From lowood at stanford.edu  Tue Sep  1 12:51:38 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 09:51:38 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] [Fwd: [SIGs-Admin] QOL Survey]
Message-ID: <4A9D511A.2010107@stanford.edu>

This announcement from IGDA Central:

The QOL survey is up.  The link is 
http://www.igda.org/qol/qol_survey.php   - OR -- you can reach it by 
clicking Survey from : http://www.igda.org/qol/.  

 

Please announce this to all your SIGs.  We'll be coordinating press 
releases with David Wright, but any other form of announcement is 
welcome.  The idea is to get the word out.   We want mass quantities of 
data. 

 

Thanks,

Judy

 


-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
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From mike at multimedia.cx  Tue Sep  1 22:25:08 2009
From: mike at multimedia.cx (Mike Melanson)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:25:08 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] [Fwd: [SIGs-Admin] QOL Survey]
In-Reply-To: <4A9D511A.2010107@stanford.edu>
References: <4A9D511A.2010107@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <4A9DD784.4080202@multimedia.cx>

Henry Lowood wrote:
> This announcement from IGDA Central:
> 
> The QOL survey is up.  The link is 
> http://www.igda.org/qol/qol_survey.php   - OR ? you can reach it by 
> clicking Survey from : http://www.igda.org/qol/.  

Are we supposed to know what QOL means?

-- 
     -Mike Melanson

From dmonnens at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 23:20:40 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 21:20:40 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] [Fwd: [SIGs-Admin] QOL Survey]
In-Reply-To: <4A9DD784.4080202@multimedia.cx>
References: <4A9D511A.2010107@stanford.edu> <4A9DD784.4080202@multimedia.cx>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909012020r16dbb6c3yf7dff4b06d62d2ea@mail.gmail.com>

Quality of Living. I can't take this because I'm not employed in the
industry. Heck, I'm barely even employed as it is!!

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Mike Melanson <mike at multimedia.cx> wrote:

> Henry Lowood wrote:
>
>> This announcement from IGDA Central:
>>
>> The QOL survey is up.  The link is http://www.igda.org/qol/qol_survey.php  - OR ? you can reach it by clicking Survey from :
>> http://www.igda.org/qol/.
>>
>
> Are we supposed to know what QOL means?
>
> --
>    -Mike Melanson
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>



-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From lowood at stanford.edu  Wed Sep  2 01:45:36 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 22:45:36 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] [Fwd: [SIGs-Admin] QOL Survey]
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909012020r16dbb6c3yf7dff4b06d62d2ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9D511A.2010107@stanford.edu> <4A9DD784.4080202@multimedia.cx>
	<9d1cf2d50909012020r16dbb6c3yf7dff4b06d62d2ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9E0680.3060607@stanford.edu>

Welcome to the Game Pres SIG ...


Devin Monnens wrote:
> Quality of Living. I can't take this because I'm not employed in the 
> industry. Heck, I'm barely even employed as it is!!
>
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Mike Melanson <mike at multimedia.cx 
> <mailto:mike at multimedia.cx>> wrote:
>
>     Henry Lowood wrote:
>
>         This announcement from IGDA Central:
>
>         The QOL survey is up.  The link is
>         http://www.igda.org/qol/qol_survey.php   - OR ? you can reach
>         it by clicking Survey from : http://www.igda.org/qol/.  
>
>
>     Are we supposed to know what QOL means?
>
>     -- 
>        -Mike Melanson
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

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From mike at multimedia.cx  Wed Sep  2 02:31:46 2009
From: mike at multimedia.cx (Mike Melanson)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:31:46 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] [Fwd: [SIGs-Admin] QOL Survey]
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909012020r16dbb6c3yf7dff4b06d62d2ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9D511A.2010107@stanford.edu> <4A9DD784.4080202@multimedia.cx>
	<9d1cf2d50909012020r16dbb6c3yf7dff4b06d62d2ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9E1152.6020200@multimedia.cx>

Heh, I'm going to forward this to someone I know who used to program for 
the big, sinister Electronic Arts and trigger another fit of pure rage. :)

-- 
     -Mike Melanson


Devin Monnens wrote:
> Quality of Living. I can't take this because I'm not employed in the 
> industry. Heck, I'm barely even employed as it is!!
> 
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Mike Melanson <mike at multimedia.cx 
> <mailto:mike at multimedia.cx>> wrote:
> 
>     Henry Lowood wrote:
> 
>         This announcement from IGDA Central:
> 
>         The QOL survey is up.  The link is
>         http://www.igda.org/qol/qol_survey.php   - OR ? you can reach it
>         by clicking Survey from : http://www.igda.org/qol/.  
> 
> 
>     Are we supposed to know what QOL means?
> 
>     -- 
>        -Mike Melanson
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
> 
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation



From dmonnens at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 08:55:32 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 06:55:32 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] [Fwd: [SIGs-Admin] QOL Survey]
In-Reply-To: <4A9E1152.6020200@multimedia.cx>
References: <4A9D511A.2010107@stanford.edu> <4A9DD784.4080202@multimedia.cx>
	<9d1cf2d50909012020r16dbb6c3yf7dff4b06d62d2ea@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9E1152.6020200@multimedia.cx>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909020555u79c4fd11hf766a27f878b9f17@mail.gmail.com>

Wouldn't it make sense for them to add something to the survey like 'I am
employed in a different field' or 'I lost my job in the industry/am trying
to get a job in the industry'?

On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Mike Melanson <mike at multimedia.cx> wrote:

> Heh, I'm going to forward this to someone I know who used to program for
> the big, sinister Electronic Arts and trigger another fit of pure rage. :)
>
> --
>    -Mike Melanson
>
>
> Devin Monnens wrote:
>
>> Quality of Living. I can't take this because I'm not employed in the
>> industry. Heck, I'm barely even employed as it is!!
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Mike Melanson <mike at multimedia.cx<mailto:
>> mike at multimedia.cx>> wrote:
>>
>>    Henry Lowood wrote:
>>
>>        This announcement from IGDA Central:
>>
>>        The QOL survey is up.  The link is
>>        http://www.igda.org/qol/qol_survey.php   - OR ? you can reach it
>>        by clicking Survey from : http://www.igda.org/qol/.
>>
>>    Are we supposed to know what QOL means?
>>
>>    --       -Mike Melanson
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    game_preservation mailing list
>>    game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>    http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Devin Monnens
>> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>>
>> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>



-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From mike at multimedia.cx  Wed Sep  2 09:55:56 2009
From: mike at multimedia.cx (Mike Melanson)
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 06:55:56 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] [Fwd: [SIGs-Admin] QOL Survey]
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909020555u79c4fd11hf766a27f878b9f17@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9D511A.2010107@stanford.edu>
	<4A9DD784.4080202@multimedia.cx>	<9d1cf2d50909012020r16dbb6c3yf7dff4b06d62d2ea@mail.gmail.com>	<4A9E1152.6020200@multimedia.cx>
	<9d1cf2d50909020555u79c4fd11hf766a27f878b9f17@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9E796C.50404@multimedia.cx>

How about 'I am employed at one of the largest makers of casual game 
backend engines'?

-- 
     -Mike Melanson

Devin Monnens wrote:
> Wouldn't it make sense for them to add something to the survey like 'I 
> am employed in a different field' or 'I lost my job in the industry/am 
> trying to get a job in the industry'?
> 
> On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Mike Melanson <mike at multimedia.cx 
> <mailto:mike at multimedia.cx>> wrote:
> 
>     Heh, I'm going to forward this to someone I know who used to program
>     for the big, sinister Electronic Arts and trigger another fit of
>     pure rage. :)
> 
>     -- 
>        -Mike Melanson
> 
> 
>     Devin Monnens wrote:
> 
>         Quality of Living. I can't take this because I'm not employed in
>         the industry. Heck, I'm barely even employed as it is!!
> 
>         On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Mike Melanson
>         <mike at multimedia.cx <mailto:mike at multimedia.cx>
>         <mailto:mike at multimedia.cx <mailto:mike at multimedia.cx>>> wrote:
> 
>            Henry Lowood wrote:
> 
>                This announcement from IGDA Central:
> 
>                The QOL survey is up.  The link is
>                http://www.igda.org/qol/qol_survey.php   - OR ? you can
>         reach it
>                by clicking Survey from : http://www.igda.org/qol/.  
> 
>            Are we supposed to know what QOL means?
> 
>            --       -Mike Melanson
>            _______________________________________________
>            game_preservation mailing list
>            game_preservation at igda.org
>         <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>         <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org
>         <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>>
> 
>            http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> 
> 
> 
> 
>         -- 
>         Devin Monnens
>         www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>         <http://www.deserthat.com>
> 
> 
>         The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> 
> 
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>         _______________________________________________
>         game_preservation mailing list
>         game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>         http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> 
> 
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
> 
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation




From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 22:12:39 2009
From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 22:12:39 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] [Fwd: [SIGs-Admin] QOL Survey]
In-Reply-To: <4A9E796C.50404@multimedia.cx>
References: <4A9D511A.2010107@stanford.edu>	<4A9DD784.4080202@multimedia.cx>	<9d1cf2d50909012020r16dbb6c3yf7dff4b06d62d2ea@mail.gmail.com>	<4A9E1152.6020200@multimedia.cx>	<9d1cf2d50909020555u79c4fd11hf766a27f878b9f17@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A9E796C.50404@multimedia.cx>
Message-ID: <002201ca2c3c$04e16260$0ea42720$@com>

What, you work for Adobe? :)

Stuart

-----Original Message-----
From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Mike Melanson
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 9:56 AM
To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG
Subject: Re: [game_preservation] [Fwd: [SIGs-Admin] QOL Survey]

How about 'I am employed at one of the largest makers of casual game 
backend engines'?

-- 
     -Mike Melanson

Devin Monnens wrote:
> Wouldn't it make sense for them to add something to the survey like 'I 
> am employed in a different field' or 'I lost my job in the industry/am 
> trying to get a job in the industry'?
> 
> On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Mike Melanson <mike at multimedia.cx 
> <mailto:mike at multimedia.cx>> wrote:
> 
>     Heh, I'm going to forward this to someone I know who used to program
>     for the big, sinister Electronic Arts and trigger another fit of
>     pure rage. :)
> 
>     -- 
>        -Mike Melanson
> 
> 
>     Devin Monnens wrote:
> 
>         Quality of Living. I can't take this because I'm not employed in
>         the industry. Heck, I'm barely even employed as it is!!
> 
>         On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Mike Melanson
>         <mike at multimedia.cx <mailto:mike at multimedia.cx>
>         <mailto:mike at multimedia.cx <mailto:mike at multimedia.cx>>> wrote:
> 
>            Henry Lowood wrote:
> 
>                This announcement from IGDA Central:
> 
>                The QOL survey is up.  The link is
>                http://www.igda.org/qol/qol_survey.php   - OR - you can
>         reach it
>                by clicking Survey from : http://www.igda.org/qol/.  
> 
>            Are we supposed to know what QOL means?
> 
>            --       -Mike Melanson
>            _______________________________________________
>            game_preservation mailing list
>            game_preservation at igda.org
>         <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>         <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org
>         <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>>
> 
>            http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> 
> 
> 
> 
>         -- 
>         Devin Monnens
>         www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>         <http://www.deserthat.com>
> 
> 
>         The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> 
> 
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>         _______________________________________________
>         game_preservation mailing list
>         game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>         http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> 
> 
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
> 
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation



_______________________________________________
game_preservation mailing list
game_preservation at igda.org
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation


From mike at multimedia.cx  Thu Sep  3 01:20:01 2009
From: mike at multimedia.cx (Mike Melanson)
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 22:20:01 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] [Fwd: [SIGs-Admin] QOL Survey]
In-Reply-To: <002201ca2c3c$04e16260$0ea42720$@com>
References: <4A9D511A.2010107@stanford.edu>	<4A9DD784.4080202@multimedia.cx>	<9d1cf2d50909012020r16dbb6c3yf7dff4b06d62d2ea@mail.gmail.com>	<4A9E1152.6020200@multimedia.cx>	<9d1cf2d50909020555u79c4fd11hf766a27f878b9f17@mail.gmail.com>	<4A9E796C.50404@multimedia.cx>
	<002201ca2c3c$04e16260$0ea42720$@com>
Message-ID: <4A9F5201.2080301@multimedia.cx>

Yeah, along those lines. :)
-- 
     -Mike Melanson


Stuart Feldhamer wrote:

> What, you work for Adobe? :)
> 
> Stuart
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org
> [mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Mike Melanson
> Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 9:56 AM
> To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] [Fwd: [SIGs-Admin] QOL Survey]
> 
> How about 'I am employed at one of the largest makers of casual game 
> backend engines'?
> 



From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Fri Sep  4 17:22:55 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 22:22:55 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] [Fwd: [SIGs-Admin] QOL Survey]
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909020555u79c4fd11hf766a27f878b9f17@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A9D511A.2010107@stanford.edu>
	<4A9DD784.4080202@multimedia.cx>	<9d1cf2d50909012020r16dbb6c3yf7dff4b06d62d2ea@mail.gmail.com>	<4A9E1152.6020200@multimedia.cx>
	<9d1cf2d50909020555u79c4fd11hf766a27f878b9f17@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA1852F.2010408@aarmstrong.org>

Devin, there is an option for "Trying to get a job" isn't there? That's 
what the draft had anyway.

As for other fields, while it might be nice to group an "other" 
category, as an academic, you might know that'd be a rather full field. :)

Andrew

Devin Monnens wrote:
> Wouldn't it make sense for them to add something to the survey like 'I 
> am employed in a different field' or 'I lost my job in the industry/am 
> trying to get a job in the industry'?
>
> On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Mike Melanson <mike at multimedia.cx 
> <mailto:mike at multimedia.cx>> wrote:
>
>     Heh, I'm going to forward this to someone I know who used to
>     program for the big, sinister Electronic Arts and trigger another
>     fit of pure rage. :)
>
>     -- 
>        -Mike Melanson
>
>
>     Devin Monnens wrote:
>
>         Quality of Living. I can't take this because I'm not employed
>         in the industry. Heck, I'm barely even employed as it is!!
>
>         On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Mike Melanson
>         <mike at multimedia.cx <mailto:mike at multimedia.cx>
>         <mailto:mike at multimedia.cx <mailto:mike at multimedia.cx>>> wrote:
>
>            Henry Lowood wrote:
>
>                This announcement from IGDA Central:
>
>                The QOL survey is up.  The link is
>                http://www.igda.org/qol/qol_survey.php   - OR ? you can
>         reach it
>                by clicking Survey from : http://www.igda.org/qol/.  
>
>            Are we supposed to know what QOL means?
>
>            --       -Mike Melanson
>            _______________________________________________
>            game_preservation mailing list
>            game_preservation at igda.org
>         <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>         <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org
>         <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>>
>
>            http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
>         -- 
>         Devin Monnens
>         www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>         <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
>
>         The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         game_preservation mailing list
>         game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>         http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From dmonnens at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 10:24:59 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 08:24:59 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] Ian Bogost on the 'thingness' of games
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909060724j33dde8e4p9dd7c3f10c150020@mail.gmail.com>

Ian Bogost recently gave a keynote in DiGRA on videogames and ontology. In
it, he argues that videogames may be defined as a multitude of things, from
code to plastics to experiences to cultural phenomena.
http://www.bogost.com/writing/videogames_are_a_mess.shtml

I believe this brings up an interesting question that we've encountered a
few times in our discussions: what is it that we are preserving?

Is this question made any easier to answer once we consider videogames as a
multiplicity of objects? Obviously, not all of these elements are
preservable. Maybe we don't want to preserve some of these elements anyway.
Or maybe this gives us many things we would like to preserve but are unable
to preserve them all.

Can we apply this to a case study, such as the preservation of Doom, by
breaking Doom into a multiplicity of objects?

-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sun Sep  6 11:59:44 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 16:59:44 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Ian Bogost on the 'thingness' of games
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909060724j33dde8e4p9dd7c3f10c150020@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9d1cf2d50909060724j33dde8e4p9dd7c3f10c150020@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA3DC70.9060902@aarmstrong.org>

I mean to post up a report on the IGDA Preservation SIG wiki on our 
presentation at DiGRA actually. For those interested, I made lots of 
notes on the sessions I attended: http://aarmstrong.org/notes/digra-2009

One of the things we discussed between ourselves was, to a point, 
exactly this: a multitude of "questions we dare not ask". I am sure all 
history and preservation people deal with this too (in fact I should try 
and get in contact with some of them to gather consensus from what they 
work on! Perhaps Tom Wooley knows more about this since he works in a 
multimedia museum). Dan Pinchbeck suggested a meeting between everyone 
for a day at one location so things like this could be discussed - he 
might try and get some money to cover people's travel, and it'd be 
awesome to lay out things like this with some discussion.

As for the question "what to preserve" specifically? It's difficult, 
everyone thinks one thing is more important then another. There isn't 
unlimited space (although many places are on a "we'll accept anything of 
given quality we don't have some copies of already" but think in 10 
years or so if that'll be true still). I personally don't know the 
answer, although sometimes you can have a historical record of something 
without the actual item - the record of things with photographs, scans 
and metadata might prove useful for space saving. Volunteer time is 
another big one too - even with the items, it is a choice between what 
to restore, present, research and archive depends on the time you have. 
Some guidelines would be good - beyond the simple "if it is rare/one 
off, it is usually worth preserving", since I'd hope this is mainly 
obvious (depending on the item).

Tetris might be a nice one to do actually for the "multiplicity of 
objects" mainly because DiGRA had a presentation by a (I think non-games 
researcher) on basically "What is Tetris?":

http://aarmstrong.org/notes/digra-2009/evolution-of-the-tetromino-stacking-game-an-historical-design-study-of-tertris

It's interesting because it was an early game, it had direct and 
indirect influences, it has a strange story on the "IP" angle and other 
things too. I got permission to put his paper online so I'll get it on 
the IGDA site at least. Doom is a good choice too, certainly in some 
ways more "limited" - it influenced other things, but no real direct 
copycats and since it wasn't released as long ago there is, 
statistically, less there. The ET example in Ian's keynote again is 
another one - certainly "easier" to determine "what" it is, except that 
"what" changes constantly even for such a one off game.

Also, Ian's keynote went basically *woosh* for most of it, being very 
hard to follow for me personally (them start and middle mainly was the 
problem - the last bit makes sense). It being down on a page is a lot 
easier to follow :)

I'm also infused with energy to get the bibliography work to a point I 
can get a prototype up and running, since the researchers themselves 
admitted they find it hard to find research material - usually, it 
appears by most accounts, it is "find a similar paper, and look at the 
references, then look at those references", and so forth. Not that the 
project is just for research papers of course, but as a mass of content 
in themselves, they're mainly top of the pile.

Andrew

Devin Monnens wrote:
> Ian Bogost recently gave a keynote in DiGRA on videogames and 
> ontology. In it, he argues that videogames may be defined as a 
> multitude of things, from code to plastics to experiences to cultural 
> phenomena.
>
> http://www.bogost.com/writing/videogames_are_a_mess.shtml
>
> I believe this brings up an interesting question that we've 
> encountered a few times in our discussions: what is it that we are 
> preserving?
>
> Is this question made any easier to answer once we consider videogames 
> as a multiplicity of objects? Obviously, not all of these elements are 
> preservable. Maybe we don't want to preserve some of these elements 
> anyway. Or maybe this gives us many things we would like to preserve 
> but are unable to preserve them all.
>
> Can we apply this to a case study, such as the preservation of Doom, 
> by breaking Doom into a multiplicity of objects? 
>
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From dmonnens at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 13:28:42 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 11:28:42 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] Ian Bogost on the 'thingness' of games
In-Reply-To: <4AA3DC70.9060902@aarmstrong.org>
References: <9d1cf2d50909060724j33dde8e4p9dd7c3f10c150020@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA3DC70.9060902@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909061028gc056012gd4d4a21a04d2e02d@mail.gmail.com>

Actually, while we're on the topic, I assume we've got a detailed report on
Videogame Nation in Manchester? The exhibit is closing on the 14th of
September. I just read an article on it in Retro Gamer, and was surprised to
see that many objects in the exhibit had been donated by developers
(including original artwork from Broken Sword donated by Charles Cecil of
Revolution Studios). This was exactly the kind of thing we were talking
about in the White Paper, and I wanted to know if anyone had done a case
study on this to see how the developers were contacted for donations and
what level of value these objects had to the developers themselves and the
reasons why they decided to donate. This could be coupled with analysis of
the Get Lamp project as well as the Wing Commander documentaiton project.
Along the lines of what to preserve, maybe there's two parts - one being
defining what all aspects of a game could be preserved or documented, and
the other being which area does the archive want to focus on. You can't
preserve everything because eventually you have to find a place to focus on.
You can either do a poor job at trying to save lots of things or you can do
a good job specializing in one area. That's my idea at least. Who knows with
digital, but I can certainly see it from the research and analysis side of
things (not all archives are going to have a detailed collection of curated
text adventure game materials).

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

>  I mean to post up a report on the IGDA Preservation SIG wiki on our
> presentation at DiGRA actually. For those interested, I made lots of notes
> on the sessions I attended: http://aarmstrong.org/notes/digra-2009
>
> One of the things we discussed between ourselves was, to a point, exactly
> this: a multitude of "questions we dare not ask". I am sure all history and
> preservation people deal with this too (in fact I should try and get in
> contact with some of them to gather consensus from what they work on!
> Perhaps Tom Wooley knows more about this since he works in a multimedia
> museum). Dan Pinchbeck suggested a meeting between everyone for a day at one
> location so things like this could be discussed - he might try and get some
> money to cover people's travel, and it'd be awesome to lay out things like
> this with some discussion.
>
> As for the question "what to preserve" specifically? It's difficult,
> everyone thinks one thing is more important then another. There isn't
> unlimited space (although many places are on a "we'll accept anything of
> given quality we don't have some copies of already" but think in 10 years or
> so if that'll be true still). I personally don't know the answer, although
> sometimes you can have a historical record of something without the actual
> item - the record of things with photographs, scans and metadata might prove
> useful for space saving. Volunteer time is another big one too - even with
> the items, it is a choice between what to restore, present, research and
> archive depends on the time you have. Some guidelines would be good - beyond
> the simple "if it is rare/one off, it is usually worth preserving", since
> I'd hope this is mainly obvious (depending on the item).
>
> Tetris might be a nice one to do actually for the "multiplicity of objects"
> mainly because DiGRA had a presentation by a (I think non-games researcher)
> on basically "What is Tetris?":
>
>
> http://aarmstrong.org/notes/digra-2009/evolution-of-the-tetromino-stacking-game-an-historical-design-study-of-tertris
>
> It's interesting because it was an early game, it had direct and indirect
> influences, it has a strange story on the "IP" angle and other things too. I
> got permission to put his paper online so I'll get it on the IGDA site at
> least. Doom is a good choice too, certainly in some ways more "limited" - it
> influenced other things, but no real direct copycats and since it wasn't
> released as long ago there is, statistically, less there. The ET example in
> Ian's keynote again is another one - certainly "easier" to determine "what"
> it is, except that "what" changes constantly even for such a one off game.
>
> Also, Ian's keynote went basically *woosh* for most of it, being very hard
> to follow for me personally (them start and middle mainly was the problem -
> the last bit makes sense). It being down on a page is a lot easier to follow
> :)
>
> I'm also infused with energy to get the bibliography work to a point I can
> get a prototype up and running, since the researchers themselves admitted
> they find it hard to find research material - usually, it appears by most
> accounts, it is "find a similar paper, and look at the references, then look
> at those references", and so forth. Not that the project is just for
> research papers of course, but as a mass of content in themselves, they're
> mainly top of the pile.
>
> Andrew
>
> Devin Monnens wrote:
>
> Ian Bogost recently gave a keynote in DiGRA on videogames and ontology. In
> it, he argues that videogames may be defined as a multitude of things, from
> code to plastics to experiences to cultural phenomena.
> http://www.bogost.com/writing/videogames_are_a_mess.shtml
>
>  I believe this brings up an interesting question that we've encountered a
> few times in our discussions: what is it that we are preserving?
>
>  Is this question made any easier to answer once we consider videogames as
> a multiplicity of objects? Obviously, not all of these elements are
> preservable. Maybe we don't want to preserve some of these elements anyway.
> Or maybe this gives us many things we would like to preserve but are unable
> to preserve them all.
>
>  Can we apply this to a case study, such as the preservation of Doom, by
> breaking Doom into a multiplicity of objects?
>
>  --
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>


-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sun Sep  6 14:01:43 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 19:01:43 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Ian Bogost on the 'thingness' of games
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909061028gc056012gd4d4a21a04d2e02d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9d1cf2d50909060724j33dde8e4p9dd7c3f10c150020@mail.gmail.com>	<4AA3DC70.9060902@aarmstrong.org>
	<9d1cf2d50909061028gc056012gd4d4a21a04d2e02d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA3F907.6080201@aarmstrong.org>

I know the person who curated the museum - I can contact him about this 
if you like. I wrote up a report (it's linked to from our preservation 
blog) and yes, along with documenting the archives and projects, 
documenting the exhibitions is something to do :) Might be a good start, 
kind of have a "form" to fill in about it.

As for how he got the stuff - a lot of direct contact AFAIK, which is 
pretty much how you'd do it anyway I'd hazard a guess. As you might 
note, the exhibit didn't have much in the way of "big publisher" things 
donated (sadly!), but a lot of temporary donations by developers. 
Without any real permanent videogame exhibits in museums (or a videogame 
museum as it were), there is little way for companies or developers to 
go to the people running it to ask if they want to run a special exhibit 
or whatever :)

Andrew

Devin Monnens wrote:
> Actually, while we're on the topic, I assume we've got a detailed 
> report on Videogame Nation in Manchester? The exhibit is closing on 
> the 14th of September. I just read an article on it in Retro Gamer, 
> and was surprised to see that many objects in the exhibit had been 
> donated by developers (including original artwork from Broken Sword 
> donated by Charles Cecil of Revolution Studios). This was exactly the 
> kind of thing we were talking about in the White Paper, and I wanted 
> to know if anyone had done a case study on this to see how the 
> developers were contacted for donations and what level of value these 
> objects had to the developers themselves and the reasons why they 
> decided to donate. This could be coupled with analysis of the Get Lamp 
> project as well as the Wing Commander documentaiton project.
>
> Along the lines of what to preserve, maybe there's two parts - one 
> being defining what all aspects of a game could be preserved or 
> documented, and the other being which area does the archive want to 
> focus on. You can't preserve everything because eventually you have to 
> find a place to focus on. You can either do a poor job at trying to 
> save lots of things or you can do a good job specializing in one area. 
> That's my idea at least. Who knows with digital, but I can certainly 
> see it from the research and analysis side of things (not all archives 
> are going to have a detailed collection of curated text adventure game 
> materials).
>
> On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Andrew Armstrong 
> <andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>> wrote:
>
>     I mean to post up a report on the IGDA Preservation SIG wiki on
>     our presentation at DiGRA actually. For those interested, I made
>     lots of notes on the sessions I attended:
>     http://aarmstrong.org/notes/digra-2009
>
>     One of the things we discussed between ourselves was, to a point,
>     exactly this: a multitude of "questions we dare not ask". I am
>     sure all history and preservation people deal with this too (in
>     fact I should try and get in contact with some of them to gather
>     consensus from what they work on! Perhaps Tom Wooley knows more
>     about this since he works in a multimedia museum). Dan Pinchbeck
>     suggested a meeting between everyone for a day at one location so
>     things like this could be discussed - he might try and get some
>     money to cover people's travel, and it'd be awesome to lay out
>     things like this with some discussion.
>
>     As for the question "what to preserve" specifically? It's
>     difficult, everyone thinks one thing is more important then
>     another. There isn't unlimited space (although many places are on
>     a "we'll accept anything of given quality we don't have some
>     copies of already" but think in 10 years or so if that'll be true
>     still). I personally don't know the answer, although sometimes you
>     can have a historical record of something without the actual item
>     - the record of things with photographs, scans and metadata might
>     prove useful for space saving. Volunteer time is another big one
>     too - even with the items, it is a choice between what to restore,
>     present, research and archive depends on the time you have. Some
>     guidelines would be good - beyond the simple "if it is rare/one
>     off, it is usually worth preserving", since I'd hope this is
>     mainly obvious (depending on the item).
>
>     Tetris might be a nice one to do actually for the "multiplicity of
>     objects" mainly because DiGRA had a presentation by a (I think
>     non-games researcher) on basically "What is Tetris?":
>
>     http://aarmstrong.org/notes/digra-2009/evolution-of-the-tetromino-stacking-game-an-historical-design-study-of-tertris
>
>     It's interesting because it was an early game, it had direct and
>     indirect influences, it has a strange story on the "IP" angle and
>     other things too. I got permission to put his paper online so I'll
>     get it on the IGDA site at least. Doom is a good choice too,
>     certainly in some ways more "limited" - it influenced other
>     things, but no real direct copycats and since it wasn't released
>     as long ago there is, statistically, less there. The ET example in
>     Ian's keynote again is another one - certainly "easier" to
>     determine "what" it is, except that "what" changes constantly even
>     for such a one off game.
>
>     Also, Ian's keynote went basically *woosh* for most of it, being
>     very hard to follow for me personally (them start and middle
>     mainly was the problem - the last bit makes sense). It being down
>     on a page is a lot easier to follow :)
>
>     I'm also infused with energy to get the bibliography work to a
>     point I can get a prototype up and running, since the researchers
>     themselves admitted they find it hard to find research material -
>     usually, it appears by most accounts, it is "find a similar paper,
>     and look at the references, then look at those references", and so
>     forth. Not that the project is just for research papers of course,
>     but as a mass of content in themselves, they're mainly top of the
>     pile.
>
>     Andrew
>
>     Devin Monnens wrote:
>>     Ian Bogost recently gave a keynote in DiGRA on videogames and
>>     ontology. In it, he argues that videogames may be defined as a
>>     multitude of things, from code to plastics to experiences to
>>     cultural phenomena.
>>
>>     http://www.bogost.com/writing/videogames_are_a_mess.shtml
>>
>>     I believe this brings up an interesting question that we've
>>     encountered a few times in our discussions: what is it that we
>>     are preserving?
>>
>>     Is this question made any easier to answer once we consider
>>     videogames as a multiplicity of objects? Obviously, not all of
>>     these elements are preservable. Maybe we don't want to preserve
>>     some of these elements anyway. Or maybe this gives us many things
>>     we would like to preserve but are unable to preserve them all.
>>
>>     Can we apply this to a case study, such as the preservation of
>>     Doom, by breaking Doom into a multiplicity of objects? 
>>
>>     -- 
>>     Devin Monnens
>>     www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>>
>>     The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>       
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From lowood at stanford.edu  Sun Sep  6 21:53:24 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 18:53:24 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Ian Bogost on the 'thingness' of games
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909060724j33dde8e4p9dd7c3f10c150020@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9d1cf2d50909060724j33dde8e4p9dd7c3f10c150020@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA46794.2020902@stanford.edu>

Devin,

that's what we are doing.  In fact, I'm working on the manifest this 
weekend.   It is not final, as the project still has some months to run, 
but I will try to remember to share it with this group, probably around 
the middle of next week.

Henry

Devin Monnens wrote:
> Ian Bogost recently gave a keynote in DiGRA on videogames and 
> ontology. In it, he argues that videogames may be defined as a 
> multitude of things, from code to plastics to experiences to cultural 
> phenomena.
>
> http://www.bogost.com/writing/videogames_are_a_mess.shtml
>
> I believe this brings up an interesting question that we've 
> encountered a few times in our discussions: what is it that we are 
> preserving?
>
> Is this question made any easier to answer once we consider videogames 
> as a multiplicity of objects? Obviously, not all of these elements are 
> preservable. Maybe we don't want to preserve some of these elements 
> anyway. Or maybe this gives us many things we would like to preserve 
> but are unable to preserve them all.
>
> Can we apply this to a case study, such as the preservation of Doom, 
> by breaking Doom into a multiplicity of objects? 
>
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

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From lowood at stanford.edu  Tue Sep  8 02:46:35 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 23:46:35 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
Message-ID: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu>

Attached please find the first draft of the DOOM manifest for Preserving 
Virtual Worlds.  This is a manifest for the files that will be in the 
Bag-it "bag."  (some will be fetched from Internet Archive copies)

The content section is pretty much done.  I welcome comments/suggestions 
esp. about the contextual materials.

Henry

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

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From dmonnens at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 10:09:44 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 08:09:44 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
In-Reply-To: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu>
References: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909080709q1cda3687yc5f618723fd9de03@mail.gmail.com>

Nice overview, Henry. So you will have a large collection of mods? What
about the Marine DOOM mod? For others...
Is the video collection including Grooveraider's DOOM debut video?
Doom performance by actors of
Mo...<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYB7-ZgGrfU&feature=channel_page>

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYB7-ZgGrfU&feature=channel_page>Also, I
picked up a zip containing midis from DOOM. I assume you knew about these?
(Maybe I heard it on this list first...) This is from John Romero's website:

http://rome.ro/2007/06/doom-archaeology.html

Interesting enough, I also have a collection of Warcraft II midis, but I
think you can get these off the game disc.

Also, there was the soundtrack CD:

http://vgmdb.net/album/2950

Lastly, a nice bibliography of materials talking about DOOM could be added
(such as Dungeons and Dreamers and Masters of DOOM). You also can't wrench
DOOM from its context of violent games.

The biggest question is I'm not sure based on the documentation what the
scope of the DOOM collection is or why these particular elements were chosen
(and why some elements were not included). There will be a writeup on this?

-Devin

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 12:46 AM, Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu> wrote:

>  Attached please find the first draft of the DOOM manifest for Preserving
> Virtual Worlds.  This is a manifest for the files that will be in the Bag-it
> "bag."  (some will be fetched from Internet Archive copies)
>
> The content section is pretty much done.  I welcome comments/suggestions
> esp. about the contextual materials.
>
> Henry
>
> --
> Henry Lowood
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>      Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library
> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USAhttp://www.stanford.edu/~lowoodlowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>


-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From lowood at stanford.edu  Tue Sep  8 12:45:09 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 09:45:09 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909080709q1cda3687yc5f618723fd9de03@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu>
	<9d1cf2d50909080709q1cda3687yc5f618723fd9de03@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA68A15.9080509@stanford.edu>

Devin,

It's not a comprehensive DOOM collection.  The idea is to provide 
context information that will be helpful for installing the software, 
verifying the installation, and playing/using the game.   In the case of 
DOOM, we reach the point where the software is as much a technology 
platform (for mods, map-building, demos, speedruns, even some machinima) 
as a stand-alone game (see Lev Manovich on this). 

Thus, the few included replays, demos, machinima, mods, etc. represent a 
sampling, only a tiny one in the case of maps, mods and demos. But I did 
want to include a little bit of everything, as far as how the game was used.

I'm all ears, but I don't really see how live performance would function 
as context in this sense.  We have separate gameplay video and 
performance collections at the Internet Archive that could serve as 
collection points for those.   (By the way, your link led to a Mortal 
Kombat performance.)

The music from Romero's website is, as I understand it, not the same as 
the released music.   So, two responses here: (1) How would these midi 
files provide context for the game software?  Maybe as background on the 
development process?  (2) We are also archiving websites separately as 
part of an archive-it project (Internet Archive), and we have include 
John Romero's site, so the page is archived there.  I'm on the fence 
here.  Further thoughts?

As for the soundtrack CD, I suppose it might function as a check for the 
game audio.   Actually, audio is probably the trickiest aspect of 
emulation.  That seems to be what the testing (which RPI is doing) 
shows.  A problem here is that CD you refer to does not seem to be 
licensed by id Software; how would we get permission to archive it?  
Another problem is that this does not appear to be a complete 
soundtrack, only selected maps.  Or is it?  Do you know of a collection 
of all the music?  Something like this arrangement
http://www.sirgalahad.org/paul/doom/
Except that we would want to be able to verify the source as being the 
game itself.   With MIDI, of course, it's a little tricky. 
So maybe this one?
http://www.doomworld.com/classicdoom/info/music.php (which is archived: 
http://web.archive.org/web/20071014012004/http://www.doomworld.com/classicdoom/info/music.php)
I verified that the music files are included.
So I think I am going to add the doomworld music collection to the next 
version of the manifest.

It's not a research project on DOOM, so we will not create a 
bibliography, but if there is one readily available on-line, yes, we 
could include that.  I have not seen anything that is particularly 
detailed; for example, there are as many as a dozen books on DOOM maps, 
modding, hacking, etc., which would be very useful for setting up the 
game in the future, but these are not generally included in 
bibliographies.  If you can point to something on-line, we could include it.

Henry





Devin Monnens wrote:
> Nice overview, Henry. So you will have a large collection of mods? 
> What about the Marine DOOM mod? For others...
>
> Is the video collection including Grooveraider's DOOM debut video?
>
> Doom performance by actors of Mo... 
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYB7-ZgGrfU&feature=channel_page>
>
> Also, I picked up a zip containing midis from DOOM. I assume you knew 
> about these? (Maybe I heard it on this list 
> first...) This is from John Romero's website:
>
> http://rome.ro/2007/06/doom-archaeology.html
>
> Interesting enough, I also have a collection of Warcraft II midis, but 
> I think you can get these off the game disc.
>
> Also, there was the soundtrack CD:
>
> http://vgmdb.net/album/2950
>
> Lastly, a nice bibliography of materials talking about DOOM could be 
> added (such as Dungeons and Dreamers and Masters of DOOM). You also 
> can't wrench DOOM from its context of violent games.
>
> The biggest question is I'm not sure based on the documentation what 
> the scope of the DOOM collection is or why these particular elements 
> were chosen (and why some elements were not included). There will be a 
> writeup on this?
>
> -Devin
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 12:46 AM, Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu 
> <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>> wrote:
>
>     Attached please find the first draft of the DOOM manifest for
>     Preserving Virtual Worlds.  This is a manifest for the files that
>     will be in the Bag-it "bag."  (some will be fetched from Internet
>     Archive copies)
>
>     The content section is pretty much done.  I welcome
>     comments/suggestions esp. about the contextual materials.
>
>     Henry
>
>     -- 
>     Henry Lowood
>     Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>          Film & Media Collections
>     HRG, Green Library
>     557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
>     Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
>     http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>     lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>; 650-723-4602
>         
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
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From dmonnens at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 14:09:53 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 12:09:53 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
In-Reply-To: <4AA68A15.9080509@stanford.edu>
References: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu>
	<9d1cf2d50909080709q1cda3687yc5f618723fd9de03@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA68A15.9080509@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909081109v4bf33aeas67a692f1317f69be@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, that makes sense. This is an archive for getting the game to play
properly.
The MIDI files are beta tracks. They have context on John Romero's page.
They can shed light into the audio development of the game.

The CD, as you mention it, is not owned by id. However, you can use mp3s or
other audio files generated from recordings you mentioned to test the audio
based on how the midis should sound, but a better emulation test (such as a
numerical output from a uvc-type device, for instance) would verify whether
the audio is playing properly. Midi is a pain to emulate because they use
different sound libraries for each track. Even though we have hardware that
is much better than in 1997, I can't play the Warcraft II midis and have
them sound exactly as they did 10 years ago, for instance, because I don't
have the proper sound libraries. The Konami MIDI Power Pro albums also have
this same issue - they included floppy disks with the actual midi files on
them, but it would not be easily possible to get them to run the same as
they sound on the album:

http://vgmdb.net/album/1276

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:45 AM, Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu> wrote:

>  Devin,
>
> It's not a comprehensive DOOM collection.  The idea is to provide context
> information that will be helpful for installing the software, verifying the
> installation, and playing/using the game.   In the case of DOOM, we reach
> the point where the software is as much a technology platform (for mods,
> map-building, demos, speedruns, even some machinima) as a stand-alone game
> (see Lev Manovich on this).
>
> Thus, the few included replays, demos, machinima, mods, etc. represent a
> sampling, only a tiny one in the case of maps, mods and demos. But I did
> want to include a little bit of everything, as far as how the game was used.
>
> I'm all ears, but I don't really see how live performance would function as
> context in this sense.  We have separate gameplay video and performance
> collections at the Internet Archive that could serve as collection points
> for those.   (By the way, your link led to a Mortal Kombat performance.)
>
> The music from Romero's website is, as I understand it, not the same as the
> released music.   So, two responses here: (1) How would these midi files
> provide context for the game software?  Maybe as background on the
> development process?  (2) We are also archiving websites separately as part
> of an archive-it project (Internet Archive), and we have include John
> Romero's site, so the page is archived there.  I'm on the fence here.
> Further thoughts?
>
> As for the soundtrack CD, I suppose it might function as a check for the
> game audio.   Actually, audio is probably the trickiest aspect of
> emulation.  That seems to be what the testing (which RPI is doing) shows.  A
> problem here is that CD you refer to does not seem to be licensed by id
> Software; how would we get permission to archive it?  Another problem is
> that this does not appear to be a complete soundtrack, only selected maps.
> Or is it?  Do you know of a collection of all the music?  Something like
> this arrangement
> http://www.sirgalahad.org/paul/doom/
> Except that we would want to be able to verify the source as being the game
> itself.   With MIDI, of course, it's a little tricky.
> So maybe this one?
> http://www.doomworld.com/classicdoom/info/music.php (which is archived:
> http://web.archive.org/web/20071014012004/http://www.doomworld.com/classicdoom/info/music.php
> )
> I verified that the music files are included.
> So I think I am going to add the doomworld music collection to the next
> version of the manifest.
>
> It's not a research project on DOOM, so we will not create a bibliography,
> but if there is one readily available on-line, yes, we could include that.
> I have not seen anything that is particularly detailed; for example, there
> are as many as a dozen books on DOOM maps, modding, hacking, etc., which
> would be very useful for setting up the game in the future, but these are
> not generally included in bibliographies.  If you can point to something
> on-line, we could include it.
>
> Henry
>
>
>
>
>
> Devin Monnens wrote:
>
> Nice overview, Henry. So you will have a large collection of mods? What
> about the Marine DOOM mod? For others...
>  Is the video collection including Grooveraider's DOOM debut video?
>  Doom performance by actors of Mo...<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYB7-ZgGrfU&feature=channel_page>
>
>  Also, I picked up a zip containing midis from DOOM. I assume you knew
> about these? (Maybe I heard it on this list
> first...) This is from John Romero's website:
>
>  http://rome.ro/2007/06/doom-archaeology.html
>
>  Interesting enough, I also have a collection of Warcraft II midis, but I
> think you can get these off the game disc.
>
>  Also, there was the soundtrack CD:
>
>  http://vgmdb.net/album/2950
>
>  Lastly, a nice bibliography of materials talking about DOOM could be
> added (such as Dungeons and Dreamers and Masters of DOOM). You also can't
> wrench DOOM from its context of violent games.
>
>  The biggest question is I'm not sure based on the documentation what the
> scope of the DOOM collection is or why these particular elements were chosen
> (and why some elements were not included). There will be a writeup on this?
>
>  -Devin
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 12:46 AM, Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>> Attached please find the first draft of the DOOM manifest for Preserving
>> Virtual Worlds.  This is a manifest for the files that will be in the Bag-it
>> "bag."  (some will be fetched from Internet Archive copies)
>>
>> The content section is pretty much done.  I welcome comments/suggestions
>> esp. about the contextual materials.
>>
>> Henry
>>
>> --
>> Henry Lowood
>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>      Film & Media Collections
>> HRG, Green Library
>> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
>> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USAhttp://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> --
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>  Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>


-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From lowood at stanford.edu  Tue Sep 15 12:15:43 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:15:43 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] =?utf-8?q?=5BFwd=3A_IGDA_Leadership_Forum_200?=
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Message-ID: <4AAFBDAF.5060803@stanford.edu>

FYI, Henry

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-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Wed Sep 16 13:59:40 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:59:40 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
In-Reply-To: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu>
References: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <4AB1278C.3020809@aarmstrong.org>

I finally got some time to check this out, apart from it's DOCX, and 
darn shucks if I don't own that particular bit of software. Can anyone 
whip up a ODT or DOC version? :) I am interested in reading it.

(Proprietary formats for documentation of preservation practices, let's 
not even get into that argument/minefield, hehe).

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> Attached please find the first draft of the DOOM manifest for 
> Preserving Virtual Worlds.  This is a manifest for the files that will 
> be in the Bag-it "bag."  (some will be fetched from Internet Archive 
> copies)
>
> The content section is pretty much done.  I welcome 
> comments/suggestions esp. about the contextual materials.
>
> Henry
> -- 
> Henry Lowood
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>      Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library
> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
> lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From lowood at stanford.edu  Wed Sep 16 14:10:53 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 11:10:53 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
In-Reply-To: <4AB1278C.3020809@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu> <4AB1278C.3020809@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <4AB12A2D.1000200@stanford.edu>

For rough-and-ready file conversion (more ready than rough):
http://www.zamzar.com/

Henry

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> I finally got some time to check this out, apart from it's DOCX, and 
> darn shucks if I don't own that particular bit of software. Can anyone 
> whip up a ODT or DOC version? :) I am interested in reading it.
>
> (Proprietary formats for documentation of preservation practices, 
> let's not even get into that argument/minefield, hehe).
>
> Andrew
>
> Henry Lowood wrote:
>> Attached please find the first draft of the DOOM manifest for 
>> Preserving Virtual Worlds.  This is a manifest for the files that 
>> will be in the Bag-it "bag."  (some will be fetched from Internet 
>> Archive copies)
>>
>> The content section is pretty much done.  I welcome 
>> comments/suggestions esp. about the contextual materials.
>>
>> Henry
>> -- 
>> Henry Lowood
>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>      Film & Media Collections
>> HRG, Green Library
>> 557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
>> Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
>> http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
>> lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602
>>   
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
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From aau at alum.mit.edu  Wed Sep 16 18:09:17 2009
From: aau at alum.mit.edu (Alan Au)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 22:09:17 +0000
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
In-Reply-To: <4AB1278C.3020809@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu> <4AB1278C.3020809@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <SNT110-W11D481744CE25512F461A5BAE20@phx.gbl>


Microsoft released a compatibility tool a while back:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en

- Alan

________________________________
> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:59:40 +0100
> From: andrew at aarmstrong.org
> To: game_preservation at igda.org
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
>
> I finally got some time to check this out, apart from it's DOCX, and
> darn shucks if I don't own that particular bit of software. Can anyone
> whip up a ODT or DOC version? :) I am interested in reading it.
>
> (Proprietary formats for documentation of preservation practices, let's
> not even get into that argument/minefield, hehe).
>
> Andrew


_________________________________________________________________
Bing brings you health info from trusted sources.
http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1

From dmonnens at gmail.com  Wed Sep 16 21:00:13 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 19:00:13 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
In-Reply-To: <SNT110-W11D481744CE25512F461A5BAE20@phx.gbl>
References: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu> <4AB1278C.3020809@aarmstrong.org>
	<SNT110-W11D481744CE25512F461A5BAE20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909161800t6826fd0cv1b8a3fce36c5d08c@mail.gmail.com>

The latest Open Office seems to have .docx support. But I still refuse to
save anything in that format. This format shift has caused nothing but
troubles. I don't even see how it is supposedly 'better' than the old
version. I have enough trouble trying to teach students how to use the new
Office without having to describe to them how to 'save as' a document (yes,
this is rocket science to them).
-Devin

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Alan Au <aau at alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>
> Microsoft released a compatibility tool a while back:
>
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en
>
> - Alan
>
> ________________________________
> > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:59:40 +0100
> > From: andrew at aarmstrong.org
> > To: game_preservation at igda.org
> > Subject: Re: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
> >
> > I finally got some time to check this out, apart from it's DOCX, and
> > darn shucks if I don't own that particular bit of software. Can anyone
> > whip up a ODT or DOC version? :) I am interested in reading it.
> >
> > (Proprietary formats for documentation of preservation practices, let's
> > not even get into that argument/minefield, hehe).
> >
> > Andrew
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Bing brings you health info from trusted sources.
>
> http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>



-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Thu Sep 17 11:49:06 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 16:49:06 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909161800t6826fd0cv1b8a3fce36c5d08c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu>
	<4AB1278C.3020809@aarmstrong.org>	<SNT110-W11D481744CE25512F461A5BAE20@phx.gbl>
	<9d1cf2d50909161800t6826fd0cv1b8a3fce36c5d08c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AB25A72.2040709@aarmstrong.org>

Thanks for the advice, I did open it in Open Office but sometimes, well, 
things do get mangled (whatever Microsoft format it is, mind you). It's 
pretty basic text though, hooray :D I'm tempted to put it on the wiki :)

I liked reading the manifest. Covers all the areas I can think of except 
I guess technical documentation and tutorials for how to build levels 
for the game are kind of missing (so both technical documentation on the 
game, and how to build things for the game). Not needed for getting to 
know the game though.

A very good example, certainly since it contains everything that would 
be needed to literally install and play the game, with some good 
important background pieces too.

Andrew

Devin Monnens wrote:
> The latest Open Office seems to have .docx support. But I still refuse 
> to save anything in that format. This format shift has caused nothing 
> but troubles. I don't even see how it is supposedly 'better' than the 
> old version. I have enough trouble trying to teach students how to use 
> the new Office without having to describe to them how to 'save as' a 
> document (yes, this is rocket science to them).
>
> -Devin
>
> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Alan Au <aau at alum.mit.edu 
> <mailto:aau at alum.mit.edu>> wrote:
>
>
>     Microsoft released a compatibility tool a while back:
>
>     http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en
>     <http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en>
>
>     - Alan
>
>     ________________________________
>     > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:59:40 +0100
>     > From: andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>
>     > To: game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     > Subject: Re: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
>     >
>     > I finally got some time to check this out, apart from it's DOCX, and
>     > darn shucks if I don't own that particular bit of software. Can
>     anyone
>     > whip up a ODT or DOC version? :) I am interested in reading it.
>     >
>     > (Proprietary formats for documentation of preservation
>     practices, let's
>     > not even get into that argument/minefield, hehe).
>     >
>     > Andrew
>
>
>     _________________________________________________________________
>     Bing brings you health info from trusted sources.
>     http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1
>     <http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1>
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From lowood at stanford.edu  Thu Sep 17 12:57:28 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:57:28 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
In-Reply-To: <4AB25A72.2040709@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu>	<4AB1278C.3020809@aarmstrong.org>	<SNT110-W11D481744CE25512F461A5BAE20@phx.gbl>	<9d1cf2d50909161800t6826fd0cv1b8a3fce36c5d08c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB25A72.2040709@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <4AB26A78.2000604@stanford.edu>

Andrew,

I think you were kidding, but just in case: Please don't put it on the 
wiki.  It's a draft for comments.   When all is said and done, we'll 
have all the documentation up on our project wiki, at which point it 
will be available for all sorts of pointing and clicking.

On maps/levels in the manifest (at that time, the terms were in flux). 
Since this version, the one document I have added is Forsman & 
Kremeier's classic piece on BSP and DOOM rendering, plus there is the 
Q&A on editing.  But you're right, a tutorial on map/level design would 
be nice.  If anyone wants to suggest a good document on that topic, I'll 
consider including it.

Another point is that there is a fair-sized library of printed books on 
that subject, which we can hope will still be available 100 years from now.

Henry

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> Thanks for the advice, I did open it in Open Office but sometimes, 
> well, things do get mangled (whatever Microsoft format it is, mind 
> you). It's pretty basic text though, hooray :D I'm tempted to put it 
> on the wiki :)
>
> I liked reading the manifest. Covers all the areas I can think of 
> except I guess technical documentation and tutorials for how to build 
> levels for the game are kind of missing (so both technical 
> documentation on the game, and how to build things for the game). Not 
> needed for getting to know the game though.
>
> A very good example, certainly since it contains everything that would 
> be needed to literally install and play the game, with some good 
> important background pieces too.
>
> Andrew
>
> Devin Monnens wrote:
>> The latest Open Office seems to have .docx support. But I still 
>> refuse to save anything in that format. This format shift has caused 
>> nothing but troubles. I don't even see how it is supposedly 'better' 
>> than the old version. I have enough trouble trying to teach students 
>> how to use the new Office without having to describe to them how to 
>> 'save as' a document (yes, this is rocket science to them).
>>
>> -Devin
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Alan Au <aau at alum.mit.edu 
>> <mailto:aau at alum.mit.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>     Microsoft released a compatibility tool a while back:
>>
>>     http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en
>>     <http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en>
>>
>>     - Alan
>>
>>     ________________________________
>>     > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:59:40 +0100
>>     > From: andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>
>>     > To: game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>     > Subject: Re: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
>>     >
>>     > I finally got some time to check this out, apart from it's
>>     DOCX, and
>>     > darn shucks if I don't own that particular bit of software. Can
>>     anyone
>>     > whip up a ODT or DOC version? :) I am interested in reading it.
>>     >
>>     > (Proprietary formats for documentation of preservation
>>     practices, let's
>>     > not even get into that argument/minefield, hehe).
>>     >
>>     > Andrew
>>
>>
>>     _________________________________________________________________
>>     Bing brings you health info from trusted sources.
>>     http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1
>>     <http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Devin Monnens
>> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>>
>> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Thu Sep 17 13:33:24 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:33:24 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
In-Reply-To: <4AB26A78.2000604@stanford.edu>
References: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu>	<4AB1278C.3020809@aarmstrong.org>	<SNT110-W11D481744CE25512F461A5BAE20@phx.gbl>	<9d1cf2d50909161800t6826fd0cv1b8a3fce36c5d08c@mail.gmail.com>	<4AB25A72.2040709@aarmstrong.org>
	<4AB26A78.2000604@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <4AB272E4.6060200@aarmstrong.org>

Yeah, I was joking about the wiki, it's your document, hehe - you said 
you have a wiki ;) perfect application unless you've got a good 
relational database for processing entries like that :)

I've got no documents myself on doom level editing - I dabbled a little 
in it but that was, wow, years ago now, sorry. I'll leave it to someone 
else to know of a good one, I am sure someone else on this list would 
have a clue. I wonder if any of the DOOM books are related to level 
editing directly. There I know there is a few on just DOOM itself - I 
still need to read Masters of Doom, going to borrow it off a friend 
sometime (who ranted it was a great book himself, popular one that :) hehe).

A few things if you want more comments - for the web links, perhaps 
there should be secondary links to Archive-It copies of the resources 
linked to directly (unless the implication is you have local copies 
downloaded of them) - most of them are Archive-It or Wayback but a few 
are just direct links at least (classic doom links, some mobygames, 
planetdoom...). It seems more a mistake not having them - thus I guess 
it's a standard practice to get an Archive-It copy to add it to a manifest?

Another thing is dates. Is it worth in a manifest listing the dates 
items were either created or posted, or when they were looked at on the 
internet? Most do have wayback implicit dates mind you, and in a list 
that might not be appropriate I guess :)

Finally - I just wondered, probably slightly related, but I guess there 
is no cause for concern having items like the DOOM manual basically in a 
manifest - ie; I presume a user-scanned copy of it (or maybe off the CD 
versions?). For other games, links to unofficial translations for ROM 
files, or emulation programs necessary to run something, etc. always 
might need to be added, no problems there I hope - I've no idea what the 
range of things the manifest should have in it is of course, or what 
reasons there might be to not add anything (apart from the obvious "you 
can't fit everything in, and not everything is of the same importance").

I also did thoroughly re-read it just now - you've got an error for 
"MobyGames entry  for Ultimate DOOM" copies the link from the above entry.

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> Andrew,
>
> I think you were kidding, but just in case: Please don't put it on the 
> wiki.  It's a draft for comments.   When all is said and done, we'll 
> have all the documentation up on our project wiki, at which point it 
> will be available for all sorts of pointing and clicking.
>
> On maps/levels in the manifest (at that time, the terms were in flux). 
> Since this version, the one document I have added is Forsman & 
> Kremeier's classic piece on BSP and DOOM rendering, plus there is the 
> Q&A on editing.  But you're right, a tutorial on map/level design 
> would be nice.  If anyone wants to suggest a good document on that 
> topic, I'll consider including it.
>
> Another point is that there is a fair-sized library of printed books 
> on that subject, which we can hope will still be available 100 years 
> from now.
>
> Henry
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>> Thanks for the advice, I did open it in Open Office but sometimes, 
>> well, things do get mangled (whatever Microsoft format it is, mind 
>> you). It's pretty basic text though, hooray :D I'm tempted to put it 
>> on the wiki :)
>>
>> I liked reading the manifest. Covers all the areas I can think of 
>> except I guess technical documentation and tutorials for how to build 
>> levels for the game are kind of missing (so both technical 
>> documentation on the game, and how to build things for the game). Not 
>> needed for getting to know the game though.
>>
>> A very good example, certainly since it contains everything that 
>> would be needed to literally install and play the game, with some 
>> good important background pieces too.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Devin Monnens wrote:
>>> The latest Open Office seems to have .docx support. But I still 
>>> refuse to save anything in that format. This format shift has caused 
>>> nothing but troubles. I don't even see how it is supposedly 'better' 
>>> than the old version. I have enough trouble trying to teach students 
>>> how to use the new Office without having to describe to them how to 
>>> 'save as' a document (yes, this is rocket science to them).
>>>
>>> -Devin
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Alan Au <aau at alum.mit.edu 
>>> <mailto:aau at alum.mit.edu>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>     Microsoft released a compatibility tool a while back:
>>>
>>>     http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en
>>>     <http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en>
>>>
>>>     - Alan
>>>
>>>     ________________________________
>>>     > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:59:40 +0100
>>>     > From: andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>
>>>     > To: game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>>     > Subject: Re: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
>>>     >
>>>     > I finally got some time to check this out, apart from it's
>>>     DOCX, and
>>>     > darn shucks if I don't own that particular bit of software.
>>>     Can anyone
>>>     > whip up a ODT or DOC version? :) I am interested in reading it.
>>>     >
>>>     > (Proprietary formats for documentation of preservation
>>>     practices, let's
>>>     > not even get into that argument/minefield, hehe).
>>>     >
>>>     > Andrew
>>>
>>>
>>>     _________________________________________________________________
>>>     Bing brings you health info from trusted sources.
>>>     http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1
>>>     <http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Devin Monnens
>>> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>>>
>>> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>   
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
>
> -- 
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>  Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From lowood at stanford.edu  Thu Sep 17 13:58:22 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 10:58:22 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
In-Reply-To: <4AB272E4.6060200@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu>	<4AB1278C.3020809@aarmstrong.org>	<SNT110-W11D481744CE25512F461A5BAE20@phx.gbl>	<9d1cf2d50909161800t6826fd0cv1b8a3fce36c5d08c@mail.gmail.com>	<4AB25A72.2040709@aarmstrong.org>	<4AB26A78.2000604@stanford.edu>
	<4AB272E4.6060200@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <4AB278BE.3080702@stanford.edu>

Andrew,

1. On the books.  There are plenty of books on DOOM level editing and 
programming.  Trust me -- I still have a nice vertical pile of them on 
the floor of my office at home.  I won't say how high ...

2. On the web links. We do have local copies for the sites we crawled as 
part of our site.  If you look closely and know how Archive-It builds 
its links, you can tell which are normal crawls and which are ours.   I 
would say it's about 50-50.

3. Also on the links, the reason for the live links is robots.txt blocks 
on crawls.  Classic Doom, for example. I have no idea why.  Some day 
when I have time, I will write to them and ask them to open it up.  Yes, 
whenever possible, I would point to an Archive-It or Wayback Machine 
crawled version.

4. Dates in the manifest. Actually, the manifest is not even required 
for the Bag (we are using Bag-It for the file transfers).  Our guru in 
all things metadata/schemes is Jerome McDonough, who is on the list, and 
he puts a ton of effort into mapping relationships and all that.  My 
perspective as a curator here in the archivist role is that some sort of 
human-readable manifest belonged in the bag, so I just put it there.   
It is not typical to do so, as far as I know.   I thought about dates, 
but this leads to another issue, which is that these documents as 
standing alone here are really out of context.  So, my feeling is that 
if there is a date on the document, that should suffice.   A propos, 
keep in mind that the documents here that are not actually DOOM are 
included as "context" for DOOM.  Again, it's not a research project or 
even a collection, really.  After the bags are delivered to the digital 
repository, we have the option of presenting the material in a different 
way.

5. In the last question, did you mean a problem as in a legal problem?   
We asked id for permission to do this, and we got it.

6.  Thanks for catching the error.

Henry



Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> Yeah, I was joking about the wiki, it's your document, hehe - you said 
> you have a wiki ;) perfect application unless you've got a good 
> relational database for processing entries like that :)
>
> I've got no documents myself on doom level editing - I dabbled a 
> little in it but that was, wow, years ago now, sorry. I'll leave it to 
> someone else to know of a good one, I am sure someone else on this 
> list would have a clue. I wonder if any of the DOOM books are related 
> to level editing directly. There I know there is a few on just DOOM 
> itself - I still need to read Masters of Doom, going to borrow it off 
> a friend sometime (who ranted it was a great book himself, popular one 
> that :) hehe).
>
> A few things if you want more comments - for the web links, perhaps 
> there should be secondary links to Archive-It copies of the resources 
> linked to directly (unless the implication is you have local copies 
> downloaded of them) - most of them are Archive-It or Wayback but a few 
> are just direct links at least (classic doom links, some mobygames, 
> planetdoom...). It seems more a mistake not having them - thus I guess 
> it's a standard practice to get an Archive-It copy to add it to a 
> manifest?
>
> Another thing is dates. Is it worth in a manifest listing the dates 
> items were either created or posted, or when they were looked at on 
> the internet? Most do have wayback implicit dates mind you, and in a 
> list that might not be appropriate I guess :)
>
> Finally - I just wondered, probably slightly related, but I guess 
> there is no cause for concern having items like the DOOM manual 
> basically in a manifest - ie; I presume a user-scanned copy of it (or 
> maybe off the CD versions?). For other games, links to unofficial 
> translations for ROM files, or emulation programs necessary to run 
> something, etc. always might need to be added, no problems there I 
> hope - I've no idea what the range of things the manifest should have 
> in it is of course, or what reasons there might be to not add anything 
> (apart from the obvious "you can't fit everything in, and not 
> everything is of the same importance").
>
> I also did thoroughly re-read it just now - you've got an error for 
> "MobyGames entry  for Ultimate DOOM" copies the link from the above entry.
>
> Andrew
>
> Henry Lowood wrote:
>> Andrew,
>>
>> I think you were kidding, but just in case: Please don't put it on 
>> the wiki.  It's a draft for comments.   When all is said and done, 
>> we'll have all the documentation up on our project wiki, at which 
>> point it will be available for all sorts of pointing and clicking.
>>
>> On maps/levels in the manifest (at that time, the terms were in 
>> flux). Since this version, the one document I have added is Forsman & 
>> Kremeier's classic piece on BSP and DOOM rendering, plus there is the 
>> Q&A on editing.  But you're right, a tutorial on map/level design 
>> would be nice.  If anyone wants to suggest a good document on that 
>> topic, I'll consider including it.
>>
>> Another point is that there is a fair-sized library of printed books 
>> on that subject, which we can hope will still be available 100 years 
>> from now.
>>
>> Henry
>>
>> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>> Thanks for the advice, I did open it in Open Office but sometimes, 
>>> well, things do get mangled (whatever Microsoft format it is, mind 
>>> you). It's pretty basic text though, hooray :D I'm tempted to put it 
>>> on the wiki :)
>>>
>>> I liked reading the manifest. Covers all the areas I can think of 
>>> except I guess technical documentation and tutorials for how to 
>>> build levels for the game are kind of missing (so both technical 
>>> documentation on the game, and how to build things for the game). 
>>> Not needed for getting to know the game though.
>>>
>>> A very good example, certainly since it contains everything that 
>>> would be needed to literally install and play the game, with some 
>>> good important background pieces too.
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> Devin Monnens wrote:
>>>> The latest Open Office seems to have .docx support. But I still 
>>>> refuse to save anything in that format. This format shift has 
>>>> caused nothing but troubles. I don't even see how it is supposedly 
>>>> 'better' than the old version. I have enough trouble trying to 
>>>> teach students how to use the new Office without having to describe 
>>>> to them how to 'save as' a document (yes, this is rocket science to 
>>>> them).
>>>>
>>>> -Devin
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Alan Au <aau at alum.mit.edu 
>>>> <mailto:aau at alum.mit.edu>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Microsoft released a compatibility tool a while back:
>>>>
>>>>     http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en
>>>>     <http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en>
>>>>
>>>>     - Alan
>>>>
>>>>     ________________________________
>>>>     > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:59:40 +0100
>>>>     > From: andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>
>>>>     > To: game_preservation at igda.org
>>>>     <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>>>     > Subject: Re: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
>>>>     >
>>>>     > I finally got some time to check this out, apart from it's
>>>>     DOCX, and
>>>>     > darn shucks if I don't own that particular bit of software.
>>>>     Can anyone
>>>>     > whip up a ODT or DOC version? :) I am interested in reading it.
>>>>     >
>>>>     > (Proprietary formats for documentation of preservation
>>>>     practices, let's
>>>>     > not even get into that argument/minefield, hehe).
>>>>     >
>>>>     > Andrew
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     _________________________________________________________________
>>>>     Bing brings you health info from trusted sources.
>>>>     http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1
>>>>     <http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1>
>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Devin Monnens
>>>> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>>>>
>>>> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>>   
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>   
>>
>> -- 
>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>  Film & Media Collections
>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>> Stanford University Libraries
>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
>> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Thu Sep 17 16:01:56 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 21:01:56 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
In-Reply-To: <4AB278BE.3080702@stanford.edu>
References: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu>	<4AB1278C.3020809@aarmstrong.org>	<SNT110-W11D481744CE25512F461A5BAE20@phx.gbl>	<9d1cf2d50909161800t6826fd0cv1b8a3fce36c5d08c@mail.gmail.com>	<4AB25A72.2040709@aarmstrong.org>	<4AB26A78.2000604@stanford.edu>	<4AB272E4.6060200@aarmstrong.org>
	<4AB278BE.3080702@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <4AB295B4.1020104@aarmstrong.org>

Cool answers ^_^

The robots.txt restrictions are a shame :( I wonder what the tool can do 
to maybe just simply bypass that (I tried the archive's crawler before, 
I think it has the option to bypass it - but I never tried it much due 
to the way it worked in the end) - recording something that is available 
and does download (after all, you don't get that kind of thing from 
something like putting a book in a repository/library, heh), but perhaps 
the key would be to not putting it online visibly ie; only on the 
Stanford servers in this case, but accessible to researchers if needed. 
You're right it is pretty arbitary when such robots.txt files are 
applied though (game fan sites? huh? :/ ). Ethically, I don't see a 
problem keeping offline or generally inaccessible online copies of a 
page or site content if it was publicly accessible in the first place, 
but I don't know about legal issues perhaps. I presume archives haven't 
been sued over keeping offline/dark copies or screenshots of downloaded 
web pages before.

For the dates of things, I just was curious. I guess if it's not 
mandatory for the bag system to have any of this in the first place, 
then I guess there's little point :) I think the Archive-It tool adds 
some as comments on the page source anyway. It's mainly a good thing for 
dynamic pages - wiki's (notorious Wikipedia deleting content arbitrarily 
for instance) new feeds, etc. where no date might be visible, and 
digital copies of items like the games themselves - but you have dates 
there :)

The copyright was just a legal thing yeah. I guess one option is always 
to scan/photograph the manuals, box art or whatever else will go in a 
repository but sometimes, for that, you need to have the original item 
or permission from someone who owns it, and some items are a lot rarer 
then others (especially if you go for multiple languages). If you get 
permission from the owner of the IP, no problemo I guess! They probably 
have access to digital copies of such material even if there were not 
ones available online. :)

Thanks for explaining a little about the manifest system too. I presume 
the Bag-It system is entirely digital based, and that it is going to be 
digitally archived specially. It'd be great to hear more when you've 
finished it :)

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> Andrew,
>
> 1. On the books.  There are plenty of books on DOOM level editing and 
> programming.  Trust me -- I still have a nice vertical pile of them on 
> the floor of my office at home.  I won't say how high ...
>
> 2. On the web links. We do have local copies for the sites we crawled 
> as part of our site.  If you look closely and know how Archive-It 
> builds its links, you can tell which are normal crawls and which are 
> ours.   I would say it's about 50-50.
>
> 3. Also on the links, the reason for the live links is robots.txt 
> blocks on crawls.  Classic Doom, for example. I have no idea why.  
> Some day when I have time, I will write to them and ask them to open 
> it up.  Yes, whenever possible, I would point to an Archive-It or 
> Wayback Machine crawled version.
>
> 4. Dates in the manifest. Actually, the manifest is not even required 
> for the Bag (we are using Bag-It for the file transfers).  Our guru in 
> all things metadata/schemes is Jerome McDonough, who is on the list, 
> and he puts a ton of effort into mapping relationships and all that.  
> My perspective as a curator here in the archivist role is that some 
> sort of human-readable manifest belonged in the bag, so I just put it 
> there.   It is not typical to do so, as far as I know.   I thought 
> about dates, but this leads to another issue, which is that these 
> documents as standing alone here are really out of context.  So, my 
> feeling is that if there is a date on the document, that should 
> suffice.   A propos, keep in mind that the documents here that are not 
> actually DOOM are included as "context" for DOOM.  Again, it's not a 
> research project or even a collection, really.  After the bags are 
> delivered to the digital repository, we have the option of presenting 
> the material in a different way.
>
> 5. In the last question, did you mean a problem as in a legal 
> problem?   We asked id for permission to do this, and we got it.
>
> 6.  Thanks for catching the error.
>
> Henry
>
>
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>> Yeah, I was joking about the wiki, it's your document, hehe - you 
>> said you have a wiki ;) perfect application unless you've got a good 
>> relational database for processing entries like that :)
>>
>> I've got no documents myself on doom level editing - I dabbled a 
>> little in it but that was, wow, years ago now, sorry. I'll leave it 
>> to someone else to know of a good one, I am sure someone else on this 
>> list would have a clue. I wonder if any of the DOOM books are related 
>> to level editing directly. There I know there is a few on just DOOM 
>> itself - I still need to read Masters of Doom, going to borrow it off 
>> a friend sometime (who ranted it was a great book himself, popular 
>> one that :) hehe).
>>
>> A few things if you want more comments - for the web links, perhaps 
>> there should be secondary links to Archive-It copies of the resources 
>> linked to directly (unless the implication is you have local copies 
>> downloaded of them) - most of them are Archive-It or Wayback but a 
>> few are just direct links at least (classic doom links, some 
>> mobygames, planetdoom...). It seems more a mistake not having them - 
>> thus I guess it's a standard practice to get an Archive-It copy to 
>> add it to a manifest?
>>
>> Another thing is dates. Is it worth in a manifest listing the dates 
>> items were either created or posted, or when they were looked at on 
>> the internet? Most do have wayback implicit dates mind you, and in a 
>> list that might not be appropriate I guess :)
>>
>> Finally - I just wondered, probably slightly related, but I guess 
>> there is no cause for concern having items like the DOOM manual 
>> basically in a manifest - ie; I presume a user-scanned copy of it (or 
>> maybe off the CD versions?). For other games, links to unofficial 
>> translations for ROM files, or emulation programs necessary to run 
>> something, etc. always might need to be added, no problems there I 
>> hope - I've no idea what the range of things the manifest should have 
>> in it is of course, or what reasons there might be to not add 
>> anything (apart from the obvious "you can't fit everything in, and 
>> not everything is of the same importance").
>>
>> I also did thoroughly re-read it just now - you've got an error for 
>> "MobyGames entry  for Ultimate DOOM" copies the link from the above 
>> entry.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Henry Lowood wrote:
>>> Andrew,
>>>
>>> I think you were kidding, but just in case: Please don't put it on 
>>> the wiki.  It's a draft for comments.   When all is said and done, 
>>> we'll have all the documentation up on our project wiki, at which 
>>> point it will be available for all sorts of pointing and clicking.
>>>
>>> On maps/levels in the manifest (at that time, the terms were in 
>>> flux). Since this version, the one document I have added is Forsman 
>>> & Kremeier's classic piece on BSP and DOOM rendering, plus there is 
>>> the Q&A on editing.  But you're right, a tutorial on map/level 
>>> design would be nice.  If anyone wants to suggest a good document on 
>>> that topic, I'll consider including it.
>>>
>>> Another point is that there is a fair-sized library of printed books 
>>> on that subject, which we can hope will still be available 100 years 
>>> from now.
>>>
>>> Henry
>>>
>>> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>>> Thanks for the advice, I did open it in Open Office but sometimes, 
>>>> well, things do get mangled (whatever Microsoft format it is, mind 
>>>> you). It's pretty basic text though, hooray :D I'm tempted to put 
>>>> it on the wiki :)
>>>>
>>>> I liked reading the manifest. Covers all the areas I can think of 
>>>> except I guess technical documentation and tutorials for how to 
>>>> build levels for the game are kind of missing (so both technical 
>>>> documentation on the game, and how to build things for the game). 
>>>> Not needed for getting to know the game though.
>>>>
>>>> A very good example, certainly since it contains everything that 
>>>> would be needed to literally install and play the game, with some 
>>>> good important background pieces too.
>>>>
>>>> Andrew
>>>>
>>>> Devin Monnens wrote:
>>>>> The latest Open Office seems to have .docx support. But I still 
>>>>> refuse to save anything in that format. This format shift has 
>>>>> caused nothing but troubles. I don't even see how it is supposedly 
>>>>> 'better' than the old version. I have enough trouble trying to 
>>>>> teach students how to use the new Office without having to 
>>>>> describe to them how to 'save as' a document (yes, this is rocket 
>>>>> science to them).
>>>>>
>>>>> -Devin
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Alan Au <aau at alum.mit.edu 
>>>>> <mailto:aau at alum.mit.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Microsoft released a compatibility tool a while back:
>>>>>
>>>>>     http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en
>>>>>     <http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en>
>>>>>
>>>>>     - Alan
>>>>>
>>>>>     ________________________________
>>>>>     > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:59:40 +0100
>>>>>     > From: andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>
>>>>>     > To: game_preservation at igda.org
>>>>>     <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>>>>     > Subject: Re: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
>>>>>     >
>>>>>     > I finally got some time to check this out, apart from it's
>>>>>     DOCX, and
>>>>>     > darn shucks if I don't own that particular bit of software.
>>>>>     Can anyone
>>>>>     > whip up a ODT or DOC version? :) I am interested in reading it.
>>>>>     >
>>>>>     > (Proprietary formats for documentation of preservation
>>>>>     practices, let's
>>>>>     > not even get into that argument/minefield, hehe).
>>>>>     >
>>>>>     > Andrew
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     _________________________________________________________________
>>>>>     Bing brings you health info from trusted sources.
>>>>>     http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1
>>>>>     <http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1>
>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>>>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>>>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Devin Monnens
>>>>> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>>>   
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>>   
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>>  Film & Media Collections
>>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>> Stanford University Libraries
>>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
>>> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>   
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
>
> -- 
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>  Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From dmonnens at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 23:27:19 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 21:27:19 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909172023n28543c62m22dbeab39bb05a0a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu> <4AB1278C.3020809@aarmstrong.org>
	<SNT110-W11D481744CE25512F461A5BAE20@phx.gbl>
	<9d1cf2d50909161800t6826fd0cv1b8a3fce36c5d08c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB25A72.2040709@aarmstrong.org> <4AB26A78.2000604@stanford.edu>
	<4AB272E4.6060200@aarmstrong.org> <4AB278BE.3080702@stanford.edu>
	<4AB295B4.1020104@aarmstrong.org>
	<9d1cf2d50909172023n28543c62m22dbeab39bb05a0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909172027p3f80f4aes9631f6a28e5c641@mail.gmail.com>

Actually, I think my biggest area of interest would be 'which things did you
id say you explicitly needed permission for' (i.e. what did their lawyers
say was covered under their copyright)? That might be useful if they say
that game footage and screenshots are covered. Obviously, you have
permission, but there should be a list of things you explicitly needed
permission for, right?

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Devin Monnens <dmonnens at gmail.com> wrote:

> Henry,
> Do you have a list of all (?) versions of the DOOM game that were released?
> This would include ports too I suppose. Actually, I'm kind of surprised
> there isn't an article on DOOM in HG101 - that sounds like a perfect series
> to cover.
>
> Also, I hope you're going to publish a paper on this as a case study for
> game preservation! Remember, I'll be hosting a panel on it in Albuquerque in
> February. If we get enough people, it's possible we could do two sections.
>
> -Devin
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:
>
>>  Cool answers ^_^
>>
>> The robots.txt restrictions are a shame :( I wonder what the tool can do
>> to maybe just simply bypass that (I tried the archive's crawler before, I
>> think it has the option to bypass it - but I never tried it much due to the
>> way it worked in the end) - recording something that is available and does
>> download (after all, you don't get that kind of thing from something like
>> putting a book in a repository/library, heh), but perhaps the key would be
>> to not putting it online visibly ie; only on the Stanford servers in this
>> case, but accessible to researchers if needed. You're right it is pretty
>> arbitary when such robots.txt files are applied though (game fan sites? huh?
>> :/ ). Ethically, I don't see a problem keeping offline or generally
>> inaccessible online copies of a page or site content if it was publicly
>> accessible in the first place, but I don't know about legal issues perhaps.
>> I presume archives haven't been sued over keeping offline/dark copies or
>> screenshots of downloaded web pages before.
>>
>> For the dates of things, I just was curious. I guess if it's not mandatory
>> for the bag system to have any of this in the first place, then I guess
>> there's little point :) I think the Archive-It tool adds some as comments on
>> the page source anyway. It's mainly a good thing for dynamic pages - wiki's
>> (notorious Wikipedia deleting content arbitrarily for instance) new feeds,
>> etc. where no date might be visible, and digital copies of items like the
>> games themselves - but you have dates there :)
>>
>> The copyright was just a legal thing yeah. I guess one option is always to
>> scan/photograph the manuals, box art or whatever else will go in a
>> repository but sometimes, for that, you need to have the original item or
>> permission from someone who owns it, and some items are a lot rarer then
>> others (especially if you go for multiple languages). If you get permission
>> from the owner of the IP, no problemo I guess! They probably have access to
>> digital copies of such material even if there were not ones available
>> online. :)
>>
>> Thanks for explaining a little about the manifest system too. I presume
>> the Bag-It system is entirely digital based, and that it is going to be
>> digitally archived specially. It'd be great to hear more when you've
>> finished it :)
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Henry Lowood wrote:
>>
>> Andrew,
>>
>> 1. On the books.  There are plenty of books on DOOM level editing and
>> programming.  Trust me -- I still have a nice vertical pile of them on the
>> floor of my office at home.  I won't say how high ...
>>
>> 2. On the web links. We do have local copies for the sites we crawled as
>> part of our site.  If you look closely and know how Archive-It builds its
>> links, you can tell which are normal crawls and which are ours.   I would
>> say it's about 50-50.
>>
>> 3. Also on the links, the reason for the live links is robots.txt blocks
>> on crawls.  Classic Doom, for example. I have no idea why.  Some day when I
>> have time, I will write to them and ask them to open it up.  Yes, whenever
>> possible, I would point to an Archive-It or Wayback Machine crawled version.
>>
>> 4. Dates in the manifest. Actually, the manifest is not even required for
>> the Bag (we are using Bag-It for the file transfers).  Our guru in all
>> things metadata/schemes is Jerome McDonough, who is on the list, and he puts
>> a ton of effort into mapping relationships and all that.  My perspective as
>> a curator here in the archivist role is that some sort of human-readable
>> manifest belonged in the bag, so I just put it there.   It is not typical to
>> do so, as far as I know.   I thought about dates, but this leads to another
>> issue, which is that these documents as standing alone here are really out
>> of context.  So, my feeling is that if there is a date on the document, that
>> should suffice.   A propos, keep in mind that the documents here that are
>> not actually DOOM are included as "context" for DOOM.  Again, it's not a
>> research project or even a collection, really.  After the bags are delivered
>> to the digital repository, we have the option of presenting the material in
>> a different way.
>>
>> 5. In the last question, did you mean a problem as in a legal problem?
>> We asked id for permission to do this, and we got it.
>>
>> 6.  Thanks for catching the error.
>>
>> Henry
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, I was joking about the wiki, it's your document, hehe - you said you
>> have a wiki ;) perfect application unless you've got a good relational
>> database for processing entries like that :)
>>
>> I've got no documents myself on doom level editing - I dabbled a little in
>> it but that was, wow, years ago now, sorry. I'll leave it to someone else to
>> know of a good one, I am sure someone else on this list would have a clue. I
>> wonder if any of the DOOM books are related to level editing directly. There
>> I know there is a few on just DOOM itself - I still need to read Masters of
>> Doom, going to borrow it off a friend sometime (who ranted it was a great
>> book himself, popular one that :) hehe).
>>
>> A few things if you want more comments - for the web links, perhaps there
>> should be secondary links to Archive-It copies of the resources linked to
>> directly (unless the implication is you have local copies downloaded of
>> them) - most of them are Archive-It or Wayback but a few are just direct
>> links at least (classic doom links, some mobygames, planetdoom...). It seems
>> more a mistake not having them - thus I guess it's a standard practice to
>> get an Archive-It copy to add it to a manifest?
>>
>> Another thing is dates. Is it worth in a manifest listing the dates items
>> were either created or posted, or when they were looked at on the internet?
>> Most do have wayback implicit dates mind you, and in a list that might not
>> be appropriate I guess :)
>>
>> Finally - I just wondered, probably slightly related, but I guess there is
>> no cause for concern having items like the DOOM manual basically in a
>> manifest - ie; I presume a user-scanned copy of it (or maybe off the CD
>> versions?). For other games, links to unofficial translations for ROM files,
>> or emulation programs necessary to run something, etc. always might need to
>> be added, no problems there I hope - I've no idea what the range of things
>> the manifest should have in it is of course, or what reasons there might be
>> to not add anything (apart from the obvious "you can't fit everything in,
>> and not everything is of the same importance").
>>
>> I also did thoroughly re-read it just now - you've got an error for
>> "MobyGames entry  for Ultimate DOOM" copies the link from the above entry.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Henry Lowood wrote:
>>
>> Andrew,
>>
>> I think you were kidding, but just in case: Please don't put it on the
>> wiki.  It's a draft for comments.   When all is said and done, we'll have
>> all the documentation up on our project wiki, at which point it will be
>> available for all sorts of pointing and clicking.
>>
>> On maps/levels in the manifest (at that time, the terms were in flux).
>> Since this version, the one document I have added is Forsman & Kremeier's
>> classic piece on BSP and DOOM rendering, plus there is the Q&A on editing.
>> But you're right, a tutorial on map/level design would be nice.  If anyone
>> wants to suggest a good document on that topic, I'll consider including it.
>>
>> Another point is that there is a fair-sized library of printed books on
>> that subject, which we can hope will still be available 100 years from now.
>>
>> Henry
>>
>> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the advice, I did open it in Open Office but sometimes, well,
>> things do get mangled (whatever Microsoft format it is, mind you). It's
>> pretty basic text though, hooray :D I'm tempted to put it on the wiki :)
>>
>> I liked reading the manifest. Covers all the areas I can think of except I
>> guess technical documentation and tutorials for how to build levels for the
>> game are kind of missing (so both technical documentation on the game, and
>> how to build things for the game). Not needed for getting to know the game
>> though.
>>
>> A very good example, certainly since it contains everything that would be
>> needed to literally install and play the game, with some good important
>> background pieces too.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Devin Monnens wrote:
>>
>> The latest Open Office seems to have .docx support. But I still refuse to
>> save anything in that format. This format shift has caused nothing but
>> troubles. I don't even see how it is supposedly 'better' than the old
>> version. I have enough trouble trying to teach students how to use the new
>> Office without having to describe to them how to 'save as' a document (yes,
>> this is rocket science to them).
>>  -Devin
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Alan Au <aau at alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Microsoft released a compatibility tool a while back:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en
>>>
>>> - Alan
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:59:40 +0100
>>> > From: andrew at aarmstrong.org
>>> > To: game_preservation at igda.org
>>> > Subject: Re: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
>>> >
>>> > I finally got some time to check this out, apart from it's DOCX, and
>>> > darn shucks if I don't own that particular bit of software. Can anyone
>>> > whip up a ODT or DOC version? :) I am interested in reading it.
>>> >
>>> > (Proprietary formats for documentation of preservation practices, let's
>>> > not even get into that argument/minefield, hehe).
>>> >
>>> > Andrew
>>>
>>>
>>>  _________________________________________________________________
>>> Bing brings you health info from trusted sources.
>>>
>>> http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Devin Monnens
>> www.deserthat.com
>>
>> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>
>> --
>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>  Film & Media Collections
>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>> Stanford University Libraries
>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>
>> --
>> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>  Film & Media Collections
>> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>> Stanford University Libraries
>> Stanford CA 94305-6004
>> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>



-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From dmonnens at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 23:23:32 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 21:23:32 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
In-Reply-To: <4AB295B4.1020104@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu> <4AB1278C.3020809@aarmstrong.org>
	<SNT110-W11D481744CE25512F461A5BAE20@phx.gbl>
	<9d1cf2d50909161800t6826fd0cv1b8a3fce36c5d08c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB25A72.2040709@aarmstrong.org> <4AB26A78.2000604@stanford.edu>
	<4AB272E4.6060200@aarmstrong.org> <4AB278BE.3080702@stanford.edu>
	<4AB295B4.1020104@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909172023n28543c62m22dbeab39bb05a0a@mail.gmail.com>

Henry,
Do you have a list of all (?) versions of the DOOM game that were released?
This would include ports too I suppose. Actually, I'm kind of surprised
there isn't an article on DOOM in HG101 - that sounds like a perfect series
to cover.

Also, I hope you're going to publish a paper on this as a case study for
game preservation! Remember, I'll be hosting a panel on it in Albuquerque in
February. If we get enough people, it's possible we could do two sections.

-Devin

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

>  Cool answers ^_^
>
> The robots.txt restrictions are a shame :( I wonder what the tool can do to
> maybe just simply bypass that (I tried the archive's crawler before, I think
> it has the option to bypass it - but I never tried it much due to the way it
> worked in the end) - recording something that is available and does download
> (after all, you don't get that kind of thing from something like putting a
> book in a repository/library, heh), but perhaps the key would be to not
> putting it online visibly ie; only on the Stanford servers in this case, but
> accessible to researchers if needed. You're right it is pretty arbitary when
> such robots.txt files are applied though (game fan sites? huh? :/ ).
> Ethically, I don't see a problem keeping offline or generally inaccessible
> online copies of a page or site content if it was publicly accessible in the
> first place, but I don't know about legal issues perhaps. I presume archives
> haven't been sued over keeping offline/dark copies or screenshots of
> downloaded web pages before.
>
> For the dates of things, I just was curious. I guess if it's not mandatory
> for the bag system to have any of this in the first place, then I guess
> there's little point :) I think the Archive-It tool adds some as comments on
> the page source anyway. It's mainly a good thing for dynamic pages - wiki's
> (notorious Wikipedia deleting content arbitrarily for instance) new feeds,
> etc. where no date might be visible, and digital copies of items like the
> games themselves - but you have dates there :)
>
> The copyright was just a legal thing yeah. I guess one option is always to
> scan/photograph the manuals, box art or whatever else will go in a
> repository but sometimes, for that, you need to have the original item or
> permission from someone who owns it, and some items are a lot rarer then
> others (especially if you go for multiple languages). If you get permission
> from the owner of the IP, no problemo I guess! They probably have access to
> digital copies of such material even if there were not ones available
> online. :)
>
> Thanks for explaining a little about the manifest system too. I presume the
> Bag-It system is entirely digital based, and that it is going to be
> digitally archived specially. It'd be great to hear more when you've
> finished it :)
>
> Andrew
>
> Henry Lowood wrote:
>
> Andrew,
>
> 1. On the books.  There are plenty of books on DOOM level editing and
> programming.  Trust me -- I still have a nice vertical pile of them on the
> floor of my office at home.  I won't say how high ...
>
> 2. On the web links. We do have local copies for the sites we crawled as
> part of our site.  If you look closely and know how Archive-It builds its
> links, you can tell which are normal crawls and which are ours.   I would
> say it's about 50-50.
>
> 3. Also on the links, the reason for the live links is robots.txt blocks on
> crawls.  Classic Doom, for example. I have no idea why.  Some day when I
> have time, I will write to them and ask them to open it up.  Yes, whenever
> possible, I would point to an Archive-It or Wayback Machine crawled version.
>
> 4. Dates in the manifest. Actually, the manifest is not even required for
> the Bag (we are using Bag-It for the file transfers).  Our guru in all
> things metadata/schemes is Jerome McDonough, who is on the list, and he puts
> a ton of effort into mapping relationships and all that.  My perspective as
> a curator here in the archivist role is that some sort of human-readable
> manifest belonged in the bag, so I just put it there.   It is not typical to
> do so, as far as I know.   I thought about dates, but this leads to another
> issue, which is that these documents as standing alone here are really out
> of context.  So, my feeling is that if there is a date on the document, that
> should suffice.   A propos, keep in mind that the documents here that are
> not actually DOOM are included as "context" for DOOM.  Again, it's not a
> research project or even a collection, really.  After the bags are delivered
> to the digital repository, we have the option of presenting the material in
> a different way.
>
> 5. In the last question, did you mean a problem as in a legal problem?   We
> asked id for permission to do this, and we got it.
>
> 6.  Thanks for catching the error.
>
> Henry
>
>
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>
> Yeah, I was joking about the wiki, it's your document, hehe - you said you
> have a wiki ;) perfect application unless you've got a good relational
> database for processing entries like that :)
>
> I've got no documents myself on doom level editing - I dabbled a little in
> it but that was, wow, years ago now, sorry. I'll leave it to someone else to
> know of a good one, I am sure someone else on this list would have a clue. I
> wonder if any of the DOOM books are related to level editing directly. There
> I know there is a few on just DOOM itself - I still need to read Masters of
> Doom, going to borrow it off a friend sometime (who ranted it was a great
> book himself, popular one that :) hehe).
>
> A few things if you want more comments - for the web links, perhaps there
> should be secondary links to Archive-It copies of the resources linked to
> directly (unless the implication is you have local copies downloaded of
> them) - most of them are Archive-It or Wayback but a few are just direct
> links at least (classic doom links, some mobygames, planetdoom...). It seems
> more a mistake not having them - thus I guess it's a standard practice to
> get an Archive-It copy to add it to a manifest?
>
> Another thing is dates. Is it worth in a manifest listing the dates items
> were either created or posted, or when they were looked at on the internet?
> Most do have wayback implicit dates mind you, and in a list that might not
> be appropriate I guess :)
>
> Finally - I just wondered, probably slightly related, but I guess there is
> no cause for concern having items like the DOOM manual basically in a
> manifest - ie; I presume a user-scanned copy of it (or maybe off the CD
> versions?). For other games, links to unofficial translations for ROM files,
> or emulation programs necessary to run something, etc. always might need to
> be added, no problems there I hope - I've no idea what the range of things
> the manifest should have in it is of course, or what reasons there might be
> to not add anything (apart from the obvious "you can't fit everything in,
> and not everything is of the same importance").
>
> I also did thoroughly re-read it just now - you've got an error for
> "MobyGames entry  for Ultimate DOOM" copies the link from the above entry.
>
> Andrew
>
> Henry Lowood wrote:
>
> Andrew,
>
> I think you were kidding, but just in case: Please don't put it on the
> wiki.  It's a draft for comments.   When all is said and done, we'll have
> all the documentation up on our project wiki, at which point it will be
> available for all sorts of pointing and clicking.
>
> On maps/levels in the manifest (at that time, the terms were in flux).
> Since this version, the one document I have added is Forsman & Kremeier's
> classic piece on BSP and DOOM rendering, plus there is the Q&A on editing.
> But you're right, a tutorial on map/level design would be nice.  If anyone
> wants to suggest a good document on that topic, I'll consider including it.
>
> Another point is that there is a fair-sized library of printed books on
> that subject, which we can hope will still be available 100 years from now.
>
> Henry
>
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>
> Thanks for the advice, I did open it in Open Office but sometimes, well,
> things do get mangled (whatever Microsoft format it is, mind you). It's
> pretty basic text though, hooray :D I'm tempted to put it on the wiki :)
>
> I liked reading the manifest. Covers all the areas I can think of except I
> guess technical documentation and tutorials for how to build levels for the
> game are kind of missing (so both technical documentation on the game, and
> how to build things for the game). Not needed for getting to know the game
> though.
>
> A very good example, certainly since it contains everything that would be
> needed to literally install and play the game, with some good important
> background pieces too.
>
> Andrew
>
> Devin Monnens wrote:
>
> The latest Open Office seems to have .docx support. But I still refuse to
> save anything in that format. This format shift has caused nothing but
> troubles. I don't even see how it is supposedly 'better' than the old
> version. I have enough trouble trying to teach students how to use the new
> Office without having to describe to them how to 'save as' a document (yes,
> this is rocket science to them).
>  -Devin
>
> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Alan Au <aau at alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>> Microsoft released a compatibility tool a while back:
>>
>>
>> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en
>>
>> - Alan
>>
>> ________________________________
>> > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:59:40 +0100
>> > From: andrew at aarmstrong.org
>> > To: game_preservation at igda.org
>> > Subject: Re: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
>> >
>> > I finally got some time to check this out, apart from it's DOCX, and
>> > darn shucks if I don't own that particular bit of software. Can anyone
>> > whip up a ODT or DOC version? :) I am interested in reading it.
>> >
>> > (Proprietary formats for documentation of preservation practices, let's
>> > not even get into that argument/minefield, hehe).
>> >
>> > Andrew
>>
>>
>>  _________________________________________________________________
>> Bing brings you health info from trusted sources.
>>
>> http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1
>>  _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> --
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>  Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> --
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>  Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>


-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From lowood at stanford.edu  Thu Sep 17 23:46:08 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 20:46:08 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909172023n28543c62m22dbeab39bb05a0a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu>
	<4AB1278C.3020809@aarmstrong.org>	<SNT110-W11D481744CE25512F461A5BAE20@phx.gbl>	<9d1cf2d50909161800t6826fd0cv1b8a3fce36c5d08c@mail.gmail.com>	<4AB25A72.2040709@aarmstrong.org>
	<4AB26A78.2000604@stanford.edu>	<4AB272E4.6060200@aarmstrong.org>
	<4AB278BE.3080702@stanford.edu>	<4AB295B4.1020104@aarmstrong.org>
	<9d1cf2d50909172023n28543c62m22dbeab39bb05a0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AB30280.8070700@stanford.edu>

Devin,

I have a fairly complete list for the DOS/Windows versions (shareware 
and full), but I have not paid much attention to the versions for other 
platforms.  And note that we did not include every version in the bag; 
for example DOOM II is not in there.

As for your other question, Id gave us permission to archive their 
software, which involves making copies.   There was no transfer of IP 
rights. They also gave us permission to do some exhibition-related work, 
again primarily for making copies.  They have given us permission in the 
past to use footage, screenshots and the like.  In terms of wording, it 
was pretty much blanket coverage for our project needs.

My impression is that HG is oriented towards console gaming.   I would 
have been surprised if they had covered DOOM.  Have they covered any of 
the major PC games or series?

Henry

Devin Monnens wrote:
> Henry,
>
> Do you have a list of all (?) versions of the DOOM game that were 
> released? This would include ports too I suppose. Actually, I'm kind 
> of surprised there isn't an article on DOOM in HG101 - that sounds 
> like a perfect series to cover.
>
> Also, I hope you're going to publish a paper on this as a case study 
> for game preservation! Remember, I'll be hosting a panel on it in 
> Albuquerque in February. If we get enough people, it's possible we 
> could do two sections.
>
> -Devin
>
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Andrew Armstrong 
> <andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>> wrote:
>
>     Cool answers ^_^
>
>     The robots.txt restrictions are a shame :( I wonder what the tool
>     can do to maybe just simply bypass that (I tried the archive's
>     crawler before, I think it has the option to bypass it - but I
>     never tried it much due to the way it worked in the end) -
>     recording something that is available and does download (after
>     all, you don't get that kind of thing from something like putting
>     a book in a repository/library, heh), but perhaps the key would be
>     to not putting it online visibly ie; only on the Stanford servers
>     in this case, but accessible to researchers if needed. You're
>     right it is pretty arbitary when such robots.txt files are applied
>     though (game fan sites? huh? :/ ). Ethically, I don't see a
>     problem keeping offline or generally inaccessible online copies of
>     a page or site content if it was publicly accessible in the first
>     place, but I don't know about legal issues perhaps. I presume
>     archives haven't been sued over keeping offline/dark copies or
>     screenshots of downloaded web pages before.
>
>     For the dates of things, I just was curious. I guess if it's not
>     mandatory for the bag system to have any of this in the first
>     place, then I guess there's little point :) I think the Archive-It
>     tool adds some as comments on the page source anyway. It's mainly
>     a good thing for dynamic pages - wiki's (notorious Wikipedia
>     deleting content arbitrarily for instance) new feeds, etc. where
>     no date might be visible, and digital copies of items like the
>     games themselves - but you have dates there :)
>
>     The copyright was just a legal thing yeah. I guess one option is
>     always to scan/photograph the manuals, box art or whatever else
>     will go in a repository but sometimes, for that, you need to have
>     the original item or permission from someone who owns it, and some
>     items are a lot rarer then others (especially if you go for
>     multiple languages). If you get permission from the owner of the
>     IP, no problemo I guess! They probably have access to digital
>     copies of such material even if there were not ones available
>     online. :)
>
>     Thanks for explaining a little about the manifest system too. I
>     presume the Bag-It system is entirely digital based, and that it
>     is going to be digitally archived specially. It'd be great to hear
>     more when you've finished it :)
>
>     Andrew
>
>     Henry Lowood wrote:
>>     Andrew,
>>
>>     1. On the books.  There are plenty of books on DOOM level editing
>>     and programming.  Trust me -- I still have a nice vertical pile
>>     of them on the floor of my office at home.  I won't say how high ...
>>
>>     2. On the web links. We do have local copies for the sites we
>>     crawled as part of our site.  If you look closely and know how
>>     Archive-It builds its links, you can tell which are normal crawls
>>     and which are ours.   I would say it's about 50-50.
>>
>>     3. Also on the links, the reason for the live links is robots.txt
>>     blocks on crawls.  Classic Doom, for example. I have no idea
>>     why.  Some day when I have time, I will write to them and ask
>>     them to open it up.  Yes, whenever possible, I would point to an
>>     Archive-It or Wayback Machine crawled version.
>>
>>     4. Dates in the manifest. Actually, the manifest is not even
>>     required for the Bag (we are using Bag-It for the file
>>     transfers).  Our guru in all things metadata/schemes is Jerome
>>     McDonough, who is on the list, and he puts a ton of effort into
>>     mapping relationships and all that.  My perspective as a curator
>>     here in the archivist role is that some sort of human-readable
>>     manifest belonged in the bag, so I just put it there.   It is not
>>     typical to do so, as far as I know.   I thought about dates, but
>>     this leads to another issue, which is that these documents as
>>     standing alone here are really out of context.  So, my feeling is
>>     that if there is a date on the document, that should suffice.   A
>>     propos, keep in mind that the documents here that are not
>>     actually DOOM are included as "context" for DOOM.  Again, it's
>>     not a research project or even a collection, really.  After the
>>     bags are delivered to the digital repository, we have the option
>>     of presenting the material in a different way.
>>
>>     5. In the last question, did you mean a problem as in a legal
>>     problem?   We asked id for permission to do this, and we got it.
>>
>>     6.  Thanks for catching the error.
>>
>>     Henry
>>
>>
>>
>>     Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>>     Yeah, I was joking about the wiki, it's your document, hehe -
>>>     you said you have a wiki ;) perfect application unless you've
>>>     got a good relational database for processing entries like that :)
>>>
>>>     I've got no documents myself on doom level editing - I dabbled a
>>>     little in it but that was, wow, years ago now, sorry. I'll leave
>>>     it to someone else to know of a good one, I am sure someone else
>>>     on this list would have a clue. I wonder if any of the DOOM
>>>     books are related to level editing directly. There I know there
>>>     is a few on just DOOM itself - I still need to read Masters of
>>>     Doom, going to borrow it off a friend sometime (who ranted it
>>>     was a great book himself, popular one that :) hehe).
>>>
>>>     A few things if you want more comments - for the web links,
>>>     perhaps there should be secondary links to Archive-It copies of
>>>     the resources linked to directly (unless the implication is you
>>>     have local copies downloaded of them) - most of them are
>>>     Archive-It or Wayback but a few are just direct links at least
>>>     (classic doom links, some mobygames, planetdoom...). It seems
>>>     more a mistake not having them - thus I guess it's a standard
>>>     practice to get an Archive-It copy to add it to a manifest?
>>>
>>>     Another thing is dates. Is it worth in a manifest listing the
>>>     dates items were either created or posted, or when they were
>>>     looked at on the internet? Most do have wayback implicit dates
>>>     mind you, and in a list that might not be appropriate I guess :)
>>>
>>>     Finally - I just wondered, probably slightly related, but I
>>>     guess there is no cause for concern having items like the DOOM
>>>     manual basically in a manifest - ie; I presume a user-scanned
>>>     copy of it (or maybe off the CD versions?). For other games,
>>>     links to unofficial translations for ROM files, or emulation
>>>     programs necessary to run something, etc. always might need to
>>>     be added, no problems there I hope - I've no idea what the range
>>>     of things the manifest should have in it is of course, or what
>>>     reasons there might be to not add anything (apart from the
>>>     obvious "you can't fit everything in, and not everything is of
>>>     the same importance").
>>>
>>>     I also did thoroughly re-read it just now - you've got an error
>>>     for "MobyGames entry  for Ultimate DOOM" copies the link from
>>>     the above entry.
>>>
>>>     Andrew
>>>
>>>     Henry Lowood wrote:
>>>>     Andrew,
>>>>
>>>>     I think you were kidding, but just in case: Please don't put it
>>>>     on the wiki.  It's a draft for comments.   When all is said and
>>>>     done, we'll have all the documentation up on our project wiki,
>>>>     at which point it will be available for all sorts of pointing
>>>>     and clicking.
>>>>
>>>>     On maps/levels in the manifest (at that time, the terms were in
>>>>     flux). Since this version, the one document I have added is
>>>>     Forsman & Kremeier's classic piece on BSP and DOOM rendering,
>>>>     plus there is the Q&A on editing.  But you're right, a tutorial
>>>>     on map/level design would be nice.  If anyone wants to suggest
>>>>     a good document on that topic, I'll consider including it.
>>>>
>>>>     Another point is that there is a fair-sized library of printed
>>>>     books on that subject, which we can hope will still be
>>>>     available 100 years from now.
>>>>
>>>>     Henry
>>>>
>>>>     Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>>>>>     Thanks for the advice, I did open it in Open Office but
>>>>>     sometimes, well, things do get mangled (whatever Microsoft
>>>>>     format it is, mind you). It's pretty basic text though, hooray
>>>>>     :D I'm tempted to put it on the wiki :)
>>>>>
>>>>>     I liked reading the manifest. Covers all the areas I can think
>>>>>     of except I guess technical documentation and tutorials for
>>>>>     how to build levels for the game are kind of missing (so both
>>>>>     technical documentation on the game, and how to build things
>>>>>     for the game). Not needed for getting to know the game though.
>>>>>
>>>>>     A very good example, certainly since it contains everything
>>>>>     that would be needed to literally install and play the game,
>>>>>     with some good important background pieces too.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Andrew
>>>>>
>>>>>     Devin Monnens wrote:
>>>>>>     The latest Open Office seems to have .docx support. But I
>>>>>>     still refuse to save anything in that format. This format
>>>>>>     shift has caused nothing but troubles. I don't even see how
>>>>>>     it is supposedly 'better' than the old version. I have enough
>>>>>>     trouble trying to teach students how to use the new Office
>>>>>>     without having to describe to them how to 'save as' a
>>>>>>     document (yes, this is rocket science to them).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     -Devin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Alan Au <aau at alum.mit.edu
>>>>>>     <mailto:aau at alum.mit.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         Microsoft released a compatibility tool a while back:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en
>>>>>>         <http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         - Alan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         ________________________________
>>>>>>         > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:59:40 +0100
>>>>>>         > From: andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>
>>>>>>         > To: game_preservation at igda.org
>>>>>>         <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>>>>>         > Subject: Re: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW
>>>>>>         project
>>>>>>         >
>>>>>>         > I finally got some time to check this out, apart from
>>>>>>         it's DOCX, and
>>>>>>         > darn shucks if I don't own that particular bit of
>>>>>>         software. Can anyone
>>>>>>         > whip up a ODT or DOC version? :) I am interested in
>>>>>>         reading it.
>>>>>>         >
>>>>>>         > (Proprietary formats for documentation of preservation
>>>>>>         practices, let's
>>>>>>         > not even get into that argument/minefield, hehe).
>>>>>>         >
>>>>>>         > Andrew
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         _________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>         Bing brings you health info from trusted sources.
>>>>>>         http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1
>>>>>>         <http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1>
>>>>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>>>>         game_preservation mailing list
>>>>>>         game_preservation at igda.org
>>>>>>         <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>>>>>         http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     -- 
>>>>>>     Devin Monnens
>>>>>>     www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>>>>>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>>>>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>>>>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>>>>       
>>>>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>>>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>>>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>>>       
>>>>
>>>>     -- 
>>>>     Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>>>     Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>>>      Film & Media Collections
>>>>     HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>>>     Stanford University Libraries
>>>>     Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>>>     650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>;
>>>>     http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
>>>>     <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>>       
>>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>       
>>
>>     -- 
>>     Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
>>     Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>>      Film & Media Collections
>>     HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
>>     Stanford University Libraries
>>     Stanford CA 94305-6004
>>     650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu <mailto:lowood at stanford.edu>;
>>     http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     _______________________________________________ game_preservation
>>     mailing list game_preservation at igda.org
>>     <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
     Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library
557 Escondido Mall, Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004 USA
http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood
lowood at stanford.edu; 650-723-4602

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From donahrm at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 15:02:07 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:02:07 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
In-Reply-To: <4AB30280.8070700@stanford.edu>
References: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu> <4AB1278C.3020809@aarmstrong.org>
	<SNT110-W11D481744CE25512F461A5BAE20@phx.gbl>
	<9d1cf2d50909161800t6826fd0cv1b8a3fce36c5d08c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB25A72.2040709@aarmstrong.org> <4AB26A78.2000604@stanford.edu>
	<4AB272E4.6060200@aarmstrong.org> <4AB278BE.3080702@stanford.edu>
	<4AB295B4.1020104@aarmstrong.org>
	<9d1cf2d50909172023n28543c62m22dbeab39bb05a0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB30280.8070700@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <op.u0gu5txhfmh8gn@sherpa.westell.com>


> My impression is that HG is oriented towards console gaming.   I would
> have been surprised if they had covered DOOM.  Have they covered any of
> the major PC games or series?
>

..don't forget about the "wonderful" DOOM port on the SNES!

From lowood at stanford.edu  Fri Sep 18 15:14:13 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:14:13 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
In-Reply-To: <op.u0gu5txhfmh8gn@sherpa.westell.com>
References: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu>
	<4AB1278C.3020809@aarmstrong.org>	<SNT110-W11D481744CE25512F461A5BAE20@phx.gbl>	<9d1cf2d50909161800t6826fd0cv1b8a3fce36c5d08c@mail.gmail.com>	<4AB25A72.2040709@aarmstrong.org>
	<4AB26A78.2000604@stanford.edu>	<4AB272E4.6060200@aarmstrong.org>
	<4AB278BE.3080702@stanford.edu>	<4AB295B4.1020104@aarmstrong.org>	<9d1cf2d50909172023n28543c62m22dbeab39bb05a0a@mail.gmail.com>	<4AB30280.8070700@stanford.edu>
	<op.u0gu5txhfmh8gn@sherpa.westell.com>
Message-ID: <4AB3DC05.7070507@stanford.edu>

I was trying to ...

Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
>
>> My impression is that HG is oriented towards console gaming.   I would
>> have been surprised if they had covered DOOM.  Have they covered any of
>> the major PC games or series?
>>
>
> ..don't forget about the "wonderful" DOOM port on the SNES!
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
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From donahrm at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 15:17:06 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:17:06 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project
In-Reply-To: <4AB3DC05.7070507@stanford.edu>
References: <4AA5FDCB.9020908@stanford.edu> <4AB1278C.3020809@aarmstrong.org>
	<SNT110-W11D481744CE25512F461A5BAE20@phx.gbl>
	<9d1cf2d50909161800t6826fd0cv1b8a3fce36c5d08c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB25A72.2040709@aarmstrong.org> <4AB26A78.2000604@stanford.edu>
	<4AB272E4.6060200@aarmstrong.org> <4AB278BE.3080702@stanford.edu>
	<4AB295B4.1020104@aarmstrong.org>
	<9d1cf2d50909172023n28543c62m22dbeab39bb05a0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB30280.8070700@stanford.edu> <op.u0gu5txhfmh8gn@sherpa.westell.com>
	<4AB3DC05.7070507@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <op.u0gvusu3fmh8gn@sherpa.westell.com>

It's a bright red thorn in the side of my SNES shelf. If I have to suffer,  
so does everyone else ;)

On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:14:13 -0400, Henry Lowood <lowood at stanford.edu>  
wrote:

> I was trying to ...
>
> Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
>>
>>> My impression is that HG is oriented towards console gaming.   I would
>>> have been surprised if they had covered DOOM.  Have they covered any of
>>> the major PC games or series?
>>>
>>
>> ..don't forget about the "wonderful" DOOM port on the SNES!
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>


-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Thu Sep 24 13:54:52 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:54:52 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Arty Games
Message-ID: <4ABBB26C.9040604@aarmstrong.org>

Thought this was a little bit interesting: 
http://www.stfj.net/art/2009/loselose/ - although as a technophile I'd 
play it only in a VM of course, heh ;)

There was also This Is The Only Level - 
http://armorgames.com/play/4309/this-is-the-only-level - which I'm sure 
you've seen, same kind of parody (or in fact, here, a little more of a 
design lesson) as Achievement Unlocked.

Anyone got any recent arty-like games (not just assuming anything by 
calling them this, but I hope you know what I mean). I've got a few in 
my backlog to play (Dear Esther and Korsakovia, Gravity Bone), once I 
feel like playing them, but I'm always looking for more.

As for how this relates to game history - well, frankly the quality 
varies but they're interesting, and usually free, which is great, 
especially since they can teach a mechanic or develop or parody it so 
well. :) Good for teaching, for sure.

Andrew

From dmonnens at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 22:55:34 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:55:34 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] Arty Games
In-Reply-To: <4ABBB26C.9040604@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4ABBB26C.9040604@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909241955l660bbd5fm71e6934b7ba1b6ac@mail.gmail.com>

Andrew,
Thank you for the info! The last arty game I played was a 'Today I
Die'-esque ludic poem about a guy walking and thinking about his girlfriend
who dumped him. Sadly, I can't remember the name!! I also still have the
Steam indie games collection to play through.

I am designing a course on game art (or videogames as art, rather), so these
will come in handy.

-Devin

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

> Thought this was a little bit interesting:
> http://www.stfj.net/art/2009/loselose/ - although as a technophile I'd
> play it only in a VM of course, heh ;)
>
> There was also This Is The Only Level -
> http://armorgames.com/play/4309/this-is-the-only-level - which I'm sure
> you've seen, same kind of parody (or in fact, here, a little more of a
> design lesson) as Achievement Unlocked.
>
> Anyone got any recent arty-like games (not just assuming anything by
> calling them this, but I hope you know what I mean). I've got a few in my
> backlog to play (Dear Esther and Korsakovia, Gravity Bone), once I feel like
> playing them, but I'm always looking for more.
>
> As for how this relates to game history - well, frankly the quality varies
> but they're interesting, and usually free, which is great, especially since
> they can teach a mechanic or develop or parody it so well. :) Good for
> teaching, for sure.
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>



-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From dmonnens at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 23:43:43 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:43:43 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] Arty Games
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909241955l660bbd5fm71e6934b7ba1b6ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ABBB26C.9040604@aarmstrong.org>
	<9d1cf2d50909241955l660bbd5fm71e6934b7ba1b6ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909242043r54e921a2g95d669e53c990217@mail.gmail.com>

Actually, Lose/Lose is particularly interesting to us digital media
preservationists! I even blogged about it :)
http://deserthat.wordpress.com/

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 8:55 PM, Devin Monnens <dmonnens at gmail.com> wrote:

> Andrew,
> Thank you for the info! The last arty game I played was a 'Today I
> Die'-esque ludic poem about a guy walking and thinking about his girlfriend
> who dumped him. Sadly, I can't remember the name!! I also still have the
> Steam indie games collection to play through.
>
> I am designing a course on game art (or videogames as art, rather), so
> these will come in handy.
>
> -Devin
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:
>
>> Thought this was a little bit interesting:
>> http://www.stfj.net/art/2009/loselose/ - although as a technophile I'd
>> play it only in a VM of course, heh ;)
>>
>> There was also This Is The Only Level -
>> http://armorgames.com/play/4309/this-is-the-only-level - which I'm sure
>> you've seen, same kind of parody (or in fact, here, a little more of a
>> design lesson) as Achievement Unlocked.
>>
>> Anyone got any recent arty-like games (not just assuming anything by
>> calling them this, but I hope you know what I mean). I've got a few in my
>> backlog to play (Dear Esther and Korsakovia, Gravity Bone), once I feel like
>> playing them, but I'm always looking for more.
>>
>> As for how this relates to game history - well, frankly the quality varies
>> but they're interesting, and usually free, which is great, especially since
>> they can teach a mechanic or develop or parody it so well. :) Good for
>> teaching, for sure.
>>
>> Andrew
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>



-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 00:09:49 2009
From: stuart.feldhamer at gmail.com (Stuart Feldhamer)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 00:09:49 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] Arty Games
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909242043r54e921a2g95d669e53c990217@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ABBB26C.9040604@aarmstrong.org>	<9d1cf2d50909241955l660bbd5fm71e6934b7ba1b6ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<9d1cf2d50909242043r54e921a2g95d669e53c990217@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c901ca3d96$0712ecf0$1538c6d0$@com>

Well, I'm not dumb enough to play Lose/Lose, but I did just play "This is
the Only Level". It was cute.

 

Stuart

 

From: game_preservation-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:game_preservation-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Devin Monnens
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:44 PM
To: IGDA Game Preservation SIG
Subject: Re: [game_preservation] Arty Games

 

Actually, Lose/Lose is particularly interesting to us digital media
preservationists! I even blogged about it :)

 

http://deserthat.wordpress.com/

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 8:55 PM, Devin Monnens <dmonnens at gmail.com> wrote:

Andrew,

 

Thank you for the info! The last arty game I played was a 'Today I
Die'-esque ludic poem about a guy walking and thinking about his girlfriend
who dumped him. Sadly, I can't remember the name!! I also still have the
Steam indie games collection to play through.

 

I am designing a course on game art (or videogames as art, rather), so these
will come in handy.

 

-Devin

 

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>
wrote:

Thought this was a little bit interesting:
http://www.stfj.net/art/2009/loselose/ - although as a technophile I'd play
it only in a VM of course, heh ;)

There was also This Is The Only Level -
http://armorgames.com/play/4309/this-is-the-only-level - which I'm sure
you've seen, same kind of parody (or in fact, here, a little more of a
design lesson) as Achievement Unlocked.

Anyone got any recent arty-like games (not just assuming anything by calling
them this, but I hope you know what I mean). I've got a few in my backlog to
play (Dear Esther and Korsakovia, Gravity Bone), once I feel like playing
them, but I'm always looking for more.

As for how this relates to game history - well, frankly the quality varies
but they're interesting, and usually free, which is great, especially since
they can teach a mechanic or develop or parody it so well. :) Good for
teaching, for sure.

Andrew
_______________________________________________
game_preservation mailing list
game_preservation at igda.org
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation





-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.




-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

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From mike at multimedia.cx  Fri Sep 25 00:02:34 2009
From: mike at multimedia.cx (Mike Melanson)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:02:34 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden
Message-ID: <4ABC40DA.2000502@multimedia.cx>

So I was thinking recently about how I didn't have enough to do with my 
life (that's sarcasm at work) and I came up with yet another project:

I have a 750 GB RAID-1 storage device (i.e., mirrored 750 GB drives for 
redundancy) that recently freed up. I have somewhere around 800 games on 
CD-ROM (of which a fair number consist of multiple discs). So how about 
archiving the discs? I guess it's sort of a duty when I am sitting on 
this kind of collection. Who else knows more about forgotten educational 
games and licensed Barbie titles?

The question becomes "how to archive?"

My first impulse: Write a Python script that automatically copies the 
data track from a CD-ROM ('dd' Unix command). Additionally, for any 
audio tracks, automatically rip them and compress them losslessly using 
either FLAC or ALAC (Apple Lossless).

Comments?

-- 
     -Mike Melanson

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Fri Sep 25 04:38:58 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 09:38:58 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden
In-Reply-To: <4ABC40DA.2000502@multimedia.cx>
References: <4ABC40DA.2000502@multimedia.cx>
Message-ID: <4ABC81A2.2050701@aarmstrong.org>

I don't think the Software Preservation Society has looked at CDs, but I 
wonder what their standards might be (any members want to comment?).

A automated solution would be key, yeah. A linux script would be good 
since there are few windows ISO/CD tools in any case, and none provide 
reliable logs (or don't simply crash when encountering bad data) from 
what I've found.

Looking up the dd command it looks pretty simple to get an ISO of a 
complete CD and it seems to be able to log enough information - 
especially useful for those glaringly obvious read problems some CDs 
have (from being poor quality to scratches to mess on them - so the 
noerror might even want to be omitted so you can check out any read 
errors so the ISO isn't broken).

One thing on the error sections, it doesn't seem to have a "repeatedly 
try reading data" option - odd, but I presume it does try more then once.

The only site I know that has ISO's (or CD contents more accurately) is 
Textfiles, Jason Scott might have an automated solution he's willing to 
share, might be worth asking.

Oh, for audio too, yeah, FLAC would be the preferable one in my opinion 
next to the raw files themselves if you want to save space. FLAC is 
open, so it's a pretty good one for standards for getting to read it 
back later, lots of tools that read and write them.

Andrew

Mike Melanson wrote:
> So I was thinking recently about how I didn't have enough to do with 
> my life (that's sarcasm at work) and I came up with yet another project:
>
> I have a 750 GB RAID-1 storage device (i.e., mirrored 750 GB drives 
> for redundancy) that recently freed up. I have somewhere around 800 
> games on CD-ROM (of which a fair number consist of multiple discs). So 
> how about archiving the discs? I guess it's sort of a duty when I am 
> sitting on this kind of collection. Who else knows more about 
> forgotten educational games and licensed Barbie titles?
>
> The question becomes "how to archive?"
>
> My first impulse: Write a Python script that automatically copies the 
> data track from a CD-ROM ('dd' Unix command). Additionally, for any 
> audio tracks, automatically rip them and compress them losslessly 
> using either FLAC or ALAC (Apple Lossless).
>
> Comments?
>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Fri Sep 25 04:58:51 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 09:58:51 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Arty Games
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909242043r54e921a2g95d669e53c990217@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ABBB26C.9040604@aarmstrong.org>	<9d1cf2d50909241955l660bbd5fm71e6934b7ba1b6ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<9d1cf2d50909242043r54e921a2g95d669e53c990217@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ABC864B.2030007@aarmstrong.org>

Heh, the game sure does question the worth of your digital files, it's 
interesting, but not as effective as doing it for something that simply 
can't ever be got back (although that applies more to the real world 
where you'd be proving a point in the worst way possible).

I think games title is a bit rubbish though. I personally think if it 
calls itself lose/lose, it implies that the game deleting itself is a 
loss (in addition to the stupid thought that dying in a game is 
"losing", gah, what a silly think to say, but is probably what he 
means), which if it is, heh, we might as well start trying to save every 
other destructive program, such as viruses ;)

Andrew

Devin Monnens wrote:
> Actually, Lose/Lose is particularly interesting to us digital media 
> preservationists! I even blogged about it :)
>
> http://deserthat.wordpress.com/
>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 8:55 PM, Devin Monnens <dmonnens at gmail.com 
> <mailto:dmonnens at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Andrew,
>
>     Thank you for the info! The last arty game I played was a 'Today I
>     Die'-esque ludic poem about a guy walking and thinking about his
>     girlfriend who dumped him. Sadly, I can't remember the name!! I
>     also still have the Steam indie games collection to play through.
>
>     I am designing a course on game art (or videogames as art,
>     rather), so these will come in handy.
>
>     -Devin
>
>
>     On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Andrew Armstrong
>     <andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>> wrote:
>
>         Thought this was a little bit interesting:
>         http://www.stfj.net/art/2009/loselose/ - although as a
>         technophile I'd play it only in a VM of course, heh ;)
>
>         There was also This Is The Only Level -
>         http://armorgames.com/play/4309/this-is-the-only-level - which
>         I'm sure you've seen, same kind of parody (or in fact, here, a
>         little more of a design lesson) as Achievement Unlocked.
>
>         Anyone got any recent arty-like games (not just assuming
>         anything by calling them this, but I hope you know what I
>         mean). I've got a few in my backlog to play (Dear Esther and
>         Korsakovia, Gravity Bone), once I feel like playing them, but
>         I'm always looking for more.
>
>         As for how this relates to game history - well, frankly the
>         quality varies but they're interesting, and usually free,
>         which is great, especially since they can teach a mechanic or
>         develop or parody it so well. :) Good for teaching, for sure.
>
>         Andrew
>         _______________________________________________
>         game_preservation mailing list
>         game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>         http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
>     -- 
>     Devin Monnens
>     www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
>     The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
-------------- next part --------------
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Fri Sep 25 05:04:11 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:04:11 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden
In-Reply-To: <4ABC81A2.2050701@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4ABC40DA.2000502@multimedia.cx> <4ABC81A2.2050701@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <4ABC878B.7020000@aarmstrong.org>

Addition; If this discussion gets something nailed down I'll add it to 
the wiki. We need to start developing a library of technical information 
so that anyone can find reliable information on this, CD copying is a 
good starting point since other places have floppy disc copying covered.

Andrew

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> I don't think the Software Preservation Society has looked at CDs, but 
> I wonder what their standards might be (any members want to comment?).
>
> A automated solution would be key, yeah. A linux script would be good 
> since there are few windows ISO/CD tools in any case, and none provide 
> reliable logs (or don't simply crash when encountering bad data) from 
> what I've found.
>
> Looking up the dd command it looks pretty simple to get an ISO of a 
> complete CD and it seems to be able to log enough information - 
> especially useful for those glaringly obvious read problems some CDs 
> have (from being poor quality to scratches to mess on them - so the 
> noerror might even want to be omitted so you can check out any read 
> errors so the ISO isn't broken).
>
> One thing on the error sections, it doesn't seem to have a "repeatedly 
> try reading data" option - odd, but I presume it does try more then once.
>
> The only site I know that has ISO's (or CD contents more accurately) 
> is Textfiles, Jason Scott might have an automated solution he's 
> willing to share, might be worth asking.
>
> Oh, for audio too, yeah, FLAC would be the preferable one in my 
> opinion next to the raw files themselves if you want to save space. 
> FLAC is open, so it's a pretty good one for standards for getting to 
> read it back later, lots of tools that read and write them.
>
> Andrew
>
> Mike Melanson wrote:
>> So I was thinking recently about how I didn't have enough to do with 
>> my life (that's sarcasm at work) and I came up with yet another project:
>>
>> I have a 750 GB RAID-1 storage device (i.e., mirrored 750 GB drives 
>> for redundancy) that recently freed up. I have somewhere around 800 
>> games on CD-ROM (of which a fair number consist of multiple discs). 
>> So how about archiving the discs? I guess it's sort of a duty when I 
>> am sitting on this kind of collection. Who else knows more about 
>> forgotten educational games and licensed Barbie titles?
>>
>> The question becomes "how to archive?"
>>
>> My first impulse: Write a Python script that automatically copies the 
>> data track from a CD-ROM ('dd' Unix command). Additionally, for any 
>> audio tracks, automatically rip them and compress them losslessly 
>> using either FLAC or ALAC (Apple Lossless).
>>
>> Comments?
>>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

From mike at multimedia.cx  Fri Sep 25 09:46:08 2009
From: mike at multimedia.cx (Mike Melanson)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 06:46:08 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden
In-Reply-To: <4ABC81A2.2050701@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4ABC40DA.2000502@multimedia.cx> <4ABC81A2.2050701@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <4ABCC9A0.1030207@multimedia.cx>

Andrew Armstrong wrote:
> Looking up the dd command it looks pretty simple to get an ISO of a 
> complete CD and it seems to be able to log enough information - 
> especially useful for those glaringly obvious read problems some CDs 
> have (from being poor quality to scratches to mess on them - so the 
> noerror might even want to be omitted so you can check out any read 
> errors so the ISO isn't broken).
> 
> One thing on the error sections, it doesn't seem to have a "repeatedly 
> try reading data" option - odd, but I presume it does try more then once.

I've used the 'dd' command on many occasions for this task and it works 
well. It's not particularly low level. It just reads from the device 
file, treating it as a regular file, and if there is anything wrong, 
that's handled at the OS driver level. I have, in fact, gotten faulty 
ISOs using 'dd' from heavily scratched discs.

> The only site I know that has ISO's (or CD contents more accurately) is 
> Textfiles, Jason Scott might have an automated solution he's willing to 
> share, might be worth asking.

This script should take less than 10 minutes to write and debug. I just 
wanted to make sure I'm on the right track and that I have the 
technologies covered. I once wrote another Python script that does a 
similar thing with creating ISO/MP3 rips of Sega CDs that are suitable 
for emulator play:

http://multimedia.cx/eggs/sega-cd-ripper/

> Oh, for audio too, yeah, FLAC would be the preferable one in my opinion 
> next to the raw files themselves if you want to save space. FLAC is 
> open, so it's a pretty good one for standards for getting to read it 
> back later, lots of tools that read and write them.

FLAC is nice for those reasons. However, the open source FFmpeg program 
is also able to read and write Apple Lossless directly and most lossless 
audio compressors perform more or less equally. Encoding to ALAC has the 
benefit of being able to play directly in iTunes.

Maybe I'll just encode to both formats. Lossless compressors generally 
share the property of being blindingly fast to encode.

Thanks...

-- 
     -Mike Melanson

From donahrm at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 10:14:56 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:14:56 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden
In-Reply-To: <4ABC40DA.2000502@multimedia.cx>
References: <4ABC40DA.2000502@multimedia.cx>
Message-ID: <op.u0tgi6sifmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>

dd works. If you want to save a tiny bit of space,  you might also look at  
using something to create a sparse image (empty sectors are not copied..  
probably less of a problem with CDs than HDDs). Ddrescue can do this:

http://www.forensicswiki.org/wiki/Ddrescue

I would say getting a full image is first, before worrying about  
separating the audio and data.

When/if you do decide to preserve the audio separately, the International  
Association of Sound and Audiovisual Archives
recommends WAV or BWF. Regardless of format, they and ARSC recommend a  
sampling rate of at least 96 kHz with 24 bit resolution.

These may be of interest:


The ARSC Technical Committee's preservation statement
http://www.arsc-audio.org/pdf/ARSCTC_preservation.pdf

and

Essential Resources for Audio Preservation
http://www.arsc-audio.org/pdf/ARSCTC_resources.pdf

Formats, Evaluation Factors, and Relationships
http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/intro/format_eval_rel.shtml

I can't think of a good reason _not_ to use FLAC, but I'm happy to bug a  
few A/V archivists I know if we think it's necessary.

DEFT or BackTrack may come preloaded with imaging automation.
http://www.deftlinux.net/
http://www.remote-exploit.org/backtrack.html

From dmonnens at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 10:44:50 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:44:50 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] Arty Games
In-Reply-To: <4ABC864B.2030007@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4ABBB26C.9040604@aarmstrong.org>
	<9d1cf2d50909241955l660bbd5fm71e6934b7ba1b6ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<9d1cf2d50909242043r54e921a2g95d669e53c990217@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ABC864B.2030007@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909250744y3bd9c790pb3b84374d9960e1b@mail.gmail.com>

An interesting thought: William Gibson once wrote a digital novel that would
decay each time you opened it. Unfortunately for him, people found a way
around it. I don't know if there's a way around this (say, loading it from a
flash drive).
Digital files do have value. For some, there may be only one copy in
existence (say a document you created). If you are afraid of losing your
files, there might be two reasons. 1. You haven't backed them up yet. 2. It
is a pain to reload your software. I have a combination of these two...

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 2:58 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

>  Heh, the game sure does question the worth of your digital files, it's
> interesting, but not as effective as doing it for something that simply
> can't ever be got back (although that applies more to the real world where
> you'd be proving a point in the worst way possible).
>
> I think games title is a bit rubbish though. I personally think if it calls
> itself lose/lose, it implies that the game deleting itself is a loss (in
> addition to the stupid thought that dying in a game is "losing", gah, what a
> silly think to say, but is probably what he means), which if it is, heh, we
> might as well start trying to save every other destructive program, such as
> viruses ;)
>
> Andrew
>
> Devin Monnens wrote:
>
> Actually, Lose/Lose is particularly interesting to us digital media
> preservationists! I even blogged about it :)
>  http://deserthat.wordpress.com/
>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 8:55 PM, Devin Monnens <dmonnens at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Andrew,
>>  Thank you for the info! The last arty game I played was a 'Today I
>> Die'-esque ludic poem about a guy walking and thinking about his girlfriend
>> who dumped him. Sadly, I can't remember the name!! I also still have the
>> Steam indie games collection to play through.
>>
>>  I am designing a course on game art (or videogames as art, rather), so
>> these will come in handy.
>>
>>  -Devin
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Thought this was a little bit interesting:
>>> http://www.stfj.net/art/2009/loselose/ - although as a technophile I'd
>>> play it only in a VM of course, heh ;)
>>>
>>> There was also This Is The Only Level -
>>> http://armorgames.com/play/4309/this-is-the-only-level - which I'm sure
>>> you've seen, same kind of parody (or in fact, here, a little more of a
>>> design lesson) as Achievement Unlocked.
>>>
>>> Anyone got any recent arty-like games (not just assuming anything by
>>> calling them this, but I hope you know what I mean). I've got a few in my
>>> backlog to play (Dear Esther and Korsakovia, Gravity Bone), once I feel like
>>> playing them, but I'm always looking for more.
>>>
>>> As for how this relates to game history - well, frankly the quality
>>> varies but they're interesting, and usually free, which is great, especially
>>> since they can teach a mechanic or develop or parody it so well. :) Good for
>>> teaching, for sure.
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> game_preservation mailing list
>>> game_preservation at igda.org
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>> Devin Monnens
>> www.deserthat.com
>>
>> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>


-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Fri Sep 25 11:17:51 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:17:51 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden
In-Reply-To: <op.u0tgi6sifmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
References: <4ABC40DA.2000502@multimedia.cx> <op.u0tgi6sifmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <4ABCDF1F.6090106@aarmstrong.org>

Neat info, I'm going to check out some of them links myself :) I might 
contact the IASAA about preservation formats too, since visual works 
haven't got a similar open source standard as FLAC, or a plain format 
like WAV, sadly (apart from possibly it'll be usually "what is shipped" 
or "what is available on promo disks and online" for videogames, but 
from a company/creator perspective this might be more important).

Andrew

Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
> dd works. If you want to save a tiny bit of space, you might also look 
> at using something to create a sparse image (empty sectors are not 
> copied.. probably less of a problem with CDs than HDDs). Ddrescue can 
> do this:
>
> http://www.forensicswiki.org/wiki/Ddrescue
>
> I would say getting a full image is first, before worrying about 
> separating the audio and data.
>
> When/if you do decide to preserve the audio separately, the 
> International Association of Sound and Audiovisual Archives
> recommends WAV or BWF. Regardless of format, they and ARSC recommend a 
> sampling rate of at least 96 kHz with 24 bit resolution.
>
> These may be of interest:
>
>
> The ARSC Technical Committee's preservation statement
> http://www.arsc-audio.org/pdf/ARSCTC_preservation.pdf
>
> and
>
> Essential Resources for Audio Preservation
> http://www.arsc-audio.org/pdf/ARSCTC_resources.pdf
>
> Formats, Evaluation Factors, and Relationships
> http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/intro/format_eval_rel.shtml
>
> I can't think of a good reason _not_ to use FLAC, but I'm happy to bug 
> a few A/V archivists I know if we think it's necessary.
>
> DEFT or BackTrack may come preloaded with imaging automation.
> http://www.deftlinux.net/
> http://www.remote-exploit.org/backtrack.html
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Fri Sep 25 11:26:14 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:26:14 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden
In-Reply-To: <4ABCC9A0.1030207@multimedia.cx>
References: <4ABC40DA.2000502@multimedia.cx> <4ABC81A2.2050701@aarmstrong.org>
	<4ABCC9A0.1030207@multimedia.cx>
Message-ID: <4ABCE116.5050005@aarmstrong.org>

Cool! It's a shame dd isn't actually more "low level" - ISOBuster on 
Windows can check for read errors, I'm surprised this can't (or at least 
log them).

As for FLAC, heh, the fact it can't be read in iTunes might suck might 
just be because Apple won't support every format (I wish foobar2000 was 
cross platform personally!).

I guess if the entire intention is to get the files in an easy to listen 
to format, I'd suggest adding an simple 128 static bitrate MP3 creation 
line, which would make quick and tiny files in comparison to the 
FLAC/Apple Lossless files (and easier to provide copies of for people). 
Could substitute OGG instead of MP3 because of the patent problems too 
(I don't know what the patent situation for Apple Lossless is 
personally, but for the lossy versions OGG is reasonable and doesn't 
involve a corporate overlord :) ).

I'll think of a good way to lay this out on the wiki and get some info 
up quickly (with of links of course). It needs a "proper look" - so 
addition of the pitfalls, nuances, other orgs working on it, and so forth.

The main thing is always, always to keep something that can be read back 
as the original source, but for CD's this is difficult for the 
videogames side when we get to the "CD check + copy protection" stage of 
PC development, which rely on badly wrecking CD standards, sigh.

Andrew

Mike Melanson wrote:
> Andrew Armstrong wrote:
>> Looking up the dd command it looks pretty simple to get an ISO of a 
>> complete CD and it seems to be able to log enough information - 
>> especially useful for those glaringly obvious read problems some CDs 
>> have (from being poor quality to scratches to mess on them - so the 
>> noerror might even want to be omitted so you can check out any read 
>> errors so the ISO isn't broken).
>>
>> One thing on the error sections, it doesn't seem to have a 
>> "repeatedly try reading data" option - odd, but I presume it does try 
>> more then once.
>
> I've used the 'dd' command on many occasions for this task and it 
> works well. It's not particularly low level. It just reads from the 
> device file, treating it as a regular file, and if there is anything 
> wrong, that's handled at the OS driver level. I have, in fact, gotten 
> faulty ISOs using 'dd' from heavily scratched discs.
>
>> The only site I know that has ISO's (or CD contents more accurately) 
>> is Textfiles, Jason Scott might have an automated solution he's 
>> willing to share, might be worth asking.
>
> This script should take less than 10 minutes to write and debug. I 
> just wanted to make sure I'm on the right track and that I have the 
> technologies covered. I once wrote another Python script that does a 
> similar thing with creating ISO/MP3 rips of Sega CDs that are suitable 
> for emulator play:
>
> http://multimedia.cx/eggs/sega-cd-ripper/
>
>> Oh, for audio too, yeah, FLAC would be the preferable one in my 
>> opinion next to the raw files themselves if you want to save space. 
>> FLAC is open, so it's a pretty good one for standards for getting to 
>> read it back later, lots of tools that read and write them.
>
> FLAC is nice for those reasons. However, the open source FFmpeg 
> program is also able to read and write Apple Lossless directly and 
> most lossless audio compressors perform more or less equally. Encoding 
> to ALAC has the benefit of being able to play directly in iTunes.
>
> Maybe I'll just encode to both formats. Lossless compressors generally 
> share the property of being blindingly fast to encode.
>
> Thanks...
>

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Fri Sep 25 11:29:58 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:29:58 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Arty Games
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909250744y3bd9c790pb3b84374d9960e1b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ABBB26C.9040604@aarmstrong.org>	<9d1cf2d50909241955l660bbd5fm71e6934b7ba1b6ac@mail.gmail.com>	<9d1cf2d50909242043r54e921a2g95d669e53c990217@mail.gmail.com>	<4ABC864B.2030007@aarmstrong.org>
	<9d1cf2d50909250744y3bd9c790pb3b84374d9960e1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ABCE1F6.3090808@aarmstrong.org>

Digital files are important not to lose, but the wording of the games 
title "Lose/Lose" implies that losing the game (it deleting itself) is a 
loss (besides my point that it probably implies the "player losing his 
ship" as the loss, which is more likely, and more boring ;) ).

The loss of such a game is in fact *not* a bad thing (just as if a virus 
deleted itself), and so saying it is losing makes no sense to me in that 
view. :)

Interesting, a decaying digital novel eh? Mmmm...

Reminds me also of the game from the indie game jam where you can be the 
only one playing (and if you join you kick the person currently playing 
off), and you had to simply last for X minutes, meaning then you had the 
most unique experience of being the only one playing that game at that 
time in the universe. :)

Andrew

Devin Monnens wrote:
> An interesting thought: William Gibson once wrote a digital novel that 
> would decay each time you opened it. Unfortunately for him, people 
> found a way around it. I don't know if there's a way around this (say, 
> loading it from a flash drive).
>
> Digital files do have value. For some, there may be only one copy in 
> existence (say a document you created). If you are afraid of losing 
> your files, there might be two reasons. 1. You haven't backed them up 
> yet. 2. It is a pain to reload your software. I have a combination of 
> these two...
>
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 2:58 AM, Andrew Armstrong 
> <andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>> wrote:
>
>     Heh, the game sure does question the worth of your digital files,
>     it's interesting, but not as effective as doing it for something
>     that simply can't ever be got back (although that applies more to
>     the real world where you'd be proving a point in the worst way
>     possible).
>
>     I think games title is a bit rubbish though. I personally think if
>     it calls itself lose/lose, it implies that the game deleting
>     itself is a loss (in addition to the stupid thought that dying in
>     a game is "losing", gah, what a silly think to say, but is
>     probably what he means), which if it is, heh, we might as well
>     start trying to save every other destructive program, such as
>     viruses ;)
>
>     Andrew
>
>     Devin Monnens wrote:
>>     Actually, Lose/Lose is particularly interesting to us digital
>>     media preservationists! I even blogged about it :)
>>
>>     http://deserthat.wordpress.com/
>>
>>     On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 8:55 PM, Devin Monnens
>>     <dmonnens at gmail.com <mailto:dmonnens at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Andrew,
>>
>>         Thank you for the info! The last arty game I played was a
>>         'Today I Die'-esque ludic poem about a guy walking and
>>         thinking about his girlfriend who dumped him. Sadly, I can't
>>         remember the name!! I also still have the Steam indie games
>>         collection to play through.
>>
>>         I am designing a course on game art (or videogames as art,
>>         rather), so these will come in handy.
>>
>>         -Devin
>>
>>
>>         On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Andrew Armstrong
>>         <andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>> wrote:
>>
>>             Thought this was a little bit interesting:
>>             http://www.stfj.net/art/2009/loselose/ - although as a
>>             technophile I'd play it only in a VM of course, heh ;)
>>
>>             There was also This Is The Only Level -
>>             http://armorgames.com/play/4309/this-is-the-only-level -
>>             which I'm sure you've seen, same kind of parody (or in
>>             fact, here, a little more of a design lesson) as
>>             Achievement Unlocked.
>>
>>             Anyone got any recent arty-like games (not just assuming
>>             anything by calling them this, but I hope you know what I
>>             mean). I've got a few in my backlog to play (Dear Esther
>>             and Korsakovia, Gravity Bone), once I feel like playing
>>             them, but I'm always looking for more.
>>
>>             As for how this relates to game history - well, frankly
>>             the quality varies but they're interesting, and usually
>>             free, which is great, especially since they can teach a
>>             mechanic or develop or parody it so well. :) Good for
>>             teaching, for sure.
>>
>>             Andrew
>>             _______________________________________________
>>             game_preservation mailing list
>>             game_preservation at igda.org
>>             <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>             http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         -- 
>>         Devin Monnens
>>         www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>>
>>         The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     -- 
>>     Devin Monnens
>>     www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>>
>>     The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     _______________________________________________ game_preservation
>>     mailing list game_preservation at igda.org
>>     <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From donahrm at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 11:53:32 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:53:32 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden
In-Reply-To: <4ABCE116.5050005@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4ABC40DA.2000502@multimedia.cx> <4ABC81A2.2050701@aarmstrong.org>
	<4ABCC9A0.1030207@multimedia.cx> <4ABCE116.5050005@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <op.u0tk3iqefmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>


> I guess if the entire intention is to get the files in an easy to listen  
> to format, I'd suggest adding an simple 128 static bitrate MP3 creation  
> line, which would make quick and tiny files in comparison to the  
> FLAC/Apple Lossless files (and easier to provide copies of for people).


Noooooooooooooooooooooo! MP3s/Ogg are fine for access, but you want  
lossless for preservation :)

From dmonnens at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 12:38:32 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:38:32 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden
In-Reply-To: <op.u0tk3iqefmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
References: <4ABC40DA.2000502@multimedia.cx> <4ABC81A2.2050701@aarmstrong.org>
	<4ABCC9A0.1030207@multimedia.cx> <4ABCE116.5050005@aarmstrong.org>
	<op.u0tk3iqefmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909250938t4627d37ahd6778df3bc55e8c9@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you all for an interesting and useful discussion! I kind of feel like
I'm late to the party! I will have to look at the links Andrew sent in more
detail. However, there are some guidelines I think you should keep in mind
before you begin this process.
Regarding formats:

NO! NO MP3s!! No OGGs!! You want a LOSSLESS format like FLAC or WAV. FLAC
has not been accepted by libraries and archives as a preservation standard
because it is not ubiquitous (LoC decided against using it because they had
increases in bandwidth and storage, but I don't know other reasons against
it). WAV is ubiquitous - I don't know of any audio player that won't run a
WAV file. It is also closest to CD native format. FLAC is supposed to be
superior: it has a smaller file size, it maintains metadata (including ID3
tags and checksums of the original WAV!), and it has error recovery
algorithms. FLAC is the standard among many audiophiles, particularly in the
game music archival sector. However: FLAC is not supported by a wide range
of players out of the box, and some won't even touch it (like Apple, in
their evil greediness). I would say avoid ALAC because it is a closed
standard. You have 800 games and a 750GB hard drive; file size is not going
to be an issue for you (even with multi-disc games), so you could go the
route of archives and just do it WAV. If you backed up everything in FLAC,
there's no guarantee you wouldn't have to convert everything back to WAV at
a later date...

Honestly, it's this hemming and hawing that has partially prevented me from
starting my lossless audio cd and game backup project.


Andrew and all:

The Library of Congress has a detailed description of each file format and
describes why particular formats were adopted.

http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/fdd/descriptions.shtml


Regarding extraction methods...

I would agree if you are looking at 800cds it would be best to find a system
to automate this. I have 'backed' up 100 Amiga discs using a copy program,
and that takes a LONG time at at least 8 minutes each (I got a lot of
reading done).

You can upgrade your machine so it has multiple disc drives. I have a friend
online who dumps audio CDs and game music for friends, and he has a tower
with something like 8 disc drives, so he can do something like 100 cds in an
hour. With 800 discs, spending another $60-$100 on new drives isn't going to
hurt.

Also, look at your discs before dumping. If it's scratched, set it in a
separate file, so you just do the clean discs first. Scratched discs will be
more time-intensive because you'd have to verify the read/write crc's for
authenticity. If the discs are too badly scratched, you might have to get
them buffed. If you lived in Denver, I might be able to set you up with a
deal at my work.


Format standards:

Another question becomes what standard to use. This depends on why you want
to preserve them, but I wonder if we shouldn't be adopting a format standard
for game backup (say ISO or ISO+WAV). I think ISO or any other virtual
drive-compatible system would be preferable so you can mount the discs, and
I think it is also good to be able to recreate the original format using
your backup file because that might also be useful in the future (say if
someone wants to run a game on original, restored, or rebuilt hardware).

One current 'standard' is that used by redump:

http://redump.org/guide/cddumping/

Redump uses a process-intensive method of extraction. They use MD5 checksum
files to verify, which I think should be a must for your project as well.
However, they never explain in detail why their system is used, unlike say
Slightly Dark's extraction method for CDs:

http://www.slightlydark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=850

To be legitimate, I think they have to explain in detail why the system is
used that way rather than just say 'this is the format we adopted, go use
it.' For doing 800 games, I think it would be useful to explain why you
backed them up the way you did.

Here is a list of PC games they have already dumped:

http://redump.org/discs/system/pc/region/U/


Metadata:

Decide what metadata you wish to include. Do you want to scan the discs and
the covers? This will add time and open up a new bag of formats. A widely
accepted preservation format is PNG.


Before you fully automate the process and go gung-ho backing up discs left
and right, you want to run tests on a few games to see if the process is
feasible. How long does it take to do a single disc? Is the process
determined to back up the disc correctly? Is the resulting file usable in
the way you want it? Once you have successfully evaluated a few test cases,
then it would be time to fully adopt the strategy.


On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue
<donahrm at gmail.com>wrote:

>
>  I guess if the entire intention is to get the files in an easy to listen
>> to format, I'd suggest adding an simple 128 static bitrate MP3 creation
>> line, which would make quick and tiny files in comparison to the FLAC/Apple
>> Lossless files (and easier to provide copies of for people).
>>
>
>
> Noooooooooooooooooooooo! MP3s/Ogg are fine for access, but you want
> lossless for preservation :)
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>



-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Fri Sep 25 12:55:49 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 17:55:49 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909250938t4627d37ahd6778df3bc55e8c9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ABC40DA.2000502@multimedia.cx>
	<4ABC81A2.2050701@aarmstrong.org>	<4ABCC9A0.1030207@multimedia.cx>
	<4ABCE116.5050005@aarmstrong.org>	<op.u0tk3iqefmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
	<9d1cf2d50909250938t4627d37ahd6778df3bc55e8c9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ABCF615.8080805@aarmstrong.org>

Not to be pedantic, but you both did read my email right?

"I'd suggest /*adding*/" (third paragraph, first sentence)

...refers to Mikes Python script. It'd be trivial to add a conversion 
line (assuming FFMPEG) to do a simple mp3 conversion in __addition__ to 
the FLAC/Apple lossless creation ;) I did say this was in addition to 
the FLAC, and typically if the file structure was setup correctly, it'd 
just make accessing the files trivial to quickly listen to or use. I 
hope this absolves me from this perceived notion I am completely insane. 
Probably wasn't too clear.

Good overview Devin (I'll check out your links too :) ), want to write 
it up for the wiki? :P Or do you mind being quoted? I don't want to list 
the technical aspects of formats (we have Mike's brilliant wiki to link 
to for that), but the whys for videogame and digital file preservation 
is a good thing to get noted down somewhere, and a mini-manual "how to" 
and "suggested ways" would be good to point people towards. As for CD 
file dumps, they can work, depending on the game - some don't like being 
installed from a random folder and need the CD as an ISO (or rather, it 
likely just needs the CD in a drive for copy protection checking). Will 
have to see if Daemon Tools and other sites has more in depth 
information on the copy protection aspects on released games. Won't 
likely apply to Mike's collection anyway :)

Andrew
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From dmonnens at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 13:10:41 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:10:41 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden
In-Reply-To: <4ABCF615.8080805@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4ABC40DA.2000502@multimedia.cx> <4ABC81A2.2050701@aarmstrong.org>
	<4ABCC9A0.1030207@multimedia.cx> <4ABCE116.5050005@aarmstrong.org>
	<op.u0tk3iqefmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
	<9d1cf2d50909250938t4627d37ahd6778df3bc55e8c9@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ABCF615.8080805@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909251010i7ef3c038ke0228f2017b085e@mail.gmail.com>

You can certainly quote me, but I don't think this is a polished guide. I
seriously think we need one as well as a discussion on what would be the
methods for backing up older games and CDs. The trouble though is that this
might make it seem like we are encouraging software piracy rather than
trying to determine how an archive might go about something like this.
Otherwise, an 800-disc backup would be an excellent case study.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

>  Not to be pedantic, but you both did read my email right?
>
> "I'd suggest *adding*" (third paragraph, first sentence)
>
> ...refers to Mikes Python script. It'd be trivial to add a conversion line
> (assuming FFMPEG) to do a simple mp3 conversion in _*addition*_ to the
> FLAC/Apple lossless creation ;) I did say this was in addition to the FLAC,
> and typically if the file structure was setup correctly, it'd just make
> accessing the files trivial to quickly listen to or use. I hope this
> absolves me from this perceived notion I am completely insane. Probably
> wasn't too clear.
>
> Good overview Devin (I'll check out your links too :) ), want to write it
> up for the wiki? :P Or do you mind being quoted? I don't want to list the
> technical aspects of formats (we have Mike's brilliant wiki to link to for
> that), but the whys for videogame and digital file preservation is a good
> thing to get noted down somewhere, and a mini-manual "how to" and "suggested
> ways" would be good to point people towards. As for CD file dumps, they can
> work, depending on the game - some don't like being installed from a random
> folder and need the CD as an ISO (or rather, it likely just needs the CD in
> a drive for copy protection checking). Will have to see if Daemon Tools and
> other sites has more in depth information on the copy protection aspects on
> released games. Won't likely apply to Mike's collection anyway :)
>
> Andrew
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>


-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From donahrm at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 13:21:52 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:21:52 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden
In-Reply-To: <4ABCF615.8080805@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4ABC40DA.2000502@multimedia.cx> <4ABC81A2.2050701@aarmstrong.org>
	<4ABCC9A0.1030207@multimedia.cx> <4ABCE116.5050005@aarmstrong.org>
	<op.u0tk3iqefmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
	<9d1cf2d50909250938t4627d37ahd6778df3bc55e8c9@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ABCF615.8080805@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <op.u0to6qeifmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>


> hope this absolves me from this perceived notion I am completely insane.

Come now, I would never suggest you were more than half-insane! Apologies  
for my hasty response.

If you don't mind waiting, PVW's final report (summer?) and MITH's  
Computer Forensics report (May) should both be good resources to link to  
regarding best practices for imaging and all that hoopla to avoid writing  
it up.

From lowood at stanford.edu  Fri Sep 25 13:15:51 2009
From: lowood at stanford.edu (Henry Lowood)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:15:51 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909251010i7ef3c038ke0228f2017b085e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ABC40DA.2000502@multimedia.cx>
	<4ABC81A2.2050701@aarmstrong.org>	<4ABCC9A0.1030207@multimedia.cx>
	<4ABCE116.5050005@aarmstrong.org>	<op.u0tk3iqefmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<9d1cf2d50909250938t4627d37ahd6778df3bc55e8c9@mail.gmail.com>	<4ABCF615.8080805@aarmstrong.org>
	<9d1cf2d50909251010i7ef3c038ke0228f2017b085e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ABCFAC7.4080300@stanford.edu>

All,

this project is seen as a backup solution, right?  Not as a long-term 
archival preservation solution?  This is not a criticism; I think there 
is a need for both.   If we could provide backup solutions to companies 
and individual collectors, that would be very useful.

Henry

Devin Monnens wrote:
> You can certainly quote me, but I don't think this is a polished 
> guide. I seriously think we need one as well as a discussion on what 
> would be the methods for backing up older games and CDs. The trouble 
> though is that this might make it seem like we are encouraging 
> software piracy rather than trying to determine how an archive might 
> go about something like this. Otherwise, an 800-disc backup would be 
> an excellent case study.
>
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Andrew Armstrong 
> <andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>> wrote:
>
>     Not to be pedantic, but you both did read my email right?
>
>     "I'd suggest /*adding*/" (third paragraph, first sentence)
>
>     ...refers to Mikes Python script. It'd be trivial to add a
>     conversion line (assuming FFMPEG) to do a simple mp3 conversion in
>     __addition__ to the FLAC/Apple lossless creation ;) I did say this
>     was in addition to the FLAC, and typically if the file structure
>     was setup correctly, it'd just make accessing the files trivial to
>     quickly listen to or use. I hope this absolves me from this
>     perceived notion I am completely insane. Probably wasn't too clear.
>
>     Good overview Devin (I'll check out your links too :) ), want to
>     write it up for the wiki? :P Or do you mind being quoted? I don't
>     want to list the technical aspects of formats (we have Mike's
>     brilliant wiki to link to for that), but the whys for videogame
>     and digital file preservation is a good thing to get noted down
>     somewhere, and a mini-manual "how to" and "suggested ways" would
>     be good to point people towards. As for CD file dumps, they can
>     work, depending on the game - some don't like being installed from
>     a random folder and need the CD as an ISO (or rather, it likely
>     just needs the CD in a drive for copy protection checking). Will
>     have to see if Daemon Tools and other sites has more in depth
>     information on the copy protection aspects on released games.
>     Won't likely apply to Mike's collection anyway :)
>
>     Andrew
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     game_preservation mailing list
>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   

-- 
Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
 Film & Media Collections
HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford CA 94305-6004
650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Fri Sep 25 17:01:50 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 22:01:50 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden
In-Reply-To: <4ABCFAC7.4080300@stanford.edu>
References: <4ABC40DA.2000502@multimedia.cx>	<4ABC81A2.2050701@aarmstrong.org>	<4ABCC9A0.1030207@multimedia.cx>	<4ABCE116.5050005@aarmstrong.org>	<op.u0tk3iqefmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>	<9d1cf2d50909250938t4627d37ahd6778df3bc55e8c9@mail.gmail.com>	<4ABCF615.8080805@aarmstrong.org>	<9d1cf2d50909251010i7ef3c038ke0228f2017b085e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ABCFAC7.4080300@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <4ABD2FBE.20005@aarmstrong.org>

Yes, this wouldn't be archival-standard stuff (Mike said it was just an 
external drive, like what I've got so I might use his script :) ). For 
archival quality we'd need, well, we'd probably not even bother 
discussing it here and just simply link to the relevant standards 
archives *obviously* all already have planned out. :)

Encouraging software piracy, well, depends, how can we get the data the 
archives need without breaking copy protection? (copyright is another 
thing entirely here too, of course). Something to take into account if 
we get into that area :)

Andrew

Henry Lowood wrote:
> All,
>
> this project is seen as a backup solution, right?  Not as a long-term 
> archival preservation solution?  This is not a criticism; I think 
> there is a need for both.   If we could provide backup solutions to 
> companies and individual collectors, that would be very useful.
>
> Henry
>
> Devin Monnens wrote:
>> You can certainly quote me, but I don't think this is a polished 
>> guide. I seriously think we need one as well as a discussion on what 
>> would be the methods for backing up older games and CDs. The trouble 
>> though is that this might make it seem like we are encouraging 
>> software piracy rather than trying to determine how an archive might 
>> go about something like this. Otherwise, an 800-disc backup would be 
>> an excellent case study.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Andrew Armstrong 
>> <andrew at aarmstrong.org <mailto:andrew at aarmstrong.org>> wrote:
>>
>>     Not to be pedantic, but you both did read my email right?
>>
>>     "I'd suggest /*adding*/" (third paragraph, first sentence)
>>
>>     ...refers to Mikes Python script. It'd be trivial to add a
>>     conversion line (assuming FFMPEG) to do a simple mp3 conversion
>>     in __addition__ to the FLAC/Apple lossless creation ;) I did say
>>     this was in addition to the FLAC, and typically if the file
>>     structure was setup correctly, it'd just make accessing the files
>>     trivial to quickly listen to or use. I hope this absolves me from
>>     this perceived notion I am completely insane. Probably wasn't too
>>     clear.
>>
>>     Good overview Devin (I'll check out your links too :) ), want to
>>     write it up for the wiki? :P Or do you mind being quoted? I don't
>>     want to list the technical aspects of formats (we have Mike's
>>     brilliant wiki to link to for that), but the whys for videogame
>>     and digital file preservation is a good thing to get noted down
>>     somewhere, and a mini-manual "how to" and "suggested ways" would
>>     be good to point people towards. As for CD file dumps, they can
>>     work, depending on the game - some don't like being installed
>>     from a random folder and need the CD as an ISO (or rather, it
>>     likely just needs the CD in a drive for copy protection
>>     checking). Will have to see if Daemon Tools and other sites has
>>     more in depth information on the copy protection aspects on
>>     released games. Won't likely apply to Mike's collection anyway :)
>>
>>     Andrew
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     game_preservation mailing list
>>     game_preservation at igda.org <mailto:game_preservation at igda.org>
>>     http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Devin Monnens
>> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>>
>> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>   
>
> -- 
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>  Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood 
> <http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From dmonnens at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 17:15:30 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 15:15:30 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden
In-Reply-To: <4ABD2FBE.20005@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4ABC40DA.2000502@multimedia.cx> <4ABC81A2.2050701@aarmstrong.org>
	<4ABCC9A0.1030207@multimedia.cx> <4ABCE116.5050005@aarmstrong.org>
	<op.u0tk3iqefmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
	<9d1cf2d50909250938t4627d37ahd6778df3bc55e8c9@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ABCF615.8080805@aarmstrong.org>
	<9d1cf2d50909251010i7ef3c038ke0228f2017b085e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ABCFAC7.4080300@stanford.edu> <4ABD2FBE.20005@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909251415j4223c981k462fd749caeec7fc@mail.gmail.com>

Or just ship everything to China :)
A system for individual users would be helpful. I wouldn't mind a system I
can follow to back up my own software.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

>  Yes, this wouldn't be archival-standard stuff (Mike said it was just an
> external drive, like what I've got so I might use his script :) ). For
> archival quality we'd need, well, we'd probably not even bother discussing
> it here and just simply link to the relevant standards archives *obviously*
> all already have planned out. :)
>
> Encouraging software piracy, well, depends, how can we get the data the
> archives need without breaking copy protection? (copyright is another thing
> entirely here too, of course). Something to take into account if we get into
> that area :)
>
> Andrew
>
> Henry Lowood wrote:
>
> All,
>
> this project is seen as a backup solution, right?  Not as a long-term
> archival preservation solution?  This is not a criticism; I think there is a
> need for both.   If we could provide backup solutions to companies and
> individual collectors, that would be very useful.
>
> Henry
>
> Devin Monnens wrote:
>
> You can certainly quote me, but I don't think this is a polished guide. I
> seriously think we need one as well as a discussion on what would be the
> methods for backing up older games and CDs. The trouble though is that this
> might make it seem like we are encouraging software piracy rather than
> trying to determine how an archive might go about something like this.
> Otherwise, an 800-disc backup would be an excellent case study.
>
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:
>
>> Not to be pedantic, but you both did read my email right?
>>
>> "I'd suggest *adding*" (third paragraph, first sentence)
>>
>> ...refers to Mikes Python script. It'd be trivial to add a conversion line
>> (assuming FFMPEG) to do a simple mp3 conversion in _*addition*_ to the
>> FLAC/Apple lossless creation ;) I did say this was in addition to the FLAC,
>> and typically if the file structure was setup correctly, it'd just make
>> accessing the files trivial to quickly listen to or use. I hope this
>> absolves me from this perceived notion I am completely insane. Probably
>> wasn't too clear.
>>
>> Good overview Devin (I'll check out your links too :) ), want to write it
>> up for the wiki? :P Or do you mind being quoted? I don't want to list the
>> technical aspects of formats (we have Mike's brilliant wiki to link to for
>> that), but the whys for videogame and digital file preservation is a good
>> thing to get noted down somewhere, and a mini-manual "how to" and "suggested
>> ways" would be good to point people towards. As for CD file dumps, they can
>> work, depending on the game - some don't like being installed from a random
>> folder and need the CD as an ISO (or rather, it likely just needs the CD in
>> a drive for copy protection checking). Will have to see if Daemon Tools and
>> other sites has more in depth information on the copy protection aspects on
>> released games. Won't likely apply to Mike's collection anyway :)
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> game_preservation mailing list
>> game_preservation at igda.org
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> --
> Henry Lowood, Ph.D.
> Curator for History of Science & Technology Collections;
>  Film & Media Collections
> HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford CA 94305-6004
> 650-723-4602; lowood at stanford.edu; http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood<http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing listgame_preservation at igda.orghttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>
>


-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From mike at multimedia.cx  Fri Sep 25 20:52:49 2009
From: mike at multimedia.cx (Mike Melanson)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 17:52:49 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden
In-Reply-To: <op.u0tgi6sifmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
References: <4ABC40DA.2000502@multimedia.cx> <op.u0tgi6sifmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <4ABD65E1.9080906@multimedia.cx>

Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue wrote:
> When/if you do decide to preserve the audio separately, the 
> International Association of Sound and Audiovisual Archives
> recommends WAV or BWF. Regardless of format, they and ARSC recommend a 
> sampling rate of at least 96 kHz with 24 bit resolution.

If you're digitizing from an analog source, 96 kHz/24-bit might be 
warranted. But this is just redbook CD audio which is already digital 
and is natively 44.1 kHz/16-bit stereo. That's what I would compress from.

-- 
     -Mike Melanson

From mike at multimedia.cx  Sat Sep 26 10:55:47 2009
From: mike at multimedia.cx (Mike Melanson)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 07:55:47 -0700
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden Redux
Message-ID: <4ABE2B73.8040207@multimedia.cx>

When I reformat this 750 GB RAID-1 box... what filesystem should I use? 
:) Eh, I'll probably just go with the default Mac OS journaling FS.

-- 
     -Mike Melanson

From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Sun Sep 27 12:19:30 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 17:19:30 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden Redux
In-Reply-To: <4ABE2B73.8040207@multimedia.cx>
References: <4ABE2B73.8040207@multimedia.cx>
Message-ID: <4ABF9092.50104@aarmstrong.org>

Yeah, I wish there was a good, journalled, cross-OS compatible 
filesystem for external drives/pendrives. I've got all of mine in NTFS 
with relevant system drivers installed on my Macbook, mainly because I 
primarily use Windows and Fat32 doesn't support large files and isn't 
very reliable (having seen the file table corrupted a few times 
essentially wiping that partition).

Andrew

Mike Melanson wrote:
> When I reformat this 750 GB RAID-1 box... what filesystem should I 
> use? :) Eh, I'll probably just go with the default Mac OS journaling FS.
>

From dmonnens at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 20:34:39 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 18:34:39 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden Redux
In-Reply-To: <4ABF9092.50104@aarmstrong.org>
References: <4ABE2B73.8040207@multimedia.cx> <4ABF9092.50104@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909271734j4c4b1a5ajc6bd30bb23ee5fa4@mail.gmail.com>

Sadly, M$ doesn't have a file format for very large files. Thankfully,
unless you're backing up DVDs, there's no need for a 4GB+ file. (or is it
1GB where the discs must be Windows-only?)

On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

> Yeah, I wish there was a good, journalled, cross-OS compatible filesystem
> for external drives/pendrives. I've got all of mine in NTFS with relevant
> system drivers installed on my Macbook, mainly because I primarily use
> Windows and Fat32 doesn't support large files and isn't very reliable
> (having seen the file table corrupted a few times essentially wiping that
> partition).
>
> Andrew
>
> Mike Melanson wrote:
>
>> When I reformat this 750 GB RAID-1 box... what filesystem should I use? :)
>> Eh, I'll probably just go with the default Mac OS journaling FS.
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>



-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From dmonnens at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 23:15:40 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 21:15:40 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] More Retro Machinima
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909272015j4f2f32cfha809d0dc76684924@mail.gmail.com>

Here is some more Japanese Retro Machinima (or maybe you can't specifically
call it machinima because it isn't recordings of gameplay) I can't recognize
everything, but it's pretty cool nonetheless!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEEfy0nt1fo

-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From donahrm at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 13:57:33 2009
From: donahrm at gmail.com (Rachel "Sheepy" Donahue)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:57:33 -0400
Subject: [game_preservation] Archivist's Burden Redux
In-Reply-To: <4ABE2B73.8040207@multimedia.cx>
References: <4ABE2B73.8040207@multimedia.cx>
Message-ID: <op.u0zat7mqfmh8gn@sherpa.umd.edu>

I'd suggest using NTFS or EXT3 just because far more  
imaging/backup/recovery programs support it than HFS+. Especially in the  
open source domain!

(this is coming from staring at specs on forensics software til my eyes  
fell out last week -- there are a few Mac specific packages and a few  
individual tools.. but not nearly as many as for others)

On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 10:55:47 -0400, Mike Melanson <mike at multimedia.cx>  
wrote:

> When I reformat this 750 GB RAID-1 box... what filesystem should I use?  
> :) Eh, I'll probably just go with the default Mac OS journaling FS.

From dmonnens at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 16:00:24 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:00:24 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] Fwd: FW: [socialissuegames] Serious games
	repository or reference list?
In-Reply-To: <LYRIS-730325-2040606-2009.09.29-15.47.44--dmonnens#gmail.com@listserver.dmill.com>
References: <LYRIS-730325-2040606-2009.09.29-15.47.44--dmonnens#gmail.com@listserver.dmill.com>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909291300v4f6adf0ck6f0ed7795c7521c1@mail.gmail.com>

Hi folks,
I believe this discussion is significant for everyone on this list - after
all, it deals with cataloguing and archival! An archive focusing on serious
games would be fantastic.

-Devin

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Marc Prensky <marc at games2train.com>
Date: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 1:46 PM
Subject: FW: [socialissuegames] Serious games repository or reference list?
To: Discussion of games addressing social issues <
socialissuegames at listserver.dmill.com>


 Hi all.



Given the interest, I have decided to bring my list back to life, revising
and updating it both going forward into the present (and future, if games
are in development), and backward (I had once made a list of 500 historical
serious games.)



In order to make this possible, I?d appreciate your sharing any lists you
have.  I will, as quickly as possible try to get them into one easily
accessible and searchable (and updated) place, open (without enrollment) to
all.



You can send things to marc at games2train.com.   Any suggestions for making
the www.socialimpactgames.com  site better or easier to use are welcome as
well.



Many thanks.



Best,

Marc





*From:* moses.wolfenstein at gmail.com [mailto:moses.wolfenstein at gmail.com] *On
Behalf Of *Moses Wolfenstein
*Sent:* Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:31 PM
*To:* Discussion of games addressing social issues
*Subject:* Re: [socialissuegames] Serious games repository or reference
list?



First off, to those of you who have pointed me towards some of the existing
resources, you have my heartfelt thanks. The gamesforchange database is an
awesome starter (one I really should have checked before asking the list)
and it looks like Marc Prensky's list, while it seems to be less current,
also covers a lot of ground.

At the same time, Brian makes a really good point here. I actually didn't
mean to suggest that there was an actual genre of "Serious games" with this
question, rather there are clearly numerous game genres (or variants of
genres) which can be considered under an umbrella category of "serious"
based on the intention of the designers. In fact, the topic of game genres
is actually an extremely sticky one even without this serious question, but
I'd like to just ignore that for now. If anyone really wants to unwrap the
Pandora's box of genre, start a new thread and I'll be happy to weigh in
with my 2?

The point I'm getting at is that while Civ (and more recently WoW for that
matter) have certainly been utilized as tools for learning, the primary aim
of the designers was to make a game that was fun. As a result the fine folks
at companies like Firaxis and Blizzard/Activision are operating under a
fundamentally different rubric for game design because they're not directly
concerned with learning. Now that learning objective might be for
training,consciousness raising, or even meeting instructional standards, but
designing games for any learning objective becomes a fundamentally different
task than designing a game strictly so that it will meet success in the
commercial market . . . and yes, there are the Peter Molyneux's and the
Jonathon Blow's of the commercial games industry who are also making art
(yet another sticky topic), but as long as they work within the commercial
games industry there's a bottom line which is not tied to whether or not the
audience is learning.

Is it actually correct to use the term Serious games to denote a category in
a manner that excludes commercial games (let alone mods of commercial games)
that can be utilized effectively for learning? That's not a question I
really have an answer for. After all, my current dissertation work is
looking at guild leadership in WoW, so clearly I don't draw a hard and fast
line in that respect, However, as a designer I needed some way of throwing
this question out to the list in a manner that would turn up some resources
for the sort of games we're looking for here in this current project at UW
to understand what has and hasn't worked in the development of games that
have a primary aim of representing concepts for the player in a meaningful
way as we consider making new games of this sort. That is, we are looking at
how other folks have answered questions like which commercial genres seem to
be amenable for different topics, and how have these sorts of attempts
succeeded or failed previously?

At any rate, I welcome further conversation on the topic, and if someone
hasn't weighed in yet with a list or database that covers ground that hasn't
otherwise been covered, I know that I'm not the only one on this list who
would be happy to hear about it ; )

Thanks again,
-moses


-- 
Moses Wolfenstein
Doctoral Candidate
University of Wisconsin, Madison
--- You are currently subscribed to socialissuegames as:
marc at games2train.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to
leave-2026068-96604E at listserver.dmill.com

---
You are currently subscribed to socialissuegames as: dmonnens at gmail.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to
leave-2040606-730325X at listserver.dmill.com



-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Wed Sep 30 13:19:46 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:19:46 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] More Retro Machinima
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909272015j4f2f32cfha809d0dc76684924@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9d1cf2d50909272015j4f2f32cfha809d0dc76684924@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AC39332.8070000@aarmstrong.org>

Hahaha, very good :)

Not sure what the "one true definition" of Machinima is (no doubt there 
isn't one!). Wikipedia is all over the place on it ;)

Andrew

Devin Monnens wrote:
> Here is some more Japanese Retro Machinima (or maybe you can't 
> specifically call it machinima because it isn't recordings of 
> gameplay) I can't recognize everything, but it's pretty cool nonetheless!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEEfy0nt1fo
>
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>   
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From andrew at aarmstrong.org  Wed Sep 30 13:21:13 2009
From: andrew at aarmstrong.org (Andrew Armstrong)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:21:13 +0100
Subject: [game_preservation] Fwd: FW: [socialissuegames] Serious games
 repository or reference list?
In-Reply-To: <9d1cf2d50909291300v4f6adf0ck6f0ed7795c7521c1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <LYRIS-730325-2040606-2009.09.29-15.47.44--dmonnens#gmail.com@listserver.dmill.com>
	<9d1cf2d50909291300v4f6adf0ck6f0ed7795c7521c1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AC39389.6090509@aarmstrong.org>

Interesting, see how they go with it since you're there already :) 
Different groups do this already (indie scene, art scene both have a few 
lists or websites for themselves), I'm glad to see the educational and 
more serious side take some form.

Andrew

Devin Monnens wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I believe this discussion is significant for everyone on this list - 
> after all, it deals with cataloguing and archival! An archive focusing 
> on serious games would be fantastic.
>
> -Devin
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: *Marc Prensky* <marc at games2train.com <mailto:marc at games2train.com>>
> Date: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 1:46 PM
> Subject: FW: [socialissuegames] Serious games repository or reference 
> list?
> To: Discussion of games addressing social issues 
> <socialissuegames at listserver.dmill.com 
> <mailto:socialissuegames at listserver.dmill.com>>
>
>
> Hi all. 
>
>  
>
> Given the interest, I have decided to bring my list back to life, 
> revising and updating it both going forward into the present (and 
> future, if games are in development), and backward (I had once made a 
> list of 500 historical serious games.)
>
>  
>
> In order to make this possible, I'd appreciate your sharing any lists 
> you have.  I will, as quickly as possible try to get them into one 
> easily accessible and searchable (and updated) place, open (without 
> enrollment) to all.
>
>  
>
> You can send things to marc at games2train.com 
> <mailto:marc at games2train.com>.   Any suggestions for making the 
> www.socialimpactgames.com <http://www.socialimpactgames.com>  site 
> better or easier to use are welcome as well.
>
>  
>
> Many thanks.
>
>  
>
> Best,
>
> Marc
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:* moses.wolfenstein at gmail.com 
> <mailto:moses.wolfenstein at gmail.com> 
> [mailto:moses.wolfenstein at gmail.com 
> <mailto:moses.wolfenstein at gmail.com>] *On Behalf Of *Moses Wolfenstein
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:31 PM
> *To:* Discussion of games addressing social issues
> *Subject:* Re: [socialissuegames] Serious games repository or 
> reference list?
>
>  
>
> First off, to those of you who have pointed me towards some of the 
> existing resources, you have my heartfelt thanks. The gamesforchange 
> database is an awesome starter (one I really should have checked 
> before asking the list) and it looks like Marc Prensky's list, while 
> it seems to be less current, also covers a lot of ground.
>
> At the same time, Brian makes a really good point here. I actually 
> didn't mean to suggest that there was an actual genre of "Serious 
> games" with this question, rather there are clearly numerous game 
> genres (or variants of genres) which can be considered under an 
> umbrella category of "serious" based on the intention of the 
> designers. In fact, the topic of game genres is actually an extremely 
> sticky one even without this serious question, but I'd like to just 
> ignore that for now. If anyone really wants to unwrap the Pandora's 
> box of genre, start a new thread and I'll be happy to weigh in with my 2?
>
> The point I'm getting at is that while Civ (and more recently WoW for 
> that matter) have certainly been utilized as tools for learning, the 
> primary aim of the designers was to make a game that was fun. As a 
> result the fine folks at companies like Firaxis and 
> Blizzard/Activision are operating under a fundamentally different 
> rubric for game design because they're not directly concerned with 
> learning. Now that learning objective might be for 
> training,consciousness raising, or even meeting instructional 
> standards, but designing games for any learning objective becomes a 
> fundamentally different task than designing a game strictly so that it 
> will meet success in the commercial market . . . and yes, there are 
> the Peter Molyneux's and the Jonathon Blow's of the commercial games 
> industry who are also making art (yet another sticky topic), but as 
> long as they work within the commercial
> games industry there's a bottom line which is not tied to whether or 
> not the audience is learning.
>
> Is it actually correct to use the term Serious games to denote a 
> category in a manner that excludes commercial games (let alone mods of 
> commercial games) that can be utilized effectively for learning? 
> That's not a question I really have an answer for. After all, my 
> current dissertation work is looking at guild leadership in WoW, so 
> clearly I don't draw a hard and fast line in that respect, However, as 
> a designer I needed some way of throwing this question out to the list 
> in a manner that would turn up some resources for the sort of games 
> we're looking for here in this current project at UW to understand 
> what has and hasn't worked in the development of games that have a 
> primary aim of representing concepts for the player in a meaningful 
> way as we consider making new games of this sort. That is, we are 
> looking at how other folks have answered questions like which 
> commercial genres seem to be amenable for different topics, and how 
> have these sorts of attempts succeeded or failed previously?
>
> At any rate, I welcome further conversation on the topic, and if 
> someone hasn't weighed in yet with a list or database that covers 
> ground that hasn't otherwise been covered, I know that I'm not the 
> only one on this list who would be happy to hear about it ; )
>
> Thanks again,
> -moses
>
>
> -- 
> Moses Wolfenstein
> Doctoral Candidate
> University of Wisconsin, Madison
> --- You are currently subscribed to socialissuegames as: 
> marc at games2train.com <mailto:marc at games2train.com> To unsubscribe send 
> a blank email to leave-2026068-96604E at listserver.dmill.com 
> <mailto:leave-2026068-96604E at listserver.dmill.com>
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to socialissuegames as: 
> dmonnens at gmail.com <mailto:dmonnens at gmail.com>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
> leave-2040606-730325X at listserver.dmill.com 
> <mailto:leave-2040606-730325X at listserver.dmill.com>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com <http://www.deserthat.com>
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> game_preservation mailing list
> game_preservation at igda.org
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/game_preservation
>   
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From dmonnens at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 20:34:42 2009
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:34:42 -0600
Subject: [game_preservation] More Retro Machinima
In-Reply-To: <4AC39332.8070000@aarmstrong.org>
References: <9d1cf2d50909272015j4f2f32cfha809d0dc76684924@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AC39332.8070000@aarmstrong.org>
Message-ID: <9d1cf2d50909301734t3ae0fe41y4c446846d1e9970f@mail.gmail.com>

I would say the bare bones is a video or film created using a game engine.
Performance need not be part of it (a real-time cutscene is machinima; a
pre-rendered cutscene is not). If this includes using game animations (like
say taking an Unreal or Halo character and sticking him in front of a blue
screen), then that broadens the definition (part of the film must be created
using a game engine). Spartan X probably doesn't count because the
animations are composed and compiled separate.

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:19 AM, Andrew Armstrong <andrew at aarmstrong.org>wrote:

>  Hahaha, very good :)
>
> Not sure what the "one true definition" of Machinima is (no doubt there
> isn't one!). Wikipedia is all over the place on it ;)
>
> Andrew
>
>
> Devin Monnens wrote:
>
> Here is some more Japanese Retro Machinima (or maybe you can't specifically
> call it machinima because it isn't recordings of gameplay) I can't recognize
> everything, but it's pretty cool nonetheless!
>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEEfy0nt1fo
>
> --
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com
>
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>
>
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>
>


-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
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