[LEAPSECS] LEAPSECS Digest, Vol 45, Issue 29

[Finkleman, Dave]

I've been traveling and unable to respond to postings.  Sorry.

I submitted exhaustive comments to the Wayne's.   I just codified what I
said during the 16 Aug open conference call.  Surprisingly, they
considered them all and even incorporated some.  Perhaps this is a small
step forward.  I played my ISO TC20/SC14 card.  

Space News also promised to published very soon an editorial, "Time is
money" that Ken Seidelmann, John Seago, and I wrote.  I doubt that
attaching it to this email would work, but I will send it to those who
would like a copy.  We stressed for that community the unknown costs and
the confusion if the name were not changed. 

Dave Finkleman
Senior Scientist
Center for Space Standards and Innovation
Analytical Graphics, Inc.
7150 Campus Drive
Colorado Springs, CO 80920
 
Phone:  719-510-8282 or 719-321-4780
Fax:  719-573-9079
 
Discover CSSI data downloads, technical webinars, publications, and
outreach events at www.CenterForSpace.com.
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: comments on DRR TF.460-6 (Michael Sokolov)
   2. Re: comments on DRR TF.460-6 (M. Warner Losh)
   3. Re: comments on DRR TF.460-6 (Steve Allen)
   4. Re: comments on DRR TF.460-6 (Poul-Henning Kamp)
   5. Re: comments on DRR TF.460-6 (Robert Seaman)
   6. Re: comments on DRR TF.460-6 (Paul Sheer)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:42:57 GMT
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Subject: Re: [LEAPSECS] comments on DRR TF.460-6
To: leapsecs at leapsecond.com
Message-ID: <1009211542.AA10743 at ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Tony Finch <dot at dotat.at> wrote:


> Are there any requirements for mean solar time other than astronomy

and

> celectial navigation?


Yes: religion, philosophy and moral justice.

MS


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:15:21 -0600 (MDT)
From: "M. Warner Losh" <imp at bsdimp.com>
Subject: Re: [LEAPSECS] comments on DRR TF.460-6
To: leapsecs at leapsecond.com, msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG
Message-ID: <20100921.111521.460114267356660938.imp at bsdimp.com>
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii

In message: <1009211542.AA10743 at ivan.Harhan.ORG>
            msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) writes:

: Tony Finch <dot at dotat.at> wrote:

: 

: > Are there any requirements for mean solar time other than astronomy

and

: > celectial navigation?

: 

: Yes: religion, philosophy and moral justice.


I get the first two.  "Leap seconds must die," a phrase I've used,
expresses both of these first sentiments :)

But isn't moral justice independent of which time scale one uses?

Warner


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:45:53 -0700
From: Steve Allen <sla at ucolick.org>
Subject: Re: [LEAPSECS] comments on DRR TF.460-6
To: Leap Second Discussion List <leapsecs at leapsecond.com>
Message-ID: <20100921174553.GC2080 at ucolick.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Tue 2010-09-21T11:15:21 -0600, M. Warner Losh hath writ:

> But isn't moral justice independent of which time scale one uses?


Perhaps it's not the time scale, but how you use it.

I see the ITU-R being in the position of holding a "Get out of Jail
Free" card.  The ITU-R get to decide whom they are going to give that
card.  I see their choice as between folks who have been following the
letter of the existing TF.460, or folks who have been fudging the way
their systems follow that recommendation.

--
Steve Allen                 <sla at ucolick.org>                WGS-84
(GPS)
UCO/Lick Observatory        Natural Sciences II, Room 165    Lat
+36.99855
University of California    Voice: +1 831 459 3046           Lng
-122.06015
Santa Cruz, CA 95064        http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/     Hgt +250 m


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 17:58:25 +0000
From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk at phk.freebsd.dk>
Subject: Re: [LEAPSECS] comments on DRR TF.460-6
To: Leap Second Discussion List <leapsecs at leapsecond.com>
Message-ID: <72107.1285091905 at critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <20100921174553.GC2080 at ucolick.org>, Steve Allen writes:

>On Tue 2010-09-21T11:15:21 -0600, M. Warner Losh hath writ:

>> But isn't moral justice independent of which time scale one uses?

>

>Perhaps it's not the time scale, but how you use it.


You would be in a much better position to make this argument, if
the appropriate astronomical assembly would go in the record and
state that Harrisson solved the longitude problem first and best :-)

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
incompetence.


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:02:43 -0700
From: Robert Seaman <seaman at noao.edu>
Subject: Re: [LEAPSECS] comments on DRR TF.460-6
To: Leap Second Discussion List <leapsecs at leapsecond.com>
Message-ID: <ABE2D8E1-0376-49FA-A704-A4D381B82E34 at noao.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Tony Finch wrote:


> Are there any requirements for mean solar time other than astronomy

and celectial navigation?

Has anybody associated with the ITU crusade looked?  Failing to look is
not equivalent to performing a careful inventory.

Astronomy is not just a quirky avocation (that happens to deal with the
most fundamental questions of all), but a commercial enterprise.  Have
the various makers of professional and amateur telescopes and software
been contacted?  Of planetaria?  Of sundials for that matter?

There are requirements and then there are mere statements of fact.  The
calendar counts days.  The clock divides them up.  "Day" is a concept
tied to the sun.

Navigation is an activity critical to the world economy.  The assumption
appears to be that GPS has completely and utterly replaced all else.  Is
this true?  What about back-up systems?  What about implicit assumptions
buried in the architecture of the manifold systems on, say, airliners
and cargo ships?  UTC has been an approximation to UT since its
inception.  Universal Time as a concept is explicitly derived from
Greenwich Mean Time.  Perhaps there are no UTC gotchas hidden in the
millions of lines of code and vast numbers of procedures comprising the
modern world's many transportation systems.  Shouldn't somebody look
before we redefine a basic component of the system?

Several of us here were deeply involved in our organization's and
community's Y2K remediation activities.  Nothing similar has occurred
related to this naive, unnecessary, and unimaginative campaign.  The
risks are unknown.  Claiming there aren't any risks because you can't
think of any off the top of your head is woefully reckless.

Rob




------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 20:23:35 +0200
From: Paul Sheer <p at 2038bug.com>
Subject: Re: [LEAPSECS] comments on DRR TF.460-6
To: Leap Second Discussion List <leapsecs at leapsecond.com>
Message-ID: <1285093415.30733.8.camel at localhost>
Content-Type: text/plain



> Are there any requirements for mean solar time other than astronomy

and

> celectial navigation?

> 


Even if you can't find any important requirements,

if decoupling UTC from UT1 turns out later to be a mistake,
then it's not like an oil spill that you can easily undo
with time and money.

-paul







------------------------------

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