From evilcowclone at gmail.com  Sun Mar  1 11:17:38 2009
From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 09:17:38 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Preservation of analogue game media
In-Reply-To: <49A51A78.7070006@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4C6172A7-4945-4F5E-AE76-CF8AA1E21772@softpres.org>
	<b96706b70902070746r62b2ee84t3ae953031caac921@mail.gmail.com>
	<498DBC31.60402@aarmstrong.org>
	<b96706b70902071359j674cc9b6m924c3453faae313f@mail.gmail.com>
	<65E7BE74-2367-4FA9-ACE3-F920AF417697@softpres.org>
	<53858420-0A5B-4BB4-A0DF-707D42CBD803@softpres.org>
	<49A51A78.7070006@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <b96706b70903010817x7b1a4a4em160148a272e277c6@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Kieron,

Haven't posted any responses as I was on the conference track the past week
- makes it difficult to read things! Anyway, great detail here and it's all
quite fascinating! At first I thought this was for scanning documents ( >.<
) but as I see, it's new information!

Authenticity is a problem that hackers are dealing with, too, which is why a
lot of the sites that rip disc-based games are now including MD5 and CRC
check files. (Unfortunately, I think they are encoding all their audio into
FLAC, which has some advantages, but is not a preservation standard. FLAC
does contain the CRC information of the original WAV though).

Another thing to consider is whether (and sometimes how) to preserve the
copy protection data. I am assuming your backups include these as well?

On another note, I have found very little high-quality Super Mario Bros.
development art on the web despite the fact that it's in tons of magazines
and promo materials. You would think a site like The Mushroom Kingdom would
have it...

Devin


On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:16 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

>  I'm interested in hearing more and how people can help. Responses on this
> mailing list widely vary, and there isn't as many institutions as I'd like
> to see involved here, we'll need to invite more people on :)
>
> Andrew
>
> Kieron Wilkinson wrote:
>
>  I'm not sure how much interest there is in this, but I'll carry on
> regardless. :)
>
>  In my previous post, I summarised what I thought were the technical
> challenges faces in preserving games stored on floppy disk media. I them
> split those points into two categories, which I will now detail further.
>
>  a) Reading the disks in the first place
>
> Getting hold of appropriate disk drives seems to be easy enough for the
> majority of disk types, the problem is getting the raw data off the disk.
> Floppy disks are an analogue storage medium, and data is not directly stored
> as 0's and 1's like on Compact Discs and flash drives, but as magnetic
> polarity changes ('flux transitions'). The problem is that you cannot
> generally read these flux transitions through a computer, as there is
> hardware in the way way to make accessing the data "easier" (and did it's
> job well, but now is a problem for preservation). This "raw" form is the
> ideal thing for preservation. Once you have this, you don't care about disk
> formats or copy protection - you are just doing a raw read of a disk - and
> it all comes along for the ride.
>
>  You might think that if the computer can read the data, there shouldn't a
> problem. Unfortunately that is not the case, the only way to get a computer
> to read particular things is to write it in a special way on special
> hardware, a concept that underlies many copy protection techniques.
>
>
> b) Knowing that what you have read is correct
>
> Secondly, there is knowing whether the disk image you have made is correct.
> There is little point of trying to preserve games if you cannot be sure
> whether those disk images are okay or not. With most types of storage media
> we use today, this is not a problem - the data is checked as it is copied.
> But games on floppy disks are a special case, you often do not know where
> the checksum/integrity information is stored on the disk, and even for known
> disk formats, games developers applied copy protection that deliberately
> wasn't covered by the integrity data. The disks are old already, the data
> may already be broken, and you won't know if you need to find another copy
> without being confident in your disk images.
>
> You cannot play the game to check it, the corruption may not be apparent
> until, say, level 14. Also, how do you know the copy protection passed? It
> is not always obvious. Borrowed Time on the Commodore Amiga has very nice
> protection, if it fails, you can't find some items to allow you to proceed
> in the game, they simply don't appear - and that is not the only example.
>
>  It gets worse, what if somebody modifies a game disk (virus, accident,
> malicious intent, save games)? There will be no corruption, but it certainly
> is no longer an authentic copy suitable for preservation.
>
> I firmly believe that any disk images produced also require some sort of
> checking to be confident in their preservation status. I'll drop a small
> note here that The Software Preservation Society check for all of above for
> every single game preserved (nearly 3000 so far).
>
>
>  I think all that covers the points raised in my last email.
>
>
> With these sorts of difficulties, it is no wonder that game preservation
> (for computers at least) has historically been in such a poor state.
> In my next post, I will detail some new developments that I believe makes
> the future brighter for everybody.
>
> If anyone has any comments on any of this, please feel free to chime in
> with your thoughts.
> Kieron
>
>
>  On 13 Feb 2009, at 23:05, Kieron Wilkinson wrote:
>
>
>  Since I have been away for a while, I was trying to get a feel for how
> things have changed, and I thought this was a good place to start. I guess
> there doesn't seem to be many people here involved with that side of things,
> perhaps it is still very much an ad-hoc process.
>
> As I said before, there does seem to be a number of common technical
> problems in preserving game media. Here are the ones I can think of:
>
>  1) Devices required to read the disks
>  2) The different and custom disk formats in use (I don't mean the
> physical disk format here, but how the software data is structured on the
> disk)
> 3) The presence of any disk-based copy protection (the whole purpose of
> which is to hide itself)
> 4) Degradation of original disks, leading to corrupted reads
> 5) Authenticity (ensuring disks are original and unmodified)
>
> I'd like to cover these points as two distinct problems...
>
> a) Reading the disks in the first place (points 1, 2 and 3).
> b) Knowing that what you have read is preservable (points 4 and 5, but also
> involves 2 and 3).
>
> I don't want to go into too much detail in one post, so I will leave it at
> this for now, and follow up this two issues separately later.
>
> If anyone has any comments on any of this, please feel free to chime in
> with your thoughts.
> Kieron
>
>    ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>


-- 
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

"Until next time..."
Captain Commando
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090301/79c0d846/attachment.html>

From lists at softpres.org  Sun Mar  1 16:58:18 2009
From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 21:58:18 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] Preservation of analogue game media (disks)
In-Reply-To: <b96706b70903010817x7b1a4a4em160148a272e277c6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6172A7-4945-4F5E-AE76-CF8AA1E21772@softpres.org>
	<b96706b70902070746r62b2ee84t3ae953031caac921@mail.gmail.com>
	<498DBC31.60402@aarmstrong.org>
	<b96706b70902071359j674cc9b6m924c3453faae313f@mail.gmail.com>
	<65E7BE74-2367-4FA9-ACE3-F920AF417697@softpres.org>
	<53858420-0A5B-4BB4-A0DF-707D42CBD803@softpres.org>
	<49A51A78.7070006@aarmstrong.org>
	<b96706b70903010817x7b1a4a4em160148a272e277c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AB6CC362-C222-4AA6-8944-C543CD02C851@softpres.org>

Hi Devin,

Yes, I'm being very confusing, sorry. Maybe I should have said  
"analogue game disks" in the title, otherwise it could be confused  
with cassette tapes too. Just to make myself clear to everyone, I'm  
talking about floppy disks, such as the 3.5" and 5.25" variety - I  
just meant analogue in the sense of how the technology works. I don't  
mind people not replying though, I'm building up to something and it's  
good to get this stuff down in writing for other places like our  
website.

Authenticity. All good points. I guess the particular problem with  
disks is that on many of them you don't know where the CRC info is, or  
what the algorithm is, and so if the disk has errors, you have a  
problem because you can't tell. Our disk imaging software reads and  
stores each track 5 times, and we *still* find that perhaps, 5-10% of  
games need to be imaged again, or simply have unrecoverable errors.  
So, it is a good thing we do check :)

Copy protection data. I think that generally, if you need to treat  
(disk-based) copy protection in a special way when imaging floppy  
disks, you are doing it wrong :) However, you are absolutely right  
that when you are checking that the disk image is correct and  
authentic, the copy protection should be included in that checking,  
and stored in any resulting image file.

Kieron

On 1 Mar 2009, at 16:17, Devin Monnens wrote:

> Hi Kieron,
>
> Haven't posted any responses as I was on the conference track the  
> past week - makes it difficult to read things! Anyway, great detail  
> here and it's all quite fascinating! At first I thought this was for  
> scanning documents ( >.< ) but as I see, it's new information!
>
> Authenticity is a problem that hackers are dealing with, too, which  
> is why a lot of the sites that rip disc-based games are now  
> including MD5 and CRC check files. (Unfortunately, I think they are  
> encoding all their audio into FLAC, which has some advantages, but  
> is not a preservation standard. FLAC does contain the CRC  
> information of the original WAV though).
>
> Another thing to consider is whether (and sometimes how) to preserve  
> the copy protection data. I am assuming your backups include these  
> as well?
>
> On another note, I have found very little high-quality Super Mario  
> Bros. development art on the web despite the fact that it's in tons  
> of magazines and promo materials. You would think a site like The  
> Mushroom Kingdom would have it...
>
> Devin
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:16 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org 
> > wrote:
> I'm interested in hearing more and how people can help. Responses on  
> this mailing list widely vary, and there isn't as many institutions  
> as I'd like to see involved here, we'll need to invite more people  
> on :)
>
> Andrew
>
> Kieron Wilkinson wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure how much interest there is in this, but I'll carry on  
>> regardless. :)
>>
>> In my previous post, I summarised what I thought were the technical  
>> challenges faces in preserving games stored on floppy disk media. I  
>> them split those points into two categories, which I will now  
>> detail further.
>>
>> a) Reading the disks in the first place
>>
>> Getting hold of appropriate disk drives seems to be easy enough for  
>> the majority of disk types, the problem is getting the raw data off  
>> the disk. Floppy disks are an analogue storage medium, and data is  
>> not directly stored as 0's and 1's like on Compact Discs and flash  
>> drives, but as magnetic polarity changes ('flux transitions'). The  
>> problem is that you cannot generally read these flux transitions  
>> through a computer, as there is hardware in the way way to make  
>> accessing the data "easier" (and did it's job well, but now is a  
>> problem for preservation). This "raw" form is the ideal thing for  
>> preservation. Once you have this, you don't care about disk formats  
>> or copy protection - you are just doing a raw read of a disk - and  
>> it all comes along for the ride.
>>
>> You might think that if the computer can read the data, there  
>> shouldn't a problem. Unfortunately that is not the case, the only  
>> way to get a computer to read particular things is to write it in a  
>> special way on special hardware, a concept that underlies many copy  
>> protection techniques.
>>
>>
>> b) Knowing that what you have read is correct
>>
>> Secondly, there is knowing whether the disk image you have made is  
>> correct. There is little point of trying to preserve games if you  
>> cannot be sure whether those disk images are okay or not. With most  
>> types of storage media we use today, this is not a problem - the  
>> data is checked as it is copied. But games on floppy disks are a  
>> special case, you often do not know where the checksum/integrity  
>> information is stored on the disk, and even for known disk formats,  
>> games developers applied copy protection that deliberately wasn't  
>> covered by the integrity data. The disks are old already, the data  
>> may already be broken, and you won't know if you need to find  
>> another copy without being confident in your disk images.
>>
>> You cannot play the game to check it, the corruption may not be  
>> apparent until, say, level 14. Also, how do you know the copy  
>> protection passed? It is not always obvious. Borrowed Time on the  
>> Commodore Amiga has very nice protection, if it fails, you can't  
>> find some items to allow you to proceed in the game, they simply  
>> don't appear - and that is not the only example.
>>
>> It gets worse, what if somebody modifies a game disk (virus,  
>> accident, malicious intent, save games)? There will be no  
>> corruption, but it certainly is no longer an authentic copy  
>> suitable for preservation.
>>
>> I firmly believe that any disk images produced also require some  
>> sort of checking to be confident in their preservation status. I'll  
>> drop a small note here that The Software Preservation Society check  
>> for all of above for every single game preserved (nearly 3000 so  
>> far).
>>
>>
>> I think all that covers the points raised in my last email.
>>
>>
>> With these sorts of difficulties, it is no wonder that game  
>> preservation (for computers at least) has historically been in such  
>> a poor state.
>> In my next post, I will detail some new developments that I believe  
>> makes the future brighter for everybody.
>>
>> If anyone has any comments on any of this, please feel free to  
>> chime in with your thoughts.
>> Kieron
>>
>>
>> On 13 Feb 2009, at 23:05, Kieron Wilkinson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Since I have been away for a while, I was trying to get a feel for  
>>> how things have changed, and I thought this was a good place to  
>>> start. I guess there doesn't seem to be many people here involved  
>>> with that side of things, perhaps it is still very much an ad-hoc  
>>> process.
>>>
>>> As I said before, there does seem to be a number of common  
>>> technical problems in preserving game media. Here are the ones I  
>>> can think of:
>>>
>>> 1) Devices required to read the disks
>>> 2) The different and custom disk formats in use (I don't mean the  
>>> physical disk format here, but how the software data is structured  
>>> on the disk)
>>> 3) The presence of any disk-based copy protection (the whole  
>>> purpose of which is to hide itself)
>>> 4) Degradation of original disks, leading to corrupted reads
>>> 5) Authenticity (ensuring disks are original and unmodified)
>>>
>>> I'd like to cover these points as two distinct problems...
>>>
>>> a) Reading the disks in the first place (points 1, 2 and 3).
>>> b) Knowing that what you have read is preservable (points 4 and 5,  
>>> but also involves 2 and 3).
>>>
>>> I don't want to go into too much detail in one post, so I will  
>>> leave it at this for now, and follow up this two issues separately  
>>> later.
>>>
>>> If anyone has any comments on any of this, please feel free to  
>>> chime in with your thoughts.
>>> Kieron
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>
> "Until next time..."
> Captain Commando
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090301/45989e28/attachment.html>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sun Mar  1 17:05:08 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 22:05:08 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] [Monthly SIG Roundup] March 2009
Message-ID: <49AB0694.90503@aarmstrong.org>

White paper work has gone on strongly and GDC is looming!


      Preservation SIG February 2009 Work

The white paper "Before It's Too Late: A Digital Game Preservation White 
Paper 
<http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_Paper/Before_It%27s_Too_Late:_A_Digital_Game_Preservation_White_Paper>" 
is now nearly complete, there is some more editing to do and printing to 
take care of before GDC. Good work all who has contributed to it! we'll 
release a digital copy to the SIG and public when we can :)

The SIG also has a logo, finally. I finished up the design, and is shown 
proudly on our wiki page 
<http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG>. I'll be sure to get it 
on future content, new IGDA site pages, and whatever else I can.

At the Internet Archive we have two major changes - contributions to the 
videogame footage collection 
<http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Satakore.com%22> 
from Satakore.com <http://www.satakore.com/>, a Sega site.

Secondly, we have been working on the new section for game patches 
<http://www.archive.org/details/gamepatches>. This is currently having 
bits and pieces added to it (so I can get up to speed on the kind of 
thing which is a good idea to do for items - patch notes, etc.). Help 
would be welcome, so if anyone has a large collection of patches, 
especially for older titles, getting them to me or uploading them would 
be a great help. Contact me or Simon (simon -at- archive -dot- org) to 
offer help.

We also have had some interest for starting up the Oral Histories 
project for real, at least in collaboration with existing efforts in the 
area - Dean O'Donnell from Worcester Polytechnic Institute. The 
collectors information project might also get some help from Stuart 
Feldhamer, thank you both!

Finally, Dan Pinchbeck from Portsmouth University has got some 
preservation panel work to be offered to DiGRA <http://www.digra.org/>, 
one item will be the white paper, and some other related research of 
course. The actual event is at Brunel University, West London 1st - 4th 
of September 2009, a date for your diaries if you're in the UK.


      Future Work for March 2009

Major items to get done in March include preparing for GDC. We'll make 
sure to advertise when the extra meeting session will be, the roundtable 
has been confirmed to be Friday (March 27, 2009), 2:30pm --- 3:30pm 
<https://www.cmpevents.com/GD09/a.asp?option=G&V=3&id=99189>. Catch us 
there if possible!

I personally am also going to report on Byte-Back 
<http://byte-back.info/> next weekend, and finally play some more old 
videogames. I certainly don't do enough in that regard!


      Mailing List Discussions

If you've not joined our mailing list 
<http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation>, please do 
so. We've never tried using our forums it seems :) we stick to 
old-fangled email.

This month 
<http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/2009-February/thread.html> 
we have discussions on an extra GDC meeting 
<http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/2009-February/000817.html>, 
the aforementioned collectors project 
<http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/2009-February/000822.html> 
and oral histories 
<http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/2009-February/000845.html>, 
as well as a lot around KEEP 
<http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/2009-February/000834.html>. 


There is also sad discussion on HOTU 
<http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/2009-February/000890.html> 
(Home of the Underdogs) shutting down, and an interesting discussion 
started on preserving analogue media correctly 
<http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/2009-February/000858.html>. 
Contributions to the latter discussion welcomed this month!


      Preservation SIG Blog Updates / Links

/Have I missed anything this month? Then email it in to 
preservation_news @ igda.org !/

*Note*: this month I've been terribly lax. I've got 300+ things just in 
my RSS feeds to check out, so expect more news on the blog next month.

    * The National Videogame Archive Updates and My Report
      <http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2009/03/the_national_vi.html>

    * Retroaction - Retro Gaming Mag
      <http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2009/02/retroaction_ret.html>

    * Ask the Game Trust: The First Game You Bought
      <http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2009/02/ask_the_game_tr.html>

    * Home of the Underdogs Website Hosting Ceased
      <http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2009/02/home_of_the_und.html>

    * The Trough of No Value
      <http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2009/02/the_trough_of_n.html>

    * I'm Back!
      <http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2009/02/im_back.html>
    * European Project KEEP - Keeping emulation environments portable
      <http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2009/02/european_projec.html>

    * On Daikatana
      <http://www.igda.org/preservation/archives/2009/02/on_daikatana.html>


      Final Thoughts

Hopefully we'll see some of the SIG gather at GDC :) should be fun!

Andrew Armstrong

IGDA Game Preservation SIG Site/Blog editor

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090301/daf55d5d/attachment.html>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sun Mar  1 17:09:41 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 22:09:41 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] [Monthly SIG Roundup] March 2009
In-Reply-To: <49AB0694.90503@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49AB0694.90503@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <49AB07A5.3040204@aarmstrong.org>

Just to note; the time and day of the roundtable is noted (Friday (March 
27, 2009), 2:30pm ? 3:30pm), but Henry, were you able to secure an 
additional meeting for the SIG to discuss things by itself? :)

Andrew

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> White paper work has gone on strongly and GDC is looming!

From evilcowclone at gmail.com  Sun Mar  1 17:43:47 2009
From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 15:43:47 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] [Monthly SIG Roundup] March 2009
In-Reply-To: <49AB07A5.3040204@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49AB0694.90503@aarmstrong.org> <49AB07A5.3040204@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <b96706b70903011443m7d11bef0g8e9ff11578ed45f5@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, I second that. I also vote after we get the times for all these
meetings scheduled 100% to post a separate note to the list asking who is
going to the GDC and is interested in attending any panels related to
Preservation.

On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

> Just to note; the time and day of the roundtable is noted (Friday (March
> 27, 2009), 2:30pm ? 3:30pm), but Henry, were you able to secure an
> additional meeting for the SIG to discuss things by itself? :)
>
> Andrew
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>
>> White paper work has gone on strongly and GDC is looming!
>>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>



-- 
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

"Until next time..."
Captain Commando
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090301/dff12080/attachment.html>

From lowood at stanford.edu  Sun Mar  1 18:40:20 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 15:40:20 -0800
Subject: [game_preservation] [Monthly SIG Roundup] March 2009
In-Reply-To: <49AB07A5.3040204@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49AB0694.90503@aarmstrong.org> <49AB07A5.3040204@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <49AB1CE4.5020509@stanford.edu>

Hi Andrew,

No, I was waiting for the roundtable date to be pinned down, which must 
have just happened.  Jason said just last week that it would be another 
week.

Hmm, Friday afternoon.  Well, let's hope for a good turnout anyway.

I'll write to Jason about another time for us.   Ideally, it would have 
been after the roundtable meeting, as a follow-up, but unless I ask for 
Friday at 3.30pm, it will be before.   Any thoughts?  

Henry

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> Just to note; the time and day of the roundtable is noted (Friday 
> (March 27, 2009), 2:30pm ? 3:30pm), but Henry, were you able to secure 
> an additional meeting for the SIG to discuss things by itself? :)
>
> Andrew
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>> White paper work has gone on strongly and GDC is looming!
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090301/db35ac9b/attachment.html>

From lowood at stanford.edu  Sun Mar  1 18:41:50 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 15:41:50 -0800
Subject: [game_preservation] [Monthly SIG Roundup] March 2009
In-Reply-To: <49AB1CE4.5020509@stanford.edu>
References: <49AB0694.90503@aarmstrong.org> <49AB07A5.3040204@aarmstrong.org>
	<49AB1CE4.5020509@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <49AB1D3E.3010402@stanford.edu>

I better clarify my earlier note, by "another time for us," I did NOT 
mean changing the roundtable, but a time for a second private SIG 
meeting on specific topics.  I have one topic from the NDIIPP project, 
plus there have been a few others in discussion on the list.

Henry

Henry Lowood wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
>
> No, I was waiting for the roundtable date to be pinned down, which 
> must have just happened.  Jason said just last week that it would be 
> another week.
>
> Hmm, Friday afternoon.  Well, let's hope for a good turnout anyway.
>
> I'll write to Jason about another time for us.   Ideally, it would 
> have been after the roundtable meeting, as a follow-up, but unless I 
> ask for Friday at 3.30pm, it will be before.   Any thoughts?  
>
> Henry
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>> Just to note; the time and day of the roundtable is noted (Friday 
>> (March 27, 2009), 2:30pm ? 3:30pm), but Henry, were you able to 
>> secure an additional meeting for the SIG to discuss things by itself? :)
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>> White paper work has gone on strongly and GDC is looming!
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
> -- 
> Henry Lowood
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>      Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library
> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
> lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090301/8a255e69/attachment.htm>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Mon Mar  2 06:17:51 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 11:17:51 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] [Monthly SIG Roundup] March 2009
In-Reply-To: <49AB1CE4.5020509@stanford.edu>
References: <49AB0694.90503@aarmstrong.org> <49AB07A5.3040204@aarmstrong.org>
	<49AB1CE4.5020509@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <49ABC05F.5020307@aarmstrong.org>

Before is fine I guess! :) will have to be. Just the luck of the draw 
for getting that time (better then 9AM on Wednesday or clashing with a 
keynote anyway!).

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> I'll write to Jason about another time for us.   Ideally, it would 
> have been after the roundtable meeting, as a follow-up, but unless I 
> ask for Friday at 3.30pm, it will be before.   Any thoughts?  
>
> Henry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090302/bd510857/attachment.html>

From chris at artfulgamer.com  Mon Mar  2 12:25:11 2009
From: chris at artfulgamer.com (Chris Lepine)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:25:11 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Request: scan of Oregon Trail (RETRY)
References: <DD520ACF-A7F5-4827-8DC3-95793255569E@ualberta.ca>
Message-ID: <1A9D5B86-0739-46B2-AF78-CA70EA307E81@artfulgamer.com>

I sent this message in last week, and for some reason it was not  
posted to the mailing list. (Dammit, I just checked, and I had sent  
it from the wrong e-mail account. My apologies.)

Devin - By the way, I tried e-mailing you the same information last  
week and got no response.

- Chris

> From: Chris Lepine <cblepine at ualberta.ca>
> Date: February 24, 2009 12:09:19 AM MST (CA)
> To: game_preservation at igda.org
> Subject: Re: Request: scan of Oregon Trail (Devin Monnens)
>
> Hi Devin,
>
> I scanned the label at 600 dpi to be on the safer side, since I was  
> not sure what resolution you'd need for the article:
>
> http://www.artfulgamer.com/images/otraildisk.png
>
> Let me know if that is sufficient.
> - Chris
>
>> From: Chris Lepine <chris at artfulgamer.com>
>> Date: February 23, 2009 12:32:15 PM MST (CA)
>> To: game_preservation at igda.org
>> Subject: Re: Request: scan of Oregon Trail (Devin Monnens)
>>
>> Hi Devin,
>>
>> I'll send in a scan late this evening, unless someone else can do  
>> it sooner.
>>
>> - Chris
>>
>> ---
>> The Artful Gamer: In Search of the Lyrical and Poetic in Video Games
>> http://www.artfulgamer.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On 23-Feb-09, at 10:00 AM, game_preservation-request at igda.org wrote:
>>
>>> Request: scan of Oregon Trail (Devin Monnens)
>>
>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090302/ca91af3c/attachment.html>

From evilcowclone at gmail.com  Mon Mar  2 14:58:35 2009
From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 12:58:35 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Request: scan of Oregon Trail (RETRY)
In-Reply-To: <1A9D5B86-0739-46B2-AF78-CA70EA307E81@artfulgamer.com>
References: <DD520ACF-A7F5-4827-8DC3-95793255569E@ualberta.ca>
	<1A9D5B86-0739-46B2-AF78-CA70EA307E81@artfulgamer.com>
Message-ID: <b96706b70903021158g67b7017cg206f638df32af0da@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry Chris. Had a conference in Albuquerque, so it passed my mind. I
forwarded the link to my friend though and he is trying to find time to
integrate it into the cover.

Devin

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Chris Lepine <chris at artfulgamer.com> wrote:

>  I sent this message in last week, and for some reason it was not posted
> to the mailing list. (Dammit, I just checked, and I had sent it from the
> wrong e-mail account. My apologies.)
>
> Devin - By the way, I tried e-mailing you the same information last week
> and got no response.
>
> - Chris
>
>  *From: *Chris Lepine <cblepine at ualberta.ca>
> *Date: *February 24, 2009 12:09:19 AM MST (CA)
> *To: *game_preservation at igda.org
> *Subject: **Re: Request: scan of Oregon Trail (Devin Monnens)*
>
> Hi Devin,
>
> I scanned the label at 600 dpi to be on the safer side, since I was not
> sure what resolution you'd need for the article:
>
> http://www.artfulgamer.com/images/otraildisk.png
>
> Let me know if that is sufficient.
> - Chris
>
>  *From: *Chris Lepine <chris at artfulgamer.com>
> *Date: *February 23, 2009 12:32:15 PM MST (CA)
> *To: *game_preservation at igda.org
> *Subject: **Re: Request: scan of Oregon Trail (Devin Monnens)*
>
> Hi Devin,
>
> I'll send in a scan late this evening, unless someone else can do it
> sooner.
>
> - Chris
>
>   ---
> The Artful Gamer: In Search of the Lyrical and Poetic in Video Games
> http://www.artfulgamer.com
>
>
>
>  On 23-Feb-09, at 10:00 AM, game_preservation-request at igda.org wrote:
>
>  Request: scan of Oregon Trail (Devin Monnens)
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>


-- 
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

"Until next time..."
Captain Commando
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090302/71138b72/attachment.html>

From lowood at stanford.edu  Mon Mar  2 17:50:09 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 14:50:09 -0800
Subject: [game_preservation] [Monthly SIG Roundup] March 2009
In-Reply-To: <49ABC05F.5020307@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49AB0694.90503@aarmstrong.org>
	<49AB07A5.3040204@aarmstrong.org>	<49AB1CE4.5020509@stanford.edu>
	<49ABC05F.5020307@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <49AC62A1.8000803@stanford.edu>

Ok, I have looked over the program, and I will ask Jason if any of these 
times are available for the "private" SIG meeting:

Th 1.30, Th 4.30, F 1.30

We'll see what we get.

Henry

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> Before is fine I guess! :) will have to be. Just the luck of the draw 
> for getting that time (better then 9AM on Wednesday or clashing with a 
> keynote anyway!).
>
> Andrew
>
> Henry Lowood wrote:
>> I'll write to Jason about another time for us.   Ideally, it would 
>> have been after the roundtable meeting, as a follow-up, but unless I 
>> ask for Friday at 3.30pm, it will be before.   Any thoughts?  
>>
>> Henry
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090302/39ed504f/attachment.htm>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Mon Mar  2 18:06:22 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 23:06:22 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] [Monthly SIG Roundup] March 2009
In-Reply-To: <49AC62A1.8000803@stanford.edu>
References: <49AB0694.90503@aarmstrong.org>	<49AB07A5.3040204@aarmstrong.org>	<49AB1CE4.5020509@stanford.edu>	<49ABC05F.5020307@aarmstrong.org>
	<49AC62A1.8000803@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <49AC666E.3040101@aarmstrong.org>

K, should be good at any of those times - if anyone here has students 
they know going, make sure they come to my meetup ;) it's Friday at 
12-1PM (great, lunch gone :) ) which is fine for these times.

Closer to the date we might want to take notes from anyone wanting to 
suggest something who can't make the meeting - I'll create a new thread 
for this in a week or something.

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> Ok, I have looked over the program, and I will ask Jason if any of 
> these times are available for the "private" SIG meeting:
>
> Th 1.30, Th 4.30, F 1.30
>
> We'll see what we get.
>
> Henry
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>> Before is fine I guess! :) will have to be. Just the luck of the draw 
>> for getting that time (better then 9AM on Wednesday or clashing with 
>> a keynote anyway!).
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Henry Lowood wrote:
>>> I'll write to Jason about another time for us.   Ideally, it would 
>>> have been after the roundtable meeting, as a follow-up, but unless I 
>>> ask for Friday at 3.30pm, it will be before.   Any thoughts?  
>>>
>>> Henry
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
>
> -- 
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>  Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090302/bc02c7c0/attachment.html>

From lowood at stanford.edu  Tue Mar  3 02:30:51 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 23:30:51 -0800
Subject: [game_preservation] Private SIG meeting at GDC
Message-ID: <49ACDCAB.6070907@stanford.edu>

All,

Here is some information about the Game Preservation SIG's activities at 
GDC.

First, the annual roundtable is part of the GDC program.  It will take 
place on Friday, the 27th, from 2.30 to 3.30pm, Room 113, in North 
Hall.  This meeting is open to all.

Second, this year we will have a private meeting for SIG members and 
others who know about it.  :-)   This meeting will take place just 
before the roundtable, from 1.30pm to 2.30pm, in the IGDA's luxurious 
private meeting room. The location just happens to be Room 112, right 
next door.

I have a couple of agenda items for the private meeting from the NDIIPP 
project (the Library of Congress project, as some know it).  In the 
public meeting, we will review the year's activities and plan for next 
year.  If you have agenda items, please send them to me and I'll gather 
everything up for the meeting(s).

Henry

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090302/ffb7e239/attachment.html>

From evilcowclone at gmail.com  Tue Mar  3 09:53:54 2009
From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 07:53:54 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Private SIG meeting at GDC
In-Reply-To: <49ACDCAB.6070907@stanford.edu>
References: <49ACDCAB.6070907@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <b96706b70903030653m2b22d7aas365b5d5350d080ad@mail.gmail.com>

I will be at the IGDA Charter meetings on...Monday I think it is. One of
them is International Best Practices where I hope to bring some things up
about networking between chapters nationally and internationally to better
help coordinate contacts among IGDA members travelling or moving between
chapters and for national and international SIG projects such as
Preservation and the Memorials Project. (This and I get a $50 stipend and a
meal for just being there!)

There are a couple of interesting-looking panels going on at the same time
as the SIG, but one of them is done by Ian Bogost, who I know and could
probably get presentation details from. He's probably mainly pimping his new
book about the 2600, which should go on the resource list anyway. Too bad he
can't attend, but I'll see if he can make it to the super-secret lunch
meeting if he isn't too busy prepping. (You do know that 1:30-2:30 is
lunchtime, right? Are we going to have those nasty boxed lunches again, or
are they gonna give us some REAL food?).

Devin

On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:30 AM, Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu> wrote:

>  All,
>
> Here is some information about the Game Preservation SIG's activities at
> GDC.
>
> First, the annual roundtable is part of the GDC program.  It will take
> place on Friday, the 27th, from 2.30 to 3.30pm, Room 113, in North Hall.
> This meeting is open to all.
>
> Second, this year we will have a private meeting for SIG members and others
> who know about it.  :-)   This meeting will take place just before the
> roundtable, from 1.30pm to 2.30pm, in the IGDA's luxurious private meeting
> room. The location just happens to be Room 112, right next door.
>
> I have a couple of agenda items for the private meeting from the NDIIPP
> project (the Library of Congress project, as some know it).  In the public
> meeting, we will review the year's activities and plan for next year.  If
> you have agenda items, please send them to me and I'll gather everything up
> for the meeting(s).
>
> Henry
>
> --
> Henry Lowood
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>      Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library
> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USAhttp://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>


-- 
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

"Until next time..."
Captain Commando
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090303/9cb4e52c/attachment.htm>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Tue Mar  3 09:57:16 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 14:57:16 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] Private SIG meeting at GDC
In-Reply-To: <b96706b70903030653m2b22d7aas365b5d5350d080ad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49ACDCAB.6070907@stanford.edu>
	<b96706b70903030653m2b22d7aas365b5d5350d080ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49AD454C.7030105@aarmstrong.org>

I'll be grabbing one to eat there, heh. I've got a half-hour after my 
meetup and before these sessions. You might be glad it's in a box if 
you're busy.

Lunchtime is variable in any case, there's not a great amount of time 
which isn't sessions - I note now they are doing more random times this 
year, unless last year they had things starting and ending on the 
half-hour mark often.

Andrew

Devin Monnens wrote:
> I will be at the IGDA Charter meetings on...Monday I think it is. One 
> of them is International Best Practices where I hope to bring some 
> things up about networking between chapters nationally and 
> internationally to better help coordinate contacts among IGDA members 
> travelling or moving between chapters and for national and 
> international SIG projects such as Preservation and the Memorials 
> Project. (This and I get a $50 stipend and a meal for just being there!)
>
> There are a couple of interesting-looking panels going on at the same 
> time as the SIG, but one of them is done by Ian Bogost, who I know and 
> could probably get presentation details from. He's probably mainly 
> pimping his new book about the 2600, which should go on the resource 
> list anyway. Too bad he can't attend, but I'll see if he can make it 
> to the super-secret lunch meeting if he isn't too busy prepping. (You 
> do know that 1:30-2:30 is lunchtime, right? Are we going to have those 
> nasty boxed lunches again, or are they gonna give us some REAL food?).
>
> Devin
>
> On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:30 AM, Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu 
> <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>> wrote:
>
>     All,
>
>     Here is some information about the Game Preservation SIG's
>     activities at GDC.
>
>     First, the annual roundtable is part of the GDC program.  It will
>     take place on Friday, the 27th, from 2.30 to 3.30pm, Room 113, in
>     North Hall.  This meeting is open to all.
>
>     Second, this year we will have a private meeting for SIG members
>     and others who know about it.  :-)   This meeting will take place
>     just before the roundtable, from 1.30pm to 2.30pm, in the IGDA's
>     luxurious private meeting room. The location just happens to be
>     Room 112, right next door.
>
>     I have a couple of agenda items for the private meeting from the
>     NDIIPP project (the Library of Congress project, as some know
>     it).  In the public meeting, we will review the year's activities
>     and plan for next year.  If you have agenda items, please send
>     them to me and I'll gather everything up for the meeting(s).
>
>     Henry
>
>     -- 
>     Henry Lowood
>     Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>          Film & Media Collections
>     HRG, Green Library
>     557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
>     Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
>     http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>     lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 650-723-4602
>         
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>
> "Until next time..."
> Captain Commando
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090303/df8a0a28/attachment.html>

From donahrm at gmail.com  Tue Mar  3 11:47:52 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue)
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 11:47:52 -0500
Subject: [game_preservation] A sad day for arcade games
Message-ID: <op.up7592hqfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>

Someone posted in the RPGnet forums:

"What were arcades like?
I was reading about arcades and how you'd have to queue to play popular  
games as well as follow rules like no throwing in fighting game or the  
others wouldn't let you play. This seems rather strange. The money cost  
must have gotten expensive pretty quickly as well. I'm not old enough to  
have been to them when they were around so I'm curious about what they  
were like."

*sobs*

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=440112


-Rach

From chris at artfulgamer.com  Tue Mar  3 12:05:15 2009
From: chris at artfulgamer.com (Chris Lepine)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:05:15 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Request: scan of Oregon Trail (RETRY)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.33.1236099645.59646.game_preservation@igda.org>
References: <mailman.33.1236099645.59646.game_preservation@igda.org>
Message-ID: <F6A381F1-CD5A-4380-91FF-A820FB8DE5FB@artfulgamer.com>

Glad it made it through.

- Chris

>
> Sorry Chris. Had a conference in Albuquerque, so it passed my mind. I
> forwarded the link to my friend though and he is trying to find  
> time to
> integrate it into the cover.
>
> Devin
>


From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Tue Mar  3 13:03:27 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 18:03:27 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] A sad day for arcade games
In-Reply-To: <op.up7592hqfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
References: <op.up7592hqfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <49AD70EF.3020301@aarmstrong.org>

They're certainly getting much much rarer, even in steadfast areas like 
Japan (Sega closed or has plans to close something like half of them 
there right?)

Not many good ones left in the UK that's for sure. The Trocadero is not 
very good apart from there are a fair few machines, and worth going to 
once or twice.

Need some kind of work put into documenting them. Wasn't Jason Scott 
going to do a pinball or arcade documentary next? and I am sure I saw 
some books and sites dedicated to it recently.

Andrew

Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
> Someone posted in the RPGnet forums:
>
> "What were arcades like?
> I was reading about arcades and how you'd have to queue to play 
> popular games as well as follow rules like no throwing in fighting 
> game or the others wouldn't let you play. This seems rather strange. 
> The money cost must have gotten expensive pretty quickly as well. I'm 
> not old enough to have been to them when they were around so I'm 
> curious about what they were like."
>
> *sobs*
>
> http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=440112
>
>
> -Rach
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

From dodo at WPI.EDU  Tue Mar  3 13:25:02 2009
From: dodo at WPI.EDU (O'Donnell, Dean M)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 13:25:02 -0500
Subject: [game_preservation] A sad day for arcade games
In-Reply-To: <49AD70EF.3020301@aarmstrong.org>
References: <op.up7592hqfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
	<49AD70EF.3020301@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <E439BFE543DA0F429E47C476F37FDD9A15492E3B5F@EXCHANGEMAIL.admin.wpi.edu>

Jason talks about a documentary called "Tilt" which is a history of pinball machines, but currently he's working on a history of text adventures called "Get Lamp."

Tilt's website: http://www.tilt-movie.com/ 

I live a mere two hours from Funspot, so once a year I go for my arcade fix.  It seems to me the arcade really lives at the beach.  We go to the Maine coast every summer and there are numerous arcades near every beach.

Dean

____________________________________________ 
Dean O'Donnell???? Associate Director, 
Interactive Media and Game Development 
Dept. of Humanities and Arts?? WPI 
dodo at wpi.edu 
Phone: 508-831-5947 
Fax: 508-831-5932 


-----Original Message-----
From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Armstrong
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 1:03 PM
To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG
Subject: Re: [game_preservation] A sad day for arcade games

They're certainly getting much much rarer, even in steadfast areas like 
Japan (Sega closed or has plans to close something like half of them 
there right?)

Not many good ones left in the UK that's for sure. The Trocadero is not 
very good apart from there are a fair few machines, and worth going to 
once or twice.

Need some kind of work put into documenting them. Wasn't Jason Scott 
going to do a pinball or arcade documentary next? and I am sure I saw 
some books and sites dedicated to it recently.

Andrew

Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
> Someone posted in the RPGnet forums:
>
> "What were arcades like?
> I was reading about arcades and how you'd have to queue to play 
> popular games as well as follow rules like no throwing in fighting 
> game or the others wouldn't let you play. This seems rather strange. 
> The money cost must have gotten expensive pretty quickly as well. I'm 
> not old enough to have been to them when they were around so I'm 
> curious about what they were like."
>
> *sobs*
>
> http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=440112
>
>
> -Rach
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
_______________________________________________
game_preservation mailing list
game_preservation at igda.org
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

From donahrm at gmail.com  Tue Mar  3 13:31:37 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue)
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 13:31:37 -0500
Subject: [game_preservation] A sad day for arcade games
In-Reply-To: <E439BFE543DA0F429E47C476F37FDD9A15492E3B5F@EXCHANGEMAIL.admin.wpi.edu>
References: <op.up7592hqfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
	<49AD70EF.3020301@aarmstrong.org>
	<E439BFE543DA0F429E47C476F37FDD9A15492E3B5F@EXCHANGEMAIL.admin.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <op.up8a2zgdfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>

Funspot is truly the king of arcades. I must also admit a fondness for the  
"barcades" like Jillian's, Dave & Busters, etc. Beer AND House of the  
Dead? Yes, please.

On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 13:25:02 -0500, O'Donnell, Dean M <dodo at wpi.edu> wrote:

> Jason talks about a documentary called "Tilt" which is a history of  
> pinball machines, but currently he's working on a history of text  
> adventures called "Get Lamp."
>
> Tilt's website: http://www.tilt-movie.com/
>
> I live a mere two hours from Funspot, so once a year I go for my arcade  
> fix.  It seems to me the arcade really lives at the beach.  We go to the  
> Maine coast every summer and there are numerous arcades near every beach.
>
> Dean
>
> ____________________________________________
> Dean O'Donnell???? Associate Director,
> Interactive Media and Game Development
> Dept. of Humanities and Arts?? WPI
> dodo at wpi.edu
> Phone: 508-831-5947
> Fax: 508-831-5932
>

From lowood at stanford.edu  Tue Mar  3 14:07:28 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 11:07:28 -0800
Subject: [game_preservation] Private SIG meeting at GDC
In-Reply-To: <b96706b70903030653m2b22d7aas365b5d5350d080ad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49ACDCAB.6070907@stanford.edu>
	<b96706b70903030653m2b22d7aas365b5d5350d080ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49AD7FF0.5000302@stanford.edu>

Devin,

Yeah, I know. Conflicts are unavoidable, but I had been hoping that time 
for the private meeting would be relatively free and conveniently close 
to the official meeting.    So I figured for the 1.30 meeting having it 
during lunch would be ok. 

As for the conflict with Ian's talk, the word "bummer" comes to mind, 
but that was GDC in its wisdom.  Basically, they put the only two 
historical thingies on the program up against each other -- 
deathmatch!   Seriously, that was a rather uncool bit of conference 
programming. 

Henry

Devin Monnens wrote:
> I will be at the IGDA Charter meetings on...Monday I think it is. One 
> of them is International Best Practices where I hope to bring some 
> things up about networking between chapters nationally and 
> internationally to better help coordinate contacts among IGDA members 
> travelling or moving between chapters and for national and 
> international SIG projects such as Preservation and the Memorials 
> Project. (This and I get a $50 stipend and a meal for just being there!)
>
> There are a couple of interesting-looking panels going on at the same 
> time as the SIG, but one of them is done by Ian Bogost, who I know and 
> could probably get presentation details from. He's probably mainly 
> pimping his new book about the 2600, which should go on the resource 
> list anyway. Too bad he can't attend, but I'll see if he can make it 
> to the super-secret lunch meeting if he isn't too busy prepping. (You 
> do know that 1:30-2:30 is lunchtime, right? Are we going to have those 
> nasty boxed lunches again, or are they gonna give us some REAL food?).
>
> Devin
>
> On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:30 AM, Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu 
> <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>> wrote:
>
>     All,
>
>     Here is some information about the Game Preservation SIG's
>     activities at GDC.
>
>     First, the annual roundtable is part of the GDC program.  It will
>     take place on Friday, the 27th, from 2.30 to 3.30pm, Room 113, in
>     North Hall.  This meeting is open to all.
>
>     Second, this year we will have a private meeting for SIG members
>     and others who know about it.  :-)   This meeting will take place
>     just before the roundtable, from 1.30pm to 2.30pm, in the IGDA's
>     luxurious private meeting room. The location just happens to be
>     Room 112, right next door.
>
>     I have a couple of agenda items for the private meeting from the
>     NDIIPP project (the Library of Congress project, as some know
>     it).  In the public meeting, we will review the year's activities
>     and plan for next year.  If you have agenda items, please send
>     them to me and I'll gather everything up for the meeting(s).
>
>     Henry
>
>     -- 
>     Henry Lowood
>     Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>          Film & Media Collections
>     HRG, Green Library
>     557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
>     Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
>     http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>     lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 650-723-4602
>         
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>
> "Until next time..."
> Captain Commando
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090303/2224f8b3/attachment.htm>

From evilcowclone at gmail.com  Tue Mar  3 16:30:49 2009
From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 14:30:49 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] A sad day for arcade games
In-Reply-To: <op.up8a2zgdfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
References: <op.up7592hqfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
	<49AD70EF.3020301@aarmstrong.org>
	<E439BFE543DA0F429E47C476F37FDD9A15492E3B5F@EXCHANGEMAIL.admin.wpi.edu>
	<op.up8a2zgdfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <b96706b70903031330o429da651l4bf210233aa37c73@mail.gmail.com>

I heard there is only one practicing hardware pinball game designer left in
the world. We need to verify this and interview the guy, make sure his bible
of pinball design gets documented.

-Devin

On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Rachel Sheepy Donahue <donahrm at gmail.com>wrote:

> Funspot is truly the king of arcades. I must also admit a fondness for the
> "barcades" like Jillian's, Dave & Busters, etc. Beer AND House of the Dead?
> Yes, please.
>
> On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 13:25:02 -0500, O'Donnell, Dean M <dodo at wpi.edu>
> wrote:
>
>  Jason talks about a documentary called "Tilt" which is a history of
>> pinball machines, but currently he's working on a history of text adventures
>> called "Get Lamp."
>>
>> Tilt's website: http://www.tilt-movie.com/
>>
>> I live a mere two hours from Funspot, so once a year I go for my arcade
>> fix.  It seems to me the arcade really lives at the beach.  We go to the
>> Maine coast every summer and there are numerous arcades near every beach.
>>
>> Dean
>>
>> ____________________________________________
>> Dean O'Donnell     Associate Director,
>> Interactive Media and Game Development
>> Dept. of Humanities and Arts   WPI
>> dodo at wpi.edu
>> Phone: 508-831-5947
>> Fax: 508-831-5932
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>



-- 
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

"Until next time..."
Captain Commando
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090303/2ee3251b/attachment.htm>

From evilcowclone at gmail.com  Wed Mar  4 11:15:29 2009
From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 09:15:29 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Google's project to digitize all the books in
	the world
Message-ID: <b96706b70903040815u1e4422e5ta448ddf00daef05@mail.gmail.com>

You may have heard of this. In fact, I'd 'heard' of it back in February, but
didn't 'know' about it until this morning thanks to an article in the New
York Times. Google is digitizing all the books in the world, in every
language:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/02/technology/internet/02link.html
http://www.google.com/googlebooks/library.html

Personally, I think this is a really cool idea, though not one without
danger. The advantage is having a virtual catalog of everything ever
written, something that rivals the Internet Archive. I'm not sure though if
this catalogue will contain multiple prints of each book, but that is
something it should certainly include. Hopefully it will include copies of
print magazines as well. The possibilities of having the entire library
searchable is simply enormous. Google has also purchased a web company that
had digitized newspapers, so you can expect them to expand into this area as
well.

The disadvantage though is that all this information is controlled by one
organization: Google. While Google is giving free computers to public
libraries and charging everyone else subscriptions, I am uneasy about one
for-profit group controlling so much of the world's information (rather than
a nonprofit like Internet Archive). That's not to say you can't get books
from other places, but it's still troublesome. Thankfully, I have a lifetime
membership to the University of Denver library as a graduate alum, so I
should be able to access all of this from home!

Makes you wonder as well if Google has plans to build a game library... And
if they've published any papers about this.

-- 
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

"Until next time..."
Captain Commando
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090304/b3e2e7e6/attachment.html>

From donahrm at gmail.com  Wed Mar  4 11:25:58 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel Donahue)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 11:25:58 -0500
Subject: [game_preservation] Google's project to digitize all the books
	in the world
In-Reply-To: <b96706b70903040815u1e4422e5ta448ddf00daef05@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b96706b70903040815u1e4422e5ta448ddf00daef05@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f2d80c160903040825od2f80x2c7db892240d97c9@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Personally, I think this is a really cool idea, though not one without
> danger. The advantage is having a virtual catalog of everything ever
> written, something that rivals the Internet Archive. I'm not sure though if
> this catalogue will contain multiple prints of each book, but that is
> something it should certainly include. Hopefully it will include copies of
> print magazines as well. The possibilities of having the entire library
> searchable is simply enormous. Google has also purchased a web company that
> had digitized newspapers, so you can expect them to expand into this area as
> well.
>

There will be multiples by virtue of the fact that Google is not checking
what it scans -- they're scanning everything from every partner. I don't
know whether they'll actively practice LOCKSS or not, though.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090304/631c4f5e/attachment.htm>

From evilcowclone at gmail.com  Wed Mar  4 11:33:49 2009
From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 09:33:49 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] [igda_whitepaper] Latest Batch of Edits
	Discussion: PLEASE READ THIS
In-Reply-To: <C5D40671.4243%zvowell@austin.utexas.edu>
References: <b96706b70903040818h2e9ef051va49da3538eb19cb8@mail.gmail.com>
	<C5D40671.4243%zvowell@austin.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <b96706b70903040833t35c2864paf9c143324e4012b@mail.gmail.com>

Here are my recommendations for the fonts:

Chapter Header: Arial 14, Bold
Subsection 1: Arial 12, bold, italic
Subsection 2: Arial 12, italic
Body Text: Times New Roman 11
Footnotes: Times New Roman 10

Author Name: Arial 12, Italic?

While Arial and Times are boring, they're common. If we were doing solely
print, we could easily PDF it using something like Verdana, and I don't
think that would cause compatibility if it's in a PDF.

-Devin
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090304/d69d2fd0/attachment.html>

From megan.winget at gmail.com  Wed Mar  4 11:55:46 2009
From: megan.winget at gmail.com (Megan Winget)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 10:55:46 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] JCDL 2009 - Doctoral Consortium - CFP
In-Reply-To: <49340A71.3050204@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49340A71.3050204@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <F33CCD1D-EB85-4B8A-82EC-5123FB8AC279@gmail.com>

Anybody out there have Doctoral Students? Here's a great opportunity  
to have them present their work and get outside feedback!

**********************************

http://www.jcdl2009.org/node/24

Doctoral Consortium CFP
The Doctoral Consortium of the ACM/IEEE Joint Conference on Digital  
Libraries
Call for Participation
June 15 - 19, 2009 - Austin, TX

What is the Doctoral Consortium?

The Doctoral Consortium is a workshop for Ph.D. students from all over  
the
world who are in the early phases of their dissertation work (i.e., the
consortium is not intended for those who are finished or nearly finished
with their dissertation). The goal of the Doctoral Consortium is to help
students with their thesis and research plans by providing feedback and
general advice on using the research environment in a constructive and
international atmosphere. Students will present and discuss their thesis
in the context of a well-known and established international conference
outside of their usual university atmosphere. The workshop will take
place on a single full day. Up to 15 students will have the  
opportunity to
participate. Limited funding may be available to partially offset travel
and registration costs for those students with severe financial need.

Several prominent professors and experienced practitioners in the field
of digital library research in organizations from different countries
and continents will conduct the workshop. They will review all the
submissions and comment on the content of the thesis as well as on the
presentation. Students will have 20 minutes to present their research,
focusing on the main theme of their thesis, what they have achieved
so far and how they plan to continue their work. Another 20 minutes
is reserved for discussion and feedback from both the professors and
other participants. In the course of the workshop students will also get
advice on more general questions, e.g. the differences of Ph.D. studies
in different countries.

Call for Papers and Topics

Students interested in participating in the Doctoral Consortium should
submit an extended abstract (see details below) describing their
Digital Library research. Submissions relating to any aspect of Digital
Library research, development, and evaluation are welcomed, including:
technical advances, usage and impact studies, policy analyses, social
and institutional implications, theoretical contributions, interaction
and design advances, and innovative in the sciences, humanities,
and education.

To apply for participation at the Doctoral Consortium, please
provide an extended abstract of your doctoral work and upload it at
www.jcdl2009.org. The extended abstract is restricted to 4000 words
(approx. 8 pages). Submissions should be submitted electronically in
pdf format. The abstracts should

* Clearly formulate the research question,

* Identify the significant problems in the field of research,

* Summarize the current knowledge of the problem domain, as well
as the state of the art for solutions,

* Clearly present any preliminary research plans and ideas, and
the results achieved so far,

* Sketch the research methodology that is to be applied,

* Describe the expected contributions of the applicant to the
research area, and

* (For technical research) describes how the research is innovative,
novel or extends existing approaches to a problem.

Submissions will be judged on originality, significance, correctness,
and clarity. Workshop participation is limited to 15 Ph.D. students.

Proceedings

Accepted abstracts will be distributed to participants as the workshop
proceedings and made available to participants via the JCDL Doctoral
Consortium digitally.  Participants will be invited to include their
abstracts in a special issue of the TCDL Bulletin, the publication of
the IEEE-CS Technical Committee on Digital Libraries.

Important Dates

March 23, 2009  Deadline for submission of abstracts

April 10, 2009  Notification of acceptance

June 15, 2009   Doctoral Consortium

June 15 - 19, 2009  JCDL

Contact Address

Requests for information should be e-mailed to megan at ischool.utexas.edu
and mln at cs.odu.edu.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090304/e7cf8cf9/attachment.htm>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Wed Mar  4 12:58:20 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 17:58:20 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] Google's project to digitize all the books
 in	the world
In-Reply-To: <b96706b70903040815u1e4422e5ta448ddf00daef05@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b96706b70903040815u1e4422e5ta448ddf00daef05@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49AEC13C.1050707@aarmstrong.org>

Devin Monnens wrote:
> The disadvantage though is that all this information is controlled by 
> one organization: Google.
Google is fickle. Will they even finish this or even leave it in 
perpetual beta?

Anyway, it's no University, it's no government funded institution, and 
certainly no archive. It might be a useful extra resource, but as a 
primary source it will be invariably in the margins.

Nice, but that's about it from my perspective.

Andrew

From lowood at stanford.edu  Wed Mar  4 13:10:51 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 10:10:51 -0800
Subject: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
Message-ID: <49AEC42B.3020402@stanford.edu>

Some of you may be interested in the far-flung corners of the world that 
the Preserving Virtual Worlds project has reached.  Others I know are 
intensely interested in the world of game collectors.  In either case, 
check out Robert Ashley's new podcast, A Life Well Wasted:
http://alifewellwasted.com/feed/atom/
The second episode covers the world of game collectors, which I have to 
say is not so different in some ways from book collectors (said from a 
library perspective). The last quarter or so is about our project. 
Robert Ashley, the man behind ALWW, has said on forums he might release 
the interview with me in its entirety.  He is a bright guy and a great 
interviewer -- makes you wonder about all the talent shaking loose from 1Up.
Oh, the first podcast is also interesting, covering the history and 
demise of EGM.
Henry
-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090304/afcf6b41/attachment.htm>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Wed Mar  4 13:16:48 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 18:16:48 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
In-Reply-To: <49AEC42B.3020402@stanford.edu>
References: <49AEC42B.3020402@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <49AEC590.1020908@aarmstrong.org>

It'll be good when the new IGDA site comes around and things like this 
can be posted on our blog and be discussed a bit (although actually that 
specific functionality tying it into a forum/email discussion doesn't 
exist...must ask about that).

In any case, sounds interesting, should be something to listen to on the 
way to work. I'll put it on the blog and the resources page tomorrow 
probably along with some other stuff that's still in my RSS feeds.

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> Some of you may be interested in the far-flung corners of the world 
> that the Preserving Virtual Worlds project has reached.  Others I know 
> are intensely interested in the world of game collectors.  In either 
> case, check out Robert Ashley's new podcast, A Life Well Wasted:
> http://alifewellwasted.com/feed/atom/
> The second episode covers the world of game collectors, which I have 
> to say is not so different in some ways from book collectors (said 
> from a library perspective). The last quarter or so is about our 
> project. Robert Ashley, the man behind ALWW, has said on forums he 
> might release the interview with me in its entirety.  He is a bright 
> guy and a great interviewer -- makes you wonder about all the talent 
> shaking loose from 1Up.
> Oh, the first podcast is also interesting, covering the history and 
> demise of EGM.
> Henry
> -- 
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>  Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090304/44667af6/attachment.html>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Wed Mar  4 13:18:32 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 18:18:32 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] Writing Biographies
Message-ID: <49AEC5F8.3040108@aarmstrong.org>

Anyone here written biographies before? I don?t necessarily mean game 
developers or whatever, just generally.

I?m just thinking with the memorials project and whatever else we get up 
to it might be useful to know of any resources (good books, online 
stuff, courses) on writing them.

The main reason I ask is that, certainly in the entertainment 
businesses, the top dogs can be, let?s be honest, really dickish. I 
mean, I don?t want to sound annoyed, it?s just true, they come out with 
some real crap, certainly in the current events and future predictions 
areas.

What brought this to mind was Bill Harris? commentary on John 
Riccitiello?s interview:

http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/2009/03/ea-returning-to-form.html

I mean, if we did a biography for him, would we mention he came out with 
this stuff? :/ Such a crass guy. I?m not sure I?d like to work under 
him, sounds rather mean.

I?m sure it?s not a struggle for some biography writers, who write about 
people either long dead (so no one can complain or sue or who you have a 
lot more facts and opinions on) or who write the angle that it?ll have 
to sell, so they make the person out as nice as possible (omitting 
things like that). You know there are plenty of shadow writers for 
autobiographies for instance.

But anyway, the historians who do try and put the facts and opinions 
together, what to do? This can also apply to companies, products and 
anything else of course, but people get less uppity and it?s generally 
considered more fact-like to say something like ?The failure rate of 
product X was in the 50% or higher mark contributing to people being 
wary about buying them? etc. ? basically, the problems, I guess, with 
libel and misrepresentation.

If there are no historians like this on the list we need to find some ;) 
Input from that area of written, typed or documented history is as 
important as the preservation of the physical items.

Andrew

From Melanie.Swalwell at flinders.edu.au  Wed Mar  4 18:27:24 2009
From: Melanie.Swalwell at flinders.edu.au (Melanie Swalwell)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 09:57:24 +1030
Subject: [game_preservation] Google's project to digitize all the books
 in	the world
In-Reply-To: <b96706b70903040815u1e4422e5ta448ddf00daef05@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b96706b70903040815u1e4422e5ta448ddf00daef05@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49AF0E5C.7050507@flinders.edu.au>

Hasn't this been in the pipeline for a while now?

Devin Monnens wrote:
> You may have heard of this. In fact, I'd 'heard' of it back in 
> February, but didn't 'know' about it until this morning thanks to an 
> article in the New York Times. Google is digitizing all the books in 
> the world, in every language:
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/02/technology/internet/02link.html
> http://www.google.com/googlebooks/library.html
>
> Personally, I think this is a really cool idea, though not one without 
> danger.
There has been concern about this expressed on an Australian media history listserve I'm on.  It seems the resources people were using in their research through the paperofrecord.com database -- local newspapers, in many cases -- have recently disappeared.  You can read the original post at http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=H-ANZAU&month=0902&week=d&msg=FKdVZsUKW5fIBcF1wjNZZw&user=&pw=

Another message brought up by (ahem) a google search refers to a response from Google. http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=H-Diplo&month=0902&week=d&msg=25E0NQxi7O1U%2BiMLn88FZw&user=&pw=
However, I have been unable to bring this up to read it.

Melanie


-- 
Dr Melanie Swalwell
Senior Lecturer, Screen and Media
& Course Coordinator, B. Media
Flinders University
GPO Box 2100
Adelaide SA 5001

125B Humanities Bldg

Ph: +61 8 8201 2619
Fax: +61 8 8201 3635

melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au


From bcain at criticalmassinteractive.com  Wed Mar  4 18:47:14 2009
From: bcain at criticalmassinteractive.com (bcain at criticalmassinteractive.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 23:47:14 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] Google's project to digitize all the
	booksin	the world
In-Reply-To: <49AF0E5C.7050507@flinders.edu.au>
References: <b96706b70903040815u1e4422e5ta448ddf00daef05@mail.gmail.com><49AF0E5C.7050507@flinders.edu.au>
Message-ID: <1885351351-1236210446-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-799828401-@bxe1213.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Archive.org has also been working on this for some time, but they are doing only public domain works. They are also doing movies and audio/music. 

Archive.org rocks. 

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Melanie Swalwell <Melanie.Swalwell at flinders.edu.au>

Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 09:57:24 
To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG<game_preservation at igda.org>
Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Google's project to digitize all the books
 in	the world


Hasn't this been in the pipeline for a while now?

Devin Monnens wrote:
> You may have heard of this. In fact, I'd 'heard' of it back in 
> February, but didn't 'know' about it until this morning thanks to an 
> article in the New York Times. Google is digitizing all the books in 
> the world, in every language:
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/02/technology/internet/02link.html
> http://www.google.com/googlebooks/library.html
>
> Personally, I think this is a really cool idea, though not one without 
> danger.
There has been concern about this expressed on an Australian media history listserve I'm on.  It seems the resources people were using in their research through the paperofrecord.com database -- local newspapers, in many cases -- have recently disappeared.  You can read the original post at http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=H-ANZAU&month=0902&week=d&msg=FKdVZsUKW5fIBcF1wjNZZw&user=&pw=

Another message brought up by (ahem) a google search refers to a response from Google. http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=H-Diplo&month=0902&week=d&msg=25E0NQxi7O1U%2BiMLn88FZw&user=&pw=
However, I have been unable to bring this up to read it.

Melanie


-- 
Dr Melanie Swalwell
Senior Lecturer, Screen and Media
& Course Coordinator, B. Media
Flinders University
GPO Box 2100
Adelaide SA 5001

125B Humanities Bldg

Ph: +61 8 8201 2619
Fax: +61 8 8201 3635

melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au

_______________________________________________
game_preservation mailing list
game_preservation at igda.org
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

From evilcowclone at gmail.com  Wed Mar  4 19:57:49 2009
From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 17:57:49 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Writing Biographies
In-Reply-To: <49AEC5F8.3040108@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49AEC5F8.3040108@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <b96706b70903041657p2d4c0798o6f19da8ec46e590@mail.gmail.com>

I try not to leave things too fluffy, but I soften the blow from time to
time. Biographies are supposed to be accurate, give an accurate
representation of the character. However, sometimes the interviewees say
things just to pump themselves up: read The Ultimate History of Video Games
for instance, where Nolan Bushnell's interviews are clearly not 100%
truthful. You learn more by how he spins it than by what he's actually
saying. Unfortunately, that's going to be the case with a lot of these top
people who just want to pad themselves.

On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

> Anyone here written biographies before? I don?t necessarily mean game
> developers or whatever, just generally.
>
> I?m just thinking with the memorials project and whatever else we get up to
> it might be useful to know of any resources (good books, online stuff,
> courses) on writing them.
>
> The main reason I ask is that, certainly in the entertainment businesses,
> the top dogs can be, let?s be honest, really dickish. I mean, I don?t want
> to sound annoyed, it?s just true, they come out with some real crap,
> certainly in the current events and future predictions areas.
>
> What brought this to mind was Bill Harris? commentary on John Riccitiello?s
> interview:
>
> http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/2009/03/ea-returning-to-form.html
>
> I mean, if we did a biography for him, would we mention he came out with
> this stuff? :/ Such a crass guy. I?m not sure I?d like to work under him,
> sounds rather mean.
>
> I?m sure it?s not a struggle for some biography writers, who write about
> people either long dead (so no one can complain or sue or who you have a lot
> more facts and opinions on) or who write the angle that it?ll have to sell,
> so they make the person out as nice as possible (omitting things like that).
> You know there are plenty of shadow writers for autobiographies for
> instance.
>
> But anyway, the historians who do try and put the facts and opinions
> together, what to do? This can also apply to companies, products and
> anything else of course, but people get less uppity and it?s generally
> considered more fact-like to say something like ?The failure rate of product
> X was in the 50% or higher mark contributing to people being wary about
> buying them? etc. ? basically, the problems, I guess, with libel and
> misrepresentation.
>
> If there are no historians like this on the list we need to find some ;)
> Input from that area of written, typed or documented history is as important
> as the preservation of the physical items.
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>



-- 
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

"Until next time..."
Captain Commando
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090304/c39befeb/attachment.html>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Fri Mar  6 13:51:15 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 18:51:15 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] Home of the Underdogs Revival Project
Message-ID: <49B170A3.1050107@aarmstrong.org>

Hey,

Sarinee from HotU has setup a google groups project thing to manage 
somehow getting the old site data online. She's provided a bit of the 
data which I've mirrored on the archive ( 
http://www.archive.org/details/Home_of_the_Underdogs-Data ) - sadly 
nothing from the mac side, none of the user content either (forums, 
reviews, etc.) but there is raw data there in an Excel Spreadsheet got 
out from the DB.

The group is here for those who want to contribute: 
http://groups.google.com/group/hotu-revival

I'm there, hopefully more as an advisory role since I have GDC coming up 
right now, where I hope to get somewhere a static set of HTML pages or 
at least a static site uploaded on the web (either in zip or as an 
accessible resource). This depends on others efforts it seems - someone 
needs to ring the debtors who took over the hosting company once it 
filed for bankrupcy to possibly get a site backup for instance (it's in 
America, I can't ring ;) ). Someone else is manually getting pages (from 
where I don't know - Coral Cache and suchlike I presume).

I've added it to the general projects page. I'll say this has "IGDA Game 
Preservation SIG approval" but except for me and Dan no one from here is 
working on it I guess :)

Andrew

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Fri Mar  6 16:01:08 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 21:01:08 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] Early (first?) Lightgun
Message-ID: <49B18F14.2000009@aarmstrong.org>

Interesting stuff, an early (or the first?) light gun game:

http://marvin3m.com/arcade/rayolit.htm

I should post this in the blog perhaps, but I think it's not a videogame 
as such, although it is a game!

Andrew

From evilcowclone at gmail.com  Fri Mar  6 18:11:26 2009
From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 16:11:26 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Early (first?) Lightgun
In-Reply-To: <49B18F14.2000009@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49B18F14.2000009@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <b96706b70903061511t58e24fd0y4884f9d74df575f1@mail.gmail.com>

In a somewhat related announcement, I modded my light gun by adding a laser
scope to it. Eat that, Duck Hunt. Now where's the mod where I can shoot the
dog?

-Devin

On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

> Interesting stuff, an early (or the first?) light gun game:
>
> http://marvin3m.com/arcade/rayolit.htm
>
> I should post this in the blog perhaps, but I think it's not a videogame as
> such, although it is a game!
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>



-- 
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

"Until next time..."
Captain Commando
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090306/7b7538e6/attachment.htm>

From melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au  Fri Mar  6 19:34:52 2009
From: melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au (Melanie Swalwell)
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 11:04:52 +1030
Subject: [game_preservation] Marvin's
In-Reply-To: <49B18F14.2000009@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49B18F14.2000009@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <49B1C12C.5030103@flinders.edu.au>

This is an amazing website.  A great find: it has heaps of info on 
electro mechanical arcade games -- http://marvin3m.com/arcade/index.htm  
-- including got posters, photos, manufacturers' info, etc.    Most  
helpful for my current project: an exhibition of documentary photos 
taken in arcades (or other spaces with arcade machines) in the 1970s and 
80s in New Zealand.  Many are at the crossover of electro-mechanical to 
video.  I will let the list know when it's online (due to launch next 
month).

Has anyone been to Marvin's and played the games?

You just gotta love collectors!

Melanie


Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> Interesting stuff, an early (or the first?) light gun game:
>
> http://marvin3m.com/arcade/rayolit.htm
>
> I should post this in the blog perhaps, but I think it's not a 
> videogame as such, although it is a game!
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

-- 
Dr Melanie Swalwell
Senior Lecturer, Screen and Media
& Course Coordinator, B. Media
Flinders University
GPO Box 2100
Adelaide SA 5001

125B Humanities Bldg

Ph: +61 8 8201 2619
Fax: +61 8 8201 3635

melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au


From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sat Mar  7 04:31:11 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 09:31:11 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] Marvin's
In-Reply-To: <49B1C12C.5030103@flinders.edu.au>
References: <49B18F14.2000009@aarmstrong.org>
	<49B1C12C.5030103@flinders.edu.au>
Message-ID: <49B23EDF.70706@aarmstrong.org>

Not been there no, I will eventually get around to contacting him about 
his museum - along with the other museums we know about, since he hosts 
everything from these mechanical items up to present day stuff, pretty 
amazing.

Andrew

Melanie Swalwell wrote:
> This is an amazing website. A great find: it has heaps of info on 
> electro mechanical arcade games -- 
> http://marvin3m.com/arcade/index.htm -- including got posters, photos, 
> manufacturers' info, etc. Most helpful for my current project: an 
> exhibition of documentary photos taken in arcades (or other spaces 
> with arcade machines) in the 1970s and 80s in New Zealand. Many are at 
> the crossover of electro-mechanical to video. I will let the list know 
> when it's online (due to launch next month).
>
> Has anyone been to Marvin's and played the games?
>
> You just gotta love collectors!
>
> Melanie
>
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>> Interesting stuff, an early (or the first?) light gun game:
>>
>> http://marvin3m.com/arcade/rayolit.htm
>>
>> I should post this in the blog perhaps, but I think it's not a 
>> videogame as such, although it is a game!
>>
>> Andrew
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>

From dodo at WPI.EDU  Sat Mar  7 14:40:45 2009
From: dodo at WPI.EDU (O'Donnell, Dean M)
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 14:40:45 -0500
Subject: [game_preservation] Marvin's
In-Reply-To: <49B23EDF.70706@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49B18F14.2000009@aarmstrong.org>
	<49B1C12C.5030103@flinders.edu.au>,<49B23EDF.70706@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <E439BFE543DA0F429E47C476F37FDD9A15490DBD87@EXCHANGEMAIL.admin.wpi.edu>

For those going to GDC, the Musee Mecanique at Pier 45 on Fisherman's Wharf is well worth the trip out of the convention center.

http://www.museemechanique.org/

Dean
________________________________________
From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Armstrong [andrew at aarmstrong.org]
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 4:31 AM
To: melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au; IGDA Game Preservation SIG
Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Marvin's

Not been there no, I will eventually get around to contacting him about
his museum - along with the other museums we know about, since he hosts
everything from these mechanical items up to present day stuff, pretty
amazing.

Andrew

Melanie Swalwell wrote:
> This is an amazing website. A great find: it has heaps of info on
> electro mechanical arcade games --
> http://marvin3m.com/arcade/index.htm -- including got posters, photos,
> manufacturers' info, etc. Most helpful for my current project: an
> exhibition of documentary photos taken in arcades (or other spaces
> with arcade machines) in the 1970s and 80s in New Zealand. Many are at
> the crossover of electro-mechanical to video. I will let the list know
> when it's online (due to launch next month).
>
> Has anyone been to Marvin's and played the games?
>
> You just gotta love collectors!
>
> Melanie
>
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>> Interesting stuff, an early (or the first?) light gun game:
>>
>> http://marvin3m.com/arcade/rayolit.htm
>>
>> I should post this in the blog perhaps, but I think it's not a
>> videogame as such, although it is a game!
>>
>> Andrew
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
_______________________________________________
game_preservation mailing list
game_preservation at igda.org
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sat Mar  7 20:06:40 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 01:06:40 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] Marvin's
In-Reply-To: <E439BFE543DA0F429E47C476F37FDD9A15490DBD87@EXCHANGEMAIL.admin.wpi.edu>
References: <49B18F14.2000009@aarmstrong.org>	<49B1C12C.5030103@flinders.edu.au>,
	<49B23EDF.70706@aarmstrong.org>
	<E439BFE543DA0F429E47C476F37FDD9A15490DBD87@EXCHANGEMAIL.admin.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <49B31A20.2010504@aarmstrong.org>

I'll check it out, thanks :) I need to investigate other museums and 
galleries in San Francisco before I go.

Andrew

O'Donnell, Dean M wrote:
> For those going to GDC, the Musee Mecanique at Pier 45 on Fisherman's Wharf is well worth the trip out of the convention center.
>
> http://www.museemechanique.org/
>
> Dean
> ________________________________________
> From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Armstrong [andrew at aarmstrong.org]
> Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 4:31 AM
> To: melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au; IGDA Game Preservation SIG
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Marvin's
>
> Not been there no, I will eventually get around to contacting him about
> his museum - along with the other museums we know about, since he hosts
> everything from these mechanical items up to present day stuff, pretty
> amazing.
>
> Andrew
>
> Melanie Swalwell wrote:
>   
>> This is an amazing website. A great find: it has heaps of info on
>> electro mechanical arcade games --
>> http://marvin3m.com/arcade/index.htm -- including got posters, photos,
>> manufacturers' info, etc. Most helpful for my current project: an
>> exhibition of documentary photos taken in arcades (or other spaces
>> with arcade machines) in the 1970s and 80s in New Zealand. Many are at
>> the crossover of electro-mechanical to video. I will let the list know
>> when it's online (due to launch next month).
>>
>> Has anyone been to Marvin's and played the games?
>>
>> You just gotta love collectors!
>>
>> Melanie
>>
>>
>> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>     
>>> Interesting stuff, an early (or the first?) light gun game:
>>>
>>> http://marvin3m.com/arcade/rayolit.htm
>>>
>>> I should post this in the blog perhaps, but I think it's not a
>>> videogame as such, although it is a game!
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>       
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090308/26c7da23/attachment.html>

From donahrm at gmail.com  Sat Mar  7 20:10:54 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue)
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:10:54 -0500
Subject: [game_preservation] Marvin's
In-Reply-To: <49B31A20.2010504@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49B18F14.2000009@aarmstrong.org>
	<49B1C12C.5030103@flinders.edu.au> <49B23EDF.70706@aarmstrong.org>
	<E439BFE543DA0F429E47C476F37FDD9A15490DBD87@EXCHANGEMAIL.admin.wpi.edu>
	<49B31A20.2010504@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <op.uqf78gebfmh8gn@sherpa.chn.comcast.net>

Someone should eat at Millenium for me ;)
Might just be the tastiest meal I've had.
http://www.millenniumrestaurant.com/


On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:06:40 -0500, Andrew Armstrong  
<andrew at aarmstrong.org> wrote:

> I'll check it out, thanks :) I need to investigate other museums and
> galleries in San Francisco before I go.
>
> Andrew
>
> O'Donnell, Dean M wrote:
>> For those going to GDC, the Musee Mecanique at Pier 45 on Fisherman's  
>> Wharf is well worth the trip out of the convention center.
>>
>> http://www.museemechanique.org/
>>
>> Dean

From evilcowclone at gmail.com  Sat Mar  7 20:12:45 2009
From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 18:12:45 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Marvin's
In-Reply-To: <op.uqf78gebfmh8gn@sherpa.chn.comcast.net>
References: <49B18F14.2000009@aarmstrong.org>
	<49B1C12C.5030103@flinders.edu.au> <49B23EDF.70706@aarmstrong.org>
	<E439BFE543DA0F429E47C476F37FDD9A15490DBD87@EXCHANGEMAIL.admin.wpi.edu>
	<49B31A20.2010504@aarmstrong.org>
	<op.uqf78gebfmh8gn@sherpa.chn.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b96706b70903071712v4984e1f1yb3cf0144bd33558e@mail.gmail.com>

Errr... I think I'll pass. Meals are like $30.

On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Rachel Sheepy Donahue <donahrm at gmail.com>wrote:

> Someone should eat at Millenium for me ;)
> Might just be the tastiest meal I've had.
> http://www.millenniumrestaurant.com/
>
>
> On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:06:40 -0500, Andrew Armstrong <
> andrew at aarmstrong.org> wrote:
>
>  I'll check it out, thanks :) I need to investigate other museums and
>> galleries in San Francisco before I go.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> O'Donnell, Dean M wrote:
>>
>>> For those going to GDC, the Musee Mecanique at Pier 45 on Fisherman's
>>> Wharf is well worth the trip out of the convention center.
>>>
>>> http://www.museemechanique.org/
>>>
>>> Dean
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>



-- 
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

"Until next time..."
Captain Commando
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090307/e6e88da0/attachment.html>

From donahrm at gmail.com  Sat Mar  7 20:13:59 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue)
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:13:59 -0500
Subject: [game_preservation] Marvin's
In-Reply-To: <b96706b70903071712v4984e1f1yb3cf0144bd33558e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49B18F14.2000009@aarmstrong.org>
	<49B1C12C.5030103@flinders.edu.au> <49B23EDF.70706@aarmstrong.org>
	<E439BFE543DA0F429E47C476F37FDD9A15490DBD87@EXCHANGEMAIL.admin.wpi.edu>
	<49B31A20.2010504@aarmstrong.org>
	<op.uqf78gebfmh8gn@sherpa.chn.comcast.net>
	<b96706b70903071712v4984e1f1yb3cf0144bd33558e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.uqf8dlmffmh8gn@sherpa.chn.comcast.net>

I know. I went for work and spent my entire day's meal allowance -- but it  
was very, very worth it.

On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:12:45 -0500, Devin Monnens <evilcowclone at gmail.com>  
wrote:

> Errr... I think I'll pass. Meals are like $30.
>
> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Rachel Sheepy Donahue  
> <donahrm at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Someone should eat at Millenium for me ;)
>> Might just be the tastiest meal I've had.
>> http://www.millenniumrestaurant.com/

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sat Mar  7 20:16:29 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 01:16:29 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] Marvin's
In-Reply-To: <op.uqf8dlmffmh8gn@sherpa.chn.comcast.net>
References: <49B18F14.2000009@aarmstrong.org>	<49B1C12C.5030103@flinders.edu.au>
	<49B23EDF.70706@aarmstrong.org>	<E439BFE543DA0F429E47C476F37FDD9A15490DBD87@EXCHANGEMAIL.admin.wpi.edu>	<49B31A20.2010504@aarmstrong.org>	<op.uqf78gebfmh8gn@sherpa.chn.comcast.net>	<b96706b70903071712v4984e1f1yb3cf0144bd33558e@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.uqf8dlmffmh8gn@sherpa.chn.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49B31C6D.6080109@aarmstrong.org>

So that's like $40 total or something? I always forget tipping is so big 
in America.

I need to work out my budget I think (I just hope not to use my credit 
card even as a last resort). I'll definately take any free food going 
during the day, heh.

Andrew

Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
> I know. I went for work and spent my entire day's meal allowance -- 
> but it was very, very worth it.
>
> On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:12:45 -0500, Devin Monnens 
> <evilcowclone at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Errr... I think I'll pass. Meals are like $30.
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Rachel Sheepy Donahue 
>> <donahrm at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Someone should eat at Millenium for me ;)
>>> Might just be the tastiest meal I've had.
>>> http://www.millenniumrestaurant.com/
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

From donahrm at gmail.com  Sat Mar  7 20:20:58 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue)
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:20:58 -0500
Subject: [game_preservation] Marvin's
In-Reply-To: <49B31C6D.6080109@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49B18F14.2000009@aarmstrong.org>
	<49B1C12C.5030103@flinders.edu.au> <49B23EDF.70706@aarmstrong.org>
	<E439BFE543DA0F429E47C476F37FDD9A15490DBD87@EXCHANGEMAIL.admin.wpi.edu>
	<49B31A20.2010504@aarmstrong.org>
	<op.uqf78gebfmh8gn@sherpa.chn.comcast.net>
	<b96706b70903071712v4984e1f1yb3cf0144bd33558e@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.uqf8dlmffmh8gn@sherpa.chn.comcast.net>
	<49B31C6D.6080109@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <op.uqf8o8jofmh8gn@sherpa.chn.comcast.net>

$60 -- but that was with an appetizer, dessert, and possibly a beer (I  
forget, the beer was not memorable if I so).
And yes to tipping.. 15-20% is typical, a lot of restaurants automatically  
add 18% for parties of 6 or more.

On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:16:29 -0500, Andrew Armstrong  
<andrew at aarmstrong.org> wrote:

> So that's like $40 total or something? I always forget tipping is so big  
> in America.
>
> I need to work out my budget I think (I just hope not to use my credit  
> card even as a last resort). I'll definately take any free food going  
> during the day, heh.
>
> Andrew
>
> Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
>> I know. I went for work and spent my entire day's meal allowance -- but  
>> it was very, very worth it.
>>
>> On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:12:45 -0500, Devin Monnens  
>> <evilcowclone at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Errr... I think I'll pass. Meals are like $30.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Rachel Sheepy Donahue  
>>> <donahrm at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Someone should eat at Millenium for me ;)
>>>> Might just be the tastiest meal I've had.
>>>> http://www.millenniumrestaurant.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation



-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com  Sun Mar  8 10:45:06 2009
From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 10:45:06 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] Home of the Underdogs Revival Project
In-Reply-To: <49B170A3.1050107@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49B170A3.1050107@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <49b3d9f7.0603c00a.3517.ffffcb3e@mx.google.com>

Wow, Andrew, thanks for posting this. The Excel basically is all the
metadata on the site if anyone is interested.

One note about HOTU: as the name implies, the site focused on underdogs:
underappreciated, underrated, or relatively unknown games. So you're not
going to find "King's Quest" on there.

Stuart

> -----Original Message-----
> From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [mailto:game_preservation-
> bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Armstrong
> Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 1:51 PM
> To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG
> Subject: [game_preservation] Home of the Underdogs Revival Project
> 
> Hey,
> 
> Sarinee from HotU has setup a google groups project thing to manage
> somehow getting the old site data online. She's provided a bit of the
> data which I've mirrored on the archive (
> http://www.archive.org/details/Home_of_the_Underdogs-Data ) - sadly
> nothing from the mac side, none of the user content either (forums,
> reviews, etc.) but there is raw data there in an Excel Spreadsheet got
> out from the DB.
> 
> The group is here for those who want to contribute:
> http://groups.google.com/group/hotu-revival
> 
> I'm there, hopefully more as an advisory role since I have GDC coming
> up
> right now, where I hope to get somewhere a static set of HTML pages or
> at least a static site uploaded on the web (either in zip or as an
> accessible resource). This depends on others efforts it seems - someone
> needs to ring the debtors who took over the hosting company once it
> filed for bankrupcy to possibly get a site backup for instance (it's in
> America, I can't ring ;) ). Someone else is manually getting pages
> (from
> where I don't know - Coral Cache and suchlike I presume).
> 
> I've added it to the general projects page. I'll say this has "IGDA
> Game
> Preservation SIG approval" but except for me and Dan no one from here
> is
> working on it I guess :)
> 
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation


From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com  Sun Mar  8 15:59:52 2009
From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:59:52 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
In-Reply-To: <49AEC42B.3020402@stanford.edu>
References: <49AEC42B.3020402@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <49b423ba.02c3f10a.2e20.1c07@mx.google.com>

I just listened to both episodes. I thought they were very well done,
although I think they would both have been improved by video - especially
the one on collectors. You can't begin to understand collectors until you
actually SEE some of their collections.

 

Henry, you made a comment in the podcast that a single player game can be
booted up in 100 years and enjoyed, but a multi-player game can't be,
because it requires other people to play, and the guy won't be able to find
other people to play it with him. Regardless if that is true or not, it's
impossible to preserve the actual experience of playing the game by taking
video and screenshots. The only way the guy in 100 years is going to be able
to have the experience of playing the game is if he manages to get a whole
bunch of other people to play with him, or if we can design suitably
convincing bots to take the place of the other players.

 

I agree that gameplay videos have value, but the same applies to gameplay
videos of single player games. What is specifically added to the mix by
preserving gameplay videos from multi-player games? It sounded from the
podcast as if this was some kind of solution to the problem of preserving
multi-player games in general. I think it's useful, but it only adds
marginally to the preservation of the game experience.

 

Stuart

 

 

From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Henry Lowood
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:11 PM
To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG
Subject: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted

 

Some of you may be interested in the far-flung corners of the world that the
Preserving Virtual Worlds project has reached.  Others I know are intensely
interested in the world of game collectors.  In either case, check out
Robert Ashley's new podcast, A Life Well Wasted:
http://alifewellwasted.com/feed/atom/
The second episode covers the world of game collectors, which I have to say
is not so different in some ways from book collectors (said from a library
perspective). The last quarter or so is about our project. Robert Ashley,
the man behind ALWW, has said on forums he might release the interview with
me in its entirety.  He is a bright guy and a great interviewer -- makes you
wonder about all the talent shaking loose from 1Up.
Oh, the first podcast is also interesting, covering the history and demise
of EGM.
Henry 

-- 

Henry Lowood, Ph.D.

Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;

 Film & Media Collections

HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford CA 94305-6004

650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>  

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090308/784b7320/attachment.htm>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Mon Mar  9 12:30:06 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 16:30:06 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] Preserving Websites
Message-ID: <49B5440E.7020404@aarmstrong.org>

We need to look at some point into helping preserve websites - 
especially ones that simply cease to be. I brought this up off list a 
bit with Henry and Simon a while back - what pipqued my interest again 
was this:

http://www.gamecyte.com/rip-gamecyte-2008-2009

A site I don't think I've ever visited, and if not then I can't recall 
it from memory. It was operating for an entire year, and I'd no clue. 
Well, it's stopping - but no doubt this is something to preserve in some 
way if they then switch off the hosting next month.

The IA crawlers are okay in general, for sites which don't go out of 
business or offline, and if they are setup properly. However many sites 
are not crawled often enough, certainly not to the level of accuracy 
that would be acceptable for preservation (see the example HotU!)

Jason Scott created a task force more dedicated to grabbing sites while 
they are still online, 
http://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Main_Page - I will join their 
group to see how they operate, and see if I can help or do something.

This is a possible project we can look at working on continually - while 
the IGDA is both a developer orientated group (give or take) and hasn't 
got the funding to do a physical archive, I can help put my efforts into 
this (along with any help we're able to get) just because I don't think 
many other places (any other places?) think about this and other area's 
we're working on.

My thoughts are to maybe just for now list websites which are basically 
shutting with their "death date" and then requesting off the 
owners/webmasters if possible an archived copy of the site for at least 
dark storage on the Internet Archive, if not public access. I've no idea 
if the more accurate/on demand Wayback scanner is another route to take, 
although doens't that require payment to use? (while we have no money ;) )

Thanks in advance to anyone provides a comment, I'd not mind knowing if 
this was worth working on in the future.

Andrew

From lowood at stanford.edu  Mon Mar  9 12:34:26 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 09:34:26 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Preserving Websites
In-Reply-To: <49B5440E.7020404@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49B5440E.7020404@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <49B54512.3050503@stanford.edu>

Andrew,

for now, just let me know.  We have an archive-it instance with our 
project, and I can use it to crawl sites. If a site is going down, I can 
do a one-time crawl to catch it near the end at least.  By the way, 
frequent crawls for the most part are not adding much content to what we 
get from infrequent or even one-time crawls.

Henry

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> We need to look at some point into helping preserve websites - 
> especially ones that simply cease to be. I brought this up off list a 
> bit with Henry and Simon a while back - what pipqued my interest again 
> was this:
>
> http://www.gamecyte.com/rip-gamecyte-2008-2009
>
> A site I don't think I've ever visited, and if not then I can't recall 
> it from memory. It was operating for an entire year, and I'd no clue. 
> Well, it's stopping - but no doubt this is something to preserve in 
> some way if they then switch off the hosting next month.
>
> The IA crawlers are okay in general, for sites which don't go out of 
> business or offline, and if they are setup properly. However many 
> sites are not crawled often enough, certainly not to the level of 
> accuracy that would be acceptable for preservation (see the example 
> HotU!)
>
> Jason Scott created a task force more dedicated to grabbing sites 
> while they are still online, 
> http://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Main_Page - I will join 
> their group to see how they operate, and see if I can help or do 
> something.
>
> This is a possible project we can look at working on continually - 
> while the IGDA is both a developer orientated group (give or take) and 
> hasn't got the funding to do a physical archive, I can help put my 
> efforts into this (along with any help we're able to get) just because 
> I don't think many other places (any other places?) think about this 
> and other area's we're working on.
>
> My thoughts are to maybe just for now list websites which are 
> basically shutting with their "death date" and then requesting off the 
> owners/webmasters if possible an archived copy of the site for at 
> least dark storage on the Internet Archive, if not public access. I've 
> no idea if the more accurate/on demand Wayback scanner is another 
> route to take, although doens't that require payment to use? (while we 
> have no money ;) )
>
> Thanks in advance to anyone provides a comment, I'd not mind knowing 
> if this was worth working on in the future.
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090309/7867645d/attachment.html>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Mon Mar  9 12:38:43 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 16:38:43 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] Preserving Websites
In-Reply-To: <49B54512.3050503@stanford.edu>
References: <49B5440E.7020404@aarmstrong.org> <49B54512.3050503@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <49B54613.9070209@aarmstrong.org>

Yep, that's mainly what I'd intend if the project got going for game 
websites going down - either archive-it one time crawls, website backups 
from the source, or something, stored in a location publicly accessible.

Doing it constantly on sites still up and running would be what the 
Wayback machine partially does, and also not be feasible or really 
desirable, although doing a good scrape every year of a site can work 
wonders (a lot of changes can happen in a year for larger sites), it'd 
also not be the point of the project initially (if at all, like I said - 
cost, in time and money, would be much higher).

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> Andrew,
>
> for now, just let me know.  We have an archive-it instance with our 
> project, and I can use it to crawl sites. If a site is going down, I 
> can do a one-time crawl to catch it near the end at least.  By the 
> way, frequent crawls for the most part are not adding much content to 
> what we get from infrequent or even one-time crawls.
>
> Henry
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>> We need to look at some point into helping preserve websites - 
>> especially ones that simply cease to be. I brought this up off list a 
>> bit with Henry and Simon a while back - what pipqued my interest 
>> again was this:
>>
>> http://www.gamecyte.com/rip-gamecyte-2008-2009
>>
>> A site I don't think I've ever visited, and if not then I can't 
>> recall it from memory. It was operating for an entire year, and I'd 
>> no clue. Well, it's stopping - but no doubt this is something to 
>> preserve in some way if they then switch off the hosting next month.
>>
>> The IA crawlers are okay in general, for sites which don't go out of 
>> business or offline, and if they are setup properly. However many 
>> sites are not crawled often enough, certainly not to the level of 
>> accuracy that would be acceptable for preservation (see the example 
>> HotU!)
>>
>> Jason Scott created a task force more dedicated to grabbing sites 
>> while they are still online, 
>> http://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Main_Page - I will join 
>> their group to see how they operate, and see if I can help or do 
>> something.
>>
>> This is a possible project we can look at working on continually - 
>> while the IGDA is both a developer orientated group (give or take) 
>> and hasn't got the funding to do a physical archive, I can help put 
>> my efforts into this (along with any help we're able to get) just 
>> because I don't think many other places (any other places?) think 
>> about this and other area's we're working on.
>>
>> My thoughts are to maybe just for now list websites which are 
>> basically shutting with their "death date" and then requesting off 
>> the owners/webmasters if possible an archived copy of the site for at 
>> least dark storage on the Internet Archive, if not public access. 
>> I've no idea if the more accurate/on demand Wayback scanner is 
>> another route to take, although doens't that require payment to use? 
>> (while we have no money ;) )
>>
>> Thanks in advance to anyone provides a comment, I'd not mind knowing 
>> if this was worth working on in the future.
>>
>> Andrew
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
> -- 
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>  Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090309/9ea1e5ac/attachment.htm>

From evilcowclone at gmail.com  Mon Mar  9 14:41:34 2009
From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 12:41:34 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] Preserving Websites
In-Reply-To: <49B54613.9070209@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49B5440E.7020404@aarmstrong.org> <49B54512.3050503@stanford.edu>
	<49B54613.9070209@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <b96706b70903091141y33559559h102642dc9860cb31@mail.gmail.com>

Of course, site updates are important. It depends if it's a snowball-like
database like HotU versus a site that changes internal content frequently or
does image overhaul. As a result, like a game updated with different version
numbers, a website's appearance can change like that, too. So a 'final look
of the site' ultimately may not be the best archival.
Devin

On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

>  Yep, that's mainly what I'd intend if the project got going for game
> websites going down - either archive-it one time crawls, website backups
> from the source, or something, stored in a location publicly accessible.
>
> Doing it constantly on sites still up and running would be what the Wayback
> machine partially does, and also not be feasible or really desirable,
> although doing a good scrape every year of a site can work wonders (a lot of
> changes can happen in a year for larger sites), it'd also not be the point
> of the project initially (if at all, like I said - cost, in time and money,
> would be much higher).
>
> Andrew
>
> Henry Lowood wrote:
>
> Andrew,
>
> for now, just let me know.  We have an archive-it instance with our
> project, and I can use it to crawl sites. If a site is going down, I can do
> a one-time crawl to catch it near the end at least.  By the way, frequent
> crawls for the most part are not adding much content to what we get from
> infrequent or even one-time crawls.
>
> Henry
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>
> We need to look at some point into helping preserve websites - especially
> ones that simply cease to be. I brought this up off list a bit with Henry
> and Simon a while back - what pipqued my interest again was this:
>
> http://www.gamecyte.com/rip-gamecyte-2008-2009
>
> A site I don't think I've ever visited, and if not then I can't recall it
> from memory. It was operating for an entire year, and I'd no clue. Well,
> it's stopping - but no doubt this is something to preserve in some way if
> they then switch off the hosting next month.
>
> The IA crawlers are okay in general, for sites which don't go out of
> business or offline, and if they are setup properly. However many sites are
> not crawled often enough, certainly not to the level of accuracy that would
> be acceptable for preservation (see the example HotU!)
>
> Jason Scott created a task force more dedicated to grabbing sites while
> they are still online,
> http://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Main_Page - I will join their
> group to see how they operate, and see if I can help or do something.
>
> This is a possible project we can look at working on continually - while
> the IGDA is both a developer orientated group (give or take) and hasn't got
> the funding to do a physical archive, I can help put my efforts into this
> (along with any help we're able to get) just because I don't think many
> other places (any other places?) think about this and other area's we're
> working on.
>
> My thoughts are to maybe just for now list websites which are basically
> shutting with their "death date" and then requesting off the
> owners/webmasters if possible an archived copy of the site for at least dark
> storage on the Internet Archive, if not public access. I've no idea if the
> more accurate/on demand Wayback scanner is another route to take, although
> doens't that require payment to use? (while we have no money ;) )
>
> Thanks in advance to anyone provides a comment, I'd not mind knowing if
> this was worth working on in the future.
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> --
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>  Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>
> ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>


-- 
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

"Until next time..."
Captain Commando
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090309/0f08a81d/attachment.html>

From lowood at stanford.edu  Mon Mar  9 19:23:37 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 16:23:37 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
In-Reply-To: <49b423ba.02c3f10a.2e20.1c07@mx.google.com>
References: <49AEC42B.3020402@stanford.edu>
	<49b423ba.02c3f10a.2e20.1c07@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <49B5A4F9.8080007@stanford.edu>

Hi Stuart,

Well, I guess we disagree a little on the value of gameplay 
documentation (which is not just video).   My point was that documenting 
a complex multi-player or massively multi-player world is as much about 
documenting events that happen in those spaces as it is about preserving 
software.  I don't think that's marginal at all.

If the focus is on "experiences," then I agree with you. That sort of 
preservation is closer to re-enactment than history, however.  Ok, yes, 
it is possible that groups will get together to play Everquest in 100 
years, just like they camp out in Civil War replica uniforms and fire 
muskets in line.  But that experience is NOT the experience of what 
happens in virtual worlds today, i.e., it is not going to be history.  
It is still going to take place 100 years from now, no matter how you 
cut it.  For similar reasons, I disagree strongly that playing with bots 
is going to be informative, at least in terms of historical work.

In Preserving Virtual Worlds, our goal is to do both -- software 
preservation and "event" preservation (for want of a better term).   My 
emphasis on documentation of player behavior is more of a corrective to 
the idea that it's all about software preservation than it is an attempt 
to say we should only do video capture and gather documentation.  But if 
you put a gun to my head and say pick one or the other, software or 
documentation, you can't have both, as a historian I would go for 
documentation.

Last, video capture of single-player games is absolutely useful; I 
certainly agree with that statement. 

Henry

Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
>
> I just listened to both episodes. I thought they were very well done, 
> although I think they would both have been improved by video -- 
> especially the one on collectors. You can't begin to understand 
> collectors until you actually SEE some of their collections.
>
>  
>
> Henry, you made a comment in the podcast that a single player game can 
> be booted up in 100 years and enjoyed, but a multi-player game can't 
> be, because it requires other people to play, and the guy won't be 
> able to find other people to play it with him. Regardless if that is 
> true or not, it's impossible to preserve the actual experience of 
> playing the game by taking video and screenshots. The only way the guy 
> in 100 years is going to be able to have the experience of playing the 
> game is if he manages to get a whole bunch of other people to play 
> with him, or if we can design suitably convincing bots to take the 
> place of the other players.
>
>  
>
> I agree that gameplay videos have value, but the same applies to 
> gameplay videos of single player games. What is specifically added to 
> the mix by preserving gameplay videos from multi-player games? It 
> sounded from the podcast as if this was some kind of solution to the 
> problem of preserving multi-player games in general. I think it's 
> useful, but it only adds marginally to the preservation of the game 
> experience.
>
>  
>
> Stuart
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org 
> [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Henry Lowood
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:11 PM
> *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG
> *Subject:* [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
>
>  
>
> Some of you may be interested in the far-flung corners of the world 
> that the Preserving Virtual Worlds project has reached.  Others I know 
> are intensely interested in the world of game collectors.  In either 
> case, check out Robert Ashley's new podcast, A Life Well Wasted:
> http://alifewellwasted.com/feed/atom/
> The second episode covers the world of game collectors, which I have 
> to say is not so different in some ways from book collectors (said 
> from a library perspective). The last quarter or so is about our 
> project. Robert Ashley, the man behind ALWW, has said on forums he 
> might release the interview with me in its entirety.  He is a bright 
> guy and a great interviewer -- makes you wonder about all the talent 
> shaking loose from 1Up.
> Oh, the first podcast is also interesting, covering the history and 
> demise of EGM.
> Henry
>
> -- 
>
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>
>  Film & Media Collections
>
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>
> Stanford University Libraries
>
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 
> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090309/11f555cc/attachment.htm>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Mon Mar  9 19:32:23 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 23:32:23 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
In-Reply-To: <49B5A4F9.8080007@stanford.edu>
References: <49AEC42B.3020402@stanford.edu>	<49b423ba.02c3f10a.2e20.1c07@mx.google.com>
	<49B5A4F9.8080007@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <49B5A707.8050503@aarmstrong.org>

I'd like to agree with Henry here on all counts. Videos are not 
equivalent (nothing is except for a time machine), but I think 
historians will prefer that to any re-enactments - as stated, while 
Civil War guys might march around with full kit, but historians would 
kill to have a video of the lives of those soldiers (or anyone else at 
that time in history!).

If we start saying it's "Not good enough" in any way we just need to go 
back 100 years and see how little was filmed, and think how much we miss 
in history because of it (and how much actual film, audio and other 
culture has been lost permanently). It's easy to wave a hand if it's all 
you know, but certainly I'd welcome much much more to the IA's 
collections. I hope Henry got some good stuff of Tabular Rasa closing 
for instance! Once in a games lifetime experience that, not something 
that can ever be remade.

On singleplayer: Let's Play's are awesome ;) Need to check and see if 
any are being made of MMO's, there are a odd few around - gets the 
experience with commentary, which is ace :) - footage is good, footage 
with commentary (optional is best) is even better, which I intend to try 
at some point.

Reminded me to listen to these - I've added them to my MP3 player now, I 
don't know why I forgot before.

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> Hi Stuart,
>
> Well, I guess we disagree a little on the value of gameplay 
> documentation (which is not just video).   My point was that 
> documenting a complex multi-player or massively multi-player world is 
> as much about documenting events that happen in those spaces as it is 
> about preserving software.  I don't think that's marginal at all.
>
> If the focus is on "experiences," then I agree with you. That sort of 
> preservation is closer to re-enactment than history, however.  Ok, 
> yes, it is possible that groups will get together to play Everquest in 
> 100 years, just like they camp out in Civil War replica uniforms and 
> fire muskets in line.  But that experience is NOT the experience of 
> what happens in virtual worlds today, i.e., it is not going to be 
> history.  It is still going to take place 100 years from now, no 
> matter how you cut it.  For similar reasons, I disagree strongly that 
> playing with bots is going to be informative, at least in terms of 
> historical work.
>
> In Preserving Virtual Worlds, our goal is to do both -- software 
> preservation and "event" preservation (for want of a better term).   
> My emphasis on documentation of player behavior is more of a 
> corrective to the idea that it's all about software preservation than 
> it is an attempt to say we should only do video capture and gather 
> documentation.  But if you put a gun to my head and say pick one or 
> the other, software or documentation, you can't have both, as a 
> historian I would go for documentation.
>
> Last, video capture of single-player games is absolutely useful; I 
> certainly agree with that statement. 
>
> Henry
>
> Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
>>
>> I just listened to both episodes. I thought they were very well done, 
>> although I think they would both have been improved by video -- 
>> especially the one on collectors. You can't begin to understand 
>> collectors until you actually SEE some of their collections.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Henry, you made a comment in the podcast that a single player game 
>> can be booted up in 100 years and enjoyed, but a multi-player game 
>> can't be, because it requires other people to play, and the guy won't 
>> be able to find other people to play it with him. Regardless if that 
>> is true or not, it's impossible to preserve the actual experience of 
>> playing the game by taking video and screenshots. The only way the 
>> guy in 100 years is going to be able to have the experience of 
>> playing the game is if he manages to get a whole bunch of other 
>> people to play with him, or if we can design suitably convincing bots 
>> to take the place of the other players.
>>
>>  
>>
>> I agree that gameplay videos have value, but the same applies to 
>> gameplay videos of single player games. What is specifically added to 
>> the mix by preserving gameplay videos from multi-player games? It 
>> sounded from the podcast as if this was some kind of solution to the 
>> problem of preserving multi-player games in general. I think it's 
>> useful, but it only adds marginally to the preservation of the game 
>> experience.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org 
>> [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Henry Lowood
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:11 PM
>> *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG
>> *Subject:* [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
>>
>>  
>>
>> Some of you may be interested in the far-flung corners of the world 
>> that the Preserving Virtual Worlds project has reached.  Others I 
>> know are intensely interested in the world of game collectors.  In 
>> either case, check out Robert Ashley's new podcast, A Life Well Wasted:
>> http://alifewellwasted.com/feed/atom/
>> The second episode covers the world of game collectors, which I have 
>> to say is not so different in some ways from book collectors (said 
>> from a library perspective). The last quarter or so is about our 
>> project. Robert Ashley, the man behind ALWW, has said on forums he 
>> might release the interview with me in its entirety.  He is a bright 
>> guy and a great interviewer -- makes you wonder about all the talent 
>> shaking loose from 1Up.
>> Oh, the first podcast is also interesting, covering the history and 
>> demise of EGM.
>> Henry
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>
>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>
>>  Film & Media Collections
>>
>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>
>> Stanford University Libraries
>>
>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>
>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 
>> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
>
> -- 
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>  Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090309/ce5a5954/attachment.html>

From Melanie.Swalwell at flinders.edu.au  Mon Mar  9 20:03:23 2009
From: Melanie.Swalwell at flinders.edu.au (Melanie Swalwell)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:33:23 +1030
Subject: [game_preservation] Preserving Websites
In-Reply-To: <49B5440E.7020404@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49B5440E.7020404@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <49B5AE4B.2090605@flinders.edu.au>

As a very general comment, this is something that National Libraries 
tend to be interested in.  I know this from an n of 2.  Some have 
initiatives in this area (eg. the Pandora Project, at the National 
Library of Australia), while others point to the Wayback Machine.  It 
now seems to be a relatively straightforward thing for such institutions 
to accept that websites constitute "digital culture" and so are worthy 
of keeping in some way.  Getting the corresponding argument about 
software accepted is, however, another thing entirely.


Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> We need to look at some point into helping preserve websites - 
> especially ones that simply cease to be. I brought this up off list a 
> bit with Henry and Simon a while back - what pipqued my interest again 
> was this:
>
> http://www.gamecyte.com/rip-gamecyte-2008-2009
>
> A site I don't think I've ever visited, and if not then I can't recall 
> it from memory. It was operating for an entire year, and I'd no clue. 
> Well, it's stopping - but no doubt this is something to preserve in 
> some way if they then switch off the hosting next month.
>
> The IA crawlers are okay in general, for sites which don't go out of 
> business or offline, and if they are setup properly. However many 
> sites are not crawled often enough, certainly not to the level of 
> accuracy that would be acceptable for preservation (see the example 
> HotU!)
>
> Jason Scott created a task force more dedicated to grabbing sites 
> while they are still online, 
> http://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Main_Page - I will join 
> their group to see how they operate, and see if I can help or do 
> something.
>
> This is a possible project we can look at working on continually - 
> while the IGDA is both a developer orientated group (give or take) and 
> hasn't got the funding to do a physical archive, I can help put my 
> efforts into this (along with any help we're able to get) just because 
> I don't think many other places (any other places?) think about this 
> and other area's we're working on.
>
> My thoughts are to maybe just for now list websites which are 
> basically shutting with their "death date" and then requesting off the 
> owners/webmasters if possible an archived copy of the site for at 
> least dark storage on the Internet Archive, if not public access. I've 
> no idea if the more accurate/on demand Wayback scanner is another 
> route to take, although doens't that require payment to use? (while we 
> have no money ;) )
>
> Thanks in advance to anyone provides a comment, I'd not mind knowing 
> if this was worth working on in the future.
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

-- 
Dr Melanie Swalwell
Senior Lecturer, Screen and Media
& Course Coordinator, B. Media
Flinders University
GPO Box 2100
Adelaide SA 5001

125B Humanities Bldg

Ph: +61 8 8201 2619
Fax: +61 8 8201 3635

melanie.swalwell at flinders.edu.au


From evilcowclone at gmail.com  Mon Mar  9 20:09:14 2009
From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 17:09:14 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
In-Reply-To: <49B5A707.8050503@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49AEC42B.3020402@stanford.edu>
	<49b423ba.02c3f10a.2e20.1c07@mx.google.com>
	<49B5A4F9.8080007@stanford.edu> <49B5A707.8050503@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <b96706b70903091709jc28a1c1gcb529eb7a89d0b50@mail.gmail.com>

The interesting thing about game footage is currently most of what we have
is 'super play' footage; that is, players who try to beat the game as
quickly or efficiently as possible. That's not the same as actual play, in
which death and defeat is suffered and mistakes made. It doesn't allow for
elements such as exploration. 'How-to' videos don't give that sense of
exploration either, though they can be informative. So essentially, the
video database would be lacking if all we had were superplays.

-Devin

On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

>  I'd like to agree with Henry here on all counts. Videos are not equivalent
> (nothing is except for a time machine), but I think historians will prefer
> that to any re-enactments - as stated, while Civil War guys might march
> around with full kit, but historians would kill to have a video of the lives
> of those soldiers (or anyone else at that time in history!).
>
> If we start saying it's "Not good enough" in any way we just need to go
> back 100 years and see how little was filmed, and think how much we miss in
> history because of it (and how much actual film, audio and other culture has
> been lost permanently). It's easy to wave a hand if it's all you know, but
> certainly I'd welcome much much more to the IA's collections. I hope Henry
> got some good stuff of Tabular Rasa closing for instance! Once in a games
> lifetime experience that, not something that can ever be remade.
>
> On singleplayer: Let's Play's are awesome ;) Need to check and see if any
> are being made of MMO's, there are a odd few around - gets the experience
> with commentary, which is ace :) - footage is good, footage with commentary
> (optional is best) is even better, which I intend to try at some point.
>
> Reminded me to listen to these - I've added them to my MP3 player now, I
> don't know why I forgot before.
>
> Andrew
>
>
> Henry Lowood wrote:
>
> Hi Stuart,
>
> Well, I guess we disagree a little on the value of gameplay documentation
> (which is not just video).   My point was that documenting a complex
> multi-player or massively multi-player world is as much about documenting
> events that happen in those spaces as it is about preserving software.  I
> don't think that's marginal at all.
>
> If the focus is on "experiences," then I agree with you. That sort of
> preservation is closer to re-enactment than history, however.  Ok, yes, it
> is possible that groups will get together to play Everquest in 100 years,
> just like they camp out in Civil War replica uniforms and fire muskets in
> line.  But that experience is NOT the experience of what happens in virtual
> worlds today, i.e., it is not going to be history.  It is still going to
> take place 100 years from now, no matter how you cut it.  For similar
> reasons, I disagree strongly that playing with bots is going to be
> informative, at least in terms of historical work.
>
> In Preserving Virtual Worlds, our goal is to do both -- software
> preservation and "event" preservation (for want of a better term).   My
> emphasis on documentation of player behavior is more of a corrective to the
> idea that it's all about software preservation than it is an attempt to say
> we should only do video capture and gather documentation.  But if you put a
> gun to my head and say pick one or the other, software or documentation, you
> can't have both, as a historian I would go for documentation.
>
> Last, video capture of single-player games is absolutely useful; I
> certainly agree with that statement.
>
> Henry
>
> Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
>
>  I just listened to both episodes. I thought they were very well done,
> although I think they would both have been improved by video ? especially
> the one on collectors. You can?t begin to understand collectors until you
> actually SEE some of their collections.
>
>
>
> Henry, you made a comment in the podcast that a single player game can be
> booted up in 100 years and enjoyed, but a multi-player game can?t be,
> because it requires other people to play, and the guy won?t be able to find
> other people to play it with him. Regardless if that is true or not, it?s
> impossible to preserve the actual experience of playing the game by taking
> video and screenshots. The only way the guy in 100 years is going to be able
> to have the experience of playing the game is if he manages to get a whole
> bunch of other people to play with him, or if we can design suitably
> convincing bots to take the place of the other players.
>
>
>
> I agree that gameplay videos have value, but the same applies to gameplay
> videos of single player games. What is specifically added to the mix by
> preserving gameplay videos from multi-player games? It sounded from the
> podcast as if this was some kind of solution to the problem of preserving
> multi-player games in general. I think it?s useful, but it only adds
> marginally to the preservation of the game experience.
>
>
>
> Stuart
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org [
> mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org<game_preservation-bounces at igda.org>]
> *On Behalf Of *Henry Lowood
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:11 PM
> *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG
> *Subject:* [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
>
>
>
> Some of you may be interested in the far-flung corners of the world that
> the Preserving Virtual Worlds project has reached.  Others I know are
> intensely interested in the world of game collectors.  In either case, check
> out Robert Ashley's new podcast, A Life Well Wasted:
> http://alifewellwasted.com/feed/atom/
> The second episode covers the world of game collectors, which I have to say
> is not so different in some ways from book collectors (said from a library
> perspective). The last quarter or so is about our project. Robert Ashley,
> the man behind ALWW, has said on forums he might release the interview with
> me in its entirety.  He is a bright guy and a great interviewer -- makes you
> wonder about all the talent shaking loose from 1Up.
> Oh, the first podcast is also interesting, covering the history and demise
> of EGM.
> Henry
>
> --
>
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>
>  Film & Media Collections
>
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>
> Stanford University Libraries
>
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> --
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>  Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>


-- 
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

"Until next time..."
Captain Commando
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090309/3b2deaf7/attachment.html>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Mon Mar  9 20:47:05 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 00:47:05 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
In-Reply-To: <b96706b70903091709jc28a1c1gcb529eb7a89d0b50@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49AEC42B.3020402@stanford.edu>	<49b423ba.02c3f10a.2e20.1c07@mx.google.com>	<49B5A4F9.8080007@stanford.edu>
	<49B5A707.8050503@aarmstrong.org>
	<b96706b70903091709jc28a1c1gcb529eb7a89d0b50@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49B5B889.9010201@aarmstrong.org>

Let's Play's are certainly (usually) not "super plays" (many record the 
multiple attempts through a section, deaths and all) although super 
plays are a good form of seeing the pure essence of a game.

Need more pure game footage though.

Andrew

Devin Monnens wrote:
> The interesting thing about game footage is currently most of what we 
> have is 'super play' footage; that is, players who try to beat the 
> game as quickly or efficiently as possible. That's not the same as 
> actual play, in which death and defeat is suffered and mistakes made. 
> It doesn't allow for elements such as exploration. 'How-to' videos 
> don't give that sense of exploration either, though they can be 
> informative. So essentially, the video database would be lacking if 
> all we had were superplays.
>
> -Devin
>
> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Andrew Armstrong 
> <andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>> wrote:
>
>     I'd like to agree with Henry here on all counts. Videos are not
>     equivalent (nothing is except for a time machine), but I think
>     historians will prefer that to any re-enactments - as stated,
>     while Civil War guys might march around with full kit, but
>     historians would kill to have a video of the lives of those
>     soldiers (or anyone else at that time in history!).
>
>     If we start saying it's "Not good enough" in any way we just need
>     to go back 100 years and see how little was filmed, and think how
>     much we miss in history because of it (and how much actual film,
>     audio and other culture has been lost permanently). It's easy to
>     wave a hand if it's all you know, but certainly I'd welcome much
>     much more to the IA's collections. I hope Henry got some good
>     stuff of Tabular Rasa closing for instance! Once in a games
>     lifetime experience that, not something that can ever be remade.
>
>     On singleplayer: Let's Play's are awesome ;) Need to check and see
>     if any are being made of MMO's, there are a odd few around - gets
>     the experience with commentary, which is ace :) - footage is good,
>     footage with commentary (optional is best) is even better, which I
>     intend to try at some point.
>
>     Reminded me to listen to these - I've added them to my MP3 player
>     now, I don't know why I forgot before.
>
>     Andrew
>
>
>     Henry Lowood wrote:
>>     Hi Stuart,
>>
>>     Well, I guess we disagree a little on the value of gameplay
>>     documentation (which is not just video).   My point was that
>>     documenting a complex multi-player or massively multi-player
>>     world is as much about documenting events that happen in those
>>     spaces as it is about preserving software.  I don't think that's
>>     marginal at all.
>>
>>     If the focus is on "experiences," then I agree with you. That
>>     sort of preservation is closer to re-enactment than history,
>>     however.  Ok, yes, it is possible that groups will get together
>>     to play Everquest in 100 years, just like they camp out in Civil
>>     War replica uniforms and fire muskets in line.  But that
>>     experience is NOT the experience of what happens in virtual
>>     worlds today, i.e., it is not going to be history.  It is still
>>     going to take place 100 years from now, no matter how you cut
>>     it.  For similar reasons, I disagree strongly that playing with
>>     bots is going to be informative, at least in terms of historical
>>     work.
>>
>>     In Preserving Virtual Worlds, our goal is to do both -- software
>>     preservation and "event" preservation (for want of a better
>>     term).   My emphasis on documentation of player behavior is more
>>     of a corrective to the idea that it's all about software
>>     preservation than it is an attempt to say we should only do video
>>     capture and gather documentation.  But if you put a gun to my
>>     head and say pick one or the other, software or documentation,
>>     you can't have both, as a historian I would go for documentation.
>>
>>     Last, video capture of single-player games is absolutely useful;
>>     I certainly agree with that statement. 
>>
>>     Henry
>>
>>     Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
>>>
>>>     I just listened to both episodes. I thought they were very well
>>>     done, although I think they would both have been improved by
>>>     video ? especially the one on collectors. You can?t begin to
>>>     understand collectors until you actually SEE some of their
>>>     collections.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>     Henry, you made a comment in the podcast that a single player
>>>     game can be booted up in 100 years and enjoyed, but a
>>>     multi-player game can?t be, because it requires other people to
>>>     play, and the guy won?t be able to find other people to play it
>>>     with him. Regardless if that is true or not, it?s impossible to
>>>     preserve the actual experience of playing the game by taking
>>>     video and screenshots. The only way the guy in 100 years is
>>>     going to be able to have the experience of playing the game is
>>>     if he manages to get a whole bunch of other people to play with
>>>     him, or if we can design suitably convincing bots to take the
>>>     place of the other players.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>     I agree that gameplay videos have value, but the same applies to
>>>     gameplay videos of single player games. What is specifically
>>>     added to the mix by preserving gameplay videos from multi-player
>>>     games? It sounded from the podcast as if this was some kind of
>>>     solution to the problem of preserving multi-player games in
>>>     general. I think it?s useful, but it only adds marginally to the
>>>     preservation of the game experience.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>     Stuart
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>     *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org
>>>     <mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org>
>>>     [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Henry
>>>     Lowood
>>>     *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:11 PM
>>>     *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG
>>>     *Subject:* [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>     Some of you may be interested in the far-flung corners of the
>>>     world that the Preserving Virtual Worlds project has reached. 
>>>     Others I know are intensely interested in the world of game
>>>     collectors.  In either case, check out Robert Ashley's new
>>>     podcast, A Life Well Wasted:
>>>     http://alifewellwasted.com/feed/atom/
>>>     The second episode covers the world of game collectors, which I
>>>     have to say is not so different in some ways from book
>>>     collectors (said from a library perspective). The last quarter
>>>     or so is about our project. Robert Ashley, the man behind ALWW,
>>>     has said on forums he might release the interview with me in its
>>>     entirety.  He is a bright guy and a great interviewer -- makes
>>>     you wonder about all the talent shaking loose from 1Up.
>>>     Oh, the first podcast is also interesting, covering the history
>>>     and demise of EGM.
>>>     Henry
>>>
>>>     -- 
>>>
>>>     Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>>
>>>     Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>>
>>>      Film & Media Collections
>>>
>>>     HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>>
>>>     Stanford University Libraries
>>>
>>>     Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>>
>>>     650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>;
>>>     http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>>
>>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>       
>>
>>     -- 
>>     Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>     Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>      Film & Media Collections
>>     HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>     Stanford University Libraries
>>     Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>     650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>;
>>     http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>       
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>
> "Until next time..."
> Captain Commando
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090310/fbbd632c/attachment.html>

From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com  Mon Mar  9 23:42:58 2009
From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 23:42:58 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
In-Reply-To: <49B5A4F9.8080007@stanford.edu>
References: <49AEC42B.3020402@stanford.edu>
	<49b423ba.02c3f10a.2e20.1c07@mx.google.com>
	<49B5A4F9.8080007@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <49b5e1cc.4403be0a.0179.7cb6@mx.google.com>

Henry,

 

It sounds like we don't disagree much at all, actually.  : ) I was talking
about preserving the experience, and only in that context, but I agree that
preserving the events in a multiplayer world is also important.

 

Bottom line - you really can't fully preserve the experience of an MMO.
That's why I made sure to play Majestic before it died, knowing it would
die. Same for other MMOs like Uru. (Can you tell I'm more of an adventure
gamer than an RPGer?)

 

The only place where we disagree is that although I want both, if you put a
gun to my head I would have to pick the software over the documentation, at
least for a single player game. Or were you only talking about MMOs?

 

Stuart

 

From: Henry Lowood [mailto:lowood at stanford.edu] 
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:24 PM
To: stuart at feldhamer.com; IGDA Game Preservation SIG
Subject: Re: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted

 

Hi Stuart,

Well, I guess we disagree a little on the value of gameplay documentation
(which is not just video).   My point was that documenting a complex
multi-player or massively multi-player world is as much about documenting
events that happen in those spaces as it is about preserving software.  I
don't think that's marginal at all.

If the focus is on "experiences," then I agree with you. That sort of
preservation is closer to re-enactment than history, however.  Ok, yes, it
is possible that groups will get together to play Everquest in 100 years,
just like they camp out in Civil War replica uniforms and fire muskets in
line.  But that experience is NOT the experience of what happens in virtual
worlds today, i.e., it is not going to be history.  It is still going to
take place 100 years from now, no matter how you cut it.  For similar
reasons, I disagree strongly that playing with bots is going to be
informative, at least in terms of historical work. 

In Preserving Virtual Worlds, our goal is to do both -- software
preservation and "event" preservation (for want of a better term).   My
emphasis on documentation of player behavior is more of a corrective to the
idea that it's all about software preservation than it is an attempt to say
we should only do video capture and gather documentation.  But if you put a
gun to my head and say pick one or the other, software or documentation, you
can't have both, as a historian I would go for documentation.

Last, video capture of single-player games is absolutely useful; I certainly
agree with that statement.  

Henry

Stuart Feldhamer wrote: 

I just listened to both episodes. I thought they were very well done,
although I think they would both have been improved by video - especially
the one on collectors. You can't begin to understand collectors until you
actually SEE some of their collections.

 

Henry, you made a comment in the podcast that a single player game can be
booted up in 100 years and enjoyed, but a multi-player game can't be,
because it requires other people to play, and the guy won't be able to find
other people to play it with him. Regardless if that is true or not, it's
impossible to preserve the actual experience of playing the game by taking
video and screenshots. The only way the guy in 100 years is going to be able
to have the experience of playing the game is if he manages to get a whole
bunch of other people to play with him, or if we can design suitably
convincing bots to take the place of the other players.

 

I agree that gameplay videos have value, but the same applies to gameplay
videos of single player games. What is specifically added to the mix by
preserving gameplay videos from multi-player games? It sounded from the
podcast as if this was some kind of solution to the problem of preserving
multi-player games in general. I think it's useful, but it only adds
marginally to the preservation of the game experience.

 

Stuart

 

 

From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Henry Lowood
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:11 PM
To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG
Subject: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted

 

Some of you may be interested in the far-flung corners of the world that the
Preserving Virtual Worlds project has reached.  Others I know are intensely
interested in the world of game collectors.  In either case, check out
Robert Ashley's new podcast, A Life Well Wasted:
http://alifewellwasted.com/feed/atom/
The second episode covers the world of game collectors, which I have to say
is not so different in some ways from book collectors (said from a library
perspective). The last quarter or so is about our project. Robert Ashley,
the man behind ALWW, has said on forums he might release the interview with
me in its entirety.  He is a bright guy and a great interviewer -- makes you
wonder about all the talent shaking loose from 1Up.
Oh, the first podcast is also interesting, covering the history and demise
of EGM.
Henry 

-- 

Henry Lowood, Ph.D.

Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;

 Film & Media Collections

HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford CA 94305-6004

650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>  

 



  _____  



 
_______________________________________________
game_preservation mailing list
game_preservation at igda.org
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
  

 

-- 

Henry Lowood, Ph.D.

Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;

 Film & Media Collections

HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford CA 94305-6004

650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>  

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090309/32b01707/attachment.htm>

From lowood at stanford.edu  Mon Mar  9 23:56:40 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 20:56:40 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
In-Reply-To: <49b5e1cc.4403be0a.0179.7cb6@mx.google.com>
References: <49AEC42B.3020402@stanford.edu>
	<49b423ba.02c3f10a.2e20.1c07@mx.google.com>
	<49B5A4F9.8080007@stanford.edu>
	<49b5e1cc.4403be0a.0179.7cb6@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <49B5E4F8.6010203@stanford.edu>

Stuart,

Yes, that's right for multiplayer games; for single player, I would 
probably pick software, too.   (Though of course, when you take the gun 
away, I will want it all.)

Henry

Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
>
> Henry,
>
>  
>
> It sounds like we don't disagree much at all, actually.  : ) I was 
> talking about preserving the experience, and only in that context, but 
> I agree that preserving the events in a multiplayer world is also 
> important.
>
>  
>
> Bottom line -- you really can't fully preserve the experience of an 
> MMO. That's why I made sure to play Majestic before it died, knowing 
> it would die. Same for other MMOs like Uru. (Can you tell I'm more of 
> an adventure gamer than an RPGer?)
>
>  
>
> The only place where we disagree is that although I want both, if you 
> put a gun to my head I would have to pick the software over the 
> documentation, at least for a single player game. Or were you only 
> talking about MMOs?
>
>  
>
> Stuart
>
>  
>
> *From:* Henry Lowood [mailto:lowood at stanford.edu]
> *Sent:* Monday, March 09, 2009 7:24 PM
> *To:* stuart at feldhamer.com; IGDA Game Preservation SIG
> *Subject:* Re: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
>
>  
>
> Hi Stuart,
>
> Well, I guess we disagree a little on the value of gameplay 
> documentation (which is not just video).   My point was that 
> documenting a complex multi-player or massively multi-player world is 
> as much about documenting events that happen in those spaces as it is 
> about preserving software.  I don't think that's marginal at all.
>
> If the focus is on "experiences," then I agree with you. That sort of 
> preservation is closer to re-enactment than history, however.  Ok, 
> yes, it is possible that groups will get together to play Everquest in 
> 100 years, just like they camp out in Civil War replica uniforms and 
> fire muskets in line.  But that experience is NOT the experience of 
> what happens in virtual worlds today, i.e., it is not going to be 
> history.  It is still going to take place 100 years from now, no 
> matter how you cut it.  For similar reasons, I disagree strongly that 
> playing with bots is going to be informative, at least in terms of 
> historical work.
>
> In Preserving Virtual Worlds, our goal is to do both -- software 
> preservation and "event" preservation (for want of a better term).   
> My emphasis on documentation of player behavior is more of a 
> corrective to the idea that it's all about software preservation than 
> it is an attempt to say we should only do video capture and gather 
> documentation.  But if you put a gun to my head and say pick one or 
> the other, software or documentation, you can't have both, as a 
> historian I would go for documentation.
>
> Last, video capture of single-player games is absolutely useful; I 
> certainly agree with that statement. 
>
> Henry
>
> Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
>
> I just listened to both episodes. I thought they were very well done, 
> although I think they would both have been improved by video -- 
> especially the one on collectors. You can't begin to understand 
> collectors until you actually SEE some of their collections.
>
>  
>
> Henry, you made a comment in the podcast that a single player game can 
> be booted up in 100 years and enjoyed, but a multi-player game can't 
> be, because it requires other people to play, and the guy won't be 
> able to find other people to play it with him. Regardless if that is 
> true or not, it's impossible to preserve the actual experience of 
> playing the game by taking video and screenshots. The only way the guy 
> in 100 years is going to be able to have the experience of playing the 
> game is if he manages to get a whole bunch of other people to play 
> with him, or if we can design suitably convincing bots to take the 
> place of the other players.
>
>  
>
> I agree that gameplay videos have value, but the same applies to 
> gameplay videos of single player games. What is specifically added to 
> the mix by preserving gameplay videos from multi-player games? It 
> sounded from the podcast as if this was some kind of solution to the 
> problem of preserving multi-player games in general. I think it's 
> useful, but it only adds marginally to the preservation of the game 
> experience.
>
>  
>
> Stuart
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org 
> <mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org> 
> [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Henry Lowood
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:11 PM
> *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG
> *Subject:* [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
>
>  
>
> Some of you may be interested in the far-flung corners of the world 
> that the Preserving Virtual Worlds project has reached.  Others I know 
> are intensely interested in the world of game collectors.  In either 
> case, check out Robert Ashley's new podcast, A Life Well Wasted:
> http://alifewellwasted.com/feed/atom/
> The second episode covers the world of game collectors, which I have 
> to say is not so different in some ways from book collectors (said 
> from a library perspective). The last quarter or so is about our 
> project. Robert Ashley, the man behind ALWW, has said on forums he 
> might release the interview with me in its entirety.  He is a bright 
> guy and a great interviewer -- makes you wonder about all the talent 
> shaking loose from 1Up.
> Oh, the first podcast is also interesting, covering the history and 
> demise of EGM.
> Henry
>
> -- 
>
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>
>  Film & Media Collections
>
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>
> Stanford University Libraries
>
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 
> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>   
>  
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
>
>  
>
> -- 
>
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>
>  Film & Media Collections
>
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>
> Stanford University Libraries
>
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 
> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090309/f37c6995/attachment.html>

From lowood at stanford.edu  Tue Mar 10 01:43:00 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 22:43:00 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
In-Reply-To: <b96706b70903091709jc28a1c1gcb529eb7a89d0b50@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49AEC42B.3020402@stanford.edu>	<49b423ba.02c3f10a.2e20.1c07@mx.google.com>	<49B5A4F9.8080007@stanford.edu>
	<49B5A707.8050503@aarmstrong.org>
	<b96706b70903091709jc28a1c1gcb529eb7a89d0b50@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49B5FDE4.90209@stanford.edu>

Devin,

IA has other collections for replays, speedruns and such -- as well as 
machinima, for that matter.  The Archiving Virtual Worlds collection is 
more like what you are talking about, documentary footage of in-game 
events and activities, plus live footage with people engaged with game 
and virtual worlds.

Henry

Devin Monnens wrote:
> The interesting thing about game footage is currently most of what we 
> have is 'super play' footage; that is, players who try to beat the 
> game as quickly or efficiently as possible. That's not the same as 
> actual play, in which death and defeat is suffered and mistakes made. 
> It doesn't allow for elements such as exploration. 'How-to' videos 
> don't give that sense of exploration either, though they can be 
> informative. So essentially, the video database would be lacking if 
> all we had were superplays.
>
> -Devin
>
> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Andrew Armstrong 
> <andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>> wrote:
>
>     I'd like to agree with Henry here on all counts. Videos are not
>     equivalent (nothing is except for a time machine), but I think
>     historians will prefer that to any re-enactments - as stated,
>     while Civil War guys might march around with full kit, but
>     historians would kill to have a video of the lives of those
>     soldiers (or anyone else at that time in history!).
>
>     If we start saying it's "Not good enough" in any way we just need
>     to go back 100 years and see how little was filmed, and think how
>     much we miss in history because of it (and how much actual film,
>     audio and other culture has been lost permanently). It's easy to
>     wave a hand if it's all you know, but certainly I'd welcome much
>     much more to the IA's collections. I hope Henry got some good
>     stuff of Tabular Rasa closing for instance! Once in a games
>     lifetime experience that, not something that can ever be remade.
>
>     On singleplayer: Let's Play's are awesome ;) Need to check and see
>     if any are being made of MMO's, there are a odd few around - gets
>     the experience with commentary, which is ace :) - footage is good,
>     footage with commentary (optional is best) is even better, which I
>     intend to try at some point.
>
>     Reminded me to listen to these - I've added them to my MP3 player
>     now, I don't know why I forgot before.
>
>     Andrew
>
>
>     Henry Lowood wrote:
>>     Hi Stuart,
>>
>>     Well, I guess we disagree a little on the value of gameplay
>>     documentation (which is not just video).   My point was that
>>     documenting a complex multi-player or massively multi-player
>>     world is as much about documenting events that happen in those
>>     spaces as it is about preserving software.  I don't think that's
>>     marginal at all.
>>
>>     If the focus is on "experiences," then I agree with you. That
>>     sort of preservation is closer to re-enactment than history,
>>     however.  Ok, yes, it is possible that groups will get together
>>     to play Everquest in 100 years, just like they camp out in Civil
>>     War replica uniforms and fire muskets in line.  But that
>>     experience is NOT the experience of what happens in virtual
>>     worlds today, i.e., it is not going to be history.  It is still
>>     going to take place 100 years from now, no matter how you cut
>>     it.  For similar reasons, I disagree strongly that playing with
>>     bots is going to be informative, at least in terms of historical
>>     work.
>>
>>     In Preserving Virtual Worlds, our goal is to do both -- software
>>     preservation and "event" preservation (for want of a better
>>     term).   My emphasis on documentation of player behavior is more
>>     of a corrective to the idea that it's all about software
>>     preservation than it is an attempt to say we should only do video
>>     capture and gather documentation.  But if you put a gun to my
>>     head and say pick one or the other, software or documentation,
>>     you can't have both, as a historian I would go for documentation.
>>
>>     Last, video capture of single-player games is absolutely useful;
>>     I certainly agree with that statement. 
>>
>>     Henry
>>
>>     Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
>>>
>>>     I just listened to both episodes. I thought they were very well
>>>     done, although I think they would both have been improved by
>>>     video ? especially the one on collectors. You can?t begin to
>>>     understand collectors until you actually SEE some of their
>>>     collections.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>     Henry, you made a comment in the podcast that a single player
>>>     game can be booted up in 100 years and enjoyed, but a
>>>     multi-player game can?t be, because it requires other people to
>>>     play, and the guy won?t be able to find other people to play it
>>>     with him. Regardless if that is true or not, it?s impossible to
>>>     preserve the actual experience of playing the game by taking
>>>     video and screenshots. The only way the guy in 100 years is
>>>     going to be able to have the experience of playing the game is
>>>     if he manages to get a whole bunch of other people to play with
>>>     him, or if we can design suitably convincing bots to take the
>>>     place of the other players.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>     I agree that gameplay videos have value, but the same applies to
>>>     gameplay videos of single player games. What is specifically
>>>     added to the mix by preserving gameplay videos from multi-player
>>>     games? It sounded from the podcast as if this was some kind of
>>>     solution to the problem of preserving multi-player games in
>>>     general. I think it?s useful, but it only adds marginally to the
>>>     preservation of the game experience.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>     Stuart
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>     *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org
>>>     <mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org>
>>>     [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Henry
>>>     Lowood
>>>     *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:11 PM
>>>     *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG
>>>     *Subject:* [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>     Some of you may be interested in the far-flung corners of the
>>>     world that the Preserving Virtual Worlds project has reached. 
>>>     Others I know are intensely interested in the world of game
>>>     collectors.  In either case, check out Robert Ashley's new
>>>     podcast, A Life Well Wasted:
>>>     http://alifewellwasted.com/feed/atom/
>>>     The second episode covers the world of game collectors, which I
>>>     have to say is not so different in some ways from book
>>>     collectors (said from a library perspective). The last quarter
>>>     or so is about our project. Robert Ashley, the man behind ALWW,
>>>     has said on forums he might release the interview with me in its
>>>     entirety.  He is a bright guy and a great interviewer -- makes
>>>     you wonder about all the talent shaking loose from 1Up.
>>>     Oh, the first podcast is also interesting, covering the history
>>>     and demise of EGM.
>>>     Henry
>>>
>>>     -- 
>>>
>>>     Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>>
>>>     Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>>
>>>      Film & Media Collections
>>>
>>>     HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>>
>>>     Stanford University Libraries
>>>
>>>     Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>>
>>>     650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>;
>>>     http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>>
>>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>       
>>
>>     -- 
>>     Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>     Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>      Film & Media Collections
>>     HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>     Stanford University Libraries
>>     Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>     650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>;
>>     http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>       
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>
> "Until next time..."
> Captain Commando
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090309/ae4ed8e7/attachment.htm>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Tue Mar 10 05:17:35 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 09:17:35 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
In-Reply-To: <49B5E4F8.6010203@stanford.edu>
References: <49AEC42B.3020402@stanford.edu>	<49b423ba.02c3f10a.2e20.1c07@mx.google.com>	<49B5A4F9.8080007@stanford.edu>	<49b5e1cc.4403be0a.0179.7cb6@mx.google.com>
	<49B5E4F8.6010203@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <49B6302F.8010506@aarmstrong.org>

I'd take the software for singleplayer because then you can make the 
videos from it ;) you can't do that the other way around (the opposite 
is true for the experiences of a multiplayer game - you can't recreate 
it in software, but can at least record on perspective in video/sound).

The podcast also was interesting (especially on the collector who was 
much more open then some) - we do need to see about the related areas of 
pinball and mechanical machines. Also need to sort the "Game Audio" 
collection so we can get podcasts like this (and general gaming 
podcasts) stored at the IA (man so many groups to contact for that, even 
just retro / historical / critical podcasts or audio. I need some 
students to pick on to help like you're able to get Henry :D ).

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> Stuart,
>
> Yes, that's right for multiplayer games; for single player, I would 
> probably pick software, too.   (Though of course, when you take the 
> gun away, I will want it all.)
>
> Henry
>
> Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
>>
>> Henry,
>>
>>  
>>
>> It sounds like we don't disagree much at all, actually.  : ) I was 
>> talking about preserving the experience, and only in that context, 
>> but I agree that preserving the events in a multiplayer world is also 
>> important.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Bottom line -- you really can't fully preserve the experience of an 
>> MMO. That's why I made sure to play Majestic before it died, knowing 
>> it would die. Same for other MMOs like Uru. (Can you tell I'm more of 
>> an adventure gamer than an RPGer?)
>>
>>  
>>
>> The only place where we disagree is that although I want both, if you 
>> put a gun to my head I would have to pick the software over the 
>> documentation, at least for a single player game. Or were you only 
>> talking about MMOs?
>>
>>  
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>>  
>>
>> *From:* Henry Lowood [mailto:lowood at stanford.edu]
>> *Sent:* Monday, March 09, 2009 7:24 PM
>> *To:* stuart at feldhamer.com; IGDA Game Preservation SIG
>> *Subject:* Re: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
>>
>>  
>>
>> Hi Stuart,
>>
>> Well, I guess we disagree a little on the value of gameplay 
>> documentation (which is not just video).   My point was that 
>> documenting a complex multi-player or massively multi-player world is 
>> as much about documenting events that happen in those spaces as it is 
>> about preserving software.  I don't think that's marginal at all.
>>
>> If the focus is on "experiences," then I agree with you. That sort of 
>> preservation is closer to re-enactment than history, however.  Ok, 
>> yes, it is possible that groups will get together to play Everquest 
>> in 100 years, just like they camp out in Civil War replica uniforms 
>> and fire muskets in line.  But that experience is NOT the experience 
>> of what happens in virtual worlds today, i.e., it is not going to be 
>> history.  It is still going to take place 100 years from now, no 
>> matter how you cut it.  For similar reasons, I disagree strongly that 
>> playing with bots is going to be informative, at least in terms of 
>> historical work.
>>
>> In Preserving Virtual Worlds, our goal is to do both -- software 
>> preservation and "event" preservation (for want of a better term).   
>> My emphasis on documentation of player behavior is more of a 
>> corrective to the idea that it's all about software preservation than 
>> it is an attempt to say we should only do video capture and gather 
>> documentation.  But if you put a gun to my head and say pick one or 
>> the other, software or documentation, you can't have both, as a 
>> historian I would go for documentation.
>>
>> Last, video capture of single-player games is absolutely useful; I 
>> certainly agree with that statement. 
>>
>> Henry
>>
>> Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
>>
>> I just listened to both episodes. I thought they were very well done, 
>> although I think they would both have been improved by video -- 
>> especially the one on collectors. You can't begin to understand 
>> collectors until you actually SEE some of their collections.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Henry, you made a comment in the podcast that a single player game 
>> can be booted up in 100 years and enjoyed, but a multi-player game 
>> can't be, because it requires other people to play, and the guy won't 
>> be able to find other people to play it with him. Regardless if that 
>> is true or not, it's impossible to preserve the actual experience of 
>> playing the game by taking video and screenshots. The only way the 
>> guy in 100 years is going to be able to have the experience of 
>> playing the game is if he manages to get a whole bunch of other 
>> people to play with him, or if we can design suitably convincing bots 
>> to take the place of the other players.
>>
>>  
>>
>> I agree that gameplay videos have value, but the same applies to 
>> gameplay videos of single player games. What is specifically added to 
>> the mix by preserving gameplay videos from multi-player games? It 
>> sounded from the podcast as if this was some kind of solution to the 
>> problem of preserving multi-player games in general. I think it's 
>> useful, but it only adds marginally to the preservation of the game 
>> experience.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org 
>> <mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org> 
>> [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Henry Lowood
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:11 PM
>> *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG
>> *Subject:* [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
>>
>>  
>>
>> Some of you may be interested in the far-flung corners of the world 
>> that the Preserving Virtual Worlds project has reached.  Others I 
>> know are intensely interested in the world of game collectors.  In 
>> either case, check out Robert Ashley's new podcast, A Life Well Wasted:
>> http://alifewellwasted.com/feed/atom/
>> The second episode covers the world of game collectors, which I have 
>> to say is not so different in some ways from book collectors (said 
>> from a library perspective). The last quarter or so is about our 
>> project. Robert Ashley, the man behind ALWW, has said on forums he 
>> might release the interview with me in its entirety.  He is a bright 
>> guy and a great interviewer -- makes you wonder about all the talent 
>> shaking loose from 1Up.
>> Oh, the first podcast is also interesting, covering the history and 
>> demise of EGM.
>> Henry
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>
>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>
>>  Film & Media Collections
>>
>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>
>> Stanford University Libraries
>>
>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>
>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 
>> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>
>>  
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>   
>>  
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
>>
>>  
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>
>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>
>>  Film & Media Collections
>>
>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>
>> Stanford University Libraries
>>
>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>
>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 
>> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>
>
> -- 
> Henry Lowood
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>      Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library
> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
> lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090310/0ae78e96/attachment.html>

From lowood at stanford.edu  Tue Mar 10 12:31:56 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 09:31:56 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
In-Reply-To: <49B5A707.8050503@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49AEC42B.3020402@stanford.edu>	<49b423ba.02c3f10a.2e20.1c07@mx.google.com>	<49B5A4F9.8080007@stanford.edu>
	<49B5A707.8050503@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <49B695FC.4000704@stanford.edu>

Andrew,

A propos Tabula Rasa, we are in touch with the guys who documented the 
last moments and have permission to add their video to the collection. 
So yes, we got it.

Henry

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> I'd like to agree with Henry here on all counts. Videos are not 
> equivalent (nothing is except for a time machine), but I think 
> historians will prefer that to any re-enactments - as stated, while 
> Civil War guys might march around with full kit, but historians would 
> kill to have a video of the lives of those soldiers (or anyone else at 
> that time in history!).
>
> If we start saying it's "Not good enough" in any way we just need to 
> go back 100 years and see how little was filmed, and think how much we 
> miss in history because of it (and how much actual film, audio and 
> other culture has been lost permanently). It's easy to wave a hand if 
> it's all you know, but certainly I'd welcome much much more to the 
> IA's collections. I hope Henry got some good stuff of Tabular Rasa 
> closing for instance! Once in a games lifetime experience that, not 
> something that can ever be remade.
>
> On singleplayer: Let's Play's are awesome ;) Need to check and see if 
> any are being made of MMO's, there are a odd few around - gets the 
> experience with commentary, which is ace :) - footage is good, footage 
> with commentary (optional is best) is even better, which I intend to 
> try at some point.
>
> Reminded me to listen to these - I've added them to my MP3 player now, 
> I don't know why I forgot before.
>
> Andrew
>
> Henry Lowood wrote:
>> Hi Stuart,
>>
>> Well, I guess we disagree a little on the value of gameplay 
>> documentation (which is not just video).   My point was that 
>> documenting a complex multi-player or massively multi-player world is 
>> as much about documenting events that happen in those spaces as it is 
>> about preserving software.  I don't think that's marginal at all.
>>
>> If the focus is on "experiences," then I agree with you. That sort of 
>> preservation is closer to re-enactment than history, however.  Ok, 
>> yes, it is possible that groups will get together to play Everquest 
>> in 100 years, just like they camp out in Civil War replica uniforms 
>> and fire muskets in line.  But that experience is NOT the experience 
>> of what happens in virtual worlds today, i.e., it is not going to be 
>> history.  It is still going to take place 100 years from now, no 
>> matter how you cut it.  For similar reasons, I disagree strongly that 
>> playing with bots is going to be informative, at least in terms of 
>> historical work.
>>
>> In Preserving Virtual Worlds, our goal is to do both -- software 
>> preservation and "event" preservation (for want of a better term).   
>> My emphasis on documentation of player behavior is more of a 
>> corrective to the idea that it's all about software preservation than 
>> it is an attempt to say we should only do video capture and gather 
>> documentation.  But if you put a gun to my head and say pick one or 
>> the other, software or documentation, you can't have both, as a 
>> historian I would go for documentation.
>>
>> Last, video capture of single-player games is absolutely useful; I 
>> certainly agree with that statement. 
>>
>> Henry
>>
>> Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
>>>
>>> I just listened to both episodes. I thought they were very well 
>>> done, although I think they would both have been improved by video 
>>> -- especially the one on collectors. You can't begin to understand 
>>> collectors until you actually SEE some of their collections.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Henry, you made a comment in the podcast that a single player game 
>>> can be booted up in 100 years and enjoyed, but a multi-player game 
>>> can't be, because it requires other people to play, and the guy 
>>> won't be able to find other people to play it with him. Regardless 
>>> if that is true or not, it's impossible to preserve the actual 
>>> experience of playing the game by taking video and screenshots. The 
>>> only way the guy in 100 years is going to be able to have the 
>>> experience of playing the game is if he manages to get a whole bunch 
>>> of other people to play with him, or if we can design suitably 
>>> convincing bots to take the place of the other players.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> I agree that gameplay videos have value, but the same applies to 
>>> gameplay videos of single player games. What is specifically added 
>>> to the mix by preserving gameplay videos from multi-player games? It 
>>> sounded from the podcast as if this was some kind of solution to the 
>>> problem of preserving multi-player games in general. I think it's 
>>> useful, but it only adds marginally to the preservation of the game 
>>> experience.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Stuart
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org 
>>> [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Henry Lowood
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:11 PM
>>> *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG
>>> *Subject:* [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Some of you may be interested in the far-flung corners of the world 
>>> that the Preserving Virtual Worlds project has reached.  Others I 
>>> know are intensely interested in the world of game collectors.  In 
>>> either case, check out Robert Ashley's new podcast, A Life Well Wasted:
>>> http://alifewellwasted.com/feed/atom/
>>> The second episode covers the world of game collectors, which I have 
>>> to say is not so different in some ways from book collectors (said 
>>> from a library perspective). The last quarter or so is about our 
>>> project. Robert Ashley, the man behind ALWW, has said on forums he 
>>> might release the interview with me in its entirety.  He is a bright 
>>> guy and a great interviewer -- makes you wonder about all the talent 
>>> shaking loose from 1Up.
>>> Oh, the first podcast is also interesting, covering the history and 
>>> demise of EGM.
>>> Henry
>>>
>>> -- 
>>>
>>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>>
>>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>>
>>>  Film & Media Collections
>>>
>>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>>
>>> Stanford University Libraries
>>>
>>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>>
>>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 
>>> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>   
>>
>> -- 
>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>  Film & Media Collections
>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>> Stanford University Libraries
>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
>> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090310/5f938976/attachment.html>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Tue Mar 10 12:34:52 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:34:52 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
In-Reply-To: <49B695FC.4000704@stanford.edu>
References: <49AEC42B.3020402@stanford.edu>	<49b423ba.02c3f10a.2e20.1c07@mx.google.com>	<49B5A4F9.8080007@stanford.edu>	<49B5A707.8050503@aarmstrong.org>
	<49B695FC.4000704@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <49B696AC.5070101@aarmstrong.org>

Cool! I heard "good things" from Idle Thumbs, after Chris Remo stopped 
dicking around saying he was a new player ;)

Thought it'd be interesting to see, if I wasn't busy that weekend I'd 
have gone in myself and got a bit of stuff.

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> Andrew,
>
> A propos Tabula Rasa, we are in touch with the guys who documented the 
> last moments and have permission to add their video to the collection. 
> So yes, we got it.
>
> Henry
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>> I'd like to agree with Henry here on all counts. Videos are not 
>> equivalent (nothing is except for a time machine), but I think 
>> historians will prefer that to any re-enactments - as stated, while 
>> Civil War guys might march around with full kit, but historians would 
>> kill to have a video of the lives of those soldiers (or anyone else 
>> at that time in history!).
>>
>> If we start saying it's "Not good enough" in any way we just need to 
>> go back 100 years and see how little was filmed, and think how much 
>> we miss in history because of it (and how much actual film, audio and 
>> other culture has been lost permanently). It's easy to wave a hand if 
>> it's all you know, but certainly I'd welcome much much more to the 
>> IA's collections. I hope Henry got some good stuff of Tabular Rasa 
>> closing for instance! Once in a games lifetime experience that, not 
>> something that can ever be remade.
>>
>> On singleplayer: Let's Play's are awesome ;) Need to check and see if 
>> any are being made of MMO's, there are a odd few around - gets the 
>> experience with commentary, which is ace :) - footage is good, 
>> footage with commentary (optional is best) is even better, which I 
>> intend to try at some point.
>>
>> Reminded me to listen to these - I've added them to my MP3 player 
>> now, I don't know why I forgot before.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Henry Lowood wrote:
>>> Hi Stuart,
>>>
>>> Well, I guess we disagree a little on the value of gameplay 
>>> documentation (which is not just video).   My point was that 
>>> documenting a complex multi-player or massively multi-player world 
>>> is as much about documenting events that happen in those spaces as 
>>> it is about preserving software.  I don't think that's marginal at all.
>>>
>>> If the focus is on "experiences," then I agree with you. That sort 
>>> of preservation is closer to re-enactment than history, however.  
>>> Ok, yes, it is possible that groups will get together to play 
>>> Everquest in 100 years, just like they camp out in Civil War replica 
>>> uniforms and fire muskets in line.  But that experience is NOT the 
>>> experience of what happens in virtual worlds today, i.e., it is not 
>>> going to be history.  It is still going to take place 100 years from 
>>> now, no matter how you cut it.  For similar reasons, I disagree 
>>> strongly that playing with bots is going to be informative, at least 
>>> in terms of historical work.
>>>
>>> In Preserving Virtual Worlds, our goal is to do both -- software 
>>> preservation and "event" preservation (for want of a better term).   
>>> My emphasis on documentation of player behavior is more of a 
>>> corrective to the idea that it's all about software preservation 
>>> than it is an attempt to say we should only do video capture and 
>>> gather documentation.  But if you put a gun to my head and say pick 
>>> one or the other, software or documentation, you can't have both, as 
>>> a historian I would go for documentation.
>>>
>>> Last, video capture of single-player games is absolutely useful; I 
>>> certainly agree with that statement. 
>>>
>>> Henry
>>>
>>> Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I just listened to both episodes. I thought they were very well 
>>>> done, although I think they would both have been improved by video 
>>>> -- especially the one on collectors. You can't begin to understand 
>>>> collectors until you actually SEE some of their collections.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Henry, you made a comment in the podcast that a single player game 
>>>> can be booted up in 100 years and enjoyed, but a multi-player game 
>>>> can't be, because it requires other people to play, and the guy 
>>>> won't be able to find other people to play it with him. Regardless 
>>>> if that is true or not, it's impossible to preserve the actual 
>>>> experience of playing the game by taking video and screenshots. The 
>>>> only way the guy in 100 years is going to be able to have the 
>>>> experience of playing the game is if he manages to get a whole 
>>>> bunch of other people to play with him, or if we can design 
>>>> suitably convincing bots to take the place of the other players.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> I agree that gameplay videos have value, but the same applies to 
>>>> gameplay videos of single player games. What is specifically added 
>>>> to the mix by preserving gameplay videos from multi-player games? 
>>>> It sounded from the podcast as if this was some kind of solution to 
>>>> the problem of preserving multi-player games in general. I think 
>>>> it's useful, but it only adds marginally to the preservation of the 
>>>> game experience.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Stuart
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org 
>>>> [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Henry Lowood
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:11 PM
>>>> *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG
>>>> *Subject:* [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Some of you may be interested in the far-flung corners of the world 
>>>> that the Preserving Virtual Worlds project has reached.  Others I 
>>>> know are intensely interested in the world of game collectors.  In 
>>>> either case, check out Robert Ashley's new podcast, A Life Well Wasted:
>>>> http://alifewellwasted.com/feed/atom/
>>>> The second episode covers the world of game collectors, which I 
>>>> have to say is not so different in some ways from book collectors 
>>>> (said from a library perspective). The last quarter or so is about 
>>>> our project. Robert Ashley, the man behind ALWW, has said on forums 
>>>> he might release the interview with me in its entirety.  He is a 
>>>> bright guy and a great interviewer -- makes you wonder about all 
>>>> the talent shaking loose from 1Up.
>>>> Oh, the first podcast is also interesting, covering the history and 
>>>> demise of EGM.
>>>> Henry
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>>
>>>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>>>
>>>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>>>
>>>>  Film & Media Collections
>>>>
>>>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>>>
>>>> Stanford University Libraries
>>>>
>>>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>>>
>>>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 
>>>> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>>   
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>>  Film & Media Collections
>>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>> Stanford University Libraries
>>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
>>> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>   
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
>
> -- 
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>  Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090310/4602e588/attachment.htm>

From sjwebley at nildram.co.uk  Wed Mar 11 12:58:11 2009
From: sjwebley at nildram.co.uk (Sjwebley)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 16:58:11 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] game_preservation Digest, Vol 38, Issue 11
Message-ID: <20090311165813.23EEDAE80@mailwash7.pair.com>

--------- Original Message --------
From: game_preservation at igda.org
To: game_preservation at igda.org <game_preservation at igda.org>
Subject: game_preservation Digest, Vol 38, Issue 11
Date: 11/03/09 16:00

> Hi Guys, I would be very interested in seeing the Tabula Rasa  videos. I
presented a paper last year (last May if I remember correctly)on the
Historiographical and social significance of participating in MMORPGs where
I predicted the demise of Tabula Rasa. I did so on the grounds that combat
and conflict within the game did not portray war as true extension of mans'
asocial sociability. It is one of the very rare occasions when I have got
things right for a change. The paper is currently off being edited by a
colleague - would the SIG be interested in a copy?
Steve Webley
> Send game_preservation mailing list submissions to
> 	game_preservation at igda.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	game_preservation-request at igda.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	game_preservation-owner at igda.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than &quot;Re: Contents of game_preservation digest...&quot;
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: A Life Well Wasted (Henry Lowood)
>    2. Re: A Life Well Wasted (Andrew Armstrong)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 09:31:56 -0700
> From: Henry Lowood &lt;lowood at stanford.edu&gt;
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
> To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG &lt;game_preservation at igda.org&gt;
> Message-ID: &lt;49B695FC.4000704 at stanford.edu&gt;
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=&quot;iso-8859-1&quot;;
Format=&quot;flowed&quot;
>
> Andrew,
>
> A propos Tabula Rasa, we are in touch with the guys who documented the
> last moments and have permission to add their video to the collection.
> So yes, we got it.
>
> Henry
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> &gt; I'd like to agree with Henry here on all counts. Videos are not
> &gt; equivalent (nothing is except for a time machine), but I think
> &gt; historians will prefer that to any re-enactments - as stated, while
> &gt; Civil War guys might march around with full kit, but historians would
> &gt; kill to have a video of the lives of those soldiers (or anyone else
at
> &gt; that time in history!).
> &gt;
> &gt; If we start saying it's &quot;Not good enough&quot; in any way we
just need to
> &gt; go back 100 years and see how little was filmed, and think how much
we
> &gt; miss in history because of it (and how much actual film, audio and
> &gt; other culture has been lost permanently). It's easy to wave a hand if
> &gt; it's all you know, but certainly I'd welcome much much more to the
> &gt; IA's collections. I hope Henry got some good stuff of Tabular Rasa
> &gt; closing for instance! Once in a games lifetime experience that, not
> &gt; something that can ever be remade.
> &gt;
> &gt; On singleplayer: Let's Play's are awesome ;) Need to check and see if
> &gt; any are being made of MMO's, there are a odd few around - gets the
> &gt; experience with commentary, which is ace :) - footage is good,
footage
> &gt; with commentary (optional is best) is even better, which I intend to
> &gt; try at some point.
> &gt;
> &gt; Reminded me to listen to these - I've added them to my MP3 player
now,
> &gt; I don't know why I forgot before.
> &gt;
> &gt; Andrew
> &gt;
> &gt; Henry Lowood wrote:
> &gt;&gt; Hi Stuart,
> &gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt; Well, I guess we disagree a little on the value of gameplay
> &gt;&gt; documentation (which is not just video).   My point was that
> &gt;&gt; documenting a complex multi-player or massively multi-player
world is
> &gt;&gt; as much about documenting events that happen in those spaces as
it is
> &gt;&gt; about preserving software.  I don't think that's marginal at all.
> &gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt; If the focus is on &quot;experiences,&quot; then I agree with
you. That sort of
> &gt;&gt; preservation is closer to re-enactment than history, however. 
Ok,
> &gt;&gt; yes, it is possible that groups will get together to play
Everquest
> &gt;&gt; in 100 years, just like they camp out in Civil War replica
uniforms
> &gt;&gt; and fire muskets in line.  But that experience is NOT the
experience
> &gt;&gt; of what happens in virtual worlds today, i.e., it is not going to
be
> &gt;&gt; history.  It is still going to take place 100 years from now, no
> &gt;&gt; matter how you cut it.  For similar reasons, I disagree strongly
that
> &gt;&gt; playing with bots is going to be informative, at least in terms
of
> &gt;&gt; historical work.
> &gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt; In Preserving Virtual Worlds, our goal is to do both -- software
> &gt;&gt; preservation and &quot;event&quot; preservation (for want of a
better term).
> &gt;&gt; My emphasis on documentation of player behavior is more of a
> &gt;&gt; corrective to the idea that it's all about software preservation
than
> &gt;&gt; it is an attempt to say we should only do video capture and
gather
> &gt;&gt; documentation.  But if you put a gun to my head and say pick one
or
> &gt;&gt; the other, software or documentation, you can't have both, as a
> &gt;&gt; historian I would go for documentation.
> &gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt; Last, video capture of single-player games is absolutely useful;
I
> &gt;&gt; certainly agree with that statement.
> &gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt; Henry
> &gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt; Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; I just listened to both episodes. I thought they were very
well
> &gt;&gt;&gt; done, although I think they would both have been improved by
video
> &gt;&gt;&gt; -- especially the one on collectors. You can't begin to
understand
> &gt;&gt;&gt; collectors until you actually SEE some of their collections.
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Henry, you made a comment in the podcast that a single player
game
> &gt;&gt;&gt; can be booted up in 100 years and enjoyed, but a multi-player
game
> &gt;&gt;&gt; can't be, because it requires other people to play, and the
guy
> &gt;&gt;&gt; won't be able to find other people to play it with him.
Regardless
> &gt;&gt;&gt; if that is true or not, it's impossible to preserve the
actual
> &gt;&gt;&gt; experience of playing the game by taking video and
screenshots. The
> &gt;&gt;&gt; only way the guy in 100 years is going to be able to have the
> &gt;&gt;&gt; experience of playing the game is if he manages to get a
whole bunch
> &gt;&gt;&gt; of other people to play with him, or if we can design
suitably
> &gt;&gt;&gt; convincing bots to take the place of the other players.
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; I agree that gameplay videos have value, but the same applies
to
> &gt;&gt;&gt; gameplay videos of single player games. What is specifically
added
> &gt;&gt;&gt; to the mix by preserving gameplay videos from multi-player
games? It
> &gt;&gt;&gt; sounded from the podcast as if this was some kind of solution
to the
> &gt;&gt;&gt; problem of preserving multi-player games in general. I think
it's
> &gt;&gt;&gt; useful, but it only adds marginally to the preservation of
the game
> &gt;&gt;&gt; experience.
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Stuart
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org
> &gt;&gt;&gt; [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of
*Henry Lowood
> &gt;&gt;&gt; *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:11 PM
> &gt;&gt;&gt; *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG
> &gt;&gt;&gt; *Subject:* [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Some of you may be interested in the far-flung corners of the
world
> &gt;&gt;&gt; that the Preserving Virtual Worlds project has reached. 
Others I
> &gt;&gt;&gt; know are intensely interested in the world of game
collectors.  In
> &gt;&gt;&gt; either case, check out Robert Ashley's new podcast, A Life
Well Wasted:
> &gt;&gt;&gt; http://alifewellwasted.com/feed/atom/
> &gt;&gt;&gt; The second episode covers the world of game collectors, which
I have
> &gt;&gt;&gt; to say is not so different in some ways from book collectors
(said
> &gt;&gt;&gt; from a library perspective). The last quarter or so is about
our
> &gt;&gt;&gt; project. Robert Ashley, the man behind ALWW, has said on
forums he
> &gt;&gt;&gt; might release the interview with me in its entirety.  He is a
bright
> &gt;&gt;&gt; guy and a great interviewer -- makes you wonder about all the
talent
> &gt;&gt;&gt; shaking loose from 1Up.
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Oh, the first podcast is also interesting, covering the
history and
> &gt;&gt;&gt; demise of EGM.
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Henry
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; --
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Curator for History of Science &amp; Technology Collections;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;  Film &amp; Media Collections
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Stanford University Libraries
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Stanford CA 94305-6004
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu
&lt;mailto:lowood at stanford.edu&gt;;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
&lt;http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________
> &gt;&gt;&gt; game_preservation mailing list
> &gt;&gt;&gt; game_preservation at igda.org
> &gt;&gt;&gt; http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt; --
> &gt;&gt; Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> &gt;&gt; Curator for History of Science &amp; Technology Collections;
> &gt;&gt;  Film &amp; Media Collections
> &gt;&gt; HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> &gt;&gt; Stanford University Libraries
> &gt;&gt; Stanford CA 94305-6004
> &gt;&gt; 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu;
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
> &gt;&gt; &lt;http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood&gt;
> &gt;&gt;
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> &gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt; _______________________________________________
> &gt;&gt; game_preservation mailing list
> &gt;&gt; game_preservation at igda.org
> &gt;&gt; http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> &gt;&gt;
> &gt;
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> &gt;
> &gt; _______________________________________________
> &gt; game_preservation mailing list
> &gt; game_preservation at igda.org
> &gt; http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> &gt;
>
> --
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science &amp; Technology Collections;
>  Film &amp; Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
> &lt;http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood&gt;
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
&lt;http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090310/5f938976/attachment.htm&gt;
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:34:52 +0000
> From: Andrew Armstrong &lt;andrew at aarmstrong.org&gt;
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
> To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG &lt;game_preservation at igda.org&gt;
> Message-ID: &lt;49B696AC.5070101 at aarmstrong.org&gt;
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=&quot;iso-8859-1&quot;;
Format=&quot;flowed&quot;
>
> Cool! I heard &quot;good things&quot; from Idle Thumbs, after Chris Remo
stopped
> dicking around saying he was a new player ;)
>
> Thought it'd be interesting to see, if I wasn't busy that weekend I'd
> have gone in myself and got a bit of stuff.
>
> Andrew
>
> Henry Lowood wrote:
> &gt; Andrew,
> &gt;
> &gt; A propos Tabula Rasa, we are in touch with the guys who documented
the
> &gt; last moments and have permission to add their video to the
collection.
> &gt; So yes, we got it.
> &gt;
> &gt; Henry
> &gt;
> &gt; Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> &gt;&gt; I'd like to agree with Henry here on all counts. Videos are not
> &gt;&gt; equivalent (nothing is except for a time machine), but I think
> &gt;&gt; historians will prefer that to any re-enactments - as stated,
while
> &gt;&gt; Civil War guys might march around with full kit, but historians
would
> &gt;&gt; kill to have a video of the lives of those soldiers (or anyone
else
> &gt;&gt; at that time in history!).
> &gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt; If we start saying it's &quot;Not good enough&quot; in any way we
just need to
> &gt;&gt; go back 100 years and see how little was filmed, and think how
much
> &gt;&gt; we miss in history because of it (and how much actual film, audio
and
> &gt;&gt; other culture has been lost permanently). It's easy to wave a
hand if
> &gt;&gt; it's all you know, but certainly I'd welcome much much more to
the
> &gt;&gt; IA's collections. I hope Henry got some good stuff of Tabular
Rasa
> &gt;&gt; closing for instance! Once in a games lifetime experience that,
not
> &gt;&gt; something that can ever be remade.
> &gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt; On singleplayer: Let's Play's are awesome ;) Need to check and
see if
> &gt;&gt; any are being made of MMO's, there are a odd few around - gets
the
> &gt;&gt; experience with commentary, which is ace :) - footage is good,
> &gt;&gt; footage with commentary (optional is best) is even better, which
I
> &gt;&gt; intend to try at some point.
> &gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt; Reminded me to listen to these - I've added them to my MP3 player
> &gt;&gt; now, I don't know why I forgot before.
> &gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt; Andrew
> &gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt; Henry Lowood wrote:
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Stuart,
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Well, I guess we disagree a little on the value of gameplay
> &gt;&gt;&gt; documentation (which is not just video).   My point was that
> &gt;&gt;&gt; documenting a complex multi-player or massively multi-player
world
> &gt;&gt;&gt; is as much about documenting events that happen in those
spaces as
> &gt;&gt;&gt; it is about preserving software.  I don't think that's
marginal at all.
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; If the focus is on &quot;experiences,&quot; then I agree with
you. That sort
> &gt;&gt;&gt; of preservation is closer to re-enactment than history,
however.
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Ok, yes, it is possible that groups will get together to play
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Everquest in 100 years, just like they camp out in Civil War
replica
> &gt;&gt;&gt; uniforms and fire muskets in line.  But that experience is
NOT the
> &gt;&gt;&gt; experience of what happens in virtual worlds today, i.e., it
is not
> &gt;&gt;&gt; going to be history.  It is still going to take place 100
years from
> &gt;&gt;&gt; now, no matter how you cut it.  For similar reasons, I
disagree
> &gt;&gt;&gt; strongly that playing with bots is going to be informative,
at least
> &gt;&gt;&gt; in terms of historical work.
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; In Preserving Virtual Worlds, our goal is to do both --
software
> &gt;&gt;&gt; preservation and &quot;event&quot; preservation (for want of
a better term).
> &gt;&gt;&gt; My emphasis on documentation of player behavior is more of a
> &gt;&gt;&gt; corrective to the idea that it's all about software
preservation
> &gt;&gt;&gt; than it is an attempt to say we should only do video capture
and
> &gt;&gt;&gt; gather documentation.  But if you put a gun to my head and
say pick
> &gt;&gt;&gt; one or the other, software or documentation, you can't have
both, as
> &gt;&gt;&gt; a historian I would go for documentation.
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Last, video capture of single-player games is absolutely
useful; I
> &gt;&gt;&gt; certainly agree with that statement.
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Henry
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I just listened to both episodes. I thought they were
very well
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; done, although I think they would both have been improved
by video
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -- especially the one on collectors. You can't begin to
understand
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; collectors until you actually SEE some of their
collections.
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Henry, you made a comment in the podcast that a single
player game
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; can be booted up in 100 years and enjoyed, but a
multi-player game
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; can't be, because it requires other people to play, and
the guy
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; won't be able to find other people to play it with him.
Regardless
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; if that is true or not, it's impossible to preserve the
actual
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; experience of playing the game by taking video and
screenshots. The
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; only way the guy in 100 years is going to be able to have
the
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; experience of playing the game is if he manages to get a
whole
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; bunch of other people to play with him, or if we can
design
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; suitably convincing bots to take the place of the other
players.
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I agree that gameplay videos have value, but the same
applies to
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; gameplay videos of single player games. What is
specifically added
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to the mix by preserving gameplay videos from
multi-player games?
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; It sounded from the podcast as if this was some kind of
solution to
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the problem of preserving multi-player games in general.
I think
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; it's useful, but it only adds marginally to the
preservation of the
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; game experience.
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Stuart
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of
*Henry Lowood
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:11 PM
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *Subject:* [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Some of you may be interested in the far-flung corners of
the world
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that the Preserving Virtual Worlds project has reached. 
Others I
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; know are intensely interested in the world of game
collectors.  In
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; either case, check out Robert Ashley's new podcast, A
Life Well Wasted:
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; http://alifewellwasted.com/feed/atom/
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The second episode covers the world of game collectors,
which I
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; have to say is not so different in some ways from book
collectors
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (said from a library perspective). The last quarter or so
is about
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; our project. Robert Ashley, the man behind ALWW, has said
on forums
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; he might release the interview with me in its entirety. 
He is a
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; bright guy and a great interviewer -- makes you wonder
about all
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the talent shaking loose from 1Up.
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Oh, the first podcast is also interesting, covering the
history and
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; demise of EGM.
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Henry
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Curator for History of Science &amp; Technology
Collections;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;  Film &amp; Media Collections
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Stanford University Libraries
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Stanford CA 94305-6004
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu
&lt;mailto:lowood at stanford.edu&gt;;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
&lt;http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; game_preservation mailing list
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; game_preservation at igda.org
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; --
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Curator for History of Science &amp; Technology Collections;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;  Film &amp; Media Collections
> &gt;&gt;&gt; HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Stanford University Libraries
> &gt;&gt;&gt; Stanford CA 94305-6004
> &gt;&gt;&gt; 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu;
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
> &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________
> &gt;&gt;&gt; game_preservation mailing list
> &gt;&gt;&gt; game_preservation at igda.org
> &gt;&gt;&gt; http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt;
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> &gt;&gt;
> &gt;&gt; _______________________________________________
> &gt;&gt; game_preservation mailing list
> &gt;&gt; game_preservation at igda.org
> &gt;&gt; http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> &gt;&gt;
> &gt;
> &gt; --
> &gt; Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> &gt; Curator for History of Science &amp; Technology Collections;
> &gt;  Film &amp; Media Collections
> &gt; HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> &gt; Stanford University Libraries
> &gt; Stanford CA 94305-6004
> &gt; 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
> &gt; &lt;http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood&gt;
> &gt;
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> &gt;
> &gt; _______________________________________________
> &gt; game_preservation mailing list
> &gt; game_preservation at igda.org
> &gt; http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> &gt;
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
&lt;http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090310/4602e588/attachment.html&gt;
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> End of game_preservation Digest, Vol 38, Issue 11
> *************************************************
>
>
>
>
>

________________________________________________
Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.2


From sjwebley at nildram.co.uk  Thu Mar 12 08:47:29 2009
From: sjwebley at nildram.co.uk (Stephen Webley)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 12:47:29 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] game_preservation Digest, Vol 38, Issue 11
In-Reply-To: <mailman.29.1236787243.44550.game_preservation@igda.org>
References: <mailman.29.1236787243.44550.game_preservation@igda.org>
Message-ID: <49B90461.60307@nildram.co.uk>

game_preservation-request at igda.org wrote:
> Send game_preservation mailing list submissions to
> 	game_preservation at igda.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	game_preservation-request at igda.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	game_preservation-owner at igda.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of game_preservation digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: A Life Well Wasted (Henry Lowood)
>    2. Re: A Life Well Wasted (Andrew Armstrong)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 09:31:56 -0700
> From: Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu>
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
> To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG <game_preservation at igda.org>
> Message-ID: <49B695FC.4000704 at stanford.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Andrew,
>
> A propos Tabula Rasa, we are in touch with the guys who documented the 
> last moments and have permission to add their video to the collection. 
> So yes, we got it.
>
> Henry
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>   
>> I'd like to agree with Henry here on all counts. Videos are not 
>> equivalent (nothing is except for a time machine), but I think 
>> historians will prefer that to any re-enactments - as stated, while 
>> Civil War guys might march around with full kit, but historians would 
>> kill to have a video of the lives of those soldiers (or anyone else at 
>> that time in history!).
>>
>> If we start saying it's "Not good enough" in any way we just need to 
>> go back 100 years and see how little was filmed, and think how much we 
>> miss in history because of it (and how much actual film, audio and 
>> other culture has been lost permanently). It's easy to wave a hand if 
>> it's all you know, but certainly I'd welcome much much more to the 
>> IA's collections. I hope Henry got some good stuff of Tabular Rasa 
>> closing for instance! Once in a games lifetime experience that, not 
>> something that can ever be remade.
>>
>> On singleplayer: Let's Play's are awesome ;) Need to check and see if 
>> any are being made of MMO's, there are a odd few around - gets the 
>> experience with commentary, which is ace :) - footage is good, footage 
>> with commentary (optional is best) is even better, which I intend to 
>> try at some point.
>>
>> Reminded me to listen to these - I've added them to my MP3 player now, 
>> I don't know why I forgot before.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Henry Lowood wrote:
>>     
>>> Hi Stuart,
>>>
>>> Well, I guess we disagree a little on the value of gameplay 
>>> documentation (which is not just video).   My point was that 
>>> documenting a complex multi-player or massively multi-player world is 
>>> as much about documenting events that happen in those spaces as it is 
>>> about preserving software.  I don't think that's marginal at all.
>>>
>>> If the focus is on "experiences," then I agree with you. That sort of 
>>> preservation is closer to re-enactment than history, however.  Ok, 
>>> yes, it is possible that groups will get together to play Everquest 
>>> in 100 years, just like they camp out in Civil War replica uniforms 
>>> and fire muskets in line.  But that experience is NOT the experience 
>>> of what happens in virtual worlds today, i.e., it is not going to be 
>>> history.  It is still going to take place 100 years from now, no 
>>> matter how you cut it.  For similar reasons, I disagree strongly that 
>>> playing with bots is going to be informative, at least in terms of 
>>> historical work.
>>>
>>> In Preserving Virtual Worlds, our goal is to do both -- software 
>>> preservation and "event" preservation (for want of a better term).   
>>> My emphasis on documentation of player behavior is more of a 
>>> corrective to the idea that it's all about software preservation than 
>>> it is an attempt to say we should only do video capture and gather 
>>> documentation.  But if you put a gun to my head and say pick one or 
>>> the other, software or documentation, you can't have both, as a 
>>> historian I would go for documentation.
>>>
>>> Last, video capture of single-player games is absolutely useful; I 
>>> certainly agree with that statement. 
>>>
>>> Henry
>>>
>>> Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
>>>       
>>>> I just listened to both episodes. I thought they were very well 
>>>> done, although I think they would both have been improved by video 
>>>> -- especially the one on collectors. You can't begin to understand 
>>>> collectors until you actually SEE some of their collections.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Henry, you made a comment in the podcast that a single player game 
>>>> can be booted up in 100 years and enjoyed, but a multi-player game 
>>>> can't be, because it requires other people to play, and the guy 
>>>> won't be able to find other people to play it with him. Regardless 
>>>> if that is true or not, it's impossible to preserve the actual 
>>>> experience of playing the game by taking video and screenshots. The 
>>>> only way the guy in 100 years is going to be able to have the 
>>>> experience of playing the game is if he manages to get a whole bunch 
>>>> of other people to play with him, or if we can design suitably 
>>>> convincing bots to take the place of the other players.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> I agree that gameplay videos have value, but the same applies to 
>>>> gameplay videos of single player games. What is specifically added 
>>>> to the mix by preserving gameplay videos from multi-player games? It 
>>>> sounded from the podcast as if this was some kind of solution to the 
>>>> problem of preserving multi-player games in general. I think it's 
>>>> useful, but it only adds marginally to the preservation of the game 
>>>> experience.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Stuart
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org 
>>>> [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Henry Lowood
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:11 PM
>>>> *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG
>>>> *Subject:* [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Some of you may be interested in the far-flung corners of the world 
>>>> that the Preserving Virtual Worlds project has reached.  Others I 
>>>> know are intensely interested in the world of game collectors.  In 
>>>> either case, check out Robert Ashley's new podcast, A Life Well Wasted:
>>>> http://alifewellwasted.com/feed/atom/
>>>> The second episode covers the world of game collectors, which I have 
>>>> to say is not so different in some ways from book collectors (said 
>>>> from a library perspective). The last quarter or so is about our 
>>>> project. Robert Ashley, the man behind ALWW, has said on forums he 
>>>> might release the interview with me in its entirety.  He is a bright 
>>>> guy and a great interviewer -- makes you wonder about all the talent 
>>>> shaking loose from 1Up.
>>>> Oh, the first podcast is also interesting, covering the history and 
>>>> demise of EGM.
>>>> Henry
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>>
>>>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>>>
>>>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>>>
>>>>  Film & Media Collections
>>>>
>>>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>>>
>>>> Stanford University Libraries
>>>>
>>>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>>>
>>>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 
>>>> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>>   
>>>>         
>>> -- 
>>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>>  Film & Media Collections
>>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>> Stanford University Libraries
>>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
>>> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>   
>>>       
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
>>     
> Hi Guys, I would be very interested in seeing the Tabula Rasa  videos. I  presented a paper last year (last May if I remember correctly)on the
> Historiographical and social significance of participating in MMORPGs   where I predicted the demise of Tabula Rasa. I did so on the grounds that combat and conflict within the game did not portray war as true extension of mans' asocial sociability. It is one of the very rare occasions when I have got things right for a change. The paper is currently off being edited by a colleague - would the SIG be interested in a copy?
> Steve Webley


From info at fadresearch.com  Fri Mar 13 12:01:35 2009
From: info at fadresearch.com (Info)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 12:01:35 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] Weirdest games ever link
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090313115507.06a2f640@pop.primus.ca>


This came to me today, enjoy:

http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/12/14-weirdest-video-games-in-history/

Best To All - Sam 


From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Fri Mar 13 15:17:36 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 19:17:36 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] Weirdest games ever link
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090313115507.06a2f640@pop.primus.ca>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090313115507.06a2f640@pop.primus.ca>
Message-ID: <49BAB150.80807@aarmstrong.org>

Haha, neat find. Yeah, pretty weird, but doesn't go back far enough in 
time - some of the older videogames just simply don't make any sense 
whatsoever and are very, very odd, but so simple it is perhaps "less 
weird" whatever that means :)

Andrew

Info wrote:
>
> This came to me today, enjoy:
>
> http://www.neatorama.com/2009/03/12/14-weirdest-video-games-in-history/
>
> Best To All - Sam
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

From mr.edavis at gmail.com  Tue Mar 17 18:48:18 2009
From: mr.edavis at gmail.com (Elliott Davis)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 15:48:18 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] canceled Fallout: game design doc
Message-ID: <fa8872d80903171548s3253d82ala77fe629501be225@mail.gmail.com>

Hello.  I don't know if anyone has come across this yet, but a design
document for a canceled Fallout game, Brotherhood of Steel 2, was posted
online.  I thought this group would be interested in taking a look.

This link <http://gameoftheart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4914>is to a short
forum post which contains the link to the document.

See you at GDC!

best,
Elliott Davis
Programmer
THQ - Incinerator Studios
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090317/4e894aac/attachment.htm>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Tue Mar 17 18:57:27 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:57:27 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] canceled Fallout: game design doc
In-Reply-To: <fa8872d80903171548s3253d82ala77fe629501be225@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fa8872d80903171548s3253d82ala77fe629501be225@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49C02AD7.9060709@aarmstrong.org>

I glanced at this at some point but never got around to checking it out. 
Nice find Elliott :)

Andrew

Elliott Davis wrote:
> Hello.  I don't know if anyone has come across this yet, but a design 
> document for a canceled Fallout game, Brotherhood of Steel 2, was 
> posted online.  I thought this group would be interested in taking a look.
>
> This link <http://gameoftheart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4914>is to a 
> short forum post which contains the link to the document.
>
> See you at GDC!
>
> best,
> Elliott Davis
> Programmer
> THQ - Incinerator Studios
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090317/58454405/attachment.html>

From Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk  Tue Mar 17 04:42:32 2009
From: Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk (Dan Pinchbeck)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 08:42:32 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] DiGRA Games Preservation panel draft
Message-ID: <49BF6278020000B500085E28@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>

Dear all,

Firstly, many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this. I'm attaching a draft version of the panel proposal for the 2009 DiGRA conference. At the moment, I've left everyone's names on for reference, these will be removed before submission.

Can you please read through and get back to me with any feedback, corrections or suggestions so I can implement them before submission. 

The submission deadline is 17th April, but if we can get it off before then, it would clear a space on my desk!

In the case of the IGDA paper, should the panel be accepted, there would be a need to edit the white paper to fit the proper format and focus it towards an academic publication. I'm happy to help out with this of course. We'd also need to decide who from the SIG would present this paper at DiGRA (as there is a cost attached in terms of conference attendence which an institution would normally cover). I'm assuming at this point I'd chair the session - if that's not acceptable, please speak up now, throw your own hat in the ring, offer bribes and blackmail and so on. I'm not proud  :)

Thanks again, 

Dan

Dan Pinchbeck
Advanced Games Research Group
School of Creative Technologies
University of Portsmouth, UK

www.thechineseroom.co.uk
www.keep.port.ac.uk
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: DiGRApanelpropsal.doc
Type: application/msword
Size: 103936 bytes
Desc: Word for Windows 97
Url : <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090317/9126458c/attachment.doc>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Tue Mar 17 19:17:43 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:17:43 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] DiGRA Games Preservation panel draft
In-Reply-To: <49BF6278020000B500085E28@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
References: <49BF6278020000B500085E28@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <49C02F97.80705@aarmstrong.org>

We've finalised the white paper, I'm just waiting on word from Henry 
it's being printed (just in case he finds last minute errors) so I can 
put it online. We can edit this for the event sure.

Just on the first comment - hyperbolic? nah - it is pretty massive - it 
doesn't really matter if the physical tapes and cartridges are stored 
away (although this is important), give it a few years and we'll 
basically be clawing at anything with 1's and 0's on from the early days 
to just get it copied onto newer media. Certainly in my lifetime I know 
that much :)

In any case, the proposal looks good from my read of it. Of course you 
should chair it, it's all your work.

I need to know roughly - do you know how much it will cost? (I don't 
have an institution to pay for this - the IGDA certainly can't, but I 
can save up some money if given an estimate). Also, if I am (and only if 
I am) the only paper writer who is able to attend DiGRA, I'll present 
that one, but I'm neither currently an academic or practised speaker, so 
eek! (Someone else from the paper please come, hehe :) ).

Andrew

Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Firstly, many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this. I'm attaching a draft version of the panel proposal for the 2009 DiGRA conference. At the moment, I've left everyone's names on for reference, these will be removed before submission.
>
> Can you please read through and get back to me with any feedback, corrections or suggestions so I can implement them before submission. 
>
> The submission deadline is 17th April, but if we can get it off before then, it would clear a space on my desk!
>
> In the case of the IGDA paper, should the panel be accepted, there would be a need to edit the white paper to fit the proper format and focus it towards an academic publication. I'm happy to help out with this of course. We'd also need to decide who from the SIG would present this paper at DiGRA (as there is a cost attached in terms of conference attendence which an institution would normally cover). I'm assuming at this point I'd chair the session - if that's not acceptable, please speak up now, throw your own hat in the ring, offer bribes and blackmail and so on. I'm not proud  :)
>
> Thanks again, 
>
> Dan
>
> Dan Pinchbeck
> Advanced Games Research Group
> School of Creative Technologies
> University of Portsmouth, UK
>
> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
> www.keep.port.ac.uk
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090317/2d4fbfb2/attachment.htm>

From evilcowclone at gmail.com  Tue Mar 17 22:31:48 2009
From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 19:31:48 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] DiGRA Games Preservation panel draft
In-Reply-To: <49C02F97.80705@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49BF6278020000B500085E28@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
	<49C02F97.80705@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <b96706b70903171931w39506fa3ve78171b0b0a1447b@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, looks like a great panel! I've been interested in going to DiGRA, but
my employer doesn't exactly pay me to attend conferences. They don't know
what they got and the State sure won't let them open their eyes...

I sure hope you're going to be giving coverage of more than just
preservation projects in Europe. Libraries and archives of videogames have a
poor tendency of not communicating with each other.

-Devin

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

>  We've finalised the white paper, I'm just waiting on word from Henry it's
> being printed (just in case he finds last minute errors) so I can put it
> online. We can edit this for the event sure.
>
> Just on the first comment - hyperbolic? nah - it is pretty massive - it
> doesn't really matter if the physical tapes and cartridges are stored away
> (although this is important), give it a few years and we'll basically be
> clawing at anything with 1's and 0's on from the early days to just get it
> copied onto newer media. Certainly in my lifetime I know that much :)
>
> In any case, the proposal looks good from my read of it. Of course you
> should chair it, it's all your work.
>
> I need to know roughly - do you know how much it will cost? (I don't have
> an institution to pay for this - the IGDA certainly can't, but I can save up
> some money if given an estimate). Also, if I am (and only if I am) the only
> paper writer who is able to attend DiGRA, I'll present that one, but I'm
> neither currently an academic or practised speaker, so eek! (Someone else
> from the paper please come, hehe :) ).
>
> Andrew
>
> Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> Firstly, many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this. I'm attaching a draft version of the panel proposal for the 2009 DiGRA conference. At the moment, I've left everyone's names on for reference, these will be removed before submission.
>
> Can you please read through and get back to me with any feedback, corrections or suggestions so I can implement them before submission.
>
> The submission deadline is 17th April, but if we can get it off before then, it would clear a space on my desk!
>
> In the case of the IGDA paper, should the panel be accepted, there would be a need to edit the white paper to fit the proper format and focus it towards an academic publication. I'm happy to help out with this of course. We'd also need to decide who from the SIG would present this paper at DiGRA (as there is a cost attached in terms of conference attendence which an institution would normally cover). I'm assuming at this point I'd chair the session - if that's not acceptable, please speak up now, throw your own hat in the ring, offer bribes and blackmail and so on. I'm not proud  :)
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Dan
>
> Dan Pinchbeck
> Advanced Games Research Group
> School of Creative Technologies
> University of Portsmouth, UK
> www.thechineseroom.co.ukwww.keep.port.ac.uk
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>


-- 
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

"Until next time..."
Captain Commando
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090317/93176b90/attachment.html>

From Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk  Wed Mar 18 03:48:24 2009
From: Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk (Dan Pinchbeck)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 07:48:24 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] DiGRA Games Preservation panel draft
Message-ID: <49C0A748020000B5000860CE@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>

hi Devin

Yeah, hopefully - it's difficult because we have to focus quite tightly for these to fly as academic papers. If it gets accepted though, I think we should talk to the organisers about adding some posters to that session with more info on projects, or even put together a handout containing details of as many pres. projects as we can for participants to take away...

There aren't any registration fees up yet, but for reference, the 2007 conference clocked in at 217pounds / 233euros / 304USdollars for IGDA members, so it'll probably be somewhere around that figure


Cheers

Dan


Dan Pinchbeck
Advanced Games Research Group
School of Creative Technologies
University of Portsmouth, UK

www.thechineseroom.co.uk
www.keep.port.ac.uk
>>> Devin Monnens <evilcowclone at gmail.com> 18/03/09 2:33 AM >>>
Wow, looks like a great panel! I've been interested in going to DiGRA, but
my employer doesn't exactly pay me to attend conferences. They don't know
what they got and the State sure won't let them open their eyes...

I sure hope you're going to be giving coverage of more than just
preservation projects in Europe. Libraries and archives of videogames have a
poor tendency of not communicating with each other.

-Devin

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

>  We've finalised the white paper, I'm just waiting on word from Henry it's
> being printed (just in case he finds last minute errors) so I can put it
> online. We can edit this for the event sure.
>
> Just on the first comment - hyperbolic? nah - it is pretty massive - it
> doesn't really matter if the physical tapes and cartridges are stored away
> (although this is important), give it a few years and we'll basically be
> clawing at anything with 1's and 0's on from the early days to just get it
> copied onto newer media. Certainly in my lifetime I know that much :)
>
> In any case, the proposal looks good from my read of it. Of course you
> should chair it, it's all your work.
>
> I need to know roughly - do you know how much it will cost? (I don't have
> an institution to pay for this - the IGDA certainly can't, but I can save up
> some money if given an estimate). Also, if I am (and only if I am) the only
> paper writer who is able to attend DiGRA, I'll present that one, but I'm
> neither currently an academic or practised speaker, so eek! (Someone else
> from the paper please come, hehe :) ).
>
> Andrew
>
> Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> Firstly, many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this. I'm attaching a draft version of the panel proposal for the 2009 DiGRA conference. At the moment, I've left everyone's names on for reference, these will be removed before submission.
>
> Can you please read through and get back to me with any feedback, corrections or suggestions so I can implement them before submission.
>
> The submission deadline is 17th April, but if we can get it off before then, it would clear a space on my desk!
>
> In the case of the IGDA paper, should the panel be accepted, there would be a need to edit the white paper to fit the proper format and focus it towards an academic publication. I'm happy to help out with this of course. We'd also need to decide who from the SIG would present this paper at DiGRA (as there is a cost attached in terms of conference attendence which an institution would normally cover). I'm assuming at this point I'd chair the session - if that's not acceptable, please speak up now, throw your own hat in the ring, offer bribes and blackmail and so on. I'm not proud  :)
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Dan
>
> Dan Pinchbeck
> Advanced Games Research Group
> School of Creative Technologies
> University of Portsmouth, UK
> www.thechineseroom.co.ukwww.keep.port.ac.uk
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>


-- 
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

"Until next time..."
Captain Commando


From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Wed Mar 18 05:34:12 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 09:34:12 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] DiGRA Games Preservation panel draft
In-Reply-To: <49C0A748020000B5000860CE@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
References: <49C0A748020000B5000860CE@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <49C0C014.8090302@aarmstrong.org>

Sounds very affordable (eek, just look at the on the door prices for 
GDC!), thanks for the information! Looks like it'll be interesting, I 
want to learn about all the non-white paper parts of the panel - glad 
you got James Newman in on it too, he's a great speaker and has another 
great European project :)

Yeah, worldwide we can look at posters. I'll be working on more 
information about museums and archives, and then investigating projects 
in more detail then our current "One line in a wiki" style of 
information, which is sorely lacking.

Andrew

Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
> hi Devin
>
> Yeah, hopefully - it's difficult because we have to focus quite tightly for these to fly as academic papers. If it gets accepted though, I think we should talk to the organisers about adding some posters to that session with more info on projects, or even put together a handout containing details of as many pres. projects as we can for participants to take away...
>
> There aren't any registration fees up yet, but for reference, the 2007 conference clocked in at 217pounds / 233euros / 304USdollars for IGDA members, so it'll probably be somewhere around that figure
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Dan
>
>
> Dan Pinchbeck
> Advanced Games Research Group
> School of Creative Technologies
> University of Portsmouth, UK
>
> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
> www.keep.port.ac.uk
>   
>>>> Devin Monnens <evilcowclone at gmail.com> 18/03/09 2:33 AM >>>
>>>>         
> Wow, looks like a great panel! I've been interested in going to DiGRA, but
> my employer doesn't exactly pay me to attend conferences. They don't know
> what they got and the State sure won't let them open their eyes...
>
> I sure hope you're going to be giving coverage of more than just
> preservation projects in Europe. Libraries and archives of videogames have a
> poor tendency of not communicating with each other.
>
> -Devin
>
> On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:
>
>   
>>  We've finalised the white paper, I'm just waiting on word from Henry it's
>> being printed (just in case he finds last minute errors) so I can put it
>> online. We can edit this for the event sure.
>>
>> Just on the first comment - hyperbolic? nah - it is pretty massive - it
>> doesn't really matter if the physical tapes and cartridges are stored away
>> (although this is important), give it a few years and we'll basically be
>> clawing at anything with 1's and 0's on from the early days to just get it
>> copied onto newer media. Certainly in my lifetime I know that much :)
>>
>> In any case, the proposal looks good from my read of it. Of course you
>> should chair it, it's all your work.
>>
>> I need to know roughly - do you know how much it will cost? (I don't have
>> an institution to pay for this - the IGDA certainly can't, but I can save up
>> some money if given an estimate). Also, if I am (and only if I am) the only
>> paper writer who is able to attend DiGRA, I'll present that one, but I'm
>> neither currently an academic or practised speaker, so eek! (Someone else
>> from the paper please come, hehe :) ).
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Dan Pinchbeck wrote:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Firstly, many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this. I'm attaching a draft version of the panel proposal for the 2009 DiGRA conference. At the moment, I've left everyone's names on for reference, these will be removed before submission.
>>
>> Can you please read through and get back to me with any feedback, corrections or suggestions so I can implement them before submission.
>>
>> The submission deadline is 17th April, but if we can get it off before then, it would clear a space on my desk!
>>
>> In the case of the IGDA paper, should the panel be accepted, there would be a need to edit the white paper to fit the proper format and focus it towards an academic publication. I'm happy to help out with this of course. We'd also need to decide who from the SIG would present this paper at DiGRA (as there is a cost attached in terms of conference attendence which an institution would normally cover). I'm assuming at this point I'd chair the session - if that's not acceptable, please speak up now, throw your own hat in the ring, offer bribes and blackmail and so on. I'm not proud  :)
>>
>> Thanks again,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> Dan Pinchbeck
>> Advanced Games Research Group
>> School of Creative Technologies
>> University of Portsmouth, UK
>> www.thechineseroom.co.ukwww.keep.port.ac.uk
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>
>>     
>
>
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090318/6b34ed53/attachment.html>

From lange at digitalgamearchive.org  Fri Mar 20 05:44:35 2009
From: lange at digitalgamearchive.org (Andreas Lange)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 10:44:35 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] DiGRA Games Preservation panel draft
In-Reply-To: <49BF6278020000B500085E28@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
References: <49BF6278020000B500085E28@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <49C36583.1070603@digitalgamearchive.org>

Dear Dan,
also from my side your proposal looks very well. I am available and 
looking forward to participate. After being interviewed from Joanna I am 
also very curious about her contribution :)

Best, Andreas



Dan Pinchbeck schrieb:
> Dear all,
> 
> Firstly, many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this. I'm attaching a draft version of the panel proposal for the 2009 DiGRA conference. At the moment, I've left everyone's names on for reference, these will be removed before submission.
> 
> Can you please read through and get back to me with any feedback, corrections or suggestions so I can implement them before submission. 
> 
> The submission deadline is 17th April, but if we can get it off before then, it would clear a space on my desk!
> 
> In the case of the IGDA paper, should the panel be accepted, there would be a need to edit the white paper to fit the proper format and focus it towards an academic publication. I'm happy to help out with this of course. We'd also need to decide who from the SIG would present this paper at DiGRA (as there is a cost attached in terms of conference attendence which an institution would normally cover). I'm assuming at this point I'd chair the session - if that's not acceptable, please speak up now, throw your own hat in the ring, offer bribes and blackmail and so on. I'm not proud  :)
> 
> Thanks again, 
> 
> Dan
> 
> Dan Pinchbeck
> Advanced Games Research Group
> School of Creative Technologies
> University of Portsmouth, UK
> 
> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
> www.keep.port.ac.uk
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation


From Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk  Fri Mar 20 06:03:06 2009
From: Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk (Dan Pinchbeck)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 10:03:06 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] DiGRA Games Preservation panel draft
Message-ID: <49C369DA020000B5000867F9@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>

Thanks Andreas - yes, I'm also interested in reading Jo's full paper. 

I'd thought perhaps you could present the KEEP paper - what do you think? Also, it would be good to talk before Malmo as you're on the panel: there's an approach to the question of developers embedding metadata I'd like to go through, that if we have the opportunity to get into the discussion would be good.

We had talked at this end about a potential visit to Germany to see you and Tobias perhaps in April. I don't know exactly how that'll pan out, but I'd personally love to come over and see your set-up - let me know if you think this will be possible.

Finally, we're going to need to start assembling the digital objects for transfer and early testing soon and I think this will primarily come from you, as I don't know what kind of archives of games the DNB, KB and BnF have. I'm still working on establishing a server here to grab the entire Home of the Underdogs archive, which will work well for everyone (it means a very secure back-up solution for HoTU, and it means we get our hands directly on a large number of obsolete games), but if we can start to assemble a list of what between us all we have, it will help us with the metadata and transfer tools early work. I'll put out a short email to all the partners on this now, but I'm not anticipating a great deal of material. We'll see!

Thanks and all best wishes,

Dan

Dr Dan Pinchbeck
Advanced Games Research Group
School of Creative Technologies
University of Portsmouth, UK

www.thechineseroom.co.uk
www.keep.port.ac.uk
>>> Andreas Lange <lange at digitalgamearchive.org> 20/03/09 9:45 AM >>>
Dear Dan,
also from my side your proposal looks very well. I am available and 
looking forward to participate. After being interviewed from Joanna I am 
also very curious about her contribution :)

Best, Andreas



Dan Pinchbeck schrieb:
> Dear all,
> 
> Firstly, many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this. I'm attaching a draft version of the panel proposal for the 2009 DiGRA conference. At the moment, I've left everyone's names on for reference, these will be removed before submission.
> 
> Can you please read through and get back to me with any feedback, corrections or suggestions so I can implement them before submission. 
> 
> The submission deadline is 17th April, but if we can get it off before then, it would clear a space on my desk!
> 
> In the case of the IGDA paper, should the panel be accepted, there would be a need to edit the white paper to fit the proper format and focus it towards an academic publication. I'm happy to help out with this of course. We'd also need to decide who from the SIG would present this paper at DiGRA (as there is a cost attached in terms of conference attendence which an institution would normally cover). I'm assuming at this point I'd chair the session - if that's not acceptable, please speak up now, throw your own hat in the ring, offer bribes and blackmail and so on. I'm not proud  :)
> 
> Thanks again, 
> 
> Dan
> 
> Dan Pinchbeck
> Advanced Games Research Group
> School of Creative Technologies
> University of Portsmouth, UK
> 
> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
> www.keep.port.ac.uk
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

_______________________________________________
game_preservation mailing list
game_preservation at igda.org
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation


From Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk  Fri Mar 20 06:11:56 2009
From: Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk (Dan Pinchbeck)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 10:11:56 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] DiGRA Games Preservation panel draft
Message-ID: <49C36BEC020000B50008680D@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>

Apologies to everyone - that should have gone back-channel.

Too many late nights on Fallout 3, I'm afraid. Only seeing things in greys and browns now...

Cheers

dan


Dr Dan Pinchbeck
Advanced Games Research Group
School of Creative Technologies
University of Portsmouth, UK

www.thechineseroom.co.uk
www.keep.port.ac.uk
>>> "Dan Pinchbeck" <Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk> 20/03/09 10:04 AM >>>
Thanks Andreas - yes, I'm also interested in reading Jo's full paper. 

I'd thought perhaps you could present the KEEP paper - what do you think? Also, it would be good to talk before Malmo as you're on the panel: there's an approach to the question of developers embedding metadata I'd like to go through, that if we have the opportunity to get into the discussion would be good.

We had talked at this end about a potential visit to Germany to see you and Tobias perhaps in April. I don't know exactly how that'll pan out, but I'd personally love to come over and see your set-up - let me know if you think this will be possible.

Finally, we're going to need to start assembling the digital objects for transfer and early testing soon and I think this will primarily come from you, as I don't know what kind of archives of games the DNB, KB and BnF have. I'm still working on establishing a server here to grab the entire Home of the Underdogs archive, which will work well for everyone (it means a very secure back-up solution for HoTU, and it means we get our hands directly on a large number of obsolete games), but if we can start to assemble a list of what between us all we have, it will help us with the metadata and transfer tools early work. I'll put out a short email to all the partners on this now, but I'm not anticipating a great deal of material. We'll see!

Thanks and all best wishes,

Dan

Dr Dan Pinchbeck
Advanced Games Research Group
School of Creative Technologies
University of Portsmouth, UK

www.thechineseroom.co.uk
www.keep.port.ac.uk
>>> Andreas Lange <lange at digitalgamearchive.org> 20/03/09 9:45 AM >>>
Dear Dan,
also from my side your proposal looks very well. I am available and 
looking forward to participate. After being interviewed from Joanna I am 
also very curious about her contribution :)

Best, Andreas



Dan Pinchbeck schrieb:
> Dear all,
> 
> Firstly, many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this. I'm attaching a draft version of the panel proposal for the 2009 DiGRA conference. At the moment, I've left everyone's names on for reference, these will be removed before submission.
> 
> Can you please read through and get back to me with any feedback, corrections or suggestions so I can implement them before submission. 
> 
> The submission deadline is 17th April, but if we can get it off before then, it would clear a space on my desk!
> 
> In the case of the IGDA paper, should the panel be accepted, there would be a need to edit the white paper to fit the proper format and focus it towards an academic publication. I'm happy to help out with this of course. We'd also need to decide who from the SIG would present this paper at DiGRA (as there is a cost attached in terms of conference attendence which an institution would normally cover). I'm assuming at this point I'd chair the session - if that's not acceptable, please speak up now, throw your own hat in the ring, offer bribes and blackmail and so on. I'm not proud  :)
> 
> Thanks again, 
> 
> Dan
> 
> Dan Pinchbeck
> Advanced Games Research Group
> School of Creative Technologies
> University of Portsmouth, UK
> 
> www.thechineseroom.co.uk
> www.keep.port.ac.uk
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

_______________________________________________
game_preservation mailing list
game_preservation at igda.org
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

_______________________________________________
game_preservation mailing list
game_preservation at igda.org
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation


From lowood at stanford.edu  Sat Mar 21 20:40:22 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 17:40:22 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] flyer for GDC
Message-ID: <49C588F6.7080606@stanford.edu>

Everyone,

Attached is the flyer I put together for GDC.   We should have a bunch 
to distribute from the IGDA booth. Feel free to pick some up and hand 
them around.

Henry

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090321/dc6466eb/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: gdc_flyer.pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 123902 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090321/dc6466eb/attachment.pdf>

From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com  Sun Mar 22 20:39:36 2009
From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 20:39:36 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] flyer for GDC
In-Reply-To: <49C588F6.7080606@stanford.edu>
References: <49C588F6.7080606@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <49c6da4a.151e640a.5d72.ffffe008@mx.google.com>

Henry,

 

I think the link on the bottom is wrong.

 

Stuart

 

From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Henry Lowood
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:40 PM
To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG
Subject: [game_preservation] flyer for GDC

 

Everyone,

Attached is the flyer I put together for GDC.   We should have a bunch to
distribute from the IGDA booth. Feel free to pick some up and hand them
around.

Henry



-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090322/1b1fee39/attachment.htm>

From evilcowclone at gmail.com  Sun Mar 22 22:50:12 2009
From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 20:50:12 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] flyer for GDC
In-Reply-To: <49C588F6.7080606@stanford.edu>
References: <49C588F6.7080606@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <b96706b70903221950h303e9a6by2840aea68f2c4277@mail.gmail.com>

I like it!

-D

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu> wrote:

>  Everyone,
>
> Attached is the flyer I put together for GDC.   We should have a bunch to
> distribute from the IGDA booth. Feel free to pick some up and hand them
> around.
>
> Henry
>
> --
> Henry Lowood
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>      Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library
> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USAhttp://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>


-- 
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

"Until next time..."
Captain Commando
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090322/9789262d/attachment.htm>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Mon Mar 23 00:07:09 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 21:07:09 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] flyer for GDC
In-Reply-To: <49c6da4a.151e640a.5d72.ffffe008@mx.google.com>
References: <49C588F6.7080606@stanford.edu>
	<49c6da4a.151e640a.5d72.ffffe008@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <49C70AED.5060700@aarmstrong.org>

Yeah, looks good apart from that error ;)

I've made a redirect for the right wiki page location.

We also should really point people just to 
http://www.igda.org/preservation since the new IGDA site will have some 
basic information there, but I like the layout of this flyer regardless.

Andrew

Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
>
> Henry,
>
>  
>
> I think the link on the bottom is wrong...
>
>  
>
> Stuart
>
>  
>
> *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org 
> [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Henry Lowood
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:40 PM
> *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG
> *Subject:* [game_preservation] flyer for GDC
>
>  
>
> Everyone,
>
> Attached is the flyer I put together for GDC.   We should have a bunch 
> to distribute from the IGDA booth. Feel free to pick some up and hand 
> them around.
>
> Henry
>
> -- 
> Henry Lowood
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>      Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library
> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
> lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 650-723-4602
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090322/4a1c753c/attachment.html>

From lowood at stanford.edu  Mon Mar 23 00:15:21 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 21:15:21 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] flyer for GDC
In-Reply-To: <49C70AED.5060700@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49C588F6.7080606@stanford.edu>	<49c6da4a.151e640a.5d72.ffffe008@mx.google.com>
	<49C70AED.5060700@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <49C70CD9.1020606@stanford.edu>

Which one?  to the SIG?  I think I just cut and pasted it to make sure 
that I didn't type it wrong.  To be honest, I never use the URL 
directly, just go to Google for it, so they'll find us regardless.

Ah, I see: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG, but Andrew, 
the redirect works!  So we are good to go. 

I have 500 copies.  I'll bring 250 to the IGDA desk tomorrow, then 
another 200 on Wednesday, saving 50 for the roundtable. 

Henry

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> Yeah, looks good apart from that error ;)
>
> I've made a redirect for the right wiki page location.
>
> We also should really point people just to 
> http://www.igda.org/preservation since the new IGDA site will have 
> some basic information there, but I like the layout of this flyer 
> regardless.
>
> Andrew
>
> Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
>>
>> Henry,
>>
>>  
>>
>> I think the link on the bottom is wrong...
>>
>>  
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>>  
>>
>> *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org 
>> [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Henry Lowood
>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:40 PM
>> *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG
>> *Subject:* [game_preservation] flyer for GDC
>>
>>  
>>
>> Everyone,
>>
>> Attached is the flyer I put together for GDC.   We should have a 
>> bunch to distribute from the IGDA booth. Feel free to pick some up 
>> and hand them around.
>>
>> Henry
>>
>> -- 
>> Henry Lowood
>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>      Film & Media Collections
>> HRG, Green Library
>> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
>> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
>> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>> lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 650-723-4602
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090322/1145f7c9/attachment-0001.html>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Mon Mar 23 00:17:57 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 21:17:57 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] flyer for GDC
In-Reply-To: <49C70CD9.1020606@stanford.edu>
References: <49C588F6.7080606@stanford.edu>	<49c6da4a.151e640a.5d72.ffffe008@mx.google.com>	<49C70AED.5060700@aarmstrong.org>
	<49C70CD9.1020606@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <49C70D75.9060207@aarmstrong.org>

Yeah, redirects are up - I realise most people would find us via. Google 
if we were higher up for some regularly used search terms :)

Awesome on bringing them down, you're doing a lot of legwork for this :) 
just a shame we won't have any of the white papers available, but I am 
going to put up the white paper online tonight and announce it properly.

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> Which one?  to the SIG?  I think I just cut and pasted it to make sure 
> that I didn't type it wrong.  To be honest, I never use the URL 
> directly, just go to Google for it, so they'll find us regardless.
>
> Ah, I see: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG, but Andrew, 
> the redirect works!  So we are good to go. 
>
> I have 500 copies.  I'll bring 250 to the IGDA desk tomorrow, then 
> another 200 on Wednesday, saving 50 for the roundtable. 
>
> Henry
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>> Yeah, looks good apart from that error ;)
>>
>> I've made a redirect for the right wiki page location.
>>
>> We also should really point people just to 
>> http://www.igda.org/preservation since the new IGDA site will have 
>> some basic information there, but I like the layout of this flyer 
>> regardless.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
>>>
>>> Henry,
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> I think the link on the bottom is wrong...
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Stuart
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org 
>>> [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Henry Lowood
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:40 PM
>>> *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG
>>> *Subject:* [game_preservation] flyer for GDC
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Everyone,
>>>
>>> Attached is the flyer I put together for GDC.   We should have a 
>>> bunch to distribute from the IGDA booth. Feel free to pick some up 
>>> and hand them around.
>>>
>>> Henry
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Henry Lowood
>>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>>      Film & Media Collections
>>> HRG, Green Library
>>> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
>>> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
>>> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>> lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 650-723-4602
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>   
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
>
> -- 
> Henry Lowood
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>      Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library
> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
> lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090322/146e3c72/attachment.htm>

From lowood at stanford.edu  Mon Mar 23 01:12:15 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 22:12:15 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] flyer for GDC
In-Reply-To: <49C70D75.9060207@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49C588F6.7080606@stanford.edu>	<49c6da4a.151e640a.5d72.ffffe008@mx.google.com>	<49C70AED.5060700@aarmstrong.org>	<49C70CD9.1020606@stanford.edu>
	<49C70D75.9060207@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <49C71A2F.1030007@stanford.edu>

Andrew,

If things break right, the White Paper may be available for ordering by 
Friday -- it all depends how fast it gets here and we can make the 
changes.  Right now, with the cover fixed, the content is all there, so 
someone could still order a copy if they don't mind the formatting of 
the TOC.  And since you have the content on-line as well, it's all good.

Henry

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> Yeah, redirects are up - I realise most people would find us via. 
> Google if we were higher up for some regularly used search terms :)
>
> Awesome on bringing them down, you're doing a lot of legwork for this 
> :) just a shame we won't have any of the white papers available, but I 
> am going to put up the white paper online tonight and announce it 
> properly.
>
> Andrew
>
> Henry Lowood wrote:
>> Which one?  to the SIG?  I think I just cut and pasted it to make 
>> sure that I didn't type it wrong.  To be honest, I never use the URL 
>> directly, just go to Google for it, so they'll find us regardless.
>>
>> Ah, I see: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG, but 
>> Andrew, the redirect works!  So we are good to go. 
>>
>> I have 500 copies.  I'll bring 250 to the IGDA desk tomorrow, then 
>> another 200 on Wednesday, saving 50 for the roundtable. 
>>
>> Henry
>>
>> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>> Yeah, looks good apart from that error ;)
>>>
>>> I've made a redirect for the right wiki page location.
>>>
>>> We also should really point people just to 
>>> http://www.igda.org/preservation since the new IGDA site will have 
>>> some basic information there, but I like the layout of this flyer 
>>> regardless.
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Henry,
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> I think the link on the bottom is wrong...
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Stuart
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org 
>>>> [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Henry Lowood
>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:40 PM
>>>> *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG
>>>> *Subject:* [game_preservation] flyer for GDC
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Everyone,
>>>>
>>>> Attached is the flyer I put together for GDC.   We should have a 
>>>> bunch to distribute from the IGDA booth. Feel free to pick some up 
>>>> and hand them around.
>>>>
>>>> Henry
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Henry Lowood
>>>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>>>      Film & Media Collections
>>>> HRG, Green Library
>>>> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
>>>> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
>>>> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>>> lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 650-723-4602
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>>   
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>   
>>
>> -- 
>> Henry Lowood
>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>      Film & Media Collections
>> HRG, Green Library
>> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
>> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
>> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
>> lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602
>>   
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090322/c2e8749c/attachment.htm>

From donahrm at gmail.com  Mon Mar 23 11:56:48 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 11:56:48 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] flyer for GDC
In-Reply-To: <49C588F6.7080606@stanford.edu>
References: <49C588F6.7080606@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <op.uq848yp4fmh8gn@sherpa.home>

Looks great! Thanks for the plug :)

On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 20:40:22 -0400, Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu>  
wrote:

> Everyone,
>
> Attached is the flyer I put together for GDC.   We should have a bunch
> to distribute from the IGDA booth. Feel free to pick some up and hand
> them around.
>
> Henry
>



-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Tue Mar 24 02:53:03 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 23:53:03 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Before It's Too Late: A Digital Game
	Preservation White Paper Released
Message-ID: <49C8834F.6080509@aarmstrong.org>

The 2008 white paper is now complete, titled Before It's Too Late: A 
Digital Game Preservation White Paper:

http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_Paper/Before_It%27s_Too_Late:_A_Digital_Game_Preservation_White_Paper

You can download it on that page, and find the link to Lulu for print 
copies. Make sure to spread this far and wide, feedback is welcome too, 
especially if we can improve anything for the next white paper.

As I said in the news post:

This is aimed at saying exactly why game history needs preserving, what 
needs preserving, and what you can do to help preserve game history! 
Spread this to anyone who is a developer or who is interested in 
videogame history.

Many thanks to Henry Lowood for leading the project and the contributors 
Andrew Armstrong, Devin Monnens, Zach Vowell, Judd Ruggill, Ken 
McAllister, Rachel Donahue, Jon-Paul Dyson, Stuart Feldhamer and Jo Barwick.

Look out for our next white paper looking at the best practices for game 
preservation coming in 2010!

Andrew

From Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk  Tue Mar 24 04:06:03 2009
From: Dan.Pinchbeck at port.ac.uk (Dan Pinchbeck)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 08:06:03 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] DiGRA panel submission
Message-ID: <49C8946B020000B500086DF6@stirling.iso.port.ac.uk>

Hi all,

Just to let you know that the panel proposal for DiGRA2009 has now been submitted - as soon as I hear anything I'll let you all know

Have a great time at GDC those of you that are there!

Best,

Dan

Dr Dan Pinchbeck
Advanced Games Research Group
School of Creative Technologies
University of Portsmouth, UK

www.thechineseroom.co.uk
www.keep.port.ac.uk

From evilcowclone at gmail.com  Tue Mar 24 13:05:59 2009
From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:05:59 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] Before It's Too Late: A Digital Game
	Preservation White Paper Released
In-Reply-To: <49C8834F.6080509@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49C8834F.6080509@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <b96706b70903241005s302f3d76v2a3e41379f019ec3@mail.gmail.com>

Andrew,

Do you have time to put a link to the White Paper somewhere at the top so
it's prominently displayed? The flyers direct people to the main page, but
it's not immediately clear where you should go.

-Devin

On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 12:53 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

> The 2008 white paper is now complete, titled Before It's Too Late: A
> Digital Game Preservation White Paper:
>
>
> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Preservation_SIG/White_Paper/Before_It%27s_Too_Late:_A_Digital_Game_Preservation_White_Paper
>
> You can download it on that page, and find the link to Lulu for print
> copies. Make sure to spread this far and wide, feedback is welcome too,
> especially if we can improve anything for the next white paper.
>
> As I said in the news post:
>
> This is aimed at saying exactly why game history needs preserving, what
> needs preserving, and what you can do to help preserve game history! Spread
> this to anyone who is a developer or who is interested in videogame history.
>
> Many thanks to Henry Lowood for leading the project and the contributors
> Andrew Armstrong, Devin Monnens, Zach Vowell, Judd Ruggill, Ken McAllister,
> Rachel Donahue, Jon-Paul Dyson, Stuart Feldhamer and Jo Barwick.
>
> Look out for our next white paper looking at the best practices for game
> preservation coming in 2010!
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>



-- 
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

"Until next time..."
Captain Commando
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090324/f32b9b7c/attachment.html>

From lange at digitalgamearchive.org  Thu Mar 26 12:29:36 2009
From: lange at digitalgamearchive.org (Andreas Lange)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:29:36 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Online DRM
Message-ID: <49CBAD70.7090400@digitalgamearchive.org>

Dear all,
one news about the GDC, which catched my attention says that online DRM 
systems e.g. for Games for Windows Live or Steam are one of the big 
topics in the industry. I wonder how much the industry is aware of what 
this would mean for the preservation. I expect, that it will not make 
things easier. This is an important issue, which should be raised, if 
not already done - I am looking forward to the report of "our" attendees 
at the GDC,
Andreas


From lowood at stanford.edu  Thu Mar 26 15:52:48 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:52:48 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Online DRM
In-Reply-To: <49CBAD70.7090400@digitalgamearchive.org>
References: <49CBAD70.7090400@digitalgamearchive.org>
Message-ID: <49CBDD10.6090103@stanford.edu>

Andreas,

You are right, this is a huge looming issue, and it is already causing 
problems.   What we actually discuss at the roundtable will depend on 
who is there, but I will put this topic in my pocket and pull it out if 
there is a good opportunity.  

Henry

Andreas Lange wrote:
> Dear all,
> one news about the GDC, which catched my attention says that online 
> DRM systems e.g. for Games for Windows Live or Steam are one of the 
> big topics in the industry. I wonder how much the industry is aware of 
> what this would mean for the preservation. I expect, that it will not 
> make things easier. This is an important issue, which should be 
> raised, if not already done - I am looking forward to the report of 
> "our" attendees at the GDC,
> Andreas
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090326/0bd46518/attachment.htm>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sun Mar 29 14:41:09 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 11:41:09 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] GDC Report Coming Soon + FileFront shutting down
Message-ID: <49CFC0C5.7030004@aarmstrong.org>

I've got some notes to write up from GDC for the SIG, as well as a 
report I'll write on the status of the "State of preservation". This 
will be done next week, I'm still not back home yet :)

Feel free, anyone who wasn't able to attend GDC or who has and wants to 
comment, to bring up items to talk about here - I'll try and summarise 
my notes, but questions on "Did you discuss XXX" or "Can I suggest 
project YYY" or "Can I help since I joined the SIG from seeing your 
leaflet" or even just "Hi I'm new" are all welcome.

The main thing I want to bring to people's attention just now is there 
is some behind the scenes effort by Simon Carless, Jason Scott and 
including a few others to try and somehow get the 48 Terabytes of files 
off FileFront - check this page for the sad news that it is closing 
tomorrow! http://farewell.filefront.com/

Hopefully someone will be able to get the files in some form so they can 
be uploaded to the Internet Archive. If anyone has a contact at 
FileFront it would be worth ringing them now and seeing perhaps if the 
files can be secured somehow (or ring up/contact Jason Scott to help his 
efforts).

Andrew

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sun Mar 29 14:48:30 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 11:48:30 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Online DRM
In-Reply-To: <49CBDD10.6090103@stanford.edu>
References: <49CBAD70.7090400@digitalgamearchive.org>
	<49CBDD10.6090103@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <49CFC27E.1040407@aarmstrong.org>

This wasn't brought up much in the roundtable checking my notes, but I 
think just everyone knew it was a problem - an actual example was 
horrible offline DRM in a few games (of the diskette and tape era) doing 
strange copy protection things - one was from an actual developer of 9 
copy protections on one of his games, where the cracked version only 
removed the 8 - the 9th just corrupted the game and didn't crash it, and 
so that version became the "standard" that was available to play, and is 
hardly therefore a good one to preserve!

Notes will be up next week which are more detailed on this bit, but 
little online DRM was raised in any case.

I think we do need to get some information up on the difficulties of DRM 
- in all it's forms - for preservation. A few good detailed articles 
would help when we need to point to authority on it. A major point is 
ownership, the right to copy (which copyright includes in many 
countries, or hasn't been tested in in many more) EULA's, and of course 
companies "promising" to remove the DRM if they go bust or stop the 
service, which we have several very good examples of this not happening.

The pay-to-play service model is worrying for me, I prefer ownership, so 
we will have to get someone then just me to look at it since I'm a 
little biased into the "I can play it without an internet connection 
thank you" realm.

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> Andreas,
>
> You are right, this is a huge looming issue, and it is already causing 
> problems.   What we actually discuss at the roundtable will depend on 
> who is there, but I will put this topic in my pocket and pull it out 
> if there is a good opportunity.  
>
> Henry
>
> Andreas Lange wrote:
>> Dear all,
>> one news about the GDC, which catched my attention says that online 
>> DRM systems e.g. for Games for Windows Live or Steam are one of the 
>> big topics in the industry. I wonder how much the industry is aware 
>> of what this would mean for the preservation. I expect, that it will 
>> not make things easier. This is an important issue, which should be 
>> raised, if not already done - I am looking forward to the report of 
>> "our" attendees at the GDC,
>> Andreas
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
> -- 
> Henry Lowood
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>      Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library
> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
> lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090329/8ff8f7f9/attachment.html>

From evilcowclone at gmail.com  Sun Mar 29 16:03:39 2009
From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 13:03:39 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] GDC Report Coming Soon + FileFront shutting
	down
In-Reply-To: <49CFC0C5.7030004@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49CFC0C5.7030004@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <b96706b70903291303i9b42918ie61eca9840e95b54@mail.gmail.com>

Andrew,

If IA wants to host the FileFront stuff, why not just e-mail or contact them
and let them know. I honestly don't know what IA would and would not take
for archival.

I'll try and write up some notes from the con as well, but I need to do
class prep for tomorrow as well, so it might be next weekend.

-D

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

> I've got some notes to write up from GDC for the SIG, as well as a report
> I'll write on the status of the "State of preservation". This will be done
> next week, I'm still not back home yet :)
>
> Feel free, anyone who wasn't able to attend GDC or who has and wants to
> comment, to bring up items to talk about here - I'll try and summarise my
> notes, but questions on "Did you discuss XXX" or "Can I suggest project YYY"
> or "Can I help since I joined the SIG from seeing your leaflet" or even just
> "Hi I'm new" are all welcome.
>
> The main thing I want to bring to people's attention just now is there is
> some behind the scenes effort by Simon Carless, Jason Scott and including a
> few others to try and somehow get the 48 Terabytes of files off FileFront -
> check this page for the sad news that it is closing tomorrow!
> http://farewell.filefront.com/
>
> Hopefully someone will be able to get the files in some form so they can be
> uploaded to the Internet Archive. If anyone has a contact at FileFront it
> would be worth ringing them now and seeing perhaps if the files can be
> secured somehow (or ring up/contact Jason Scott to help his efforts).
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>



-- 
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

"Until next time..."
Captain Commando
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090329/36348831/attachment.htm>

From evilcowclone at gmail.com  Sun Mar 29 16:09:13 2009
From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 13:09:13 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Online DRM
In-Reply-To: <49CFC27E.1040407@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49CBAD70.7090400@digitalgamearchive.org>
	<49CBDD10.6090103@stanford.edu> <49CFC27E.1040407@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <b96706b70903291309p2f4c842ex710d802b187c803c@mail.gmail.com>

Agreed on all points, Andrew. There needs to be something systematic on this
in terms of lawsuits that have been filed, etc. It's a gray area because
nobody knows anything. And that means nobody is doing anything in that area
because they fear a suit, but who knows - maybe the publishers want it that
way.


> The pay-to-play service model is worrying for me, I prefer ownership, so we
> will have to get someone then just me to look at it since I'm a little
> biased into the "I can play it without an internet connection thank you"
> realm.
>

Especially agreed here, though I think a library or archive could make do
with a connection service like this. Cloud computing has some excellent
promises, but unfortunately, we can't rely on it. Take the GDC as an
example: if I was word processing through cloud computing, I'd have a few
problems. First, we don't have internet access inside the conference rooms,
so you can't type. Second, if you DID have access, they don't have power
sockets sitting around that are easy to reach.

Cloud computing for games is a neat idea, but for the games that really
matter, you need to ahve a GOOD internet connection, and connection speeds
aren't currently fast enough to say stream gameplay from FarCry 2. The
advantage would be if it ever reached that level you could play how it was
intended without needing a smoking PC.

-Devin

-- 
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

"Until next time..."
Captain Commando
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090329/bccf3598/attachment.html>

From lowood at stanford.edu  Sun Mar 29 18:33:28 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 15:33:28 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] GDC Report Coming Soon + FileFront shutting
 down
In-Reply-To: <b96706b70903291303i9b42918ie61eca9840e95b54@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49CFC0C5.7030004@aarmstrong.org>
	<b96706b70903291303i9b42918ie61eca9840e95b54@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49CFF738.9000009@stanford.edu>

Andrew,

I am in touch with the people I know at IA about this.  Simon, too, I'm 
sure.  At the moment, like me, they do not have enough information to 
understand the options for formal action or a project.   It's important 
that at some point someone summarize where things are and what sorts of 
files would be involved in the rescue action.

Henry

Devin Monnens wrote:
> Andrew,
>
> If IA wants to host the FileFront stuff, why not just e-mail or 
> contact them and let them know. I honestly don't know what IA would 
> and would not take for archival.
>
> I'll try and write up some notes from the con as well, but I need to 
> do class prep for tomorrow as well, so it might be next weekend.
>
> -D
>
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Armstrong 
> <andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>> wrote:
>
>     I've got some notes to write up from GDC for the SIG, as well as a
>     report I'll write on the status of the "State of preservation".
>     This will be done next week, I'm still not back home yet :)
>
>     Feel free, anyone who wasn't able to attend GDC or who has and
>     wants to comment, to bring up items to talk about here - I'll try
>     and summarise my notes, but questions on "Did you discuss XXX" or
>     "Can I suggest project YYY" or "Can I help since I joined the SIG
>     from seeing your leaflet" or even just "Hi I'm new" are all welcome.
>
>     The main thing I want to bring to people's attention just now is
>     there is some behind the scenes effort by Simon Carless, Jason
>     Scott and including a few others to try and somehow get the 48
>     Terabytes of files off FileFront - check this page for the sad
>     news that it is closing tomorrow! http://farewell.filefront.com/
>
>     Hopefully someone will be able to get the files in some form so
>     they can be uploaded to the Internet Archive. If anyone has a
>     contact at FileFront it would be worth ringing them now and seeing
>     perhaps if the files can be secured somehow (or ring up/contact
>     Jason Scott to help his efforts).
>
>     Andrew
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>
> "Until next time..."
> Captain Commando
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090329/dc88203e/attachment.htm>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sun Mar 29 21:39:31 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:39:31 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] GDC Report Coming Soon + FileFront shutting
 down
In-Reply-To: <49CFF738.9000009@stanford.edu>
References: <49CFC0C5.7030004@aarmstrong.org>	<b96706b70903291303i9b42918ie61eca9840e95b54@mail.gmail.com>
	<49CFF738.9000009@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <49D022D3.3080200@aarmstrong.org>

Yeah, I've no idea - you've had the same information I have, I think the 
breakdown of file types will be pretty high in the EXE and movie fields, 
a little audio, and some text and screenshots. As for amounts, I've no 
idea, I have no contact at FileFront and there is only a general email 
to try, which no doubt someone (hopefully!) has already tried for 
information on this issue :)

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> Andrew,
>
> I am in touch with the people I know at IA about this.  Simon, too, 
> I'm sure.  At the moment, like me, they do not have enough information 
> to understand the options for formal action or a project.   It's 
> important that at some point someone summarize where things are and 
> what sorts of files would be involved in the rescue action.
>
> Henry
>
> Devin Monnens wrote:
>> Andrew,
>>
>> If IA wants to host the FileFront stuff, why not just e-mail or 
>> contact them and let them know. I honestly don't know what IA would 
>> and would not take for archival.
>>
>> I'll try and write up some notes from the con as well, but I need to 
>> do class prep for tomorrow as well, so it might be next weekend.
>>
>> -D
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Armstrong 
>> <andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>> wrote:
>>
>>     I've got some notes to write up from GDC for the SIG, as well as
>>     a report I'll write on the status of the "State of preservation".
>>     This will be done next week, I'm still not back home yet :)
>>
>>     Feel free, anyone who wasn't able to attend GDC or who has and
>>     wants to comment, to bring up items to talk about here - I'll try
>>     and summarise my notes, but questions on "Did you discuss XXX" or
>>     "Can I suggest project YYY" or "Can I help since I joined the SIG
>>     from seeing your leaflet" or even just "Hi I'm new" are all welcome.
>>
>>     The main thing I want to bring to people's attention just now is
>>     there is some behind the scenes effort by Simon Carless, Jason
>>     Scott and including a few others to try and somehow get the 48
>>     Terabytes of files off FileFront - check this page for the sad
>>     news that it is closing tomorrow! http://farewell.filefront.com/
>>
>>     Hopefully someone will be able to get the files in some form so
>>     they can be uploaded to the Internet Archive. If anyone has a
>>     contact at FileFront it would be worth ringing them now and
>>     seeing perhaps if the files can be secured somehow (or ring
>>     up/contact Jason Scott to help his efforts).
>>
>>     Andrew
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>>
>> "Until next time..."
>> Captain Commando
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
>
> -- 
> Henry Lowood
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>      Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library
> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
> lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090329/62f60468/attachment.htm>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sun Mar 29 21:41:08 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:41:08 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Online DRM
In-Reply-To: <b96706b70903291309p2f4c842ex710d802b187c803c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49CBAD70.7090400@digitalgamearchive.org>	<49CBDD10.6090103@stanford.edu>
	<49CFC27E.1040407@aarmstrong.org>
	<b96706b70903291309p2f4c842ex710d802b187c803c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49D02334.5020504@aarmstrong.org>

Glad you're in agreement, we'll sort some info later this year, there 
might need some more discussion - because of the multiple territories 
involved, and we should do some "journalism" (or just research) and 
contact the publishers and developers about their systems.

Another thing just on this:

Devin Monnens wrote:
> Cloud computing for games is a neat idea, but for the games that 
> really matter, you need to ahve a GOOD internet connection, and 
> connection speeds aren't currently fast enough to say stream gameplay 
> from FarCry 2. The advantage would be if it ever reached that level 
> you could play how it was intended without needing a smoking PC.

Did anyone else see the silly service OnLive thing? (I think) - 
ridiculous claims about gaming on anything because of a server doing the 
game processing and just sending video? :) utterly bizarre how anyone 
thinks this is scalable, especially the silly timings they gave like 1MS 
lag times - meaning things running, yes, at 1000FPS on the server! 
(nevermind the video encoding time needed for 60FPS at 5Mbps).

Things like that, if they ever did get off the ground (and there are 
some examples of low fidelity video streaming games working...) are an 
entirely new kettle of fish!

Andrew

From evilcowclone at gmail.com  Sun Mar 29 21:53:38 2009
From: evilcowclone at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:53:38 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] GDC Report Coming Soon + FileFront shutting
	down
In-Reply-To: <49D022D3.3080200@aarmstrong.org>
References: <49CFC0C5.7030004@aarmstrong.org>
	<b96706b70903291303i9b42918ie61eca9840e95b54@mail.gmail.com>
	<49CFF738.9000009@stanford.edu> <49D022D3.3080200@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <b96706b70903291853r5f4aff8cha4ecc100d898277d@mail.gmail.com>

I'll also add to the list that the issue of Edge they were handing out at
GDC has a lot of information on metadata on the web and how all that is in
danger of being lost. They mention a MUD info site that went down among
other things, as well as the National Videogame Archive in the UK, but no
mention of the IGDA! Anyway, good article and worth putting in the
resources.

-D

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

>  Yeah, I've no idea - you've had the same information I have, I think the
> breakdown of file types will be pretty high in the EXE and movie fields, a
> little audio, and some text and screenshots. As for amounts, I've no idea, I
> have no contact at FileFront and there is only a general email to try, which
> no doubt someone (hopefully!) has already tried for information on this
> issue :)
>
> Andrew
>
> Henry Lowood wrote:
>
> Andrew,
>
> I am in touch with the people I know at IA about this.  Simon, too, I'm
> sure.  At the moment, like me, they do not have enough information to
> understand the options for formal action or a project.   It's important that
> at some point someone summarize where things are and what sorts of files
> would be involved in the rescue action.
>
> Henry
>
> Devin Monnens wrote:
>
> Andrew,
>
> If IA wants to host the FileFront stuff, why not just e-mail or contact
> them and let them know. I honestly don't know what IA would and would not
> take for archival.
>
> I'll try and write up some notes from the con as well, but I need to do
> class prep for tomorrow as well, so it might be next weekend.
>
> -D
>
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:
>
>> I've got some notes to write up from GDC for the SIG, as well as a report
>> I'll write on the status of the "State of preservation". This will be done
>> next week, I'm still not back home yet :)
>>
>> Feel free, anyone who wasn't able to attend GDC or who has and wants to
>> comment, to bring up items to talk about here - I'll try and summarise my
>> notes, but questions on "Did you discuss XXX" or "Can I suggest project YYY"
>> or "Can I help since I joined the SIG from seeing your leaflet" or even just
>> "Hi I'm new" are all welcome.
>>
>> The main thing I want to bring to people's attention just now is there is
>> some behind the scenes effort by Simon Carless, Jason Scott and including a
>> few others to try and somehow get the 48 Terabytes of files off FileFront -
>> check this page for the sad news that it is closing tomorrow!
>> http://farewell.filefront.com/
>>
>> Hopefully someone will be able to get the files in some form so they can
>> be uploaded to the Internet Archive. If anyone has a contact at FileFront it
>> would be worth ringing them now and seeing perhaps if the files can be
>> secured somehow (or ring up/contact Jason Scott to help his efforts).
>>
>> Andrew
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>
>
>
> --
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>
> "Until next time..."
> Captain Commando
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> --
> Henry Lowood
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>      Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library
> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USAhttp://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>


-- 
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

"Until next time..."
Captain Commando
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090329/3eb2b5e6/attachment.html>

From lange at digitalgamearchive.org  Mon Mar 30 11:09:37 2009
From: lange at digitalgamearchive.org (Andreas Lange)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:09:37 +0200
Subject: [game_preservation] Online DRM
In-Reply-To: <b96706b70903291309p2f4c842ex710d802b187c803c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49CBAD70.7090400@digitalgamearchive.org>	<49CBDD10.6090103@stanford.edu>
	<49CFC27E.1040407@aarmstrong.org>
	<b96706b70903291309p2f4c842ex710d802b187c803c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49D0E0B1.6070202@digitalgamearchive.org>

The KEEP project will be a first step into the systematic research on 
that topic. We just published a call for a legal study on the whole 
emulation complex including the DRM issue. The study will cover at least 
the legal territories of France, Germany and Netherlands. Without 
wanting to anticipate the outcome of the study I expect that further 
legal actions must be undertaken, like the exeption on the DMCA, which 
was granted in 2003 (http://www.copyright.gov/1201/). In spite this was 
an important step to enable archives to preserve games legally (at least 
in the US), online DRM systems seem to be a new challenge to me, where 
the archivists depends on the volontary cooperation of the industry. 
Therefore I was interested to hear, if that was a topic at the GDC.
Andreas


Devin Monnens schrieb:
> Agreed on all points, Andrew. There needs to be something systematic on this
> in terms of lawsuits that have been filed, etc. It's a gray area because
> nobody knows anything. And that means nobody is doing anything in that area
> because they fear a suit, but who knows - maybe the publishers want it that
> way.
> 
> 
>> The pay-to-play service model is worrying for me, I prefer ownership, so we
>> will have to get someone then just me to look at it since I'm a little
>> biased into the "I can play it without an internet connection thank you"
>> realm.
>>
> 
> Especially agreed here, though I think a library or archive could make do
> with a connection service like this. Cloud computing has some excellent
> promises, but unfortunately, we can't rely on it. Take the GDC as an
> example: if I was word processing through cloud computing, I'd have a few
> problems. First, we don't have internet access inside the conference rooms,
> so you can't type. Second, if you DID have access, they don't have power
> sockets sitting around that are easy to reach.
> 
> Cloud computing for games is a neat idea, but for the games that really
> matter, you need to ahve a GOOD internet connection, and connection speeds
> aren't currently fast enough to say stream gameplay from FarCry 2. The
> advantage would be if it ever reached that level you could play how it was
> intended without needing a smoking PC.
> 
> -Devin
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation


From donahrm at gmail.com  Mon Mar 30 11:15:42 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel Donahue)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:15:42 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] Online DRM
In-Reply-To: <49D0E0B1.6070202@digitalgamearchive.org>
References: <49CBAD70.7090400@digitalgamearchive.org>
	<49CBDD10.6090103@stanford.edu> <49CFC27E.1040407@aarmstrong.org>
	<b96706b70903291309p2f4c842ex710d802b187c803c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D0E0B1.6070202@digitalgamearchive.org>
Message-ID: <f2d80c160903300815l1cdc7286ie0c2ee4970994a92@mail.gmail.com>

>
>  anticipate the outcome of the study I expect that further legal actions
> must be undertaken, like the exeption on the DMCA, which was granted in 2003
> (http://www.copyright.gov/1201/). In spite this was an important step to
> enable archives to preserve games legally (at least in the US), online DRM
> systems seem to be a new challenge to me, where the archivists depends on
> the volontary cooperation of the industry. Therefore I was interested to
> hear, if that was a topic at the GDC.
> Andreas
>


Unfortunately, all US DMCA exemptions were discontinued with only a slight
whisper on the net, and had to be re-submitted for consideration in the new
set (this happens every 3 years). There are public hearings on these
proposals in May.

-------
Rachel Donahue
Graduate Assistant
Maryland Institute for Technology in the Humanities
University of Maryland, College Park
College Park, MD
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090330/282d010b/attachment.html>

From lange at digitalgamearchive.org  Tue Mar 31 03:23:59 2009
From: lange at digitalgamearchive.org (Andreas Lange)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:23:59 +0200
Subject: [game_preservation] Online DRM
In-Reply-To: <f2d80c160903300815l1cdc7286ie0c2ee4970994a92@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49CBAD70.7090400@digitalgamearchive.org>	<49CBDD10.6090103@stanford.edu>
	<49CFC27E.1040407@aarmstrong.org>	<b96706b70903291309p2f4c842ex710d802b187c803c@mail.gmail.com>	<49D0E0B1.6070202@digitalgamearchive.org>
	<f2d80c160903300815l1cdc7286ie0c2ee4970994a92@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49D1C50F.7030203@digitalgamearchive.org>

Dear Rachel,
thanks for the info, which I didn't know. When did that happen? Does 
anyone know why? And what is the schedule for the next round of DMCA 
evaluation after the hearings will have started in May?
While the US law is not directly relevant for us in Germany, I could use 
this DMCA exeption as a good reference for our local law making process.
Andreas


Rachel Donahue schrieb:
>>  anticipate the outcome of the study I expect that further legal actions
>> must be undertaken, like the exeption on the DMCA, which was granted in 2003
>> (http://www.copyright.gov/1201/). In spite this was an important step to
>> enable archives to preserve games legally (at least in the US), online DRM
>> systems seem to be a new challenge to me, where the archivists depends on
>> the volontary cooperation of the industry. Therefore I was interested to
>> hear, if that was a topic at the GDC.
>> Andreas
>>
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, all US DMCA exemptions were discontinued with only a slight
> whisper on the net, and had to be re-submitted for consideration in the new
> set (this happens every 3 years). There are public hearings on these
> proposals in May.
> 
> -------
> Rachel Donahue
> Graduate Assistant
> Maryland Institute for Technology in the Humanities
> University of Maryland, College Park
> College Park, MD
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation


From donahrm at gmail.com  Tue Mar 31 09:04:25 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:04:25 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] Online DRM
In-Reply-To: <49D1C50F.7030203@digitalgamearchive.org>
References: <49CBAD70.7090400@digitalgamearchive.org>
	<49CBDD10.6090103@stanford.edu> <49CFC27E.1040407@aarmstrong.org>
	<b96706b70903291309p2f4c842ex710d802b187c803c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D0E0B1.6070202@digitalgamearchive.org>
	<f2d80c160903300815l1cdc7286ie0c2ee4970994a92@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D1C50F.7030203@digitalgamearchive.org>
Message-ID: <op.urnqlmr1fmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>

The exemptions are on a 3-year cycle. More info can be found here:
http://www.copyright.gov/1201/


On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 03:23:59 -0400, Andreas Lange  
<lange at digitalgamearchive.org> wrote:

> Dear Rachel,
> thanks for the info, which I didn't know. When did that happen? Does  
> anyone know why? And what is the schedule for the next round of DMCA  
> evaluation after the hearings will have started in May?
> While the US law is not directly relevant for us in Germany, I could use  
> this DMCA exeption as a good reference for our local law making process.
> Andreas

From lowood at stanford.edu  Tue Mar 31 12:36:38 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:36:38 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Online DRM
In-Reply-To: <op.urnqlmr1fmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
References: <49CBAD70.7090400@digitalgamearchive.org>	<49CBDD10.6090103@stanford.edu>
	<49CFC27E.1040407@aarmstrong.org>	<b96706b70903291309p2f4c842ex710d802b187c803c@mail.gmail.com>	<49D0E0B1.6070202@digitalgamearchive.org>	<f2d80c160903300815l1cdc7286ie0c2ee4970994a92@mail.gmail.com>	<49D1C50F.7030203@digitalgamearchive.org>
	<op.urnqlmr1fmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <49D24696.9020006@stanford.edu>

This was an effort of the Internet Archive, assisted by Stanford, which 
provided examples from the Cabrinety Collection.  I believe there is a 
page on their website that describes the effort, why it happened, etc.

Henry

Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
> The exemptions are on a 3-year cycle. More info can be found here:
> http://www.copyright.gov/1201/
>
>
> On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 03:23:59 -0400, Andreas Lange 
> <lange at digitalgamearchive.org> wrote:
>
>> Dear Rachel,
>> thanks for the info, which I didn't know. When did that happen? Does 
>> anyone know why? And what is the schedule for the next round of DMCA 
>> evaluation after the hearings will have started in May?
>> While the US law is not directly relevant for us in Germany, I could 
>> use this DMCA exeption as a good reference for our local law making 
>> process.
>> Andreas
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/game_preservation/attachments/20090331/989a3281/attachment.html>