> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
> www.keep.port.ac.uk
>   
>>>> Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org> 26/06/09 12:26 AM >>>
>>>>         
> Okay, I'm finally back onto my email, urg, I'll batter my host more 
> harshly when they didn't get it working after their promised 2 days so I 
> lost a weeks worth of email, bah.
>
> I'll be able to come down, I've booked holiday time for that week, I 
> just need to know how to book a place at the event and accommodation.
>
> I've not got a chance today or tomorrow to read this structural draft - 
> I also note you didn't have any changes enabled, so it's hard to see 
> what's changed at a glance, sorry - I'll try and look later this weekend.
>
> As for a title, I don't know, it depends what you want the paper to be 
> edited to be.
>
> Andrew
>
> Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
>   
>> hi all,
>>
>> a very (very) initial structural draft of the paper for DiGRA is uploaded here:
>>
>> www.thechineseroom.co.uk/IGDASIGpaper.doc
>>
>> If anyone has the chance to glance over it and give me a sense of whether I'm heading the right direction with this, make comments, changes, etc, I'd be really grateful. Like I said, it's at a phenomenally early point (deadline is 1st August) so don't expect much!
>>
>> I also need to confirm for the programme a final title for the paper and confirm the list of authors - as I wasn't involved in the white paper, can someone just triple-check that for me and send a list/title?
>>
>> Finally, as soon as I have the exact date/time for the game preservation panel I'll send it through - but this paper will need a presenter. I can 'arrange' that if need be, but it would obviously be great to have someone from the SIG there (Andrew, you're just up the road... and I may be able to find some budget to help out with registration, etc?) Any thoughts there would also be great,
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> PS- thanks Melanie for the heads-up - hope this is a better way of doing things! :)
>>
>> Dr Dan Pinchbeck
>>
>> Advanced Games Research Group
>> School of Creative Technologies
>> University of Portsmouth, UK
>>
>> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
>> www.keep.port.ac.uk
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>   
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   


From dmonnens at gmail.com  Sat Jul 11 09:51:23 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 07:51:23 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] CFP: Curatorship and exhibition of gaming
	history (Next Gen; deadline 	Aug 1)
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50907110651k6d75b4a3o6af1c0e5e95ee0ad@mail.gmail.com>

Forwarded from Beth A Lameman

I noticed that Eludamos
> has a section on "Curatorship and exhibition of gaming history ?
> problems, opportunities, practices" in its upcoming Special Issue
>
> aka Beth A. Dillon
>


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Beth Aileen Lameman <beth at bethaileen.com>
Date: Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 9:44 AM
Subject: CfP: Eludamos Journal Special Issue ?Next Gen? (Due Aug 1)
To: Magy Seif El-Nasr <magy at sfu.ca>


CfP: Eludamos Journal Special Issue ?Next Gen?
Due August 1, 2009

Call for a special issue of Eludamos, titled: ?Next Gen.?

Guest editors are Thomas J. Apperley, Darshana Jayemanne and Christian
McCrea.

Console gaming has already had more than one ?Next Generation?. PC
gamers feverishly upgrade their rigs with each new state of the art
FPS. Periodisation is often a major preoccupation for critics and
publics interested in other media, but in the case of videogames the
rapid pace of technical development seems to set the agenda of
generational change. Games are caught up, culturally as well as
aesthetically and technically, in their own futurism: each generation
claims to be both anticipation and fulfillment of an imagined horizon
of experience. Simultaneously, older technologies find new uses and
contexts within the very conditions of their supposed obsolescence.
Gaming is constantly speculating on its own future and recalling its
past in order to coordinate a restless present. Just how coherent are
gaming?s generations, and is the adoption of such classifications from
the wider culture useful or counter-productive for academic game
studies?

This special issue of Eludamos invites essays on the topic of
generational change in gaming, from broad overviews of the critical
usefulness of ?official? Next Generations to microhistories of
individual game franchises or lineages, from agenda-setting successes
to failed attempts that were too soon, too late, or just too bad.
Possible avenues of exploration may include:
* The New Games journalism, advertising, hype and style in the gaming
press * Generational change in academia: Do we need a new Game
Studies? * Materiality: Histories of specific devices, console design
and futurism. * Audio and graphical standards and the historical
status of claims to the realistic * Audio and graphical standards and
the historical status of claims to the cinematic * Retrogaming,
popping, speedruns, machinima, bitscene music * Curatorship and
exhibition of gaming history ? problems, opportunities, practices *
Family and gaming: playing across generations * Globalisation and the
uneven distribution of gaming?s generations * E-waste and the
unrecognised costs of generational change

The issue is open to papers that go beyond these suggestions, and the
editors encourage any innovative approach linking the topics of gaming
and generations.

All articles undergo a double blind peer review process except for
papers submitted to the game review section. We expect all submissions
to be in English and accept full papers only. For further
specificiations about our submission guidelines please consult
http://www.eludamos.org. Submissions for ?Next Gen? should go to the
Perspectives section of the site.
Important dates

1st of August: submission deadline for the upcoming regular issue of
Eludamos, as well as the special issue ?Next Gen?. Submissions should
be full papers plus abstracts and bio.

25th of Oct. 2009: publication date

We look forward to reading from you soon! Please address any queries
and questions specifically regarding the Next Gen special issue to
Darshana Jayemanne at escapismvelocity at gmail.


--
Beth Aileen Lameman | http://www.bethaileen.com
Aboriginal Territories in Cyberspace | http://www.abtec.org
Simon Fraser University - SIAT PhD Student | http://siat.sfu.ca

| msn: beth at bethaileen.com | aim: zele |
| yahoo: bethaileenlameman | skype: bethaileenlamema

-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk  Tue Jul 14 04:57:30 2009
From: Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk (Dan Pinchbeck)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:57:30 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] New version of the DiGRA paper
Message-ID: <4A5C568A020000B500093EB1@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>

Hi all

Feeling slightly stupid now - went back to redraft and realised I'd uploaded the wrong thing. Right... here's a new version:

www.thechineseroom.co.uk/DIGRA.docx

Any comments etc, obviously great. If anyone wants to sort out the author list and double-check the references list, that'd be particularly wonderful

cheers 

dan

Dr Dan Pinchbeck

Advanced Games Research Group
School of Creative Technologies
University of Portsmouth, UK

www.thechineseroom.co.uk
www.keep.port.ac.uk

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Fri Jul 17 14:02:11 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 19:02:11 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] CFP: Curatorship and exhibition of gaming
 history (Next Gen; deadline 	Aug 1)
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50907110651k6d75b4a3o6af1c0e5e95ee0ad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9d1cf2d50907110651k6d75b4a3o6af1c0e5e95ee0ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A60BCA3.1070503@aarmstrong.org>

Neat, so, will someone from this list be contributing then? :)

Andrew

Devin Monnens wrote:
> Forwarded from Beth A Lameman
>
>     I noticed that Eludamos
>     has a section on "Curatorship and exhibition of gaming history --
>     problems, opportunities, practices" in its upcoming Special Issue
>
>     aka Beth A. Dillon
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Beth Aileen Lameman <beth at bethaileen.com 
> <mailto:beth at bethaileen.com>>
> Date: Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 9:44 AM
> Subject: CfP: Eludamos Journal Special Issue "Next Gen" (Due Aug 1)
> To: Magy Seif El-Nasr <magy at sfu.ca <mailto:magy at sfu.ca>>
>
>
> CfP: Eludamos Journal Special Issue "Next Gen"
> Due August 1, 2009
>
> Call for a special issue of Eludamos, titled: "Next Gen."
>
> Guest editors are Thomas J. Apperley, Darshana Jayemanne and Christian 
> McCrea.
>
> Console gaming has already had more than one 'Next Generation'. PC
> gamers feverishly upgrade their rigs with each new state of the art
> FPS. Periodisation is often a major preoccupation for critics and
> publics interested in other media, but in the case of videogames the
> rapid pace of technical development seems to set the agenda of
> generational change. Games are caught up, culturally as well as
> aesthetically and technically, in their own futurism: each generation
> claims to be both anticipation and fulfillment of an imagined horizon
> of experience. Simultaneously, older technologies find new uses and
> contexts within the very conditions of their supposed obsolescence.
> Gaming is constantly speculating on its own future and recalling its
> past in order to coordinate a restless present. Just how coherent are
> gaming's generations, and is the adoption of such classifications from
> the wider culture useful or counter-productive for academic game
> studies?
>
> This special issue of Eludamos invites essays on the topic of
> generational change in gaming, from broad overviews of the critical
> usefulness of 'official' Next Generations to microhistories of
> individual game franchises or lineages, from agenda-setting successes
> to failed attempts that were too soon, too late, or just too bad.
> Possible avenues of exploration may include:
> * The New Games journalism, advertising, hype and style in the gaming
> press * Generational change in academia: Do we need a new Game
> Studies? * Materiality: Histories of specific devices, console design
> and futurism. * Audio and graphical standards and the historical
> status of claims to the realistic * Audio and graphical standards and
> the historical status of claims to the cinematic * Retrogaming,
> popping, speedruns, machinima, bitscene music * Curatorship and
> exhibition of gaming history -- problems, opportunities, practices *
> Family and gaming: playing across generations * Globalisation and the
> uneven distribution of gaming's generations * E-waste and the
> unrecognised costs of generational change
>
> The issue is open to papers that go beyond these suggestions, and the
> editors encourage any innovative approach linking the topics of gaming
> and generations.
>
> All articles undergo a double blind peer review process except for
> papers submitted to the game review section. We expect all submissions
> to be in English and accept full papers only. For further
> specificiations about our submission guidelines please consult
> http://www.eludamos.org. Submissions for "Next Gen" should go to the
> Perspectives section of the site.
> Important dates
>
> 1st of August: submission deadline for the upcoming regular issue of
> Eludamos, as well as the special issue "Next Gen". Submissions should
> be full papers plus abstracts and bio.
>
> 25th of Oct. 2009: publication date
>
> We look forward to reading from you soon! Please address any queries
> and questions specifically regarding the Next Gen special issue to
> Darshana Jayemanne at escapismvelocity at gmail.
>
>
> --
> Beth Aileen Lameman | http://www.bethaileen.com
> Aboriginal Territories in Cyberspace | http://www.abtec.org
> Simon Fraser University - SIAT PhD Student | http://siat.sfu.ca
>
> | msn: beth at bethaileen.com <mailto:beth at bethaileen.com> | aim: zele |
> | yahoo: bethaileenlameman | skype: bethaileenlamema
>
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Fri Jul 17 14:03:12 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 19:03:12 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] New version of the DiGRA paper
In-Reply-To: <4A5C568A020000B500093EB1@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
References: <4A5C568A020000B500093EB1@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <4A60BCE0.8090001@aarmstrong.org>

Since it's docx I'm afraid I can't open this at home, so I'll check it 
at work on Monday. :) (been off this week).

Andrew

Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
> Hi all
>
> Feeling slightly stupid now - went back to redraft and realised I'd uploaded the wrong thing. Right... here's a new version:
>
> www.thechineseroom.co.uk/DIGRA.docx
>
> Any comments etc, obviously great. If anyone wants to sort out the author list and double-check the references list, that'd be particularly wonderful
>
> cheers 
>
> dan
>
> Dr Dan Pinchbeck
>
> Advanced Games Research Group
> School of Creative Technologies
> University of Portsmouth, UK
>
> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
> www.keep.port.ac.uk
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

From donahrm at gmail.com  Fri Jul 17 14:16:22 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:16:22 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] CFP: Curatorship and exhibition of gaming
 history (Next Gen; deadline 	Aug 1)
In-Reply-To: <4A60BCA3.1070503@aarmstrong.org>
References: <9d1cf2d50907110651k6d75b4a3o6af1c0e5e95ee0ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A60BCA3.1070503@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <op.uw741kokfmh8gn@sherpa>

I'm somewhat amused that you replied exactly while I was reading the CFP.

If the deadline weren't 8/1, I'd be tempted.

On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:02:11 -0400, Andrew Armstrong  
<andrew at aarmstrong.org> wrote:

> Neat, so, will someone from this list be contributing then? :)
>
> Andrew
>
> Devin Monnens wrote:
>> Forwarded from Beth A Lameman
>>
>>     I noticed that Eludamos
>>     has a section on "Curatorship and exhibition of gaming history --
>>     problems, opportunities, practices" in its upcoming Special Issue
>>
>>     aka Beth A. Dillon
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Beth Aileen Lameman <beth at bethaileen.com
>> <mailto:beth at bethaileen.com>>
>> Date: Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 9:44 AM
>> Subject: CfP: Eludamos Journal Special Issue "Next Gen" (Due Aug 1)
>> To: Magy Seif El-Nasr <magy at sfu.ca <mailto:magy at sfu.ca>>
>>
>>
>> CfP: Eludamos Journal Special Issue "Next Gen"
>> Due August 1, 2009
>>
>> Call for a special issue of Eludamos, titled: "Next Gen."
>>
>> Guest editors are Thomas J. Apperley, Darshana Jayemanne and Christian
>> McCrea.
>>
>> Console gaming has already had more than one 'Next Generation'. PC
>> gamers feverishly upgrade their rigs with each new state of the art
>> FPS. Periodisation is often a major preoccupation for critics and
>> publics interested in other media, but in the case of videogames the
>> rapid pace of technical development seems to set the agenda of
>> generational change. Games are caught up, culturally as well as
>> aesthetically and technically, in their own futurism: each generation
>> claims to be both anticipation and fulfillment of an imagined horizon
>> of experience. Simultaneously, older technologies find new uses and
>> contexts within the very conditions of their supposed obsolescence.
>> Gaming is constantly speculating on its own future and recalling its
>> past in order to coordinate a restless present. Just how coherent are
>> gaming's generations, and is the adoption of such classifications from
>> the wider culture useful or counter-productive for academic game
>> studies?
>>
>> This special issue of Eludamos invites essays on the topic of
>> generational change in gaming, from broad overviews of the critical
>> usefulness of 'official' Next Generations to microhistories of
>> individual game franchises or lineages, from agenda-setting successes
>> to failed attempts that were too soon, too late, or just too bad.
>> Possible avenues of exploration may include:
>> * The New Games journalism, advertising, hype and style in the gaming
>> press * Generational change in academia: Do we need a new Game
>> Studies? * Materiality: Histories of specific devices, console design
>> and futurism. * Audio and graphical standards and the historical
>> status of claims to the realistic * Audio and graphical standards and
>> the historical status of claims to the cinematic * Retrogaming,
>> popping, speedruns, machinima, bitscene music * Curatorship and
>> exhibition of gaming history -- problems, opportunities, practices *
>> Family and gaming: playing across generations * Globalisation and the
>> uneven distribution of gaming's generations * E-waste and the
>> unrecognised costs of generational change
>>
>> The issue is open to papers that go beyond these suggestions, and the
>> editors encourage any innovative approach linking the topics of gaming
>> and generations.
>>
>> All articles undergo a double blind peer review process except for
>> papers submitted to the game review section. We expect all submissions
>> to be in English and accept full papers only. For further
>> specificiations about our submission guidelines please consult
>> http://www.eludamos.org. Submissions for "Next Gen" should go to the
>> Perspectives section of the site.
>> Important dates
>>
>> 1st of August: submission deadline for the upcoming regular issue of
>> Eludamos, as well as the special issue "Next Gen". Submissions should
>> be full papers plus abstracts and bio.
>>
>> 25th of Oct. 2009: publication date
>>
>> We look forward to reading from you soon! Please address any queries
>> and questions specifically regarding the Next Gen special issue to
>> Darshana Jayemanne at escapismvelocity at gmail.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Beth Aileen Lameman | http://www.bethaileen.com
>> Aboriginal Territories in Cyberspace | http://www.abtec.org
>> Simon Fraser University - SIAT PhD Student | http://siat.sfu.ca
>>
>> | msn: beth at bethaileen.com <mailto:beth at bethaileen.com> | aim: zele |
>> | yahoo: bethaileenlameman | skype: bethaileenlamema
>>
>> --
>> Devin Monnens
>> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>>
>> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>


-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

From bcain at criticalmassinteractive.com  Fri Jul 17 14:21:38 2009
From: bcain at criticalmassinteractive.com (Billy Cain)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:21:38 -0500
Subject: [game_preservation] New version of the DiGRA paper
In-Reply-To: <4A60BCE0.8090001@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A5C568A020000B500093EB1@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
	<4A60BCE0.8090001@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <4af27ce20907171121j6bfcc1fbl51423445308e5d7a@mail.gmail.com>

There is a free converter on Microsoft's site. :)

On 7/17/09, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org> wrote:
> Since it's docx I'm afraid I can't open this at home, so I'll check it
> at work on Monday. :) (been off this week).
>
> Andrew
>
> Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
>> Hi all
>>
>> Feeling slightly stupid now - went back to redraft and realised I'd
>> uploaded the wrong thing. Right... here's a new version:
>>
>> www.thechineseroom.co.uk/DIGRA.docx
>>
>> Any comments etc, obviously great. If anyone wants to sort out the author
>> list and double-check the references list, that'd be particularly
>> wonderful
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> dan
>>
>> Dr Dan Pinchbeck
>>
>> Advanced Games Research Group
>> School of Creative Technologies
>> University of Portsmouth, UK
>>
>> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
>> www.keep.port.ac.uk
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>

-- 
Sent from my mobile device

Billy Cain
Geek / Catalyst

http://twitter.com/billycain
http://www.facebook.com/billyjoecain
IGDA - Austin: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=55276414674

From dmonnens at gmail.com  Fri Jul 17 14:20:01 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:20:01 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] New version of the DiGRA paper
In-Reply-To: <4A60BCE0.8090001@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A5C568A020000B500093EB1@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
	<4A60BCE0.8090001@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50907171120h6e6470ffma110640e1067f41d@mail.gmail.com>

Agreed. Can we have the paper in .doc or .pdf format?
-Devin

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

> Since it's docx I'm afraid I can't open this at home, so I'll check it at
> work on Monday. :) (been off this week).
>
> Andrew
>
>
> Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> Feeling slightly stupid now - went back to redraft and realised I'd
>> uploaded the wrong thing. Right... here's a new version:
>>
>> www.thechineseroom.co.uk/DIGRA.docx
>>
>> Any comments etc, obviously great. If anyone wants to sort out the author
>> list and double-check the references list, that'd be particularly wonderful
>>
>> cheers
>> dan
>>
>> Dr Dan Pinchbeck
>>
>> Advanced Games Research Group
>> School of Creative Technologies
>> University of Portsmouth, UK
>>
>> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
>> www.keep.port.ac.uk
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>



-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Fri Jul 17 19:54:06 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 00:54:06 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] New version of the DiGRA paper
In-Reply-To: <4af27ce20907171121j6bfcc1fbl51423445308e5d7a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A5C568A020000B500093EB1@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>	<4A60BCE0.8090001@aarmstrong.org>
	<4af27ce20907171121j6bfcc1fbl51423445308e5d7a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A610F1E.2050209@aarmstrong.org>

I'll try and look at it tomorrow or Sunday then, zzzzz :)

Andrew

Billy Cain wrote:
> There is a free converter on Microsoft's site. :)
>
> On 7/17/09, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org> wrote:
>   
>> Since it's docx I'm afraid I can't open this at home, so I'll check it
>> at work on Monday. :) (been off this week).
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
>>     
>>> Hi all
>>>
>>> Feeling slightly stupid now - went back to redraft and realised I'd
>>> uploaded the wrong thing. Right... here's a new version:
>>>
>>> www.thechineseroom.co.uk/DIGRA.docx
>>>
>>> Any comments etc, obviously great. If anyone wants to sort out the author
>>> list and double-check the references list, that'd be particularly
>>> wonderful
>>>
>>> cheers
>>>
>>> dan
>>>
>>> Dr Dan Pinchbeck
>>>
>>> Advanced Games Research Group
>>> School of Creative Technologies
>>> University of Portsmouth, UK
>>>
>>> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
>>> www.keep.port.ac.uk
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>     
>
>   
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From melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au  Fri Jul 17 20:50:07 2009
From: melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au (Melanie Swalwell)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 10:20:07 +0930
Subject: [game_preservation] CFP: Curatorship and exhibition of gaming
 history (Next Gen; deadline 	Aug 1)
In-Reply-To: <op.uw741kokfmh8gn@sherpa>
References: <9d1cf2d50907110651k6d75b4a3o6af1c0e5e95ee0ad@mail.gmail.com>	<4A60BCA3.1070503@aarmstrong.org>
	<op.uw741kokfmh8gn@sherpa>
Message-ID: <4A611C3F.2060104@flinders.edu.au>

Christian McCrea, one of the editors of the issue, is on the list :)


Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
> I'm somewhat amused that you replied exactly while I was reading the CFP.
>
> If the deadline weren't 8/1, I'd be tempted.
>
> On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:02:11 -0400, Andrew Armstrong 
> <andrew at aarmstrong.org> wrote:
>
>> Neat, so, will someone from this list be contributing then? :)
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Devin Monnens wrote:
>>> Forwarded from Beth A Lameman
>>>
>>>     I noticed that Eludamos
>>>     has a section on "Curatorship and exhibition of gaming history --
>>>     problems, opportunities, practices" in its upcoming Special Issue
>>>
>>>     aka Beth A. Dillon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Beth Aileen Lameman <beth at bethaileen.com
>>> <mailto:beth at bethaileen.com>>
>>> Date: Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 9:44 AM
>>> Subject: CfP: Eludamos Journal Special Issue "Next Gen" (Due Aug 1)
>>> To: Magy Seif El-Nasr <magy at sfu.ca <mailto:magy at sfu.ca>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CfP: Eludamos Journal Special Issue "Next Gen"
>>> Due August 1, 2009
>>>
>>> Call for a special issue of Eludamos, titled: "Next Gen."
>>>
>>> Guest editors are Thomas J. Apperley, Darshana Jayemanne and Christian
>>> McCrea.
>>>
>>> Console gaming has already had more than one 'Next Generation'. PC
>>> gamers feverishly upgrade their rigs with each new state of the art
>>> FPS. Periodisation is often a major preoccupation for critics and
>>> publics interested in other media, but in the case of videogames the
>>> rapid pace of technical development seems to set the agenda of
>>> generational change. Games are caught up, culturally as well as
>>> aesthetically and technically, in their own futurism: each generation
>>> claims to be both anticipation and fulfillment of an imagined horizon
>>> of experience. Simultaneously, older technologies find new uses and
>>> contexts within the very conditions of their supposed obsolescence.
>>> Gaming is constantly speculating on its own future and recalling its
>>> past in order to coordinate a restless present. Just how coherent are
>>> gaming's generations, and is the adoption of such classifications from
>>> the wider culture useful or counter-productive for academic game
>>> studies?
>>>
>>> This special issue of Eludamos invites essays on the topic of
>>> generational change in gaming, from broad overviews of the critical
>>> usefulness of 'official' Next Generations to microhistories of
>>> individual game franchises or lineages, from agenda-setting successes
>>> to failed attempts that were too soon, too late, or just too bad.
>>> Possible avenues of exploration may include:
>>> * The New Games journalism, advertising, hype and style in the gaming
>>> press * Generational change in academia: Do we need a new Game
>>> Studies? * Materiality: Histories of specific devices, console design
>>> and futurism. * Audio and graphical standards and the historical
>>> status of claims to the realistic * Audio and graphical standards and
>>> the historical status of claims to the cinematic * Retrogaming,
>>> popping, speedruns, machinima, bitscene music * Curatorship and
>>> exhibition of gaming history -- problems, opportunities, practices *
>>> Family and gaming: playing across generations * Globalisation and the
>>> uneven distribution of gaming's generations * E-waste and the
>>> unrecognised costs of generational change
>>>
>>> The issue is open to papers that go beyond these suggestions, and the
>>> editors encourage any innovative approach linking the topics of gaming
>>> and generations.
>>>
>>> All articles undergo a double blind peer review process except for
>>> papers submitted to the game review section. We expect all submissions
>>> to be in English and accept full papers only. For further
>>> specificiations about our submission guidelines please consult
>>> http://www.eludamos.org. Submissions for "Next Gen" should go to the
>>> Perspectives section of the site.
>>> Important dates
>>>
>>> 1st of August: submission deadline for the upcoming regular issue of
>>> Eludamos, as well as the special issue "Next Gen". Submissions should
>>> be full papers plus abstracts and bio.
>>>
>>> 25th of Oct. 2009: publication date
>>>
>>> We look forward to reading from you soon! Please address any queries
>>> and questions specifically regarding the Next Gen special issue to
>>> Darshana Jayemanne at escapismvelocity at gmail.
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Beth Aileen Lameman | http://www.bethaileen.com
>>> Aboriginal Territories in Cyberspace | http://www.abtec.org
>>> Simon Fraser University - SIAT PhD Student | http://siat.sfu.ca
>>>
>>> | msn: beth at bethaileen.com <mailto:beth at bethaileen.com> | aim: zele |
>>> | yahoo: bethaileenlameman | skype: bethaileenlamema
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Devin Monnens
>>> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>>>
>>> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>
>
>

-- 
Dr Melanie Swalwell
Senior Lecturer, Screen and Media
& Course Coordinator, B. Media
Flinders University
GPO Box 2100
Adelaide SA 5001

125B Humanities Bldg

Ph: +61 8 8201 2619
Fax: +61 8 8201 3635

melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au


From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sat Jul 18 04:09:14 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 09:09:14 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] CFP: Curatorship and exhibition of gaming
 history (Next Gen; deadline 	Aug 1)
In-Reply-To: <4A611C3F.2060104@flinders.edu.au>
References: <9d1cf2d50907110651k6d75b4a3o6af1c0e5e95ee0ad@mail.gmail.com>	<4A60BCA3.1070503@aarmstrong.org>	<op.uw741kokfmh8gn@sherpa>
	<4A611C3F.2060104@flinders.edu.au>
Message-ID: <4A61832A.4080906@aarmstrong.org>

If they get any applicants, hopefully they'll mention this is the place 
to hang out and tell us about their entry, or to get some opinions on it :)

I wish I had the time to do something myself, although I don't have any 
research to present or opinions to put forward right now anyway, heh.

Andrew

Melanie Swalwell wrote:
> Christian McCrea, one of the editors of the issue, is on the list :)
>
>
> Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
>> I'm somewhat amused that you replied exactly while I was reading the 
>> CFP.
>>
>> If the deadline weren't 8/1, I'd be tempted.
>>
>> On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:02:11 -0400, Andrew Armstrong 
>> <andrew at aarmstrong.org> wrote:
>>
>

From Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk  Mon Jul 20 04:37:33 2009
From: Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk (Dan Pinchbeck)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 09:37:33 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] doc version of doc
Message-ID: <4A643ADD020000B5000947AF@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>

hi all

new version as 97-03 compatible doc file here:

www.thechineseroom.co.uk/IGDApaperforDIGRA.doc

thanks

dan

Dr Dan Pinchbeck

Advanced Games Research Group
School of Creative Technologies
University of Portsmouth, UK

www.thechineseroom.co.uk
www.keep.port.ac.uk

From Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk  Mon Jul 20 05:39:12 2009
From: Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk (Dan Pinchbeck)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 10:39:12 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Contact details?
Message-ID: <4A644950020000B5000947FB@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>

Hi all,

Anyone have an email address for Karsten Huth?

Thanks

Dan

Dr Dan Pinchbeck

Advanced Games Research Group
School of Creative Technologies
University of Portsmouth, UK

www.thechineseroom.co.uk
www.keep.port.ac.uk

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Mon Jul 20 06:18:56 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 11:18:56 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] doc version of doc
In-Reply-To: <4A643ADD020000B5000947AF@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
References: <4A643ADD020000B5000947AF@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <4A644490.60809@aarmstrong.org>

It says 404 not found? :)

Will be looking today/tonight, was busier then I expected at the weekend 
away from my PC.

Andrew

Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
> hi all
>
> new version as 97-03 compatible doc file here:
>
> www.thechineseroom.co.uk/IGDApaperforDIGRA.doc
>
> thanks
>
> dan
>
> Dr Dan Pinchbeck
>
> Advanced Games Research Group
> School of Creative Technologies
> University of Portsmouth, UK
>
> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
> www.keep.port.ac.uk
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

From Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk  Mon Jul 20 07:27:29 2009
From: Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk (Dan Pinchbeck)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 12:27:29 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] doc version of doc
Message-ID: <4A6462B1020000B50009484F@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>

Hmmm. Try now

Dr Dan Pinchbeck

Advanced Games Research Group
School of Creative Technologies
University of Portsmouth, UK

www.thechineseroom.co.uk
www.keep.port.ac.uk
>>> Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org> 20/07/09 11:20 AM >>>
It says 404 not found? :)

Will be looking today/tonight, was busier then I expected at the weekend 
away from my PC.

Andrew

Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
> hi all
>
> new version as 97-03 compatible doc file here:
>
> www.thechineseroom.co.uk/IGDApaperforDIGRA.doc
>
> thanks
>
> dan
>
> Dr Dan Pinchbeck
>
> Advanced Games Research Group
> School of Creative Technologies
> University of Portsmouth, UK
>
> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
> www.keep.port.ac.uk
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
_______________________________________________
game_preservation mailing list
game_preservation at igda.org
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation


From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Mon Jul 20 08:11:46 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:11:46 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] doc version of doc
In-Reply-To: <4A6462B1020000B50009484F@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
References: <4A6462B1020000B50009484F@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <4A645F02.8090008@aarmstrong.org>

Works, thanks, will be reviewing now :)

Andrew

Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
> Hmmm. Try now
>
> Dr Dan Pinchbeck
>
> Advanced Games Research Group
> School of Creative Technologies
> University of Portsmouth, UK
>
> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
> www.keep.port.ac.uk
>   
>>>> Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org> 20/07/09 11:20 AM >>>
>>>>         
> It says 404 not found? :)
>
> Will be looking today/tonight, was busier then I expected at the weekend 
> away from my PC.
>
> Andrew
>
> Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
>   
>> hi all
>>
>> new version as 97-03 compatible doc file here:
>>
>> www.thechineseroom.co.uk/IGDApaperforDIGRA.doc
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> dan
>>
>> Dr Dan Pinchbeck
>>
>> Advanced Games Research Group
>> School of Creative Technologies
>> University of Portsmouth, UK
>>
>> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
>> www.keep.port.ac.uk
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Mon Jul 20 15:29:25 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 20:29:25 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] doc version of doc
In-Reply-To: <4A6462B1020000B50009484F@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
References: <4A6462B1020000B50009484F@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <4A64C595.2090203@aarmstrong.org>

Feedback:

Page 1 - Not sure about "the specific threats to games are outlined," - 
shouldn't that be something like "the specific threats to preserving 
games are outlined," - since this isn't otherwise mentioned in that 
abstract.

Possibly will want to put "digital" before one of these mentions of 
"games" too, to be sure this is clear in the abstract. Board games, card 
games and so forth are a bit out of the remit (fascinating though they 
are), and it could be misinterpreted. Might want to put digital in the 
keywords search too, but I doubt this is important.

Page 2 - Not sure about the footnote, since it is the only one in the 
text - is it worth sourcing something to be a proper reference?

Page 5 - the bullet points (at least in OpenOffice) are very much pushed 
to the right of the columns - making things a bit spread-y - might be 
worth putting them all the way to the left (decreasing the indent).

Page 7 - small thing, Playstation -> PlayStation, Sony is pretty fussy 
on this ;) - it also doesn't mention the Xbox store, but two examples is 
enough for sure.

Looks well edited otherwise - there are a few small things (too many 
commas possibly in some sentences) which are more up to how you want it 
to be read, rather then how correct it is.

As for who did it, author list, apart from yourself there is the ones 
mentioned on this page:

http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_Paper/Before_It%27s_Too_Late:_A_Digital_Game_Preservation_White_Paper

I don't know if you need editors, but the main authors are listed there.

If you need me to re-read it, give me a shout.

Thanks!

Andrew

From Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk  Tue Jul 21 04:27:42 2009
From: Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk (Dan Pinchbeck)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 09:27:42 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] doc version of doc
Message-ID: <4A658A0E020000B5000949E0@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>

Hi Andrew (and everyone)

Excellent, thanks for that. Will revise today. The deadline is 1st August, so if there are any other bits of feedback from anyone and they can get me them this week, I'll make changes.

Author list:

I'm not too worried about my place on this (will probably smuggle in at the end) as I wasn't involved in the actual writing of the majority of it, so will drop in the authors list from the link. If there are any acknowledgements that need to be made, please let me know and I'll drop them in to the end of the paper too.

Cheers

Dan

Dr Dan Pinchbeck

Advanced Games Research Group
School of Creative Technologies
University of Portsmouth, UK

www.thechineseroom.co.uk
www.keep.port.ac.uk

From Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk  Tue Jul 21 05:05:13 2009
From: Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk (Dan Pinchbeck)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:05:13 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] doc version of doc
Message-ID: <4A6592D9020000B500094A08@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>

Another question on the paper for everyone involved as an author - it would make things easier to list all authors under a single 'organisation' - i.e. the IGDA SIG, giving the email contact as this list address. 

Can people confirm with me they are happy with that. I can technically put everyone down in their seperate institutions, but it's going to look v. messy...

Thanks

Dan

Dr Dan Pinchbeck

Advanced Games Research Group
School of Creative Technologies
University of Portsmouth, UK

www.thechineseroom.co.uk
www.keep.port.ac.uk
>>> Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org> 20/07/09 8:32 PM >>>
Feedback:

Page 1 - Not sure about "the specific threats to games are outlined," - 
shouldn't that be something like "the specific threats to preserving 
games are outlined," - since this isn't otherwise mentioned in that 
abstract.

Possibly will want to put "digital" before one of these mentions of 
"games" too, to be sure this is clear in the abstract. Board games, card 
games and so forth are a bit out of the remit (fascinating though they 
are), and it could be misinterpreted. Might want to put digital in the 
keywords search too, but I doubt this is important.

Page 2 - Not sure about the footnote, since it is the only one in the 
text - is it worth sourcing something to be a proper reference?

Page 5 - the bullet points (at least in OpenOffice) are very much pushed 
to the right of the columns - making things a bit spread-y - might be 
worth putting them all the way to the left (decreasing the indent).

Page 7 - small thing, Playstation -> PlayStation, Sony is pretty fussy 
on this ;) - it also doesn't mention the Xbox store, but two examples is 
enough for sure.

Looks well edited otherwise - there are a few small things (too many 
commas possibly in some sentences) which are more up to how you want it 
to be read, rather then how correct it is.

As for who did it, author list, apart from yourself there is the ones 
mentioned on this page:

http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_Paper/Before_It%27s_Too_Late:_A_Digital_Game_Preservation_White_Paper

I don't know if you need editors, but the main authors are listed there.

If you need me to re-read it, give me a shout.

Thanks!

Andrew
_______________________________________________
game_preservation mailing list
game_preservation at igda.org
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation


From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Tue Jul 21 05:55:48 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:55:48 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] doc version of doc
In-Reply-To: <4A6592D9020000B500094A08@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
References: <4A6592D9020000B500094A08@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <4A6590A4.7090800@aarmstrong.org>

This list might not even existing when the conference is on :) (so we 
hope). Putting preservation at igda.org goes to whoever is the current 
head, currently Henry, which should do in my opinion.

Not sure about the others though. :)

Andrew

Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
> Another question on the paper for everyone involved as an author - it would make things easier to list all authors under a single 'organisation' - i.e. the IGDA SIG, giving the email contact as this list address. 
>
> Can people confirm with me they are happy with that. I can technically put everyone down in their seperate institutions, but it's going to look v. messy...
>
> Thanks
>
> Dan

From dmonnens at gmail.com  Fri Jul 24 21:35:00 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 19:35:00 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] Old PC Game Sales for XP/Vista
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50907241835y1e32d421y2415ed72ed52f808@mail.gmail.com>

My friend just sent me this website that sells classic PC games for low
prices. I'm not sure how this relates to preservation, but it's great to see
a lot of the old titles still available. (Personally, I think some of the
prices should be lower though...)
http://www.gog.com/en/frontpage/

-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From donahrm at gmail.com  Fri Jul 24 22:32:56 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 22:32:56 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] Old PC Game Sales for XP/Vista
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50907241835y1e32d421y2415ed72ed52f808@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9d1cf2d50907241835y1e32d421y2415ed72ed52f808@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.uxlqo6o2fmh8gn@sherpa.westell.com>

There's also Steam :)
http://store.steampowered.com/

On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 21:35:00 -0400, Devin Monnens <dmonnens at gmail.com>  
wrote:

> My friend just sent me this website that sells classic PC games for low
> prices. I'm not sure how this relates to preservation, but it's great to  
> see
> a lot of the old titles still available. (Personally, I think some of the
> prices should be lower though...)
> http://www.gog.com/en/frontpage/
>



From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sat Jul 25 05:46:02 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:46:02 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Old PC Game Sales for XP/Vista
In-Reply-To: <op.uxlqo6o2fmh8gn@sherpa.westell.com>
References: <9d1cf2d50907241835y1e32d421y2415ed72ed52f808@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.uxlqo6o2fmh8gn@sherpa.westell.com>
Message-ID: <4A6AD45A.6030409@aarmstrong.org>

Man, no, not Steam, not for us preservationists! might as well suggest 
EA's download service, hoho...

I've got to seriously suggest we do a paper or some research on the use 
of online DRM and DRM in general and how it basically makes our jobs 
impossible. :D I was going to do a basic post/wiki page on it, but 
finding actual concrete information on what DRM is applied, company 
policy and so forth is nearly impossible - all the news is bloody vague, 
a nightmare for research on a topic no company wants to literally come 
out with "WE OWN THE RIGHT TO STOP YOU USING OUR STUFF IMMEDIATELY". I 
perhaps will suggest this as a project to investigate - and go out 
journalistic-ly with this SIG's backing to get some information on all 
the DRM currently used. :)

Good Old Games I featured on our news feed when it opened last year, by 
the way :) I've not had the chance to buy anything from it (I have tons 
of games left to play), but they are DRM free, which is awesome! I agree 
prices can be a bit heavy sometimes, but it looks like it'll be a good 
resource if it hangs around (and if it doesn't, anything you have 
downloaded won't magically go poof :) ).

BTW, if no one knows about it (and I'm trying to contact them, but man 
is it slow), Liberated Games still has a catalogue of free games: 
http://liberatedgames.org/

Andrew

Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
> There's also Steam :)
> http://store.steampowered.com/
>
> On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 21:35:00 -0400, Devin Monnens <dmonnens at gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>
>> My friend just sent me this website that sells classic PC games for low
>> prices. I'm not sure how this relates to preservation, but it's great 
>> to see
>> a lot of the old titles still available. (Personally, I think some of 
>> the
>> prices should be lower though...)
>> http://www.gog.com/en/frontpage/
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sat Jul 25 06:14:40 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:14:40 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Windows 7 and Virtual PC XP
Message-ID: <4A6ADB10.4050705@aarmstrong.org>

So I've pre-ordered Windows 7 so it's not rediculously-expensive, 
instead just man-thats-expensive. It does, it says, come with a virtual 
way of running apps in an XP environment (I got the Pro or whatever 
version, but not just for this).

I was wondering, since I don't have the RC installed, does this work at 
all for any kind of games, or is it purely just the XP API with no real 
driver support? I know VirtualPC which you can run OS's off is basically 
like running on a stripped down box with a generic CPU, some RAM and a 
hard drive, but no graphics or sound support to speak of. I don't know 
if it is the same way of doing it, simply more built-in to the OS?

I just know some games won't work with 7 (like Vista, since they run a 
very similar OS model), and virtulising XP might be a cure for that, but 
only if there is hardware support in it.

I think once I research this a bit more (since as on XP now, I have very 
few problems running older games) I'll get digging into WINE and also 
emulator projects (DOSBox is obvious, others that are starting to 
provide hardware support or 3d emulation are worth looking at too) and 
might gather some resources for our list (bibliography website still 
pending ;) ). If anyone has a list of these it'd be welcome, before I 
get a new PC and slam into the ground running on Vista SP3, I mean, 
Windows 7 ;)

Thanks!

Andrew

From donahrm at gmail.com  Sat Jul 25 11:37:20 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel Donahue)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:37:20 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] Old PC Game Sales for XP/Vista
In-Reply-To: <4A6AD45A.6030409@aarmstrong.org>
References: <9d1cf2d50907241835y1e32d421y2415ed72ed52f808@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.uxlqo6o2fmh8gn@sherpa.westell.com>
	<4A6AD45A.6030409@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <1C98F214-1620-4961-A7E0-0894A7920C81@gmail.com>

True, I wouldn't consider it preservation. But speaking purely as a  
gamer, it's still a decent place for a king's quest fix!

This message brought to you by the Sheepod.

On Jul 25, 2009, at 5:46 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>  
wrote:

> Man, no, not Steam, not for us preservationists! might as well  
> suggest EA's download service, hoho...
>
> I've got to seriously suggest we do a paper or some research on the  
> use of online DRM and DRM in general and how it basically makes our  
> jobs impossible. :D I was going to do a basic post/wiki page on it,  
> but finding actual concrete information on what DRM is applied,  
> company policy and so forth is nearly impossible - all the news is  
> bloody vague, a nightmare for research on a topic no company wants  
> to literally come out with "WE OWN THE RIGHT TO STOP YOU USING OUR  
> STUFF IMMEDIATELY". I perhaps will suggest this as a project to  
> investigate - and go out journalistic-ly with this SIG's backing to  
> get some information on all the DRM currently used. :)
>
> Good Old Games I featured on our news feed when it opened last year,  
> by the way :) I've not had the chance to buy anything from it (I  
> have tons of games left to play), but they are DRM free, which is  
> awesome! I agree prices can be a bit heavy sometimes, but it looks  
> like it'll be a good resource if it hangs around (and if it doesn't,  
> anything you have downloaded won't magically go poof :) ).
>
> BTW, if no one knows about it (and I'm trying to contact them, but  
> man is it slow), Liberated Games still has a catalogue of free  
> games: http://liberatedgames.org/
>
> Andrew
>
> Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
>> There's also Steam :)
>> http://store.steampowered.com/
>>
>> On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 21:35:00 -0400, Devin Monnens  
>> <dmonnens at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> My friend just sent me this website that sells classic PC games  
>>> for low
>>> prices. I'm not sure how this relates to preservation, but it's  
>>> great to see
>>> a lot of the old titles still available. (Personally, I think some  
>>> of the
>>> prices should be lower though...)
>>> http://www.gog.com/en/frontpage/
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sat Jul 25 13:31:29 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:31:29 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Old PC Game Sales for XP/Vista
In-Reply-To: <1C98F214-1620-4961-A7E0-0894A7920C81@gmail.com>
References: <9d1cf2d50907241835y1e32d421y2415ed72ed52f808@mail.gmail.com>	<op.uxlqo6o2fmh8gn@sherpa.westell.com>	<4A6AD45A.6030409@aarmstrong.org>
	<1C98F214-1620-4961-A7E0-0894A7920C81@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A6B4171.4010308@aarmstrong.org>

Yeah, sadly I'm tempted by LucasArts stuff being up on there. Ho hum :( 
(luckily I already have DoTT and Sam and Max :D ).

Andrew

Rachel Donahue wrote:
> True, I wouldn't consider it preservation. But speaking purely as a 
> gamer, it's still a decent place for a king's quest fix!
>
> This message brought to you by the Sheepod.
>
> On Jul 25, 2009, at 5:46 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org> 
> wrote:
>
>> Man, no, not Steam, not for us preservationists! might as well 
>> suggest EA's download service, hoho...
>>
>> I've got to seriously suggest we do a paper or some research on the 
>> use of online DRM and DRM in general and how it basically makes our 
>> jobs impossible. :D I was going to do a basic post/wiki page on it, 
>> but finding actual concrete information on what DRM is applied, 
>> company policy and so forth is nearly impossible - all the news is 
>> bloody vague, a nightmare for research on a topic no company wants to 
>> literally come out with "WE OWN THE RIGHT TO STOP YOU USING OUR STUFF 
>> IMMEDIATELY". I perhaps will suggest this as a project to investigate 
>> - and go out journalistic-ly with this SIG's backing to get some 
>> information on all the DRM currently used. :)
>>
>> Good Old Games I featured on our news feed when it opened last year, 
>> by the way :) I've not had the chance to buy anything from it (I have 
>> tons of games left to play), but they are DRM free, which is awesome! 
>> I agree prices can be a bit heavy sometimes, but it looks like it'll 
>> be a good resource if it hangs around (and if it doesn't, anything 
>> you have downloaded won't magically go poof :) ).
>>
>> BTW, if no one knows about it (and I'm trying to contact them, but 
>> man is it slow), Liberated Games still has a catalogue of free games: 
>> http://liberatedgames.org/
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
>>> There's also Steam :)
>>> http://store.steampowered.com/
>>>
>>> On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 21:35:00 -0400, Devin Monnens 
>>> <dmonnens at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My friend just sent me this website that sells classic PC games for 
>>>> low
>>>> prices. I'm not sure how this relates to preservation, but it's 
>>>> great to see
>>>> a lot of the old titles still available. (Personally, I think some 
>>>> of the
>>>> prices should be lower though...)
>>>> http://www.gog.com/en/frontpage/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

From lowood at stanford.edu  Sat Jul 25 13:59:15 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:59:15 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Windows 7 and Virtual PC XP
In-Reply-To: <4A6ADB10.4050705@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A6ADB10.4050705@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <4A6B47F3.2050504@stanford.edu>

Andrew,

the RIT team that is part of our Library of Congress has been testing 
not XP, but DOS compatibility, as we work on preservation of DOOM (among 
other games).   Andy Phelps from the RIT team concludes, "DOSBox on Win7 
is the best we can get on the modern OS's."  There were still issues 
with drivers.  I'm not sure how much you can conclude from this about 
XP, but it does address early games.

Henry

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> So I've pre-ordered Windows 7 so it's not rediculously-expensive, 
> instead just man-thats-expensive. It does, it says, come with a 
> virtual way of running apps in an XP environment (I got the Pro or 
> whatever version, but not just for this).
>
> I was wondering, since I don't have the RC installed, does this work 
> at all for any kind of games, or is it purely just the XP API with no 
> real driver support? I know VirtualPC which you can run OS's off is 
> basically like running on a stripped down box with a generic CPU, some 
> RAM and a hard drive, but no graphics or sound support to speak of. I 
> don't know if it is the same way of doing it, simply more built-in to 
> the OS?
>
> I just know some games won't work with 7 (like Vista, since they run a 
> very similar OS model), and virtulising XP might be a cure for that, 
> but only if there is hardware support in it.
>
> I think once I research this a bit more (since as on XP now, I have 
> very few problems running older games) I'll get digging into WINE and 
> also emulator projects (DOSBox is obvious, others that are starting to 
> provide hardware support or 3d emulation are worth looking at too) and 
> might gather some resources for our list (bibliography website still 
> pending ;) ). If anyone has a list of these it'd be welcome, before I 
> get a new PC and slam into the ground running on Vista SP3, I mean, 
> Windows 7 ;)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

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From dmonnens at gmail.com  Sat Jul 25 14:14:47 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:14:47 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] Windows 7 and Virtual PC XP
In-Reply-To: <4A6B47F3.2050504@stanford.edu>
References: <4A6ADB10.4050705@aarmstrong.org> <4A6B47F3.2050504@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50907251114o2ea6da19j23df25dacfa796dd@mail.gmail.com>

Henry,
Has there been any discussion in terms of universal virtual computers (UVCs)
and how you can create a universal test code to determine how accurately the
emulator is performing in relation to the original hardware?

-Devin

On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu> wrote:

>  Andrew,
>
> the RIT team that is part of our Library of Congress has been testing not
> XP, but DOS compatibility, as we work on preservation of DOOM (among other
> games).   Andy Phelps from the RIT team concludes, "DOSBox on Win7 is the
> best we can get on the modern OS's."  There were still issues with drivers.
> I'm not sure how much you can conclude from this about XP, but it does
> address early games.
>
> Henry
>
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>
> So I've pre-ordered Windows 7 so it's not rediculously-expensive, instead
> just man-thats-expensive. It does, it says, come with a virtual way of
> running apps in an XP environment (I got the Pro or whatever version, but
> not just for this).
>
> I was wondering, since I don't have the RC installed, does this work at all
> for any kind of games, or is it purely just the XP API with no real driver
> support? I know VirtualPC which you can run OS's off is basically like
> running on a stripped down box with a generic CPU, some RAM and a hard
> drive, but no graphics or sound support to speak of. I don't know if it is
> the same way of doing it, simply more built-in to the OS?
>
> I just know some games won't work with 7 (like Vista, since they run a very
> similar OS model), and virtulising XP might be a cure for that, but only if
> there is hardware support in it.
>
> I think once I research this a bit more (since as on XP now, I have very
> few problems running older games) I'll get digging into WINE and also
> emulator projects (DOSBox is obvious, others that are starting to provide
> hardware support or 3d emulation are worth looking at too) and might gather
> some resources for our list (bibliography website still pending ;) ). If
> anyone has a list of these it'd be welcome, before I get a new PC and slam
> into the ground running on Vista SP3, I mean, Windows 7 ;)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> --
> Henry Lowood
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>      Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library
> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USAhttp://www.stanford.edu/~lowoodlowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>


-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From dmonnens at gmail.com  Sat Jul 25 14:15:36 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:15:36 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] Old PC Game Sales for XP/Vista
In-Reply-To: <4A6B4171.4010308@aarmstrong.org>
References: <9d1cf2d50907241835y1e32d421y2415ed72ed52f808@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.uxlqo6o2fmh8gn@sherpa.westell.com>
	<4A6AD45A.6030409@aarmstrong.org>
	<1C98F214-1620-4961-A7E0-0894A7920C81@gmail.com>
	<4A6B4171.4010308@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50907251115w6de3b4cfx46079b679ce8f735@mail.gmail.com>

I haven't seen Full Throttle yet.
-Devin

On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

> Yeah, sadly I'm tempted by LucasArts stuff being up on there. Ho hum :(
> (luckily I already have DoTT and Sam and Max :D ).
>
> Andrew
>
>
> Rachel Donahue wrote:
>
>> True, I wouldn't consider it preservation. But speaking purely as a gamer,
>> it's still a decent place for a king's quest fix!
>>
>> This message brought to you by the Sheepod.
>>
>> On Jul 25, 2009, at 5:46 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Man, no, not Steam, not for us preservationists! might as well suggest
>>> EA's download service, hoho...
>>>
>>> I've got to seriously suggest we do a paper or some research on the use
>>> of online DRM and DRM in general and how it basically makes our jobs
>>> impossible. :D I was going to do a basic post/wiki page on it, but finding
>>> actual concrete information on what DRM is applied, company policy and so
>>> forth is nearly impossible - all the news is bloody vague, a nightmare for
>>> research on a topic no company wants to literally come out with "WE OWN THE
>>> RIGHT TO STOP YOU USING OUR STUFF IMMEDIATELY". I perhaps will suggest this
>>> as a project to investigate - and go out journalistic-ly with this SIG's
>>> backing to get some information on all the DRM currently used. :)
>>>
>>> Good Old Games I featured on our news feed when it opened last year, by
>>> the way :) I've not had the chance to buy anything from it (I have tons of
>>> games left to play), but they are DRM free, which is awesome! I agree prices
>>> can be a bit heavy sometimes, but it looks like it'll be a good resource if
>>> it hangs around (and if it doesn't, anything you have downloaded won't
>>> magically go poof :) ).
>>>
>>> BTW, if no one knows about it (and I'm trying to contact them, but man is
>>> it slow), Liberated Games still has a catalogue of free games:
>>> http://liberatedgames.org/
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
>>>
>>>> There's also Steam :)
>>>> http://store.steampowered.com/
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 21:35:00 -0400, Devin Monnens <dmonnens at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  My friend just sent me this website that sells classic PC games for low
>>>>> prices. I'm not sure how this relates to preservation, but it's great
>>>>> to see
>>>>> a lot of the old titles still available. (Personally, I think some of
>>>>> the
>>>>> prices should be lower though...)
>>>>> http://www.gog.com/en/frontpage/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>



-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From lowood at stanford.edu  Sat Jul 25 14:19:28 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:19:28 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Windows 7 and Virtual PC XP
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50907251114o2ea6da19j23df25dacfa796dd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A6ADB10.4050705@aarmstrong.org> <4A6B47F3.2050504@stanford.edu>
	<9d1cf2d50907251114o2ea6da19j23df25dacfa796dd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A6B4CB0.7020401@stanford.edu>

Devin,

Not as part of the preservation project's data-gathering.  It's possible 
that the RIT group is working in this area.  The RIT data that I have 
seen is a qualitative grid of performance tests.

Henry

Devin Monnens wrote:
> Henry,
>
> Has there been any discussion in terms of universal virtual computers 
> (UVCs) and how you can create a universal test code to determine how 
> accurately the emulator is performing in relation to the original 
> hardware?
>
> -Devin
>
> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu 
> <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>> wrote:
>
>     Andrew,
>
>     the RIT team that is part of our Library of Congress has been
>     testing not XP, but DOS compatibility, as we work on preservation
>     of DOOM (among other games).   Andy Phelps from the RIT team
>     concludes, "DOSBox on Win7 is the best we can get on the modern
>     OS's."  There were still issues with drivers.  I'm not sure how
>     much you can conclude from this about XP, but it does address
>     early games.
>
>     Henry
>
>
>     Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>     So I've pre-ordered Windows 7 so it's not rediculously-expensive,
>>     instead just man-thats-expensive. It does, it says, come with a
>>     virtual way of running apps in an XP environment (I got the Pro
>>     or whatever version, but not just for this).
>>
>>     I was wondering, since I don't have the RC installed, does this
>>     work at all for any kind of games, or is it purely just the XP
>>     API with no real driver support? I know VirtualPC which you can
>>     run OS's off is basically like running on a stripped down box
>>     with a generic CPU, some RAM and a hard drive, but no graphics or
>>     sound support to speak of. I don't know if it is the same way of
>>     doing it, simply more built-in to the OS?
>>
>>     I just know some games won't work with 7 (like Vista, since they
>>     run a very similar OS model), and virtulising XP might be a cure
>>     for that, but only if there is hardware support in it.
>>
>>     I think once I research this a bit more (since as on XP now, I
>>     have very few problems running older games) I'll get digging into
>>     WINE and also emulator projects (DOSBox is obvious, others that
>>     are starting to provide hardware support or 3d emulation are
>>     worth looking at too) and might gather some resources for our
>>     list (bibliography website still pending ;) ). If anyone has a
>>     list of these it'd be welcome, before I get a new PC and slam
>>     into the ground running on Vista SP3, I mean, Windows 7 ;)
>>
>>     Thanks!
>>
>>     Andrew
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>     -- 
>     Henry Lowood
>     Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>          Film & Media Collections
>     HRG, Green Library
>     557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
>     Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
>     http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>     lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 650-723-4602
>         
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

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From Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk  Sat Jul 25 14:22:13 2009
From: Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk (Dan Pinchbeck)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:22:13 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Windows 7 and Virtual PC XP
Message-ID: <4A6B5B65020000B5000951B3@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>

Hi Henry

That data sounds extremely interesting - I think our emulator people may be very keen to see it - do you know if it's public, or do you have a contact?

Thanks

Dan

Dr Dan Pinchbeck

Advanced Games Research Group
School of Creative Technologies
University of Portsmouth, UK

www.thechineseroom.co.uk
www.keep.port.ac.uk
>>> Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu> 25/07/09 7:20 PM >>>
Devin,

Not as part of the preservation project's data-gathering.  It's possible 
that the RIT group is working in this area.  The RIT data that I have 
seen is a qualitative grid of performance tests.

Henry

Devin Monnens wrote:
> Henry,
>
> Has there been any discussion in terms of universal virtual computers 
> (UVCs) and how you can create a universal test code to determine how 
> accurately the emulator is performing in relation to the original 
> hardware?
>
> -Devin
>
> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu 
> <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>> wrote:
>
>     Andrew,
>
>     the RIT team that is part of our Library of Congress has been
>     testing not XP, but DOS compatibility, as we work on preservation
>     of DOOM (among other games).   Andy Phelps from the RIT team
>     concludes, "DOSBox on Win7 is the best we can get on the modern
>     OS's."  There were still issues with drivers.  I'm not sure how
>     much you can conclude from this about XP, but it does address
>     early games.
>
>     Henry
>
>
>     Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>     So I've pre-ordered Windows 7 so it's not rediculously-expensive,
>>     instead just man-thats-expensive. It does, it says, come with a
>>     virtual way of running apps in an XP environment (I got the Pro
>>     or whatever version, but not just for this).
>>
>>     I was wondering, since I don't have the RC installed, does this
>>     work at all for any kind of games, or is it purely just the XP
>>     API with no real driver support? I know VirtualPC which you can
>>     run OS's off is basically like running on a stripped down box
>>     with a generic CPU, some RAM and a hard drive, but no graphics or
>>     sound support to speak of. I don't know if it is the same way of
>>     doing it, simply more built-in to the OS?
>>
>>     I just know some games won't work with 7 (like Vista, since they
>>     run a very similar OS model), and virtulising XP might be a cure
>>     for that, but only if there is hardware support in it.
>>
>>     I think once I research this a bit more (since as on XP now, I
>>     have very few problems running older games) I'll get digging into
>>     WINE and also emulator projects (DOSBox is obvious, others that
>>     are starting to provide hardware support or 3d emulation are
>>     worth looking at too) and might gather some resources for our
>>     list (bibliography website still pending ;) ). If anyone has a
>>     list of these it'd be welcome, before I get a new PC and slam
>>     into the ground running on Vista SP3, I mean, Windows 7 ;)
>>
>>     Thanks!
>>
>>     Andrew
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>     -- 
>     Henry Lowood
>     Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>          Film & Media Collections
>     HRG, Green Library
>     557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
>     Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
>     http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>     lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 650-723-4602
>         
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602



From lowood at stanford.edu  Sat Jul 25 14:41:26 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:41:26 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Old PC Game Sales for XP/Vista
In-Reply-To: <4A6AD45A.6030409@aarmstrong.org>
References: <9d1cf2d50907241835y1e32d421y2415ed72ed52f808@mail.gmail.com>	<op.uxlqo6o2fmh8gn@sherpa.westell.com>
	<4A6AD45A.6030409@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <4A6B51D6.7070604@stanford.edu>

Andrew,

GOG is also a download service.   I think DRM is an important issue, but 
from a preservation standpoint, we need to start (I think) with the 
original medium.  If what we are given is downloaded data, what 
information do we have on the source of the data?  Is it legal to 
distribute the titles in this fashion (for payment)? 

A propos DRM, see the recent articles on Amazon and their Kindle 
service.   Same problem.  It turns out that they are able to delete 
e-books (Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm) from devices after the sales.  A 
rights issue emerged, so they reached out and deleted the content (with 
a refund) from the Kindles of customers who had purchased those titles.  
In the U.S., printed books are governed by a first sale law that allows 
you to do pretty much anything with a printed book you buy, including 
reselling it.   With e-books, the purchase is governed by a license, 
which is a completely different situation, in the sense that the 
customer really does not own anything.

So, while it is nice that GOG does not engage in stealthy DRM practices, 
I would want to know more about where they get their data and what the 
terms of sale are.

Henry

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> Man, no, not Steam, not for us preservationists! might as well suggest 
> EA's download service, hoho...
>
> I've got to seriously suggest we do a paper or some research on the 
> use of online DRM and DRM in general and how it basically makes our 
> jobs impossible. :D I was going to do a basic post/wiki page on it, 
> but finding actual concrete information on what DRM is applied, 
> company policy and so forth is nearly impossible - all the news is 
> bloody vague, a nightmare for research on a topic no company wants to 
> literally come out with "WE OWN THE RIGHT TO STOP YOU USING OUR STUFF 
> IMMEDIATELY". I perhaps will suggest this as a project to investigate 
> - and go out journalistic-ly with this SIG's backing to get some 
> information on all the DRM currently used. :)
>
> Good Old Games I featured on our news feed when it opened last year, 
> by the way :) I've not had the chance to buy anything from it (I have 
> tons of games left to play), but they are DRM free, which is awesome! 
> I agree prices can be a bit heavy sometimes, but it looks like it'll 
> be a good resource if it hangs around (and if it doesn't, anything you 
> have downloaded won't magically go poof :) ).
>
> BTW, if no one knows about it (and I'm trying to contact them, but man 
> is it slow), Liberated Games still has a catalogue of free games: 
> http://liberatedgames.org/
>
> Andrew
>
> Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
>> There's also Steam :)
>> http://store.steampowered.com/
>>
>> On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 21:35:00 -0400, Devin Monnens 
>> <dmonnens at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> My friend just sent me this website that sells classic PC games for low
>>> prices. I'm not sure how this relates to preservation, but it's 
>>> great to see
>>> a lot of the old titles still available. (Personally, I think some 
>>> of the
>>> prices should be lower though...)
>>> http://www.gog.com/en/frontpage/
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

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From dmonnens at gmail.com  Sat Jul 25 15:04:44 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:04:44 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] Old PC Game Sales for XP/Vista
In-Reply-To: <4A6B51D6.7070604@stanford.edu>
References: <9d1cf2d50907241835y1e32d421y2415ed72ed52f808@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.uxlqo6o2fmh8gn@sherpa.westell.com>
	<4A6AD45A.6030409@aarmstrong.org> <4A6B51D6.7070604@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50907251204h7294fcb9ra0f5fc26f5b10709@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> So, while it is nice that GOG does not engage in stealthy DRM practices, I
> would want to know more about where they get their data and what the terms
> of sale are.
>

Check out this other website: http://www.magnatune.com/ They sell DRM-less
mp3s and FLACs. Here is their propaganda:

http://www.magnatune.com/info/whynotevil

-Devin
-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sat Jul 25 15:52:57 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 20:52:57 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Windows 7 and Virtual PC XP
In-Reply-To: <4A6B5B65020000B5000951B3@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
References: <4A6B5B65020000B5000951B3@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <4A6B6299.3080508@aarmstrong.org>

Yeah, sounds like some interesting information since, well, I'm sure I 
can get my old DOS disks working in Virtual PC or somesuch, which with 
what the power is on desktops right now, should be better then DOSBox - 
as it'd not emulate, but just virtualise the OS.

Shame that > Vista DOS is basically nil then. XP had no DOS really, so 
it'd not be too good for that. I was more referring to XP-only items - 
not that many exist, but a few games just are Vista-incompatible due to 
hardcoding problems and strange workarounds.

Andrew

Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
> Hi Henry
>
> That data sounds extremely interesting - I think our emulator people may be very keen to see it - do you know if it's public, or do you have a contact?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dan
>
> Dr Dan Pinchbeck
>
> Advanced Games Research Group
> School of Creative Technologies
> University of Portsmouth, UK
>
> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
> www.keep.port.ac.uk
>   
>>>> Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu> 25/07/09 7:20 PM >>>
>>>>         
> Devin,
>
> Not as part of the preservation project's data-gathering.  It's possible 
> that the RIT group is working in this area.  The RIT data that I have 
> seen is a qualitative grid of performance tests.
>
> Henry
>
> Devin Monnens wrote:
>   
>> Henry,
>>
>> Has there been any discussion in terms of universal virtual computers 
>> (UVCs) and how you can create a universal test code to determine how 
>> accurately the emulator is performing in relation to the original 
>> hardware?
>>
>> -Devin
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu 
>> <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>     Andrew,
>>
>>     the RIT team that is part of our Library of Congress has been
>>     testing not XP, but DOS compatibility, as we work on preservation
>>     of DOOM (among other games).   Andy Phelps from the RIT team
>>     concludes, "DOSBox on Win7 is the best we can get on the modern
>>     OS's."  There were still issues with drivers.  I'm not sure how
>>     much you can conclude from this about XP, but it does address
>>     early games.
>>
>>     Henry
>>
>>
>>     Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>     
>>>     So I've pre-ordered Windows 7 so it's not rediculously-expensive,
>>>     instead just man-thats-expensive. It does, it says, come with a
>>>     virtual way of running apps in an XP environment (I got the Pro
>>>     or whatever version, but not just for this).
>>>
>>>     I was wondering, since I don't have the RC installed, does this
>>>     work at all for any kind of games, or is it purely just the XP
>>>     API with no real driver support? I know VirtualPC which you can
>>>     run OS's off is basically like running on a stripped down box
>>>     with a generic CPU, some RAM and a hard drive, but no graphics or
>>>     sound support to speak of. I don't know if it is the same way of
>>>     doing it, simply more built-in to the OS?
>>>
>>>     I just know some games won't work with 7 (like Vista, since they
>>>     run a very similar OS model), and virtulising XP might be a cure
>>>     for that, but only if there is hardware support in it.
>>>
>>>     I think once I research this a bit more (since as on XP now, I
>>>     have very few problems running older games) I'll get digging into
>>>     WINE and also emulator projects (DOSBox is obvious, others that
>>>     are starting to provide hardware support or 3d emulation are
>>>     worth looking at too) and might gather some resources for our
>>>     list (bibliography website still pending ;) ). If anyone has a
>>>     list of these it'd be welcome, before I get a new PC and slam
>>>     into the ground running on Vista SP3, I mean, Windows 7 ;)
>>>
>>>     Thanks!
>>>
>>>     Andrew
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>       
>>     -- 
>>     Henry Lowood
>>     Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>          Film & Media Collections
>>     HRG, Green Library
>>     557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
>>     Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
>>     http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>     lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 650-723-4602
>>         
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Devin Monnens
>> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>>
>> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
>>     
>
>   
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From mike at multimedia.cx  Sat Jul 25 15:06:50 2009
From: mike at multimedia.cx (Mike Melanson)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:06:50 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Old PC Game Sales for XP/Vista
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50907241835y1e32d421y2415ed72ed52f808@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9d1cf2d50907241835y1e32d421y2415ed72ed52f808@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A6B57CA.80003@multimedia.cx>

Devin Monnens wrote:
> My friend just sent me this website that sells classic PC games for low 
> prices. I'm not sure how this relates to preservation, but it's great to 
> see a lot of the old titles still available. (Personally, I think some 
> of the prices should be lower though...)
> 
> http://www.gog.com/en/frontpage/

This is my favorite site for classic games:

http://ebay.com/

:) I clean up by basically buying old, obscure games by the pound.

-- 
     -Mike Melanson

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sat Jul 25 16:03:02 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 21:03:02 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Old PC Game Sales for XP/Vista
In-Reply-To: <4A6B51D6.7070604@stanford.edu>
References: <9d1cf2d50907241835y1e32d421y2415ed72ed52f808@mail.gmail.com>	<op.uxlqo6o2fmh8gn@sherpa.westell.com>	<4A6AD45A.6030409@aarmstrong.org>
	<4A6B51D6.7070604@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <4A6B64F6.6040306@aarmstrong.org>

Yep, I don't know enough about the service - if I did, I'd provide some 
info. As far as I know, they just repackage things from the publishers - 
thus the limited catalogue, because it's all needing that legal edge 
(some games I expect will never appear there). They're not original 
media - most are tuned with patches to work on XP onwards AFAIK.

Preservation needs the original media - so it'd be nice to investigate 
DRM regarding games released purely available either tied to more 
typical DRM (limited installs, disk checks on disks will will break, 
needing the manual, code wheels etc.), or those released purely using 
online methods or online DRM, tied to server architecture (slightly 
different, since the DRM cannot be ever worked around if the server 
simply isn't there!).

Kindle is a perfect example, as is the Microsoft DRM Music Store, which 
went offline, as well as multiplayer in games themselves when servers 
shut down with no alternatives available.

Newer examples include Command and Conquerer 4 announced as "always 
needing online play even in singleplayer" as with Starcraft 2's "cannot 
play off the internet (LAN) multiplayer", obviously made in the name of 
piracy, stat tracking and DRM.

Funny, really, since either people think these companies will existing 
in 20, 30 or 100 years to keep their servers running (at cost) to keep 
the DRM going, or that they'll release patches to remove DRM if they go 
bust (no they don't - testamount to allowing a firmware patch on a 
console to disable the "cannot be a copied disk" never being ever 
released ever), or that there will even be the internet as the game knew 
it in the future - we'll have to emulate IPv4 most likely, come the IPv6 
push (we already have to emulate IPX for certain games!), nevermind what 
happens far in the future, hehe.

So, I'll work on this at some point, some kind of information gathering 
- for preservationists to be aware of (with data if available), and try 
and get some info from the companies doing this kind of thing. I'm 
worried that "original media" will be pretty much "you need to connect 
constantly to the internet", which will make it nigh on impossible to 
preserve.

As for licences and selling and whatnot, I'm not a lawyer, but the 
companies seem to think they have it both ways - "selling" you something 
as well as "licensing" it. Most bizarre, sigh. (don't even get started 
on boilerplate and untested EULA's which stop many bits of preservation 
dead!).

Large area though, will need some work.

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> Andrew,
>
> GOG is also a download service.   I think DRM is an important issue, 
> but from a preservation standpoint, we need to start (I think) with 
> the original medium.  If what we are given is downloaded data, what 
> information do we have on the source of the data?  Is it legal to 
> distribute the titles in this fashion (for payment)? 
>
> A propos DRM, see the recent articles on Amazon and their Kindle 
> service.   Same problem.  It turns out that they are able to delete 
> e-books (Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm) from devices after the sales.  
> A rights issue emerged, so they reached out and deleted the content 
> (with a refund) from the Kindles of customers who had purchased those 
> titles.  In the U.S., printed books are governed by a first sale law 
> that allows you to do pretty much anything with a printed book you 
> buy, including reselling it.   With e-books, the purchase is governed 
> by a license, which is a completely different situation, in the sense 
> that the customer really does not own anything.
>
> So, while it is nice that GOG does not engage in stealthy DRM 
> practices, I would want to know more about where they get their data 
> and what the terms of sale are.
>
> Henry
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>> Man, no, not Steam, not for us preservationists! might as well 
>> suggest EA's download service, hoho...
>>
>> I've got to seriously suggest we do a paper or some research on the 
>> use of online DRM and DRM in general and how it basically makes our 
>> jobs impossible. :D I was going to do a basic post/wiki page on it, 
>> but finding actual concrete information on what DRM is applied, 
>> company policy and so forth is nearly impossible - all the news is 
>> bloody vague, a nightmare for research on a topic no company wants to 
>> literally come out with "WE OWN THE RIGHT TO STOP YOU USING OUR STUFF 
>> IMMEDIATELY". I perhaps will suggest this as a project to investigate 
>> - and go out journalistic-ly with this SIG's backing to get some 
>> information on all the DRM currently used. :)
>>
>> Good Old Games I featured on our news feed when it opened last year, 
>> by the way :) I've not had the chance to buy anything from it (I have 
>> tons of games left to play), but they are DRM free, which is awesome! 
>> I agree prices can be a bit heavy sometimes, but it looks like it'll 
>> be a good resource if it hangs around (and if it doesn't, anything 
>> you have downloaded won't magically go poof :) ).
>>
>> BTW, if no one knows about it (and I'm trying to contact them, but 
>> man is it slow), Liberated Games still has a catalogue of free games: 
>> http://liberatedgames.org/
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
>>> There's also Steam :)
>>> http://store.steampowered.com/
>>>
>>> On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 21:35:00 -0400, Devin Monnens 
>>> <dmonnens at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My friend just sent me this website that sells classic PC games for 
>>>> low
>>>> prices. I'm not sure how this relates to preservation, but it's 
>>>> great to see
>>>> a lot of the old titles still available. (Personally, I think some 
>>>> of the
>>>> prices should be lower though...)
>>>> http://www.gog.com/en/frontpage/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
> -- 
> Henry Lowood
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>      Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library
> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
> lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From aau at alum.mit.edu  Sun Jul 26 15:29:01 2009
From: aau at alum.mit.edu (Alan Au)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 15:29:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [game_preservation] =?utf-8?q?Old_PC_Game_Sales_for_XP/Vista?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCP?=
Message-ID: <27409539.2568.1248636541302.JavaMail.help@alum.mit.edu>

I know a fair bit about GOG.com, and the main appeal of their service is that when you buy a game from them, you own that copy outright.  They also 1. remove the copy protection and 2. guarantee compatibility with modern hardware.  The service is deliberately catering to the anti-DRM crowd, particularly after the "limited activation" fiascos with Bioshock and Mass Effect.  

While GOG.com isn't a replacement for preservation, it provides a valuable resource because of their focus on accessibility.  That is, original copies are important but runnable copies are important too.  The main shortcoming is that they focus on "popular PC classics."  Still, it might be worthwhile shooting off an email to Tom Ohle (their press guy) to see if/how they are archiving their stuff.  

LucasArts and Sierra released their old collections on Steam.  This is good but less than ideal (we're waiting to see if they show up on GOG).  For one thing, compatibility is a bit touch and go; I've been told the LucasArts stuff relies on the 3rd party ScummVM utility and that the Sierra stuff relies on DOSBox, although I haven't confirmed this myself.  In fact, the rumor is that the classic Sierra stuff was hastily released in response to the LucasArts announcement, a sort of "keeping up with the Joneses" move.

Then there's the Steam accessibility thing.  People aren't worried about Steam going away anytime soon, but that might change in 20 years.

So in summary, GOG.com has some pretty good policies regarding accessibility and ownership, but the selection is limited.  As for Steam stuff, caveat emptor.

- Alan

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Mon Jul 27 04:27:46 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:27:46 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] =?utf-8?q?Old_PC_Game_Sales_for_XP/Vista?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCP?=
In-Reply-To: <27409539.2568.1248636541302.JavaMail.help@alum.mit.edu>
References: <27409539.2568.1248636541302.JavaMail.help@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4A6D6502.9050007@aarmstrong.org>

Thanks for the info, I'll keep the press guy in mind if I need to 
investigate it more. I'm going to think how best to research this area, 
GoG isn't a replacement, but it helps if you want people to play the 
games in the future (not just through museum loans or something equally 
as limited).

Andrew

Alan Au wrote:
> I know a fair bit about GOG.com, and the main appeal of their service is that when you buy a game from them, you own that copy outright.  They also 1. remove the copy protection and 2. guarantee compatibility with modern hardware.  The service is deliberately catering to the anti-DRM crowd, particularly after the "limited activation" fiascos with Bioshock and Mass Effect.  
>
> While GOG.com isn't a replacement for preservation, it provides a valuable resource because of their focus on accessibility.  That is, original copies are important but runnable copies are important too.  The main shortcoming is that they focus on "popular PC classics."  Still, it might be worthwhile shooting off an email to Tom Ohle (their press guy) to see if/how they are archiving their stuff.  
>
> LucasArts and Sierra released their old collections on Steam.  This is good but less than ideal (we're waiting to see if they show up on GOG).  For one thing, compatibility is a bit touch and go; I've been told the LucasArts stuff relies on the 3rd party ScummVM utility and that the Sierra stuff relies on DOSBox, although I haven't confirmed this myself.  In fact, the rumor is that the classic Sierra stuff was hastily released in response to the LucasArts announcement, a sort of "keeping up with the Joneses" move.
>
> Then there's the Steam accessibility thing.  People aren't worried about Steam going away anytime soon, but that might change in 20 years.
>
> So in summary, GOG.com has some pretty good policies regarding accessibility and ownership, but the selection is limited.  As for Steam stuff, caveat emptor.
>
> - Alan
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From lowood at stanford.edu  Mon Jul 27 12:14:53 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:14:53 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] =?utf-8?q?Old_PC_Game_Sales_for_XP/Vista?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCP?=
In-Reply-To: <27409539.2568.1248636541302.JavaMail.help@alum.mit.edu>
References: <27409539.2568.1248636541302.JavaMail.help@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4A6DD27D.1040004@stanford.edu>

Alan,

More power to GOG.com, but in the U.S. removing copy protection and 
distributing for payment is almost certainly a violation of DMCA.  There 
was an exemption for cultural institutions if the original medium was 
associated with an "obsolete" platform, but that has expired, I believe. 

And, of course, removing copy protection means the software has been 
"hacked" to some degree, so it's not the original version of the 
software.   Likewise, I would think, the "guarantee" of hardware 
compatibility points to a possible alteration of the software.

So, yes, accessibility is very important for the current generation.  
This is not a long-term preservation solution, but the DRM issues are 
significant, and it is interesting to see how GOG is tackling that problem.

Henry

Alan Au wrote:
> I know a fair bit about GOG.com, and the main appeal of their service is that when you buy a game from them, you own that copy outright.  They also 1. remove the copy protection and 2. guarantee compatibility with modern hardware.  The service is deliberately catering to the anti-DRM crowd, particularly after the "limited activation" fiascos with Bioshock and Mass Effect.  
>
> While GOG.com isn't a replacement for preservation, it provides a valuable resource because of their focus on accessibility.  That is, original copies are important but runnable copies are important too.  The main shortcoming is that they focus on "popular PC classics."  Still, it might be worthwhile shooting off an email to Tom Ohle (their press guy) to see if/how they are archiving their stuff.  
>
> LucasArts and Sierra released their old collections on Steam.  This is good but less than ideal (we're waiting to see if they show up on GOG).  For one thing, compatibility is a bit touch and go; I've been told the LucasArts stuff relies on the 3rd party ScummVM utility and that the Sierra stuff relies on DOSBox, although I haven't confirmed this myself.  In fact, the rumor is that the classic Sierra stuff was hastily released in response to the LucasArts announcement, a sort of "keeping up with the Joneses" move.
>
> Then there's the Steam accessibility thing.  People aren't worried about Steam going away anytime soon, but that might change in 20 years.
>
> So in summary, GOG.com has some pretty good policies regarding accessibility and ownership, but the selection is limited.  As for Steam stuff, caveat emptor.
>
> - Alan
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Mon Jul 27 12:40:03 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 17:40:03 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] =?utf-8?q?Old_PC_Game_Sales_for_XP/Vista?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCP?=
In-Reply-To: <4A6DD27D.1040004@stanford.edu>
References: <27409539.2568.1248636541302.JavaMail.help@alum.mit.edu>
	<4A6DD27D.1040004@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <4A6DD863.2000807@aarmstrong.org>

As far as I've read, it is them working with the IP holders - usually 
publishers, and getting the code/game from them, just like any retro 
range ("Sold Out" in the UK for instance, although that's more just 
cheap reboxed copies).

Since the publishers obviously still want to make some money from it, I 
doubt it's going to be anything they'd give up for making copies 
available for free and available to archives, museums, libraries or 
anything else :(

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> Alan,
>
> More power to GOG.com, but in the U.S. removing copy protection and 
> distributing for payment is almost certainly a violation of DMCA.  
> There was an exemption for cultural institutions if the original 
> medium was associated with an "obsolete" platform, but that has 
> expired, I believe. 
>
> And, of course, removing copy protection means the software has been 
> "hacked" to some degree, so it's not the original version of the 
> software.   Likewise, I would think, the "guarantee" of hardware 
> compatibility points to a possible alteration of the software.
>
> So, yes, accessibility is very important for the current generation.  
> This is not a long-term preservation solution, but the DRM issues are 
> significant, and it is interesting to see how GOG is tackling that 
> problem.
>
> Henry
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From mike at multimedia.cx  Tue Jul 28 01:20:24 2009
From: mike at multimedia.cx (Mike Melanson)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 22:20:24 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
Message-ID: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>

As if preservationists didn't have enough to worry about already...

I have been studying iPhone apps (and games, specifically) pretty 
carefully recently. In doing so, I realized that certain games used to 
be available but have apparently vanished from the App Store, probably 
forever. Quite a daunting challenge considering the single gatekeeper 
aspect.

Sure, there's the question of whether most of these iPhone games are 
worth preserving in the first place.

-- 
     -Mike Melanson

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Tue Jul 28 04:54:55 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 09:54:55 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>
Message-ID: <4A6EBCDF.1070709@aarmstrong.org>

No doubt Apple keeps and is able to archive copies themselves (since 
they do hold the keys). No doubt they'd need contacting to get an answer 
out about preserving the applications on there, the question on if 
they'd want to do anything (even signing an agreement to archive them in 
the future), is beyond me.

I think the iPhone has plenty of things that need preserving - not just 
games mind you - along with other more open and more closed platforms. 
The mobile space has barely been scratched regarding preservation AFAIK, 
basically because it's impossible to actually get the original files for 
those platforms (tough luck trying to get backups usually), or get them 
at any reasonable non-contract price on a device which will last more 
then a few years (without any way of revocation of software from the 
original parties!), and also phones ware out so fast compared to other 
hardware, without a way to transfer material between them easily usually 
- SD cards luckily help I guess with this :)

Certainly a problem :( Much like how, for instance, the PSPGo is going 
all download-only, a similar style to the iPhone etc. (but with less 
content and more gatekeeping mind you).

Andrew

Mike Melanson wrote:
> As if preservationists didn't have enough to worry about already...
>
> I have been studying iPhone apps (and games, specifically) pretty 
> carefully recently. In doing so, I realized that certain games used to 
> be available but have apparently vanished from the App Store, probably 
> forever. Quite a daunting challenge considering the single gatekeeper 
> aspect.
>
> Sure, there's the question of whether most of these iPhone games are 
> worth preserving in the first place.
>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Tue Jul 28 05:44:00 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:44:00 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A6EBCDF.1070709@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx> <4A6EBCDF.1070709@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <4A6EC860.2000103@aarmstrong.org>

Oh, humorously, we won't have to worry about windows mobile games, since 
so many are banned from being made on it:

http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/07/27/windows-mobile-games-you-cant-have/

Hehehe :)

Andrew

From mike at multimedia.cx  Tue Jul 28 09:19:32 2009
From: mike at multimedia.cx (Mike Melanson)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 06:19:32 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A6EC860.2000103@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx> <4A6EBCDF.1070709@aarmstrong.org>
	<4A6EC860.2000103@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <4A6EFAE4.9000008@multimedia.cx>

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> Oh, humorously, we won't have to worry about windows mobile games, since 
> so many are banned from being made on it:
> 
> http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/07/27/windows-mobile-games-you-cant-have/
> 
> Hehehe :)

Reminds me of the hoops LucasArts had to jump through to get Maniac 
Mansion ported to the 8-bit NES:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.04/nintendo_pr.html

They had lots of bizarre guidelines as well and it was easy to come up 
with numerous examples that violated those guidelines.

-- 
     -Mike Melanson

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Tue Jul 28 09:24:06 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 14:24:06 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A6EFAE4.9000008@multimedia.cx>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>
	<4A6EBCDF.1070709@aarmstrong.org>	<4A6EC860.2000103@aarmstrong.org>
	<4A6EFAE4.9000008@multimedia.cx>
Message-ID: <4A6EFBF6.2040107@aarmstrong.org>

Oh, the joys of reading up on the Nintendo Seal of Approval rubbish! I 
remember reading the Maniac Mansion one, and reading up more on what was 
left in the code and what changed, fascinating if only in a "watching a 
crime scene" kind of way. The Microsoft guidelines did remind me of that 
era, haha!

Nowadays of course, the console makers just slap a "Can't be AO rated by 
the ESRB" as the main guideline...I wonder what the iPhone one is like 
actually.

Andrew

From mike at multimedia.cx  Tue Jul 28 09:24:23 2009
From: mike at multimedia.cx (Mike Melanson)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 06:24:23 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A6EBCDF.1070709@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx> <4A6EBCDF.1070709@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <4A6EFC07.9010104@multimedia.cx>

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> I think the iPhone has plenty of things that need preserving - not just 
> games mind you - along with other more open and more closed platforms. 
> The mobile space has barely been scratched regarding preservation AFAIK, 
> basically because it's impossible to actually get the original files for 
> those platforms (tough luck trying to get backups usually), or get them 
> at any reasonable non-contract price on a device which will last more 
> then a few years (without any way of revocation of software from the 
> original parties!), and also phones ware out so fast compared to other 
> hardware, without a way to transfer material between them easily usually 
> - SD cards luckily help I guess with this :)

Preserving iPhone apps once they're downloaded is not that difficult. I 
have already effectively preserved everything I have purchased and 
downloaded. The apps are downloaded individually to my computer and I 
can easily view their location in the filesystem and copy them elsewhere 
for backup. They're just standard ZIP files with .ipa extensions. The 
contents can be anything but often contain standard media assets 
(JPG/PNG image files, CAF audio files, MP4 media files).

-- 
     -Mike Melanson

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Tue Jul 28 09:28:26 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 14:28:26 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A6EFC07.9010104@multimedia.cx>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx> <4A6EBCDF.1070709@aarmstrong.org>
	<4A6EFC07.9010104@multimedia.cx>
Message-ID: <4A6EFCFA.9070609@aarmstrong.org>

Yeah, just a shame it's a locked platform, to use any of those files 
there's not much you can do - I presume they don't run in the dev kits 
(although if they do that's viable since it's the hardware that'll fail 
sooner then any software).

As for actually paying for them all, getting all of them downloaded and 
preserved - well, then it's just money! Not as bad as I thought I guess 
:D thanks for the info.

Andrew

Mike Melanson wrote:
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>> I think the iPhone has plenty of things that need preserving - not 
>> just games mind you - along with other more open and more closed 
>> platforms. The mobile space has barely been scratched regarding 
>> preservation AFAIK, basically because it's impossible to actually get 
>> the original files for those platforms (tough luck trying to get 
>> backups usually), or get them at any reasonable non-contract price on 
>> a device which will last more then a few years (without any way of 
>> revocation of software from the original parties!), and also phones 
>> ware out so fast compared to other hardware, without a way to 
>> transfer material between them easily usually - SD cards luckily help 
>> I guess with this :)
>
> Preserving iPhone apps once they're downloaded is not that difficult. 
> I have already effectively preserved everything I have purchased and 
> downloaded. The apps are downloaded individually to my computer and I 
> can easily view their location in the filesystem and copy them 
> elsewhere for backup. They're just standard ZIP files with .ipa 
> extensions. The contents can be anything but often contain standard 
> media assets (JPG/PNG image files, CAF audio files, MP4 media files).
>

From donahrm at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 10:12:10 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:12:10 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>
Message-ID: <op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>


> Sure, there's the question of whether most of these iPhone games are  
> worth preserving in the first place.
>


I think that right there is what gives us a -little- bit of time before we  
start worrying about iPhone apps. Not that there aren't some that are or  
will be worth preserving -- but if a game has "died" so early in the  
platform's life, it probably isn't one of them. It's difficult to accept  
sometimes, especially in a world of sub-$100 TB hard drives.. but we  
really can't preserve _everything_. Nor should we.

Cheers,
Rach

From dmonnens at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 11:13:38 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 09:13:38 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx> <op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>

This sounds like it goes back to two issues in preservation. First is the
ability to actually go through the data you have to find what you're looking
for (an issue cited in Vannevar Bush's "As We May Think"). I think the
solution here is usually chalked down to search algorithms and metadata. The
second is the question of how many people will access the data. In the
ecology of iPhone games, this is determined by how good the app is, but it
goes back to the old 'If you tell me what 10% people will access in the
future [or that will be historically significant], then I will preserve
that, but until then, we're saving the whole thing.' A similar quote comes
from a book on Digital Preservation (2004?) with the chapter "Key Issues in
Digital Preservation".

One thing I noted in the first paper I wrote on preservation was that
independently produced games are in greater danger of loss than commercially
produced ones, simply due to the fact that it often relies on the
preservation abilities of individuals and indy games tend to have less
distribution. The paper admitted it was impossible to save everything, and
this holds true for the library of the iPhone.

The other side of the coin is that if the data has already been archived in
a library, it's easier to access. There are romsets for the entire NES and
Atari games collections, something that would be unwieldy - if not
impossible - for an actual physical archive to own every copy and variation
physically. The size of these collections is measured in mere megabytes.
They include historically significant titles like Adventure, Combat, Super
Mario Bros. and Zelda. But they also contain titles like Custer's Revenge
whose importance is determined more by their infamy. In a case like this,
the work has already been 'done' by an indy community. All these titles,
along with their hacks and variants, are archived and catalogued. Whether or
not they are archival-proof on the other hand is a different question
entirely, but the point remains: the task of archiving one of these is as
simple as acquiring a copy and saving it to backup media.

If you have a collection of every single iPhone app ever made
(hypothetically, though I don't doubt you could find a decent torrent
online), it is much easier to copy the whole thing given cheap storage than
it is to pick and choose. The rest comes down to metadata (and the problem
of creating the archive in the first place - those rom sets weren't built
overnight but over the course of more than a decade by many people).

-Devin

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 8:12 AM, Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue
<donahrm at gmail.com>wrote:

>
>  Sure, there's the question of whether most of these iPhone games are worth
>> preserving in the first place.
>>
>>
>
> I think that right there is what gives us a -little- bit of time before we
> start worrying about iPhone apps. Not that there aren't some that are or
> will be worth preserving -- but if a game has "died" so early in the
> platform's life, it probably isn't one of them. It's difficult to accept
> sometimes, especially in a world of sub-$100 TB hard drives.. but we really
> can't preserve _everything_. Nor should we.
>
> Cheers,
> Rach
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>



-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From donahrm at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 11:56:46 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:56:46 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx> <op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>


> Whether or not they are archival-proof on the other hand is a different  
> question
> entirely, but the point remains: the task of archiving one of these is as
> simple as acquiring a copy and saving it to backup media.

Although I agree that the work done by the game community will make  
archival preservation much, much easier -- especially in regards to the  
metadata, as you point out -- even outside of any appraisal questions ("is  
it worth saving?"), "archiving" a game is not as simple as making a backup  
copy. Certainly it's an important first step -- you need to have A Copy of  
an object in order to do anything with it at all. But especially when  
dealing with objects found "in the wild" on the internet, you have major  
issues with chain of custody/authenticity, and still face a lot of work to  
make sure the files remain accessible in a meaningful way. Because what  
good is having a backup copy of a game, if you can't play it?

For now the community continues to remain our savior, with tons of great  
software and hardware solutions. But that may not always be the case, and  
a formal archive does not have the same luxury of treading the legal line  
in its preservation solutions. We're also hampered quite a bit by  
perfectionism in our pursuit of authenticity -- players may be _annoyed_  
by a lack of sound card support, but archivists question whether it  
remains an authentic representation of the game without the sound.

And then, as I think came up with the Nintendo Seal of Authority line of  
thinking (which I just skimmed!), we have the whole world of apps that  
only work on jailbroken iPhones -- some of which are quite revolutionary!  
And sometimes even if something doesn't get wide use, if it's the first to  
make unique use of the technology (e.g., the emerging augmented reality  
applications), it's worth our time in the name of history/innovation. (IMO)

Cheers,
Rach

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Tue Jul 28 12:29:02 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:29:02 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>
	<op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>

Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
> Because what good is having a backup copy of a game, if you can't play 
> it?
I don't think we're even near this stage yet. All the archives do have 
some form of working consoles, but not nearly everything is covered :) 
Maybe emulation stuff is more important if this is the main question, hehe.

> For now the community continues to remain our savior
For certain, popular things, yep. If this list is representative of the 
preservatoinists, archivists or museum runners (and it isn't, but I'm 
trying to get people on it as and when I can), talk about a "handful". 
The community is a good saviour, I just wish some of their sites were 
easier to use (or less political, such as Wikipedia).

Invaluable information however. ROM dumps also prove the software is 
obtainable off hardware, even if that is the legally dubiousness you 
mean :) The authenticity of this is problematic - hardware wise 
especially, and is for me the main sticking point. Playing the original 
Super Mario Bros on anything but a NES controller is a bit "wrong", as 
it is trying to play Duck Hunt without the light gun! :)

I also agree with Devin, and also someone else who say that a lot, Jason 
Scott, that at the moment preserving everything (just having the 
physical device, the software copy or whatever) is the first step 
(however much that physically amounts to is another thing) - although 
yeah, selection is important for some bits (you can't store 1000 of each 
console!). There is no way to know what is important, since even the 
closest comparison - film - has only in the last decade really pushed 
their own preservation (film registry, archives, and of course now the 
knowledge that all that early lost film was important!).
> And then, as I think came up with the Nintendo Seal of Authority line 
> of thinking (which I just skimmed!), we have the whole world of apps 
> that only work on jailbroken iPhones -- some of which are quite 
> revolutionary!
Interesting clash there with the legal boundaries, although I'd admit as 
much for any platform - especially more recently, even the locked down 
ones have some software, cracking, whatever that is interesting and 
revolutionary, or just have good games made for free, heh.

I think the main interesting point to discuss regarding digital things 
is always the move of data - the fact that consoles (especially now) are 
tied incredibly to two single points of failure (a specific, locked down 
console, and a single data disk or hard drive with data on). Unlike 
film, which has no issues once permission is granted to get from film to 
digital, or books which can be scanned, the digital data for games is a 
bit more locked down - especially behind legal, if not always physical 
barriers, and has much more limited life spans compared to a book 
(potentially hundreds of years) and film (decades or longer, depending 
on the film type) since there is bit rot in the hardware, which also 
degrades just by use. Luckily the white paper brings this up, might need 
more then that though to convince some I'd guess.

Fascinating though the mobile space, and as an extension what is 
"acceptable to preserve" or what we even want to. Luckily not at that 
stage just yet :)

Andrew

From donahrm at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 12:59:18 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:59:18 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx> <op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu> <4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <op.uxses4g9fmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>


> I don't think we're even near this stage yet. All the archives do have  
> some form of working consoles, but not nearly everything is covered :)  
> Maybe emulation stuff is more important if this is the main question,  
> hehe.

That's true -- for now! But it's important to plan for the future,  
especially with electronic stuff. At least to the point of having a plan  
in place, keeping up a tech watch, etc. All I'm saying is it's not a  
simple, cut-and-dry problem (or solution).


> For certain, popular things, yep.

Even unpopular! The nice thing about collectors is that there's a  
collector for most things, and if the thing in question is rare.. they're  
fairly likely to be very enthusiastic and proactive (and protective). In  
my experience, anyway.


> The community is a good saviour, I just wish some of their sites were  
> easier to use (or less political, such as Wikipedia).

Got any examples off-hand? When I think major community resources, I think  
of MobyGames, HoTU, C64Preservation, Digital Press, Zophar's Domain etc..  
all of which are pretty user-friendly, if sometimes lacking in aesthetics  
(especially Moby).

> Even if that is the legally dubiousness you mean :)

That, and the backwards engineering involved in creating emulators. Which  
I gather might be more of a problem in the states than elsewhere? Not sure.

> The authenticity of this is problematic - hardware wise especially, and  
> is for me the main sticking point. Playing the original Super Mario Bros  
> on anything but a NES controller is a bit "wrong", as it is trying to  
> play Duck Hunt without the light gun! :)

Hooking up controllers to a PC is pretty trivial.. but that gets into the  
argument of what, precisely, makes up the "essential characteristics" or  
"significant properties" of a video game. And we have enough trouble  
answering that question for "regular" digital records!

Guttenbrunner, M., C. Becker, and A. Rauber,Evaluating Strategies for the  
Preservation of Console Video Games, in iPRES2008. 2008: London, UK.

is a paper that starts to address it, pretty good read.


> I also agree with Devin, and also someone else who say that a lot, Jason  
> Scott, that at the moment preserving everything (just having the  
> physical device, the software copy or whatever) is the first step

Well, it's the first step in records management :) Deciding what to save  
comes further down the line. But when you're talking archives  
specifically, and not preservation/history more generally,  
selection/appraisal becomes important. Yes, I'm very guilty of semantic  
arguments, sorry! And keeping the physical devices alive means taking up  
valuable space, and is not a long term solution. Media independence is a  
key part of fighting obsolescence.

> There is no way to know what is important, since even the closest  
> comparison - film - has only in the last decade really pushed their own  
> preservation (film registry, archives, and of course now the knowledge  
> that all that early lost film was important!).

It's always a bit of an educated guess, unfortunately.

> Interesting clash there with the legal boundaries, although I'd admit as  
> much for any platform - especially more recently, even the locked down  
> ones have some software, cracking, whatever that is interesting and  
> revolutionary, or just have good games made for free, heh.

There's always been -some- homebrewing/otherwise unsanctioned development  
going on, but the iPhone seems to have really brought new life/enthusiasm  
to that scene.


> I think the main interesting point to discuss regarding digital things  
> is always the move of data - the fact that consoles (especially now) are  
> tied incredibly to two single points of failure (a specific, locked down  
> console, and a single data disk or hard drive with data on).

Luckily with many of the consoles, the community has also developed ways  
to create your own carts/disks (or otherwise get software to the system),  
making it possible to play backup copies on the original device if  
necessary :) Course, the console itself is still a problem, depending how  
good current emulation is (I wonder --not having really looked into it--  
if the move in modern consoles to basically being specialized PCs rather  
than truly unique hardware will make this easier in the future).

> film, which has no issues once permission is granted to get from film to  
> digital, or books which can be scanned, the digital data for games is a  
> bit more locked down - especially behind legal, if not always physical  
> barriers, and has much more limited life spans compared to a book  
> (potentially hundreds of years) and film (decades or longer, depending  
> on the film type) since there is bit rot in the hardware, which also  
> degrades just by use. Luckily the white paper brings this up, might need  
> more then that though to convince some I'd guess.

With more movies being taken entirely digitally, they are facing a lot of  
problems -- especially because of the MASSIVE volume of data created for  
any one movie.

http://www.oscars.org/science-technology/council/projects/digitaldilemma/index.html

discusses that in pretty good depth -- and presents no real solutions.  
Like video games, film-making is another field where industry reluctance  
gets in the way. They do _want_ to preserve their stuff, but after decades  
of being able to store it and forget about it, they're extremely  
disinterested in the time and expense involved in active custodianship.


> Fascinating though the mobile space, and as an extension what is  
> "acceptable to preserve" or what we even want to. Luckily not at that  
> stage just yet :)

I don't think that luck will hold out as long as we'd like it to. :X


Cheers,
Rach

From jmcdonou at uiuc.edu  Tue Jul 28 13:07:20 2009
From: jmcdonou at uiuc.edu (Jerome McDonough)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:07:20 -0500
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>
	<op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu> <4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <AD425C28-70F6-429D-884A-F514C6E6BE60@uiuc.edu>


On Jul 28, 2009, at 11:29 AM, Andrew Armstrong wrote:

> Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
>> Because what good is having a backup copy of a game, if you can't  
>> play it?
> I don't think we're even near this stage yet. All the archives do  
> have some form of working consoles, but not nearly everything is  
> covered :) Maybe emulation stuff is more important if this is the  
> main question, hehe.
>

It depends on the game, the instantiations of the game available  
(i.e., source code vs. binary executable), and the resources available  
to enable long-term access.  For the Preserving Virtual Worlds  
project, our working assumption is that long-term preservation is  
probably not realistic unless you have preserved both the game *and*  
either A. sufficient information necessary to port the game forward to  
new platforms or B. emulations which support running the game as is  
(and emulations which you can port forward).  Since we're actually  
planning on trying to archive some content for the project, I think  
we're nearer to this stage than you might suspect.  I'm in agreement  
with the Brewster Kahle-ian philosophy of 'grab the stuff now before  
it goes away forever and we can sort it out tomorrow' but what we grab  
has to be more inclusive than just the games themselves.  Without  
additional documentation of how they work and how people use them,  
there's not much point.  Fortunately, the gaming community has proved  
itself again and again to be remarkably agile in grabbing  
documentation on how things work and how people use them.


Jerome McDonough, Asst. Professor
Graduate School of Library & Information Science
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
501 E. Daniel Street, Room 202
Champaign, IL 61820
(217) 244-5916
jmcdonou at uiuc.edu





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From dmonnens at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 13:27:05 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:27:05 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <op.uxses4g9fmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx> <op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu> <4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>
	<op.uxses4g9fmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50907281027r27cb09bak1ad2f9f517dcf05@mail.gmail.com>

This discussion is interesting when we start considering community standards
for archival. I understand there are standards for ROM cartridges, and it
would be interesting if there was documentation on why those standards were
accepted. Similarly, the Redump community is seeking to dump all game discs
into a 'standard' format, but as far as I know, there's nothing that the
entire community accepts (and zero information on their site as to why they
chose the method they did). Having a set of standards and a reason for why
those are accepted makes the unofficial archive more important and with the
addition of things like checksums also helps with authenticity. Not that I'm
condoning what they're doing, but in terms of research, dumping practices
can provide some valuable information. Right now, I think the only official
group is the SPS, and they have plenty of documentation on their hardware
and archival methods.

Regarding controller usage, the Ritsumeikan Famicom emulator was required by
Nintendo to use an official Nintendo-brand controller and nothing else
(which provides some interesting questions, considering other official
Nintendo peripherals and the importance of third-party ones for games - such
as the Arkanoid controller). Of course, we also have to question what kind
of display device should be used, as a 1980s-era TV produces a MUCH
different visual effect than a modern flatscreen - or HD TV. Ian Bogost's
article on emulating the Atari graphics is great information on that.

This goes back to being able to create original cartridges and comparing it
with emulators. The Universal Virtual Computer project is trying to
establish standards such as this for emulation. They essentially hope to
create a test device that will produce the same quantitative output on both
the original hardware and on the emulator (say how a jpg is displayed or how
a sound file is produced, this will create the same numerical output). With
such a device, we could run it through the original hardware and then run
the program through the emulator. If it produces the same output, then we
know it's operating the same, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Virtual_Computer

Development of a Universal Virtual Computer (UVC) for long-term preservation
of digital objects. J.R. van der Hoeven, R. J. van Diessen and K. van der
Meer. *Journal of Information Science *2005; 31; 196.
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From lowood at stanford.edu  Tue Jul 28 13:48:20 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:48:20 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A6EC860.2000103@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx> <4A6EBCDF.1070709@aarmstrong.org>
	<4A6EC860.2000103@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <4A6F39E4.9000404@stanford.edu>

Well, Andrew, there have been issues with iPhone games being banned:

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/07/zombie-school/
http://www.odesk.com/blog/2009/05/top-10-banned-iphone-apps/
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/AheadoftheCurve/story?id=7415443&page=1

Has Apple posted guidelines as to what is allowed?  Maybe that's the 
difference.

Henry

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> Oh, humorously, we won't have to worry about windows mobile games, 
> since so many are banned from being made on it:
>
> http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/07/27/windows-mobile-games-you-cant-have/
>
> Hehehe :)
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
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From lowood at stanford.edu  Tue Jul 28 13:57:19 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:57:19 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>	<op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
	<4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <4A6F3BFF.4020502@stanford.edu>

Andrew, regarding ...

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> Unlike film, which has no issues once permission is granted to get 
> from film to digital ...
I wish that were true.  Transfer from film to digital is incredibly 
expensive right now, and there are some major issues, primarily 
technical and financial.   Handling film, esp. nitrate film, is 
non-trivial.  Storage costs, another issue, as current digital film 
technologies result in absolutely massive files.   I believe one of the 
NDIIPP projects is working in in this area.  At Stanford, we had to turn 
down a collection last year, because digitization costs were estimated 
at around $15 million.  

Henry

-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
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From dmonnens at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 14:10:16 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:10:16 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A6F3BFF.4020502@stanford.edu>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx> <op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu> <4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>
	<4A6F3BFF.4020502@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50907281110l4bd0e421v3f265555d941f3b5@mail.gmail.com>

That wouldn't even be counting the storage costs of the film itself. Just
because it's been digitized doesn't mean you chuck out the originals. Those
have to be kept in a climate-controlled facility, and that's no mean task.

-Devin

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu> wrote:

>  Andrew, regarding ...
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>
> Unlike film, which has no issues once permission is granted to get from
> film to digital ...
>
> I wish that were true.  Transfer from film to digital is incredibly
> expensive right now, and there are some major issues, primarily technical
> and financial.   Handling film, esp. nitrate film, is non-trivial.  Storage
> costs, another issue, as current digital film technologies result in
> absolutely massive files.   I believe one of the NDIIPP projects is working
> in in this area.  At Stanford, we had to turn down a collection last year,
> because digitization costs were estimated at around $15 million.
>
> Henry
>
> --
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>  Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>


-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From mike at multimedia.cx  Wed Jul 29 01:37:18 2009
From: mike at multimedia.cx (Mike Melanson)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 22:37:18 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx> <op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <4A6FE00E.90402@multimedia.cx>

Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
> 
>> Sure, there's the question of whether most of these iPhone games are 
>> worth preserving in the first place.
>>
> 
> 
> I think that right there is what gives us a -little- bit of time before 
> we start worrying about iPhone apps. Not that there aren't some that are 
> or will be worth preserving -- but if a game has "died" so early in the 
> platform's life, it probably isn't one of them. It's difficult to accept 

I haven't investigated the reasons behind any of the disappearances I 
have found so far. However, given that A) it doesn't cost a developer 
anything to keep an app in the store after it has initially launched; B) 
it doesn't cost Apple incrementally to keep an app listed even if no 
one's buying; and C) Apple doesn't mind pumping up its App Store numbers 
however possible, it seems unlikely that the games in question died due 
to lack of popularity. Perhaps they were found to be using undocumented 
APIs and banned, or perhaps they had controversial content which got 
them banned. The latter case naturally makes for an interesting 
preservation story.

-- 
     -Mike Melanson

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Wed Jul 29 04:13:21 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:13:21 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A6F39E4.9000404@stanford.edu>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>
	<4A6EBCDF.1070709@aarmstrong.org>	<4A6EC860.2000103@aarmstrong.org>
	<4A6F39E4.9000404@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <4A7004A1.9050509@aarmstrong.org>

Oh, yeah, that's occurred, for such inane reasons as "Apple wants to". 
Their TOS for the development of apps basically allows them to ban 
anything they like, for no reason, even after it is vetted for release. 
I don't have the time just now to find the agreement, but it's pretty 
one sided in that regard (and like most things, contains the normal "no 
porn" rules and suchlike).

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> Well, Andrew, there have been issues with iPhone games being banned:
>
> http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/07/zombie-school/
> http://www.odesk.com/blog/2009/05/top-10-banned-iphone-apps/
> http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/AheadoftheCurve/story?id=7415443&page=1
>
> Has Apple posted guidelines as to what is allowed?  Maybe that's the 
> difference.
>
> Henry
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>> Oh, humorously, we won't have to worry about windows mobile games, 
>> since so many are banned from being made on it:
>>
>> http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/07/27/windows-mobile-games-you-cant-have/
>>
>> Hehehe :)
>>
>> Andrew
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
> -- 
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>  Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Wed Jul 29 04:18:56 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:18:56 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50907281110l4bd0e421v3f265555d941f3b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>
	<op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
	<4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>	<4A6F3BFF.4020502@stanford.edu>
	<9d1cf2d50907281110l4bd0e421v3f265555d941f3b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A7005F0.9010604@aarmstrong.org>

Not cheap, but they do have a process! Which can only get cheaper to do 
(and considering the budgets of films compared to games, I am glad 
they're investing some money to start this). The actual size is going to 
be ridiculous, I know that much just from digitising 1080p material, to 
gigabytes per tape :)

Unlike games, where the best practice to archive something is, under the 
DMCA, to "Get a few copies of the original media and hope they don't go 
wrong", which isn't as expensive but certainly needs work :) Without any 
legal backup, the fact it's totally illegal to break copy protections 
and make a copy of media is a huge barrier.

Films also have the future advantage of going all-digital, which will 
cut the preservation costs there down significantly.

I think future proofing this somehow is necessary (like how film 
actually has, even if it is expensive), and in the US, for all intents 
and purposes, there is either the need to get the makers involved 
directly or a change in the law, both seem a bit far off :(

Andrew

Devin Monnens wrote:
> That wouldn't even be counting the storage costs of the film itself. 
> Just because it's been digitized doesn't mean you chuck out the 
> originals. Those have to be kept in a climate-controlled facility, and 
> that's no mean task.
>
> -Devin
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu 
> <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>> wrote:
>
>     Andrew, regarding ...
>
>     Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>     Unlike film, which has no issues once permission is granted to
>>     get from film to digital ...
>     I wish that were true.  Transfer from film to digital is
>     incredibly expensive right now, and there are some major issues,
>     primarily technical and financial.   Handling film, esp. nitrate
>     film, is non-trivial.  Storage costs, another issue, as current
>     digital film technologies result in absolutely massive files.   I
>     believe one of the NDIIPP projects is working in in this area.  At
>     Stanford, we had to turn down a collection last year, because
>     digitization costs were estimated at around $15 million.  
>
>     Henry
>
>
>     -- 
>     Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>     Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>      Film & Media Collections
>     HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>     Stanford University Libraries
>     Stanford CA 94305-6004
>     650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>;
>     http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Wed Jul 29 04:29:20 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:29:20 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <op.uxses4g9fmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>
	<op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
	<4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org> <op.uxses4g9fmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <4A700860.1040207@aarmstrong.org>

Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
>> The community is a good saviour, I just wish some of their sites were 
>> easier to use (or less political, such as Wikipedia).
>
> Got any examples off-hand? When I think major community resources, I 
> think of MobyGames, HoTU, C64Preservation, Digital Press, Zophar's 
> Domain etc.. all of which are pretty user-friendly, if sometimes 
> lacking in aesthetics (especially Moby).
MobyGames is pretty accessible (just sometimes I wish game name searches 
bring up the game matching the title first :) ). However most sites make 
finding information tough on the searcher - the search capabilities are 
always, I find, pretty poor (out of those sites only MobyGames and 
HotU's have proper search capabilities - Google search is *not* an 
adequate replacement sadly, and Zophar's sadly doesn't do search very 
well - context is key when searching for terms). I should create a page 
of search links sometime, to save me some time when searching for info, 
so it can automatically search certain sites. :)

I'm not saying they're terrible, far from it, excellent resources, just 
like I said I wish some were easier to use! :) Search is hard to do, I'd 
admit that much though. ATM It's basically google site:XXX search for 
most of them.

Professional DB's are just as bad if not worse mind you. 
Gamespot/IGN/etc. all have databases, for what it's worth, and are very 
difficult to search through for relevant information. GiantBomb looks a 
bit more promising though.

Oh, as for controllers/authenticity goes - I meant that the original 
controllers sometimes are just not made any more, so is using a 
replacement better? a 3rd party cheap knockoff? Not many archievs, if 
any, will have the funding to get custom-made replicas - certainly with 
the right electronic kit - to match such things. The emulation of 
systems is a more difficult problem, there is tactile things there.

Andrew

From if at caps-project.org  Wed Jul 29 05:40:30 2009
From: if at caps-project.org (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXN0duFuIEbhYmnhbg==?=)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:40:30 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx><4A6EBCDF.1070709@aarmstrong.org>	<4A6EC860.2000103@aarmstrong.org><4A6EFAE4.9000008@multimedia.cx>
	<4A6EFBF6.2040107@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <6895C67375F647F394934089D58895A0@tg.scee.sony.co.uk>

TRC & TCR is much more complicated than that - they ensure a consistent user 
experience as well as technical requirements.

Istv?n


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew Armstrong" <andrew at aarmstrong.org>
To: "IGDA Game Preservation SIG" <game_preservation at igda.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation


> Oh, the joys of reading up on the Nintendo Seal of Approval rubbish! I 
> remember reading the Maniac Mansion one, and reading up more on what was 
> left in the code and what changed, fascinating if only in a "watching a 
> crime scene" kind of way. The Microsoft guidelines did remind me of that 
> era, haha!
>
> Nowadays of course, the console makers just slap a "Can't be AO rated by 
> the ESRB" as the main guideline...I wonder what the iPhone one is like 
> actually.
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> 


From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Wed Jul 29 05:48:25 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:48:25 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <6895C67375F647F394934089D58895A0@tg.scee.sony.co.uk>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx><4A6EBCDF.1070709@aarmstrong.org>	<4A6EC860.2000103@aarmstrong.org><4A6EFAE4.9000008@multimedia.cx>	<4A6EFBF6.2040107@aarmstrong.org>
	<6895C67375F647F394934089D58895A0@tg.scee.sony.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4A701AE9.3060808@aarmstrong.org>

I thought we were just referring to the content. Technical 
specifications are a whole other affair (painful though it is, after 
reading up on Multiwinia's goings onto XBLA!). Apart from a few accounts 
there isn't much just out there as legal documents or agreements on what 
is needed since it's all kept under NDA's and whatever terms of 
agreement to not tell anyone about it. If I was more interested it'd be 
fascinated to try and find out the entirety of it though for all the 
systems.

Andrew

Istv?n F?bi?n wrote:
> TRC & TCR is much more complicated than that - they ensure a 
> consistent user experience as well as technical requirements.
>
> Istv?n
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Armstrong" 
> <andrew at aarmstrong.org>
> To: "IGDA Game Preservation SIG" <game_preservation at igda.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
>
>
>> Oh, the joys of reading up on the Nintendo Seal of Approval rubbish! 
>> I remember reading the Maniac Mansion one, and reading up more on 
>> what was left in the code and what changed, fascinating if only in a 
>> "watching a crime scene" kind of way. The Microsoft guidelines did 
>> remind me of that era, haha!
>>
>> Nowadays of course, the console makers just slap a "Can't be AO rated 
>> by the ESRB" as the main guideline...I wonder what the iPhone one is 
>> like actually.
>>
>> Andrew
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

From dmonnens at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 09:40:33 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:40:33 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A701AE9.3060808@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx> <4A6EBCDF.1070709@aarmstrong.org>
	<4A6EC860.2000103@aarmstrong.org> <4A6EFAE4.9000008@multimedia.cx>
	<4A6EFBF6.2040107@aarmstrong.org>
	<6895C67375F647F394934089D58895A0@tg.scee.sony.co.uk>
	<4A701AE9.3060808@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50907290640x12e43487s72d9770612931662@mail.gmail.com>

Well, for starters there's a book that lists all the tech specs of each
console. Speaking of search functions, Amazon is horrible with that. I'll
find it and post it later.

I'd say it might be worth checking with the publishers to see what rights
they have for their games and if it's possible to work through each
individual publisher to archive games in a library, in black boxes if
necessary. That sounds like a complete legal nightmare, but the only way you
can get the information is to actually go out and ask. At the same time, it
would be a good idea to find out who owns the rights to which games.

Here's some interesting books that seem related:

iPhone Apps Book Vol. 1: The Essential Directory of iPhone and iPod Touch
Applications (Paperback)
http://www.amazon.com/iPhone-Apps-Book-Vol-Applications/dp/0761562850/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248874605&sr=8-1

Vintropedia - Vintage Computer & Retro Console Price Guide 2009 (Paperback)
http://www.amazon.com/Vintropedia-Vintage-Computer-Retro-Console/dp/1409212777/ref=sr_1_38?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248874128&sr=1-38

Actually, I'm curious as to when DigitPress's new price guide is coming out,
too. I also love how something that's only 10 years old is now suddenly
'vintage gaming'. If only wine could age that quickly...

-Devin

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 3:48 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

> I thought we were just referring to the content. Technical specifications
> are a whole other affair (painful though it is, after reading up on
> Multiwinia's goings onto XBLA!). Apart from a few accounts there isn't much
> just out there as legal documents or agreements on what is needed since it's
> all kept under NDA's and whatever terms of agreement to not tell anyone
> about it. If I was more interested it'd be fascinated to try and find out
> the entirety of it though for all the systems.
>
> Andrew
>
>
> --
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From jmcdonou at uiuc.edu  Wed Jul 29 10:57:32 2009
From: jmcdonou at uiuc.edu (Jerome McDonough)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:57:32 -0500
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A7005F0.9010604@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>
	<op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
	<4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>	<4A6F3BFF.4020502@stanford.edu>
	<9d1cf2d50907281110l4bd0e421v3f265555d941f3b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A7005F0.9010604@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <F1E6F711-4052-49DF-B451-85BD603F9468@uiuc.edu>


On Jul 29, 2009, at 3:18 AM, Andrew Armstrong wrote:

> Not cheap, but they do have a process! Which can only get cheaper  
> to do (and considering the budgets of films compared to games, I am  
> glad they're investing some money to start this). The actual size  
> is going to be ridiculous, I know that much just from digitising  
> 1080p material, to gigabytes per tape :)

And it's only going to get worse.  I saw a draft of a JPEG 2000  
application profile for digital cinema frame data that included a  
frame resolution of about 9600 x 15500.  Think a 6x6 array of Apple  
30" cinema displays, going at 24 frames per second.

> Unlike games, where the best practice to archive something is,  
> under the DMCA, to "Get a few copies of the original media and hope  
> they don't go wrong", which isn't as expensive but certainly needs  
> work :) Without any legal backup, the fact it's totally illegal to  
> break copy protections and make a copy of media is a huge barrier.
>

Well, not totally illegal at this point in time for everyone. :)   
Libraries enjoy an ability to defeat a technological protection  
measure for the purposes of creating a preservation copy of a game  
though the end of this calendar year as one of the limited duration  
exemptions issued by the Copyright Office.  That's one of the reasons  
the Preserving Virtual World project can actually do some of its  
research at the moment.  But, that exemption will end at the  
conclusion of 2009, and then, yes, we're back to the grab a copy and  
hope for the best approach, unless we can get the DMCA amended or  
another exemption.

> Films also have the future advantage of going all-digital, which  
> will cut the preservation costs there down significantly.
>

Sadly, I doubt it.  Storage costs go down in digital, but maintenance  
costs go up, since you have to worry about regular migration of  
assets to new hardware (and new formats) in a way you don't in the  
analog realm.  Cold storage for film stock is costly to set up, but  
once you dump a film in there, you can walk away and come back in 20  
years with a reasonable expectation that you still have a viewable  
film.  Put a digital film on a drive, walk away for 20 years and come  
back and the odds you have something viewable are nowhere near as  
good.  Eventually, with better systems for automating some of the  
preservation checks/migration processes digital preservation costs  
may come down, but really I don't see that happening on a large scale  
for 15 years or so.

> I think future proofing this somehow is necessary (like how film  
> actually has, even if it is expensive), and in the US, for all  
> intents and purposes, there is either the need to get the makers  
> involved directly or a change in the law, both seem a bit far off :(
>


I think you're absolutely right on getting the  makers involved.  I'm  
feeling a bit more positive about that than I was even a few years  
ago.  The actions of Blizzard and Microsoft towards the machinima  
community in issuing their respective ground rules for machinima,  
which made it clear that they don't have any interest in going after  
machinimists for copyright infringement, give me some hope that the  
game companies are perfectly amenable to helping with long-term  
preservation as long as it's not too onerous on them in terms of  
additional labor they have to engage in, and it doesn't have an  
adverse effect on their bottom line, both of which are probably  
achievable.  Getting their attention is probably the hardest part of  
the process.


Asst. Prof. Jerome McDonough
Graduate School of Library & Information Science
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
501 E. Daniel Street, MC-493
Champaign, IL 61820-6211
(217) 244-5916
jmcdonou at uiuc.edu



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From dmonnens at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 11:05:19 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:05:19 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <F1E6F711-4052-49DF-B451-85BD603F9468@uiuc.edu>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx> <op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu> <4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>
	<4A6F3BFF.4020502@stanford.edu>
	<9d1cf2d50907281110l4bd0e421v3f265555d941f3b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A7005F0.9010604@aarmstrong.org>
	<F1E6F711-4052-49DF-B451-85BD603F9468@uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50907290805n37df5c99o697faac4ecfd3145@mail.gmail.com>

Just a couple responses before I have to hop off to work:

Well, not totally illegal at this point in time for everyone. :)  Libraries
> enjoy an ability to defeat a technological protection measure for the
> purposes of creating a preservation copy of a game though the end of this
> calendar year as one of the limited duration exemptions issued by the
> Copyright Office.


Does this mean they can keep whatever data they archived? Or does
copyrighted data then have to be destroyed? I can't imagine they'd
grandfather it in...

Sadly, I doubt it.  Storage costs go down in digital, but maintenance costs
> go up, since you have to worry about regular migration of assets to new
> hardware (and new formats) in a way you don't in the analog realm.


Some archives use a 1/2 rule for costs when they decide to migrate: they
wait until the cost of the new media costs exactly half of what the previous
media cost. This means the total cost of archiving will only be twice what
it costs to initially preserve:

1 + 1:2 + 1:4 + 1:8 + 1:16... = 2

I believe this system is used by Cornell.

If you use a system like the UVC (or emulation), you don't have to worry
about format migration. Companies will only migrate formats if they find
these files are regularly accessed and so require it, but for games you
generally don't have to (online sellers will generally do the job for you).
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From lowood at stanford.edu  Wed Jul 29 13:24:27 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:24:27 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A7005F0.9010604@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>	<op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>	<4A6F3BFF.4020502@stanford.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907281110l4bd0e421v3f265555d941f3b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A7005F0.9010604@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <4A7085CB.4070304@stanford.edu>

Andrew,

Boy, I am coming across as a wet blanket in this discussion, but ...

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>
>
> Films also have the future advantage of going all-digital, which will 
> cut the preservation costs there down significantly.
Actually, in the near- to mid-term, this is significantly RAISING the 
cost of preservation.   I have seen a report by the archivist of AMAS 
(from about two years ago), which put the cost of industrial-strength 
management of current-gen digital-film masters in the seven figures 
range -- for one title!  I think he was using the example of the most 
recent Spiderman film, which generated a digital master that was 
something like 2 TB in size.  The bit-depth of theater-quality film, 
plus various tracks of audio and other information, results in a huge 
bitstream.  His point was that studios are likely only to bear these 
costs while films make money, so there is real danger of loss.

Comparatively, storing a canister of film is cheap.  Even archives of 
nitrate masters (and I have been to a couple) in what are essentially 
concrete warehouses seem inexpensive by comparison, at least on a 
per-title basis.

Henry
-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Wed Jul 29 14:14:48 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 19:14:48 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A7085CB.4070304@stanford.edu>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>	<op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>	<4A6F3BFF.4020502@stanford.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907281110l4bd0e421v3f265555d941f3b5@mail.gmail.com>	<4A7005F0.9010604@aarmstrong.org>
	<4A7085CB.4070304@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <4A709198.80902@aarmstrong.org>

Really? fair enough, they need the quality of massive files.

I'd love to see a breakdown of it, although it's barely something that 
related to the videogame world since even cutscenes are no where near 
the space of the digital-print quality needed as Jerome mentioned, and 
even if they were they are a few minutes in length. Is it 2 Terabytes? 
that's not that much space, did you mean petabytes? :)

In any case, I am sure situations will change - well, they must do, 
since the film studios need some way to make future copies of a film. A 
shame games, then, are so small, even if original art assets, files and 
code is included with the final game files. ;) Blessing perhaps rather 
then a curse.

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> Andrew,
>
> Boy, I am coming across as a wet blanket in this discussion, but ...
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>
>>
>> Films also have the future advantage of going all-digital, which will 
>> cut the preservation costs there down significantly.
> Actually, in the near- to mid-term, this is significantly RAISING the 
> cost of preservation.   I have seen a report by the archivist of AMAS 
> (from about two years ago), which put the cost of industrial-strength 
> management of current-gen digital-film masters in the seven figures 
> range -- for one title!  I think he was using the example of the most 
> recent Spiderman film, which generated a digital master that was 
> something like 2 TB in size.  The bit-depth of theater-quality film, 
> plus various tracks of audio and other information, results in a huge 
> bitstream.  His point was that studios are likely only to bear these 
> costs while films make money, so there is real danger of loss.
>
> Comparatively, storing a canister of film is cheap.  Even archives of 
> nitrate masters (and I have been to a couple) in what are essentially 
> concrete warehouses seem inexpensive by comparison, at least on a 
> per-title basis.
>
> Henry
> -- 
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>  Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From lowood at stanford.edu  Wed Jul 29 14:52:17 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:52:17 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A709198.80902@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>	<op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>	<4A6F3BFF.4020502@stanford.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907281110l4bd0e421v3f265555d941f3b5@mail.gmail.com>	<4A7005F0.9010604@aarmstrong.org>	<4A7085CB.4070304@stanford.edu>
	<4A709198.80902@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <4A709A61.4030706@stanford.edu>

Andrew,

2TB is a lot for professionally managed storage solutions, which have 
expensive per-kb costs, because until recent years, the primary group of 
customers was law firms.   They can afford to pay a lot per byte, and 
their documents are small by comparison to high-resolution moving image 
collections; so there is an issue of scale. 

Henry

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> Really? fair enough, they need the quality of massive files.
>
> I'd love to see a breakdown of it, although it's barely something that 
> related to the videogame world since even cutscenes are no where near 
> the space of the digital-print quality needed as Jerome mentioned, and 
> even if they were they are a few minutes in length. Is it 2 Terabytes? 
> that's not that much space, did you mean petabytes? :)
>
> In any case, I am sure situations will change - well, they must do, 
> since the film studios need some way to make future copies of a film. 
> A shame games, then, are so small, even if original art assets, files 
> and code is included with the final game files. ;) Blessing perhaps 
> rather then a curse.
>
> Andrew
>
> Henry Lowood wrote:
>> Andrew,
>>
>> Boy, I am coming across as a wet blanket in this discussion, but ...
>>
>> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Films also have the future advantage of going all-digital, which 
>>> will cut the preservation costs there down significantly.
>> Actually, in the near- to mid-term, this is significantly RAISING the 
>> cost of preservation.   I have seen a report by the archivist of AMAS 
>> (from about two years ago), which put the cost of industrial-strength 
>> management of current-gen digital-film masters in the seven figures 
>> range -- for one title!  I think he was using the example of the most 
>> recent Spiderman film, which generated a digital master that was 
>> something like 2 TB in size.  The bit-depth of theater-quality film, 
>> plus various tracks of audio and other information, results in a huge 
>> bitstream.  His point was that studios are likely only to bear these 
>> costs while films make money, so there is real danger of loss.
>>
>> Comparatively, storing a canister of film is cheap.  Even archives of 
>> nitrate masters (and I have been to a couple) in what are essentially 
>> concrete warehouses seem inexpensive by comparison, at least on a 
>> per-title basis.
>>
>> Henry
>> -- 
>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>  Film & Media Collections
>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>> Stanford University Libraries
>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
>> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Wed Jul 29 15:12:42 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:12:42 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A709A61.4030706@stanford.edu>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>	<op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>	<4A6F3BFF.4020502@stanford.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907281110l4bd0e421v3f265555d941f3b5@mail.gmail.com>	<4A7005F0.9010604@aarmstrong.org>	<4A7085CB.4070304@stanford.edu>	<4A709198.80902@aarmstrong.org>
	<4A709A61.4030706@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <4A709F2A.4060709@aarmstrong.org>

Fair enough. Funnily I was looking up some numbers, and saw Monsters 
versus Aliens was at the 100TB mark for production storage. Ouch, if you 
wanted to store that at the "insane managed storage solution" price.

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> Andrew,
>
> 2TB is a lot for professionally managed storage solutions, which have 
> expensive per-kb costs, because until recent years, the primary group 
> of customers was law firms.   They can afford to pay a lot per byte, 
> and their documents are small by comparison to high-resolution moving 
> image collections; so there is an issue of scale. 
>
> Henry
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>> Really? fair enough, they need the quality of massive files.
>>
>> I'd love to see a breakdown of it, although it's barely something 
>> that related to the videogame world since even cutscenes are no where 
>> near the space of the digital-print quality needed as Jerome 
>> mentioned, and even if they were they are a few minutes in length. Is 
>> it 2 Terabytes? that's not that much space, did you mean petabytes? :)
>>
>> In any case, I am sure situations will change - well, they must do, 
>> since the film studios need some way to make future copies of a film. 
>> A shame games, then, are so small, even if original art assets, files 
>> and code is included with the final game files. ;) Blessing perhaps 
>> rather then a curse.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Henry Lowood wrote:
>>> Andrew,
>>>
>>> Boy, I am coming across as a wet blanket in this discussion, but ...
>>>
>>> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Films also have the future advantage of going all-digital, which 
>>>> will cut the preservation costs there down significantly.
>>> Actually, in the near- to mid-term, this is significantly RAISING 
>>> the cost of preservation.   I have seen a report by the archivist of 
>>> AMAS (from about two years ago), which put the cost of 
>>> industrial-strength management of current-gen digital-film masters 
>>> in the seven figures range -- for one title!  I think he was using 
>>> the example of the most recent Spiderman film, which generated a 
>>> digital master that was something like 2 TB in size.  The bit-depth 
>>> of theater-quality film, plus various tracks of audio and other 
>>> information, results in a huge bitstream.  His point was that 
>>> studios are likely only to bear these costs while films make money, 
>>> so there is real danger of loss.
>>>
>>> Comparatively, storing a canister of film is cheap.  Even archives 
>>> of nitrate masters (and I have been to a couple) in what are 
>>> essentially concrete warehouses seem inexpensive by comparison, at 
>>> least on a per-title basis.
>>>
>>> Henry
>>> -- 
>>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>>  Film & Media Collections
>>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>> Stanford University Libraries
>>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
>>> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>   
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
>
> -- 
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>  Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From lowood at stanford.edu  Wed Jul 29 16:54:43 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:54:43 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A709F2A.4060709@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>	<op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>	<4A6F3BFF.4020502@stanford.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907281110l4bd0e421v3f265555d941f3b5@mail.gmail.com>	<4A7005F0.9010604@aarmstrong.org>	<4A7085CB.4070304@stanford.edu>	<4A709198.80902@aarmstrong.org>	<4A709A61.4030706@stanford.edu>
	<4A709F2A.4060709@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <4A70B713.5090400@stanford.edu>

Wow, so that's even a huge jump from the figure that was given two years 
ago.   I suppose part of the reason is that the bit-depth of the 
high-end digital film keeps going up, plus the addition of tracks for 
various purposes.  My God, 100TB.  I'll take the 50MB machinima pieces 
in the archives, thank you.

Oh, btw, the AMAS archivist also passed out a chart showing the 
incredible number of digital video formats that have been used for 
production in the movie industry.  It was literally in the dozens for 
just the past decade or so.   So that's another issue.

Henry

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> Fair enough. Funnily I was looking up some numbers, and saw Monsters 
> versus Aliens was at the 100TB mark for production storage. Ouch, if 
> you wanted to store that at the "insane managed storage solution" price.
>
> Andrew
>
> Henry Lowood wrote:
>> Andrew,
>>
>> 2TB is a lot for professionally managed storage solutions, which have 
>> expensive per-kb costs, because until recent years, the primary group 
>> of customers was law firms.   They can afford to pay a lot per byte, 
>> and their documents are small by comparison to high-resolution moving 
>> image collections; so there is an issue of scale. 
>>
>> Henry
>>
>> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>> Really? fair enough, they need the quality of massive files.
>>>
>>> I'd love to see a breakdown of it, although it's barely something 
>>> that related to the videogame world since even cutscenes are no 
>>> where near the space of the digital-print quality needed as Jerome 
>>> mentioned, and even if they were they are a few minutes in length. 
>>> Is it 2 Terabytes? that's not that much space, did you mean 
>>> petabytes? :)
>>>
>>> In any case, I am sure situations will change - well, they must do, 
>>> since the film studios need some way to make future copies of a 
>>> film. A shame games, then, are so small, even if original art 
>>> assets, files and code is included with the final game files. ;) 
>>> Blessing perhaps rather then a curse.
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> Henry Lowood wrote:
>>>> Andrew,
>>>>
>>>> Boy, I am coming across as a wet blanket in this discussion, but ...
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Films also have the future advantage of going all-digital, which 
>>>>> will cut the preservation costs there down significantly.
>>>> Actually, in the near- to mid-term, this is significantly RAISING 
>>>> the cost of preservation.   I have seen a report by the archivist 
>>>> of AMAS (from about two years ago), which put the cost of 
>>>> industrial-strength management of current-gen digital-film masters 
>>>> in the seven figures range -- for one title!  I think he was using 
>>>> the example of the most recent Spiderman film, which generated a 
>>>> digital master that was something like 2 TB in size.  The bit-depth 
>>>> of theater-quality film, plus various tracks of audio and other 
>>>> information, results in a huge bitstream.  His point was that 
>>>> studios are likely only to bear these costs while films make money, 
>>>> so there is real danger of loss.
>>>>
>>>> Comparatively, storing a canister of film is cheap.  Even archives 
>>>> of nitrate masters (and I have been to a couple) in what are 
>>>> essentially concrete warehouses seem inexpensive by comparison, at 
>>>> least on a per-title basis.
>>>>
>>>> Henry
>>>> -- 
>>>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>>>  Film & Media Collections
>>>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>>> Stanford University Libraries
>>>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
>>>> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>>   
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>   
>>
>> -- 
>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>  Film & Media Collections
>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>> Stanford University Libraries
>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
>> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
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From jmcdonou at uiuc.edu  Wed Jul 29 18:54:14 2009
From: jmcdonou at uiuc.edu (Jerome McDonough)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:54:14 -0500
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A709F2A.4060709@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>	<op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>	<4A6F3BFF.4020502@stanford.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907281110l4bd0e421v3f265555d941f3b5@mail.gmail.com>	<4A7005F0.9010604@aarmstrong.org>	<4A7085CB.4070304@stanford.edu>	<4A709198.80902@aarmstrong.org>
	<4A709A61.4030706@stanford.edu> <4A709F2A.4060709@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <F62FF79C-E21F-4EF5-908A-D77C03C749A9@uiuc.edu>

There is a *huge* difference between the amount of storage needed in  
production/post-production and what ends up in the final master for  
delivery to theaters.  Any movie will generate a ton of assets that  
don't make it into the final cut (although increasingly they do show  
up in DVDs post-release).

For 4K resolution digital cinema using a 4:4:4 colorspace and 36-bits/ 
pixel of color information (pretty standard for the serious movie  
folks), a single frame takes 39.81 MB.  At the standard 24 frame/ 
second "film" speed, one minute of video imagery takes 28.67 GB.   An  
hour will take about 1.72 TB; two hours 3.44 TB.  Add in audio  
information, then compress the whole lot and you've got about 2TB of  
delivered film.

I seem to remember that the effects people who worked on Spiderman III  
typically had about 50 TB of assets online that they were having to  
manage for rending scenes.  So, yes, the ratio of production/post- 
production storage needs and projection house storage needs are vastly  
different.  One of the big questions for the movie preservation folks  
at this point is the question of whether archiving the final product  
is enough, or whether they want to archive *all* the raw assets, along  
with the edit decision lists that determined the composition of the  
final film.

On Jul 29, 2009, at 2:12 PM, Andrew Armstrong wrote:

> Fair enough. Funnily I was looking up some numbers, and saw Monsters  
> versus Aliens was at the 100TB mark for production storage. Ouch, if  
> you wanted to store that at the "insane managed storage solution"  
> price.
>
> Andrew
>
> Henry Lowood wrote:
>>
>> Andrew,
>>
>> 2TB is a lot for professionally managed storage solutions, which  
>> have expensive per-kb costs, because until recent years, the  
>> primary group of customers was law firms.   They can afford to pay  
>> a lot per byte, and their documents are small by comparison to high- 
>> resolution moving image collections; so there is an issue of scale.
>>
>> Henry
>>
>> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>>
>>> Really? fair enough, they need the quality of massive files.
>>>
>>> I'd love to see a breakdown of it, although it's barely something  
>>> that related to the videogame world since even cutscenes are no  
>>> where near the space of the digital-print quality needed as Jerome  
>>> mentioned, and even if they were they are a few minutes in length.  
>>> Is it 2 Terabytes? that's not that much space, did you mean  
>>> petabytes? :)
>>>
>>> In any case, I am sure situations will change - well, they must  
>>> do, since the film studios need some way to make future copies of  
>>> a film. A shame games, then, are so small, even if original art  
>>> assets, files and code is included with the final game files. ;)  
>>> Blessing perhaps rather then a curse.
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> Henry Lowood wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Andrew,
>>>>
>>>> Boy, I am coming across as a wet blanket in this discussion,  
>>>> but ...
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Films also have the future advantage of going all-digital, which  
>>>>> will cut the preservation costs there down significantly.
>>>> Actually, in the near- to mid-term, this is significantly RAISING  
>>>> the cost of preservation.   I have seen a report by the archivist  
>>>> of AMAS (from about two years ago), which put the cost of  
>>>> industrial-strength management of current-gen digital-film  
>>>> masters in the seven figures range -- for one title!  I think he  
>>>> was using the example of the most recent Spiderman film, which  
>>>> generated a digital master that was something like 2 TB in size.   
>>>> The bit-depth of theater-quality film, plus various tracks of  
>>>> audio and other information, results in a huge bitstream.  His  
>>>> point was that studios are likely only to bear these costs while  
>>>> films make money, so there is real danger of loss.
>>>>
>>>> Comparatively, storing a canister of film is cheap.  Even  
>>>> archives of nitrate masters (and I have been to a couple) in what  
>>>> are essentially concrete warehouses seem inexpensive by  
>>>> comparison, at least on a per-title basis.
>>>>
>>>> Henry
>>>> -- 
>>>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>>>  Film & Media Collections
>>>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>>> Stanford University Libraries
>>>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>  Film & Media Collections
>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>> Stanford University Libraries
>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

Jerome McDonough, Asst. Professor
Graduate School of Library & Information Science
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
501 E. Daniel Street, Room 202
Champaign, IL 61820
(217) 244-5916
jmcdonou at uiuc.edu





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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Wed Jul 29 19:35:01 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 00:35:01 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <F62FF79C-E21F-4EF5-908A-D77C03C749A9@uiuc.edu>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>	<op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>	<4A6F3BFF.4020502@stanford.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907281110l4bd0e421v3f265555d941f3b5@mail.gmail.com>	<4A7005F0.9010604@aarmstrong.org>	<4A7085CB.4070304@stanford.edu>	<4A709198.80902@aarmstrong.org>	<4A709A61.4030706@stanford.edu>
	<4A709F2A.4060709@aarmstrong.org>
	<F62FF79C-E21F-4EF5-908A-D77C03C749A9@uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <4A70DCA5.4050108@aarmstrong.org>

Absolutely, it's just an interesting figure the "production assets" 
numbers - Monsters Versus Aliens is all just 3d stuff too (I imagine all 
the Pixar movies are this or larger too). Also, notably, 3d films are 
likely going to produce at the very least a duplicate master - so even 
cutting out the pre-production and original assets for these things, 
there will be a 2d and 3d version, doubling up the size (or, for the 3d 
one, I suspect trebling it - so 6TB instead of 2TB! - although I am not 
savvy enough on the 3d techniques, I think it needs the ~60fps to do 2 
halves of 30fps per eye using the glasses). I doubt you can make the 3d 
version from just the 2d one easily, so there is going to be yet more 
problems in the future for films.

And the question "what is worth preserving from whatever standpoint", 
well, tough call. Cut film, deleted scenes, alternative angles and shots 
- knowing how the editing, filming, B-reels, outtakes, repeated shots, 
storyboard shoots, test shots, location finding, film dailys, camera 
setup and repeated takes all went is, for those interested in making 
films, and critics too, I am sure is highly useful if available - 
although a massive amount of material to store raw. At least as you said 
with DVD's and bonus content, this is being retained more often. 
Possibly one way around that is to not store it as perfect quality, 
which can easily lower it into GB's instead of TB's. :)

Parallel to games, I suspect the amount of raw data produced when going 
through pre-production to the final product space-wise is going to still 
be in the TB ranges, since to actually make use of a version of a game, 
a snapshot is needed of every asset used to run it at that time, making 
the GB's readily sore. No hard and fast rules there though on how much 
it is unlike film which is more measurable per-minute numbers, and not 
many companies work on keeping such versions working in the future 
(packaged betas and alphas are likely kept around though).

Some number crunching will be useful in the future, might revisit this 
topic if the different people who do digital-based preservation 
(whatever it actually is) can provide the info available with estimates 
for those others who might want to do it in the future - best practices 
of digital preservation too, which a big part is going to likely cost 
serious money to do well :)

Possibly also would be nice to know the kind of ballpark for not-perfect 
archival managed backup/preservation systems - so some figures can be 
given to companies doing their own versions, or at least an idea about 
what they need to do to have a reasonable amount of coverage from data loss.

Andrew

Jerome McDonough wrote:
> There is a *huge* difference between the amount of storage needed in 
> production/post-production and what ends up in the final master for 
> delivery to theaters.  Any movie will generate a ton of assets that 
> don't make it into the final cut (although increasingly they do show 
> up in DVDs post-release). 

From donahrm at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 20:05:34 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel Donahue)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:05:34 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A70DCA5.4050108@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx> <4A6F3BFF.4020502@stanford.edu> 
	<9d1cf2d50907281110l4bd0e421v3f265555d941f3b5@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4A7005F0.9010604@aarmstrong.org> <4A7085CB.4070304@stanford.edu> 
	<4A709198.80902@aarmstrong.org> <4A709A61.4030706@stanford.edu> 
	<4A709F2A.4060709@aarmstrong.org>
	<F62FF79C-E21F-4EF5-908A-D77C03C749A9@uiuc.edu> 
	<4A70DCA5.4050108@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <f2d80c160907291705p49ca991av843943ff8e7e5a4e@mail.gmail.com>

Andrew writes:

"Films also have the future advantage of going all-digital, which will cut
the preservation costs there down significantly."

Unfortunately, this is an illusion many people have -- that once you
digitize something, you have no costs. That's just not true, leading many
funding agencies to require proof of sustainability for new digitization
projects. Maintaining digital film archives will, in the long run, be much
more expensive than preserving physical film. With physical film, you build
a cold vault, maybe exercise it once in a while, and you can pretty much
forget about it. Electronic records require constant maintenance, and staff
with the expertise to do it. The costs don't stop after the initial
overhead.

(I see after writing this that Henry and Jerome have spoken to it as well..
but I don't want Henry to feel like the only wet blanket in the room)


" Not many archievs, if any, will have the funding to get custom-made
replicas - certainly with the right electronic kit - to match such things. "

IMO, not many archives will be concerned about the controller. Unless you're
talking about the Wii, or something like Star Raiders or Golden tee where
the controller is an integral part of the experience.. it's just not high on
the priority list -- none of the hardware is. Leave that to the museums!

"I'd love to see a breakdown of it"
See the report I linked to a bit back, it does a pretty great job of laying
out the problems and expenses, though it's of course rapidly becoming
outdated.

"Some number crunching will be useful in the future, might revisit this
topic if the different people who do digital-based preservation (whatever it
actually is) can provide the info available with estimates for those others
who might want to do it in the future - best practices of digital
preservation too, which a big part is going to likely cost serious money to
do well :)"

I hate to say it, but.. no one -REALLY- does long term digital preservation
quite yet >.> so numbers will largely be based on the costs of backup,
storage, and amount of redundancy. Well, maybe that's not entirely fair, as
some projects (LOCKSS comes to mind) are chugging along and getting things
done.. but most is mid term. It will be a while before we can accurately
judge preservation costs, I think. Better to convince them of the costs of
NOT preserving things!

Best practices, on the other hand, are starting to mature.. hopefully we'll
soon be able to implement them in meaningful ways.

Devin says: "That sounds like a complete legal nightmare, but the only way
you can get the information is to actually go out and ask"

I'm working on it!! I have big dreams regarding rousing some enthusiasm from
game developers and publishing houses. Will any of it happen? Who knows. But
I do think that personal negotiation is the only way we're going to get any
type of legal accommodations, or even convince them to start saving more of
their own stuff.



On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 7:35 PM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

> Some number crunching will be useful in the future, might revisit this
> topic if the different people who do digital-based preservation (whatever it
> actually is) can provide the info available with estimates for those others
> who might want to do it in the future - best practices of digital
> preservation too, which a big part is going to likely cost serious money to
> do well :)
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From jmcdonou at uiuc.edu  Wed Jul 29 21:44:28 2009
From: jmcdonou at uiuc.edu (Jerome McDonough)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:44:28 -0500
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A70DCA5.4050108@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>	<op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>	<4A6F3BFF.4020502@stanford.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907281110l4bd0e421v3f265555d941f3b5@mail.gmail.com>	<4A7005F0.9010604@aarmstrong.org>	<4A7085CB.4070304@stanford.edu>	<4A709198.80902@aarmstrong.org>	<4A709A61.4030706@stanford.edu>
	<4A709F2A.4060709@aarmstrong.org>
	<F62FF79C-E21F-4EF5-908A-D77C03C749A9@uiuc.edu>
	<4A70DCA5.4050108@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <60DB267B-1D33-4703-99CF-46D3B67296A6@uiuc.edu>


On Jul 29, 2009, at 6:35 PM, Andrew Armstrong wrote:

> And the question "what is worth preserving from whatever  
> standpoint", well, tough call. Cut film, deleted scenes, alternative  
> angles and shots - knowing how the editing, filming, B-reels,  
> outtakes, repeated shots, storyboard shoots, test shots, location  
> finding, film dailys, camera setup and repeated takes all went is,  
> for those interested in making films, and critics too, I am sure is  
> highly useful if available - although a massive amount of material  
> to store raw. At least as you said with DVD's and bonus content,  
> this is being retained more often. Possibly one way around that is  
> to not store it as perfect quality, which can easily lower it into  
> GB's instead of TB's. :)
>

Bad news on commercial video DVDs.  They use CSS (Content Scrambling  
System) to encrypt content as a technological protection measure.  It  
is easily defeated by a variety of existing tools, BUT, there is no  
exemption for defeating CSS under the DMCA in effect at the moment.   
Any library copying a DVD for preservation purposes is violating the  
law.  So, the only thing you can do if a copy you own goes bad is buy  
another one.  If there isn't one to buy ... tough luck.  Yet another  
reason to focus on the assets before they are packaged up for  
commercial release.


Jerome McDonough, Asst. Professor
Graduate School of Library & Information Science
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
501 E. Daniel Street, Room 202
Champaign, IL 61820
(217) 244-5916
jmcdonou at uiuc.edu





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From mike at multimedia.cx  Wed Jul 29 22:18:47 2009
From: mike at multimedia.cx (Mike Melanson)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 19:18:47 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>
Message-ID: <4A710307.3050804@multimedia.cx>

Mike Melanson wrote:
> As if preservationists didn't have enough to worry about already...
> 
> I have been studying iPhone apps (and games, specifically) pretty 
> carefully recently. In doing so, I realized that certain games used to 
> be available but have apparently vanished from the App Store, probably 
> forever. Quite a daunting challenge considering the single gatekeeper 
> aspect.
> 
> Sure, there's the question of whether most of these iPhone games are 
> worth preserving in the first place.

Fun fact: According to my research, there are currently over 13,000 
titles in the App Store marked "Game". It would cost over US$17,600 to 
purchase all the ones that aren't free.

Don't know if anyone cares. :)

-- 
     -Mike Melanson

From dmonnens at gmail.com  Thu Jul 30 00:31:37 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:31:37 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <4A710307.3050804@multimedia.cx>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx> <4A710307.3050804@multimedia.cx>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50907292131tf2952d7p4c7c05f3e3352c50@mail.gmail.com>

RE: DVDs

You have to remember that DVDs aren't archival quality ot begin with.
Unless, of course, that was the only copy of the video (or there's something
notable about the menu), you ultimately want something with higher quality.
I don't think even Blu-Ray is archival quality for video.

RE: Film size

I am running into the same problem with my masters for Contra versus Contra
and Counting Bees #2. I honestly don't know if I still have the original
files, but I know I have some of them on an external hard drive. It's simply
too big to fit on DVDs economically and it takes up too much of a chunk of a
hard drive to make the drive useful for anything else. If somebody wants to
talk about selling art, I would say selling the disk drive with the master
production files would be the equivalent of digital art simply because it's
too expensive to copy.

Of course, this raises questions about what should be preserved. Arguably,
we can look at either the piece as an entire work of art or as a system of
parts which can be dissembled and used for other purposes, like taking
pieces from a Risk game to make your own prototypes. Essentially, there are
hacking groups who will take files from new 3D games and dump those into
something like Gary's Mod for Half-Life 2. This means fans and hobbyists can
do a lot of neat things with official production models stored within the
games. There is also of course the game music group as well, who extract
audio and video files to listen to those independently. This creates a
separate set of assets.

Again, I think it goes back to some of the basic questions of preservation
which are finding out why you are preserving the stuff and who you are
preserving it for.


>> Sure, there's the question of whether most of these iPhone games are worth
>> preserving in the first place.
>>
>
> Fun fact: According to my research, there are currently over 13,000 titles
> in the App Store marked "Game". It would cost over US$17,600 to purchase all
> the ones that aren't free.
>
> Don't know if anyone cares. :)
>

A drop in the bucket ;-) Seriously, once you have numbers, you can get
funding. That's what Fiona Cherbak tells me. Add the iPhone operating
systems to that as well. I'm sure you could fit every single app on a few
DVDs.

-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From mike at multimedia.cx  Thu Jul 30 01:08:24 2009
From: mike at multimedia.cx (Mike Melanson)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:08:24 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50907292131tf2952d7p4c7c05f3e3352c50@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx> <4A710307.3050804@multimedia.cx>
	<9d1cf2d50907292131tf2952d7p4c7c05f3e3352c50@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A712AC8.7060501@multimedia.cx>

Devin Monnens wrote:
> A drop in the bucket ;-) Seriously, once you have numbers, you can get 
> funding. That's what Fiona Cherbak tells me. Add the iPhone operating 
> systems to that as well. I'm sure you could fit every single app on a 
> few DVDs.

According to my numbers, the entire "game" collection is sitting around 
87 GB. So, sure, given a few double-sided and a dual layer discs...

-- 
     -Mike Melanson

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Thu Jul 30 04:32:21 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:32:21 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] iPhone Game Preservation
In-Reply-To: <60DB267B-1D33-4703-99CF-46D3B67296A6@uiuc.edu>
References: <4A6E8A98.5090007@multimedia.cx>	<op.uxr62kuvfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907280813i2636fe9cy1214460b5f1855d3@mail.gmail.com>	<op.uxsbwwhufmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<4A6F274E.50101@aarmstrong.org>	<4A6F3BFF.4020502@stanford.edu>	<9d1cf2d50907281110l4bd0e421v3f265555d941f3b5@mail.gmail.com>	<4A7005F0.9010604@aarmstrong.org>	<4A7085CB.4070304@stanford.edu>	<4A709198.80902@aarmstrong.org>	<4A709A61.4030706@stanford.edu>	<4A709F2A.4060709@aarmstrong.org>	<F62FF79C-E21F-4EF5-908A-D77C03C749A9@uiuc.edu>	<4A70DCA5.4050108@aarmstrong.org>
	<60DB267B-1D33-4703-99CF-46D3B67296A6@uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <4A715A95.6080104@aarmstrong.org>

Oh, that's certainly the case in the USA. I would have thought film 
archives or industry-helped places would get the raw goods - an 
un-CSS'ed DVD would be easy to get a copy of, despite the poorer quality 
for archival purposes.

Hopefully we'll see the DMCA change, although who knows, that 
"International piracy law" stuff thats so secret looks like it might 
impact worse.

Andrew

Jerome McDonough wrote:
>
> On Jul 29, 2009, at 6:35 PM, Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>
>> And the question "what is worth preserving from whatever standpoint", 
>> well, tough call. Cut film, deleted scenes, alternative angles and 
>> shots - knowing how the editing, filming, B-reels, outtakes, repeated 
>> shots, storyboard shoots, test shots, location finding, film dailys, 
>> camera setup and repeated takes all went is, for those interested in 
>> making films, and critics too, I am sure is highly useful if 
>> available - although a massive amount of material to store raw. At 
>> least as you said with DVD's and bonus content, this is being 
>> retained more often. Possibly one way around that is to not store it 
>> as perfect quality, which can easily lower it into GB's instead of 
>> TB's. :)
>>
>
> Bad news on commercial video DVDs.  They use CSS (Content Scrambling 
> System) to encrypt content as a technological protection measure.  It 
> is easily defeated by a variety of existing tools, BUT, there is no 
> exemption for defeating CSS under the DMCA in effect at the moment. 
>  Any library copying a DVD for preservation purposes is violating the 
> law.  So, the only thing you can do if a copy you own goes bad is buy 
> another one.  If there isn't one to buy ... tough luck.  Yet another 
> reason to focus on the assets before they are packaged up for 
> commercial release.
>
>
> Jerome McDonough, Asst. Professor
> Graduate School of Library & Information Science
> University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
> 501 E. Daniel Street, Room 202
> Champaign, IL 61820
> (217) 244-5916
> jmcdonou at uiuc.edu <mailto:jmcdonou at uiuc.edu>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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