From sla at ucolick.org  Tue Nov  3 00:04:11 2009
From: sla at ucolick.org (Steve Allen)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 21:04:11 -0800
Subject: [LEAPSECS] why not put leap seconds into zoneinfo?
Message-ID: <20091103050411.GA11419@ucolick.org>

Is putting leap seconds into zoneinfo really different than what
Argentina did last month, with something like one week of notice?

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsnews/idARN1634347520091016
(I love the certainty of that declaration -- "por el momento".
I'm left wondering just how fickle the decision can be.)

I'm sure that Daniel Gambis could be persuaded to give more notice
than that.

--
Steve Allen                 <sla at ucolick.org>                WGS-84 (GPS)
UCO/Lick Observatory        Natural Sciences II, Room 165    Lat  +36.99855
University of California    Voice: +1 831 459 3046           Lng -122.06015
Santa Cruz, CA 95064        http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/     Hgt +250 m

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Tue Nov  3 15:19:35 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:19:35 +0100
Subject: [LEAPSECS] why not put leap seconds into zoneinfo?
In-Reply-To: <20091103050411.GA11419@ucolick.org>
References: <20091103050411.GA11419@ucolick.org>
Message-ID: <4AF09057.4090708@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Steve Allen wrote:
> Is putting leap seconds into zoneinfo really different than what
> Argentina did last month, with something like one week of notice?
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsnews/idARN1634347520091016
> (I love the certainty of that declaration -- "por el momento".
> I'm left wondering just how fickle the decision can be.)
> 
> I'm sure that Daniel Gambis could be persuaded to give more notice
> than that.

It is obvious that there is no "FAQ for lawmakers on implementing new 
legal time legislation" detailing things like available options, needed 
time-lines etc for implementing new offsets, new rules for daylight 
saving time etc.

Having such a thing may sound a bit silly, but it can be a great way to 
educate people into how this information is being used and being applied 
in various systems.

I am not sure that the zoneinfo is the best place for this info, but a 
similar approach is being the leapsecond file, as NTP clients can get 
updates from NTP servers, which can be a rate higher than software 
upgrade/patching procedures may be for some infrastructures.

Cheers,
Magnus

From matsakis.demetrios at usno.navy.mil  Tue Nov  3 16:05:20 2009
From: matsakis.demetrios at usno.navy.mil (Matsakis, Demetrios)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 16:05:20 -0500
Subject: [LEAPSECS] why not put leap seconds into zoneinfo?
In-Reply-To: <4AF09057.4090708@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <20091103050411.GA11419@ucolick.org>
	<4AF09057.4090708@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <91772DEC8A29C048A9BFBE32C49CEB725D4E95@echo.usno.navy.mil>

Here is a babblefish translation of the link:

Buenos Aires, oct 16 (Reuters) - the Argentine Government will not change to the standard time east weekend, as it were predicted, said to Friday state agency T?lam, at moments at which the opposition of the provincial governments grew.

"At the moment, the president (Cristina Fernandez) decided not to change the time zone", said minister of Planning, Julio De Vido, mentioned by the agency of the news.

(Report of Karina Grazina, Published by Jorge Otaola)

-----Original Message-----
From: leapsecs-bounces at leapsecond.com [mailto:leapsecs-bounces at leapsecond.com] On Behalf Of Magnus Danielson
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 3:20 PM
To: Leap Second Discussion List
Subject: Re: [LEAPSECS] why not put leap seconds into zoneinfo?

Steve Allen wrote:
> Is putting leap seconds into zoneinfo really different than what
> Argentina did last month, with something like one week of notice?
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsnews/idARN1634347520091016
> (I love the certainty of that declaration -- "por el momento".
> I'm left wondering just how fickle the decision can be.)
> 
> I'm sure that Daniel Gambis could be persuaded to give more notice
> than that.

It is obvious that there is no "FAQ for lawmakers on implementing new 
legal time legislation" detailing things like available options, needed 
time-lines etc for implementing new offsets, new rules for daylight 
saving time etc.

Having such a thing may sound a bit silly, but it can be a great way to 
educate people into how this information is being used and being applied 
in various systems.

I am not sure that the zoneinfo is the best place for this info, but a 
similar approach is being the leapsecond file, as NTP clients can get 
updates from NTP servers, which can be a rate higher than software 
upgrade/patching procedures may be for some infrastructures.

Cheers,
Magnus
_______________________________________________
LEAPSECS mailing list
LEAPSECS at leapsecond.com
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/leapsecs

From sla at ucolick.org  Mon Nov 16 02:24:52 2009
From: sla at ucolick.org (Steve Allen)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 23:24:52 -0800
Subject: [LEAPSECS] leap second dating
Message-ID: <20091116072452.GA21615@ucolick.org>

the context speaks for itself

http://improbable.com/2009/11/16/leap-second-dating/

--
Steve Allen                 <sla at ucolick.org>                WGS-84 (GPS)
UCO/Lick Observatory        Natural Sciences II, Room 165    Lat  +36.99855
University of California    Voice: +1 831 459 3046           Lng -122.06015
Santa Cruz, CA 95064        http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/     Hgt +250 m

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Mon Nov 16 03:30:18 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:30:18 +0000
Subject: [LEAPSECS] leap second dating
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 15 Nov 2009 23:24:52 PST."
	<20091116072452.GA21615@ucolick.org> 
Message-ID: <53834.1258360218@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <20091116072452.GA21615 at ucolick.org>, Steve Allen writes:
>the context speaks for itself
>
>http://improbable.com/2009/11/16/leap-second-dating/

I can't wait to see what peer-review will do to that paper :-)

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From seaman at noao.edu  Mon Nov 16 08:31:58 2009
From: seaman at noao.edu (Rob Seaman)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 06:31:58 -0700
Subject: [LEAPSECS] leap second dating
In-Reply-To: <53834.1258360218@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <53834.1258360218@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <C6ECB16E-643A-4C18-BF31-AA8AE06F8EE6@noao.edu>

 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

> In message <20091116072452.GA21615 at ucolick.org>, Steve Allen writes:
>> the context speaks for itself
>> 
>> http://improbable.com/2009/11/16/leap-second-dating/
> 
> I can't wait to see what peer-review will do to that paper :-)

Perhaps accept it, see for example Deines & Williams 2007, AJ, 134, 64:

	http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/1538-3881/134/1/64/205167.text.html

Rob


From imp at bsdimp.com  Mon Nov 16 12:54:01 2009
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:54:01 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [LEAPSECS] leap second dating
In-Reply-To: <C6ECB16E-643A-4C18-BF31-AA8AE06F8EE6@noao.edu>
References: <53834.1258360218@critter.freebsd.dk>
	<C6ECB16E-643A-4C18-BF31-AA8AE06F8EE6@noao.edu>
Message-ID: <20091116.105401.32248625.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <C6ECB16E-643A-4C18-BF31-AA8AE06F8EE6 at noao.edu>
            Rob Seaman <seaman at noao.edu> writes:
:  Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
: 
: > In message <20091116072452.GA21615 at ucolick.org>, Steve Allen writes:
: >> the context speaks for itself
: >> 
: >> http://improbable.com/2009/11/16/leap-second-dating/
: > 
: > I can't wait to see what peer-review will do to that paper :-)

That paper isn't so good.  Lots of basic math, little real conclusions
other than the observation that 6.2 and 6.3 are about the same.  My
reaction is that it lacks something else to support the idea that this
calculation is valid (or it is so obvious that I don't see it at all
due to missing background).

: Perhaps accept it, see for example Deines & Williams 2007, AJ, 134, 64:
: 
: 	http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/1538-3881/134/1/64/205167.text.html

This paper is very interesting.  It is suggestive that scheduling of
multiple leap seconds (or scheduling out a number of years) could
produce acceptable results because the predominating effects are more
predictable than tidal friction.  While this doesn't fit with my
preferred solution to leap seconds (leap seconds should die and folks
that care about dUT1 should get it from the net or other source), it
does match well my first alternative solution: schedule the damn
things farther in advance than 6 months, preferrable 20x that (10yr)
to allow for better 'cold spare' recovery and increased robustness
in the execution of leap seconds...

Warner


From sla at ucolick.org  Mon Nov 16 13:34:26 2009
From: sla at ucolick.org (Steve Allen)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:34:26 -0800
Subject: [LEAPSECS] leap second dating
In-Reply-To: <20091116.105401.32248625.imp@bsdimp.com>
References: <53834.1258360218@critter.freebsd.dk>
	<C6ECB16E-643A-4C18-BF31-AA8AE06F8EE6@noao.edu>
	<20091116.105401.32248625.imp@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <20091116183426.GC9994@ucolick.org>

On Mon 2009-11-16T10:54:01 -0700, M. Warner Losh hath writ:
> : Perhaps accept it, see for example Deines & Williams 2007, AJ, 134, 64:
> :
> :     http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/1538-3881/134/1/64/205167.text.html
>
> This paper is very interesting.

Follow the citation trail, it spawned no less than two scathing
rebuttals from the folks involved with the IERS/IAU/relativity/earth
rotation communities.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008AJ....136.1909P
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008AJ....136.1906M

--
Steve Allen                 <sla at ucolick.org>                WGS-84 (GPS)
UCO/Lick Observatory        Natural Sciences II, Room 165    Lat  +36.99855
University of California    Voice: +1 831 459 3046           Lng -122.06015
Santa Cruz, CA 95064        http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/     Hgt +250 m

From imp at bsdimp.com  Mon Nov 16 13:59:18 2009
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:59:18 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [LEAPSECS] leap second dating
In-Reply-To: <20091116183426.GC9994@ucolick.org>
References: <C6ECB16E-643A-4C18-BF31-AA8AE06F8EE6@noao.edu>
	<20091116.105401.32248625.imp@bsdimp.com>
	<20091116183426.GC9994@ucolick.org>
Message-ID: <20091116.115918.-499439045.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <20091116183426.GC9994 at ucolick.org>
            Steve Allen <sla at ucolick.org> writes:
: On Mon 2009-11-16T10:54:01 -0700, M. Warner Losh hath writ:
: > : Perhaps accept it, see for example Deines & Williams 2007, AJ, 134, 64:
: > :
: > :     http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/1538-3881/134/1/64/205167.text.html
: >
: > This paper is very interesting.
: 
: Follow the citation trail, it spawned no less than two scathing
: rebuttals from the folks involved with the IERS/IAU/relativity/earth
: rotation communities.
: 
: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008AJ....136.1909P
: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008AJ....136.1906M

The abstracts look interesting.  Is there a way to get copies of the
articles without paying $9.00 each for them?

Warner

From dwmalone at maths.tcd.ie  Mon Nov 16 15:03:32 2009
From: dwmalone at maths.tcd.ie (David Malone)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:03:32 +0000
Subject: [LEAPSECS] leap second dating
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:59:18 MST."
	<20091116.115918.-499439045.imp@bsdimp.com> 
Message-ID: <200911162003.aa48536@walton.maths.tcd.ie>

> : http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008AJ....136.1909P
> : http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008AJ....136.1906M

> The abstracts look interesting.  Is there a way to get copies of the
> articles without paying $9.00 each for them?

I found copies through the university library - I'd guess most
universities or big libraries would have access. They make interesting
reading and have some nice historical information in them. Some of
the astronomers here did a tie-in between the 2008 leap second and
the IYA 2009. We read through these papers before writing the press
release ;-)

	David.

From imp at bsdimp.com  Mon Nov 16 15:42:32 2009
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:42:32 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [LEAPSECS] leap second dating
In-Reply-To: <200911162003.aa48536@walton.maths.tcd.ie>
References: <20091116.115918.-499439045.imp@bsdimp.com>
	<200911162003.aa48536@walton.maths.tcd.ie>
Message-ID: <20091116.134232.819495315.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <200911162003.aa48536 at walton.maths.tcd.ie>
            David Malone <dwmalone at maths.tcd.ie> writes:
: > : http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008AJ....136.1909P
: > : http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008AJ....136.1906M
: 
: > The abstracts look interesting.  Is there a way to get copies of the
: > articles without paying $9.00 each for them?
: 
: I found copies through the university library - I'd guess most
: universities or big libraries would have access. They make interesting
: reading and have some nice historical information in them.

Hmmm.  These papers are interesting reading.  They present some of the
clearest history of parts of this story that I've seen...  At least
the public story...

: Some of
: the astronomers here did a tie-in between the 2008 leap second and
: the IYA 2009. We read through these papers before writing the press
: release ;-)

Coolness.

Bummer that the original article was bogus and can't be used to
predict leap seconds better :(

Warner

From sla at ucolick.org  Mon Nov 16 15:59:25 2009
From: sla at ucolick.org (Steve Allen)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:59:25 -0800
Subject: [LEAPSECS] leap second dating
In-Reply-To: <20091116.134232.819495315.imp@bsdimp.com>
References: <20091116.115918.-499439045.imp@bsdimp.com>
	<200911162003.aa48536@walton.maths.tcd.ie>
	<20091116.134232.819495315.imp@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <20091116205925.GF9994@ucolick.org>

On Mon 2009-11-16T13:42:32 -0700, M. Warner Losh hath writ:
> Hmmm.  These papers are interesting reading.  They present some of the
> clearest history of parts of this story that I've seen...  At least
> the public story...

Regarding the story, it seems this is almost out

http://www.amazon.com/Time-Earth-Rotation-Atomic-Physics/dp/3527407804/

The table of contents looks like it tells a delicious amount
of the history.

--
Steve Allen                 <sla at ucolick.org>                WGS-84 (GPS)
UCO/Lick Observatory        Natural Sciences II, Room 165    Lat  +36.99855
University of California    Voice: +1 831 459 3046           Lng -122.06015
Santa Cruz, CA 95064        http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/     Hgt +250 m

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Mon Nov 16 16:02:31 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:02:31 +0000
Subject: [LEAPSECS] leap second dating
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:42:32 MST."
	<20091116.134232.819495315.imp@bsdimp.com> 
Message-ID: <65365.1258405351@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <20091116.134232.819495315.imp at bsdimp.com>, "M. Warner Losh" writes:
>In message: <200911162003.aa48536 at walton.maths.tcd.ie>

>Bummer that the original article was bogus and can't be used to
>predict leap seconds better :(

Ohh, but we can!

Leap seconds is just a political decision that can be changed, so
even if his theory is bogus, we can decide we like the outcome and
decide to do it anyway.

It's called "being congressional" or something...

Poul-Henning

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From lang at UNB.ca  Tue Nov 17 07:49:56 2009
From: lang at UNB.ca (Richard B. Langley)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:49:56 -0400
Subject: [LEAPSECS] leap second dating
In-Reply-To: <20091116205925.GF9994@ucolick.org>
References: <20091116.115918.-499439045.imp@bsdimp.com>
	<200911162003.aa48536@walton.maths.tcd.ie>
	<20091116.134232.819495315.imp@bsdimp.com>
	<20091116205925.GF9994@ucolick.org>
Message-ID: <1258462196.4b029bf49b6f4@webmail.unb.ca>

Quoting Steve Allen <sla at ucolick.org>:

> On Mon 2009-11-16T13:42:32 -0700, M. Warner Losh hath writ:
> > Hmmm.  These papers are interesting reading.  They present some of the
> > clearest history of parts of this story that I've seen...  At least
> > the public story...
> 
> Regarding the story, it seems this is almost out

November 25th, apparently.
-- Richard Langley

> http://www.amazon.com/Time-Earth-Rotation-Atomic-Physics/dp/3527407804/
> 
> The table of contents looks like it tells a delicious amount
> of the history.
> 
> --
> Steve Allen                 <sla at ucolick.org>                WGS-84 (GPS)
> UCO/Lick Observatory        Natural Sciences II, Room 165    Lat  +36.99855
> University of California    Voice: +1 831 459 3046           Lng -122.06015
> Santa Cruz, CA 95064        http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/     Hgt +250 m
> _______________________________________________
> LEAPSECS mailing list
> LEAPSECS at leapsecond.com
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/leapsecs
> 


===============================================================================
 Richard B. Langley                            E-mail: lang at unb.ca
 Geodetic Research Laboratory                  Web: http://www.unb.ca/GGE/
 Dept. of Geodesy and Geomatics Engineering    Phone:    +1 506 453-5142
 University of New Brunswick                   Fax:      +1 506 453-4943
 Fredericton, N.B., Canada  E3B 5A3
     Fredericton?  Where's that?  See: http://www.city.fredericton.nb.ca/
===============================================================================



From sla at ucolick.org  Thu Nov 19 14:35:03 2009
From: sla at ucolick.org (Steve Allen)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:35:03 -0800
Subject: [LEAPSECS] GPS, iPhone, daylight time in Brazil
Message-ID: <20091119193503.GU9994@ucolick.org>

Note that no leap seconds were required for this booboo:
An anecdotal description of why it's important to know what time it is,
and how daylight time can interact with GPS time ...

http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1448990&cid=30148314

--
Steve Allen                 <sla at ucolick.org>                WGS-84 (GPS)
UCO/Lick Observatory        Natural Sciences II, Room 165    Lat  +36.99855
University of California    Voice: +1 831 459 3046           Lng -122.06015
Santa Cruz, CA 95064        http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/     Hgt +250 m

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Nov 19 14:50:56 2009
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:50:56 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [LEAPSECS] GPS, iPhone, daylight time in Brazil
In-Reply-To: <20091119193503.GU9994@ucolick.org>
References: <20091119193503.GU9994@ucolick.org>
Message-ID: <20091119.125056.256407362.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <20091119193503.GU9994 at ucolick.org>
            Steve Allen <sla at ucolick.org> writes:
: Note that no leap seconds were required for this booboo:
: An anecdotal description of why it's important to know what time it is,
: and how daylight time can interact with GPS time ...
: 
: http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1448990&cid=30148314

Ah, the joys of time zones....

My 2G iPhone I guess is a blessing since it doesn't have GPS time :).
Of course, you don't know the exact time with GPS, potentially, for 28
minutes from a cool start too, but at least that's on topic of
leapsecond mailing list :)

Warner

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Thu Nov 19 17:55:03 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:55:03 +0100
Subject: [LEAPSECS] GPS, iPhone, daylight time in Brazil
In-Reply-To: <20091119.125056.256407362.imp@bsdimp.com>
References: <20091119193503.GU9994@ucolick.org>
	<20091119.125056.256407362.imp@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <4B05CCC7.5040600@rubidium.dyndns.org>

M. Warner Losh wrote:
> In message: <20091119193503.GU9994 at ucolick.org>
>             Steve Allen <sla at ucolick.org> writes:
> : Note that no leap seconds were required for this booboo:
> : An anecdotal description of why it's important to know what time it is,
> : and how daylight time can interact with GPS time ...
> : 
> : http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1448990&cid=30148314
> 
> Ah, the joys of time zones....
> 
> My 2G iPhone I guess is a blessing since it doesn't have GPS time :).
> Of course, you don't know the exact time with GPS, potentially, for 28
> minutes from a cool start too, but at least that's on topic of
> leapsecond mailing list :)

Actually, that is what you expect to be resolved from the normal AGPS 
that the combination of 3G iPhone and GPS actually is, which also 
happend to not operate correctly in this case. Ah well.

The 49,7 days blunder of Win95 had a recent re-occurance in the Motorola 
Android phone which autofocus is buggy in a period of 49,7 days, working 
properly for 24,8 days and non-functional the next 24,8 days. Both used 
32 bit counters of ms for system time, but Microsoft used unsigned int 
while the Motorola autofocus routine used signed int. Amusing in itself.

Cheers,
Magnus