Henry,<div><br></div><div>Do you have a list of all (?) versions of the DOOM game that were released? This would include ports too I suppose. Actually, I'm kind of surprised there isn't an article on DOOM in HG101 - that sounds like a perfect series to cover.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Also, I hope you're going to publish a paper on this as a case study for game preservation! Remember, I'll be hosting a panel on it in Albuquerque in February. If we get enough people, it's possible we could do two sections.</div>
<div><br></div><div>-Devin<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Andrew Armstrong <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:andrew@aarmstrong.org">andrew@aarmstrong.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Cool answers ^_^ <br>
<br>
The robots.txt restrictions are a shame :( I wonder what the tool can
do to maybe just simply bypass that (I tried the archive's crawler
before, I think it has the option to bypass it - but I never tried it
much due to the way it worked in the end) - recording something that is
available and does download (after all, you don't get that kind of
thing from something like putting a book in a repository/library, heh),
but perhaps the key would be to not putting it online visibly ie; only
on the Stanford servers in this case, but accessible to researchers if
needed. You're right it is pretty arbitary when such robots.txt files
are applied though (game fan sites? huh? :/ ). Ethically, I don't see a
problem keeping offline or generally inaccessible online copies of a
page or site content if it was publicly accessible in the first place,
but I don't know about legal issues perhaps. I presume archives haven't
been sued over keeping offline/dark copies or screenshots of downloaded
web pages before.<br>
<br>
For the dates of things, I just was curious. I guess if it's not
mandatory for the bag system to have any of this in the first place,
then I guess there's little point :) I think the Archive-It tool adds
some as comments on the page source anyway. It's mainly a good thing
for dynamic pages - wiki's (notorious Wikipedia deleting content
arbitrarily for instance) new feeds, etc. where no date might be
visible, and digital copies of items like the games themselves - but
you have dates there :)<br>
<br>
The copyright was just a legal thing yeah. I guess one option is always
to scan/photograph the manuals, box art or whatever else will go in a
repository but sometimes, for that, you need to have the original item
or permission from someone who owns it, and some items are a lot rarer
then others (especially if you go for multiple languages). If you get
permission from the owner of the IP, no problemo I guess! They probably
have access to digital copies of such material even if there were not
ones available online. :)<br>
<br>
Thanks for explaining a little about the manifest system too. I presume
the Bag-It system is entirely digital based, and that it is going to be
digitally archived specially. It'd be great to hear more when you've
finished it :)<br>
<br>
Andrew<br>
<br>
Henry Lowood wrote:
<blockquote type="cite"><div><div></div><div class="h5">
Andrew,<br>
<br>
1. On the books. There are plenty of books on DOOM level editing and
programming. Trust me -- I still have a nice vertical pile of them on
the floor of my office at home. I won't say how high ...<br>
<br>
2. On the web links. We do have local copies for the sites we crawled
as part of our site. If you look closely and know how Archive-It
builds its links, you can tell which are normal crawls and which are
ours. I would say it's about 50-50.<br>
<br>
3. Also on the links, the reason for the live links is robots.txt
blocks on crawls. Classic Doom, for example. I have no idea why. Some
day when I have time, I will write to them and ask them to open it up.
Yes, whenever possible, I would point to an Archive-It or Wayback
Machine crawled version.<br>
<br>
4. Dates in the manifest. Actually, the manifest is not even required
for the Bag (we are using Bag-It for the file transfers). Our guru in
all things metadata/schemes is Jerome McDonough, who is on the list,
and he puts a ton of effort into mapping relationships and all that.
My perspective as a curator here in the archivist role is that some
sort of human-readable manifest belonged in the bag, so I just put it
there. It is not typical to do so, as far as I know. I thought
about dates, but this leads to another issue, which is that these
documents as standing alone here are really out of context. So, my
feeling is that if there is a date on the document, that should
suffice. A propos, keep in mind that the documents here that are not
actually DOOM are included as "context" for DOOM. Again, it's not a
research project or even a collection, really. After the bags are
delivered to the digital repository, we have the option of presenting
the material in a different way.<br>
<br>
5. In the last question, did you mean a problem as in a legal
problem? We asked id for permission to do this, and we got it.<br>
<br>
6. Thanks for catching the error.<br>
<br>
Henry<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Andrew Armstrong wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
Yeah, I was joking about the wiki, it's your document, hehe - you said
you have a wiki ;) perfect application unless you've got a good
relational database for processing entries like that :)<br>
<br>
I've got no documents myself on doom level editing - I dabbled a little
in it but that was, wow, years ago now, sorry. I'll leave it to someone
else to know of a good one, I am sure someone else on this list would
have a clue. I wonder if any of the DOOM books are related to level
editing directly. There I know there is a few on just DOOM itself - I
still need to read Masters of Doom, going to borrow it off a friend
sometime (who ranted it was a great book himself, popular one that :)
hehe).<br>
<br>
A few things if you want more comments - for the web links, perhaps
there should be secondary links to Archive-It copies of the resources
linked to directly (unless the implication is you have local copies
downloaded of them) - most of them are Archive-It or Wayback but a few
are just direct links at least (classic doom links, some mobygames,
planetdoom...). It seems more a mistake not having them - thus I guess
it's a standard practice to get an Archive-It copy to add it to a
manifest?<br>
<br>
Another thing is dates. Is it worth in a manifest listing the dates
items were either created or posted, or when they were looked at on the
internet? Most do have wayback implicit dates mind you, and in a list
that might not be appropriate I guess :)<br>
<br>
Finally - I just wondered, probably slightly related, but I guess there
is no cause for concern having items like the DOOM manual basically in
a manifest - ie; I presume a user-scanned copy of it (or maybe off the
CD versions?). For other games, links to unofficial translations for
ROM files, or emulation programs necessary to run something, etc.
always might need to be added, no problems there I hope - I've no idea
what the range of things the manifest should have in it is of course,
or what reasons there might be to not add anything (apart from the
obvious "you can't fit everything in, and not everything is of the same
importance").<br>
<br>
I also did thoroughly re-read it just now - you've got an error for
"MobyGames entry for Ultimate DOOM" copies the link from the above
entry.<br>
<br>
Andrew<br>
<br>
Henry Lowood wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
Andrew,<br>
<br>
I think you were kidding, but just in case: Please don't put it on the
wiki. It's a draft for comments. When all is said and done, we'll
have all the documentation up on our project wiki, at which point it
will be available for all sorts of pointing and clicking.<br>
<br>
On maps/levels in the manifest (at that time, the terms were in flux).
Since this version, the one document I have added is Forsman &
Kremeier's classic piece on BSP and DOOM rendering, plus there is the
Q&A on editing. But you're right, a tutorial on map/level design
would be nice. If anyone wants to suggest a good document on that
topic, I'll consider including it.<br>
<br>
Another point is that there is a fair-sized library of printed books on
that subject, which we can hope will still be available 100 years from
now.<br>
<br>
Henry<br>
<br>
Andrew Armstrong wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
Thanks for the advice, I did open it in Open Office but sometimes,
well, things do get mangled (whatever Microsoft format it is, mind
you). It's pretty basic text though, hooray :D I'm tempted to put it on
the wiki :)<br>
<br>
I liked reading the manifest. Covers all the areas I can think of
except I guess technical documentation and tutorials for how to build
levels for the game are kind of missing (so both technical
documentation on the game, and how to build things for the game). Not
needed for getting to know the game though.<br>
<br>
A very good example, certainly since it contains everything that would
be needed to literally install and play the game, with some good
important background pieces too.<br>
<br>
Andrew<br>
<br>
Devin Monnens wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">The latest Open Office seems to have .docx support. But I
still refuse to save anything in that format. This format shift has
caused nothing but troubles. I don't even see how it is supposedly
'better' than the old version. I have enough trouble trying to teach
students how to use the new Office without having to describe to them
how to 'save as' a document (yes, this is rocket science to them).
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Devin<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 4:09 PM,
Alan
Au <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:aau@alum.mit.edu" target="_blank">aau@alum.mit.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex"><br>
Microsoft released a compatibility tool a while back:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en" target="_blank">http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=941B3470-3AE9-4AEE-8F43-C6BB74CD1466&displaylang=en</a><br>
<br>
- Alan<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:59:40 +0100<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:andrew@aarmstrong.org" target="_blank">andrew@aarmstrong.org</a><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:game_preservation@igda.org" target="_blank">game_preservation@igda.org</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [game_preservation] DOOM manifest for PVW project<br>
<div>><br>
> I finally got some time to check this out, apart from it's DOCX,
and<br>
> darn shucks if I don't own that particular bit of software. Can
anyone<br>
> whip up a ODT or DOC version? :) I am interested in reading it.<br>
><br>
> (Proprietary formats for documentation of preservation practices,
let's<br>
> not even get into that argument/minefield, hehe).<br>
><br>
> Andrew<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
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<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Devin Monnens<br>
<a href="http://www.deserthat.com" target="_blank">www.deserthat.com</a><br>
<br>
The sleep of Reason produces monsters.<br>
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<br>
<div>-- <br>
<div><font face="Georgia">Henry Lowood, Ph.D.</font></div>
<div><font face="Georgia">Curator for History of Science &
Technology Collections;</font></div>
<div><font face="Georgia"> Film & Media Collections</font></div>
<div><font face="Georgia">HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall</font></div>
<div><font face="Georgia">Stanford University Libraries</font></div>
<div><font face="Georgia">Stanford CA 94305-6004</font></div>
<div><font face="Georgia">650-723-4602; <a href="mailto:lowood@stanford.edu" target="_blank">lowood@stanford.edu</a>;
<a href="http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood" target="_blank">http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood</a></font> </div>
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</blockquote>
<br>
<div>-- <br>
<div><font face="Georgia">Henry Lowood, Ph.D.</font></div>
<div><font face="Georgia">Curator for History of Science &
Technology Collections;</font></div>
<div><font face="Georgia"> Film & Media Collections</font></div>
<div><font face="Georgia">HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall</font></div>
<div><font face="Georgia">Stanford University Libraries</font></div>
<div><font face="Georgia">Stanford CA 94305-6004</font></div>
<div><font face="Georgia">650-723-4602; <a href="mailto:lowood@stanford.edu" target="_blank">lowood@stanford.edu</a>;
<a href="http://www.stanford.edu/%7Elowood" target="_blank">http://www.stanford.edu/~lowood</a></font>
</div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Devin Monnens<br><a href="http://www.deserthat.com">www.deserthat.com</a><br><br>The sleep of Reason produces monsters.<br>
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