From SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com Wed Jul 1 00:19:09 2009 From: SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com (SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 00:19:09 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - July 1, 2009 Message-ID: http://www.rocksfromspace.org/July_1_2009.html __________________________ **************Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops ? Deals starting at $399(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222883570x1201497211/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0) From meteoritekid at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 00:03:00 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 21:03:00 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Opinions on an oddball meteorite I cut open In-Reply-To: <4A4AC86E.7050503@meteoritesusa.com> References: <93aaac890906301758q5697a414o880a9d5f0efef488@mail.gmail.com> <4A4AC86E.7050503@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: <93aaac890906302103g8ec89bdr5ea765c19b7bfebd@mail.gmail.com> >Eric wrote: > The term "very low" when referring to magnetism in a stone meteorite is > "very subjective" isn't it? Is there a scale to go by, or industry standard > for strength of magnetism? I've had stone material that a super strong and > very large neo magnet would barely stick to. Everything's relative. It can be hard to judge L vs LL and sometimes H vs L, but I would question the judgement of one who mistook an LL for an H or vice-versa. Also, given the fact that the stone in question appears to have experienced little-to-no internal oxidation, and very little metal appears on the cut surface, again, I would suggest an L or LL (probably LL) classification. You can attempt to judge a meteorite's class by magnetic susceptibility, but I find that weathering changes these results and makes the method rather unreliable, especially as there is a wide overlap between the amount of metal in LL's and L's, as well as between L's and H's. Add weathering to this system and you just wind up with inaccuracies. > Also wouldn't small slices such as this piece and others be hard to > determine types due to the small mass. Small meteorites are just as easy to classify as large ones, on principle - to an extent. So long as you have enough for a thin section, and maybe for analyzing isotopes, an analysis is as easy as any other, at least insofar as you don't need more material to classify a meteorite. But you seem to be pointing towards asking whether or not the classification would be accurate, due to heterogeneous breccias - see below. >I mean, a small 10 gram stone > wouldn't be completely representative of an entire mass if that mass is > unknown would it? You're addressing a different issue, and one that is...an impossible one to address. What if every other meteorite ever found weren't a representative sample of the body from whence it came? Look at the paired Dhofar lunars that were only tied together when one stone chanced to have all three lithologies present, or Seymchan - IIE vs pallasite. Chergach IMB vs plain ordinary chondrite, and Park Forest - ordinary L6 vs L-IMB. You work with what you have. If it's small, you classify what you've got and hope more turns up. But you're talking about NWA, so in all likelihood, 5kg already has come overseas, and it was classified six months ago. But that's science. If evidence comes forth and proves conclusively that this stone is a clast out of an L4, then it will be deemed paired. Until the stone is found that can prove that, it's a distinct meteorite. > I've seen and cut some chondrites with dual lithologies > but if I cut those stones in half down the separation line of the mineral > types, how would you know what type it is? It would be the type you were left with, because that would be the composition of the meteorite that was being analyzed. You can only analyze what you have to work with... Regards, Jason > Regards, > Eric > > > > Jason Utas wrote: >> >> Hola, >> Check out the last picture - there's a white chondrule clearly visible >> in the upper right/center of the photo. >> Also note the dark chondrule (large, but fuzzy) at the bottom edge of >> the slice, a tad to the left of center. >> I'd go with LL6; it has a few chondrules, and from what I understand, >> the type seven designation is reserved for primitive achondrites. ?Of >> course, it's hard to gauge L vs LL, but you did say that the magnetism >> was "very low." >> Regards, >> Jason >> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Galactic Stone & >> Ironworks wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi Listees! >>> >>> I'd like some opinions on a meteorite I cut open yesterday. ?It's an >>> oddball I've had in my box of NWA for some time - awaiting a date with >>> the saw. ?It exhibits a very low magnetism and it has a grey matrix >>> almost entirely devoid of chondrules - although there does appear to >>> be some remnant chondrule structures. ?I'm hoping it might be some >>> kind of achondrite, but the magnetism mostly rules that out. ?Is it >>> some uncommon type like an L7? ?Or is it just something common that I >>> have not seen before? >>> >>> The exterior has a wind polished desert varnish on it and there >>> doesn't appear to be any fusion crust to speak of - although there are >>> a few scattered tiny patches of black on it. ?The stone weighs 16 >>> grams. ?I only made 2 cuts - I cut one corner off to expose the matrix >>> (endcut) and I made one thin slice. ? The rest of the stone is intact. >>> >>> Here are some photo links - >>> >>> >>> http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj24/Meteoritethrower/Meteorites/Anomalous/new-odd-cut/odd-new-1.jpg >>> >>> >>> http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj24/Meteoritethrower/Meteorites/Anomalous/new-odd-cut/odd-new-2.jpg >>> >>> >>> http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj24/Meteoritethrower/Meteorites/Anomalous/new-odd-cut/odd-new-3.jpg >>> >>> Any opinions are welcomed. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> MikeG >>> >>> -- >>> ......................................................... >>> Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) >>> Member of the Meteoritical Society. >>> Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. >>> Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com >>> .......................................................... >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> > > > -- > Regards, > Eric Wichman > Meteorites USA > http://www.meteoritesusa.com > 904-236-5394 > > From meteoritekid at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 03:56:16 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 00:56:16 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: First Ebay Auction - NWA 1956 H5 Split Individual Message-ID: <93aaac890907010056h19c75f1ch3bbeae666e0f370f@mail.gmail.com> Hello All, I've decided to try my hand at selling some space rocks on ebay - as this is my first auction, I would appreciate any feedback that the list (collectors, dealers, anyone) might have to offer, on any aspect of the auction. And, I might add - it's a pretty nice stone, so I'd appreciate any interest in the form of a bid or two ;) Have a look! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230353073435 Thanks, Jason Utas From claudiu at tanaselia.ro Wed Jul 1 04:05:53 2009 From: claudiu at tanaselia.ro (Claudiu Tanaselia) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:05:53 +0300 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fwd: AD. Nasa stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20090630142710.7D32T.123477.imail@fed1rmwml39> Message-ID: No connection to this story, right? http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-70597735.html Just kidding. (Hopefully). > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 9:27 PM, wrote: >> Sorry, I forgot the link. >> http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/meteoritemax_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZ >> >> Carl >>> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:55:39 -0700 >>> From: >>> To: meteoritelist >>> Subject: [meteorite-list] AD. Nasa stuff >>> >>> List, >>> I have a bunch of real stuff from NASA on eBay ending later today. Please have a look. Thanks >>> >>> Carl Esparza >>> IMCA 5829 >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > From carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 1 08:26:42 2009 From: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com (Carl 's) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 05:26:42 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: First Ebay Auction - NWA 1956 H5 Split Individual Message-ID: Hi Jason, This really has nothing to do with your ebay auction but last year we visited and saw your picture at the Griffith Observatory's meteorite collection. When we got back home I put on the movie, TOBOR THE GREAT (1954), which featured the front of the Griffith. Still looked recognizable even after over 50 years. Too bad you aren't selling NWA 1954 instead for a somewhat vague tie-in. Carl _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 From carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 1 08:39:57 2009 From: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com (Carl 's) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 05:39:57 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] High Levels of Formic Acid in Tagish Lake Message-ID: I love that movie! When I was a kid I remember rooting for the ants! No, that wasn't DeForest Kelly. It's been awhile since I saw it but I believe that was Leonard Nimoy. Carl >Them! had a stellar performance by a young DeForest Kelley. I don't >think it was credited under that name though. On 6/30/09, Sterling K. Webb wrote: > For all the ant "lovers," I recommend the 1954 > movie "THEM!" starring the venerable British > actor Edmond Gwenn (b. 1877, first movie 1916) > with early-career performances by James Whitmore, > James Arness, Fess Parker and a host of character > actors. > > And of course, hordes of very, very large ants. > _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 From stm at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 1 09:24:29 2009 From: stm at bellsouth.net (Sean T. Murray) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 09:24:29 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] High Levels of Formic Acid in Tagish Lake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F897DF8BF4B40869456F14F29930DB0@Platinum2> Leonard Nimoy was in "Them!". DeForest was in "Night of the Lupus" with the giant rabbits... Who could forget that masterpiece! I think that is what you all are remembering. Giant ants, giant rabbits -- it was the "Radiation (or the occasional meteorite) made this harmless thing giant and crave human blood" era of movie-making. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl 's" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 8:39 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] High Levels of Formic Acid in Tagish Lake I love that movie! When I was a kid I remember rooting for the ants! No, that wasn't DeForest Kelly. It's been awhile since I saw it but I believe that was Leonard Nimoy. Carl >Them! had a stellar performance by a young DeForest Kelley. I don't >think it was credited under that name though. On 6/30/09, Sterling K. Webb wrote: > For all the ant "lovers," I recommend the 1954 > movie "THEM!" starring the venerable British > actor Edmond Gwenn (b. 1877, first movie 1916) > with early-career performances by James Whitmore, > James Arness, Fess Parker and a host of character > actors. > > And of course, hordes of very, very large ants. > _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From joshuatreemuseum at embarqmail.com Wed Jul 1 10:36:41 2009 From: joshuatreemuseum at embarqmail.com (JoshuaTreeMuseum) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:36:41 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] High Levels of Formic Acid in Tagish Lake Message-ID: What kid would not like a movie with not only Mr. Spock in it, but also Dan'l Boone and Matt Dillon! (Not to mention the outsized ants!) For cheesy Insect Fear movies, it's hard to beat the Japanese though, I was always partial to Mothra. Phil Whitmer From cynapse at charter.net Wed Jul 1 12:38:43 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:38:43 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event In-Reply-To: <46A9C40A9D8C467F8C68808CBF935CB1@den> References: <916197.44926.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46A9C40A9D8C467F8C68808CBF935CB1@den> Message-ID: http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEn3LrswY8Zyro From tricottetcoll at live.com Wed Jul 1 11:39:53 2009 From: tricottetcoll at live.com (The Tricottet Collection) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 15:39:53 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - ebay auctions ending soon (AML sale) Message-ID: Dear list members, I have 3 meteorite auctions ending in 2 days: Henbury with Huss number and AML label and 2 full slices (Thuathe and Monze) Link -> http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/5166arnaud_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZ Thank you, ArnaudM _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 From MeteorHntr at aol.com Wed Jul 1 12:12:55 2009 From: MeteorHntr at aol.com (MeteorHntr at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:12:55 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event Message-ID: It is nice to see that the National Guard can shoot down meteorites with shoulder held bazookas. I feel safer now! Steve Arnold of "Meteorite Men" **************Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops ? Deals starting at $399(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222883570x1201497211/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0) From lgarvie at asu.edu Wed Jul 1 12:33:43 2009 From: lgarvie at asu.edu (Laurence Garvie) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 09:33:43 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Formic acid in meteorites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: High levels of formic acid were also found in the Antarctic meteorite EET96029. You can download the pdf at www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2004/pdf/1888.pdf Laurence CMS ASU From meteoritemike at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 12:55:16 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:55:16 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Opinions on an oddball meteorite I cut open In-Reply-To: <93aaac890906301758q5697a414o880a9d5f0efef488@mail.gmail.com> References: <93aaac890906301758q5697a414o880a9d5f0efef488@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason, Eric and List! I want to classify promising meteorites in the hopes of adding something to science - no matter how small that contribution might seem. Plus, I haven't done it yet, so I am eager to "break the ice" and get a classification under my belt. I have a box of whole stones and a few fragments (like this one) that I have culled out of my bulk lots over the last 2 years. These are stones that have some odd aspect to them - strange appearance, very low magnetism, chondrule-rich, oriented, etc. Now that I have a saw, I am windowing these stones. Thus far, most have been disappointingly common on the inside with the typical weathered H-chondrite matrix. But this one was unexpected. I expected it to be a meteorwrong, or to have a weathered interior. I was surprised to see an apparently fresh (or semi-fresh) matrix with extremely tiny metal flecks (more like pinpoints) and some remnant chondrules that look re-crystallized or heat metamorphosed. I saw a photo of an L7 that looks similar to this matrix, but the similarity is solely aesthetic I am sure. When I saw "very low magnetism", I mean this - I have a N48 rare earth magnet cylinder that is pretty good sized. (1 inch tall and about .75 inch diameter). It's very strong and common H chondrites will leap to it. I have other small meteorites that are the same size as this oddball stone, and they leap to the magnet and stick strongly. This meteorite barely sticks at all. The meteorite will attract to the magnet, but if I pick the magnet up the meteorite will fall off - the attraction is not strong enough for the meteorite to remain stuck. Out of all the UNWA stones I have in my oddball box, this one shows the least attraction. I wish I had some real objective method to quantify the magnetic attraction, but this arbitrary description is the best I can do. As far as classifying small stones - the latest MAPS Met Bulletin in print shows the results of the last Chinese Antarctic expedition. One classified specimen is a single chondrule. Several American Antarctic finds are less than 1 gram. (from previous bulletins). I think if we, as collectors, dismiss promising stones because of their small size, we run the risk of missing rare types that science could benefit from. As long as a flood of tiny pointless classifications doesn't paralyze the system, I don't see the harm in classifying specimens similar to this. AFAIK, many labs are still accepting material like this. Since I am new to cutting open stones, I was wondering if a matrix like this is more common than I realized. I have seen some pretty and interesting results from cutting, but this is the only one that didn't immediately scream "H chondrite". I have another stone with a beautiful matrix that resembles marbled ice cream with chondrules and metal fleck, but despite it's beauty, I am relatively certain it is on OC. It's a keeper just the same. If anyone is interested in seeing a slice of this grey oddball UNWA, I will send one for study - if someone with a petrographic microscope and experience can make a more specific determination on what this stone might be. Contact me offlist if interested. Best regards and thanks for the feedback, MikeG On 6/30/09, Jason Utas wrote: > Hola, > Check out the last picture - there's a white chondrule clearly visible > in the upper right/center of the photo. > Also note the dark chondrule (large, but fuzzy) at the bottom edge of > the slice, a tad to the left of center. > I'd go with LL6; it has a few chondrules, and from what I understand, > the type seven designation is reserved for primitive achondrites. Of > course, it's hard to gauge L vs LL, but you did say that the magnetism > was "very low." > Regards, > Jason > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Galactic Stone & > Ironworks wrote: >> Hi Listees! >> >> I'd like some opinions on a meteorite I cut open yesterday. It's an >> oddball I've had in my box of NWA for some time - awaiting a date with >> the saw. It exhibits a very low magnetism and it has a grey matrix >> almost entirely devoid of chondrules - although there does appear to >> be some remnant chondrule structures. I'm hoping it might be some >> kind of achondrite, but the magnetism mostly rules that out. Is it >> some uncommon type like an L7? Or is it just something common that I >> have not seen before? >> >> The exterior has a wind polished desert varnish on it and there >> doesn't appear to be any fusion crust to speak of - although there are >> a few scattered tiny patches of black on it. The stone weighs 16 >> grams. I only made 2 cuts - I cut one corner off to expose the matrix >> (endcut) and I made one thin slice. The rest of the stone is intact. >> >> Here are some photo links - >> >> http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj24/Meteoritethrower/Meteorites/Anomalous/new-odd-cut/odd-new-1.jpg >> >> http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj24/Meteoritethrower/Meteorites/Anomalous/new-odd-cut/odd-new-2.jpg >> >> http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj24/Meteoritethrower/Meteorites/Anomalous/new-odd-cut/odd-new-3.jpg >> >> Any opinions are welcomed. >> >> Best regards, >> >> MikeG >> >> -- >> ......................................................... >> Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) >> Member of the Meteoritical Society. >> Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. >> Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com >> .......................................................... >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu Wed Jul 1 13:03:26 2009 From: lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu (lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:03:26 -0700 (MST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5c0bc2684399dc2cb86f859061429b7c.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> If Kleopatra were to hit the Earth (at least that is what I get out of the main page), we would be in big trouble. For those of you who do not remember, 216 Kleopatra, thanks to radar observations, looks very much like a big dog bone, 220 kilometers long and 100 kilometers across. Larry > It is nice to see that the National Guard can shoot down meteorites with > shoulder held bazookas. I feel safer now! > > Steve Arnold > of "Meteorite Men" > > **************Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops ??? Deals > starting at > $399(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222883570x1201497211/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0) > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From rsvp321 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 1 13:17:35 2009 From: rsvp321 at hotmail.com (Pete Pete) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 13:17:35 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event In-Reply-To: References: <916197.44926.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46A9C40A9D8C467F8C68808CBF935CB1@den> Message-ID: In this one, I'm cheering for the meteorites! ---------------------------------------- > From: cynapse at charter.net > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:38:43 -0500 > Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event > > http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEn3LrswY8Zyro > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live helps you keep up with all your friends, in one place. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9660826 From cynapse at charter.net Wed Jul 1 14:42:10 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:42:10 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event In-Reply-To: <5c0bc2684399dc2cb86f859061429b7c.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> References: <5c0bc2684399dc2cb86f859061429b7c.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:03:26 -0700 (MST), you wrote: >If Kleopatra were to hit the Earth (at least that is what I get out of the >main page), we would be in big trouble. For those of you who do not According to Dr. Emmett Brown in one of those clips, it is Kassandra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/114_Kassandra From stm at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 1 13:36:37 2009 From: stm at bellsouth.net (Sean T. Murray) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 13:36:37 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] High Levels of Formic Acid in Tagish Lake In-Reply-To: <5F380312A8DC4007A9CE3C9EE5B4728C@walterdesktop> References: <3F897DF8BF4B40869456F14F29930DB0@Platinum2> <5F380312A8DC4007A9CE3C9EE5B4728C@walterdesktop> Message-ID: <4AAA579B616B4D6CA4961F828FA3487E@Platinum2> http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000559/ Check out entry #108 Them! (1954) (uncredited) .... Air Force Sergeant ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter Branch" To: "Sean T. Murray" ; Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] High Levels of Formic Acid in Tagish Lake > Wait a minute. I pride myself on knowing Classic scifi/horror (if you a > familier with Plan 9 From Outer Space you are in the club too) but I dont' > remember Nimoy bing in Them. Which character was he? > > -Walter Branch > ----------------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sean T. Murray" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 9:24 AM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] High Levels of Formic Acid in Tagish Lake > > > Leonard Nimoy was in "Them!". DeForest was in "Night of the Lupus" with > the > giant rabbits... Who could forget that masterpiece! I think that is what > you all are remembering. Giant ants, giant rabbits -- it was the > "Radiation > (or the occasional meteorite) made this harmless thing giant and crave > human > blood" era of movie-making. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carl 's" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 8:39 AM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] High Levels of Formic Acid in Tagish Lake > > > > > > > I love that movie! When I was a kid I remember rooting for the ants! No, > that wasn't DeForest Kelly. It's been awhile since I saw it but I believe > that was Leonard Nimoy. > > Carl > > > >>Them! had a stellar performance by a young DeForest Kelley. I don't >>think it was credited under that name though. > > > On 6/30/09, Sterling K. Webb wrote: >> For all the ant "lovers," I recommend the 1954 >> movie "THEM!" starring the venerable British >> actor Edmond Gwenn (b. 1877, first movie 1916) >> with early-career performances by James Whitmore, >> James Arness, Fess Parker and a host of character >> actors. >> >> And of course, hordes of very, very large ants. >> > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.1/2212 - Release Date: 07/01/09 > 05:53:00 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.1/2212 - Release Date: 07/01/09 05:53:00 From lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu Wed Jul 1 14:06:24 2009 From: lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu (lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:06:24 -0700 (MST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event In-Reply-To: References: <5c0bc2684399dc2cb86f859061429b7c.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> Message-ID: Hi Darren: My bad. Kassandra is only 100 km in diameter, so not quite as big as Kleo. However, it is a T-class asteroid (dark). I observed it years ago and it did not show any evidence of hydrated minerals, but have not had a chance to see if anyone has looked at it in the last decade or so. Ts are rare, so it would be nice to get a piece of one (but not too big). Larry PS At least it is not a piece of a brown dwarf! > On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:03:26 -0700 (MST), you wrote: > >>If Kleopatra were to hit the Earth (at least that is what I get out of >> the >>main page), we would be in big trouble. For those of you who do not > > According to Dr. Emmett Brown in one of those clips, it is Kassandra. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/114_Kassandra > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From damoclid at yahoo.com Wed Jul 1 14:30:42 2009 From: damoclid at yahoo.com (Richard Kowalski) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event Message-ID: <946351.39580.qm@web33907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 7/1/09, lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu wrote: > Ts are rare, > so it would be nice to get a piece of one (but not too > big). > > Larry I'm working on that last part Larry, but I got a number of complaints that TC3 turned into an Ureilite. Orders have been placed for the next one to be a C-type / Ordinary Condrite. Unfortunately the way it works is "Order what you want, get what you get"! -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA #1081 From rhartman04 at earthlink.net Wed Jul 1 14:51:27 2009 From: rhartman04 at earthlink.net (R N Hartman) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 11:51:27 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Another question for the Saw Wizards References: <569631.40817.qm@web55206.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <002301c9f9eb$9868b700$6401a8c0@DBZC5NB1> Message-ID: <001201c9fa7c$f11f0340$6401a8c0@DBZC5NB1> There are different quality blades (quantity of diamonds per unit, in the blade), and also various rim configurations. Performance varies with brand also. I think the blade is wearing out when you are seeing less even cuts, unless something is wearing in the saw itself. As I have experienced it, the CBN blades are best and primarily for cutting irons. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Galactic Stone & Ironworks" To: "R N Hartman" Cc: "Meteorite List" Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another question for the Saw Wizards > Hi Ron and List, > > I noticed that about the blade sanding it's way through the specimen. > The first slices I made were the smoothest and the prettiest. Now, > after many cuts, the blade is leaving more noticeable saw marks. > > The blade I am using is the stock/default blade that came with the > saw, so I don't know how good it really is, quality-wise. I have > another blade sold specifically to cut meteorites, it's the same > thickness but the blade is brown-colored instead of reflective bare > metal. It's also a CBN, which comes highly recommended. I wanted to > practice with the stock blade before moving on to the CBN. I also > have an extremely thin and floppy diamond blade called a laser > "dia-cut" which I haven't used yet either. > > Best regards, > > MikeG > > > On 6/30/09, R N Hartman wrote: >> That because a Diamond blade (but not all!) with the very fine continuous >> diamond mesh does not cut, it "sands". It sands its way right through >> your >> tough iron meteorite and if your saw is running smoothly it will give >> your >> slice a high polish as it finishes the cut. If you have some issues with >> the straightness of the blade or continuous feed, etc. you may get >> grooves, >> which is a sad problem! >> >> Ron Hartman >> >> Disclaimer: Use of this information, I am not responsible for lost >> fingers, >> noses or toes! >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mr EMan" >> To: "Meteorite List" ; "Galactic >> Stone >> & Ironworks" >> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 4:18 PM >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another question for the Saw Wizards >> >> >> >> Last time I cut with a diamond blade it only would cut the nail and not >> the >> skin--wanna give it a try and see if thinner blades can cut skin? >> >> Mike they make a slab holder/jig which comes in few sizes that lets you >> cut >> down below 10mm or so. Once you clamp the stone in the jig you clamp it >> in >> your saw vice. $20-30 on ebay. >> >> Elton >> >> --- On Tue, 6/30/09, Galactic Stone & Ironworks >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Listees and Stonecutters! >>> >>> After using my saw on several occasions now, I wanted to >>> share a >>> recent experience and ask a related question. >>> >>> While cutting a small unclassified NWA stone about the size >>> of a >>> walnut, my stepson showed up and started >>> watching. It made him >>> extremely nervous watching me handhold the small stone >>> while I cut it. >>> Apparently seeing my unprotected fingers a half-inch away >>> from a >>> spinning diamond blade was too much to bear. He is >>> absolutely >>> convinced I am going to cut a finger off. (Shows how >>> much confidence >>> he has in me!) LOL >>> >>> He asked why I don't use some kind of jig or holder that >>> will hold the >>> stone for me. I showed him my rock vise, which is >>> made for use with >>> this particular saw. But the vise is only good for >>> larger stones, or >>> elongated stones. It's not much good for holding very >>> small >>> acorn-sized or walnut-sized stones. So, I bravely go >>> where no fingers >>> should go. He asked what I would do if I cut off my >>> finger, and I >>> nonchalantly said I would drive myself to the nearest >>> emergency room, >>> wait my turn, get it sewed back on, and then go home with a >>> big >>> bandaged hand and type a one-handed email to the list about >>> the >>> episode. ;) >>> >>> So, my question is - how do you cut very small stones on a >>> 6" lapidary >>> saw? Do you hand hold them? Do you use some >>> kind of jig? And how >>> many digits do you still have on your hands? >>> >>> Honestly, I am not terribly worried about it. I am >>> experienced with >>> power tools and saws, so I'm not being reckless. But >>> if there is >>> something I can do to make my wife and family feel better >>> about it, >>> I'd do it. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> 10-Fingered Mike (for now) >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ......................................................... >>> Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) >>> Member of the Meteoritical Society. >>> Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. >>> Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com >>> .......................................................... >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> > > > -- > ......................................................... > Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) > Member of the Meteoritical Society. > Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. > Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com > .......................................................... From bristolia at yahoo.com Wed Jul 1 15:18:57 2009 From: bristolia at yahoo.com (Paul) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Impact Database v. 2009.1 Message-ID: <405081.93547.qm@web36208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Impact Database v. 2009.1 http://impacts.rajmon.cz/ http://impacts.rajmon.cz/IDhistory.html Yours, Paul H. From bristolia at yahoo.com Wed Jul 1 15:43:00 2009 From: bristolia at yahoo.com (Paul) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] New ASTER Global Satellite Digital Elevation Model Data Now Available Online Message-ID: <590770.5428.qm@web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Articles that describe this new global Digital Elevation Model (DEM) dataset are: 1. Most Complete Earth Map Published, BBC News, June 30, 2009 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8126197.stm 2. Most Complete Topographic Map of Earth, GM International http://www.gim-international.com/news/id3889-Most_Complete_Topographic_Map_of_Earth.html "NASA and Japan released a new digital topographic map of Earth Monday that covers more of our planet than ever before. The map was produced with detailed measurements from NASA's Terra spacecraft. The new global digital elevation model of Earth was created from nearly 1.3 million individual stereo-pair images collected by the Japanese Advanced Spaceborne Thermal Emission and Reflection Radiometer, or ASTER, instrument aboard Terra. NASA and Japan's Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry (METI), developed the data set. It is available online to users everywhere at no cost." Homepages for the ASTER Global DEM are: http://www.gdem.aster.ersdac.or.jp/ https://wist.echo.nasa.gov/~wist/api/imswelcome/ https://wist.echo.nasa.gov/wist-bin/api/ims.cgi?mode=MAINSRCH&JS=1 Yours, Paul V. Heinrich From dfpens01 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 1 16:25:30 2009 From: dfpens01 at yahoo.com (David Pensenstadler) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 13:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Another question for the Saw Wizards Message-ID: <446834.17513.qm@web90306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have used CBN blades and they do not last very long. I cut a total of 22 inches of meteorites with a blade that cost nearly $100. Unfortunately, there are not too many other choices, especially for irons. Dave --- On Wed, 7/1/09, R N Hartman wrote: > From: R N Hartman > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another question for the Saw Wizards > To: "Galactic Stone & Ironworks" > Cc: "Meteorite Central" > Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 2:51 PM > There are different quality blades > (quantity of diamonds per unit, in the blade), and also > various rim configurations.? Performance varies with > brand also.? I think the blade is wearing out when you > are seeing less even cuts, unless something is wearing in > the saw itself.? As I have experienced it, the CBN > blades are best and primarily for cutting irons. > > Ron > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Galactic Stone & > Ironworks" > To: "R N Hartman" > Cc: "Meteorite List" > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 6:52 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another question for the Saw > Wizards > > > > Hi Ron and List, > > > > I noticed that about the blade sanding it's way > through the specimen. > > The first slices I made were the smoothest and the > prettiest.? Now, > > after many cuts, the blade is leaving more noticeable > saw marks. > > > > The blade I am using is the stock/default blade that > came with the > > saw, so I don't know how good it really is, > quality-wise.? I have > > another blade sold specifically to cut meteorites, > it's the same > > thickness but the blade is brown-colored instead of > reflective bare > > metal.? It's also a CBN, which comes highly > recommended.? I wanted to > > practice with the stock blade before moving on to the > CBN.? I also > > have an extremely thin and floppy diamond blade called > a laser > > "dia-cut" which I? haven't used yet either. > > > > Best regards, > > > > MikeG > > > > > > On 6/30/09, R N Hartman > wrote: > >> That because a Diamond blade (but not all!) with > the very fine continuous > >> diamond mesh does not cut, it "sands".? It > sands its way right through your > >> tough iron meteorite and if your saw is running > smoothly it will give your > >> slice a high polish as it finishes the cut.? > If you have some issues with > >> the straightness of the blade or continuous feed, > etc. you may get grooves, > >> which is a sad problem! > >> > >> Ron Hartman > >> > >> Disclaimer:? Use of this information, I am > not responsible for lost fingers, > >> noses or toes! > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Mr EMan" > >> To: "Meteorite List" ; > "Galactic Stone > >> & Ironworks" > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 4:18 PM > >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another question for > the Saw Wizards > >> > >> > >> > >> Last time I cut with a diamond blade it only would > cut the nail and not the > >> skin--wanna give it a try and see if thinner > blades can cut skin? > >> > >> Mike they make a slab holder/jig which comes in > few sizes that lets you cut > >> down below 10mm or so. Once you clamp the stone in > the jig you clamp it in > >> your saw vice. $20-30 on ebay. > >> > >> Elton > >> > >> --- On Tue, 6/30/09, Galactic Stone & > Ironworks > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Listees and Stonecutters! > >>> > >>> After using my saw on several occasions now, I > wanted to > >>> share a > >>> recent experience and ask a related question. > >>> > >>> While cutting a small unclassified NWA stone > about the size > >>> of a > >>> walnut, my stepson showed up and started > >>> watching. It made him > >>> extremely nervous watching me handhold the > small stone > >>> while I cut it. > >>>? Apparently seeing my unprotected fingers > a half-inch away > >>> from a > >>> spinning diamond blade was too much to bear. > He is > >>> absolutely > >>> convinced I am going to cut a finger off. > (Shows how > >>> much confidence > >>> he has in me!) LOL > >>> > >>> He asked why I don't use some kind of jig or > holder that > >>> will hold the > >>> stone for me. I showed him my rock vise, which > is > >>> made for use with > >>> this particular saw. But the vise is only good > for > >>> larger stones, or > >>> elongated stones. It's not much good for > holding very > >>> small > >>> acorn-sized or walnut-sized stones. So, I > bravely go > >>> where no fingers > >>> should go. He asked what I would do if I cut > off my > >>> finger, and I > >>> nonchalantly said I would drive myself to the > nearest > >>> emergency room, > >>> wait my turn, get it sewed back on, and then > go home with a > >>> big > >>> bandaged hand and type a one-handed email to > the list about > >>> the > >>> episode. ;) > >>> > >>> So, my question is - how do you cut very small > stones on a > >>> 6" lapidary > >>> saw? Do you hand hold them? Do you use some > >>> kind of jig? And how > >>> many digits do you still have on your hands? > >>> > >>> Honestly, I am not terribly worried about it. > I am > >>> experienced with > >>> power tools and saws, so I'm not being > reckless. But > >>> if there is > >>> something I can do to make my wife and family > feel better > >>> about it, > >>> I'd do it. > >>> > >>> Best regards, > >>> > >>> 10-Fingered Mike (for now) > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > ......................................................... > >>> Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) > >>> Member of the Meteoritical Society. > >>> Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers > Network. > >>> Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com > >>> > .......................................................... > >>> > ______________________________________________ > >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >>> > >> ______________________________________________ > >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > ......................................................... > > Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) > > Member of the Meteoritical Society. > > Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. > > Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com > > > .......................................................... > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From MeteorHntr at aol.com Wed Jul 1 16:34:02 2009 From: MeteorHntr at aol.com (MeteorHntr at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 16:34:02 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: 30% Ebay Sale - 24 hours Message-ID: Hey all, Just for the fun of it, every item in my Ebay Store that had at least one person "watching" that item, I decided to place it in a 30% Off Sale. The 30% Off Sale will start at the top of the hour (5pm Eastern) and it will last for just 24 hours. Be the first to get to the "Buy it Now" button after the sale kicks in, and save a bundle. Just a little way to say "thank you" to those of you watching my listings. Check what I have out here: http://stores.ebay.com/Steve-Arnold-Meteorites?refid=store Thanks, Steve Arnold of "Meteorite Men" **************Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops ? Deals starting at $399(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222883570x1201497211/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0) From meteoritemike at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 16:42:21 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 16:42:21 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Another question for the Saw Wizards In-Reply-To: <446834.17513.qm@web90306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <446834.17513.qm@web90306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi David and List, So I should save the CBN blade for irons and use my diamond blades for the stones? Best regards, MikeG On 7/1/09, David Pensenstadler wrote: > > I have used CBN blades and they do not last very long. I cut a total of 22 > inches of meteorites with a blade that cost nearly $100. > > Unfortunately, there are not too many other choices, especially for irons. > > Dave > > --- On Wed, 7/1/09, R N Hartman wrote: > >> From: R N Hartman >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another question for the Saw Wizards >> To: "Galactic Stone & Ironworks" >> Cc: "Meteorite Central" >> Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 2:51 PM >> There are different quality blades >> (quantity of diamonds per unit, in the blade), and also >> various rim configurations. Performance varies with >> brand also. I think the blade is wearing out when you >> are seeing less even cuts, unless something is wearing in >> the saw itself. As I have experienced it, the CBN >> blades are best and primarily for cutting irons. >> >> Ron >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Galactic Stone & >> Ironworks" >> To: "R N Hartman" >> Cc: "Meteorite List" >> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 6:52 PM >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another question for the Saw >> Wizards >> >> >> > Hi Ron and List, >> > >> > I noticed that about the blade sanding it's way >> through the specimen. >> > The first slices I made were the smoothest and the >> prettiest. Now, >> > after many cuts, the blade is leaving more noticeable >> saw marks. >> > >> > The blade I am using is the stock/default blade that >> came with the >> > saw, so I don't know how good it really is, >> quality-wise. I have >> > another blade sold specifically to cut meteorites, >> it's the same >> > thickness but the blade is brown-colored instead of >> reflective bare >> > metal. It's also a CBN, which comes highly >> recommended. I wanted to >> > practice with the stock blade before moving on to the >> CBN. I also >> > have an extremely thin and floppy diamond blade called >> a laser >> > "dia-cut" which I haven't used yet either. >> > >> > Best regards, >> > >> > MikeG >> > >> > >> > On 6/30/09, R N Hartman >> wrote: >> >> That because a Diamond blade (but not all!) with >> the very fine continuous >> >> diamond mesh does not cut, it "sands". It >> sands its way right through your >> >> tough iron meteorite and if your saw is running >> smoothly it will give your >> >> slice a high polish as it finishes the cut. >> If you have some issues with >> >> the straightness of the blade or continuous feed, >> etc. you may get grooves, >> >> which is a sad problem! >> >> >> >> Ron Hartman >> >> >> >> Disclaimer: Use of this information, I am >> not responsible for lost fingers, >> >> noses or toes! >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Mr EMan" >> >> To: "Meteorite List" ; >> "Galactic Stone >> >> & Ironworks" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 4:18 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another question for >> the Saw Wizards >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Last time I cut with a diamond blade it only would >> cut the nail and not the >> >> skin--wanna give it a try and see if thinner >> blades can cut skin? >> >> >> >> Mike they make a slab holder/jig which comes in >> few sizes that lets you cut >> >> down below 10mm or so. Once you clamp the stone in >> the jig you clamp it in >> >> your saw vice. $20-30 on ebay. >> >> >> >> Elton >> >> >> >> --- On Tue, 6/30/09, Galactic Stone & >> Ironworks >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hi Listees and Stonecutters! >> >>> >> >>> After using my saw on several occasions now, I >> wanted to >> >>> share a >> >>> recent experience and ask a related question. >> >>> >> >>> While cutting a small unclassified NWA stone >> about the size >> >>> of a >> >>> walnut, my stepson showed up and started >> >>> watching. It made him >> >>> extremely nervous watching me handhold the >> small stone >> >>> while I cut it. >> >>> Apparently seeing my unprotected fingers >> a half-inch away >> >>> from a >> >>> spinning diamond blade was too much to bear. >> He is >> >>> absolutely >> >>> convinced I am going to cut a finger off. >> (Shows how >> >>> much confidence >> >>> he has in me!) LOL >> >>> >> >>> He asked why I don't use some kind of jig or >> holder that >> >>> will hold the >> >>> stone for me. I showed him my rock vise, which >> is >> >>> made for use with >> >>> this particular saw. But the vise is only good >> for >> >>> larger stones, or >> >>> elongated stones. It's not much good for >> holding very >> >>> small >> >>> acorn-sized or walnut-sized stones. So, I >> bravely go >> >>> where no fingers >> >>> should go. He asked what I would do if I cut >> off my >> >>> finger, and I >> >>> nonchalantly said I would drive myself to the >> nearest >> >>> emergency room, >> >>> wait my turn, get it sewed back on, and then >> go home with a >> >>> big >> >>> bandaged hand and type a one-handed email to >> the list about >> >>> the >> >>> episode. ;) >> >>> >> >>> So, my question is - how do you cut very small >> stones on a >> >>> 6" lapidary >> >>> saw? Do you hand hold them? Do you use some >> >>> kind of jig? And how >> >>> many digits do you still have on your hands? >> >>> >> >>> Honestly, I am not terribly worried about it. >> I am >> >>> experienced with >> >>> power tools and saws, so I'm not being >> reckless. But >> >>> if there is >> >>> something I can do to make my wife and family >> feel better >> >>> about it, >> >>> I'd do it. >> >>> >> >>> Best regards, >> >>> >> >>> 10-Fingered Mike (for now) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> >> ......................................................... >> >>> Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) >> >>> Member of the Meteoritical Society. >> >>> Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers >> Network. >> >>> Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and >> >>> http://www.glassthrower.com >> >>> >> .......................................................... >> >>> >> ______________________________________________ >> >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >> >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >>> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> ......................................................... >> > Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) >> > Member of the Meteoritical Society. >> > Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. >> > Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com >> > >> .......................................................... >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > > > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From tradman7 at comcast.net Wed Jul 1 18:14:34 2009 From: tradman7 at comcast.net (tradman7 at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 22:14:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [meteorite-list] New meteorite hunter has some questions Message-ID: <1372113615.1276591246486474320.JavaMail.root@sz0174a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Hey all, I live near Chattanooga Tennessee. I have always been interested in meteorites and astronomy, but hadnt thought much about it lately until I saw the show called "Meteorite Men" on TV. I am really wanting to look for meteorites and I have been researching the subject, reading "Rocks From Space", I have orded some magnets for testing the finds and ive made a magnet cane. I was wondering it there is any point looking in my area, knowing that we get more rain here than in the arid places, I realize that the meteorites will decay much more quickly in the damper ground. I also was wondering if purchasing a metal detector might be a good idea. I have read that the Whites GMT is a good possible option and I learned that it is designed primarily for gold hunting and it also registers the iron in the "hot rocks" which I suppose are sometimes meteorites. My thought is that very few people are looking in the southeast US, and while I havent researched yet about known falls and strewn fields in the southeast, I would think there must have been some here. I guess one question I have is, am I better off buying a metal detector that also registers coins and relics, and other items since those things are often found here, like Civil war relics, or should I try to get a detector that is better suited for the meteorites? Another question is, would the GMT be likely to detect a meteorite of say, 2 inches in diameter up to 12 inches or bigger, under several inches of damp soil or a foot or two deep? Would the moisture in the ground here already have eaten them away? I saw the guys on TV dragging that large detector around to find deeply buried large ones, and it made me think of possibly walking through some flat farm fields around here with a detector of some sort, though a handheld one is closer to being in my budget right now. I understand that those guys did lots of research about the kansas strewn field, and I know that just randomly searching farm fields in Tennessee wont be very productive, but do you think I have any alternatives to use around here to look a bit? I know that meteorites are very rare and difficult to find, but i am willing to put in the time if i think there is a chance of success. Any info you guys could give me about whether a metal detector might be a good idea, and if the GMT or another type might do better will be appreciated. Also if you could tell me what other sort of options I might have for locating them several inches or a couple of feet beneath the surface if they are large enough to be detected, and if you think the rainfall in the southeast would make searching pointless? I have seen numerous areas where the topsoil has washed away leaving lots of rocks exposed on top on the ground, and I dragged a small magnet over the ground picking up little magnetized pebbles, some of which seem to be spherical and dented with the tiny ablation dents seen on larger specimens... so this is the sort of place i have begun looking. Will I just have to settle for occasional trips out west to hunt dry lakebeds or known strewn fields, or do I have a chance for some finds around here? Thank you for your time and I would be happy for any suggestions anyone might have. Happy hunting! Forrest West From sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 1 21:16:07 2009 From: sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net (Sterling K. Webb) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 20:16:07 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event References: <916197.44926.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46A9C40A9D8C467F8C68808CBF935CB1@den> Message-ID: Hi, List, To quantify that impact, I went and ran the numbers through the online Impact Calculator that uses the Jay Melosh model: http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/ If 216 Kleopatra is 220 km x 100 km x 100 km, its volume is 17,278,875.96 km^3 or a total of (take a deep breath) 1,778,875,960,000,000 m^3. That's 1.7 quadrillion cubic meters and its mass would be at least 3.5 quadrillion metric tons. (Dogbone and Potato asteroids have lots of voids and a high porosity.) No, wait! It's 114 Kassandra? Get your Apocalypses straight, people! The volume of 114 Kassandra is less than Kleopatra: 523,598,644,700,000 cubic meters. The mass of 114 Kassandra, if rock, has to be at a minimum of 1,500,000,000,000,000 tons, although some sources say it's only 1,000,000,000,000,000. That big number is a Quadrillion tons, in case you want to know. OK, it's Kassandra! Smaller, lighter. Really puny. I gave it an intercept velocity of 47 km/s, a little slow for an eccentric orbit from the Asteroid Zone, and an incidence angle of 45 degrees. The energy of the collision is 1.20 x 10^24 Joules or 268,000,000 MegaTons TNT. The Calculator says "The average interval between impacts of this size somewhere on Earth during the last 4 billion years is 360,000,000 years." That energy is the equivalent of an explosion created by detonating a nuclear arsenal 1800 times bigger than the entire nuclear arsenals of all the nations of the world -- at once. The final crater diameter is 39.5 km or 24.5 miles; its final depth is 0.895 km or 0.556 miles. That seems oddly small for something so big. Why is that? Well, the Calculator says that the final crater is replaced by a large, circular melt province. The volume of the target melted or vaporized is 6410 cubic km or 1540 cubic miles. The melt volume is 2.87 times the crater volume If 114 Kassandra hit Los Angeles, you'd probably be alright (for a while) if you were in New York City (or Boston). You'd be alright, that is, if you can withstand the shock wave which, at that distance, would have a wind velocity of 140 mph, or a hurricane-level Force Nine Gale on the Beaufort Scale. Where I live, it'll be over 205 mph. The real problem, I suspect, is in the vaporization of a substantial percentage of that "melt province." If 10% of the rock vaporized, or 1.5 trillion tons of rock vapor would be distributed very quickly through the atmosphere at temperatures of more than 2000 degrees F. That quantity of rock vapor amounts to about 20,000 tons of rock vapor per square mile of the Earth's surface. The Impact Calculator does not discuss the contribution of the asteroid to the mass of rock vapor. I would suggest that at least 1% of it would survive as "mere" rock vapor (instead of plasma) -- that's an additional ten trillion tons, raising the distribution to 110,000 tons of rock vapor per square mile of the Earth's surface (about 190,000,000 square miles). I suggest a very study, fireproofed umbrella would be a good idea if you plan on going out... This is an impact at least 30 to 50 times worse than the Chicxulub Impact which, it has been suggested, burned most of the vegetation off the planet with its rock vapor plume. 114 Kassandra's effect could only be characterized as the "Krispy Kritter" impact. It sounds like a a lousy environment in which to stage a mini-series. But... That's Entertainment! Sterling K. Webb ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event If Kleopatra were to hit the Earth (at least that is what I get out of the main page), we would be in big trouble. For those of you who do not remember, 216 Kleopatra, thanks to radar observations, looks very much like a big dog bone, 220 kilometers long and 100 kilometers across. Larry ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darren Garrison" To: "Meteorite List" Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 11:38 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event > http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEn3LrswY8Zyro > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 1 21:52:44 2009 From: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com (Carl 's) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 18:52:44 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] High Levels of Formic Acid in Tagish Lake Message-ID: Hi Walter and All, To see a young L. Nimoy, look at the 3 minute mark on youtube, THEM!(1954) Part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdqIiF8uj5M&feature=PlayList&p=F6FFC5E5C7E45151&index=5 Carl Sean wrote: >Check out entry #108 Them! (1954) (uncredited) .... Air Force Sergeant >Wait a minute. I pride myself on knowing Classic scifi/horror (if you a familier with Plan 9 From Outer Space you are in the club too) but I dont' remember Nimoy bing in Them. Which character was he? -Walter Branch _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 From lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu Wed Jul 1 22:03:46 2009 From: lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu (lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 19:03:46 -0700 (MST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event In-Reply-To: References: <916197.44926.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46A9C40A9D8C467F8C68808CBF935CB1@den> Message-ID: <8dc0bd125d3f09b1a045d9fcc01c4f51.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> Hi Sterling: I will admit that, at first, I got the wrong asteroid (though now more interesting composition) and I am never one to say you are wrong, but... YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! Sorry, that felt good! If you go by Wikipedia, you lost 3 zeros 1x10^18 bit 1X10^15. It would be had to believe that a 100-km diameter object (give or take) would make a 40-km hole in the ground unless it was going real slow and hit a really hard surface. Somthing that big would probably make a hole 1000 km or so across (at least), which would make it a bad day even for the roaches. Oh, did I forget to mention: You are wrong! It is a rare day that I get to say that to you Sterling, sorry. Larry > Hi, List, > > To quantify that impact, I went and ran the numbers > through the online Impact Calculator that uses the > Jay Melosh model: > http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/ > > If 216 Kleopatra is 220 km x 100 km x 100 km, its > volume is 17,278,875.96 km^3 or a total of (take a > deep breath) 1,778,875,960,000,000 m^3. That's > 1.7 quadrillion cubic meters and its mass would be at > least 3.5 quadrillion metric tons. (Dogbone and Potato > asteroids have lots of voids and a high porosity.) > > No, wait! It's 114 Kassandra? Get your Apocalypses > straight, people! > > The volume of 114 Kassandra is less than Kleopatra: > 523,598,644,700,000 cubic meters. The mass of > 114 Kassandra, if rock, has to be at a minimum of > 1,500,000,000,000,000 tons, although some sources > say it's only 1,000,000,000,000,000. That big number > is a Quadrillion tons, in case you want to know. > > OK, it's Kassandra! Smaller, lighter. Really puny. > I gave it an intercept velocity of 47 km/s, a little > slow for an eccentric orbit from the Asteroid Zone, > and an incidence angle of 45 degrees. > > The energy of the collision is 1.20 x 10^24 Joules > or 268,000,000 MegaTons TNT. The Calculator says > "The average interval between impacts of this size > somewhere on Earth during the last 4 billion years > is 360,000,000 years." > > That energy is the equivalent of an explosion created > by detonating a nuclear arsenal 1800 times bigger > than the entire nuclear arsenals of all the nations of > the world -- at once. > > The final crater diameter is 39.5 km or 24.5 miles; > its final depth is 0.895 km or 0.556 miles. That seems > oddly small for something so big. Why is that? Well, > the Calculator says that the final crater is replaced > by a large, circular melt province. The volume of the > target melted or vaporized is 6410 cubic km or 1540 > cubic miles. The melt volume is 2.87 times the > crater volume > > If 114 Kassandra hit Los Angeles, you'd probably be > alright (for a while) if you were in New York City (or > Boston). You'd be alright, that is, if you can withstand > the shock wave which, at that distance, would have > a wind velocity of 140 mph, or a hurricane-level > Force Nine Gale on the Beaufort Scale. Where I live, > it'll be over 205 mph. > > The real problem, I suspect, is in the vaporization of > a substantial percentage of that "melt province." If > 10% of the rock vaporized, or 1.5 trillion tons of rock > vapor would be distributed very quickly through the > atmosphere at temperatures of more than 2000 > degrees F. That quantity of rock vapor amounts to > about 20,000 tons of rock vapor per square mile > of the Earth's surface. > > The Impact Calculator does not discuss the contribution > of the asteroid to the mass of rock vapor. I would suggest > that at least 1% of it would survive as "mere" rock vapor > (instead of plasma) -- that's an additional ten trillion tons, > raising the distribution to 110,000 tons of rock vapor per > square mile of the Earth's surface (about 190,000,000 > square miles). > > I suggest a very study, fireproofed umbrella would > be a good idea if you plan on going out... > > This is an impact at least 30 to 50 times worse than > the Chicxulub Impact which, it has been suggested, > burned most of the vegetation off the planet with its > rock vapor plume. 114 Kassandra's effect could only > be characterized as the "Krispy Kritter" impact. > > It sounds like a a lousy environment in which to > stage a mini-series. But... That's Entertainment! > > > > Sterling K. Webb > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 12:03 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event > > > If Kleopatra were to hit the Earth (at least that is what I get out of > the > main page), we would be in big trouble. For those of you who do not > remember, 216 Kleopatra, thanks to radar observations, looks very much > like a big dog bone, 220 kilometers long and 100 kilometers across. > > Larry > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Darren Garrison" > To: "Meteorite List" > Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 11:38 AM > Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event > > >> http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEn3LrswY8Zyro >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 1 23:39:34 2009 From: sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net (Sterling K. Webb) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 22:39:34 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event References: <916197.44926.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46A9C40A9D8C467F8C68808CBF935CB1@den> <8dc0bd125d3f09b1a045d9fcc01c4f51.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> Message-ID: Hi, Larry, List, Yes, I am WRONG! However, my mistake was not the one you hypothesized. The Wikipedia gives mass in kilograms and I reduced the quantity by 1000 to convert it to tons (10^18 kg = 10^15 metric tons), correctly. No, it was density. I think in grams per cubic centimeter when I think density. Water = 1.0, rock = 2.5, and so forth. The training is strong; one thinks in specific density. But the online Calculator wants kilograms per cubic meter, where water = 1000, rock = 2500, and so forth. So I calculated the impact of a 100 kilometer diameter SNOWFLAKE ! One with a specific density of about 0.022, a little fat for a snowflake, actually... So, if you ever want to know what impact a really big snowflake would have, you've got it now. The actual figures? The energy is 304,000,000,000 megatons. The crater is 1240 km (770 miles) across and would be 2500 meters deep before it fills with melt. The impact would melt 2,000,000 CUBIC MILES of the Earth's crust, and the melt zone extends to a depth of 35 kilometers, which in some places would take it down into the mantle itself, and it would certainly rebound and produce basalt flooding of incomprehensible magnitude, likely enough to flood and re-surface an entire continent. The "crater" would be a complex multi-ringed basin about the same size as the Moon's Mare Imbrium! Big enough for you now? This is a continent destroyer. The shock of the impact, would be a world-wide Richter Scale 12.3, strong enough to kill all animal life. The wind at the antipodeal point to the impact would be 385 mph. At just a quarter of the way around the planet (10,000 km away), the winds would be 835 mph. The fireball of the impact would be over 300 kilometers in diameter (190 miles) and it would be visible for 5570 kilometers (3500 miles). The thermal flux would be 53 times brighter than the Sun and everything organic within the line of sight would combust. This fireball would persist for nearly 8 hours (7 hours 42 minutes) before cooling enough to collapse. The shock wave there (3500 miles away) would be over 2000 mph, or about Mach 3. Major extinction event, clearly. I can't speak to the roaches; no one knows what it takes to wipe them out, if indeed it's even possible. Still, at the worst, the sulfur-eating thermophiles in the deep vents would survive just fine, fat and happy, and they could start this evolution thing all over again, something they've probably had to do before, as the universal inclusion of the 16S rna ribosome in most living things attests to. A little better? Sterling K. Webb -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Sterling K. Webb" Cc: ; "Meteorite List" Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event > Hi Sterling: > > I will admit that, at first, I got the wrong asteroid (though now more > interesting composition) and I am never one to say you are wrong, > but... > > YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! > > Sorry, that felt good! > > If you go by Wikipedia, you lost 3 zeros 1x10^18 bit 1X10^15. It would > be > had to believe that a 100-km diameter object (give or take) would make > a > 40-km hole in the ground unless it was going real slow and hit a > really > hard surface. > > Somthing that big would probably make a hole 1000 km or so across (at > least), which would make it a bad day even for the roaches. > > Oh, did I forget to mention: > > You are wrong! It is a rare day that I get to say that to you > Sterling, > sorry. > > Larry > >> Hi, List, >> >> To quantify that impact, I went and ran the numbers >> through the online Impact Calculator that uses the >> Jay Melosh model: >> http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/ >> >> If 216 Kleopatra is 220 km x 100 km x 100 km, its >> volume is 17,278,875.96 km^3 or a total of (take a >> deep breath) 1,778,875,960,000,000 m^3. That's >> 1.7 quadrillion cubic meters and its mass would be at >> least 3.5 quadrillion metric tons. (Dogbone and Potato >> asteroids have lots of voids and a high porosity.) >> >> No, wait! It's 114 Kassandra? Get your Apocalypses >> straight, people! >> >> The volume of 114 Kassandra is less than Kleopatra: >> 523,598,644,700,000 cubic meters. The mass of >> 114 Kassandra, if rock, has to be at a minimum of >> 1,500,000,000,000,000 tons, although some sources >> say it's only 1,000,000,000,000,000. That big number >> is a Quadrillion tons, in case you want to know. >> >> OK, it's Kassandra! Smaller, lighter. Really puny. >> I gave it an intercept velocity of 47 km/s, a little >> slow for an eccentric orbit from the Asteroid Zone, >> and an incidence angle of 45 degrees. >> >> The energy of the collision is 1.20 x 10^24 Joules >> or 268,000,000 MegaTons TNT. The Calculator says >> "The average interval between impacts of this size >> somewhere on Earth during the last 4 billion years >> is 360,000,000 years." >> >> That energy is the equivalent of an explosion created >> by detonating a nuclear arsenal 1800 times bigger >> than the entire nuclear arsenals of all the nations of >> the world -- at once. >> >> The final crater diameter is 39.5 km or 24.5 miles; >> its final depth is 0.895 km or 0.556 miles. That seems >> oddly small for something so big. Why is that? Well, >> the Calculator says that the final crater is replaced >> by a large, circular melt province. The volume of the >> target melted or vaporized is 6410 cubic km or 1540 >> cubic miles. The melt volume is 2.87 times the >> crater volume >> >> If 114 Kassandra hit Los Angeles, you'd probably be >> alright (for a while) if you were in New York City (or >> Boston). You'd be alright, that is, if you can withstand >> the shock wave which, at that distance, would have >> a wind velocity of 140 mph, or a hurricane-level >> Force Nine Gale on the Beaufort Scale. Where I live, >> it'll be over 205 mph. >> >> The real problem, I suspect, is in the vaporization of >> a substantial percentage of that "melt province." If >> 10% of the rock vaporized, or 1.5 trillion tons of rock >> vapor would be distributed very quickly through the >> atmosphere at temperatures of more than 2000 >> degrees F. That quantity of rock vapor amounts to >> about 20,000 tons of rock vapor per square mile >> of the Earth's surface. >> >> The Impact Calculator does not discuss the contribution >> of the asteroid to the mass of rock vapor. I would suggest >> that at least 1% of it would survive as "mere" rock vapor >> (instead of plasma) -- that's an additional ten trillion tons, >> raising the distribution to 110,000 tons of rock vapor per >> square mile of the Earth's surface (about 190,000,000 >> square miles). >> >> I suggest a very study, fireproofed umbrella would >> be a good idea if you plan on going out... >> >> This is an impact at least 30 to 50 times worse than >> the Chicxulub Impact which, it has been suggested, >> burned most of the vegetation off the planet with its >> rock vapor plume. 114 Kassandra's effect could only >> be characterized as the "Krispy Kritter" impact. >> >> It sounds like a a lousy environment in which to >> stage a mini-series. But... That's Entertainment! >> >> >> >> Sterling K. Webb >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Cc: >> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 12:03 PM >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV >> event >> >> >> If Kleopatra were to hit the Earth (at least that is what I get out >> of >> the >> main page), we would be in big trouble. For those of you who do not >> remember, 216 Kleopatra, thanks to radar observations, looks very >> much >> like a big dog bone, 220 kilometers long and 100 kilometers across. >> >> Larry >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Darren Garrison" >> To: "Meteorite List" >> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 11:38 AM >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event >> >> >>> http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEn3LrswY8Zyro >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > From bristolia at yahoo.com Thu Jul 2 00:00:33 2009 From: bristolia at yahoo.com (Paul) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 21:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Are these Alleged "Impact Events" Either for Real or of Any Significance? Message-ID: <414202.40300.qm@web36205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Friends, Does anybody have any information on the below alleged "impact events"? Is there any documentation for them having ever happened? 1. Cando event http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cando_event 2. Vitim event http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitim_event 3. Eastern Mediterranean event http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Mediterranean_Event If any of the above "events" are for real, were any of any significance? Yours, Paul H. From mikewren at gilanet.com Thu Jul 2 00:13:05 2009 From: mikewren at gilanet.com (michael cottingham) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 21:13:05 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: EXTREMELY SERIOUS AUCTIONS UP FOR THE WEEK! Happy 4th of July To All! Message-ID: <3DC40129-3CEA-4EE2-BA33-C69C87F0408E@gilanet.com> Hello, Auctions up for the week-MOST CERTAINLY WORTH A LOOK! http://shop.ebay.com:80/merchant/meteorite-collector_W0QQLHQ5fAuctionZ1QQ Thanks and Best Wishes Michael Cottingham From drtanuki at yahoo.com Thu Jul 2 00:16:30 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 21:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Are these Alleged "Impact Events" Either for Real or of Any Significance? Message-ID: <898239.17315.qm@web53108.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Paul, The Vitim Event was real but the study results have been slow to come out of Russia. Last report: Geophysical Research Abstracts, Vol. 7, 00257, 2005 SRef-ID: 1607-7962/gra/EGU05-A-00257 ? European Geosciences Union 2005 Some atmospheric and magnetospheric effects possibly related to the Vitim bolide impact E.A. Kasatkina and O.I. Shumilov Institute of North Industrial Ecology Problems, Kola Science Centre RAS, 184209 Apatity, Russia Sensors aboard US Department of Defence satellites detected the impact of a bolide on 24 September 2002 at 16:49 UT. The bolide had disappeared at an altitude of 30 km above the Vitim river, Siberia (58.21N, 113.46E). The total radiated energy was 8.6x10?11 Joules. An unusual infrasonic event with a 30-minute duration has been detected by the Apatity infrasonic array at Kola Peninsula (67.3N, 33.3E) on September 24, 2002 at 22:20 UT. The infrasonic signal had been detected by three spatially separated microbarographs operating in the passband from 0.0001 to 1 Hertz at a distance of 4000 km from the source. Estimates of the local infrasound velocity and the direction of the signal arrival seem to be in agreement with the acoustic travel velocity and the source azimuth. We cannot exclude that the Vitim bolide (or minicomet) effects were as well appeared at some other atmospheric and magnetospheric phenomena, e.g. in magnetic disturbances at high latitude stations, cosmic radionoise absorption, variations of air conductivity. These effects are compared with some other similar effects related to different bolides like Tunguska and Brasilian ones. A possible nature of the effects is discussed. The work was partially supported by Russian Foundation for Basic Research (grant N 05-06-97528) and also by RAS program "Electric processes and radiophysical methods of investigations". --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Paul wrote: > From: Paul > Subject: [meteorite-list] Are these Alleged "Impact Events" Either for Real or of Any Significance? > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 1:00 PM > > Dear Friends, > > Does anybody have any information on the below alleged > "impact events"? > > Is there any documentation for them having ever happened? > > 1. Cando event > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cando_event > > 2. Vitim event > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitim_event > > 3. Eastern Mediterranean event > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Mediterranean_Event > > If any of the above "events" are for real, were any of any > significance? > > Yours, > > Paul H. > > > > > ? ? ? > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu Thu Jul 2 00:17:21 2009 From: lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu (lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 21:17:21 -0700 (MST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event In-Reply-To: References: <916197.44926.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46A9C40A9D8C467F8C68808CBF935CB1@den> <8dc0bd125d3f09b1a045d9fcc01c4f51.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> Message-ID: <0dcf96a28d1a7a3eb56a8afeee76e599.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> Hi Sterling: Sounds more reasonable, if destroying everything is reasonable. Any idea how often these occur? This is 5 times the diameter of either Sudbury or Vredefort and these are more than a billion years old. Maybe this is big enough to punch through the mantle and bury itself in magma. Larry > Hi, Larry, List, > > Yes, I am WRONG! However, my mistake was not the > one you hypothesized. The Wikipedia gives mass in > kilograms and I reduced the quantity by 1000 to > convert it to tons (10^18 kg = 10^15 metric tons), > correctly. > > No, it was density. I think in grams per cubic centimeter > when I think density. Water = 1.0, rock = 2.5, and > so forth. The training is strong; one thinks in specific > density. But the online Calculator wants kilograms > per cubic meter, where water = 1000, rock = 2500, and > so forth. > > So I calculated the impact of a 100 kilometer diameter > SNOWFLAKE ! One with a specific density of about > 0.022, a little fat for a snowflake, actually... So, if you > ever want to know what impact a really big snowflake > would have, you've got it now. > > The actual figures? The energy is 304,000,000,000 > megatons. The crater is 1240 km (770 miles) across > and would be 2500 meters deep before it fills with > melt. The impact would melt 2,000,000 CUBIC MILES > of the Earth's crust, and the melt zone extends to a > depth of 35 kilometers, which in some places would > take it down into the mantle itself, and it would > certainly rebound and produce basalt flooding of > incomprehensible magnitude, likely enough to flood > and re-surface an entire continent. The "crater" > would be a complex multi-ringed basin about the > same size as the Moon's Mare Imbrium! > > Big enough for you now? > > This is a continent destroyer. The shock of the impact, > would be a world-wide Richter Scale 12.3, strong enough > to kill all animal life. The wind at the antipodeal point to > the impact would be 385 mph. At just a quarter of the way > around the planet (10,000 km away), the winds would > be 835 mph. > > The fireball of the impact would be over 300 kilometers > in diameter (190 miles) and it would be visible for 5570 > kilometers (3500 miles). The thermal flux would be 53 > times brighter than the Sun and everything organic within > the line of sight would combust. This fireball would persist > for nearly 8 hours (7 hours 42 minutes) before cooling > enough to collapse. The shock wave there (3500 miles > away) would be over 2000 mph, or about Mach 3. > > Major extinction event, clearly. > > I can't speak to the roaches; no one knows what it takes > to wipe them out, if indeed it's even possible. Still, at > the worst, the sulfur-eating thermophiles in the deep > vents would survive just fine, fat and happy, and they > could start this evolution thing all over again, something > they've probably had to do before, as the universal inclusion > of the 16S rna ribosome in most living things attests to. > > A little better? > > > Sterling K. Webb > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Sterling K. Webb" > Cc: ; "Meteorite List" > > Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 9:03 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event > > >> Hi Sterling: >> >> I will admit that, at first, I got the wrong asteroid (though now more >> interesting composition) and I am never one to say you are wrong, >> but... >> >> YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! >> >> Sorry, that felt good! >> >> If you go by Wikipedia, you lost 3 zeros 1x10^18 bit 1X10^15. It would >> be >> had to believe that a 100-km diameter object (give or take) would make >> a >> 40-km hole in the ground unless it was going real slow and hit a >> really >> hard surface. >> >> Somthing that big would probably make a hole 1000 km or so across (at >> least), which would make it a bad day even for the roaches. >> >> Oh, did I forget to mention: >> >> You are wrong! It is a rare day that I get to say that to you >> Sterling, >> sorry. >> >> Larry >> >>> Hi, List, >>> >>> To quantify that impact, I went and ran the numbers >>> through the online Impact Calculator that uses the >>> Jay Melosh model: >>> http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/ >>> >>> If 216 Kleopatra is 220 km x 100 km x 100 km, its >>> volume is 17,278,875.96 km^3 or a total of (take a >>> deep breath) 1,778,875,960,000,000 m^3. That's >>> 1.7 quadrillion cubic meters and its mass would be at >>> least 3.5 quadrillion metric tons. (Dogbone and Potato >>> asteroids have lots of voids and a high porosity.) >>> >>> No, wait! It's 114 Kassandra? Get your Apocalypses >>> straight, people! >>> >>> The volume of 114 Kassandra is less than Kleopatra: >>> 523,598,644,700,000 cubic meters. The mass of >>> 114 Kassandra, if rock, has to be at a minimum of >>> 1,500,000,000,000,000 tons, although some sources >>> say it's only 1,000,000,000,000,000. That big number >>> is a Quadrillion tons, in case you want to know. >>> >>> OK, it's Kassandra! Smaller, lighter. Really puny. >>> I gave it an intercept velocity of 47 km/s, a little >>> slow for an eccentric orbit from the Asteroid Zone, >>> and an incidence angle of 45 degrees. >>> >>> The energy of the collision is 1.20 x 10^24 Joules >>> or 268,000,000 MegaTons TNT. The Calculator says >>> "The average interval between impacts of this size >>> somewhere on Earth during the last 4 billion years >>> is 360,000,000 years." >>> >>> That energy is the equivalent of an explosion created >>> by detonating a nuclear arsenal 1800 times bigger >>> than the entire nuclear arsenals of all the nations of >>> the world -- at once. >>> >>> The final crater diameter is 39.5 km or 24.5 miles; >>> its final depth is 0.895 km or 0.556 miles. That seems >>> oddly small for something so big. Why is that? Well, >>> the Calculator says that the final crater is replaced >>> by a large, circular melt province. The volume of the >>> target melted or vaporized is 6410 cubic km or 1540 >>> cubic miles. The melt volume is 2.87 times the >>> crater volume >>> >>> If 114 Kassandra hit Los Angeles, you'd probably be >>> alright (for a while) if you were in New York City (or >>> Boston). You'd be alright, that is, if you can withstand >>> the shock wave which, at that distance, would have >>> a wind velocity of 140 mph, or a hurricane-level >>> Force Nine Gale on the Beaufort Scale. Where I live, >>> it'll be over 205 mph. >>> >>> The real problem, I suspect, is in the vaporization of >>> a substantial percentage of that "melt province." If >>> 10% of the rock vaporized, or 1.5 trillion tons of rock >>> vapor would be distributed very quickly through the >>> atmosphere at temperatures of more than 2000 >>> degrees F. That quantity of rock vapor amounts to >>> about 20,000 tons of rock vapor per square mile >>> of the Earth's surface. >>> >>> The Impact Calculator does not discuss the contribution >>> of the asteroid to the mass of rock vapor. I would suggest >>> that at least 1% of it would survive as "mere" rock vapor >>> (instead of plasma) -- that's an additional ten trillion tons, >>> raising the distribution to 110,000 tons of rock vapor per >>> square mile of the Earth's surface (about 190,000,000 >>> square miles). >>> >>> I suggest a very study, fireproofed umbrella would >>> be a good idea if you plan on going out... >>> >>> This is an impact at least 30 to 50 times worse than >>> the Chicxulub Impact which, it has been suggested, >>> burned most of the vegetation off the planet with its >>> rock vapor plume. 114 Kassandra's effect could only >>> be characterized as the "Krispy Kritter" impact. >>> >>> It sounds like a a lousy environment in which to >>> stage a mini-series. But... That's Entertainment! >>> >>> >>> >>> Sterling K. Webb >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ------ Original Message ----- >>> From: >>> To: >>> Cc: >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 12:03 PM >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV >>> event >>> >>> >>> If Kleopatra were to hit the Earth (at least that is what I get out >>> of >>> the >>> main page), we would be in big trouble. For those of you who do not >>> remember, 216 Kleopatra, thanks to radar observations, looks very >>> much >>> like a big dog bone, 220 kilometers long and 100 kilometers across. >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Darren Garrison" >>> To: "Meteorite List" >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 11:38 AM >>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event >>> >>> >>>> http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEn3LrswY8Zyro >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >> >> > From sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 2 01:23:03 2009 From: sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net (Sterling K. Webb) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 00:23:03 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event References: <916197.44926.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46A9C40A9D8C467F8C68808CBF935CB1@den> <8dc0bd125d3f09b1a045d9fcc01c4f51.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> <0dcf96a28d1a7a3eb56a8afeee76e599.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> Message-ID: Hi, Larry, List, The Melosh model says this is a "once-in-a-lifetime" event, meaning once in 4 billion years. That however would not include that first 500 or 600 million years, the Hadean Era. At some point, this and bigger events must have happened to the Earth. One has only to look at the Moon and its visible record. For every basin we see there, picture 18 just like it on the Earth. I suspect the rock-melting calculations of the model are flawed at this scale. Punching though (or deep enough into) the crust would not let anything be buried. Instead, the release of pressure on the high-pressure high-temperature interior would cause it to melt, boil and explode outward. It would expose the near-molten rock at 30 km down, which is at a pressure of 150,000 pounds per square inch, to the vacuum of deep space (for all practical purposes, our atmosphere doesn't count). Gravity need not be taken into account in the gas laws, but in a planetary body it is the source of all interior pressure, right down to the 52,500,000 pounds per square inch found at the center of the Earth. I suspect that puncturing the thin but very rigid skin of a planet would produce not merely basalt flooding, but initially an immense "fire-fountain" type of volcano that would blast material right out through the atmosphere. What a sight that would be! I suspect you'd want to watch from high orbit or maybe the Moon, though. Sterling K. Webb -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Sterling K. Webb" Cc: ; ; "Meteorite List" Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 11:17 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event > Hi Sterling: > > Sounds more reasonable, if destroying everything is reasonable. > > Any idea how often these occur? This is 5 times the diameter of either > Sudbury or Vredefort and these are more than a billion years old. > > Maybe this is big enough to punch through the mantle and bury itself > in > magma. > > > Larry > > >> Hi, Larry, List, >> >> Yes, I am WRONG! However, my mistake was not the >> one you hypothesized. The Wikipedia gives mass in >> kilograms and I reduced the quantity by 1000 to >> convert it to tons (10^18 kg = 10^15 metric tons), >> correctly. >> >> No, it was density. I think in grams per cubic centimeter >> when I think density. Water = 1.0, rock = 2.5, and >> so forth. The training is strong; one thinks in specific >> density. But the online Calculator wants kilograms >> per cubic meter, where water = 1000, rock = 2500, and >> so forth. >> >> So I calculated the impact of a 100 kilometer diameter >> SNOWFLAKE ! One with a specific density of about >> 0.022, a little fat for a snowflake, actually... So, if you >> ever want to know what impact a really big snowflake >> would have, you've got it now. >> >> The actual figures? The energy is 304,000,000,000 >> megatons. The crater is 1240 km (770 miles) across >> and would be 2500 meters deep before it fills with >> melt. The impact would melt 2,000,000 CUBIC MILES >> of the Earth's crust, and the melt zone extends to a >> depth of 35 kilometers, which in some places would >> take it down into the mantle itself, and it would >> certainly rebound and produce basalt flooding of >> incomprehensible magnitude, likely enough to flood >> and re-surface an entire continent. The "crater" >> would be a complex multi-ringed basin about the >> same size as the Moon's Mare Imbrium! >> >> Big enough for you now? >> >> This is a continent destroyer. The shock of the impact, >> would be a world-wide Richter Scale 12.3, strong enough >> to kill all animal life. The wind at the antipodeal point to >> the impact would be 385 mph. At just a quarter of the way >> around the planet (10,000 km away), the winds would >> be 835 mph. >> >> The fireball of the impact would be over 300 kilometers >> in diameter (190 miles) and it would be visible for 5570 >> kilometers (3500 miles). The thermal flux would be 53 >> times brighter than the Sun and everything organic within >> the line of sight would combust. This fireball would persist >> for nearly 8 hours (7 hours 42 minutes) before cooling >> enough to collapse. The shock wave there (3500 miles >> away) would be over 2000 mph, or about Mach 3. >> >> Major extinction event, clearly. >> >> I can't speak to the roaches; no one knows what it takes >> to wipe them out, if indeed it's even possible. Still, at >> the worst, the sulfur-eating thermophiles in the deep >> vents would survive just fine, fat and happy, and they >> could start this evolution thing all over again, something >> they've probably had to do before, as the universal inclusion >> of the 16S rna ribosome in most living things attests to. >> >> A little better? >> >> >> Sterling K. Webb >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: "Sterling K. Webb" >> Cc: ; "Meteorite List" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 9:03 PM >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV >> event >> >> >>> Hi Sterling: >>> >>> I will admit that, at first, I got the wrong asteroid (though now >>> more >>> interesting composition) and I am never one to say you are wrong, >>> but... >>> >>> YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! >>> >>> Sorry, that felt good! >>> >>> If you go by Wikipedia, you lost 3 zeros 1x10^18 bit 1X10^15. It >>> would >>> be >>> had to believe that a 100-km diameter object (give or take) would >>> make >>> a >>> 40-km hole in the ground unless it was going real slow and hit a >>> really >>> hard surface. >>> >>> Somthing that big would probably make a hole 1000 km or so across >>> (at >>> least), which would make it a bad day even for the roaches. >>> >>> Oh, did I forget to mention: >>> >>> You are wrong! It is a rare day that I get to say that to you >>> Sterling, >>> sorry. >>> >>> Larry >>> >>>> Hi, List, >>>> >>>> To quantify that impact, I went and ran the numbers >>>> through the online Impact Calculator that uses the >>>> Jay Melosh model: >>>> http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/ >>>> >>>> If 216 Kleopatra is 220 km x 100 km x 100 km, its >>>> volume is 17,278,875.96 km^3 or a total of (take a >>>> deep breath) 1,778,875,960,000,000 m^3. That's >>>> 1.7 quadrillion cubic meters and its mass would be at >>>> least 3.5 quadrillion metric tons. (Dogbone and Potato >>>> asteroids have lots of voids and a high porosity.) >>>> >>>> No, wait! It's 114 Kassandra? Get your Apocalypses >>>> straight, people! >>>> >>>> The volume of 114 Kassandra is less than Kleopatra: >>>> 523,598,644,700,000 cubic meters. The mass of >>>> 114 Kassandra, if rock, has to be at a minimum of >>>> 1,500,000,000,000,000 tons, although some sources >>>> say it's only 1,000,000,000,000,000. That big number >>>> is a Quadrillion tons, in case you want to know. >>>> >>>> OK, it's Kassandra! Smaller, lighter. Really puny. >>>> I gave it an intercept velocity of 47 km/s, a little >>>> slow for an eccentric orbit from the Asteroid Zone, >>>> and an incidence angle of 45 degrees. >>>> >>>> The energy of the collision is 1.20 x 10^24 Joules >>>> or 268,000,000 MegaTons TNT. The Calculator says >>>> "The average interval between impacts of this size >>>> somewhere on Earth during the last 4 billion years >>>> is 360,000,000 years." >>>> >>>> That energy is the equivalent of an explosion created >>>> by detonating a nuclear arsenal 1800 times bigger >>>> than the entire nuclear arsenals of all the nations of >>>> the world -- at once. >>>> >>>> The final crater diameter is 39.5 km or 24.5 miles; >>>> its final depth is 0.895 km or 0.556 miles. That seems >>>> oddly small for something so big. Why is that? Well, >>>> the Calculator says that the final crater is replaced >>>> by a large, circular melt province. The volume of the >>>> target melted or vaporized is 6410 cubic km or 1540 >>>> cubic miles. The melt volume is 2.87 times the >>>> crater volume >>>> >>>> If 114 Kassandra hit Los Angeles, you'd probably be >>>> alright (for a while) if you were in New York City (or >>>> Boston). You'd be alright, that is, if you can withstand >>>> the shock wave which, at that distance, would have >>>> a wind velocity of 140 mph, or a hurricane-level >>>> Force Nine Gale on the Beaufort Scale. Where I live, >>>> it'll be over 205 mph. >>>> >>>> The real problem, I suspect, is in the vaporization of >>>> a substantial percentage of that "melt province." If >>>> 10% of the rock vaporized, or 1.5 trillion tons of rock >>>> vapor would be distributed very quickly through the >>>> atmosphere at temperatures of more than 2000 >>>> degrees F. That quantity of rock vapor amounts to >>>> about 20,000 tons of rock vapor per square mile >>>> of the Earth's surface. >>>> >>>> The Impact Calculator does not discuss the contribution >>>> of the asteroid to the mass of rock vapor. I would suggest >>>> that at least 1% of it would survive as "mere" rock vapor >>>> (instead of plasma) -- that's an additional ten trillion tons, >>>> raising the distribution to 110,000 tons of rock vapor per >>>> square mile of the Earth's surface (about 190,000,000 >>>> square miles). >>>> >>>> I suggest a very study, fireproofed umbrella would >>>> be a good idea if you plan on going out... >>>> >>>> This is an impact at least 30 to 50 times worse than >>>> the Chicxulub Impact which, it has been suggested, >>>> burned most of the vegetation off the planet with its >>>> rock vapor plume. 114 Kassandra's effect could only >>>> be characterized as the "Krispy Kritter" impact. >>>> >>>> It sounds like a a lousy environment in which to >>>> stage a mini-series. But... That's Entertainment! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sterling K. Webb >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ------ Original Message ----- >>>> From: >>>> To: >>>> Cc: >>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 12:03 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV >>>> event >>>> >>>> >>>> If Kleopatra were to hit the Earth (at least that is what I get out >>>> of >>>> the >>>> main page), we would be in big trouble. For those of you who do not >>>> remember, 216 Kleopatra, thanks to radar observations, looks very >>>> much >>>> like a big dog bone, 220 kilometers long and 100 kilometers across. >>>> >>>> Larry >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Darren Garrison" >>>> To: "Meteorite List" >>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 11:38 AM >>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event >>>> >>>> >>>>> http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEn3LrswY8Zyro >>>>> ______________________________________________ >>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>> >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>> >>> >>> >> > > From cynapse at charter.net Thu Jul 2 02:49:29 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 01:49:29 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event In-Reply-To: References: <916197.44926.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46A9C40A9D8C467F8C68808CBF935CB1@den> <8dc0bd125d3f09b1a045d9fcc01c4f51.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> <0dcf96a28d1a7a3eb56a8afeee76e599.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> Message-ID: I discovered that this is already available for download on The Dark Underbelly of the internet. I'm not masochistic enough to watch the whole thing (on sampling around the acting, dialog and writing is fully as awful as the clips illustrate) but I did want to see how the whole issue was resolved. So, to save the rest of you the pain of having to watch one minute too much of this (okay, one minute IS too much of this) here is The Plot Resolution Wherein The Earth Is Destroyed (Or Is It?): http://www.sendspace.com/file/qz4a86 From sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 2 02:15:50 2009 From: sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net (Sterling K. Webb) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 01:15:50 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event References: <916197.44926.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46A9C40A9D8C467F8C68808CBF935CB1@den><8dc0bd125d3f09b1a045d9fcc01c4f51.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu><0dcf96a28d1a7a3eb56a8afeee76e599.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> Message-ID: <07EE65C58B174F439F12AF9E9D2B6760@ATARIENGINE2> That was truly horrible. People who say the 1950's was the age of bad SciFi movies are wrong. A few more as bad as this and we will be the winners of the "Bad" title. It isn't just bad, it's silly. Sterling K. Webb -------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darren Garrison" To: Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 1:49 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event >I discovered that this is already available for download on The Dark >Underbelly > of the internet. I'm not masochistic enough to watch the whole thing > (on > sampling around the acting, dialog and writing is fully as awful as > the clips > illustrate) but I did want to see how the whole issue was resolved. > So, to save > the rest of you the pain of having to watch one minute too much of > this (okay, > one minute IS too much of this) here is The Plot Resolution Wherein > The Earth Is > Destroyed (Or Is It?): > > http://www.sendspace.com/file/qz4a86 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com Thu Jul 2 06:24:37 2009 From: SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com (SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 06:24:37 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - July 2, 2009 Message-ID: http://www.rocksfromspace.org/July_2_2009.html __________________________ **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) From claudiu at tanaselia.ro Thu Jul 2 06:39:06 2009 From: claudiu at tanaselia.ro (Claudiu Tanaselia) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 13:39:06 +0300 Subject: [meteorite-list] New ASTER Global Satellite Digital Elevation Model Data Now Available Online In-Reply-To: <590770.5428.qm@web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <590770.5428.qm@web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Should we expect updated maps in World Wind and/or Google Maps? On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 10:43 PM, Paul wrote: > > Articles that describe this new global Digital Elevation Model (DEM) dataset are: > > 1. Most Complete Earth Map Published, BBC News, June 30, 2009 > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8126197.stm > > 2. Most Complete Topographic Map of Earth, GM International > > http://www.gim-international.com/news/id3889-Most_Complete_Topographic_Map_of_Earth.html > > "NASA and Japan released a new digital topographic map of Earth Monday > that covers more of our planet than ever before. The map was produced with > detailed measurements from NASA's Terra spacecraft. The new global digital > elevation model of Earth was created from nearly 1.3 million individual > stereo-pair images collected by the Japanese Advanced Spaceborne Thermal > Emission and Reflection Radiometer, or ASTER, instrument aboard Terra. > NASA and Japan's Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry (METI), > developed the data set. It is available online to users everywhere at no cost." > > Homepages for the ASTER Global DEM are: > > http://www.gdem.aster.ersdac.or.jp/ > > https://wist.echo.nasa.gov/~wist/api/imswelcome/ > > https://wist.echo.nasa.gov/wist-bin/api/ims.cgi?mode=MAINSRCH&JS=1 > > Yours, > > Paul V. Heinrich > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From waltbranch at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 2 06:57:30 2009 From: waltbranch at bellsouth.net (Walter Branch) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 06:57:30 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] High Levels of Formic Acid in Tagish Lake References: Message-ID: <7F58DB68F69C41AAA70649BA6A6C12EE@yourf78bf48ce2> Ahhh, I see. Thanks Carl, And just to keep this meteorite related, fellow list members, here is the movie The Monolith Monsters. I consider this to be the best meteorite-related SciFi movie from the 1950s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mbuSLODgb4 Be sure to watch al the parts. -Walter Branch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl 's" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 9:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] High Levels of Formic Acid in Tagish Lake Hi Walter and All, To see a young L. Nimoy, look at the 3 minute mark on youtube, THEM!(1954) Part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdqIiF8uj5M&feature=PlayList&p=F6FFC5E5C7E45151&index=5 Carl Sean wrote: >Check out entry #108 Them! (1954) (uncredited) .... Air Force Sergeant >Wait a minute. I pride myself on knowing Classic scifi/horror (if you a familier with Plan 9 From Outer Space you are in the club too) but I dont' remember Nimoy bing in Them. Which character was he? -Walter Branch _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu Thu Jul 2 07:11:51 2009 From: lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu (lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 04:11:51 -0700 (MST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event In-Reply-To: References: <916197.44926.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46A9C40A9D8C467F8C68808CBF935CB1@den> <8dc0bd125d3f09b1a045d9fcc01c4f51.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> <0dcf96a28d1a7a3eb56a8afeee76e599.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> Message-ID: <88efc59aeaf9f1016a9a196530a80614.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> Hi Sterling: Lots of things probably hit the Earth early on, including something that made the Moon. Given what the Moon looks like, just think about what the Earth looked like after the late heavy bombardment. In the back of my mind, there is always the idea of the Deccan Traps being the result of a big impact! Or not. Larry > Hi, Larry, List, > > The Melosh model says this is a "once-in-a-lifetime" > event, meaning once in 4 billion years. That however > would not include that first 500 or 600 million years, > the Hadean Era. > > At some point, this and bigger events must have > happened to the Earth. One has only to look at > the Moon and its visible record. For every basin > we see there, picture 18 just like it on the Earth. > > I suspect the rock-melting calculations of the model > are flawed at this scale. Punching though (or deep > enough into) the crust would not let anything be > buried. Instead, the release of pressure on the > high-pressure high-temperature interior would > cause it to melt, boil and explode outward. It > would expose the near-molten rock at 30 km down, > which is at a pressure of 150,000 pounds per square > inch, to the vacuum of deep space (for all practical > purposes, our atmosphere doesn't count). > > Gravity need not be taken into account in the > gas laws, but in a planetary body it is the source > of all interior pressure, right down to the 52,500,000 > pounds per square inch found at the center of the > Earth. I suspect that puncturing the thin but very > rigid skin of a planet would produce not merely basalt > flooding, but initially an immense "fire-fountain" type > of volcano that would blast material right out through > the atmosphere. What a sight that would be! I suspect > you'd want to watch from high orbit or maybe > the Moon, though. > > > Sterling K. Webb > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Sterling K. Webb" > Cc: ; ; "Meteorite List" > > Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 11:17 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event > > >> Hi Sterling: >> >> Sounds more reasonable, if destroying everything is reasonable. >> >> Any idea how often these occur? This is 5 times the diameter of either >> Sudbury or Vredefort and these are more than a billion years old. >> >> Maybe this is big enough to punch through the mantle and bury itself >> in >> magma. >> >> >> Larry >> >> >>> Hi, Larry, List, >>> >>> Yes, I am WRONG! However, my mistake was not the >>> one you hypothesized. The Wikipedia gives mass in >>> kilograms and I reduced the quantity by 1000 to >>> convert it to tons (10^18 kg = 10^15 metric tons), >>> correctly. >>> >>> No, it was density. I think in grams per cubic centimeter >>> when I think density. Water = 1.0, rock = 2.5, and >>> so forth. The training is strong; one thinks in specific >>> density. But the online Calculator wants kilograms >>> per cubic meter, where water = 1000, rock = 2500, and >>> so forth. >>> >>> So I calculated the impact of a 100 kilometer diameter >>> SNOWFLAKE ! One with a specific density of about >>> 0.022, a little fat for a snowflake, actually... So, if you >>> ever want to know what impact a really big snowflake >>> would have, you've got it now. >>> >>> The actual figures? The energy is 304,000,000,000 >>> megatons. The crater is 1240 km (770 miles) across >>> and would be 2500 meters deep before it fills with >>> melt. The impact would melt 2,000,000 CUBIC MILES >>> of the Earth's crust, and the melt zone extends to a >>> depth of 35 kilometers, which in some places would >>> take it down into the mantle itself, and it would >>> certainly rebound and produce basalt flooding of >>> incomprehensible magnitude, likely enough to flood >>> and re-surface an entire continent. The "crater" >>> would be a complex multi-ringed basin about the >>> same size as the Moon's Mare Imbrium! >>> >>> Big enough for you now? >>> >>> This is a continent destroyer. The shock of the impact, >>> would be a world-wide Richter Scale 12.3, strong enough >>> to kill all animal life. The wind at the antipodeal point to >>> the impact would be 385 mph. At just a quarter of the way >>> around the planet (10,000 km away), the winds would >>> be 835 mph. >>> >>> The fireball of the impact would be over 300 kilometers >>> in diameter (190 miles) and it would be visible for 5570 >>> kilometers (3500 miles). The thermal flux would be 53 >>> times brighter than the Sun and everything organic within >>> the line of sight would combust. This fireball would persist >>> for nearly 8 hours (7 hours 42 minutes) before cooling >>> enough to collapse. The shock wave there (3500 miles >>> away) would be over 2000 mph, or about Mach 3. >>> >>> Major extinction event, clearly. >>> >>> I can't speak to the roaches; no one knows what it takes >>> to wipe them out, if indeed it's even possible. Still, at >>> the worst, the sulfur-eating thermophiles in the deep >>> vents would survive just fine, fat and happy, and they >>> could start this evolution thing all over again, something >>> they've probably had to do before, as the universal inclusion >>> of the 16S rna ribosome in most living things attests to. >>> >>> A little better? >>> >>> >>> Sterling K. Webb >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: >>> To: "Sterling K. Webb" >>> Cc: ; "Meteorite List" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 9:03 PM >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV >>> event >>> >>> >>>> Hi Sterling: >>>> >>>> I will admit that, at first, I got the wrong asteroid (though now >>>> more >>>> interesting composition) and I am never one to say you are wrong, >>>> but... >>>> >>>> YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! >>>> >>>> Sorry, that felt good! >>>> >>>> If you go by Wikipedia, you lost 3 zeros 1x10^18 bit 1X10^15. It >>>> would >>>> be >>>> had to believe that a 100-km diameter object (give or take) would >>>> make >>>> a >>>> 40-km hole in the ground unless it was going real slow and hit a >>>> really >>>> hard surface. >>>> >>>> Somthing that big would probably make a hole 1000 km or so across >>>> (at >>>> least), which would make it a bad day even for the roaches. >>>> >>>> Oh, did I forget to mention: >>>> >>>> You are wrong! It is a rare day that I get to say that to you >>>> Sterling, >>>> sorry. >>>> >>>> Larry >>>> >>>>> Hi, List, >>>>> >>>>> To quantify that impact, I went and ran the numbers >>>>> through the online Impact Calculator that uses the >>>>> Jay Melosh model: >>>>> http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/ >>>>> >>>>> If 216 Kleopatra is 220 km x 100 km x 100 km, its >>>>> volume is 17,278,875.96 km^3 or a total of (take a >>>>> deep breath) 1,778,875,960,000,000 m^3. That's >>>>> 1.7 quadrillion cubic meters and its mass would be at >>>>> least 3.5 quadrillion metric tons. (Dogbone and Potato >>>>> asteroids have lots of voids and a high porosity.) >>>>> >>>>> No, wait! It's 114 Kassandra? Get your Apocalypses >>>>> straight, people! >>>>> >>>>> The volume of 114 Kassandra is less than Kleopatra: >>>>> 523,598,644,700,000 cubic meters. The mass of >>>>> 114 Kassandra, if rock, has to be at a minimum of >>>>> 1,500,000,000,000,000 tons, although some sources >>>>> say it's only 1,000,000,000,000,000. That big number >>>>> is a Quadrillion tons, in case you want to know. >>>>> >>>>> OK, it's Kassandra! Smaller, lighter. Really puny. >>>>> I gave it an intercept velocity of 47 km/s, a little >>>>> slow for an eccentric orbit from the Asteroid Zone, >>>>> and an incidence angle of 45 degrees. >>>>> >>>>> The energy of the collision is 1.20 x 10^24 Joules >>>>> or 268,000,000 MegaTons TNT. The Calculator says >>>>> "The average interval between impacts of this size >>>>> somewhere on Earth during the last 4 billion years >>>>> is 360,000,000 years." >>>>> >>>>> That energy is the equivalent of an explosion created >>>>> by detonating a nuclear arsenal 1800 times bigger >>>>> than the entire nuclear arsenals of all the nations of >>>>> the world -- at once. >>>>> >>>>> The final crater diameter is 39.5 km or 24.5 miles; >>>>> its final depth is 0.895 km or 0.556 miles. That seems >>>>> oddly small for something so big. Why is that? Well, >>>>> the Calculator says that the final crater is replaced >>>>> by a large, circular melt province. The volume of the >>>>> target melted or vaporized is 6410 cubic km or 1540 >>>>> cubic miles. The melt volume is 2.87 times the >>>>> crater volume >>>>> >>>>> If 114 Kassandra hit Los Angeles, you'd probably be >>>>> alright (for a while) if you were in New York City (or >>>>> Boston). You'd be alright, that is, if you can withstand >>>>> the shock wave which, at that distance, would have >>>>> a wind velocity of 140 mph, or a hurricane-level >>>>> Force Nine Gale on the Beaufort Scale. Where I live, >>>>> it'll be over 205 mph. >>>>> >>>>> The real problem, I suspect, is in the vaporization of >>>>> a substantial percentage of that "melt province." If >>>>> 10% of the rock vaporized, or 1.5 trillion tons of rock >>>>> vapor would be distributed very quickly through the >>>>> atmosphere at temperatures of more than 2000 >>>>> degrees F. That quantity of rock vapor amounts to >>>>> about 20,000 tons of rock vapor per square mile >>>>> of the Earth's surface. >>>>> >>>>> The Impact Calculator does not discuss the contribution >>>>> of the asteroid to the mass of rock vapor. I would suggest >>>>> that at least 1% of it would survive as "mere" rock vapor >>>>> (instead of plasma) -- that's an additional ten trillion tons, >>>>> raising the distribution to 110,000 tons of rock vapor per >>>>> square mile of the Earth's surface (about 190,000,000 >>>>> square miles). >>>>> >>>>> I suggest a very study, fireproofed umbrella would >>>>> be a good idea if you plan on going out... >>>>> >>>>> This is an impact at least 30 to 50 times worse than >>>>> the Chicxulub Impact which, it has been suggested, >>>>> burned most of the vegetation off the planet with its >>>>> rock vapor plume. 114 Kassandra's effect could only >>>>> be characterized as the "Krispy Kritter" impact. >>>>> >>>>> It sounds like a a lousy environment in which to >>>>> stage a mini-series. But... That's Entertainment! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sterling K. Webb >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> ------ Original Message ----- >>>>> From: >>>>> To: >>>>> Cc: >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 12:03 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV >>>>> event >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If Kleopatra were to hit the Earth (at least that is what I get out >>>>> of >>>>> the >>>>> main page), we would be in big trouble. For those of you who do not >>>>> remember, 216 Kleopatra, thanks to radar observations, looks very >>>>> much >>>>> like a big dog bone, 220 kilometers long and 100 kilometers across. >>>>> >>>>> Larry >>>>> >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Darren Garrison" >>>>> To: "Meteorite List" >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 11:38 AM >>>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEn3LrswY8Zyro >>>>>> ______________________________________________ >>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________________________ >>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > From lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu Thu Jul 2 07:17:12 2009 From: lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu (lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 04:17:12 -0700 (MST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event In-Reply-To: <07EE65C58B174F439F12AF9E9D2B6760@ATARIENGINE2> References: <916197.44926.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46A9C40A9D8C467F8C68808CBF935CB1@den><8dc0bd125d3f09b1a045d9fcc01c4f51.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu><0dcf96a28d1a7a3eb56a8afeee76e599.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> <07EE65C58B174F439F12AF9E9D2B6760@ATARIENGINE2> Message-ID: Hi Sterlng and Darren: Twilight Zone: Sterling's response to Darren came 30 minutes before Darren's email! I will be good and watch the movie. May be something to use in a class on bad science. On that note, did either of you make it through Impact!? Talk about lame endings. From the beginning you could tell who was wearing the red shirts (original Star Trek reference). Larry > That was truly horrible. People who say > the 1950's was the age of bad SciFi movies > are wrong. A few more as bad as this and > we will be the winners of the "Bad" title. > > It isn't just bad, it's silly. > > > Sterling K. Webb > -------------------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Darren Garrison" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 1:49 AM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event > > >>I discovered that this is already available for download on The Dark >>Underbelly >> of the internet. I'm not masochistic enough to watch the whole thing >> (on >> sampling around the acting, dialog and writing is fully as awful as >> the clips >> illustrate) but I did want to see how the whole issue was resolved. >> So, to save >> the rest of you the pain of having to watch one minute too much of >> this (okay, >> one minute IS too much of this) here is The Plot Resolution Wherein >> The Earth Is >> Destroyed (Or Is It?): >> >> http://www.sendspace.com/file/qz4a86 >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteorites at online.nl Thu Jul 2 08:15:56 2009 From: meteorites at online.nl (Jan Bartels) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 14:15:56 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] [AD] Gibeon 3,1 KG. Message-ID: <775628166C6140F197DCB77568B1E484@laptop> Dear Listoids, For those interested: We have a 3,1 kg. Gibeon for sale. Ask for pictures and/or make an offer. This one goes cheap!! Cheers, Jan Holland IMCA #9833 From carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 2 08:50:42 2009 From: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com (Carl 's) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 05:50:42 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event Message-ID: Hi Sterling and All, Too late. Here's a clip from a fairly recent movie from Japan. Check out the unforgettable battle around the asteroid belt. This from Godzilla vs Spacegodzilla (1994): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt7lS3FVGkA Sorry. Carl Sterling wrote: >That was truly horrible. People who say the 1950's was the age of bad SciFi movies are wrong. A few more as bad as this and we will be the winners of the "Bad" title. It isn't just bad, it's silly. _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Thu Jul 2 11:31:04 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 17:31:04 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?OT=3A_To_Andr=E9_Moutinho?= Message-ID: <001b01c9fb2a$1d421cc0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Sorry for abusing the list. (but I don't know to help myself otherwise). Yes Andr?, we received all your emails from April on. And I replied to all of them to all of your 3 email-addresses. Please check with your provider, what's going wrong. (The problem has to be on your side, we never had such problems before) The answer is: YES! Paypal-address is: stefan at meteoriten.com Many thanks, Martin From almitt at kconline.com Thu Jul 2 12:02:49 2009 From: almitt at kconline.com (al mitt) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 12:02:49 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event In-Reply-To: References: <916197.44926.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46A9C40A9D8C467F8C68808CBF935CB1@den> Message-ID: <46DC365CC0CC43E0A4AFEE143129EE5B@StarmanPC> Greetings, Seems to me if a big one came down and did break into mantle material that we might have a magma wave and simultaneous volcanic eruptions with some of the major volcanoes on Earth. Not that anyone would care at that point. --AL Mitterling ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sterling K. Webb" To: ; "Meteorite List" Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event > Hi, List, > > To quantify that impact, I went and ran the numbers > through the online Impact Calculator that uses the > Jay Melosh model: > http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/ > > If 216 Kleopatra is 220 km x 100 km x 100 km, its > volume is 17,278,875.96 km^3 or a total of (take a > deep breath) 1,778,875,960,000,000 m^3. That's > 1.7 quadrillion cubic meters and its mass would be at > least 3.5 quadrillion metric tons. (Dogbone and Potato > asteroids have lots of voids and a high porosity.) > > No, wait! It's 114 Kassandra? Get your Apocalypses > straight, people! > > The volume of 114 Kassandra is less than Kleopatra: > 523,598,644,700,000 cubic meters. The mass of > 114 Kassandra, if rock, has to be at a minimum of > 1,500,000,000,000,000 tons, although some sources > say it's only 1,000,000,000,000,000. That big number > is a Quadrillion tons, in case you want to know. > > OK, it's Kassandra! Smaller, lighter. Really puny. > I gave it an intercept velocity of 47 km/s, a little > slow for an eccentric orbit from the Asteroid Zone, > and an incidence angle of 45 degrees. > > The energy of the collision is 1.20 x 10^24 Joules > or 268,000,000 MegaTons TNT. The Calculator says > "The average interval between impacts of this size > somewhere on Earth during the last 4 billion years > is 360,000,000 years." > > That energy is the equivalent of an explosion created > by detonating a nuclear arsenal 1800 times bigger > than the entire nuclear arsenals of all the nations of > the world -- at once. > > The final crater diameter is 39.5 km or 24.5 miles; > its final depth is 0.895 km or 0.556 miles. That seems > oddly small for something so big. Why is that? Well, > the Calculator says that the final crater is replaced > by a large, circular melt province. The volume of the > target melted or vaporized is 6410 cubic km or 1540 > cubic miles. The melt volume is 2.87 times the > crater volume > > If 114 Kassandra hit Los Angeles, you'd probably be > alright (for a while) if you were in New York City (or > Boston). You'd be alright, that is, if you can withstand > the shock wave which, at that distance, would have > a wind velocity of 140 mph, or a hurricane-level > Force Nine Gale on the Beaufort Scale. Where I live, > it'll be over 205 mph. > > The real problem, I suspect, is in the vaporization of > a substantial percentage of that "melt province." If > 10% of the rock vaporized, or 1.5 trillion tons of rock > vapor would be distributed very quickly through the > atmosphere at temperatures of more than 2000 > degrees F. That quantity of rock vapor amounts to > about 20,000 tons of rock vapor per square mile > of the Earth's surface. > > The Impact Calculator does not discuss the contribution > of the asteroid to the mass of rock vapor. I would suggest > that at least 1% of it would survive as "mere" rock vapor > (instead of plasma) -- that's an additional ten trillion tons, > raising the distribution to 110,000 tons of rock vapor per > square mile of the Earth's surface (about 190,000,000 > square miles). > > I suggest a very study, fireproofed umbrella would > be a good idea if you plan on going out... > > This is an impact at least 30 to 50 times worse than > the Chicxulub Impact which, it has been suggested, > burned most of the vegetation off the planet with its > rock vapor plume. 114 Kassandra's effect could only > be characterized as the "Krispy Kritter" impact. > > It sounds like a a lousy environment in which to > stage a mini-series. But... That's Entertainment! From gle at verizon.net Thu Jul 2 12:13:07 2009 From: gle at verizon.net (Grant Elliott) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:13:07 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] High Levels of Formic Acid in Tagish Lake References: <248D2FA94DB44E398E5662F3EF828CED@ASUS> Message-ID: <25FF14B589D24C73ABB817C45953329F@Grant> Sterling, I am old enough to have seen this film, first run, at my local movie house. To say the least, at that age, I was scared "spitless". It was great and memorable fun. Thanks for the Memories, Grant Elliott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sterling K. Webb" To: "Matthias B?rmann" ; "Jerry Flaherty" ; ; Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 6:04 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] High Levels of Formic Acid in Tagish Lake For all the ant "lovers," I recommend the 1954 movie "THEM!" starring the venerable British actor Edmond Gwenn (b. 1877, first movie 1916) with early-career performances by James Whitmore, James Arness, Fess Parker and a host of character actors. And of course, hordes of very, very large ants. Sterling K. Webb From cynapse at charter.net Thu Jul 2 13:18:18 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:18:18 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event In-Reply-To: References: <8dc0bd125d3f09b1a045d9fcc01c4f51.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu><0dcf96a28d1a7a3eb56a8afeee76e599.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> <07EE65C58B174F439F12AF9E9D2B6760@ATARIENGINE2> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Jul 2009 04:17:12 -0700 (MST), you wrote: >Twilight Zone: Sterling's response to Darren came 30 minutes before >Darren's email! > Looks like he's finally getting the bugs worked out of his time machine! We will know it is fully functional when we can no longer remember our crushing defeat at Midway and the subsequent loss of the territories of Alaska and Hawaii. >On that note, did either of you make it through Impact!? Talk about lame >endings. From the beginning you could tell who was wearing the red shirts No, I never attempted to watch that. I may need to check out the ending, though. >(original Star Trek reference). You insult my Geek Cred, suah! From geoking at notkin.net Thu Jul 2 13:09:30 2009 From: geoking at notkin.net (Notkin) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 10:09:30 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Feature Article in Tucson's "Desert Leaf" Message-ID: <3F5E2E73-E32E-4582-88CE-2FE2A2F1F792@notkin.net> Dear LIstees: The summer issue of Tucson's "Desert Leaf" magazine arrived in town yesterday. The cover story is a feature article on meteorite hunting titled: "Chasing What Falls from the Sky." The article is based on a series of interviews I did with Tucson author Susan Dawson-Cook, and features photos by Leigh Anne DelRay, Caroline Palmer, and myself. "Desert Leaf" is very attractive, ultra-large format publication (think "Life" magazine) measuring 11 x 15 inches, so the photos are big and striking. The layout is excellent -- one of the better meteorite features I've seen in some time. For those of you who might like a copy for your meteorite library, I have a number of extras, and would be happy to mail them to anyone who is interested. If you'd like one, please PayPal me $3.00 domestic, $5.00 Canada, or $9.00 for overseas international Air Mail to cover our mailing costs. Sorry about the high mailing costs, but it's a big magazine and has to go in an oversize padded envelope. My PayPal address is: info at aerolite.org PLEASE do me a favor and include you shipping address in the message area with your payment. Addresses do not always automatically come through with PayPal payments. Also, please try clicking that "PERSONAL" tab when sending your payment, as recommended by one of our colleagues last week, and then maybe we won't have to pay fees on these. After all, I'm not selling a product or service, so that counts are personal, right? : ) If you would like to just read an online version of the article, you can find it here, but their PDF viewer interface is a little clunky: http://npaper-wehaa.com/desert-leaf#vw-1;dblpg -- and -- http://npaper-wehaa.com/desert-leaf#page-32 http://npaper-wehaa.com/desert-leaf#page-34 You scientists will notice a couple of small errors in the piece, but overall, I found it to be well written and enjoyable. Hope you agree. Regards to all, Geoff N. ***************** www.aerolite.org www.meteoritemen.com www.meteoriteblog.org From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Thu Jul 2 14:46:38 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 11:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Phoenix Mission Research Points to Martian Climate Cycles Message-ID: <200907021846.n62Ikc79022017@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> FROM: Johnny Cruz (520-621-1879; cruzj at email.arizona.edu) Phoenix Mission Research Points to Martian Climate Cycles July 2, 2009 EDITOR'S NOTE: Peter Smith will be available to speak with local reporters today at 2 p.m. at the Phoenix Mission Science Operations Center, 1415 N. Sixth Ave., Tucson. Four papers in the journal Science this week offer new details about the history of water on Mars, gleaned from the 2008 NASA Phoenix Mars Mission that was operated from The University of Arizona. Peter H. Smith, a scientist with the UA Lunar and Planetary Laboratory and the mission's principal investigator, is the first author of "H2O at the Phoenix Landing Site" in Science. There are 35 co-authors from six countries on the paper. Smith and his group of scientists and students used the lander to investigate the role of water and ice on Mars, as well as the changing weather patterns. The popular mission launched in early August 2007. In May, 2008, early 10 months later, its landing trajectory was spectacularly captured by the HiRISE camera onboard the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter. For the next five months, the UA Science Operations Center clattered with researchers gearing themselves to follow the Martian diurnal phases, which are about 40 minutes longer than day and night on Earth and enough to throw off human sleep schedules in short order. The landing site was an ejecta field. A comet or asteroid that crashed into the surface melted the ice below creating a sheet of dust and water that flowed across a shallow valley. Smith said that event also covered any large rocks that could have interfered with the ability of the Phoenix to safely land. Smith and his group found patterns in the ground near the lander, multi-sided shapes about three to ten meters in size. The shapes are created when the surface contracts and the ice cracks. Sand fills in the cracks before the ice expands and buckles the surface to make the distinctive patterns. Smith used the Phoenix lander's robotic arm to dig a series of trenches to expose subsurface ice and found that the ice in the centers of the polygons was fairly shallow, only a couple of inches deep. "But in the troughs in between, we went down as much as eight inches and never did find the ice underneath. We weren't able to dig further down because the robot arm was hitting against the side of the lander. It was not known ahead of time that there would be changes in the depth of the ice," he said. "We wanted to know the origin of the ice," Smith said. "It could have been the remnant of a larger polar ice cap that shrank; could have been a frozen ocean; could have been a snowfall frozen into the ground," he said. "The most likely theory is that water vapor from the atmosphere slowly diffused into the surface and froze at the level where the temperature matches the frost point. We expected that was probably the source of the ice, but some of what we found was surprising." One of the surprises was finding perchlorate. "Perchlorate was not predicted at this landing site and nobody had it on their list of likely chemicals. There was a very high concentration of it, higher than the salts we might have expected like sodium chloride (table salt). As an oxidized state of chlorine, it has interesting properties including a strong affinity for water. On Earth, microbes use it as a chemical energy source." During the mission, Mars moved from summer to winter, giving Smith and others an unprecedented look at the planet's changing weather patterns, including frost and snow. "Frost was predicted, but snowfall was quite a welcome surprise," Smith said. "In summer there was a lot of dust in the atmosphere. As we neared fall, the dust cleared, and all of a sudden there were water ice clouds forming at about 4 km (2.5 mi.) above the surface. We could see the clouds scud by, moving through the camera field, and once we saw snow coming out of the bottom of a cloud. It was very exciting to watch the daily weather changes. No one has ever had this experience." Smith said there are clues that thin films of water modified the soil chemistry. Unlike Earth, Mars has an unstable spin axis, which currently is tilted at about 25 degrees from vertical. Perhaps five millions years ago, he said, it was tilted much more, which would have exposed the north pole to larger amounts of sunlight creating warmer, wetter conditions during summer. "During that previous climate, you would expect huge increase in the amounts of water vapor coming off the polar cap. If the cap goes unstable, you can have as much as three hundred times as much water in the atmosphere," Smith said. It would have been enough for snowdrifts. On hot summer days, melting snow could have formed thin films of water. Not enough for a lake or a river, but he said this could have been a time when damp soil provided a growth period for any microbes that learned to survive those long periods of dryness. "Who knows? Evolution is a powerful force. If life ever started on Mars, there are niches where still it could survive." CONTACTS: Peter Smith (520-621-2725; psmith at lpl.arizona.edu) Bill Boynton (520-621-6941; wboynton at lpl.arizona.edu) From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Thu Jul 2 14:49:36 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 11:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Clues to Origin of Life Revealed in Tagish Lake Meteorite Message-ID: <200907021849.n62Inaev023488@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/07/02/bc-tagish-lake-meteorite-formic-acid.html Clues to origin of life revealed in Tagish Lake meteorite CBC News (Canada) July 2, 2009 New research into a meteorite that crashed into northern British Columbia nine years ago is revealing startling clues that could help unravel the origins of life on earth. Parts of the Tagish Lake meteorite were found on a frozen lake near the Yukon border in January, 2000, after it fell to earth in a spectacular blue-green fireball that was seen for hundreds of kilometres. Parts of the meteorite were recovered still frozen after an extensive search by researchers. Since then, scientists have repeatedly tried to unlock the clues about the origins of life that the rare 4.5 billion-year-old carbon- and water-rich meteorite has long been suspected to contain. Now, a team at the University of Alberta has found some important material nestled inside the rock. It's formic acid ??? the key ingredient in bee stings, ant venom and stinging nettles, which may hold a key to unlocking the mystery of how life on earth began. U of A scientist Chris Herd says finding the molecule may have been instrumental in kick-starting life on earth, making the meteorite the most important rock ever found on earth. "Four billion years ago, when the earth had kind of cooled off from its initial hot state, and there was liquid water on the surface, we may have had an influx of meteorites like Tagish Lake [that] delivered the right mix of molecules to the earth's surface," he said. How exactly that mix might have turned into actual life is still a mystery, but Herd said the findings of formic acid on the meteorite may provide important clues. "It's a type of molecule known as a carboxylic acid. So it's sort of like the shortest, smallest molecule in that group. The longer molecules in this same group are actually what life uses in building cell walls." In 2001, U.S. exobiologist Sandra Pizzarello, who was studying some of the fragments from the Tagish meteorite at Arizona State University, said they contained almost no amino acids but did contain high concentrations of hydrocarbon molecules, along with a type of clay that forms in the presence of water. In 2006, Mike Zolensky, a cosmic mineralogist at the NASA Space Centre in Texas, said tiny bubbles in the rock were organic globules where the universe's earliest life forms could have been able to live. From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Thu Jul 2 15:00:47 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 12:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] MRO HiRISE Images - July 1, 2009 Message-ID: <200907021900.n62J0l08025024@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> MARS RECONNAISSANCE ORBITER HIRISE IMAGES July 1, 2009 o Martian Zambonis? http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_013329_1070 o Gullies on Southwest Slope of Ring Trough in Noachis Terra http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_012912_1320 o Layering and Faulting in Melas Chasma Layered Deposits http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_012572_1685 o Light and Intermediate Toned Material Near Morava Valles http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_012570_1670 o Light Toned Rugged Intercrater Area in Viking Images 637A36 and 635A94 http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_012562_1545 o Faulting in South Polar Layered Deposits (ESP_012538_1070) http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_012538_1070 All of the HiRISE images are archived here: http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ Information about the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter is online at http://www.nasa.gov/mro. The mission is managed by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a division of the California Institute of Technology, for the NASA Science Mission Directorate, Washington, D.C. Lockheed Martin Space Systems, of Denver, is the prime contractor and built the spacecraft. HiRISE is operated by the University of Arizona. Ball Aerospace and Technologies Corp., of Boulder, Colo., built the HiRISE instrument. From epgrondine at yahoo.com Thu Jul 2 15:21:26 2009 From: epgrondine at yahoo.com (E.P. Grondine) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 12:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Recent smaller impacts Message-ID: <937756.33328.qm@web36901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Paul - Are any of these events you mentioned timed to cometary debris streams? I suppose that some folks we know or know of have more definitive information on these events which they can not make public right now. My seat of the pants estimate is that the number dead in an accidental India-Pakistan nuclear exchange given in the wikipedia article is off by at least one order of magnitude, maybe two, or perhaps three. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas (a damned fine book if I do say so myself) PS 1 - Any news about when the NASA IG's report on Griffin's contempt of the Congress on the George Brown Jr Amendment will be in? PS 2 - Sterling, have you worked the numbers for the Kiscoty, Alberta crater? From cynapse at charter.net Thu Jul 2 17:26:02 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:26:02 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] A futura awful meteorite related movie In-Reply-To: <46DC365CC0CC43E0A4AFEE143129EE5B@StarmanPC> References: <916197.44926.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46A9C40A9D8C467F8C68808CBF935CB1@den> <46DC365CC0CC43E0A4AFEE143129EE5B@StarmanPC> Message-ID: <3a9q459rtmn23tjrf75n3d0rq50j6ogon4@4ax.com> Okay, maybe I'm jumping the gun, and this will be the next Oscar-winning, compelling epic. But I'm thinking not. http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/07/asteroids-movie/ http://360.kombo.com/article.php?artid=16753 http://www.goriya.com/flash/asteroids/asteroids.shtml From sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 2 16:47:54 2009 From: sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net (Sterling K. Webb) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 15:47:54 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event References: <916197.44926.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46A9C40A9D8C467F8C68808CBF935CB1@den> <8dc0bd125d3f09b1a045d9fcc01c4f51.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> <0dcf96a28d1a7a3eb56a8afeee76e599.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> <88efc59aeaf9f1016a9a196530a80614.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> Message-ID: Hi, Larry, List, The Deccan Traps, so it seems, are now believed to have started and stopped and started over again, in irregular cycles, producing multiple layers. The layers date from 62 to 68 million years ago, with the peak eruptions at 66 million years ago and lasting for as little as 30,000 years. In the strata between outbursts, there are fossilized dinosaur nests and eggs, making the Traps an unlikely cause of their extinction anywhere but locally. The shock waves of Chicxulub focused through the planet have been modeled in the Sandia supercomputers. They suggest that impacts can start basalt flooding, or make small-scale volcanic flows into much bigger ones. The positions of the impact and the Deccan 63 million years ago are 120 degrees apart, which suggests an impact angle of 30 degrees, which -- coincidentally -- is the same angle derived from studies of the remnant crater in the Yucatan. The Siberian Traps are the world's largest. The eruptions lasted about 1,000,000 years. They span the Permian-Triassic boundary, just as the Deccan Traps span the K-T. Originally the Siberian Traps covered 7,000,000 square km, or 5% of the Earth's land surface. They span 25 degrees of latitude and 60 degrees of longitude. They were, at the time of their formation antipodal to Antarctica, where suggestions of a very large crater in Wilkes Land have been made. My guess is that focused impact shock makes an ordinary large volcanic episode that happens to be occurring in the right place become much more productive of lava and turn into a basalt flood. As major flood-basalt episodes correlate very well with extinctions and the more recent extinctions correlate very well with extinctions, it's asking a lot of coincidence for them to be accidental companions. There are no giant craters known to not have an extinction hanging around, and there are no giant basalt floods known to not have an extinction hanging around them as well, although there are extinctions without evidence of one or the other. (I'm working on the Venn diagram...) Flood basalts are detectable well back into the Archean Era; extinctions back to the Cambrian; but impact craters' survival for more than a few hundred million years is a matter of chance. Sudbury and Vredefort were emplaced in ancient cratons; that insured their survival. But craters are not related to the terrain in any way, being extraterrestrially random. And ya can't get more random than that. One can always find the kilometer-thick strata of flood basalts. One can find the fossil shifts of the last 550-700 million years. To demand that clear-cut craters carry the sole burden of proof, even in the most ancient cases, is in essence a gimmick to shift the argument to evidence known to be largely absent. I'm still working on that Venn diagram... Sterling K. Webb ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Sterling K. Webb" Cc: ; ; "Meteorite List" Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 6:11 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event > Hi Sterling: > > Lots of things probably hit the Earth early on, including something > that > made the Moon. Given what the Moon looks like, just think about what > the > Earth looked like after the late heavy bombardment. > > In the back of my mind, there is always the idea of the Deccan Traps > being > the result of a big impact! Or not. > > Larry > >> Hi, Larry, List, >> >> The Melosh model says this is a "once-in-a-lifetime" >> event, meaning once in 4 billion years. That however >> would not include that first 500 or 600 million years, >> the Hadean Era. >> >> At some point, this and bigger events must have >> happened to the Earth. One has only to look at >> the Moon and its visible record. For every basin >> we see there, picture 18 just like it on the Earth. >> >> I suspect the rock-melting calculations of the model >> are flawed at this scale. Punching though (or deep >> enough into) the crust would not let anything be >> buried. Instead, the release of pressure on the >> high-pressure high-temperature interior would >> cause it to melt, boil and explode outward. It >> would expose the near-molten rock at 30 km down, >> which is at a pressure of 150,000 pounds per square >> inch, to the vacuum of deep space (for all practical >> purposes, our atmosphere doesn't count). >> >> Gravity need not be taken into account in the >> gas laws, but in a planetary body it is the source >> of all interior pressure, right down to the 52,500,000 >> pounds per square inch found at the center of the >> Earth. I suspect that puncturing the thin but very >> rigid skin of a planet would produce not merely basalt >> flooding, but initially an immense "fire-fountain" type >> of volcano that would blast material right out through >> the atmosphere. What a sight that would be! I suspect >> you'd want to watch from high orbit or maybe >> the Moon, though. >> >> >> Sterling K. Webb >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: "Sterling K. Webb" >> Cc: ; ; "Meteorite >> List" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 11:17 PM >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV >> event >> >> >>> Hi Sterling: >>> >>> Sounds more reasonable, if destroying everything is reasonable. >>> >>> Any idea how often these occur? This is 5 times the diameter of >>> either >>> Sudbury or Vredefort and these are more than a billion years old. >>> >>> Maybe this is big enough to punch through the mantle and bury itself >>> in >>> magma. >>> >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> >>>> Hi, Larry, List, >>>> >>>> Yes, I am WRONG! However, my mistake was not the >>>> one you hypothesized. The Wikipedia gives mass in >>>> kilograms and I reduced the quantity by 1000 to >>>> convert it to tons (10^18 kg = 10^15 metric tons), >>>> correctly. >>>> >>>> No, it was density. I think in grams per cubic centimeter >>>> when I think density. Water = 1.0, rock = 2.5, and >>>> so forth. The training is strong; one thinks in specific >>>> density. But the online Calculator wants kilograms >>>> per cubic meter, where water = 1000, rock = 2500, and >>>> so forth. >>>> >>>> So I calculated the impact of a 100 kilometer diameter >>>> SNOWFLAKE ! One with a specific density of about >>>> 0.022, a little fat for a snowflake, actually... So, if you >>>> ever want to know what impact a really big snowflake >>>> would have, you've got it now. >>>> >>>> The actual figures? The energy is 304,000,000,000 >>>> megatons. The crater is 1240 km (770 miles) across >>>> and would be 2500 meters deep before it fills with >>>> melt. The impact would melt 2,000,000 CUBIC MILES >>>> of the Earth's crust, and the melt zone extends to a >>>> depth of 35 kilometers, which in some places would >>>> take it down into the mantle itself, and it would >>>> certainly rebound and produce basalt flooding of >>>> incomprehensible magnitude, likely enough to flood >>>> and re-surface an entire continent. The "crater" >>>> would be a complex multi-ringed basin about the >>>> same size as the Moon's Mare Imbrium! >>>> >>>> Big enough for you now? >>>> >>>> This is a continent destroyer. The shock of the impact, >>>> would be a world-wide Richter Scale 12.3, strong enough >>>> to kill all animal life. The wind at the antipodeal point to >>>> the impact would be 385 mph. At just a quarter of the way >>>> around the planet (10,000 km away), the winds would >>>> be 835 mph. >>>> >>>> The fireball of the impact would be over 300 kilometers >>>> in diameter (190 miles) and it would be visible for 5570 >>>> kilometers (3500 miles). The thermal flux would be 53 >>>> times brighter than the Sun and everything organic within >>>> the line of sight would combust. This fireball would persist >>>> for nearly 8 hours (7 hours 42 minutes) before cooling >>>> enough to collapse. The shock wave there (3500 miles >>>> away) would be over 2000 mph, or about Mach 3. >>>> >>>> Major extinction event, clearly. >>>> >>>> I can't speak to the roaches; no one knows what it takes >>>> to wipe them out, if indeed it's even possible. Still, at >>>> the worst, the sulfur-eating thermophiles in the deep >>>> vents would survive just fine, fat and happy, and they >>>> could start this evolution thing all over again, something >>>> they've probably had to do before, as the universal inclusion >>>> of the 16S rna ribosome in most living things attests to. >>>> >>>> A little better? >>>> >>>> >>>> Sterling K. Webb >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: >>>> To: "Sterling K. Webb" >>>> Cc: ; "Meteorite List" >>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 9:03 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV >>>> event >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Sterling: >>>>> >>>>> I will admit that, at first, I got the wrong asteroid (though now >>>>> more >>>>> interesting composition) and I am never one to say you are wrong, >>>>> but... >>>>> >>>>> YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, that felt good! >>>>> >>>>> If you go by Wikipedia, you lost 3 zeros 1x10^18 bit 1X10^15. It >>>>> would >>>>> be >>>>> had to believe that a 100-km diameter object (give or take) would >>>>> make >>>>> a >>>>> 40-km hole in the ground unless it was going real slow and hit a >>>>> really >>>>> hard surface. >>>>> >>>>> Somthing that big would probably make a hole 1000 km or so across >>>>> (at >>>>> least), which would make it a bad day even for the roaches. >>>>> >>>>> Oh, did I forget to mention: >>>>> >>>>> You are wrong! It is a rare day that I get to say that to you >>>>> Sterling, >>>>> sorry. >>>>> >>>>> Larry >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, List, >>>>>> >>>>>> To quantify that impact, I went and ran the numbers >>>>>> through the online Impact Calculator that uses the >>>>>> Jay Melosh model: >>>>>> http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/ >>>>>> >>>>>> If 216 Kleopatra is 220 km x 100 km x 100 km, its >>>>>> volume is 17,278,875.96 km^3 or a total of (take a >>>>>> deep breath) 1,778,875,960,000,000 m^3. That's >>>>>> 1.7 quadrillion cubic meters and its mass would be at >>>>>> least 3.5 quadrillion metric tons. (Dogbone and Potato >>>>>> asteroids have lots of voids and a high porosity.) >>>>>> >>>>>> No, wait! It's 114 Kassandra? Get your Apocalypses >>>>>> straight, people! >>>>>> >>>>>> The volume of 114 Kassandra is less than Kleopatra: >>>>>> 523,598,644,700,000 cubic meters. The mass of >>>>>> 114 Kassandra, if rock, has to be at a minimum of >>>>>> 1,500,000,000,000,000 tons, although some sources >>>>>> say it's only 1,000,000,000,000,000. That big number >>>>>> is a Quadrillion tons, in case you want to know. >>>>>> >>>>>> OK, it's Kassandra! Smaller, lighter. Really puny. >>>>>> I gave it an intercept velocity of 47 km/s, a little >>>>>> slow for an eccentric orbit from the Asteroid Zone, >>>>>> and an incidence angle of 45 degrees. >>>>>> >>>>>> The energy of the collision is 1.20 x 10^24 Joules >>>>>> or 268,000,000 MegaTons TNT. The Calculator says >>>>>> "The average interval between impacts of this size >>>>>> somewhere on Earth during the last 4 billion years >>>>>> is 360,000,000 years." >>>>>> >>>>>> That energy is the equivalent of an explosion created >>>>>> by detonating a nuclear arsenal 1800 times bigger >>>>>> than the entire nuclear arsenals of all the nations of >>>>>> the world -- at once. >>>>>> >>>>>> The final crater diameter is 39.5 km or 24.5 miles; >>>>>> its final depth is 0.895 km or 0.556 miles. That seems >>>>>> oddly small for something so big. Why is that? Well, >>>>>> the Calculator says that the final crater is replaced >>>>>> by a large, circular melt province. The volume of the >>>>>> target melted or vaporized is 6410 cubic km or 1540 >>>>>> cubic miles. The melt volume is 2.87 times the >>>>>> crater volume >>>>>> >>>>>> If 114 Kassandra hit Los Angeles, you'd probably be >>>>>> alright (for a while) if you were in New York City (or >>>>>> Boston). You'd be alright, that is, if you can withstand >>>>>> the shock wave which, at that distance, would have >>>>>> a wind velocity of 140 mph, or a hurricane-level >>>>>> Force Nine Gale on the Beaufort Scale. Where I live, >>>>>> it'll be over 205 mph. >>>>>> >>>>>> The real problem, I suspect, is in the vaporization of >>>>>> a substantial percentage of that "melt province." If >>>>>> 10% of the rock vaporized, or 1.5 trillion tons of rock >>>>>> vapor would be distributed very quickly through the >>>>>> atmosphere at temperatures of more than 2000 >>>>>> degrees F. That quantity of rock vapor amounts to >>>>>> about 20,000 tons of rock vapor per square mile >>>>>> of the Earth's surface. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Impact Calculator does not discuss the contribution >>>>>> of the asteroid to the mass of rock vapor. I would suggest >>>>>> that at least 1% of it would survive as "mere" rock vapor >>>>>> (instead of plasma) -- that's an additional ten trillion tons, >>>>>> raising the distribution to 110,000 tons of rock vapor per >>>>>> square mile of the Earth's surface (about 190,000,000 >>>>>> square miles). >>>>>> >>>>>> I suggest a very study, fireproofed umbrella would >>>>>> be a good idea if you plan on going out... >>>>>> >>>>>> This is an impact at least 30 to 50 times worse than >>>>>> the Chicxulub Impact which, it has been suggested, >>>>>> burned most of the vegetation off the planet with its >>>>>> rock vapor plume. 114 Kassandra's effect could only >>>>>> be characterized as the "Krispy Kritter" impact. >>>>>> >>>>>> It sounds like a a lousy environment in which to >>>>>> stage a mini-series. But... That's Entertainment! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sterling K. Webb >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> ------ Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: >>>>>> To: >>>>>> Cc: >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 12:03 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV >>>>>> event >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If Kleopatra were to hit the Earth (at least that is what I get >>>>>> out >>>>>> of >>>>>> the >>>>>> main page), we would be in big trouble. For those of you who do >>>>>> not >>>>>> remember, 216 Kleopatra, thanks to radar observations, looks very >>>>>> much >>>>>> like a big dog bone, 220 kilometers long and 100 kilometers >>>>>> across. >>>>>> >>>>>> Larry >>>>>> >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Darren Garrison" >>>>>> To: "Meteorite List" >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 11:38 AM >>>>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV >>>>>> event >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEn3LrswY8Zyro >>>>>>> ______________________________________________ >>>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>>>> >>>>>> ______________________________________________ >>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > > From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Thu Jul 2 19:34:27 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 16:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - 4th of July sale with great savings! Message-ID: <621954.86346.qm@web46404.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi to all, hope everyone is having a good day! I have marked down several items listed on ebay to VERY good prices for the 4th of July. You will have a hard time finding better buys on these meteorites and the sale is good until July 6th when I will take the prices back up. You can view my meteorites listed on ebay here: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZwanderingstarmeteoritesQQhtZ-1 The samples discounted will have "4th of July sale" in the listings. Off ebay sales of these (or any ebay listings), take 5% off the listed ebay price and free shipping. Also, a one time offer, good until July 5th... 5.9g NWA 4734 Lunar - off ebay price - for $5300! That said, hope everyone has a safe 4th of july weekend! Greg C. From grf2 at verizon.net Thu Jul 2 21:30:49 2009 From: grf2 at verizon.net (Jerry Flaherty) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:30:49 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event References: <916197.44926.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46A9C40A9D8C467F8C68808CBF935CB1@den> <8dc0bd125d3f09b1a045d9fcc01c4f51.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> <0dcf96a28d1a7a3eb56a8afeee76e599.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> <88efc59aeaf9f1016a9a196530a80614.squirrel@webmail.lpl.arizona.edu> Message-ID: Sterling, So much effort on your part to "solidify", what to me is tantamount to an obvious causal relationship between these cotemporaneous events. Not that all, isn't fair game in the name of "Science". Platonic a-priori reasoning is not well received in a "fundamentalist" rationalistic environment. But the shadows on the wall lead us to corroborate even what seems obvious. All of the previous threads imagining the results of a series of nightmarish events in our planet's history lay the groundwork for postulating such and such. So well done, Sterling and let's hope the 21st century doesn't include a pivotal conclusion to gain insight into the Grand Design in which we find ourselves. Jerry -------------------------------------------------- From: "Sterling K. Webb" Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:47 PM To: Cc: "Meteorite List" Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event > Hi, Larry, List, > > The Deccan Traps, so it seems, are now believed > to have started and stopped and started over again, > in irregular cycles, producing multiple layers. The > layers date from 62 to 68 million years ago, with > the peak eruptions at 66 million years ago and > lasting for as little as 30,000 years. In the strata > between outbursts, there are fossilized dinosaur > nests and eggs, making the Traps an unlikely cause > of their extinction anywhere but locally. > > The shock waves of Chicxulub focused through > the planet have been modeled in the Sandia > supercomputers. They suggest that impacts can > start basalt flooding, or make small-scale volcanic > flows into much bigger ones. The positions of the > impact and the Deccan 63 million years ago are > 120 degrees apart, which suggests an impact > angle of 30 degrees, which -- coincidentally -- > is the same angle derived from studies of the > remnant crater in the Yucatan. > > The Siberian Traps are the world's largest. The > eruptions lasted about 1,000,000 years. They span > the Permian-Triassic boundary, just as the Deccan > Traps span the K-T. Originally the Siberian Traps > covered 7,000,000 square km, or 5% of the Earth's > land surface. They span 25 degrees of latitude and > 60 degrees of longitude. They were, at the time of > their formation antipodal to Antarctica, where > suggestions of a very large crater in Wilkes Land > have been made. > > My guess is that focused impact shock makes > an ordinary large volcanic episode that happens > to be occurring in the right place become much > more productive of lava and turn into a basalt > flood. As major flood-basalt episodes correlate > very well with extinctions and the more recent > extinctions correlate very well with extinctions, > it's asking a lot of coincidence for them to be > accidental companions. There are no giant craters > known to not have an extinction hanging around, > and there are no giant basalt floods known to not > have an extinction hanging around them as well, > although there are extinctions without evidence > of one or the other. (I'm working on the Venn > diagram...) > > Flood basalts are detectable well back into the > Archean Era; extinctions back to the Cambrian; > but impact craters' survival for more than a few > hundred million years is a matter of chance. > Sudbury and Vredefort were emplaced in ancient > cratons; that insured their survival. But craters > are not related to the terrain in any way, being > extraterrestrially random. And ya can't get more > random than that. > > One can always find the kilometer-thick strata > of flood basalts. One can find the fossil shifts of > the last 550-700 million years. To demand that > clear-cut craters carry the sole burden of proof, > even in the most ancient cases, is in essence a > gimmick to shift the argument to evidence known > to be largely absent. > > I'm still working on that Venn diagram... > > > > Sterling K. Webb > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Sterling K. Webb" > Cc: ; ; "Meteorite List" > > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 6:11 AM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event > > >> Hi Sterling: >> >> Lots of things probably hit the Earth early on, including something that >> made the Moon. Given what the Moon looks like, just think about what the >> Earth looked like after the late heavy bombardment. >> >> In the back of my mind, there is always the idea of the Deccan Traps >> being >> the result of a big impact! Or not. >> >> Larry >> >>> Hi, Larry, List, >>> >>> The Melosh model says this is a "once-in-a-lifetime" >>> event, meaning once in 4 billion years. That however >>> would not include that first 500 or 600 million years, >>> the Hadean Era. >>> >>> At some point, this and bigger events must have >>> happened to the Earth. One has only to look at >>> the Moon and its visible record. For every basin >>> we see there, picture 18 just like it on the Earth. >>> >>> I suspect the rock-melting calculations of the model >>> are flawed at this scale. Punching though (or deep >>> enough into) the crust would not let anything be >>> buried. Instead, the release of pressure on the >>> high-pressure high-temperature interior would >>> cause it to melt, boil and explode outward. It >>> would expose the near-molten rock at 30 km down, >>> which is at a pressure of 150,000 pounds per square >>> inch, to the vacuum of deep space (for all practical >>> purposes, our atmosphere doesn't count). >>> >>> Gravity need not be taken into account in the >>> gas laws, but in a planetary body it is the source >>> of all interior pressure, right down to the 52,500,000 >>> pounds per square inch found at the center of the >>> Earth. I suspect that puncturing the thin but very >>> rigid skin of a planet would produce not merely basalt >>> flooding, but initially an immense "fire-fountain" type >>> of volcano that would blast material right out through >>> the atmosphere. What a sight that would be! I suspect >>> you'd want to watch from high orbit or maybe >>> the Moon, though. >>> >>> >>> Sterling K. Webb >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: >>> To: "Sterling K. Webb" >>> Cc: ; ; "Meteorite List" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 11:17 PM >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event >>> >>> >>>> Hi Sterling: >>>> >>>> Sounds more reasonable, if destroying everything is reasonable. >>>> >>>> Any idea how often these occur? This is 5 times the diameter of either >>>> Sudbury or Vredefort and these are more than a billion years old. >>>> >>>> Maybe this is big enough to punch through the mantle and bury itself >>>> in >>>> magma. >>>> >>>> >>>> Larry >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi, Larry, List, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I am WRONG! However, my mistake was not the >>>>> one you hypothesized. The Wikipedia gives mass in >>>>> kilograms and I reduced the quantity by 1000 to >>>>> convert it to tons (10^18 kg = 10^15 metric tons), >>>>> correctly. >>>>> >>>>> No, it was density. I think in grams per cubic centimeter >>>>> when I think density. Water = 1.0, rock = 2.5, and >>>>> so forth. The training is strong; one thinks in specific >>>>> density. But the online Calculator wants kilograms >>>>> per cubic meter, where water = 1000, rock = 2500, and >>>>> so forth. >>>>> >>>>> So I calculated the impact of a 100 kilometer diameter >>>>> SNOWFLAKE ! One with a specific density of about >>>>> 0.022, a little fat for a snowflake, actually... So, if you >>>>> ever want to know what impact a really big snowflake >>>>> would have, you've got it now. >>>>> >>>>> The actual figures? The energy is 304,000,000,000 >>>>> megatons. The crater is 1240 km (770 miles) across >>>>> and would be 2500 meters deep before it fills with >>>>> melt. The impact would melt 2,000,000 CUBIC MILES >>>>> of the Earth's crust, and the melt zone extends to a >>>>> depth of 35 kilometers, which in some places would >>>>> take it down into the mantle itself, and it would >>>>> certainly rebound and produce basalt flooding of >>>>> incomprehensible magnitude, likely enough to flood >>>>> and re-surface an entire continent. The "crater" >>>>> would be a complex multi-ringed basin about the >>>>> same size as the Moon's Mare Imbrium! >>>>> >>>>> Big enough for you now? >>>>> >>>>> This is a continent destroyer. The shock of the impact, >>>>> would be a world-wide Richter Scale 12.3, strong enough >>>>> to kill all animal life. The wind at the antipodeal point to >>>>> the impact would be 385 mph. At just a quarter of the way >>>>> around the planet (10,000 km away), the winds would >>>>> be 835 mph. >>>>> >>>>> The fireball of the impact would be over 300 kilometers >>>>> in diameter (190 miles) and it would be visible for 5570 >>>>> kilometers (3500 miles). The thermal flux would be 53 >>>>> times brighter than the Sun and everything organic within >>>>> the line of sight would combust. This fireball would persist >>>>> for nearly 8 hours (7 hours 42 minutes) before cooling >>>>> enough to collapse. The shock wave there (3500 miles >>>>> away) would be over 2000 mph, or about Mach 3. >>>>> >>>>> Major extinction event, clearly. >>>>> >>>>> I can't speak to the roaches; no one knows what it takes >>>>> to wipe them out, if indeed it's even possible. Still, at >>>>> the worst, the sulfur-eating thermophiles in the deep >>>>> vents would survive just fine, fat and happy, and they >>>>> could start this evolution thing all over again, something >>>>> they've probably had to do before, as the universal inclusion >>>>> of the 16S rna ribosome in most living things attests to. >>>>> >>>>> A little better? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sterling K. Webb >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: >>>>> To: "Sterling K. Webb" >>>>> Cc: ; "Meteorite List" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 9:03 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV >>>>> event >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Sterling: >>>>>> >>>>>> I will admit that, at first, I got the wrong asteroid (though now >>>>>> more >>>>>> interesting composition) and I am never one to say you are wrong, >>>>>> but... >>>>>> >>>>>> YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, that felt good! >>>>>> >>>>>> If you go by Wikipedia, you lost 3 zeros 1x10^18 bit 1X10^15. It >>>>>> would >>>>>> be >>>>>> had to believe that a 100-km diameter object (give or take) would >>>>>> make >>>>>> a >>>>>> 40-km hole in the ground unless it was going real slow and hit a >>>>>> really >>>>>> hard surface. >>>>>> >>>>>> Somthing that big would probably make a hole 1000 km or so across >>>>>> (at >>>>>> least), which would make it a bad day even for the roaches. >>>>>> >>>>>> Oh, did I forget to mention: >>>>>> >>>>>> You are wrong! It is a rare day that I get to say that to you >>>>>> Sterling, >>>>>> sorry. >>>>>> >>>>>> Larry >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, List, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To quantify that impact, I went and ran the numbers >>>>>>> through the online Impact Calculator that uses the >>>>>>> Jay Melosh model: >>>>>>> http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If 216 Kleopatra is 220 km x 100 km x 100 km, its >>>>>>> volume is 17,278,875.96 km^3 or a total of (take a >>>>>>> deep breath) 1,778,875,960,000,000 m^3. That's >>>>>>> 1.7 quadrillion cubic meters and its mass would be at >>>>>>> least 3.5 quadrillion metric tons. (Dogbone and Potato >>>>>>> asteroids have lots of voids and a high porosity.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, wait! It's 114 Kassandra? Get your Apocalypses >>>>>>> straight, people! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The volume of 114 Kassandra is less than Kleopatra: >>>>>>> 523,598,644,700,000 cubic meters. The mass of >>>>>>> 114 Kassandra, if rock, has to be at a minimum of >>>>>>> 1,500,000,000,000,000 tons, although some sources >>>>>>> say it's only 1,000,000,000,000,000. That big number >>>>>>> is a Quadrillion tons, in case you want to know. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OK, it's Kassandra! Smaller, lighter. Really puny. >>>>>>> I gave it an intercept velocity of 47 km/s, a little >>>>>>> slow for an eccentric orbit from the Asteroid Zone, >>>>>>> and an incidence angle of 45 degrees. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The energy of the collision is 1.20 x 10^24 Joules >>>>>>> or 268,000,000 MegaTons TNT. The Calculator says >>>>>>> "The average interval between impacts of this size >>>>>>> somewhere on Earth during the last 4 billion years >>>>>>> is 360,000,000 years." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That energy is the equivalent of an explosion created >>>>>>> by detonating a nuclear arsenal 1800 times bigger >>>>>>> than the entire nuclear arsenals of all the nations of >>>>>>> the world -- at once. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The final crater diameter is 39.5 km or 24.5 miles; >>>>>>> its final depth is 0.895 km or 0.556 miles. That seems >>>>>>> oddly small for something so big. Why is that? Well, >>>>>>> the Calculator says that the final crater is replaced >>>>>>> by a large, circular melt province. The volume of the >>>>>>> target melted or vaporized is 6410 cubic km or 1540 >>>>>>> cubic miles. The melt volume is 2.87 times the >>>>>>> crater volume >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If 114 Kassandra hit Los Angeles, you'd probably be >>>>>>> alright (for a while) if you were in New York City (or >>>>>>> Boston). You'd be alright, that is, if you can withstand >>>>>>> the shock wave which, at that distance, would have >>>>>>> a wind velocity of 140 mph, or a hurricane-level >>>>>>> Force Nine Gale on the Beaufort Scale. Where I live, >>>>>>> it'll be over 205 mph. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The real problem, I suspect, is in the vaporization of >>>>>>> a substantial percentage of that "melt province." If >>>>>>> 10% of the rock vaporized, or 1.5 trillion tons of rock >>>>>>> vapor would be distributed very quickly through the >>>>>>> atmosphere at temperatures of more than 2000 >>>>>>> degrees F. That quantity of rock vapor amounts to >>>>>>> about 20,000 tons of rock vapor per square mile >>>>>>> of the Earth's surface. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Impact Calculator does not discuss the contribution >>>>>>> of the asteroid to the mass of rock vapor. I would suggest >>>>>>> that at least 1% of it would survive as "mere" rock vapor >>>>>>> (instead of plasma) -- that's an additional ten trillion tons, >>>>>>> raising the distribution to 110,000 tons of rock vapor per >>>>>>> square mile of the Earth's surface (about 190,000,000 >>>>>>> square miles). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I suggest a very study, fireproofed umbrella would >>>>>>> be a good idea if you plan on going out... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is an impact at least 30 to 50 times worse than >>>>>>> the Chicxulub Impact which, it has been suggested, >>>>>>> burned most of the vegetation off the planet with its >>>>>>> rock vapor plume. 114 Kassandra's effect could only >>>>>>> be characterized as the "Krispy Kritter" impact. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It sounds like a a lousy environment in which to >>>>>>> stage a mini-series. But... That's Entertainment! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sterling K. Webb >>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> ------ Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: >>>>>>> To: >>>>>>> Cc: >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 12:03 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV >>>>>>> event >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If Kleopatra were to hit the Earth (at least that is what I get out >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> main page), we would be in big trouble. For those of you who do not >>>>>>> remember, 216 Kleopatra, thanks to radar observations, looks very >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> like a big dog bone, 220 kilometers long and 100 kilometers across. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Larry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Darren Garrison" >>>>>>> To: "Meteorite List" >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 11:38 AM >>>>>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Another awful meteorite-related TV event >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEn3LrswY8Zyro >>>>>>>> ______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ______________________________________________ >>>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 2 21:33:38 2009 From: stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com (steve arnold) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 18:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] freebies / sale/ AD Message-ID: <815772.27635.qm@web57803.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi everyone.To all my american meteorite friends here and abroad,I want to wish everyone a happy 4th of july on saturday.I am also having another givaway in honor of the holiday,and getting my first pay check.I have a 40.5 gram unclassed endcut,I also have a 3.3 gram nuveo mercurio,I also have a 3 gram small complete gao,and finally a 20 gram fragment of tamdaght.Also forsale I have a 226 gram LAS PALMAS,argentina iron for?$75 and free shipping.Also I have decided to open the vault and sell my 22 gram slice of JAMESTOWN,NORTH DAKOTA.I have had this piece for 9 years.I got this piece from a friend who?was selling me meteorites and working as a astronomer professor at a local junior college.So stay tuned for pics and prices.Chime in quick for the freebies. ?Steve R. Arnold From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 2 22:52:14 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 19:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Opinions on an oddball meteorite I cut open Message-ID: <580849.29356.qm@web55201.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Mike, I am coming in to this midstream--but if you can't see chondrules BUT can see metal flakes AND it is weakly attracted to a ND magnet, then this is strongly suggesting this isn't a meteorite. Some part of the things you've found don't seem to fit inside the normal wisdom. Elton From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Fri Jul 3 01:16:43 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 22:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] ISS volcano pictures - must see! Message-ID: <934953.60324.qm@web46414.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Totally awesome images from the ISS that captured a volcano erupting in one of the Kuril Islands in the Russian Federation. http://chamorrobible.org/gpw/gpw-200906-English.htm From ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 3 04:30:06 2009 From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com (ensoramanda at ntlworld.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 9:30:06 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] ISS volcano pictures - must see! In-Reply-To: <934953.60324.qm@web46414.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090703093006.V0CVP.222621.root@web06-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Amazing shots...you can actually see the progress of the debris and pyroplastic flows travelling down the lower valleys over just a few seconds in the sequence. Graham Ensor ---- Greg Catterton wrote: > > Totally awesome images from the ISS that captured a volcano erupting in one of the Kuril Islands in the Russian Federation. > > http://chamorrobible.org/gpw/gpw-200906-English.htm > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com Fri Jul 3 06:21:21 2009 From: SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com (SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 06:21:21 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - July 3, 2009 Message-ID: Rocks from Space Picture of the Day: http://www.rocksfromspace.org/July_3_2009.html Calendar: http://www.rocksfromspace.org/JULY_2009.html __________________________ **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585087x1201462804/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd= JulystepsfooterNO62) From pshugar at clearwire.net Fri Jul 3 12:48:56 2009 From: pshugar at clearwire.net (Pete Shugar) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 11:48:56 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] test-delete Message-ID: test message after computer crash Pete From eric at meteoritesusa.com Fri Jul 3 15:07:28 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:07:28 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Wholesale Message-ID: <4A4E56F0.7060703@meteoritesusa.com> Hello Listees, Dealers, A few days ago I sent and email requesting dealers who are interested in wholesale pricing on quality material to contact me offlist. I received 9 responses. Not bad... But I think we can do much better than that. My wholesale list only gets mailed out maybe once per week, and when I receive a new shipment. You will not be bothered by daily "sales" emails. Prices are fair and competitive. Quality of material is high, and from time to time I will offer some classified and average quality nwa at bargain prices. Shipping is fast, and material is packaged well. I've changed my business model to include a wholesale division of my company. I am a corporation, and not a sole proprietor, and have been incorporated since April of 2005 in Florida, USA. Dealers can join the wholesale list on my site at http://www.meteoritesusa.com/wholesale-list/ for more information. -- Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA 904-236-5394 From raremeteorites at yahoo.com Fri Jul 3 15:29:26 2009 From: raremeteorites at yahoo.com (Adam Hupe) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 12:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting Message-ID: <82806.80596.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear List Members, I cannot tell you how many people have inquired about meteorite hunting here in beautiful, friendly and very hot Laughlin, Nevada, USA. Although it is in the middle of the very best meteorite hunting grounds in the Southwest, this is not the time of year to hunt. Gold basin, Franconia, Red Lake, Ivanpah and Primm, all within and hour or so drive may be 10 degrees Fahrenheit cooler but still well over 100 degrees on most days this time of year. Here is an example that illustrates just how hot it gets here. I looked at the temperature gauge on my back patio and it was maxed out at 120 degrees Fahrenheit in the shade although the local paper stated it only got up to 116 degrees. I always heard that it gets hot enough to fry eggs on rocks so I gave it a try on my patio. The results can be seen at the links below: Egg Frying On Porch Link: http://themeteoritesite.com/Z-Egg-a.jpg Close-up: http://themeteoritesite.com/Z-Egg-b.jpg It only took about 20 minutes to get the egg to over-easy. Imagine if this was your head. Be careful if you are brave enough to hunt in these conditions. Bring lots of water, sunscreen and protective clothing. Best Regards from the hottest meteorite hunting grounds in the United States, Adam From eric at meteoritesusa.com Fri Jul 3 15:42:47 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:42:47 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting In-Reply-To: <82806.80596.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <82806.80596.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A4E5F37.1010000@meteoritesusa.com> Hi Adam, Now that's hot! So, where's the bacon? Hashbrowns? Eric Adam Hupe wrote: > Dear List Members, > > I cannot tell you how many people have inquired about meteorite hunting here in beautiful, friendly and very hot Laughlin, Nevada, USA. Although it is in the middle of the very best meteorite hunting grounds in the Southwest, this is not the time of year to hunt. Gold basin, Franconia, Red Lake, Ivanpah and Primm, all within and hour or so drive may be 10 degrees Fahrenheit cooler but still well over 100 degrees on most days this time of year. > > Here is an example that illustrates just how hot it gets here. I looked at the temperature gauge on my back patio and it was maxed out at 120 degrees Fahrenheit in the shade although the local paper stated it only got up to 116 degrees. I always heard that it gets hot enough to fry eggs on rocks so I gave it a try on my patio. The results can be seen at the links below: > > Egg Frying On Porch Link: > http://themeteoritesite.com/Z-Egg-a.jpg > > Close-up: > http://themeteoritesite.com/Z-Egg-b.jpg > > It only took about 20 minutes to get the egg to over-easy. Imagine if this was your head. Be careful if you are brave enough to hunt in these conditions. Bring lots of water, sunscreen and protective clothing. > > > Best Regards from the hottest meteorite hunting grounds in the United States, > > Adam > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > -- Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA http://www.meteoritesusa.com 904-236-5394 From meteoritemike at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 16:00:51 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 16:00:51 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting In-Reply-To: <82806.80596.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <82806.80596.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Adam and List, It reminds me of roofers working in the summer up on black tar paper. Right out of high school, I had a summer job in Florida doing lawn work. A friend of mine was a roofer. We both had to endure the merciless sun and choking humidity. We got into a friendly argument once over who had the hottest job. He won with a fried egg story to top them all. One July afternoon he was working on the roof of a mom and pop grocery store. During lunch break he went down and bought a half dozen eggs, a can of spam, and a loaf of bread. He then climbed back on the roof, put a piece of foil down on the black tar paper, and proceeded to cook fried spam and egg sandwiches for half of the crew. I don't know what impressed me more - the roof being hot enough to fry food, or coming back from lunch break and working in that heat with a belly full of fried eggs and meat. LOL Regards, MikeG On 7/3/09, Adam Hupe wrote: > > Dear List Members, > > I cannot tell you how many people have inquired about meteorite hunting here > in beautiful, friendly and very hot Laughlin, Nevada, USA. Although it is > in the middle of the very best meteorite hunting grounds in the Southwest, > this is not the time of year to hunt. Gold basin, Franconia, Red Lake, > Ivanpah and Primm, all within and hour or so drive may be 10 degrees > Fahrenheit cooler but still well over 100 degrees on most days this time of > year. > > Here is an example that illustrates just how hot it gets here. I looked at > the temperature gauge on my back patio and it was maxed out at 120 degrees > Fahrenheit in the shade although the local paper stated it only got up to > 116 degrees. I always heard that it gets hot enough to fry eggs on rocks so > I gave it a try on my patio. The results can be seen at the links below: > > Egg Frying On Porch Link: > http://themeteoritesite.com/Z-Egg-a.jpg > > Close-up: > http://themeteoritesite.com/Z-Egg-b.jpg > > It only took about 20 minutes to get the egg to over-easy. Imagine if this > was your head. Be careful if you are brave enough to hunt in these > conditions. Bring lots of water, sunscreen and protective clothing. > > > Best Regards from the hottest meteorite hunting grounds in the United > States, > > Adam > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From fuzzfoot at comcast.net Fri Jul 3 16:04:30 2009 From: fuzzfoot at comcast.net (Mike Bandli) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 13:04:30 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: Vulcan, Canada and others Message-ID: <25B7B8CC1EA9414C81561CFFEDB1B4E3@Bandli1> http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/astroartifacts Good afternoon, Ending Sunday is the very rare Vulcan, Canada meteorite and a micro lot of Farmville, NC. Both with museum provenance. Also, some cute little UNWA's... Have a great weekend! Mike Bandli http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/astroartifacts From bernd.pauli at paulinet.de Fri Jul 3 16:00:24 2009 From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de (bernd.pauli at paulinet.de) Date: 03 Jul 2009 20:00:24 UT Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting Message-ID: Hi MikeG, Adam and List, Your roofers anecdote "reminds" me of those two Polish roofers on my neigbor's roof. He got new tiles and, although our temperatures have "only" been around 95 to 100?F during the last few days, you were sweating with every movement of your body because of the almost unbearable humidity (up to 81%). By the way, what's "spam" in this context? > proceeded to cook fried s p a m and egg sandwiches ... Best from Germany, Bernd From meteoritemike at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 16:16:22 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 16:16:22 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bernd, http://www.spam.com/ Spam is a canned meat of dubious value - it's one of those foods that people either love or hate. Spam was lampooned by British Comedy troupe Monty Python's Flying Circus - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_(Monty_Python) My dad used to love eating the stuff, but I never developed a taste for it. Best regards, MikeG On 03 Jul 2009 20:00:24 UT, bernd.pauli at paulinet.de wrote: > Hi MikeG, Adam and List, > > Your roofers anecdote "reminds" me of those two Polish roofers on my > neigbor's > roof. He got new tiles and, although our temperatures have "only" been > around 95 > to 100?F during the last few days, you were sweating with every movement of > your > body because of the almost unbearable humidity (up to 81%). By the way, > what's > "spam" in this context? > >> proceeded to cook fried s p a m and egg sandwiches ... > > Best from Germany, > > Bernd > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From erikfwebb at msn.com Fri Jul 3 16:17:48 2009 From: erikfwebb at msn.com (Erik Fisler) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 13:17:48 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting In-Reply-To: References: <82806.80596.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The heat isn't that bad at night. It's only 90 degrees at night with a warm breeze at franconia. Just strap a maglight to your detector and grab a head light and 20 AA batteries and your good. I've found that I find more at night because I wander aimlessly instead of hitting the spots that look good to everyone else who walks through the field. We hunted till 9am when it got up to 110 degrees and then we drove to Needles and slept in an ice cold motel room till the sun set before grabbing "breakfast" and heading back out to Franconia. Here is a video of a night hunt we did about a year ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5gDa6dJ5Ac [Erik] > On 7/3/09, Adam Hupe wrote: >> >> Dear List Members, >> >> I cannot tell you how many people have inquired about meteorite hunting here >> in beautiful, friendly and very hot Laughlin, Nevada, USA. Although it is >> in the middle of the very best meteorite hunting grounds in the Southwest, >> this is not the time of year to hunt. Gold basin, Franconia, Red Lake, >> Ivanpah and Primm, all within and hour or so drive may be 10 degrees >> Fahrenheit cooler but still well over 100 degrees on most days this time of >> year. >> >> Here is an example that illustrates just how hot it gets here. I looked at >> the temperature gauge on my back patio and it was maxed out at 120 degrees >> Fahrenheit in the shade although the local paper stated it only got up to >> 116 degrees. I always heard that it gets hot enough to fry eggs on rocks so >> I gave it a try on my patio. The results can be seen at the links below: >> >> Egg Frying On Porch Link: >> http://themeteoritesite.com/Z-Egg-a.jpg >> >> Close-up: >> http://themeteoritesite.com/Z-Egg-b.jpg >> >> It only took about 20 minutes to get the egg to over-easy. Imagine if this >> was your head. Be careful if you are brave enough to hunt in these >> conditions. Bring lots of water, sunscreen and protective clothing. >> >> >> Best Regards from the hottest meteorite hunting grounds in the United >> States, >> >> Adam >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > > -- > ......................................................... > Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) > Member of the Meteoritical Society. > Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. > Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com > .......................................................... > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From cynapse at charter.net Fri Jul 3 17:27:16 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:27:16 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] A new gimmicky meteorite collectable In-Reply-To: <4A4E56F0.7060703@meteoritesusa.com> References: <4A4E56F0.7060703@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: For those with deep pockets and a fondness for gimmicky meteorite collectables. http://features.csmonitor.com/books/2009/07/02/prices-on-mailers-moon-book-are-out-of-this-world/ From sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 3 16:34:41 2009 From: sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net (Sterling K. Webb) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 15:34:41 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting References: Message-ID: Bernd, SPAM is a modified meat product containing, according to the can from my cupboard, "Ham, Mechanically Separated Chicken, Water, Salt, Modified Potato Starch, Sugar, Sodium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Sodium Ascorbate, and Sodium Nitrite." It is a rectangle 9 cm by 9 cm by 4 cm, most easily cut into four 9 cm squares each one cm thick and about 85 grams in weight. Like WURST, one is better off not knowing what is in it, or watching it being made, but enjoying it in ignorance. Very tasty. Sterling K. Webb -------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 3:00 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting Hi MikeG, Adam and List, Your roofers anecdote "reminds" me of those two Polish roofers on my neigbor's roof. He got new tiles and, although our temperatures have "only" been around 95 to 100?F during the last few days, you were sweating with every movement of your body because of the almost unbearable humidity (up to 81%). By the way, what's "spam" in this context? > proceeded to cook fried s p a m and egg sandwiches ... Best from Germany, Bernd ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From cynapse at charter.net Fri Jul 3 17:45:10 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:45:10 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 15:34:41 -0500, you wrote: >SPAM is a modified meat product containing, >according to the can from my cupboard, ... Also, the use of the term "spam" for unwanted bulk e-mail was taken from a Monty Pyton skit involving the foodish product: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE From bernd.pauli at paulinet.de Fri Jul 3 16:41:10 2009 From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de (bernd.pauli at paulinet.de) Date: 03 Jul 2009 20:41:10 UT Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting and "Spam" Message-ID: Thanks, folks, for all those details re: spam. Very much appreciated! Bernd P:S.: Do any of our German list members have a German word for that kind of canned food ??? From gmhupe at htn.net Fri Jul 3 17:04:10 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 17:04:10 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting and "Spam" References: Message-ID: <7E523CAB2DBC4BDCBD0E49E2563C3C68@Gregor> "SPAM", translated = "YUCK", "Slimy" and similar to those small "Cocktail Weenies" (similar to pale dog poop units!). Happy Fourth Weekend! Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:41 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting and "Spam" > Thanks, folks, for all those details re: spam. Very much appreciated! > > Bernd > > P:S.: Do any of our German list members have a German word for that > kind of canned food ??? > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From minador at yahoo.com Fri Jul 3 17:14:50 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 14:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting Message-ID: <759612.43408.qm@web54407.mail.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 7/3/09, Erik Fisler wrote: > and slept in an ice cold motel > room till the sun set before grabbing?"breakfast" and > heading back out to Franconia. Did you order any Spam? It's always a good hunting/camping food! ;-) When you have limited free time you have to take advantage of it. Even in the summer days. Great points Adam. You must take the sun seriously! I like the cloths I purchased here: http://www.coolibar.com Of course Erik and his Dad found a great way around that! Thanks for the cool vid... Day or night, one must never go anywhere in the field without plenty of water. Since I got my ruggedized water bladder, I never go anywhere without it: http://www.camelbak.com/en/government-military/hydration-packs.aspx Just be sure to have plenty of extra in case you break down. Good luck and happy hunting! From riffraff at timewarp.de Fri Jul 3 17:19:33 2009 From: riffraff at timewarp.de (Norbert Classen) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 23:19:33 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting and "Spam" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <159689E546334486ABFE9A0D530D2358@lunatic> Hi Bernd, You asked: P:S.: Do any of our German list members have a German word for that kind of canned food ??? "Fr?hst?cksfleisch" or "Dosenfleisch" - YUCK! Actually, "spam" seems to be an abbrevation of "spiced pork and ham"... Hope this helps, Norbert From ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 3 19:10:22 2009 From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com (ensoramanda at ntlworld.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 0:10:22 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20090704001022.QH9IM.240662.root@web06-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> The name supposedly came from shortening 'SPiced hAM' ---- Galactic Stone & Ironworks wrote: > Hi Bernd, > > http://www.spam.com/ > > Spam is a canned meat of dubious value - it's one of those foods that > people either love or hate. > > Spam was lampooned by British Comedy troupe Monty Python's Flying Circus - > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_(Monty_Python) > > My dad used to love eating the stuff, but I never developed a taste for it. > > Best regards, > > MikeG > > On 03 Jul 2009 20:00:24 UT, bernd.pauli at paulinet.de > wrote: > > Hi MikeG, Adam and List, > > > > Your roofers anecdote "reminds" me of those two Polish roofers on my > > neigbor's > > roof. He got new tiles and, although our temperatures have "only" been > > around 95 > > to 100?F during the last few days, you were sweating with every movement of > > your > > body because of the almost unbearable humidity (up to 81%). By the way, > > what's > > "spam" in this context? > > > >> proceeded to cook fried s p a m and egg sandwiches ... > > > > Best from Germany, > > > > Bernd > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > -- > ......................................................... > Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) > Member of the Meteoritical Society. > Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. > Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com > .......................................................... > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 3 19:10:11 2009 From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com (ensoramanda at ntlworld.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 0:10:11 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20090704001011.EXZ2N.240659.root@web06-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> The name supposedly came fronm shortening 'SPiced hAM' ---- Galactic Stone & Ironworks wrote: > Hi Bernd, > > http://www.spam.com/ > > Spam is a canned meat of dubious value - it's one of those foods that > people either love or hate. > > Spam was lampooned by British Comedy troupe Monty Python's Flying Circus - > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_(Monty_Python) > > My dad used to love eating the stuff, but I never developed a taste for it. > > Best regards, > > MikeG > > On 03 Jul 2009 20:00:24 UT, bernd.pauli at paulinet.de > wrote: > > Hi MikeG, Adam and List, > > > > Your roofers anecdote "reminds" me of those two Polish roofers on my > > neigbor's > > roof. He got new tiles and, although our temperatures have "only" been > > around 95 > > to 100?F during the last few days, you were sweating with every movement of > > your > > body because of the almost unbearable humidity (up to 81%). By the way, > > what's > > "spam" in this context? > > > >> proceeded to cook fried s p a m and egg sandwiches ... > > > > Best from Germany, > > > > Bernd > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > -- > ......................................................... > Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) > Member of the Meteoritical Society. > Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. > Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com > .......................................................... > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 3 19:28:04 2009 From: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com (Carl 's) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 16:28:04 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting and "Spam" Message-ID: I thought the name came from pork shoulder and ham? Carl ensoramanda wrote:>The name supposedly came fronm shortening 'SPiced hAM' _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 From parkforestmet at hotmail.com Fri Jul 3 21:40:21 2009 From: parkforestmet at hotmail.com (bill kies) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 20:40:21 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ugh. I remember similar products when I was stamping cans as a grocery stock boy. Spork and Speef. Please excuse my offtopicness. http://www.flickr.com/photos/jbcurio/410913153/ > From: cynapse at charter.net > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 16:45:10 -0500 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting > > On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 15:34:41 -0500, you wrote: > >>SPAM is a modified meat product containing, >>according to the can from my cupboard, > > ... > > Also, the use of the term "spam" for unwanted bulk e-mail was taken from a Monty > Pyton skit involving the foodish product: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 3 21:55:54 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 18:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Opinions on an oddball meteorite I cut open Message-ID: <623883.20670.qm@web55202.mail.re4.yahoo.com> As I myself was out hunting meteorites today, I had another thought about your specimen Mike. The nickel content of the free metal might be so high it makes the specimen less attractive to a magnet. Certainly an enigma which is probably going to need lab work to resolve why it is so atypical. Good Luck in finding an answer Elton --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Mr EMan wrote: > From: Mr EMan > Mike, I am coming in to this midstream--but if you can't > see chondrules BUT can see metal flakes AND it is weakly > attracted to a ND magnet, then this is strongly suggesting > this isn't a meteorite.? Some part of the things you've > found don't seem to fit inside the normal wisdom. > > Elton > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteoritemike at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 22:20:44 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 22:20:44 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Opinions on an oddball meteorite I cut open In-Reply-To: <623883.20670.qm@web55202.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <623883.20670.qm@web55202.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Elton and List, I fairly certain it is a meteorite, and from the advice I have received, it is probably an LL6 or something thereabouts - low magnetism and a general lack of distinct chondrules - some of those types have a grey matrix and can casually resemble a eucrite. This is what I have been told by some more experienced List members. If it was larger or something possibly more rare, I would consider having it classified. But, given that it's likely an OC and it's very small, I doubt it will ever be classified. It will go back into the oddball box to keep the others company. ;) Unless someone wants to volunteer their skills and microscope to make a better determination on it - in which case I will mail out a slice for a free. Best regards, MikeG On 7/3/09, Mr EMan wrote: > > > As I myself was out hunting meteorites today, I had another thought about > your specimen Mike. The nickel content of the free metal might be so high > it makes the specimen less attractive to a magnet. > > Certainly an enigma which is probably going to need lab work to resolve why > it is so atypical. > > Good Luck in finding an answer > > Elton > --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Mr EMan wrote: > >> From: Mr EMan >> Mike, I am coming in to this midstream--but if you can't >> see chondrules BUT can see metal flakes AND it is weakly >> attracted to a ND magnet, then this is strongly suggesting >> this isn't a meteorite. Some part of the things you've >> found don't seem to fit inside the normal wisdom. >> >> Elton >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From info at meteorites.com.au Sat Jul 4 02:51:31 2009 From: info at meteorites.com.au (Jeff Kuyken) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 16:51:31 +1000 Subject: [meteorite-list] ISS volcano pictures - must see! In-Reply-To: <20090703093006.V0CVP.222621.root@web06-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> References: <20090703093006.V0CVP.222621.root@web06-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Message-ID: <283FD2D716C1472CA250FCA660CCB9EE@JeffPC> I noticed the same thing Graham. This is one of the most remarkable series of photographs that I have ever seen taken from space! The QuickTime animation from the NASA Earth Observatory is a must see! http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=38985 Cheers, Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; "Greg Catterton" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ISS volcano pictures - must see! > Amazing shots...you can actually see the progress of the debris and > pyroplastic flows travelling down the lower valleys over just a few > seconds in the sequence. > > Graham Ensor > > ---- Greg Catterton wrote: >> >> Totally awesome images from the ISS that captured a volcano erupting in >> one of the Kuril Islands in the Russian Federation. >> >> http://chamorrobible.org/gpw/gpw-200906-English.htm >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > From ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 4 05:26:37 2009 From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com (ensoramanda at ntlworld.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 10:26:37 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] ISS volcano pictures - must see! In-Reply-To: <283FD2D716C1472CA250FCA660CCB9EE@JeffPC> Message-ID: <20090704102637.1JYJ8.243481.root@web08-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> WOW! Well worth a look. Thanks for that link Jeff Graham ---- Jeff Kuyken wrote: > I noticed the same thing Graham. This is one of the most remarkable series > of photographs that I have ever seen taken from space! The QuickTime > animation from the NASA Earth Observatory is a must see! > > http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=38985 > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; "Greg Catterton" > > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 6:30 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ISS volcano pictures - must see! > > > > Amazing shots...you can actually see the progress of the debris and > > pyroplastic flows travelling down the lower valleys over just a few > > seconds in the sequence. > > > > Graham Ensor > > > > ---- Greg Catterton wrote: > >> > >> Totally awesome images from the ISS that captured a volcano erupting in > >> one of the Kuril Islands in the Russian Federation. > >> > >> http://chamorrobible.org/gpw/gpw-200906-English.htm > >> > >> > >> > >> ______________________________________________ > >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > From almitt at kconline.com Sat Jul 4 05:47:28 2009 From: almitt at kconline.com (al mitt) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 05:47:28 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting In-Reply-To: References: <82806.80596.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Erik and all, Don't the snakes come out at night and warm themselves on the still toasty rocks?? --AL Mitterling ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik Fisler" To: "meteorite-list" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:17 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting > > The heat isn't that bad at night. It's only 90 degrees at night with > a warm breeze at franconia. Just strap a maglight to your detector > and grab a head light and 20 AA batteries and your good. > I've found that I find more at night because I wander aimlessly > instead of hitting the spots that look good to everyone else who > walks through the field. We hunted till 9am when it got up to 110 degrees > and then we drove to Needles and slept in an ice cold motel room > till the sun set before grabbing "breakfast" and heading back out to > Franconia. > > Here is a video of a night hunt we did about a year ago. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5gDa6dJ5Ac > > [Erik] From SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com Sat Jul 4 08:01:16 2009 From: SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com (SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 08:01:16 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - July 4, 2009 Message-ID: http://www.rocksfromspace.org/July_4_2009.html __________________________ **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221323013x1201367230/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd= JulystepsfooterNO62) From romanj at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 4 08:36:12 2009 From: romanj at sympatico.ca (Roman Jirasek) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 08:36:12 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - July 4, 2009 References: Message-ID: Nice one Jack!! Congratulations! Looks like the next hunt has begun. Cheers, Roman Jirasek ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 8:01 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - July 4, 2009 > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/July_4_2009.html > > > __________________________ > > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 > easy > steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221323013x1201367230/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd= > JulystepsfooterNO62) > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 08:41:10 2009 From: stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com (steve arnold) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 05:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] new arizona fall Message-ID: <812128.59896.qm@web57803.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Wow this is really exciting! A new arizona fall. Its been 97 years. Way to go jack.It looks like a really fresh fall. I hope the hunters find lots and lots of kilo's of this new fall. And no export papers!!!!!! What a?way to celabrate the 4th of july. ?Steve R. Arnold From schraderj at rocketmail.com Sat Jul 4 08:42:38 2009 From: schraderj at rocketmail.com (Jack Schrader) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 05:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall Message-ID: <711539.97824.qm@web111002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dear List Members, I have a very important announcement to make and one I am sure everyone will be very excited about.? Most of you have already heard the news about the fireball which was sighted over Southern Arizona at 9:22 pm on the evening of Tuesday June 23.?? I would like to announce that I have recovered material from this fall.?? I recovered a 155.6 gram stone at 6:20 pm on Thursday, June 25, which is 44 hours and 58 minutes after the fireball was sighted.?? Fortunately the material recovered was recovered in an absolutely pristine state as the area had no monsoon season rainfall previous to my discovery.?? I was able to very quickly zero in on the area with the help of numerous phone calls and eyewitness reports which were all thoroughly investigated with follow up visits.? With GPS, compass and notepad in hand, I put well over 300 miles on my vehicle in less than two days.? The area people were extremely excited about this event and more than willing to offer whatever information they had about the sighting.?? I was born and raised in this part of Arizona and my intimate knowledge of the country, the terrain, the trails and back roads has proved invaluable in my search.?? I have sent a photo to Michael Johnson and requested he post it on?Rocks from Space Picture of the Day?for July 4. I would like to also take this opportunity to extend my very best wishes to each and every one of you for a very pleasant holiday.? Happy 4th of July!? Jack Schrader From info at tektiteinc.com Sat Jul 4 09:26:18 2009 From: info at tektiteinc.com (info at tektiteinc.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 09:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - TektiteInc.com Sale - 60% Off - 70% Off... Message-ID: <47103.127.0.0.1.1246713978.squirrel@syd-srv07.ezyreg.com> Hello all, Not many Rizalites are left on my site and I really want to sell all the specimens. However, the site will still be maintained for reference purposes. Make me an offer, 60% Off, even 70% Off! All serious offers Off List please. Please also have a look at the quality specimens from my ebay Store which are now at 50% Off. Shipping Info: Under 150grams $8 Over 150grams $12 Over 400grams and under 1Kilo $33 via FedEx to the US only. European customers please email for FedEx costs. Cheers, Desmond Leong IMCA #2254 http://www.TektiteInc.com http://stores.ebay.com/Tektite-Inc http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZtektiteinc-dot-com From fuzzfoot at comcast.net Sat Jul 4 09:47:58 2009 From: fuzzfoot at comcast.net (Mike Bandli) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 06:47:58 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall In-Reply-To: <711539.97824.qm@web111002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <711539.97824.qm@web111002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <60FB274A09B24866AE3BDA42645083C5@Bandli1> >>44 hours and 58 minutes after the fireball Exciting and impressive! Good to see a local native find a meteorite in his own backyard. That's the stuff we all dream of. I can't imagine the emotions that ran through you when you first set eyes on her. Happy 4th! Mike Bandli -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Jack Schrader Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 5:43 AM To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall Dear List Members, I have a very important announcement to make and one I am sure everyone will be very excited about.? Most of you have already heard the news about the fireball which was sighted over Southern Arizona at 9:22 pm on the evening of Tuesday June 23.?? I would like to announce that I have recovered material from this fall.?? I recovered a 155.6 gram stone at 6:20 pm on Thursday, June 25, which is 44 hours and 58 minutes after the fireball was sighted.?? Fortunately the material recovered was recovered in an absolutely pristine state as the area had no monsoon season rainfall previous to my discovery.?? I was able to very quickly zero in on the area with the help of numerous phone calls and eyewitness reports which were all thoroughly investigated with follow up visits.? With GPS, compass and notepad in hand, I put well over 300 miles on my vehicle in less than two days.? The area people were extremely excited about this event and more than willing to offer whatever information they had about the sighting.?? I was born and raised in this part of Arizona and my intimate knowledge of the country, the terrain, the trails and back roads has proved invaluable in my search.?? I have sent a photo to Michael Johnson and requested he post it on?Rocks from Space Picture of the Day?for July 4. I would like to also take this opportunity to extend my very best wishes to each and every one of you for a very pleasant holiday.? Happy 4th of July!? Jack Schrader ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From meteoritefinder at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 09:51:34 2009 From: meteoritefinder at yahoo.com (Robert Woolard) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 06:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall Message-ID: <102756.2353.qm@web39603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A very big CONGRATS on your recovery, Jack! Nicely, and very quickly done. Beautiful looking stone. Best wishes, Robert Woolard p.s. Oh yeah. Now WHAT were those GPS coordinates again??? ;-) Good luck in further recoveries! From meteoriteguy at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 10:15:02 2009 From: meteoriteguy at yahoo.com (Michael Farmer) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 07:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall Message-ID: <212341.90904.qm@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> My warmest Congratulations Jack, way to go! The weather here in Arizona is not exactly the best for meteorite hunting, as I was out there merely 12 hours after my return from Europe on Tuesday. My neck now has blisters to prove it. 103 degrees, rattlesnakes (one of our female friends nearly stepped on one). I am sure she prefers the cow dung from West:) Jack Schrader is a great meteorite hunter, has hundreds of meteorite pieces under his belt, and I am proud that a fellow meteorite hunter has found the first stones. To my knowledge, he and Thomas Grau are the only meteorite hunters to make the initial finds, not landowners. It proves that a lot of work and beating the bushes pays off for those who try. I am so happy that Arizona has it's first recovered fall in 97 years, and it is close to my house! I know where my 4th will be spent, and the 5th and 6th ..................................... See you out there in a couple of hours Jack. Michael Farmer From epgrondine at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 11:18:02 2009 From: epgrondine at yahoo.com (E.P. Grondine) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 08:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite hunting television series? Message-ID: <700043.21350.qm@web36903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello everyone - It seems to me that there might be a demand for a meteorite hunting television series from one of the satellite channels. With the improvements in bollide reporting via the net, these hunts are getting regular now. With desk top video now a reality the possibility looms. I don't know about existing footage from recent hunts, but perhaps you could fill in the unrecorded parts with "re-enactments". Of course, such projects would require co-operation between you and your competitors, but then all of you would stand to gain from the end product. On an unrelated note, given Firestone, Kenneth, and Tankersley's finds, would any of you like to reconsider your remarks on Hibben's observations at Fairbanks? E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas From bernd.pauli at paulinet.de Sat Jul 4 11:14:16 2009 From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de (bernd.pauli at paulinet.de) Date: 04 Jul 2009 15:14:16 UT Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - July 4, 2009 Message-ID: Wow! Congratulations, Jack! As the stone was already recovered "shortly" after the fireball was sighted, the short-lived radionuclides should yield important information on that one! Cheers and a Happy Fourth of July to the American list members! Bernd From cynapse at charter.net Sat Jul 4 12:47:15 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 11:47:15 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall In-Reply-To: <212341.90904.qm@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <212341.90904.qm@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 07:15:02 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >Jack Schrader is a great meteorite hunter, >has hundreds of meteorite pieces under his belt No, he is just happy to see you. >I am so happy that Arizona has it's first recovered fall in 97 years, and it is close to my house! I know where my 4th will be spent, and the 5th and 6th ..................................... > Maybe this search will be less of a circus with no media coverage (yet). From gmhupe at htn.net Sat Jul 4 11:54:37 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 11:54:37 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall References: <711539.97824.qm@web111002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Excellent job, Jack! Congratulations and Happy Fourth!! Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Schrader" To: Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 8:42 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall Dear List Members, I have a very important announcement to make and one I am sure everyone will be very excited about. Most of you have already heard the news about the fireball which was sighted over Southern Arizona at 9:22 pm on the evening of Tuesday June 23. I would like to announce that I have recovered material from this fall. I recovered a 155.6 gram stone at 6:20 pm on Thursday, June 25, which is 44 hours and 58 minutes after the fireball was sighted. Fortunately the material recovered was recovered in an absolutely pristine state as the area had no monsoon season rainfall previous to my discovery. I was able to very quickly zero in on the area with the help of numerous phone calls and eyewitness reports which were all thoroughly investigated with follow up visits. With GPS, compass and notepad in hand, I put well over 300 miles on my vehicle in less than two days. The area people were extremely excited about this event and more than willing to offer whatever information they had about the sighting. I was born and raised in this part of Arizona and my intimate knowledge of the country, the terrain, the trails and back roads has proved invaluable in my search. I have sent a photo to Michael Johnson and requested he post it on Rocks from Space Picture of the Day for July 4. I would like to also take this opportunity to extend my very best wishes to each and every one of you for a very pleasant holiday. Happy 4th of July! Jack Schrader ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From meteoritemike at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 12:18:04 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 12:18:04 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall In-Reply-To: <711539.97824.qm@web111002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <711539.97824.qm@web111002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jack, Congratulations on beating the bloodhounds to the find! :) This is a great way to celebrate the fourth! No export permits - in your face Canada! ;) LOL Are you mapping out the strewnfield and looking for other fragments? Best regards, MikeG On 7/4/09, Jack Schrader wrote: > > Dear List Members, > I have a very important announcement to make and one I am sure everyone will > be very excited about. Most of you have already heard the news about the > fireball which was sighted over Southern Arizona at 9:22 pm on the evening > of Tuesday June 23. I would like to announce that I have recovered > material from this fall. I recovered a 155.6 gram stone at 6:20 pm on > Thursday, June 25, which is 44 hours and 58 minutes after the fireball was > sighted. Fortunately the material recovered was recovered in an absolutely > pristine state as the area had no monsoon season rainfall previous to my > discovery. I was able to very quickly zero in on the area with the help of > numerous phone calls and eyewitness reports which were all thoroughly > investigated with follow up visits. With GPS, compass and notepad in hand, > I put well over 300 miles on my vehicle in less than two days. The area > people were extremely excited about this event and more than willing > to offer whatever information they had about the sighting. I was born and > raised in this part of Arizona and my intimate knowledge of the country, the > terrain, the trails and back roads has proved invaluable in my search. > > I have sent a photo to Michael Johnson and requested he post it on Rocks > from Space Picture of the Day for July 4. > > I would like to also take this opportunity to extend my very best wishes to > each and every one of you for a very pleasant holiday. Happy 4th of July! > > Jack Schrader > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From minador at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 12:22:43 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 09:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall Message-ID: <302054.46160.qm@web54408.mail.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 7/4/09, Darren Garrison wrote: > > > Maybe this search will be less of a circus with no media > coverage (yet). Yeah, it's probably pretty islolated. This is exciting!! Congratulations to Jack! Good luck finding more! From cdtucson at cox.net Sat Jul 4 12:26:21 2009 From: cdtucson at cox.net (cdtucson at cox.net) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 9:26:21 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20090704122621.WTE3P.176873.imail@fed1rmwml42> Darren, That was Too funny. LOL. Thanks for that and congrats to jack. I will see you out there. -- Carl or Debbie Esparza IMCA 5829 Meteoritemax ---- Darren Garrison wrote: > On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 07:15:02 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > > >Jack Schrader is a great meteorite hunter, > >has hundreds of meteorite pieces under his belt > > No, he is just happy to see you. > > >I am so happy that Arizona has it's first recovered fall in 97 years, and it is close to my house! I know where my 4th will be spent, and the 5th and 6th ..................................... > > > > Maybe this search will be less of a circus with no media coverage (yet). > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From geoking at notkin.net Sat Jul 4 13:04:21 2009 From: geoking at notkin.net (Notkin) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 10:04:21 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall In-Reply-To: <711539.97824.qm@web111002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <711539.97824.qm@web111002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Jack: Hearty congratulations on your find! We also put in hundreds of miles, interviewed many eyewitnesses and did a number of local news TV spots in the hope that more people who saw the fireball would come forward. But no finds for us. There is some hard country out there and -- as you well know -- it's been hot and muggy down here in the Sonoran Desert. You're the Arizona champ, job well done. Cheers and good hunting (and watch out for those rattlesnakes), Geoff N. www.aerolite.org www.meteoritemen.com www.meteoriteblog.org From majbaermann at web.de Sat Jul 4 14:13:34 2009 From: majbaermann at web.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Matthias_B=E4rmann?=) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:13:34 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall References: <711539.97824.qm@web111002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CC8FBE1486F45629FCF33D5A093E2C4@thinkcentre> Well, dear Geoff, why "beware of the rattlesnakes"? Don't we already have a meteorite hunting dog? So, why the hell not meteorite hunting rattlesnakes? No one knows better desert hunting conditions. No expensive dog's food - one of the hunters from time to time would do. And, not to forget: what a wonderful precision! Soft rattle: small meteorite. Strong rattle: big full crusted individual. 2 rattles: oriented individual. rattle chorus: ... ahm ... asteroid. [protected business concept] Matthias B. P.S. Please have all a fine 4th. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Notkin" To: "Jack Schrader" ; "Meteorite List" Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 7:04 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall > Dear Jack: > > Hearty congratulations on your find! > > We also put in hundreds of miles, interviewed many eyewitnesses and did a > number of local news TV spots in the hope that more people who saw the > fireball would come forward. But no finds for us. > > There is some hard country out there and -- as you well know -- it's been > hot and muggy down here in the Sonoran Desert. You're the Arizona champ, > job well done. > > > Cheers and good hunting (and watch out for those rattlesnakes), > > Geoff N. > > www.aerolite.org > www.meteoritemen.com > www.meteoriteblog.org > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From MeteorHntr at aol.com Sat Jul 4 14:24:00 2009 From: MeteorHntr at aol.com (MeteorHntr at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 14:24:00 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall Message-ID: Woo Hoo! Way to go Dr. Jack! How cool is that? Congrats and best of luck in finding a lot more of them. 300 miles = 1 meteorite I like that ratio! Steve Arnold of "Meteorite Men" **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221323013x1201367230/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd= JulystepsfooterNO62) From daistiho at hotmail.com Sat Jul 4 14:39:11 2009 From: daistiho at hotmail.com (tracy latimer) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 18:39:11 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall In-Reply-To: <711539.97824.qm@web111002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <711539.97824.qm@web111002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yowza! Congratulations on a successful hunt. Did you find any additional pieces after the first propitious find? Best! Tracy Latimer > Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 05:42:38 -0700 > From: schraderj at rocketmail.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall > > > Dear List Members, > I have a very important announcement to make and one I am sure everyone will be very excited about. Most of you have already heard the news about the fireball which was sighted over Southern Arizona at 9:22 pm on the evening of Tuesday June 23. I would like to announce that I have recovered material from this fall. I recovered a 155.6 gram stone at 6:20 pm on Thursday, June 25, which is 44 hours and 58 minutes after the fireball was sighted. Fortunately the material recovered was recovered in an absolutely pristine state as the area had no monsoon season rainfall previous to my discovery. I was able to very quickly zero in on the area with the help of numerous phone calls and eyewitness reports which were all thoroughly investigated with follow up visits. With GPS, compass and notepad in hand, I put well over 300 miles on my vehicle in less than two days. The area people were extremely excited about this event and more than willing > to offer whatever information they had about the sighting. I was born and raised in this part of Arizona and my intimate knowledge of the country, the terrain, the trails and back roads has proved invaluable in my search. > > I have sent a photo to Michael Johnson and requested he post it on Rocks from Space Picture of the Day for July 4. > > I would like to also take this opportunity to extend my very best wishes to each and every one of you for a very pleasant holiday. Happy 4th of July! > > Jack Schrader > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 From meteoriteguy at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 14:43:02 2009 From: meteoriteguy at yahoo.com (Michael Farmer) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 11:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall Message-ID: <640321.19194.qm@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Sent from my iPhone Michael On Jul 4, 2009, at 11:39 AM, tracy latimer wrote: Yowza! Congratulations on a successful hunt. Did you find any additional pieces after the first propitious find? Best! Tracy Latimer Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 05:42:38 -0700 From: schraderj at rocketmail.com To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall Dear List Members, I have a very important announcement to make and one I am sure everyone will be very excited about. Most of you have already heard the news about the fireball which was sighted over Southern Arizona at 9:22 pm on the evening of Tuesday June 23. I would like to announce that I have recovered material from this fall. I recovered a 155.6 gram stone at 6:20 pm on Thursday, June 25, which is 44 hours and 58 minutes after the fireball was sighted. Fortunately the material recovered was recovered in an absolutely pristine state as the area had no monsoon season rainfall previous to my discovery. I was able to very quickly zero in on the area with the help of numerous phone calls and eyewitness reports which were all thoroughly investigated with follow up visits. With GPS, compass and notepad in hand, I put well over 300 miles on my vehicle in less than two days. The area people were extremely excited about this event and more than willing to offer whatever information they had about the sighting. I was born and raised in this part of Arizona and my intimate knowledge of the country, the terrain, the trails and back roads has proved invaluable in my search. I have sent a photo to Michael Johnson and requested he post it on Rocks from Space Picture of the Day for July 4. I would like to also take this opportunity to extend my very best wishes to each and every one of you for a very pleasant holiday. Happy 4th of July! Jack Schrader ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From meteoritehunter at comcast.net Sat Jul 4 14:47:19 2009 From: meteoritehunter at comcast.net (Michael Farmer) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 11:47:19 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall In-Reply-To: <640321.19194.qm@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <640321.19194.qm@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Other pieces have been found. Major hooras due to Shauna and Robert. The team is kicking ass but I have found nothing. Sent from my iPhone Michael On Jul 4, 2009, at 11:43 AM, Michael Farmer wrote: > > > > Sent from my iPhone > Michael > > > On Jul 4, 2009, at 11:39 AM, tracy latimer > wrote: > > > Yowza! Congratulations on a successful hunt. Did you find any > additional pieces after the first propitious find? > > Best! > Tracy Latimer > > Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 05:42:38 -0700 > From: schraderj at rocketmail.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall > > > Dear List Members, > I have a very important announcement to make and one I am sure > everyone will be very excited about. Most of you have already heard > the news about the fireball which was sighted over Southern Arizona > at 9:22 pm on the evening of Tuesday June 23. I would like to > announce that I have recovered material from this fall. I > recovered a 155.6 gram stone at 6:20 pm on Thursday, June 25, which > is 44 hours and 58 minutes after the fireball was sighted. > Fortunately the material recovered was recovered in an absolutely > pristine state as the area had no monsoon season rainfall previous > to my discovery. I was able to very quickly zero in on the area > with the help of numerous phone calls and eyewitness reports which > were all thoroughly investigated with follow up visits. With GPS, > compass and notepad in hand, I put well over 300 miles on my vehicle > in less than two days. The area people were extremely excited about > this event and more than willing > to offer whatever information they had about the sighting. I was > born and raised in this part of Arizona and my intimate knowledge of > the country, the terrain, the trails and back roads has proved > invaluable in my search. > > I have sent a photo to Michael Johnson and requested he post it on > Rocks from Space Picture of the Day for July 4. > > I would like to also take this opportunity to extend my very best > wishes to each and every one of you for a very pleasant holiday. > Happy 4th of July! > > Jack Schrader > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > _________________________________________________________________ > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From eric at meteoritesusa.com Sat Jul 4 17:52:25 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 14:52:25 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: July 4th Meteorite Sale - 24 Hours Only Message-ID: <4A4FCF19.7030108@meteoritesusa.com> Dear Customers, Happy 4th of July Weekend!!! In the patriotic spirit of America and today's special meaning, what better time than to offer all my customers, and all you new customers who are about to purchase, the ability to save some money in these hard economic times. That's why over the last few days I've gone through all of my 120+ auctions and store listings and dropped the Buy-It-Now prices by as much as 50% to 70% on select items, prices are marked. Also, every meteorite on this sale comes with free shipping inside the USA. In addition to the previously mentioned price drop, you can take another 10% Off your whole order if you order within the next 24 hours. (NOTE: This excludes items that are already "marked" 10% off. On these items, the Special Bulk Pricing applies) Auctions & Store Items: http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/freel3orn Special Bulk Pricing: All Orders above ----------------------- $250 = Additional 5% Off $500 = Additional 8% Off $750 = Additional 10% Off $1000+ = Additional 12% Off ----------------------- So if your order is $250 you will receive a total discount of 15% off the marked price. (i.e 10% Off plus Bulk discount of 5% equals 15% total discount) You get free shipping to, so you save an additional $5 to $15 depending on how much you order! $500 orders get 18% off, and so forth... Hope this helps you guys out a bit and I hope I don't lose too much money on this deal. Oh yeah one more thing... Dealers who haven't signed up on my wholesale list yet, I encourage you to do so. You'll be entitled to wholesale pricing and receive my wholesale pricelist which includes a three tiered pricing structure. Minimums apply, and you must be a registered business or sole proprietorship and supply your Tax ID Certificate or business license. http://www.meteoritesusa.com/wholesale-list/ Happy Independence Day All! Enjoy... -- Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA http://www.meteoritesusa.com 904-236-5394 From mlblood at cox.net Sat Jul 4 19:14:43 2009 From: mlblood at cox.net (Michael Blood) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 16:14:43 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ebay pain in the $%$$ In-Reply-To: <558669.2656.qm@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Mike, I could not find anywhere to block someone from bidding - checked "my eBay" etc. Can you tell us less informed people how to block someone from Bidding on your items? I am sure others on the list are interested as well. Thanks, Michael On 6/28/09 9:56 AM, "Michael Farmer" wrote: > > Does anyone know this person? > Ebay name: > > graftonwisconsin > > Beware, a total waste of time. He won a whopping $1.50 item from me, it was > shipped two weeks ago, apparently he emailed me an ebay question, waited one > day and started filing complaints and pay-pal charge-backs, now a negative > feedback. All this because I am traveling and could not answer his question in > a matter of hours. I have hundreds of Brenham crystals, and would gladly send > replacement if given more than an hour or two to respond! > I would recommend blocking him unless you want the same headaches for this > kind of chump-change buyer. > Michael Farmer > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From jnbran at verizon.net Sat Jul 4 19:21:58 2009 From: jnbran at verizon.net (JASON PHILLIPS) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:21:58 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: 100 kg Brenham Pallasite on eBay In-Reply-To: <4A4FCF19.7030108@meteoritesusa.com> References: <4A4FCF19.7030108@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: <0F461F22BF224538A6D55FDF51CB2F61@AcerPC> Hello List, I have placed my 100 kg (220 pound) Brenham pallasite on eBay again this time with the best offer option. It comes with a letter of authenticity from Steve Arnold, in situ pictures of finder Dr. Ebel (American Museum of Natural History) and Steve retrieving it, and a dark cherry wooden stand. If you are interested in discussing this specimen please contact me. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260441133712&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME%3AL%3ALCA%3AUS%3A1123&salenotsupported Take Care, Jason Phillips Rocks from Heaven www.rocksfromheaven.com From nuuska at dlc.fi Sat Jul 4 19:25:25 2009 From: nuuska at dlc.fi (Pekka Savolainen) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 02:25:25 +0300 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ebay pain in the $%$$ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4FE4E5.7090508@dlc.fi> well, I?m not Mike, but anyway; http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/manage_bidders_ov.html#block best, pekka s Michael Blood kirjoitti: > Hi Mike, > I could not find anywhere to block someone from bidding - checked > "my eBay" etc. > Can you tell us less informed people how to block someone from > Bidding on your items? I am sure others on the list are interested as well. > Thanks, Michael > > > On 6/28/09 9:56 AM, "Michael Farmer" wrote: > > >> Does anyone know this person? >> Ebay name: >> >> graftonwisconsin >> >> Beware, a total waste of time. He won a whopping $1.50 item from me, it was >> shipped two weeks ago, apparently he emailed me an ebay question, waited one >> day and started filing complaints and pay-pal charge-backs, now a negative >> feedback. All this because I am traveling and could not answer his question in >> a matter of hours. I have hundreds of Brenham crystals, and would gladly send >> replacement if given more than an hour or two to respond! >> I would recommend blocking him unless you want the same headaches for this >> kind of chump-change buyer. >> Michael Farmer >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.386 / Virus Database: 270.13.3/2217 - Release Date: 07/03/09 18:11:00 > > -- Pekka Savolainen Solar Gems Jokiharjuntie 4 FI-71330 Rasala FINLAND member of IMCA #5776 www.imca.cc From mlblood at cox.net Sat Jul 4 19:33:44 2009 From: mlblood at cox.net (Michael Blood) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 16:33:44 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Looking for validation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all, Several days ago someone posted me asking if I had done business with a specific person over seas. Unfortunately I have lost his post - I have spent Over an hr looking for it without success. So, if this Dealer is reading the list please post me again and I Will send you the info. Thanks, Michael From mlblood at cox.net Sat Jul 4 20:10:57 2009 From: mlblood at cox.net (Michael Blood) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 17:10:57 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Mexico Doug In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mexico Doug, Please contact me. Sorry, all others.... Michael From beardownbob at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 20:14:28 2009 From: beardownbob at gmail.com (Bob Holmes) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 17:14:28 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Richard Norton memorial Message-ID: <2bc48ad00907041714q2d213866tcf7e352665d34135@mail.gmail.com> I'm posting this on behalf of Dave Mouat. Dear Listees Last Sunday, I had the honor to pay tribute to a man I have known for more than a third of a century (that's right: over 33 years, I was a young Prof at the U of AZ and he was a young but slightly older person who was talking about the desirability of a planetarium at the UofA). I later found out that he was also a faculty (earlier) at the place I now work: the Desert Research Institute of the Nevada System of Higher Education. Quite a coincidence. The Memorial for Richard took place at the home of Dorothy Norton in Bend, Oregon, where they had lived for over 20 years (and a beautiful home it is). Dorothy had asked me to say something about Richard, the scientist and meteoriticist. I borrowed a couple of pieces from his collection and augmented them with some of my own. I added anecdotes about Richard's passion and dedication as a scientist (somewhat of a rarity as a lot of us plod through our work rather than tackle it with the fervor and enthusiasm of a post doc). I also mentioned how Richard had argued with the serious research community involved with meteorites that the hobby had added material for researchers not taken it away from them (of course, this is still a bit controversial). I mentioned the articles and explanations that Richard patiently gave us. There were no people at the Memorial who knew him as a scientist save for a neurologist, they were mostly music lovers, a side of Richard that most of the meteorite community was not aware, and the gathering was astounded to hear how we (and you) regarded him. I think the one thing that was so special was a book of contributions of special memories from you Listees that someone decided to print out on heavy paper as a lasting testiment for Dorothy to treasure and cherish. Even the gathering there was moved by the words that many of you wrote. I am honored and proud to be among you. In fond memory of Richard Dave From minador at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 21:20:32 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 18:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting Message-ID: <701463.30733.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> Yeah, rattlers come out, and sometimes they don't rattle until you step on them... But it beats the heat. ;-) Be sure to wear boots & have fun! --- On Sat, 7/4/09, al mitt wrote: > From: al mitt > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting > To: "Erik Fisler" , "meteorite-list" > Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 2:47 AM > Hi Erik and all, > > Don't the snakes come out at night and warm themselves on > the still toasty > rocks?? > > --AL Mitterling > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Erik Fisler" > To: "meteorite-list" > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:17 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting > > > > > > The heat isn't that bad at night. It's only 90 degrees > at night with > > a warm breeze at franconia.? Just strap a > maglight to your detector > > and grab a head light and 20 AA batteries and your > good. > > I've found that I find more at night because I wander > aimlessly > > instead of hitting the spots that look good to > everyone else who > > walks through the field.? We hunted till 9am when > it got up to 110 degrees > > and then we drove to Needles and slept in an ice cold > motel room > > till the sun set before grabbing? "breakfast" and > heading back out to > > Franconia. > > > > Here is a video of a night hunt we did about a year > ago. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5gDa6dJ5Ac > > > > [Erik] > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Sat Jul 4 21:29:39 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 18:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Mars Odyssey THEMIS Images: June 29 - July 3, 2009 Message-ID: <200907050129.n651Tdd1009655@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> MARS ODYSSEY THEMIS IMAGES June 29 - July 3, 2009 o Lycus Sulci (Released 29 June 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20090629a o Lipik Channels (Released 30 June 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20090630a o Polar Dune (Released 01 July 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20090701a o Dunes (Released 02 July 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20090702a o Dust Devil Tracks (Released 03 July 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20090703a All of the THEMIS images are archived here: http://themis.asu.edu/latest.html NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory manages the 2001 Mars Odyssey mission for NASA's Office of Space Science, Washington, D.C. The Thermal Emission Imaging System (THEMIS) was developed by Arizona State University, Tempe, in co.oration with Raytheon Santa Barbara Remote Sensing. The THEMIS investigation is led by Dr. Philip Christensen at Arizona State University. Lockheed Martin Astronautics, Denver, is the prime contractor for the Odyssey project, and developed and built the orbiter. Mission operations are conducted jointly from Lockheed Martin and from JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena. From mccartney at blackbearddata.com Sat Jul 4 21:34:39 2009 From: mccartney at blackbearddata.com (McCartney Taylor) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:34:39 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] test Message-ID: <290de768b1cd409f8954dd484f001647@ucv1.vhostdns.com> Test #3 From meteorites at online.nl Sat Jul 4 21:54:48 2009 From: meteorites at online.nl (Jan Bartels) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 03:54:48 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] [AD] 2 super oriented Tazas (NWA 859) Message-ID: <9018227AF7F44364BE3D43FC606C680B@laptop> Dear listoids, Sorry for a double "once a week ad" but this you just have to see. http://cgi.ebay.com/NWA-859-TAZA-131-grams-Oriented-meteorite_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a1Q7c66Q3a2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem27a9df1adeQQitemZ170353695454QQptZLHQ5fDefaultDomainQ5f0QQsalenotsupportedAnd here:http://cgi.ebay.com/Super-Oriented-Taza-NWA-859-Meteorite_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a1Q7c66Q3a2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem27a9df2dbaQQitemZ170353700282QQptZLHQ5fDefaultDomainQ5f0QQsalenotsupportedEmail for further questions,Have fun looking.Greetings,JanHolland.IMCA 9833 From meteorites at online.nl Sat Jul 4 22:07:22 2009 From: meteorites at online.nl (Jan Bartels) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 04:07:22 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] Second Taza link..... Message-ID: <1BEA435610DF498EAB021C18342A0506@laptop> Sorry....something went wrong with the second link.... http://cgi.ebay.com/Super-Oriented-Taza-NWA-859-Meteorite_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a1Q7c66Q3a2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem27a9df2dbaQQitemZ170353700282QQptZLHQ5fDefaultDomainQ5f0QQsalenotsupported Enjoy, Jan From cdtucson at cox.net Sat Jul 4 22:49:44 2009 From: cdtucson at cox.net (cdtucson at cox.net) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 19:49:44 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20090704224944.08G1W.181385.imail@fed1rmwml42> Rob, List, No I have no idea . I read a blog that all everyone said was that they saw it fall from west to east and these reports were from Tubac to Sierra vista. This told me it must be south east of Sierra vista but I drove around all day today and did not see any evidence of material or any hunters so, I have no idea where they are. I wish I did. I am going to ask the list right now if anyone wants to say where they are looking. East of Tumacocori I-19ish??? Thanks Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza IMCA 5829 Meteoritemax ---- Rob Wesel wrote: > Hello Carl > > Do you have some idea just where to look? Jack's post did not say where. > > Rob Wesel > www.nakhladogmeteorites.com > www.facebook.com/nakhladog > ------------------ > We are the music makers... > and we are the dreamers of the dreams. > Willy Wonka, 1971 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; > Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 9:26 AM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall > > > > Darren, That was Too funny. LOL. Thanks for that and congrats to jack. I > > will see you out there. > > -- > > Carl or Debbie Esparza > > IMCA 5829 > > Meteoritemax > > > > > > ---- Darren Garrison wrote: > >> On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 07:15:02 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > >> > >> >Jack Schrader is a great meteorite hunter, > >> >has hundreds of meteorite pieces under his belt > >> > >> No, he is just happy to see you. > >> > >> >I am so happy that Arizona has it's first recovered fall in 97 years, > >> >and it is close to my house! I know where my 4th will be spent, and the > >> >5th and 6th ..................................... > >> > > >> > >> Maybe this search will be less of a circus with no media coverage (yet). > >> ______________________________________________ > >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From bristolia at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 22:51:30 2009 From: bristolia at yahoo.com (Paul) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 19:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] HOT Meteorite Hunting and "Spam" in Hawaii Message-ID: <143399.71171.qm@web36204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> bernd.pauli wrote ?Thanks, folks, for all those details re: spam. Very much appreciated!? Given the remarks made about SPAM on this list, people here might be interested in knowing that SPAM is regarded as ?soul food? in Hawaii. They even have ?Spam sushi.? Go look at 1. ?Hawaiian soul food? at; http://www.viamagazine.com/top_stories/articles/hawaiian_food05.asp 2. Hawaii Celebrates Waikiki SPAM JAM(R) Festival http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS37502+26-Apr-2009+PRN20090426 3. Hawaii's 2nd Spam Cookbook http://www.besspress.com/productdetails.cfm?PC=170 and 4. Hawaii: The Spam Archipelago http://www.flakmag.com/misc/spam.html Yours, Paul H. From bristolia at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 22:57:56 2009 From: bristolia at yahoo.com (Paul) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 19:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Plagiarism Sleuths and Duplicate Publications Message-ID: <360278.85403.qm@web36206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The below paper in Science, I found interesting. Couzin-Frankel, J., and J. Grom, 2009, . Science. vol. 324, no. 5930, pp. 1004-1007, DOI: 10.1126/science.324_1004 http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/324/5930/1004 Some related web pages and publications are: Deja Vu: a Database of Highly Similar and Duplicate Citations http://spore.swmed.edu/dejavu/ Errami, M., H. Garner, N. Rifai, P. M. Bossuyt, and D. E. Bruns, 2008, Identifying Duplicate Publications: Primum non Nocere. Clinical Chemistry. vol. 54, pp. 777-778. http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/extract/54/5/777 Errami , M., J. M. Hicks , W. Fisher, D. Trusty, J. D. Wren, T. C. Long, and H, R. Garner, 2008, D?j? vu?A study of duplicate citations in Medline. Bioinformatics. vol. 24, no. 2, pp. 243-249; doi:10.1093/bioinformatics/btm574 http://bioinformatics.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/24/2/243 Errami, M., and H. Garner, 2008, Commentary, A tale of two citations. Nature. vol. 451, pp. 397-399 doi:10.1038/451397a http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v451/n7177/full/451397a.html eTBLAST http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETBLAST Yours, Paul H. From mccartney at blackbearddata.com Sat Jul 4 23:20:44 2009 From: mccartney at blackbearddata.com (McCartney Taylor) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 22:20:44 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Video of New Ash Creek Find Message-ID: <8f7ea30e44ab46e9805dd924beff164a@ucv1.vhostdns.com> I got a call from a West local who found 'dozens' of meteorites. I doubted it and asked for pictures. As expected, all were junk terrestrials...all but one. I then met him, he's an older gentleman and had stories of some of the rocks he found years ago and some he found after the fall. He swears up and down the one meteorite he found was in 1957. But I looked at it, then cut it open. Looks just like a Ash Creek inside and out. So I suspect he got confused as to when he found which stone. Does anyone see anything that makes you think this is not an Ash Creek? 225 grams. Here's the video (make sure you choose "HD" for hi res) of the stone before and after cutting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZbgCSSaAEw Oh, and anyone who wants a slice, let me know. From meteoritehunter at comcast.net Sat Jul 4 23:24:49 2009 From: meteoritehunter at comcast.net (Michael Farmer) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 20:24:49 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall In-Reply-To: <20090704224944.08G1W.181385.imail@fed1rmwml42> References: <20090704224944.08G1W.181385.imail@fed1rmwml42> Message-ID: <5FD40D3B-6C17-4C5E-A74A-FBF8996C3021@comcast.net> Location is not being released yet to prevent free for all like we saw in west. No agriculture to stones are safe. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone Michael On Jul 4, 2009, at 7:49 PM, wrote: > Rob, List, > No I have no idea . I read a blog that all everyone said was that > they saw it fall from west to east and these reports were from Tubac > to Sierra vista. This told me it must be south east of Sierra vista > but I drove around all day today and did not see any evidence of > material or any hunters so, I have no idea where they are. I wish I > did. I am going to ask the list right now if anyone wants to say > where they are looking. East of Tumacocori I-19ish??? Thanks Carl > -- > Carl or Debbie Esparza > IMCA 5829 > Meteoritemax > > > ---- Rob Wesel wrote: >> Hello Carl >> >> Do you have some idea just where to look? Jack's post did not say >> where. >> >> Rob Wesel >> www.nakhladogmeteorites.com >> www.facebook.com/nakhladog >> ------------------ >> We are the music makers... >> and we are the dreamers of the dreams. >> Willy Wonka, 1971 >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: ; >> Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 9:26 AM >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall >> >> >>> Darren, That was Too funny. LOL. Thanks for that and congrats to >>> jack. I >>> will see you out there. >>> -- >>> Carl or Debbie Esparza >>> IMCA 5829 >>> Meteoritemax >>> >>> >>> ---- Darren Garrison wrote: >>>> On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 07:15:02 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jack Schrader is a great meteorite hunter, >>>>> has hundreds of meteorite pieces under his belt >>>> >>>> No, he is just happy to see you. >>>> >>>>> I am so happy that Arizona has it's first recovered fall in 97 >>>>> years, >>>>> and it is close to my house! I know where my 4th will be spent, >>>>> and the >>>>> 5th and 6th ..................................... >>>>> >>>> >>>> Maybe this search will be less of a circus with no media coverage >>>> (yet). >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com Sun Jul 5 00:53:05 2009 From: SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com (SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 00:53:05 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - July 5, 2009 Message-ID: http://www.rocksfromspace.org/July_5_2009.html __________________________ **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222887319x1201497660/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jul yExcfooterNO62) From mlblood at cox.net Sun Jul 5 04:16:59 2009 From: mlblood at cox.net (Michael Blood) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 01:16:59 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] From "Oz Dog" Bob Walker In-Reply-To: <143399.71171.qm@web36204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I seek to sell the main mass of my Scorpion Bight (Western Australia) specimen for $6000 aussie dollars. Due to export restrictions I can only sell to an Australian buyer and can only ship to an Australian address This one is for serious collectors only - it is the last opportunity for a private collector to be able to purchase a Western Australia chondrite main mass due to legislation vesting ownership of finds after a certain date in the Crown I cannot conceive of any other opportunity to purchase a WA main mass and this is also Australia's fiercest meteorite ! Oz Dog Bob Walker From casper at cooloola.net Sun Jul 5 07:54:20 2009 From: casper at cooloola.net (christopher sharp) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:54:20 +1000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Solar oxygen isotopes = CAI oxygen isotopes? Message-ID: <000001c9fd67$5508d1f0$ff1a75d0$@net> Found this interesting: http://genesismission.jpl.nasa.gov/gm2/news/features/closer.htm from http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html bit of a paradigm shift if confirmed! Happy Independence Day USA From Metorman46 at aol.com Sun Jul 5 09:31:44 2009 From: Metorman46 at aol.com (Metorman46 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 09:31:44 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - July 4, 2009 Message-ID: Jack & Michael; JACK. That is an awsome story you posted to the list,classic meteorite investigation and recovery.Thanks for posting. Michael.Thanks to you we,on the list,along with Jack are the first to view this newest discovered visitor to earth.What a sight to behold.Thanks. Thanks to dedicated and devoted meteorite enthusiasts like you ( and many more of course ) who put a lot of hard work into recovery and collecting, this hobby gets more exciting as time goes by. Great find JACK Best Regards;Herman Archer IMCA # 2770. **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222887319x1201497660/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jul yExcfooterNO62) From stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 12:17:26 2009 From: stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com (steve arnold) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 09:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] bleeding "oozing" nwa Message-ID: <851830.2245.qm@web57802.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi list.I hope all are hunters are finding new arizona meteorites.I have a 400 plus gram nwa endcut that is bleeding ooz.It is small and black.It reminds me of the black oil from the x-files.How do I stop the oozing?? ?Steve R. Arnold From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Sun Jul 5 12:31:53 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 18:31:53 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] bleeding "oozing" nwa In-Reply-To: <851830.2245.qm@web57802.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <851830.2245.qm@web57802.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003e01c9fd8e$1bb8f7a0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> >How do I stop the oozing?? In giving it away as freebie. -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von steve arnold Gesendet: Sonntag, 5. Juli 2009 18:17 An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] bleeding "oozing" nwa Hi list.I hope all are hunters are finding new arizona meteorites.I have a 400 plus gram nwa endcut that is bleeding ooz.It is small and black.It reminds me of the black oil from the x-files.How do I stop the oozing?? ?Steve R. Arnold ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com Sun Jul 5 13:51:19 2009 From: SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com (SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:51:19 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] New Arizona Meteorite Fall Photos Message-ID: http://www.rocksfromspace.org/New-Arizona-Meteorite-fall-2009.html __________________________ Michael Johnson http://www.spacerocksinc.com http://www.rocksfromspace.org http://www.sikhote-alin.org **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) From meteoriteguy at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 15:41:50 2009 From: meteoriteguy at yahoo.com (Michael Farmer) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 12:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall Message-ID: <395798.35891.qm@web110606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Jack and Jarrod, it was a blast hunting yesterday, my bones even ache today. Thanks for a great if less than successful day. Robert, congratulations on that amazing stone, I can't think of a better group of people to hunt with, no BS, no acting, just meteorite hunting. Shauna, I bet we can't wait to see your stone. It was really fun seeing my wife out there trying. You guys are just so great to work with. We are working the strewn field slowly, and as a small team we can keep the media circus out of the picture. No need to cause chaos. Michael Farmer of "Inseki Hunter" From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 16:11:33 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? Message-ID: <46018.95475.qm@web46407.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I would like to go join the hunt for meteorites at the recent fall, but it seems this is being kept a secret location... Is this to drive the prices up? One would think extra sets of eyes and hands would be great, but in my opinion it seems a select group is the only ones who will be "allowed" hunting the field then they will in turn charge $100 per gram, yet again for something that is worth far less. Not cool at all. I know I will not be buying from any of you hunting ever again who dont want to allow someone to tag along for the first hunt they would do. If this is the way you "big time" hunters want to conduct yourselves, it shows just what your intentions are. Money. Greg C. From p.marmet at sunrise.ch Sun Jul 5 16:25:06 2009 From: p.marmet at sunrise.ch (Peter Marmet) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 22:25:06 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? In-Reply-To: <46018.95475.qm@web46407.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <46018.95475.qm@web46407.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <871799a20907051325l58dfaeafjb33d1ff6e1a5edfb@mail.gmail.com> Greg, I hope your post is a joke! Cheers, Peter 2009/7/5 Greg Catterton : > > I would like to go join the hunt for meteorites at the recent fall, but it seems this is being kept a secret location... Is this to drive the prices up? > > One would think extra sets of eyes and hands would be great, but in my opinion it seems a select group is the only ones who will be "allowed" hunting the field then they will in turn charge $100 per gram, yet again for something that is worth far less. > > Not cool at all. I know I will not be buying from any of you hunting ever again who dont want to allow someone to tag along for the first hunt they would do. > If this is the way you "big time" hunters want to conduct yourselves, it shows just what your intentions are. Money. > > Greg C. > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From fuzzfoot at comcast.net Sun Jul 5 16:37:22 2009 From: fuzzfoot at comcast.net (Mike Bandli) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:37:22 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? In-Reply-To: <46018.95475.qm@web46407.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <46018.95475.qm@web46407.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <93AF798A871C47A4B06C745F76284801@Bandli1> Hi Greg, This has nothing to do with price. Jack's team that did a tremendous amount of legwork and labor to recover this fall and it is up to them when/if to reveal any details. As much as I would like to be there, I respect the fact that they earned this fall. I doubt any of this material will be sold anyway. When you work that hard to find something, it just isn't worth selling. Kind regards, Mike Bandli -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Greg Catterton Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 1:12 PM To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? I would like to go join the hunt for meteorites at the recent fall, but it seems this is being kept a secret location... Is this to drive the prices up? One would think extra sets of eyes and hands would be great, but in my opinion it seems a select group is the only ones who will be "allowed" hunting the field then they will in turn charge $100 per gram, yet again for something that is worth far less. Not cool at all. I know I will not be buying from any of you hunting ever again who dont want to allow someone to tag along for the first hunt they would do. If this is the way you "big time" hunters want to conduct yourselves, it shows just what your intentions are. Money. Greg C. ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 16:48:06 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? Message-ID: <554412.89549.qm@web46408.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> In a week or so, we will see another ordinary chondrite at $100 per gram (or more since this is a secret fall) I dont want to hear about leg work and labor when they turn down help from people who would like to take part in it and learn from them in the field. This would have been my first hunt, and I guess I am just discovering reality when it comes to meteorites. If your not a "big dealer" you get left out. Greg C. --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Mike Bandli wrote: > From: Mike Bandli > Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? > To: "'Greg Catterton'" , meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 4:37 PM > Hi Greg, > > This has nothing to do with price. Jack's team that did a > tremendous amount > of legwork and labor to recover this fall and it is up to > them when/if to > reveal any details. As much as I would like to be there, I > respect the fact > that they earned this fall. I doubt any of this material > will be sold > anyway. When you work that hard to find something, it just > isn't worth > selling. > > Kind regards, > > Mike Bandli > > -----Original Message----- > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] > On Behalf Of Greg > Catterton > Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 1:12 PM > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? > > > I would like to go join the hunt for meteorites at the > recent fall, but it > seems this is being kept a secret location... Is this to > drive the prices > up? > > One would think extra sets of eyes and hands would be > great, but in my > opinion it seems a select group is the only ones who will > be "allowed" > hunting the field then they will in turn charge $100 per > gram, yet again for > something that is worth far less. > > Not cool at all. I know I will not be buying from any of > you hunting ever > again who dont want to allow someone to tag along for the > first hunt they > would do. > If this is the way you "big time" hunters want to conduct > yourselves, it > shows just what your intentions are. Money. > > Greg C. > > > > > > > > > ? ? ? > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > From cynapse at charter.net Sun Jul 5 17:33:39 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:33:39 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? In-Reply-To: <46018.95475.qm@web46407.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <46018.95475.qm@web46407.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:11:33 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > >I would like to go join the hunt for meteorites at the recent fall, but it seems this is being kept a secret location... Is this to drive the prices up? > Probably more an attempt to keep it from being the same type of chaotic circus the falls that get press turn out to be-- which always end up with yahoos showing up and making the whole meteorite dealer/collecter community look bad. From cynapse at charter.net Sun Jul 5 18:06:11 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:06:11 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? In-Reply-To: <554412.89549.qm@web46408.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <554412.89549.qm@web46408.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:48:06 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >This would have been my first hunt, and I guess I am just discovering reality when it comes to meteorites. If your not a "big dealer" you get left out. You had the option of doing all the footwork and phone work and driving needed to find the meteorite. You still do. Pick up the phone. If one person can do the detective work to narrow down the fall location, so can someone else. Go find it. From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 17:01:40 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 14:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? Message-ID: <760573.42360.qm@web46409.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Then why not let fellow collectors be included instead of the just big dealers? Is it becouse the collectors are the ones that the dealers will be selling to? The same people that were selling West for $100 per gram are there right now. --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Darren Garrison wrote: > From: Darren Garrison > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 5:33 PM > On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:11:33 -0700 > (PDT), you wrote: > > > > >I would like to go join the hunt for meteorites at the > recent fall, but it seems this is being kept a secret > location... Is this to drive the prices up? > > > > Probably more an attempt to keep it from being the same > type of chaotic circus > the falls that get press turn out to be-- which always end > up with yahoos > showing up and making the whole meteorite dealer/collecter > community look bad. > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From erikfwebb at msn.com Sun Jul 5 17:14:54 2009 From: erikfwebb at msn.com (Erik Fisler) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 14:14:54 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? In-Reply-To: <554412.89549.qm@web46408.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <554412.89549.qm@web46408.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Greg, I would be glad to take you out to some great desert pavement for a hunt anytime. I can't geruntee that a meteorite has fallen there or that you will find anything.I can geruntee that you will learn ALOT and you don't have to worry about part of one of the many "exclusive" groups in the meteorite community. I had many people go out of their way to teach me what they new about meteorites or give me a boost in anyway they could. Jim Smaller, Bill Southern, Sony Clary, Anne Black, John Wolf, Dima Sadilenko, Twink Monrad, Geoff Notkin,and many others have all contributed something to my alfiction for meteorite in one way or another.I feel that I would have to do the same for anyone who has the same hunger as I havefor this hobby. I don't know where you live but I live in Phoenix. [Erik] -------------------------------- Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:48:06 -0700 > From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? > > > In a week or so, we will see another ordinary chondrite at $100 per gram (or more since this is a secret fall) > > I dont want to hear about leg work and labor when they turn down help from people who would like to take part in it and learn from them in the field. > > This would have been my first hunt, and I guess I am just discovering reality when it comes to meteorites. If your not a "big dealer" you get left out. > > Greg C. > > > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Mike Bandli wrote: > >> From: Mike Bandli >> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? >> To: "'Greg Catterton'" , meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 4:37 PM >> Hi Greg, >> >> This has nothing to do with price. Jack's team that did a >> tremendous amount >> of legwork and labor to recover this fall and it is up to >> them when/if to >> reveal any details. As much as I would like to be there, I >> respect the fact >> that they earned this fall. I doubt any of this material >> will be sold >> anyway. When you work that hard to find something, it just >> isn't worth >> selling. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Mike Bandli >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com >> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] >> On Behalf Of Greg >> Catterton >> Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 1:12 PM >> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? >> >> >> I would like to go join the hunt for meteorites at the >> recent fall, but it >> seems this is being kept a secret location... Is this to >> drive the prices >> up? >> >> One would think extra sets of eyes and hands would be >> great, but in my >> opinion it seems a select group is the only ones who will >> be "allowed" >> hunting the field then they will in turn charge $100 per >> gram, yet again for >> something that is worth far less. >> >> Not cool at all. I know I will not be buying from any of >> you hunting ever >> again who dont want to allow someone to tag along for the >> first hunt they >> would do. >> If this is the way you "big time" hunters want to conduct >> yourselves, it >> shows just what your intentions are. Money. >> >> Greg C. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Sun Jul 5 17:20:34 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 23:20:34 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? In-Reply-To: <554412.89549.qm@web46408.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <554412.89549.qm@web46408.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003001c9fdb6$70327540$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Greg, sometimes it's hard to understand, why you're collecting meteorites at all? Arizona is THE meteorite state, ASU, Flagstaff, Nininger, Barringer Crater, Holbrook, Tucson Show, and so many meteorite people living there. So it was highest time, that there after almost 100 years a new observed fall was recovered. It is a happy event! And really all on the list are happy that such a decent man like Jack Schrader had recovered the fall. Now we hear that experienced hunter are at work and they won't stay alone, cause the meteorite felt in the backyard of quite a bunch of prominent meteorite people, therefore we can all be calm, that the maximum of that fall will be recovered. So where is your problem? You want to hunt? Jump in the car and try your luck! Best! Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Greg Catterton Gesendet: Sonntag, 5. Juli 2009 22:48 An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? In a week or so, we will see another ordinary chondrite at $100 per gram (or more since this is a secret fall) I dont want to hear about leg work and labor when they turn down help from people who would like to take part in it and learn from them in the field. This would have been my first hunt, and I guess I am just discovering reality when it comes to meteorites. If your not a "big dealer" you get left out. Greg C. --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Mike Bandli wrote: > From: Mike Bandli > Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? > To: "'Greg Catterton'" , meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 4:37 PM > Hi Greg, > > This has nothing to do with price. Jack's team that did a > tremendous amount > of legwork and labor to recover this fall and it is up to > them when/if to > reveal any details. As much as I would like to be there, I > respect the fact > that they earned this fall. I doubt any of this material > will be sold > anyway. When you work that hard to find something, it just > isn't worth > selling. > > Kind regards, > > Mike Bandli > > -----Original Message----- > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] > On Behalf Of Greg > Catterton > Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 1:12 PM > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? > > > I would like to go join the hunt for meteorites at the > recent fall, but it > seems this is being kept a secret location... Is this to > drive the prices > up? > > One would think extra sets of eyes and hands would be > great, but in my > opinion it seems a select group is the only ones who will > be "allowed" > hunting the field then they will in turn charge $100 per > gram, yet again for > something that is worth far less. > > Not cool at all. I know I will not be buying from any of > you hunting ever > again who dont want to allow someone to tag along for the > first hunt they > would do. > If this is the way you "big time" hunters want to conduct > yourselves, it > shows just what your intentions are. Money. > > Greg C. > > > > > > > > > ? ? ? > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From meteoritewoman at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 17:23:24 2009 From: meteoritewoman at yahoo.com (Shauna Russell) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 14:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: Arizona Fall "a secret" Message-ID: <477943.77866.qm@web43504.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Shauna Russell To: meteoritelist at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 2:15:05 PM Subject: Arizona Fall "a secret" This is in regards to "A secret" This new fall in Arizona is not being kept secret because of money.? Why can't a group of friends who enjoy meteorite hunting and find a strewn field?keep it within themselves?!? Lets take a look back at West, Texas.? Within a day of finding? material, there were so many people tromping through peoples yards it was insane!? (Soon we were getting kicked off of property that we had full permission to hunt on until it became flooded with treasure hunters and meteorite enthusiasts from all over)? Having said that, we don't want a repeat? of West right here in our own backyard.? The material will be recovered, the data in regards to the strewn field will be preserved, unlike the usual chaos that ensues at a new fall.? There are a number of places that people hunt at that are not open for everyone and their brother to jump into.? It's sad that some people have to try to make an issue out of something wonderful.? Like trying to make our group look bad because they can't be involved.? Jack found the strewn field, Jack deserves to handle this the way he chooses without being ridiculed.? Anyways, Robert and myself would like to congratulate Jack on this incredible recovery!!!! Sincerely, Shauna Russell www.ironfromthesky.com From schraderj at rocketmail.com Sun Jul 5 17:35:04 2009 From: schraderj at rocketmail.com (Jack Schrader) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 14:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall Message-ID: <669752.17939.qm@web111015.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dear list members. I have today received an email from a person.? He sent the message to the list and not to me personally so you already know who this person is.? If he had sent the message to me personally, I would have treated it with complete confidentiality.? I feel that it is important to share the information I shared with him with the members of this list.? Most of the people on this list have been involved with the science of meteorites for many years and have already gained the knowledge and wisdom that can only come from years of experience. This list has been very fortunate to have been joined by people who are new to the science and to the wonderful hobby of collecting meteorites.? His email was not sent to be malicious but was sent out of frustration and out of his enthusiastic desire to be able to look for a new meteorite and to actually find one for himself..? These people who hold this intense enthusiasm are the people we need in this science, this hobby. This is the dream we all hold dear, to venture out, find and be the first one to touch a stone that acually fell to earth from space.? I have copied the information I sent to him below.? I hope others who are experiencing similar feelings of frustration at the present time will benefit from this as well. Hello.? This fall is a very rare, a very important and historic fall for this state and for the University of Arizona in particular as the site is very literally in their own back yard.? It is vitally important that the area be protected for only as long as it takes to properly record and document the fall.? I have seen what happens to an area when?the location?is announced publicly too early.? The area is almost immediately deluged and over run with not only the true professional meteorite hunters who are actually trying to do something good and recover the stones properly with GPS coordinates and photographic evidence of the stones in situ but with every treasure seeker and rock hunter and curiosity seeker who could care less about the science but more about simply having something cool to show off to their friends.? This is okay too and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this but right now is not the time for this.? This area is presently pristine and kin to a very delicate archaeological site.? The archaeologists need to do the proper work in the area before the "pot hunters" find it and destroy any information that could otherwise be learned from the site.? My intention is certainly not simply just for the money or the stones that can be recovered.? When you really give this some thought, you will realize that I did not have to tell a single soul about this.? I discovered this remote area entirely on my own using the knowledge that I have gained over many years of hunting meteorites. I could have very easily kept this site to myself and hunted it for months and months.? But the path I chose was simply to do the right thing.? I made a proper announcement and I have begun preparations for conducting a proper search and recording of the fall site.? Please do not worry.? You will get your opportunity to hunt the area.? There will be stones in this area to be recovered for years to come and you will find yours.? And they will be free, you will not have to buy anything.? The area as any area where meteorite have fallen either in recent or in ancient times is impossible to hunt out completely.? I am just simply asking for a little time that it takes to be able to properly record this fall site so the information may be available to the University of Arizona and to any other institutions and meteoriticists in the world who may have an interest in the work that we will be doing.? It is too important to risk destroying the information at this point not only for the science that can be gained from the area but for the generations to come who may have an interest in learning more about the dynamics of meteors and the variety of strewn field types that they create.? I do appreciate your understanding.? My very best wishes, Dr. Jack Schrader From gmhupe at htn.net Sun Jul 5 17:40:11 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:40:11 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: Arizona Fall "a secret" References: <477943.77866.qm@web43504.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Shauna, and the 'Team', Congratulations to all of you! Agreeing with what you said, you all are 'finding it', 'mapping it', 'donating pristine samples to science', what is the complaint from some side-liners?! I say that anyone who has a complaint should to take notes and be prepared next time, learn from the best! Keep up the outstanding work, "Team Jack"!!! Best regards, Greg Hupe ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shauna Russell" To: Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 5:23 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: Arizona Fall "a secret" ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Shauna Russell To: meteoritelist at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 2:15:05 PM Subject: Arizona Fall "a secret" This is in regards to "A secret" This new fall in Arizona is not being kept secret because of money. Why can't a group of friends who enjoy meteorite hunting and find a strewn field keep it within themselves?! Lets take a look back at West, Texas. Within a day of finding material, there were so many people tromping through peoples yards it was insane! (Soon we were getting kicked off of property that we had full permission to hunt on until it became flooded with treasure hunters and meteorite enthusiasts from all over) Having said that, we don't want a repeat of West right here in our own backyard. The material will be recovered, the data in regards to the strewn field will be preserved, unlike the usual chaos that ensues at a new fall. There are a number of places that people hunt at that are not open for everyone and their brother to jump into. It's sad that some people have to try to make an issue out of something wonderful. Like trying to make our group look bad because they can't be involved. Jack found the strewn field, Jack deserves to handle this the way he chooses without being ridiculed. Anyways, Robert and myself would like to congratulate Jack on this incredible recovery!!!! Sincerely, Shauna Russell www.ironfromthesky.com ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From gmhupe at htn.net Sun Jul 5 17:30:58 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:30:58 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? References: <46018.95475.qm@web46407.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8196FACAEBD545CABDCF08D229223B8E@Gregor> Greg Catterton, I am very surprised to hear such BS come out of your mouth! Jack Schrader is not a dealer, Robert and Shauna are not dealers, they all "hunt" primarily. I am disgusted to read your words saying it is "...the big dealers..." this or that. Like Darren said, "Go out there and do your (own) homework!" I know that Jack and "Team" are doing everything possible to get all of the science collected before it gets screwed up by the everyday Joe-Meteorite Hunter. What kind of accurate science has been done on Franconia, etc. NONE! This is a chance to do it right, and Jack and his team of trusted friends are doing it, nothing to do with self-promotion, News interviews or other distracting crap. Let them do their job and wait for the future announcement(s). In the mean time, give credit where it is due and quit making this seem like some sort of conspiracy. Hard work, great reward = results, both for science and collectors!! By the way, Greg C., have you given Jack the proper respect and congratulations for an amazing story of home work and recovery?!! Best regards, Greg Hupe ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darren Garrison" To: Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 5:33 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? > On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:11:33 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > >> >>I would like to go join the hunt for meteorites at the recent fall, but it >>seems this is being kept a secret location... Is this to drive the prices >>up? >> > > Probably more an attempt to keep it from being the same type of chaotic > circus > the falls that get press turn out to be-- which always end up with yahoos > showing up and making the whole meteorite dealer/collecter community look > bad. > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From jgrossman at usgs.gov Sun Jul 5 17:51:58 2009 From: jgrossman at usgs.gov (Jeff Grossman) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:51:58 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall In-Reply-To: <395798.35891.qm@web110606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <395798.35891.qm@web110606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A51207E.2000704@usgs.gov> So who actually owns this meteorite, given that ~75% of southern Arizona is either federal or tribal land and much of the rest belongs to the state? jeff Michael Farmer wrote: > Jack and Jarrod, it was a blast hunting yesterday, my bones even ache today. Thanks for a great if less than successful day. > Robert, congratulations on that amazing stone, I can't think of a better group of people to hunt with, no BS, no acting, just meteorite hunting. > Shauna, I bet we can't wait to see your stone. It was really fun seeing my wife out there trying. You guys are just so great to work with. > > We are working the strewn field slowly, and as a small team we can keep the media circus out of the picture. No need to cause chaos. > > Michael Farmer > of "Inseki Hunter" > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > -- Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184 US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383 954 National Center Reston, VA 20192, USA From eric at meteoritesusa.com Sun Jul 5 18:12:35 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:12:35 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? In-Reply-To: <46018.95475.qm@web46407.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <46018.95475.qm@web46407.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A512553.3060601@meteoritesusa.com> Greg, I agree with Peter and Mike and Darren and Greg Hupe, and Shauna, and Martin, and of course Jack especially... certainly, and most profoundly hope this is a joke. This has absolutely nothing to do with price and everything to do with hard work. You seem to think that information as valuable as that should be shared ad hoc with every person who asks for it. It's not... And shouldn't be, at least not right away. Preserving the strewnfield and recording all available data is priority. The value to science of this fall is absolutely important. Though I can sympathize with your frustration, you'll understand once you get out in the field that it's not about keeping secrets or withholding information out of spite or some other conspiratorial reason. It's simply about the time it takes to properly recover the specimens and collect data that is then shared with universities and announced publicly. Those hunters and scientists in the field work countless hours pouring over eye witness reports, news articles, making phone calls, investigating, interviewing, analyzing video, maps, trajectories, speed, angles, photos, weather and many other things aspects I can't mention. Not to mention wandering around the Arizona desert in July in 100+ degree heat where the normal person wouldn't go. Get out there! Pound the ground! Do the research. Do your homework. Spend your money. Search and recover. Hunt! Walk around in the Arizona desert for 10 days straight with only a couple finds to your name. Sleep in hotels, and camp out on the ground. Trudge through brush and tall grass, rocks, and uneven terrain. Walk tens of mile a day through rattlesnake and scorpion infested desert for days on end. Then see if you want to release the coordinates to anyone who asks you for them. I guarantee you won't! Someone, anyone must earn the right to the information whether they like it or not... It's about science and work. Get out there and do it. Research, hunt, then recover your own meteorites. I guarantee it will be that much more rewarding if you do. Good luck! Regards, Eric Greg Catterton wrote: > I would like to go join the hunt for meteorites at the recent fall, but it seems this is being kept a secret location... Is this to drive the prices up? > > One would think extra sets of eyes and hands would be great, but in my opinion it seems a select group is the only ones who will be "allowed" hunting the field then they will in turn charge $100 per gram, yet again for something that is worth far less. > > Not cool at all. I know I will not be buying from any of you hunting ever again who dont want to allow someone to tag along for the first hunt they would do. > If this is the way you "big time" hunters want to conduct yourselves, it shows just what your intentions are. Money. > > Greg C. > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > -- Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA http://www.meteoritesusa.com 904-236-5394 From meteoriteguy at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 18:14:35 2009 From: meteoriteguy at yahoo.com (Michael Farmer) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 15:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] New fall politics Message-ID: <82409.65635.qm@web110616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Greg, take a chill pill. I know you are enthusiastic and rearing to go, and I will cut you some slack for saying what you said. It is not right though. We are not keeping this secret to sell for $100 gram, buy the way, not one person who sold West for $100 gram is here. I my have sold one stone near that price, but I gave almost as many as I sold away for free! We are not driven by greed, but a unique opportunity to search happily, slowly, do proper work, and all be friends, not like West where hours after getting permission to hunt we were told another team made a better offer and to pack our bags or thrown off land by gunpoint because so many people showed up. Do you think it would be any different here if we announced today? Tomorrow we would no longer be welcome guests on that land but unwanted pests! We gave the green light to allow the news story in West to break, and less than 12 hours later the flood and nightmare began. There is no rush here, no plows are coming to destroy the strewn field, most is in pristine desert, so any stone on the surface will likely be there 100 years from now. We can hunt in peace without competition, backstabbing, fighting, or negotiating. What problem can you see with this? I know if you are not there it is tough, but see our point of view. This may be a once in a lifetime event for Jack and for those of us fortunate enough to know him well. He bought his first meteorite from me, and has hunted on the other side of the planet with me, so he trusts me enough to invite me along, and I appreciate that very much. The science will be done, no stones will be disappearing into pockets and jumping onto eBay without all data being recorded, at least until the followers come. Relax, Dr Schrader himself just told the list that when he is ready, the location will be made public and all will get a chance. Trust me, this is a large area and very rough and stones will remain to be found for a very long time. Relax, bide your time, that will get you an invite much faster than with a public attack Greg. Michael Farmer From meteoriteguy at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 18:17:04 2009 From: meteoriteguy at yahoo.com (Michael Farmer) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 15:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall Message-ID: <384718.65891.qm@web110616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Jeff, that is a good question, it is being worked out as there is an assortment of land, both public and private. We are doing it properly. Michael Farmer --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Jeff Grossman wrote: > From: Jeff Grossman > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall > To: "Meteorite-list" > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 3:51 PM > So who actually owns this meteorite, > given that ~75% of southern Arizona is either federal or > tribal land and much of the rest belongs to the state? > > jeff > > Michael Farmer wrote: > > Jack and Jarrod, it was a blast hunting yesterday, my > bones even ache today. Thanks for a great if less than > successful day. > > Robert, congratulations on that amazing stone, I can't > think of a better group of people to hunt with, no BS, no > acting, just meteorite hunting. Shauna, I bet we can't wait > to see your stone. It was really fun seeing my wife out > there trying. You guys are just so great to work with. > > > >? We are working the strewn field slowly, and as a > small team we can keep the media circus out of the picture. > No need to cause chaos. > > Michael Farmer > > of "Inseki Hunter" > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > >??? > > > -- Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman? ? > ???phone: (703) 648-6184 > US Geological Survey? ? ? ? ? > fax:???(703) 648-6383 > 954 National Center > Reston, VA 20192, USA > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From minador at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 18:17:31 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 15:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? Message-ID: <784758.5471.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> Greg, There's nothing wrong with protecting the areas you work hard to find. I would do exactly the same as them; in fact I have lots of prospecting locations I keep quiet. I will admit that it would be very hard for me to make the public announcement that Jack gave. Since it was found so soon after the fall, there must be witnesses who have some important clues. So I imagine the site will eventually be found by others. It's good that these finders are taking the time to collect data. But the first finders don?t always bother to do that. Our community has a bad name in some sectors because there are those who do just as Jack wrote; they pillage the site with no regard to preserving any information which may be useful for scientists. I think it's pretty short sited to pick up any meteorite without collecting basic data, which only requires modestly priced equipment and a few moments of one's time. If you want to go hunting, start asking around. You'll find quite a few folks like Erik who will offer to take you out. Some will just offer you advice as to what tools, locations, etc. But that's still generous of them and you will find that information extremely valuable. There are many well-known locations that still produce meteorites and some hunters will have no problem taking you there because it?s public knowledge. I can relate to your feelings Greg. I would love find one of these babies and I wish I could be included in the initial hunt, but unfortunately there are just too many folks to invite, especially folks they know well and consider great friends. Once lots of folks find out the location, inevitably there will be those who will start running ATVs all over the place and pick stones without helping to map the site. And that also leads to problems with the land owners, who don't want people trashing the place. After PF, West and other well documented falls, this is a rare, excellent opportunity to collect some important information. I don?t doubt that money is a partial motivation, but there?s nothing wrong with that. I?m sure I?d still be interested in meteorites if they weren?t worth a whole lot of money. I was interested in them when I was young and I didn?t know they were worth anything. I invest a lot of time doing things just for the sake of knowledge. But their value is big attraction, and I doubt I?d invest as much of my time if they were worthless. Where are you living? I?d be willing to give you a hand. I?m in the Tucson area. Happy hunting to the finders and good luck to those who are still looking for this one! --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Greg Catterton wrote: > From: Greg Catterton > Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 1:11 PM > > I would like to go join the hunt for meteorites at the > recent fall, but it seems this is being kept a secret > location... Is this to drive the prices up? > > One would think extra sets of eyes and hands would be > great, but in my opinion it seems a select group is the only > ones who will be "allowed" hunting the field then they will > in turn charge $100 per gram, yet again for something that > is worth far less. > > Not cool at all. I know I will not be buying from any of > you hunting ever again who dont want to allow someone to tag > along for the first hunt they would do. > If this is the way you "big time" hunters want to conduct > yourselves, it shows just what your intentions are. Money. > > Greg C. > > > > > > > > > ? ? ? > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From fujmon at mac.com Sun Jul 5 18:02:12 2009 From: fujmon at mac.com (Gary Fujihara) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:02:12 -1000 Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall In-Reply-To: <669752.17939.qm@web111015.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <669752.17939.qm@web111015.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Aloha Jack, Thank you for your mana'o (thoughts) on meteorite hunting in general, and the latest AZ fall in particular. Not many falls in Hawaii, so I'll have to live vicariously through your (and other hunting teams') exploits. Congratulations Jack, and best wishes and luck to you, and all other hunters joining you in the strewnfield over the next few weeks. gary On Jul 5, 2009, at 11:35 AM, Jack Schrader wrote: > > Dear list members. > > I have today received an email from a person. He sent the message > to the list and not to me personally so you already know who this > person is. If he had sent the message to me personally, I would > have treated it with complete confidentiality. I feel that it is > important to share the information I shared with him with the > members of this list. Most of the people on this list have been > involved with the science of meteorites for many years and have > already gained the knowledge and wisdom that can only come from > years of experience. This list has been very fortunate to have been > joined by people who are new to the science and to the wonderful > hobby of collecting meteorites. His email was not sent to be > malicious but was sent out of frustration and out of his > enthusiastic desire to be able to look for a new meteorite and to > actually find one for himself.. These people who hold this intense > enthusiasm are the people we need in this science, this > hobby. This is the dream we all hold dear, to venture out, find and > be the first one to touch a stone that acually fell to earth from > space. I have copied the information I sent to him below. I hope > others who are experiencing similar feelings of frustration at the > present time will benefit from this as well. > > > Hello. This fall is a very rare, a very important and historic fall > for this state and for the University of Arizona in particular as > the site is very literally in their own back yard. It is vitally > important that the area be protected for only as long as it takes to > properly record and document the fall. I have seen what happens to > an area when the location is announced publicly too early. The area > is almost immediately deluged and over run with not only the true > professional meteorite hunters who are actually trying to do > something good and recover the stones properly with GPS coordinates > and photographic evidence of the stones in situ but with every > treasure seeker and rock hunter and curiosity seeker who could care > less about the science but more about simply having something cool > to show off to their friends. This is okay too and there is > absolutely nothing wrong with this but right now is not the time for > this. This area is presently > pristine and kin to a very delicate archaeological site. The > archaeologists need to do the proper work in the area before the "pot > hunters" find it and destroy any information that could otherwise be > learned from the site. My intention is certainly not simply just > for the money or the stones that can be recovered. When you really > give this some thought, you will realize that I did not have to tell > a single soul about this. I discovered this remote area entirely on > my own using the knowledge that I have gained over many years of > hunting meteorites. I could have very easily kept this site to > myself and hunted it for months and months. But the path I chose > was simply to do the right thing. I made a proper announcement and > I have begun preparations for conducting a proper search and > recording of the fall site. Please do not worry. You will get your > opportunity to hunt the area. There will be stones in this area to > be recovered for years to come and you will find yours. And they > will be free, you will not have to buy anything. The area as any > area where meteorite have > fallen either in recent or in ancient times is impossible to > hunt out completely. I am just simply asking for a little time that > it takes to be able to properly record this fall site so the > information may be available to the University of Arizona and to any > other institutions and meteoriticists in the world who may have an > interest in the work that we will be doing. It is too important to > risk destroying the information at this point not only for the > science that can be gained from the area but for the generations to > come who may have an interest in learning more about the dynamics of > meteors and the variety of strewn field types that they create. I > do appreciate your understanding. My very best wishes, Dr. Jack > Schrader > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Gary Fujihara AstroDay Institute 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720 (808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com http://astroday.net From waltbranch at bellsouth.net Sun Jul 5 19:04:15 2009 From: waltbranch at bellsouth.net (Walter Branch) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:04:15 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall References: <669752.17939.qm@web111015.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <588B4EE773C04C60A06BAEAA5FE44DA6@yourf78bf48ce2> Hi Jack, Cool beans! My sincerest congratulations. Ya'll keep up the great work! -Walter Branch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Schrader" To: Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 5:35 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall Dear list members. I have today received an email from a person. He sent the message to the list and not to me personally so you already know who this person is. If he had sent the message to me personally, I would have treated it with complete confidentiality. I feel that it is important to share the information I shared with him with the members of this list. Most of the people on this list have been involved with the science of meteorites for many years and have already gained the knowledge and wisdom that can only come from years of experience. This list has been very fortunate to have been joined by people who are new to the science and to the wonderful hobby of collecting meteorites. His email was not sent to be malicious but was sent out of frustration and out of his enthusiastic desire to be able to look for a new meteorite and to actually find one for himself.. These people who hold this intense enthusiasm are the people we need in this science, this hobby. This is the dream we all hold dear, to venture out, find and be the first one to touch a stone that acually fell to earth from space. I have copied the information I sent to him below. I hope others who are experiencing similar feelings of frustration at the present time will benefit from this as well. Hello. This fall is a very rare, a very important and historic fall for this state and for the University of Arizona in particular as the site is very literally in their own back yard. It is vitally important that the area be protected for only as long as it takes to properly record and document the fall. I have seen what happens to an area when the location is announced publicly too early. The area is almost immediately deluged and over run with not only the true professional meteorite hunters who are actually trying to do something good and recover the stones properly with GPS coordinates and photographic evidence of the stones in situ but with every treasure seeker and rock hunter and curiosity seeker who could care less about the science but more about simply having something cool to show off to their friends. This is okay too and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this but right now is not the time for this. This area is presently pristine and kin to a very delicate archaeological site. The archaeologists need to do the proper work in the area before the "pot hunters" find it and destroy any information that could otherwise be learned from the site. My intention is certainly not simply just for the money or the stones that can be recovered. When you really give this some thought, you will realize that I did not have to tell a single soul about this. I discovered this remote area entirely on my own using the knowledge that I have gained over many years of hunting meteorites. I could have very easily kept this site to myself and hunted it for months and months. But the path I chose was simply to do the right thing. I made a proper announcement and I have begun preparations for conducting a proper search and recording of the fall site. Please do not worry. You will get your opportunity to hunt the area. There will be stones in this area to be recovered for years to come and you will find yours. And they will be free, you will not have to buy anything. The area as any area where meteorite have fallen either in recent or in ancient times is impossible to hunt out completely. I am just simply asking for a little time that it takes to be able to properly record this fall site so the information may be available to the University of Arizona and to any other institutions and meteoriticists in the world who may have an interest in the work that we will be doing. It is too important to risk destroying the information at this point not only for the science that can be gained from the area but for the generations to come who may have an interest in learning more about the dynamics of meteors and the variety of strewn field types that they create. I do appreciate your understanding. My very best wishes, Dr. Jack Schrader ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From raremeteorites at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 19:25:22 2009 From: raremeteorites at yahoo.com (Adam Hupe) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 16:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall Message-ID: <671939.20870.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear List, A question came up about who owns meteorites found on federal land. Below is a link that can be cut and pasted into a browser that discusses removal of minerals from federal land. I was told by a BLM officer that 150 pounds can be removed a year for non-commercial/hobby purposes. The BLM will issue free non-commercial use permits if requested. I found that they will even mail them to you free. If you are caught removing minerals without one, the fines can be as great as $100,000.00 or a year in jail. If a meteorite weighs more than 150 pounds, it will have to be cut in the field and the rest recovered during subsequent years or the Smithsonian may claim it. The BLM can and will come after you if profits from any object including meteorites are taken from the sale of minerals from federal land. I was told that eBay is monitored all of time and notes taken. I made some poor agent spend more than an hour on the phone explaining what is and isn't acceptable to them to avoid future problems. The good news is that you can keep the meteorites! I think Jack,s approach of keeping the press out of this fall is well thought out. The first thing the press will do is mention there is monetary value in meteorites and then "Gold Fever" will set in. I have seen people do strange things and come up with poorly thought out plans when "Gold Fever" takes hold. People with this affliction are usually the ones that relentlessly chase the press instead of looking for meteorites themselves. They will stab fellow hunters in the back and forget all about long-forged friendships. They are best avoided all-together. Here is a link that will explain mineral laws in simple English: http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo/MINERALS__REALTY__AND_RESOURCE_PROTECTION_/non-energy_minerals.Par.48557.File.dat/sand.pdf By the way, Congratulations Jack, excellent job all around! Best Regards, Adam From cdtucson at cox.net Sun Jul 5 19:46:16 2009 From: cdtucson at cox.net (cdtucson at cox.net) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:46:16 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall In-Reply-To: <669752.17939.qm@web111015.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090705194616.EP9TM.188312.imail@fed1rmwml41> Jack, I am a newbie at this list but I have been hunting for many years. I also have had a few successes. Your success here is no small feat. I have just spent the better part of the past two days hunting with the best knowledge I could obtain. I have tried to do exactly as Darren recommends and you have already done. I too am frustrated not by your actions but of the overwhelming size of the area in which to search. The area from I-10 and highway 191 to north of Sierra vista in hundreds of square miles. I found first of all that most of that area is either Posted State land with No trespassing signs without a permit everywhere or area that does not resemble the terrain in your photos. Yes, I want to know your trick? I have put nearly 500 miles on my car and seen nothing but mining slag. I mean more slag than I have ever seen in my life. My other question is ; what does U of A have to do with this? I ask because when I contact them they have zero interest in anything related to meteorites. Period. They simply refer all inquiries to either ASU or UCLA. They don't even have anyone there that wants to look at them. Another question is who is going to study and do the radio nuclides test that Bernd spoke of? because without that you have no idea if this is from the fall we all just read about or another fall from the distant past. another question is what do you mean about the West being done badly. I read the list and was under the impression that West was a textbook example of the right way to do things. Doug sent the first specimen off right away to Rubin and the rest is history. I guess I am saying that many of us including me would be happy to follow your rules and learn from you and be a part if this and now is always better than later especially with the monsoons here. Many of this precious material WILL be lost if not collected quickly. If you live here you must already realize this. So. I ask you to please consider letting more of us in on this with your leadership and rules? Oh and one other very important point. CONGRATS to you. And thank you for your consideration. Carl Carl or Debbie Esparza IMCA 5829 Meteoritemax ---- Jack Schrader wrote: > > Dear list members. > > I have today received an email from a person.? He sent the message to the list and not to me personally so you already know who this person is.? If he had sent the message to me personally, I would have treated it with complete confidentiality.? I feel that it is important to share the information I shared with him with the members of this list.? Most of the people on this list have been involved with the science of meteorites for many years and have already gained the knowledge and wisdom that can only come from years of experience. This list has been very fortunate to have been joined by people who are new to the science and to the wonderful hobby of collecting meteorites.? His email was not sent to be malicious but was sent out of frustration and out of his enthusiastic desire to be able to look for a new meteorite and to actually find one for himself..? These people who hold this intense enthusiasm are the people we need in this science, this > hobby. This is the dream we all hold dear, to venture out, find and be the first one to touch a stone that acually fell to earth from space.? I have copied the information I sent to him below.? I hope others who are experiencing similar feelings of frustration at the present time will benefit from this as well. > > > Hello.? This fall is a very rare, a very important and historic fall for this state and for the University of Arizona in particular as the site is very literally in their own back yard.? It is vitally important that the area be protected for only as long as it takes to properly record and document the fall.? I have seen what happens to an area when?the location?is announced publicly too early.? The area is almost immediately deluged and over run with not only the true professional meteorite hunters who are actually trying to do something good and recover the stones properly with GPS coordinates and photographic evidence of the stones in situ but with every treasure seeker and rock hunter and curiosity seeker who could care less about the science but more about simply having something cool to show off to their friends.? This is okay too and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this but right now is not the time for this.? This area is presently > pristine and kin to a very delicate archaeological site.? The archaeologists need to do the proper work in the area before the "pot > hunters" find it and destroy any information that could otherwise be learned from the site.? My intention is certainly not simply just for the money or the stones that can be recovered.? When you really give this some thought, you will realize that I did not have to tell a single soul about this.? I discovered this remote area entirely on my own using the knowledge that I have gained over many years of hunting meteorites. I could have very easily kept this site to myself and hunted it for months and months.? But the path I chose was simply to do the right thing.? I made a proper announcement and I have begun preparations for conducting a proper search and recording of the fall site.? Please do not worry.? You will get your opportunity to hunt the area.? There will be stones in this area to be recovered for years to come and you will find yours.? And they will be free, you will not have to buy anything.? The area as any area where meteorite have > fallen either in recent or in ancient times is impossible to > hunt out completely.? I am just simply asking for a little time that it takes to be able to properly record this fall site so the information may be available to the University of Arizona and to any other institutions and meteoriticists in the world who may have an interest in the work that we will be doing.? It is too important to risk destroying the information at this point not only for the science that can be gained from the area but for the generations to come who may have an interest in learning more about the dynamics of meteors and the variety of strewn field types that they create.? I do appreciate your understanding.? My very best wishes, Dr. Jack Schrader > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From countdeiro at earthlink.net Sun Jul 5 19:43:56 2009 From: countdeiro at earthlink.net (countdeiro at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:43:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall Message-ID: <219362.1246837436564.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Dear Dr. Schrader, Thank you for posting such a gracious and honest explanation of the reasoning behind withholding the location of the new fall. I am a "newbie" and I for one needed to understand that "keeping the secret" of a new witnessed fall and strewn field only secondarily has anything to do with "making" money. Our succeses in locating specimens has an enormous impact on the sciences and each new discovery should follow field work protocols. We all will have our opportunities to search this field in the near future. I'm hopping from one foot to the other waiting "my" turn. Congratulations on your enormous success. Count Deiro Las Vegas, Nevada -----Original Message----- >From: Jack Schrader >Sent: Jul 5, 2009 5:35 PM >To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall > > >Dear list members. > >I have today received an email from a person.? He sent the message to the list and not to me personally so you already know who this person is.? If he had sent the message to me personally, I would have treated it with complete confidentiality.? I feel that it is important to share the information I shared with him with the members of this list.? Most of the people on this list have been involved with the science of meteorites for many years and have already gained the knowledge and wisdom that can only come from years of experience. This list has been very fortunate to have been joined by people who are new to the science and to the wonderful hobby of collecting meteorites.? His email was not sent to be malicious but was sent out of frustration and out of his enthusiastic desire to be able to look for a new meteorite and to actually find one for himself..? These people who hold this intense enthusiasm are the people we need in this science, this > hobby. This is the dream we all hold dear, to venture out, find and be the first one to touch a stone that acually fell to earth from space.? I have copied the information I sent to him below.? I hope others who are experiencing similar feelings of frustration at the present time will benefit from this as well. > > >Hello.? This fall is a very rare, a very important and historic fall for this state and for the University of Arizona in particular as the site is very literally in their own back yard.? It is vitally important that the area be protected for only as long as it takes to properly record and document the fall.? I have seen what happens to an area when?the location?is announced publicly too early.? The area is almost immediately deluged and over run with not only the true professional meteorite hunters who are actually trying to do something good and recover the stones properly with GPS coordinates and photographic evidence of the stones in situ but with every treasure seeker and rock hunter and curiosity seeker who could care less about the science but more about simply having something cool to show off to their friends.? This is okay too and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this but right now is not the time for this.? This area is presently > pristine and kin to a very delicate archaeological site.? The archaeologists need to do the proper work in the area before the "pot >hunters" find it and destroy any information that could otherwise be learned from the site.? My intention is certainly not simply just for the money or the stones that can be recovered.? When you really give this some thought, you will realize that I did not have to tell a single soul about this.? I discovered this remote area entirely on my own using the knowledge that I have gained over many years of hunting meteorites. I could have very easily kept this site to myself and hunted it for months and months.? But the path I chose was simply to do the right thing.? I made a proper announcement and I have begun preparations for conducting a proper search and recording of the fall site.? Please do not worry.? You will get your opportunity to hunt the area.? There will be stones in this area to be recovered for years to come and you will find yours.? And they will be free, you will not have to buy anything.? The area as any area where meteorite have > fallen either in recent or in ancient times is impossible to >hunt out completely.? I am just simply asking for a little time that it takes to be able to properly record this fall site so the information may be available to the University of Arizona and to any other institutions and meteoriticists in the world who may have an interest in the work that we will be doing.? It is too important to risk destroying the information at this point not only for the science that can be gained from the area but for the generations to come who may have an interest in learning more about the dynamics of meteors and the variety of strewn field types that they create.? I do appreciate your understanding.? My very best wishes, Dr. Jack Schrader > > > > > >______________________________________________ >http://www.meteoritecentral.com >Meteorite-list mailing list >Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From minador at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 20:13:18 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: Arizona fall Message-ID: <685210.71234.qm@web54402.mail.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Adam Hupe wrote: > Below is a link that can be cut and pasted into a browser > that discusses removal of minerals from federal land.? > I was told by a BLM officer that 150 pounds can be removed a > year for non-commercial/hobby purposes.? The BLM will > issue free non-commercial use permits if requested. I found > that they will even mail them to you free.? If you are > caught removing minerals without one, the fines can be as > great as $100,000.00 or a year in jail. > This is from their document: *** Persons who remove mineral materials from public lands without a permit or contract are considered unauthorized users and in trespass. In addition, unauthorized users may be fined as much as $100,000 and sentenced up to 1 year in jail. This does not apply to the hobby collection of stone or petrified wood where reasonable amounts of these materials are taken without a permit for personal or nonprofit use, provided that such collection does not cause unnecessary or undue degradation. *** I think that last paragraph applies to most of us. Make sure you're doing it for hobby purposes. But they are the ones who will initially determine "reasonable amount". I've met two really unreasonable people over the years who are hard to forget (at least with the Forest Service). But most are great folks. I think the 250 lbs. per year applies to petrified wood. Even if you do have a permit, you can't sell the material, and there are lots of hurtles one must overcome to get it granted. *** The permittee is not allowed to barter or sell the mineral materials acquired under the permit. Before issuing contracts or free-use permits, the BLM must conduct appropriate environmental assessments. These include special studies or inventories of cultural values, threatened or endangered plant and wildlife species, or other resources. Stipulations or conditions will be included in the terms of the contract to ensure protection of the environment and reclamation of the land. *** If you keep it at the hobby level you should have no worries. Make sure to keep a copy of this with you while you hunt and, while most agents are nice, if they try to scare you with the law, pull it out and say you've done your homework. If they're the type who doesn't like people messing around the land, they will say they don't appreciate what you're doing and they'll say they would like you to leave. But they can't make you leave and they will then leave to go about their business. It also helps to meet with some of the agents before you head our and drop their names as you discuss it. It always helps if you figure out the land ownership of the area you're interested in and to familiarize yourself with the regs. Happy hunting and tread lightly! Mark Vail, AZ From cdtucson at cox.net Sun Jul 5 20:22:34 2009 From: cdtucson at cox.net (cdtucson at cox.net) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:22:34 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall Message-ID: <20090705202234.S11JZ.188800.imail@fed1rmwml41> Mike, With all due respect, asking to trust you is a funny way to make a point. I know you are good Mike but nobody without a crystal ball can tell you how long a meteorite has sat on the ground. It takes science for that and I think you know that. I don't mean to sound insulting I just can't believe you believe what you are saying here. Wouldn't scientific proof of age on Earth be better than a guess? Although this area may be considered part of the Sonora desert , it is hardly defined that way based on rainfall. In fact we have the most lush desert in the world because we do get a lot of rainfall. Much more than a desert by definition gets. I believe it is over 10 inches officially but more to the point we have torrential flooding that kills and buries human bodies deep in mud for years before they can be found. Our rain is a serious event and our storms rank with the best of them. So,please don't try and kid us into believing that rain is no problem. I would be happy to help you save these little critters before they drown. -- Carl or Debbie Esparza IMCA 5829 Meteoritemax ---- meteoritehunter at comcast.net wrote: > > > Carl, > > If you can't tell new fall meteorites with their pristine blue-black crust and sheen, and grass embedded in them, then it is time for a new hobby. I know you have not seen more than the one photo but trust me, > > this fall is as fresh as it gets without hitting you on the head. > > Yes, the area is huge, only homework allowed Jack to find the fall site, driving around in circles wont help. You must go back to the beginning. > > Uof A's involvement is between Jack and them. > > West was a disaster, though the initial find and rapid movement to the lab was perfect, the onslought afterward is the problem. > > The rains have already come, so a few more wont change the fact that only the first few finds are still pristine, this is desert, so it is not like they are in Florida. > > Don't worry, they will be taken care of. > > Michael Farmer > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: cdtucson at cox.net > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, "Jack Schrader" > Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 4:46:16 PM GMT -07:00 U.S. Mountain Time (Arizona) > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall > > Jack, > I am a newbie at this list but I have been hunting for many years. I also have had a few successes. Your success here is no small feat. I have just spent the better part of the past two days hunting with the best knowledge I could obtain. I have tried to do exactly as Darren recommends and you have already done. > I too am frustrated not by your actions but of the overwhelming size of the area in which to search. > The area from I-10 and highway 191 to north of Sierra vista in hundreds of square miles. I found first of all that most of that area is either Posted State land with No trespassing signs without a permit everywhere or area that does not resemble the terrain in your photos. Yes, I want to know your trick? I have put nearly 500 miles on my car and seen nothing but mining slag. I mean more slag than I have ever seen in my life. > My other question is ; what does U of A have to do with this? I ask because when I contact them they have zero interest in anything related to meteorites. Period. They simply refer all inquiries to either ASU or UCLA. They don't even have anyone there that wants to look at them. > Another question is who is going to study and do the radio nuclides test that Bernd spoke of? because without that you have no idea if this is from the fall ?we all just read about or another fall from the distant past. > another question is what do you mean about the West being done badly. I read the list and was under the impression that West was a textbook example of the right way to do things. Doug sent the first specimen off right away to Rubin and the rest is history. > I guess I am saying that many of us including me would be happy to follow your rules and learn from you and be a part if this and now is always better than later especially with the monsoons here. Many of this precious material WILL be lost if not collected quickly. If you live here you must already realize this. So. I ask you to please consider letting more of us in on this with your leadership and rules? > Oh and one other very important point. CONGRATS to you. And thank you for your consideration. > Carl > > Carl or Debbie Esparza > IMCA 5829 > Meteoritemax > > > ---- Jack Schrader wrote: > > > > Dear list members. > > > > I have today received an email from a person.? He sent the message to the list and not to me personally so you already know who this person is.? If he had sent the message to me personally, I would have treated it with complete confidentiality.? I feel that it is important to share the information I shared with him with the members of this list.? Most of the people on this list have been involved with the science of meteorites for many years and have already gained the knowledge and wisdom that can only come from years of experience. This list has been very fortunate to have been joined by people who are new to the science and to the wonderful hobby of collecting meteorites.? His email was not sent to be malicious but was sent out of frustration and out of his enthusiastic desire to be able to look for a new meteorite and to actually find one for himself..? These people who hold this intense enthusiasm are the people we need in this science, this > > ?hobby. This is the dream we all hold dear, to venture out, find and be the first one to touch a stone that acually fell to earth from space.? I have copied the information I sent to him below.? I hope others who are experiencing similar feelings of frustration at the present time will benefit from this as well. > > > > > > Hello.? This fall is a very rare, a very important and historic fall for this state and for the University of Arizona in particular as the site is very literally in their own back yard.? It is vitally important that the area be protected for only as long as it takes to properly record and document the fall.? I have seen what happens to an area when?the location?is announced publicly too early.? The area is almost immediately deluged and over run with not only the true professional meteorite hunters who are actually trying to do something good and recover the stones properly with GPS coordinates and photographic evidence of the stones in situ but with every treasure seeker and rock hunter and curiosity seeker who could care less about the science but more about simply having something cool to show off to their friends.? This is okay too and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this but right now is not the time for this.? This area is presently > > ?pristine and kin to a very delicate archaeological site.? The archaeologists need to do the proper work in the area before the "pot > > hunters" find it and destroy any information that could otherwise be learned from the site.? My intention is certainly not simply just for the money or the stones that can be recovered.? When you really give this some thought, you will realize that I did not have to tell a single soul about this.? I discovered this remote area entirely on my own using the knowledge that I have gained over many years of hunting meteorites. I could have very easily kept this site to myself and hunted it for months and months.? But the path I chose was simply to do the right thing.? I made a proper announcement and I have begun preparations for conducting a proper search and recording of the fall site.? Please do not worry.? You will get your opportunity to hunt the area.? There will be stones in this area to be recovered for years to come and you will find yours.? And they will be free, you will not have to buy anything.? The area as any area where meteorite have > > ?fallen either in recent or in ancient times is impossible to > > hunt out completely.? I am just simply asking for a little time that it takes to be able to properly record this fall site so the information may be available to the University of Arizona and to any other institutions and meteoriticists in the world who may have an interest in the work that we will be doing.? It is too important to risk destroying the information at this point not only for the science that can be gained from the area but for the generations to come who may have an interest in learning more about the dynamics of meteors and the variety of strewn field types that they create.? I do appreciate your understanding.? My very best wishes, Dr. Jack Schrader > > > > > > > > ? ? ? > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From minador at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 20:29:14 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall Message-ID: <689913.23577.qm@web54401.mail.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 7/5/09, cdtucson at cox.net wrote: > I guess I am saying that many of us including me would be > happy to follow your rules and learn from you and be a part > if this and now is always better than later especially with > the monsoons here. Many of this precious material WILL be > lost if not collected quickly. If you live here you must > already realize this. So. I ask you to please consider > letting more of us in on this with your leadership and > rules? > Oh and one other very important point. CONGRATS to you. And > thank you for your consideration. > Carl Amen and amen. 1) You're clearly in a Mesquite Bosque/flood plain - some material will be lost in those washes. 2) A much deserved congratulations to Carl!!! Mark Vail, AZ Have Garmin Will Travel From meteoriteguy at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 20:29:49 2009 From: meteoriteguy at yahoo.com (Michael Farmer) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall Message-ID: <452225.65747.qm@web110611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I am not asking you to do anything, I give a crap if you trust me or not, it does not need your approval. I said that the work is being done, you do not need to know the details. I have hunted falls on 6 of the 7 continents, I think I have learned over the last 13 years what a fall is. I also know about rainfall, and as I said, the stones have now been rained on, further rains will change little. Of course we want to get them as soon as possible, but we tried that in West and it did not work out so well. We will try much more low key here. thanks for the advice. Michael Farmer --- On Sun, 7/5/09, cdtucson at cox.net wrote: > From: cdtucson at cox.net > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall > To: meteoritehunter at comcast.net > Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 6:22 PM > Mike, > With all due respect, asking to trust you is a funny way to > make a point. I know you are good Mike but nobody without a > crystal ball can tell you how long a meteorite has sat on > the ground. It takes science for that and I think you know > that. I don't mean to sound insulting I just can't believe > you believe what you are saying here. Wouldn't scientific > proof of age on Earth be better than a guess? > Although this area may be considered part of the Sonora > desert , it is hardly defined that way based on rainfall. In > fact we have the most lush desert in the world because we do > get a lot of rainfall. Much more than a desert by definition > gets. I believe it is over 10 inches officially but more to > the point we have torrential flooding that kills and buries > human bodies deep in mud for years before they can be found. > Our rain is a serious event and our storms rank with the > best of them. So,please don't try and kid us into believing > that rain is no problem. > I would be happy to help you save these little critters > before they drown. > -- > Carl or Debbie Esparza > IMCA 5829 > Meteoritemax > > > ---- meteoritehunter at comcast.net > wrote: > > > > > > Carl, > > > > If you can't tell new fall meteorites with their > pristine blue-black crust and sheen, and grass embedded in > them, then it is time for a new hobby. I know you have not > seen more than the one photo but trust me, > > > > this fall is as fresh as it gets without hitting you > on the head. > > > > Yes, the area is huge, only homework allowed Jack to > find the fall site, driving around in circles wont help. You > must go back to the beginning. > > > > Uof A's involvement is between Jack and them. > > > > West was a disaster, though the initial find and rapid > movement to the lab was perfect, the onslought afterward is > the problem. > > > > The rains have already come, so a few more wont change > the fact that only the first few finds are still pristine, > this is desert, so it is not like they are in Florida. > > > > Don't worry, they will be taken care of. > > > > Michael Farmer > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: cdtucson at cox.net > > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, > "Jack Schrader" > > > Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 4:46:16 PM GMT -07:00 U.S. > Mountain Time (Arizona) > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the > Arizona Fall > > > > Jack, > > I am a newbie at this list but I have been hunting for > many years. I also have had a few successes. Your success > here is no small feat. I have just spent the better part of > the past two days hunting with the best knowledge I could > obtain. I have tried to do exactly as Darren recommends and > you have already done. > > I too am frustrated not by your actions but of the > overwhelming size of the area in which to search. > > The area from I-10 and highway 191 to north of Sierra > vista in hundreds of square miles. I found first of all that > most of that area is either Posted State land with No > trespassing signs without a permit everywhere or area that > does not resemble the terrain in your photos. Yes, I want to > know your trick? I have put nearly 500 miles on my car and > seen nothing but mining slag. I mean more slag than I have > ever seen in my life. > > My other question is ; what does U of A have to do > with this? I ask because when I contact them they have zero > interest in anything related to meteorites. Period. They > simply refer all inquiries to either ASU or UCLA. They don't > even have anyone there that wants to look at them. > > Another question is who is going to study and do the > radio nuclides test that Bernd spoke of? because without > that you have no idea if this is from the fall ?we all just > read about or another fall from the distant past. > > another question is what do you mean about the West > being done badly. I read the list and was under the > impression that West was a textbook example of the right way > to do things. Doug sent the first specimen off right away to > Rubin and the rest is history. > > I guess I am saying that many of us including me would > be happy to follow your rules and learn from you and be a > part if this and now is always better than later especially > with the monsoons here. Many of this precious material WILL > be lost if not collected quickly. If you live here you must > already realize this. So. I ask you to please consider > letting more of us in on this with your leadership and > rules? > > Oh and one other very important point. CONGRATS to > you. And thank you for your consideration. > > Carl > > > > Carl or Debbie Esparza > > IMCA 5829 > > Meteoritemax > > > > > > ---- Jack Schrader > wrote: > > > > > > Dear list members. > > > > > > I have today received an email from a person.? > He sent the message to the list and not to me personally so > you already know who this person is.? If he had sent the > message to me personally, I would have treated it with > complete confidentiality.? I feel that it is important to > share the information I shared with him with the members of > this list.? Most of the people on this list have been > involved with the science of meteorites for many years and > have already gained the knowledge and wisdom that can only > come from years of experience. This list has been very > fortunate to have been joined by people who are new to the > science and to the wonderful hobby of collecting > meteorites.? His email was not sent to be malicious but was > sent out of frustration and out of his enthusiastic desire > to be able to look for a new meteorite and to actually find > one for himself..? These people who hold this intense > enthusiasm are the people we need in this science, this > > > ?hobby. This is the dream we all hold dear, to > venture out, find and be the first one to touch a stone that > acually fell to earth from space.? I have copied the > information I sent to him below.? I hope others who are > experiencing similar feelings of frustration at the present > time will benefit from this as well. > > > > > > > > > Hello.? This fall is a very rare, a very > important and historic fall for this state and for the > University of Arizona in particular as the site is very > literally in their own back yard.? It is vitally important > that the area be protected for only as long as it takes to > properly record and document the fall.? I have seen what > happens to an area when?the location?is announced publicly > too early.? The area is almost immediately deluged and over > run with not only the true professional meteorite hunters > who are actually trying to do something good and recover the > stones properly with GPS coordinates and photographic > evidence of the stones in situ but with every treasure > seeker and rock hunter and curiosity seeker who could care > less about the science but more about simply having > something cool to show off to their friends.? This is okay > too and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this but > right now is not the time for this.? This area is presently > > > > ?pristine and kin to a very delicate > archaeological site.? The archaeologists need to do the > proper work in the area before the "pot > > > hunters" find it and destroy any information that > could otherwise be learned from the site.? My intention is > certainly not simply just for the money or the stones that > can be recovered.? When you really give this some thought, > you will realize that I did not have to tell a single soul > about this.? I discovered this remote area entirely on my > own using the knowledge that I have gained over many years > of hunting meteorites. I could have very easily kept this > site to myself and hunted it for months and months.? But > the path I chose was simply to do the right thing.? I made > a proper announcement and I have begun preparations for > conducting a proper search and recording of the fall site.? > Please do not worry.? You will get your opportunity to hunt > the area.? There will be stones in this area to be > recovered for years to come and you will find yours.? And > they will be free, you will not have to buy anything.? The > area as any area where meteorite have > > > ?fallen either in recent or in ancient times is > impossible to > > > hunt out completely.? I am just simply asking > for a little time that it takes to be able to properly > record this fall site so the information may be available to > the University of Arizona and to any other institutions and > meteoriticists in the world who may have an interest in the > work that we will be doing.? It is too important to risk > destroying the information at this point not only for the > science that can be gained from the area but for the > generations to come who may have an interest in learning > more about the dynamics of meteors and the variety of strewn > field types that they create.? I do appreciate your > understanding.? My very best wishes, Dr. Jack Schrader > > > > > > > > > > > > ? ? ? > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From minador at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 20:34:28 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall Message-ID: <926408.45678.qm@web54410.mail.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Michael Farmer wrote: > a fall is.? I also > know about rainfall, and as I said, the stones have now been > rained on, further rains will change little. > Michael Farmer > Mike, Carl is referring to the flash flooding which will inevitable wash them away. It will happen to all of them that have fallen into washes. It would be a good idea to hit all the washes first. mark B Vail, AZ From jgrossman at usgs.gov Sun Jul 5 20:36:38 2009 From: jgrossman at usgs.gov (Jeff Grossman) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:36:38 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall In-Reply-To: <671939.20870.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <671939.20870.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A514716.40403@usgs.gov> I am skeptical that this covers meteorites, even if a BLM employee thinks it does. Very skeptical. jeff Adam Hupe wrote: > Dear List, > > A question came up about who owns meteorites found on federal land. > > Below is a link that can be cut and pasted into a browser that discusses removal of minerals from federal land. I was told by a BLM officer that 150 pounds can be removed a year for non-commercial/hobby purposes. The BLM will issue free non-commercial use permits if requested. I found that they will even mail them to you free. If you are caught removing minerals without one, the fines can be as great as $100,000.00 or a year in jail. > > If a meteorite weighs more than 150 pounds, it will have to be cut in the field and the rest recovered during subsequent years or the Smithsonian may claim it. The BLM can and will come after you if profits from any object including meteorites are taken from the sale of minerals from federal land. I was told that eBay is monitored all of time and notes taken. I made some poor agent spend more than an hour on the phone explaining what is and isn't acceptable to them to avoid future problems. > > The good news is that you can keep the meteorites! > > I think Jack,s approach of keeping the press out of this fall is well thought out. The first thing the press will do is mention there is monetary value in meteorites and then "Gold Fever" will set in. I have seen people do strange things and come up with poorly thought out plans when "Gold Fever" takes hold. People with this affliction are usually the ones that relentlessly chase the press instead of looking for meteorites themselves. They will stab fellow hunters in the back and forget all about long-forged friendships. They are best avoided all-together. > > Here is a link that will explain mineral laws in simple English: > > http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo/MINERALS__REALTY__AND_RESOURCE_PROTECTION_/non-energy_minerals.Par.48557.File.dat/sand.pdf > > > By the way, Congratulations Jack, excellent job all around! > > > Best Regards, > > Adam > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > -- Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184 US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383 954 National Center Reston, VA 20192, USA From minador at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 20:41:01 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall Message-ID: <6280.86201.qm@web54408.mail.yahoo.com> Carl, I think he was referring to degradation caused by rain. I don't think he considered flash flooding. You're right though, this isn't the "high and dry" sand of Holbrook. These washes will be filled with water and these stones will be washed away and buried, the crust quickly ground off by the coarse quartz sand and lost forever. These are energetic and violent events. Mark Bowling Vail, AZ --- On Sun, 7/5/09, cdtucson at cox.net wrote: > So,please don't try and kid us into believing > that rain is no problem. > I would be happy to help you save these little critters > before they drown. > -- > Carl or Debbie Esparza From cdtucson at cox.net Sun Jul 5 20:44:21 2009 From: cdtucson at cox.net (cdtucson at cox.net) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:44:21 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall In-Reply-To: <4A514716.40403@usgs.gov> Message-ID: <20090705204421.7NORH.189031.imail@fed1rmwml41> Jeff, This area is overwhelmingly state land. It is fenced entirely and at every gate it is clearly posted No Trespassing and entry requires a permit. Very serious and scary signs. And lots of Border patrol in area. I would say that a border patrol passes every two minutes on all of the roads in southern AZ. If nothing else these signs keep law abiding citizens like me out. Is there a way around this? Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza IMCA 5829 Meteoritemax ---- Jeff Grossman wrote: > I am skeptical that this covers meteorites, even if a BLM employee > thinks it does. Very skeptical. > > jeff > > Adam Hupe wrote: > > Dear List, > > > > A question came up about who owns meteorites found on federal land. > > > > Below is a link that can be cut and pasted into a browser that discusses removal of minerals from federal land. I was told by a BLM officer that 150 pounds can be removed a year for non-commercial/hobby purposes. The BLM will issue free non-commercial use permits if requested. I found that they will even mail them to you free. If you are caught removing minerals without one, the fines can be as great as $100,000.00 or a year in jail. > > > > If a meteorite weighs more than 150 pounds, it will have to be cut in the field and the rest recovered during subsequent years or the Smithsonian may claim it. The BLM can and will come after you if profits from any object including meteorites are taken from the sale of minerals from federal land. I was told that eBay is monitored all of time and notes taken. I made some poor agent spend more than an hour on the phone explaining what is and isn't acceptable to them to avoid future problems. > > > > The good news is that you can keep the meteorites! > > > > I think Jack,s approach of keeping the press out of this fall is well thought out. The first thing the press will do is mention there is monetary value in meteorites and then "Gold Fever" will set in. I have seen people do strange things and come up with poorly thought out plans when "Gold Fever" takes hold. People with this affliction are usually the ones that relentlessly chase the press instead of looking for meteorites themselves. They will stab fellow hunters in the back and forget all about long-forged friendships. They are best avoided all-together. > > > > Here is a link that will explain mineral laws in simple English: > > > > http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo/MINERALS__REALTY__AND_RESOURCE_PROTECTION_/non-energy_minerals.Par.48557.File.dat/sand.pdf > > > > > > By the way, Congratulations Jack, excellent job all around! > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Adam > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > -- > Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184 > US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383 > 954 National Center > Reston, VA 20192, USA > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From minador at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 20:46:50 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall Message-ID: <633739.6993.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Jeff Grossman wrote: > I am skeptical that this covers > meteorites, even if a BLM employee > thinks it does. Very skeptical. > > jeff > It doesn't specifically refer to meteorites in that document, but maybe the laws which govern meteorites supersede these regs...(??). It's up to the agents to make a judgment call (and who can afford to fight them in court?). I only hunt rocks... From raremeteorites at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 20:50:28 2009 From: raremeteorites at yahoo.com (Adam Hupe) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall Message-ID: <393153.39537.qm@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Jeff, I beg to differ with your opinion. I talked with several BLM officers and received conflicting assessments. This is where I agree with you. Where I disagree is that the officers entrusted with enforcing the law all stated that meteorites could be removed for non-commercial purposes. I was told several times that there are no laws on the books that address meteorites directly so mineral laws apply. I was told that metal detectors and other locating equipment could not be used in areas that also contained artifacts. In these areas, they would have to be searched for with the naked eye. It sounds that they have considered this issue at length and anybody is free to purse meteorites on federal land. There are some areas that are well protected such as Ivanpah that do require a use permit. My advice is not to take my word for it, check for yourself to avoid any problems. Best Regards, Adam --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Jeff Grossman wrote: > From: Jeff Grossman > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall > To: "Meteorite-list" > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 5:36 PM > I am skeptical that this covers > meteorites, even if a BLM employee > thinks it does.? Very skeptical. > > jeff > > Adam Hupe wrote: > > Dear List, > > > > A question came up about who owns meteorites found on > federal land. > > > > Below is a link that can be cut and pasted into a > browser that discusses removal of minerals from federal > land.? I was told by a BLM officer that 150 pounds can > be removed a year for non-commercial/hobby purposes.? > The BLM will issue free non-commercial use permits if > requested. I found that they will even mail them to you > free.? If you are caught removing minerals without one, > the fines can be as great as $100,000.00 or a year in jail. > > > > If a meteorite weighs more than 150 pounds, it will > have to be cut in the field and the rest recovered during > subsequent years or the Smithsonian may claim it. The BLM > can and will come after you if profits from any object > including meteorites are taken from the sale of minerals > from federal land. I was told that eBay is monitored all of > time and notes taken.? I made some poor agent spend > more than an hour on the phone explaining what is and isn't > acceptable to them to avoid future problems. > > > > The good news is that you can keep the meteorites! > > > > I think Jack,s approach of keeping the press out of > this fall is well thought out. The first thing the press > will do is mention there is monetary value in meteorites and > then "Gold Fever" will set in. I have seen people do strange > things and come up with poorly thought out plans when "Gold > Fever" takes hold. People with this affliction are usually > the ones that relentlessly chase the press instead of > looking for meteorites themselves. They will stab fellow > hunters in the back and forget all about long-forged > friendships. They are best avoided all-together. > > > > Here is a link that will explain mineral laws in > simple English: > > > > http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo/MINERALS__REALTY__AND_RESOURCE_PROTECTION_/non-energy_minerals.Par.48557.File.dat/sand.pdf > > > > > > By the way, Congratulations Jack, excellent job all > around! > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Adam > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > >??? > > > -- > Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman? ? > ???phone: (703) 648-6184 > US Geological Survey? ? ? ? ? > fax:???(703) 648-6383 > 954 National Center > Reston, VA 20192, USA > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From cdtucson at cox.net Sun Jul 5 20:55:20 2009 From: cdtucson at cox.net (cdtucson at cox.net) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:55:20 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rain in Az today Message-ID: <20090705205520.3WCRV.189175.imail@fed1rmwml41> Mark, Ruben, List The way it rained there today I doubt any meteorites remain. It poured down rain. My wipers were going full speed and even non wash areas had enough water to pick up and wash away all small rocks and yes, meteorites too. very sad. Carl or Debbie Esparza IMCA 5829 Meteoritemax From meteoritehunter at comcast.net Sun Jul 5 20:58:31 2009 From: meteoritehunter at comcast.net (Michael Farmer) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:58:31 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall In-Reply-To: <6280.86201.qm@web54408.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6280.86201.qm@web54408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4543AC9D-BBCB-4D60-B6E3-8711D29E0663@comcast.net> We know about the flooding potential here since all of us hunting are from Arizona. Why do you think I sent a photo of us in the wash? By the way anyone thinking of hunting here should really understand how our summer storms work. If you park you car anywhere that water can flow you can kiss it goodbye and your life as well as we go from sand to raging torrents of water in seconds even if not raining on you. Be careful. Flooding has already begun at my house found two frogs in the yard last night. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone Michael On Jul 5, 2009, at 5:41 PM, Mark Bowling wrote: > > Carl, > > I think he was referring to degradation caused by rain. I don't > think he considered flash flooding. > > You're right though, this isn't the "high and dry" sand of > Holbrook. These washes will be filled with water and these stones > will be washed away and buried, the crust quickly ground off by the > coarse quartz sand and lost forever. These are energetic and > violent events. > > Mark Bowling > Vail, AZ > > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, cdtucson at cox.net wrote: >> So,please don't try and kid us into believing >> that rain is no problem. >> I would be happy to help you save these little critters >> before they drown. >> -- >> Carl or Debbie Esparza > From minador at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 21:00:41 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 18:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall Message-ID: <246417.96790.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 7/5/09, cdtucson at cox.net wrote: > Jeff, This area is overwhelmingly > state land. It is fenced entirely and at every gate it is > clearly posted No Trespassing and entry requires a permit. > Very serious and scary signs. And lots of Border patrol in > area. I would say that a border patrol passes every two > minutes on all of the roads in southern AZ. If nothing else > these signs keep law abiding citizens like me out. Is there > a way around this? Carl > -- > Carl or Debbie Esparza > IMCA 5829 > Meteoritemax > I believe you must get a prospecting permit to hunt on State Land. I'd check with the State Land Department. Here's what I turned up. --- Arizona State Trust lands are not public lands such as National Parks or Federal Forests. Any use of State Trust land requires a permit from the Arizona State Land Department with a few exceptions. Permits are available in several formats to accommodate individual, family and group needs. The Minerals Section of the Arizona State Land Department (ASLD) is responsible for mining / mineral activities on State Trust land. Arizona State Land Department MINERALS SECTION 1616 West Adams Street Phoenix, Arizona 85007 602-542-4628 fax 602-542-3507 www.land.state.az.us Details for each mineral category can be obtained from ASLD's Minerals Section at 602-542-4628. **Note: Recreational mining or mineral collecting on State Trust land is prohibited --- Well that last part settles that... No mineral collecting (rock hounding). D'oh! Mark Vail, AZ From meteoritemike at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 20:53:26 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 20:53:26 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - Meteorite Garage Sale Part 2 - Micros, Impactites, Auctions, More Message-ID: Hi Listees! I have an eclectic mixture of offerings this week. Remember - List Members use coupon code "metlist" at checkout on my website for a 25% discount off your entire order. :) A quick shout out - Congratulations again to Dr. Jack Schrader on his recent recovery of the NEW ARIZONA FALL! ---------------------------------------- First, I have some micromounts available on eBay with Buy-It-Now prices : NWA 1877 - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=290328862494 Zag - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=290328862875 NWA 2126 Eucrite - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=290328863724 New Orleans - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=290328864087 ALH 76009 (Antarctic) - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=290328865203 Carancas - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=290328865916 ------------------------------------------------ I will combine shipping on multiple micromounts. In addition to the micros on eBay, I have the following new arrivals available (limited supply) - Bjurbole - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126509/Bjurbole--Historical-Witnessed-Fall-1899--Rare-LLL4_835044.html Ghubara - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126576/Ghubara--L5-Xenolithic-Meteorite--Oman-1954_828500.html Imilac skeletons - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/162319/Imilac-Pallasite-Skeletons_798274.html NWA 869 Endcuts - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126507/NWA-869-Small-Endcuts-and-Slices--Great-for-Jewelry_841510.html NWA 869 Slices - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126507/NWA-869-Crusted-Meteorite-Slice--468-grams_841164.html Sulagiri (Hosur) - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126576/Sulagiri--Witnessed-Fall-LL6-Chondrite-from-India-2008_844937.html Oriented Bullet UNWA - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126509/Superb-Oriented-UNWA-Stone-Meteorite--415-grams_841810.html Oum Dreyga slices (3 available) - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126507/Oum-Dreyga-witnessed-fall--Crusted-Slice--930mg_841118.html -------------------------------------------------------------- I have auctions closing over the next 2 days on eBay - including : Lunar and Martian micromounts, Darwin Glass, Silicated Campo, and Canyon Diablo. Lunar and Martian Display - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=290327877937 Darwin Glass - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=290328027465 Silicated Campo - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=290328027888 Canyon Diablo Display Kit - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=290328046064 Meteorite Toolkit (scale, loupe, magnet) - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=290328119505 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2 DAY SALE (ENDS TUESDAY) - 30% OFF ALL IMPACTITES on my website - use coupon code "thirtyoff" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for looking and clear skies! MikeG -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From meteoritemike at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 21:02:25 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:02:25 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall In-Reply-To: <393153.39537.qm@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <393153.39537.qm@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi List, I was going to reply in regards to governments "owning" meteorites. Instead, I decided to post a non-reply. A victory for thinking before hitting "Send".....! LOL Best regards and congrats to Jack again! MikeG On 7/5/09, Adam Hupe wrote: > > Dear Jeff, > > I beg to differ with your opinion. > > I talked with several BLM officers and received conflicting assessments. > This is where I agree with you. > > Where I disagree is that the officers entrusted with enforcing the law all > stated that meteorites could be removed for non-commercial purposes. I was > told several times that there are no laws on the books that address > meteorites directly so mineral laws apply. I was told that metal detectors > and other locating equipment could not be used in areas that also contained > artifacts. In these areas, they would have to be searched for with the naked > eye. It sounds that they have considered this issue at length and anybody is > free to purse meteorites on federal land. There are some areas that are > well protected such as Ivanpah that do require a use permit. My advice is > not to take my word for it, check for yourself to avoid any problems. > > Best Regards, > > Adam > > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Jeff Grossman wrote: > >> From: Jeff Grossman >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall >> To: "Meteorite-list" >> Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 5:36 PM >> I am skeptical that this covers >> meteorites, even if a BLM employee >> thinks it does.? Very skeptical. >> >> jeff >> >> Adam Hupe wrote: >> > Dear List, >> > >> > A question came up about who owns meteorites found on >> federal land. >> > >> > Below is a link that can be cut and pasted into a >> browser that discusses removal of minerals from federal >> land.? I was told by a BLM officer that 150 pounds can >> be removed a year for non-commercial/hobby purposes. >> The BLM will issue free non-commercial use permits if >> requested. I found that they will even mail them to you >> free.? If you are caught removing minerals without one, >> the fines can be as great as $100,000.00 or a year in jail. >> > >> > If a meteorite weighs more than 150 pounds, it will >> have to be cut in the field and the rest recovered during >> subsequent years or the Smithsonian may claim it. The BLM >> can and will come after you if profits from any object >> including meteorites are taken from the sale of minerals >> from federal land. I was told that eBay is monitored all of >> time and notes taken.? I made some poor agent spend >> more than an hour on the phone explaining what is and isn't >> acceptable to them to avoid future problems. >> > >> > The good news is that you can keep the meteorites! >> > >> > I think Jack,s approach of keeping the press out of >> this fall is well thought out. The first thing the press >> will do is mention there is monetary value in meteorites and >> then "Gold Fever" will set in. I have seen people do strange >> things and come up with poorly thought out plans when "Gold >> Fever" takes hold. People with this affliction are usually >> the ones that relentlessly chase the press instead of >> looking for meteorites themselves. They will stab fellow >> hunters in the back and forget all about long-forged >> friendships. They are best avoided all-together. >> > >> > Here is a link that will explain mineral laws in >> simple English: >> > >> > http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo/MINERALS__REALTY__AND_RESOURCE_PROTECTION_/non-energy_minerals.Par.48557.File.dat/sand.pdf >> > >> > >> > By the way, Congratulations Jack, excellent job all >> around! >> > >> > >> > Best Regards, >> > >> > Adam >> > >> > ______________________________________________ >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman >> ???phone: (703) 648-6184 >> US Geological Survey >> fax:???(703) 648-6383 >> 954 National Center >> Reston, VA 20192, USA >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From meteoriteguy at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 21:04:41 2009 From: meteoriteguy at yahoo.com (Michael Farmer) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 18:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rain in Az today Message-ID: <591304.42105.qm@web110616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Arizona is a big state. Storms are scattered not a drop in Tucson today. I am sure stones are resting comfortably. Quite sure all is well... Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone Michael On Jul 5, 2009, at 5:55 PM, wrote: Mark, Ruben, List The way it rained there today I doubt any meteorites remain. It poured down rain. My wipers were going full speed and even non wash areas had enough water to pick up and wash away all small rocks and yes, meteorites too. very sad. Carl or Debbie Esparza IMCA 5829 Meteoritemax ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From minador at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 21:08:53 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 18:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall Message-ID: <736605.89827.qm@web54407.mail.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Michael Farmer wrote: > If you park you car anywhere that water > can flow you can kiss it goodbye and your life as well as we > go from sand to raging torrents of water in seconds even if > not raining on you. Be careful. And I know you're aware Mike, but for the benefit of the noobs: take the lightning seriously.... From minador at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 21:15:25 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 18:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rain in Az today Message-ID: <646130.95946.qm@web54407.mail.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 7/5/09, cdtucson at cox.net wrote: > Mark, Ruben, List > The way it rained there today I doubt any meteorites > remain. It poured down rain. My wipers were going full speed > and even non wash areas had enough water to pick up and wash > away all small rocks and yes, meteorites too. very sad. > > Carl or Debbie Esparza > IMCA 5829 D'oh - those sheet flows can really move the rocks! We see those here in Vail. Only the huge cobbles are left. But if the terrain is rough at the fall site, the stones on the ridges/hillsides will probably "stick around" for a while... From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Sun Jul 5 21:24:57 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 03:24:57 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall In-Reply-To: <4A514716.40403@usgs.gov> References: <671939.20870.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A514716.40403@usgs.gov> Message-ID: <005101c9fdd8$93fd15d0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Yes Jeff, in a positive sense, cause meteorites are certainly no resources. And else I can't find meteorites mentioned at all there. And if I follow the sentence (according Austrian laws) about the Austrian part of the Neuschwanstein fall, it offers an interesting aspect, which might has to be proven first: There they decided, that the meteorite (recovered 3 years after the fall) had NOT became part of the land it was found on. Interesting, isn't it? Anyway, we can indulge in legal persnicketinesses as long as we want, clear is, that we will totally ruin that subbranch of space and Earth science, the more crude laws come into force or are tried to be overstreched. Because if not private people would pick the meteorite up - like they did the 200 years before to deliver 90% or more of the non-Antarctic finds or falls, who else should do it? With West we heard that one single person from the science side entered the field. Art Ehlmann. Then we have a Suisse team searching Oman and that was it on Earth. Else sporadically some university teams, who recover always not more than 2 or 3 stones, almost all old ordinary chondrites of minor scientific value. Antarctica is fine, but they can't bring the performance the private people are doing around the globe (that Antarcica is 100 times more expensive, one hasn't to mention anymore) and they can't recover fresh falls. If we want such a complete breakdown like in Australia, then we should carry on in inventing more and more restrictions. I'm writing from Europe, where half of the observed falls of the decade wouldn't have been recovered or noticed at all, if not private people would have cared for and where the tkws of very most of the other half would have stayed very tiny, if the private section hadn't added so many. It should be one of the most urgent missions of the Meteoritical Society in London to take care for politics and legislation around the world turning back to a state of reason and to grant that the very substance of that field of science won't be lost. Until that isn't achieved, hunters, scientists and collectors - come to Austria. Gosh, we're talking about meteorites. The most whack and strangest and rarest objects on Earth, without any cultural, economical or natural importance. And of solely scientific interest, where the researchers are glad and happy that people are going out to look for them. How anyone with a brain could come to the idea to make a law for meteorites? So - let's handle the case more pragmactically: Let Schrader, Farmer & Co. save the stones first and the strewnfield data, before we hang them for the crime to have recovered a new pristine fall for science and a fall of historical dimensions for the State of Arizona. Anybody else here, who feels the absurdity the same way like me? Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Jeff Grossman Gesendet: Montag, 6. Juli 2009 02:37 An: Meteorite-list Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall I am skeptical that this covers meteorites, even if a BLM employee thinks it does. Very skeptical. jeff Adam Hupe wrote: > Dear List, > > A question came up about who owns meteorites found on federal land. > > Below is a link that can be cut and pasted into a browser that discusses removal of minerals from federal land. I was told by a BLM officer that 150 pounds can be removed a year for non-commercial/hobby purposes. The BLM will issue free non-commercial use permits if requested. I found that they will even mail them to you free. If you are caught removing minerals without one, the fines can be as great as $100,000.00 or a year in jail. > > If a meteorite weighs more than 150 pounds, it will have to be cut in the field and the rest recovered during subsequent years or the Smithsonian may claim it. The BLM can and will come after you if profits from any object including meteorites are taken from the sale of minerals from federal land. I was told that eBay is monitored all of time and notes taken. I made some poor agent spend more than an hour on the phone explaining what is and isn't acceptable to them to avoid future problems. > > The good news is that you can keep the meteorites! > > I think Jack,s approach of keeping the press out of this fall is well thought out. The first thing the press will do is mention there is monetary value in meteorites and then "Gold Fever" will set in. I have seen people do strange things and come up with poorly thought out plans when "Gold Fever" takes hold. People with this affliction are usually the ones that relentlessly chase the press instead of looking for meteorites themselves. They will stab fellow hunters in the back and forget all about long-forged friendships. They are best avoided all-together. > > Here is a link that will explain mineral laws in simple English: > > http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo/MINERALS__REALTY__AND_RESOURCE _PROTECTION_/non-energy_minerals.Par.48557.File.dat/sand.pdf > > > By the way, Congratulations Jack, excellent job all around! > > > Best Regards, > > Adam > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > -- Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184 US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383 954 National Center Reston, VA 20192, USA ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From meteoritemike at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 21:39:19 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:39:19 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall In-Reply-To: <005101c9fdd8$93fd15d0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> References: <671939.20870.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A514716.40403@usgs.gov> <005101c9fdd8$93fd15d0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: Well put Martin. :) Private landowner first - if the meteorite falls on private property. (large corporations and governments need not apply) Science next - with the hopes that private landowner will do the right thing and donate some of the fall to science. Hunters next - they do the real work to bring the specimens to light. Collectors and peanut gallery last - our dollars provide the incentive for all of the above (with the exception of science) to care about meteorites. But we don't do the field work or the science. I don't begrudge anyone who is out there in the field working this new Arizona strewnfield - provided that they are doing the right thing for the landowners and science. I envy them and wish I could be there too. Congrats again to Jack and company for working this new fall. Early question - what will this fall be called? What is the nearest geological feature or post office? Early question #2 - any guesses on what the type might be? Best regards and happy hunting, MikeG On 7/5/09, Martin Altmann wrote: > Yes Jeff, > > in a positive sense, cause meteorites are certainly no resources. > And else I can't find meteorites mentioned at all there. > > And if I follow the sentence (according Austrian laws) about the Austrian > part of the Neuschwanstein fall, it offers an interesting aspect, > which might has to be proven first: > > There they decided, that the meteorite (recovered 3 years after the fall) > had NOT became part of the land it was found on. > > Interesting, isn't it? > > Anyway, we can indulge in legal persnicketinesses as long as we want, > clear is, > that we will totally ruin that subbranch of space and Earth science, > the more crude laws come into force or are tried to be overstreched. > > Because if not private people would pick the meteorite up - like they did > the 200 years before to deliver 90% or more of the non-Antarctic finds or > falls, who else should do it? > > With West we heard that one single person from the science side entered the > field. Art Ehlmann. > > Then we have a Suisse team searching Oman and that was it on Earth. > Else sporadically some university teams, who recover always not more than 2 > or 3 stones, almost all old ordinary chondrites of minor scientific value. > > Antarctica is fine, but they can't bring the performance the private people > are doing around the globe (that Antarcica is 100 times more expensive, one > hasn't to mention anymore) and they can't recover fresh falls. > > If we want such a complete breakdown like in Australia, then we should carry > on in inventing more and more restrictions. > > I'm writing from Europe, where half of the observed falls of the decade > wouldn't have been recovered or noticed at all, if not private people would > have cared for > and where the tkws of very most of the other half would have stayed very > tiny, if the private section hadn't added so many. > > It should be one of the most urgent missions of the Meteoritical Society in > London to take care for politics and legislation around the world turning > back to a state of reason and to grant that the very substance of that field > of science won't be lost. > > Until that isn't achieved, hunters, scientists and collectors - come to > Austria. > > Gosh, we're talking about meteorites. The most whack and strangest and > rarest objects on Earth, without any cultural, economical or natural > importance. And of solely scientific interest, where the researchers are > glad and happy that people are going out to look for them. > How anyone with a brain could come to the idea to make a law for meteorites? > > > So - let's handle the case more pragmactically: > Let Schrader, Farmer & Co. save the stones first and the strewnfield data, > before we hang them for the crime to have recovered a new pristine fall for > science and a fall of historical dimensions for the State of Arizona. > > Anybody else here, who feels the absurdity the same way like me? > Martin > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Jeff > Grossman > Gesendet: Montag, 6. Juli 2009 02:37 > An: Meteorite-list > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall > > I am skeptical that this covers meteorites, even if a BLM employee > thinks it does. Very skeptical. > > jeff > > Adam Hupe wrote: >> Dear List, >> >> A question came up about who owns meteorites found on federal land. >> >> Below is a link that can be cut and pasted into a browser that discusses > removal of minerals from federal land. I was told by a BLM officer that 150 > pounds can be removed a year for non-commercial/hobby purposes. The BLM > will issue free non-commercial use permits if requested. I found that they > will even mail them to you free. If you are caught removing minerals > without one, the fines can be as great as $100,000.00 or a year in jail. >> >> If a meteorite weighs more than 150 pounds, it will have to be cut in the > field and the rest recovered during subsequent years or the Smithsonian may > claim it. The BLM can and will come after you if profits from any object > including meteorites are taken from the sale of minerals from federal land. > I was told that eBay is monitored all of time and notes taken. I made some > poor agent spend more than an hour on the phone explaining what is and isn't > acceptable to them to avoid future problems. >> >> The good news is that you can keep the meteorites! >> >> I think Jack,s approach of keeping the press out of this fall is well > thought out. The first thing the press will do is mention there is monetary > value in meteorites and then "Gold Fever" will set in. I have seen people do > strange things and come up with poorly thought out plans when "Gold Fever" > takes hold. People with this affliction are usually the ones that > relentlessly chase the press instead of looking for meteorites themselves. > They will stab fellow hunters in the back and forget all about long-forged > friendships. They are best avoided all-together. >> >> Here is a link that will explain mineral laws in simple English: >> >> > http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo/MINERALS__REALTY__AND_RESOURCE > _PROTECTION_/non-energy_minerals.Par.48557.File.dat/sand.pdf >> >> >> By the way, Congratulations Jack, excellent job all around! >> >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Adam >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> > > > -- > Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184 > US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383 > 954 National Center > Reston, VA 20192, USA > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 21:47:51 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 18:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? Message-ID: <597208.19876.qm@web46411.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Its for the very reasons you mentioned that I asked to be a part of this hunt. As I have never had experience at something like this, I wanted to be a part of it and use it as a learning experience. To be told that the location would be kept secret I feel is wrong. I see something like the west fall happening where what is recovered will be overpriced ($100 per gram or more) due to whatever reasons those in the field want to give. I have not been following this thread - I have been busy - but when I found out about the fall, I asked if I could tag along and was told no, becouse the loaction was being kept secret becouse people did not want to get burned like at the west fall. What would you conclude from that? I wanted to join in more form the experience not for the profits that will come from the hunt, if I had found just one, I would have been tickled and extremely happy. Greg --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Greg Hupe wrote: > From: Greg Hupe > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? > To: cynapse at charter.net, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 5:30 PM > Greg Catterton, > > I am very surprised to hear such BS come out of your mouth! > Jack Schrader is not a dealer, Robert and Shauna are not > dealers, they all "hunt" primarily. I am disgusted to read > your words saying it is "...the big dealers..." this or > that. Like Darren said, "Go out there and do your (own) > homework!" I know that Jack and "Team" are doing everything > possible to get all of the science collected before it gets > screwed up by the everyday Joe-Meteorite Hunter. What kind > of accurate science has been done on Franconia, etc. NONE! > This is a chance to do it right, and Jack and his team of > trusted friends are doing it, nothing to do with > self-promotion, News interviews or other distracting crap. > > Let them do their job and wait for the future > announcement(s). In the mean time, give credit where it is > due and quit making this seem like some sort of conspiracy. > Hard work, great reward = results, both for science and > collectors!! > > By the way, Greg C., have you given Jack the proper respect > and congratulations for an amazing story of home work and > recovery?!! > > Best regards, > Greg Hupe > > ==================== > Greg Hupe > The Hupe Collection > NaturesVault (eBay) > gmhupe at htn.net > www.LunarRock.com > IMCA 3163 > ==================== > Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darren Garrison" > To: > Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 5:33 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? > > > > On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:11:33 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > > > >> > >> I would like to go join the hunt for meteorites at > the recent fall, but it seems this is being kept a secret > location... Is this to drive the prices up? > >> > > > > Probably more an attempt to keep it from being the > same type of chaotic circus > > the falls that get press turn out to be-- which always > end up with yahoos > > showing up and making the whole meteorite > dealer/collecter community look bad. > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From bencubbin at hotmail.com Sun Jul 5 21:48:11 2009 From: bencubbin at hotmail.com (Howard Steffic) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:48:11 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? Of Course !!!! In-Reply-To: <46018.95475.qm@web46407.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <46018.95475.qm@web46407.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have been panning for gold in the Sierra and got real lucky this summer. Why don't I just tell you my GPS co-ordinates so you can come help me. Especially since you did half the leg work.......NOT!!!! Take a chill pill Greg, I don't think any of the dealers will miss any of your precious $ Howard Steffic > Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:11:33 -0700 > From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? > > > I would like to go join the hunt for meteorites at the recent fall, but it seems this is being kept a secret location... Is this to drive the prices up? > > One would think extra sets of eyes and hands would be great, but in my opinion it seems a select group is the only ones who will be "allowed" hunting the field then they will in turn charge $100 per gram, yet again for something that is worth far less. > > Not cool at all. I know I will not be buying from any of you hunting ever again who dont want to allow someone to tag along for the first hunt they would do. > If this is the way you "big time" hunters want to conduct yourselves, it shows just what your intentions are. Money. > > Greg C. > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that?s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 From minador at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 21:50:37 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 18:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: Arizona fall Message-ID: <728588.19425.qm@web54407.mail.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Martin Altmann wrote: > > So - let's handle the case more pragmactically: > Let Schrader, Farmer & Co. save the stones first and > the strewnfield data, > before we hang them for the crime to have recovered a new > pristine fall for > science and a fall of historical dimensions for the State > of Arizona. > > Anybody else here, who feels the absurdity the same way > like me? > Martin > Reminds me of that poem Lawyers & Experts. It finishes "And all the famous fight who saw Beheld, with mingled pride and awe, What science breeds when crossed with law." It's law (& politics) - it doesn't mean it makes sense or ends pretty. But I don't see anything happening to them. To me they are providing a valuable service. Only time will tell. From bencubbin at hotmail.com Sun Jul 5 22:00:25 2009 From: bencubbin at hotmail.com (Howard Steffic) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 20:00:25 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? In-Reply-To: References: <46018.95475.qm@web46407.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Eventually the press will show up. This can not stay quiet forever. Then we will see who is responsible for the resulting "cluster" and chaos. Howard Steffic ---------------------------------------- > From: cynapse at charter.net > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 16:33:39 -0500 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? > > > Probably more an attempt to keep it from being the same type of chaotic circus > the falls that get press turn out to be-- which always end up with yahoos > showing up and making the whole meteorite dealer/collecter community look bad. > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 From minador at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 22:13:21 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] OFF LIST -list] Arizona fall Message-ID: <667511.53730.qm@web54404.mail.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Galactic Stone & Ironworks wrote: > > Private landowner first - if the meteorite falls on private > property. > (large corporations and governments need not apply) > Ouch, I work for a large corporation and we're just as liable for any damage or injury caused by/to a trespasser. Why not respect their property rights? They have deeper pockets than small landowners and are at even more threat of lawsuit. I think they would most likely donate any discovered meteorite to the AZ Mineral Museum or the Flandrau Mineral Museum which they have helped to keep open (U of A). This fall is exciting isn't it!!!!????!!! From raremeteorites at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 22:19:19 2009 From: raremeteorites at yahoo.com (Adam Hupe) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall Message-ID: <54594.36261.qm@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Interesting take on all of this, Martin, I just wanted to add a few corrections to my initial post. I stated 150 pounds could be removed in a year. I reread my notes taken from what a BLM agent from Barstow said and they state that 25 pounds a day or 250 pounds a year can be legally brought out. This law was obviously written for mineral specimens that can easily be broken down in the field. I guess if you find a meteorite on open federal land that weighs over 25 pounds, it will have to be broken into several pieces and brought out over a period of time to stay within the law. This is what happens when laws are bent to cover things they were not originally intended for. Best Regards, Adam --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Martin Altmann wrote: > From: Martin Altmann > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 6:24 PM > Yes Jeff, > > in a positive sense, cause meteorites are certainly no > resources. > And else I can't find meteorites mentioned at all there. > > And if I follow the sentence (according Austrian laws) > about the Austrian > part of the Neuschwanstein fall, it offers an interesting > aspect, > which might has to be proven first: > > There they decided, that the meteorite (recovered 3 years > after the fall) > had NOT became part of the land it was found on. > > Interesting, isn't it? > > Anyway, we can indulge in legal persnicketinesses as long > as we want, > clear is, > that we will totally ruin that subbranch of space and Earth > science, > the more crude laws come into force or are tried to be > overstreched. > > Because if not private people would pick the meteorite up - > like they did > the 200 years before to deliver 90% or more of the > non-Antarctic finds or > falls, who else should do it? > > With West we heard that one single person from the science > side entered the > field. Art Ehlmann. > > Then we have a Suisse team searching Oman and that was it > on Earth. > Else sporadically some university teams, who recover always > not more than 2 > or 3 stones, almost all old ordinary chondrites of minor > scientific value. > > Antarctica is fine, but they can't bring the performance > the private people > are doing around the globe (that Antarcica is 100 times > more expensive, one > hasn't to mention anymore) and they can't recover fresh > falls. > > If we want such a complete breakdown like in Australia, > then we should carry > on in inventing more and more restrictions. > > I'm writing from Europe, where half of the observed falls > of the decade > wouldn't have been recovered or noticed at all, if not > private people would > have cared for > and where the tkws of very most of the other half would > have stayed very > tiny, if the private section hadn't added so many. > > It should be one of the most urgent missions of the > Meteoritical Society in > London to take care for politics and legislation around the > world turning > back to a state of reason and to grant that the very > substance of that field > of science won't be lost. > > Until that isn't achieved, hunters, scientists and > collectors - come to > Austria. > > Gosh, we're talking about meteorites. The most whack and > strangest and > rarest objects on Earth, without any cultural, economical > or natural > importance. And of solely scientific interest, where the > researchers are > glad and happy that people are going out to look for them. > How anyone with a brain could come to the idea to make a > law for meteorites? > > > So - let's handle the case more pragmactically: > Let Schrader, Farmer & Co. save the stones first and > the strewnfield data, > before we hang them for the crime to have recovered a new > pristine fall for > science and a fall of historical dimensions for the State > of Arizona. > > Anybody else here, who feels the absurdity the same way > like me? > Martin > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] > Im Auftrag von Jeff > Grossman > Gesendet: Montag, 6. Juli 2009 02:37 > An: Meteorite-list > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall > > I am skeptical that this covers meteorites, even if a BLM > employee > thinks it does.? Very skeptical. > > jeff > > Adam Hupe wrote: > > Dear List, > > > > A question came up about who owns meteorites found on > federal land. > > > > Below is a link that can be cut and pasted into a > browser that discusses > removal of minerals from federal land.? I was told by > a BLM officer that 150 > pounds can be removed a year for non-commercial/hobby > purposes.? The BLM > will issue free non-commercial use permits if requested. I > found that they > will even mail them to you free.? If you are caught > removing minerals > without one, the fines can be as great as $100,000.00 or a > year in jail. > > > > If a meteorite weighs more than 150 pounds, it will > have to be cut in the > field and the rest recovered during subsequent years or the > Smithsonian may > claim it. The BLM can and will come after you if profits > from any object > including meteorites are taken from the sale of minerals > from federal land. > I was told that eBay is monitored all of time and notes > taken.? I made some > poor agent spend more than an hour on the phone explaining > what is and isn't > acceptable to them to avoid future problems. > > > > The good news is that you can keep the meteorites! > > > > I think Jack,s approach of keeping the press out of > this fall is well > thought out. The first thing the press will do is mention > there is monetary > value in meteorites and then "Gold Fever" will set in. I > have seen people do > strange things and come up with poorly thought out plans > when "Gold Fever" > takes hold. People with this affliction are usually the > ones that > relentlessly chase the press instead of looking for > meteorites themselves. > They will stab fellow hunters in the back and forget all > about long-forged > friendships. They are best avoided all-together. > > > > Here is a link that will explain mineral laws in > simple English: > > > > > http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo/MINERALS__REALTY__AND_RESOURCE > _PROTECTION_/non-energy_minerals.Par.48557.File.dat/sand.pdf > > > > > > By the way, Congratulations Jack, excellent job all > around! > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Adam > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > >??? > > > -- > Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman? ? > ???phone: (703) 648-6184 > US Geological Survey? ? ? ? ? > fax:???(703) 648-6383 > 954 National Center > Reston, VA 20192, USA > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From minador at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 22:22:16 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] OFF LIST -list] Arizona fall Message-ID: <815615.14985.qm@web54410.mail.yahoo.com> oops, sorry, it wasn't something I didn't want to share publicly, but I felt I've been spamming the list a bit and was trying to cut the volume... --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Mark Bowling wrote: > From: Mark Bowling > Subject: [meteorite-list] OFF LIST -list] Arizona fall > To: "Galactic Stone & Ironworks" > Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 7:13 PM > > > > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Galactic Stone & Ironworks > wrote: > > > > Private landowner first - if the meteorite falls on > private > > property. > > (large corporations and governments need not apply) > > > > Ouch, I work for a large corporation and we're just as > liable for any damage or injury caused by/to a > trespasser. Why not respect their property > rights? They have deeper pockets than small landowners > and are at even more threat of lawsuit. > > I think they would most likely donate any discovered > meteorite to the AZ Mineral Museum or the Flandrau Mineral > Museum which they have helped to keep open (U of A). > > This fall is exciting isn't it!!!!????!!! > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteoriteguy at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 22:22:57 2009 From: meteoriteguy at yahoo.com (Michael Farmer) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] OFF LIST -list] Arizona fall Message-ID: <424801.61881.qm@web110605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> There is really not much need for all of this theory, you don't know where the fall is, or what land it is on, we do. Maps are pretty cool things, they tell you where you are and who owns the land. We are working on it. Nuff said. Michael Farmer --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Mark Bowling wrote: > From: Mark Bowling > Subject: [meteorite-list] OFF LIST -list] Arizona fall > To: "Galactic Stone & Ironworks" > Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 8:13 PM > > > > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Galactic Stone & Ironworks > wrote: > > > > Private landowner first - if the meteorite falls on > private > > property. > > (large corporations and governments need not apply) > > > > Ouch, I work for a large corporation and we're just as > liable for any damage or injury caused by/to a > trespasser.? Why not respect their property > rights?? They have deeper pockets than small landowners > and are at even more threat of lawsuit. > > I think they would most likely donate any discovered > meteorite to the AZ Mineral Museum or the Flandrau Mineral > Museum which they have helped to keep open (U of A). > > This fall is exciting isn't it!!!!????!!! > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 22:25:45 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall Message-ID: <24255.35176.qm@web46408.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Im glad you seem to understand where I am coming from, this was not meant as an attack, just my frustration at not being able to join in on what I would consider a great learning experience. When I was told it was being kept secret, I felt pretty upset at the fact that it seemed to be that something of a high scholl clique only type thing. I am newer at this and want to take up as many things like this as I can to better learn and understand things and thought with the gorup out there currently, I could learn alot while contributing in a good manner. I have asked many hunters to tag along on trips, becouse I dont know how to do it and really want to learn. each time I have been told no. I want to learn how to do this right and if none of these guys are willing to help me out or anyone else who wants to learn how to do it right, why should I even stay in this hobby? Greg C. --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Jack Schrader wrote: > From: Jack Schrader > Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 5:35 PM > > Dear list members. > > I have today received an email from a person.? He sent the > message to the list and not to me personally so you already > know who this person is.? If he had sent the message to me > personally, I would have treated it with complete > confidentiality.? I feel that it is important to share the > information I shared with him with the members of this > list.? Most of the people on this list have been involved > with the science of meteorites for many years and have > already gained the knowledge and wisdom that can only come > from years of experience. This list has been very fortunate > to have been joined by people who are new to the science and > to the wonderful hobby of collecting meteorites.? His email > was not sent to be malicious but was sent out of frustration > and out of his enthusiastic desire to be able to look for a > new meteorite and to actually find one for himself..? These > people who hold this intense enthusiasm are the people we > need in this science, this > hobby. This is the dream we all hold dear, to venture out, > find and be the first one to touch a stone that acually fell > to earth from space.? I have copied the information I sent > to him below.? I hope others who are experiencing similar > feelings of frustration at the present time will benefit > from this as well. > > > Hello.? This fall is a very rare, a very important and > historic fall for this state and for the University of > Arizona in particular as the site is very literally in their > own back yard.? It is vitally important that the area be > protected for only as long as it takes to properly record > and document the fall.? I have seen what happens to an area > when?the location?is announced publicly too early.? The > area is almost immediately deluged and over run with not > only the true professional meteorite hunters who are > actually trying to do something good and recover the stones > properly with GPS coordinates and photographic evidence of > the stones in situ but with every treasure seeker and rock > hunter and curiosity seeker who could care less about the > science but more about simply having something cool to show > off to their friends.? This is okay too and there is > absolutely nothing wrong with this but right now is not the > time for this.? This area is presently > pristine and kin to a very delicate archaeological site.? > The archaeologists need to do the proper work in the area > before the "pot > hunters" find it and destroy any information that could > otherwise be learned from the site.? My intention is > certainly not simply just for the money or the stones that > can be recovered.? When you really give this some thought, > you will realize that I did not have to tell a single soul > about this.? I discovered this remote area entirely on my > own using the knowledge that I have gained over many years > of hunting meteorites. I could have very easily kept this > site to myself and hunted it for months and months.? But > the path I chose was simply to do the right thing.? I made > a proper announcement and I have begun preparations for > conducting a proper search and recording of the fall site.? > Please do not worry.? You will get your opportunity to hunt > the area.? There will be stones in this area to be > recovered for years to come and you will find yours.? And > they will be free, you will not have to buy anything.? The > area as any area where meteorite have > fallen either in recent or in ancient times is impossible > to > hunt out completely.? I am just simply asking for a little > time that it takes to be able to properly record this fall > site so the information may be available to the University > of Arizona and to any other institutions and meteoriticists > in the world who may have an interest in the work that we > will be doing.? It is too important to risk destroying the > information at this point not only for the science that can > be gained from the area but for the generations to come who > may have an interest in learning more about the dynamics of > meteors and the variety of strewn field types that they > create.? I do appreciate your understanding.? My very best > wishes, Dr. Jack Schrader > > > > ? ? ? > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteoriteguy at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 22:25:51 2009 From: meteoriteguy at yahoo.com (Michael Farmer) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? Message-ID: <916692.80404.qm@web110616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Only those who grovel at getting their faces on the news will bring the press. I think Jack already said that he will bring them when he is ready. Anyone else calling the news will not have much to tell them other than that stones have been found. Do that, cause more problems believe me, this will turn to silence from now on. Jack was nice enough to make this public, don't make him regret it or next fall there may be no public news of it. Michael Farmer --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Howard Steffic wrote: > From: Howard Steffic > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" ? > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 8:00 PM > > > Eventually the press will show up.? This can not stay > quiet forever.? Then we will see who is responsible for > the resulting "cluster" and chaos. > > > Howard Steffic > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: cynapse at charter.net > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 16:33:39 -0500 > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizone fall "a secret" > ? > > > > > > Probably more an attempt to keep it from being the > same type of chaotic circus > > the falls that get press turn out to be-- which always > end up with yahoos > > showing up and making the whole meteorite > dealer/collecter community look bad. > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online > storage. > http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteoriteguy at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 22:30:35 2009 From: meteoriteguy at yahoo.com (Michael Farmer) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall Message-ID: <184434.76547.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Greg, you seem to have a good heart, but you are coming off as very nasty. Just go hunt, I learned on my own, most people learn by doing. My first real fall was Monahans, then months later Portales, I learned on the spot, alone, it was every man for himself. We make a living at this, now you are selling meteorites and gloating and throwing sand in the eyes of the "big dealers" on prices. Do you think this will help your chances? Come on, I spent ~$50,000 a year on hunts, and let me tell you, I must recoup this in sales, or I will be living in a cardboard box. Your emails harping on overpriced dealers are not falling on deaf ears. Go ahead, do a hunt yourself, see what the costs are for stones found, and you would find that most in West lost money, even those who found stones! Get over it, take a chance, do it. I am really not interested in training my competition, so I am not too keen to take people with me. This is not meant to be mean, but common sense. Michael Farmer --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Greg Catterton wrote: > From: Greg Catterton > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 8:25 PM > > Im glad you seem to understand where I am coming from, this > was not meant as an attack, just my frustration at not being > able to join in on what I would consider a great learning > experience. > When I was told it was being kept secret, I felt pretty > upset at the fact that it seemed to be that something of a > high scholl clique only type thing. > I am newer at this and want to take up as many things like > this as I can to better learn and understand things and > thought with the gorup out there currently, I could learn > alot while contributing in a good manner. > > I have asked many hunters to tag along on trips, becouse I > dont know how to do it and really want to learn. each time I > have been told no. > > I want to learn how to do this right and if none of these > guys are willing to help me out or anyone else who wants to > learn how to do it right, why should I even stay in this > hobby? > > Greg C. > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Jack Schrader > wrote: > > > From: Jack Schrader > > Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona > Fall > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 5:35 PM > > > > Dear list members. > > > > I have today received an email from a person.? He > sent the > > message to the list and not to me personally so you > already > > know who this person is.? If he had sent the message > to me > > personally, I would have treated it with complete > > confidentiality.? I feel that it is important to > share the > > information I shared with him with the members of > this > > list.? Most of the people on this list have been > involved > > with the science of meteorites for many years and > have > > already gained the knowledge and wisdom that can only > come > > from years of experience. This list has been very > fortunate > > to have been joined by people who are new to the > science and > > to the wonderful hobby of collecting meteorites.? His > email > > was not sent to be malicious but was sent out of > frustration > > and out of his enthusiastic desire to be able to look > for a > > new meteorite and to actually find one for himself..? > These > > people who hold this intense enthusiasm are the people > we > > need in this science, this > >? hobby. This is the dream we all hold dear, to > venture out, > > find and be the first one to touch a stone that > acually fell > > to earth from space.? I have copied the information I > sent > > to him below.? I hope others who are experiencing > similar > > feelings of frustration at the present time will > benefit > > from this as well. > > > > > > Hello.? This fall is a very rare, a very important > and > > historic fall for this state and for the University > of > > Arizona in particular as the site is very literally in > their > > own back yard.? It is vitally important that the area > be > > protected for only as long as it takes to properly > record > > and document the fall.? I have seen what happens to > an area > > when?the location?is announced publicly too early.? > The > > area is almost immediately deluged and over run with > not > > only the true professional meteorite hunters who are > > actually trying to do something good and recover the > stones > > properly with GPS coordinates and photographic > evidence of > > the stones in situ but with every treasure seeker and > rock > > hunter and curiosity seeker who could care less about > the > > science but more about simply having something cool to > show > > off to their friends.? This is okay too and there is > > absolutely nothing wrong with this but right now is > not the > > time for this.? This area is presently > >? pristine and kin to a very delicate > archaeological site.? > > The archaeologists need to do the proper work in the > area > > before the "pot > > hunters" find it and destroy any information that > could > > otherwise be learned from the site.? My intention is > > certainly not simply just for the money or the stones > that > > can be recovered.? When you really give this some > thought, > > you will realize that I did not have to tell a single > soul > > about this.? I discovered this remote area entirely > on my > > own using the knowledge that I have gained over many > years > > of hunting meteorites. I could have very easily kept > this > > site to myself and hunted it for months and months.? > But > > the path I chose was simply to do the right thing.? I > made > > a proper announcement and I have begun preparations > for > > conducting a proper search and recording of the fall > site.? > > Please do not worry.? You will get your opportunity > to hunt > > the area.? There will be stones in this area to be > > recovered for years to come and you will find yours.? > And > > they will be free, you will not have to buy > anything.? The > > area as any area where meteorite have > >? fallen either in recent or in ancient times is > impossible > > to > > hunt out completely.? I am just simply asking for a > little > > time that it takes to be able to properly record this > fall > > site so the information may be available to the > University > > of Arizona and to any other institutions and > meteoriticists > > in the world who may have an interest in the work that > we > > will be doing.? It is too important to risk > destroying the > > information at this point not only for the science > that can > > be gained from the area but for the generations to > come who > > may have an interest in learning more about the > dynamics of > > meteors and the variety of strewn field types that > they > > create.? I do appreciate your understanding.? My > very best > > wishes, Dr. Jack Schrader > > > > > > > > ? ? ? > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > ? ? ? > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From minador at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 22:32:12 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] OFF LIST -list] Arizona fall Message-ID: <911766.19862.qm@web54410.mail.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Michael Farmer wrote: > > There is really not much need for all of this theory, you > don't know where the fall is, or what land it is on, we do. > Maps are pretty cool things, they tell you where you are and > who owns the land. > We are working on it. > Nuff said. > Michael Farmer > Mike I wasn't referring to you. I'm sure you are dotting your "I's" and crossing your "T's" and have maps, etc. I meant to comment on what Mike G. wrote about land owned by corporations (in private, but I screwed that up...). Cheers, Mark From grf2 at verizon.net Sun Jul 5 21:44:12 2009 From: grf2 at verizon.net (Jerry Flaherty) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 21:44:12 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Solar oxygen isotopes = CAI oxygen isotopes? References: <000001c9fd67$5508d1f0$ff1a75d0$@net> Message-ID: Thanks Chris for this significant piece of information. Jerry Flaherty grf2 at comcast.net -------------------------------------------------- From: "christopher sharp" Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 7:54 AM To: Subject: [meteorite-list] Solar oxygen isotopes = CAI oxygen isotopes? > Found this interesting: > > http://genesismission.jpl.nasa.gov/gm2/news/features/closer.htm > > from > > http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html > > bit of a paradigm shift if confirmed! > > Happy Independence Day USA > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Sun Jul 5 22:47:46 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 04:47:46 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall In-Reply-To: References: <671939.20870.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A514716.40403@usgs.gov> <005101c9fdd8$93fd15d0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: <005801c9fde4$252ce5c0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Hi Adam, I was just told, that in US a meteorite always gets part of the land :-( Mike G., I'd rather say: Science always first with a preemption to buy or to get all in exchange for a fair compensation. The height of compensation has to be known before of course, else nobody will come for searching (see Denmark). But naturally there has to be a prologue. Hunters/experts or those on whose heads the stone are falling are coming somewhat before first. Cause else no meteorite falls are narrowed down and no meteorites are found. Ownership - landowner - no idea. If 100% of the meteorites shall belong to the landowner, probably that will reduce the number of finds. There are so many models possible. Desert states with now prohibitive laws due to paranoia but not able or willing to finance own expeditions - give them a part of each find for free. 20% for classification, 20% for the state - and they will get quantities they never dreamed of and which they never could find by their own. Controlled by MetSoc. But let the people hunt! Yep makes meteorites 20-25% more expensive for collectors and scientists, but so what, the prices of the rare types have fallen with a factor 10-50 from the early desert times on (solely due private hunting activities), so we will survive. To protect single huge strewnfields or masses - a matter of course, no question. The Argentines were enervated that the Campos were removed - no problem call it a natural monument. But to forbid all export of all meteorites at once is an overreaction. Someone should tell the officials there, that there exist more meteorites than only Campo in Argentina and that there will fall new ones... I'm not sure that they mix it up with something like a dinosaur. And please, a 100g-crumb half-buried in the soil in the middle of nowhere shall not be called a natural monument. One really doesn't need that much fantasy. Something like that what happened in Australia, in Libya, or which they try to enforce in Oman or Algeria is not wise, cause less or almost no meteorites will end in the institutes and at much higher costs. In fact we simply have to get away, finally, finally, from the so often propagated humbug, that science would have to compete with private hunters, dealers, collectors. What shall this be for a competition? If science doesn't search for meteorites, they don't take part in a competition. There is no competition. All interesting finds made by the private side are readily available to scientists too and that at much lower costs, as they would have to find them by their own, in a larger variety than they would find. (and a part of the finds they even get for free --> classification). Is that a competition? A price competition? All meteorites got so cheap like never before in history. The only expensive ones, where the collectors drove up the prices, are these, which aren't available, cause they are kept in museums and universities. - Hellooo, you already got theeeem! Since centuries the private side isn't competing with the official side but supplying the main load of meteorites, they have in their collection and labs and where they are working on. And that from the dawn of meteoritics on. O.k. they can have a competition, but then they have to enter the competition and have to carry out search campaigns. Then we can talk about laws. But as long as they don't do it is silly. To close the deserts...to me it almost seems like a sullen call of a child in the sand-box: If we are not able to find meteorites by our own, you should neither! Nja.. we meteorite collectors won't die, if we won't have meteorites anymore, life will go on without, but what shall a meteorite scientist do without meteorites? Ouch, that was such a trivial posting, that I'm ashamed of. But I refuse to believe - despite we read that issue still so often in articles - that there are still people in that meteorite scene, who are even more stupid than me. Off to bed. Martin Barriere Dreaming to be in Arizona... -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Galactic Stone & Ironworks [mailto:meteoritemike at gmail.com] Gesendet: Montag, 6. Juli 2009 03:39 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall Well put Martin. :) Private landowner first - if the meteorite falls on private property. (large corporations and governments need not apply) Science next - with the hopes that private landowner will do the right thing and donate some of the fall to science. Hunters next - they do the real work to bring the specimens to light. Collectors and peanut gallery last - our dollars provide the incentive for all of the above (with the exception of science) to care about meteorites. But we don't do the field work or the science. I don't begrudge anyone who is out there in the field working this new Arizona strewnfield - provided that they are doing the right thing for the landowners and science. I envy them and wish I could be there too. Congrats again to Jack and company for working this new fall. Early question - what will this fall be called? What is the nearest geological feature or post office? Early question #2 - any guesses on what the type might be? Best regards and happy hunting, MikeG On 7/5/09, Martin Altmann wrote: > Yes Jeff, > > in a positive sense, cause meteorites are certainly no resources. > And else I can't find meteorites mentioned at all there. > > And if I follow the sentence (according Austrian laws) about the Austrian > part of the Neuschwanstein fall, it offers an interesting aspect, > which might has to be proven first: > > There they decided, that the meteorite (recovered 3 years after the fall) > had NOT became part of the land it was found on. > > Interesting, isn't it? > > Anyway, we can indulge in legal persnicketinesses as long as we want, > clear is, > that we will totally ruin that subbranch of space and Earth science, > the more crude laws come into force or are tried to be overstreched. > > Because if not private people would pick the meteorite up - like they did > the 200 years before to deliver 90% or more of the non-Antarctic finds or > falls, who else should do it? > > With West we heard that one single person from the science side entered the > field. Art Ehlmann. > > Then we have a Suisse team searching Oman and that was it on Earth. > Else sporadically some university teams, who recover always not more than 2 > or 3 stones, almost all old ordinary chondrites of minor scientific value. > > Antarctica is fine, but they can't bring the performance the private people > are doing around the globe (that Antarcica is 100 times more expensive, one > hasn't to mention anymore) and they can't recover fresh falls. > > If we want such a complete breakdown like in Australia, then we should carry > on in inventing more and more restrictions. > > I'm writing from Europe, where half of the observed falls of the decade > wouldn't have been recovered or noticed at all, if not private people would > have cared for > and where the tkws of very most of the other half would have stayed very > tiny, if the private section hadn't added so many. > > It should be one of the most urgent missions of the Meteoritical Society in > London to take care for politics and legislation around the world turning > back to a state of reason and to grant that the very substance of that field > of science won't be lost. > > Until that isn't achieved, hunters, scientists and collectors - come to > Austria. > > Gosh, we're talking about meteorites. The most whack and strangest and > rarest objects on Earth, without any cultural, economical or natural > importance. And of solely scientific interest, where the researchers are > glad and happy that people are going out to look for them. > How anyone with a brain could come to the idea to make a law for meteorites? > > > So - let's handle the case more pragmactically: > Let Schrader, Farmer & Co. save the stones first and the strewnfield data, > before we hang them for the crime to have recovered a new pristine fall for > science and a fall of historical dimensions for the State of Arizona. > > Anybody else here, who feels the absurdity the same way like me? > Martin > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Jeff > Grossman > Gesendet: Montag, 6. Juli 2009 02:37 > An: Meteorite-list > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall > > I am skeptical that this covers meteorites, even if a BLM employee > thinks it does. Very skeptical. > > jeff > > Adam Hupe wrote: >> Dear List, >> >> A question came up about who owns meteorites found on federal land. >> >> Below is a link that can be cut and pasted into a browser that discusses > removal of minerals from federal land. I was told by a BLM officer that 150 > pounds can be removed a year for non-commercial/hobby purposes. The BLM > will issue free non-commercial use permits if requested. I found that they > will even mail them to you free. If you are caught removing minerals > without one, the fines can be as great as $100,000.00 or a year in jail. >> >> If a meteorite weighs more than 150 pounds, it will have to be cut in the > field and the rest recovered during subsequent years or the Smithsonian may > claim it. The BLM can and will come after you if profits from any object > including meteorites are taken from the sale of minerals from federal land. > I was told that eBay is monitored all of time and notes taken. I made some > poor agent spend more than an hour on the phone explaining what is and isn't > acceptable to them to avoid future problems. >> >> The good news is that you can keep the meteorites! >> >> I think Jack,s approach of keeping the press out of this fall is well > thought out. The first thing the press will do is mention there is monetary > value in meteorites and then "Gold Fever" will set in. I have seen people do > strange things and come up with poorly thought out plans when "Gold Fever" > takes hold. People with this affliction are usually the ones that > relentlessly chase the press instead of looking for meteorites themselves. > They will stab fellow hunters in the back and forget all about long-forged > friendships. They are best avoided all-together. >> >> Here is a link that will explain mineral laws in simple English: >> >> > http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo/MINERALS__REALTY__AND_RESOURCE > _PROTECTION_/non-energy_minerals.Par.48557.File.dat/sand.pdf >> >> >> By the way, Congratulations Jack, excellent job all around! >> >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Adam >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> > > > -- > Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184 > US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383 > 954 National Center > Reston, VA 20192, USA > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From edeckert at triad.rr.com Sun Jul 5 20:49:56 2009 From: edeckert at triad.rr.com (Ed Deckert) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 20:49:56 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall References: <671939.20870.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A514716.40403@usgs.gov> Message-ID: <013a01c9fdd3$b0c691a0$6401a8c0@EdDeckertMain> I wondered about that too. But if a meteorite lands in my back yard, or yours, the land owner (me, or you) owns the meteorite. So by that logic, with BLM land belonging to the US government, would not the meteorite technically belong to the government? I'm not a lawyer or any other kind of expert in property matters, but that would seem to cover it very well. I would think that if one abides by the 150 lb per year collecting rule that Adam refers to that collecting this fall would be OK. As far as selling the those specimens is concerned, that's another story. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Grossman" To: "Meteorite-list" Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 8:36 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall >I am skeptical that this covers meteorites, even if a BLM employee thinks >it does. Very skeptical. > > jeff > > Adam Hupe wrote: >> Dear List, >> >> A question came up about who owns meteorites found on federal land. >> >> Below is a link that can be cut and pasted into a browser that discusses >> removal of minerals from federal land. I was told by a BLM officer that >> 150 pounds can be removed a year for non-commercial/hobby purposes. The >> BLM will issue free non-commercial use permits if requested. I found that >> they will even mail them to you free. If you are caught removing >> minerals without one, the fines can be as great as $100,000.00 or a year >> in jail. >> >> If a meteorite weighs more than 150 pounds, it will have to be cut in the >> field and the rest recovered during subsequent years or the Smithsonian >> may claim it. The BLM can and will come after you if profits from any >> object including meteorites are taken from the sale of minerals from >> federal land. I was told that eBay is monitored all of time and notes >> taken. I made some poor agent spend more than an hour on the phone >> explaining what is and isn't acceptable to them to avoid future problems. >> >> The good news is that you can keep the meteorites! >> >> I think Jack,s approach of keeping the press out of this fall is well >> thought out. The first thing the press will do is mention there is >> monetary value in meteorites and then "Gold Fever" will set in. I have >> seen people do strange things and come up with poorly thought out plans >> when "Gold Fever" takes hold. People with this affliction are usually the >> ones that relentlessly chase the press instead of looking for meteorites >> themselves. They will stab fellow hunters in the back and forget all >> about long-forged friendships. They are best avoided all-together. >> Here is a link that will explain mineral laws in simple English: >> >> http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo/MINERALS__REALTY__AND_RESOURCE_PROTECTION_/non-energy_minerals.Par.48557.File.dat/sand.pdf >> >> >> By the way, Congratulations Jack, excellent job all around! >> >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Adam >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> > > > -- > Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184 > US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383 > 954 National Center > Reston, VA 20192, USA > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.441) > Database version: 6.12750 > http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.441) Database version: 6.12750 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ From pshugar at clearwire.net Sun Jul 5 22:51:48 2009 From: pshugar at clearwire.net (Pete Shugar) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:51:48 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Re Arizona Fall Message-ID: List, It is said that they want to document the fall site, map the strewn field. I have a question. In order to map the strewn field, you need to find the meteorites, right? So, if you thourghly map the strewn field, this means you find all the meteorites. What will be left for others to find??????? NOTHING, as the field will be all worked out. The GPS location will be worth nothing, for there will be nothing to go look for. Pete From cynapse at charter.net Sun Jul 5 23:59:20 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 22:59:20 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall In-Reply-To: <005801c9fde4$252ce5c0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> References: <671939.20870.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A514716.40403@usgs.gov> <005101c9fdd8$93fd15d0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> <005801c9fde4$252ce5c0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: <1jt255di3gt2p2kdr0h6emhclfubfrk98u@4ax.com> On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 04:47:46 +0200, you wrote: >Hi Adam, > >I was just told, that in US a meteorite always gets part of the land :-( Yep. 40 acres. And a mule. Oh, wait-- I was thinking of something else. From meteoritehunter at comcast.net Sun Jul 5 23:04:10 2009 From: meteoritehunter at comcast.net (Michael Farmer) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 20:04:10 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Re Arizona Fall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EB9F097-2CB6-4487-A524-4F3D355C2F10@comcast.net> There is no such thing as hunted out. Give me a break holbrooks being found 100 years after the fall. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone Michael On Jul 5, 2009, at 7:51 PM, "Pete Shugar" wrote: > List, > It is said that they want to document the fall site, map the strewn > field. > > I have a question. In order to map the strewn field, you need to > find the > meteorites, right? > So, if you thourghly map the strewn field, this means you find all the > meteorites. > > What will be left for others to find??????? NOTHING, as the field > will be > all worked out. The GPS location will be worth nothing, for there > will be > nothing to go look for. > Pete > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From minador at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 23:13:59 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 20:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Re Arizona Fall Message-ID: <668526.77169.qm@web54407.mail.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Michael Farmer wrote: > There is no such thing as hunted > out. > Give me a break holbrooks being found 100 years after the > fall. > Michael Farmer > I hope this means that what you guys have seen indicates this is a huge fall! ;-) Woo hoo! Mark From gmhupe at htn.net Sun Jul 5 23:32:07 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 23:32:07 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall References: <24255.35176.qm@web46408.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6DF83038BD6043188BCC8095E4E78524@Gregor> Hello Greg C., First thing I would do if I were you would be polite to those who you seek information from! I am sure you remember the saying comparing honey and vinegar... don't feel bad, I hear there are other's who are "frustrated" with the finding team's well-earned 'good luck'!! Greg H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Catterton" To: Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 10:25 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall Im glad you seem to understand where I am coming from, this was not meant as an attack, just my frustration at not being able to join in on what I would consider a great learning experience. When I was told it was being kept secret, I felt pretty upset at the fact that it seemed to be that something of a high scholl clique only type thing. I am newer at this and want to take up as many things like this as I can to better learn and understand things and thought with the gorup out there currently, I could learn alot while contributing in a good manner. I have asked many hunters to tag along on trips, becouse I dont know how to do it and really want to learn. each time I have been told no. I want to learn how to do this right and if none of these guys are willing to help me out or anyone else who wants to learn how to do it right, why should I even stay in this hobby? Greg C. --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Jack Schrader wrote: > From: Jack Schrader > Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 5:35 PM > > Dear list members. > > I have today received an email from a person. He sent the > message to the list and not to me personally so you already > know who this person is. If he had sent the message to me > personally, I would have treated it with complete > confidentiality. I feel that it is important to share the > information I shared with him with the members of this > list. Most of the people on this list have been involved > with the science of meteorites for many years and have > already gained the knowledge and wisdom that can only come > from years of experience. This list has been very fortunate > to have been joined by people who are new to the science and > to the wonderful hobby of collecting meteorites. His email > was not sent to be malicious but was sent out of frustration > and out of his enthusiastic desire to be able to look for a > new meteorite and to actually find one for himself.. These > people who hold this intense enthusiasm are the people we > need in this science, this > hobby. This is the dream we all hold dear, to venture out, > find and be the first one to touch a stone that acually fell > to earth from space. I have copied the information I sent > to him below. I hope others who are experiencing similar > feelings of frustration at the present time will benefit > from this as well. > > > Hello. This fall is a very rare, a very important and > historic fall for this state and for the University of > Arizona in particular as the site is very literally in their > own back yard. It is vitally important that the area be > protected for only as long as it takes to properly record > and document the fall. I have seen what happens to an area > when the location is announced publicly too early. The > area is almost immediately deluged and over run with not > only the true professional meteorite hunters who are > actually trying to do something good and recover the stones > properly with GPS coordinates and photographic evidence of > the stones in situ but with every treasure seeker and rock > hunter and curiosity seeker who could care less about the > science but more about simply having something cool to show > off to their friends. This is okay too and there is > absolutely nothing wrong with this but right now is not the > time for this. This area is presently > pristine and kin to a very delicate archaeological site. > The archaeologists need to do the proper work in the area > before the "pot > hunters" find it and destroy any information that could > otherwise be learned from the site. My intention is > certainly not simply just for the money or the stones that > can be recovered. When you really give this some thought, > you will realize that I did not have to tell a single soul > about this. I discovered this remote area entirely on my > own using the knowledge that I have gained over many years > of hunting meteorites. I could have very easily kept this > site to myself and hunted it for months and months. But > the path I chose was simply to do the right thing. I made > a proper announcement and I have begun preparations for > conducting a proper search and recording of the fall site. > Please do not worry. You will get your opportunity to hunt > the area. There will be stones in this area to be > recovered for years to come and you will find yours. And > they will be free, you will not have to buy anything. The > area as any area where meteorite have > fallen either in recent or in ancient times is impossible > to > hunt out completely. I am just simply asking for a little > time that it takes to be able to properly record this fall > site so the information may be available to the University > of Arizona and to any other institutions and meteoriticists > in the world who may have an interest in the work that we > will be doing. It is too important to risk destroying the > information at this point not only for the science that can > be gained from the area but for the generations to come who > may have an interest in learning more about the dynamics of > meteors and the variety of strewn field types that they > create. I do appreciate your understanding. My very best > wishes, Dr. Jack Schrader > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 23:49:10 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 20:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall - detailed... Message-ID: <208937.61663.qm@web46404.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I will break this down some... > Greg, you seem to have a good heart, but you are coming off as very nasty.> Thanks, I do have a good heart, and I dont want to come off as nasty - its hard to get your points across how you want them to be on the internet. > We make a living at this, now you are selling meteorites and gloating and throwing sand in the eyes of the "big dealers" on prices. Do you think this will help your chances?> I sell meteorites only to help to pay for my collection. When dealers sell stuff like ordinary chondrites for $100 per gram, unless you are rich, you all but have to sell if you want samples of the new falls. I know what I pay for Lunar, and when I see others charging what they do, it makes me wonder - I am just lucky to get it for what I do or do the dealers really want to make that much off the collectors? I do not want to throw sand or gloat, but I do speak what I think. It may not always come off like I want it to, but I wont hold my tounge when I have something to say. As far as my chances, I had nasty emails over what I was selling lunar for, have been turned down many many times when I have asked for help and ideas, I dont think my chances from the well known group like you are in were good to begin with - as you said, why help out the competion? >I am really not interested in training my competition, so I am not too keen to take people with me. This is not meant to be mean, but common sense.> Did Bob Haag not help you out? From what I have read and understand, he did alot. Correct me if I am wrong. I am far from competition to you, nor would I ever really want to be. As I said, I only sell to help pay for my personal collection - So I sell a few things from time to time... look at my ebay record, then look at yours. Its a struggle for me to come up with enough material to get a power seller status to get a discount for fees! I have really been into the meteorite hobby for 3 years, how long have you been into it? If you consider me copetition, I take that as an impressive compliment! I was not able to make it to west, my wife was in her last weeks of Nursing school (she passed and is now an official RN!!) and I now have more time to put into meteorites. I knew you were kind enough to help a few then, I did not understand why not now. I am eager to learn from the guys like you who for better or worse are well known and who I thought would be great menotrs of sorts... When I am constantly turned down while seeking to better myself and my knowlege on meteorites, it is frusterating as many claim to be in it for the benifit of science and learning - yet are unwilling to really help someone who wants to learn how to do it right. I can read books all day long (which I do) but when it comes to in the field learning and hands on, books dont do it. so, to rap up this book, I am sorry if I have offended anyone, it was not my intent. I just think that some of the people out there should remember when they were new at this and how much they wanted to learn and take part in things and consider that when someone asks to help out. I would have been happy just being there and learning about the aspects of the hunt and documentaion - even if I came back empty handed, the trip would have been worth it to me from the experience I would have gained from it. Instead, I am now a collector who is really considering walking away from meteorites due to what I feel is an exclusive group who is unwilling to allow someone like me who honestly wants to learn from you all to take part. Yes, I can do it on my own, but I would rather learn from people who know what they are doing and learn how to do it right instead of blindly stumbling along before I get it right. Hope everyone is good and had a safe 4th of July. Greg C. --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Michael Farmer wrote: > From: Michael Farmer > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, "Greg Catterton" > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 10:30 PM > > Greg, you seem to have a good heart, but you are coming off > as very nasty. > Just go hunt, I learned on my own, most people learn by > doing. My first real fall was Monahans, then months later > Portales, I learned on the spot, alone, it was every man for > himself. > We make a living at this, now you are selling meteorites > and gloating and throwing sand in the eyes of the "big > dealers" on prices. Do you think this will help your > chances? Come on, I spent ~$50,000 a year on hunts, and let > me tell you, I must recoup this in sales, or I will be > living in a cardboard box. Your emails harping on overpriced > dealers are not falling on deaf ears. Go ahead, do a hunt > yourself, see what the costs are for stones found, and you > would find that most in West lost money, even those who > found stones! > Get over it, take a chance, do it. I am really not > interested in training my competition, so I am not too keen > to take people with me. This is not meant to be mean, but > common sense. > Michael Farmer > > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Greg Catterton > wrote: > > > From: Greg Catterton > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the > Arizona Fall > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 8:25 PM > > > > Im glad you seem to understand where I am coming from, > this > > was not meant as an attack, just my frustration at not > being > > able to join in on what I would consider a great > learning > > experience. > > When I was told it was being kept secret, I felt > pretty > > upset at the fact that it seemed to be that something > of a > > high scholl clique only type thing. > > I am newer at this and want to take up as many things > like > > this as I can to better learn and understand things > and > > thought with the gorup out there currently, I could > learn > > alot while contributing in a good manner. > > > > I have asked many hunters to tag along on trips, > becouse I > > dont know how to do it and really want to learn. each > time I > > have been told no. > > > > I want to learn how to do this right and if none of > these > > guys are willing to help me out or anyone else who > wants to > > learn how to do it right, why should I even stay in > this > > hobby? > > > > Greg C. > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Jack Schrader > > wrote: > > > > > From: Jack Schrader > > > Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the > Arizona > > Fall > > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 5:35 PM > > > > > > Dear list members. > > > > > > I have today received an email from a person.? > He > > sent the > > > message to the list and not to me personally so > you > > already > > > know who this person is.? If he had sent the > message > > to me > > > personally, I would have treated it with > complete > > > confidentiality.? I feel that it is important > to > > share the > > > information I shared with him with the members > of > > this > > > list.? Most of the people on this list have > been > > involved > > > with the science of meteorites for many years > and > > have > > > already gained the knowledge and wisdom that can > only > > come > > > from years of experience. This list has been > very > > fortunate > > > to have been joined by people who are new to the > > science and > > > to the wonderful hobby of collecting > meteorites.? His > > email > > > was not sent to be malicious but was sent out of > > frustration > > > and out of his enthusiastic desire to be able to > look > > for a > > > new meteorite and to actually find one for > himself..? > > These > > > people who hold this intense enthusiasm are the > people > > we > > > need in this science, this > > >? hobby. This is the dream we all hold dear, to > > venture out, > > > find and be the first one to touch a stone that > > acually fell > > > to earth from space.? I have copied the > information I > > sent > > > to him below.? I hope others who are > experiencing > > similar > > > feelings of frustration at the present time will > > benefit > > > from this as well. > > > > > > > > > Hello.? This fall is a very rare, a very > important > > and > > > historic fall for this state and for the > University > > of > > > Arizona in particular as the site is very > literally in > > their > > > own back yard.? It is vitally important that the > area > > be > > > protected for only as long as it takes to > properly > > record > > > and document the fall.? I have seen what happens > to > > an area > > > when?the location?is announced publicly too > early.? > > The > > > area is almost immediately deluged and over run > with > > not > > > only the true professional meteorite hunters who > are > > > actually trying to do something good and recover > the > > stones > > > properly with GPS coordinates and photographic > > evidence of > > > the stones in situ but with every treasure seeker > and > > rock > > > hunter and curiosity seeker who could care less > about > > the > > > science but more about simply having something > cool to > > show > > > off to their friends.? This is okay too and > there is > > > absolutely nothing wrong with this but right now > is > > not the > > > time for this.? This area is presently > > >? pristine and kin to a very delicate > > archaeological site.? > > > The archaeologists need to do the proper work in > the > > area > > > before the "pot > > > hunters" find it and destroy any information > that > > could > > > otherwise be learned from the site.? My > intention is > > > certainly not simply just for the money or the > stones > > that > > > can be recovered.? When you really give this > some > > thought, > > > you will realize that I did not have to tell a > single > > soul > > > about this.? I discovered this remote area > entirely > > on my > > > own using the knowledge that I have gained over > many > > years > > > of hunting meteorites. I could have very easily > kept > > this > > > site to myself and hunted it for months and > months.? > > But > > > the path I chose was simply to do the right > thing.? I > > made > > > a proper announcement and I have begun > preparations > > for > > > conducting a proper search and recording of the > fall > > site.? > > > Please do not worry.? You will get your > opportunity > > to hunt > > > the area.? There will be stones in this area to > be > > > recovered for years to come and you will find > yours.? > > And > > > they will be free, you will not have to buy > > anything.? The > > > area as any area where meteorite have > > >? fallen either in recent or in ancient times is > > impossible > > > to > > > hunt out completely.? I am just simply asking > for a > > little > > > time that it takes to be able to properly record > this > > fall > > > site so the information may be available to the > > University > > > of Arizona and to any other institutions and > > meteoriticists > > > in the world who may have an interest in the work > that > > we > > > will be doing.? It is too important to risk > > destroying the > > > information at this point not only for the > science > > that can > > > be gained from the area but for the generations > to > > come who > > > may have an interest in learning more about the > > dynamics of > > > meteors and the variety of strewn field types > that > > they > > > create.? I do appreciate your understanding.? > My > > very best > > > wishes, Dr. Jack Schrader > > > > > > > > > > > > ? ? ? > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > > > ? ? ? > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > From SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com Mon Jul 6 00:05:03 2009 From: SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com (SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 00:05:03 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - July 6, 2009 Message-ID: http://www.rocksfromspace.org/July_6_2009.html __________________________ **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377077x1201454398/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jul yExcfooterNO62) From majbaermann at web.de Mon Jul 6 02:58:11 2009 From: majbaermann at web.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Matthias_B=E4rmann?=) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 08:58:11 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] Solar oxygen isotopes = CAI oxygen isotopes? References: <000001c9fd67$5508d1f0$ff1a75d0$@net> Message-ID: <59911AECD4AC4A70AEEEDF18BBEACDF9@thinkcentre> Yes I agree, thank you for this utmost interesting link, nearly vanishing in all the noise of the Arizona battle. Matthias B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Flaherty" To: "christopher sharp" ; Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 3:44 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Solar oxygen isotopes = CAI oxygen isotopes? > Thanks Chris for this significant piece of information. > Jerry Flaherty grf2 at comcast.net > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "christopher sharp" > Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 7:54 AM > To: > Subject: [meteorite-list] Solar oxygen isotopes = CAI oxygen isotopes? > >> Found this interesting: >> >> http://genesismission.jpl.nasa.gov/gm2/news/features/closer.htm >> >> from >> >> http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html >> >> bit of a paradigm shift if confirmed! >> >> Happy Independence Day USA >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From damoclid at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 05:45:07 2009 From: damoclid at yahoo.com (Richard Kowalski) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 02:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Hunting in one's own "backyard"? Message-ID: <671859.26047.qm@web33906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> As a relative newbie to this field, I've been pouring through books, websites and videos on youtube learning more about meteorites and meteorite hunting. There appears to be good information out there for the beginning hunter to get started. It seems that the falls get the attention and I understand the attraction of finding fresh material immediately after a fall. However it strikes me that just about anyone can hunt practically in their backyard and have the search area all to themselves. In Richard Norton's _Rocks from Space_ in the chapter on meteorite hunting, page 315 under "The Farm Belt" he wrote "It has been more than 50 years since Harvey Nininger successfully search the farms of the midwest for meteorites. It's time to retrace his footsteps and try again. ... Farmlands in Michigan Illinois, Ohio, Iowa, and Indiana were barely touched by Nininger's search." I'm curious if anyone has made a concerted effort to repeat his searches, both where he worked and in other areas? In the same book, it is mentioned that early on Nininger simply asked for permission to search through the rock piles that accumulate on just about every farm. It would seem to me that there are many, many farms in just about every state that could hold a cache of meteorites that are simply weathering away because no one has taken the time to look for and recover them. Maybe this type of hunting is not as sexy as hunting for fragments that brand new fall with their sleek fusion crust, but then again, one wouldn't have to travel across the country or around the world just to start searching and then be in a race to find fragments and individuals before a competitor does. I may be missing something here but I'd be interested in hearing how many hunters actually do this, if any, and how often they turn up a new meteorite. Thanks -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA #1081 From carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 6 08:28:33 2009 From: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com (Carl 's) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 05:28:33 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall Message-ID: Nice try MikeG. It's a secret! :D Carl MikeG wrote: >Early question - what will this fall be called? What is the nearest geological feature or post office? _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009 From meteoritemike at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 12:18:57 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 12:18:57 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone have info on these? (or specimens?) Message-ID: Hi List and Hammer Fans, (MC Hammer fans please skip this post - this is about Hammer Meteorites, not rappers) While reading through Grady's Catalogue of Meteorites last night, I ran across some entries that describe possible hammer falls. I was wondering if someone here on the List might have more information about them, or possibly a specimen (or photo). Mbale - everyone knows it's a hammer because it struck many buildings. But, the entry in the Catalogue of Mets states - "...The stones hit several buildings, but nobody was hurt, although a young boy was apparently hit on the head..." It then goes on to say that an expedition by the Dutch Meteor Society investigated the fall and documented 48 impact locations. Did they (or anyone) investigate the claim of the boy being hit on the head? Since everyone refers to Sylacauga as the only meteorite documented to strike a human being in modern times, then I am I right to assume that the Mbale boy was debunked or never proven? ... Mhow (yes, I was reading through the M's!) - Mhow is an obscure L6 fall from India. On Feb 16, 1827 at 15:00 hrs local time, 4 or 5 stones fell and that one struck a tree and another wounded a man. This was an L6 chondrite. Was this claim ever investigated at any time? ... Neagari - Feb 18, 1995 Japanese fall, L6 chondrite. The Catalogue of Mets states : "...The next morning, in the city of Neagari, Mr. K. Sasatani found a hole in the boot of his car and meteorite fragments were on and inside the boot." For those of us West of the Big Pond, a car boot is a car trunk. ;) I guess it doesn't matter if this claim was substantiated or not because the finder owns the entire main mass and only a small type specimen exists at the Tokyo Museum. So this one is unattainable - unless someone wants to offer Mr. Sasatani some sake and loosen him up to an offer. ;) ... I'm sure I'll run across more of these as I make my way through the Catalogue. Best regards and clear skies, MikeG -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From astroroks at hotmail.com Mon Jul 6 12:33:57 2009 From: astroroks at hotmail.com (Dennis Miller) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 11:33:57 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Collecting on Federal Lands. Message-ID: Good Morning All.... I see lots of questions about your rights on Federal Lands. These rights are spelled out in "Code of Federal Regulations". The section that is purtenate to the question is in "Title 43, Part 8360, Subpart 8365. It states your right to collect rocks and minerals, as long as it is a reasonable amount, not vertibrate fossels and not for commercial use. I have a copy in my vehicle and fanny pack just in case I run into a BLM agent who is not familiar with my rights. It keeps them off your back and out of your vehicle. They are really busy right now trying to enforce the "Antiquities Act" (Pothunters). Happy Hunting! Dennis Miller _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009 From astroroks at hotmail.com Mon Jul 6 12:48:02 2009 From: astroroks at hotmail.com (Dennis Miller) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 11:48:02 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Federal Land Usage... Message-ID: Hi Again! Boy, do I have a RED face. After reading my post I saw numerous spelling errors. It was quickly written without the use of spell-check. Sorry... But you get the gest. Now back to my coffee.. Dennis _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 13:10:20 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 10:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone have info on these? (or specimens?) Message-ID: <782958.23052.qm@web55202.mail.re4.yahoo.com> > Neagari - Feb 18, 1995 Japanese fall, L6 chondrite.? > The Catalogue of Mets states : "...The next morning, in the city of Neagari, Mr. K. Sasatani found a hole in the boot of his car and meteorite fragments were on and inside the boot." Yes the claim was substantiated and an interesting thing about this car hit was that the stone was apparently spinning as it left a pin-wheel pattern in the scraped paint. At one time there were photos on the web. I believe he found the main mass lying in the street and it matched it to the the indentation in the "boot". Yes there was a puncture. Elton From meteoriteguy at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 13:40:56 2009 From: meteoriteguy at yahoo.com (Michael Farmer) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 10:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA! Message-ID: <599339.61653.qm@web110615.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Alright you aspiring meteorite hunters on the east coast, a large fireball with explosions that shook houses in PA was reported at 1:10 am this morning! If there are explosions, it is close and can be found. No excuses, as some of us are busy in Arizona. Michael Farmer http://www.wgal.com/news/19966650/detail.html From ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Mon Jul 6 13:39:06 2009 From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com (ensoramanda at ntlworld.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 18:39:06 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] China meteorites? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20090706183906.QZB1O.124524.root@web02-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Hi All, Good luck to all those hunting the new Arizona fall...exciting stuff! Just off (wednesday) for a tour of China ending up at the total eclipse in Shanghai on the the 22nd. Communication after wed may be difficult! Just wondered if anyone on the list had any knowledge of meteorite related places to visit/museums/dealers in China, around Beijing, Xian, Wuhan, Guilin, Hangzhou, or Shanghai? Would be grateful for any advice. Cheers, Graham Ensor, Nr Barwell, UK. From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Mon Jul 6 13:50:54 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 19:50:54 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] Old men say to Greg C. was Arizona Fall - detailed... In-Reply-To: <208937.61663.qm@web46404.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <208937.61663.qm@web46404.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005501c9fe62$51ced790$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Hi Greg C. >I know what I pay for Lunar, and when I see others charging what they do, >it makes me wonder - I am just lucky to get it for what I do or do the >dealers really want to make that much off the collectors? >I do not want to throw sand or gloat, but I do speak what I think. Ya Greg, but you have to think before and to think a little bit further. Because I think, you disregard important parameters in your calculation. Seems that you're thinking - buying price minus selling price = profit. Which is somewhat short-sighted. Let's start with the most simple to understand: I don't know, are you paying taxes for your sales? Each "big" or professional dealer, who does his living with meteorites, has to do so. Don't know, I read somewhere, that the average tax&dues quota in USA would be smth around 30%. Plus here and there federal sales taxes. There are other countries, where the quota exceeds 50%. And maybe those professional dealers want to have a health insurance or even a pension plan like anybody in other professions has too? So the next point, perhaps not so easy to understand yet for you. A big dealer has to bring up permanently new material of rare types and new meteorites, the hunter in the field has to find permanently better stuff than the 90% ordinary chondrites, which are lying around, a fall chaser has to find pieces of the few falls per year at all, if they want to make a living from meteorites. So they have to work completely differently than you, who orders a few stones per year of already known (and in most cases known, because the hunters/dealers had them classified before) material from your armchair. And there we have a problem, Greg. Meteorites are by far the rarest stuff on Earth. A ruby, a world-class diamond, a dinosaur - no problem, a dealer can simply reorder, if he's running out - but with a new Lunar, a new Martian, ya even with a new eucrite - he can't. The professional hunters have to travel and to graze the fields week for week, hoping to find something better than an ordinary chondrite - look into the bulletins, how few achondrites were found in the US-deserts, how small the weight of all achondrites is, collected through more than 30 years in Antarctica, where the stones are especially easy to identify, or from that huge half of the continent covered by Sahara in the last 20 years. 100kgs of eucrites only from NWA, to give you a hint. And a fall hunter has to try his luck with the 7 or 10 falls per year. Ask the regular and best desert hunters in USA - we figured it already out on the list in former times, what for average find rates per hour they have, - the result is, that if they would like to live from their finds, it would be more rewarding and easier for them to tie around an apron and to get employed at a fast food instead. And the NWA-dealers - they have to travel to Morocco and have to try to identify new exiting stones. If the possible lunar turns later out to be an eucrite only or a terrestrial - bad luck, the money at stack is lost. That they have to compensate too. Other simply costs. You experienced it with your piece of the lunar - from your postings to the list, we heard that you got so insecure about the provenance or you weren't aware, that this material was already classified, that you almost - if not the nice members of the list, yes also big dealers, informed you, that it wouldn't be necessary - hence that you almost had reclassified that stuff at Ted Bunch again. That would have meant, that you'd have to give away 20% of your lunar for free, which again would have reduced your profit. You took advantage - as it is often with assumed pairings too - that others took the costs for classification. Yes it is true - the dealers do let classify their stones and if it's something so rare like a planetary, they do have to donate material of a retail value of 20 or 30k$. - and anyway most of the big dealers donate a lot more material of their finds than only the type & deposit specimens. Well more costs: You see the hunters in the deserts, the fall chasers, the NWA dealers, they all travel many months, half a year or more per year to get new finds for the collectors and researchers. That costs. We just read from Michael Farmer, that he has travel expenses per year of 50k$. That sum he has to earn! But just google around, what it would cost you, to buy a plane ticket to NWA wonderland, to rent a car, to spend several weeks there - and how many UNWAs or HEDs you would have to sell, to get only your travel costs back. And try to find there a new lunar or Martian - the odds you can figure out from the Bulletin database. Other costs. Transaction costs like paypal, ebay fees ect. you know by your own, But a dealer has to run a business, with all the costs for bureau, bookkeeping, advertising, machines, preparation costs and and and, Costs which an amateur seller doesn't has or not to that extend. Take only the iron preparators, how long does it take to completely slice down a 2kg Muonionalusta or a Campo, how long does it take to grind and to polish a hand sized slice to that perfect state and on both sides please, which allows an etching of that quality, which each collector does expect? How long does it take to stabilize and to preserve each slice at the state of art after etching? Have you an idea, how much such a slice would cost then, if you only would have to pay the minimum wage for the working hours and the machines and preparation material costs? That stuff is so cheap, cause the preparators are doing it by their selves. Think to the cut and polishing loss. You see how crumbly your Lunar is. What for a cut loss you'd have, if you would cut slices and expertly polish them as it is standard among the collectors. Stones and irons 20-30%... Reduces again your profit. And look what else they're doing - that basical work of growing and instructing new collectors, customer service, they organize exhibitions or give their best pieces on loan to exhibitions for free (where each art collector would get a fine sum), they are writing books, giving lessons, go into schools, they spread knowledge in the newspapers and on TV, All that basic work. O.k. - that all are doing many collectors too - but did you so too? Or they bring you the stones to the shows. I'm not so sure, whether your revenue from the piece of lunar at the end would be sufficient to pay 2 weeks as an exhibitor in Tucson or to have a stall at the Munich or Tokyo show. And see what they're nevertheless doing, the so greedy big dealers, they tinker even from their most exciting finds small servings, that each and every collector now matter how limited their budgets are, can participate. You see what Farmer, the Hupes, we are doing - seen only the efforts and costs all these Micros 1g, 2g pieces, these 2-50$ polished slices are in fact a loss for them or at best not profitable. But they offer them additionally for everybody being able to enjoy that hobby. Well and at the end - they do this all often alone as one-man-shows. Hence keeping that all in mind, you'll recognize that it was somewhat easy for you to start acting as big Robin Hood and to play the Hero. (In fact a professional dealer, if he would buy at your purchase price and would resell at your selling price, would earn a lot less than you). Cause seen these conditions, it's anyway astonishing, that professional dealers are all in all not more expensive than hobby-sellers or not so seldom even cheaper. And anyway I can't understand your anger. Would you scream blue murder in a mechanics forum too, cause in some cases you would be able to fix your car by your own? Would you suspect the members of a baker's mailing-list to be extortioners, cause if necessary you would be able to make a bread by yourself? See. If it's accepted as absolutely normal that such professions are paid for their services, wouldn't it be a matter of course, that meteorite dealers would be paid in a fair manner too to appreciate their performance? A profession btw, which I suspect to be more difficult than others, cause if it would be so easy as you think it is, I guess we would have in each major town and in each second mall a specialized meteorite shop... Well and you're experienced it now by your own, that it's not that easy with selling meteorites, in getting frustrated, that noone seemed to have directly been waiting for buying that lunar at 1000$/g from you. (O.k. collector-sized slices - slices and not fragments were here and there offered at 1250$/g too, hence seen the cut loss your offer wasn't that sensational - and in general you had bad luck, cause you hadn't checked the archives before, where a Moroccan had offered that lunar in big chunks at 500$/g to the list). But in general also the sale of meteorites has a lot to do with courtesy, mutual respect and trust, likewise the whole meteorite community is shaped and ruled by these values. That after your behaviour here on the list, the dealers and experienced colletors weren't be eager to share their experiences and knowledge with you, isn't surprising, because there are friendlier people and newcomers to deal with. And that the meteorite scene isn't that evil as you might have thought, you just experienced today, where several of those, who you suspected before to be dishonest, even took the time to answer you and others already offered you assistance in learning how to hunt for meteorites. I don't know, it is a banality that a correct behaviour and a certain courtesy is the fundament for a friendly cooperation and relationship. With your rantings you hadn't made yourself directly friends, neither such things are well and truly (and note, that we never made an issue out of it). http://kuerzer.de/Cattplag vs http://kuerzer.de/ChladOrg But now, I'm sure, you'll make it better. Why I'm writing that all to the list, where I guess most know that all, and not to you privately... Because I have uncomfortable feelings. Perhaps it's only because I'm starting to get senile. But among the youngest generation of collectors of the last 1-3 years, at least to me it seems so, there are many so aggressive. So many angry young men. Not only in USA, everywhere else too. And I don't know why. They rage against the system, where there is no system. Everywhere they smell a conspiracy. (The dealers conspiracy, the hunters conspiracy, the ebay-seller conspiracy, the veteran collectors conspiracy, the Moroccan conspiracy, the scientist conspiracy, the IMCA-conspiracy....). And I don't understand, why they then collect meteorites at all, if it makes them so angry? Most of the collectors want to have in their meteorites an equilibrium to their hard daily routine. Meteorites are a source of joy for them. Nourishment for their curiosity, for their aesthetical sensation, occasion for occupying with the universe, with history, with science or also very concrete to work on them in cutting, preparing or even to go for a hunt out in nature.. ...the reasons for them to collect are manifold. But if the only joy I get from meteorites should be the satisfaction to have bought a stone cheaper than my fellow-collector, to make some bucks in selling stones, to find a valve to let out my aggressions in ranting about each and everybody and to listen to and to spread nasty gossip, then I would say, that for these purposes, meteorites aren't directly necessary. That kind of occupation one can have in any other field too and easier I guess too. Huh, back to the new fall. History is fine. Greg, perhaps, if you find a little time, you could search a little bit on internet about the history of Gold Basin and the unforgotten Jim Kriegh. Than you will see, that that, what happens now with the new fall is nothing to bristle about or to be worried. Best! Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Greg Catterton Gesendet: Montag, 6. Juli 2009 05:49 An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall - detailed... I will break this down some... > Greg, you seem to have a good heart, but you are coming off as very nasty.> Thanks, I do have a good heart, and I dont want to come off as nasty - its hard to get your points across how you want them to be on the internet. > We make a living at this, now you are selling meteorites and gloating and throwing sand in the eyes of the "big dealers" on prices. Do you think this will help your chances?> I sell meteorites only to help to pay for my collection. When dealers sell stuff like ordinary chondrites for $100 per gram, unless you are rich, you all but have to sell if you want samples of the new falls. I know what I pay for Lunar, and when I see others charging what they do, it makes me wonder - I am just lucky to get it for what I do or do the dealers really want to make that much off the collectors? I do not want to throw sand or gloat, but I do speak what I think. It may not always come off like I want it to, but I wont hold my tounge when I have something to say. As far as my chances, I had nasty emails over what I was selling lunar for, have been turned down many many times when I have asked for help and ideas, I dont think my chances from the well known group like you are in were good to begin with - as you said, why help out the competion? >I am really not interested in training my competition, so I am not too keen to take people with me. This is not meant to be mean, but common sense.> Did Bob Haag not help you out? From what I have read and understand, he did alot. Correct me if I am wrong. I am far from competition to you, nor would I ever really want to be. As I said, I only sell to help pay for my personal collection - So I sell a few things from time to time... look at my ebay record, then look at yours. Its a struggle for me to come up with enough material to get a power seller status to get a discount for fees! I have really been into the meteorite hobby for 3 years, how long have you been into it? If you consider me copetition, I take that as an impressive compliment! I was not able to make it to west, my wife was in her last weeks of Nursing school (she passed and is now an official RN!!) and I now have more time to put into meteorites. I knew you were kind enough to help a few then, I did not understand why not now. I am eager to learn from the guys like you who for better or worse are well known and who I thought would be great menotrs of sorts... When I am constantly turned down while seeking to better myself and my knowlege on meteorites, it is frusterating as many claim to be in it for the benifit of science and learning - yet are unwilling to really help someone who wants to learn how to do it right. I can read books all day long (which I do) but when it comes to in the field learning and hands on, books dont do it. so, to rap up this book, I am sorry if I have offended anyone, it was not my intent. I just think that some of the people out there should remember when they were new at this and how much they wanted to learn and take part in things and consider that when someone asks to help out. I would have been happy just being there and learning about the aspects of the hunt and documentaion - even if I came back empty handed, the trip would have been worth it to me from the experience I would have gained from it. Instead, I am now a collector who is really considering walking away from meteorites due to what I feel is an exclusive group who is unwilling to allow someone like me who honestly wants to learn from you all to take part. Yes, I can do it on my own, but I would rather learn from people who know what they are doing and learn how to do it right instead of blindly stumbling along before I get it right. Hope everyone is good and had a safe 4th of July. Greg C. --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Michael Farmer wrote: > From: Michael Farmer > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, "Greg Catterton" > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 10:30 PM > > Greg, you seem to have a good heart, but you are coming off > as very nasty. > Just go hunt, I learned on my own, most people learn by > doing. My first real fall was Monahans, then months later > Portales, I learned on the spot, alone, it was every man for > himself. > We make a living at this, now you are selling meteorites > and gloating and throwing sand in the eyes of the "big > dealers" on prices. Do you think this will help your > chances? Come on, I spent ~$50,000 a year on hunts, and let > me tell you, I must recoup this in sales, or I will be > living in a cardboard box. Your emails harping on overpriced > dealers are not falling on deaf ears. Go ahead, do a hunt > yourself, see what the costs are for stones found, and you > would find that most in West lost money, even those who > found stones! > Get over it, take a chance, do it. I am really not > interested in training my competition, so I am not too keen > to take people with me. This is not meant to be mean, but > common sense. > Michael Farmer > > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Greg Catterton > wrote: > > > From: Greg Catterton > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the > Arizona Fall > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 8:25 PM > > > > Im glad you seem to understand where I am coming from, > this > > was not meant as an attack, just my frustration at not > being > > able to join in on what I would consider a great > learning > > experience. > > When I was told it was being kept secret, I felt > pretty > > upset at the fact that it seemed to be that something > of a > > high scholl clique only type thing. > > I am newer at this and want to take up as many things > like > > this as I can to better learn and understand things > and > > thought with the gorup out there currently, I could > learn > > alot while contributing in a good manner. > > > > I have asked many hunters to tag along on trips, > becouse I > > dont know how to do it and really want to learn. each > time I > > have been told no. > > > > I want to learn how to do this right and if none of > these > > guys are willing to help me out or anyone else who > wants to > > learn how to do it right, why should I even stay in > this > > hobby? > > > > Greg C. > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Jack Schrader > > wrote: > > > > > From: Jack Schrader > > > Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the > Arizona > > Fall > > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 5:35 PM > > > > > > Dear list members. > > > > > > I have today received an email from a person.? > He > > sent the > > > message to the list and not to me personally so > you > > already > > > know who this person is.? If he had sent the > message > > to me > > > personally, I would have treated it with > complete > > > confidentiality.? I feel that it is important > to > > share the > > > information I shared with him with the members > of > > this > > > list.? Most of the people on this list have > been > > involved > > > with the science of meteorites for many years > and > > have > > > already gained the knowledge and wisdom that can > only > > come > > > from years of experience. This list has been > very > > fortunate > > > to have been joined by people who are new to the > > science and > > > to the wonderful hobby of collecting > meteorites.? His > > email > > > was not sent to be malicious but was sent out of > > frustration > > > and out of his enthusiastic desire to be able to > look > > for a > > > new meteorite and to actually find one for > himself..? > > These > > > people who hold this intense enthusiasm are the > people > > we > > > need in this science, this > > >? hobby. This is the dream we all hold dear, to > > venture out, > > > find and be the first one to touch a stone that > > acually fell > > > to earth from space.? I have copied the > information I > > sent > > > to him below.? I hope others who are > experiencing > > similar > > > feelings of frustration at the present time will > > benefit > > > from this as well. > > > > > > > > > Hello.? This fall is a very rare, a very > important > > and > > > historic fall for this state and for the > University > > of > > > Arizona in particular as the site is very > literally in > > their > > > own back yard.? It is vitally important that the > area > > be > > > protected for only as long as it takes to > properly > > record > > > and document the fall.? I have seen what happens > to > > an area > > > when?the location?is announced publicly too > early.? > > The > > > area is almost immediately deluged and over run > with > > not > > > only the true professional meteorite hunters who > are > > > actually trying to do something good and recover > the > > stones > > > properly with GPS coordinates and photographic > > evidence of > > > the stones in situ but with every treasure seeker > and > > rock > > > hunter and curiosity seeker who could care less > about > > the > > > science but more about simply having something > cool to > > show > > > off to their friends.? This is okay too and > there is > > > absolutely nothing wrong with this but right now > is > > not the > > > time for this.? This area is presently > > >? pristine and kin to a very delicate > > archaeological site.? > > > The archaeologists need to do the proper work in > the > > area > > > before the "pot > > > hunters" find it and destroy any information > that > > could > > > otherwise be learned from the site.? My > intention is > > > certainly not simply just for the money or the > stones > > that > > > can be recovered.? When you really give this > some > > thought, > > > you will realize that I did not have to tell a > single > > soul > > > about this.? I discovered this remote area > entirely > > on my > > > own using the knowledge that I have gained over > many > > years > > > of hunting meteorites. I could have very easily > kept > > this > > > site to myself and hunted it for months and > months.? > > But > > > the path I chose was simply to do the right > thing.? I > > made > > > a proper announcement and I have begun > preparations > > for > > > conducting a proper search and recording of the > fall > > site.? > > > Please do not worry.? You will get your > opportunity > > to hunt > > > the area.? There will be stones in this area to > be > > > recovered for years to come and you will find > yours.? > > And > > > they will be free, you will not have to buy > > anything.? The > > > area as any area where meteorite have > > >? fallen either in recent or in ancient times is > > impossible > > > to > > > hunt out completely.? I am just simply asking > for a > > little > > > time that it takes to be able to properly record > this > > fall > > > site so the information may be available to the > > University > > > of Arizona and to any other institutions and > > meteoriticists > > > in the world who may have an interest in the work > that > > we > > > will be doing.? It is too important to risk > > destroying the > > > information at this point not only for the > science > > that can > > > be gained from the area but for the generations > to > > come who > > > may have an interest in learning more about the > > dynamics of > > > meteors and the variety of strewn field types > that > > they > > > create.? I do appreciate your understanding.? > My > > very best > > > wishes, Dr. Jack Schrader > > > > > > > > > > > > ? ? ? > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > > > ? ? ? > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From cynapse at charter.net Mon Jul 6 15:39:40 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:39:40 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA! In-Reply-To: <599339.61653.qm@web110615.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <599339.61653.qm@web110615.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3kk4551cj9s79at0jo49d7bhugsi5qv4re@4ax.com> On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 10:40:56 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > >Alright you aspiring meteorite hunters on the east coast, a large fireball with explosions that shook houses in PA was reported at 1:10 am this morning! If there are explosions, it is close and can be found. >No excuses, as some of us are busy in Arizona. >Michael Farmer > >http://www.wgal.com/news/19966650/detail.html More: http://weblogs.marylandweather.com/2009/07/a_masondixon_meteor.html A Mason-Dixon meteor? We have been receiving reports today of a likely meteor over north-central Maryland and southern Pennsylvania early Monday morning. (Not the one in the Flickr.com image above.) Below are the first reports we have received. If you heard or saw something similar, around the same time, please leave a comment. Include the time, your location, which direction you saw the object or flash, a description of what you saw, and note any boom or other sound you heard, as well as the time lapse between flash and boom. The York Dispatch: In York County, Pa., police officers from Penn Township, Southwestern Regional and Newberry Township reported seeing a flash and hearing a boom around 1:15 a.m. Monday, July 6, according to local 911 centers. Officials in Harford County, Md. also reported seeing a flash and hearing a boom near the Mason-Dixon Line. Capital Gazette: An Annapolis city police officer reported that she and her partner both saw what she described as a "bright blue light in the sky" just after midnight. It was followed by "a light with a tail, falling from the sky," according to our informant. Annapolis police reported hearing a similar report on Baltimore County police radio. Gary Moon, reporting to The Sun's News Tips: "I heard and felt a deep earth blast similar to an earthquake, which shook my home in Glen Rock, Pa., early Monday morning. I thought I would hear MUCH more about this one ... nothing." Deborah Markow, Havre de Grace: "Last night, couldn't sleep, went out on back deck, laid on lounge, eyes closed and then it was like someone pointed a flash light in my eyes it was so bright. I saw another one streak through the sky ... It was one of the most thrilling sights to behold a ball of fire flying through the sky." I have not yet seen any meteor reports of this event on the American Meteor Society's Fireball Sightings Log, but it's early yet, and this fireball, coming in the wee hours after a long holiday, probably did not catch many people out and about. Which makes reports like these, and yours, all the more important. If you saw this object, be sure to leave a report with the AMS, too. But judging from the descriptions, it almost certainly was a fireball, which is simply an especially bright meteor, vaporizing with an impressive flash. Here's a pretty good example on video. They are sometimes followed by a sonic boom, which would explain the booming noises in the reports. Some fireball observers - though none yet for this event - also report a crackling or hissing sound that is concurrent with the meteor's flash and which has never been fully explained scientifically. Although meteor rates begin to pick up in July, this is not the peak time for any particular meteor shower. It seems likely this was a "sporadic," or isolated meteor that just happened to be especially big and bright. Big ones like this are always unexpected, always startling to witness, and always a thrill. From jamie.kimberley at jhu.edu Mon Jul 6 13:53:52 2009 From: jamie.kimberley at jhu.edu (Jamie Kimberley) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 13:53:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA! In-Reply-To: <599339.61653.qm@web110615.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <599339.61653.qm@web110615.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I believe that I saw this fireball, though I think it was closer to 1:00 AM. I was traveling south on I-95 in Delaware when I saw a bright streak (looked like some fragmentation) to my right (was in the passenger side of a car). I can probably find my location on google maps as I was probably 1/2 mile north of a toll plaza. let me know if this would be useful. Thanks, Jamie On Mon, 6 Jul 2009, Michael Farmer wrote: > > Alright you aspiring meteorite hunters on the east coast, a large > fireball with explosions that shook houses in PA was reported at > 1:10 am this morning! If there are explosions, it is close and can > be found. No excuses, as some of us are busy in Arizona. Michael > Farmer > > http://www.wgal.com/news/19966650/detail.html > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > "It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes."--Douglas Adams __________________ Jamie Kimberley Postdoctoral Fellow Department of Mechanical Engineering The Johns Hopkins University Office: 410.516.5162 Mobile: 217.621.8272 Fax: 410.516.4316 E-Mail:jamie.kimberley at jhu.edu From damoclid at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 14:55:14 2009 From: damoclid at yahoo.com (Richard Kowalski) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 11:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA! Message-ID: <583819.86158.qm@web33902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Interesting that most of the reports state around 1:10 - 1:15, with the exception of the police officers, who report it occurred just after midnight. So much for them being "trained observers". -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA #1081 From meteoritehunter at comcast.net Mon Jul 6 14:59:18 2009 From: meteoritehunter at comcast.net (Michael Farmer) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 11:59:18 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA! In-Reply-To: <583819.86158.qm@web33902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <583819.86158.qm@web33902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <80543FCE-2426-464A-B9F0-53FF8CF79352@comcast.net> Is there any time zone difference in that area or is it all eastern standard? Michael Sent from my iPhone Michael On Jul 6, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Richard Kowalski wrote: > > Interesting that most of the reports state around 1:10 - 1:15, with > the exception of the police officers, who report it occurred just > after midnight. So much for them being "trained observers". > > -- > Richard Kowalski > http://fullmoonphotography.net > IMCA #1081 > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 15:04:05 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 12:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA! Message-ID: <739106.8050.qm@web46413.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I am making plans to head there now, I know people in the area who I have talked to, I think it is very close to york county fall. Anyone interested in joining me for this to help search for it? Greg C. --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Michael Farmer wrote: > From: Michael Farmer > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA! > To: "Richard Kowalski" > Cc: "meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com" > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 2:59 PM > Is there any time zone difference in > that area or is it all eastern standard? > Michael > > Sent from my iPhone > Michael > > > On Jul 6, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Richard Kowalski > wrote: > > > > > Interesting that most of the reports state around 1:10 > - 1:15, with the exception of the police officers, who > report it occurred just after midnight. So much for them > being "trained observers". > > > > -- > > Richard Kowalski > > http://fullmoonphotography.net > > IMCA #1081 > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteoriteguy at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 15:06:29 2009 From: meteoriteguy at yahoo.com (Michael Farmer) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 12:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA! Message-ID: <201688.511.qm@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Greg good luck I may see you there depending on what turns up today. See how things turn on a dime. Should I come up there I would love to meet you. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone Michael On Jul 6, 2009, at 12:04 PM, Greg Catterton wrote: I am making plans to head there now, I know people in the area who I have talked to, I think it is very close to york county fall. Anyone interested in joining me for this to help search for it? Greg C. --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Michael Farmer wrote: From: Michael Farmer Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA! To: "Richard Kowalski" Cc: "meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com" Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 2:59 PM Is there any time zone difference in that area or is it all eastern standard? Michael Sent from my iPhone Michael On Jul 6, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Richard Kowalski wrote: Interesting that most of the reports state around 1:10 - 1:15, with the exception of the police officers, who report it occurred just after midnight. So much for them being "trained observers". -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA #1081 ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From damoclid at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 15:22:50 2009 From: damoclid at yahoo.com (Richard Kowalski) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 12:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA! Message-ID: <475701.58641.qm@web33901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Good Luck Greg. Have fun! Mike, its all be Eastern Daylight Time in that area. -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA #1081 From lintonius at earthlink.net Mon Jul 6 15:25:09 2009 From: lintonius at earthlink.net (Linton Rohr) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 12:25:09 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Arizona's Newest Fall References: Message-ID: <4C5BD3E89F5942A1A978D3F763F487AC@D190TH71> Congratulations Jack! Thanks to you and Michael for keeping us informed. When the time is right, perhaps this can be my first hunt. In the meantime, best wishes to all of you out there. :^) Linton From dave at fallingrocks.com Mon Jul 6 15:55:57 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 15:55:57 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone haveinfo on these? (or specimens?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23600EB234CE4ED0ABCF461EB2C981A8@meteorroom> Mike/All, The boy in Mbale was photographed with the small stone in his hand and was also in some video footage taken at the time of the fall by the Dutch group. Both can be seen here: http://www.fallingrocks.com/Collections/Mbale.htm, but I gather that no one knows where that 3 gram stone is today. Jean Baptiste-Biot also recorded testimony from a man who claimed to have been struck in the arm by a L'Aigle stone. Given the veracity, worldwide acceptance and historic nature of his report, there's probably a better than average chance it's true, but we'll never know. Some info here: http://www.fallingrocks.com/Collections/L'Aigle.htm. All best, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Galactic Stone & Ironworks Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 12:19 PM To: Meteorite List Subject: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone haveinfo on these? (or specimens?) Hi List and Hammer Fans, (MC Hammer fans please skip this post - this is about Hammer Meteorites, not rappers) While reading through Grady's Catalogue of Meteorites last night, I ran across some entries that describe possible hammer falls. I was wondering if someone here on the List might have more information about them, or possibly a specimen (or photo). Mbale - everyone knows it's a hammer because it struck many buildings. But, the entry in the Catalogue of Mets states - "...The stones hit several buildings, but nobody was hurt, although a young boy was apparently hit on the head..." It then goes on to say that an expedition by the Dutch Meteor Society investigated the fall and documented 48 impact locations. Did they (or anyone) investigate the claim of the boy being hit on the head? Since everyone refers to Sylacauga as the only meteorite documented to strike a human being in modern times, then I am I right to assume that the Mbale boy was debunked or never proven? ... Mhow (yes, I was reading through the M's!) - Mhow is an obscure L6 fall from India. On Feb 16, 1827 at 15:00 hrs local time, 4 or 5 stones fell and that one struck a tree and another wounded a man. This was an L6 chondrite. Was this claim ever investigated at any time? ... Neagari - Feb 18, 1995 Japanese fall, L6 chondrite. The Catalogue of Mets states : "...The next morning, in the city of Neagari, Mr. K. Sasatani found a hole in the boot of his car and meteorite fragments were on and inside the boot." For those of us West of the Big Pond, a car boot is a car trunk. ;) I guess it doesn't matter if this claim was substantiated or not because the finder owns the entire main mass and only a small type specimen exists at the Tokyo Museum. So this one is unattainable - unless someone wants to offer Mr. Sasatani some sake and loosen him up to an offer. ;) ... I'm sure I'll run across more of these as I make my way through the Catalogue. Best regards and clear skies, MikeG -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From cdtucson at cox.net Mon Jul 6 16:17:55 2009 From: cdtucson at cox.net (cdtucson at cox.net) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 13:17:55 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Az hunted out? In-Reply-To: <201688.511.qm@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090706161755.0TU8E.199495.imail@fed1rmwml44> Mike, Does this mean the new Az strewnfield is hunted out already? -- Carl or Debbie Esparza IMCA 5829 Meteoritemax ---- Michael Farmer wrote: > > Greg good luck I may see you there depending on what turns up today. > See how things turn on a dime. Should I come up there I would love to meet you. > Michael Farmer > > Sent from my iPhone > Michael > > > On Jul 6, 2009, at 12:04 PM, Greg Catterton wrote: > > > I am making plans to head there now, I know people in the area who I have talked to, I think it is very close to york county fall. > Anyone interested in joining me for this to help search for it? > > Greg C. > > --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Michael Farmer wrote: > > From: Michael Farmer > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA! > To: "Richard Kowalski" > Cc: "meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com" > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 2:59 PM > Is there any time zone difference in > that area or is it all eastern standard? > Michael > > Sent from my iPhone > Michael > > > On Jul 6, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Richard Kowalski > wrote: > > > Interesting that most of the reports state around 1:10 > - 1:15, with the exception of the police officers, who > report it occurred just after midnight. So much for them > being "trained observers". > > -- > Richard Kowalski > http://fullmoonphotography.net > IMCA #1081 > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From twelker at alaska.net Mon Jul 6 15:18:38 2009 From: twelker at alaska.net (Eric Twelker) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:18:38 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Missing Meteorite Message-ID: <8F948E2C-2065-4C52-8E2C-76C90098BCB7@alaska.net> Hi List I am missing two meteorites from the US Mail--an ~800g Gujba fragment and a ~120g Gujba fragment. DHL tossed these in the mail because they cut service to my town and don't come here any more. (Thanks DHL--I won't recommend your crappy service to anyone.) While it is probable that they are truly lost, there is a slight chance that they have been stolen and could appear in the marketplace. If list members would keep their eyes open for these and let me know, I would appreciate it. Thanks! Eric Twelker http://www.meteoritemarket.com From meteoriteguy at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 16:23:22 2009 From: meteoriteguy at yahoo.com (Michael Farmer) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 13:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Az hunted out? Message-ID: <349198.74273.qm@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No Carl it doesn't. I am not the only meteorite hunter out here. The team might survive without me as they did when I was in Europe. The group I work with are all professionals and can all work alone. We don't need that 24/7 hand holding that some like. Jack found the meteorite and can continue should I leave. Michael Sent from my iPhone Michael On Jul 6, 2009, at 1:17 PM, wrote: Mike, Does this mean the new Az strewnfield is hunted out already? -- Carl or Debbie Esparza IMCA 5829 Meteoritemax ---- Michael Farmer wrote: Greg good luck I may see you there depending on what turns up today. See how things turn on a dime. Should I come up there I would love to meet you. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone Michael On Jul 6, 2009, at 12:04 PM, Greg Catterton wrote: I am making plans to head there now, I know people in the area who I have talked to, I think it is very close to york county fall. Anyone interested in joining me for this to help search for it? Greg C. --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Michael Farmer wrote: From: Michael Farmer Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA! To: "Richard Kowalski" Cc: "meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com" Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 2:59 PM Is there any time zone difference in that area or is it all eastern standard? Michael Sent from my iPhone Michael On Jul 6, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Richard Kowalski wrote: Interesting that most of the reports state around 1:10 - 1:15, with the exception of the police officers, who report it occurred just after midnight. So much for them being "trained observers". -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA #1081 ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 16:27:23 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (mstreman53 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 13:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Hunting in one's own "backyard"? Message-ID: <367116.97681.qm@web55207.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Well Richard, From one who did much of that and spends more time in the field than 98% of the folks reading this...IF you are independently wealthy don't have job, education, or family obligations ,have the free time to spend 24/7 on the search for 3 to 4 years and are willing to accept the odds of >10% of less success, willing to sleep in the cab of your truck, then sounds like you have a plan as good as any. If you want to improve your odds don't even start out until you have personally looked at/examined 500-1200 meteorites, reviewed the photos of 2000 more meteorites and 3000 meteor-wrongs, read 100-300 linear feet of journals including half of it plain ole mineralogy and petrology.? If you ever think you would like to take a short cut and just run down fireballs then to improve your odds some more,you'll need a fundamental survey in infra-sonics, seizmographic theory and how to locate and read seizmograms, Geo-science Information Systems human/eye physiology/psychological perception, navigation, including reading topographical maps and using a circular slide rule to compute displacement by winds aloft, a bit of trig and survey course on the techniques of surveying or artillery. Meteorology , physics plus a basic chemistry understanding--Folks WILL ask you questions on every imaginable topic.? Like it or not you will be an ambassador for science.? Accident Scene Investigation and Intervierw skills translate over to interviewing witnesses. To make meteorite hunting productive most casual hunters also hunt fossils, minerals, arrowheads and take wild life photos so they will have something to show for their time afield. Don't forget to include cemeteries in your search plan: grave spoils are better than stone walls in my opinion. You might take another more productive path and read the archives of the metlist. Re Moraines, rockwalls, rock piles, etc. Regards, Elton --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Richard Kowalski wrote: > From: Richard Kowalski > Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Hunting in one's own "backyard"? > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 5:45 AM > > As a relative newbie to this field, I've been pouring > through books, websites and videos on youtube learning more > about meteorites and meteorite hunting. > > There appears to be good information out there for the > beginning hunter to get started. It seems that the falls get > the attention and I understand the attraction of finding > fresh material immediately after a fall. However it strikes > me that just about anyone can hunt practically in their > backyard and have the search area all to themselves. > > In Richard Norton's _Rocks from Space_ in the chapter on > meteorite hunting, page 315 under "The Farm Belt" he wrote > "It has been more than 50 years since Harvey Nininger > successfully search the farms of the midwest for meteorites. > It's time to retrace his footsteps and try again. ... > Farmlands in Michigan Illinois, Ohio, Iowa, and Indiana were > barely touched by Nininger's search." > > I'm curious if anyone has made a concerted effort to repeat > his searches, both where he worked and in other areas? In > the same book, it is mentioned that early on Nininger simply > asked for permission to search through the rock piles that > accumulate on just about every farm. It would seem to me > that there are many, many farms in just about every state > that could hold a cache of meteorites that are simply > weathering away because no one has taken the time to look > for and recover them. > > Maybe this type of hunting is not as sexy as hunting for > fragments that brand new fall with their sleek fusion crust, > but then again, one wouldn't have to travel across the > country or around the world just to start searching and then > be in a race to find fragments and individuals before a > competitor does. > > I may be missing something here but I'd be interested in > hearing how many hunters actually do this, if any, and how > often they turn up a new meteorite. > > Thanks > > -- > Richard Kowalski > http://fullmoonphotography.net > IMCA #1081 > > > ? ? ? > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From peterscherff at rcn.com Mon Jul 6 16:19:21 2009 From: peterscherff at rcn.com (Peter Scherff) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 16:19:21 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone have info on these? (or specimens?) In-Reply-To: <782958.23052.qm@web55202.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <782958.23052.qm@web55202.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004f01c9fe77$0ce928a0$26bb79e0$@com> Hi Elton, The photo of the car that the Neagari meteorite hit is still up. http://earth.s.kanazawa-u.ac.jp/ishiwata/labo/neagariUS.html Thanks, Peter -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Mr EMan Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:10 PM To: Meteorite List; Galactic Stone & Ironworks Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone have info on these? (or specimens?) > Neagari - Feb 18, 1995 Japanese fall, L6 chondrite.? > The Catalogue of Mets states : "...The next morning, in the city of Neagari, Mr. K. Sasatani found a hole in the boot of his car and meteorite fragments were on and inside the boot." Yes the claim was substantiated and an interesting thing about this car hit was that the stone was apparently spinning as it left a pin-wheel pattern in the scraped paint. At one time there were photos on the web. I believe he found the main mass lying in the street and it matched it to the the indentation in the "boot". Yes there was a puncture. Elton ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From peterscherff at rcn.com Mon Jul 6 16:31:47 2009 From: peterscherff at rcn.com (Peter Scherff) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 16:31:47 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone have info on these? (or specimens?) In-Reply-To: <782958.23052.qm@web55202.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <782958.23052.qm@web55202.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005101c9fe78$c90ef0e0$5b2cd2a0$@com> Hi Elton, The photo of the car that the Neagari meteorite hit is still up. http://earth.s.kanazawa-u.ac.jp/ishiwata/labo/neagariUS.html Thanks, Peter -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Mr EMan Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:10 PM To: Meteorite List; Galactic Stone & Ironworks Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone have info on these? (or specimens?) > Neagari - Feb 18, 1995 Japanese fall, L6 chondrite.? > The Catalogue of Mets states : "...The next morning, in the city of Neagari, Mr. K. Sasatani found a hole in the boot of his car and meteorite fragments were on and inside the boot." Yes the claim was substantiated and an interesting thing about this car hit was that the stone was apparently spinning as it left a pin-wheel pattern in the scraped paint. At one time there were photos on the web. I believe he found the main mass lying in the street and it matched it to the the indentation in the "boot". Yes there was a puncture. Elton ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 16:37:16 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 13:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA!--MD or WV more likely Message-ID: <900905.21820.qm@web55203.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I agree with Darren's new info. This is probably not in PA. I have started plots and this looks more like over Maryland's Serpentine Barrens/Belt or more southerly. Which may include West Virginia. CAUTION: This could very well be in the vicinity of Camp David when more info is confirmed. Before you leave for the region you might want to see what we can find to narrow it down when we get sensor data. Then again at least the Amish don't shoot trespassers. Elton --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Darren Garrison wrote: > From: Darren Garrison > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA! > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 3:39 PM > On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 10:40:56 -0700 > (PDT), you wrote: > > > > >Alright you aspiring meteorite hunters on the east > coast, a large fireball with explosions that shook houses in > PA was reported at 1:10 am this morning! If there are > explosions, it is close and can be found. > >No excuses, as some of us are busy in Arizona. > >Michael Farmer > > > >http://www.wgal.com/news/19966650/detail.html > > More: > > http://weblogs.marylandweather.com/2009/07/a_masondixon_meteor.html > > A Mason-Dixon meteor? > > We have been receiving reports today of a likely meteor > over north-central > Maryland and southern Pennsylvania early Monday morning. > (Not the one in the > Flickr.com image above.) > > Below are the first reports we have received. If you heard > or saw something > similar, around the same time, please leave a comment. > Include the time, your > location, which direction you saw the object or flash, a > description of what you > saw, and note any boom or other sound you heard, as well as > the time lapse > between flash and boom. > > The York Dispatch:? In York County, Pa., police > officers from Penn Township, > Southwestern Regional and Newberry Township reported seeing > a flash and hearing > a boom around 1:15 a.m. Monday, July 6, according to local > 911 centers. > Officials in Harford County, Md. also reported seeing a > flash and hearing a boom > near the Mason-Dixon Line. > > Capital Gazette: An Annapolis city police officer reported > that she and her > partner both saw what she described as a "bright blue light > in the sky" just > after midnight. It was followed by "a light with a tail, > falling from the sky," > according to our informant. Annapolis police reported > hearing a similar report > on Baltimore County police radio. > > Gary Moon, reporting to The Sun's News Tips: "I heard and > felt a deep earth > blast similar to an earthquake, which shook my home in Glen > Rock, Pa., early > Monday morning. I thought I would hear MUCH more about this > one ... nothing." > > Deborah Markow, Havre de Grace: "Last night, couldn't > sleep, went out on back > deck, laid on lounge, eyes closed and then it was like > someone pointed a flash > light in my eyes it was so bright. I saw another one streak > through the sky ... > It was one of the most thrilling sights to behold a ball of > fire flying through > the sky." > > I have not yet seen any meteor reports of this event on the > American Meteor > Society's Fireball Sightings Log, but it's early yet, and > this fireball, coming > in the wee hours after a long holiday, probably did not > catch many people out > and about. > > Which makes reports like these, and yours, all the more > important. If you saw > this object, be sure to leave a report with the AMS, too. > > But judging from the descriptions, it almost certainly was > a fireball, which is > simply an especially bright meteor, vaporizing with an > impressive flash. > > Here's a pretty good example on video. > > They are sometimes followed by a sonic boom, which would > explain the booming > noises in the reports. Some fireball observers - though > none yet for this event > - also report a crackling or hissing sound that is > concurrent with the meteor's > flash and which has never been fully explained > scientifically. > > Although meteor rates begin to pick up in July, this is not > the peak time for > any particular meteor shower. It seems likely this was a > "sporadic," or isolated > meteor that just happened to be especially big and bright. > Big ones like this > are always unexpected, always startling to witness, and > always a thrill. > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 16:40:22 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 13:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone have info on these? (or specimens?) Message-ID: <877618.28296.qm@web55206.mail.re4.yahoo.com> My Bad, Peter, I thought I remembered him having to pick some of it up off the ground, I didn't realize it had entered the trunk/boot. Thanks --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Peter Scherff wrote: > From: Peter Scherff > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone have info on these? (or specimens?) > To: "'Mr EMan'" , "'Meteorite List'" , "'Galactic Stone & Ironworks'" > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 4:19 PM > Hi Elton, > > ??? The photo of the car that the Neagari > meteorite hit is still up. > > http://earth.s.kanazawa-u.ac.jp/ishiwata/labo/neagariUS.html > > Thanks, > > Peter > > > -----Original Message----- > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] > On Behalf Of Mr EMan > Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:10 PM > To: Meteorite List; Galactic Stone & Ironworks > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer > Falls - Anyone have > info on these? (or specimens?) > > > > > Neagari - Feb 18, 1995 Japanese fall, L6 chondrite.? > > The Catalogue of Mets states : "...The next morning, > in the city of > Neagari, Mr. K. Sasatani found a hole in the boot of his > car and meteorite > fragments were on and inside the boot." > > Yes the claim was substantiated and an interesting thing > about this car hit > was that the stone was apparently spinning as it left a > pin-wheel pattern in > the scraped paint.? At one time there were photos on > the web. > > I believe he found the main mass lying in the street and it > matched it to > the the indentation in the "boot".? Yes there was a > puncture. > > Elton > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteoriteguy at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 16:47:02 2009 From: meteoriteguy at yahoo.com (Michael Farmer) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 13:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Oh my, take a look at this of you want a good laugh Message-ID: <73565.54333.qm@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Look what I found screwing around on youtube! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLq7mGRT170 Michael Farmer From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 16:57:58 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 13:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Oh my, take a look at this of you want a good laugh Message-ID: <943601.54271.qm@web46401.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> That is too funny! --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Michael Farmer wrote: > From: Michael Farmer > Subject: [meteorite-list] Oh my, take a look at this of you want a good laugh > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 4:47 PM > > Look what I found screwing around on youtube! > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLq7mGRT170 > > Michael Farmer > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 17:01:05 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 14:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA!--MD or WV more likely Message-ID: <970000.44417.qm@web55206.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Disregard the Camp David caution as I don't believe it traveled that far. Elton --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Mr EMan wrote: > From: Mr EMan > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA!--MD or WV more likely > To: cynapse at charter.net, "metlist" > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 4:37 PM > > I agree with Darren's new info.? This is probably not > in PA. I have started plots and this looks more like over > Maryland's Serpentine Barrens/Belt or more southerly. Which > may include West Virginia. > > CAUTION:? This could very well be in the vicinity of > Camp David when more info is confirmed. > > Before you leave for the region you might want to see what > we can find to narrow it down when we get sensor data.? > Then again at least the Amish don't shoot trespassers. > > Elton From meteoriteguy at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 17:03:01 2009 From: meteoriteguy at yahoo.com (Michael Farmer) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 14:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA!--MD or WV more likely Message-ID: <780913.96792.qm@web110607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Elton, the loudest reports are from the PA Md border, quite a distance from WV. Why do you put it there and not north of Baltimore? mike --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Mr EMan wrote: > From: Mr EMan > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA!--MD or WV more likely > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 3:01 PM > > Disregard the Camp David caution as I don't believe it > traveled that far. > > Elton > > --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Mr EMan > wrote: > > > From: Mr EMan > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in > PA!--MD or WV more likely > > To: cynapse at charter.net, > "metlist" > > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 4:37 PM > > > > I agree with Darren's new info.? This is probably > not > > in PA. I have started plots and this looks more like > over > > Maryland's Serpentine Barrens/Belt or more southerly. > Which > > may include West Virginia. > > > > CAUTION:? This could very well be in the vicinity of > > Camp David when more info is confirmed. > > > > Before you leave for the region you might want to see > what > > we can find to narrow it down when we get sensor > data.? > > Then again at least the Amish don't shoot > trespassers. > > > > Elton > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From mikewren at gilanet.com Mon Jul 6 17:03:46 2009 From: mikewren at gilanet.com (michael cottingham) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 14:03:46 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: HIGHLIGHTS FOR AUCTIONS! 10% to 50% Off Until Weds/8th, MID SUMMER SALE! Message-ID: <261900DF-9D18-4B83-BB10-47830EBD3501@gilanet.com> Hello, Worth A look! I think this is one of my BEST SALES OF THE SUMMER! Rare Books, Rare Meteorites, A 10% to 50% Off Select Items. 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Thanks and Best Wishes Michael Cottingham From cynapse at charter.net Mon Jul 6 18:19:57 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:19:57 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Oh my, take a look at this of you want a good laugh In-Reply-To: <73565.54333.qm@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <73565.54333.qm@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Look at this video from the "related videos" column on that, where the wackjob proves that iron is attracted to magnets! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrRAW2NrVRo&feature=related From mlblood at cox.net Mon Jul 6 17:18:38 2009 From: mlblood at cox.net (Michael Blood) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:18:38 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone haveinfo on these? (or specimens?) In-Reply-To: <23600EB234CE4ED0ABCF461EB2C981A8@meteorroom> Message-ID: Thanks, Dave, I have had L'Aigle on my hammer page since you Told me about it being a hammer. Very cool - of course, Your specimen is THE too cool L'Aigle! Best wishes, Michael On 7/6/09 12:55 PM, "Dave Gheesling" wrote: > Mike/All, > > The boy in Mbale was photographed with the small stone in his hand and was > also in some video footage taken at the time of the fall by the Dutch group. > Both can be seen here: http://www.fallingrocks.com/Collections/Mbale.htm, > but I gather that no one knows where that 3 gram stone is today. > > Jean Baptiste-Biot also recorded testimony from a man who claimed to have > been struck in the arm by a L'Aigle stone. Given the veracity, worldwide > acceptance and historic nature of his report, there's probably a better than > average chance it's true, but we'll never know. Some info here: > http://www.fallingrocks.com/Collections/L'Aigle.htm. > > All best, > > Dave > > www.fallingrocks.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Galactic > Stone & Ironworks > Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 12:19 PM > To: Meteorite List > Subject: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone haveinfo > on these? (or specimens?) > > Hi List and Hammer Fans, > > (MC Hammer fans please skip this post - this is about Hammer Meteorites, not > rappers) > > While reading through Grady's Catalogue of Meteorites last night, I ran > across some entries that describe possible hammer falls. I was wondering if > someone here on the List might have more information about them, or possibly > a specimen (or photo). > > Mbale - everyone knows it's a hammer because it struck many buildings. > > But, the entry in the Catalogue of Mets states - "...The stones hit several > buildings, but nobody was hurt, although a young boy was apparently hit on > the head..." > > It then goes on to say that an expedition by the Dutch Meteor Society > investigated the fall and documented 48 impact locations. Did they (or > anyone) investigate the claim of the boy being hit on the head? > Since everyone refers to Sylacauga as the only meteorite documented to > strike a human being in modern times, then I am I right to assume that the > Mbale boy was debunked or never proven? > > ... > > Mhow (yes, I was reading through the M's!) - Mhow is an obscure L6 fall from > India. On Feb 16, 1827 at 15:00 hrs local time, 4 or 5 stones fell and that > one struck a tree and another wounded a man. > This was an L6 chondrite. Was this claim ever investigated at any > time? > > ... > > Neagari - Feb 18, 1995 Japanese fall, L6 chondrite. The Catalogue of Mets > states : > > "...The next morning, in the city of Neagari, Mr. K. Sasatani found a hole > in the boot of his car and meteorite fragments were on and inside the boot." > > For those of us West of the Big Pond, a car boot is a car trunk. ;) > > I guess it doesn't matter if this claim was substantiated or not because the > finder owns the entire main mass and only a small type specimen exists at > the Tokyo Museum. So this one is unattainable - unless someone wants to > offer Mr. Sasatani some sake and loosen him up to an offer. ;) > > ... > > I'm sure I'll run across more of these as I make my way through the > Catalogue. > > Best regards and clear skies, > > MikeG > > -- > ......................................................... > Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) > Member of the Meteoritical Society. > Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com > .......................................................... > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From geoking at notkin.net Mon Jul 6 17:33:09 2009 From: geoking at notkin.net (Notkin) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 14:33:09 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Oh my, take a look at this of you want a good laugh In-Reply-To: <73565.54333.qm@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <73565.54333.qm@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <70654736-9FEE-4D0A-9228-26D90161F2E3@notkin.net> Mike Farmer posted: > Look what I found screwing around on youtube! > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLq7mGRT170 Hey Mike: I'm glad you had a good laugh over that segment. I thought it was the funniest thing I've seen in months. If you can't laugh at yourself, you shouldn't be working in television. I posted that clip on YouTube myself after the network sent it to me. I guess you're doing something right when a major network like VH1 spends the time and money to make a parody : ) Being on VH1 also introduced us to a ton of new viewers, so that was cool. I linked to the VH1 clip from our Meteorite Men website, but I don't think I ever posted it to the M-List. So, thank you for doing that for me. We always appreciate your support. Nanu, nanu! Regards, Geoff N. www.aerolite.org www.meteoritemen.com www.meteoriteblog.org From cynapse at charter.net Mon Jul 6 18:46:46 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:46:46 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA!--MD or WV more likely In-Reply-To: <970000.44417.qm@web55206.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <970000.44417.qm@web55206.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0kv45596q6k42eq78tpk5j75b0942rviqg@4ax.com> Are there any web sites that archive doppler radar readings? Beyond the few minutes to a couple of hours shown on local news/weather sites? That would be a great resource for trying to pin down a location (like was used with West). From damoclid at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 17:44:36 2009 From: damoclid at yahoo.com (Richard Kowalski) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 14:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Hunting in one's own "backyard"? Message-ID: <599205.88673.qm@web33903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks Elton, I never meant to disparage those who work tirelessly tracking down falls and find meteorites. I know a lot is involved in the venture and admire the work that they do. Especially when their work is scientifically rigorous and they properly record the data from the fall as is happening now with the fall near Tucson. I was curious if searching through farm rock piles might be a viable search method for those would-be hunters that for all the reasons you cite can't chase falls. There aren't many farms here in southern Arizona, so I wasn't planning on doing this myself. While I hope to be out in the field in the not too distant future, I'll admit I'm way too soft to do what most of you do. I prefer climbing into bed after a clear night at the telescope. Finding 1 to 10 new Near Earth Asteroids per night sounds a lot easier. Cheers -- Richard Kowalski Catalina Sky Survey Lunar and Planetary Laboratory University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/css/ From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 17:48:31 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 14:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA!--MD more likely Message-ID: <371171.977.qm@web46408.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Not many reports have come from MD, the ones I have seen are a bit off as regards to the time of the fall. Also I have read of the reports that the booms were best heard from PA area, closer to Southern Hanover. What is the normal time from the booms to impact? I understand it to be within 75 miles or so, is this correct? Greg C. --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Michael Farmer wrote: > From: Michael Farmer > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA!--MD or WV more likely > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, "Mr EMan" > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 5:03 PM > > Elton, the loudest reports are from the PA Md border, quite > a distance from WV. Why do you put it there and not north of > Baltimore? > mike > > > > --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Mr EMan > wrote: > > > From: Mr EMan > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in > PA!--MD or WV more likely > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 3:01 PM > > > > Disregard the Camp David caution as I don't believe > it > > traveled that far. > > > > Elton > > > > --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Mr EMan > > wrote: > > > > > From: Mr EMan > > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in > > PA!--MD or WV more likely > > > To: cynapse at charter.net, > > "metlist" > > > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 4:37 PM > > > > > > I agree with Darren's new info.? This is > probably > > not > > > in PA. I have started plots and this looks more > like > > over > > > Maryland's Serpentine Barrens/Belt or more > southerly. > > Which > > > may include West Virginia. > > > > > > CAUTION:? This could very well be in the > vicinity of > > > Camp David when more info is confirmed. > > > > > > Before you leave for the region you might want to > see > > what > > > we can find to narrow it down when we get sensor > > data.? > > > Then again at least the Amish don't shoot > > trespassers. > > > > > > Elton > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteoritemike at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 18:47:50 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 18:47:50 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Missing Meteorite In-Reply-To: <8F948E2C-2065-4C52-8E2C-76C90098BCB7@alaska.net> References: <8F948E2C-2065-4C52-8E2C-76C90098BCB7@alaska.net> Message-ID: I hate to hear that Eric, that stinks. :( Do you have no recourse with DHL? Are they allowed to do that with your packages? (apparently they think so) Best regards and I hope you get them back, MikeG On 7/6/09, Eric Twelker wrote: > Hi List > > I am missing two meteorites from the US Mail--an ~800g Gujba fragment > and a ~120g Gujba fragment. DHL tossed these in the mail because they > cut service to my town and don't come here any more. (Thanks DHL--I > won't recommend your crappy service to anyone.) While it is probable > that they are truly lost, there is a slight chance that they have been > stolen and could appear in the marketplace. If list members would > keep their eyes open for these and let me know, I would appreciate > it. Thanks! > > Eric Twelker > http://www.meteoritemarket.com > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From cdtucson at cox.net Mon Jul 6 19:05:27 2009 From: cdtucson at cox.net (cdtucson at cox.net) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 16:05:27 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Az hunted out? In-Reply-To: <349198.74273.qm@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090706190527.PX74O.202107.imail@fed1rmwml44> Mike, I'm sure I speak for the group that this is seriously saddening news. You don't hold hands with the fellows? -- Carl or Debbie Esparza IMCA 5829 Meteoritemax ---- Michael Farmer wrote: > > No Carl it doesn't. I am not the only meteorite hunter out here. The team might survive without me as they did when I was in Europe. The group > I work with are all professionals and can all work alone. We don't need that 24/7 hand holding that some like. Jack found the meteorite and can continue should I leave. > Michael > > Sent from my iPhone > Michael > > > On Jul 6, 2009, at 1:17 PM, wrote: > > Mike, Does this mean the new Az strewnfield is hunted out already? > -- > Carl or Debbie Esparza > IMCA 5829 > Meteoritemax > > > ---- Michael Farmer wrote: > > Greg good luck I may see you there depending on what turns up today. > See how things turn on a dime. Should I come up there I would love to meet you. > Michael Farmer > > Sent from my iPhone > Michael > > > On Jul 6, 2009, at 12:04 PM, Greg Catterton wrote: > > > I am making plans to head there now, I know people in the area who I have talked to, I think it is very close to york county fall. > Anyone interested in joining me for this to help search for it? > > Greg C. > > --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Michael Farmer wrote: > > From: Michael Farmer > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA! > To: "Richard Kowalski" > Cc: "meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com" > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 2:59 PM > Is there any time zone difference in > that area or is it all eastern standard? > Michael > > Sent from my iPhone > Michael > > > On Jul 6, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Richard Kowalski > wrote: > > > Interesting that most of the reports state around 1:10 > - 1:15, with the exception of the police officers, who > report it occurred just after midnight. So much for them > being "trained observers". > > -- > Richard Kowalski > http://fullmoonphotography.net > IMCA #1081 > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 19:11:33 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 16:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA! Perhaps near Delta? Message-ID: <750687.20508.qm@web46415.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I am thinking perhaps this is within 75 miles of Delta PA from what I have been able to figure out. Anyone else get anymore news or information? Greg C. --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Greg Catterton wrote: > From: Greg Catterton > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA!--MD more likely > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 5:48 PM > > Not many reports have come from MD, the ones I have seen > are a bit off as regards to the time of the fall. > Also I have read of the reports that the booms were best > heard from PA area, closer to Southern Hanover. What is the > normal time from the booms to impact? I understand it to be > within 75 miles or so, is this correct? > > Greg C. > > > --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Michael Farmer > wrote: > > > From: Michael Farmer > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in > PA!--MD or WV more likely > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, > "Mr EMan" > > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 5:03 PM > > > > Elton, the loudest reports are from the PA Md border, > quite > > a distance from WV. Why do you put it there and not > north of > > Baltimore? > > mike > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Mr EMan > > wrote: > > > > > From: Mr EMan > > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in > > PA!--MD or WV more likely > > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 3:01 PM > > > > > > Disregard the Camp David caution as I don't > believe > > it > > > traveled that far. > > > > > > Elton > > > > > > --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Mr EMan > > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: Mr EMan > > > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball > in > > > PA!--MD or WV more likely > > > > To: cynapse at charter.net, > > > "metlist" > > > > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 4:37 PM > > > > > > > > I agree with Darren's new info.? This is > > probably > > > not > > > > in PA. I have started plots and this looks > more > > like > > > over > > > > Maryland's Serpentine Barrens/Belt or more > > southerly. > > > Which > > > > may include West Virginia. > > > > > > > > CAUTION:? This could very well be in the > > vicinity of > > > > Camp David when more info is confirmed. > > > > > > > > Before you leave for the region you might > want to > > see > > > what > > > > we can find to narrow it down when we get > sensor > > > data.? > > > > Then again at least the Amish don't shoot > > > trespassers. > > > > > > > > Elton > > > ______________________________________________ > > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > ? ? ? > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteoritehunter at comcast.net Mon Jul 6 19:10:09 2009 From: meteoritehunter at comcast.net (Michael Farmer) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 16:10:09 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Az hunted out? In-Reply-To: <20090706190527.PX74O.202107.imail@fed1rmwml44> References: <20090706190527.PX74O.202107.imail@fed1rmwml44> Message-ID: Carl If you Spent half as much time hunting as you spend talking this kind of crap you might just find something. Sent from my iPhone Michael On Jul 6, 2009, at 4:05 PM, wrote: > Mike, > I'm sure I speak for the group that this is seriously saddening > news. You don't hold hands with the fellows? > -- > Carl or Debbie Esparza > IMCA 5829 > Meteoritemax > > > ---- Michael Farmer wrote: >> >> No Carl it doesn't. I am not the only meteorite hunter out here. >> The team might survive without me as they did when I was in Europe. >> The group >> I work with are all professionals and can all work alone. We don't >> need that 24/7 hand holding that some like. Jack found the >> meteorite and can continue should I leave. >> Michael >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> Michael >> >> >> On Jul 6, 2009, at 1:17 PM, wrote: >> >> Mike, Does this mean the new Az strewnfield is hunted out already? >> -- >> Carl or Debbie Esparza >> IMCA 5829 >> Meteoritemax >> >> >> ---- Michael Farmer wrote: >> >> Greg good luck I may see you there depending on what turns up today. >> See how things turn on a dime. Should I come up there I would love >> to meet you. >> Michael Farmer >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> Michael >> >> >> On Jul 6, 2009, at 12:04 PM, Greg Catterton > > wrote: >> >> >> I am making plans to head there now, I know people in the area who >> I have talked to, I think it is very close to york county fall. >> Anyone interested in joining me for this to help search for it? >> >> Greg C. >> >> --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Michael Farmer >> wrote: >> >> From: Michael Farmer >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA! >> To: "Richard Kowalski" >> Cc: "meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com" > > >> Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 2:59 PM >> Is there any time zone difference in >> that area or is it all eastern standard? >> Michael >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> Michael >> >> >> On Jul 6, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Richard Kowalski >> wrote: >> >> >> Interesting that most of the reports state around 1:10 >> - 1:15, with the exception of the police officers, who >> report it occurred just after midnight. So much for them >> being "trained observers". >> >> -- >> Richard Kowalski >> http://fullmoonphotography.net >> IMCA #1081 >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 20:07:47 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 17:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA! Perhaps near Delta? video Message-ID: <814451.44446.qm@web46405.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Video from the local news there, has interviews with people who witnesed the fall. http://www.wgal.com/video/19971301/index.html Im pretty sure now that this is close to the area of Delta PA. Greg C. --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Greg Catterton wrote: > From: Greg Catterton > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in PA! Perhaps near Delta? > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 7:11 PM > > I am thinking perhaps this is within 75 miles of Delta PA > from what I have been able to figure out. > Anyone else get anymore news or information? > > Greg C. > > --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Greg Catterton > wrote: > > > From: Greg Catterton > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in > PA!--MD more likely > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 5:48 PM > > > > Not many reports have come from MD, the ones I have > seen > > are a bit off as regards to the time of the fall. > > Also I have read of the reports that the booms were > best > > heard from PA area, closer to Southern Hanover. What > is the > > normal time from the booms to impact? I understand it > to be > > within 75 miles or so, is this correct? > > > > Greg C. > > > > > > --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Michael Farmer > > wrote: > > > > > From: Michael Farmer > > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball in > > PA!--MD or WV more likely > > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, > > "Mr EMan" > > > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 5:03 PM > > > > > > Elton, the loudest reports are from the PA Md > border, > > quite > > > a distance from WV. Why do you put it there and > not > > north of > > > Baltimore? > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Mr EMan > > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: Mr EMan > > > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball > in > > > PA!--MD or WV more likely > > > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 3:01 PM > > > > > > > > Disregard the Camp David caution as I don't > > believe > > > it > > > > traveled that far. > > > > > > > > Elton > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Mr EMan > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Mr EMan > > > > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large > fireball > > in > > > > PA!--MD or WV more likely > > > > > To: cynapse at charter.net, > > > > "metlist" > > > > > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 4:37 PM > > > > > > > > > > I agree with Darren's new info.? This > is > > > probably > > > > not > > > > > in PA. I have started plots and this > looks > > more > > > like > > > > over > > > > > Maryland's Serpentine Barrens/Belt or > more > > > southerly. > > > > Which > > > > > may include West Virginia. > > > > > > > > > > CAUTION:? This could very well be in > the > > > vicinity of > > > > > Camp David when more info is > confirmed. > > > > > > > > > > Before you leave for the region you > might > > want to > > > see > > > > what > > > > > we can find to narrow it down when we > get > > sensor > > > > data.? > > > > > Then again at least the Amish don't > shoot > > > > trespassers. > > > > > > > > > > Elton > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > > > ? ? ? > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > ? ? ? > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From almitt at kconline.com Mon Jul 6 20:15:37 2009 From: almitt at kconline.com (al mitt) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 20:15:37 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Old men say to Greg C. was Arizona Fall -detailed... In-Reply-To: <005501c9fe62$51ced790$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> References: <208937.61663.qm@web46404.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <005501c9fe62$51ced790$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: <4215A0605DE34C92AB24D4B90CBE0AF4@StarmanPC> Hi Martin and all, Very well put and something we all should save and read a couple of times a year!! Your so many times right on with your thinking. --AL Mitterling ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Altmann" To: Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Old men say to Greg C. was Arizona Fall -detailed... Hi Greg C. >I know what I pay for Lunar, and when I see others charging what they do, >it makes me wonder - I am just lucky to get it for what I do or do the >dealers really want to make that much off the collectors? >I do not want to throw sand or gloat, but I do speak what I think. Ya Greg, but you have to think before and to think a little bit further. Because I think, you disregard important parameters in your calculation. Seems that you're thinking - buying price minus selling price = profit. Which is somewhat short-sighted. Let's start with the most simple to understand: I don't know, are you paying taxes for your sales? Each "big" or professional dealer, who does his living with meteorites, has to do so. Don't know, I read somewhere, that the average tax&dues quota in USA would be smth around 30%. Plus here and there federal sales taxes. There are other countries, where the quota exceeds 50%. And maybe those professional dealers want to have a health insurance or even a pension plan like anybody in other professions has too? So the next point, perhaps not so easy to understand yet for you. A big dealer has to bring up permanently new material of rare types and new meteorites, the hunter in the field has to find permanently better stuff than the 90% ordinary chondrites, which are lying around, a fall chaser has to find pieces of the few falls per year at all, if they want to make a living from meteorites. So they have to work completely differently than you, who orders a few stones per year of already known (and in most cases known, because the hunters/dealers had them classified before) material from your armchair. And there we have a problem, Greg. Meteorites are by far the rarest stuff on Earth. A ruby, a world-class diamond, a dinosaur - no problem, a dealer can simply reorder, if he's running out - but with a new Lunar, a new Martian, ya even with a new eucrite - he can't. The professional hunters have to travel and to graze the fields week for week, hoping to find something better than an ordinary chondrite - look into the bulletins, how few achondrites were found in the US-deserts, how small the weight of all achondrites is, collected through more than 30 years in Antarctica, where the stones are especially easy to identify, or from that huge half of the continent covered by Sahara in the last 20 years. 100kgs of eucrites only from NWA, to give you a hint. And a fall hunter has to try his luck with the 7 or 10 falls per year. Ask the regular and best desert hunters in USA - we figured it already out on the list in former times, what for average find rates per hour they have, - the result is, that if they would like to live from their finds, it would be more rewarding and easier for them to tie around an apron and to get employed at a fast food instead. And the NWA-dealers - they have to travel to Morocco and have to try to identify new exiting stones. If the possible lunar turns later out to be an eucrite only or a terrestrial - bad luck, the money at stack is lost. That they have to compensate too. Other simply costs. You experienced it with your piece of the lunar - from your postings to the list, we heard that you got so insecure about the provenance or you weren't aware, that this material was already classified, that you almost - if not the nice members of the list, yes also big dealers, informed you, that it wouldn't be necessary - hence that you almost had reclassified that stuff at Ted Bunch again. That would have meant, that you'd have to give away 20% of your lunar for free, which again would have reduced your profit. You took advantage - as it is often with assumed pairings too - that others took the costs for classification. Yes it is true - the dealers do let classify their stones and if it's something so rare like a planetary, they do have to donate material of a retail value of 20 or 30k$. - and anyway most of the big dealers donate a lot more material of their finds than only the type & deposit specimens. Well more costs: You see the hunters in the deserts, the fall chasers, the NWA dealers, they all travel many months, half a year or more per year to get new finds for the collectors and researchers. That costs. We just read from Michael Farmer, that he has travel expenses per year of 50k$. That sum he has to earn! But just google around, what it would cost you, to buy a plane ticket to NWA wonderland, to rent a car, to spend several weeks there - and how many UNWAs or HEDs you would have to sell, to get only your travel costs back. And try to find there a new lunar or Martian - the odds you can figure out from the Bulletin database. Other costs. Transaction costs like paypal, ebay fees ect. you know by your own, But a dealer has to run a business, with all the costs for bureau, bookkeeping, advertising, machines, preparation costs and and and, Costs which an amateur seller doesn't has or not to that extend. Take only the iron preparators, how long does it take to completely slice down a 2kg Muonionalusta or a Campo, how long does it take to grind and to polish a hand sized slice to that perfect state and on both sides please, which allows an etching of that quality, which each collector does expect? How long does it take to stabilize and to preserve each slice at the state of art after etching? Have you an idea, how much such a slice would cost then, if you only would have to pay the minimum wage for the working hours and the machines and preparation material costs? That stuff is so cheap, cause the preparators are doing it by their selves. Think to the cut and polishing loss. You see how crumbly your Lunar is. What for a cut loss you'd have, if you would cut slices and expertly polish them as it is standard among the collectors. Stones and irons 20-30%... Reduces again your profit. And look what else they're doing - that basical work of growing and instructing new collectors, customer service, they organize exhibitions or give their best pieces on loan to exhibitions for free (where each art collector would get a fine sum), they are writing books, giving lessons, go into schools, they spread knowledge in the newspapers and on TV, All that basic work. O.k. - that all are doing many collectors too - but did you so too? Or they bring you the stones to the shows. I'm not so sure, whether your revenue from the piece of lunar at the end would be sufficient to pay 2 weeks as an exhibitor in Tucson or to have a stall at the Munich or Tokyo show. And see what they're nevertheless doing, the so greedy big dealers, they tinker even from their most exciting finds small servings, that each and every collector now matter how limited their budgets are, can participate. You see what Farmer, the Hupes, we are doing - seen only the efforts and costs all these Micros 1g, 2g pieces, these 2-50$ polished slices are in fact a loss for them or at best not profitable. But they offer them additionally for everybody being able to enjoy that hobby. Well and at the end - they do this all often alone as one-man-shows. Hence keeping that all in mind, you'll recognize that it was somewhat easy for you to start acting as big Robin Hood and to play the Hero. (In fact a professional dealer, if he would buy at your purchase price and would resell at your selling price, would earn a lot less than you). Cause seen these conditions, it's anyway astonishing, that professional dealers are all in all not more expensive than hobby-sellers or not so seldom even cheaper. And anyway I can't understand your anger. Would you scream blue murder in a mechanics forum too, cause in some cases you would be able to fix your car by your own? Would you suspect the members of a baker's mailing-list to be extortioners, cause if necessary you would be able to make a bread by yourself? See. If it's accepted as absolutely normal that such professions are paid for their services, wouldn't it be a matter of course, that meteorite dealers would be paid in a fair manner too to appreciate their performance? A profession btw, which I suspect to be more difficult than others, cause if it would be so easy as you think it is, I guess we would have in each major town and in each second mall a specialized meteorite shop... Well and you're experienced it now by your own, that it's not that easy with selling meteorites, in getting frustrated, that noone seemed to have directly been waiting for buying that lunar at 1000$/g from you. (O.k. collector-sized slices - slices and not fragments were here and there offered at 1250$/g too, hence seen the cut loss your offer wasn't that sensational - and in general you had bad luck, cause you hadn't checked the archives before, where a Moroccan had offered that lunar in big chunks at 500$/g to the list). But in general also the sale of meteorites has a lot to do with courtesy, mutual respect and trust, likewise the whole meteorite community is shaped and ruled by these values. That after your behaviour here on the list, the dealers and experienced colletors weren't be eager to share their experiences and knowledge with you, isn't surprising, because there are friendlier people and newcomers to deal with. And that the meteorite scene isn't that evil as you might have thought, you just experienced today, where several of those, who you suspected before to be dishonest, even took the time to answer you and others already offered you assistance in learning how to hunt for meteorites. I don't know, it is a banality that a correct behaviour and a certain courtesy is the fundament for a friendly cooperation and relationship. With your rantings you hadn't made yourself directly friends, neither such things are well and truly (and note, that we never made an issue out of it). http://kuerzer.de/Cattplag vs http://kuerzer.de/ChladOrg But now, I'm sure, you'll make it better. Why I'm writing that all to the list, where I guess most know that all, and not to you privately... Because I have uncomfortable feelings. Perhaps it's only because I'm starting to get senile. But among the youngest generation of collectors of the last 1-3 years, at least to me it seems so, there are many so aggressive. So many angry young men. Not only in USA, everywhere else too. And I don't know why. They rage against the system, where there is no system. Everywhere they smell a conspiracy. (The dealers conspiracy, the hunters conspiracy, the ebay-seller conspiracy, the veteran collectors conspiracy, the Moroccan conspiracy, the scientist conspiracy, the IMCA-conspiracy....). And I don't understand, why they then collect meteorites at all, if it makes them so angry? Most of the collectors want to have in their meteorites an equilibrium to their hard daily routine. Meteorites are a source of joy for them. Nourishment for their curiosity, for their aesthetical sensation, occasion for occupying with the universe, with history, with science or also very concrete to work on them in cutting, preparing or even to go for a hunt out in nature.. ...the reasons for them to collect are manifold. But if the only joy I get from meteorites should be the satisfaction to have bought a stone cheaper than my fellow-collector, to make some bucks in selling stones, to find a valve to let out my aggressions in ranting about each and everybody and to listen to and to spread nasty gossip, then I would say, that for these purposes, meteorites aren't directly necessary. That kind of occupation one can have in any other field too and easier I guess too. Huh, back to the new fall. History is fine. Greg, perhaps, if you find a little time, you could search a little bit on internet about the history of Gold Basin and the unforgotten Jim Kriegh. Than you will see, that that, what happens now with the new fall is nothing to bristle about or to be worried. Best! Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Greg Catterton Gesendet: Montag, 6. Juli 2009 05:49 An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall - detailed... I will break this down some... > Greg, you seem to have a good heart, but you are coming off as very nasty.> Thanks, I do have a good heart, and I dont want to come off as nasty - its hard to get your points across how you want them to be on the internet. > We make a living at this, now you are selling meteorites and gloating and throwing sand in the eyes of the "big dealers" on prices. Do you think this will help your chances?> I sell meteorites only to help to pay for my collection. When dealers sell stuff like ordinary chondrites for $100 per gram, unless you are rich, you all but have to sell if you want samples of the new falls. I know what I pay for Lunar, and when I see others charging what they do, it makes me wonder - I am just lucky to get it for what I do or do the dealers really want to make that much off the collectors? I do not want to throw sand or gloat, but I do speak what I think. It may not always come off like I want it to, but I wont hold my tounge when I have something to say. As far as my chances, I had nasty emails over what I was selling lunar for, have been turned down many many times when I have asked for help and ideas, I dont think my chances from the well known group like you are in were good to begin with - as you said, why help out the competion? >I am really not interested in training my competition, so I am not too keen to take people with me. This is not meant to be mean, but common sense.> Did Bob Haag not help you out? From what I have read and understand, he did alot. Correct me if I am wrong. I am far from competition to you, nor would I ever really want to be. As I said, I only sell to help pay for my personal collection - So I sell a few things from time to time... look at my ebay record, then look at yours. Its a struggle for me to come up with enough material to get a power seller status to get a discount for fees! I have really been into the meteorite hobby for 3 years, how long have you been into it? If you consider me copetition, I take that as an impressive compliment! I was not able to make it to west, my wife was in her last weeks of Nursing school (she passed and is now an official RN!!) and I now have more time to put into meteorites. I knew you were kind enough to help a few then, I did not understand why not now. I am eager to learn from the guys like you who for better or worse are well known and who I thought would be great menotrs of sorts... When I am constantly turned down while seeking to better myself and my knowlege on meteorites, it is frusterating as many claim to be in it for the benifit of science and learning - yet are unwilling to really help someone who wants to learn how to do it right. I can read books all day long (which I do) but when it comes to in the field learning and hands on, books dont do it. so, to rap up this book, I am sorry if I have offended anyone, it was not my intent. I just think that some of the people out there should remember when they were new at this and how much they wanted to learn and take part in things and consider that when someone asks to help out. I would have been happy just being there and learning about the aspects of the hunt and documentaion - even if I came back empty handed, the trip would have been worth it to me from the experience I would have gained from it. Instead, I am now a collector who is really considering walking away from meteorites due to what I feel is an exclusive group who is unwilling to allow someone like me who honestly wants to learn from you all to take part. Yes, I can do it on my own, but I would rather learn from people who know what they are doing and learn how to do it right instead of blindly stumbling along before I get it right. Hope everyone is good and had a safe 4th of July. Greg C. --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Michael Farmer wrote: > From: Michael Farmer > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, "Greg Catterton" > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 10:30 PM > > Greg, you seem to have a good heart, but you are coming off > as very nasty. > Just go hunt, I learned on my own, most people learn by > doing. My first real fall was Monahans, then months later > Portales, I learned on the spot, alone, it was every man for > himself. > We make a living at this, now you are selling meteorites > and gloating and throwing sand in the eyes of the "big > dealers" on prices. Do you think this will help your > chances? Come on, I spent ~$50,000 a year on hunts, and let > me tell you, I must recoup this in sales, or I will be > living in a cardboard box. Your emails harping on overpriced > dealers are not falling on deaf ears. Go ahead, do a hunt > yourself, see what the costs are for stones found, and you > would find that most in West lost money, even those who > found stones! > Get over it, take a chance, do it. I am really not > interested in training my competition, so I am not too keen > to take people with me. This is not meant to be mean, but > common sense. > Michael Farmer > > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Greg Catterton > wrote: > > > From: Greg Catterton > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the > Arizona Fall > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 8:25 PM > > > > Im glad you seem to understand where I am coming from, > this > > was not meant as an attack, just my frustration at not > being > > able to join in on what I would consider a great > learning > > experience. > > When I was told it was being kept secret, I felt > pretty > > upset at the fact that it seemed to be that something > of a > > high scholl clique only type thing. > > I am newer at this and want to take up as many things > like > > this as I can to better learn and understand things > and > > thought with the gorup out there currently, I could > learn > > alot while contributing in a good manner. > > > > I have asked many hunters to tag along on trips, > becouse I > > dont know how to do it and really want to learn. each > time I > > have been told no. > > > > I want to learn how to do this right and if none of > these > > guys are willing to help me out or anyone else who > wants to > > learn how to do it right, why should I even stay in > this > > hobby? > > > > Greg C. > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Jack Schrader > > wrote: > > > > > From: Jack Schrader > > > Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the > Arizona > > Fall > > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 5:35 PM > > > > > > Dear list members. > > > > > > I have today received an email from a person. > He > > sent the > > > message to the list and not to me personally so > you > > already > > > know who this person is. If he had sent the > message > > to me > > > personally, I would have treated it with > complete > > > confidentiality. I feel that it is important > to > > share the > > > information I shared with him with the members > of > > this > > > list. Most of the people on this list have > been > > involved > > > with the science of meteorites for many years > and > > have > > > already gained the knowledge and wisdom that can > only > > come > > > from years of experience. This list has been > very > > fortunate > > > to have been joined by people who are new to the > > science and > > > to the wonderful hobby of collecting > meteorites. His > > email > > > was not sent to be malicious but was sent out of > > frustration > > > and out of his enthusiastic desire to be able to > look > > for a > > > new meteorite and to actually find one for > himself.. > > These > > > people who hold this intense enthusiasm are the > people > > we > > > need in this science, this > > > hobby. This is the dream we all hold dear, to > > venture out, > > > find and be the first one to touch a stone that > > acually fell > > > to earth from space. I have copied the > information I > > sent > > > to him below. I hope others who are > experiencing > > similar > > > feelings of frustration at the present time will > > benefit > > > from this as well. > > > > > > > > > Hello. This fall is a very rare, a very > important > > and > > > historic fall for this state and for the > University > > of > > > Arizona in particular as the site is very > literally in > > their > > > own back yard. It is vitally important that the > area > > be > > > protected for only as long as it takes to > properly > > record > > > and document the fall. I have seen what happens > to > > an area > > > when the location is announced publicly too > early. > > The > > > area is almost immediately deluged and over run > with > > not > > > only the true professional meteorite hunters who > are > > > actually trying to do something good and recover > the > > stones > > > properly with GPS coordinates and photographic > > evidence of > > > the stones in situ but with every treasure seeker > and > > rock > > > hunter and curiosity seeker who could care less > about > > the > > > science but more about simply having something > cool to > > show > > > off to their friends. This is okay too and > there is > > > absolutely nothing wrong with this but right now > is > > not the > > > time for this. This area is presently > > > pristine and kin to a very delicate > > archaeological site. > > > The archaeologists need to do the proper work in > the > > area > > > before the "pot > > > hunters" find it and destroy any information > that > > could > > > otherwise be learned from the site. My > intention is > > > certainly not simply just for the money or the > stones > > that > > > can be recovered. When you really give this > some > > thought, > > > you will realize that I did not have to tell a > single > > soul > > > about this. I discovered this remote area > entirely > > on my > > > own using the knowledge that I have gained over > many > > years > > > of hunting meteorites. I could have very easily > kept > > this > > > site to myself and hunted it for months and > months. > > But > > > the path I chose was simply to do the right > thing. I > > made > > > a proper announcement and I have begun > preparations > > for > > > conducting a proper search and recording of the > fall > > site. > > > Please do not worry. You will get your > opportunity > > to hunt > > > the area. There will be stones in this area to > be > > > recovered for years to come and you will find > yours. > > And > > > they will be free, you will not have to buy > > anything. The > > > area as any area where meteorite have > > > fallen either in recent or in ancient times is > > impossible > > > to > > > hunt out completely. I am just simply asking > for a > > little > > > time that it takes to be able to properly record > this > > fall > > > site so the information may be available to the > > University > > > of Arizona and to any other institutions and > > meteoriticists > > > in the world who may have an interest in the work > that > > we > > > will be doing. It is too important to risk > > destroying the > > > information at this point not only for the > science > > that can > > > be gained from the area but for the generations > to > > come who > > > may have an interest in learning more about the > > dynamics of > > > meteors and the variety of strewn field types > that > > they > > > create. I do appreciate your understanding. > My > > very best > > > wishes, Dr. Jack Schrader > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From dave at fallingrocks.com Mon Jul 6 21:14:49 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 21:14:49 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Old men say to Greg C. was Arizona Fall-detailed... In-Reply-To: <4215A0605DE34C92AB24D4B90CBE0AF4@StarmanPC> References: <208937.61663.qm@web46404.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><005501c9fe62$51ced790$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> <4215A0605DE34C92AB24D4B90CBE0AF4@StarmanPC> Message-ID: <6B8EFA5927D04D2989D0E196BEE553CE@meteorroom> Al, Martin & All, Ditto, Al. Terrific post, Martin...very much worth the read, and thank you for the time spent in writing it. Dave www.fallingrocks.com -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of al mitt Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 8:16 PM To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Cc: Martin Altmann Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Old men say to Greg C. was Arizona Fall-detailed... Hi Martin and all, Very well put and something we all should save and read a couple of times a year!! Your so many times right on with your thinking. --AL Mitterling ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Altmann" To: Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Old men say to Greg C. was Arizona Fall -detailed... Hi Greg C. >I know what I pay for Lunar, and when I see others charging what they >do, it makes me wonder - I am just lucky to get it for what I do or do >the dealers really want to make that much off the collectors? >I do not want to throw sand or gloat, but I do speak what I think. Ya Greg, but you have to think before and to think a little bit further. Because I think, you disregard important parameters in your calculation. Seems that you're thinking - buying price minus selling price = profit. Which is somewhat short-sighted. Let's start with the most simple to understand: I don't know, are you paying taxes for your sales? Each "big" or professional dealer, who does his living with meteorites, has to do so. Don't know, I read somewhere, that the average tax&dues quota in USA would be smth around 30%. Plus here and there federal sales taxes. There are other countries, where the quota exceeds 50%. And maybe those professional dealers want to have a health insurance or even a pension plan like anybody in other professions has too? So the next point, perhaps not so easy to understand yet for you. A big dealer has to bring up permanently new material of rare types and new meteorites, the hunter in the field has to find permanently better stuff than the 90% ordinary chondrites, which are lying around, a fall chaser has to find pieces of the few falls per year at all, if they want to make a living from meteorites. So they have to work completely differently than you, who orders a few stones per year of already known (and in most cases known, because the hunters/dealers had them classified before) material from your armchair. And there we have a problem, Greg. Meteorites are by far the rarest stuff on Earth. A ruby, a world-class diamond, a dinosaur - no problem, a dealer can simply reorder, if he's running out - but with a new Lunar, a new Martian, ya even with a new eucrite - he can't. The professional hunters have to travel and to graze the fields week for week, hoping to find something better than an ordinary chondrite - look into the bulletins, how few achondrites were found in the US-deserts, how small the weight of all achondrites is, collected through more than 30 years in Antarctica, where the stones are especially easy to identify, or from that huge half of the continent covered by Sahara in the last 20 years. 100kgs of eucrites only from NWA, to give you a hint. And a fall hunter has to try his luck with the 7 or 10 falls per year. Ask the regular and best desert hunters in USA - we figured it already out on the list in former times, what for average find rates per hour they have, - the result is, that if they would like to live from their finds, it would be more rewarding and easier for them to tie around an apron and to get employed at a fast food instead. And the NWA-dealers - they have to travel to Morocco and have to try to identify new exiting stones. If the possible lunar turns later out to be an eucrite only or a terrestrial - bad luck, the money at stack is lost. That they have to compensate too. Other simply costs. You experienced it with your piece of the lunar - from your postings to the list, we heard that you got so insecure about the provenance or you weren't aware, that this material was already classified, that you almost - if not the nice members of the list, yes also big dealers, informed you, that it wouldn't be necessary - hence that you almost had reclassified that stuff at Ted Bunch again. That would have meant, that you'd have to give away 20% of your lunar for free, which again would have reduced your profit. You took advantage - as it is often with assumed pairings too - that others took the costs for classification. Yes it is true - the dealers do let classify their stones and if it's something so rare like a planetary, they do have to donate material of a retail value of 20 or 30k$. - and anyway most of the big dealers donate a lot more material of their finds than only the type & deposit specimens. Well more costs: You see the hunters in the deserts, the fall chasers, the NWA dealers, they all travel many months, half a year or more per year to get new finds for the collectors and researchers. That costs. We just read from Michael Farmer, that he has travel expenses per year of 50k$. That sum he has to earn! But just google around, what it would cost you, to buy a plane ticket to NWA wonderland, to rent a car, to spend several weeks there - and how many UNWAs or HEDs you would have to sell, to get only your travel costs back. And try to find there a new lunar or Martian - the odds you can figure out from the Bulletin database. Other costs. Transaction costs like paypal, ebay fees ect. you know by your own, But a dealer has to run a business, with all the costs for bureau, bookkeeping, advertising, machines, preparation costs and and and, Costs which an amateur seller doesn't has or not to that extend. Take only the iron preparators, how long does it take to completely slice down a 2kg Muonionalusta or a Campo, how long does it take to grind and to polish a hand sized slice to that perfect state and on both sides please, which allows an etching of that quality, which each collector does expect? How long does it take to stabilize and to preserve each slice at the state of art after etching? Have you an idea, how much such a slice would cost then, if you only would have to pay the minimum wage for the working hours and the machines and preparation material costs? That stuff is so cheap, cause the preparators are doing it by their selves. Think to the cut and polishing loss. You see how crumbly your Lunar is. What for a cut loss you'd have, if you would cut slices and expertly polish them as it is standard among the collectors. Stones and irons 20-30%... Reduces again your profit. And look what else they're doing - that basical work of growing and instructing new collectors, customer service, they organize exhibitions or give their best pieces on loan to exhibitions for free (where each art collector would get a fine sum), they are writing books, giving lessons, go into schools, they spread knowledge in the newspapers and on TV, All that basic work. O.k. - that all are doing many collectors too - but did you so too? Or they bring you the stones to the shows. I'm not so sure, whether your revenue from the piece of lunar at the end would be sufficient to pay 2 weeks as an exhibitor in Tucson or to have a stall at the Munich or Tokyo show. And see what they're nevertheless doing, the so greedy big dealers, they tinker even from their most exciting finds small servings, that each and every collector now matter how limited their budgets are, can participate. You see what Farmer, the Hupes, we are doing - seen only the efforts and costs all these Micros 1g, 2g pieces, these 2-50$ polished slices are in fact a loss for them or at best not profitable. But they offer them additionally for everybody being able to enjoy that hobby. Well and at the end - they do this all often alone as one-man-shows. Hence keeping that all in mind, you'll recognize that it was somewhat easy for you to start acting as big Robin Hood and to play the Hero. (In fact a professional dealer, if he would buy at your purchase price and would resell at your selling price, would earn a lot less than you). Cause seen these conditions, it's anyway astonishing, that professional dealers are all in all not more expensive than hobby-sellers or not so seldom even cheaper. And anyway I can't understand your anger. Would you scream blue murder in a mechanics forum too, cause in some cases you would be able to fix your car by your own? Would you suspect the members of a baker's mailing-list to be extortioners, cause if necessary you would be able to make a bread by yourself? See. If it's accepted as absolutely normal that such professions are paid for their services, wouldn't it be a matter of course, that meteorite dealers would be paid in a fair manner too to appreciate their performance? A profession btw, which I suspect to be more difficult than others, cause if it would be so easy as you think it is, I guess we would have in each major town and in each second mall a specialized meteorite shop... Well and you're experienced it now by your own, that it's not that easy with selling meteorites, in getting frustrated, that noone seemed to have directly been waiting for buying that lunar at 1000$/g from you. (O.k. collector-sized slices - slices and not fragments were here and there offered at 1250$/g too, hence seen the cut loss your offer wasn't that sensational - and in general you had bad luck, cause you hadn't checked the archives before, where a Moroccan had offered that lunar in big chunks at 500$/g to the list). But in general also the sale of meteorites has a lot to do with courtesy, mutual respect and trust, likewise the whole meteorite community is shaped and ruled by these values. That after your behaviour here on the list, the dealers and experienced colletors weren't be eager to share their experiences and knowledge with you, isn't surprising, because there are friendlier people and newcomers to deal with. And that the meteorite scene isn't that evil as you might have thought, you just experienced today, where several of those, who you suspected before to be dishonest, even took the time to answer you and others already offered you assistance in learning how to hunt for meteorites. I don't know, it is a banality that a correct behaviour and a certain courtesy is the fundament for a friendly cooperation and relationship. With your rantings you hadn't made yourself directly friends, neither such things are well and truly (and note, that we never made an issue out of it). http://kuerzer.de/Cattplag vs http://kuerzer.de/ChladOrg But now, I'm sure, you'll make it better. Why I'm writing that all to the list, where I guess most know that all, and not to you privately... Because I have uncomfortable feelings. Perhaps it's only because I'm starting to get senile. But among the youngest generation of collectors of the last 1-3 years, at least to me it seems so, there are many so aggressive. So many angry young men. Not only in USA, everywhere else too. And I don't know why. They rage against the system, where there is no system. Everywhere they smell a conspiracy. (The dealers conspiracy, the hunters conspiracy, the ebay-seller conspiracy, the veteran collectors conspiracy, the Moroccan conspiracy, the scientist conspiracy, the IMCA-conspiracy....). And I don't understand, why they then collect meteorites at all, if it makes them so angry? Most of the collectors want to have in their meteorites an equilibrium to their hard daily routine. Meteorites are a source of joy for them. Nourishment for their curiosity, for their aesthetical sensation, occasion for occupying with the universe, with history, with science or also very concrete to work on them in cutting, preparing or even to go for a hunt out in nature.. ...the reasons for them to collect are manifold. But if the only joy I get from meteorites should be the satisfaction to have bought a stone cheaper than my fellow-collector, to make some bucks in selling stones, to find a valve to let out my aggressions in ranting about each and everybody and to listen to and to spread nasty gossip, then I would say, that for these purposes, meteorites aren't directly necessary. That kind of occupation one can have in any other field too and easier I guess too. Huh, back to the new fall. History is fine. Greg, perhaps, if you find a little time, you could search a little bit on internet about the history of Gold Basin and the unforgotten Jim Kriegh. Than you will see, that that, what happens now with the new fall is nothing to bristle about or to be worried. Best! Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Greg Catterton Gesendet: Montag, 6. Juli 2009 05:49 An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall - detailed... I will break this down some... > Greg, you seem to have a good heart, but you are coming off as very nasty.> Thanks, I do have a good heart, and I dont want to come off as nasty - its hard to get your points across how you want them to be on the internet. > We make a living at this, now you are selling meteorites and gloating and throwing sand in the eyes of the "big dealers" on prices. Do you think this will help your chances?> I sell meteorites only to help to pay for my collection. When dealers sell stuff like ordinary chondrites for $100 per gram, unless you are rich, you all but have to sell if you want samples of the new falls. I know what I pay for Lunar, and when I see others charging what they do, it makes me wonder - I am just lucky to get it for what I do or do the dealers really want to make that much off the collectors? I do not want to throw sand or gloat, but I do speak what I think. It may not always come off like I want it to, but I wont hold my tounge when I have something to say. As far as my chances, I had nasty emails over what I was selling lunar for, have been turned down many many times when I have asked for help and ideas, I dont think my chances from the well known group like you are in were good to begin with - as you said, why help out the competion? >I am really not interested in training my competition, so I am not too >keen to take people with me. This is not meant to be mean, but common sense.> Did Bob Haag not help you out? From what I have read and understand, he did alot. Correct me if I am wrong. I am far from competition to you, nor would I ever really want to be. As I said, I only sell to help pay for my personal collection - So I sell a few things from time to time... look at my ebay record, then look at yours. Its a struggle for me to come up with enough material to get a power seller status to get a discount for fees! I have really been into the meteorite hobby for 3 years, how long have you been into it? If you consider me copetition, I take that as an impressive compliment! I was not able to make it to west, my wife was in her last weeks of Nursing school (she passed and is now an official RN!!) and I now have more time to put into meteorites. I knew you were kind enough to help a few then, I did not understand why not now. I am eager to learn from the guys like you who for better or worse are well known and who I thought would be great menotrs of sorts... When I am constantly turned down while seeking to better myself and my knowlege on meteorites, it is frusterating as many claim to be in it for the benifit of science and learning - yet are unwilling to really help someone who wants to learn how to do it right. I can read books all day long (which I do) but when it comes to in the field learning and hands on, books dont do it. so, to rap up this book, I am sorry if I have offended anyone, it was not my intent. I just think that some of the people out there should remember when they were new at this and how much they wanted to learn and take part in things and consider that when someone asks to help out. I would have been happy just being there and learning about the aspects of the hunt and documentaion - even if I came back empty handed, the trip would have been worth it to me from the experience I would have gained from it. Instead, I am now a collector who is really considering walking away from meteorites due to what I feel is an exclusive group who is unwilling to allow someone like me who honestly wants to learn from you all to take part. Yes, I can do it on my own, but I would rather learn from people who know what they are doing and learn how to do it right instead of blindly stumbling along before I get it right. Hope everyone is good and had a safe 4th of July. Greg C. --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Michael Farmer wrote: > From: Michael Farmer > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, "Greg Catterton" > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 10:30 PM > > Greg, you seem to have a good heart, but you are coming off as very > nasty. > Just go hunt, I learned on my own, most people learn by doing. My > first real fall was Monahans, then months later Portales, I learned on > the spot, alone, it was every man for himself. > We make a living at this, now you are selling meteorites and gloating > and throwing sand in the eyes of the "big dealers" on prices. Do you > think this will help your chances? Come on, I spent ~$50,000 a year on > hunts, and let me tell you, I must recoup this in sales, or I will be > living in a cardboard box. Your emails harping on overpriced dealers > are not falling on deaf ears. Go ahead, do a hunt yourself, see what > the costs are for stones found, and you would find that most in West > lost money, even those who found stones! > Get over it, take a chance, do it. I am really not interested in > training my competition, so I am not too keen to take people with me. > This is not meant to be mean, but common sense. > Michael Farmer > > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Greg Catterton > wrote: > > > From: Greg Catterton > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the > Arizona Fall > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 8:25 PM > > > > Im glad you seem to understand where I am coming from, > this > > was not meant as an attack, just my frustration at not > being > > able to join in on what I would consider a great > learning > > experience. > > When I was told it was being kept secret, I felt > pretty > > upset at the fact that it seemed to be that something > of a > > high scholl clique only type thing. > > I am newer at this and want to take up as many things > like > > this as I can to better learn and understand things > and > > thought with the gorup out there currently, I could > learn > > alot while contributing in a good manner. > > > > I have asked many hunters to tag along on trips, > becouse I > > dont know how to do it and really want to learn. each > time I > > have been told no. > > > > I want to learn how to do this right and if none of > these > > guys are willing to help me out or anyone else who > wants to > > learn how to do it right, why should I even stay in > this > > hobby? > > > > Greg C. > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Jack Schrader > > wrote: > > > > > From: Jack Schrader > > > Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the > Arizona > > Fall > > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 5:35 PM > > > > > > Dear list members. > > > > > > I have today received an email from a person. > He > > sent the > > > message to the list and not to me personally so > you > > already > > > know who this person is. If he had sent the > message > > to me > > > personally, I would have treated it with > complete > > > confidentiality. I feel that it is important > to > > share the > > > information I shared with him with the members > of > > this > > > list. Most of the people on this list have > been > > involved > > > with the science of meteorites for many years > and > > have > > > already gained the knowledge and wisdom that can > only > > come > > > from years of experience. This list has been > very > > fortunate > > > to have been joined by people who are new to the > > science and > > > to the wonderful hobby of collecting > meteorites. His > > email > > > was not sent to be malicious but was sent out of > > frustration > > > and out of his enthusiastic desire to be able to > look > > for a > > > new meteorite and to actually find one for > himself.. > > These > > > people who hold this intense enthusiasm are the > people > > we > > > need in this science, this > > > hobby. This is the dream we all hold dear, to > > venture out, > > > find and be the first one to touch a stone that > > acually fell > > > to earth from space. I have copied the > information I > > sent > > > to him below. I hope others who are > experiencing > > similar > > > feelings of frustration at the present time will > > benefit > > > from this as well. > > > > > > > > > Hello. This fall is a very rare, a very > important > > and > > > historic fall for this state and for the > University > > of > > > Arizona in particular as the site is very > literally in > > their > > > own back yard. It is vitally important that the > area > > be > > > protected for only as long as it takes to > properly > > record > > > and document the fall. I have seen what happens > to > > an area > > > when the location is announced publicly too > early. > > The > > > area is almost immediately deluged and over run > with > > not > > > only the true professional meteorite hunters who > are > > > actually trying to do something good and recover > the > > stones > > > properly with GPS coordinates and photographic > > evidence of > > > the stones in situ but with every treasure seeker > and > > rock > > > hunter and curiosity seeker who could care less > about > > the > > > science but more about simply having something > cool to > > show > > > off to their friends. This is okay too and > there is > > > absolutely nothing wrong with this but right now > is > > not the > > > time for this. This area is presently pristine and kin to a very > > > delicate > > archaeological site. > > > The archaeologists need to do the proper work in > the > > area > > > before the "pot > > > hunters" find it and destroy any information > that > > could > > > otherwise be learned from the site. My > intention is > > > certainly not simply just for the money or the > stones > > that > > > can be recovered. When you really give this > some > > thought, > > > you will realize that I did not have to tell a > single > > soul > > > about this. I discovered this remote area > entirely > > on my > > > own using the knowledge that I have gained over > many > > years > > > of hunting meteorites. I could have very easily > kept > > this > > > site to myself and hunted it for months and > months. > > But > > > the path I chose was simply to do the right > thing. I > > made > > > a proper announcement and I have begun > preparations > > for > > > conducting a proper search and recording of the > fall > > site. > > > Please do not worry. You will get your > opportunity > > to hunt > > > the area. There will be stones in this area to > be > > > recovered for years to come and you will find > yours. > > And > > > they will be free, you will not have to buy > > anything. The > > > area as any area where meteorite have fallen either in recent or > > > in ancient times is > > impossible > > > to > > > hunt out completely. I am just simply asking > for a > > little > > > time that it takes to be able to properly record > this > > fall > > > site so the information may be available to the > > University > > > of Arizona and to any other institutions and > > meteoriticists > > > in the world who may have an interest in the work > that > > we > > > will be doing. It is too important to risk > > destroying the > > > information at this point not only for the > science > > that can > > > be gained from the area but for the generations > to > > come who > > > may have an interest in learning more about the > > dynamics of > > > meteors and the variety of strewn field types > that > > they > > > create. I do appreciate your understanding. > My > > very best > > > wishes, Dr. Jack Schrader > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From dave at fallingrocks.com Mon Jul 6 21:50:46 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 21:50:46 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone haveinfo on these? (or specimens?) In-Reply-To: References: <23600EB234CE4ED0ABCF461EB2C981A8@meteorroom> Message-ID: <05D5AF216F9F46578C956493DDC10D39@meteorroom> Thanks much, Michael. Take care, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -----Original Message----- From: Michael Blood [mailto:mlblood at cox.net] Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 5:19 PM To: Dave Gheesling; 'Galactic Stone & Ironworks'; Meteorite List Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone haveinfo on these? (or specimens?) Thanks, Dave, I have had L'Aigle on my hammer page since you Told me about it being a hammer. Very cool - of course, Your specimen is THE too cool L'Aigle! Best wishes, Michael On 7/6/09 12:55 PM, "Dave Gheesling" wrote: > Mike/All, > > The boy in Mbale was photographed with the small stone in his hand and > was also in some video footage taken at the time of the fall by the Dutch group. > Both can be seen here: > http://www.fallingrocks.com/Collections/Mbale.htm, > but I gather that no one knows where that 3 gram stone is today. > > Jean Baptiste-Biot also recorded testimony from a man who claimed to > have been struck in the arm by a L'Aigle stone. Given the veracity, > worldwide acceptance and historic nature of his report, there's > probably a better than average chance it's true, but we'll never know. Some info here: > http://www.fallingrocks.com/Collections/L'Aigle.htm. > > All best, > > Dave > > www.fallingrocks.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of > Galactic Stone & Ironworks > Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 12:19 PM > To: Meteorite List > Subject: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone > haveinfo on these? (or specimens?) > > Hi List and Hammer Fans, > > (MC Hammer fans please skip this post - this is about Hammer > Meteorites, not > rappers) > > While reading through Grady's Catalogue of Meteorites last night, I > ran across some entries that describe possible hammer falls. I was > wondering if someone here on the List might have more information > about them, or possibly a specimen (or photo). > > Mbale - everyone knows it's a hammer because it struck many buildings. > > But, the entry in the Catalogue of Mets states - "...The stones hit > several buildings, but nobody was hurt, although a young boy was > apparently hit on the head..." > > It then goes on to say that an expedition by the Dutch Meteor Society > investigated the fall and documented 48 impact locations. Did they > (or > anyone) investigate the claim of the boy being hit on the head? > Since everyone refers to Sylacauga as the only meteorite documented to > strike a human being in modern times, then I am I right to assume that > the Mbale boy was debunked or never proven? > > ... > > Mhow (yes, I was reading through the M's!) - Mhow is an obscure L6 > fall from India. On Feb 16, 1827 at 15:00 hrs local time, 4 or 5 > stones fell and that one struck a tree and another wounded a man. > This was an L6 chondrite. Was this claim ever investigated at any > time? > > ... > > Neagari - Feb 18, 1995 Japanese fall, L6 chondrite. The Catalogue of > Mets states : > > "...The next morning, in the city of Neagari, Mr. K. Sasatani found a > hole in the boot of his car and meteorite fragments were on and inside the boot." > > For those of us West of the Big Pond, a car boot is a car trunk. ;) > > I guess it doesn't matter if this claim was substantiated or not > because the finder owns the entire main mass and only a small type > specimen exists at the Tokyo Museum. So this one is unattainable - > unless someone wants to offer Mr. Sasatani some sake and loosen him up > to an offer. ;) > > ... > > I'm sure I'll run across more of these as I make my way through the > Catalogue. > > Best regards and clear skies, > > MikeG > > -- > ......................................................... > Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) > Member of the Meteoritical Society. > Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and > http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 22:05:31 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 19:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] PA July 6 Fireball Ground plot update Message-ID: <456858.66337.qm@web55206.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I have hand plotted 16 or so AMS reports on a printed map after assigning place marks in Google Earth. One might look at all the reports and wonder if they were looking at the same fireball. Of those, 11 are cleanly plottable, several have glaring holes in them but were partially plotted for backup. Two(2) witnesses report the fireball seen south of Baltimore and DC. e.g I believe they saw the fireball but were totally misoriented on direction, their start and stops are going in the wrong direction. When flipped 180* they fit other observations,but treated skeptically in that we really don't know which way they were looking. (NOTE for fireball chasers: This is where a field investigator goes on a ground interview and has the witness reconstruct the setting and he actually measures the directions with an inclinomenter and compass to improve the quality of the accuracy of the data) The best preliminary "fit" ,based on AMS filed fireball reports and, NOT including the concentration of ear witness /sonic boom reports vic. York, PA is: Thids fireball is inferred to have been moving close to EAST to WEST based on a moderately reliable passage point perpendicular to a NS gridline between Bel Air, MD and Fawn Grove, PA. This is is supported by a medium confidence eastward sighting from West of Hagerstown, MD. Maximum and probable terminus: a cluster of intersecting witness reports suggest that the fireball was still visible and moving briskly when passing over a gridline generally running NS between Westminster, MD and Hanover , PA. More outlying reports suggest that the fireball was yet visible along a gridline running NS between Mt Airy, MD and Gettysburg, PA. Given the sharp angle in one of the available photos and comparing it to other steep trajectory fireballs, this likely did not make it to Hagerstown and an incandesing fireball probably did not pass the gridline running through Fredrick and Thurmont, MD Depending on upper level winds and dark flight a meteoroid might travel 5 to 30 miles from extinction. Good new for a change on Eastern US fireballs-- This is largely level rural farmland with generous and polite native population that is more genteel. Maryland should by all demeanor have been a southern state. There were mentioned in some other reports of "extinguishing immediately after fragmenting" which I haven't revisited. Be it remembered this fireball was catching up to Earth at midnight and this would have had the effect of removing 15-17 kps from its approach speed, reducing ablation energies and improving chances that it dropped a meteorite. The ole disclaimer: This was a shake and bake assembly of an already course measure of bearing--cardinal compass points vs measured degrees of azimuth. Seen as far away as Washington DC is from New York City. Someone with experience and technical judgment could plot sonic boom reports to at least get a maximum distance since they did not necessarily include flash to bang time. Elton From pshugar at clearwire.net Mon Jul 6 22:21:22 2009 From: pshugar at clearwire.net (Pete Shugar) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 21:21:22 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Question?????? Message-ID: <7313046E50644376A5D78378BA567CEA@laptop> Should the new Az fireball --- now meteorites on the ground be located on BLM land, Does this mean that it can't be sold? If this is the case, may I please now request a small 1 or 2 gram free piece for my collection. I assume that I should at the least pay the postage and am willing to do that. Pete From cynapse at charter.net Mon Jul 6 23:30:58 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 22:30:58 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Question?????? In-Reply-To: <7313046E50644376A5D78378BA567CEA@laptop> References: <7313046E50644376A5D78378BA567CEA@laptop> Message-ID: <25g555185smrhh5snuo9qqbmen61d8uqfu@4ax.com> On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 21:21:22 -0500, you wrote: >Should the new Az fireball --- now meteorites on the ground >be located on BLM land, Does this mean that it can't be sold? There are different pets, such as small green turtles (salmonella) and gerbils and ferrets (possible they can escape and breed like bunnyrabbits) that have at times been illegal to sell as pets in various states. So, when you buy a certain aquarium or cage, you get a free turtle (or gerbil, or ferret. I'm sure someone could come up with a nice, fancy, limited-edition display case commerating this fall-- with as a free bonus, a piece of the meteorite. :-) From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 6 22:28:11 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 19:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Hunting in one's own "backyard"? Message-ID: <6459.45923.qm@web55202.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I want everyone to know that this wasn't a post to dissuade anyone from meteorite hunting and it in no means was a dig at Richard's post. I just took the opportunity to put into prespective how deep this hobby is and can be a life long quest for understanding. being tied into this list makes up for not having the time to do all the prep work. My frame of reference for following up fireballs is Europe and the eastern US which is a lot different than SW US desert and dry lake hunting--Cali, Nevada or Roosevelt County NM, etc. As I have already told Richard, I believe it to be a very different ball game out there. I have my approach but I kinda like the way Ruben does it also. He loads up the dog, metal detector, video camera... points the truck in a direction and drives until his internal gyro says stop here. After all who has had better success? If I recall correctly Steve Schoner, who found Glorietta Mtn spent how many years looking? By all means get out enjoy. Elton --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Richard Kowalski wrote: > From: Richard Kowalski > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Hunting in one's own "backyard"? > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, mstreman53 at yahoo.com > Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 5:44 PM > > Thanks Elton, > > I never meant to disparage those who work tirelessly > tracking down falls and find meteorites. I know a lot is > involved in the venture and admire the work that they do. > Especially when their work is scientifically rigorous and > they properly record the data from the fall as is happening > now with the fall near Tucson. > > I was curious if searching through farm rock piles might be > a viable search method for those would-be hunters that for > all the reasons you cite can't chase falls. There aren't > many farms here in southern Arizona, so I wasn't planning on > doing this myself. > > While I hope to be out in the field in the not too distant > future, I'll admit I'm way too soft to do what most of you > do. I prefer climbing into bed after a clear night at the > telescope. Finding 1 to 10 new Near Earth Asteroids per > night sounds a lot easier. > > Cheers > > -- > Richard Kowalski > Catalina Sky Survey > Lunar and Planetary Laboratory > University of Arizona > Tucson, AZ? 85721 > http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/css/ From Impactika at aol.com Mon Jul 6 23:00:30 2009 From: Impactika at aol.com (Impactika at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 23:00:30 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - A lot of new Thin-Sections Message-ID: Hello List, Yes, I am back from Ensisheim. It was great seeing everybody there, as usual. Now I am hard at work updating my website. Since I have to start somewhere, I just cleaned up the Thin-Section Catalog. I added a whole bunch of new Thin-Sections, with great pictures of course. And since I really don't like deleting those pictures, I moved all the Sold pieces to the bottom of the page so you can still click on the Ref.# and see the pictures. Go take a look at: _http://www.impactika.com/TSlist.htm_ (http://www.impactika.com/TSlist.htm) And Enjoy. Next: The Meteorites Catalog. And some very rare historical pieces. And I just heard that another batch of Thin-sections will be coming soon. Maybe my new TS of Tagish will be in that one. Yes, Thin-Sections of Tagish Lake!. I finally got a piece big and solid enough to be cut in TS. It only took me 2 years. Thanks Erik! Any questions, just ask. Anne M. Black http://www.impactika.com/ IMPACTIKA at aol.com Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. http://www.imca.cc/ **************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003) From cynapse at charter.net Tue Jul 7 00:29:27 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:29:27 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive meteorite "collectable" In-Reply-To: <814451.44446.qm@web46405.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <814451.44446.qm@web46405.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Australian issued meteorite "coin": (mid list) http://www.prospectstampsandcoins.com.au/web/royal_aust_mint/2009_coins/index.html From grf2 at verizon.net Mon Jul 6 23:29:41 2009 From: grf2 at verizon.net (Jerry Flaherty) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:29:41 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: New Article: The meteorite collection in London Message-ID: <89707CA31F564309B2B3C5E2A378831C@ASUS> -------------------------------------------------- From: "PSRD" Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 8:45 PM To: Subject: New Article: The meteorite collection in London > Announcement from Planetary Science Research Discoveries [PSRD] > > New article online: Better Know A Meteorite Collection: Natural History > Museum in London, United Kingdom > > --------- > ILLUSTRATED ARTICLE at: > http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/July09/Meteorites.London.Museum.html > --------- > > FIND ALL ARTICLES: > http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/Archive/Contents.html > --------- > > PSRD is an educational web site supported by NASA's SMD Cosmochemistry > Program and the Hawaii Space Grant Consortium to share the latest research > on meteorites, planets, moons, and other bodies in our Solar System. > > You are subscribed to our free mailing list. > We never send attachments. > For more information please see > http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/PSRDsubscribe.html > > --------- > Jeff Taylor and Linda Martel > Hawaii Institute of Geophysics and Planetology, > University of Hawaii > psrd at higp.hawaii.edu > voice (808) 956-3899 > fax (808) 956-6322 > http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Mon Jul 6 23:41:51 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 05:41:51 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive meteorite"collectable" In-Reply-To: References: <814451.44446.qm@web46405.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a801c9feb4$de5153d0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> A medallion with Blinky Bill for you to engrave! ...aah, you mean the Campo coin? To complicate to order for me and you, because we would have to apply for an export permit first. (I hope the Royal Australian Mint knows about that problem). A lawyer could make fun in ordering such a coin and if he doesn't find any export permit icluded, he could incriminate the Australian Government/Royal Mint for illicit export of National Heritage... ....so stupid are these Aussie-laws. -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Darren Garrison Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 06:29 An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive meteorite"collectable" Australian issued meteorite "coin": (mid list) http://www.prospectstampsandcoins.com.au/web/royal_aust_mint/2009_coins/inde x.html ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From meteoriteguy at yahoo.com Tue Jul 7 01:50:46 2009 From: meteoriteguy at yahoo.com (meteoriteguy at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 22:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] AD HUGE Ebay sale today. More than 70 one cent items. Message-ID: <155257.841.qm@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Check out this beauty selling on ebay in a few hours. One of the best oriented Sikhote-Alin "Heat-shield" pieces I have sold in years, huge of flow lines on one side, so large you can cut yourself with them. The piece seems to have fragemented in flight, as the other side while sheared off, still shows overflow of crust. http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ140178080582 See all available items at the link below, there are way too many to list here. http://www.meteorite.com/farmer/ Keep me in the field, buy from my ebay sales and keep a hunter going. From meteoritemike at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 07:45:13 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 07:45:13 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive meteorite"collectable" In-Reply-To: <00a801c9feb4$de5153d0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> References: <814451.44446.qm@web46405.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <00a801c9feb4$de5153d0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: Hi Martin and List, Does anyone else find it ironic that the Aussies will put an Argentinian meteorite on their Australian coin? The Aussie government doesn't want it's own meteorites leaving it's borders in the hands of non-Aussie citizens, so they will take another nation's meteorites and use those instead. Talk about hypocritical. Talk about playing games with permits and laws. They should stick to Fosters beer. Best regards, MikeG On 7/6/09, Martin Altmann wrote: > A medallion with Blinky Bill for you to engrave! > > ...aah, you mean the Campo coin? > > To complicate to order for me and you, > because we would have to apply for an export permit first. > > (I hope the Royal Australian Mint knows about that problem). > > A lawyer could make fun in ordering such a coin and if he doesn't find any > export permit icluded, > he could incriminate the Australian Government/Royal Mint for illicit export > of National Heritage... > > ....so stupid are these Aussie-laws. > > > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Darren > Garrison > Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 06:29 > An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive > meteorite"collectable" > > Australian issued meteorite "coin": > > (mid list) > > http://www.prospectstampsandcoins.com.au/web/royal_aust_mint/2009_coins/inde > x.html > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com Tue Jul 7 07:44:46 2009 From: SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com (SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 07:44:46 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - July 7, 2009 Message-ID: http://www.rocksfromspace.org/July_7_2009.html __________________________ **************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003) From thomasmeteorites at wanadoo.fr Tue Jul 7 03:06:17 2009 From: thomasmeteorites at wanadoo.fr (Philippe Thomas) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 09:06:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone haveinfo on these? (or specimens?) Message-ID: <28893524.94588.1246950377420.JavaMail.www@wwinf1f16> Dear Dave and List, In the report of Biot on the meteorite of L'Aigle, there is no mentionned that a person was hit by a stone. In its conclusion, Biot only says that one named Piche, an inhabitant from the village of Aun?es, Commune of Gloss, which worked outdoors at the time of the explosion: that a stone brushed (not strucked) his arm and fell at his feet, he wanted to pick it up but it was hot and he left it fallen quite frightened. Here is the original sentence in French: "...une pierre rasa le long de son bras, et tomba ? ses pieds ; il voulut la ramasser, mais elle ?tait br?lante , et il la laissa retomber tout effray?..." Further by speaking about stones, Biot said: We tell to have seen them going down along roofs, breaking branches of trees, spattering by falling on the pavement. We say that we saw the ground smoking around the biggest and that we held them hot in hands. Sorry if the translation isn't perfect. Best wishes, Philippe Mike/All, The boy in Mbale was photographed with the small stone in his hand and was also in some video footage taken at the time of the fall by the Dutch group. Both can be seen here: http://www.fallingrocks.com/Collections/Mbale.htm, but I gather that no one knows where that 3 gram stone is today. Jean Baptiste-Biot also recorded testimony from a man who claimed to have been struck in the arm by a L'Aigle stone. Given the veracity, worldwide acceptance and historic nature of his report, there's probably a better than average chance it's true, but we'll never know. Some info here: http://www.fallingrocks.com/Collections/L'Aigle.htm. All best, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Galactic Stone & Ironworks Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 12:19 PM To: Meteorite List Subject: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone haveinfo on these? (or specimens?) Hi List and Hammer Fans, (MC Hammer fans please skip this post - this is about Hammer Meteorites, not rappers) While reading through Grady's Catalogue of Meteorites last night, I ran across some entries that describe possible hammer falls. I was wondering if someone here on the List might have more information about them, or possibly a specimen (or photo). Mbale - everyone knows it's a hammer because it struck many buildings. But, the entry in the Catalogue of Mets states - "...The stones hit several buildings, but nobody was hurt, although a young boy was apparently hit on the head..." It then goes on to say that an expedition by the Dutch Meteor Society investigated the fall and documented 48 impact locations. Did they (or anyone) investigate the claim of the boy being hit on the head? Since everyone refers to Sylacauga as the only meteorite documented to strike a human being in modern times, then I am I right to assume that the Mbale boy was debunked or never proven? ... Mhow (yes, I was reading through the M's!) - Mhow is an obscure L6 fall from India. On Feb 16, 1827 at 15:00 hrs local time, 4 or 5 stones fell and that one struck a tree and another wounded a man. This was an L6 chondrite. Was this claim ever investigated at any time? ... Neagari - Feb 18, 1995 Japanese fall, L6 chondrite. The Catalogue of Mets states : "...The next morning, in the city of Neagari, Mr. K. Sasatani found a hole in the boot of his car and meteorite fragments were on and inside the boot." For those of us West of the Big Pond, a car boot is a car trunk. ;) I guess it doesn't matter if this claim was substantiated or not because the finder owns the entire main mass and only a small type specimen exists at the Tokyo Museum. So this one is unattainable - unless someone wants to offer Mr. Sasatani some sake and loosen him up to an offer. ;) ... I'm sure I'll run across more of these as I make my way through the Catalogue. Best regards and clear skies, MikeG -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. From thomasmeteorites at wanadoo.fr Tue Jul 7 08:44:31 2009 From: thomasmeteorites at wanadoo.fr (Philippe Thomas) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:44:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [meteorite-list] =?utf-8?q?R=C3=A9p_=3A__Lost_or_Unconfirmed_Hamm?= =?utf-8?q?er_Falls_-_Anyone_haveinfo_on_these=3F_=28or_specimens=3F=29?= Message-ID: <33384842.107233.1246970671093.JavaMail.www@wwinf1f12> Dear Dave and List, In the report of Biot on the meteorite of L'Aigle, there is no mentionned that a person was hit by a stone. In its conclusion, Biot only says that one named Piche, an inhabitant from the village of Aun?es, Commune of Gloss, which worked outdoors at the time of the explosion: that a stone brushed (not strucked) his arm and fell at his feet, he wanted to pick it up but it was hot and he left it fallen quite frightened. Here is the original sentence in French: "...une pierre rasa le long de son bras, et tomba ? ses pieds ; il voulut la ramasser, mais elle ?tait br?lante , et il la laissa retomber tout effray?..." Further by speaking about stones, Biot said: We tell to have seen them going down along roofs, breaking branches of trees, spattering by falling on the pavement. We say that we saw the ground smoking around the biggest and that we held them hot in hands. Sorry if the translation isn't perfect. Best wishes, Philippe Mike/All, The boy in Mbale was photographed with the small stone in his hand and was also in some video footage taken at the time of the fall by the Dutch group. Both can be seen here: http://www.fallingrocks.com/Collections/Mbale.htm, but I gather that no one knows where that 3 gram stone is today. Jean Baptiste-Biot also recorded testimony from a man who claimed to have been struck in the arm by a L'Aigle stone. Given the veracity, worldwide acceptance and historic nature of his report, there's probably a better than average chance it's true, but we'll never know. Some info here: http://www.fallingrocks.com/Collections/L'Aigle.htm. All best, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Galactic Stone & Ironworks Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 12:19 PM To: Meteorite List Subject: [meteorite-list] Lost or Unconfirmed Hammer Falls - Anyone haveinfo on these? (or specimens?) Hi List and Hammer Fans, (MC Hammer fans please skip this post - this is about Hammer Meteorites, not rappers) While reading through Grady's Catalogue of Meteorites last night, I ran across some entries that describe possible hammer falls. I was wondering if someone here on the List might have more information about them, or possibly a specimen (or photo). Mbale - everyone knows it's a hammer because it struck many buildings. But, the entry in the Catalogue of Mets states - "...The stones hit several buildings, but nobody was hurt, although a young boy was apparently hit on the head..." It then goes on to say that an expedition by the Dutch Meteor Society investigated the fall and documented 48 impact locations. Did they (or anyone) investigate the claim of the boy being hit on the head? Since everyone refers to Sylacauga as the only meteorite documented to strike a human being in modern times, then I am I right to assume that the Mbale boy was debunked or never proven? ... Mhow (yes, I was reading through the M's!) - Mhow is an obscure L6 fall from India. On Feb 16, 1827 at 15:00 hrs local time, 4 or 5 stones fell and that one struck a tree and another wounded a man. This was an L6 chondrite. Was this claim ever investigated at any time? ... Neagari - Feb 18, 1995 Japanese fall, L6 chondrite. The Catalogue of Mets states : "...The next morning, in the city of Neagari, Mr. K. Sasatani found a hole in the boot of his car and meteorite fragments were on and inside the boot." For those of us West of the Big Pond, a car boot is a car trunk. ;) I guess it doesn't matter if this claim was substantiated or not because the finder owns the entire main mass and only a small type specimen exists at the Tokyo Museum. So this one is unattainable - unless someone wants to offer Mr. Sasatani some sake and loosen him up to an offer. ;) ... I'm sure I'll run across more of these as I make my way through the Catalogue. Best regards and clear skies, MikeG -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Tue Jul 7 10:23:52 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 16:23:52 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive meteorite"collectable" In-Reply-To: References: <814451.44446.qm@web46405.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <00a801c9feb4$de5153d0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: <001b01c9ff0e$8e50e120$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> No, it shows only how exotic these laws are. I'm sure the "Australian Government" doesn't intentionally want to keep the Australian meteorites in Australia, I'm rather convinced that quite nobody in the Australian government is aware of that law at all, because normal people don't know about meteorites or care about at all. And you have to keep in mind, how such laws happen. The most probable scenario is, that there are a handful of curators or meteorite scientists, who express their wishes, that the national meteorites should be theirs or that they should end in their hands or what ever their motivation might be. No matter how thought-out their ideas are, and they are sitting in a committee or elsewhere they give the recommendation to the legislature, that meteorites do have to be protected. Legislature means: politicians and civil servants. Of course these people can't have any idea what a meteorite is, how they are found, how many do exist, what for a scientific or economical value they have or don't have and how they were exchanged between finders, museums, dealers, collectors in past. At best they have heard of artefacts, dinosaurs, resources - and know, that these other - in their eyes similar - objects, have to be protected and are of great importance - and anyway the proposal to protect meteorites comes from scientists, hence people, who are supposed to know about what they are talking, therefore they will always wave that petition through and will add the word "meteorites" into the relevant already existent laws. You see it in the Aussie-Natural-Heritage lists, there they simply added "meteorites", it would have been logic to add the Australian tektites too - they are much more valuable than that Henbury, Mundrabilla, Boxhole, Camel Donga, Millbillillie stuff and much more rare, but you don't find them there. There you can see how arbitrary that all is. Or think to Poland - in the last 70 years they had 4 (four) meteorites there - so I really doubt, that any politician would have seen an urgent need for action to create a law for meteorites - but they did, so bizarre or droll this may sound to you. Most probably because a panjandrum put a bug in a clerk's or politician's ear. Or because one from the latter felt for the usual rubbish in the newspapers, that meteorites would have a value of millions of dollars per stone and are trafficked and dealt by shady persons by thousands of tons on ominous black markets. So that they get alerted, to protect the thousands of tons and quadrillions of Zloty of their Polish meteorites (and to get a faster promotion). But! If once a word is added into a law, then it will be horribly difficult to remove it from there again. Look - nobody could have said anything about that experiment to protect meteorites in Australia. Now we can judge the results, because enough time has elapsed to see, what the impact of this laws were. Well and there everybody can see, that the law had a converse effect than initially intended: Much, much less meteorites are recovered and almost no Australian meteorites end up anymore in the Australian institutional collections and universities. Wait - I will look in the Bulletin Database. During the last 10 years - 1999-2009 2007: Bunburra Rockhole, EUC, tkw 324g - a Fall 2006: Eldee 001 L6, S3, W1-2 tkw 4.51kg, Eldee 002 L6-melt breccia, W2 tkw 101g Yaringie H6, tkw 5.75 kg 2003: Prospector Pool Iron, ungrouped tkw 2.77kg 2002: Myrtle Springs H4 tkw 53g (Hello Don!) 1999: Dunbogan L6 tkw 30g a Fall Reid 028 H6, W3 tkw 30g Makes up 8 (eight) meteorites. Australia has a total of 649 meteorites. And these, Ladies and Gentlemen, were the complete officially recorded new meteorites of the decade of a whole continent, a continent full of deserts. For you in USA, where no such laws exist, to compare: (I don't know, whether your deserts are of comparable size and so suitable for meteorites like the Australian deserts) But USA had in the same time: 1999-2009 officially recorded in the Bulletins: 282 new meteorites And USA has a total of 1576 meteorites. GIST OF THAT POSTING: ---> during the last 10 years 18% of all known US-meteorites were found ---> during the last 10 years 1% of all known Aussie-meteorites were found I use the percentage to exclude factors like population density, properties of the surface and size of overall surface.... So we see, there has to be done something. We here on the list are often only lousy laymen, even most of us not citizens of Australia, we have no influence on Australian legislation. But scientists pled for the laws, which led to the leakage of new Australian meteorites, so maybe scientists could pled for an amendment to these laws, for them finally getting meteorites to work with again. Therefore we all could ask Alex Bevan, Bill Birch, the McColls, Ross Pogson...all the Australian meteoricists - not to forget Caroline Smith, cause just yesterday here an article about London was shown, with the link to the blog where she went hunting in Australia, one of the few persons, who were looking for meteorites down-under at all, so she knows the situation too, and of course the Meteoritical Society, that they all perhaps will write at the end a memorandum to improve the sad situation in Australia and to find better laws. But also the other scientists should help their colleagues from down-under. Huh, once I was told by a list member, a German who had emigrated to Australia, that he would need even an export permit for his German meteorites from his collection, if he wants to bring them out of Australia. That's a perfect integration, I'd say, if the belongings of an immigrant get immediately National Heritage of Australia. But also somewhat weird. Uh imagine, if someone sends a suspected stone to Bevan to Australia and it will turn out and classified to be a meteorite. Then he has to apply for an export permit to get the stone back? Australia has so fine meteorites and had once such a meteorite tradition, the superb Wolf-Creek-Crater - well worth to have a meteorite or mineral fair there. But nobody from other countries will come with meteorites, cause the paper-warfare would be a mess. A not so theoretical question: The meteorite sellers in most cases have a return policy, which allows the buyers to send the specimens back, if they aren't fully satisfied. What one has to do, if that happens with an Australian collector? That all is so strange. But I think, it could be of importance, that Australia where the situation became so evident, that the laws disrupted almost fully new finds and meteorite research and where the scientists are very disappointed about the situation, would come to a more reasonable solution, because it could be a signal for other desert countries and maybe also for the few not yet so informed proponents and Luddites, who want to have similar laws there, to avoid such a disaster like had happened in Australia. Well happy finding, And greetings to Blinky Bill! Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Galactic Stone & Ironworks [mailto:meteoritemike at gmail.com] Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 13:45 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive meteorite"collectable" Hi Martin and List, Does anyone else find it ironic that the Aussies will put an Argentinian meteorite on their Australian coin? The Aussie government doesn't want it's own meteorites leaving it's borders in the hands of non-Aussie citizens, so they will take another nation's meteorites and use those instead. Talk about hypocritical. Talk about playing games with permits and laws. They should stick to Fosters beer. Best regards, MikeG On 7/6/09, Martin Altmann wrote: > A medallion with Blinky Bill for you to engrave! > > ...aah, you mean the Campo coin? > > To complicate to order for me and you, > because we would have to apply for an export permit first. > > (I hope the Royal Australian Mint knows about that problem). > > A lawyer could make fun in ordering such a coin and if he doesn't find any > export permit icluded, > he could incriminate the Australian Government/Royal Mint for illicit export > of National Heritage... > > ....so stupid are these Aussie-laws. > > > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Darren > Garrison > Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 06:29 > An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive > meteorite"collectable" > > Australian issued meteorite "coin": > > (mid list) > > http://www.prospectstampsandcoins.com.au/web/royal_aust_mint/2009_coins/inde > x.html > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From meteoritemike at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 10:41:17 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 10:41:17 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive meteorite"collectable" In-Reply-To: <001b01c9ff0e$8e50e120$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> References: <814451.44446.qm@web46405.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <00a801c9feb4$de5153d0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> <001b01c9ff0e$8e50e120$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: Hi Martin and List, Well analyzed Martin. Reading your posts on these matters is like receiving an education. Now if we could just get the governments in question to read this list and consider what Martin has written extensively on, then we might see a return to reason. It is in nobody's best interest to restrict the search for, discovery of, and trade of meteorites. Best regards and clear skies, MikeG On 7/7/09, Martin Altmann wrote: > No, > > it shows only how exotic these laws are. > > I'm sure the "Australian Government" doesn't intentionally want to keep the > Australian meteorites in Australia, > I'm rather convinced that quite nobody in the Australian government is aware > of that law at all, > because normal people don't know about meteorites or care about at all. > > And you have to keep in mind, how such laws happen. > The most probable scenario is, > that there are a handful of curators or meteorite scientists, who express > their wishes, that the national meteorites should be theirs or that they > should end in their hands or what ever their motivation might be. > No matter how thought-out their ideas are, > and they are sitting in a committee or elsewhere > they give the recommendation to the legislature, that meteorites do have to > be protected. > > Legislature means: politicians and civil servants. > Of course these people can't have any idea what a meteorite is, how they are > found, how many do exist, what for a scientific or economical value they > have or don't have and how they were exchanged between finders, museums, > dealers, collectors in past. > At best they have heard of artefacts, dinosaurs, resources - and know, that > these other - in their eyes similar - objects, have to be protected and are > of great importance - > and anyway the proposal to protect meteorites comes from scientists, hence > people, who are supposed to know about what they are talking, > therefore they will always wave that petition through > and will add the word "meteorites" into the relevant already existent laws. > > You see it in the Aussie-Natural-Heritage lists, > there they simply added "meteorites", > it would have been logic to add the Australian tektites too - they are much > more valuable than that Henbury, Mundrabilla, Boxhole, Camel Donga, > Millbillillie stuff and much more rare, but you don't find them there. > There you can see how arbitrary that all is. > > Or think to Poland - in the last 70 years they had 4 (four) meteorites there > - so I really doubt, that any politician would have seen an urgent need for > action to create a law for meteorites > - but they did, so bizarre or droll this may sound to you. > Most probably because a panjandrum put a bug in a clerk's or politician's > ear. Or because one from the latter felt for the usual rubbish in the > newspapers, that meteorites would have a value of millions of dollars per > stone and are trafficked and dealt by shady persons by thousands of tons on > ominous black markets. So that they get alerted, to protect the thousands of > tons and quadrillions of Zloty of their Polish meteorites > (and to get a faster promotion). > > > > But! If once a word is added into a law, > then it will be horribly difficult to remove it from there again. > > Look - nobody could have said anything about that experiment to protect > meteorites in Australia. > Now we can judge the results, because enough time has elapsed to see, what > the impact of this laws were. > > Well and there everybody can see, that the law had a converse effect than > initially intended: Much, much less meteorites are recovered and almost no > Australian meteorites end up anymore in the Australian institutional > collections and universities. > > Wait - I will look in the Bulletin Database. > > During the last 10 years - 1999-2009 > > 2007: Bunburra Rockhole, EUC, tkw 324g - a Fall > > 2006: Eldee 001 L6, S3, W1-2 tkw 4.51kg, > Eldee 002 L6-melt breccia, W2 tkw 101g > Yaringie H6, tkw 5.75 kg > > 2003: Prospector Pool Iron, ungrouped tkw 2.77kg > > 2002: Myrtle Springs H4 tkw 53g (Hello > Don!) > > 1999: Dunbogan L6 tkw 30g a Fall > Reid 028 H6, W3 tkw 30g > > Makes up 8 (eight) meteorites. > Australia has a total of 649 meteorites. > > > And these, Ladies and Gentlemen, were the complete officially recorded new > meteorites of the decade of a whole continent, a continent full of deserts. > > For you in USA, where no such laws exist, to compare: > (I don't know, whether your deserts are of comparable size and so suitable > for meteorites like the Australian deserts) > > But USA had in the same time: > 1999-2009 officially recorded in the Bulletins: > > 282 new meteorites > > And USA has a total of 1576 meteorites. > > GIST OF THAT POSTING: > > > > > ---> during the last 10 years 18% of all known US-meteorites were found > > ---> during the last 10 years 1% of all known Aussie-meteorites were found > > > > > > > > > I use the percentage to exclude factors like population density, properties > of the surface and size of overall surface.... > > So we see, there has to be done something. > > We here on the list are often only lousy laymen, even most of us not > citizens of Australia, we have no influence on Australian legislation. > > But scientists pled for the laws, which led to the leakage of new Australian > meteorites, so maybe scientists could pled for an amendment to these laws, > for them finally getting meteorites to work with again. > > Therefore we all could ask Alex Bevan, Bill Birch, the McColls, Ross > Pogson...all the Australian meteoricists - not to forget Caroline Smith, > cause just yesterday here an article about London was shown, with the link > to the blog where she went hunting in Australia, one of the few persons, who > were looking for meteorites down-under at all, so she knows the situation > too, > and of course the Meteoritical Society, > that they all perhaps will write at the end a memorandum to improve the sad > situation in Australia and to find better laws. > But also the other scientists should help their colleagues from down-under. > > > Huh, once I was told by a list member, a German who had emigrated to > Australia, that he would need even an export permit for his German > meteorites from his collection, if he wants to bring them out of Australia. > That's a perfect integration, I'd say, if the belongings of an immigrant get > immediately National Heritage of Australia. But also somewhat weird. > > Uh imagine, if someone sends a suspected stone to Bevan to Australia and it > will turn out and classified to be a meteorite. Then he has to apply for an > export permit to get the stone back? > > Australia has so fine meteorites and had once such a meteorite tradition, > the superb Wolf-Creek-Crater - well worth to have a meteorite or mineral > fair there. But nobody from other countries will come with meteorites, cause > the paper-warfare would be a mess. > > A not so theoretical question: > > The meteorite sellers in most cases have a return policy, which allows the > buyers to send the specimens back, if they aren't fully satisfied. > What one has to do, if that happens with an Australian collector? > > That all is so strange. > > But I think, it could be of importance, that Australia where the situation > became so evident, that the laws disrupted almost fully new finds and > meteorite research > and where the scientists are very disappointed about the situation, > would come to a more reasonable solution, > because it could be a signal for other desert countries and maybe also for > the few not yet so informed proponents and Luddites, who want to have > similar laws there, to avoid such a disaster like had happened in Australia. > > Well happy finding, > And greetings to Blinky Bill! > Martin > > > > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Galactic Stone & Ironworks [mailto:meteoritemike at gmail.com] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 13:45 > An: Martin Altmann > Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive > meteorite"collectable" > > Hi Martin and List, > > Does anyone else find it ironic that the Aussies will put an > Argentinian meteorite on their Australian coin? The Aussie government > doesn't want it's own meteorites leaving it's borders in the hands of > non-Aussie citizens, so they will take another nation's meteorites and > use those instead. Talk about hypocritical. Talk about playing games > with permits and laws. They should stick to Fosters beer. > > Best regards, > > MikeG > > > > > > On 7/6/09, Martin Altmann wrote: >> A medallion with Blinky Bill for you to engrave! >> >> ...aah, you mean the Campo coin? >> >> To complicate to order for me and you, >> because we would have to apply for an export permit first. >> >> (I hope the Royal Australian Mint knows about that problem). >> >> A lawyer could make fun in ordering such a coin and if he doesn't find any >> export permit icluded, >> he could incriminate the Australian Government/Royal Mint for illicit > export >> of National Heritage... >> >> ....so stupid are these Aussie-laws. >> >> >> >> >> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com >> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Darren >> Garrison >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 06:29 >> An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Betreff: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive >> meteorite"collectable" >> >> Australian issued meteorite "coin": >> >> (mid list) >> >> > http://www.prospectstampsandcoins.com.au/web/royal_aust_mint/2009_coins/inde >> x.html >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > > -- > ......................................................... > Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) > Member of the Meteoritical Society. > Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. > Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com > .......................................................... > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From MeteorHntr at aol.com Tue Jul 7 10:56:55 2009 From: MeteorHntr at aol.com (MeteorHntr at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 10:56:55 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive meteorite"collectable" Message-ID: List, Someone should copy off Martin's replies, have them printed on vellum, hard bound and sold as a meteorite collectible themselves. Whatever the price, it wouldn't be too expensive. Or maybe they can each be framed and hung on the walls for all to see. Or possibly they can be engraved in granite to be preserved for a millennia. Please keep the sage advice coming Martin! Steve Arnold of "Meteorite Men" In a message dated 7/7/2009 9:29:38 A.M. Central Daylight Time, altmann at meteorite-martin.de writes: No, it shows only how exotic these laws are. I'm sure the "Australian Government" doesn't intentionally want to keep the Australian meteorites in Australia, I'm rather convinced that quite nobody in the Australian government is aware of that law at all, because normal people don't know about meteorites or care about at all. And you have to keep in mind, how such laws happen. The most probable scenario is, that there are a handful of curators or meteorite scientists, who express their wishes, that the national meteorites should be theirs or that they should end in their hands or what ever their motivation might be. No matter how thought-out their ideas are, and they are sitting in a committee or elsewhere they give the recommendation to the legislature, that meteorites do have to be protected. Legislature means: politicians and civil servants. Of course these people can't have any idea what a meteorite is, how they are found, how many do exist, what for a scientific or economical value they have or don't have and how they were exchanged between finders, museums, dealers, collectors in past. At best they have heard of artefacts, dinosaurs, resources - and know, that these other - in their eyes similar - objects, have to be protected and are of great importance - and anyway the proposal to protect meteorites comes from scientists, hence people, who are supposed to know about what they are talking, therefore they will always wave that petition through and will add the word "meteorites" into the relevant already existent laws. You see it in the Aussie-Natural-Heritage lists, there they simply added "meteorites", it would have been logic to add the Australian tektites too - they are much more valuable than that Henbury, Mundrabilla, Boxhole, Camel Donga, Millbillillie stuff and much more rare, but you don't find them there. There you can see how arbitrary that all is. Or think to Poland - in the last 70 years they had 4 (four) meteorites there - so I really doubt, that any politician would have seen an urgent need for action to create a law for meteorites - but they did, so bizarre or droll this may sound to you. Most probably because a panjandrum put a bug in a clerk's or politician's ear. Or because one from the latter felt for the usual rubbish in the newspapers, that meteorites would have a value of millions of dollars per stone and are trafficked and dealt by shady persons by thousands of tons on ominous black markets. So that they get alerted, to protect the thousands of tons and quadrillions of Zloty of their Polish meteorites (and to get a faster promotion). But! If once a word is added into a law, then it will be horribly difficult to remove it from there again. Look - nobody could have said anything about that experiment to protect meteorites in Australia. Now we can judge the results, because enough time has elapsed to see, what the impact of this laws were. Well and there everybody can see, that the law had a converse effect than initially intended: Much, much less meteorites are recovered and almost no Australian meteorites end up anymore in the Australian institutional collections and universities. Wait - I will look in the Bulletin Database. During the last 10 years - 1999-2009 2007: Bunburra Rockhole, EUC, tkw 324g - a Fall 2006: Eldee 001 L6, S3, W1-2 tkw 4.51kg, Eldee 002 L6-melt breccia, W2 tkw 101g Yaringie H6, tkw 5.75 kg 2003: Prospector Pool Iron, ungrouped tkw 2.77kg 2002: Myrtle Springs H4 tkw 53g (Hello Don!) 1999: Dunbogan L6 tkw 30g a Fall Reid 028 H6, W3 tkw 30g Makes up 8 (eight) meteorites. Australia has a total of 649 meteorites. And these, Ladies and Gentlemen, were the complete officially recorded new meteorites of the decade of a whole continent, a continent full of deserts. For you in USA, where no such laws exist, to compare: (I don't know, whether your deserts are of comparable size and so suitable for meteorites like the Australian deserts) But USA had in the same time: 1999-2009 officially recorded in the Bulletins: 282 new meteorites And USA has a total of 1576 meteorites. GIST OF THAT POSTING: ---> during the last 10 years 18% of all known US-meteorites were found ---> during the last 10 years 1% of all known Aussie-meteorites were found I use the percentage to exclude factors like population density, properties of the surface and size of overall surface.... So we see, there has to be done something. We here on the list are often only lousy laymen, even most of us not citizens of Australia, we have no influence on Australian legislation. But scientists pled for the laws, which led to the leakage of new Australian meteorites, so maybe scientists could pled for an amendment to these laws, for them finally getting meteorites to work with again. Therefore we all could ask Alex Bevan, Bill Birch, the McColls, Ross Pogson...all the Australian meteoricists - not to forget Caroline Smith, cause just yesterday here an article about London was shown, with the link to the blog where she went hunting in Australia, one of the few persons, who were looking for meteorites down-under at all, so she knows the situation too, and of course the Meteoritical Society, that they all perhaps will write at the end a memorandum to improve the sad situation in Australia and to find better laws. But also the other scientists should help their colleagues from down-under. Huh, once I was told by a list member, a German who had emigrated to Australia, that he would need even an export permit for his German meteorites from his collection, if he wants to bring them out of Australia. That's a perfect integration, I'd say, if the belongings of an immigrant get immediately National Heritage of Australia. But also somewhat weird. Uh imagine, if someone sends a suspected stone to Bevan to Australia and it will turn out and classified to be a meteorite. Then he has to apply for an export permit to get the stone back? Australia has so fine meteorites and had once such a meteorite tradition, the superb Wolf-Creek-Crater - well worth to have a meteorite or mineral fair there. But nobody from other countries will come with meteorites, cause the paper-warfare would be a mess. A not so theoretical question: The meteorite sellers in most cases have a return policy, which allows the buyers to send the specimens back, if they aren't fully satisfied. What one has to do, if that happens with an Australian collector? That all is so strange. But I think, it could be of importance, that Australia where the situation became so evident, that the laws disrupted almost fully new finds and meteorite research and where the scientists are very disappointed about the situation, would come to a more reasonable solution, because it could be a signal for other desert countries and maybe also for the few not yet so informed proponents and Luddites, who want to have similar laws there, to avoid such a disaster like had happened in Australia. Well happy finding, And greetings to Blinky Bill! Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Galactic Stone & Ironworks [mailto:meteoritemike at gmail.com] Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 13:45 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive meteorite"collectable" Hi Martin and List, Does anyone else find it ironic that the Aussies will put an Argentinian meteorite on their Australian coin? The Aussie government doesn't want it's own meteorites leaving it's borders in the hands of non-Aussie citizens, so they will take another nation's meteorites and use those instead. Talk about hypocritical. Talk about playing games with permits and laws. They should stick to Fosters beer. Best regards, MikeG On 7/6/09, Martin Altmann wrote: > A medallion with Blinky Bill for you to engrave! > > ...aah, you mean the Campo coin? > > To complicate to order for me and you, > because we would have to apply for an export permit first. > > (I hope the Royal Australian Mint knows about that problem). > > A lawyer could make fun in ordering such a coin and if he doesn't find any > export permit icluded, > he could incriminate the Australian Government/Royal Mint for illicit export > of National Heritage... > > ....so stupid are these Aussie-laws. > > > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Darren > Garrison > Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 06:29 > An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive > meteorite"collectable" > > Australian issued meteorite "coin": > > (mid list) > > http://www.prospectstampsandcoins.com.au/web/royal_aust_mint/2009_coins/inde > x.html > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585089x1201462806/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jul yExcfooterNO62) From MeteorHntr at aol.com Tue Jul 7 11:13:13 2009 From: MeteorHntr at aol.com (MeteorHntr at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 11:13:13 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive meteorite"collectable" Message-ID: MikeG and all, You said: "It is in nobody's best interest to restrict the search for, discovery of, and trade of meteorites." I want to correct you. It is in the financial short term best interest for researches and their institutions in a country to get grant money to study their new meteorites. If they let the new meteorites out of their borders, that is potentially millions of dollars those institutions won't get of grant money that someone else will get. That is the ONLY logical reason. A bad reason, but it is a reason. And that greed and selfishness is strong enough in some places to get the stupid laws past. As Martin pointed out, in many cases it might just be one researcher the nudges the right person to get such a law passed. Of course the results of such thinking is bad in the long term, but nowadays, no one seems to care about the long term, only the short term. Steve Arnold of "Meteorite Men" In a message dated 7/7/2009 9:41:36 A.M. Central Daylight Time, meteoritemike at gmail.com writes: Hi Martin and List, Well analyzed Martin. Reading your posts on these matters is like receiving an education. Now if we could just get the governments in question to read this list and consider what Martin has written extensively on, then we might see a return to reason. It is in nobody's best interest to restrict the search for, discovery of, and trade of meteorites. Best regards and clear skies, MikeG **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585089x1201462806/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jul yExcfooterNO62) From meteoritemike at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 11:45:02 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 11:45:02 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive meteorite"collectable" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Steve and List, My curse/talent for oversimplification strikes again. Yes Steve, you are right on the money with that. I think science should always get first look at scientifically-interesting new meteorites. But, outside or freelance hunters should not be ignored either - look at the Tagish Lake debacle for example. Frankly, if another H chondrite or common coarse octahedrite lands in the Australian Outback or the Canadian Yukon, why should science want a monopoly on the material, or to severely restrict it? Is there some hidden meaning inside an L6 chondrite that has not been revealed with decades of research on thousands on similar specimens? What benefit are scientists reaping by keeping the gates closed on lands around Canyon Diablo? Have any new insights come from the study of these materials that is sufficient to justify their restriction? IMO, no. Look at the new Martian announced on the list recently by Chaldni's Heirs and the Hupes - sure, some ended up on eBay and into private cabinets, but much more of the material ended up going to institutions and universities for study. But where would this new Martian be if private individuals had not found it, traded it, brought it to light, classified it, and distributed it? It would have been buried by the next sandstorm and perhaps never found. Or maybe one of the hundreds of government and institutional expedition teams would have found it - you know, those teams that are out in there in droves tripping over each other to find specimens. ;) Buzzard Coulee is a good example - why the holdup on export permits? Have the Canadians used this new H4 chondrite to unlock quantum teleportation? Does it cure Alzheimers? Let the private market have a crack at it already. And if something exotic is discovered later and the H4 chondrite turns out to be something special, then there is plenty of material to go around anyway - the 41kg TKW stated in the Met Bulletin is very conservative. Why can't their be a synergy between the freelance hunters and the institutions/universities/governments? Why does the private market and the science have to be segregrated? On the one hand, lay people can join the Meteoritical Society and help support it's efforts financially (which many members voluntarily do through the endowment fund, myself included), yet as private collectors we are threatened with arrest if we try to park on the side of taxpayer-funded road and stoop down to pick up a 5gr piece of oxidized shale. It's silly and unnecessary. Best regards and happy huntings, MikeG On 7/7/09, MeteorHntr at aol.com wrote: > MikeG and all, > > You said: "It is in nobody's best interest to restrict the search for, > discovery > of, and trade of meteorites." > > I want to correct you. It is in the financial short term best interest > for researches and their institutions in a country to get grant money to > study their new meteorites. If they let the new meteorites out of their > borders, that is potentially millions of dollars those institutions won't > get of > grant money that someone else will get. > > That is the ONLY logical reason. A bad reason, but it is a reason. > > And that greed and selfishness is strong enough in some places to get the > stupid laws past. As Martin pointed out, in many cases it might just be > one researcher the nudges the right person to get such a law passed. > > Of course the results of such thinking is bad in the long term, but > nowadays, no one seems to care about the long term, only the short term. > > Steve Arnold > of "Meteorite Men" > > > In a message dated 7/7/2009 9:41:36 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > meteoritemike at gmail.com writes: > Hi Martin and List, > > Well analyzed Martin. Reading your posts on these matters is like > receiving an education. Now if we could just get the governments in > question to read this list and consider what Martin has written > extensively on, then we might see a return to reason. > > It is in nobody's best interest to restrict the search for, discovery > of, and trade of meteorites. > > Best regards and clear skies, > > MikeG > > **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy > Steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585089x1201462806/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jul > yExcfooterNO62) > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From marcin at meteoryt.net Tue Jul 7 11:33:09 2009 From: marcin at meteoryt.net (Marcin Cimala) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 17:33:09 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensivemeteorite"collectable" References: <814451.44446.qm@web46405.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><00a801c9feb4$de5153d0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> <001b01c9ff0e$8e50e120$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: <00de01c9ff18$3bec2700$0d00000a@polandmezrd5i9> "Gold Chondrule Avard" for Mr Altmann for longest emails ever posted to the list :D Just my two grosz, totaly off-topic. :) :D -----[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-----[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]----- http://www.Meteoryty.pl marcin(at)meteoryty.pl http://www.PolandMET.com marcin(at)polandmet.com http://www.Gao-Guenie.com GSM: +48 (793) kosmos --------[ Member of Polish Meteoritical Society ]-------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Altmann" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 4:23 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensivemeteorite"collectable" > No, > > it shows only how exotic these laws are. > > I'm sure the "Australian Government" doesn't intentionally want to keep > the > Australian meteorites in Australia, > I'm rather convinced that quite nobody in the Australian government is > aware > of that law at all, > because normal people don't know about meteorites or care about at all. > > And you have to keep in mind, how such laws happen. > The most probable scenario is, > that there are a handful of curators or meteorite scientists, who express > their wishes, that the national meteorites should be theirs or that they > should end in their hands or what ever their motivation might be. > No matter how thought-out their ideas are, > and they are sitting in a committee or elsewhere > they give the recommendation to the legislature, that meteorites do have > to > be protected. > > Legislature means: politicians and civil servants. > Of course these people can't have any idea what a meteorite is, how they > are > found, how many do exist, what for a scientific or economical value they > have or don't have and how they were exchanged between finders, museums, > dealers, collectors in past. > At best they have heard of artefacts, dinosaurs, resources - and know, > that > these other - in their eyes similar - objects, have to be protected and > are > of great importance - > and anyway the proposal to protect meteorites comes from scientists, hence > people, who are supposed to know about what they are talking, > therefore they will always wave that petition through > and will add the word "meteorites" into the relevant already existent > laws. > > You see it in the Aussie-Natural-Heritage lists, > there they simply added "meteorites", > it would have been logic to add the Australian tektites too - they are > much > more valuable than that Henbury, Mundrabilla, Boxhole, Camel Donga, > Millbillillie stuff and much more rare, but you don't find them there. > There you can see how arbitrary that all is. > > Or think to Poland - in the last 70 years they had 4 (four) meteorites > there > - so I really doubt, that any politician would have seen an urgent need > for > action to create a law for meteorites > - but they did, so bizarre or droll this may sound to you. > Most probably because a panjandrum put a bug in a clerk's or politician's > ear. Or because one from the latter felt for the usual rubbish in the > newspapers, that meteorites would have a value of millions of dollars per > stone and are trafficked and dealt by shady persons by thousands of tons > on > ominous black markets. So that they get alerted, to protect the thousands > of > tons and quadrillions of Zloty of their Polish meteorites > (and to get a faster promotion). > > > > But! If once a word is added into a law, > then it will be horribly difficult to remove it from there again. > > Look - nobody could have said anything about that experiment to protect > meteorites in Australia. > Now we can judge the results, because enough time has elapsed to see, what > the impact of this laws were. > > Well and there everybody can see, that the law had a converse effect than > initially intended: Much, much less meteorites are recovered and almost > no > Australian meteorites end up anymore in the Australian institutional > collections and universities. > > Wait - I will look in the Bulletin Database. > > During the last 10 years - 1999-2009 > > 2007: Bunburra Rockhole, EUC, tkw 324g - a Fall > > 2006: Eldee 001 L6, S3, W1-2 tkw 4.51kg, > Eldee 002 L6-melt breccia, W2 tkw 101g > Yaringie H6, tkw 5.75 kg > > 2003: Prospector Pool Iron, ungrouped tkw 2.77kg > > 2002: Myrtle Springs H4 tkw 53g (Hello > Don!) > > 1999: Dunbogan L6 tkw 30g a Fall > Reid 028 H6, W3 tkw 30g > > Makes up 8 (eight) meteorites. > Australia has a total of 649 meteorites. > > > And these, Ladies and Gentlemen, were the complete officially recorded new > meteorites of the decade of a whole continent, a continent full of > deserts. > > For you in USA, where no such laws exist, to compare: > (I don't know, whether your deserts are of comparable size and so suitable > for meteorites like the Australian deserts) > > But USA had in the same time: > 1999-2009 officially recorded in the Bulletins: > > 282 new meteorites > > And USA has a total of 1576 meteorites. > > GIST OF THAT POSTING: > > > > > ---> during the last 10 years 18% of all known US-meteorites were found > > ---> during the last 10 years 1% of all known Aussie-meteorites were > found > > > > > > > > > I use the percentage to exclude factors like population density, > properties > of the surface and size of overall surface.... > > So we see, there has to be done something. > > We here on the list are often only lousy laymen, even most of us not > citizens of Australia, we have no influence on Australian legislation. > > But scientists pled for the laws, which led to the leakage of new > Australian > meteorites, so maybe scientists could pled for an amendment to these laws, > for them finally getting meteorites to work with again. > > Therefore we all could ask Alex Bevan, Bill Birch, the McColls, Ross > Pogson...all the Australian meteoricists - not to forget Caroline Smith, > cause just yesterday here an article about London was shown, with the link > to the blog where she went hunting in Australia, one of the few persons, > who > were looking for meteorites down-under at all, so she knows the situation > too, > and of course the Meteoritical Society, > that they all perhaps will write at the end a memorandum to improve the > sad > situation in Australia and to find better laws. > But also the other scientists should help their colleagues from > down-under. > > > Huh, once I was told by a list member, a German who had emigrated to > Australia, that he would need even an export permit for his German > meteorites from his collection, if he wants to bring them out of > Australia. > That's a perfect integration, I'd say, if the belongings of an immigrant > get > immediately National Heritage of Australia. But also somewhat weird. > > Uh imagine, if someone sends a suspected stone to Bevan to Australia and > it > will turn out and classified to be a meteorite. Then he has to apply for > an > export permit to get the stone back? > > Australia has so fine meteorites and had once such a meteorite tradition, > the superb Wolf-Creek-Crater - well worth to have a meteorite or mineral > fair there. But nobody from other countries will come with meteorites, > cause > the paper-warfare would be a mess. > > A not so theoretical question: > > The meteorite sellers in most cases have a return policy, which allows the > buyers to send the specimens back, if they aren't fully satisfied. > What one has to do, if that happens with an Australian collector? > > That all is so strange. > > But I think, it could be of importance, that Australia where the situation > became so evident, that the laws disrupted almost fully new finds and > meteorite research > and where the scientists are very disappointed about the situation, > would come to a more reasonable solution, > because it could be a signal for other desert countries and maybe also for > the few not yet so informed proponents and Luddites, who want to have > similar laws there, to avoid such a disaster like had happened in > Australia. > > Well happy finding, > And greetings to Blinky Bill! > Martin > > > > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Galactic Stone & Ironworks [mailto:meteoritemike at gmail.com] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 13:45 > An: Martin Altmann > Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive > meteorite"collectable" > > Hi Martin and List, > > Does anyone else find it ironic that the Aussies will put an > Argentinian meteorite on their Australian coin? The Aussie government > doesn't want it's own meteorites leaving it's borders in the hands of > non-Aussie citizens, so they will take another nation's meteorites and > use those instead. Talk about hypocritical. Talk about playing games > with permits and laws. They should stick to Fosters beer. > > Best regards, > > MikeG > > > > > > On 7/6/09, Martin Altmann wrote: >> A medallion with Blinky Bill for you to engrave! >> >> ...aah, you mean the Campo coin? >> >> To complicate to order for me and you, >> because we would have to apply for an export permit first. >> >> (I hope the Royal Australian Mint knows about that problem). >> >> A lawyer could make fun in ordering such a coin and if he doesn't find >> any >> export permit icluded, >> he could incriminate the Australian Government/Royal Mint for illicit > export >> of National Heritage... >> >> ....so stupid are these Aussie-laws. >> >> >> >> >> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com >> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von >> Darren >> Garrison >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 06:29 >> An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Betreff: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive >> meteorite"collectable" >> >> Australian issued meteorite "coin": >> >> (mid list) >> >> > http://www.prospectstampsandcoins.com.au/web/royal_aust_mint/2009_coins/inde >> x.html >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > > -- > ......................................................... > Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) > Member of the Meteoritical Society. > Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. > Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com > .......................................................... > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From cynapse at charter.net Tue Jul 7 13:04:11 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:04:11 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive meteorite"collectable" In-Reply-To: <001b01c9ff0e$8e50e120$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> References: <814451.44446.qm@web46405.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <00a801c9feb4$de5153d0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> <001b01c9ff0e$8e50e120$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: <9qv65518ju48c5hu0kktam2k82rj4ftasi@4ax.com> On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 16:23:52 +0200, you wrote: >Legislature means: politicians and civil servants. >Of course these people can't have any idea what a meteorite is, how they are >found, how many do exist, what for a scientific or economical value they >have or don't have and how they were exchanged between finders, museums, >dealers, collectors in past. Also, being a successful politician doesn't require that you actually be very intelligent or well educated-- it requires only that you can tell a majority of the people what they want to hear. With "leaders" like this, maybe Arizona will be the next place to outlaw meteorites: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/07/jebus_how_do_these_dingbats_ge.php From meteoriteguy at yahoo.com Tue Jul 7 12:18:30 2009 From: meteoriteguy at yahoo.com (Michael Farmer) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 09:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Ad Large sale today, so cheap! Message-ID: <684619.97568.qm@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Check out this beauty selling on ebay in a few hours. Very nice large slice of Muonionalusta. This cost me more to cut and polish than the high bid right now! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400059849989 See all available items at the link below, there are way too many to list here. http://www.meteorite.com/farmer/ Keep me in the field, buy from my ebay sales and keep a hunter going. From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Tue Jul 7 12:23:33 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 09:23:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] LL4 S3 W1 is official! NWA 5799 Message-ID: <138790.17746.qm@web46401.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Just a quick note for all those that picked up some of the NWA LL4 S3 W1 from me, it is now officially named - NWA 5799 Greg C. From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Tue Jul 7 12:24:52 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 18:24:52 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensivemeteorite"collectable" In-Reply-To: References: <814451.44446.qm@web46405.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><00a801c9feb4$de5153d0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2><001b01c9ff0e$8e50e120$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: <002d01c9ff1f$76c48730$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Ah Mike and Steve, it's not a big thing. Each child can do these tiny stats, and each professional meteoriticist, would need to come to these simple conclusions, because he knows where to find the Bulletin Database on web, not more than 5 to 10 minutes. And that's why I'm often so impatient. Because the data are so clear and the opposite of a secret. And sometimes so shocked (e.g. when I had read that the former president of MetSoc.....ooops, - and so often not diplomatical, therefore shhhhhht). But in general, cause I'm sometimes asked by people, who found on web an article about meteorites, or often also by friends, who have nothing to do at all with meteorites, some of them scientists in other fields, but also "ordinary" people like you and me, and with them, if you only present the numbers and figures (which everybody could find out more or less easily in web), Then they are more than astonished about what's going on in the meteorite world. Because nobody can understand, what unfortunately is going on in meteorite science and politics regarding the very meteorites. Cause it's highly inefficient and illogical. With figures and numbers I mean: The find rates: In Antarctica, In desert countries. In countries with protectionist laws before and after In countries without protectionist laws. Of "private" parties Of "official" expeditions. The find rates before the desert rush. The find rates during the desert rush. The weights of the finds from everywhere The weights of the "interesting" types among these. The monetary aspects: The costs of the Antarctic campaigns. The costs of the "official" expeditions. The costs of meteorites on "the market" The volume of traded meteorites in total. The costs of meteorites in history. The costs of meteorites today. The budget of universities and museum to acquire meteorites today The budget of universities and museum to acquire meteorites spent yesterday. The budgets of universities for acquisitions in other departments. The costs for branches of science dealing with similar questions like meteoritics. The costs for space-flight missions with mineralogical objections. (O.k sometimes too the prices and values for meteorites, given in media or launched there by some of the protectionism advocacies. The incomes of a meteorite dealer...) And believe. NOBODY can understand why so few is done for meteorites from the official science side or why not more advantage is taken from the new finds and why not all are happy about that what has taken place during the last years. And in fact I have no influence on that. I see scientists, who agree with my and the opinion of the majority about that nonsense. I see scientists, who are happy about the new finds and prices and take advantage of it. I see scientists, who want to take advantage of these paradisiac times, but can't due to a sometimes complete cut-back of their budgets. I see scientists, who think, that someone like we are criminals. And I think the majority never got aware of this funny situation, because meteorites, meteoritics, meteorism is so extremely special, cause else the museum and labs would be full of the new finds, we wouldn't have these sick legal discussions and all in the meteorite world scientists, collectors, curators, dealers, hunters, planetologists, and even the tax-payers would be happy and would live happily ever after and unlike now and in the following years, the flow of incoming new finds revealing us more and more the secrets about our solar system would never run dry. And it even wouldn't cost a thing. But obviously we're not intelligent enough, and honestly, I'm getting tired to occupy myself with always the same mess, which nobody understands - I rather like to do our meteorites, the stones, until they will have closed down each and every country. Everything further to that topic would be recurrent and anyway we have no credibility at those persons, who have to be convinced, cause we're dealers and collectors - so anybody else is better capable to show the trivial and evident facts than me. And I'm tired to play the squaller. Our job is, like the other hunters and dealers too, to continue to deliver the rarest of the rare, the types, which the "official" side doesn't find or hardly finds and to deliver them at so low costs which they never can met or to make it possible for them at all due to the low costs to get them in their institutes, which they never could afford else and to deliver them to those, who appreciate our work. So please maybe others instead of me could be the Cassandra or Pandora or whatever for legendary grouches existed. I mean, it's in our all own interest. Or at least in the interest of all these who LOVE meteorites or who do that great research on meteorites. Because if they don't care, nobody will care And we have to be aware, that the World will turn around also without meteorites. ...man, I even have not a minute time to learn a better English... Gosh perhaps we should buy 1001 IMCA-Teddy-Bears and whenever we meet one of the old protectionists, we could bombard him with that stuff and scream: We love meteorites, we love you, we want to help you, we want to bring you so much meteorites more, which you never would get else and which you never would get funded.... Stamp collecting is also fine, but we learn so few from them about the universe. So. And now I have to apply for a job as cook on the Suisse-Omani expeditions. - I have to look ahead for the post-desert time. So I will be able to see at least a few weathered OCs on my working place to have a certain continuity. Cheers, Martin Disclaimer: These and all postings are solely my opinion. -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Galactic Stone & Ironworks Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 16:41 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensivemeteorite"collectable" Hi Martin and List, Well analyzed Martin. Reading your posts on these matters is like receiving an education. Now if we could just get the governments in question to read this list and consider what Martin has written extensively on, then we might see a return to reason. It is in nobody's best interest to restrict the search for, discovery of, and trade of meteorites. Best regards and clear skies, MikeG On 7/7/09, Martin Altmann wrote: > No, > > it shows only how exotic these laws are. > > I'm sure the "Australian Government" doesn't intentionally want to keep the > Australian meteorites in Australia, > I'm rather convinced that quite nobody in the Australian government is aware > of that law at all, > because normal people don't know about meteorites or care about at all. > > And you have to keep in mind, how such laws happen. > The most probable scenario is, > that there are a handful of curators or meteorite scientists, who express > their wishes, that the national meteorites should be theirs or that they > should end in their hands or what ever their motivation might be. > No matter how thought-out their ideas are, > and they are sitting in a committee or elsewhere > they give the recommendation to the legislature, that meteorites do have to > be protected. > > Legislature means: politicians and civil servants. > Of course these people can't have any idea what a meteorite is, how they are > found, how many do exist, what for a scientific or economical value they > have or don't have and how they were exchanged between finders, museums, > dealers, collectors in past. > At best they have heard of artefacts, dinosaurs, resources - and know, that > these other - in their eyes similar - objects, have to be protected and are > of great importance - > and anyway the proposal to protect meteorites comes from scientists, hence > people, who are supposed to know about what they are talking, > therefore they will always wave that petition through > and will add the word "meteorites" into the relevant already existent laws. > > You see it in the Aussie-Natural-Heritage lists, > there they simply added "meteorites", > it would have been logic to add the Australian tektites too - they are much > more valuable than that Henbury, Mundrabilla, Boxhole, Camel Donga, > Millbillillie stuff and much more rare, but you don't find them there. > There you can see how arbitrary that all is. > > Or think to Poland - in the last 70 years they had 4 (four) meteorites there > - so I really doubt, that any politician would have seen an urgent need for > action to create a law for meteorites > - but they did, so bizarre or droll this may sound to you. > Most probably because a panjandrum put a bug in a clerk's or politician's > ear. Or because one from the latter felt for the usual rubbish in the > newspapers, that meteorites would have a value of millions of dollars per > stone and are trafficked and dealt by shady persons by thousands of tons on > ominous black markets. So that they get alerted, to protect the thousands of > tons and quadrillions of Zloty of their Polish meteorites > (and to get a faster promotion). > > > > But! If once a word is added into a law, > then it will be horribly difficult to remove it from there again. > > Look - nobody could have said anything about that experiment to protect > meteorites in Australia. > Now we can judge the results, because enough time has elapsed to see, what > the impact of this laws were. > > Well and there everybody can see, that the law had a converse effect than > initially intended: Much, much less meteorites are recovered and almost no > Australian meteorites end up anymore in the Australian institutional > collections and universities. > > Wait - I will look in the Bulletin Database. > > During the last 10 years - 1999-2009 > > 2007: Bunburra Rockhole, EUC, tkw 324g - a Fall > > 2006: Eldee 001 L6, S3, W1-2 tkw 4.51kg, > Eldee 002 L6-melt breccia, W2 tkw 101g > Yaringie H6, tkw 5.75 kg > > 2003: Prospector Pool Iron, ungrouped tkw 2.77kg > > 2002: Myrtle Springs H4 tkw 53g (Hello > Don!) > > 1999: Dunbogan L6 tkw 30g a Fall > Reid 028 H6, W3 tkw 30g > > Makes up 8 (eight) meteorites. > Australia has a total of 649 meteorites. > > > And these, Ladies and Gentlemen, were the complete officially recorded new > meteorites of the decade of a whole continent, a continent full of deserts. > > For you in USA, where no such laws exist, to compare: > (I don't know, whether your deserts are of comparable size and so suitable > for meteorites like the Australian deserts) > > But USA had in the same time: > 1999-2009 officially recorded in the Bulletins: > > 282 new meteorites > > And USA has a total of 1576 meteorites. > > GIST OF THAT POSTING: > > > > > ---> during the last 10 years 18% of all known US-meteorites were found > > ---> during the last 10 years 1% of all known Aussie-meteorites were found > > > > > > > > > I use the percentage to exclude factors like population density, properties > of the surface and size of overall surface.... > > So we see, there has to be done something. > > We here on the list are often only lousy laymen, even most of us not > citizens of Australia, we have no influence on Australian legislation. > > But scientists pled for the laws, which led to the leakage of new Australian > meteorites, so maybe scientists could pled for an amendment to these laws, > for them finally getting meteorites to work with again. > > Therefore we all could ask Alex Bevan, Bill Birch, the McColls, Ross > Pogson...all the Australian meteoricists - not to forget Caroline Smith, > cause just yesterday here an article about London was shown, with the link > to the blog where she went hunting in Australia, one of the few persons, who > were looking for meteorites down-under at all, so she knows the situation > too, > and of course the Meteoritical Society, > that they all perhaps will write at the end a memorandum to improve the sad > situation in Australia and to find better laws. > But also the other scientists should help their colleagues from down-under. > > > Huh, once I was told by a list member, a German who had emigrated to > Australia, that he would need even an export permit for his German > meteorites from his collection, if he wants to bring them out of Australia. > That's a perfect integration, I'd say, if the belongings of an immigrant get > immediately National Heritage of Australia. But also somewhat weird. > > Uh imagine, if someone sends a suspected stone to Bevan to Australia and it > will turn out and classified to be a meteorite. Then he has to apply for an > export permit to get the stone back? > > Australia has so fine meteorites and had once such a meteorite tradition, > the superb Wolf-Creek-Crater - well worth to have a meteorite or mineral > fair there. But nobody from other countries will come with meteorites, cause > the paper-warfare would be a mess. > > A not so theoretical question: > > The meteorite sellers in most cases have a return policy, which allows the > buyers to send the specimens back, if they aren't fully satisfied. > What one has to do, if that happens with an Australian collector? > > That all is so strange. > > But I think, it could be of importance, that Australia where the situation > became so evident, that the laws disrupted almost fully new finds and > meteorite research > and where the scientists are very disappointed about the situation, > would come to a more reasonable solution, > because it could be a signal for other desert countries and maybe also for > the few not yet so informed proponents and Luddites, who want to have > similar laws there, to avoid such a disaster like had happened in Australia. > > Well happy finding, > And greetings to Blinky Bill! > Martin > > > > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Galactic Stone & Ironworks [mailto:meteoritemike at gmail.com] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 13:45 > An: Martin Altmann > Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive > meteorite"collectable" > > Hi Martin and List, > > Does anyone else find it ironic that the Aussies will put an > Argentinian meteorite on their Australian coin? The Aussie government > doesn't want it's own meteorites leaving it's borders in the hands of > non-Aussie citizens, so they will take another nation's meteorites and > use those instead. Talk about hypocritical. Talk about playing games > with permits and laws. They should stick to Fosters beer. > > Best regards, > > MikeG > > > > > > On 7/6/09, Martin Altmann wrote: >> A medallion with Blinky Bill for you to engrave! >> >> ...aah, you mean the Campo coin? >> >> To complicate to order for me and you, >> because we would have to apply for an export permit first. >> >> (I hope the Royal Australian Mint knows about that problem). >> >> A lawyer could make fun in ordering such a coin and if he doesn't find any >> export permit icluded, >> he could incriminate the Australian Government/Royal Mint for illicit > export >> of National Heritage... >> >> ....so stupid are these Aussie-laws. >> >> >> >> >> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com >> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Darren >> Garrison >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 06:29 >> An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Betreff: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive >> meteorite"collectable" >> >> Australian issued meteorite "coin": >> >> (mid list) >> >> > http://www.prospectstampsandcoins.com.au/web/royal_aust_mint/2009_coins/inde >> x.html >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > > -- > ......................................................... > Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) > Member of the Meteoritical Society. > Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. > Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com > .......................................................... > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From cdtucson at cox.net Tue Jul 7 12:40:26 2009 From: cdtucson at cox.net (cdtucson at cox.net) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 12:40:26 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensivemeteorite"collectable" In-Reply-To: <002d01c9ff1f$76c48730$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: <20090707124026.84REG.213333.imail@fed1rmwml41> Martin, Forget about the job as a cook. Like Steve said, you need to publish your writing. Fantastic. -- Carl or Debbie Esparza IMCA 5829 Meteoritemax ---- Martin Altmann wrote: > Ah Mike and Steve, > > it's not a big thing. Each child can do these tiny stats, > and each professional meteoriticist, would need to come to these simple > conclusions, because he knows where to find the Bulletin Database on web, > not more than 5 to 10 minutes. > > And that's why I'm often so impatient. > Because the data are so clear and the opposite of a secret. > And sometimes so shocked (e.g. when I had read that the former president of > MetSoc.....ooops, - and so often not diplomatical, therefore shhhhhht). > > But in general, > cause I'm sometimes asked by people, who found on web an article about > meteorites, > or often also by friends, who have nothing to do at all with meteorites, > some of them scientists in other fields, but also "ordinary" people like you > and me, > > and with them, if you only present the numbers and figures > (which everybody could find out more or less easily in web), > > Then they are more than astonished about what's going on in the meteorite > world. > Because nobody can understand, what unfortunately is going on in meteorite > science and politics regarding the very meteorites. Cause it's highly > inefficient and illogical. > > With figures and numbers I mean: > > The find rates: > > In Antarctica, > In desert countries. > In countries with protectionist laws before and after > In countries without protectionist laws. > Of "private" parties > Of "official" expeditions. > The find rates before the desert rush. > The find rates during the desert rush. > The weights of the finds from everywhere > The weights of the "interesting" types among these. > > The monetary aspects: > > The costs of the Antarctic campaigns. > The costs of the "official" expeditions. > The costs of meteorites on "the market" > The volume of traded meteorites in total. > The costs of meteorites in history. > The costs of meteorites today. > The budget of universities and museum to acquire meteorites today > The budget of universities and museum to acquire meteorites spent yesterday. > The budgets of universities for acquisitions in other departments. > The costs for branches of science dealing with similar questions like > meteoritics. > The costs for space-flight missions with mineralogical objections. > > (O.k sometimes too the prices and values for meteorites, given in media or > launched there by some of the protectionism advocacies. The incomes of a > meteorite dealer...) > > > And believe. NOBODY can understand why so few is done for meteorites from > the official science side or why not more advantage is taken from the new > finds > and why not all are happy about that what has taken place during the last > years. > > > And in fact I have no influence on that. > I see scientists, who agree with my and the opinion of the majority about > that nonsense. > I see scientists, who are happy about the new finds and prices and take > advantage of it. > I see scientists, who want to take advantage of these paradisiac times, > but can't due to a sometimes complete cut-back of their budgets. > I see scientists, who think, that someone like we are criminals. > > And I think the majority never got aware of this funny situation, > because meteorites, meteoritics, meteorism is so extremely special, > cause else the museum and labs would be full of the new finds, > we wouldn't have these sick legal discussions > and all in the meteorite world scientists, collectors, curators, dealers, > hunters, planetologists, and even the tax-payers would be happy and would > live happily ever after > and unlike now and in the following years, the flow of incoming new finds > revealing us more and more the secrets about our solar system > would never run dry. > > And it even wouldn't cost a thing. > But obviously we're not intelligent enough, > > and honestly, I'm getting tired to occupy myself with always the same mess, > which nobody understands - I rather like to do our meteorites, the stones, > until they will have closed down each and every country. > > Everything further to that topic would be recurrent and anyway we have no > credibility at those persons, who have to be convinced, cause we're dealers > and collectors - so anybody else is better capable to show the trivial and > evident facts than me. > > And I'm tired to play the squaller. > Our job is, like the other hunters and dealers too, to continue to deliver > the rarest of the rare, the types, which the "official" side doesn't find or > hardly finds and to deliver them at so low costs which they never can met or > to make it possible for them at all due to the low costs to get them in > their institutes, which they never could afford else and to deliver them to > those, who appreciate our work. > > So please maybe others instead of me could be the Cassandra or Pandora or > whatever for legendary grouches existed. > > I mean, it's in our all own interest. > Or at least in the interest of all these who LOVE meteorites > or who do that great research on meteorites. > > Because if they don't care, nobody will care > And we have to be aware, that the World will turn around also without > meteorites. > > > ...man, I even have not a minute time to learn a better English... > > Gosh perhaps we should buy 1001 IMCA-Teddy-Bears and whenever we meet one of > the old protectionists, we could bombard him with that stuff and scream: We > love meteorites, we love you, we want to help you, we want to bring you so > much meteorites more, which you never would get else and which you never > would get funded.... > > Stamp collecting is also fine, > but we learn so few from them about the universe. > > So. And now I have to apply for a job as cook on the Suisse-Omani > expeditions. - I have to look ahead for the post-desert time. > So I will be able to see at least a few weathered OCs on my working place to > have a certain continuity. > > Cheers, > Martin > > Disclaimer: These and all postings are solely my opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Galactic > Stone & Ironworks > Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 16:41 > An: Martin Altmann > Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky > expensivemeteorite"collectable" > > Hi Martin and List, > > Well analyzed Martin. Reading your posts on these matters is like > receiving an education. Now if we could just get the governments in > question to read this list and consider what Martin has written > extensively on, then we might see a return to reason. > > It is in nobody's best interest to restrict the search for, discovery > of, and trade of meteorites. > > Best regards and clear skies, > > MikeG > > > > On 7/7/09, Martin Altmann wrote: > > No, > > > > it shows only how exotic these laws are. > > > > I'm sure the "Australian Government" doesn't intentionally want to keep > the > > Australian meteorites in Australia, > > I'm rather convinced that quite nobody in the Australian government is > aware > > of that law at all, > > because normal people don't know about meteorites or care about at all. > > > > And you have to keep in mind, how such laws happen. > > The most probable scenario is, > > that there are a handful of curators or meteorite scientists, who express > > their wishes, that the national meteorites should be theirs or that they > > should end in their hands or what ever their motivation might be. > > No matter how thought-out their ideas are, > > and they are sitting in a committee or elsewhere > > they give the recommendation to the legislature, that meteorites do have > to > > be protected. > > > > Legislature means: politicians and civil servants. > > Of course these people can't have any idea what a meteorite is, how they > are > > found, how many do exist, what for a scientific or economical value they > > have or don't have and how they were exchanged between finders, museums, > > dealers, collectors in past. > > At best they have heard of artefacts, dinosaurs, resources - and know, > that > > these other - in their eyes similar - objects, have to be protected and > are > > of great importance - > > and anyway the proposal to protect meteorites comes from scientists, hence > > people, who are supposed to know about what they are talking, > > therefore they will always wave that petition through > > and will add the word "meteorites" into the relevant already existent > laws. > > > > You see it in the Aussie-Natural-Heritage lists, > > there they simply added "meteorites", > > it would have been logic to add the Australian tektites too - they are > much > > more valuable than that Henbury, Mundrabilla, Boxhole, Camel Donga, > > Millbillillie stuff and much more rare, but you don't find them there. > > There you can see how arbitrary that all is. > > > > Or think to Poland - in the last 70 years they had 4 (four) meteorites > there > > - so I really doubt, that any politician would have seen an urgent need > for > > action to create a law for meteorites > > - but they did, so bizarre or droll this may sound to you. > > Most probably because a panjandrum put a bug in a clerk's or politician's > > ear. Or because one from the latter felt for the usual rubbish in the > > newspapers, that meteorites would have a value of millions of dollars per > > stone and are trafficked and dealt by shady persons by thousands of tons > on > > ominous black markets. So that they get alerted, to protect the thousands > of > > tons and quadrillions of Zloty of their Polish meteorites > > (and to get a faster promotion). > > > > > > > > But! If once a word is added into a law, > > then it will be horribly difficult to remove it from there again. > > > > Look - nobody could have said anything about that experiment to protect > > meteorites in Australia. > > Now we can judge the results, because enough time has elapsed to see, what > > the impact of this laws were. > > > > Well and there everybody can see, that the law had a converse effect than > > initially intended: Much, much less meteorites are recovered and almost > no > > Australian meteorites end up anymore in the Australian institutional > > collections and universities. > > > > Wait - I will look in the Bulletin Database. > > > > During the last 10 years - 1999-2009 > > > > 2007: Bunburra Rockhole, EUC, tkw 324g - a Fall > > > > 2006: Eldee 001 L6, S3, W1-2 tkw 4.51kg, > > Eldee 002 L6-melt breccia, W2 tkw 101g > > Yaringie H6, tkw 5.75 kg > > > > 2003: Prospector Pool Iron, ungrouped tkw 2.77kg > > > > 2002: Myrtle Springs H4 tkw 53g (Hello > > Don!) > > > > 1999: Dunbogan L6 tkw 30g a Fall > > Reid 028 H6, W3 tkw 30g > > > > Makes up 8 (eight) meteorites. > > Australia has a total of 649 meteorites. > > > > > > And these, Ladies and Gentlemen, were the complete officially recorded new > > meteorites of the decade of a whole continent, a continent full of > deserts. > > > > For you in USA, where no such laws exist, to compare: > > (I don't know, whether your deserts are of comparable size and so suitable > > for meteorites like the Australian deserts) > > > > But USA had in the same time: > > 1999-2009 officially recorded in the Bulletins: > > > > 282 new meteorites > > > > And USA has a total of 1576 meteorites. > > > > GIST OF THAT POSTING: > > > > > > > > > > ---> during the last 10 years 18% of all known US-meteorites were found > > > > ---> during the last 10 years 1% of all known Aussie-meteorites were > found > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I use the percentage to exclude factors like population density, > properties > > of the surface and size of overall surface.... > > > > So we see, there has to be done something. > > > > We here on the list are often only lousy laymen, even most of us not > > citizens of Australia, we have no influence on Australian legislation. > > > > But scientists pled for the laws, which led to the leakage of new > Australian > > meteorites, so maybe scientists could pled for an amendment to these laws, > > for them finally getting meteorites to work with again. > > > > Therefore we all could ask Alex Bevan, Bill Birch, the McColls, Ross > > Pogson...all the Australian meteoricists - not to forget Caroline Smith, > > cause just yesterday here an article about London was shown, with the link > > to the blog where she went hunting in Australia, one of the few persons, > who > > were looking for meteorites down-under at all, so she knows the situation > > too, > > and of course the Meteoritical Society, > > that they all perhaps will write at the end a memorandum to improve the > sad > > situation in Australia and to find better laws. > > But also the other scientists should help their colleagues from > down-under. > > > > > > Huh, once I was told by a list member, a German who had emigrated to > > Australia, that he would need even an export permit for his German > > meteorites from his collection, if he wants to bring them out of > Australia. > > That's a perfect integration, I'd say, if the belongings of an immigrant > get > > immediately National Heritage of Australia. But also somewhat weird. > > > > Uh imagine, if someone sends a suspected stone to Bevan to Australia and > it > > will turn out and classified to be a meteorite. Then he has to apply for > an > > export permit to get the stone back? > > > > Australia has so fine meteorites and had once such a meteorite tradition, > > the superb Wolf-Creek-Crater - well worth to have a meteorite or mineral > > fair there. But nobody from other countries will come with meteorites, > cause > > the paper-warfare would be a mess. > > > > A not so theoretical question: > > > > The meteorite sellers in most cases have a return policy, which allows the > > buyers to send the specimens back, if they aren't fully satisfied. > > What one has to do, if that happens with an Australian collector? > > > > That all is so strange. > > > > But I think, it could be of importance, that Australia where the situation > > became so evident, that the laws disrupted almost fully new finds and > > meteorite research > > and where the scientists are very disappointed about the situation, > > would come to a more reasonable solution, > > because it could be a signal for other desert countries and maybe also for > > the few not yet so informed proponents and Luddites, who want to have > > similar laws there, to avoid such a disaster like had happened in > Australia. > > > > Well happy finding, > > And greetings to Blinky Bill! > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > > Von: Galactic Stone & Ironworks [mailto:meteoritemike at gmail.com] > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 13:45 > > An: Martin Altmann > > Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive > > meteorite"collectable" > > > > Hi Martin and List, > > > > Does anyone else find it ironic that the Aussies will put an > > Argentinian meteorite on their Australian coin? The Aussie government > > doesn't want it's own meteorites leaving it's borders in the hands of > > non-Aussie citizens, so they will take another nation's meteorites and > > use those instead. Talk about hypocritical. Talk about playing games > > with permits and laws. They should stick to Fosters beer. > > > > Best regards, > > > > MikeG > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/6/09, Martin Altmann wrote: > >> A medallion with Blinky Bill for you to engrave! > >> > >> ...aah, you mean the Campo coin? > >> > >> To complicate to order for me and you, > >> because we would have to apply for an export permit first. > >> > >> (I hope the Royal Australian Mint knows about that problem). > >> > >> A lawyer could make fun in ordering such a coin and if he doesn't find > any > >> export permit icluded, > >> he could incriminate the Australian Government/Royal Mint for illicit > > export > >> of National Heritage... > >> > >> ....so stupid are these Aussie-laws. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > >> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > >> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von > Darren > >> Garrison > >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 06:29 > >> An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> Betreff: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive > >> meteorite"collectable" > >> > >> Australian issued meteorite "coin": > >> > >> (mid list) > >> > >> > > > http://www.prospectstampsandcoins.com.au/web/royal_aust_mint/2009_coins/inde > >> x.html > >> ______________________________________________ > >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> > >> ______________________________________________ > >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> > > > > > > -- > > ......................................................... > > Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) > > Member of the Meteoritical Society. > > Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. > > Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com > > .......................................................... > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > -- > ......................................................... > Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) > Member of the Meteoritical Society. > Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. > Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com > .......................................................... > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From meteoritemike at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 12:58:29 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 12:58:29 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Martin's Wisdom - Was "Yet another gimmicky expensive meteorite collectable" Message-ID: Martin said - "Gosh perhaps we should buy 1001 IMCA-Teddy-Bears and whenever we meet one of the old protectionists, we could bombard him with that stuff and scream: We love meteorites, we love you, we want to help you, we want to bring you so much meteorites more, which you never would get else and which you never would get funded...." So true. So funny. I just blew coffee out of my nose. LOL -------------------------------------- I hereby resolve, in full view of the List, to go back through the archives and save all of Martin's best postings about this issue - and with his blessing (if I can get it), I'd like to piece them all together into some kind of collection on the subject. Perhaps a webpage with a "best of" list of quotations and statistics. Martin has written extensively and frequently on this and he must be exhausted from it. Even a man of manic typing speed can see the time involved in writing his postings - not even accounting that he is doing it (masterfully) in a second language. It is a shame to leave them buried in the archives where only the converted can see. As he said, this information is not secret - it is out there for anyone to find. The problem is, the people who NEED to read it are not going to look for it because it's buried in the Met Bulletin Database and in works of limited availability like the Catalogue of Meteorites. Even Burke's Cosmic Debris should be required reading for those who seek to legislate meteorites - it illustrates well the power struggles behind the scenes regarding the legitimacy of meteorites - lessons which would apply well to the issue at hand. Best regards, MikeG On 7/7/09, Martin Altmann wrote: > Ah Mike and Steve, > > it's not a big thing. Each child can do these tiny stats, > and each professional meteoriticist, would need to come to these simple > conclusions, because he knows where to find the Bulletin Database on web, > not more than 5 to 10 minutes. > > And that's why I'm often so impatient. > Because the data are so clear and the opposite of a secret. > And sometimes so shocked (e.g. when I had read that the former president of > MetSoc.....ooops, - and so often not diplomatical, therefore shhhhhht). > > But in general, > cause I'm sometimes asked by people, who found on web an article about > meteorites, > or often also by friends, who have nothing to do at all with meteorites, > some of them scientists in other fields, but also "ordinary" people like you > and me, > > and with them, if you only present the numbers and figures > (which everybody could find out more or less easily in web), > > Then they are more than astonished about what's going on in the meteorite > world. > Because nobody can understand, what unfortunately is going on in meteorite > science and politics regarding the very meteorites. Cause it's highly > inefficient and illogical. > > With figures and numbers I mean: > > The find rates: > > In Antarctica, > In desert countries. > In countries with protectionist laws before and after > In countries without protectionist laws. > Of "private" parties > Of "official" expeditions. > The find rates before the desert rush. > The find rates during the desert rush. > The weights of the finds from everywhere > The weights of the "interesting" types among these. > > The monetary aspects: > > The costs of the Antarctic campaigns. > The costs of the "official" expeditions. > The costs of meteorites on "the market" > The volume of traded meteorites in total. > The costs of meteorites in history. > The costs of meteorites today. > The budget of universities and museum to acquire meteorites today > The budget of universities and museum to acquire meteorites spent yesterday. > The budgets of universities for acquisitions in other departments. > The costs for branches of science dealing with similar questions like > meteoritics. > The costs for space-flight missions with mineralogical objections. > > (O.k sometimes too the prices and values for meteorites, given in media or > launched there by some of the protectionism advocacies. The incomes of a > meteorite dealer...) > > > And believe. NOBODY can understand why so few is done for meteorites from > the official science side or why not more advantage is taken from the new > finds > and why not all are happy about that what has taken place during the last > years. > > > And in fact I have no influence on that. > I see scientists, who agree with my and the opinion of the majority about > that nonsense. > I see scientists, who are happy about the new finds and prices and take > advantage of it. > I see scientists, who want to take advantage of these paradisiac times, > but can't due to a sometimes complete cut-back of their budgets. > I see scientists, who think, that someone like we are criminals. > > And I think the majority never got aware of this funny situation, > because meteorites, meteoritics, meteorism is so extremely special, > cause else the museum and labs would be full of the new finds, > we wouldn't have these sick legal discussions > and all in the meteorite world scientists, collectors, curators, dealers, > hunters, planetologists, and even the tax-payers would be happy and would > live happily ever after > and unlike now and in the following years, the flow of incoming new finds > revealing us more and more the secrets about our solar system > would never run dry. > > And it even wouldn't cost a thing. > But obviously we're not intelligent enough, > > and honestly, I'm getting tired to occupy myself with always the same mess, > which nobody understands - I rather like to do our meteorites, the stones, > until they will have closed down each and every country. > > Everything further to that topic would be recurrent and anyway we have no > credibility at those persons, who have to be convinced, cause we're dealers > and collectors - so anybody else is better capable to show the trivial and > evident facts than me. > > And I'm tired to play the squaller. > Our job is, like the other hunters and dealers too, to continue to deliver > the rarest of the rare, the types, which the "official" side doesn't find or > hardly finds and to deliver them at so low costs which they never can met or > to make it possible for them at all due to the low costs to get them in > their institutes, which they never could afford else and to deliver them to > those, who appreciate our work. > > So please maybe others instead of me could be the Cassandra or Pandora or > whatever for legendary grouches existed. > > I mean, it's in our all own interest. > Or at least in the interest of all these who LOVE meteorites > or who do that great research on meteorites. > > Because if they don't care, nobody will care > And we have to be aware, that the World will turn around also without > meteorites. > > > ...man, I even have not a minute time to learn a better English... > > Gosh perhaps we should buy 1001 IMCA-Teddy-Bears and whenever we meet one of > the old protectionists, we could bombard him with that stuff and scream: We > love meteorites, we love you, we want to help you, we want to bring you so > much meteorites more, which you never would get else and which you never > would get funded.... > > Stamp collecting is also fine, > but we learn so few from them about the universe. > > So. And now I have to apply for a job as cook on the Suisse-Omani > expeditions. - I have to look ahead for the post-desert time. > So I will be able to see at least a few weathered OCs on my working place to > have a certain continuity. > > Cheers, > Martin > > Disclaimer: These and all postings are solely my opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Galactic > Stone & Ironworks > Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 16:41 > An: Martin Altmann > Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky > expensivemeteorite"collectable" > > Hi Martin and List, > > Well analyzed Martin. Reading your posts on these matters is like > receiving an education. Now if we could just get the governments in > question to read this list and consider what Martin has written > extensively on, then we might see a return to reason. > > It is in nobody's best interest to restrict the search for, discovery > of, and trade of meteorites. > > Best regards and clear skies, > > MikeG > > > > On 7/7/09, Martin Altmann wrote: >> No, >> >> it shows only how exotic these laws are. >> >> I'm sure the "Australian Government" doesn't intentionally want to keep > the >> Australian meteorites in Australia, >> I'm rather convinced that quite nobody in the Australian government is > aware >> of that law at all, >> because normal people don't know about meteorites or care about at all. >> >> And you have to keep in mind, how such laws happen. >> The most probable scenario is, >> that there are a handful of curators or meteorite scientists, who express >> their wishes, that the national meteorites should be theirs or that they >> should end in their hands or what ever their motivation might be. >> No matter how thought-out their ideas are, >> and they are sitting in a committee or elsewhere >> they give the recommendation to the legislature, that meteorites do have > to >> be protected. >> >> Legislature means: politicians and civil servants. >> Of course these people can't have any idea what a meteorite is, how they > are >> found, how many do exist, what for a scientific or economical value they >> have or don't have and how they were exchanged between finders, museums, >> dealers, collectors in past. >> At best they have heard of artefacts, dinosaurs, resources - and know, > that >> these other - in their eyes similar - objects, have to be protected and > are >> of great importance - >> and anyway the proposal to protect meteorites comes from scientists, hence >> people, who are supposed to know about what they are talking, >> therefore they will always wave that petition through >> and will add the word "meteorites" into the relevant already existent > laws. >> >> You see it in the Aussie-Natural-Heritage lists, >> there they simply added "meteorites", >> it would have been logic to add the Australian tektites too - they are > much >> more valuable than that Henbury, Mundrabilla, Boxhole, Camel Donga, >> Millbillillie stuff and much more rare, but you don't find them there. >> There you can see how arbitrary that all is. >> >> Or think to Poland - in the last 70 years they had 4 (four) meteorites > there >> - so I really doubt, that any politician would have seen an urgent need > for >> action to create a law for meteorites >> - but they did, so bizarre or droll this may sound to you. >> Most probably because a panjandrum put a bug in a clerk's or politician's >> ear. Or because one from the latter felt for the usual rubbish in the >> newspapers, that meteorites would have a value of millions of dollars per >> stone and are trafficked and dealt by shady persons by thousands of tons > on >> ominous black markets. So that they get alerted, to protect the thousands > of >> tons and quadrillions of Zloty of their Polish meteorites >> (and to get a faster promotion). >> >> >> >> But! If once a word is added into a law, >> then it will be horribly difficult to remove it from there again. >> >> Look - nobody could have said anything about that experiment to protect >> meteorites in Australia. >> Now we can judge the results, because enough time has elapsed to see, what >> the impact of this laws were. >> >> Well and there everybody can see, that the law had a converse effect than >> initially intended: Much, much less meteorites are recovered and almost > no >> Australian meteorites end up anymore in the Australian institutional >> collections and universities. >> >> Wait - I will look in the Bulletin Database. >> >> During the last 10 years - 1999-2009 >> >> 2007: Bunburra Rockhole, EUC, tkw 324g - a Fall >> >> 2006: Eldee 001 L6, S3, W1-2 tkw 4.51kg, >> Eldee 002 L6-melt breccia, W2 tkw 101g >> Yaringie H6, tkw 5.75 kg >> >> 2003: Prospector Pool Iron, ungrouped tkw 2.77kg >> >> 2002: Myrtle Springs H4 tkw 53g (Hello >> Don!) >> >> 1999: Dunbogan L6 tkw 30g a Fall >> Reid 028 H6, W3 tkw 30g >> >> Makes up 8 (eight) meteorites. >> Australia has a total of 649 meteorites. >> >> >> And these, Ladies and Gentlemen, were the complete officially recorded new >> meteorites of the decade of a whole continent, a continent full of > deserts. >> >> For you in USA, where no such laws exist, to compare: >> (I don't know, whether your deserts are of comparable size and so suitable >> for meteorites like the Australian deserts) >> >> But USA had in the same time: >> 1999-2009 officially recorded in the Bulletins: >> >> 282 new meteorites >> >> And USA has a total of 1576 meteorites. >> >> GIST OF THAT POSTING: >> >> >> >> >> ---> during the last 10 years 18% of all known US-meteorites were found >> >> ---> during the last 10 years 1% of all known Aussie-meteorites were > found >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I use the percentage to exclude factors like population density, > properties >> of the surface and size of overall surface.... >> >> So we see, there has to be done something. >> >> We here on the list are often only lousy laymen, even most of us not >> citizens of Australia, we have no influence on Australian legislation. >> >> But scientists pled for the laws, which led to the leakage of new > Australian >> meteorites, so maybe scientists could pled for an amendment to these laws, >> for them finally getting meteorites to work with again. >> >> Therefore we all could ask Alex Bevan, Bill Birch, the McColls, Ross >> Pogson...all the Australian meteoricists - not to forget Caroline Smith, >> cause just yesterday here an article about London was shown, with the link >> to the blog where she went hunting in Australia, one of the few persons, > who >> were looking for meteorites down-under at all, so she knows the situation >> too, >> and of course the Meteoritical Society, >> that they all perhaps will write at the end a memorandum to improve the > sad >> situation in Australia and to find better laws. >> But also the other scientists should help their colleagues from > down-under. >> >> >> Huh, once I was told by a list member, a German who had emigrated to >> Australia, that he would need even an export permit for his German >> meteorites from his collection, if he wants to bring them out of > Australia. >> That's a perfect integration, I'd say, if the belongings of an immigrant > get >> immediately National Heritage of Australia. But also somewhat weird. >> >> Uh imagine, if someone sends a suspected stone to Bevan to Australia and > it >> will turn out and classified to be a meteorite. Then he has to apply for > an >> export permit to get the stone back? >> >> Australia has so fine meteorites and had once such a meteorite tradition, >> the superb Wolf-Creek-Crater - well worth to have a meteorite or mineral >> fair there. But nobody from other countries will come with meteorites, > cause >> the paper-warfare would be a mess. >> >> A not so theoretical question: >> >> The meteorite sellers in most cases have a return policy, which allows the >> buyers to send the specimens back, if they aren't fully satisfied. >> What one has to do, if that happens with an Australian collector? >> >> That all is so strange. >> >> But I think, it could be of importance, that Australia where the situation >> became so evident, that the laws disrupted almost fully new finds and >> meteorite research >> and where the scientists are very disappointed about the situation, >> would come to a more reasonable solution, >> because it could be a signal for other desert countries and maybe also for >> the few not yet so informed proponents and Luddites, who want to have >> similar laws there, to avoid such a disaster like had happened in > Australia. >> >> Well happy finding, >> And greetings to Blinky Bill! >> Martin >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: Galactic Stone & Ironworks [mailto:meteoritemike at gmail.com] >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 13:45 >> An: Martin Altmann >> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive >> meteorite"collectable" >> >> Hi Martin and List, >> >> Does anyone else find it ironic that the Aussies will put an >> Argentinian meteorite on their Australian coin? The Aussie government >> doesn't want it's own meteorites leaving it's borders in the hands of >> non-Aussie citizens, so they will take another nation's meteorites and >> use those instead. Talk about hypocritical. Talk about playing games >> with permits and laws. They should stick to Fosters beer. >> >> Best regards, >> >> MikeG >> >> >> >> >> >> On 7/6/09, Martin Altmann wrote: >>> A medallion with Blinky Bill for you to engrave! >>> >>> ...aah, you mean the Campo coin? >>> >>> To complicate to order for me and you, >>> because we would have to apply for an export permit first. >>> >>> (I hope the Royal Australian Mint knows about that problem). >>> >>> A lawyer could make fun in ordering such a coin and if he doesn't find > any >>> export permit icluded, >>> he could incriminate the Australian Government/Royal Mint for illicit >> export >>> of National Heritage... >>> >>> ....so stupid are these Aussie-laws. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- >>> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com >>> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von > Darren >>> Garrison >>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 06:29 >>> An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> Betreff: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive >>> meteorite"collectable" >>> >>> Australian issued meteorite "coin": >>> >>> (mid list) >>> >>> >> > http://www.prospectstampsandcoins.com.au/web/royal_aust_mint/2009_coins/inde >>> x.html >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >> >> >> -- >> ......................................................... >> Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) >> Member of the Meteoritical Society. >> Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. >> Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com >> .......................................................... >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > > -- > ......................................................... > Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) > Member of the Meteoritical Society. > Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. > Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com > .......................................................... > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From waltbranch at bellsouth.net Tue Jul 7 13:00:16 2009 From: waltbranch at bellsouth.net (Walter Branch) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:00:16 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensivemeteorite"collectable" References: <814451.44446.qm@web46405.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><00a801c9feb4$de5153d0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> <001b01c9ff0e$8e50e120$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: In book 56, article 45, subsection 31, paragraph 20, quatrain 8, line 3 Martin Wrote >Of course these people can't have any idea what a >meteorite is, how they are Nice summary, Martin. -Walter Branch (surgery again tomorrow :-( ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Altmann" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensivemeteorite"collectable" No, it shows only how exotic these laws are. I'm sure the "Australian Government" doesn't intentionally want to keep the Australian meteorites in Australia, I'm rather convinced that quite nobody in the Australian government is aware of that law at all, because normal people don't know about meteorites or care about at all. And you have to keep in mind, how such laws happen. The most probable scenario is, that there are a handful of curators or meteorite scientists, who express their wishes, that the national meteorites should be theirs or that they should end in their hands or what ever their motivation might be. No matter how thought-out their ideas are, and they are sitting in a committee or elsewhere they give the recommendation to the legislature, that meteorites do have to be protected. Legislature means: politicians and civil servants. Of course these people can't have any idea what a meteorite is, how they are found, how many do exist, what for a scientific or economical value they have or don't have and how they were exchanged between finders, museums, dealers, collectors in past. At best they have heard of artefacts, dinosaurs, resources - and know, that these other - in their eyes similar - objects, have to be protected and are of great importance - and anyway the proposal to protect meteorites comes from scientists, hence people, who are supposed to know about what they are talking, therefore they will always wave that petition through and will add the word "meteorites" into the relevant already existent laws. You see it in the Aussie-Natural-Heritage lists, there they simply added "meteorites", it would have been logic to add the Australian tektites too - they are much more valuable than that Henbury, Mundrabilla, Boxhole, Camel Donga, Millbillillie stuff and much more rare, but you don't find them there. There you can see how arbitrary that all is. Or think to Poland - in the last 70 years they had 4 (four) meteorites there - so I really doubt, that any politician would have seen an urgent need for action to create a law for meteorites - but they did, so bizarre or droll this may sound to you. Most probably because a panjandrum put a bug in a clerk's or politician's ear. Or because one from the latter felt for the usual rubbish in the newspapers, that meteorites would have a value of millions of dollars per stone and are trafficked and dealt by shady persons by thousands of tons on ominous black markets. So that they get alerted, to protect the thousands of tons and quadrillions of Zloty of their Polish meteorites (and to get a faster promotion). But! If once a word is added into a law, then it will be horribly difficult to remove it from there again. Look - nobody could have said anything about that experiment to protect meteorites in Australia. Now we can judge the results, because enough time has elapsed to see, what the impact of this laws were. Well and there everybody can see, that the law had a converse effect than initially intended: Much, much less meteorites are recovered and almost no Australian meteorites end up anymore in the Australian institutional collections and universities. Wait - I will look in the Bulletin Database. During the last 10 years - 1999-2009 2007: Bunburra Rockhole, EUC, tkw 324g - a Fall 2006: Eldee 001 L6, S3, W1-2 tkw 4.51kg, Eldee 002 L6-melt breccia, W2 tkw 101g Yaringie H6, tkw 5.75 kg 2003: Prospector Pool Iron, ungrouped tkw 2.77kg 2002: Myrtle Springs H4 tkw 53g (Hello Don!) 1999: Dunbogan L6 tkw 30g a Fall Reid 028 H6, W3 tkw 30g Makes up 8 (eight) meteorites. Australia has a total of 649 meteorites. And these, Ladies and Gentlemen, were the complete officially recorded new meteorites of the decade of a whole continent, a continent full of deserts. For you in USA, where no such laws exist, to compare: (I don't know, whether your deserts are of comparable size and so suitable for meteorites like the Australian deserts) But USA had in the same time: 1999-2009 officially recorded in the Bulletins: 282 new meteorites And USA has a total of 1576 meteorites. GIST OF THAT POSTING: ---> during the last 10 years 18% of all known US-meteorites were found ---> during the last 10 years 1% of all known Aussie-meteorites were found I use the percentage to exclude factors like population density, properties of the surface and size of overall surface.... So we see, there has to be done something. We here on the list are often only lousy laymen, even most of us not citizens of Australia, we have no influence on Australian legislation. But scientists pled for the laws, which led to the leakage of new Australian meteorites, so maybe scientists could pled for an amendment to these laws, for them finally getting meteorites to work with again. Therefore we all could ask Alex Bevan, Bill Birch, the McColls, Ross Pogson...all the Australian meteoricists - not to forget Caroline Smith, cause just yesterday here an article about London was shown, with the link to the blog where she went hunting in Australia, one of the few persons, who were looking for meteorites down-under at all, so she knows the situation too, and of course the Meteoritical Society, that they all perhaps will write at the end a memorandum to improve the sad situation in Australia and to find better laws. But also the other scientists should help their colleagues from down-under. Huh, once I was told by a list member, a German who had emigrated to Australia, that he would need even an export permit for his German meteorites from his collection, if he wants to bring them out of Australia. That's a perfect integration, I'd say, if the belongings of an immigrant get immediately National Heritage of Australia. But also somewhat weird. Uh imagine, if someone sends a suspected stone to Bevan to Australia and it will turn out and classified to be a meteorite. Then he has to apply for an export permit to get the stone back? Australia has so fine meteorites and had once such a meteorite tradition, the superb Wolf-Creek-Crater - well worth to have a meteorite or mineral fair there. But nobody from other countries will come with meteorites, cause the paper-warfare would be a mess. A not so theoretical question: The meteorite sellers in most cases have a return policy, which allows the buyers to send the specimens back, if they aren't fully satisfied. What one has to do, if that happens with an Australian collector? That all is so strange. But I think, it could be of importance, that Australia where the situation became so evident, that the laws disrupted almost fully new finds and meteorite research and where the scientists are very disappointed about the situation, would come to a more reasonable solution, because it could be a signal for other desert countries and maybe also for the few not yet so informed proponents and Luddites, who want to have similar laws there, to avoid such a disaster like had happened in Australia. Well happy finding, And greetings to Blinky Bill! Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Galactic Stone & Ironworks [mailto:meteoritemike at gmail.com] Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 13:45 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive meteorite"collectable" Hi Martin and List, Does anyone else find it ironic that the Aussies will put an Argentinian meteorite on their Australian coin? The Aussie government doesn't want it's own meteorites leaving it's borders in the hands of non-Aussie citizens, so they will take another nation's meteorites and use those instead. Talk about hypocritical. Talk about playing games with permits and laws. They should stick to Fosters beer. Best regards, MikeG On 7/6/09, Martin Altmann wrote: > A medallion with Blinky Bill for you to engrave! > > ...aah, you mean the Campo coin? > > To complicate to order for me and you, > because we would have to apply for an export permit first. > > (I hope the Royal Australian Mint knows about that problem). > > A lawyer could make fun in ordering such a coin and if he doesn't find any > export permit icluded, > he could incriminate the Australian Government/Royal Mint for illicit export > of National Heritage... > > ....so stupid are these Aussie-laws. > > > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Darren > Garrison > Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 06:29 > An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensive > meteorite"collectable" > > Australian issued meteorite "coin": > > (mid list) > > http://www.prospectstampsandcoins.com.au/web/royal_aust_mint/2009_coins/inde > x.html > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Tue Jul 7 13:25:50 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 19:25:50 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensivemeteorite"collectable" In-Reply-To: References: <814451.44446.qm@web46405.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><00a801c9feb4$de5153d0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> <001b01c9ff0e$8e50e120$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: <003801c9ff27$f9b7ceb0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Ya but that wasn't meant as criticism. It's the most common thing on Earth, that nobody knows so well, what a meteorite is. Why politicians should be there an exception from all others? (And in fact, I would be worried, if the politicians have nothing better to do as to waste their time on meteorites - ooor it must be a very happy nation without other more urgent problems) Good luck tomorrow Walter! -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Walter Branch [mailto:waltbranch at bellsouth.net] Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Juli 2009 19:00 An: Martin Altmann; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Yet another gimmicky expensivemeteorite"collectable" In book 56, article 45, subsection 31, paragraph 20, quatrain 8, line 3 Martin Wrote >Of course these people can't have any idea what a >meteorite is, how they are Nice summary, Martin. -Walter Branch (surgery again tomorrow :-( From lintonius at earthlink.net Tue Jul 7 13:57:02 2009 From: lintonius at earthlink.net (Linton Rohr) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 10:57:02 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] - AD - Canyon Diablo listings References: Message-ID: <3C06C877B88B47B89EB559412347F15F@D190TH71> Good morning listees, I have a nice variety of Canyon Diablo's listed on eBay, ending this evening. Nothing sensational...just classic, nicely shaped, CD space rocks. Ranging in size from 10-84 grams. Have a great day. Linton http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/lintonius_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZ From meteoritemike at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 14:44:21 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:44:21 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] GIVEAWAY FREEBIE! - First Responder Gets It...!! Message-ID: Hi Listees! Lately I have realized just how valuable the List has been to me - for learning, networking, and meeting friends. I have made some great friends and I have annoyed some people as well. While reading Martin's excellent posts today, I fully realized how ignorant I was (and still am) about the finer aspects of meteorites - such as the laws, factions, market forces, etc. I do not mean to single Martin out - there are many other eloquent and wise members of the list who I feel indebted to. I won't give a big preamble and start naming them all. Anyhoot, enough rambling on my part, let's get to the FREE STUFF. I want to give a little something back to the List for what it has given me. It's been a long time since I have done a giveaway, so here it is - a trivia contest with a great free prize. THE PRIZE - AN ASSORTMENT OF IMPACTITES - including specimens of Libyan Desert Glass, Darwin Glass, Steinheim Shattercone, and Indochinite tektite. THE RULES - only one rule : the first responder who answers all of the questions correctly will win the prize absolutely free - no shipping charges. This offer is open to the entire planet and outer-lying star systems near the Rim. EMAIL ALL REPLIES TO ME OFFLIST. THE QUESTIONS - Answer for me these questions three.... 1) Okechobee is one of 5 approved meteorites from Florida. Okechobee was found in 1916 under somewhat unusual circumstances - it was not your typical find. Where and how was this L4 meteorite recovered? 2) Which of these lunar meteorites has the longest measured cosmic exposure age? Dhofar 025 or Kalahari 009? 3) 1979 was a busy season for Japanese meteorite researchers in Antarctica. How many meteorites did they find that year in the Yamato Mountains area? Send your answers, offlist, to - mike at galactic-stone.com First responder wins. I will email the winner to request their mailing address for the package. Once the prize is claimed, I will post an announcement on the List - so please don't reply after that announcement is made. Thanks and good luck! MikeG -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From meteoritemike at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 15:29:10 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 15:29:10 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] GIVEAWAY FREEBIE! - First Responder Gets It...!! In-Reply-To: <4A539E2B.5060507@mor-designs.com> References: <4A539E2B.5060507@mor-designs.com> Message-ID: Hi List! Everyone can stop replying. We have a winner - Bernd Pauli! :) I received several correct responses, but Bernd was the first (by barely a minute) to respond with all 3 correct answers. He are the questions and answers : 1) Okechobee is one of 5 approved meteorites from Florida. Okechobee was found in 1916 under somewhat unusual circumstances - it was not your typical find. Where and how was this L4 meteorite recovered? As stated in the Catalogue of Meteorites - "Fragments weighing about 1kg were brought up in a net some 0.75 miles from the shore..." Apparently this meteorite was underwater and raised by fishing nets. Now, what are the chances that a fisherman was going to see this apparent ugly rock as a meteorite and think to save it? I'd love to know the full story of this recovery. I can imagine that an L4 chondrite laying on the bottom of a body of water would be heavily oxidized and covered in algae. It probably didn't look like a meteorite at all - especially to a fisherman. Why didn't he throw it back? 2) Which of these lunar meteorites has the longest measured cosmic exposure age? Dhofar 025 or Kalahari 009? Dhofar 025 by far - Kalahari 009 is one of the youngest of cosmic exposure ages. 3) 1979 was a busy season for Japanese meteorite researchers in Antarctica. How many meteorites did they find that year in the Yamato Mountains area? A close number would suffice here. The Catalogue of Meteorites states that 3690 meteorites were recovered. The Met Bulletin states a slighty different figure. I would have accepted any number 3600 or greater. Bernd nailed it - he must have a copy of the Catalogue handy. ;) My thanks to everyone who responded! Best regards and clear skies, MikeG From meteoritemike at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 16:03:48 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 16:03:48 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] PLEASE READ - If your emails weren't being replied to - MikeG email issue Message-ID: Hi Folks! Please read this. It was recently brought to my attention that my email account was bouncing back emails and I was receiving emails that never made it to my inbox - this has been going on for at least weeks, and possibly months. Briefly, here is what happened - The address "mike at galactic-stone.com" is a forwarding account. It sends all emails to my real personal address which is "meteoritemike at gmail.com". What I didn't realize was, is that my hosting account (which handles my email forwarding) was keeping copies of every email before it forwarded them. Apparently I had an inbox and a storage limit that I never knew about - so once this inbox finally filled up (with one gig of emails), it shut down. It quit forwarding emails to me and I never received any kind of notification or alert that my inbox was full or that emails were not being delivered. I have no idea how long this has been going on, but it's been happening for several weeks at least. Needless to say, I fixed the problem today and now my email should be working again - and I will now check my other phantom-inbox at least once a week. So, if you tried to email me or respond to one of my sale ads, and I never replied to you, then I never received your email. I *always* respond to every email I get from one of my friends and mailing list members - so if you don't get a reply within 24 hours, something is wrong. If you tried to reach me recently, please resend your email. I still have many specimens available from my last few email offers - because I wasn't getting the replies. Who knows how many sales I lost because of this! And I hope I didn't offend anyone or make them mad by not replying! :( Thanks for you patience and I apologize for any confusion this may have caused. Best regards and clear skies, MikeG -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From meteoritekid at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 16:04:40 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:04:40 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] - AD - Beautiful split NWA meteorite (classified, numbered) closing tonight Message-ID: <93aaac890907071304n133c588ej10117d200350ba28@mail.gmail.com> Hello All, My first-ever ebay auction closes tonight shortly before 1am - here's the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=230353073435 There's only the one auction up at the moment, but I'll have some new ones up and running sometime in the next few days - you might check my ebay page in a day or so at: http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/the_meteorite_hunter Thanks, Jason From bernd.pauli at paulinet.de Tue Jul 7 16:58:09 2009 From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de (bernd.pauli at paulinet.de) Date: 07 Jul 2009 20:58:09 UT Subject: [meteorite-list] GIVEAWAY FREEBIE! - First Responder Gets It...!! Message-ID: MikeG. kindly wrote: "Hi Bernd! You are the winner!" Hello Mike and List, How about either donating this wonderful prize to one of your local schools, or, maybe even better, having teachers of one of your local schools organize a kind of contest - difficulty depending on schoolchildren's age and grade. The winner(s) might be tomorrow's meteoriticist(s) and my reward would be to see a photo of the winner(s) with his/her/their celestial booty and a happy smile on their face(s). The contest can but doesn't necessarily have to do with meteorites. It might also be something geography-related, or rocks and/or minerals in general, it might be about nature or natural phenomena, it might be about (local) geography or history. Example: You live in Louisiana and that name is, of course, derived from Louis XIV, Le Roi Soleil, the French absolute sovereign under whose reign French and British colonial interests clashed in the "New World". Just an idea, so, folks and MikeG. what do you think? Best from Germany, Bernd From meteoritemike at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 17:29:14 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 17:29:14 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] GIVEAWAY FREEBIE! - First Responder Gets It...!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bernd and List, That is very generous of you Bernd - of course the prize is your's to dispose of as you see fit. So if you want me to donate it on your behalf, then I will certainly do so. Also, my wife and I recently moved from Louisiana to sunny Florida. My wife's older sister took over our caregiving duties and we have moved to Florida to be near my stepkids (and new grandchild) who both live in Tampa. Holding my first grandchild has given me a new positive perspective on many things. :) I have plans to donate a sizeable type collection to a local school in the near future - probably a middle school or junior high school - old enough to better appreciate the subject, but not too old that they have already chosen their college path. So I am open to donating this prize to any worthy school that you suggest - it doesn't have to be local in Florida or even the US. Also, if you end up donating the prize, I will add some meteorites and other specimens to it to make the prize more substantial and useful for outreach. Best regards and clear skies, MikeG On 07 Jul 2009 20:58:09 UT, bernd.pauli at paulinet.de wrote: > MikeG. kindly wrote: "Hi Bernd! You are the winner!" > > Hello Mike and List, > > How about either donating this wonderful prize to one of your local schools, > or, maybe even better, having teachers of one of your local schools organize > a kind of contest - difficulty depending on schoolchildren's age and grade. > > The winner(s) might be tomorrow's meteoriticist(s) and my reward would be > to see a photo of the winner(s) with his/her/their celestial booty and a > happy > smile on their face(s). > > The contest can but doesn't necessarily have to do with meteorites. It might > also be something geography-related, or rocks and/or minerals in general, it > might be about nature or natural phenomena, it might be about (local) > geography > or history. Example: You live in Louisiana and that name is, of course, > derived > from Louis XIV, Le Roi Soleil, the French absolute sovereign under whose > reign > French and British colonial interests clashed in the "New World". > > Just an idea, so, folks and MikeG. what do you think? > > Best from Germany, > > Bernd > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From mam602 at cox.net Tue Jul 7 18:23:07 2009 From: mam602 at cox.net (Mark) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 15:23:07 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: Arizona Fall "a secret" References: <477943.77866.qm@web43504.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6DF7A3FBE27E4DC3A0257C257A71DFFC@dce05032006> I know lots of people that are gold prospectors here in Arizona, they will take anyone anytime to teach them how to find gold. These same poeple guard their areas well and no amount of talking or liquer will persuade them to give up their best locations. I have found that if you show these people a willingness to work hard, walk for miles, sweat you ass off and not complain they will take you to the places they find the best gold. Greg, you are sounding a bit childish here. I do not hunt meteorites and I live in AZ. I do buy meteorites from time to time and I expect to pay for the hard work that goes into the recovery of the stones. I have been gold prospecting a couple of times and found that it was hours of back breaking work in the hot desert, digging in unforgiving ground only to find nothing. The same goes for finding meteorites, well except the digging for the most part. Gold is found WAY more easily than space rocks. I have been on this board for many years and I have always found that EVERYONE here is always willing to help, teach, instruct, and give all the info they have to anyone here who asks. PERHAPS I missed the post where you POLITELY asked to help, if so I apologize but so far all I have seen is WHINING. Perhaps if you were to offer your help and explain what you can, could or would be willing to contribute to a project, someone might step up and ask you along. Mark M. Phoenix AZ - Original Message ----- From: "Shauna Russell" To: Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 2:23 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: Arizona Fall "a secret" ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Shauna Russell To: meteoritelist at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 2:15:05 PM Subject: Arizona Fall "a secret" This is in regards to "A secret" This new fall in Arizona is not being kept secret because of money. Why can't a group of friends who enjoy meteorite hunting and find a strewn field keep it within themselves?! Lets take a look back at West, Texas. Within a day of finding material, there were so many people tromping through peoples yards it was insane! (Soon we were getting kicked off of property that we had full permission to hunt on until it became flooded with treasure hunters and meteorite enthusiasts from all over) Having said that, we don't want a repeat of West right here in our own backyard. The material will be recovered, the data in regards to the strewn field will be preserved, unlike the usual chaos that ensues at a new fall. There are a number of places that people hunt at that are not open for everyone and their brother to jump into. It's sad that some people have to try to make an issue out of something wonderful. Like trying to make our group look bad because they can't be involved. Jack found the strewn field, Jack deserves to handle this the way he chooses without being ridiculed. Anyways, Robert and myself would like to congratulate Jack on this incredible recovery!!!! Sincerely, Shauna Russell www.ironfromthesky.com ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Tue Jul 7 18:25:28 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 15:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] AD? LL5-6 Polymict breccia? FREE for study/testing use only Message-ID: <240030.89012.qm@web46401.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi to all, not sure if this would be an AD or not... As I did with the LL4 material (now NWA 5799), I have some nice cutting "scraps" to offer for places that can use them for study/testing/educational use. Please, no collectors or dealers, I would like these to go to places that can benifit from some free LL? material for study. This may well be LL5-6 Polymict Breccia, but the final results are not in yet. Some cutting has been done already and a few grams of fragments are waiting for someone to use. I have a limited amount, but as the stone was 1086g more will be available once more cutting is done - no worries, I will make this offer again if you miss out. Here is what the stone looks like: http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c165/jedisdiamond/1086g-1.jpg First come, first served - I will cover postage costs to anywhere in the world. Greg C. From carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 7 20:46:54 2009 From: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com (Carl 's) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 17:46:54 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Hi Walter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hope all goes well tomorrow. carl _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009 From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 7 21:01:34 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 18:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Google Earth Kmz file for July 6 Fireball PA available Message-ID: <976058.8157.qm@web55201.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I have exported the plots of the 16 AMS reports as well as some Non AMS reports of significance and most of the towns where a witness made a report from. It is an 8kb file that you can import into Google Earth. Should work on PC or Mac. Possibly iPhones. The purpose of this file is to consolidate reports to aid searchers in knowing the situation so they can form their own plans. I did not have time to revisit each AMS report to annotate if they heard a boom, sorry but I'd like to get this to researchers. Notation: NAMS=a report gleaned from a blog there are more but mostly repetition and don't add to the missing info. 371* is the AMS report set for this fireball-- in this case a thru t. On a colored path if there is only a single bearing mentioned it is plotted as either 371#SE or C. Reports having an arc are 371#S for START or E for END. They may be different colors. There are 3-5 reports that don't plot into the others well and I attribute those to witnesses that erred on their own ground orientation. "PA FB 6Jul2009 V01.kmz" for the initial release successive updates will have V02, 03 etc. Comments/Details are in the popup window when you click on a particular place mark. (one observer--probably ex-military, looked immediately at his computer screen and reports the time as 1:06) Most NAMS reports are included to show if there was a boom or not and weather concurrent or delayed. Note one report of possible electrophonic sound. I can mail this out to whomever wants BUT if someone(s) can host it on their site and post the list the link, I'd be beholding as I am up to my behind in deadlines. Remember you have to have the free application called Google Earth and an internet connection. Please give me feedback as to any glitches in this file. Expert advice welcome. BTW is anyone getting the weather and winds aloft data sets? Please let me know off list. Elton From damoclid at yahoo.com Tue Jul 7 21:38:53 2009 From: damoclid at yahoo.com (Richard Kowalski) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 18:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Google Earth Kmz file for July 6 Fireball PA available Message-ID: <146214.58940.qm@web33902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Elton has sent me his kmz file for Google Earth. It is available on my website at the following location: http://fullmoonphotography.net/images/Meteorites/PA_Fall_200907.htm The link to the file is at the very bottom of the page. Good Hunting all! -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA #1081 --- On Tue, 7/7/09, Mr EMan wrote: > From: Mr EMan > Subject: [meteorite-list] Google Earth Kmz file for July 6 Fireball PA available > To: "metlist" , "MetObs" > Cc: mstreman53 at yahoo.com > Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2009, 6:01 PM > > I have exported the plots of the 16 AMS reports as well as > some Non AMS reports of significance and most of the towns > where a witness made a report from. It is an 8kb file that > you can import into Google Earth. Should work on PC or Mac. > Possibly iPhones. The purpose of this file is to consolidate > reports to aid searchers in knowing the situation so they > can form their own plans.? I did not have time to > revisit each AMS report to annotate if they heard a boom, > sorry but I'd like to get this to researchers. > > Notation: > NAMS=a report gleaned from a blog? there are more but > mostly repetition and don't add to the missing info. > > 371* is the AMS report set for this fireball-- in this case > a thru t. > On a colored path if there is only a single bearing > mentioned it is plotted as either 371#SE or C. Reports > having an arc are 371#S for START or E for END. They may be > different colors. There are 3-5 reports that don't plot into > the others well and I attribute those to witnesses that > erred on their own ground orientation. "PA FB 6Jul2009 > V01.kmz" for the initial release successive updates will > have V02, 03? etc. > > Comments/Details are in the popup window when you click on > a particular place mark. (one observer--probably > ex-military, looked immediately at his computer screen and > reports the time as 1:06) Most NAMS reports are included to > show if there was a boom or not and weather concurrent or > delayed.? Note one report of possible electrophonic > sound.? > > I can mail this out to whomever wants BUT if someone(s) can > host it on their site and post the list the link, I'd be > beholding as I am up to my behind in deadlines.? > Remember you have to have the free application called Google > Earth and an internet connection. > > Please give me feedback as to any glitches in this file. > Expert advice welcome. > > BTW is anyone getting the weather and winds aloft data > sets? Please let me know off list. > > Elton > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From majesticmeteorites at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 21:34:34 2009 From: majesticmeteorites at gmail.com (Whitney Riner) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 21:34:34 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Google Earth Kmz file for July 6 Fireball PA available Message-ID: The Kmz file and info are posted here: http://drop.io/meteoritechat Get google earth here: http://earth.google.com Surveillance video of the fireball has been posted: http://www.wgal.com/news/19966650/detail.html Best wishes and a speedy recovery to Dr. Branch -Whitney From rsvp321 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 7 23:43:06 2009 From: rsvp321 at hotmail.com (Pete Pete) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 23:43:06 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] PLEASE READ - If your emails weren't being replied to - MikeG email issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One gig?! 640K ought to be enough for anybody! ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 16:03:48 -0400 > From: meteoritemike at gmail.com > To: mike at galactic-stone.com > CC: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] PLEASE READ - If your emails weren't being replied to - MikeG email issue > > Hi Folks! > > Please read this. > > It was recently brought to my attention that my email account was > bouncing back emails and I was receiving emails that never made it to > my inbox - this has been going on for at least weeks, and possibly > months. Briefly, here is what happened - > > The address "mike at galactic-stone.com" is a forwarding account. It > sends all emails to my real personal address which is > "meteoritemike at gmail.com". What I didn't realize was, is that my > hosting account (which handles my email forwarding) was keeping copies > of every email before it forwarded them. Apparently I had an inbox > and a storage limit that I never knew about - so once this inbox > finally filled up (with one gig of emails), it shut down. It quit > forwarding emails to me and I never received any kind of notification > or alert that my inbox was full or that emails were not being > delivered. I have no idea how long this has been going on, but it's > been happening for several weeks at least. > > Needless to say, I fixed the problem today and now my email should be > working again - and I will now check my other phantom-inbox at least > once a week. > > So, if you tried to email me or respond to one of my sale ads, and I > never replied to you, then I never received your email. I *always* > respond to every email I get from one of my friends and mailing list > members - so if you don't get a reply within 24 hours, something is > wrong. > > If you tried to reach me recently, please resend your email. I still > have many specimens available from my last few email offers - because > I wasn't getting the replies. Who knows how many sales I lost because > of this! And I hope I didn't offend anyone or make them mad by not > replying! :( > > Thanks for you patience and I apologize for any confusion this may have caused. > > Best regards and clear skies, > > MikeG > > > > > -- > ......................................................... > Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) > Member of the Meteoritical Society. > Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. > Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com > .......................................................... > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Attention all humans. We are your photos. Free us. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666046 From SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com Wed Jul 8 00:41:06 2009 From: SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com (SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 00:41:06 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - July 8, 2009 Message-ID: http://www.rocksfromspace.org/July_8_2009.html __________________________ **************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003) From lintonius at earthlink.net Wed Jul 8 01:53:47 2009 From: lintonius at earthlink.net (Linton Rohr) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 22:53:47 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA Message-ID: <3C4087BB3DEE44BFA1E9518B4B74B205@D190TH71> Good evening folks. I just saw a post on Astromart from Mike Hankey of Freeland, Maryland concerning this fireball. He was shooting exposures of Andromeda and inadvertently captured the meteor. He was on the evening news, with his photo. This might be helpful in determining the trajectory, given the starfield and M31 as orientation. Andromeda must have been quite low at that hour. I'm surprised he was imaging it, but I'm glad he was! I'll attach the text of his post. He can be contacted through his blog. Good luck guys! Linton ____________________________________________________________ I took a picture of a big meteor over baltimore using my 90mm refractor and DSLR camera. This picture got me on TV! http://wjz.com/seenon/meteor.2.1074217.html (video on right hand side) I want to try to figure out the trajectory of the meteor based on the picture I took, but i'm not sure how to do this or where to start. I'm tracking this story on my blog http://www.mikesastrophotos.com Any help or tips with trying to determine the trajectory are greatly appreciated. From drtanuki at yahoo.com Wed Jul 8 05:53:52 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 02:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Seismic Data search for 6JUL09 meteor Message-ID: <199684.6749.qm@web53102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear List, Anyone with time and patience to search for seismic data related to the July 6, 2009 meteor in Pennsylvania, Maryland please check: http://almaty.ldgo.columbia.edu:8080/data.request.htm#sta_map?76,175 Dirk Ross...Tokyo From P.Davidson at nms.ac.uk Wed Jul 8 07:02:08 2009 From: P.Davidson at nms.ac.uk (Peter Davidson) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 12:02:08 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Message-ID: This is my first posting on this list - please be gentle with me. I have only been on the list a matter of a week or so and I seemed to have walked into a veritable storm. I would like to share my views with you as a curator. Please forgive this rather long mail. Taking a posting from Martin Altmann dated 7th July as my starting point, here goes. I have never heard a law being described as "exotic". Do you mean idiotic? I can in no way speak on behalf of all curators, far less Australian ones. I can only give you my own viewpoint but I do know many curators from Australia, mostly mineralogists, and please believe me when I tell you they are fine people and not the narrow-minded, nationalistic people hinted at in a number of e-mails. I also noted that Martin Altmann stated that everybody on the list was a "lousy layman" which is not only patently untrue but just a little sexist. But I digress. Curators are every bit as dedicated to their collections as private collectors are. We are not faceless bureaucrats (or similar) existing in some Kafkaesque nightmare world hidebound by rules, and seeking to restrict everyone else by creating a spider's web of red tape to trap the unwary. That notion is as ridiculous to me as the presumption that all dealers (minerals or meteorites) are shady and unscrupulous. As a curator at a National Museum, I am obligated by law (yes, I know!) to preserve and protect the collections of the museum and by extension, the nation. I choose to do this. I work in the museum because I want to. Every curator I have met shares with me a love of the specimens that they curate. We also share a passionate believe that it is our duty to bring our collections to the notice and attention of the public, and to make them available to researchers and other curators. Believe me when I tell you that museum curators/conservators are not well paid. We do it for love - well mostly. When I joined the museum in 1975, I also had to undertake never to start and build up my own collection. The collections of the museum ARE my collections. I also feel that Martin overstates the influence scientist have at governmental level. Yes, some scientists are asked to advise on certain matters, but in the end it is the politician that decides. My observations of this hated group, politicians that is, leads me to surmise that if some short term political advantage can be gained by appealing to the masses, fed to satedness by a largely right-wing populist press (the tabloids in the UK), then they will always take that course of action, no matter what the consequences are. This very often goes against the advice of scientists/curators and negates many decades of good interaction between the public and private sectors. As I mineralogist, I am painfully aware that the market for display quality specimens has now passed beyond the reach of publicly-funded museums. The meteorite market is no different. Nonetheless, as a curator at a National Museum, and I hope you can understand this point of view, there is a duty to collect for the Nation everything we can in order that we can research, interpret and explain to the people of Scotland, its historical, sociological, artistic and scientific heritage. The question raised by many contributors to the list is: should meteorites fall into that category? Clearly the Australian Government thought so, and so did the UK Government in the 1960's when legislation was introduced to Parliament but never passed into law. We already do our utmost to protect other geological sites. This policy is well intentioned and it can be argued that "fixed" geological outcrops, either mineralogical or palaeontological are a finite resource. If unscrupulous collectors plunder the site and remove all the material, then it is lost forever. Meteorites are different in that they are not "fixed" but are random in the sense that they can fall at any time, in any place. However, from my point of view as a curator, ought I to have the desire to possess in the National Collection, a sample of each of the four Scottish falls? I do have that desire and the fact that the museum doesn't possess all Scottish meteorites leads to a feeling of both consternation and frustration. But it is a situation I accept Why don't you go and collect them yourself I hear you asking. Well, the short answer is - we would love to. We do go on collecting trips, but these are limited by budgetary constraints primarily, but also by the general workload faced by all curators. This is why we have tried to build a network of private collectors across the country that will work with is to the benefit of both parties. But the inescapable fact is that the market in geological specimens has moved onto a level which museums find it difficult to operate in. We rely to a large extent on donations or possibly exchange. Private collectors know that they can sell their specimens on the open market and receive a much better price than a museum can offer. I was heartened to hear that some private collectors and dealers are in favour of a greater collaboration with scientists and museums. All of us who love meteorites need to continue to work closely. We require the raw material to undertake research, and this gets fed back to the public through our publications. Scientists do find new information in old specimens; we would not be scientists if we did not constantly search for new data. But I would just like to finish with this thought. Many young people are familiar with meteorites through the media and the internet, but for many, the only opportunity they get to see and touch them is through museums and their curators. Many indeed of the list members may have been inspired to go and collect by seeing meteorites in a museum. Martin. Please do not take this as a personal attack. I find your e-mails well agued and thoughtful. Indeed it was your email that inspired me to pen this message. I have spoken about this in other lists, in other places. The meteorites will continue to fall, long after we are all gone. There should be enough for everyone. Don't forget us! All donations gratefully accepted. Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals ? National Museums Collection Centre National Museums Scotland 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Phone: +44?131 247 4283 p.davidson at nms.ac.uk www.nms.ac.uk ? ? Garden Detectives. Unearthing nature?s little secrets. 26 Jun ? 27 Sep. Admission free: www.nms.ac.uk/garden National Museums Scotland, Scottish Charity, No. SC 011130 This communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the addressee please inform the sender and delete the email from your system. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of National Museums Scotland. This message is subject to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. No liability is accepted for any harm that may be caused to your systems or data by this message. From mikewren at gilanet.com Wed Jul 8 09:28:50 2009 From: mikewren at gilanet.com (michael cottingham) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 06:28:50 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: AUCTIONS END TODAY! SALE ENDS TODAY- 10% to 50% OFF IN EBAY STORE! SIGNIFICANT DEALS ABOUND! References: <2A9465E8-A438-4A4A-B86F-6B448702A32F@gilanet.com> Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > From: michael cottingham > Date: July 7, 2009 8:51:30 PM GMT-07:00 > Subject: AD: AUCTIONS END TODAY! SALE ENDS TODAY- 10% to 50% OFF IN > EBAY STORE! SIGNIFICANT DEALS ABOUND! > > > >> >> >> Hello, >> >> Worth A look! I think this is one of my BEST SALES OF THE SUMMER! >> Rare Books, Rare Meteorites, A 10% to 50% Off Select Items. >> >> >> >> TO SEE ALL DISCOUNTS 10% to 50% Off! >> >> http://stores.ebay.com/voyage-botanica-natural-history >> >> >> ALL AUCTIONS ENDING WEDS/8th >> >> http://shop.ebay.com:80/merchant/meteorite-collector_W0QQLHQ5fAuctionZ1QQ >> >> >> Awesome Auctions Started At - 0.99 cents! >> >> THE FAMOUS RED BOOKS! >> >> BOOK RARE-Catalog Of Antarctic Meteorites >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358460702 >> >> BOOK RARE/Photographic Catalog of Antarctic Meteorites >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358807521 >> >> >> ASH CREEK OR WEST, TEXAS Specimens! >> >> (Ash Creek) The WEST, Texas Fall, L6, 22.53g >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358709028 >> >> (VERY NEW) The WEST, Texas Fall, L6, 2.50g >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358684542 >> >> (VERY NEW) The WEST, Texas Fall, L6, 17.76g--- THIS ONE IS NOT >> GOING LOWER--- >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358806474 >> >> (NEW) NWA 5530, H5, Large Slice, 486 gram BIG BIG SLICE! >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358726383 >> >> Outstanding Silicated Iron, NWA 5549, 10.46g -The Best Silicated >> Iron Around! >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358620007 >> >> (New) NWA 5059, L4, 1592 gram, Main Mass !!! A BIG SPECIMEN! >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358661449 >> >> Witnessed Fall THUATHE, Lesotho, 10.37 g >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358487120 >> >> Beautiful Translucent Slice BRENHAM 9.39g >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358748893 >> >> Nice TOLUCA Iron Individual, Mexico, 260 g >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358690070 >> >> (NEW), LA LUZ, New Mexico, H4, LTKW, 19.75g, NEXT TO LAST AVAILABLE >> SLICE! >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358693452 >> >> Super Rare JELICA, Fall From Serbia, LL6, ONLY SPECIMEN I HAVE! >> Very Rare. >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358671134 >> >> (NEW) Ungrouped Ataxite, GRIFFITH, TX, 25.49g, A Real Beauty! >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358183905 >> >> New Fall- TAMDAKHT, H5, 123.61g Lot of Frags- NICE GROUP OF >> SPECIMENS GOING CHEAP! >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358183049 >> >> (New) WILBUR WASH, Az., L6, Slice, 38.65 gram - ONE OF THE LAST >> LARGE SLICES! >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358185355 >> >> (New) Olivine Diogenite-NWA 5480, 1.19 gram -RARE & COOL! >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358182712 >> >> Rare Carbonaceous CO3.6, NWA 1277, 2.12 gram >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358183251 >> >> New Fall- TAMDAKHT, H5, 8.04 gram, With Crust, Really Nice Piece! >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358487411 >> >> (NEW) NWA 4851, L6 With Shock Lines, 98.18g, One Of My Last >> Specimens! >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358486521 >> >> Very Rare and Beautiful, NWA 801, CR2, 1.73g >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358342214 >> >> Very Rare DHOFAR 007,Cumulate Eucrite, 5.85g, Super Nice! >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358681752 >> >> Rare & Low TKW, DAVY (B), Texas, H4, 4.49g- Nice Slice! >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358186309 >> >> Seldom Available SOUSLOVO, Russia, L4, 1.53g MUST TAKE A LOOK- Cool >> Looking Chondrule! >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358186625 >> >> (New) NWA 5059, L4, 192 gram, Nice End Cut ! >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358679168 >> >> (New) NWA 4734, Lunar Specimen Display! >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200358187638 >> >> >> Of Course There Is A Lot More! >> >> Thanks and Best Wishes >> >> Michael Cottingham >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > From drtanuki at yahoo.com Wed Jul 8 10:30:06 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 07:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Seismic Data search for 6JUL09 meteor Message-ID: <677047.70730.qm@web53112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Steve, That is correct. A triangulation of three or more points will pin down your point of impact. This certainly COULD also be used in Arizona to locate the secret area 51 producing the H5s?. Steve if you are lucky you may be able to find a seismologist that would do the work for you. Contact the group at the University in Penn or Maryland or both. For the Arizona impact location do a search for seismic data (USGS) sites in Arizona and find the data for the time and day of impact. Best All, Dirk...Tokyo This has been used before to locate impact sites so it is not new technology. --- On Wed, 7/8/09, MeteorHntr at aol.com wrote: > From: MeteorHntr at aol.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Seismic Data search for 6JUL09 meteor > To: drtanuki at yahoo.com > Date: Wednesday, July 8, 2009, 10:30 PM > > > > > > > > In a message dated 7/8/2009 4:54:07 A.M. Central > Daylight Time, > drtanuki at yahoo.com writes: > > Dear > List, > ? Anyone with time and patience to search for seismic > data > related to the July 6, 2009 meteor in Pennsylvania, > Maryland please > check: > http://almaty.ldgo.columbia.edu:8080/data.request.htm#sta_map?76,175 > > Dirk > Ross...Tokyo > > Dirk, > ? > I have never done this before.? Does one have to > search for data then > triangulate it themselves? > > Steve Popular > laptop deals plus free shipping! > From mark.ford at ssl.gb.com Wed Jul 8 11:01:20 2009 From: mark.ford at ssl.gb.com (Mark Ford) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 16:01:20 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29A9DB45B84970458190D7D39BD42C4967B1FE@gamma.ssl.atw> Also we should never underestimate the contribution made to science by collectors! This is particularly true of meteorites, if no-one collected them, and created the resources needed for hunting them, our museum draws would actually be much emptier I suspect - Yes the market price would (arguably) be a little bit lower but how exactly does that help find more meteorites?? Imho, one of the reasons the market prices keep going up (particularly with historic artifacts) is newly found stuff simply flows in one direction into museum collections and archives. further limiting the market availability, this will only get worse if the supply of material to collectors gets even further choked off, by stupid blanket laws - for example if museums where allowed to trade and sell off some of the artifacts that are not needed then the market value would drop to sensible levels. (Ironically, there are countless thousands of useless orphaned contextless artifacts, that can serve no useful purpose sitting in museum draws all over the world, some are probably worth a small fortune on the open market - surely we should consider using some of this to fund much more important work, before we target private collectors). I believe we actually all have a personal responsibility to only keep and collect what we actually need to collect, museums included, that way everyone gets the chance to own these treasures without needing a mortgage, After all there is only so much to go round. Mark -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Peter Davidson Sent: 08 July 2009 12:02 To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies This is my first posting on this list - please be gentle with me. I have only been on the list a matter of a week or so and I seemed to have walked into a veritable storm. I would like to share my views with you as a curator. Please forgive this rather long mail. Taking a posting from Martin Altmann dated 7th July as my starting point, here goes. I have never heard a law being described as "exotic". Do you mean idiotic? I can in no way speak on behalf of all curators, far less Australian ones. I can only give you my own viewpoint but I do know many curators from Australia, mostly mineralogists, and please believe me when I tell you they are fine people and not the narrow-minded, nationalistic people hinted at in a number of e-mails. I also noted that Martin Altmann stated that everybody on the list was a "lousy layman" which is not only patently untrue but just a little sexist. But I digress. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us. 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Company No 1800317 From jkellybeatty at comcast.net Thu Jul 9 14:08:40 2009 From: jkellybeatty at comcast.net (Kelly Beatty) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 11:08:40 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Seismic Data search for 6JUL09 meteor In-Reply-To: <677047.70730.qm@web53112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <677047.70730.qm@web53112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40FA12327EE546309EE3A6DB7A5D2201@NightSkyGuy> folks... my take: this putative fall is unlikely to generate a seismic signal if pieces hit the ground at terminal free-fall velocity (several hundred mph for really large chunks, much less for smaller ones). meanwhile, I've analyzed Mike Hankey's photo. assuming the bolide was 1:10 am local time and "falling from the sky", as reports indicate, then the meteor segment in the image he took was centered at AZ 73?, AL 63??, and had a bearing toward the east-northeast horizon. clear skies, Kelly **************** J. Kelly Beatty Senior Contributing Editor SKY & TELESCOPE 617-416-9991 SkyandTelescope.com From marc.d.fries at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Jul 8 11:24:05 2009 From: marc.d.fries at jpl.nasa.gov (Fries, Marc D) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 08:24:05 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] FW: Seismic Data search for 6JUL09 meteor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So we?ve got folks looking over the seismic data, an astronomer?s take on the still photo, a nice .kmz by Elton... This is turning into a real ?stone soup? fireball event. I?m diggin? it. Cheers, Marc Fries On 7/9/09 11:08 AM, "Kelly Beatty" wrote: > folks... > > my take: this putative fall is unlikely to generate a seismic signal if > pieces hit the ground at terminal free-fall velocity (several hundred mph > for really large chunks, much less for smaller ones). > > meanwhile, I've analyzed Mike Hankey's photo. assuming the bolide was 1:10 > am local time and "falling from the sky", as reports indicate, then the > meteor segment in the image he took was centered at AZ 73?, AL 63??, and had > a bearing toward the east-northeast horizon. > > > clear skies, > Kelly > > **************** > J. Kelly Beatty > Senior Contributing Editor > SKY & TELESCOPE > 617-416-9991 > SkyandTelescope.com > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message From drtanuki at yahoo.com Wed Jul 8 12:00:25 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 09:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] FW: Seismic Data search for 6JUL09 meteor Message-ID: <245521.41470.qm@web53107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Marc, Who is going to follow up on the seismic data? I can assist then to a point. Best Regards, Dirk...Tokyo NEXRAD Radar in one post on my blog did not show anything but the operator may have not had the skill to interpret the data? --- On Thu, 7/9/09, Fries, Marc D wrote: > From: Fries, Marc D > Subject: [meteorite-list] FW: Seismic Data search for 6JUL09 meteor > To: "List" > Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 12:24 AM > > So we?ve got folks looking over the seismic data, an > astronomer?s take on > the still photo, a nice .kmz by Elton...? This is > turning into a real ?stone > soup? fireball event.???I?m diggin? it. > > Cheers, > Marc Fries > > > On 7/9/09 11:08 AM, "Kelly Beatty" > wrote: > > > folks... > > > > my take: this putative fall is unlikely to generate a > seismic signal if > > pieces hit the ground at terminal free-fall velocity > (several hundred mph > > for really large chunks, much less for smaller ones). > > > > meanwhile, I've analyzed Mike Hankey's photo. assuming > the bolide was 1:10 > > am local time and "falling from the sky", as reports > indicate, then the > > meteor segment in the image he took was centered at AZ > 73?, AL 63??, and had > > a bearing toward the east-northeast horizon. > > > > > > clear skies, > > Kelly > > > > **************** > > J. Kelly Beatty > > Senior Contributing Editor > > SKY & TELESCOPE > > 617-416-9991 > > SkyandTelescope.com > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteoritemike at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 12:04:35 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 12:04:35 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Peter, Welcome to the List. :) I do not speak for the list or a majority on it, so take my reply with the appropriate grain (or block) of salt. ;) I am an avid collector of meteorites and minerals (primarily meteorites), and I am also a happily married man. I mention the fact that I am married because there are parallels between the position of the married collector and the curator. I too operate within a strict budget and a set of rules that governs my ability to acquire and trade specimens. I do not mean to make light of the matter, but simply to say that I understand the necessity of balancing budget concerns and working within a framework of acceptable trading practices. Some wealthier collectors don't have this concern or it manifests to a lesser degree in their collecting. I want to thank you for taking the time to speak up and share your views on this issue as it effects the meteorite world. Speaking strictly as a collector, I would have little idea how to contact a museum or curator to begin establishing a working relationship that could include the exchange of specimens. The bigger and more established dealers are not going to broadcast their methods and connections to the rest of the world, so the next generation of major collectors is left in a position of ignorance regarding how to conduct business with museums and institutions. We either figure it out ourselves through trial and error, or we rely on the bigger and better-connected dealers to trade with the museums and then wait for the specimens to trickle down through the open marketplace. For example, how does a private collector approach a curator to open a dialogue? Does one just Google the museum and get a street address, phone number, or email address? And then contact the curator directly? Many private collectors think such direct contact would be frowned upon because the private collector may not have any official credentials - academic or otherwise. We would not want to waste the curator's time or make trouble for the museum staff. Also, I don't have any idea what kind of rules govern the trade between private individuals and museums/institutions. For example, I have a list of trading partners I have cultivated during my time of collecting. We often exchange specimens and the method involves the "honor system". If I say to my private trading partner - "I really like your slice of Barwell L5 chondrite, would you accept this fragment of Wold Cottage in trade for it?" - and if the deal is agreed upon, we simply pack up the specimen and mail it to the other party. There is no escrow or legal contacts involved - simply a gentleman's agreement that each person will live up to their end of the bargain. At any point, one person could fail to live up to their part and steal the other party's specimen - it's a risk of trading in this manner. (although it has never happened to me in countless trades) As a private collector, I would assume that museums and institutions that use public funds cannot conduct business in such a manner as private parties do. Surely there must be a vetting process of some kind to determine the reliability of the private part, paperwork, etc. Such stipulations, real or imagined, deter me from trying from conducting trades with museums, universities, and the like. I am one of those collectors who would love to see greater networking and cooperation between every member of the meteorite community - layperson and professional. But I am also one of those collectors who has little idea how to go about doing it. Perhaps this List is the perfect place to start. :) Best regards, MikeG On 7/8/09, Peter Davidson wrote: > This is my first posting on this list - please be gentle with me. I have > only been on the list a matter of a week or so and I seemed to have walked > into a veritable storm. I would like to share my views with you as a > curator. Please forgive this rather long mail. > > > > Taking a posting from Martin Altmann dated 7th July as my starting point, > here goes. > > > > I have never heard a law being described as "exotic". Do you mean idiotic? > > > > I can in no way speak on behalf of all curators, far less Australian ones. I > can only give you my own viewpoint but I do know many curators from > Australia, mostly mineralogists, and please believe me when I tell you they > are fine people and not the narrow-minded, nationalistic people hinted at in > a number of e-mails. I also noted that Martin Altmann stated that everybody > on the list was a "lousy layman" which is not only patently untrue but just > a little sexist. But I digress. > > > > Curators are every bit as dedicated to their collections as private > collectors are. We are not faceless bureaucrats (or similar) existing in > some Kafkaesque nightmare world hidebound by rules, and seeking to restrict > everyone else by creating a spider's web of red tape to trap the unwary. > That notion is as ridiculous to me as the presumption that all dealers > (minerals or meteorites) are shady and unscrupulous. As a curator at a > National Museum, I am obligated by law (yes, I know!) to preserve and > protect the collections of the museum and by extension, the nation. I choose > to do this. I work in the museum because I want to. Every curator I have met > shares with me a love of the specimens that they curate. We also share a > passionate believe that it is our duty to bring our collections to the > notice and attention of the public, and to make them available to > researchers and other curators. Believe me when I tell you that museum > curators/conservators are not well paid. We do it for love - well mostly. > When I joined the museum in 1975, I also had to undertake never to start and > build up my own collection. The collections of the museum ARE my > collections. > > > > I also feel that Martin overstates the influence scientist have at > governmental level. Yes, some scientists are asked to advise on certain > matters, but in the end it is the politician that decides. My observations > of this hated group, politicians that is, leads me to surmise that if some > short term political advantage can be gained by appealing to the masses, fed > to satedness by a largely right-wing populist press (the tabloids in the > UK), then they will always take that course of action, no matter what the > consequences are. This very often goes against the advice of > scientists/curators and negates many decades of good interaction between the > public and private sectors. As I mineralogist, I am painfully aware that the > market for display quality specimens has now passed beyond the reach of > publicly-funded museums. The meteorite market is no different. > > > > Nonetheless, as a curator at a National Museum, and I hope you can > understand this point of view, there is a duty to collect for the Nation > everything we can in order that we can research, interpret and explain to > the people of Scotland, its historical, sociological, artistic and > scientific heritage. The question raised by many contributors to the list > is: should meteorites fall into that category? Clearly the Australian > Government thought so, and so did the UK Government in the 1960's when > legislation was introduced to Parliament but never passed into law. > > > > We already do our utmost to protect other geological sites. This policy is > well intentioned and it can be argued that "fixed" geological outcrops, > either mineralogical or palaeontological are a finite resource. If > unscrupulous collectors plunder the site and remove all the material, then > it is lost forever. Meteorites are different in that they are not "fixed" > but are random in the sense that they can fall at any time, in any place. > However, from my point of view as a curator, ought I to have the desire to > possess in the National Collection, a sample of each of the four Scottish > falls? I do have that desire and the fact that the museum doesn't possess > all Scottish meteorites leads to a feeling of both consternation and > frustration. But it is a situation I accept > > > > Why don't you go and collect them yourself I hear you asking. Well, the > short answer is - we would love to. We do go on collecting trips, but these > are limited by budgetary constraints primarily, but also by the general > workload faced by all curators. This is why we have tried to build a network > of private collectors across the country that will work with is to the > benefit of both parties. But the inescapable fact is that the market in > geological specimens has moved onto a level which museums find it difficult > to operate in. We rely to a large extent on donations or possibly exchange. > Private collectors know that they can sell their specimens on the open > market and receive a much better price than a museum can offer. > > > > I was heartened to hear that some private collectors and dealers are in > favour of a greater collaboration with scientists and museums. All of us who > love meteorites need to continue to work closely. We require the raw > material to undertake research, and this gets fed back to the public through > our publications. Scientists do find new information in old specimens; we > would not be scientists if we did not constantly search for new data. But I > would just like to finish with this thought. Many young people are familiar > with meteorites through the media and the internet, but for many, the only > opportunity they get to see and touch them is through museums and their > curators. Many indeed of the list members may have been inspired to go and > collect by seeing meteorites in a museum. > > > > Martin. Please do not take this as a personal attack. I find your e-mails > well agued and thoughtful. Indeed it was your email that inspired me to pen > this message. I have spoken about this in other lists, in other places. The > meteorites will continue to fall, long after we are all gone. There should > be enough for everyone. > > > > Don't forget us! > > > > All donations gratefully accepted. > > Peter Davidson > Curator of Minerals > > National Museums Collection Centre > National Museums Scotland > 242 West Granton Road > Edinburgh > EH5 1JA > Phone: +44 131 247 4283 > p.davidson at nms.ac.uk > www.nms.ac.uk > > > > > Garden Detectives. Unearthing nature?s little secrets. 26 Jun ? 27 Sep. > Admission free: www.nms.ac.uk/garden > > National Museums Scotland, Scottish Charity, No. SC 011130 > > This communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the > addressee please inform the sender and delete the email from your system. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the > author and do not necessarily reflect those of National Museums Scotland. > This message is subject to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of > Information (Scotland) Act 2002. No liability is accepted for any harm that > may be caused to your systems or data by this message. > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From clp at alumni.caltech.edu Wed Jul 8 11:46:26 2009 From: clp at alumni.caltech.edu (Chris Peterson) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 09:46:26 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Seismic Data search for 6JUL09 meteor References: <677047.70730.qm@web53112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <40FA12327EE546309EE3A6DB7A5D2201@NightSkyGuy> Message-ID: Impacts don't create seismic events (unless they are hypervelocity, in which case they are easily located by the resulting crater!). The seismic events sometimes recorded are produced by atmospheric shock waves created by the fireball. And like video records, they only help establish a location for a segment of the path, and not the final position of any strewn field (which can be substantially in front of, behind, or to the side of the terminal explosion location). Chris ***************************************** Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly Beatty" To: Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Seismic Data search for 6JUL09 meteor folks... my take: this putative fall is unlikely to generate a seismic signal if pieces hit the ground at terminal free-fall velocity (several hundred mph for really large chunks, much less for smaller ones). meanwhile, I've analyzed Mike Hankey's photo. assuming the bolide was 1:10 am local time and "falling from the sky", as reports indicate, then the meteor segment in the image he took was centered at AZ 73?, AL 63??, and had a bearing toward the east-northeast horizon. clear skies, Kelly **************** J. Kelly Beatty Senior Contributing Editor SKY & TELESCOPE 617-416-9991 SkyandTelescope.com From jbaxter112 at pol.net Wed Jul 8 12:08:51 2009 From: jbaxter112 at pol.net (James Baxter) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 12:08:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies In-Reply-To: <404315623.656891247056294409.JavaMail.root@zmcs01l-pol-08.portal.webmd.com> Message-ID: <746326697.700851247069331331.JavaMail.root@zmcs01l-pol-08.portal.webmd.com> Hello Peter, Welcome to the list. Thanks for your contribution. It is nice to get a curator's perspective. I'm sure most if not all list members are envious of your job and support your work. I do feel you have not answered Martin's central argument that if laws prohibiting export were not in place your Australian colleagues would have far more material to study through dealer and collector contributions and trades. As a humble private collector I like to think I am supporting (or at least not depriving) the public institutions' collections. I know many of the dealers I support with my purchases have donated or traded large amounts of material to public institutions. This may be simple rationalization, but I do feel Martin's numbers regarding finds in the US compared to Australia imply that we collectors are likely increasing rather than decreasing the amount of material available to these institutions. I would love to hear your thoughts about whether you feel this argument is valid. Best Wishes, Jim Baxter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Davidson" To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2009 4:02:08 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies This is my first posting on this list - please be gentle with me. I have only been on the list a matter of a week or so and I seemed to have walked into a veritable storm. I would like to share my views with you as a curator. Please forgive this rather long mail. Taking a posting from Martin Altmann dated 7th July as my starting point, here goes. I have never heard a law being described as "exotic". Do you mean idiotic? I can in no way speak on behalf of all curators, far less Australian ones. I can only give you my own viewpoint but I do know many curators from Australia, mostly mineralogists, and please believe me when I tell you they are fine people and not the narrow-minded, nationalistic people hinted at in a number of e-mails. I also noted that Martin Altmann stated that everybody on the list was a "lousy layman" which is not only patently untrue but just a little sexist. But I digress. Curators are every bit as dedicated to their collections as private collectors are. We are not faceless bureaucrats (or similar) existing in some Kafkaesque nightmare world hidebound by rules, and seeking to restrict everyone else by creating a spider's web of red tape to trap the unwary. That notion is as ridiculous to me as the presumption that all dealers (minerals or meteorites) are shady and unscrupulous. As a curator at a National Museum, I am obligated by law (yes, I know!) to preserve and protect the collections of the museum and by extension, the nation. I choose to do this. I work in the museum because I want to. Every curator I have met shares with me a love of the specimens that they curate. We also share a passionate believe that it is our duty to bring our collections to the notice and attention of the public, and to make them available to researchers and other curators. Believe me when I tell you that museum curators/conservators are not well paid. We do it for love - well mostly. When I joined the museum in 1975, I also had to undertake never to start and build up my own collection. The collections of the museum ARE my collections. I also feel that Martin overstates the influence scientist have at governmental level. Yes, some scientists are asked to advise on certain matters, but in the end it is the politician that decides. My observations of this hated group, politicians that is, leads me to surmise that if some short term political advantage can be gained by appealing to the masses, fed to satedness by a largely right-wing populist press (the tabloids in the UK), then they will always take that course of action, no matter what the consequences are. This very often goes against the advice of scientists/curators and negates many decades of good interaction between the public and private sectors. As I mineralogist, I am painfully aware that the market for display quality specimens has now passed beyond the reach of publicly-funded museums. The meteorite market is no different. Nonetheless, as a curator at a National Museum, and I hope you can understand this point of view, there is a duty to collect for the Nation everything we can in order that we can research, interpret and explain to the people of Scotland, its historical, sociological, artistic and scientific heritage. The question raised by many contributors to the list is: should meteorites fall into that category? Clearly the Australian Government thought so, and so did the UK Government in the 1960's when legislation was introduced to Parliament but never passed into law. We already do our utmost to protect other geological sites. This policy is well intentioned and it can be argued that "fixed" geological outcrops, either mineralogical or palaeontological are a finite resource. If unscrupulous collectors plunder the site and remove all the material, then it is lost forever. Meteorites are different in that they are not "fixed" but are random in the sense that they can fall at any time, in any place. However, from my point of view as a curator, ought I to have the desire to possess in the National Collection, a sample of each of the four Scottish falls? I do have that desire and the fact that the museum doesn't possess all Scottish meteorites leads to a feeling of both consternation and frustration. But it is a situation I accept Why don't you go and collect them yourself I hear you asking. Well, the short answer is - we would love to. We do go on collecting trips, but these are limited by budgetary constraints primarily, but also by the general workload faced by all curators. This is why we have tried to build a network of private collectors across the country that will work with is to the benefit of both parties. But the inescapable fact is that the market in geological specimens has moved onto a level which museums find it difficult to operate in. We rely to a large extent on donations or possibly exchange. Private collectors know that they can sell their specimens on the open market and receive a much better price than a museum can offer. I was heartened to hear that some private collectors and dealers are in favour of a greater collaboration with scientists and museums. All of us who love meteorites need to continue to work closely. We require the raw material to undertake research, and this gets fed back to the public through our publications. Scientists do find new information in old specimens; we would not be scientists if we did not constantly search for new data. But I would just like to finish with this thought. Many young people are familiar with meteorites through the media and the internet, but for many, the only opportunity they get to see and touch them is through museums and their curators. Many indeed of the list members may have been inspired to go and collect by seeing meteorites in a museum. Martin. Please do not take this as a personal attack. I find your e-mails well agued and thoughtful. Indeed it was your email that inspired me to pen this message. I have spoken about this in other lists, in other places. The meteorites will continue to fall, long after we are all gone. There should be enough for everyone. Don't forget us! All donations gratefully accepted. Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals ? National Museums Collection Centre National Museums Scotland 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Phone: +44?131 247 4283 p.davidson at nms.ac.uk www.nms.ac.uk ? ? Garden Detectives. Unearthing nature?s little secrets. 26 Jun ? 27 Sep. Admission free: www.nms.ac.uk/garden National Museums Scotland, Scottish Charity, No. SC 011130 This communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the addressee please inform the sender and delete the email from your system. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of National Museums Scotland. This message is subject to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. No liability is accepted for any harm that may be caused to your systems or data by this message. ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From eric at meteoritesusa.com Wed Jul 8 14:03:32 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 11:03:32 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: PA Fireball Sale - 102 Meteorite Listings Message-ID: <4A54DF74.6030307@meteoritesusa.com> Hi listees, In the spirit of the fireballs and meteorites we love so dearly, a special sale has been put together on ALL of our meteorites in our Ebay store. If you haven't looked at what I have available it's really a good idea to do so now. 102 meteorites are priced from .20/g to .33/g to move fast, and yes, they have been moving very fast since we marked them down last night. This is a limited time deal at these prices. Auctions & Store Items: http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/freel3orn FREE SHIPPING inside the USA on all orders over $50! We must sell these items today! Bigger discounts are available on bigger orders. $250 plus orders get even better pricing. Call or email me off-list for these prices: 904-236-5394 The meteorites listed are unclassified nwa stone chondrites, expertly cleaned, prepped, sliced, and/or polished slices, end cuts, and whole stones. The best meteorites will go first, so don't wait, the prices will not go lower, and I will not hold items. Please, due to the urgency of this sale items must be paid for within 24 hrs of using Buy-It-Now. This sale is to help generate funds for a possible hunt in the event we narrow a search field or a stone is found by a local, so your purchase will go to help fund this very worthy cause... ;) This is your chance to get some very nice meteorite specimens on the cheap. -- Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA http://www.meteoritesusa.com 904-236-5394 Since I emailed on July 4th, I will not email again until next week. Thank you for your patience. From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Wed Jul 8 14:20:24 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 20:20:24 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007d01c9fff8$c3802fa0$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Hello Peter, Confrere, Finally a curator writing on the list to limn that complex from his angle, many thanks for that. Peter, if you read my postings, you will find, that I agree with all your points. (somewhere you read maybe something behind the lines, which in fact doesn't stand there, perhaps it's also because I can't express myself so nuanced in that foreign language, my fault). Well. Nobody on the list here and in the private meteorite sector casts the slightest doubts on the eligibility of national institutes to get parts of the finds and falls of their country into their collections. On contrary they all welcome that. The problems are different and unfortunately quite dramatic. To most of them I wrote a whole epic here on the list, Today I won't recapitulate that all, because today I'm ill. The main question is: What does the "official" side want. A) Do they want to have large quantities of rare meteorites and new recoveries? Hence more an objective target pointing in the direction of research, space exploration ect. B) Do they want to have saved their national heritage or however one could call it? That is a more historic and conservatorical approach. Subsequent question is: What for instruments do we have and shall we use to achieve the first goal or the second goal or even both. (and with the special regard, that many institutes don't have anymore the financial funds, which they had the 200 years before). The instruments urgently suggested or already working make the goals A) and B) to incompatible opposites. and as all data and statistics undisputedly demonstrate, these instruments counteract both goals. So we should get perhaps first clarity, what the "official" side wants. (btw. the division into private and official antagonists is, as often you can read it though, unhistoric and highly artificial). And then we have to think, whether we do want an improvement, a persistence on the status quo or a worsening. Most of my posts tended to avoid at least that the situation get's worse. For today, Martin PS. Mark, I have to profoundly disagree. The meteorite prices of the last 200 years, as well as the expenses of institutional collections are preserved and knownof today . They prove that meteorites never were so cheap than in this decade and that the meteorite prices on the commercial sector are - by far - the lowest in history. (which makes that not so Gordian situation especially bizarre). -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Peter Davidson Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. Juli 2009 13:02 An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies This is my first posting on this list - please be gentle with me. I have only been on the list a matter of a week or so and I seemed to have walked into a veritable storm. I would like to share my views with you as a curator. Please forgive this rather long mail. Taking a posting from Martin Altmann dated 7th July as my starting point, here goes. I have never heard a law being described as "exotic". Do you mean idiotic? I can in no way speak on behalf of all curators, far less Australian ones. I can only give you my own viewpoint but I do know many curators from Australia, mostly mineralogists, and please believe me when I tell you they are fine people and not the narrow-minded, nationalistic people hinted at in a number of e-mails. I also noted that Martin Altmann stated that everybody on the list was a "lousy layman" which is not only patently untrue but just a little sexist. But I digress. Curators are every bit as dedicated to their collections as private collectors are. We are not faceless bureaucrats (or similar) existing in some Kafkaesque nightmare world hidebound by rules, and seeking to restrict everyone else by creating a spider's web of red tape to trap the unwary. That notion is as ridiculous to me as the presumption that all dealers (minerals or meteorites) are shady and unscrupulous. As a curator at a National Museum, I am obligated by law (yes, I know!) to preserve and protect the collections of the museum and by extension, the nation. I choose to do this. I work in the museum because I want to. Every curator I have met shares with me a love of the specimens that they curate. We also share a passionate believe that it is our duty to bring our collections to the notice and attention of the public, and to make them available to researchers and other curators. Believe me when I tell you that museum curators/conservators are not well paid. We do it for love - well mostly. When I joined the museum in 1975, I also had to undertake never to start and build up my own collection. The collections of the museum ARE my collections. I also feel that Martin overstates the influence scientist have at governmental level. Yes, some scientists are asked to advise on certain matters, but in the end it is the politician that decides. My observations of this hated group, politicians that is, leads me to surmise that if some short term political advantage can be gained by appealing to the masses, fed to satedness by a largely right-wing populist press (the tabloids in the UK), then they will always take that course of action, no matter what the consequences are. This very often goes against the advice of scientists/curators and negates many decades of good interaction between the public and private sectors. As I mineralogist, I am painfully aware that the market for display quality specimens has now passed beyond the reach of publicly-funded museums. The meteorite market is no different. Nonetheless, as a curator at a National Museum, and I hope you can understand this point of view, there is a duty to collect for the Nation everything we can in order that we can research, interpret and explain to the people of Scotland, its historical, sociological, artistic and scientific heritage. The question raised by many contributors to the list is: should meteorites fall into that category? Clearly the Australian Government thought so, and so did the UK Government in the 1960's when legislation was introduced to Parliament but never passed into law. We already do our utmost to protect other geological sites. This policy is well intentioned and it can be argued that "fixed" geological outcrops, either mineralogical or palaeontological are a finite resource. If unscrupulous collectors plunder the site and remove all the material, then it is lost forever. Meteorites are different in that they are not "fixed" but are random in the sense that they can fall at any time, in any place. However, from my point of view as a curator, ought I to have the desire to possess in the National Collection, a sample of each of the four Scottish falls? I do have that desire and the fact that the museum doesn't possess all Scottish meteorites leads to a feeling of both consternation and frustration. But it is a situation I accept Why don't you go and collect them yourself I hear you asking. Well, the short answer is - we would love to. We do go on collecting trips, but these are limited by budgetary constraints primarily, but also by the general workload faced by all curators. This is why we have tried to build a network of private collectors across the country that will work with is to the benefit of both parties. But the inescapable fact is that the market in geological specimens has moved onto a level which museums find it difficult to operate in. We rely to a large extent on donations or possibly exchange. Private collectors know that they can sell their specimens on the open market and receive a much better price than a museum can offer. I was heartened to hear that some private collectors and dealers are in favour of a greater collaboration with scientists and museums. All of us who love meteorites need to continue to work closely. We require the raw material to undertake research, and this gets fed back to the public through our publications. Scientists do find new information in old specimens; we would not be scientists if we did not constantly search for new data. But I would just like to finish with this thought. Many young people are familiar with meteorites through the media and the internet, but for many, the only opportunity they get to see and touch them is through museums and their curators. Many indeed of the list members may have been inspired to go and collect by seeing meteorites in a museum. Martin. Please do not take this as a personal attack. I find your e-mails well agued and thoughtful. Indeed it was your email that inspired me to pen this message. I have spoken about this in other lists, in other places. The meteorites will continue to fall, long after we are all gone. There should be enough for everyone. Don't forget us! All donations gratefully accepted. Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals ? National Museums Collection Centre National Museums Scotland 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Phone: +44?131 247 4283 p.davidson at nms.ac.uk www.nms.ac.uk ? ? Garden Detectives. Unearthing nature?s little secrets. 26 Jun ? 27 Sep. Admission free: www.nms.ac.uk/garden National Museums Scotland, Scottish Charity, No. SC 011130 This communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the addressee please inform the sender and delete the email from your system. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of National Museums Scotland. This message is subject to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. No liability is accepted for any harm that may be caused to your systems or data by this message. ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 8 14:55:10 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 11:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Seismic Data search for 6JUL09 meteor Message-ID: <30857.98364.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Thank you for stepping up and great work there Kelly on the elevation, I have a planetarium application on my computer but knocked off at 4am on trying to get an elevation based on a general Baltimore location on the evening and time in question. Let me address several points in the broader area of having to rethink and rework traditional data collecting on fireballs in general and this one in particular. Yes--there is some emerging data which points to a more SE-NW (as opposed to a E-W) trajectory than was indicated before. This could result in a fall/terminus back inside PA between Gettysberg and York. If so, this raises a caution against accepting at face value, the reliability of self-reported fireball reports. As I've mentioned before, a part of the science is an on site interview with the witness to refine their experience with simple tools and confirm their true orientation. I believe seismic data can be used to reconstruct the trajectory/ground path even if the thump of a fall is not detected. Given that the US Air Force has now made satellite data classified, we need to find and validate other data sources which go untapped for fireball track information. This event lends itself to that validation. I am working on another fireball for which seismic data is scant but shows two deviations. One consistent with the sonic boom arrival time and another approx 30 min later consistent with a fall from altitude arriving on the ground. These "spikes" are in the usual capture of events such as mine blasting, truck accidents, train couplings, etc. which seismologist have no reason to explore. I know that sonic boom signatures were captured by seismometers as early as the 60's--I believe even for the Shuttle Orbiter's returns--They don't rise above the level of typical noise unless one matches them with the known time of the event across several stations. I believe the 9-11 towers collapsing rose to the level of earthquake energy, if memory serves. I believe that in the normally captured --but normally discarded data, however weakly it is captured, is a scientifically valid signature of the ground track for fireballs such as these. In this case we have reports of sound energy so strong that houses shook and in one case a report of a pressure change within a house that included slapping open exhaust fan shutters. Be it remembered that in the old days of unrestricted supersonic flight over land the Air Force paid for a lot of cracked windows. As to this PA/MD Event something with this much energy is going to show up on seismograms but the seismologist that review them won't recognize as such because they only think in the paradigm of things which are of earthquake energies. We need to get them thinking above the ground. Finally, it takes weeks to put together a working team if you are within academia and more so if one request the data from the private sector. I hope someone with connections on the list might be able to get a seismologist interested in making a network inquiry-- For reasons unknown to me, there appear to be multiple seismic network arrays and affiliations that do not talk to each other. Elton --- On Thu, 7/9/09, Kelly Beatty wrote: > my take: this putative fall is unlikely to generate a > seismic signal if pieces hit the ground at terminal free-fall velocity > (several hundred mph for really large chunks, much less for smaller ones). meanwhile, I've analyzed Mike Hankey's photo. assuming the > bolide was 1:10 am local time and "falling from the sky", as reports > indicate, then the meteor segment in the image he took was centered at AZ 73?, AL 63??, and had a bearing toward the east-northeast horizon. > clear skies, > Kelly > > **************** > J. Kelly Beatty > Senior Contributing Editor > SKY & TELESCOPE > 617-416-9991 > SkyandTelescope.com From MeteorHntr at aol.com Wed Jul 8 16:10:45 2009 From: MeteorHntr at aol.com (MeteorHntr at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 16:10:45 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] AD, West offer Message-ID: Hey guys, To celebrate the new falls, I am willing to make a deal on one of my remaining West/Ask Creek Stones to raise some travel funds. Visit the photos at photobucket and find one not sold and make me an offer that can be paypaled to me immediately. I will take the best offer and hope to have more to sell soon of one of the new ones. http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo52/stevearnoldpmh/ Steve Arnold Of :"Meteorite Men" **************Popular laptop deals plus free shipping! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221917659x1201411421/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.media plex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D2) From nwa482 at comcast.net Wed Jul 8 17:06:02 2009 From: nwa482 at comcast.net (Jim Strope) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 21:06:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [meteorite-list] Esquel SALE Message-ID: <1702800142.298701247087162409.JavaMail.root@sz0057a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Looking to raise some cash, (not for hunting meteorites!!!) for vacations this summer. Highly translucent. Polished on one side, Etched on the other side. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200360871218 Oh, and check out my website too, if you see anything that strikes your fancy, I am open to REASONABLE offers! Thanks for looking !!!!! Jim Strope 421 Fourth Street Glen Dale, WV ?26038 http://www.catchafallingstar.com/ From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 8 19:17:27 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 16:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] New Ad Hoc Fireball research group at Yahoo.groups Message-ID: <948970.38254.qm@web55201.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Short gist: I felt the need for a working group /discussion platform to sort out the nitty-gritty details regarding a major fireball sighting. Also to give a sounding board/ semi-peer review for conclusions before they are released into cyberspace. I hastily set up this group until something better happens it is not cyber empire building. I invite co-owners. I/we need a couple fair minded moderators and a bunch of meteor/meteorite seasoned individuals who are willing to learn and share in a synergy setting. Our goals are to bring long time experts to the table to discuss the process of collecting data and to assist field investigators--many newly interested with whatever fireball flew over their head last night-- with a positive step by step approach to putting together an accurate picture of the event. This is not a meteorite hunting group and it is not just about finding meteorites. I hope it will be a venue for consolidating fireball data for all facets of fireball behavior and to preserve it for future researchers. As noted on the homepage this is a supplement to our more familiar groups not meant to take away from routine discussion or present day mission of any organizations. It is to handle the increased flow of technical messaging that peaks after an event and to insure someone taps all sources of data regarding the fireball in question. Eventually we hope to have guides on how to go about collecting information what equipment to have on hand and how to conduct a field interview etc. to speed the process or collecting data while the memory is fresh. Any member will be able to post but if you just want to join to watch the mind-blowing er numbing exchanges you are welcome to sit in the balcony. Other bloggers and writers are welcome to use our results in their feeds for the time being --but remember we will have privacy issues when it comes to private land owner names etc which should remain within the group. That said we are open for business and there is certainly lots of work to go around don't be shy. Regards, Elton From paul at meteorite.com Wed Jul 8 20:11:46 2009 From: paul at meteorite.com (Paul Harris) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:11:46 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-Times July Issue Now Up Message-ID: <4A5535C2.3030906@meteorite.com> Hello Everyone, The July issue of Meteorite-Times is now up. http://www.meteorite-times.com/ Enjoy! Paul and Jim From stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 8 21:39:06 2009 From: stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com (steve arnold) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 18:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] (AD) meteorites forsale Message-ID: <921019.58446.qm@web57802.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi everyone.I have a few nice meteorites forsale all with free shipping.I have a 201.5 gram, sikote-alin for $200,also a 79 gram nice sikote-alin with flow lines for $100.I have a gibeon slice that is 70 grams with a huge troilite hole thru it for $100,also there?is a 22 gram endcut of nwa 5477 which is an?L3 with lots of chondrules for $200,also a 38.5 slice of nwa 2827.I also have a 161.5 gram endcut of a campo silicated iron.It really looks like portales valley the way it was cut? for $200.And I have a 274.5 gram individual of las palmas for $80.Let me know off list if interested.I need to raise a few $$$$$$$ for a very big aquisition. ?Steve R. Arnold From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 8 22:05:50 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 19:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Google Earth Kmz file for July 6 Fireball PA Version 2 available Message-ID: <131355.73684.qm@web55205.mail.re4.yahoo.com> The "plotting" thickens.... I have finished plotting the bearings from the fireball reports where bearings noted including correcting transcription typos. So witness locations have azimuth legs projected over the ground and one can see where they tend to overlap. In Google Earth you can turn off the lines you wish by deselecting the box by the file name. Track names in this case correspond to the AMS log for event 371 a,b,c,and so on to t. We now have a well documented photo through a telescope in Freeland, MD thanks to Mike Hankey which can be viewed at who happened to be taking a timed exposure of known objects. The derived Az and El for the track of the fireball from this location is AZ 73?, AL 63??, and had a bearing toward the east-northeast horizon courtesy of Kelly Beatty at Sky and Telescope(TM). We also await the specifics from a security camera in York, Pa in order to generate another precise azimuth. Some reports still do not fit the over all data and frankly there are information snipets a float which give credence for up to 4 different trajectories/ground tracks. One which is emerging as the new leader is one which carried the fireball towards York, PA but we still can't make a statement if the it passed East, West or Over York. That is to say that it is looking less likely that there was a direct East to West trajectory parallel to the PA/MD State Line and ending over Maryland as I previously estimated. Someone will announce when they have been uploaded to a website or if you need it tonight email me off list. Again this is a collection of reports that have been graphically rendered to make them easier to evaluate. They were released to give a consolidated overlay on a map. I placed a straight edge along the margins and looked for possible tracks where reports agreed--That is where two adjacent witness locations agreed that the fireball passed between them. A final note on understanding elevations. Generally the closer you are to a fireball's path the higher in the sky it will be. Those reports with low elevations tend to be at a much greater distance. Regards, Elton From meteoritemike at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 22:22:16 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 22:22:16 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Google Earth Kmz file for July 6 Fireball PA Version 2 available In-Reply-To: <131355.73684.qm@web55205.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <131355.73684.qm@web55205.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Elton, You sir, are the man. :) Nice work. Best regards, MikeG On 7/8/09, Mr EMan wrote: > > The "plotting" thickens.... > > I have finished plotting the bearings from the fireball reports where > bearings noted including correcting transcription typos. So witness > locations have azimuth legs projected over the ground and one can see where > they tend to overlap. In Google Earth you can turn off the lines you wish by > deselecting the box by the file name. Track names in this case correspond to > the AMS log for event 371 a,b,c,and so on to t. > > We now have a well documented photo through a telescope in Freeland, MD > thanks to Mike Hankey which can be viewed at > who happened to be taking a timed > exposure of known objects. The derived Az and El for the track of the > fireball from this location is AZ 73?, AL 63??, and had a bearing toward the > east-northeast horizon courtesy of Kelly Beatty at Sky and Telescope(TM). > We also await the specifics from a security camera in York, Pa in order to > generate another precise azimuth. > > Some reports still do not fit the over all data and frankly there are > information snipets a float which give credence for up to 4 different > trajectories/ground tracks. One which is emerging as the new leader is one > which carried the fireball towards York, PA but we still can't make a > statement if the it passed East, West or Over York. That is to say that it > is looking less likely that there was a direct East to West trajectory > parallel to the PA/MD State Line and ending over Maryland as I previously > estimated. > > Someone will announce when they have been uploaded to a website or if you > need it tonight email me off list. > > Again this is a collection of reports that have been graphically rendered to > make them easier to evaluate. They were released to give a consolidated > overlay on a map. I placed a straight edge along the margins and looked for > possible tracks where reports agreed--That is where two adjacent witness > locations agreed that the fireball passed between them. > > A final note on understanding elevations. Generally the closer you are to a > fireball's path the higher in the sky it will be. Those reports with low > elevations tend to be at a much greater distance. > > Regards, > Elton > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... From cynapse at charter.net Thu Jul 9 01:40:20 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 00:40:20 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA In-Reply-To: <3C4087BB3DEE44BFA1E9518B4B74B205@D190TH71> References: <3C4087BB3DEE44BFA1E9518B4B74B205@D190TH71> Message-ID: Security camera video. (And the makings of another circus, with all the press): http://ydr.inyork.com/ci_12790056 From drtanuki at yahoo.com Thu Jul 9 01:03:34 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 22:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA Message-ID: <665713.87183.qm@web53111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Darren and List, Darren wrote: "(And the > makings of another circus, with all the press)": Circus indeed with a title of "Meteorite hunters looking for treasure in York County". Treasure hunters again!!!...this leaves a bad taste in one`s mouth for people in meteorites! When will the "meteorite hunters" get the advertisement of "treasure hunting" and act professional or at least correct the press before it goes to print? Great quotes!... ".... Garcia said. For example, a fossil might be found inside. Some of the meteorites are sold to collectors, Garcia said. Some also trade and barter for pieces. Meteorites are worth 5 cents a gram to $1,000 a gram, depending on how rare they are, Arnold said. Another Pirate show? Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo --- On Thu, 7/9/09, Darren Garrison wrote: > From: Darren Garrison > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 2:40 PM > Security camera video.? (And the > makings of another circus, with all the press): > > http://ydr.inyork.com/ci_12790056 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From MeteorHntr at aol.com Thu Jul 9 01:12:06 2009 From: MeteorHntr at aol.com (MeteorHntr at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 01:12:06 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA Message-ID: Dirk, Yea, it is hard to answer the question: "What are meteorites worth?" Personally I don't like to lie to people and say they are not worth anything. Especially when a simple search on ebay will show that meteorites are indeed worth from around 5 cents a gram up to $1,000 a gram. When the reporters pressed me how much these would be worth, I refused to give a number. I told them I didn't know, and there were too many factors that would determine what they are worth. So I guess they went with the simple shorter quote. I am not sure what you mean by "Anther Pirate show?" Would you expound? Steve Arnold In a message dated 7/9/2009 12:03:44 A.M. Central Daylight Time, drtanuki at yahoo.com writes: Meteorites are worth 5 cents a gram to $1,000 a gram, depending on how rare they are, Arnold said. Another Pirate show? **************Dell Studio XPS Desktop: Save up to $400 - Limited Time Offer (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222466512x1201463496/aol?redir=htt p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D3) From cynapse at charter.net Thu Jul 9 02:17:00 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 01:17:00 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA In-Reply-To: <665713.87183.qm@web53111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <665713.87183.qm@web53111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 22:03:34 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >Meteorites are worth 5 cents a gram to $1,000 a gram, depending on how rare they are, Arnold said. > Three guesses which figure any property owner reading that is more likely to ask for... From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 9 01:35:52 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 22:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA Message-ID: <573380.26232.qm@web55201.mail.re4.yahoo.com> On Thu, 7/9/09, Darren Garrison wrote: > >Meteorites are worth 5 cents a gram to $1,000 a gram, > depending on how rare they are, Arnold said. > Three guesses which figure any property owner reading that > is more likely to ask for... ROTFL MSOMN ( Rolling on the floor laughing milk squirting out my nose) Thanks I needed that Darren, great timing. I remain baffled at what looked pretty simple plotting and aiming sent me in such a different direction. I don't see how so many distant observers felt and saw a fireball coming from an almost opposite direction from what they reported. Then again test results and beauty contestants show Americans are geographically illiterate compared to the rest of the world. Thanks Steve for the efforts to find hard data. This will be one for the books. Early on I got a feeling this fireball came in from the east coast, stopped, backed up and took a right and turn to the north just going by the blog entries I read. Hopefully, our folks are closing in on any debris. Speaking of debris a lot of dust is generated in these trails that settles to the ground after the event so someone please remember to sample the surfaces of felled trees, gutter spouts, etc. looking for micrometeorite spheres. Just one more technique and data set to consider which we might be able to work back from to refine trajectory. Elton From marc.d.fries at jpl.nasa.gov Thu Jul 9 01:40:27 2009 From: marc.d.fries at jpl.nasa.gov (Fries, Marc D) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 22:40:27 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA In-Reply-To: <573380.26232.qm@web55201.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Speaking of debris a lot > of dust is generated in these trails that settles to the ground after the > event so someone please remember to sample the surfaces of felled trees, > gutter spouts, etc. looking for micrometeorite spheres. I second the motion. In the event that no meteorites turn up, a sample of freshly fallen fine debris should be sufficient to identify the meteorite by type if nothing else. Cheers, MDF From drtanuki at yahoo.com Thu Jul 9 01:54:43 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 22:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA Message-ID: <264801.48418.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Forwarding for Ruben. --- On Thu, 7/9/09, Ruben Garcia wrote: > From: Ruben Garcia > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA > To: "drtanuki" , cynapse at charter.net, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 2:41 PM > > Hi guys, > I'm pretty sure I can't post to this list - at > least that has been the case for a few weeks now. I did CC > the list though. > ? > Dirk, What you must understand is what you say and > what gets printed are nearly always two different things. I > never said anything about "Treasure" not one word. > Nor did I say that an actual fossil would be found. What I > said was?that maybe one day signs of life (from other > planets ) may be found on a fresh fall such as this. She > must have assumed "fossil". > ? > However, this quote is pretty much what I said > "Some of the meteorites are sold to collectors, Garcia > said. Some also trade and barter for > pieces."?? I don't know why that is bad > or inaccurate....? That is what we do.....? > Right? > ? > She pressed me on what they were worth and I said > NOTHING. But I do understand what Steve said and I agree > with him....?? What else could he have said when > pressed? > ? > Oh ya, We did not call the press! We only called York > water to get a look at the camera. She (the reporter) called > York water also to look at their camera. Jeff from York told > her when we would be there as he didn't have time to > entertain her, then Steve, then us- so he did it all at > once... > ? > Since I can't respond to the entire list can you > or Darrin please post this? > ? > ?Ruben Garcia > Phoenix, Arizona > My Website: http://www.Mr-Meteorite.Net > My Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ > My Videos: > http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=meteorfright&p=v > > > > > > > > From: > drtanuki > To: > cynapse at charter.net; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Sent: > Wednesday, July 8, 2009 10:03:34 PM > Subject: Re: > [meteorite-list] - "witness" to July 6 Fireball > PA > > > Dear Darren and List, > > Darren wrote: "(And the > > makings of another circus, with all the press)": > > Circus indeed with a title of "Meteorite hunters > looking for treasure in York County".? Treasure > hunters again!!!...this leaves a bad taste in one`s mouth > for people in meteorites!? When will the > "meteorite hunters" get the advertisement of > "treasure hunting" and act professional or at > least correct the press before it goes to print? > > Great quotes!... > > ".... Garcia said. For example, a fossil might be > found inside. > > Some of the meteorites are sold to collectors, Garcia said. > Some also trade and barter for pieces. > > Meteorites are worth 5 cents a gram to $1,000 a gram, > depending on how rare they are, Arnold said. > > ? Another Pirate show? > > > Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo > > > --- On Thu, 7/9/09, Darren Garrison > wrote: > > > From: Darren Garrison > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] - "witness" to > July 6 Fireball PA > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 2:40 PM > > Security camera video.? (And the > > makings of another circus, with > all the press): > > > > http://ydr.inyork.com/ci_12790056 > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > From mikewren at gilanet.com Thu Jul 9 02:01:54 2009 From: mikewren at gilanet.com (michael cottingham) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 23:01:54 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA In-Reply-To: <264801.48418.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <264801.48418.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0A3D4404-533E-45EE-85A5-49A0951A85B1@gilanet.com> ..... and some people may wonder why some of the strewn fields are kept "secret" Best Wishes Michael Cottingham On Jul 8, 2009, at 10:54 PM, drtanuki wrote: > > Forwarding for Ruben. > > --- On Thu, 7/9/09, Ruben Garcia wrote: > >> From: Ruben Garcia >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA >> To: "drtanuki" , cynapse at charter.net, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 2:41 PM >> >> Hi guys, >> I'm pretty sure I can't post to this list - at >> least that has been the case for a few weeks now. I did CC >> the list though. >> >> Dirk, What you must understand is what you say and >> what gets printed are nearly always two different things. I >> never said anything about "Treasure" not one word. >> Nor did I say that an actual fossil would be found. What I >> said was that maybe one day signs of life (from other >> planets ) may be found on a fresh fall such as this. She >> must have assumed "fossil". >> >> However, this quote is pretty much what I said >> "Some of the meteorites are sold to collectors, Garcia >> said. Some also trade and barter for >> pieces." I don't know why that is bad >> or inaccurate.... That is what we do..... >> Right? >> >> She pressed me on what they were worth and I said >> NOTHING. But I do understand what Steve said and I agree >> with him.... What else could he have said when >> pressed? >> >> Oh ya, We did not call the press! We only called York >> water to get a look at the camera. She (the reporter) called >> York water also to look at their camera. Jeff from York told >> her when we would be there as he didn't have time to >> entertain her, then Steve, then us- so he did it all at >> once... >> >> Since I can't respond to the entire list can you >> or Darrin please post this? >> >> Ruben Garcia >> Phoenix, Arizona >> My Website: http://www.Mr-Meteorite.Net >> My Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ >> My Videos: >> http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=meteorfright&p=v >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: >> drtanuki >> To: >> cynapse at charter.net; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Sent: >> Wednesday, July 8, 2009 10:03:34 PM >> Subject: Re: >> [meteorite-list] - "witness" to July 6 Fireball >> PA >> >> >> Dear Darren and List, >> >> Darren wrote: "(And the >>> makings of another circus, with all the press)": >> >> Circus indeed with a title of "Meteorite hunters >> looking for treasure in York County". Treasure >> hunters again!!!...this leaves a bad taste in one`s mouth >> for people in meteorites! When will the >> "meteorite hunters" get the advertisement of >> "treasure hunting" and act professional or at >> least correct the press before it goes to print? >> >> Great quotes!... >> >> ".... Garcia said. For example, a fossil might be >> found inside. >> >> Some of the meteorites are sold to collectors, Garcia said. >> Some also trade and barter for pieces. >> >> Meteorites are worth 5 cents a gram to $1,000 a gram, >> depending on how rare they are, Arnold said. >> >> Another Pirate show? >> >> >> Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo >> >> >> --- On Thu, 7/9/09, Darren Garrison >> wrote: >> >>> From: Darren Garrison >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] - "witness" to >> July 6 Fireball PA >>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 2:40 PM >>> Security camera video. (And the >>> makings of another circus, with >> all the press): >>> >>> http://ydr.inyork.com/ci_12790056 >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> >> >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From MeteorHntr at aol.com Thu Jul 9 03:37:36 2009 From: MeteorHntr at aol.com (MeteorHntr at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 03:37:36 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA Message-ID: Hey All, Just for everyone's information, I personally think that if at least two good video's can be found from two different locations, the intersection can be found where the MD-PA bolide extinguished. That should be the heart of the strewnfield. My primary purpose in going ahead and talking with the media today was to solicit people to check the recordings from the security cameras. There is a tiny widow of opportunity to get the media to cooperate when making such a request, then quickly all interest will be lost. If this ground was easy to search (not massive amount of green, trees, grass, weeds, crops, hills, rivers and such) it might be easy for a few people to search hundreds of square miles in a short period of time. This is a fall that will need to get the bulls eye identified real close or I am afraid it will be a lost cause. And I am not certain, but actually having some of the locals look, might not be a bad thing. If because of some media exposure, some people start looking down, it is a bad thing? A few thousand people taking a little time to check out the ground might do better than a couple dozen professional hunters could do in a few weeks time. Once the heart of the potential area can be ascertained, then at least there will be a shot that something might be found. There is always a risk when dealing with the media that things will be misconstrued, but object number one is to find where the meteorites are. Then, if and when that happens, we can worry about dealing with a land owner that might find one and thinks it is worth more than it really is. I would rather have a land owner look and find one and not want to sell it, than not to look and not to find it, especially if it might be the first one. I suppose when I was pressed I could have said "Meteorites are worth $1/g." But then I run the risk that someone will accuse me of trying to steal meteorites for too little. I could say "Meteorites are worth $100/g. then if someone find ones, and I only offer a fraction of that for it, then I am accused of over stating what they are worth. I could say "I don't know what meteorites are worth" and I would have looked like a fool, since as a "professional" I probably should know what meteorites are worth. I told both reporters that were there when I arrived tonight, that meteorites can be very cheap, as low as $0.05/g while ultra rare meteorites, like ones from the Moon, can be worth up around $1,000/g. Totally true statements. Somehow Reuben squirmed out of not answering that question. Good for him. I tried to qualify my statements when I made them, as I wanted to be honest. I am also keenly aware that fireball events like this have an opportunity to attract new collectors to the market. In fact, while it is possible no meteorites will be found here, I would bet some new collectors will be found. Being honest and letting people know that there is a real collectors market out there, I feel is a good thing. I intentionally stayed away from saying "I will pay $10,000 for the first pound recovered" or anything like that, and stayed on focus that I was looking for more footage from various areas to do the triangulation. I made no offer to buy any meteorites if someone else found them, just that I was on the hunt myself. I know I can't make everyone happy, but I am doing what I think I need to do to locate the strewnfield in this particular case. Steve Arnold of "Meteorite Men" **************Dell Studio XPS Desktop: Save up to $400 - Limited Time Offer (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222466512x1201463496/aol?redir=htt p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D3) From P.Davidson at nms.ac.uk Thu Jul 9 04:23:17 2009 From: P.Davidson at nms.ac.uk (Peter Davidson) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 09:23:17 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Message-ID: Mark, I would like to answer some of your allegations if I may and perhaps open a debate about where collected material goes. There seems to be a rather broad misconception about museums and their collections. Let me just start by saying that collectors have made an inestimable contribution to the furtherance of science. There is no disputing this. As science developed from the late 17th Century, collectors and explorers went out into the wide world to search for the unusual, exotic and unseen. Of course this material went to universities and museums, where else could it go? It was these fast developing institutions that were at the cutting edge of scientific research up to and beyond the Victorian Age. There were private collectors, but they were often former academics and almost certainly university educated. At their deaths, universities and museum were often the beneficiaries of their wills and many private collections came into public hands this way. It also has to be remembered that museum collections, including our own, were originally set-up as teaching collections. There was no real market place for geological specimens in the sense we know it today, so prices were lower - comparatively. The clientele, such as it was, was also largely middle- or upper-class and financially very well off. However, the notion that there is a "flow" of newly found material into museums is not entirely true. I do not work in an artefact-based department. It would therefore be unfair of me to comment to any great degree on their collecting policies. As I stated above, much of the material in museum drawers are donated/bequeathed objects or collections acquired by purchase. In any collection, there is a variable proportion of material that can be described as "contextless" or "difficult". But what may at the time be considered of lesser value may after subsequent research prove to be of greater value. It is on that basis museums often appear to hoard excess material. It is also often the case that once material is registered, it is very difficult and, I would personally add undesirable, to sell-off this material. If this material is contextless, then it can surely have no value in the market place anyway. Would you buy a shapeless lump of rock or pottery whose only provenance is "found in museum drawer"? On the scientific side, the "value" of an object can be viewed differently. As a mineralogist, as well as the obvious aesthetic qualities of some objects, there is also the scientific value. Some of the rarest and most "precious" of our objects are (to an aesthete) uninspiring and dull. Yet to a mineralogist, they may be the finest examples of a mineral species in the World. As for a never-ending flow of objects disappearing into museum collections. Let me assure you that if this is happening, then it is being done by elves at night when there are no museum staff around. As far as owning the objects. Well in that sense the museums doesn't own the specimens. The people of Scotland own them, all five million of us, and they are available for viewing either in galleries, online or by appointment for free. You only have to ask. Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals National Museums Collection Centre National Museums Scotland 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Phone: +44 131 247 4283 p.davidson at nms.ac.uk www.nms.ac.uk -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Mark Ford Sent: 08 July 2009 16:01 To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Also we should never underestimate the contribution made to science by collectors! This is particularly true of meteorites, if no-one collected them, and created the resources needed for hunting them, our museum draws would actually be much emptier I suspect - Yes the market price would (arguably) be a little bit lower but how exactly does that help find more meteorites?? Imho, one of the reasons the market prices keep going up (particularly with historic artifacts) is newly found stuff simply flows in one direction into museum collections and archives. further limiting the market availability, this will only get worse if the supply of material to collectors gets even further choked off, by stupid blanket laws - for example if museums where allowed to trade and sell off some of the artifacts that are not needed then the market value would drop to sensible levels. (Ironically, there are countless thousands of useless orphaned contextless artifacts, that can serve no useful purpose sitting in museum draws all over the world, some are probably worth a small fortune on the open market - surely we should consider using some of this to fund much more important work, before we target private collectors). I believe we actually all have a personal responsibility to only keep and collect what we actually need to collect, museums included, that way everyone gets the chance to own these treasures without needing a mortgage, After all there is only so much to go round. Mark -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Peter Davidson Sent: 08 July 2009 12:02 To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies This is my first posting on this list - please be gentle with me. I have only been on the list a matter of a week or so and I seemed to have walked into a veritable storm. I would like to share my views with you as a curator. Please forgive this rather long mail. Taking a posting from Martin Altmann dated 7th July as my starting point, here goes. I have never heard a law being described as "exotic". Do you mean idiotic? I can in no way speak on behalf of all curators, far less Australian ones. I can only give you my own viewpoint but I do know many curators from Australia, mostly mineralogists, and please believe me when I tell you they are fine people and not the narrow-minded, nationalistic people hinted at in a number of e-mails. I also noted that Martin Altmann stated that everybody on the list was a "lousy layman" which is not only patently untrue but just a little sexist. But I digress. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us. Email info at ssl.gb.com. You should not copy or use this email or attachment(s) for any purpose nor disclose their contents to any other person. GENERAL STATEMENT: Southern Scientific Ltd's computer systems may be monitored and communications carried on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other lawful purposes. Registered address Rectory Farm Rd, Sompting, Lancing, W Sussex BN15 0DP. Company No 1800317 ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Garden Detectives. Unearthing nature?s little secrets. 26 Jun ? 27 Sep. Admission free: www.nms.ac.uk/garden National Museums Scotland, Scottish Charity, No. SC 011130 This communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the addressee please inform the sender and delete the email from your system. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of National Museums Scotland. This message is subject to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. No liability is accepted for any harm that may be caused to your systems or data by this message. From mark.ford at ssl.gb.com Thu Jul 9 05:36:25 2009 From: mark.ford at ssl.gb.com (Mark Ford) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 10:36:25 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29A9DB45B84970458190D7D39BD42C4967B22B@gamma.ssl.atw> Hi Peter, I understand your point, and I agree with what you are saying entirely, and I am obviously not advocating a great sell off of important museum items (that would be tragic), but is it not the case that pretty much all new material recovered from archeological digs is kept and stored? - (granted perhaps not always specifically in museums, as there are many groups involved with artifact retrieval), but it just seems a shame to me, that however well meaning, to me so much material is still 'seemingly' locked beyond (easy) public access, as there is only a very very small amount of public display space at the end of the day (this is the route by which 99.999% of the public have access to material). You curators do a truly wonderful job, and are always very keen to allow access, no question of that. I think the problem is probably one of public education and perception, most of the public have no idea if their local museum would let them route around in their collections, and most have no way of knowing what is even in their local collections. If they could sort the inevitable security problems out, I'd love to see meteorites and other items on display around places like the London underground, or at my local supermarket, or in my local high street.. why not? Best, Mark -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Peter Davidson Sent: 09 July 2009 09:23 To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Mark, I would like to answer some of your allegations if I may and perhaps open a debate about where collected material goes. There seems to be a rather broad misconception about museums and their collections. Let me just start by saying that collectors have made an inestimable contribution to the furtherance of science. There is no disputing this. As science developed from the late 17th Century, collectors and explorers went out into the wide world to search for the unusual, exotic and unseen. Of course this material went to universities and museums, where else could it go? It was these fast developing institutions that were at the cutting edge of scientific research up to and beyond the Victorian Age. There were private collectors, but they were often former academics and almost certainly university educated. At their deaths, universities and museum were often the beneficiaries of their wills and many private collections came into public hands this way. It also has to be remembered that museum collections, including our own, were originally set-up as teaching collections. There was no real market place for geological specimens in the sense we know it today, so prices were lower - comparatively. The clientele, such as it was, was also largely middle- or upper-class and financially very well off. However, the notion that there is a "flow" of newly found material into museums is not entirely true. I do not work in an artefact-based department. It would therefore be unfair of me to comment to any great degree on their collecting policies. As I stated above, much of the material in museum drawers are donated/bequeathed objects or collections acquired by purchase. In any collection, there is a variable proportion of material that can be described as "contextless" or "difficult". But what may at the time be considered of lesser value may after subsequent research prove to be of greater value. It is on that basis museums often appear to hoard excess material. It is also often the case that once material is registered, it is very difficult and, I would personally add undesirable, to sell-off this material. If this material is contextless, then it can surely have no value in the market place anyway. Would you buy a shapeless lump of rock or pottery whose only provenance is "found in museum drawer"? On the scientific side, the "value" of an object can be viewed differently. As a mineralogist, as well as the obvious aesthetic qualities of some objects, there is also the scientific value. Some of the rarest and most "precious" of our objects are (to an aesthete) uninspiring and dull. Yet to a mineralogist, they may be the finest examples of a mineral species in the World. As for a never-ending flow of objects disappearing into museum collections. Let me assure you that if this is happening, then it is being done by elves at night when there are no museum staff around. As far as owning the objects. Well in that sense the museums doesn't own the specimens. The people of Scotland own them, all five million of us, and they are available for viewing either in galleries, online or by appointment for free. You only have to ask. Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals National Museums Collection Centre National Museums Scotland 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Phone: +44 131 247 4283 p.davidson at nms.ac.uk www.nms.ac.uk -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Mark Ford Sent: 08 July 2009 16:01 To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Also we should never underestimate the contribution made to science by collectors! This is particularly true of meteorites, if no-one collected them, and created the resources needed for hunting them, our museum draws would actually be much emptier I suspect - Yes the market price would (arguably) be a little bit lower but how exactly does that help find more meteorites?? Imho, one of the reasons the market prices keep going up (particularly with historic artifacts) is newly found stuff simply flows in one direction into museum collections and archives. further limiting the market availability, this will only get worse if the supply of material to collectors gets even further choked off, by stupid blanket laws - for example if museums where allowed to trade and sell off some of the artifacts that are not needed then the market value would drop to sensible levels. (Ironically, there are countless thousands of useless orphaned contextless artifacts, that can serve no useful purpose sitting in museum draws all over the world, some are probably worth a small fortune on the open market - surely we should consider using some of this to fund much more important work, before we target private collectors). I believe we actually all have a personal responsibility to only keep and collect what we actually need to collect, museums included, that way everyone gets the chance to own these treasures without needing a mortgage, After all there is only so much to go round. Mark -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Peter Davidson Sent: 08 July 2009 12:02 To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies This is my first posting on this list - please be gentle with me. I have only been on the list a matter of a week or so and I seemed to have walked into a veritable storm. I would like to share my views with you as a curator. Please forgive this rather long mail. Taking a posting from Martin Altmann dated 7th July as my starting point, here goes. I have never heard a law being described as "exotic". Do you mean idiotic? I can in no way speak on behalf of all curators, far less Australian ones. I can only give you my own viewpoint but I do know many curators from Australia, mostly mineralogists, and please believe me when I tell you they are fine people and not the narrow-minded, nationalistic people hinted at in a number of e-mails. I also noted that Martin Altmann stated that everybody on the list was a "lousy layman" which is not only patently untrue but just a little sexist. But I digress. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us. Email info at ssl.gb.com. You should not copy or use this email or attachment(s) for any purpose nor disclose their contents to any other person. GENERAL STATEMENT: Southern Scientific Ltd's computer systems may be monitored and communications carried on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other lawful purposes. Registered address Rectory Farm Rd, Sompting, Lancing, W Sussex BN15 0DP. Company No 1800317 ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Garden Detectives. Unearthing nature's little secrets. 26 Jun - 27 Sep. Admission free: www.nms.ac.uk/garden National Museums Scotland, Scottish Charity, No. SC 011130 This communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the addressee please inform the sender and delete the email from your system. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of National Museums Scotland. This message is subject to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. No liability is accepted for any harm that may be caused to your systems or data by this message. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us. Email info at ssl.gb.com. You should not copy or use this email or attachment(s) for any purpose nor disclose their contents to any other person. GENERAL STATEMENT: Southern Scientific Ltd's computer systems may be monitored and communications carried on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other lawful purposes. Registered address Rectory Farm Rd, Sompting, Lancing, W Sussex BN15 0DP. Company No 1800317 From drtanuki at yahoo.com Thu Jul 9 05:46:08 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 02:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA Message-ID: <683235.18986.qm@web53106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Steve, Thank you for your, Ruben`s and other`s efforts in searching for the Penn. meteorite! Regarding what a meteorite is worth.... it is worth what you or someone is willing to pay, so I suggest that you re-phrase the question to the reporter when asked, and reply that "I am willing to pay up to... (or a realistic price) range". No dealer is likely to pay $1000/gr in the field for any fall unless it is extremely extremely rare and even then highly unlikely, as you should know. Setting unrealistic prices in the news creates unrealistic expectations. Maybe preparing in advance a "press release" for the press is important for reducing incorrect quotes? Beyond the above, I have no comments. Best in your and others successful hunt! Dirk Ross...Tokyo --- On Thu, 7/9/09, MeteorHntr at aol.com wrote: > From: MeteorHntr at aol.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA > To: drtanuki at yahoo.com, cynapse at charter.net, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 2:12 PM > Dirk, > > Yea, it is hard to answer the question: "What are > meteorites? worth?"? > Personally I don't like to lie to people and say they are > not? worth anything.??? > > Especially when a simple search on ebay will? show > that meteorites are > indeed worth from around 5 cents a gram up to $1,000 > a? gram.? > > When the reporters pressed me how much these would be > worth,? I refused to > give a number. I told them I didn't know, and there were > too many? factors > that would determine what they are worth. So I guess they > went with the? > simple shorter quote. > > I am not sure what you mean by "Anther Pirate? > show?"? Would you expound? > > Steve Arnold > > > > In a message dated 7/9/2009 12:03:44 A.M. Central Daylight > Time,? > drtanuki at yahoo.com > writes: > Meteorites are worth 5 cents a gram to $1,000 a? gram, > depending on how > rare they are, Arnold said. > > Another Pirate? show? > > **************Dell Studio XPS Desktop: Save up to $400 - > Limited Time Offer > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222466512x1201463496/aol?redir=htt > p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D3) > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com Thu Jul 9 06:38:55 2009 From: SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com (SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 06:38:55 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - July 9, 2009 Message-ID: http://www.rocksfromspace.org/July_9_2009.html __________________________ **************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003) From P.Davidson at nms.ac.uk Thu Jul 9 07:23:16 2009 From: P.Davidson at nms.ac.uk (Peter Davidson) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 12:23:16 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Message-ID: Mike Thanks for the welcome. I am beginning to feel a little punch-drunk! As a married father (2 teenage daughters) I fully understand what you are saying. Unfortunately, I don't know where you live so I cannot give you any specific advice on who to contact. Certainly trawl through the net to see of there is a museum with a mineral/meteorite collection close to you. Most museums have a web page and will give you an opportunity to contact them. Depending on the museum, they may, or may not have someone on the staff to answer your question or enquiry. If not they may refer you to a larger institution. If your local museum has a collection, but no curator, why not investigate the possibility of undertaking voluntary work? All museums, even national institutions, rely to a greater or lesser degree on the dedicated work volunteers put in. If you feel you have knowledge and/or expertise that the museum could benefit by, why not give it a go. The rules that govern the exchange of material depends on the institution and the material available. I can confirm that we have no meteorite material that we can use for exchange, but we do have some minerals that are available. But the possibility for exchange can vary between museums and between countries. You would need to check this out. Certainly a posting on a list such as meteorite-list might help to alert people. Finally, I agree wholeheartedly that it can only be of benefit to everyone if there is open and honest discussion between museums/curators and collectors/dealers. In my experience, most people are more than happy to co-operate. But there is a widespread misconception about public bodies and this is often hard to dispel. Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals National Museums Collection Centre National Museums Scotland 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Phone: +44 131 247 4283 p.davidson at nms.ac.uk www.nms.ac.uk -----Original Message----- From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks [mailto:meteoritemike at gmail.com] Sent: 08 July 2009 17:05 To: Peter Davidson Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Hi Peter, Welcome to the List. :) I do not speak for the list or a majority on it, so take my reply with the appropriate grain (or block) of salt. ;) I am an avid collector of meteorites and minerals (primarily meteorites), and I am also a happily married man. I mention the fact that I am married because there are parallels between the position of the married collector and the curator. I too operate within a strict budget and a set of rules that governs my ability to acquire and trade specimens. I do not mean to make light of the matter, but simply to say that I understand the necessity of balancing budget concerns and working within a framework of acceptable trading practices. Some wealthier collectors don't have this concern or it manifests to a lesser degree in their collecting. I want to thank you for taking the time to speak up and share your views on this issue as it effects the meteorite world. Speaking strictly as a collector, I would have little idea how to contact a museum or curator to begin establishing a working relationship that could include the exchange of specimens. The bigger and more established dealers are not going to broadcast their methods and connections to the rest of the world, so the next generation of major collectors is left in a position of ignorance regarding how to conduct business with museums and institutions. We either figure it out ourselves through trial and error, or we rely on the bigger and better-connected dealers to trade with the museums and then wait for the specimens to trickle down through the open marketplace. For example, how does a private collector approach a curator to open a dialogue? Does one just Google the museum and get a street address, phone number, or email address? And then contact the curator directly? Many private collectors think such direct contact would be frowned upon because the private collector may not have any official credentials - academic or otherwise. We would not want to waste the curator's time or make trouble for the museum staff. Also, I don't have any idea what kind of rules govern the trade between private individuals and museums/institutions. For example, I have a list of trading partners I have cultivated during my time of collecting. We often exchange specimens and the method involves the "honor system". If I say to my private trading partner - "I really like your slice of Barwell L5 chondrite, would you accept this fragment of Wold Cottage in trade for it?" - and if the deal is agreed upon, we simply pack up the specimen and mail it to the other party. There is no escrow or legal contacts involved - simply a gentleman's agreement that each person will live up to their end of the bargain. At any point, one person could fail to live up to their part and steal the other party's specimen - it's a risk of trading in this manner. (although it has never happened to me in countless trades) As a private collector, I would assume that museums and institutions that use public funds cannot conduct business in such a manner as private parties do. Surely there must be a vetting process of some kind to determine the reliability of the private part, paperwork, etc. Such stipulations, real or imagined, deter me from trying from conducting trades with museums, universities, and the like. I am one of those collectors who would love to see greater networking and cooperation between every member of the meteorite community - layperson and professional. But I am also one of those collectors who has little idea how to go about doing it. Perhaps this List is the perfect place to start. :) Best regards, MikeG On 7/8/09, Peter Davidson wrote: > This is my first posting on this list - please be gentle with me. I have > only been on the list a matter of a week or so and I seemed to have walked > into a veritable storm. I would like to share my views with you as a > curator. Please forgive this rather long mail. > > > > Taking a posting from Martin Altmann dated 7th July as my starting point, > here goes. > > > > I have never heard a law being described as "exotic". Do you mean idiotic? > > > > I can in no way speak on behalf of all curators, far less Australian ones. I > can only give you my own viewpoint but I do know many curators from > Australia, mostly mineralogists, and please believe me when I tell you they > are fine people and not the narrow-minded, nationalistic people hinted at in > a number of e-mails. I also noted that Martin Altmann stated that everybody > on the list was a "lousy layman" which is not only patently untrue but just > a little sexist. But I digress. > > > > Curators are every bit as dedicated to their collections as private > collectors are. We are not faceless bureaucrats (or similar) existing in > some Kafkaesque nightmare world hidebound by rules, and seeking to restrict > everyone else by creating a spider's web of red tape to trap the unwary. > That notion is as ridiculous to me as the presumption that all dealers > (minerals or meteorites) are shady and unscrupulous. As a curator at a > National Museum, I am obligated by law (yes, I know!) to preserve and > protect the collections of the museum and by extension, the nation. I choose > to do this. I work in the museum because I want to. Every curator I have met > shares with me a love of the specimens that they curate. We also share a > passionate believe that it is our duty to bring our collections to the > notice and attention of the public, and to make them available to > researchers and other curators. Believe me when I tell you that museum > curators/conservators are not well paid. We do it for love - well mostly. > When I joined the museum in 1975, I also had to undertake never to start and > build up my own collection. The collections of the museum ARE my > collections. > > > > I also feel that Martin overstates the influence scientist have at > governmental level. Yes, some scientists are asked to advise on certain > matters, but in the end it is the politician that decides. My observations > of this hated group, politicians that is, leads me to surmise that if some > short term political advantage can be gained by appealing to the masses, fed > to satedness by a largely right-wing populist press (the tabloids in the > UK), then they will always take that course of action, no matter what the > consequences are. This very often goes against the advice of > scientists/curators and negates many decades of good interaction between the > public and private sectors. As I mineralogist, I am painfully aware that the > market for display quality specimens has now passed beyond the reach of > publicly-funded museums. The meteorite market is no different. > > > > Nonetheless, as a curator at a National Museum, and I hope you can > understand this point of view, there is a duty to collect for the Nation > everything we can in order that we can research, interpret and explain to > the people of Scotland, its historical, sociological, artistic and > scientific heritage. The question raised by many contributors to the list > is: should meteorites fall into that category? Clearly the Australian > Government thought so, and so did the UK Government in the 1960's when > legislation was introduced to Parliament but never passed into law. > > > > We already do our utmost to protect other geological sites. This policy is > well intentioned and it can be argued that "fixed" geological outcrops, > either mineralogical or palaeontological are a finite resource. If > unscrupulous collectors plunder the site and remove all the material, then > it is lost forever. Meteorites are different in that they are not "fixed" > but are random in the sense that they can fall at any time, in any place. > However, from my point of view as a curator, ought I to have the desire to > possess in the National Collection, a sample of each of the four Scottish > falls? I do have that desire and the fact that the museum doesn't possess > all Scottish meteorites leads to a feeling of both consternation and > frustration. But it is a situation I accept > > > > Why don't you go and collect them yourself I hear you asking. Well, the > short answer is - we would love to. We do go on collecting trips, but these > are limited by budgetary constraints primarily, but also by the general > workload faced by all curators. This is why we have tried to build a network > of private collectors across the country that will work with is to the > benefit of both parties. But the inescapable fact is that the market in > geological specimens has moved onto a level which museums find it difficult > to operate in. We rely to a large extent on donations or possibly exchange. > Private collectors know that they can sell their specimens on the open > market and receive a much better price than a museum can offer. > > > > I was heartened to hear that some private collectors and dealers are in > favour of a greater collaboration with scientists and museums. All of us who > love meteorites need to continue to work closely. We require the raw > material to undertake research, and this gets fed back to the public through > our publications. Scientists do find new information in old specimens; we > would not be scientists if we did not constantly search for new data. But I > would just like to finish with this thought. Many young people are familiar > with meteorites through the media and the internet, but for many, the only > opportunity they get to see and touch them is through museums and their > curators. Many indeed of the list members may have been inspired to go and > collect by seeing meteorites in a museum. > > > > Martin. Please do not take this as a personal attack. I find your e-mails > well agued and thoughtful. Indeed it was your email that inspired me to pen > this message. I have spoken about this in other lists, in other places. The > meteorites will continue to fall, long after we are all gone. There should > be enough for everyone. > > > > Don't forget us! > > > > All donations gratefully accepted. > > Peter Davidson > Curator of Minerals > > National Museums Collection Centre > National Museums Scotland > 242 West Granton Road > Edinburgh > EH5 1JA > Phone: +44 131 247 4283 > p.davidson at nms.ac.uk > www.nms.ac.uk > > > > > Garden Detectives. Unearthing nature's little secrets. 26 Jun - 27 Sep. > Admission free: www.nms.ac.uk/garden > > National Museums Scotland, Scottish Charity, No. SC 011130 > > This communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the > addressee please inform the sender and delete the email from your system. > The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the > author and do not necessarily reflect those of National Museums Scotland. > This message is subject to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of > Information (Scotland) Act 2002. No liability is accepted for any harm that > may be caused to your systems or data by this message. > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com .......................................................... Garden Detectives. Unearthing nature?s little secrets. 26 Jun ? 27 Sep. Admission free: www.nms.ac.uk/garden National Museums Scotland, Scottish Charity, No. SC 011130 This communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the addressee please inform the sender and delete the email from your system. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of National Museums Scotland. This message is subject to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. No liability is accepted for any harm that may be caused to your systems or data by this message. From P.Davidson at nms.ac.uk Thu Jul 9 07:41:17 2009 From: P.Davidson at nms.ac.uk (Peter Davidson) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 12:41:17 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Message-ID: James Thanks for the welcome and for the message of support. In list such as this, it is often difficult to get a balanced view because there are obviously many, many more collectors and dealers than there are curators. But that does not mean our voices should not be heard. I agree that I did not answer some of Martin's points, and in particular his analysis of the Australian and American finds. Using the data that Martin gives in his email, it is clear that there is a clear correlation between the increase in the number of finds coming onto the market and the imposition of the restrictive law. This is a perfectly valid argument. I did not raise any counter-argument because I accept the figures are true and I therefore cannot dispute these with a different set of figures that show a different position. This situation exists in many areas of life and is no less true of the mineral market, than it is of the meteorite market. The price of minerals or meteorites is rising all the time, and as prices rise, so the number of collectors and dealers that are active rises. The result is a steep rise in the material coming onto the market. This is fine as long as the market can support this situation, but as everyone knows, the property market upon which our banks build up their empires eventually collapsed and thus we have arrived at the current financial crisis (simplistic I know). Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals National Museums Collection Centre National Museums Scotland 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Phone: +44 131 247 4283 p.davidson at nms.ac.uk www.nms.ac.uk -----Original Message----- From: James Baxter [mailto:jbaxter112 at pol.net] Sent: 08 July 2009 17:09 To: Peter Davidson Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Hello Peter, Welcome to the list. Thanks for your contribution. It is nice to get a curator's perspective. I'm sure most if not all list members are envious of your job and support your work. I do feel you have not answered Martin's central argument that if laws prohibiting export were not in place your Australian colleagues would have far more material to study through dealer and collector contributions and trades. As a humble private collector I like to think I am supporting (or at least not depriving) the public institutions' collections. I know many of the dealers I support with my purchases have donated or traded large amounts of material to public institutions. This may be simple rationalization, but I do feel Martin's numbers regarding finds in the US compared to Australia imply that we collectors are likely increasing rather than decreasing the amount of material available to these institutions. I would love to hear your thoughts about whether you feel this argument is valid. Best Wishes, Jim Baxter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Davidson" To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2009 4:02:08 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies This is my first posting on this list - please be gentle with me. I have only been on the list a matter of a week or so and I seemed to have walked into a veritable storm. I would like to share my views with you as a curator. Please forgive this rather long mail. Taking a posting from Martin Altmann dated 7th July as my starting point, here goes. I have never heard a law being described as "exotic". Do you mean idiotic? I can in no way speak on behalf of all curators, far less Australian ones. I can only give you my own viewpoint but I do know many curators from Australia, mostly mineralogists, and please believe me when I tell you they are fine people and not the narrow-minded, nationalistic people hinted at in a number of e-mails. I also noted that Martin Altmann stated that everybody on the list was a "lousy layman" which is not only patently untrue but just a little sexist. But I digress. Curators are every bit as dedicated to their collections as private collectors are. We are not faceless bureaucrats (or similar) existing in some Kafkaesque nightmare world hidebound by rules, and seeking to restrict everyone else by creating a spider's web of red tape to trap the unwary. That notion is as ridiculous to me as the presumption that all dealers (minerals or meteorites) are shady and unscrupulous. As a curator at a National Museum, I am obligated by law (yes, I know!) to preserve and protect the collections of the museum and by extension, the nation. I choose to do this. I work in the museum because I want to. Every curator I have met shares with me a love of the specimens that they curate. We also share a passionate believe that it is our duty to bring our collections to the notice and attention of the public, and to make them available to researchers and other curators. Believe me when I tell you that museum curators/conservators are not well paid. We do it for love - well mostly. When I joined the museum in 1975, I also had to undertake never to start and build up my own collection. The collections of the museum ARE my collections. I also feel that Martin overstates the influence scientist have at governmental level. Yes, some scientists are asked to advise on certain matters, but in the end it is the politician that decides. My observations of this hated group, politicians that is, leads me to surmise that if some short term political advantage can be gained by appealing to the masses, fed to satedness by a largely right-wing populist press (the tabloids in the UK), then they will always take that course of action, no matter what the consequences are. This very often goes against the advice of scientists/curators and negates many decades of good interaction between the public and private sectors. As I mineralogist, I am painfully aware that the market for display quality specimens has now passed beyond the reach of publicly-funded museums. The meteorite market is no different. Nonetheless, as a curator at a National Museum, and I hope you can understand this point of view, there is a duty to collect for the Nation everything we can in order that we can research, interpret and explain to the people of Scotland, its historical, sociological, artistic and scientific heritage. The question raised by many contributors to the list is: should meteorites fall into that category? Clearly the Australian Government thought so, and so did the UK Government in the 1960's when legislation was introduced to Parliament but never passed into law. We already do our utmost to protect other geological sites. This policy is well intentioned and it can be argued that "fixed" geological outcrops, either mineralogical or palaeontological are a finite resource. If unscrupulous collectors plunder the site and remove all the material, then it is lost forever. Meteorites are different in that they are not "fixed" but are random in the sense that they can fall at any time, in any place. However, from my point of view as a curator, ought I to have the desire to possess in the National Collection, a sample of each of the four Scottish falls? I do have that desire and the fact that the museum doesn't possess all Scottish meteorites leads to a feeling of both consternation and frustration. But it is a situation I accept Why don't you go and collect them yourself I hear you asking. Well, the short answer is - we would love to. We do go on collecting trips, but these are limited by budgetary constraints primarily, but also by the general workload faced by all curators. This is why we have tried to build a network of private collectors across the country that will work with is to the benefit of both parties. But the inescapable fact is that the market in geological specimens has moved onto a level which museums find it difficult to operate in. We rely to a large extent on donations or possibly exchange. Private collectors know that they can sell their specimens on the open market and receive a much better price than a museum can offer. I was heartened to hear that some private collectors and dealers are in favour of a greater collaboration with scientists and museums. All of us who love meteorites need to continue to work closely. We require the raw material to undertake research, and this gets fed back to the public through our publications. Scientists do find new information in old specimens; we would not be scientists if we did not constantly search for new data. But I would just like to finish with this thought. Many young people are familiar with meteorites through the media and the internet, but for many, the only opportunity they get to see and touch them is through museums and their curators. Many indeed of the list members may have been inspired to go and collect by seeing meteorites in a museum. Martin. Please do not take this as a personal attack. I find your e-mails well agued and thoughtful. Indeed it was your email that inspired me to pen this message. I have spoken about this in other lists, in other places. The meteorites will continue to fall, long after we are all gone. There should be enough for everyone. Don't forget us! All donations gratefully accepted. Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals ? National Museums Collection Centre National Museums Scotland 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Phone: +44?131 247 4283 p.davidson at nms.ac.uk www.nms.ac.uk ? ? Garden Detectives. Unearthing nature's little secrets. 26 Jun - 27 Sep. Admission free: www.nms.ac.uk/garden National Museums Scotland, Scottish Charity, No. SC 011130 This communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the addressee please inform the sender and delete the email from your system. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of National Museums Scotland. This message is subject to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. No liability is accepted for any harm that may be caused to your systems or data by this message. ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Garden Detectives. Unearthing nature?s little secrets. 26 Jun ? 27 Sep. Admission free: www.nms.ac.uk/garden National Museums Scotland, Scottish Charity, No. SC 011130 This communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the addressee please inform the sender and delete the email from your system. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of National Museums Scotland. This message is subject to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. No liability is accepted for any harm that may be caused to your systems or data by this message. From scyphocrinites at yahoo.com Thu Jul 9 08:44:56 2009 From: scyphocrinites at yahoo.com (Malek Youssef) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 05:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Ad : Cheap 6300 gr lot of Ordinary Chondrites Message-ID: <940524.25090.qm@web53308.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi All I am offering a Lot of 6300 gr Ordinary Chondrites for cheap price , if interested , feel free to contact me to provide photos. Best Regards M.Youssef From MeteorHntr at aol.com Thu Jul 9 09:23:09 2009 From: MeteorHntr at aol.com (MeteorHntr at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 09:23:09 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA Message-ID: In a message dated 7/9/2009 4:46:27 A.M. Central Daylight Time, drtanuki at yahoo.com writes: Regarding what a meteorite is worth.... it is worth what you or someone is willing to pay, so I suggest that you re-phrase the question to the reporter when asked, and reply that "I am willing to pay up to... (or a realistic price) range". Dirk, The problem is that I am not willing to pay anything for a meteorite, at least not now. I didn't come here to buy a meteorite. And as such, I didn't talk to the media about buying one. I was asking for people to check their video and to come forward if they had any footage with the fireball. The reporters didn't ask me what I was willing to pay. They asked me somewhere in the context of "All this effort,spent time and money, to come up here and do all this work, are meteorites worth it?" Which I answered with the normal response of how they can be valuable to science, bla, bla, bla, and that museums and researchers and private collectors are interested, bla, bla, bla. And then I was asked "Well, what are meteorites worth?" And, even if I was wanting to buy a meteorite, I still would not quote a price, because I don't give quotes for purchase when I don't know how big it is, what condition it is in, or the supply and demand factors involved at the moment of making the offer. All that can change, and about the only thing certain, is that when the time might come to make a real offer on a real meteorite, I would most likely be willing to pay more or less, maybe far more or far less than any quote I would give back in the hypothetical stage. Again, the question to me wasn't what I was willing to pay, but what meteorites are worth. Now, I have some work to do, and some rocks to go find. Have a nice day. Steve Arnold of "Meteorite Men" **************Dell Studio XPS Desktop: Save up to $400 - Limited Time Offer (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222466512x1201463496/aol?redir=htt p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D3) From P.Davidson at nms.ac.uk Thu Jul 9 09:27:13 2009 From: P.Davidson at nms.ac.uk (Peter Davidson) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 14:27:13 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Message-ID: Martin Thanks you for your contribution. I am glad you agree with me on all of the points. Please don't worry about the language. I speak German, but I know that I also fail to pick up on the various nuances and differences in every speech. This is because I have very little opportunity to use it on a day-to-day basis. I am glad you accept that a museum, especially a National Museum, has an obligation placed upon it by the Government of that country to continually enhance the collections for the benefit of all the people and to make these collections available to everyone by whatever means possible. Within the museum, every department has a different policy for collecting. In the geological departments, it is our policy to continue to build up as comprehensive a collection of Scottish material (minerals and fossils) as we possibly can so that we can provide material for research and exhibitions. This includes loans to other researchers and museums. The meteorite collection does not have a policy at present. This is because I have only taken over the collection - I am a mineralogist - in the last few years and I have not had time to formulate a new policy. It would be impossible to try and acquire Scottish meteorites. The vast majority of available material is already in museum collections either in Scotland or London. This mitigates against enacting legislation about collecting meteorites as there is simply no material to collect - that we know about. We are left with looking at the collection and seeing where any significant gaps lie in terms of meteorite types and seeking to fill those gaps. The possibility of new falls cannot be discounted. This is, I believe, where difficulties may lie. As far as minerals are concerned, while we continue to examine the classic localities for new material, we also rely on a network of private collectors who keep us informed about new occurrences in their areas. This works well as we can provide analytical services to them, in return for some donations. This also alerts us to new localities which we might try and visit ourselves. Meteorites are a different matter. They are much more random and can fall anywhere at any time. The law protects important mineral and fossil sites, but meteorites have no legal status. I would hope that if a fall is spotted, someone can contact me and I will try and get to the site. I don't want to set up a deliberate conflict between private collectors and public bodies. I also think that a legally binding system of restricting the collecting and exportation of meteorites would be unproductive and unworkable. It is like the "war" on drug abuse. The arguments about legalising drug use is centred in the desire of authorities to keep it visible and therefore controllable but incurring huge public health bills to deal with users, or to ban drug use and drive it underground requiring huge police costs. Any restriction on collecting would have to have effective policing to work, and this is just not possible. I would favour a simple notification scheme whereby any fall is notified to the authorities and allows institutions such as museums and universities to opportunity to collect themselves. But this too relies on the honesty of people and with meteorite fetching such a high price, this leaves it open to abuse from unscrupulous collectors. Any system really needs to be discussed with all parties and a voluntary code set out, agreeable to all. We are not your enemies Best Wishes Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals National Museums Collection Centre National Museums Scotland 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Phone: +44 131 247 4283 p.davidson at nms.ac.uk www.nms.ac.uk -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Martin Altmann Sent: 08 July 2009 19:20 To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Hello Peter, Confrere, Finally a curator writing on the list to limn that complex from his angle, many thanks for that. Peter, if you read my postings, you will find, that I agree with all your points. (somewhere you read maybe something behind the lines, which in fact doesn't stand there, perhaps it's also because I can't express myself so nuanced in that foreign language, my fault). Well. Nobody on the list here and in the private meteorite sector casts the slightest doubts on the eligibility of national institutes to get parts of the finds and falls of their country into their collections. On contrary they all welcome that. The problems are different and unfortunately quite dramatic. To most of them I wrote a whole epic here on the list, Today I won't recapitulate that all, because today I'm ill. The main question is: What does the "official" side want. A) Do they want to have large quantities of rare meteorites and new recoveries? Hence more an objective target pointing in the direction of research, space exploration ect. B) Do they want to have saved their national heritage or however one could call it? That is a more historic and conservatorical approach. Subsequent question is: What for instruments do we have and shall we use to achieve the first goal or the second goal or even both. (and with the special regard, that many institutes don't have anymore the financial funds, which they had the 200 years before). The instruments urgently suggested or already working make the goals A) and B) to incompatible opposites. and as all data and statistics undisputedly demonstrate, these instruments counteract both goals. So we should get perhaps first clarity, what the "official" side wants. (btw. the division into private and official antagonists is, as often you can read it though, unhistoric and highly artificial). And then we have to think, whether we do want an improvement, a persistence on the status quo or a worsening. Most of my posts tended to avoid at least that the situation get's worse. For today, Martin PS. Mark, I have to profoundly disagree. The meteorite prices of the last 200 years, as well as the expenses of institutional collections are preserved and knownof today . They prove that meteorites never were so cheap than in this decade and that the meteorite prices on the commercial sector are - by far - the lowest in history. (which makes that not so Gordian situation especially bizarre). -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Peter Davidson Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. Juli 2009 13:02 An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies This is my first posting on this list - please be gentle with me. I have only been on the list a matter of a week or so and I seemed to have walked into a veritable storm. I would like to share my views with you as a curator. Please forgive this rather long mail. Taking a posting from Martin Altmann dated 7th July as my starting point, here goes. I have never heard a law being described as "exotic". Do you mean idiotic? I can in no way speak on behalf of all curators, far less Australian ones. I can only give you my own viewpoint but I do know many curators from Australia, mostly mineralogists, and please believe me when I tell you they are fine people and not the narrow-minded, nationalistic people hinted at in a number of e-mails. I also noted that Martin Altmann stated that everybody on the list was a "lousy layman" which is not only patently untrue but just a little sexist. But I digress. Curators are every bit as dedicated to their collections as private collectors are. We are not faceless bureaucrats (or similar) existing in some Kafkaesque nightmare world hidebound by rules, and seeking to restrict everyone else by creating a spider's web of red tape to trap the unwary. That notion is as ridiculous to me as the presumption that all dealers (minerals or meteorites) are shady and unscrupulous. As a curator at a National Museum, I am obligated by law (yes, I know!) to preserve and protect the collections of the museum and by extension, the nation. I choose to do this. I work in the museum because I want to. Every curator I have met shares with me a love of the specimens that they curate. We also share a passionate believe that it is our duty to bring our collections to the notice and attention of the public, and to make them available to researchers and other curators. Believe me when I tell you that museum curators/conservators are not well paid. We do it for love - well mostly. When I joined the museum in 1975, I also had to undertake never to start and build up my own collection. The collections of the museum ARE my collections. I also feel that Martin overstates the influence scientist have at governmental level. Yes, some scientists are asked to advise on certain matters, but in the end it is the politician that decides. My observations of this hated group, politicians that is, leads me to surmise that if some short term political advantage can be gained by appealing to the masses, fed to satedness by a largely right-wing populist press (the tabloids in the UK), then they will always take that course of action, no matter what the consequences are. This very often goes against the advice of scientists/curators and negates many decades of good interaction between the public and private sectors. As I mineralogist, I am painfully aware that the market for display quality specimens has now passed beyond the reach of publicly-funded museums. The meteorite market is no different. Nonetheless, as a curator at a National Museum, and I hope you can understand this point of view, there is a duty to collect for the Nation everything we can in order that we can research, interpret and explain to the people of Scotland, its historical, sociological, artistic and scientific heritage. The question raised by many contributors to the list is: should meteorites fall into that category? Clearly the Australian Government thought so, and so did the UK Government in the 1960's when legislation was introduced to Parliament but never passed into law. We already do our utmost to protect other geological sites. This policy is well intentioned and it can be argued that "fixed" geological outcrops, either mineralogical or palaeontological are a finite resource. If unscrupulous collectors plunder the site and remove all the material, then it is lost forever. Meteorites are different in that they are not "fixed" but are random in the sense that they can fall at any time, in any place. However, from my point of view as a curator, ought I to have the desire to possess in the National Collection, a sample of each of the four Scottish falls? I do have that desire and the fact that the museum doesn't possess all Scottish meteorites leads to a feeling of both consternation and frustration. But it is a situation I accept Why don't you go and collect them yourself I hear you asking. Well, the short answer is - we would love to. We do go on collecting trips, but these are limited by budgetary constraints primarily, but also by the general workload faced by all curators. This is why we have tried to build a network of private collectors across the country that will work with is to the benefit of both parties. But the inescapable fact is that the market in geological specimens has moved onto a level which museums find it difficult to operate in. We rely to a large extent on donations or possibly exchange. Private collectors know that they can sell their specimens on the open market and receive a much better price than a museum can offer. I was heartened to hear that some private collectors and dealers are in favour of a greater collaboration with scientists and museums. All of us who love meteorites need to continue to work closely. We require the raw material to undertake research, and this gets fed back to the public through our publications. Scientists do find new information in old specimens; we would not be scientists if we did not constantly search for new data. But I would just like to finish with this thought. Many young people are familiar with meteorites through the media and the internet, but for many, the only opportunity they get to see and touch them is through museums and their curators. Many indeed of the list members may have been inspired to go and collect by seeing meteorites in a museum. Martin. Please do not take this as a personal attack. I find your e-mails well agued and thoughtful. Indeed it was your email that inspired me to pen this message. I have spoken about this in other lists, in other places. The meteorites will continue to fall, long after we are all gone. There should be enough for everyone. Don't forget us! All donations gratefully accepted. Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals ? National Museums Collection Centre National Museums Scotland 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Phone: +44?131 247 4283 p.davidson at nms.ac.uk www.nms.ac.uk ? ? Garden Detectives. Unearthing nature's little secrets. 26 Jun - 27 Sep. Admission free: www.nms.ac.uk/garden National Museums Scotland, Scottish Charity, No. SC 011130 This communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the addressee please inform the sender and delete the email from your system. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of National Museums Scotland. This message is subject to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. No liability is accepted for any harm that may be caused to your systems or data by this message. ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Garden Detectives. Unearthing nature?s little secrets. 26 Jun ? 27 Sep. Admission free: www.nms.ac.uk/garden National Museums Scotland, Scottish Charity, No. SC 011130 This communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the addressee please inform the sender and delete the email from your system. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of National Museums Scotland. This message is subject to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. No liability is accepted for any harm that may be caused to your systems or data by this message. From drtanuki at yahoo.com Thu Jul 9 09:37:20 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 06:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA Message-ID: <498627.13647.qm@web53108.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Steve and List, Your answer points to the need of an advance-prepared press release so that reporters get their facts straight and so that there is less chance of a mis-quote. Reporters are infamous for making headlines and ignoring the facts. Good use of the reporter and news to get the word out for video evidence. Have a great day in your hunt! Best, Dirk Ross...Tokyo --- On Thu, 7/9/09, MeteorHntr at aol.com wrote: > From: MeteorHntr at aol.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA > To: drtanuki at yahoo.com, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 10:23 PM > In a message dated 7/9/2009 4:46:27 > A.M. Central? Daylight Time, > drtanuki at yahoo.com > writes: > Regarding what a meteorite is? worth.... it is worth > what you or someone is > willing to pay, so I suggest that? you re-phrase the > question to the > reporter when asked, and reply that "I am? willing to > pay up to... (or a realistic > price) range".??? > > Dirk, > > The problem is that I am not willing to pay anything for > a? meteorite, at > least not now. I didn't come here to buy a meteorite. And > as such,? I didn't > talk to the media about buying one.? I was asking for > people to? check their > video and to come forward if they had any footage with the > fireball.? > > The reporters didn't ask me what I was willing to > pay.? They asked? me > somewhere in the context of "All this effort,spent time and > money, to come up? > here and do all this work, are meteorites worth it?"? > Which I answered with? > the normal response of how they can be valuable to science, > bla, bla, bla, > and? that museums and researchers and private > collectors are interested, bla, > bla,? bla.? And then I was asked "Well, what are > meteorites worth?" > > And,? even if I was wanting to buy a meteorite, I > still would not quote a > price,? because I don't give quotes for purchase when > I don't know how big it > is, what? condition it is in, or the supply and demand > factors involved at > the moment of? making the offer.? All that can > change, and about the only > thing certain,? is that when the time might come to > make a real offer on a > real meteorite, I? would most likely be willing to pay > more or less, maybe far > more or far less? than any quote I would give back in > the hypothetical > stage.? ? > > Again, the question to me wasn't what I was willing to pay, > but what? > meteorites are worth.? > > Now, I have some work to do, and some rocks? to go > find. > > Have a nice day. > > Steve Arnold > of "Meteorite Men"? > > **************Dell Studio XPS Desktop: Save up to $400 - > Limited Time Offer > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222466512x1201463496/aol?redir=htt > p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D3) > From clp at alumni.caltech.edu Thu Jul 9 09:58:52 2009 From: clp at alumni.caltech.edu (Chris Peterson) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 07:58:52 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA References: Message-ID: <0E67FAE9E251408A9766AA3E9C74B4CE@bellatrix> A strewn field can be at any orientation with respect to the original meteor path, and can lie some miles from the terminal explosion location, depending on the height of the explosion and the winds. It is very difficult to determine where meteorites will land, even with accurate video records and good weather data (from a weather balloon). At best, you can narrow it down to a few tens of square miles. After that, it's back to the tried and true: interviewing people on the ground, and searching. Also, it shouldn't be overlooked that a large fireball, even with a terminal explosion, is very likely to produce no meteorites at all. Better camera data can help access the likelihood of that by helping to narrow down the entry angle and velocity. Chris ***************************************** Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 1:37 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA > Hey All, > > Just for everyone's information, I personally think that if at least two > good video's can be found from two different locations, the intersection > can > be found where the MD-PA bolide extinguished. That should be the heart > of > the strewnfield. From drtanuki at yahoo.com Thu Jul 9 09:59:34 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 06:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] PA Seismic Data files Message-ID: <428954.53913.qm@web53104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear List, I have the seismic data files for the Pennsylvania meteor event. Does anyone on this list have experience in using GSE2.1 files and SeisGram2K viewer? Thank you in advance. Please contact me off list. Dirk Ross...Tokyo From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Thu Jul 9 10:02:31 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 16:02:31 +0200 Subject: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002e01ca009d$f02a4d10$177f2a59@name86d88d87e2> Peter, please allow me, that I dare to disagree, at one point only. (haven't recovered yet). >At their deaths, >universities and museum were often the beneficiaries of their wills and >many private collections came into public hands this way. > There was no real market >place for geological specimens in the sense we know it today, so prices >were lower - comparatively. I come to a somewhat different result at least on the field of meteorites. Meteorites, not so surprising, were and are rare. Most of the largest institutional meteorite collections of the world, Acquired most of their meteorites from private persons. New falls anyway, cause in most cases no officer of the crown war at hand, when a meteorite decided to fall... no, more seriously, the collections grew and some started at all by the means of donations of private collections, but also more by the purchase of collections from private collectors and, not so surprisingly, by the purchase from museums/geological/ meteorite dealers! And they were regularly buying from meteorite dealers ever then. That some collections nowadays don't or can't buy meteorites anymore, is rather a very recent phenomenon. Only a few examples. Chicago Field - they started with meteorites, when they bought the complete display of Henry Augustus Ward from the Columbian Exhibition in 1893. Henry Ward was a commercial dealer of museum display items and he was a meteorite dealer, the biggest of his times in USA. After his death, in 1912 there was a bidding race between the AMNH in New York, the Smithonian and Chicago Field to purchase Ward's private collection. And Chicago won and paid 1.8 million of USD (inflation adjusted) to the heirs. Let's stay in Chicago - the Adler Planetarium has a fine meteorite collection. Max Adler naturally hadn't found them by his own, he naturally purchased them and he purchased them from a dealer, Anton Mensing. How London in your country started? In 1810 they purchased the Greville-collection for more than 1 million USD. Maskelyne afterwards extended the meteorite collection excessively with more than 200 locales - most of them he purchased from August Krantz. August Krantz was nothing else than a commercial dealer, running a geological warehouse (the firm still exists). All important museums were buying from Krantz. What Koser is today for Campo, Krantz was at his times for Pultusk. And these were also the times, of the sometimes almost ruinous races between the top collections of the world, where they spend really large sums to purchase meteorites. Fletcher - you know it buy your own, the funny anecdote how he achieved to buy the Crumlin fall, in bribing the niece of the private owner in paying her an organon, hoping she would persuade her uncle to sell to him. Of course Fletcher was buying too. Hey - who later was also in the UNESCO working group for meteorites, where, if you read the first report, it was for them in that group a matter of course, that there exist meteorite dealers to buy from - Hey bought a part of the collection from a certain meteorite dealer, named Nininger. The sources differ, some say it was half, others a third, others a fifth of the collection (I guess it's only differently counted, by weight, by number of specimens, by number of locales). He paid more than 1 million USD. I'm to lazy to look, what did the wive of Peary got from the AMNH for Cape York? Ah let me search though... I read 40,000$ in 1904 - inflation calculator says: is 912022.77$ in 2007 Hey dealers on the list here, hands up, when did you have your last 900,000$ sale? Enough examples - let's recommend rather a good read, Peter "The history of meteoritics and key meteorite collections" By Gerald Joseph Home McCall, A. J. Bowden, Richard John Howarth There the members could find many examples more. In my eyes hence it's an illusion, that meteorites were in former times mainly donated to the top collections, that there was no market and that they were cheaper than today. The price lists of Krantz, of Ward, of the Foote Company, of Nininger, Huss, Zeitschel they still do exist. So we can prove that meteorites are today much much much much much more cheaper than ever - and that solely due to the increased activities of the private meteorite hunters and dealers. In fact the only real historical bargain I can remember, was when NIPR in Tokyo, purchased the collection of meteorite dealer Walter Zeitschel (the largest private meteorite collection of these times). The price was obscenely low. Greetings to Walter, who is currently in hospital again. Peter, Mark! - do you remember the trade formula Wuelfing developed for the curators helping to estimate the right trade ratios of 2 locales, when they swap? Emil Cohen (the one from the cohenite) tested then whether this formula is reflected in the actual - please forgive me, I don't know how to say it else - how they are reflected in the market prices of his days. For that purpose he published a compilation of all market prices in 1899, which he had collected in that decade. Please note also, that as these times there were only 700 meteorites known, from these 700 meteorites Cohen lists more than 300 with their prices! Which were avalaible for sale. Only to compare, when I started in the early 1980ies with collecting, from the 3000 locales less than 10% were available for sale. So I fear, there was something like a kind of market... Cohen's compilation - that were the prices your colleagues of these times, the curators, had to pay and were paying. I once made the work to turn the meteorites names of these lists into the modern names in use and to convert the prices into today's USD-prices. That was difficult, cause they were given in Goldmark. That converted and inflation adjusted price compilation, Michael Blood saved online under the link, I give below. (just search on this page for "Cohen" it's in the middle somewhere). IMPORTANT - IMPORTANT - IMPORTANT - IMPORTANT !!! If you want to use it now. My conversion factor there is WRONG !!! Today I have more exact information. (source Statistisches Bundesamt) The purchase power of the Goldmark suffered quite a devaluation in the very years after Cohen had published his lists and my comparison values stem from that later values... So you have to MULTIPLY the GIVEN PRICE BY 5.4 To get the correct equivalents of today. PRICE x 5.4 http://www.michaelbloodmeteorites.com/MMT1.html I hope that is interesting... Well, but more recently... when I started collecting, I had to pay up to 9$/g for a Sikhote. Now we had several years, where you got the best quality at a standard price of 0.3$/g. My first Muonionalusta I had to pay with more than 20$/g, because there were only 3 pieces known. Now the privateers dig out several tons and if you as curator wants to have a sample in your collection, you have to pay not more than 100$ per kilogram or you have to swap a 200times smaller amount of your material in exchange. Brahin - at my times not available and if, then expensive as Esquel. Now you can have it for below 1$. Brenham - I sincerely doubt, whether you could have bought it from a Nininger in the 1950ies at 0.06$/g which would be the equivalent of today's Brenham bulk price. And please don't come with Allende, yes Allende was cheaper than today, but it was an unique and sudden impact of a ton on the market. In turn take the Pultusks found today in the field, they cost just 1-2$/g more than Krantz asked right after the fall. Kainsaz, Kainsaz had cost once 50-100$/g, when the new specimens were found, the finders brought the prices down to 2 or 3$ a gram! That you could buy a fresh and pristine fall at 1-3$/g like Juancheng, El Hammami, Bassikonou, Chergach, Tamdaght, Bensour, Zag, Ben Guerir Happened as far as I can see only twice in history. Allende and Alfianello. I made a Cohen-like price compilation of the years 2000 and 2001. With the complete offers of more than 80 dealers and private offerers. For the rare types you had to pay then 10-50 times more than today. Peter, Mark - if you wanted to have an acapulcoite in your collection, 15-10 years ago you had the choice between a Monument Draw at an average price of 900$ a gram (all inflation-adjusted) or an Acapulco at 1300$/g. You saw me and Stefan selling in Ensisheim acapulcoites at 40$/g in small slices. Rumurutiites - you had to pay 250, 300 and up. We're selling them now starting at 9$/g for slices, up to 25$/g if it's a very pretty one and for the W0 and W0/1er rivalling Rumuruti as a fall, there we asked 50$-60$, because there exist only 4 small stones on Earth. Brachinites - have you noticed that we asked 50 Euro/g ? That is all stuff rarer than any Moon or Martian! Apropos lunaites - the 5 different lunaites we have, for the price we ask for them altogether you hardly can run the McMurdo Station in Antarctica for 3 or 4 days, but all teams from ANSMET, NIPR, Chinese Polar Research need on average more than 6 years to find the same number and amount of lunaites. Nuff. I don't know much about the artefacts, art, fossils, mineral market - if the developments are there like you said, they are so, but then you have to see, that the meteorite "market" obviously evolved decoupled from that general evolution and in exactly the opposite direction. The bulk from Sahara are unclassified weathered chondrites. They are retailed to the collectors and to the curators, if they want, at prices down to 25$/kg. Can anybody name an example in history, where a meteorite was available at such a price...... Peter, Mark - I'm writing that not to show what for a weisenheimer I am and good heavens don't take it under no circumstances as an personal attack. I'm only desperate - you know that dealer, hunter and collectors bashing you can read everywhere in publications and in media, I'm desperate cause so few are willing to take notice what however happened and is happening in reality. Because how shall we enter any meaningful discussion to find a compromise or a solution, if we don't even know or ignore the fundamental facts? Let me close with a thesis. A thesis which is not keen. I say: To acquire the complete output of new meteorite finds done by the private side in a year and worldwide, there are necessary not more than 10 million USD. Off to bed now. Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Peter Davidson Gesendet: Donnerstag, 9. Juli 2009 10:23 An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Mark, I would like to answer some of your allegations if I may and perhaps open a debate about where collected material goes. There seems to be a rather broad misconception about museums and their collections. Let me just start by saying that collectors have made an inestimable contribution to the furtherance of science. There is no disputing this. As science developed from the late 17th Century, collectors and explorers went out into the wide world to search for the unusual, exotic and unseen. Of course this material went to universities and museums, where else could it go? It was these fast developing institutions that were at the cutting edge of scientific research up to and beyond the Victorian Age. There were private collectors, but they were often former academics and almost certainly university educated. At their deaths, universities and museum were often the beneficiaries of their wills and many private collections came into public hands this way. It also has to be remembered that museum collections, including our own, were originally set-up as teaching collections. There was no real market place for geological specimens in the sense we know it today, so prices were lower - comparatively. The clientele, such as it was, was also largely middle- or upper-class and financially very well off. However, the notion that there is a "flow" of newly found material into museums is not entirely true. I do not work in an artefact-based department. It would therefore be unfair of me to comment to any great degree on their collecting policies. As I stated above, much of the material in museum drawers are donated/bequeathed objects or collections acquired by purchase. In any collection, there is a variable proportion of material that can be described as "contextless" or "difficult". But what may at the time be considered of lesser value may after subsequent research prove to be of greater value. It is on that basis museums often appear to hoard excess material. It is also often the case that once material is registered, it is very difficult and, I would personally add undesirable, to sell-off this material. If this material is contextless, then it can surely have no value in the market place anyway. Would you buy a shapeless lump of rock or pottery whose only provenance is "found in museum drawer"? On the scientific side, the "value" of an object can be viewed differently. As a mineralogist, as well as the obvious aesthetic qualities of some objects, there is also the scientific value. Some of the rarest and most "precious" of our objects are (to an aesthete) uninspiring and dull. Yet to a mineralogist, they may be the finest examples of a mineral species in the World. As for a never-ending flow of objects disappearing into museum collections. Let me assure you that if this is happening, then it is being done by elves at night when there are no museum staff around. As far as owning the objects. Well in that sense the museums doesn't own the specimens. The people of Scotland own them, all five million of us, and they are available for viewing either in galleries, online or by appointment for free. You only have to ask. Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals National Museums Collection Centre National Museums Scotland 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Phone: +44 131 247 4283 p.davidson at nms.ac.uk www.nms.ac.uk -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Mark Ford Sent: 08 July 2009 16:01 To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Also we should never underestimate the contribution made to science by collectors! This is particularly true of meteorites, if no-one collected them, and created the resources needed for hunting them, our museum draws would actually be much emptier I suspect - Yes the market price would (arguably) be a little bit lower but how exactly does that help find more meteorites?? Imho, one of the reasons the market prices keep going up (particularly with historic artifacts) is newly found stuff simply flows in one direction into museum collections and archives. further limiting the market availability, this will only get worse if the supply of material to collectors gets even further choked off, by stupid blanket laws - for example if museums where allowed to trade and sell off some of the artifacts that are not needed then the market value would drop to sensible levels. (Ironically, there are countless thousands of useless orphaned contextless artifacts, that can serve no useful purpose sitting in museum draws all over the world, some are probably worth a small fortune on the open market - surely we should consider using some of this to fund much more important work, before we target private collectors). I believe we actually all have a personal responsibility to only keep and collect what we actually need to collect, museums included, that way everyone gets the chance to own these treasures without needing a mortgage, After all there is only so much to go round. Mark -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Peter Davidson Sent: 08 July 2009 12:02 To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies This is my first posting on this list - please be gentle with me. I have only been on the list a matter of a week or so and I seemed to have walked into a veritable storm. I would like to share my views with you as a curator. Please forgive this rather long mail. Taking a posting from Martin Altmann dated 7th July as my starting point, here goes. I have never heard a law being described as "exotic". Do you mean idiotic? I can in no way speak on behalf of all curators, far less Australian ones. I can only give you my own viewpoint but I do know many curators from Australia, mostly mineralogists, and please believe me when I tell you they are fine people and not the narrow-minded, nationalistic people hinted at in a number of e-mails. I also noted that Martin Altmann stated that everybody on the list was a "lousy layman" which is not only patently untrue but just a little sexist. But I digress. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us. Email info at ssl.gb.com. You should not copy or use this email or attachment(s) for any purpose nor disclose their contents to any other person. GENERAL STATEMENT: Southern Scientific Ltd's computer systems may be monitored and communications carried on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other lawful purposes. Registered address Rectory Farm Rd, Sompting, Lancing, W Sussex BN15 0DP. Company No 1800317 ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Garden Detectives. Unearthing natures little secrets. 26 Jun  27 Sep. Admission free: www.nms.ac.uk/garden National Museums Scotland, Scottish Charity, No. SC 011130 This communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the addressee please inform the sender and delete the email from your system. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of National Museums Scotland. This message is subject to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. No liability is accepted for any harm that may be caused to your systems or data by this message. From MeteorHntr at aol.com Thu Jul 9 10:33:21 2009 From: MeteorHntr at aol.com (MeteorHntr at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 10:33:21 EDT Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA Message-ID: Chris, I agree to a point. But if one has some good video, there is nothing even the best eye witness of a 1 am fireball could add. Once it goes dark, there is nothing to see to report on. Maybe if it was a day time fireball, someone might see a stone hitting the ground, but not at night. The burn out spot is as close as we can get, then it is time to walk, or to ask, via the media, for other people to look in that area. Of course even more camera info can only help beyond just finding the landing zone. Steve In a message dated 7/9/2009 8:59:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time, clp at alumni.caltech.edu writes: A strewn field can be at any orientation with respect to the original meteor path, and can lie some miles from the terminal explosion location, depending on the height of the explosion and the winds. It is very difficult to determine where meteorites will land, even with accurate video records and good weather data (from a weather balloon). At best, you can narrow it down to a few tens of square miles. After that, it's back to the tried and true: interviewing people on the ground, and searching. Also, it shouldn't be overlooked that a large fireball, even with a terminal explosion, is very likely to produce no meteorites at all. Better camera data can help access the likelihood of that by helping to narrow down the entry angle and velocity. Chris **************Dell Studio XPS Desktop: Save up to $400 - Limited Time Offer (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222466512x1201463496/aol?redir=htt p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D3) From drtanuki at yahoo.com Thu Jul 9 10:39:59 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 07:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meteorite-list] How far away can a meteor be heard? Message-ID: <387233.12473.qm@web53106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> List, I have the answer for thunder but not a meteor (I am guessing that they are about the same? 10miles or 16km Chris or anyone care to give the correct answer? Thanks! Thunder contains a somewhat cylindrical initial pressure shock wave along the lightning channel in excess of 10 times the normal atmospheric pressure. This shock wave decays rapidly into a sound wave within feet or meters. When thunder is heard from about 328 feet (100 m) distance, it consists of one large bang, yet hissing and clicking may be heard just prior to the bang (upward streamers). When heard at .6 mile (1 km) from lightning, thunder will rumble with several loud claps. Thunder is seldom heard beyond 10 miles (16 km) under ideal conditions. The sound of distant thunder has a characteristic low-pitched rumbling sound. Pitch, the degree of highness or lowness of a sound, is due to strong absorption and scattering of high-frequency components of the original sound waves, while the rumbling results from the fact that sound waves are emitted from different locations along the lightning channel, which lie at varying distances from a person. The longer the lightning channels, the longer the sound of thunder. Humans hear frequencies of thunder between 20-120 Hertz (Hz). However, there is a small amount, less than 10%, that is inaudible to humans produced from lightning, called infrasonic. Special listening devices are required to record these inaudible sounds. Sources: http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_info/thunder2.html Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo From clp at alumni.caltech.edu Thu Jul 9 10:44:29 2009 From: clp at alumni.caltech.edu (Chris Peterson) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 08:44:29 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA References: Message-ID: <3195DC3B16FE4C8AB95953FBAE42D769@bellatrix> No, witness reports continue to be a big help. In particular, reports about sonic booms can be very helpful. It has been observed in many cases that these tend to be heard only near the fall zone, and this has proved very useful for a number of meteorite hunters. If you have good information about the location of the terminal explosion, the next step is to interview people on the ground in an effort to narrow down the search area. There should be good radiosonde data available in most places as well. Once the height of the terminal explosion is determined, this should be used to model the dark flight. This data can be the difference between an uncertainty on the ground of a few square miles versus hundreds of square miles. Chris ***************************************** Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 8:33 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - "witness" to July 6 Fireball PA > Chris, > > I agree to a point. But if one has some good video, there is nothing > even > the best eye witness of a 1 am fireball could add. Once it goes dark, > there is nothing to see to report on. Maybe if it was a day time > fireball, > someone might see a stone hitting the ground, but not at night. > > The burn out spot is as close as we can get, then it is time to walk, or > to ask, via the media, for other people to look in that area. > > Of course even more camera info can only help beyond just finding the > landing zone. > > Steve From clp at alumni.caltech.edu Thu Jul 9 10:49:28 2009 From: clp at alumni.caltech.edu (Chris Peterson) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 08:49:28 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] How far away can a meteor be heard? References: <387233.12473.qm@web53106.mail.re2.yahoo.com>