From jurgens.dutoit at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 08:23:30 2008 From: jurgens.dutoit at gmail.com (Jurgens du Toit) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:23:30 +0200 Subject: Syntax Questions Message-ID: <12cc0b6c0807170523t408126fbv617ee8b13e8a2079@mail.gmail.com> Hey :) Is it a bug or a feature that the following two texts get formatted differently? My shopping list + Bread + Milk + Cheese My shopping list + Bread + Milk + Cheese In the first one, the list doesn't get converted to an unordered list, while in the second, it does... It occurs in both markdown and markdown extra, btw. J -- Website: www.jrgns.net If people never did silly things, nothing intelligent would ever get done. - Ludwig Wittgenstein -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pagaltzis at gmx.de Thu Jul 17 09:31:21 2008 From: pagaltzis at gmx.de (Aristotle Pagaltzis) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:31:21 +0200 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: <12cc0b6c0807170523t408126fbv617ee8b13e8a2079@mail.gmail.com> References: <12cc0b6c0807170523t408126fbv617ee8b13e8a2079@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080717133121.GH2468@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> * Jurgens du Toit [2008-07-17 14:25]: > Is it a bug or a feature that the following two texts get > formatted differently? That?s on purpose. To make a list, it needs to be in a separate paragraph. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From daniel.winterstein at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 09:41:51 2008 From: daniel.winterstein at gmail.com (Daniel Winterstein) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:41:51 +0100 Subject: Markdown Editor plugin for Eclipse Message-ID: Hello, I'd like to announce an improved version of my Markdown Editor plugin for the popular Eclipse Java + everything else IDE. The Markdown plugin has moved from it's old location. The new location is: http://winterwell.com/software/markdown-editor.php There's syntax highlighting, a preview window, and it can export to html. The best feature is the document outline, which is a joy for editing large documents. Plus you can use TODO tags and these get picked up as tasks, and an emacs-style text formatting tool. All the best, - Daniel -- "I know nothing, understand less, & most of that is wrong." Daniel Winterstein Edinburgh From jurgens.dutoit at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 09:49:10 2008 From: jurgens.dutoit at gmail.com (Jurgens du Toit) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:49:10 +0200 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: <20080717133121.GH2468@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> References: <12cc0b6c0807170523t408126fbv617ee8b13e8a2079@mail.gmail.com> <20080717133121.GH2468@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> Message-ID: <12cc0b6c0807170649u2a7c86bch5c606a5aab938d3b@mail.gmail.com> Ok. Is it possible to modify the code to do that? Can you point me in the right direction? It's something I'd realy like to be able to do, even if it is a configurable options. Another thing, is it possible to convert newlines to
tags? I tried nl2br before and after passing the string to markdown, but either way there's to many br tags then. Thanx! J On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 3:31 PM, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: > * Jurgens du Toit [2008-07-17 14:25]: > > Is it a bug or a feature that the following two texts get > > formatted differently? > > That's on purpose. To make a list, it needs to be in a separate > paragraph. > > Regards, > -- > Aristotle Pagaltzis // > _______________________________________________ > Markdown-Discuss mailing list > Markdown-Discuss at six.pairlist.net > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss > -- Website: www.jrgns.net If people never did silly things, nothing intelligent would ever get done. - Ludwig Wittgenstein -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmg3000 at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 10:11:34 2008 From: jmg3000 at gmail.com (John Gabriele) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:11:34 -0400 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: <12cc0b6c0807170649u2a7c86bch5c606a5aab938d3b@mail.gmail.com> References: <12cc0b6c0807170523t408126fbv617ee8b13e8a2079@mail.gmail.com> <20080717133121.GH2468@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <12cc0b6c0807170649u2a7c86bch5c606a5aab938d3b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65e0bb520807170711o3d6be8e8xb6d15f90ce9384bc@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 9:49 AM, Jurgens du Toit wrote: > Ok. > > Is it possible to modify the code to do that? Very probably, but you may not want to. My impression is that there's a lot of tradeoffs in Markdown between it trying to do what you mean and it requiring non-ambiguous markup. For example, if you've got a paragraph with a plus sign in it, and you have your editor re-wrap it, you might end up with a line starting with that plus sign. You wouldn't want Markdown to think it's a one-item list. It's also not terribly easy to read without that leading newline. > Can you point me in the right > direction? You might look in the `_DoLists` function. > It's something I'd realy like to be able to do, even if it is a configurable > options. > > Another thing, is it possible to convert newlines to
tags? I tried > nl2br before and after passing the string to markdown, but either way > there's to many br tags then. You can end a line with 2 or more spaces and it will create a
for you. ---John From jurgens.dutoit at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 14:12:51 2008 From: jurgens.dutoit at gmail.com (Jurgens du Toit) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:12:51 +0200 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: <65e0bb520807170711o3d6be8e8xb6d15f90ce9384bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <12cc0b6c0807170523t408126fbv617ee8b13e8a2079@mail.gmail.com> <20080717133121.GH2468@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <12cc0b6c0807170649u2a7c86bch5c606a5aab938d3b@mail.gmail.com> <65e0bb520807170711o3d6be8e8xb6d15f90ce9384bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <12cc0b6c0807171112u42c06293s81c29287e3884652@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 4:11 PM, John Gabriele wrote: > On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 9:49 AM, Jurgens du Toit > wrote: > > Ok. > > > > Is it possible to modify the code to do that? > > Very probably, but you may not want to. My impression is that there's > a lot of tradeoffs in Markdown between it trying to do what you mean > and it requiring non-ambiguous markup. For example, if you've got a > paragraph with a plus sign in it, and you have your editor re-wrap it, > you might end up with a line starting with that plus sign. You > wouldn't want Markdown to think it's a one-item list. I understand it to be tricky. I'll play around, and, if I don't like it, adapt and learn! > > > It's also not terribly easy to read without that leading newline. > > > Can you point me in the right > > direction? > > You might look in the `_DoLists` function. Schweet, will do. > > > > It's something I'd realy like to be able to do, even if it is a > configurable > > options. > > > > Another thing, is it possible to convert newlines to
tags? I tried > > nl2br before and after passing the string to markdown, but either way > > there's to many br tags then. > > You can end a line with 2 or more spaces and it will create a
for > you. Didn't know that one, but, once again, not exactly what I want. Darn 'it, looks like I'll have to adapt... Any special reason why single newlines don't get converted to
? I'm thinking that if it happens right at the end of the manipulations, and newlines between closing and opening block tags (such as <\p>\n

) get ignored, it will work? Or, actually more simple, only newlines between certain tags, such as p and div? J > > > ---John > _______________________________________________ > Markdown-Discuss mailing list > Markdown-Discuss at six.pairlist.net > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss > -- Jurgens du Toit Cell: +27 83 511 7932 Fax: +27 86 503 2637 Website: www.jrgns.net If people never did silly things, nothing intelligent would ever get done. - Ludwig Wittgenstein -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lists at mostrom.pp.se Thu Jul 17 16:00:40 2008 From: lists at mostrom.pp.se (=?UTF-8?Q?Ja=6E_E=72ik_M=6Fs=74=72=C3=B6?= =?UTF-8?Q?m?=) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:00:40 +0200 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: <12cc0b6c0807171112u42c06293s81c29287e3884652@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jurgens du Toit 08-07-17 20.12 >Any special reason why single newlines don't get converted to
? I'm >thinking that if it happens right at the end of the manipulations, and >newlines between closing and opening block tags (such as <\p>\n

) get >ignored, it will work? Or, actually more simple, only newlines between >certain tags, such as p and div? I'm not sure I understand, do you mean that you want a text like this: This is just an example text to be translated into

This is just
an example
text

Or am I misunderstanding things? jem -- Jan Erik Mostr?m, www.mostrom.pp.se From jurgens.dutoit at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 16:13:01 2008 From: jurgens.dutoit at gmail.com (Jurgens du Toit) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:13:01 +0200 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: References: <12cc0b6c0807171112u42c06293s81c29287e3884652@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <12cc0b6c0807171313rf2bff18jc28650c39a896073@mail.gmail.com> Exactly that, yes. On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 10:00 PM, Jan Erik Mostr?m wrote: > Jurgens du Toit 08-07-17 20.12 > > Any special reason why single newlines don't get converted to
? I'm >> thinking that if it happens right at the end of the manipulations, and >> newlines between closing and opening block tags (such as <\p>\n

) get >> ignored, it will work? Or, actually more simple, only newlines between >> certain tags, such as p and div? >> > > I'm not sure I understand, do you mean that you want a text like this: > > This is just > an example > text > > to be translated into > >

> This is just
> an example
> text
>

> > Or am I misunderstanding things? > > jem > -- > Jan Erik Mostr?m, www.mostrom.pp.se > > > _______________________________________________ > Markdown-Discuss mailing list > Markdown-Discuss at six.pairlist.net > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss > -- Jurgens du Toit Cell: +27 83 511 7932 Fax: +27 86 503 2637 Website: www.jrgns.net If people never did silly things, nothing intelligent would ever get done. - Ludwig Wittgenstein -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lists at mostrom.pp.se Thu Jul 17 16:41:09 2008 From: lists at mostrom.pp.se (=?UTF-8?Q?Ja=6E_E=72ik_M=6Fs=74=72=C3=B6?= =?UTF-8?Q?m?=) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:41:09 +0200 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: <12cc0b6c0807171313rf2bff18jc28650c39a896073@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jurgens du Toit 08-07-17 22.13 >Exactly that, yes. Well, there is a good reason why Markdown doesn't do this. Many prefer to use a plain text editor which doesn't wrap text (I for example prefer my text files this way) and we insert hard new lines to keep the lines from becoming too long. If those hard newlines were translated into
Markdown would be useless for a lot of people. (and I don't think there is an option to get it to behave the way you want) jem -- Jan Erik Mostr?m, www.mostrom.pp.se From michel.fortin at michelf.com Thu Jul 17 21:49:18 2008 From: michel.fortin at michelf.com (Michel Fortin) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:49:18 -0400 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: <65e0bb520807170711o3d6be8e8xb6d15f90ce9384bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <12cc0b6c0807170523t408126fbv617ee8b13e8a2079@mail.gmail.com> <20080717133121.GH2468@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <12cc0b6c0807170649u2a7c86bch5c606a5aab938d3b@mail.gmail.com> <65e0bb520807170711o3d6be8e8xb6d15f90ce9384bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <07F81C7A-AA5B-421B-BED1-27D11C49B4D5@michelf.com> Le 2008-07-17 ? 10:11, John Gabriele a ?crit : > On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 9:49 AM, Jurgens du Toit > wrote: >> Ok. >> >> Is it possible to modify the code to do that? > > Very probably, but you may not want to. My impression is that there's > a lot of tradeoffs in Markdown between it trying to do what you mean > and it requiring non-ambiguous markup. For example, if you've got a > paragraph with a plus sign in it, and you have your editor re-wrap it, > you might end up with a line starting with that plus sign. You > wouldn't want Markdown to think it's a one-item list. Well, that's almost the exact reason this was changed, a long time ago now. The problem was with sentences finishing with a number in the middle of a hard-wrapped paragraph. For instance, I could say: "I want 2. He wants 3.", and then you'd have a strange list popping in the middle of your otherwise normal paragraph. The requirement of a blank line goes away when a list is nested in another, so you can write nice-looking hierarchical lists: 1. Test * Test * Test Michel Fortin michel.fortin at michelf.com http://michelf.com/ From michel.fortin at michelf.com Thu Jul 17 21:50:20 2008 From: michel.fortin at michelf.com (Michel Fortin) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:50:20 -0400 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Le 2008-07-17 ? 16:41, Jan Erik Mostr?m a ?crit : > Well, there is a good reason why Markdown doesn't do this. Many > prefer to use a plain text editor which doesn't wrap text (I for > example prefer my text files this way) and we insert hard new lines > to keep the lines from becoming too long. If those hard newlines > were translated into
Markdown would be useless for a lot of > people. That's one reason. Personally, I often generally don't write hard- wrapped paragraphs... except inside lists and blockquotes where I wants things aligned properly in the source text. For instance, I don't want my text editor to wrap automatically my like item like this: 1. First item of a list with two lines worth wasted text for your reading pleasure. So I indent correctly the second line to make it better looking and easier to write: 1. First item of a list with two lines worth wasted text for your reading pleasure. By doing this, I'm inserting a newline character at the end of each line. If Markdown was adding a line break there, then I'd be forced to write the bad-looking version, reducing readability of the source text. The same applies to blockquotes: > This and that and this and that and this > and that and this. You couldn't indent each line with a ">" if Markdown was to convert every newline to a `
`. > (and I don't think there is an option to get it to behave the way > you want) No there isn't one. Michel Fortin michel.fortin at michelf.com http://michelf.com/ From jurgens.dutoit at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 05:13:02 2008 From: jurgens.dutoit at gmail.com (Jurgens du Toit) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:13:02 +0200 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: <12cc0b6c0807180213s5bfb33btec28c8ea0e0eb9eb@mail.gmail.com> Kewl. If you look at a formatter like tidy, it's got a lot of options where you can turn certain behaviour on and off, making it much more useable for a lot of people. Wouldn't it improve the usability of Markdown if these kind of options were present? J On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 3:50 AM, Michel Fortin wrote: > Le 2008-07-17 ? 16:41, Jan Erik Mostr?m a ?crit : > > Well, there is a good reason why Markdown doesn't do this. Many prefer to >> use a plain text editor which doesn't wrap text (I for example prefer my >> text files this way) and we insert hard new lines to keep the lines from >> becoming too long. If those hard newlines were translated into
>> Markdown would be useless for a lot of people. >> > > That's one reason. Personally, I often generally don't write hard-wrapped > paragraphs... except inside lists and blockquotes where I wants things > aligned properly in the source text. > > For instance, I don't want my text editor to wrap automatically my like > item like this: > > 1. First item of a list with two lines worth wasted text > for your reading pleasure. > > So I indent correctly the second line to make it better looking and easier > to write: > > 1. First item of a list with two lines worth wasted text > for your reading pleasure. > > By doing this, I'm inserting a newline character at the end of each line. > If Markdown was adding a line break there, then I'd be forced to write the > bad-looking version, reducing readability of the source text. > > The same applies to blockquotes: > > > This and that and this and that and this > > and that and this. > > You couldn't indent each line with a ">" if Markdown was to convert every > newline to a `
`. > > > (and I don't think there is an option to get it to behave the way you >> want) >> > > > No there isn't one. > > > Michel Fortin > michel.fortin at michelf.com > http://michelf.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Markdown-Discuss mailing list > Markdown-Discuss at six.pairlist.net > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss > -- Jurgens du Toit Cell: +27 83 511 7932 Fax: +27 86 503 2637 Website: www.jrgns.net If people never did silly things, nothing intelligent would ever get done. - Ludwig Wittgenstein -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michel.fortin at michelf.com Fri Jul 18 07:18:07 2008 From: michel.fortin at michelf.com (Michel Fortin) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 07:18:07 -0400 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: <12cc0b6c0807180213s5bfb33btec28c8ea0e0eb9eb@mail.gmail.com> References:

<12cc0b6c0807180213s5bfb33btec28c8ea0e0eb9eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35A8D8B7-1384-4027-B908-98E61704908F@michelf.com> Le 2008-07-18 ? 5:13, Jurgens du Toit a ?crit : > Kewl. > > If you look at a formatter like tidy, it's got a lot of options > where you > can turn certain behaviour on and off, making it much more useable > for a lot > of people. Wouldn't it improve the usability of Markdown if these > kind of > options were present? The more options, the more difficult to test, because each input can have more than one output. There are some configurable things in PHP Markdown, but I can attest they are under-tested compared to the regular syntax. Moreover, with each option affecting how the Markdown source is parsed, you multiply per two the number of variants of the language in the wild. Currently, if I encounter a text box on a web page claiming to be Markdown-formatted I can be pretty sure of the output I'll get for what I write. If Markdown had one option turning each newline in one HTML line break, then writing in that textbox is guesswork. Hopefully, the form author will tell which options are on and which are off -- something like "Markdown + automatic line breaks" in our case -- but the more options, the less practical it is for authors to write this extra info, or for users to read it, because the length of the description would become intimidating. Which means that if you modify Markdown to change some of its behaviour, please don't call it plainly "Markdown". "Markdown + automatic line breaks" explains clearly what your text field does differently from Markdown and will avoid surprises for your visitors. - - - Now, if you still want to do a hard break at each newline with PHP Markdown, go to the `doHardBreaks` function and change this expression: / {2,}\n/ for this one: /\n/ and I expect it should do the trick. This is totally untested however. And I don't plan to add an option like this to future versions. Michel Fortin michel.fortin at michelf.com http://michelf.com/ From jacobolus at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 07:32:30 2008 From: jacobolus at gmail.com (Jacob Rus) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 04:32:30 -0700 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: <12cc0b6c0807180213s5bfb33btec28c8ea0e0eb9eb@mail.gmail.com> References:

<12cc0b6c0807180213s5bfb33btec28c8ea0e0eb9eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jurgens du Toit wrote: > If you look at a formatter like tidy, it's got a lot of options where you > can turn certain behaviour on and off, making it much more useable for a lot > of people. Wouldn't it improve the usability of Markdown if these kind of > options were present? No, it would be a compatibility nightmare, for no benefit. > Another thing, is it possible to convert newlines to
tags? I tried > nl2br before and after passing the string to markdown, but either way > there's to many br tags then. Put two spaces at the end of a line to insert a line break like this. > Is it a bug or a feature that the following two texts get formatted > differently? > > My shopping list > + Bread > + Milk > + Cheese It is most definitely a feature. Imagine you had text something like: To calculate the result, we add the two numbers 5 + 6, and we obtain the sum 11. Then we compute 11 - 2. It would be horribly inconvenient if this was interpreted as a list. (Forgive the contrived example.) -Jacob From jurgens.dutoit at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 03:02:37 2008 From: jurgens.dutoit at gmail.com (Jurgens du Toit) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:02:37 +0200 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: <35A8D8B7-1384-4027-B908-98E61704908F@michelf.com> References:

<12cc0b6c0807180213s5bfb33btec28c8ea0e0eb9eb@mail.gmail.com> <35A8D8B7-1384-4027-B908-98E61704908F@michelf.com> Message-ID: <12cc0b6c0807210002x72c79b45rb6c2c85d217c6c7e@mail.gmail.com> I'm just throwing ideas around... I don't think that if something is difficult to test, it shouldn't be implemented. It would be the same as saying that to bake is too difficult, so I'll just go without the cake. I do, however, agree with the fact that if you get different versions of Markdown out in the wild, it would confuse users as to which version this particular one is, and which syntax to use. Thanx for the hardbreaks code. Last question on this topic. This will make absolutely no difference in which syntax you use, or the eventual presentation, be it HTML or plain text: When I nl2br (in PHP) a string returned from Markdown, there's a lot of extra or unexpected newlines being converted to
tags. The reason for this is that there's newlines after paragraphs and other block tags. Could it be possible to specify that you want the HTML to be returned without these newlines? That the block tags will effectively replace the newlines that specify them, but any hardbreaks within block tags stay? An example: This is a paragraph. Before it there's two hardbreaks, after it as well. Here's\n a single hardbreak. And\n Another one.\n \n Paragraph 2\n \n At the moment this will return

This is a paragraph. Before it there's two hardbreaks, after it as well. Here's\n a single hardbreak. And\n Another one.\n

\n \n

Second Paragraph

\n What would be nice, if it could return:

This is a paragraph. Before it there's two hardbreaks, after it as well. Here's\n a single hardbreak. And\n Another one.\n

Second Paragraph

As I said, this won't change the syntax or the presentation in any context, but now I can quite freely execute nl2br on this code, and get what I expected, except for the extra
at the end of the paragraph:

This is a paragraph. Before it there's two hardbreaks, after it as well. Here's
a single hardbreak. And
Another one.

Second Paragraph

This is then hardbreaks without the two spaces at the end of a line, which is for me somewhat ungainly. J On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 1:18 PM, Michel Fortin wrote: > Le 2008-07-18 ? 5:13, Jurgens du Toit a ?crit : > > Kewl. >> >> If you look at a formatter like tidy, it's got a lot of options where you >> can turn certain behaviour on and off, making it much more useable for a >> lot >> of people. Wouldn't it improve the usability of Markdown if these kind of >> options were present? >> > > The more options, the more difficult to test, because each input can have > more than one output. There are some configurable things in PHP Markdown, > but I can attest they are under-tested compared to the regular syntax. > > Moreover, with each option affecting how the Markdown source is parsed, you > multiply per two the number of variants of the language in the wild. > Currently, if I encounter a text box on a web page claiming to be > Markdown-formatted I can be pretty sure of the output I'll get for what I > write. If Markdown had one option turning each newline in one HTML line > break, then writing in that textbox is guesswork. Hopefully, the form author > will tell which options are on and which are off -- something like "Markdown > + automatic line breaks" in our case -- but the more options, the less > practical it is for authors to write this extra info, or for users to read > it, because the length of the description would become intimidating. > > Which means that if you modify Markdown to change some of its behaviour, > please don't call it plainly "Markdown". "Markdown + automatic line breaks" > explains clearly what your text field does differently from Markdown and > will avoid surprises for your visitors. > > - - - > > Now, if you still want to do a hard break at each newline with PHP > Markdown, go to the `doHardBreaks` function and change this expression: > > / {2,}\n/ > > for this one: > > /\n/ > > and I expect it should do the trick. This is totally untested however. And > I don't plan to add an option like this to future versions. > > > > Michel Fortin > michel.fortin at michelf.com > http://michelf.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Markdown-Discuss mailing list > Markdown-Discuss at six.pairlist.net > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss > -- Jurgens du Toit Cell: +27 83 511 7932 Fax: +27 86 503 2637 Website: www.jrgns.net If people never did silly things, nothing intelligent would ever get done. - Ludwig Wittgenstein -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pagaltzis at gmx.de Mon Jul 21 06:00:24 2008 From: pagaltzis at gmx.de (Aristotle Pagaltzis) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:00:24 +0200 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: <12cc0b6c0807210002x72c79b45rb6c2c85d217c6c7e@mail.gmail.com> References:

<12cc0b6c0807180213s5bfb33btec28c8ea0e0eb9eb@mail.gmail.com> <35A8D8B7-1384-4027-B908-98E61704908F@michelf.com> <12cc0b6c0807210002x72c79b45rb6c2c85d217c6c7e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080721100024.GP2468@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> * Jurgens du Toit [2008-07-21 09:05]: > I don't think that if something is difficult to test, it > shouldn't be implemented. You mean it?s fine for people to give you software that might or might not work, and they don?t know which? What happens if you report a bug and they can?t test whether their bugfix breaks previously working stuff? Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From jurgens.dutoit at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 06:32:45 2008 From: jurgens.dutoit at gmail.com (Jurgens du Toit) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:32:45 +0200 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: <20080721100024.GP2468@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> References:

<12cc0b6c0807180213s5bfb33btec28c8ea0e0eb9eb@mail.gmail.com> <35A8D8B7-1384-4027-B908-98E61704908F@michelf.com> <12cc0b6c0807210002x72c79b45rb6c2c85d217c6c7e@mail.gmail.com> <20080721100024.GP2468@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <12cc0b6c0807210332p580863cfj96c395b0f91d69d9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <94C40E0F-615D-4011-98F8-4183B8439952@jumpingrock.net> I think the answers you're getting here will make more sense if you re- read John Gruber's description of Markdown's history and purpose, at daringfireball.net. On 21 Jul 2008, at 6:32 AM, Jurgens du Toit wrote: > I mean that "difficulty to test" must not impair the development > process. > Yes, sure, don't roll out software that hasn't been tested, but, as > Markdown > is issued under an open source license, there's who knows how many > people > who might want the untested functionality, and who will be willing > to test > it, and probably improve on it as well. Me included. > > J > > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Aristotle Pagaltzis > > wrote: > >> * Jurgens du Toit [2008-07-21 09:05]: >>> I don't think that if something is difficult to test, it >>> shouldn't be implemented. >> >> You mean it's fine for people to give you software that might or >> might not work, and they don't know which? What happens if you >> report a bug and they can't test whether their bugfix breaks >> previously working stuff? >> >> Regards, >> -- >> Aristotle Pagaltzis // >> _______________________________________________ >> Markdown-Discuss mailing list >> Markdown-Discuss at six.pairlist.net >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss >> > > > > -- > Jurgens du Toit > Cell: +27 83 511 7932 > Fax: +27 86 503 2637 > Website: www.jrgns.net > > If people never did silly things, nothing intelligent would ever get > done. > - Ludwig Wittgenstein > _______________________________________________ > Markdown-Discuss mailing list > Markdown-Discuss at six.pairlist.net > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss From jurgens.dutoit at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 12:57:57 2008 From: jurgens.dutoit at gmail.com (Jurgens du Toit) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 18:57:57 +0200 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: <94C40E0F-615D-4011-98F8-4183B8439952@jumpingrock.net> References:

<12cc0b6c0807180213s5bfb33btec28c8ea0e0eb9eb@mail.gmail.com> <35A8D8B7-1384-4027-B908-98E61704908F@michelf.com> <12cc0b6c0807210002x72c79b45rb6c2c85d217c6c7e@mail.gmail.com> <20080721100024.GP2468@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <12cc0b6c0807210332p580863cfj96c395b0f91d69d9@mail.gmail.com> <94C40E0F-615D-4011-98F8-4183B8439952@jumpingrock.net> Message-ID: <12cc0b6c0807210957s281b5937u184c3f91430dd533@mail.gmail.com> I understand the answers. I'm just looking for more :) J On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Tom Humiston wrote: > I think the answers you're getting here will make more sense if you re-read > John Gruber's description of Markdown's history and purpose, at > daringfireball.net. > > > > On 21 Jul 2008, at 6:32 AM, Jurgens du Toit wrote: > > I mean that "difficulty to test" must not impair the development process. >> Yes, sure, don't roll out software that hasn't been tested, but, as >> Markdown >> is issued under an open source license, there's who knows how many people >> who might want the untested functionality, and who will be willing to test >> it, and probably improve on it as well. Me included. >> >> J >> >> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Aristotle Pagaltzis >> wrote: >> >> * Jurgens du Toit [2008-07-21 09:05]: >>> >>>> I don't think that if something is difficult to test, it >>>> shouldn't be implemented. >>>> >>> >>> You mean it's fine for people to give you software that might or >>> might not work, and they don't know which? What happens if you >>> report a bug and they can't test whether their bugfix breaks >>> previously working stuff? >>> >>> Regards, >>> -- >>> Aristotle Pagaltzis // >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Markdown-Discuss mailing list >>> Markdown-Discuss at six.pairlist.net >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Jurgens du Toit >> Cell: +27 83 511 7932 >> Fax: +27 86 503 2637 >> Website: www.jrgns.net >> >> If people never did silly things, nothing intelligent would ever get done. >> - Ludwig Wittgenstein >> _______________________________________________ >> Markdown-Discuss mailing list >> Markdown-Discuss at six.pairlist.net >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss >> > > _______________________________________________ > Markdown-Discuss mailing list > Markdown-Discuss at six.pairlist.net > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss > -- Jurgens du Toit Cell: +27 83 511 7932 Fax: +27 86 503 2637 Website: www.jrgns.net If people never did silly things, nothing intelligent would ever get done. - Ludwig Wittgenstein -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michel.fortin at michelf.com Mon Jul 21 19:09:35 2008 From: michel.fortin at michelf.com (Michel Fortin) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:09:35 -0400 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: <12cc0b6c0807210332p580863cfj96c395b0f91d69d9@mail.gmail.com> References:

<12cc0b6c0807180213s5bfb33btec28c8ea0e0eb9eb@mail.gmail.com> <35A8D8B7-1384-4027-B908-98E61704908F@michelf.com> <12cc0b6c0807210002x72c79b45rb6c2c85d217c6c7e@mail.gmail.com> <20080721100024.GP2468@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <12cc0b6c0807210332p580863cfj96c395b0f91d69d9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <12cc0b6c0807212347k65934003v9fc5dd0624d760a9@mail.gmail.com> At the end of the day I probably will maintain my own copy, with some changes, of Markdown. I also don't want to break the syntax. One of my previous mails I mentioned a way that makes the Markdown more useable (by being able to usefully use nl2br on the Markdown'ed string) without breaking the syntax or HTML and plain text presentation. J On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 1:09 AM, Michel Fortin wrote: > Le 2008-07-21 ? 6:32, Jurgens du Toit a ?crit : > > I mean that "difficulty to test" must not impair the development process. >> Yes, sure, don't roll out software that hasn't been tested, but, as >> Markdown >> is issued under an open source license, there's who knows how many people >> who might want the untested functionality, and who will be willing to test >> it, and probably improve on it as well. Me included. >> > > No doubt about that: testing shouldn't impair development. As you've seen, > I'm not against experiments; I've even told you what to change to get what > you requested. > > But I'm not interested in *publishing* this as a feature of PHP Markdown > because I don't want to test and maintain a new optional feature. Not to > mention that I think it breaks the syntax. If you wish to do the maintenance > and testing it requires and handle the bug reports that will come (or ignore > them), feel free to fork PHP Markdown and publish that; the license allows > it. > > > Michel Fortin > michel.fortin at michelf.com > http://michelf.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Markdown-Discuss mailing list > Markdown-Discuss at six.pairlist.net > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss > -- Jurgens du Toit Cell: +27 83 511 7932 Fax: +27 86 503 2637 Website: www.jrgns.net If people never did silly things, nothing intelligent would ever get done. - Ludwig Wittgenstein -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michel.fortin at michelf.com Tue Jul 22 06:35:41 2008 From: michel.fortin at michelf.com (Michel Fortin) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 06:35:41 -0400 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: <12cc0b6c0807212347k65934003v9fc5dd0624d760a9@mail.gmail.com> References:

function a() {
         return 1;
     }

be turned into this:

function a() {

         return 1;

     }

effectively doubling the newlines? Michel Fortin michel.fortin at michelf.com http://michelf.com/ From jurgens.dutoit at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 06:43:35 2008 From: jurgens.dutoit at gmail.com (Jurgens du Toit) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:43:35 +0200 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: <18DFF102-55B0-4721-A63D-9344B00F946C@michelf.com> References:

function a() {
>        return 1;
>    }

> > be turned into this: > >

function a() {

>        return 1;

>    }

> > effectively doubling the newlines? > > > > Michel Fortin > michel.fortin at michelf.com > http://michelf.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Markdown-Discuss mailing list > Markdown-Discuss at six.pairlist.net > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss > -- Jurgens du Toit Cell: +27 83 511 7932 Fax: +27 86 503 2637 Website: www.jrgns.net If people never did silly things, nothing intelligent would ever get done. - Ludwig Wittgenstein -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pagaltzis at gmx.de Tue Jul 22 08:24:00 2008 From: pagaltzis at gmx.de (Aristotle Pagaltzis) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:24:00 +0200 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: <18DFF102-55B0-4721-A63D-9344B00F946C@michelf.com> References:

<12cc0b6c0807180213s5bfb33btec28c8ea0e0eb9eb@mail.gmail.com> <35A8D8B7-1384-4027-B908-98E61704908F@michelf.com> <12cc0b6c0807210002x72c79b45rb6c2c85d217c6c7e@mail.gmail.com> <20080721100024.GP2468@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <12cc0b6c0807210332p580863cfj96c395b0f91d69d9@mail.gmail.com> <12cc0b6c0807212347k65934003v9fc5dd0624d760a9@mail.gmail.com> <18DFF102-55B0-4721-A63D-9344B00F946C@michelf.com> Message-ID: <20080722122400.GR2468@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> * Michel Fortin [2008-07-22 12:40]: > Have you considered what will happen to code blocks with > `nl2br`? That can be fixed by *replacing* newlines with break tags so there aren?t any literal linebreaks. View Source won?t be pretty but the browser rendering will be correct. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From jgm at berkeley.edu Tue Jul 22 11:46:42 2008 From: jgm at berkeley.edu (John MacFarlane) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:46:42 -0700 Subject: Syntax Questions In-Reply-To: <12cc0b6c0807220343x71e3337bta5f48252185ed053@mail.gmail.com> References: <12cc0b6c0807180213s5bfb33btec28c8ea0e0eb9eb@mail.gmail.com> <35A8D8B7-1384-4027-B908-98E61704908F@michelf.com> <12cc0b6c0807210002x72c79b45rb6c2c85d217c6c7e@mail.gmail.com> <20080721100024.GP2468@klangraum.plasmasturm.org> <12cc0b6c0807210332p580863cfj96c395b0f91d69d9@mail.gmail.com> <12cc0b6c0807212347k65934003v9fc5dd0624d760a9@mail.gmail.com> <18DFF102-55B0-4721-A63D-9344B00F946C@michelf.com> <12cc0b6c0807220343x71e3337bta5f48252185ed053@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080722154642.GA10016@berkeley.edu> You can change [peg-markdown] to behave the way you want (without problems in code blocks) just by adding one line: --- a/markdown_parser.leg +++ b/markdown_parser.leg @@ -384,6 +384,7 @@ Entity = ( HexEntity | DecEntity | CharEntity ) { $$ = mk_str(yytext); $$->key = HTML; } Endline = TerminalEndline | NormalEndline + { $$ = mk_element(LINEBREAK); } [peg-markdown]: http://github.com/jgm/peg-markdown/tree/master John +++ Jurgens du Toit [Jul 22 08 12:43 ]: > Mmm, yes. Didn't think about that. Another solution would perhaps be to > split the string into an array by using the start and end tags of block > elements, and then only nl2br specific elements of this array, and then > put the string back together again. > > J > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Michel Fortin > <[1]michel.fortin at michelf.com> wrote: > > Le 2008-07-22 ? 2:47, Jurgens du Toit a ?crit : > > At the end of the day I probably will maintain my own copy, with some > changes, of Markdown. I also don't want to break the syntax. One of my > previous mails I mentioned a way that makes the Markdown more useable > (by > being able to usefully use nl2br on the Markdown'ed string) without > breaking > the syntax or HTML and plain text presentation. > > Have you considered what will happen to code blocks with `nl2br`? Won't > this: > >

function a() {
>             return 1;
>         }

> > be turned into this: > >

function a() {

>             return 1;

>         }

> > effectively doubling the newlines? > > Michel Fortin > [2]michel.fortin at michelf.com > [3]http://michelf.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Markdown-Discuss mailing list > [4]Markdown-Discuss at six.pairlist.net > [5]http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss > > -- > Jurgens du Toit > Cell: +27 83 511 7932 > Fax: +27 86 503 2637 > Website: [6]www.jrgns.net > > If people never did silly things, nothing intelligent would ever get done. > - Ludwig Wittgenstein > > References > > Visible links > 1. mailto:michel.fortin at michelf.com > 2. mailto:michel.fortin at michelf.com > 3. http://michelf.com/ > 4. mailto:Markdown-Discuss at six.pairlist.net > 5. http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss > 6. http://www.jrgns.net/ > _______________________________________________ > Markdown-Discuss mailing list > Markdown-Discuss at six.pairlist.net > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss From gour at mail.inet.hr Tue Jul 22 15:18:14 2008 From: gour at mail.inet.hr (Gour) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:18:14 +0200 Subject: standard-izing extended markdown Message-ID: <87tzehu3rd.fsf@nitai.hr> Hello! On the markdown site it is written: "Markdown?s syntax is intended for one purpose: to be used as a format for writing for the web.", although recently I moved from Emacs Muse to Markdown markup for writing my study notes and plan to use it for writing technical documentation as well. However, in order to be able to use the features I had in Muse, I write using 'extended' syntax and use Pandoc to convert my study notes to *.odt (and to *.doc to my mentor), while I plan to convert markdown to ConTeXt for my own publishing needs. Pandoc will get bibliographic citations support and it already has support for stuff like footnotes, tables, and definition lists. That's why I'm interested to know what is the plan in regard to standardizing some of those 'extra' features which put markdown markup in the category of (more) serious authoring solutions? I appreciate the simplicity of markdown, but still consider that the above features do not taint the basic model, but provide powerful authoring solution along with converters like Pandoc which does LaTeX/ConTeXt/... Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Zagreb, Croatia | GPG key: C6E7162D ---------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 196 bytes Desc: not available Url : From michel.fortin at michelf.com Wed Jul 23 06:13:32 2008 From: michel.fortin at michelf.com (Michel Fortin) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:13:32 -0400 Subject: standard-izing extended markdown In-Reply-To: <87tzehu3rd.fsf@nitai.hr> References: <87tzehu3rd.fsf@nitai.hr> Message-ID: <75EB0FB1-7998-4D69-AAB2-2B9889D9FED7@michelf.com> Le 2008-07-22 ? 15:18, Gour a ?crit : > That's why I'm interested to know what is the plan in regard to > standardizing some of those 'extra' features which put markdown markup > in the category of (more) serious authoring solutions? Well, I plan to specify and define unambiguously the syntax for Markdown Extra, with an eye on keeping that spec usable to implement a plain Markdown parser too. I hope to convince some other Markdown implementers to follow the parsing model in that spec to help improve interoperability and compatibility both with standard and extra features. You can read the current draft here: Development of that spec is somewhat stalled right now, as I'm working on other things. Note that these other things include an experimental incremental parser for PHP Markdown and PHP Markdown Extra... which could count as advancing the spec anyway by looking at what is practical and what is not. (Some problems with the current approach in the spec convinced me to experiment a little before writing further.) Michel Fortin michel.fortin at michelf.com http://michelf.com/ From gour at mail.inet.hr Wed Jul 23 13:13:33 2008 From: gour at mail.inet.hr (Gour) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:13:33 +0200 Subject: standard-izing extended markdown References: <87tzehu3rd.fsf@nitai.hr> <75EB0FB1-7998-4D69-AAB2-2B9889D9FED7@michelf.com> Message-ID: <87abg8msle.fsf@nitai.hr> >>>>> "Michel" == Michel Fortin writes: Hello Michel, Michel> Well, I plan to specify and define unambiguously the syntax for Michel> Markdown Extra, with an eye on keeping that spec usable to Michel> implement a plain Markdown parser too. I hope to convince some Michel> other Markdown implementers to follow the parsing model in that Michel> spec to help improve interoperability and compatibility both Michel> with standard and extra features. Hey this are good news :-) Michel> You can read the current draft here: Michel> Thanks for the link. I stumbled upon it sometime in the past (replacing support for markdown in PHP Markdown with M-extra in CMSMS), but forgot about it... Michel> Development of that spec is somewhat stalled right now, as I'm Michel> working on other things. Note that these other things include an Michel> experimental incremental parser for PHP Markdown and PHP Michel> Markdown Extra... which could count as advancing the spec anyway Michel> by looking at what is practical and what is not. (Some problems Michel> with the current approach in the spec convinced me to experiment Michel> a little before writing further.) Good, good. Let's hope that nice 'standard' for Markdown Extra will emerge out of it...It makes Markdown very powerful for authoring of all kinds of documents. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Zagreb, Croatia | GPG key: C6E7162D ---------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 196 bytes Desc: not available Url : From bobtfish at bobtfish.net Fri Jul 25 03:52:35 2008 From: bobtfish at bobtfish.net (Tomas Doran) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:52:35 +0100 Subject: + in email addresses - edge case with a lot of variation between implementations. Message-ID: <8F43DD52-B712-43BB-AAB0-35BD48B2A02B@bobtfish.net> http://babelmark.bobtfish.net/?markdown=%3Ca%2Bb%40c.org%3E&normalize=on Only Python markdown, Pandoc, discount and PEG markdown seem to get this 'right'. As a + is perfectly valid in email addresses, I'm going to fix this in my modules. This was reported to me via the cpan.org RT (37909), and I thought I'd share as it's a good one in Babelmark. Cheers Tom From michel.fortin at michelf.com Fri Jul 25 05:28:23 2008 From: michel.fortin at michelf.com (Michel Fortin) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 05:28:23 -0400 Subject: + in email addresses - edge case with a lot of variation between implementations. In-Reply-To: <8F43DD52-B712-43BB-AAB0-35BD48B2A02B@bobtfish.net> References: <8F43DD52-B712-43BB-AAB0-35BD48B2A02B@bobtfish.net> Message-ID: Le 2008-07-25 ? 3:52, Tomas Doran a ?crit : > http://babelmark.bobtfish.net/?markdown=%3Ca%2Bb%40c.org%3E&normalize=on > > Only Python markdown, Pandoc, discount and PEG markdown seem to get > this 'right'. > > As a + is perfectly valid in email addresses, I'm going to fix this > in my modules. > > This was reported to me via the cpan.org RT (37909), and I thought > I'd share as it's a good one in Babelmark. I'm looking at [some examples of valid email addresses on Wikipedia] [1] and wondering if we should we support all these... <1234567890 at example.com> <_______ at example.com> (all of these characters are allowed) <"abc at def"@example.com> (anything goes inside quotation marks) <"Fred Bloggs"@example.com> Michel Fortin michel.fortin at michelf.com http://michelf.com/ From liz.blankenship at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 19:23:16 2008 From: liz.blankenship at gmail.com (Liz Blankenship) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:23:16 -0700 Subject: Accessibility of automatic e-mail links Message-ID: <4a932ed90807301623v3c456d3agda637d08704b80b7@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I'm working on usability and accessibility for a project that uses Markdown. When I tried out a screenreader on the automatic e-mail links, I noticed that there's nothing there semantically due to obfuscation. I think that obfuscation in this way is a neat feature, I hadn't heard about it before. This would be even better if there was a way to both obfuscate e-mail addresses and provide title text, such as link text. It'd be cool, too, if screen readers learned how to read obfuscated words, but the day that happens, all the spam bots will, too. ;-) Anyway, this is pretty minor, just wanted to contribute what I noticed about accessibility for food for thought and say hello. I'll write again if I notice anything else during my accessibility evaluation. Thanks, Liz Blankenship E-mail: liz.blankenship at gmail.com Phone: 515-450-0102 Website: http://www.lizblankenship.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: