[game_preservation] game_preservation Digest, Vol 38, Issue 11
Sjwebley
sjwebley at nildram.co.uk
Wed Mar 11 12:58:11 EDT 2009
--------- Original Message --------
From: game_preservation at igda.org
To: game_preservation at igda.org <game_preservation at igda.org>
Subject: game_preservation Digest, Vol 38, Issue 11
Date: 11/03/09 16:00
> Hi Guys, I would be very interested in seeing the Tabula Rasa videos. I
presented a paper last year (last May if I remember correctly)on the
Historiographical and social significance of participating in MMORPGs where
I predicted the demise of Tabula Rasa. I did so on the grounds that combat
and conflict within the game did not portray war as true extension of mans'
asocial sociability. It is one of the very rare occasions when I have got
things right for a change. The paper is currently off being edited by a
colleague - would the SIG be interested in a copy?
Steve Webley
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: A Life Well Wasted (Henry Lowood)
> 2. Re: A Life Well Wasted (Andrew Armstrong)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 09:31:56 -0700
> From: Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu>
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
> To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG <game_preservation at igda.org>
> Message-ID: <49B695FC.4000704 at stanford.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1";
Format="flowed"
>
> Andrew,
>
> A propos Tabula Rasa, we are in touch with the guys who documented the
> last moments and have permission to add their video to the collection.
> So yes, we got it.
>
> Henry
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> > I'd like to agree with Henry here on all counts. Videos are not
> > equivalent (nothing is except for a time machine), but I think
> > historians will prefer that to any re-enactments - as stated, while
> > Civil War guys might march around with full kit, but historians would
> > kill to have a video of the lives of those soldiers (or anyone else
at
> > that time in history!).
> >
> > If we start saying it's "Not good enough" in any way we
just need to
> > go back 100 years and see how little was filmed, and think how much
we
> > miss in history because of it (and how much actual film, audio and
> > other culture has been lost permanently). It's easy to wave a hand if
> > it's all you know, but certainly I'd welcome much much more to the
> > IA's collections. I hope Henry got some good stuff of Tabular Rasa
> > closing for instance! Once in a games lifetime experience that, not
> > something that can ever be remade.
> >
> > On singleplayer: Let's Play's are awesome ;) Need to check and see if
> > any are being made of MMO's, there are a odd few around - gets the
> > experience with commentary, which is ace :) - footage is good,
footage
> > with commentary (optional is best) is even better, which I intend to
> > try at some point.
> >
> > Reminded me to listen to these - I've added them to my MP3 player
now,
> > I don't know why I forgot before.
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > Henry Lowood wrote:
> >> Hi Stuart,
> >>
> >> Well, I guess we disagree a little on the value of gameplay
> >> documentation (which is not just video). My point was that
> >> documenting a complex multi-player or massively multi-player
world is
> >> as much about documenting events that happen in those spaces as
it is
> >> about preserving software. I don't think that's marginal at all.
> >>
> >> If the focus is on "experiences," then I agree with
you. That sort of
> >> preservation is closer to re-enactment than history, however.
Ok,
> >> yes, it is possible that groups will get together to play
Everquest
> >> in 100 years, just like they camp out in Civil War replica
uniforms
> >> and fire muskets in line. But that experience is NOT the
experience
> >> of what happens in virtual worlds today, i.e., it is not going to
be
> >> history. It is still going to take place 100 years from now, no
> >> matter how you cut it. For similar reasons, I disagree strongly
that
> >> playing with bots is going to be informative, at least in terms
of
> >> historical work.
> >>
> >> In Preserving Virtual Worlds, our goal is to do both -- software
> >> preservation and "event" preservation (for want of a
better term).
> >> My emphasis on documentation of player behavior is more of a
> >> corrective to the idea that it's all about software preservation
than
> >> it is an attempt to say we should only do video capture and
gather
> >> documentation. But if you put a gun to my head and say pick one
or
> >> the other, software or documentation, you can't have both, as a
> >> historian I would go for documentation.
> >>
> >> Last, video capture of single-player games is absolutely useful;
I
> >> certainly agree with that statement.
> >>
> >> Henry
> >>
> >> Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I just listened to both episodes. I thought they were very
well
> >>> done, although I think they would both have been improved by
video
> >>> -- especially the one on collectors. You can't begin to
understand
> >>> collectors until you actually SEE some of their collections.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Henry, you made a comment in the podcast that a single player
game
> >>> can be booted up in 100 years and enjoyed, but a multi-player
game
> >>> can't be, because it requires other people to play, and the
guy
> >>> won't be able to find other people to play it with him.
Regardless
> >>> if that is true or not, it's impossible to preserve the
actual
> >>> experience of playing the game by taking video and
screenshots. The
> >>> only way the guy in 100 years is going to be able to have the
> >>> experience of playing the game is if he manages to get a
whole bunch
> >>> of other people to play with him, or if we can design
suitably
> >>> convincing bots to take the place of the other players.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I agree that gameplay videos have value, but the same applies
to
> >>> gameplay videos of single player games. What is specifically
added
> >>> to the mix by preserving gameplay videos from multi-player
games? It
> >>> sounded from the podcast as if this was some kind of solution
to the
> >>> problem of preserving multi-player games in general. I think
it's
> >>> useful, but it only adds marginally to the preservation of
the game
> >>> experience.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Stuart
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org
> >>> [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of
*Henry Lowood
> >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:11 PM
> >>> *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG
> >>> *Subject:* [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Some of you may be interested in the far-flung corners of the
world
> >>> that the Preserving Virtual Worlds project has reached.
Others I
> >>> know are intensely interested in the world of game
collectors. In
> >>> either case, check out Robert Ashley's new podcast, A Life
Well Wasted:
> >>> http://alifewellwasted.com/feed/atom/
> >>> The second episode covers the world of game collectors, which
I have
> >>> to say is not so different in some ways from book collectors
(said
> >>> from a library perspective). The last quarter or so is about
our
> >>> project. Robert Ashley, the man behind ALWW, has said on
forums he
> >>> might release the interview with me in its entirety. He is a
bright
> >>> guy and a great interviewer -- makes you wonder about all the
talent
> >>> shaking loose from 1Up.
> >>> Oh, the first podcast is also interesting, covering the
history and
> >>> demise of EGM.
> >>> Henry
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> >>>
> >>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
> >>>
> >>> Film & Media Collections
> >>>
> >>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> >>>
> >>> Stanford University Libraries
> >>>
> >>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> >>>
> >>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu
<mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>;
> >>> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
> >>>
> >>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> game_preservation mailing list
> >>> game_preservation at igda.org
> >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> >> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
> >> Film & Media Collections
> >> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> >> Stanford University Libraries
> >> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> >> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu;
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
> >> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
> >>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> game_preservation mailing list
> >> game_preservation at igda.org
> >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> >>
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > game_preservation mailing list
> > game_preservation at igda.org
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> >
>
> --
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
> Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:34:52 +0000
> From: Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
> To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG <game_preservation at igda.org>
> Message-ID: <49B696AC.5070101 at aarmstrong.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1";
Format="flowed"
>
> Cool! I heard "good things" from Idle Thumbs, after Chris Remo
stopped
> dicking around saying he was a new player ;)
>
> Thought it'd be interesting to see, if I wasn't busy that weekend I'd
> have gone in myself and got a bit of stuff.
>
> Andrew
>
> Henry Lowood wrote:
> > Andrew,
> >
> > A propos Tabula Rasa, we are in touch with the guys who documented
the
> > last moments and have permission to add their video to the
collection.
> > So yes, we got it.
> >
> > Henry
> >
> > Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> >> I'd like to agree with Henry here on all counts. Videos are not
> >> equivalent (nothing is except for a time machine), but I think
> >> historians will prefer that to any re-enactments - as stated,
while
> >> Civil War guys might march around with full kit, but historians
would
> >> kill to have a video of the lives of those soldiers (or anyone
else
> >> at that time in history!).
> >>
> >> If we start saying it's "Not good enough" in any way we
just need to
> >> go back 100 years and see how little was filmed, and think how
much
> >> we miss in history because of it (and how much actual film, audio
and
> >> other culture has been lost permanently). It's easy to wave a
hand if
> >> it's all you know, but certainly I'd welcome much much more to
the
> >> IA's collections. I hope Henry got some good stuff of Tabular
Rasa
> >> closing for instance! Once in a games lifetime experience that,
not
> >> something that can ever be remade.
> >>
> >> On singleplayer: Let's Play's are awesome ;) Need to check and
see if
> >> any are being made of MMO's, there are a odd few around - gets
the
> >> experience with commentary, which is ace :) - footage is good,
> >> footage with commentary (optional is best) is even better, which
I
> >> intend to try at some point.
> >>
> >> Reminded me to listen to these - I've added them to my MP3 player
> >> now, I don't know why I forgot before.
> >>
> >> Andrew
> >>
> >> Henry Lowood wrote:
> >>> Hi Stuart,
> >>>
> >>> Well, I guess we disagree a little on the value of gameplay
> >>> documentation (which is not just video). My point was that
> >>> documenting a complex multi-player or massively multi-player
world
> >>> is as much about documenting events that happen in those
spaces as
> >>> it is about preserving software. I don't think that's
marginal at all.
> >>>
> >>> If the focus is on "experiences," then I agree with
you. That sort
> >>> of preservation is closer to re-enactment than history,
however.
> >>> Ok, yes, it is possible that groups will get together to play
> >>> Everquest in 100 years, just like they camp out in Civil War
replica
> >>> uniforms and fire muskets in line. But that experience is
NOT the
> >>> experience of what happens in virtual worlds today, i.e., it
is not
> >>> going to be history. It is still going to take place 100
years from
> >>> now, no matter how you cut it. For similar reasons, I
disagree
> >>> strongly that playing with bots is going to be informative,
at least
> >>> in terms of historical work.
> >>>
> >>> In Preserving Virtual Worlds, our goal is to do both --
software
> >>> preservation and "event" preservation (for want of
a better term).
> >>> My emphasis on documentation of player behavior is more of a
> >>> corrective to the idea that it's all about software
preservation
> >>> than it is an attempt to say we should only do video capture
and
> >>> gather documentation. But if you put a gun to my head and
say pick
> >>> one or the other, software or documentation, you can't have
both, as
> >>> a historian I would go for documentation.
> >>>
> >>> Last, video capture of single-player games is absolutely
useful; I
> >>> certainly agree with that statement.
> >>>
> >>> Henry
> >>>
> >>> Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I just listened to both episodes. I thought they were
very well
> >>>> done, although I think they would both have been improved
by video
> >>>> -- especially the one on collectors. You can't begin to
understand
> >>>> collectors until you actually SEE some of their
collections.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Henry, you made a comment in the podcast that a single
player game
> >>>> can be booted up in 100 years and enjoyed, but a
multi-player game
> >>>> can't be, because it requires other people to play, and
the guy
> >>>> won't be able to find other people to play it with him.
Regardless
> >>>> if that is true or not, it's impossible to preserve the
actual
> >>>> experience of playing the game by taking video and
screenshots. The
> >>>> only way the guy in 100 years is going to be able to have
the
> >>>> experience of playing the game is if he manages to get a
whole
> >>>> bunch of other people to play with him, or if we can
design
> >>>> suitably convincing bots to take the place of the other
players.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I agree that gameplay videos have value, but the same
applies to
> >>>> gameplay videos of single player games. What is
specifically added
> >>>> to the mix by preserving gameplay videos from
multi-player games?
> >>>> It sounded from the podcast as if this was some kind of
solution to
> >>>> the problem of preserving multi-player games in general.
I think
> >>>> it's useful, but it only adds marginally to the
preservation of the
> >>>> game experience.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Stuart
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> *From:* game_preservation-bounces at igda.org
> >>>> [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of
*Henry Lowood
> >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:11 PM
> >>>> *To:* IGDA Game Preservation SIG
> >>>> *Subject:* [game_preservation] A Life Well Wasted
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Some of you may be interested in the far-flung corners of
the world
> >>>> that the Preserving Virtual Worlds project has reached.
Others I
> >>>> know are intensely interested in the world of game
collectors. In
> >>>> either case, check out Robert Ashley's new podcast, A
Life Well Wasted:
> >>>> http://alifewellwasted.com/feed/atom/
> >>>> The second episode covers the world of game collectors,
which I
> >>>> have to say is not so different in some ways from book
collectors
> >>>> (said from a library perspective). The last quarter or so
is about
> >>>> our project. Robert Ashley, the man behind ALWW, has said
on forums
> >>>> he might release the interview with me in its entirety.
He is a
> >>>> bright guy and a great interviewer -- makes you wonder
about all
> >>>> the talent shaking loose from 1Up.
> >>>> Oh, the first podcast is also interesting, covering the
history and
> >>>> demise of EGM.
> >>>> Henry
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> >>>>
> >>>> Curator for History of Science & Technology
Collections;
> >>>>
> >>>> Film & Media Collections
> >>>>
> >>>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> >>>>
> >>>> Stanford University Libraries
> >>>>
> >>>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> >>>>
> >>>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu
<mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>;
> >>>> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
> >>>>
> >>>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> game_preservation mailing list
> >>>> game_preservation at igda.org
> >>>>
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> >>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
> >>> Film & Media Collections
> >>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> >>> Stanford University Libraries
> >>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> >>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu;
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
> >>> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
> >>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> game_preservation mailing list
> >>> game_preservation at igda.org
> >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> >>>
> >>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> game_preservation mailing list
> >> game_preservation at igda.org
> >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> > Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
> > Film & Media Collections
> > HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> > Stanford University Libraries
> > Stanford CA 94305-6004
> > 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
> > <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > game_preservation mailing list
> > game_preservation at igda.org
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> >
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>
> End of game_preservation Digest, Vol 38, Issue 11
> *************************************************
>
>
>
>
>
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