From scientificlifestyle at hotmail.com Sun Nov 1 00:40:12 2009 From: scientificlifestyle at hotmail.com (Pat Brown) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 20:40:12 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Collection succession planning In-Reply-To: References: <8247DE0AF16D47C991D58AF2CE32A9F1@meteorroom> Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi Dave and the List=2C=20 Excellent article and very timely.=20 I would suggest one more item to add to Step #6: Namely=2C cultivating a love for meteorites and tektites and related materi= als in some of your children=2C grandchildren=2C nieces=2C nephews=2C etc.= =20 Personally=2C I value keeping most of my collection in my family. Sure=2C t= here are a few items that were specifically purchased as investments=2C but= I want the majority of my collection to fuel this passion in my descendant= s/kin.=20 Towards that end=2C for Christmas each year=2C I prepare a special -additio= nal- gift for each of my children (23 and 20 yrs old) and my nieces and nep= hews (15 yrs to 3 yrs old) that is space rock related. I also include a gif= t certificate to a bookstore to cultivate a love of books and life long lea= rning.=20 One year I gave each of them a framed in-situ photo and customized topo map= printout with each child's name and a small Nevada meteorite that I recove= red from the field. I used a two sided glass frame with the in-situ photo v= isible from the front with the meteorite mounted below=3B the back of the f= rame showed the topo map with the latitude and longitude coordinates and a = title of "Fred's Meteorite". Nearly every one of these went to grammar scho= ol 'show and tell'. At least one niece has a meteorite 'shrine' on top of h= er dresser. One year=2C I made up some lunar micros potted in epoxy in a hold punched t= hrough a laminated business card glued down to a piece of sheet metal. This= allowed the kids to 'touch the moon'.=20 Another year the kids each got an SNC micro in a riker mount with a customi= zed laminated collection card in each child's name.=20 There are 10 kids=2C nieces and nephews total in my clan=3B so if I get a 1= 0% yield=2C that cultivates one collector to pass on my collection to. If t= he yield is>10%=2C then the collection can be logically divided.=20 Each family was given a copy of our own O. Richard Norton's _Rocks from Spa= ce_=3B which I can highly praise as a great introduction to the subject for= scientifically literate children of all ages.=20 Are your young kin scientifically literate? It is literally never too early= to start! (pun intended) Christmas is coming up=3B what am I going to do this year?...... Best Regards=2C=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Pat - scientific lifestyle ---------------------------------------- > From: dave at fallingrocks.com > To: lintonius at earthlink.net > Date: Fri=2C 30 Oct 2009 20:56:48 -0400 > CC: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Collection succession planning > > Linton & All=2C > > Thanks for reading the article=2C and I'm glad it may have inspired an id= ea or > two. Thanks to the few dozen who sent very nice off list notes about the > article as well. I'd say all of our collections are humble at the end of > the day=2C and that it's humbling for us to have them at all. > > It's not often that repeatedly hearing things like "your article really > scared me" is a good thing=2C but it's great to see that some thinking ma= y > have been provoked. Simple stuff=2C but oh how often we let the simple st= uff > fall right through the cracks of time =3B-) > > All the best=2C > > Dave > www.fallingrocks.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Linton Rohr [mailto:lintonius at earthlink.net] > Sent: Thursday=2C October 29=2C 2009 4:28 PM > To: dave at fallingrocks.com > Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Collection succession planning > > Dave=2C > I enjoyed reading your article again=2C despite having read it in Met Mag > already. > I'm in the midst of updating the "recent" acquisitions and sales in my > humble collection. I'm living on borrowed time already=2C as we all are > really=2C so it is important to me that my wife is left with more than a = pile > of rocks to sort through. Your article gives me some ideas on how I can > improve my system. And don't worry=2C I'll enjoy life while doing so. =3B= ^) > Thank you. > Linton > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave Gheesling"=20 > To: "'bill kies'"=20 > Cc:=20 > Sent: Thursday=2C October 29=2C 2009 4:21 AM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Collection succession planning > > >> Bill & All=2C >> >> A couple of notes have come in expressing trouble with the link=2C yours >> being >> the second=2C so go to www.fallingrocks.com=2C hit Links & Resources on = the >> home >> page=2C then hit "Temporary Custodians" under the Media header. >> >> Interesting to see insight from you re: concern over negative things=2C = but=2C >> to keep this positive=2C perhaps you might spend two minutes giving it a >> read >> before posting said assumptions? I doubt the notion is one that might >> drive >> readers to a monastery or Zoloft. Pretty simple stuff=2C and a real sham= e >> when >> such an easy thing to do is overlooked until it is too late. >> >> Dave >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bill kies [mailto:parkforestmet at hotmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday=2C October 29=2C 2009 1:07 AM >> To: dave at fallingrocks.com >> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Collection succession planning >> >> >> Are we temporary custodians? That implies we owe the collective in a >> Jungian >> way. If you consider all the negative things that could happen to our >> meteorites/belongings=2C you'll either become a monk or a nervous wreck. >> >> Everything should be recorded in case of an accident but life comes befo= re >> the provenance of any collection. Time is so short for us. >> >> This comment is based on an assumption of what your article was about as >> the >> link didn't work for me. >> >> Thanks=2C >> Bill >> >> >>> From: dave at fallingrocks.com >>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> Date: Wed=2C 28 Oct 2009 22:19:01 -0400 >>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Collection succession planning >>> >>> Hi All=2C >>> >>> I recently wrote a brief article that Larry ran in the August 2009 >>> issue of Meteorite Magazine entitled "Temporary Custodians=2C" and the >>> response has been a bit surprising. Somewhere around a couple dozen >>> readers have taken the time to drop me an email saying things like >>> "thanks for the heads-up article...[it] made for uneasy reading." >>> Surely there are collectors on this list who do not yet subscribe to >>> Meteorite Magazine (and everyone on this list really should!)=2C so=2C >>> given the topic=2C I'm posting a transcript below. >>> >>> The content is by no means comprehensive=2C but I'd really encourage >>> those of you with meteorite collections to give it a quick read. Most >>> of us have been guilty at one time or another -- or at all times -- of >>> leaving loose ends such as those described in the writing. Anyway=2C a >>> web version of it can be found here: >> http://www.fallingrocks.com/FRarticle-082009.htm. >>> >>> Larry=2C I hope you don't mind my posting it here=2C and thank you agai= n >>> for giving the topic coverage in Meteorite! >>> >>> All the best=2C >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> Dave Gheesling >>> IMCA #5967 >>> www.fallingrocks.com >> > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list =20 _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: Simplify your PC. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=3DPID24727::T:= WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen1:102009= From eric at meteoritesusa.com Sun Nov 1 03:58:58 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 01:58:58 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] The Meteorite Wiki: For The World Message-ID: <4AED4DD2.6050100@meteoritesusa.com> Good Morning Listees, Hope everyone had a great week last week. I've had a great time this past week, and have received a large number of emails and phone calls from friends in this community congratulating me on creating the Meteorite Wiki. I'd like to say thank you very much for all the kind words, advice and suggestions for the site, I do appreciate all of it. But I find it kind of weird to receive these kind words on something that should have been created long ago. Why it wasn't I have no idea as it's something that is greatly needed by the meteorite world, and now the main stream. With increasing awareness of meteorite falls, fireballs, asteroids, including the mighty mid-air explosions over Indonesia, and even a few hoaxes as the media spins more and more fantastic tales about asteroids, meteorites and meteors it's more important than ever to provide an information source that will help educate the public about meteorites, the events that surround them and the science behind them. This is especially important given the massive media attention and the inaccurate data being reported. That is a huge problem in and of itself. Poor reporting by lazy reporters and skewed data are constant problems. On a more positive note, we can be happy about the millions of viewers that the new and exciting Meteorite Men cable television series on the Science Channel will garner. A lot of these people will become fascinated by them, and hopefully will be amazed enough to research more information on them. The show I think will create a whole new group of meteorite collectors and hunters through the ingenious adventure/science theme of the show, and most likely will add a few new scientists to the meteorite world as well. To be able to entertain and educate at the same time about the coolest rocks on the face of the planet has to rank up there. It doesn't get much more exciting than that. Meteorites will continue to grow in popularity as awareness increases. Millions of people will watch the show yes, and millions more will watch the new movie by director Roland Emmerich called 2012. Most are familiar with the ominous 2012 date from the Mayan calendar because the calendar inexplicably ends on the date of December 21 2012, which some believe marks the end of the world. Some believe that it foretells of the future impact of a massive asteroid with the Earth in which all life will be extinguished in a huge ball of fire wiping out all living creatures and human beings in the process. Thanks to Roland Emmerich's new 2012 movie and the countless millions of people and websites surrounding this event, the date is now etched in the minds of hundreds of millions of people across the globe, and the closer we get to this date, the more interest in asteroids there will be, and in turn the more interest there will be in meteorites! Given the recent 50 kiloton explosion (equivalent to 110 million pounds of TNT explosives) of an untracked and very scientifically surprising asteroid over Indonesia just a few weeks ago, this proves there's more out there than we can possibly track and raises some alarm as well. http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news165.html Many scientists were taken by surprise and were amazed at the force and size of the mid-air explosion. It's been reported that no one knew it existed until it exploded over land scaring thousands of locals and setting off infrasound detection systems thousands of miles away. I can't really mention all this without mentioning NASAs new Asteroid Watch program http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/asteroidwatch/ and of course the NEO (Near Earth Object Program) http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/ both of which track, record and notify interested parties of the potential hazards of the extraterrestrial visitors we lovingly know as asteroids. Many of NASAs program participants and scientists are ever more aware of the social networking craze that has taken the internet world by storm, and have implemented and created their own social network accounts on Twitter, Facebook, Myspace and other popular websites. This revolution of online networking has allowed the worlds best advertising system (word of mouth) to become electronic in nature spreading the word around the world in a matter of seconds! Combine that with cell phones, PDAs, and broadband enabled laptops and other mobile computing technology you can see the power and importance of having the right information available to those who search for it. So the next time there's a large fireball event, a meteorite fall, or when NASA discovers a new asteroid impactor or scientists find, track and predict an impact like that of Asteroid 2008 TC3, there will be a source of information and knowledge readily available for the curious, for the educator, and for the media to compile accurate data for their reports. We'll have an informational database for the worlds meteorite knowledge created by the people for the people and to educate the people about those rocks we love so much. I hope you will take part in the new Meteorite Wiki and help share the science and knowledge of meteorites with the world! Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA Founder The Meteorite Wiki www.MeteoriteWiki.com P.S. There's been many more pages created on the wiki so far, and all of them are open for editing and article contribution. If you are an educator, scientist, and/or an expert in your field of study and feel there needs to be a page article dedicated to a certain topic you're invited to create a Meteorite Wiki account and contribute your work. You are welcome to include a credit/by line and date if you wish, and link to any reference and relevant links to an "External Links" section at the bottom of the page article. Here's a short list of pages that either have been created already or are being created now. http://www.meteoritewiki.com/index.php/Special:AllPages If you can think of a topic that needs to be covered, by all means drop me an email, sign up and create it! Enjoy... From meteorites at online.nl Sun Nov 1 08:54:23 2009 From: meteorites at online.nl (Jan Bartels) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 14:54:23 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] [AD] Most beautifull Oriented Gao 134 gr. and more Message-ID: <73A2081A7BD94CC8B821665AB3AF2BC7@laptop> Litoids, Right now on Ebay. Sensational oriented Gao. Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/SUPER-Oriented-Gao-Meteorite-134-grams_W0QQitemZ170401385408QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27acb6cbc0 Oum Dreyga 113 grams with Flowlines. Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/Oum-Dreyga-Meteorite-113gr-Flowlines_W0QQitemZ170401391834QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27acb6e4da Ending soon: Cape York big slice 495 grams: Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/Cape-York-Iron-Meteorite-Etched-Slice-495-grams_W0QQitemZ170399243658QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27ac961d8a Ending soon: Henbury etched full slice 665 grams. Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/Henbury-Iron-Meteorite-Etched-full-slice-665-grams_W0QQitemZ170399183349QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27ac9531f5 Enjoy, Jan IMCA 9833 From meteoritemike at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 12:22:16 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 12:22:16 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD : Canyon Diablo Display Lot, Message-ID: Hi Folks! I have a few offerings of interest, including a large Canyon Diablo Riker display. http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/0/Canyon-Diablo-Crater-Display-Kit--Famous-Iron-Meteorite_592091.html This set would be perfect as a gift or perhaps as an outreach prop. It has several different samples from the Canyon Diablo site - crater sand, ejecta rim rock, tiny shrapnels, large individual iron, and tiny spheroids from the Nininger collection. (the latter have a copy of the original collection label) Forget the price on the website - US Met-List members can have this kit for $80 shipped! Canadian and Overseas buyers is $100 shipped via USPS Priority International Box. (typically about one week delivery time) I also have the entire 2008 year of Meteorite Magazine (4 quarterly issues) for $50 shipped. Again, ignore the price on the website - that price is for the general public and not Met List members. http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/0/Meteorite-Magazine--Entire-2008-Year--4-Issues_1009149.html I also have some beautifully-crusted and fresh stony meteorites from a variety of recent falls - some of these are oriented and 100% crusted. All of them come in dessicated Riker boxes with display labels - ready for your cabinet or display shelf. All of these are prime examples of their respective falls, or they wouldn't have been in my private/personal collection cabinet. I'm not a "high roller" collector, so I can't afford BIG stones that are this nice, so I collect the nicest ones I can afford - the offerings below are of high quality. Again - ignore the prices on the website. Met-List members get 25% off of the prices for the specimens below : Bassikounou 4.69 grams, fully 100% crusted in FRESH velvety, pitch-black fusion crust. This is as nice as a small Bassikounou gets. http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Bassikounou-Witnessed-Fall--100-Crusted-Whole-Stone_1065553.html Chergach 6.63 grams, fully-oriented with prominent roll-over lip. 98% fully crusted in FRESH black velvety fusion crust. This is one of the freshest Chergach stones I have ever seen. It must have been collected right after it first hit the dirt. It has one tiny spot on the fusion crust where the unoxidized matrix is exposed. http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Chergach-Meteorite--Oriented-Whole-Stone-w-Rollover-Lip_1065557.html Oum Dreyga 4.53 grams, Oriented and 100% FRESH fusion crust. Just like the two stones above, this one is truly "fresh" - pitch black, matte-velvety crust. This one didn't sit in the desert long before someone scooped it up and protected it from oxidation. http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Oum-Dreyga-Witnessed-Fall-Meteorite--Oriented-Whole-Stone_1065564.html Bensour 2.35 grams - 100% FRESH black crust. This one has a nice rounded organic shape that reminds me of a tiny pea-pod. http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Bensour-Witnessed-Fall-Meteorite--Fresh-Whole-Stone_1065561.html FINDS : (don't forget, you get 25% off of these prices shown below) Gold Basin (with Aerolite label and Kriegh/Monrad provenance) - this one is a "faux-individual". This means it is a nice round fragment that is not jagged - at first glance, it could resemble a small "individual". It's spherical, like a weathered marble. If you want a collectible Gold Basin fragment, this is it. http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Gold-Basin--Arizona-Meteorite--Jim-Kriegh-Personal-Find_1066934.html I also have the following available - Juancheng crusted fragment, Tamdakht crusted fragment, Moldavites, and cheap bulk UNWA lots for outreach or gifts. (small slices, endcuts and fragments). BOOKS - Collision Earth, Meteorite & Comet Impacts by Grego - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Collision-Earth--Meteorite-Comet-Impacts-by-Peter-Grego_1055700.html Comets, Creators and Destroyers by Levy - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Comets--Creators-and-Destroyers-by-David-Levy_1069531.html Moldavite, Starborn Stone of Transformation (New Age) - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Moldavite--Starborn-Stone-of-Transformation--Book_1041995.html I have a growing pile of MAPS journal back issues - contact me to make an offer. Lastly, have some nice NWA 869 display slices - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/NWA-869--Heavy-Slice--1004-grams_1019899.html http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126502/NWA-869--Crusted-Endcut--937-grams_1019905.html http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126502/NWA-869--Nice-Slice--464-grams_1019895.html http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126502/NWA-869--Crusted-Endcut--105-grams_1019890.html http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126502/NWA-869--Nice-Thick-Slice--999-grams_1019665.html EVERYONE WHO ORDERS TODAY WILL GET EXTRA FREEBIES - classified NWA slices and other nice stuff. My website only accepts PayPal, so if you don't want to use PayPal, then contact me directly at - meteoritemike at gmail.com If you use the website, don't forget to use this coupon code at checkout - "metlist" - this will give you a 25% discount on your total order. If you have any problems using the coupon or checkout, contact me via email. Thanks for looking and clear skies! (and Happy Huntings!) MikeG -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Florida, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com FaceBook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone MySpace - http://www.myspace.com/fine_meteorites_4_sale Twitter - Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone eBay - http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/maypickle .......................................................... From wahlperry at aol.com Sun Nov 1 12:54:43 2009 From: wahlperry at aol.com (wahlperry at aol.com) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 12:54:43 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] The Meteorite Wiki: For The World In-Reply-To: <4AED4DD2.6050100@meteoritesusa.com> References: <4AED4DD2.6050100@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: <8CC293386E61829-9E44-1093@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com> Hi Eric, Good job on the Wiki site, it looks good. >On a more positive note, we can be happy about the millions of viewers >that the new and exciting Meteorite Men cable television series on the >Science Channel will garner. A lot of these people will become >fascinated by them, and hopefully will be amazed enough to research more >information on them. The show I think will create a whole new group of >meteorite collectors and hunters through the ingenious adventure/science >theme of the show, and most likely will add a few new scientists to the >meteorite world as well. To be able to entertain and educate at the same >time about the coolest rocks on the face of the planet has to rank up >there. It doesn't get much more exciting than that. I could not agree more, we need to complement Geoff and Steve for their contributions to the Meteorite world! Sonny -----Original Message----- From: Meteorites USA To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:58 am Subject: [meteorite-list] The Meteorite Wiki: For The World Good Morning Listees,? ? Hope everyone had a great week last week. I've had a great time this past week, and have received a large number of emails and phone calls from friends in this community congratulating me on creating the Meteorite Wiki. I'd like to say thank you very much for all the kind words, advice and suggestions for the site, I do appreciate all of it. But I find it kind of weird to receive these kind words on something that should have been created long ago. Why it wasn't I have no idea as it's something that is greatly needed by the meteorite world, and now the main stream.? ? With increasing awareness of meteorite falls, fireballs, asteroids, including the mighty mid-air explosions over Indonesia, and even a few hoaxes as the media spins more and more fantastic tales about asteroids, meteorites and meteors it's more important than ever to provide an information source that will help educate the public about meteorites, the events that surround them and the science behind them.? ? This is especially important given the massive media attention and the inaccurate data being reported. That is a huge problem in and of itself. Poor reporting by lazy reporters and skewed data are constant problems.? ? On a more positive note, we can be happy about the millions of viewers that the new and exciting Meteorite Men cable television series on the Science Channel will garner. A lot of these people will become fascinated by them, and hopefully will be amazed enough to research more information on them. The show I think will create a whole new group of meteorite collectors and hunters through the ingenious adventure/science theme of the show, and most likely will add a few new scientists to the meteorite world as well. To be able to entertain and educate at the same time about the coolest rocks on the face of the planet has to rank up there. It doesn't get much more exciting than that.? ? Meteorites will continue to grow in popularity as awareness increases. Millions of people will watch the show yes, and millions more will watch the new movie by director Roland Emmerich called 2012.? ? Most are familiar with the ominous 2012 date from the Mayan calendar because the calendar inexplicably ends on the date of December 21 2012, which some believe marks the end of the world. Some believe that it foretells of the future impact of a massive asteroid with the Earth in which all life will be extinguished in a huge ball of fire wiping out all living creatures and human beings in the process.? ? Thanks to Roland Emmerich's new 2012 movie and the countless millions of people and websites surrounding this event, the date is now etched in the minds of hundreds of millions of people across the globe, and the closer we get to this date, the more interest in asteroids there will be, and in turn the more interest there will be in meteorites!? ? Given the recent 50 kiloton explosion (equivalent to 110 million pounds of TNT explosives) of an untracked and very scientifically surprising asteroid over Indonesia just a few weeks ago, this proves there's more out there than we can possibly track and raises some alarm as well. http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news165.html? ? Many scientists were taken by surprise and were amazed at the force and size of the mid-air explosion. It's been reported that no one knew it existed until it exploded over land scaring thousands of locals and setting off infrasound detection systems thousands of miles away.? ? I can't really mention all this without mentioning NASAs new Asteroid Watch program http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/asteroidwatch/ and of course the NEO (Near Earth Object Program) http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/ both of which track, record and notify interested parties of the potential hazards of the extraterrestrial visitors we lovingly know as asteroids. Many of NASAs program participants and scientists are ever more aware of the social networking craze that has taken the internet world by storm, and have implemented and created their own social network accounts on Twitter, Facebook, Myspace and other popular websites.? ? This revolution of online networking has allowed the worlds best advertising system (word of mouth) to become electronic in nature spreading the word around the world in a matter of seconds! Combine that with cell phones, PDAs, and broadband enabled laptops and other mobile computing technology you can see the power and importance of having the right information available to those who search for it.? ? So the next time there's a large fireball event, a meteorite fall, or when NASA discovers a new asteroid impactor or scientists find, track and predict an impact like that of Asteroid 2008 TC3, there will be a source of information and knowledge readily available for the curious, for the educator, and for the media to compile accurate data for their reports.? ? We'll have an informational database for the worlds meteorite knowledge created by the people for the people and to educate the people about those rocks we love so much.? ? I hope you will take part in the new Meteorite Wiki and help share the science and knowledge of meteorites with the world!? ? Regards,? Eric Wichman? Meteorites USA? Founder? The Meteorite Wiki? www.MeteoriteWiki.com? ? P.S. There's been many more pages created on the wiki so far, and all of them are open for editing and article contribution. If you are an educator, scientist, and/or an expert in your field of study and feel there needs to be a page article dedicated to a certain topic you're invited to create a Meteorite Wiki account and contribute your work. You are welcome to include a credit/by line and date if you wish, and link to any reference and relevant links to an "External Links" section at the bottom of the page article.? ? Here's a short list of pages that either have been created already or are being created now.? http://www.meteoritewiki.com/index.php/Special:AllPages? ? If you can think of a topic that needs to be covered, by all means drop me an email, sign up and create it!? ? Enjoy...? ? ? ______________________________________________? http://www.meteoritecentral.com? Meteorite-list mailing list? Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com? http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list? From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Sun Nov 1 12:54:08 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 09:54:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - New ebay listings Message-ID: <843155.34362.qm@web46414.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi to everyone on the list, I just listed some nice meteorites on ebay. A wide selection of material at very nice prices. Check my ebay listings here: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZwanderingstarmeteoritesQQhtZ-1 As always, off ebay sales of fixed price listings come with a 10% discount. Hope the rest of the weekend is good, Greg C. www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA 4682 From eric at meteoritesusa.com Sun Nov 1 13:53:45 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 10:53:45 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] The Meteorite Wiki: For The World In-Reply-To: <8CC293386E61829-9E44-1093@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com> References: <4AED4DD2.6050100@meteoritesusa.com> <8CC293386E61829-9E44-1093@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4AEDD939.3090001@meteoritesusa.com> Thanks Sonny, Ruben, List, I would agree that Steve and Geoff do need to be complimented and acknowledged for their work on bringing meteorites to the main stream. Though it is a cable television series it will expand the base of the meteorite world exponentially, especially when one considers the reach of the Science Channel and Discovery Communications. I'm looking forward to seeing the new episodes. Without showing any bias or favoritism, I agree wholeheartedly with Ruben when he stated /"...All too often (speaking for myself) it seems easy to forget the monumental achievements of Geoff and Steve. Think about it, they have successfully completed filming of the very first TV series about meteorites/meteorite hunting in history!..."/ Regardless of personal feelings on the matter, to help create a television series on such a major network is an amazing and wonderful thing for the meteorite world as a whole and certainly the logical next step. I predict in the next 2-3 years such an explosive growth of knowledge of the science of meteorites as never before seen in the history of this great science. It's never been in the public eye more than now, and it may even become a vehicle into the future of astronomical science for many. Who knows how many new scientists, astronomers and astronauts this exposure will create? It will have phenomenal growth. Perhaps we should consider adding Geoff and Steve to the "Meteorite Men" page on the wiki. Any volunteers to write the pages? ;) Thank you all... Regards, Eric wahlperry at aol.com wrote: > Hi Eric, > > Good job on the Wiki site, it looks good. > >> On a more positive note, we can be happy about the millions of viewers >> that the new and exciting Meteorite Men cable television series on the >> Science Channel will garner. A lot of these people will become >> fascinated by them, and hopefully will be amazed enough to research > more >> information on them. The show I think will create a whole new group of >> meteorite collectors and hunters through the ingenious > adventure/science >> theme of the show, and most likely will add a few new scientists to > the >> meteorite world as well. To be able to entertain and educate at the > same >> time about the coolest rocks on the face of the planet has to rank up >> there. It doesn't get much more exciting than that. > > I could not agree more, we need to complement Geoff and Steve for > their contributions to the Meteorite world! > > Sonny > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Meteorites USA > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Sent: Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:58 am > Subject: [meteorite-list] The Meteorite Wiki: For The World > > > > > > > > Good Morning Listees,? > ? > > Hope everyone had a great week last week. I've had a great time this > past week, and have received a large number of emails and phone calls > from friends in this community congratulating me on creating the > Meteorite Wiki. I'd like to say thank you very much for all the kind > words, advice and suggestions for the site, I do appreciate all of it. > But I find it kind of weird to receive these kind words on something > that should have been created long ago. Why it wasn't I have no idea as > it's something that is greatly needed by the meteorite world, and now > the main stream.? > ? > > With increasing awareness of meteorite falls, fireballs, asteroids, > including the mighty mid-air explosions over Indonesia, and even a few > hoaxes as the media spins more and more fantastic tales about asteroids, > meteorites and meteors it's more important than ever to provide an > information source that will help educate the public about meteorites, > the events that surround them and the science behind them.? > ? > > This is especially important given the massive media attention and the > inaccurate data being reported. That is a huge problem in and of itself. > Poor reporting by lazy reporters and skewed data are constant problems.? > ? > > On a more positive note, we can be happy about the millions of viewers > that the new and exciting Meteorite Men cable television series on the > Science Channel will garner. A lot of these people will become > fascinated by them, and hopefully will be amazed enough to research more > information on them. The show I think will create a whole new group of > meteorite collectors and hunters through the ingenious adventure/science > theme of the show, and most likely will add a few new scientists to the > meteorite world as well. To be able to entertain and educate at the same > time about the coolest rocks on the face of the planet has to rank up > there. It doesn't get much more exciting than that.? > ? > > Meteorites will continue to grow in popularity as awareness increases. > Millions of people will watch the show yes, and millions more will watch > the new movie by director Roland Emmerich called 2012.? > ? > > Most are familiar with the ominous 2012 date from the Mayan calendar > because the calendar inexplicably ends on the date of December 21 2012, > which some believe marks the end of the world. Some believe that it > foretells of the future impact of a massive asteroid with the Earth in > which all life will be extinguished in a huge ball of fire wiping out > all living creatures and human beings in the process.? > ? > > Thanks to Roland Emmerich's new 2012 movie and the countless millions of > people and websites surrounding this event, the date is now etched in > the minds of hundreds of millions of people across the globe, and the > closer we get to this date, the more interest in asteroids there will > be, and in turn the more interest there will be in meteorites!? > ? > > Given the recent 50 kiloton explosion (equivalent to 110 million pounds > of TNT explosives) of an untracked and very scientifically surprising > asteroid over Indonesia just a few weeks ago, this proves there's more > out there than we can possibly track and raises some alarm as well. > http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news165.html? > ? > > Many scientists were taken by surprise and were amazed at the force and > size of the mid-air explosion. It's been reported that no one knew it > existed until it exploded over land scaring thousands of locals and > setting off infrasound detection systems thousands of miles away.? > ? > > I can't really mention all this without mentioning NASAs new Asteroid > Watch program http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/asteroidwatch/ and of course the > NEO (Near Earth Object Program) http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/ both of which > track, record and notify interested parties of the potential hazards of > the extraterrestrial visitors we lovingly know as asteroids. Many of > NASAs program participants and scientists are ever more aware of the > social networking craze that has taken the internet world by storm, and > have implemented and created their own social network accounts on > Twitter, Facebook, Myspace and other popular websites.? > ? > > This revolution of online networking has allowed the worlds best > advertising system (word of mouth) to become electronic in nature > spreading the word around the world in a matter of seconds! Combine that > with cell phones, PDAs, and broadband enabled laptops and other mobile > computing technology you can see the power and importance of having the > right information available to those who search for it.? > ? > > So the next time there's a large fireball event, a meteorite fall, or > when NASA discovers a new asteroid impactor or scientists find, track > and predict an impact like that of Asteroid 2008 TC3, there will be a > source of information and knowledge readily available for the curious, > for the educator, and for the media to compile accurate data for their > reports.? > ? > > We'll have an informational database for the worlds meteorite knowledge > created by the people for the people and to educate the people about > those rocks we love so much.? > ? > > I hope you will take part in the new Meteorite Wiki and help share the > science and knowledge of meteorites with the world!? > ? > > Regards,? > > Eric Wichman? > > Meteorites USA? > > Founder? > > The Meteorite Wiki? > > www.MeteoriteWiki.com? > ? > > P.S. There's been many more pages created on the wiki so far, and all of > them are open for editing and article contribution. If you are an > educator, scientist, and/or an expert in your field of study and feel > there needs to be a page article dedicated to a certain topic you're > invited to create a Meteorite Wiki account and contribute your work. You > are welcome to include a credit/by line and date if you wish, and link > to any reference and relevant links to an "External Links" section at > the bottom of the page article.? > ? > > Here's a short list of pages that either have been created already or > are being created now.? > > http://www.meteoritewiki.com/index.php/Special:AllPages? > ? > > If you can think of a topic that needs to be covered, by all means drop > me an email, sign up and create it!? > ? > > Enjoy...? > ? > > ? > > ______________________________________________? > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com? > > Meteorite-list mailing list? > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com? > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list? > > > > > > > > From mrmeteorite at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 14:20:53 2009 From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com (Ruben Garcia) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 12:20:53 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] The Meteorite Wiki: For The World Message-ID: <80659e1a0911011120u30786eden71970c3828d0467@mail.gmail.com> Hi All, I couldn't agree with Eric and Sonny enough! All too often (speaking for myself) it seems easy to forget the monumental achievements of Geoff and Steve. Think about it, they have successfully completed filming of the very first TV series about meteorites/meteorite hunting in history! To me this was the next logical step in the evolution of this hobby -Nininger, Haag, Geoff and Steve...... Congrats again, Geoff and Steve! -- Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u From mrmeteorite at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 14:21:42 2009 From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com (Ruben Garcia) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 12:21:42 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] On a Sad Note........... Message-ID: <80659e1a0911011121v4c3a0748nc3ddd44a8898f3be@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I was shocked, saddened, and surprised to learn that our good friend, teacher, and meteorite hunter Jim Smaller - A.K.A. Paleface - passed away on Oct 25th, 2009. For those of you that didn?t know Jim or never had the opportunity to learn from or hunt with Jim you missed out. Jim was never egotistical, self serving, or an attention seeker. Instead he was a patient, kind and generous man that would go out of his way to help or instruct anyone. Jim knew more about metal detecting than anyone else I know and his may meteorite finds proved it. With the loss of Jim Kriegh I thought the meteorite world would never be the same. With the loss of Jim Smaller it can't be. I just added Jim to my tribute page along with Jim Kriegh. http://www.mr-meteorite.net/tributepage.htm -- Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u From arizonakeith at cox.net Sun Nov 1 14:36:53 2009 From: arizonakeith at cox.net (Arizona Keith) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 12:36:53 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fireball over Kansas video Message-ID: <4401AD3E58244F9E9D41A972A4C7A4DE@Keith2> Hello List Just came across this, looks like a fireball, what do you think? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgG7iOPG4G4&feature=sub Keith Chandler, Az From mlblood at cox.net Sun Nov 1 15:34:26 2009 From: mlblood at cox.net (Michael Blood) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 12:34:26 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] PARK FOREST - Fire Hydrant In-Reply-To: <80659e1a0911011121v4c3a0748nc3ddd44a8898f3be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Does anyone on the list have a piece of the Park Forest Hammer that Struck a Fire Hydrant? Does anyone have a photo of the Fire Hydrant That was struck? RSVP off list. Thanks, Michael From mail at mhmeteorites.com Sun Nov 1 15:50:16 2009 From: mail at mhmeteorites.com (Matt Morgan) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 20:50:16 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] PARK FOREST - Fire Hydrant Message-ID: <532739062-1257108695-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-382441603-@bda677.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> That is my piece. None for sale. Photo of the piece of my collection gallery page at www.mhmeteorites.com. Go to the middle of page near the bottom to get to the Collection Gallery. I do have a photo of the hydrant that I could scan. Matt ------Original Message------ From: Michael Blood Sender: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com To: Meteorite List Subject: [meteorite-list] PARK FOREST - Fire Hydrant Sent: Nov 1, 2009 1:34 PM Does anyone on the list have a piece of the Park Forest Hammer that Struck a Fire Hydrant? Does anyone have a photo of the Fire Hydrant That was struck? RSVP off list. Thanks, Michael ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ---------------------- Matt Morgan Mile High Meteorites http://www.mhmeteorites.com P.O. Box 151293 Lakewood, CO 80215 USA From spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 1 16:15:26 2009 From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com (Melanie Matthews) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 13:15:26 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] On a Sad Note........... In-Reply-To: <80659e1a0911011121v4c3a0748nc3ddd44a8898f3be@mail.gmail.com> References: <80659e1a0911011121v4c3a0748nc3ddd44a8898f3be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: :( :( Never met him...this is tragic. My kind words and thoughts to his family. RIP Jim. ----------- Melanie IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get! ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 12:21:42 -0700 > From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] On a Sad Note........... > > Hi all, > I was shocked, saddened, and surprised to learn that our good friend, > teacher, and meteorite hunter Jim Smaller - A.K.A. Paleface - passed > away on Oct 25th, 2009. For those of you that didn?t know Jim or never > had the opportunity to learn from or hunt with Jim you missed out. Jim > was never egotistical, self serving, or an attention seeker. Instead > he was a patient, kind and generous man that would go out of his way > to help or instruct anyone. Jim knew more about metal detecting than > anyone else I know and his may meteorite finds proved it. > > With the loss of Jim Kriegh I thought the meteorite world would never > be the same. With the loss of Jim Smaller it can't be. > > I just added Jim to my tribute page along with Jim Kriegh. > http://www.mr-meteorite.net/tributepage.htm > > -- > Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) > > Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net > Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ > Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ CDN College or University student? Get Windows 7 for only $39.99 before Jan 3! Buy it now! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691636 From bernd.pauli at paulinet.de Sun Nov 1 16:25:52 2009 From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de (bernd.pauli at paulinet.de) Date: 01 Nov 2009 21:25:52 UT Subject: [meteorite-list] On a sad note ... Jim Smaller Message-ID: We all know it will happen one day, and still, it is a tragic experience because we pretend to ignore it as "best" we can. But it will happen! I agree whole-heartedly with Melanie's RIP: May he rest in peace in the realm of meteorites that he loved so much! Bernd From mrmeteorite at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 16:31:06 2009 From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com (Ruben Garcia) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 14:31:06 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] On a Sad Note........... In-Reply-To: References: <80659e1a0911011121v4c3a0748nc3ddd44a8898f3be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80659e1a0911011331r5731fcf5oce166d409a4f374c@mail.gmail.com> Yes, Jim was a list member. On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Melanie Matthews wrote: > > :( :( > Never met him...this is tragic. My kind words and thoughts to his family. Was he on the list? > > RIP Jim. > ----------- > Melanie > IMCA: 2975 > eBay: metmel2775 > Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 > > Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get! > > > > >> Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 12:21:42 -0700 >> From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com >> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Subject: [meteorite-list] On a Sad Note........... >> >> Hi all, >> I was shocked, saddened, and surprised to learn that our good friend, >> teacher, and meteorite hunter Jim Smaller - A.K.A. Paleface - passed >> away on Oct 25th, 2009. For those of you that didn?t know Jim or never >> had the opportunity to learn from or hunt with Jim you missed out. Jim >> was never egotistical, self serving, or an attention seeker. ?Instead >> he was a patient, kind and generous man that would go out of his way >> to help or instruct anyone. Jim knew more about metal detecting than >> anyone else I know and his may meteorite finds proved it. >> >> With the loss of Jim Kriegh I thought the meteorite world would never >> be the same. With the loss of Jim Smaller it can't be. >> >> I just added Jim to my tribute page along with Jim Kriegh. >> http://www.mr-meteorite.net/tributepage.htm >> >> -- >> Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) >> >> Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net >> Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ >> Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get Windows 7 for only $39.99?CDN College & University students only. This offer ends Jan 3?upgrade now! > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691637 -- Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u From mojave_meteorites at cox.net Sun Nov 1 17:19:05 2009 From: mojave_meteorites at cox.net (Rob Matson) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 14:19:05 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fireball over Kansas video In-Reply-To: <4401AD3E58244F9E9D41A972A4C7A4DE@Keith2> Message-ID: Hi Keith, Definitely looks like a bolide, and with an excellent star background to support precise triangulation (if a second video or image should surface). In the mean time, I'm checking the NexRad Doppler radar data to see if it showed up... --Rob -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com]On Behalf Of Arizona Keith Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 11:37 AM To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Fireball over Kansas video Hello List Just came across this, looks like a fireball, what do you think? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgG7iOPG4G4&feature=sub Keith Chandler, Az From eric at meteoritesusa.com Sun Nov 1 17:20:38 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 14:20:38 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: 662 grams of Etched Muoinionalusta Message-ID: <4AEE09B6.8050900@meteoritesusa.com> Hi All, This is all I have left... Buy it now while it lasts. ETCHED MUONIONALUSTA SALE: 6 Beautifully etched part slices! http://www.meteoritesusa.com/muonionalusta-meteorites-for-sale.htm Free Shipping in the USA on orders over $50 I'll be sending out another notice when I get more material in. If you're looking for something specific please let me know, I may be able to help. Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorite USA 904-236-5394 Those of you NOT on my meteorite sale list, get on it now to receive advanced notice of these sales: http://www.meteoritesusa.com/newsletter/ From eric at meteoritesusa.com Sun Nov 1 17:25:53 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 14:25:53 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] On a Sad Note........... In-Reply-To: <80659e1a0911011121v4c3a0748nc3ddd44a8898f3be@mail.gmail.com> References: <80659e1a0911011121v4c3a0748nc3ddd44a8898f3be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AEE0AF1.4070406@meteoritesusa.com> I'm very sorry to hear of Jim's passing. My thoughts are with his family at this sad time. I never had the privilege of meeting him, I heard nothing but good things about him, and he was always helpful to me on the forums and via email. He will be missed... Regards, Eric Ruben Garcia wrote: > Hi all, > I was shocked, saddened, and surprised to learn that our good friend, > teacher, and meteorite hunter Jim Smaller - A.K.A. Paleface - passed > away on Oct 25th, 2009. For those of you that didn?t know Jim or never > had the opportunity to learn from or hunt with Jim you missed out. Jim > was never egotistical, self serving, or an attention seeker. Instead > he was a patient, kind and generous man that would go out of his way > to help or instruct anyone. Jim knew more about metal detecting than > anyone else I know and his may meteorite finds proved it. > > With the loss of Jim Kriegh I thought the meteorite world would never > be the same. With the loss of Jim Smaller it can't be. > > I just added Jim to my tribute page along with Jim Kriegh. > http://www.mr-meteorite.net/tributepage.htm > > From carothersdl at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 17:33:40 2009 From: carothersdl at gmail.com (dave carothers) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 17:33:40 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] On a Sad Note........... References: <80659e1a0911011121v4c3a0748nc3ddd44a8898f3be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <90791FC150DD4590B958A1EDBDE14C4E@your291etg47cr> While I did not have the pleasure of knowing Jim, I wish to extend my condolences and sincere sympathies to his family and friends. May he rest in peace. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruben Garcia" To: "Meteorite List" Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 2:21 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] On a Sad Note........... Hi all, I was shocked, saddened, and surprised to learn that our good friend, teacher, and meteorite hunter Jim Smaller - A.K.A. Paleface - passed away on Oct 25th, 2009. For those of you that didn?t know Jim or never had the opportunity to learn from or hunt with Jim you missed out. Jim was never egotistical, self serving, or an attention seeker. Instead he was a patient, kind and generous man that would go out of his way to help or instruct anyone. Jim knew more about metal detecting than anyone else I know and his may meteorite finds proved it. With the loss of Jim Kriegh I thought the meteorite world would never be the same. With the loss of Jim Smaller it can't be. I just added Jim to my tribute page along with Jim Kriegh. http://www.mr-meteorite.net/tributepage.htm -- Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Sun Nov 1 17:54:55 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 14:54:55 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] On a Sad Note........... In-Reply-To: <80659e1a0911011121v4c3a0748nc3ddd44a8898f3be@mail.gmail.com> References: <80659e1a0911011121v4c3a0748nc3ddd44a8898f3be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This is very sad news- I would like to give all my condolences to Jim's family.? He will surely be missed by many. Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 12:21:42 -0700 > From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] On a Sad Note........... > > Hi all, > I was shocked, saddened, and surprised to learn that our good friend, > teacher, and meteorite hunter Jim Smaller - A.K.A. Paleface - passed > away on Oct 25th, 2009. For those of you that didn?t know Jim or never > had the opportunity to learn from or hunt with Jim you missed out. Jim > was never egotistical, self serving, or an attention seeker. Instead > he was a patient, kind and generous man that would go out of his way > to help or instruct anyone. Jim knew more about metal detecting than > anyone else I know and his may meteorite finds proved it. > > With the loss of Jim Kriegh I thought the meteorite world would never > be the same. With the loss of Jim Smaller it can't be. > > I just added Jim to my tribute page along with Jim Kriegh. > http://www.mr-meteorite.net/tributepage.htm > > -- > Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) > > Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net > Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ > Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wl&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:112009 From mojave_meteorites at cox.net Sun Nov 1 18:01:04 2009 From: mojave_meteorites at cox.net (Rob Matson) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 15:01:04 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fireball over Kansas video -- faked or doctored? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Unfortunately, on closer review of that YouTube video, something is fishy: the "stars" are visible BELOW the horizon (e.g., in the grass on the bottom left). It's as if someone has superimposed a star field image on top of the background scene. This calls into question whether the bolide, too, has been doctored in. The star field itself is a bit odd; I can make out Cassiopeia at the top, left of center, but it's difficult to get the other stars in the scene to line up with known counterparts. In any case, I did check Wichita Doppler radar for the date/time in question, but saw nothing. --Rob From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Sun Nov 1 18:49:28 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 15:49:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] On a Sad Note........... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <322052.98655.qm@web46411.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> While I did not know of him, Its always sad to lose someone who has added to the field of meteorites. My best to his family and friends. Greg C. --- On Sun, 11/1/09, Greg Stanley wrote: > From: Greg Stanley > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] On a Sad Note........... > To: mrmeteorite at gmail.com, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sunday, November 1, 2009, 5:54 PM > > > > > > This is very sad news- I would like to give all my > condolences > to Jim's family.? He will surely be > missed by many. > Greg S. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 12:21:42 -0700 > > From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Subject: [meteorite-list] On a Sad Note........... > > > > Hi all, > > I was shocked, saddened, and surprised to learn that > our good friend, > > teacher, and meteorite hunter Jim Smaller - A.K.A. > Paleface - passed > > away on Oct 25th, 2009. For those of you that didn?t > know Jim or never > > had the opportunity to learn from or hunt with Jim you > missed out. Jim > > was never egotistical, self serving, or an attention > seeker. Instead > > he was a patient, kind and generous man that would go > out of his way > > to help or instruct anyone. Jim knew more about metal > detecting than > > anyone else I know and his may meteorite finds proved > it. > > > > With the loss of Jim Kriegh I thought the meteorite > world would never > > be the same. With the loss of Jim Smaller it can't > be. > > > > I just added Jim to my tribute page along with Jim > Kriegh. > > http://www.mr-meteorite.net/tributepage.htm > > > > -- > > Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) > > > > Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net > > Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ > > Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ??? > ???????? > ?????? ??? > ? > _________________________________________________________________ > New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wl&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:112009 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 1 19:12:34 2009 From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com (Melanie Matthews) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 16:12:34 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fireball over Kansas video -- faked or doctored? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 I think you're right - the ground=2C trees=2C buildings don't appear to lig= ht up along with the sky. These 2012 hiseria proponents getting desperate? = lol=20 ----------- Melanie IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what= you're gonna get! ---------------------------------------- > From: mojave_meteorites at cox.net > To: arizonakeith at cox.net=3B meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sun=2C 1 Nov 2009 15:01:04 -0800 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fireball over Kansas video -- faked or doct= ored? > > Unfortunately=2C on closer review of that YouTube video=2C something > is fishy: the "stars" are visible BELOW the horizon (e.g.=2C in the > grass on the bottom left). It's as if someone has superimposed a > star field image on top of the background scene. This calls into > question whether the bolide=2C too=2C has been doctored in. > > The star field itself is a bit odd=3B I can make out Cassiopeia at > the top=2C left of center=2C but it's difficult to get the other > stars in the scene to line up with known counterparts. In any > case=2C I did check Wichita Doppler radar for the date/time in > question=2C but saw nothing. --Rob > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list =20 _________________________________________________________________ Save up to 84% on Windows 7 until Jan 3=97eligible CDN College & University= students only. Hurry=97buy it now for $39.99! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D9691635= From countdeiro at earthlink.net Sun Nov 1 20:01:43 2009 From: countdeiro at earthlink.net (countdeiro at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 20:01:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meteorite-list] On a Sad Note........... Message-ID: <5123518.1257123703211.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Deepest regrets to the family and friends of James Smaller. Count Deiro -----Original Message----- >From: Greg Catterton >Sent: Nov 1, 2009 6:49 PM >To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] On a Sad Note........... > >While I did not know of him, Its always sad to lose someone who has added to the field of meteorites. >My best to his family and friends. > >Greg C. > >--- On Sun, 11/1/09, Greg Stanley wrote: > >> From: Greg Stanley >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] On a Sad Note........... >> To: mrmeteorite at gmail.com, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Date: Sunday, November 1, 2009, 5:54 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> This is very sad news- I would like to give all my >> condolences >> to Jim's family.? He will surely be >> missed by many. >> Greg S. >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> > Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 12:21:42 -0700 >> > From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com >> > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > Subject: [meteorite-list] On a Sad Note........... >> > >> > Hi all, >> > I was shocked, saddened, and surprised to learn that >> our good friend, >> > teacher, and meteorite hunter Jim Smaller - A.K.A. >> Paleface - passed >> > away on Oct 25th, 2009. For those of you that didn?t >> know Jim or never >> > had the opportunity to learn from or hunt with Jim you >> missed out. Jim >> > was never egotistical, self serving, or an attention >> seeker. Instead >> > he was a patient, kind and generous man that would go >> out of his way >> > to help or instruct anyone. Jim knew more about metal >> detecting than >> > anyone else I know and his may meteorite finds proved >> it. >> > >> > With the loss of Jim Kriegh I thought the meteorite >> world would never >> > be the same. With the loss of Jim Smaller it can't >> be. >> > >> > I just added Jim to my tribute page along with Jim >> Kriegh. >> > http://www.mr-meteorite.net/tributepage.htm >> > >> > -- >> > Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) >> > >> > Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net >> > Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ >> > Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u >> > ______________________________________________ >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> ??? >> ???????? >> ?????? ??? >> ? >> _________________________________________________________________ >> New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. >> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wl&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:112009 >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > > >______________________________________________ >http://www.meteoritecentral.com >Meteorite-list mailing list >Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From mikewren at gilanet.com Sun Nov 1 20:02:48 2009 From: mikewren at gilanet.com (michael cottingham) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 18:02:48 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: Over 50 Great Auctions Started, Several Buy It Nows That Are Deals and I need a NEW Home for a very special meteorite.... Message-ID: <688408B6-F86B-4D4A-9299-4EF103D32614@gilanet.com> Hello, This weeks Auctions are started- keep checking because they are loading for the next hour or more.... VERY MUCH worth a LOOK! See All here: http://shop.ebay.com:80/meteorite-collector/m.html?LH_Auction=1&_trksid=p3911.c0.m301 Also I have listed my PARK FOREST - BARNES- House Smasher with a very low price-the lowest I have ever offered on ebay! PARK FOREST- The Famous BARNES HOUSE SMASHER http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=190345802918 This Park Forest specimen needs to go to a serious private or museum collection. The potential for one of THE FINEST displays is all here with this stone and all the artifacts. None finer! One of the finest Seymchan slice out there! A VERY SERIOUS SPECIMEN! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220503665457 Also, BIG SPECIMEN-LOW PRICE! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=190345802631 Thanks and Best Wishes Michael Cottingham From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Sun Nov 1 20:26:00 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 17:26:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Mars Odyssey THEMIS Images: October 26-30, 2009 Message-ID: <200911020126.nA21Q0tF013265@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> MARS ODYSSEY THEMIS IMAGES October 26-30, 2009 o Aonia Terra Dunes (26 October 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091026a o Aonia Terra Dunes (27 October 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091027a o Kaiser Crater Dunes (28 October 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091028a o Kaiser Crater Dunes (29 October 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091029a o Rabe Crater Dunes (30 October 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091030a All of the THEMIS images are archived here: http://themis.asu.edu/latest.html NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory manages the 2001 Mars Odyssey mission for NASA's Office of Space Science, Washington, D.C. The Thermal Emission Imaging System (THEMIS) was developed by Arizona State University, Tempe, in co.oration with Raytheon Santa Barbara Remote Sensing. The THEMIS investigation is led by Dr. Philip Christensen at Arizona State University. Lockheed Martin Astronautics, Denver, is the prime contractor for the Odyssey project, and developed and built the orbiter. Mission operations are conducted jointly from Lockheed Martin and from JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena. From schraderj at rocketmail.com Sun Nov 1 21:02:50 2009 From: schraderj at rocketmail.com (Jack Schrader) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 18:02:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Jim Smaller Message-ID: <7268.93569.qm@web111006.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I never had the pleasure of meeting Jim Smaller but my son Devin was fortunate to know him personally.? Jim was truly one of the good guys in the meteorite world.? Devin was in the process of studying and classifying Sacramento Wash 005 and put out a list message?asking?for a possible donation of this material to the U of A for his research.? Jim Smaller was the first to respond to Devin's request.??Jim was more than happy to donate some of the pieces he had found, one of which was one of the larger pieces?found in the area.? Jim made this donation purely out of the goodness of his heart and never asked for any recognition or compensation.? Devin first met Jim while out hunting the Holbrook strewn field.? Devin's mother Kathleen wanted to find a Holbrook so she and Devin made the trip and ran into Jim in the strewn field.? Jim was encouraging and enthusiastic and more than willing to offer any and all information regarding the best spots to find stones in the strewn field to insure success for Devin and his Mother that day.? Devin has written a research paper on Sacramento Wash 005 to be published in 2010 and?he wishes to dedicate this publication to the memory of Jim Smaller.? Devin and I would like to convey our most profound condolences to the family and friends of Jim Smaller.? The meteorite world has lost a real friend and Jim will not be forgotten.? Devin and Jack Schrader From rocksfromspace at yahoo.com Sun Nov 1 23:56:04 2009 From: rocksfromspace at yahoo.com (Michael Johnson) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 20:56:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 2, 2009 Message-ID: <658844.75712.qm@web113013.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_2_2009.html From mexicodoug at aim.com Mon Nov 2 02:11:31 2009 From: mexicodoug at aim.com (Mexicodoug) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 02:11:31 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Solar Sail: Cosmos 2 (AD) Message-ID: <8CC29A2D66D61E4-AA8-7D1D@webmail-d067.sysops.aol.com> Dear List, Carl Sagan's 75th birthday anniversary is coming up. This fateful date is November 9, 2009. (Also the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall). The Planetary Society has been somewhat quiet about the Solar Sail project progress, but the project has always been promoted with Sagan's quote: "We have lingered for too long on the shores of the cosmic ocean; it's time to set sail for the stars." It seems they are leading up to a Sagan inspirational announcement on his birthday that concerns Cosmos 2, the replacement Solar Sailboat for the one that went down due to a failed booster stage from the launch of a modified Stingray ballistic missile launched by Calamari strategic nuclear submarine in 2005. This is at least the third try -there have been arguably others- after the Planetary Society's first attempt. Cosmos 1 in 2005 had 600 square meters [6,458 square feet] of sails). Then, NASA attempted a drop in the bucket mission in 2008 called NanoSail-D... It was a wee 9 square meters [100 square feet] of sail. NASA's experiment crashed with private industry's budget SpaceX Falcon 1 launch vehicle. The lower stage collided with active rocket as it continued thrusting after detachment and it went down with everything else aboard. The Planetary Society's total budget for Cosmos 1 was $4.1 million of hard earned money passing the hat around to dedicated space and planetary exploration enthusiasts and Sagan's dedicated widow, Ann Druyan. This is chump change in the administrative and political bureaucracy - just doesn't fit the mold as a forward-looking exploratory projects when everyone is being hammered for results yesterday. Cosmos 2 as a similar budget to Cosmo's 1, but it looks like they are trying to get it off the ground by knocking the cost down to a bit over half the original's cost after wheeling and dealing with NASA for the spare parts left over from the tiny NanoSail-D mission and possibly hitching a ride on a trustworthy Soyuz-Fregat booster in a smaller, lighter, but equally effective version as Cosmos 1 thanks to the collective experience and technology refinement since starting the initiatives. The great news is that the Discovery Channel ponied up US $250,000 and things seem to really be set to take off if all continues well. Cosmos 2 hopes to demonstrate the potential of Solar Sailing - a relatively unproven technology in the sense of steering with it and using it as the main propulsion and designing lightweight materials. (You can actully easily sail towards and away from the Sun). Solar Sailing was first demonstrated impressively in mission extending maneuvers for the Mariner 10 spacecraft at Mercury in 1974-75 by rotating the solar panels as sails and gaining several more superb passes at the swift planet. This technology has always been on a back burner with NASA; Russia has dabbled in it as well. Solar Sailing, which uses the pressure developed from light bouncing off a mirrored surface, is pretty weak - probably on the order of ion beam engine for thrust. But ... photons are "free" and even more can be delivered by lasers from Earth (it is hoped the mission can demonstrate accelerating Cosmos 2 by Earth based lasers, too). Think of photons as nanometeoroids and the propulsion system is even more thrilling. Critical to all missions is the weight and duration of all fuels. A well designed Solar Sail could accelerate from earth's orbit to the Kuiper Belt in just 4-5 years and be the fastest moving object produced by humankind in short order (One could possibly overtake Voyager 1 while it is still functioning id we were really serious). A minor detail or two needs to be ironed out (like getting lightweight, durable materials, but these "mere" technical issues will be hiccups). For everyone who has experienced the thrill of sailing, this is a beautiful adventure and everyone is invited to help and participate on the maiden sail. It is by far the closest we can come to financing a real space ship to prove a concept on a shoestring budget and a fraternity in participation with fellow space enthusiasts. (OK, it needs a boost beyond the atmosphere, but so does everyone else). Please help the project if you can toss some money into the hat while we have the opportunity to actually do something without huge corporation logos and NASA or other space agency bureaucracy (well, let's just say it's a classified ad and we are all David Topman and Chuck Masterson). Donations are just a PayPal button away and just could make your space-faring descendents proud to recall how you participated in the first Sail's flower petals finally unfurling and with a controlled prototype accelerating to higher orbits above Earth. Really a majestic story when you think about it. The payload includes excellent cameras to take in the Earthly views and the minutiae in profiling how the unfurling takes place - something that is not hammered out at this point and critical to future designs. Support is kindly appreciated - please join: https://planetary.org/join/donate/cos207 (just be sure to specify the "Solar Sailing" project.) Kindest wishes, Doug From dhill at lpl.arizona.edu Mon Nov 2 02:23:11 2009 From: dhill at lpl.arizona.edu (Dolores Hill) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:23:11 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] On a Sad Note........... In-Reply-To: <80659e1a0911011121v4c3a0748nc3ddd44a8898f3be@mail.gmail.com> References: <80659e1a0911011121v4c3a0748nc3ddd44a8898f3be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AEE88DF.2060100@lpl.arizona.edu> I am sorry to hear about Jim Smaller's passing. He was a kind, generous person who was genuinely interested in the meteorites he recovered. He was one of those people with a lot to brag about... who didn't. -Dolores Hill UA - Lunar & Planetary Lab Ruben Garcia wrote: > Hi all, > I was shocked, saddened, and surprised to learn that our good friend, > teacher, and meteorite hunter Jim Smaller - A.K.A. Paleface - passed > away on Oct 25th, 2009. For those of you that didn?t know Jim or never > had the opportunity to learn from or hunt with Jim you missed out. Jim > was never egotistical, self serving, or an attention seeker. Instead > he was a patient, kind and generous man that would go out of his way > to help or instruct anyone. Jim knew more about metal detecting than > anyone else I know and his may meteorite finds proved it. > > With the loss of Jim Kriegh I thought the meteorite world would never > be the same. With the loss of Jim Smaller it can't be. > > I just added Jim to my tribute page along with Jim Kriegh. > http://www.mr-meteorite.net/tributepage.htm > > From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Mon Nov 2 12:35:50 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 09:35:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Dawn Journal - October 31, 2009 Message-ID: <200911021735.nA2HZoE3028768@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/journal_10_31_09.asp Dawn Journal Dr. Marc Rayman October 31, 2009 Dear Dawn-o'-lanterns, Dawn continues to make steady progress on its journey through the solar system. The spacecraft has devoted another month to thrusting with its ion propulsion system, ever with its sights set on its rendezvous with Vesta in July 2011. While it will have other assignments along the way, propelling itself to the giant protoplanet deep in the main asteroid belt remains its principal responsibility. The asteroid belt consists of innumerable objects in orbit around the Sun between Mars and Jupiter. (Dawn is aiming for the 2 most massive members of the belt.) Just as with a ball of cotton or a cloud, while there may appear to be a clear border when viewed from a great distance, a more careful examination reveals it to be less distinct. There is no sharp edge to demarcate the boundary. For example, although most asteroids remain between the two planets, the orbits of some bring them closer to the Sun than Mars. We can adopt a part of one common definition in which, to be designated as a resident of the main asteroid belt, an object's orbit can bring it no closer to the Sun than 1.666 astronomical units (AU). It is not coincidental that this is the greatest distance that Mars travels from the Sun. (Earth and its inhabitants never reach more than 1.017 AU from the solar system's gravitational master.) As with Earth, Mars, and asteroids, Dawn's orbit around the Sun is elliptical. The principal difference is that the ship is constantly changing its course by emitting a high velocity beam of xenon ions. (It has racked up more than 10,000 hours of powered flight, with much more thrusting ahead.) In a lovely solar system dance in February, Dawn briefly partnered with Mars for additional assistance on its way. As we saw in the last log , the spacecraft's orbit grows larger as the mission progresses, bringing the explorer ever closer to its first destination. On November 13, it will enter the asteroid belt as its silent flight takes it past 1.666 AU from the Sun. It will remain in the belt for the rest of its mission and well beyond. Dawn will become a permanent inhabitant of that part of the solar system, the first emissary from Earth to take up residence in the main asteroid belt. The probe has been here before. On June 30, 2008 it passed the outermost part of Mars' orbit. But its elliptical path reached its greatest distance from the Sun of more than 1.68 AU on August 8, 2008, and 40 days after that, it crossed the orbit of Mars again. On April 17, 2009, then at 1.37 AU from the Sun, its momentum began carrying it outwards once again. By then it was in a larger orbit, and thanks to the extensive additional orbital energy imparted to the spacecraft by its persistent ion thrusting, it will sail smoothly through 1.68 AU next month and continue deeper into the asteroid belt. As Dawn continuously enlarges its solar orbit still more, mission controllers work diligently to ensure the distant craft remains healthy. They are also preparing to give it some additional tasks before the year is out, and inside sources reveal that these may be described in an upcoming log. In the meantime, emitting its eerie bluish glow, the probe silently streaks toward unexplored worlds, seeking to reveal new secrets and likely new questions as well. Dawn is 1.25 AU (187 million kilometers or 116 million miles) from Earth, or 485 times as far as the moon and 1.26 times as far as the Sun. Radio signals, traveling at the universal limit of the speed of light, take 21 minutes to make the round trip. Dr. Marc D. Rayman 11:30 pm PDT October 31, 2009 P.S. Although Dawn works tirelessly in interplanetary space, the team on Earth is taking a break for Halloween. Observant readers have already noticed that this correspondent has dawned his costume, and it is a delightful and impressive disguise indeed. In an act of astonishing creativity, he is pretending to be someone who can write a (relatively) short log. From raremeteorites at yahoo.com Mon Nov 2 12:36:33 2009 From: raremeteorites at yahoo.com (Adam Hupe) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 09:36:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Weekly AD - Auctions Ending - Great Stuff! Message-ID: <254248.16557.qm@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear List Members, I have several auctions due to end early this afternoon and tomorrow. Please take a look if you have time as there are many bargains to be had. All auctions can be found at this link: http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/raremeteorites!_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_mdoZ Thank you for looking and if you are bidding, good luck. Best Regards, ------------------------------------ Adam Hupe The Hupe Collection Team LunarRock IMCA 2185 raremeteorites at yahoo.com From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Mon Nov 2 16:27:57 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 16:27:57 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Earth giving birth to moon (And Email Posting Test) Message-ID: <20091102162757.HGFQP.572780.imail@eastrmwml45> Pete Shugar on Oct. 30, 2009, asked: ] "If I have the correct read on the hypothetical---- the moon would be only 200 ky old" Is this enough time for tidal action to bring the moon's rotation to a standstill" Just thinking......" No. The trouble is, as other people have pointed out, your question points out just one of innumerable easily documentable flaws in the ideas presented in the press release reveal the utter lack of knowledge of geology, astronomy, physics, and so forth of whoever wrote it. This article disguised as a press release reminds me of the worst of the class papers that I had to read and grade as a teaching assistant in undergraduate physical geology laboratory. Notice that Coleman's article about the "Big Bang Origin of the Moon" is not even an official article. Instead this article is just posted as a "press release" to Scoop.co.nz as a press release at http://www.scoop.co.nz/about/contact.html as: Peter Coleman: Big Bang Origin Of The Moon Wednesday, 28 October 2009, 4:39 pm Press Release: Peter Coleman http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/SC0910/S00066.htm As far as I have found googling, no newspaper has yet been crazy enough to print this press release as real news. My favorite line of evidence completely overlooked by whoever wrote this paper and various other catastrophists, who argue that the Moon is relatively young are ancient tidalites that demonstrate the presence of tides and, thus the Moon, as far back as 3.2 million years ago in the Precambrian. Some web pages are: Where the Moon was at, 3.2 billion years ago http://scienceblogs.com/highlyallochthonous/2007/07/where_the_moon_was_at_32_billi.php Ancient Tides Recorded in Indiana Rocks by Erik P. Kvale http://igs.indiana.edu/geology/ancient/tidaltime/index.cfm ftp://igs.indiana.edu/pub/pdfdocuments/tideslesson.pdf Tidal rhythmites and their implications by Rajat Mazumder and Makoto Arima http://www.mantleplumes.org/WebDocuments/MazumderESR2004.pdf An Analysis of Cyclic Tidal Deposits: Statistical Time Series Properties, Extraction of Earth-Moon Parameters, and Observed Intertidal Sedimentation by Christopher Lynn Coughenour http://idea.library.drexel.edu/bitstream/1860/3135/1/Coughenour_Christopher.pdf Implications of lunar orbital periodicity from the Chaibasa tidal rhythmite (India) of late Paleoproterozoic age by Rajat Mazumder http://www.mantleplumes.org/WebDocuments/GEOY-32-10-841.pdf 1997, Tidalites in Big Cottonwood Canyon, with Al Archer and Steve Greb, during Geological Society of America Salt Lake City Meeting http://donchesnut.com/travels/geologyfield/geologyfield.html#cottonwood Some random references: Adkins, R. M. and K. A. Eriksson, 1999, Rhythmic sedimentation in a mid-Pennsylvanian delta front succession, Four Corners Formation (Breathitt Group), eastern Kentucky: a near complete record of daily, semi-monthly and monthly tidal periodicities. in Tidalites: processes & products. Special publication no. 61. SEPM (Society for Sedimentary Geology). Tulsa, Oklahoma. Alexander, C. R., R. A. Davis and V. J. Henry, eds., 1998, Tidalites: processes & products. Special publication no. 61. SEPM (Society for Sedimentary Geology). Tulsa, Oklahoma. Archer, A. W., 1996. Reliability of lunar orbital periods extracted from ancient cyclic tidal rhythmites. Earth and Planetary Science Letters. vol. 141, pp. 1-10. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/0012-821X(96)00063-5 Archer, A. W., G. Kuecher, and E. P. Kvale, 1995. The role of tidal-velocity asymmetries in the deposition of silty tidal rhythmites (Carboniferous, Eastern Interior Coal Basin). Journal of Sedimentary Research. vol. A65, pp. 408-416. http://jsedres.sepmonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/65/2a/408 Chan, M. A., E. P. Kvale, A. W. Archer, and C. P. Sonett, 1994. Oldest direct evidence of lunar-solar tidal forcing encoded in sedimentary rhythmites, Proterozoic Big Cottonwood Formation, central Utah. Geology. vol. 22, pp. 791-794. http://geology.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/22/9/791 Coughenour, C. L., A. W. Archer, and K. J. Lacovara, 2009, Tides, tidalites, and secular changes in the Earth-Moon system. Earth-Science Reviews, In Press, Corrected Proof, Available online 3 October 2009 http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.earscirev.2009.09.002 Davis, R. A., 2006, Precambrian tidalites from the Baraboo Quartzite Wisconsin, U.S.A. Marine Geology. vol.?235,?no. 1-4, pp.?247-253. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.margeo.2006.10.018 Eriksson, K. A., 1977, Tidal deposits from the Archaean Moodies Group, Barberton Mountain Land, South Africa.? Sedimentary Geology. vol. 18, pp. 257-281. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/0037-0738(77)90015-X Eriksson, K. A., 1982, Tidalites. in Encyclopaedia of Science & Technology. McGraw-Hill, New york. Eriksson, K. A., and E. L. Simpson, 2000, Quantifying the oldest tidal record: The 3.2 Ga Moodies Group, Barberton Greenstone belt, South Africa. Geology. vol. 28, pp. 831-834 http://geology.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/28/9/831 Eriksson, K. A. and E. L. Simpson, 2004. Precambrian tidalites: recognition and significance. in The Precambrian Earth: Tempos and Events. Elsevier, New York. By the way: This is a test of my email posting from a non-Yahoo ISP. Somehow, the settings of the Yahoo email accounts changed in a way that introduced HTML into an email even when it is set to "plain text." Since I have not yet determined how to get rid of the HTML, I have moved to an email account on a non-Yahoo ISP. If anyone knows how to get rid of the HTML even in teh plain text setting, I would love to hear from you. Yours, Paul H. From meteoritekid at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 16:57:31 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:57:31 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Earth giving birth to moon (And Email Posting Test) In-Reply-To: <20091102162757.HGFQP.572780.imail@eastrmwml45> References: <20091102162757.HGFQP.572780.imail@eastrmwml45> Message-ID: <93aaac890911021357j4fa3897ft5be4b31b686e6f32@mail.gmail.com> Right, but that's the problem with what's being said in the first place; the author acknowledges the fact that much of what he's saying disagrees with conventional geology, and indeed, what most branches of science have led us to believe about the history of Earth. He accounts for this with several rather ridiculous claims - namely that the geological record was so upset by the expulsion of the moon that past scientists have simply been unable to correctly interpret what they have seen - and that we now know enough to finally set things right. Which means that you really can't quote past geologic papers because - as he says, they're all wrong. He might as well be starting up a new religion. Jason On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 1:27 PM, wrote: > Pete Shugar on Oct. 30, 2009, asked: > ] > "If I have the correct read on the hypothetical---- > the moon would be only 200 ky old" > Is this enough time for tidal action to > bring the moon's rotation to a standstill" > Just thinking......" > > No. > > The trouble is, as other people have pointed out, your > question points out just one of innumerable easily > documentable flaws in the ideas presented in the press > release reveal the utter lack of knowledge of geology, > astronomy, physics, and so forth of whoever wrote it. > This article disguised as a press release reminds me > of the worst of the class papers that I had to read and > grade as a teaching assistant in undergraduate physical > geology laboratory. > > Notice that Coleman's article about the "Big Bang > Origin of the Moon" is not even an official article. > Instead this article is just posted as a "press release" > to Scoop.co.nz as a press release at > http://www.scoop.co.nz/about/contact.html as: > > Peter Coleman: Big Bang Origin Of The Moon > Wednesday, 28 October 2009, 4:39 pm > Press Release: Peter Coleman > http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/SC0910/S00066.htm > > As far as I have found googling, no newspaper has yet > been crazy enough to print this press release as real > news. > > My favorite line of evidence completely overlooked by > whoever wrote this paper and various other catastrophists, > who argue that the Moon is relatively young are ancient > tidalites that demonstrate the presence of tides and, > thus the Moon, as far back as 3.2 million years ago in > the Precambrian. > > Some web pages are: > > Where the Moon was at, 3.2 billion years ago > http://scienceblogs.com/highlyallochthonous/2007/07/where_the_moon_was_at_32_billi.php > > Ancient Tides Recorded in Indiana Rocks by Erik P. Kvale > http://igs.indiana.edu/geology/ancient/tidaltime/index.cfm > ftp://igs.indiana.edu/pub/pdfdocuments/tideslesson.pdf > > Tidal rhythmites and their implications by Rajat Mazumder > and Makoto Arima > http://www.mantleplumes.org/WebDocuments/MazumderESR2004.pdf > > An Analysis of Cyclic Tidal Deposits: Statistical Time Series > Properties, Extraction of Earth-Moon Parameters, and Observed > Intertidal Sedimentation by Christopher Lynn Coughenour > http://idea.library.drexel.edu/bitstream/1860/3135/1/Coughenour_Christopher.pdf > > Implications of lunar orbital periodicity from the Chaibasa > tidal rhythmite (India) of late Paleoproterozoic age by Rajat > Mazumder > http://www.mantleplumes.org/WebDocuments/GEOY-32-10-841.pdf > > 1997, Tidalites in Big Cottonwood Canyon, with Al Archer and > Steve Greb, during Geological Society of America Salt Lake > City Meeting > http://donchesnut.com/travels/geologyfield/geologyfield.html#cottonwood > > Some random references: > > Adkins, R. M. and K. A. Eriksson, 1999, Rhythmic sedimentation > in a mid-Pennsylvanian delta front succession, Four Corners > Formation (Breathitt Group), eastern Kentucky: a near complete > record of daily, semi-monthly and monthly tidal periodicities. > in Tidalites: processes & products. Special publication no. 61. > SEPM (Society for Sedimentary Geology). Tulsa, Oklahoma. > > Alexander, C. R., R. A. Davis and V. J. Henry, eds., 1998, > Tidalites: processes & products. Special publication no. 61. > SEPM (Society for Sedimentary Geology). Tulsa, Oklahoma. > > Archer, A. W., 1996. Reliability of lunar orbital periods > extracted from ancient cyclic tidal rhythmites. Earth and > Planetary Science Letters. vol. 141, pp. 1-10. > http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/0012-821X(96)00063-5 > > Archer, A. W., G. Kuecher, and E. P. Kvale, 1995. The role > of tidal-velocity asymmetries in the deposition of silty > tidal rhythmites (Carboniferous, Eastern Interior Coal Basin). > Journal of Sedimentary Research. vol. A65, pp. 408-416. > http://jsedres.sepmonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/65/2a/408 > > Chan, M. A., E. P. Kvale, A. W. Archer, and C. P. Sonett, > 1994. Oldest direct evidence of lunar-solar tidal forcing > encoded in sedimentary rhythmites, Proterozoic Big Cottonwood > Formation, central Utah. Geology. vol. 22, pp. 791-794. > http://geology.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/22/9/791 > > Coughenour, C. L., A. W. Archer, and K. J. Lacovara, 2009, > Tides, tidalites, and secular changes in the Earth-Moon > system. Earth-Science Reviews, In Press, Corrected Proof, > Available online 3 October 2009 > http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.earscirev.2009.09.002 > > Davis, R. A., 2006, Precambrian tidalites from the Baraboo > Quartzite Wisconsin, U.S.A. Marine Geology. vol.?235,?no. 1-4, > pp.?247-253. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.margeo.2006.10.018 > > Eriksson, K. A., 1977, Tidal deposits from the Archaean > Moodies Group, Barberton Mountain Land, South Africa.? > Sedimentary Geology. vol. 18, pp. 257-281. > http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/0037-0738(77)90015-X > > Eriksson, K. A., 1982, Tidalites. in Encyclopaedia of > Science & Technology. McGraw-Hill, New york. > > Eriksson, K. A., and E. L. Simpson, 2000, Quantifying the > oldest tidal record: The 3.2 Ga Moodies Group, Barberton > Greenstone belt, South Africa. Geology. vol. 28, pp. 831-834 > http://geology.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/28/9/831 > > Eriksson, K. A. and E. L. Simpson, 2004. Precambrian > tidalites: recognition and significance. in The > Precambrian Earth: Tempos and Events. Elsevier, New > York. > > By the way: > > This is a test of my email posting from a non-Yahoo ISP. Somehow, > the settings of the Yahoo email accounts changed in a way that > introduced HTML into an email even when it is set to "plain text." > Since I have not yet determined how to get rid of the HTML, I have > moved to an email account on a non-Yahoo ISP. If anyone knows > how to get rid of the HTML even in teh plain text setting, I would > love to hear from you. > > Yours, > > Paul H. > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Mon Nov 2 17:39:18 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 14:39:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Bacteria Could Survive in Martian Soil Message-ID: <200911022239.nA2MdIhg010507@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> http://www.universetoday.com/2009/10/30/bacteria-could-survive-in-martian-soil/ Bacteria Could Survive in Martian Soil Written by Nicholos Wethington Universe Today October 30, 2009 Multiple missions have been sent to Mars with the hopes of testing the surface of the planet for life - or the conditions that could create life - on the Red Planet. The question of whether life in the form of bacteria (or something even more exotic!) exists on Mars is hotly debated, and still requires a resolute yes or no. Experiments done right here on Earth that simulate the conditions on Mars and their effects on terrestrial bacteria show that it is entirely possible for certain strains of bacteria to weather the harsh environment of Mars. A team led by Giuseppe Galletta of the Department of Astronomy at the University of Padova simulated the conditions present on Mars, and then introduced several strains of bacteria into the simulator to record their survival rate. The simulator - named LISA (Laboratorio Italiano Simulazione Ambienti - reproduced surface conditions on Mars, with temperatures ranging from +23 to -80 degrees Celsius (73 to -112 Fahrenheit), a 95% CO2 atmosphere at low pressures of 6 to 9 millibars, and very strong ultraviolet radiation. The results - some of the strains of bacteria were shown to survive up to 28 hours under these conditions, an amazing feat given that there is nowhere on the surface of the Earth where the temperatures get this low or the ultraviolet radiation is as strong as on Mars. Two of the strains of bacteria tested - Bacillus pumilus and Bacillus Nealsonii - are both commonly used in laboratory tests of extreme environmental factors and their effects on bacteria because of their ability to produce endospores when stressed. Endospores are internal structures of the bacteria that encapsulate the DNA and part of the cytoplasm in a thick wall, to prevent the DNA from being damaged. Galletta's team found that the vegetative cells of the bacteria died after only a few minutes, due to the low water content and high UV radiation. The endospores, however, were able to survive between 4 and 28 hours, even when exposed directly to the UV light. The researchers simulated the dusty surface of Mars by blowing volcanic ash or dust of red iron oxide on the samples. When covered with the dust, the samples showed an even higher percentage of survival, meaning that it's possible for a hardy bacterial strain to survive underneath the surface of the soil for very long periods of time. The deeper underneath the soil an organism is, the more hospitable the conditions become; water content increases, and the UV radiation is absorbed from the soil above. Given these findings, and all of the rich data that came in last year from the Phoenix lander - especially the discovery of perchlorates - continuing the search for life on Mars still seems a plausible endeavor. Though this surely isn't a confirmation of life on Mars, it shows that even life that isn't adapted to the conditions of the planet could potentially hold out against the extreme nature of the environment there, and bodes well for the possibility of Martian bacterial life forms. The LISA simulations also indicate the importance of avoiding cross-contamination of bacteria from Earth to Mars on any scientific missions that travel to the planet. In other words, when we finally are able to definitively test for life on our neighboring planet, we don't want to find out that our Earth bacteria have killed off all the native lifeforms! Sources: Arxiv papers: http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/0910.4830 http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/0706.0530 From spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 2 18:15:00 2009 From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com (Melanie Matthews) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 15:15:00 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?windows-1256?q?Ash_Creek_the_most_expensive_or?= =?windows-1256?q?dinary_chondrite=3F=FE?= Message-ID: Could Ash Creek/West Texas be the most expensive ordinary chondrite on the meteorite market (or one of the most expensive)? They seem to cost way more than Buzzard Coulees.. Sure it is still a pretty resent observed fall, but I get blown away by the prices per gram... Is it also because of its somewhat 'marbled' matrix? Guess it would be some time before I could obtain a decent specimen.. :D ----------- Melanie IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 ? Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get! _________________________________________________________________ Save up to 84% on Windows 7 until Jan 3?eligible CDN College & University students only. Hurry?buy it now for $39.99! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691635 From info at meteorites.com.au Mon Nov 2 18:32:05 2009 From: info at meteorites.com.au (Jeff Kuyken) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:32:05 +1100 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?windows-1256?q?Ash_Creek_the_most_expensive_or?= =?windows-1256?q?dinary_chondrite=3F=FE?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92551C19CE8B4E708EA4CCAFD2B2BD92@JeffPC> Hi Melanie, No... it's pricey but there are plenty that are more expensive. When available, historic falls and rare/special ordinary chondrites can often consistently sell for more. Ensisheim, Krymka, Semarkona, Sylacauga and even NWA's like NWA 2892/2748 will consistenly sell for more. It's just a case of supply vs demand. Cheers, Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melanie Matthews" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 10:15 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? > > Could Ash Creek/West Texas be the most expensive ordinary chondrite on > the meteorite market (or one of the most expensive)? They seem to cost way > more than Buzzard Coulees.. > Sure it is still a pretty resent observed fall, but I get blown away by > the prices per gram... Is it also because of its somewhat 'marbled' > matrix? > > Guess it would be some time before I could obtain a decent specimen.. :D > > ----------- > Melanie > IMCA: 2975 > eBay: metmel2775 > Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 > > Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know > what you're gonna get! > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Save up to 84% on Windows 7 until Jan 3?eligible CDN College & University > students only. Hurry?buy it now for $39.99! > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691635 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From cynapse at charter.net Mon Nov 2 18:13:49 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 18:13:49 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Dust in the wind In-Reply-To: <658844.75712.qm@web113013.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <658844.75712.qm@web113013.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-11/ci-pf110209.php 'Ultra-primitive' particles found in comet dust Washington, D.C.?Dust samples collected by high-flying aircraft in the upper atmosphere have yielded an unexpectedly rich trove of relicts from the ancient cosmos, report scientists from the Carnegie Institution. The stratospheric dust includes minute grains that likely formed inside stars that lived and died long before the birth of our sun, as well as material from molecular clouds in interstellar space. This "ultra-primitive" material likely wafted into the atmosphere after the Earth passed through the trail of an Earth-crossing comet in 2003, giving scientists a rare opportunity to study cometary dust in the laboratory. At high altitudes, most dust in the atmosphere comes from space, rather than the Earth's surface. Thousands of tons of interplanetary dust particles (IDPs) enter the atmosphere each year. "We've known that many IDPs come from comets, but we've never been able to definitively tie a single IDP to a particular comet," says study coauthor Larry Nittler, of Carnegie's Department of Terrestrial Magnetism. "The only known cometary samples we've studied in the laboratory are those that were returned from comet 81P/Wild 2 by the Stardust mission." The Stardust mission used a NASA-launched spacecraft to collect samples of comet dust, returning to Earth in 2006. Comets are thought to be repositories of primitive, unaltered matter left over from the formation of the solar system. Material held for eons in cometary ice has largely escaped the heating and chemical processing that has affected other bodies, such as the planets. However, the Wild 2 dust returned by the Stardust mission included more altered material than expected, indicating that not all cometary material is highly primitive. The IDPs used in the current study were collected by NASA aircraft in April 2003, after the Earth passed through the dust trail of comet Gregg-Skjellerup. The research team, which included Carnegie scientists Nittler, Henner Busemann (now at the University of Manchester, U.K.), Ann Nguyen, George Cody, and seven other colleagues, analyzed a sub-sample of the dust to determine the chemical, isotopic and microstructural composition of its grains. The results are reported on-line in Earth and Planetary Science Letters.* "What we found is that they are very different from typical IDPs" says Nittler. "They are more primitive, with higher abundances of material whose origin predates the formation of the solar system." The distinctiveness of the particles, plus the timing of their collection after the Earth's passing through the comet trail, point to their source being the Gregg-Skjellerup comet. "This is exciting because it allows us to compare on a microscopic scale in the laboratory dust particles from different comets," says Nittler. "We can use them as tracers for different processes that occurred in the solar system four-and-a-half billion years ago." The biggest surprise for the researchers was the abundance of so-called presolar grains in the dust sample. Presolar grains are tiny dust particles that formed in previous generations of stars and in supernova explosions before the formation of the solar system. Afterwards, they were trapped in our solar system as it was forming and are found today in meteorites and in IDPs. Presolar grains are identified by having extremely unusual isotopic compositions compared to anything else in the solar system. But presolar grains are generally extremely rare, with abundances of just a few parts per million in even the most primitive meteorites, and a few hundred parts per million in IDPs. "In the IDPs associated with comet Gregg-Skjellerup they are up to the percent level," says Nittler. "This is tens of times higher abundances than we see in other primitive materials." Also surprising is the comparison with the samples from Wild 2 collected by the Stardust mission. "Our samples seem to be much more primitive, much less processed, than the samples from Wild 2," says Nittler, "which might indicate that there is a huge diversity in the degree of processing of materials in different comets." From meteoritekid at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 18:52:41 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 15:52:41 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?utf-8?q?Ash_Creek_the_most_expensive_ordinary_?= =?utf-8?b?Y2hvbmRyaXRlP+KAjw==?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93aaac890911021552r1ceb1ed0t85c11a46c1684ac8@mail.gmail.com> Hello Melanie, It is indeed an expensive fall, but it is by no means the most expensive ordinary chondrite. Stones priced comparably include Ensisheim, and rarer european falls - too many to list. Other examples include Zunhua, Peekskill, Worden, Claxton, and the like - all of which were made somewhat more valuable when the cosmic forces that be pointed them towards various relicts of mankind. No, Ash Creek is an example of the sheer irrationality of the meteorite market. A fall from Morocco is worth $1-2/g, and a fall from North America is worth ten to twenty times that. Which raises the question - what makes a meteorite valuable? There are the obvious reasons - rarity of its classification, scientific importance, novelty appeal (eg, martians, lunars), aesthetic qualities, or perhaps its historic value. There are people who desire each of these traits in a meteorite, and as such, demand for each category determines relative prices. And there's overlap, etc. to keep in mind. Jeff also noted some unequilibrated chondrites. I wouldn't include such meteorites in a list of "ordinary chondrites" - especially when you're comparing pricing to an ordinary L6. Yes, they may be "ordinary," but to one who knows their scientific value, they're far from "ordinary." They're also much more uncommon in general; if a stone were to fall through my roof tomorrow, there's good reason I'd prefer it were an L3(.1) rather than an L6. I'd be happy with either one though....... With Ash Creek, I think the issue was as follows: first and foremost, many people made the journey to find their own stones. And not many of these people lived in third-world countries (and they were thus unaccustomed to getting very low prices for their meteorites). As such, prices started out high simply because you had finders who knew that they could ask $50-100/g for a stone and actually get it. But - of those who went, relatively few had the intent of selling their stones. Those who did were generally collectors who travelled there hoping to find enough material to cover their travel costs - and then to keep the remainder of their finds. So there wasn't much being sold, and most of the finds were being sold directly by finders as opposed to the typical market scenario where we see 1-2 dealers with 5-10kg each, purchased at low prices from the local population. So the finders were looking to make the most of their sales with very limited material: hence, even higher prices. In this case, the hype surrounding the fall was enough to overcome the heavy financial burden that the sellers were asking - the fact that most of the stones were generally very small also helped to get them sold. In other words, many people bought, say, 5g stones - instead of the 20-30g stone they could have gotten if it were a more reasonably priced fall. But prices seem to have leveled off at $20-30/g - on the high end for a non-african fall, but not overly exorbitant. It's about two times the average price for an American fall. In the end, I'm not really sure why that is now that demand seems to have deflated, but at the same time, I think that most visible prices reflect dealer listings at prices that were "more accurate" a few months ago. Regards, Jason 2009/11/2 Melanie Matthews : > > Could Ash Creek/West Texas be the most expensive ordinary chondrite on > the meteorite market (or one of the most expensive)? They seem to cost way more than Buzzard Coulees.. > Sure it is still a pretty resent observed fall, but I get blown away by > the prices per gram... Is it also because of its somewhat 'marbled' > matrix? > > Guess it would be some time before I could obtain a decent specimen.. :D > > ----------- > Melanie > IMCA: 2975 > eBay: metmel2775 > Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 > > Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get! > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Save up to 84% on Windows 7 until Jan 3?eligible CDN College & University students only. Hurry?buy it now for $39.99! > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691635 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From stm at bellsouth.net Mon Nov 2 19:04:55 2009 From: stm at bellsouth.net (Sean T. Murray) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 19:04:55 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Nininger autographs In-Reply-To: <93aaac890911021552r1ceb1ed0t85c11a46c1684ac8@mail.gmail.com> References: <93aaac890911021552r1ceb1ed0t85c11a46c1684ac8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Folks, If anyone on the list has a few examples of Nininger's autographs late in life (specifically around 1980-1985), could you please contact me off list, or send me a quick scan of the autograph(s)? Thank you, Sean Murray. From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Mon Nov 2 20:59:45 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 20:59:45 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?utf-8?q?Is_the_=22K=E2=80=93T_boundary=22_now_?= =?utf-8?b?dGhlICJL4oCTUGcgYm91bmRhcnkiID8/?= Message-ID: <20091102205945.0DC8H.586591.imail@eastrmwml41> Dear Listmembers, The people on this list, who work with the K-T Boundary might consider the likelyhood that the recent formal ratification of the Quaternary System/Period and the Pleistocene Series/Epoch systems has changes the "K-T Boundary" to the "K-Pg Boundary" As discussed by Gibbad et al. (2009), the formal ratification of the Quaternary System/Period and the Pleistocene Series/Epoch systems by the Executive Committee of the International Union of Geological Sciences (IUGS) has eliminated the "Tertiary" as a formally recognized Period. As a result, the Cenozoic Era is now divided into the Paleogene, Neogene, and Quaternary periods and the "Tertiary" has been completely abandoned as either a period or sub-era as shown in figure 1 of Gibbard et al. (2009). This means that that the "tertiary" has been stripped of any formal status in stratigraphic nomenclature. Thus, the "Cretaceous- Tertiary Boundary" is no longer recognized terminology and leaves the Cretaceous-Paleogene Boundary as the only officially sanctioned way in terms of stratigraphic nomenclature of designating this boundary. Reference Cited Gibbard , P L., M. J. Head , M. J. C. Walker, the Subcommission on Quaternary Stratigraphy, 2009, Formal ratification of the Quaternary System/Period and the Pleistocene Series/Epoch with a base at 2.58 Ma. Journal of Quaternary Science. Published Online: 22 Sep 2009 http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/122602421/abstract Yours, Paul H. From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Mon Nov 2 21:03:36 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 21:03:36 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Hypervelocity impacts and neutron spallation Message-ID: <20091102210336.JKG8O.586671.imail@eastrmwml41> On Oct. 30, 2009 and in Hypervelocity impacts and neutron spallation ( http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2009-October/057772.html ) E.P. Grondine wrote: "This would all be blue sky, but for those 14C spikes... Chris, I think I got the copy of the INTCAL98 chart from one of Firestone's papers. Stuiver and Volcker (working with Iceland marine data) were cited as the data sources. Firestone did not create the INTCAL98 chart. The bumps around 10,900 BCE were what set Firestone off on his search to find their source, which led him at first to a nearby supernova and finally to impact." First a good reference on radiocarbon dating and calibration is: Hajdas, I., C. Kull, and T. Kiefer, 2006, 14C-Chronology. PAGES News. vol. 14, no. 3. http://www.pages-igbp.org/cgi-bin/WebObjects/products.woa/wa/product"id=276 15 MB version http://www.pages-igbp.org/products/newsletters/NL2006_3high_res.pdf 4 MB version http://www.pages-igbp.org/products/newsletters/NL2006_3low_res.pdf Full references http://www.pages-igbp.org/products/newsletters/ref2006_3.html In the above publication, there is an article, "Cosmogenic isotope 14C: Production and carbon cycle" by K. Hugen, that discusses the processes that created the radiocarbon spikes. He states that the changes in 14C concentration (14C) are "due to changes in either the rate of 14C production in the atmosphere (a function of geomagnetic field intensity and solar variability), or the distribution of 14C between different reservoirs in the global carbon cycle (primarily deep ocean ventilation). In the Greenland ice cores there is a strong correlation between the production of beryllium 10 and 14C, which demonstrates that the radiocarbon spikes are related to changes in the geomagnetic field intensity associated with the Laschamp and Mono Lake geomagnetic minima." Some relevant papers are: Hughen, K., S. Lehman, J. Southon, J. Overpeck, O. Marchal, C. Herring, and J. Turnbull, 2004, 14C Activity and Global Carbon Cycle Changes over the Past 50,000 Years. Science. vol. 303, no. 5655, pp. 202-207 DOI: 10.1126/science.1090300 http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/303/5655/202 http://courses.washington.edu/proxies/Hughen-Cariaco_14C_0-50ka_Sci04.pdf The abstract, in part, for this paper reads: "Reconstructed 14C activities varied substantially during the last glacial period, including sharp peaks synchronous with the Laschamp and Mono Lake geomagnetic field intensity minimal and cosmogenic nuclide peaks in ice cores and marine sediments. Simulations with a geochemical box model suggest that much of the variability can be explained by geomagnetically modulated changes in 14C production rate together with plausible changes in deep-ocean ventilation and the global carbon cycle during glaciation." Hughen, K. A., J. R. Southon, S. J. Lehman, and J. T. Overpeck, 2000, Synchronous Radiocarbon and Climate Shifts During the Last Deglaciation. Science. vol. 290, pp. 1951-1954. http://www.whoi.edu/cms/files/llippsett/2007/1/1951_17123.pdf https://darchive.mblwhoilibrary.org/browse?value=Hughen%2C+K.&type=author It abstract states: "Carbon-14 and published beryllium-10 data together suggest that concurrent climate and carbon-14 changes were predominantly the result of abrupt shifts in deep ocean ventilation." Chiua, T.-C., R. G. Fairbanks, L. Cao, and R. A. Mortlock, 2007, Analysis of the atmospheric 14C record spanning the past 50,000 years derived from high- precision 230Th/234U/238U, 231Pa/235U and 14C dates on fossil corals. Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 26, no. 1-2, pp. 18-36. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.quascirev.2006.06.015 http://radiocarbon.ldeo.columbia.edu/pubs/2007_Chiu.pdf Muscheler, R., J. Beer, P. W. Kubik, and H. A. Synal, 2005, Geomagnetic field intensity during the last 60,000 years based on 10Be and 36Cl from the Summit ice cores and 14C. Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 24, pp. 1849-1860. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.quascirev.2005.01.012 Ice Core Data on Climate and Cosmic Ray Changes by Dr. J. Beer, Federal Institute of Environmental Science and Technology, EAWAG, CH-8600 Dubendorf, Switzerland. http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/557154/files/p3.pdf The caption to Figure 7 of the above paper states: "Figure 7: 14C peaks corresponding to periods of low solar activity and possibly also reduced solar irradiance." Ramsey, C. B., 2008, Radiocarbon Dating: Revolution' in Understanding. Archaeometry. vol. 50, no. 2, pp. 249-275. http://www.arch.unipi.it/Arias/Materiali_Web/Radiocarbonio/Ramsey_2008_C14%20dating A number of papers about radiocarbon calibration can be found in "Prof. Richard Fairbanks Publications" at; http://www.radiocarbon.ldeo.columbia.edu/publications/index.htm Yours, Paul H. From mail at mhmeteorites.com Mon Nov 2 21:11:57 2009 From: mail at mhmeteorites.com (Matt Morgan) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 02:11:57 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?windows-1252?q?Is_the_=22K=96T_boundary=22_now?= =?windows-1252?q?_the_=22K=96Pg_boundary=22_=3F=3F?= Message-ID: <1164789137-1257214397-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2143953346-@bda677.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Not many in the scientific community I work with seem to care about this change. We still call it the Tertiary. Matt ------Original Message------ From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net Sender: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Is the "K?T boundary" now the "K?Pg boundary" ?? Sent: Nov 2, 2009 6:59 PM Dear Listmembers, The people on this list, who work with the K-T Boundary might consider the likelyhood that the recent formal ratification of the Quaternary System/Period and the Pleistocene Series/Epoch systems has changes the "K-T Boundary" to the "K-Pg Boundary" As discussed by Gibbad et al. (2009), the formal ratification of the Quaternary System/Period and the Pleistocene Series/Epoch systems by the Executive Committee of the International Union of Geological Sciences (IUGS) has eliminated the "Tertiary" as a formally recognized Period. As a result, the Cenozoic Era is now divided into the Paleogene, Neogene, and Quaternary periods and the "Tertiary" has been completely abandoned as either a period or sub-era as shown in figure 1 of Gibbard et al. (2009). This means that that the "tertiary" has been stripped of any formal status in stratigraphic nomenclature. Thus, the "Cretaceous- Tertiary Boundary" is no longer recognized terminology and leaves the Cretaceous-Paleogene Boundary as the only officially sanctioned way in terms of stratigraphic nomenclature of designating this boundary. Reference Cited Gibbard , P L., M. J. Head , M. J. C. Walker, the Subcommission on Quaternary Stratigraphy, 2009, Formal ratification of the Quaternary System/Period and the Pleistocene Series/Epoch with a base at 2.58 Ma. Journal of Quaternary Science. Published Online: 22 Sep 2009 http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/122602421/abstract Yours, Paul H. ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ---------------------- Matt Morgan Mile High Meteorites http://www.mhmeteorites.com P.O. Box 151293 Lakewood, CO 80215 USA From lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu Mon Nov 2 22:06:04 2009 From: lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu (lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 20:06:04 -0700 (MST) Subject: [meteorite-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Is_the_=22K=E2=80=93T_boundary=22?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_now_the_=22K=E2=80=93Pg_boundary=22_=3F_=3F?= In-Reply-To: <20091102205945.0DC8H.586591.imail@eastrmwml41> References: <20091102205945.0DC8H.586591.imail@eastrmwml41> Message-ID: Hi Paul: Yes, I was aware of this. I was working with another associate on a "Cratering" workshop for teachers and she used the term K-P boundary. She had to explain it to me and I had to make sure that she needed to explain this to the teachers and not just throw the term out at them. So is it P or Pg? Larry > Dear Listmembers, > > The people on this list, who work with the K-T Boundary might > consider the likelyhood that the recent formal ratification of the > Quaternary System/Period and the Pleistocene Series/Epoch > systems has changes the "K-T Boundary" to the "K-Pg Boundary" > As discussed by Gibbad et al. (2009), the formal ratification of > the Quaternary System/Period and the Pleistocene Series/Epoch > systems by the Executive Committee of the International Union > of Geological Sciences (IUGS) has eliminated the "Tertiary" as a > formally recognized Period. As a result, the Cenozoic Era is now > divided into the Paleogene, Neogene, and Quaternary periods and > the "Tertiary" has been completely abandoned as either a period > or sub-era as shown in figure 1 of Gibbard et al. (2009). This > means that that the "tertiary" has been stripped of any formal > status in stratigraphic nomenclature. Thus, the "Cretaceous- > Tertiary Boundary" is no longer recognized terminology and > leaves the Cretaceous-Paleogene Boundary as the only officially > sanctioned way in terms of stratigraphic nomenclature of > designating this boundary. > > Reference Cited > > Gibbard , P L., M. J. Head , M. J. C. Walker, the Subcommission > on Quaternary Stratigraphy, 2009, Formal ratification of the > Quaternary System/Period and the Pleistocene Series/Epoch > with a base at 2.58 Ma. Journal of Quaternary Science. > Published Online: 22 Sep 2009 > > http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/122602421/abstract > > Yours, > > Paul H. > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From almitt at kconline.com Mon Nov 2 21:42:54 2009 From: almitt at kconline.com (al mitt) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 21:42:54 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?windows-1256?q?Ash_Creek_the_most_expensive_or?= =?windows-1256?q?dinary_chondrite=3F=FE?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76293C062F7745C2AF2BC32896CC6DF9@StarmanPC> Hi Melanie and all, Noblesville, Indiana is priced around $125 to $200 if you can find it. Sold for that when it came on the market about ten years ago. Low total weight usually makes a find or fall higher price. Watch out for the frauds putting look alike Ash Creek on eBay. Best! --AL Mitterling ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melanie Matthews" To: Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:15 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? > > Could Ash Creek/West Texas be the most expensive ordinary chondrite on > the meteorite market (or one of the most expensive)? They seem to cost way > more than Buzzard Coulees.. > Sure it is still a pretty resent observed fall, but I get blown away by > the prices per gram... Is it also because of its somewhat 'marbled' > matrix? > > Guess it would be some time before I could obtain a decent specimen.. :D > > ----------- > Melanie > IMCA: 2975 > eBay: metmel2775 > Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 From meteoritekid at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 22:21:39 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 19:21:39 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?utf-8?q?Ash_Creek_the_most_expensive_ordinary_?= =?utf-8?b?Y2hvbmRyaXRlP+KAjw==?= In-Reply-To: <76293C062F7745C2AF2BC32896CC6DF9@StarmanPC> References: <76293C062F7745C2AF2BC32896CC6DF9@StarmanPC> Message-ID: <93aaac890911021921uc803ce6g6d837ff5facffe9a@mail.gmail.com> The only fakes that I could find were listed here: http://shop.ebay.com/oldschool-av/m.html?_nkw=meteorite&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3911.m270.l1313&_odkw=&_osacat=0 But they hardly look like meteorites at all - same goes for the rest of the crap "oldschool-av" is selling. The oxide specimens to look like oxide, but that's about it - even his impatite specimens are crap. Best to stay away from his auctions... Jason 2009/11/2 al mitt : > Hi Melanie and all, > > Noblesville, Indiana is priced around $125 to $200 if you can find it. Sold > for that when it came on the market about ten years ago. Low total weight > usually makes a find or fall higher price. > > Watch out for the frauds putting look alike Ash Creek on eBay. Best! > > --AL Mitterling > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melanie Matthews" > > To: > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:15 PM > Subject: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? > > >> >> Could Ash Creek/West Texas be the most expensive ordinary chondrite on >> the meteorite market (or one of the most expensive)? They seem to cost way >> more than Buzzard Coulees.. >> Sure it is still a pretty resent observed fall, but I get blown away by >> the prices per gram... Is it also because of its somewhat 'marbled' >> matrix? >> >> Guess it would be some time before I could obtain a decent specimen.. :D >> >> ----------- >> Melanie >> IMCA: 2975 >> eBay: metmel2775 >> Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 2 20:50:39 2009 From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com (ensoramanda at ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 1:50:39 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Dust in the wind In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20091103015039.TFI2T.251273.root@web01-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Hi Darren, All, and here is where the detail is...sorry about the long link...never have figured out how to make those short links!! http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:UCwD2iKBCesJ:www.dtm.ciw.edu/users/nittler/preprints/Busemann2009EPSL.pdf+*Busemann,+H.,+et+al.,+Ultra-primitive+interplanetary+dust+particles+from+the+comet+26P/Grigg%E2%80%93Skjellerup+dust+stream+collection,+Earth+Planet.+Sci.+Lett.+(2009),+doi:10.1016/j.epsl.2009.09.007&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgM5kH7cXN7mr3Fi2-a0t_e6k4x_4CtwCzFw95JP96axFpuafqTzeMji9qnO9121azGdv-IPp2M6dxaXlZunUbm8f0oftwb1g_skGOPr2omUnnPrkic7ewhIXjgbfCizPQUpWxH&sig=AFQjCNEIVrqaqzoT7PnhncC1OXm4Y_o3fQ Graham, UK ---- Darren Garrison wrote: > http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-11/ci-pf110209.php > > 'Ultra-primitive' particles found in comet dust > > Washington, D.C.?Dust samples collected by high-flying aircraft in the upper > atmosphere have yielded an unexpectedly rich trove of relicts from the ancient > cosmos, report scientists from the Carnegie Institution. The stratospheric dust > includes minute grains that likely formed inside stars that lived and died long > before the birth of our sun, as well as material from molecular clouds in > interstellar space. This "ultra-primitive" material likely wafted into the > atmosphere after the Earth passed through the trail of an Earth-crossing comet > in 2003, giving scientists a rare opportunity to study cometary dust in the > laboratory. > > At high altitudes, most dust in the atmosphere comes from space, rather than the > Earth's surface. Thousands of tons of interplanetary dust particles (IDPs) enter > the atmosphere each year. "We've known that many IDPs come from comets, but > we've never been able to definitively tie a single IDP to a particular comet," > says study coauthor Larry Nittler, of Carnegie's Department of Terrestrial > Magnetism. "The only known cometary samples we've studied in the laboratory are > those that were returned from comet 81P/Wild 2 by the Stardust mission." The > Stardust mission used a NASA-launched spacecraft to collect samples of comet > dust, returning to Earth in 2006. > > Comets are thought to be repositories of primitive, unaltered matter left over > from the formation of the solar system. Material held for eons in cometary ice > has largely escaped the heating and chemical processing that has affected other > bodies, such as the planets. However, the Wild 2 dust returned by the Stardust > mission included more altered material than expected, indicating that not all > cometary material is highly primitive. > > The IDPs used in the current study were collected by NASA aircraft in April > 2003, after the Earth passed through the dust trail of comet Gregg-Skjellerup. > The research team, which included Carnegie scientists Nittler, Henner Busemann > (now at the University of Manchester, U.K.), Ann Nguyen, George Cody, and seven > other colleagues, analyzed a sub-sample of the dust to determine the chemical, > isotopic and microstructural composition of its grains. The results are reported > on-line in Earth and Planetary Science Letters.* > > "What we found is that they are very different from typical IDPs" says Nittler. > "They are more primitive, with higher abundances of material whose origin > predates the formation of the solar system." The distinctiveness of the > particles, plus the timing of their collection after the Earth's passing through > the comet trail, point to their source being the Gregg-Skjellerup comet. > > "This is exciting because it allows us to compare on a microscopic scale in the > laboratory dust particles from different comets," says Nittler. "We can use them > as tracers for different processes that occurred in the solar system > four-and-a-half billion years ago." > > The biggest surprise for the researchers was the abundance of so-called presolar > grains in the dust sample. Presolar grains are tiny dust particles that formed > in previous generations of stars and in supernova explosions before the > formation of the solar system. Afterwards, they were trapped in our solar system > as it was forming and are found today in meteorites and in IDPs. Presolar grains > are identified by having extremely unusual isotopic compositions compared to > anything else in the solar system. But presolar grains are generally extremely > rare, with abundances of just a few parts per million in even the most primitive > meteorites, and a few hundred parts per million in IDPs. "In the IDPs associated > with comet Gregg-Skjellerup they are up to the percent level," says Nittler. > "This is tens of times higher abundances than we see in other primitive > materials." > > Also surprising is the comparison with the samples from Wild 2 collected by the > Stardust mission. "Our samples seem to be much more primitive, much less > processed, than the samples from Wild 2," says Nittler, "which might indicate > that there is a huge diversity in the degree of processing of materials in > different comets." > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From lintonius at earthlink.net Tue Nov 3 02:08:54 2009 From: lintonius at earthlink.net (Linton Rohr) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 23:08:54 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?utf-8?q?Ash_Creek_the_most_expensive_ordinary_?= =?utf-8?b?Y2hvbmRyaXRlP+KAjw==?= References: <76293C062F7745C2AF2BC32896CC6DF9@StarmanPC> <93aaac890911021921uc803ce6g6d837ff5facffe9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C1D505666B447F6807027F1C5E2F4DE@D190TH71> Hehehehe. Looks pretty legit to me, Jason. The West/Ash Creek looks really.... uh, different. But I especially like the $1,900 meteoric guitar pick... "Sculpture "Relic" meteorite guitar pick for the master." "Freak of nature and craft" "There won?t be too many of these floating around? This is the first one. The next one is made at a time of my choice. This is art..." Uhhh....yeah...art...fraud...it's all good. Linton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Utas" To: "Meteorite-list" Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 7:21 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list]Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? > The only fakes that I could find were listed here: > > http://shop.ebay.com/oldschool-av/m.html?_nkw=meteorite&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3911.m270.l1313&_odkw=&_osacat=0 > > But they hardly look like meteorites at all - same goes for the rest > of the crap "oldschool-av" is selling. The oxide specimens to look > like oxide, but that's about it - even his impatite specimens are > crap. > Best to stay away from his auctions... > Jason > > 2009/11/2 al mitt : >> Hi Melanie and all, >> >> Noblesville, Indiana is priced around $125 to $200 if you can find it. >> Sold >> for that when it came on the market about ten years ago. Low total weight >> usually makes a find or fall higher price. >> >> Watch out for the frauds putting look alike Ash Creek on eBay. Best! >> >> --AL Mitterling >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melanie Matthews" >> >> To: >> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:15 PM >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary >> chondrite?? >> >> >>> >>> Could Ash Creek/West Texas be the most expensive ordinary chondrite on >>> the meteorite market (or one of the most expensive)? They seem to cost >>> way >>> more than Buzzard Coulees.. >>> Sure it is still a pretty resent observed fall, but I get blown away by >>> the prices per gram... Is it also because of its somewhat 'marbled' >>> matrix? >>> >>> Guess it would be some time before I could obtain a decent specimen.. :D >>> >>> ----------- >>> Melanie >>> IMCA: 2975 >>> eBay: metmel2775 >>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From lintonius at earthlink.net Tue Nov 3 02:26:20 2009 From: lintonius at earthlink.net (Linton Rohr) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 23:26:20 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? References: <93aaac890911021552r1ceb1ed0t85c11a46c1684ac8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1C56003D5ACF47E9A7B39F5EC9EED3D0@D190TH71> Good answers already, Melanie. Let me just add that, unless I'm mistaken, it's not all that common to have video footage of the (daytime) fireball that gave birth to your specimen. Keep in mind, too, that prices on West/Ash Creek have dropped significantly since last February/March. Being a relative newcomer to the scene, I got very excited that a couple of my new friends from the Tucson show were tramping around in Texas finding these freshly fallen chondrites. I probably paid more than I should have, but I was eager to hold in my hands, the newest, freshest visitor to planet Earth. If I could do it all over again, I'd have jumped in the car, and high tailed it to Texas! Oh well, next time for sure! Linton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Utas" To: "Meteorite-list" Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list]Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? Hello Melanie, It is indeed an expensive fall, but it is by no means the most expensive ordinary chondrite. Stones priced comparably include Ensisheim, and rarer european falls - too many to list. Other examples include Zunhua, Peekskill, Worden, Claxton, and the like - all of which were made somewhat more valuable when the cosmic forces that be pointed them towards various relicts of mankind. No, Ash Creek is an example of the sheer irrationality of the meteorite market. A fall from Morocco is worth $1-2/g, and a fall from North America is worth ten to twenty times that. Which raises the question - what makes a meteorite valuable? There are the obvious reasons - rarity of its classification, scientific importance, novelty appeal (eg, martians, lunars), aesthetic qualities, or perhaps its historic value. There are people who desire each of these traits in a meteorite, and as such, demand for each category determines relative prices. And there's overlap, etc. to keep in mind. Jeff also noted some unequilibrated chondrites. I wouldn't include such meteorites in a list of "ordinary chondrites" - especially when you're comparing pricing to an ordinary L6. Yes, they may be "ordinary," but to one who knows their scientific value, they're far from "ordinary." They're also much more uncommon in general; if a stone were to fall through my roof tomorrow, there's good reason I'd prefer it were an L3(.1) rather than an L6. I'd be happy with either one though....... With Ash Creek, I think the issue was as follows: first and foremost, many people made the journey to find their own stones. And not many of these people lived in third-world countries (and they were thus unaccustomed to getting very low prices for their meteorites). As such, prices started out high simply because you had finders who knew that they could ask $50-100/g for a stone and actually get it. But - of those who went, relatively few had the intent of selling their stones. Those who did were generally collectors who travelled there hoping to find enough material to cover their travel costs - and then to keep the remainder of their finds. So there wasn't much being sold, and most of the finds were being sold directly by finders as opposed to the typical market scenario where we see 1-2 dealers with 5-10kg each, purchased at low prices from the local population. So the finders were looking to make the most of their sales with very limited material: hence, even higher prices. In this case, the hype surrounding the fall was enough to overcome the heavy financial burden that the sellers were asking - the fact that most of the stones were generally very small also helped to get them sold. In other words, many people bought, say, 5g stones - instead of the 20-30g stone they could have gotten if it were a more reasonably priced fall. But prices seem to have leveled off at $20-30/g - on the high end for a non-african fall, but not overly exorbitant. It's about two times the average price for an American fall. In the end, I'm not really sure why that is now that demand seems to have deflated, but at the same time, I think that most visible prices reflect dealer listings at prices that were "more accurate" a few months ago. Regards, Jason 2009/11/2 Melanie Matthews : > > Could Ash Creek/West Texas be the most expensive ordinary chondrite on > the meteorite market (or one of the most expensive)? They seem to cost way > more than Buzzard Coulees.. > Sure it is still a pretty resent observed fall, but I get blown away by > the prices per gram... Is it also because of its somewhat 'marbled' > matrix? > > Guess it would be some time before I could obtain a decent specimen.. :D > > ----------- > Melanie > IMCA: 2975 > eBay: metmel2775 > Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 > > Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know > what you're gonna get! > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Save up to 84% on Windows 7 until Jan 3?eligible CDN College & University > students only. Hurry?buy it now for $39.99! > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691635 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From rocksfromspace at yahoo.com Tue Nov 3 08:33:31 2009 From: rocksfromspace at yahoo.com (Michael Johnson) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 05:33:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 3, 2009 Message-ID: <732732.76895.qm@web113008.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_3_2009.html From countdeiro at earthlink.net Tue Nov 3 10:57:45 2009 From: countdeiro at earthlink.net (countdeiro at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:57:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meteorite-list] =?utf-8?q?Ash_Creek_the_most_expensive_ordinary_?= =?utf-8?b?Y2hvbmRyaXRlP+KAjw==?= Message-ID: <6731660.1257263865609.JavaMail.root@wamui-cynical.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Good morning, afternoon, or evening...as the case may be, The ersatz material Jason called attention to this morning proves the adage "that a sucker is born every minute." These frauds are damaging to all who are engaged in the field of meteoritics whether it's collecting, study, display, trade or sale, as a avacation or lively hood. The question is...do the experts on the List feel any obligation to take more comprehensive action to inform the potential victims of these rascals? And what would those actions be if a Listee was so inclined? Count Deiro -----Original Message----- >From: Jason Utas >Sent: Nov 2, 2009 10:21 PM >To: Meteorite-list >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? > >The only fakes that I could find were listed here: > >http://shop.ebay.com/oldschool-av/m.html?_nkw=meteorite&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3911.m270.l1313&_odkw=&_osacat=0 > >But they hardly look like meteorites at all - same goes for the rest >of the crap "oldschool-av" is selling. The oxide specimens to look >like oxide, but that's about it - even his impatite specimens are >crap. >Best to stay away from his auctions... >Jason > >2009/11/2 al mitt : >> Hi Melanie and all, >> >> Noblesville, Indiana is priced around $125 to $200 if you can find it. Sold >> for that when it came on the market about ten years ago. Low total weight >> usually makes a find or fall higher price. >> >> Watch out for the frauds putting look alike Ash Creek on eBay. Best! >> >> --AL Mitterling >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melanie Matthews" >> >> To: >> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:15 PM >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? >> >> >>> >>> Could Ash Creek/West Texas be the most expensive ordinary chondrite on >>> the meteorite market (or one of the most expensive)? They seem to cost way >>> more than Buzzard Coulees.. >>> Sure it is still a pretty resent observed fall, but I get blown away by >>> the prices per gram... Is it also because of its somewhat 'marbled' >>> matrix? >>> >>> Guess it would be some time before I could obtain a decent specimen.. :D >>> >>> ----------- >>> Melanie >>> IMCA: 2975 >>> eBay: metmel2775 >>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >______________________________________________ >http://www.meteoritecentral.com >Meteorite-list mailing list >Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Tue Nov 3 11:56:15 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 11:56:15 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?utf-8?q?Ash_Creek_the_most_expensive_ordinary_?= =?utf-8?b?Y2hvbmRyaXRlP+KAjw==?= Message-ID: <20091103115615.ZVZ97.630645.imail@eastrmwml31> Count Deiro wrote: ?Good morning, afternoon, or evening...as the case may be, The ersatz material Jason called attention to this morning proves the adage "that a sucker is born every minute." These frauds are damaging to all who are engaged in the field of meteoritics whether it's collecting, study, display, trade or sale, as a avacation or lively hood. The question is...do the experts on the List feel any obligation to take more comprehensive action to inform the potential victims of these rascals? And what would those actions be if a Listee was so inclined?? The fundamental problem anyone, who engages in such action, regardless of the truthfulness of their opinions, is going to be vulnerable to all sort of lawsuits. Even if a lawsuit for either libel or defamation is bogus, it can still be very costly in time and money.That is why SLLAP lawsuits work all too well. Regards, Paul From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Tue Nov 3 12:18:20 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 09:18:20 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?windows-1256?q?Ash_Creek_the_most_expensive_or?= =?windows-1256?q?dinary_chondrite=3F=FE?= In-Reply-To: <20091103115615.ZVZ97.630645.imail@eastrmwml31> References: <20091103115615.ZVZ97.630645.imail@eastrmwml31> Message-ID: All: I think the reason Ash Creek has a higher value is because of the publicity.? It was major news among the meteorite community; even outside the meteorite community.? Also, it was the first fall/find that occurred in the US for a number of years, and was captued on video.? This all created the increased interest and demand, and thus increased the price.? The Buzzard Coulee meteorite was also much larger (TKW) and did not receive the same marketing as Ash Creek. One thing that I do find odd is that there are NWA's and even OC's that demand high dollars compared to others that are the same classification.? It just boils down to supply/demand and some good marketing and publicity.? I may pay hundreds of dollars for a meteorite and be satisfied, while someone else may think it has little value.? That's one of the things that makes it such an interesting hobby. Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 11:56:15 -0500 > From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? > > Count Deiro wrote: > ?Good morning, afternoon, or evening...as the case may be, > > The ersatz material Jason called attention to this morning > proves the adage "that a sucker is born every minute." > > These frauds are damaging to all who are engaged in the > field of meteoritics whether it's collecting, study, display, > trade or sale, as a avacation or lively hood. > > The question is...do the experts on the List feel any > obligation to take more comprehensive action to inform > the potential victims of these rascals? And what would > those actions be if a Listee was so inclined?? > > The fundamental problem anyone, who engages in such action, > regardless of the truthfulness of their opinions, is going to be > vulnerable to all sort of lawsuits. Even if a lawsuit for either > libel or defamation is bogus, it can still be very costly in time > and money.That is why SLLAP lawsuits work all too well. > > Regards, > > Paul > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Find the right PC with Windows 7 and Windows Live. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/pc-scout/laptop-set-criteria.aspx?cbid=wl&filt=200,2400,10,19,1,3,1,7,50,650,2,12,0,1000&cat=1,2,3,4,5,6&brands=5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16&addf=4,5,9&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen2:112009 From spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 3 14:27:11 2009 From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com (Melanie Matthews) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 11:27:11 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?windows-1256?q?Ash_Creek_the_most_expensive_or?= =?windows-1256?q?dinary_chondrite=3F=FE?= In-Reply-To: References: <20091103115615.ZVZ97.630645.imail@eastrmwml31> Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Hello list. Thank you all for your input! I've been thinking have there been accounts of people selling NWA material and passing them off as rare/historic or recent falls? ----------- Melanie IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get! ---------------------------------------- > From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com > To: oxytropidoceras at cox.net; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 09:18:20 -0800 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? > > > All: > > I think the reason Ash Creek has a higher value is because of the publicity. It was major news among the meteorite community; even outside the meteorite community. Also, it was the first fall/find that occurred in the US for a number of years, and was captued on video. This all created the increased interest and demand, and thus increased the price. The Buzzard Coulee meteorite was also much larger (TKW) and did not receive the same marketing as Ash Creek. > > One thing that I do find odd is that there are NWA's and even OC's that demand high dollars compared to others that are the same classification. It just boils down to supply/demand and some good marketing and publicity. I may pay hundreds of dollars for a meteorite and be satisfied, while someone else may think it has little value. That's one of the things that makes it such an interesting hobby. > > Greg S. > > ---------------------------------------- >> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 11:56:15 -0500 >> From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net >> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? >> >> Count Deiro wrote: >> ?Good morning, afternoon, or evening...as the case may be, >> >> The ersatz material Jason called attention to this morning >> proves the adage "that a sucker is born every minute." >> >> These frauds are damaging to all who are engaged in the >> field of meteoritics whether it's collecting, study, display, >> trade or sale, as a avacation or lively hood. >> >> The question is...do the experts on the List feel any >> obligation to take more comprehensive action to inform >> the potential victims of these rascals? And what would >> those actions be if a Listee was so inclined?? >> >> The fundamental problem anyone, who engages in such action, >> regardless of the truthfulness of their opinions, is going to be >> vulnerable to all sort of lawsuits. Even if a lawsuit for either >> libel or defamation is bogus, it can still be very costly in time >> and money.That is why SLLAP lawsuits work all too well. >> >> Regards, >> >> Paul >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > _________________________________________________________________ > Find the right PC with Windows 7 and Windows Live. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/pc-scout/laptop-set-criteria.aspx?cbid=wl&filt=200,2400,10,19,1,3,1,7,50,650,2,12,0,1000&cat=1,2,3,4,5,6&brands=5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16&addf=4,5,9&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen2:112009 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic deals on Windows 7 now http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818 From jose118 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 3 16:49:07 2009 From: jose118 at hotmail.com (Jose Villavicencio) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 16:49:07 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Test (Jose Villavicencio) Message-ID: Test 2...Looks like I got it!!!... _________________________________________________________________ Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy! http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us From ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Tue Nov 3 17:02:52 2009 From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com (ensoramanda at ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 22:02:52 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching with Ferric Chloride In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20091103220252.WXLC1.763071.root@web07-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Hi All, Following on from a recent discussion I am wondering if anyone has had experience of etching pallasites with Ferric Chloride? Apparently there is a risk of leaving dark staining on irons if not washed promptly, but was wondering if there was any danger of staining the olivines in a pallasite. Has anyone on the list tried it out? I would be grateful for any advice. Graham, UK. From gibeon at aol.com Tue Nov 3 16:58:04 2009 From: gibeon at aol.com (Hanno Strufe) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 16:58:04 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Photos from the Munich Show 2009 Message-ID: <8CC2AE7DA68B172-3AA4-3B52@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> Hello, here are my photos from the Munich Show last weekend. This year you could realy see, that there were very less meteorites for sale from NWA. You could see the one or other better individual, but most was not that what a collector would like. Also I had the feeling that there were much less visitors than last year. Very interesting was the exhibition of the india show with the large multicoloured crystals. Don?t forget to say that the fossil exhibition with the large dinosaurs and archaeopteryx was worth to see. You will find the pictures on my website at http://www.strufe.net go with your mouse cursor on the top at ?Foto-Galerien? and the sign for M?nchen-2009 is coming up, there you see the 4 pages on the right that include each 10 photos or copy the following link into your browser http://www.strufe.net/0334af9a5a0cf8e1d/0334af9cb40c3fd02/0334af9cb40c4c507/index.php Best regards Hanno Strufe Langenbergstrasse 32 66954 Pirmasens Germany Phone + Fax: +49 6331 225105 http://www.strufe.net Member of the Meteoritical Society IMCA Member # 4267 From epgrondine at yahoo.com Tue Nov 3 17:29:04 2009 From: epgrondine at yahoo.com (E.P. Grondine) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:29:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Ancient Atomic Bombs Message-ID: <52804.42823.qm@web36908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi all - Its Amazing what technologies the ancient Lemurians and Rama Empire had {JOKE!!!). If anyone wants the inside story of how this lunacy came into popular culture, simply drop me an e-mail. The worrisome part of this, though, seriously, is that an impactor probably hit near Mohenjo Daro, bringing to a complete and abrupt end a very advanced civilization. I expect that someday impactites from this impact event will be made available via the market. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Tue Nov 3 17:37:41 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:37:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] MESSENGER Spacecraft Reveals More Hidden Territory on Mercury Message-ID: <200911032237.nA3MbfJN018370@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> Nov. 3, 2009 Dwayne Brown Headquarters, Washington 202-358-1726 dwayne.c.brown at nasa.gov Paulette Campbell Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, Laurel, Md. 240-228-6792 paulette.campbell at jhuapl.edu RELEASE: 09-257 MESSENGER SPACECRAFT REVEALS MORE HIDDEN TERRITORY ON MERCURY WASHINGTON -- A NASA spacecraft's third and final flyby of Mercury gives scientists, for the first time, an almost complete view of the planet's surface and provides new scientific findings about this relatively unknown world. The Mercury Surface, Space Environment, Geochemistry and Ranging spacecraft, known as MESSENGER, flew by Mercury on Sept. 29. The probe completed a critical gravity assist to remain on course to enter into orbit around Mercury in 2011. Despite shutting down temporarily because of a power system switchover during a solar eclipse, the spacecraft's cameras and instruments collected high-resolution and color images unveiling another 6 percent of the planet's surface never before seen at close range. Approximately 98 percent of Mercury's surface now has been imaged by NASA spacecraft. After MESSENGER goes into orbit around Mercury, it will see the polar regions, which are the only unobserved areas of the planet. "Although the area viewed for the first time by spacecraft was less than 350 miles across at the equator, the new images reminded us that Mercury continues to hold surprises," said Sean Solomon, principal investigator for the mission and director of the Department of Terrestrial Magnetism at the Carnegie Institution of Washington. Many new features were revealed during the third flyby, including a region with a bright area surrounding an irregular depression, suspected to be volcanic in origin. Other images revealed a double-ring impact basin approximately 180 miles across. The basin is similar to a feature scientists call the Raditladi basin, which was viewed during the probe's first flyby of Mercury in January 2008. "This double-ring basin, seen in detail for the first time, is remarkably well preserved," said Brett Denevi, a member of the probe's imaging team and a postdoctoral researcher at Arizona State University in Tempe. "One similarity to Raditladi is its age, which has been estimated to be approximately one billion years old. Such an age is quite young for an impact basin, because most basins are about four times older. The inner floor of this basin is even younger than the basin itself and differs in color from its surroundings. We may have found the youngest volcanic material on Mercury." One of the spacecraft's instruments conducted its most extensive observations to date of Mercury's exosphere, or thin atmosphere, during this encounter. The flyby allowed for the first detailed scans over Mercury's north and south poles. The probe also has begun to reveal how Mercury's atmosphere varies with its distance from the sun. "A striking illustration of what we call 'seasonal' effects in Mercury's exosphere is that the neutral sodium tail, so prominent in the first two flybys, is 10 to 20 times less intense in emission and significantly reduced in extent," says participating scientist Ron Vervack, of the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, or APL, in Laurel, Md. "This difference is related to expected variations in solar radiation pressure as Mercury moves in its orbit and demonstrates why Mercury's exosphere is one of the most dynamic in the solar system." The observations also show that calcium and magnesium exhibit different seasonal changes than sodium. Studying the seasonal changes in all exospheric constituents during the mission orbital phase will provide key information on the relative importance of the processes that generate, sustain, and modify Mercury's atmosphere. The third flyby also revealed new information on the abundances of iron and titanium in Mercury's surface materials. Earlier Earth and spacecraft-based observations showed that Mercury's surface has a very low concentration of iron in silicate minerals, a result that led to the view that the planet's crust is generally low in iron. "Now we know Mercury's surface has an average iron and titanium abundance that is higher than most of us expected, similar to some lunar mare basalts," says David Lawrence, an APL participating mission scientist. The spacecraft has completed nearly three-quarters of its 4.9-billion-mile journey to enter orbit around Mercury. The full trip will include more than 15 trips around the sun. In addition to flying by Mercury, the spacecraft flew past Earth in August 2005 and Venus in October 2006 and June 2007. The spacecraft was designed and built by APL. The mission is managed and operated by APL for NASA's Science Mission Directorate in Washington. For more information about the mission, visit: http://www.nasa.gov/messenger -end- From meteoritemike at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 17:37:23 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 17:37:23 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Photos from the Munich Show 2009 In-Reply-To: <8CC2AE7DA68B172-3AA4-3B52@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC2AE7DA68B172-3AA4-3B52@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Excellent photos! Thank you for sharing them Hanno. It was like having a tour. :) On 11/3/09, Hanno Strufe wrote: > Hello, > > here are my photos from the Munich Show last weekend. > > This year you could realy see, that there were very less meteorites for > sale from NWA. > You could see the one or other better individual, but most was not that > what a collector would like. > Also I had the feeling that there were much less visitors than last > year. > Very interesting was the exhibition of the india show with the large > multicoloured crystals. > Don?t forget to say that the fossil exhibition with the large dinosaurs > and archaeopteryx was worth to see. > > You will find the pictures on my website at > > http://www.strufe.net > > go with your mouse cursor on the top at ?Foto-Galerien? and the sign > for M?nchen-2009 is coming up, there you see the 4 pages on the right > that include each 10 photos > or copy the following link into your browser > > http://www.strufe.net/0334af9a5a0cf8e1d/0334af9cb40c3fd02/0334af9cb40c4c507/index.php > > Best regards > > > Hanno Strufe > Langenbergstrasse 32 > 66954 Pirmasens > Germany > Phone + Fax: +49 6331 225105 > http://www.strufe.net > > Member of the Meteoritical Society > > IMCA Member # 4267 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Florida, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com FaceBook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone MySpace - http://www.myspace.com/fine_meteorites_4_sale Twitter - Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone eBay - http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/maypickle .......................................................... From epgrondine at yahoo.com Tue Nov 3 18:44:14 2009 From: epgrondine at yahoo.com (E.P. Grondine) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 15:44:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Fireball over Kansas Message-ID: <555324.68832.qm@web36907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi all - Now why can't there be a really nice big bollide over New York City, Chicago, DC, or LA? By the way, I just want to thank all of you who were so gracious to me in Tucson several years ago. Those meteorites and other goodies have delighted several hundred young people. I've got the basic talk down to a little overe 15 minutes now, passing samples from both ends of a line of about 20-25 - and I have not "lost" one yet. I leave the samples in the plastic bags, and that seems to work well. The talk: Sources; iron; stoney iron; stoney; comet; chip of Moon; Barringer crater, with irons; dinosaur gullet stone; tektites; impact glass; Libyan desert glass microlith; polished stone tool. My thanks to everyone who helped make this possible. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas From eric at meteoritesusa.com Tue Nov 3 19:03:22 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 16:03:22 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Galaxy: Fake or Foto Message-ID: <4AF0C4CA.2070408@meteoritesusa.com> Hi List, Just for fun... Fake or Foto? http://www.meteoritesusa.com/fun/galaxy.jpg Regards, Eric From cdtucson at cox.net Tue Nov 3 12:32:01 2009 From: cdtucson at cox.net (cdtucson at cox.net) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 9:32:01 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?utf-8?q?Ash_Creek_the_most_expensive_ordinary_?= =?utf-8?b?Y2hvbmRyaXRlP+KAjw==?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20091103123201.XSE9X.14651.imail@fed1rmwml41> I would just add to all of your very good points, Provenance. Nobody is mightier than Bob Haag. So, if he is selling it or it has anything to do with him people will pay a premium. He is our "Rock Star Of the industry". Well he is the Led Leppelin whereas the meteorite men are more of the Black eyed peas of today. Classic vs. new hot. but all great. My 2cents Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax ---- Greg Stanley wrote: > All: I think the reason Ash Creek has a higher value is because of the publicity.? It was major news among the meteorite community; even outside the meteorite community.? Also, it was the first fall/find that occurred in the US for a number of years, and was captued on video.? This all created the increased interest and demand, and thus increased the price.? The Buzzard Coulee meteorite was also much larger (TKW) and did not receive the same marketing as Ash Creek. One thing that I do find odd is that there are NWA's and even OC's that demand high dollars compared to others that are the same classification.? It just boils down to supply/demand and some good marketing and publicity.? I may pay hundreds of dollars for a meteorite and be satisfied, while someone else may think it has little value.? That's one of the things that makes it such an interesting hobby. Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 11:56:15 -0500 > From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? > > Count Deiro wrote: > ?Good morning, afternoon, or evening...as the case may be, > > The ersatz material Jason called attention to this morning > proves the adage "that a sucker is born every minute." > > These frauds are damaging to all who are engaged in the > field of meteoritics whether it's collecting, study, display, > trade or sale, as a avacation or lively hood. > > The question is...do the experts on the List feel any > obligation to take more comprehensive action to inform > the potential victims of these rascals? And what would > those actions be if a Listee was so inclined?? > > The fundamental problem anyone, who engages in such action, > regardless of the truthfulness of their opinions, is going to be > vulnerable to all sort of lawsuits. Even if a lawsuit for either > libel or defamation is bogus, it can still be very costly in time > and money.That is why SLLAP lawsuits work all too well. > > Regards, > > Paul > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Find the right PC with Windows 7 and Windows Live. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/pc-scout/laptop-set-criteria.aspx?cbid=wl&filt=200,2400,10,19,1,3,1,7,50,650,2,12,0,1000&cat=1,2,3,4,5,6&brands=5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16&addf=4,5,9&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen2:112009 ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From cdtucson at cox.net Tue Nov 3 15:59:43 2009 From: cdtucson at cox.net (cdtucson at cox.net) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 15:59:43 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Question Flow lines structures Message-ID: <20091103155943.ESPV4.16203.imail@fed1rmwml43> List, I have a question about flow lines or flow structures. ; Are they definitive of meteorites. Please see picture of flow structure of millbillillie eucrite flow lines and an AZ find with similar flow structures. As a follow-up question; do these tell us anything other than orientation of a meteorite? Thank you. see link for pictures. Please all opinions welcome. Carl http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab298/meteoritemax/DSC05571.jpg Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax From gmhupe at htn.net Tue Nov 3 19:27:00 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 19:27:00 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] More Rarities Ending eBay - AD Message-ID: <67D2CE2B0D9446F084BD0D341C1BECB7@Gregor> Dear List Members, Another week, and another selection of excellent rare meteorite auctions ending tomorrow, (Wednesday, Nov. 4th). All of the desirables; Lunars, Martians, Angrites, Brachinites, Lodranites, Diogenites, Howardites, Witnessed Falls, Irons... the list goes on. To see all that are currently on eBay, please click here: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault There are some still at the low opening price, Bargains will be had, Collectors will be Happy, and I am even more happy to bring these to you! Thank you for bidding and/or looking!! Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault From almitt at kconline.com Tue Nov 3 20:40:12 2009 From: almitt at kconline.com (al mitt) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:40:12 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? In-Reply-To: References: <20091103115615.ZVZ97.630645.imail@eastrmwml31> Message-ID: <2A2849AEC6F64639A1D6EB918B9A3A95@StarmanPC> Hi Melanie, About a year back there was someone selling other meteorites as historic ones. Don't know if they were NWA or not. I do know there were several meteorites that had very questionable providence. When sources of the material were asked if trades with this individual were made (where the seller had claimed to traded from) they indicated they had NOT traded with them or for any of the material in question. There has also been another long time meteorite dealer who has questionable dealings and has what I would say is questionable feedback in the MetBull. Sad that some people, big collectors think this person is worthy of buying from. You can do a search in the Meteorite Central archives for this information to get names. --AL Mitterling ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melanie Matthews" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 2:27 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? > Hello list. > Thank you all for your input! > > I've been thinking have there been accounts of people selling NWA material > and passing them off as rare/historic or recent falls? > > ----------- > Melanie > IMCA: 2975 > eBay: metmel2775 > Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 From almitt at kconline.com Tue Nov 3 21:22:21 2009 From: almitt at kconline.com (al mitt) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 21:22:21 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?windows-1256?q?Ash_Creek_the_most_expensive_or?= =?windows-1256?q?dinary_chondrite=3F=FE?= In-Reply-To: References: <20091103115615.ZVZ97.630645.imail@eastrmwml31> Message-ID: <964893BCF30842F5A15614D50CFC4F80@StarmanPC> Hi Greg and all, While I think there are a lot of good points on why this meteorite was expensive, I think there is another factor in all this as well. The more people, meteorite hunters, collectors and so on that descend on a fall, the more expenses that have to be added into the cost. If you only have 50lbs (22.7 kilos) of material (for example) and fifty hunters, the cost for travel, motel, time and effort and payment to land owners will make that fall higher in price. If only a half dozen hunters search the area then the price would be substantially less. This assumes that they all find an average amount of material. I realize there is no way of knowing for certain how much material survived passage or can be found but seems if every meteorite hunter in a two thousand mile radius heads out and there are more hunters than material we're in for an expensive fall. I've heard some comments about fewer searchers then better chance of hunters price fixing but I don't think this would happen in most cases. I believe in the credibility of most hunters and collectors. As I have said many times before, ultimately it is what someone is willing to pay for an item that will dictate the price of material. Usually about a year after the fall is the best priced material. Well my two grams worth. All my best! --AL Mitterling ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Stanley" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 12:18 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? > All: > > I think the reason Ash Creek has a higher value is because of the > publicity. It was major news among the meteorite community; even outside > the meteorite community. Also, it was the first fall/find that occurred in > the US for a number of years, and was captued on video. This all created > the increased interest and demand, and thus increased the price. The > Buzzard Coulee meteorite was also much larger (TKW) and did not receive > the same marketing as Ash Creek. > > One thing that I do find odd is that there are NWA's and even OC's that > demand high dollars compared to others that are the same classification. > It just boils down to supply/demand and some good marketing and publicity. > I may pay hundreds of dollars for a meteorite and be satisfied, while > someone else may think it has little value. That's one of the things that > makes it such an interesting hobby. > > Greg S. From searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 3 21:24:46 2009 From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net (Brian Cox) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:24:46 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek vs. Buzzard Coulee Message-ID: <356CBA8F67C84CC4B68ABD1AFFD2D96C@user6e6e286533> I feel that Greg S. and everyone answered the specifics of why Ash Creek is more expensive than Buzzard Coulee very well. We got several reports each day from the field on the search for Ash Creek-West, many more reports than on Buzzard Coulee. Also, Ash Creek was more accessible than Buzzard and also you have to throw into the mix the fact that Canadian laws made it impossible for any Buzzard Coulee to be exported, so none were allowed out by law except in some very, very rare instances of where we know a specimen or two got out of Canada. Those Canadian laws made it less desirable for anyone to bother searching for it as aggressively as Ash Creek. Also, the fact that no one knew for sure when Canada was going to allow export permits, it just made sense that it was not worth the wait, time, money and effort to search for Buzzard since there are so many more collectors/dealers in the lower 48 states and so many collectors in the Southwest areas of Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona , Nevada and California that could easily drive to Texas. Honestly, think about the fact that if you put a dot on a map of the "World" for every collector/dealer, there would be the greatest concentration in the Western U.S. From mmurray at montrose.net Tue Nov 3 21:57:42 2009 From: mmurray at montrose.net (Michael Murray) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 19:57:42 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] another cleaning irons question Message-ID: <35426569-5182-4BFB-A26D-F318AE529677@montrose.net> I have a couple small suspect irons that I would like to be able to finally get to see but they both have a rind of stone-like material completely encasing them. Probably calcium. I know there are several household products that are supposed to remove calcium but will they ruin my little iron? Who can recommend a trustworthy product to use for getting the stone-like material off without it ruining what is underneath? Mike in CO From webbth1 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 3 21:59:16 2009 From: webbth1 at yahoo.com (Thomas Webb) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 18:59:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Galaxy: Fake or Foto In-Reply-To: <4AF0C4CA.2070408@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: <123836.60432.qm@web56506.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Eric, Looks like the base of a piece of pottery. Best, Thomas --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Meteorites USA wrote: > From: Meteorites USA > Subject: [meteorite-list] Galaxy: Fake or Foto > To: "meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com" > Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 7:03 PM > Hi List, > > Just for fun... > > Fake or Foto? > > http://www.meteoritesusa.com/fun/galaxy.jpg > > Regards, > Eric > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From dave at fallingrocks.com Tue Nov 3 22:52:07 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 22:52:07 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD for Harlan Trammell Message-ID: <2C424B78D22E4EF096D5A989167125C9@meteorroom> Hello All, Many of you know that Harlan lives in the Florida Keys, and most of you know that construction, where he earns much of his living, is rather depressed down there at the moment. Harlan's having trouble posting to the list at the moment and asked me to send this list of specimens -- many of his best meteorites -- along for your consideration. His email address is CC'd above, and please contact him OFF LIST. <>>ALL<<< reasonable, intelligent OFFERS WILL BE ACCEPTED!!! >>>NO<<< paypal!!! Mailed payment in USD ONLY Sorry NO TRADES, NO CUTTING- ALL-IN Make offers or buy them all for HALF PRICE ($8950)>> Dave Gheesling IMCA #5967 www.fallingrocks.com From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Tue Nov 3 23:18:18 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:18:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] =?utf-8?q?Ash_Creek_the_most_expensive_ordinary_?= =?utf-8?b?Y2hvbmRyaXRlP+KAjw==?= In-Reply-To: <964893BCF30842F5A15614D50CFC4F80@StarmanPC> Message-ID: <486035.38343.qm@web46416.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi to all, I thought I would add my 2 pennies... I would have to disagree, I think the more hunters, the cheaper the material due to more people having material for sale and less chance for a select few "friends" to set what they all will charge. Look at it this way (its how I do anyway) Compare Carancas... It sold for $100 per gram and they had to travel from the USA to Peru. West... it also sold for $100 per gram and they had to travel to Texas from the USA (many only one or two states away) What costs more? The travel to Texas or Peru? Carancas had a much lower TKW then West (west TKW is more then double), made a crater and had a ton on media not to mention was of much more scientific importance then west due to the circumstances of the fall, crater and events that surrounded it. Thanks to Mike Farmer, the media attention around Carancas doubled. (not really a bad thing, but more a fact - his "escape" made for great reading and a neat story.) Its my opinion, however unpopular, that new falls are about getting as much profit as possible as fast as possible... I also think inaccurate reports of TW lead to the higher price of West - I still see people clearly stating that only about 3 kilos were recovered when I know of many who walked away with several kilos themselves! Another example of West and meteorite politics (which leads to these high prices)... The same people who were ready to exclude and not "allow" people to the AZ fall location (and used the excuse "we dont want others running in our backyard like they did in west") were actually the same ones doing just that to others backyards at West. I really think that the price is more about who gets there first and who is "allowed" to hunt the field. Meteorites are competitive and my eyes were opened to just how much so due to recent falls. When I first got into meteorites, I thought it was a pretty open group that welcomed newer members/collectors and future hunters. I quickly found out that not many are willing to "help the competition" and its basicly dog eat dog. Sure, many are willing to help you build your collection by selling you meteorites, but very few are actually willing to lend/offer first hand teaching and "in field" experience to those that want to learn from the people that are supposed to be "the best". I know my thoughts on this topic are not too popular with some, but I am honestly speaking from what I have seen looking in from the sidelines. Greg C. --- On Tue, 11/3/09, al mitt wrote: > From: al mitt > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 9:22 PM > Hi Greg and all, > > While I think there are a lot of good points on why this > meteorite was expensive, I think there is another factor in > all this as well. > The more people, meteorite hunters, collectors and so on > that descend on a fall, the more expenses that have to be > added into the cost. If you only have 50lbs (22.7 kilos) of > material (for example) and fifty hunters, the cost for > travel, motel, time and effort and payment to land owners > will make that fall higher in price. If only a half dozen > hunters search the area then the price would be > substantially less. This assumes that they all find an > average amount of material. > > I realize there is no way of knowing for certain how much > material survived passage or can be found but seems if every > meteorite hunter in a two thousand mile radius heads out and > there are more hunters than material we're in for an > expensive fall. > > I've heard some comments about fewer searchers then better > chance of hunters price fixing but I don't think this would > happen in most cases. I believe in the credibility of most > hunters and collectors. As I have said many times before, > ultimately it is what someone is willing to pay for an item > that will dictate the price of material. Usually about a > year after the fall is the best priced material. Well my two > grams worth. > > All my best! > > --AL Mitterling > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Stanley" > To: ; > > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 12:18 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive > ordinary chondrite?? > > > > > All: > > > > I think the reason Ash Creek has a higher value is > because of the publicity. It was major news among the > meteorite community; even outside the meteorite community. > Also, it was the first fall/find that occurred in the US for > a number of years, and was captued on video. This all > created the increased interest and demand, and thus > increased the price. The Buzzard Coulee meteorite was also > much larger (TKW) and did not receive the same marketing as > Ash Creek. > > > > One thing that I do find odd is that there are NWA's > and even OC's that demand high dollars compared to others > that are the same classification. It just boils down to > supply/demand and some good marketing and publicity. I may > pay hundreds of dollars for a meteorite and be satisfied, > while someone else may think it has little value. That's one > of the things that makes it such an interesting hobby. > > > > Greg S. > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteorites at optushome.com.au Tue Nov 3 23:34:54 2009 From: meteorites at optushome.com.au (Norbert & Heike Kammel) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:34:54 +1100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Contact info for Rico R. Mettler Message-ID: <4AF1046E.3090503@optushome.com.au> Can somebody please help me to find a way to get in contact with *Rico R. Mettler, IMCA # 0152*. Off list please! Thanks a lot, and best regards from Down-Under, Norbert Kammel IMCA # 3420 www.rocksonfire.com From meteoritekid at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 00:10:19 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 21:10:19 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?utf-8?q?Ash_Creek_the_most_expensive_ordinary_?= =?utf-8?b?Y2hvbmRyaXRlP+KAjw==?= In-Reply-To: <486035.38343.qm@web46416.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <964893BCF30842F5A15614D50CFC4F80@StarmanPC> <486035.38343.qm@web46416.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <93aaac890911032110v15b90536pdf0570ef5088499b@mail.gmail.com> Yo, Well, I don't fully agree that Al's suggestion is the reason why West was so expensive, but it may well have been a factor. Greg, you said: > Look at it this way (its how I do anyway) > Compare Carancas... It sold for $100 per gram and they had to travel from the USA to Peru. > West... it also sold for $100 per gram and they had to travel to Texas from the USA (many only one or two states away) > What costs more? The travel to Texas or Peru? Well, it costs more when thirty people travel to Texas, stay there for several weeks, (and pay a base price for much of their material) than when five go to Peru, stay for a few days, and buy their rocks for pennies on the dollar. That was his point - which is similar to, but different from what I said earlier - "So the finders were looking to make the most of their sales with very limited material: hence, even higher prices." Al goes farther, suggesting that the price of the fall actually has/d a direct correlation with the overall expenses of the hunters. To which I say...no. I mean, maybe to some small extent, but, generally speaking, this principle doesn't apply to meteorites *at all.* Look at the $2-4/g price tag on Thuathe, $20/g price tag on Buzzard Coulee, or the $10/g price tag on Ben Sour. Maybe the prices are lower because the dealers brought back a large amount and are trying to move all of their material, but if I were looking to sell any of my Ash Creek stones, I wouldn't pul out a calculator and plug away at our expenses before giving out a price. I'd look at the material from a tkw, aesthetic, and rarity standpoint, and then judge. And this is where Ash Creek becomes more of an enigma. It seems to me that whenever there's a fall in a nearby place and a larger number of listmembers and personal friends make the trip, prices just...go up. It's not a factor of the cost of the trip - it's a hype factor that surrounds the fall itself. It's there, it's now, they're there, they're finding them *right now.* The market doesn't usually have such a sense of immediacy... Regards, Jason On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Greg Catterton wrote: > Hi to all, I thought I would add my 2 pennies... > > I would have to disagree, I think the more hunters, the cheaper the material due to more people having material for sale and less chance for a select few "friends" to set what they all will charge. > > Look at it this way (its how I do anyway) > Compare Carancas... It sold for $100 per gram and they had to travel from the USA to Peru. > > West... it also sold for $100 per gram and they had to travel to Texas from the USA (many only one or two states away) > > What costs more? The travel to Texas or Peru? > > Carancas had a much lower TKW then West (west TKW is more then double), made a crater and had a ton on media not to mention was of much more scientific importance then west due to the circumstances of the fall, crater and events that surrounded it. > > Thanks to Mike Farmer, the media attention around Carancas doubled. (not really a bad thing, but more a fact - his "escape" made for great reading and a neat story.) > > Its my opinion, however unpopular, ?that new falls are about getting as much profit as possible as fast as possible... I also think inaccurate reports of TW lead to the higher price of West - I still see people clearly stating that only about 3 kilos were recovered when I know of many who walked away with several kilos themselves! > > Another example of West and meteorite politics (which leads to these high prices)... The same people who were ready to exclude and not "allow" people to the AZ fall location (and used the excuse "we dont want others running in our backyard like they did in west") were actually the same ones doing just that to others backyards at West. > > I really think that the price is more about who gets there first and who is "allowed" to hunt the field. > Meteorites are competitive and my eyes were opened to just how much so due to recent falls. > > When I first got into meteorites, I thought it was a pretty open group that welcomed newer members/collectors and future hunters. I quickly found out that not many are willing to "help the competition" and its basicly dog eat dog. > > Sure, many are willing to help you build your collection by selling you meteorites, but very few are actually willing to lend/offer first hand teaching and "in field" experience to those that want to learn from the people that are supposed to be "the best". > > I know my thoughts on this topic are not too popular with some, but I am honestly speaking from what I have seen looking in from the sidelines. > > Greg C. > > > > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, al mitt wrote: > >> From: al mitt >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? >> To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 9:22 PM >> Hi Greg and all, >> >> While I think there are a lot of good points on why this >> meteorite was expensive, I think there is another factor in >> all this as well. >> The more people, meteorite hunters, collectors and so on >> that descend on a fall, the more expenses that have to be >> added into the cost. If you only have 50lbs (22.7 kilos) of >> material (for example) and fifty hunters, the cost for >> travel, motel, time and effort and payment to land owners >> will make that fall higher in price. If only a half dozen >> hunters search the area then the price would be >> substantially less. This assumes that they all find an >> average amount of material. >> >> I realize there is no way of knowing for certain how much >> material survived passage or can be found but seems if every >> meteorite hunter in a two thousand mile radius heads out and >> there are more hunters than material we're in for an >> expensive fall. >> >> I've heard some comments about fewer searchers then better >> chance of hunters price fixing but I don't think this would >> happen in most cases. I believe in the credibility of most >> hunters and collectors. As I have said many times before, >> ultimately it is what someone is willing to pay for an item >> that will dictate the price of material. Usually about a >> year after the fall is the best priced material. Well my two >> grams worth. >> >> All my best! >> >> --AL Mitterling >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Stanley" >> To: ; >> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 12:18 PM >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive >> ordinary chondrite?? >> >> >> >> > All: >> > >> > I think the reason Ash Creek has a higher value is >> because of the publicity. It was major news among the >> meteorite community; even outside the meteorite community. >> Also, it was the first fall/find that occurred in the US for >> a number of years, and was captued on video. This all >> created the increased interest and demand, and thus >> increased the price. The Buzzard Coulee meteorite was also >> much larger (TKW) and did not receive the same marketing as >> Ash Creek. >> > >> > One thing that I do find odd is that there are NWA's >> and even OC's that demand high dollars compared to others >> that are the same classification. It just boils down to >> supply/demand and some good marketing and publicity. I may >> pay hundreds of dollars for a meteorite and be satisfied, >> while someone else may think it has little value. That's one >> of the things that makes it such an interesting hobby. >> > >> > Greg S. >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From cynapse at charter.net Wed Nov 4 00:40:30 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:40:30 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Gosh, what a worthy project! In-Reply-To: <35426569-5182-4BFB-A26D-F318AE529677@montrose.net> References: <35426569-5182-4BFB-A26D-F318AE529677@montrose.net> Message-ID: Google is arching The Weekly World News! See their fine investigative journalism on meteorites: http://books.google.com/books?as_brr=1&id=PvQDAAAAMBAJ&dq=megalodon&q=meteorite&as_coll2=+issn%3A0199-574X+ From eric at meteoritesusa.com Wed Nov 4 05:13:52 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 02:13:52 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Symphony of Science: Carl Sagan, Neil Message-ID: <4AF153E0.2070708@meteoritesusa.com> Very cool... Thanks to Darren for the last one that was posted. I found this one just a little bit ago. featuring Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Bill Nye http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGK84Poeynk Enjoy... Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Wed Nov 4 07:06:51 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 13:06:51 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?windows-1256?q?Ash_Creek_the_most_expensive_or?= =?windows-1256?q?dinary_chondrite=3F=FE?= In-Reply-To: <486035.38343.qm@web46416.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <964893BCF30842F5A15614D50CFC4F80@StarmanPC> <486035.38343.qm@web46416.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001001ca5d47$5151ffb0$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> Hi Greg, you're going wrong and wherefrom you came to your distorted image of the meteorite world, is a riddle for me. The nowadays remarkably risen prices for new falls out of Africa have in my opinion other causes than you presume. I'll try to delineate them later this day. (Cause now we have to prepare the premiere of an unique new planetary). Let you be told, that your beloved Mike Farmer brought several new observed falls out at very moderate prices. I remind you to Ourique, the last European fall before the price explosion, which he introduced at a very cheap 10$/g - while all following European falls up to day, realized a multiple of that level and if again an ordinary chondrite will fall in Europe, you can be sure, that it won't be available below 50$ a gram. I remind you, that he established in U.S. the extremely low price level of Dashoguz = Kunya-Urgench of a few single bucks per gram, although the overall availability of that fall was very limited and I remind you, that his Thuathes certainly didn't max out the pain threshold of the collectors. I'm far from defending Farmer, but it disturbs me that in recent times permanently a picture is drawn here on the list of meteorite hunters and dealers being bloodhounds and greedy sharks by people who joined the meteorite scene the shortest while ago and who are still suffering from a lack of experience and insights, and who are excessively profiting from the great work, the meteorite people have performed all the years before. Regards, Martin PS: I think, Farmer should be readmitted to the list again, if he can control his temper. But even more I'd insist that Terry Boudreaux shouldn't be banned any longer. A remarkable collector, one of the greatest and most social committed people I know in the scene, whose only "misconduct" was to raise his voice a single time against a person, who was allowed to terrorize the list for the following 3 years. That expulsion was highly arbitrary and unreasonably disproportional. We have to counteract the degradation of this list. -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Greg Catterton Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. November 2009 05:18 An: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? Hi to all, I thought I would add my 2 pennies... I would have to disagree, I think the more hunters, the cheaper the material due to more people having material for sale and less chance for a select few "friends" to set what they all will charge. Look at it this way (its how I do anyway) Compare Carancas... It sold for $100 per gram and they had to travel from the USA to Peru. West... it also sold for $100 per gram and they had to travel to Texas from the USA (many only one or two states away) What costs more? The travel to Texas or Peru? Carancas had a much lower TKW then West (west TKW is more then double), made a crater and had a ton on media not to mention was of much more scientific importance then west due to the circumstances of the fall, crater and events that surrounded it. Thanks to Mike Farmer, the media attention around Carancas doubled. (not really a bad thing, but more a fact - his "escape" made for great reading and a neat story.) Its my opinion, however unpopular, that new falls are about getting as much profit as possible as fast as possible... I also think inaccurate reports of TW lead to the higher price of West - I still see people clearly stating that only about 3 kilos were recovered when I know of many who walked away with several kilos themselves! Another example of West and meteorite politics (which leads to these high prices)... The same people who were ready to exclude and not "allow" people to the AZ fall location (and used the excuse "we dont want others running in our backyard like they did in west") were actually the same ones doing just that to others backyards at West. I really think that the price is more about who gets there first and who is "allowed" to hunt the field. Meteorites are competitive and my eyes were opened to just how much so due to recent falls. When I first got into meteorites, I thought it was a pretty open group that welcomed newer members/collectors and future hunters. I quickly found out that not many are willing to "help the competition" and its basicly dog eat dog. Sure, many are willing to help you build your collection by selling you meteorites, but very few are actually willing to lend/offer first hand teaching and "in field" experience to those that want to learn from the people that are supposed to be "the best". I know my thoughts on this topic are not too popular with some, but I am honestly speaking from what I have seen looking in from the sidelines. Greg C. --- On Tue, 11/3/09, al mitt wrote: > From: al mitt > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 9:22 PM > Hi Greg and all, > > While I think there are a lot of good points on why this > meteorite was expensive, I think there is another factor in > all this as well. > The more people, meteorite hunters, collectors and so on > that descend on a fall, the more expenses that have to be > added into the cost. If you only have 50lbs (22.7 kilos) of > material (for example) and fifty hunters, the cost for > travel, motel, time and effort and payment to land owners > will make that fall higher in price. If only a half dozen > hunters search the area then the price would be > substantially less. This assumes that they all find an > average amount of material. > > I realize there is no way of knowing for certain how much > material survived passage or can be found but seems if every > meteorite hunter in a two thousand mile radius heads out and > there are more hunters than material we're in for an > expensive fall. > > I've heard some comments about fewer searchers then better > chance of hunters price fixing but I don't think this would > happen in most cases. I believe in the credibility of most > hunters and collectors. As I have said many times before, > ultimately it is what someone is willing to pay for an item > that will dictate the price of material. Usually about a > year after the fall is the best priced material. Well my two > grams worth. > > All my best! > > --AL Mitterling > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Stanley" > To: ; > > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 12:18 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive > ordinary chondrite?? > > > > > All: > > > > I think the reason Ash Creek has a higher value is > because of the publicity. It was major news among the > meteorite community; even outside the meteorite community. > Also, it was the first fall/find that occurred in the US for > a number of years, and was captued on video. This all > created the increased interest and demand, and thus > increased the price. The Buzzard Coulee meteorite was also > much larger (TKW) and did not receive the same marketing as > Ash Creek. > > > > One thing that I do find odd is that there are NWA's > and even OC's that demand high dollars compared to others > that are the same classification. It just boils down to > supply/demand and some good marketing and publicity. I may > pay hundreds of dollars for a meteorite and be satisfied, > while someone else may think it has little value. That's one > of the things that makes it such an interesting hobby. > > > > Greg S. > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From nwa482 at comcast.net Wed Nov 4 08:19:48 2009 From: nwa482 at comcast.net (Jim Strope) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 13:19:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: Ebay Auction Ending Tonight..... In-Reply-To: <1848744412.2421491257340626763.JavaMail.root@sz0057a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <593798992.2422801257340788995.JavaMail.root@sz0057a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Hi Guys and Gals..... One auction, dealer lot of Campito pendants" http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200399463003 The rest are "buy it now" but you can make an offer on many of these items. http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=catchafallingstar.com Thanks for looking. Jim Strope 421 Fourth Street Glen Dale, WV 26038 http://www.catchafallingstar.com/ From almitt at kconline.com Wed Nov 4 09:02:38 2009 From: almitt at kconline.com (al mitt) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 09:02:38 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?utf-8?q?Ash_Creek_the_most_expensive_ordinary_?= =?utf-8?b?Y2hvbmRyaXRlP+KAjw==?= In-Reply-To: <93aaac890911032110v15b90536pdf0570ef5088499b@mail.gmail.com> References: <964893BCF30842F5A15614D50CFC4F80@StarmanPC><486035.38343.qm@web46416.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <93aaac890911032110v15b90536pdf0570ef5088499b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <84AC0EC9EA934771A3FB8137E89C6ABE@StarmanPC> Hi Jason and all, Good post Jason and I agree with a great deal of what you said. I should have been a bit more specific when I commented and will here. I am sure there is some fault that people will be able to find and I'll read with interest further comments. Surely details of an interesting fall gets the attention of collectors who want part of the fall. To get to the point, when you have more people hunt a fall, often you get the hunters raising the offers they will pay for the specimens to land owners. Some of this is out of desperation to bring a new fall to the market (what ever happened to getting things classified first) and not getting skunked on your trip. More hunters more competition to buy what is out there or found. A bidding war can ensue and drive the price up dramatically. This happened in Park Forest and I know first hand from the dozen trips I made there. Fewer hunters and the better chance that everyone there will be able to buy pretty much what they want and at a better price. If we have 50 hunters and they only average about 400 grams each, and drive the price they will pay for the material higher then they have to ask more for their limited average amount. Fewer dealers, say 10 hunters for example and a better chance to lower price for material paid, plus more material for each hunter (say four or five times more, then the hunter will be able to charge less to make a good profit and be rewarded for the trouble he or she is going to. I know that hunters will always pursue a fall and we can't regulate who hunts, it's open to anyone but my feeling is that having too many hunters drive costs up in several ways and not just the basic costs of getting there and staying for a while. The saying too many cooks spoil the broth may pertain here. Too many hunters spoil the fall. Perhaps in the future an honor system might be used for falls close to hunters in order to better serve the collecting community. Did I say honor.................nah will never work :-) --AL Mitterling ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Utas" To: "Meteorite-list" Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 12:10 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list]Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? > Yo, > Well, I don't fully agree that Al's suggestion is the reason why West > was so expensive, but it may well have been a factor. > Greg, you said: > >> Look at it this way (its how I do anyway) >> Compare Carancas... It sold for $100 per gram and they had to travel from >> the USA to Peru. >> West... it also sold for $100 per gram and they had to travel to Texas >> from the USA (many only one or two states away) >> What costs more? The travel to Texas or Peru? > > Well, it costs more when thirty people travel to Texas, stay there for > several weeks, (and pay a base price for much of their material) than > when five go to Peru, stay for a few days, and buy their rocks for > pennies on the dollar. That was his point - which is similar to, but > different from what I said earlier - "So the finders were looking to > make the most of their sales with very > limited material: hence, even higher prices." > > Al goes farther, suggesting that the price of the fall actually has/d > a direct correlation with the overall expenses of the hunters. To > which I say...no. I mean, maybe to some small extent, but, generally > speaking, this principle doesn't apply to meteorites *at all.* Look > at the $2-4/g price tag on Thuathe, $20/g price tag on Buzzard Coulee, > or the $10/g price tag on Ben Sour. > > Maybe the prices are lower because the dealers brought back a large > amount and are trying to move all of their material, but if I were > looking to sell any of my Ash Creek stones, I wouldn't pul out a > calculator and plug away at our expenses before giving out a price. > I'd look at the material from a tkw, aesthetic, and rarity standpoint, > and then judge. And this is where Ash Creek becomes more of an > enigma. > > It seems to me that whenever there's a fall in a nearby place and a > larger number of listmembers and personal friends make the trip, > prices just...go up. It's not a factor of the cost of the trip - it's > a hype factor that surrounds the fall itself. It's there, it's now, > they're there, they're finding them *right now.* The market doesn't > usually have such a sense of immediacy... > > Regards, > Jason > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Greg Catterton > wrote: >> Hi to all, I thought I would add my 2 pennies... >> >> I would have to disagree, I think the more hunters, the cheaper the >> material due to more people having material for sale and less chance for >> a select few "friends" to set what they all will charge. >> >> Look at it this way (its how I do anyway) >> Compare Carancas... It sold for $100 per gram and they had to travel from >> the USA to Peru. >> >> West... it also sold for $100 per gram and they had to travel to Texas >> from the USA (many only one or two states away) >> >> What costs more? The travel to Texas or Peru? >> >> Carancas had a much lower TKW then West (west TKW is more then double), >> made a crater and had a ton on media not to mention was of much more >> scientific importance then west due to the circumstances of the fall, >> crater and events that surrounded it. >> >> Thanks to Mike Farmer, the media attention around Carancas doubled. (not >> really a bad thing, but more a fact - his "escape" made for great reading >> and a neat story.) >> >> Its my opinion, however unpopular, that new falls are about getting as >> much profit as possible as fast as possible... I also think inaccurate >> reports of TW lead to the higher price of West - I still see people >> clearly stating that only about 3 kilos were recovered when I know of >> many who walked away with several kilos themselves! >> >> Another example of West and meteorite politics (which leads to these high >> prices)... The same people who were ready to exclude and not "allow" >> people to the AZ fall location (and used the excuse "we dont want others >> running in our backyard like they did in west") were actually the same >> ones doing just that to others backyards at West. >> >> I really think that the price is more about who gets there first and who >> is "allowed" to hunt the field. >> Meteorites are competitive and my eyes were opened to just how much so >> due to recent falls. >> >> When I first got into meteorites, I thought it was a pretty open group >> that welcomed newer members/collectors and future hunters. I quickly >> found out that not many are willing to "help the competition" and its >> basicly dog eat dog. >> >> Sure, many are willing to help you build your collection by selling you >> meteorites, but very few are actually willing to lend/offer first hand >> teaching and "in field" experience to those that want to learn from the >> people that are supposed to be "the best". >> >> I know my thoughts on this topic are not too popular with some, but I am >> honestly speaking from what I have seen looking in from the sidelines. >> >> Greg C. >> >> >> >> --- On Tue, 11/3/09, al mitt wrote: >> >>> From: al mitt >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary >>> chondrite?? >>> To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 9:22 PM >>> Hi Greg and all, >>> >>> While I think there are a lot of good points on why this >>> meteorite was expensive, I think there is another factor in >>> all this as well. >>> The more people, meteorite hunters, collectors and so on >>> that descend on a fall, the more expenses that have to be >>> added into the cost. If you only have 50lbs (22.7 kilos) of >>> material (for example) and fifty hunters, the cost for >>> travel, motel, time and effort and payment to land owners >>> will make that fall higher in price. If only a half dozen >>> hunters search the area then the price would be >>> substantially less. This assumes that they all find an >>> average amount of material. >>> >>> I realize there is no way of knowing for certain how much >>> material survived passage or can be found but seems if every >>> meteorite hunter in a two thousand mile radius heads out and >>> there are more hunters than material we're in for an >>> expensive fall. >>> >>> I've heard some comments about fewer searchers then better >>> chance of hunters price fixing but I don't think this would >>> happen in most cases. I believe in the credibility of most >>> hunters and collectors. As I have said many times before, >>> ultimately it is what someone is willing to pay for an item >>> that will dictate the price of material. Usually about a >>> year after the fall is the best priced material. Well my two >>> grams worth. >>> >>> All my best! >>> >>> --AL Mitterling >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Stanley" >>> >>> To: ; >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 12:18 PM >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive >>> ordinary chondrite?? >>> >>> >>> >>> > All: >>> > >>> > I think the reason Ash Creek has a higher value is >>> because of the publicity. It was major news among the >>> meteorite community; even outside the meteorite community. >>> Also, it was the first fall/find that occurred in the US for >>> a number of years, and was captued on video. This all >>> created the increased interest and demand, and thus >>> increased the price. The Buzzard Coulee meteorite was also >>> much larger (TKW) and did not receive the same marketing as >>> Ash Creek. >>> > >>> > One thing that I do find odd is that there are NWA's >>> and even OC's that demand high dollars compared to others >>> that are the same classification. It just boils down to >>> supply/demand and some good marketing and publicity. I may >>> pay hundreds of dollars for a meteorite and be satisfied, >>> while someone else may think it has little value. That's one >>> of the things that makes it such an interesting hobby. >>> > >>> > Greg S. >>> >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From illaenus at wp.pl Wed Nov 4 09:23:12 2009 From: illaenus at wp.pl (Tomasz Jakubowski) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:23:12 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD Esquel and more Message-ID: <4af18e50d03065.04252432@wp.pl> Dear List Members, I have superb Esquel transparent slice for sale, weight 132.4 grams. Size 147x131x2 mm. Photo: http://picasaweb.google.pl/illaenus/Esquel132g#5394993049372854786 Also last huge slice of new Ureilite NWA 5928 36.9 grams. Size 67x62x4. Specimen have beautiful green, yellow olivine’s. Photos: http://picasaweb.google.pl/illaenus/UreiliteSlice36Grams# Henbury 516 gram specimen with natural patina and great shape. Photos : http://picasaweb.google.pl/illaenus/Henbury516G# Campo del Cielo 85.5 kg good sized specimen (preferred European collectors because of shipping cost). http://picasaweb.google.pl/illaenus/CampoDelCielo855Kg# If You are interest please write to my email address: illaenus at gmail.com Kind Regards Tomasz Jakubowski IMCA #2321 ---------------------------------------------------- Stw?rz w?asn? stron? startow?! Zbierz najciekawsze tre?ci w jednym miejscu! http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fpozbierane.pl&sid=902 From jose118 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 4 11:10:43 2009 From: jose118 at hotmail.com (Jose Villavicencio) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 11:10:43 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: Lunar Meteorite NWA 5000 Message-ID: Hi List!!! I hate to do this, but I have no other option. I'm selling a nice piece of NWA 5000 (0.45 grams) priced at 1,100/gram and open to offers, for list memebers shipping will be FREE. Right now it's listed on eBay, but I'm able to close it at any time if I get a good offer. http://cgi.ebay.com/NWA-5000-Lunar-Meteorite-0-45g_W0QQitemZ330373589461QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4cebcce9d5 Thanks for looking!!! _________________________________________________________________ Keep your friends updated?even when you?re not signed in. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_5:092010 From rocksfromspace at yahoo.com Wed Nov 4 11:21:18 2009 From: rocksfromspace at yahoo.com (Michael Johnson) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:21:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 4, 2009 Message-ID: <200122.12715.qm@web113010.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_4_2009.html From wahlperry at aol.com Wed Nov 4 12:12:11 2009 From: wahlperry at aol.com (wahlperry at aol.com) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 12:12:11 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?utf-8?q?Ash_Creek_the_most_expensive_ordinary_?= =?utf-8?b?Y2hvbmRyaXRlP+KAjw==?= In-Reply-To: <486035.38343.qm@web46416.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <486035.38343.qm@web46416.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CC2B8914AC881C-457C-1259C@webmail-d020.sysops.aol.com> Hi Greg and list, >I really think that the price is more about who gets there first and who is >"allowed" to hunt the field. >Meteorites are competitive and my eyes were opened to just how much so due to >recent falls. Please don't take this wrong. If you only knew how much work it is to open up a new strewn field or to find the first piece. Many of the hunters take a chance and their own money and time to bring you new material. What is this worth? What ever price the finder wants to sell it for. If the price is too high don't buy it. Try this, on the next fireball, hop on a plane and check it out for yourself. What is your time worth? Often there is a chance of coming home empty handed. >When I first got into meteorites, I thought it was a pretty open group that >welcomed newer members/collectors and future hunters. I quickly found out that >not many are willing to "help the competition" and its basicly dog eat dog. >Sure, many are willing to help you build your collection by selling you >meteorites, but very few are actually willing to lend/offer first hand teaching >and "in field" experience to those that want to learn from the people that are >supposed to be "the best". When I first heard about meteorites, I called and emailed many of the top hunters with no reply's. So I did the next best thing, started doing my own research on meteorites and hunting techniques. A month later I found my first meteorite. Six months later I had a new strewn field. 2 years later I had found 2 new strewn fields with many finds. Several years later I have been able to find 2 very rare meteorites. This just shows you that you can do it yourself with a little work and perseverance . There are many other great hunters out there including Ruben Garcia, Mike Miller, Geoff Notkin and Steve Arnold just to name a few. Of course there are so many others out there that are even members of this list (too many to mention).They have been able to build their own collections from some of their finds. Whats to say you can't accomplish the same thing. Get out there and give it a try! Hopefully I will be able to buy a new find from you some day. Good Luck, Sonny -----Original Message----- From: Greg Catterton To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:18 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? Hi to all, I thought I would add my 2 pennies... I would have to disagree, I think the more hunters, the cheaper the material due to more people having material for sale and less chance for a select few "friends" to set what they all will charge. Look at it this way (its how I do anyway) Compare Carancas... It sold for $100 per gram and they had to travel from the USA to Peru. West... it also sold for $100 per gram and they had to travel to Texas from the USA (many only one or two states away) What costs more? The travel to Texas or Peru? Carancas had a much lower TKW then West (west TKW is more then double), made a crater and had a ton on media not to mention was of much more scientific importance then west due to the circumstances of the fall, crater and events that surrounded it. Thanks to Mike Farmer, the media attention around Carancas doubled. (not really a bad thing, but more a fact - his "escape" made for great reading and a neat story.) Its my opinion, however unpopular, that new falls are about getting as much profit as possible as fast as possible... I also think inaccurate reports of TW lead to the higher price of West - I still see people clearly stating that only about 3 kilos were recovered when I know of many who walked away with several kilos themselves! Another example of West and meteorite politics (which leads to these high prices)... The same people who were ready to exclude and not "allow" people to the AZ fall location (and used the excuse "we dont want others running in our backyard like they did in west") were actually the same ones doing just that to others backyards at West. I really think that the price is more about who gets there first and who is "allowed" to hunt the field. Meteorites are competitive and my eyes were opened to just how much so due to recent falls. When I first got into meteorites, I thought it was a pretty open group that welcomed newer members/collectors and future hunters. I quickly found out that not many are willing to "help the competition" and its basicly dog eat dog. Sure, many are willing to help you build your collection by selling you meteorites, but very few are actually willing to lend/offer first hand teaching and "in field" experience to those that want to learn from the people that are supposed to be "the best". I know my thoughts on this topic are not too popular with some, but I am honestly speaking from what I have seen looking in from the sidelines. Greg C. --- On Tue, 11/3/09, al mitt wrote: > From: al mitt > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary chondrite?? > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 9:22 PM > Hi Greg and all, > > While I think there are a lot of good points on why this > meteorite was expensive, I think there is another factor in > all this as well. > The more people, meteorite hunters, collectors and so on > that descend on a fall, the more expenses that have to be > added into the cost. If you only have 50lbs (22.7 kilos) of > material (for example) and fifty hunters, the cost for > travel, motel, time and effort and payment to land owners > will make that fall higher in price. If only a half dozen > hunters search the area then the price would be > substantially less. This assumes that they all find an > average amount of material. > > I realize there is no way of knowing for certain how much > material survived passage or can be found but seems if every > meteorite hunter in a two thousand mile radius heads out and > there are more hunters than material we're in for an > expensive fall. > > I've heard some comments about fewer searchers then better > chance of hunters price fixing but I don't think this would > happen in most cases. I believe in the credibility of most > hunters and collectors. As I have said many times before, > ultimately it is what someone is willing to pay for an item > that will dictate the price of material. Usually about a > year after the fall is the best priced material. Well my two > grams worth. > > All my best! > > --AL Mitterling > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Stanley" > To: ; > > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 12:18 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive > ordinary chondrite?? > > > > > All: > > > > I think the reason Ash Creek has a higher value is > because of the publicity. It was major news among the > meteorite community; even outside the meteorite community. > Also, it was the first fall/find that occurred in the US for > a number of years, and was captued on video. This all > created the increased interest and demand, and thus > increased the price. The Buzzard Coulee meteorite was also > much larger (TKW) and did not receive the same marketing as > Ash Creek. > > > > One thing that I do find odd is that there are NWA's > and even OC's that demand high dollars compared to others > that are the same classification. It just boils down to > supply/demand and some good marketing and publicity. I may > pay hundreds of dollars for a meteorite and be satisfied, > while someone else may think it has little value. That's one > of the things that makes it such an interesting hobby. > > > > Greg S. > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From nwa482 at comcast.net Wed Nov 4 12:56:13 2009 From: nwa482 at comcast.net (Jim Strope) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:56:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [meteorite-list] =?utf-8?q?Ash_Creek_the_most_expensive_ordinary_?= =?utf-8?b?Y2hvbmRyaXRlP+KAjw==?= Message-ID: <1361960898.2581601257357373254.JavaMail.root@sz0057a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> I have to agree with the points that Sonny made on hunting protocol. I couldn't understand the logic of expecting Jack to release the Benson fall co-ordinates after he had done all the leg work. What if he had discovered a gold nugget "honey hole" on some stream high in the Sierra Mountains? Would he be looked down upon for not telling all the gold hunters where it was? I see no difference. When you are essentially picking money up off the ground it changes everything and rightfully so. Jim Strope 421 Fourth Street Glen Dale, WV 26038 http://www.catchafallingstar.com/ From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Wed Nov 4 13:11:19 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 10:11:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek Prices. In-Reply-To: <707529541.4161911257345888550.JavaMail.root@sz0101a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <456462.77680.qm@web46409.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> First off, I would like to say I am not whining. I did not make any personal remarks towards you, and you are totally out of line... The ONLY remark I made with your name in it was about Carancas and your experience. Perhaps you took that as negative, it was not. I was offering my opinions as to what helped push Carancas to the $100 mark. I made comments that reflect my opinions on this issue, and I understand that they are not popular with some, but as I said, this is the result of what I have seen and the impression I have been given by watching some of the discussions on this list. The issue concerning you and Steve, while I know nothing about it, did that need to become public issue? This even, you could have easily sent me an email off list. Instead you take the oppertunity to publicly flame and insult me. Over what? My opinions that certain meteorites are overpriced and artificially inflated? I understand the costs involved in hunting can be high and I never have disputed that. As I said before, I have been into meteorites for all of 3 years. I will be the first to admit that I dont know all of the details. I am trying to understand them and the politics involved in meteorites. I want to ask, is it really good to show the conduct you do to new people trying to learn? Sure, my opinions may be incorrect, but the actions you just showed has only reinforced my feelings to a degree. You could have left out all the personal remarks and been just as effective. Instead you choose to take shots at me for my feelings... Way to go. Greg C. --- On Wed, 11/4/09, meteoritehunter at comcast.net wrote: > From: meteoritehunter at comcast.net > Subject: Ash Creek Prices. > To: meteoritekid at gmail.com > Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, star_wars_collector at yahoo.com > Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 9:44 AM > #yiv576588598 p > {margin:0;} > Geg and Jason, > ? > Greg's whining is out of control. > Ash Creek was perhaps overpriced at $100 per gram for > stones larger than a gram or two. However, you are acting > like every person there came home with pockets full. > Give me a break, most people were lucky to go home with > 3 or 4 small stones, 90% under 10 grams. > I am sure you are both smart, so do this, check on > airplane tickets, o say from California to Dallas Texas. > Short notice tickets were expensive, I am sure no one paid > less than $300 to $400.00 > I myself, on three trip there, spent more than $1500 on > tickets > Car rentals for me for one month, more than > $1200.00. > Hotel, more than $2000.00 > Food I dont count since I eat anywhere. > Not to mention that little thing called my time, more > than 20 days of hunting, time when I could make no other > sales. ? > ? > THOUSANDS on expenses, I found all of 20 stones. I > walked more than 200 miles (320 km) to find those stone. I > want to keep almost all, so there was about 5 stones I was > willing to sell. > WOW, I guess I should have put $5.00 gram on those > stones an made about $200.00 > ?hmmm, that would not even be worth my time to > package them based on expenses. > Now, take most people who went home with say 5 or 6 > stones, perhaps $1200.00 in expenses, and most stones 2 or 3 > grams were the norm. Again, not even making expenses back > and we worked our asses off to find those little stones. So > people set the price in the $100 gram range, and buyers paid > it. > ? > Prices have dropped now because collectors have all the > Ash Creek they want apparently. I was in?Munich last > week though, and I had no ash creek for sale and was > asked?by several people for it. ? > ? > Greg?stop your crying, it is really getting old, > and I am not sure if you have noticed, but a large number of > people have dropped off the list, it has become a pitiful > place full of whining and crying and little else. > Get over yourself. > ? > You want to find the Benson fall, get off your ass, as > we said months ago, get out here and look for it. What do > you want, for me to? drive you to the strewnfield and > hold your hand while you search? Should I give you my single > piece I found because you want it? > You are no being resonable or logical. When the > coordinates are published, you are welcome to hunt all you > want. > Michael Farmer > ? From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Wed Nov 4 13:42:06 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 10:42:06 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek Prices. In-Reply-To: <456462.77680.qm@web46409.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <707529541.4161911257345888550.JavaMail.root@sz0101a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <456462.77680.qm at web46409.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Wow: What is it about Ash Creek that gets people so bent.=A0 I went there and fo= und one stone in three days.=A0 I must say that being a meteorite dealer so= unds like a tough business - especially now with the economy.=A0 I can cert= ainly understand the secrecy since this is some peoples' livelihood and the= y do invest a lot of money.=A0 I agree with Sonny=2C anyone can go hunt met= eorites=3B all they need to do is do the research=2C and spend the money an= d time to travel.=A0 I do it for fun and relaxation=2C and not for profit.= =A0 I guess with all this - the demand for Ash Creek will continue to climb= . Greg S.=A0=20 ---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed=2C 4 Nov 2009 10:11:19 -0800 > From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com > To: meteoritehunter at comcast.net > CC: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek Prices. > > First off=2C I would like to say I am not whining. I did not make any per= sonal remarks towards you=2C and you are totally out of line... > The ONLY remark I made with your name in it was about Carancas and your e= xperience. Perhaps you took that as negative=2C it was not. I was offering = my opinions as to what helped push Carancas to the $100 mark. > > I made comments that reflect my opinions on this issue=2C and I understan= d that they are not popular with some=2C but as I said=2C this is the resul= t of what I have seen and the impression I have been given by watching some= of the discussions on this list. > > The issue concerning you and Steve=2C while I know nothing about it=2C di= d that need to become public issue? This even=2C you could have easily sent= me an email off list. Instead you take the oppertunity to publicly flame a= nd insult me. Over what? My opinions that certain meteorites are overpriced= and artificially inflated? > > I understand the costs involved in hunting can be high and I never have d= isputed that. > > As I said before=2C I have been into meteorites for all of 3 years. I wil= l be the first to admit that I dont know all of the details. I am trying to= understand them and the politics involved in meteorites. > > I want to ask=2C is it really good to show the conduct you do to new peop= le trying to learn? Sure=2C my opinions may be incorrect=2C but the actions= you just showed has only reinforced my feelings to a degree. > > You could have left out all the personal remarks and been just as effecti= ve. Instead you choose to take shots at me for my feelings... Way to go. > > Greg C. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Wed=2C 11/4/09=2C meteoritehunter at comcast.net wrote: > >> From: meteoritehunter at comcast.net=20 >> Subject: Ash Creek Prices. >> To: meteoritekid at gmail.com >> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com=2C star_wars_collector at yahoo.com >> Date: Wednesday=2C November 4=2C 2009=2C 9:44 AM >> #yiv576588598 p >> {margin:0=3B} >> Geg and Jason=2C >> >> Greg's whining is out of control. >> Ash Creek was perhaps overpriced at $100 per gram for >> stones larger than a gram or two. However=2C you are acting >> like every person there came home with pockets full. >> Give me a break=2C most people were lucky to go home with >> 3 or 4 small stones=2C 90% under 10 grams. >> I am sure you are both smart=2C so do this=2C check on >> airplane tickets=2C o say from California to Dallas Texas. >> Short notice tickets were expensive=2C I am sure no one paid >> less than $300 to $400.00 >> I myself=2C on three trip there=2C spent more than $1500 on >> tickets >> Car rentals for me for one month=2C more than >> $1200.00. >> Hotel=2C more than $2000.00 >> Food I dont count since I eat anywhere. >> Not to mention that little thing called my time=2C more >> than 20 days of hunting=2C time when I could make no other >> sales. >> >> THOUSANDS on expenses=2C I found all of 20 stones. I >> walked more than 200 miles (320 km) to find those stone. I >> want to keep almost all=2C so there was about 5 stones I was >> willing to sell. >> WOW=2C I guess I should have put $5.00 gram on those >> stones an made about $200.00 >> hmmm=2C that would not even be worth my time to >> package them based on expenses. >> Now=2C take most people who went home with say 5 or 6 >> stones=2C perhaps $1200.00 in expenses=2C and most stones 2 or 3 >> grams were the norm. Again=2C not even making expenses back >> and we worked our asses off to find those little stones. So >> people set the price in the $100 gram range=2C and buyers paid >> it. >> >> Prices have dropped now because collectors have all the >> Ash Creek they want apparently. I was in Munich last >> week though=2C and I had no ash creek for sale and was >> asked by several people for it. >> >> Greg stop your crying=2C it is really getting old=2C >> and I am not sure if you have noticed=2C but a large number of >> people have dropped off the list=2C it has become a pitiful >> place full of whining and crying and little else. >> Get over yourself. >> >> You want to find the Benson fall=2C get off your ass=2C as >> we said months ago=2C get out here and look for it. What do >> you want=2C for me to drive you to the strewnfield and >> hold your hand while you search? Should I give you my single >> piece I found because you want it? >> You are no being resonable or logical. When the >> coordinates are published=2C you are welcome to hunt all you >> want. >> Michael Farmer >> > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list =20 _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/= From jakub at meteorites.pl Wed Nov 4 13:20:52 2009 From: jakub at meteorites.pl (jakub at meteorites.pl) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 19:20:52 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] [AD] The Chemical Classification of Iron Meteorites by John T. Wasson Message-ID: <4AF1C604.6060401@meteorites.pl> The Chemical Classification of Iron Meteorites: Lot of 8 parts (I, II, III, IV, VI, VII, VIII, and IX) by John T. Wasson in very good+ condition (9 out of 10). $50 shipped. Off list, please. Thanks, Jakub Radwan From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Wed Nov 4 14:15:59 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 11:15:59 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Messenger spies iron on Mercury Message-ID: List: Greg S. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8342000.stm Mercury is even more of an "iron planet" than scientists had previously supposed. Richer concentrations of iron and titanium have been seen on Mercury's surface by Nasa's Messenger probe. Previous Earth and spacecraft-based observations had detected only very low amounts of iron in the silicate minerals covering the innermost world. Because of its immense density, scientists have already assumed much of Mercury's interior contains iron. Messenger sees the surface iron bound up in oxides with titanium. The mission's principal investigator, Sean Solomon, said the new observations would keep theoreticians busy. ??? PLANET MERCURY Enhanced-colour view of volcanic region Closest planet to the Sun; smallest in Solar System Visited by Mariner 10 in 1970s; by Messenger currently Diameter: 4,880km, about one-third the size of Earth Second densest planet in Solar System; 5.3x that of water Caloris basin is largest known feature (1,300km in diameter) Possibility of water-ice in permanently shadowed craters Huge iron core takes up more than 60% of the planet's mass Surface temperatures swing between 425C and -180C Has an extremely thin atmosphere (exosphere) Only inner planet besides Earth with global magnetic field Q&A: Mercury space probe "The iron is in a form that we don't normally encounter in other planetary situations and so it's going be a volley back to our geochemists and petrologists to come up with a scenario that's consistent with everything we are measuring now at Mercury," he told reporters. Theories on how the planet formed would also have to take the information into account, he added. Some of these propose that Mercury is predominantly the remnant core of a body which lost its outer layers in a mighty collision early in its history. The new data was returned on Messenger's third and final flyby of the planet in September. The pass, just 228km from the surface, was intended as a brake manoeuvre, using planet's gravity to help slow the spacecraft enough to enable it to enter into orbit in 2011. The spacecraft acquired only about half the data it was expected to because of a power "hiccup" just before closest approach. Nonetheless, Messenger's cameras and instruments collected many high-resolution and colour images, unveiling another 6% of the planet's surface never before seen up-close. Messenger has now viewed about 98% of the surface at various resolutions. New features observed in the pass include a region with a bright area surrounding an irregular depression, suspected to be volcanic in origin. Messenger (Nasa/JHU/APL) Messenger is on course to enter into orbit in March 2011 It also spied a very young double-ring impact basin approximately 290-km across. "However, to a planetary geologist, 'young' is a billion years or so. But compared to most of the basins on Mercury, those are three billion years older that. So in a relative sense it is very geologically young," explained Brett Denevi, a member of the probe's imaging team from Arizona State University in Tempe. The low numbers of superposed impact craters and marked differences in colour across the basin suggest that the smooth area within the innermost ring may be the site of some of the most recent volcanism on Mercury, she added. Messenger also made new measurements of Mercury's "atmosphere", the extremely tenuous cloud of atoms which is lifted off the surface by solar activity and micro-meteorite impacts. Jonathan.Amos-INTERNET at bbc.co.uk _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From mlblood at cox.net Wed Nov 4 14:32:04 2009 From: mlblood at cox.net (Michael Blood) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 11:32:04 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] eBay "Questions" / photos In-Reply-To: <93aaac890911032110v15b90536pdf0570ef5088499b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Fellow collectors, I am wondering if others have noticed this and Have concerns as do I: I have noted two recent trends with eBay (at least regarding meteorites, which are 99 % of my eBay interest) 1: Up until very recently a perspective bidder could send a question To the seller regarding the piece. NOW, there is an IMPLICATION You can ask a question, but, in fact, there is just a list of stock answers In a few categories upon which you may click.... 2: Up until recently one could download (a) photo(s) of what one was Buying. Now, about 95% of the time one cannot. (It seams curiously Inconsistent that in a very small minority of cases one still can....) Do other list members have concerns about this shift in eBay? RSVP to list, Michael From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Wed Nov 4 14:37:49 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 11:37:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] eBay "Questions" / photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <498769.85355.qm@web46407.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hey, hope this will help some... 1. questions tab - You have to scroll all the way down to see the ask question tab, its there, but skillfully buried at the bottom of the page where most people think it has vanished. I can help on the picture thing other then comment I have been having issues uploading pics to ebay. Ebay is changing a good deal of policies and is full of glitches right now. I am a top rated seller, everything say it, yet ebays system seems to be leaving out many members who qualify. I have been told techs are trying to fix it. I am a "TRS" but dont have the badge or search results that I should by having it. Add to that, there is a tab under advanced search that excludes everyone but top rated sellers. --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Michael Blood wrote: > From: Michael Blood > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] eBay "Questions" / photos > To: "Meteorite List" > Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 2:32 PM > Fellow collectors, > ? ? ? ? I am wondering if others have > noticed this and > Have concerns as do I:? I have noted two recent trends > with eBay > (at least regarding meteorites, which are 99 % of my eBay > interest) > > 1: Up until very recently a perspective bidder could send a > question > To the seller regarding the piece. NOW, there is an > IMPLICATION > You can ask a question, but, in fact, there is just a list > of stock answers > In a few categories upon which you may click.... > > 2: Up until recently one could download (a) photo(s) of > what one was > Buying. Now, about 95% of the time one cannot. (It seams > curiously > Inconsistent that in a very small minority of cases one > still can....) > > ? ? ? ? Do other list members have > concerns about this shift in eBay? > ? ? ? ? RSVP to list, Michael > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From joshuatreemuseum at embarqmail.com Wed Nov 4 15:01:27 2009 From: joshuatreemuseum at embarqmail.com (JoshuaTreeMuseum) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 15:01:27 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Men 6 More Episodes Message-ID: <71B13D8246374217896D21F5B939F0B4@ET> Looks like they got 6 more shows: http://www.worldscreen.com/articles/display/23118 Science Channel Commissions More Meteorite Men By Kristin Brzoznowski Published: October 29, 2009 SILVER SPRING: Science Channel has commissioned LMNO Cable Group for six further episodes of Meteorite Men, which chronicles modern-day treasure hunters Geoff Notkin and Steve Arnold as they traverse North America in search of lost pieces of our universe. Slated to debut January, 20, 2010, Meteorite Men watches as the duo use cutting-edge technology to detect remnants of meteorites and space debris. For the new season, Notkin and Arnold are looking to find answers to The Tucson Ring Mystery, an anomaly of the meteorite world. The pair head to Odessa, Texas, to explore a 65,000 year-old meteor buried deep in the ground, and scour West Texas for tiny pieces of the Ash Creek meteorite. "Meteorite Men uniquely combines adventure with science," said Debbie Myers, Science Channel's general manager. "Steve and Geoff are helping us learn more about the universe by bridging the gap between the earth sciences and their passion for finding and studying meteorites." "There have been many reality television shows that have attempted to search for 'visitors' from outer space," added Eric Schotz, the show's executive producer. "With our new series, we are actually finding them. It is very exciting to follow Steve and Geoff as they gather objects from space that can answer all sorts of incredible questions about our past as well as our future." Phil Whitmer From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Wed Nov 4 15:37:41 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 12:37:41 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Men 6 More Episodes In-Reply-To: <71B13D8246374217896D21F5B939F0B4@ET> References: <71B13D8246374217896D21F5B939F0B4@ET> Message-ID: List: Can any of these shows be seen on an internet based site?? I do not get the Science Channel. Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > From: joshuatreemuseum at embarqmail.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 15:01:27 -0500 > Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Men 6 More Episodes > > Looks like they got 6 more shows: > > http://www.worldscreen.com/articles/display/23118 > > Science Channel Commissions More Meteorite Men > By Kristin Brzoznowski > Published: October 29, 2009 > SILVER SPRING: Science Channel has commissioned LMNO Cable Group for six > further episodes of Meteorite Men, which chronicles modern-day treasure > hunters Geoff Notkin and Steve Arnold as they traverse North America in > search of lost pieces of our universe. > > Slated to debut January, 20, 2010, Meteorite Men watches as the duo use > cutting-edge technology to detect remnants of meteorites and space debris. > For the new season, Notkin and Arnold are looking to find answers to The > Tucson Ring Mystery, an anomaly of the meteorite world. The pair head to > Odessa, Texas, to explore a 65,000 year-old meteor buried deep in the > ground, and scour West Texas for tiny pieces of the Ash Creek meteorite. > > "Meteorite Men uniquely combines adventure with science," said Debbie Myers, > Science Channel's general manager. "Steve and Geoff are helping us learn > more about the universe by bridging the gap between the earth sciences and > their passion for finding and studying meteorites." > > "There have been many reality television shows that have attempted to search > for 'visitors' from outer space," added Eric Schotz, the show's executive > producer. "With our new series, we are actually finding them. It is very > exciting to follow Steve and Geoff as they gather objects from space that > can answer all sorts of incredible questions about our past as well as our > future." > > > > Phil Whitmer > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From fujmon at mac.com Wed Nov 4 14:42:22 2009 From: fujmon at mac.com (Gary Fujihara) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:42:22 -1000 Subject: [meteorite-list] eBay "Questions" / photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B8E51C1-DF63-46CB-9F74-7D55D368D89F@mac.com> Aloha Michael, listees, > Fellow collectors, > I am wondering if others have noticed this and > Have concerns as do I: I have noted two recent trends with eBay > (at least regarding meteorites, which are 99 % of my eBay interest) > > 1: Up until very recently a perspective bidder could send a question > To the seller regarding the piece. NOW, there is an IMPLICATION > You can ask a question, but, in fact, there is just a list of stock > answers > In a few categories upon which you may click.... I believe there are a list of stock questions the prospective buyer can choose from ("General question about the item" is usually the one people will select), after which a text field is offered to input a specific question. > 2: Up until recently one could download (a) photo(s) of what one was > Buying. Now, about 95% of the time one cannot. (It seams curiously > Inconsistent that in a very small minority of cases one still can....) I can download images if they are embedded in the text body on the ebay auction item page, by dragging them off the page and onto my desktop, for example). If the pictures are obtained by clicking on the thumbnail on the upper left portion of the ebay auction item page, to bring up another window that displays just the pictures, along with with thumbnails of additional images - then these images cannot be dragged and dropped or downloaded. I use a screen capture tool to be able to "acquire" those pictures. gary > > Do other list members have concerns about this shift in eBay? > RSVP to list, Michael > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Gary Fujihara AstroDay Institute 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720 (808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com http://astroday.net From eric at meteoritesusa.com Wed Nov 4 16:16:22 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:16:22 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Sometimes there just aren't enough rocks. Message-ID: <4AF1EF26.4090801@meteoritesusa.com> A little fun response to all the gripes about prices and hunting... (no offense to anyone of course) http://www.meteoritesusa.com/fun/rocks.wav Enjoy... Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA From bernd.pauli at paulinet.de Wed Nov 4 16:23:28 2009 From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de (bernd.pauli at paulinet.de) Date: 04 Nov 2009 21:23:28 UT Subject: [meteorite-list] Sometimes there just aren't enough rocks Message-ID: http://www.meteoritesusa.com/fun/rocks.wav Hmm, ... have been listening to it quite a few times but can't hear the "aren't" :-( All I can hear is an "are" :-) Is it only me? Well, maybe I need a pair of new ears ;-) Bernd From GeoZay at aol.com Wed Nov 4 16:23:32 2009 From: GeoZay at aol.com (GeoZay at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:23:32 EST Subject: [meteorite-list] eBay "Questions" / photos Message-ID: >>2: Up until recently one could download (a) photo(s) of what one was Buying. Now, about 95% of the time one cannot. (It seams curiously Inconsistent that in a very small minority of cases one still can....)<< to tell the truth, with a little persistance, I've been able to copy most photos posted on ebay. What I often do is either Select All or just highlight the photo. then Paste onto the body of a message. Then double left click on the photo itself. This brings up the photo in a box where several things of me is asked. the one I click is "Save a Copy". A box comes up where I can give the file a name. I do that and click save. the photo is now in my "Pictures" file. Sometimes I need to spruce the photo up and I then find it in my Corel Photo Enhancing program. I do the necessary enhancing and its all done. GeoZay From eric at meteoritesusa.com Wed Nov 4 16:33:51 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:33:51 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Sometimes there just aren't enough rocks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF1F33F.9050303@meteoritesusa.com> That's weird, maybe it's the player. It's a .wav file and should play in almost all browsers players without a problem. What media player do you have installed? Regards, Eric bernd.pauli at paulinet.de wrote: > http://www.meteoritesusa.com/fun/rocks.wav > > Hmm, ... have been listening to it quite a few times but can't hear the "aren't" :-( > > All I can hear is an "are" :-) > > Is it only me? Well, maybe I need a pair of new ears ;-) > > Bernd > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > From bernd.pauli at paulinet.de Wed Nov 4 16:39:07 2009 From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de (bernd.pauli at paulinet.de) Date: 04 Nov 2009 21:39:07 UT Subject: [meteorite-list] Re-2: Sometimes there just aren't enough rocks Message-ID: > What media player do you have installed? => Windows Media Player Cheers, Bernd From lintonius at earthlink.net Wed Nov 4 16:53:03 2009 From: lintonius at earthlink.net (Linton Rohr) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 13:53:03 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Sometimes there just ont enough rocks References: <4AF1F33F.9050303@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: <96CFCA6144144BE1BB5C5F030DD850E0@D190TH71> Yep, sometimes der jes ONT 'nuff. ;^) I jes got me suma dat der Peekskill rock. Kewl. Der ain't mucha dat n 'round. Linton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Meteorites USA" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Sometimes there just aren't enough rocks > That's weird, maybe it's the player. > > It's a .wav file and should play in almost all browsers players without a > problem. > > What media player do you have installed? > > Regards, > Eric > > bernd.pauli at paulinet.de wrote: >> http://www.meteoritesusa.com/fun/rocks.wav >> Hmm, ... have been listening to it quite a few times but can't hear the >> "aren't" :-( >> >> All I can hear is an "are" :-) >> >> Is it only me? Well, maybe I need a pair of new ears ;-) >> >> Bernd >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From grf2 at comcast.net Wed Nov 4 16:57:26 2009 From: grf2 at comcast.net (Jerry Flaherty) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:57:26 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 3, 2009 References: <732732.76895.qm@web113008.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8980804C52B241428FE3F07FF79BDECA@ASUS> What a wonderful kaleidoscope John -------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Johnson" Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 8:33 AM To: Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 3,2009 > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_3_2009.html > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From meteoritekid at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 17:04:55 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 14:04:55 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek Prices. In-Reply-To: <707529541.4161911257345888550.JavaMail.root@sz0101a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <707529541.4161911257345888550.JavaMail.root@sz0101a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <93aaac890911041404p72bb4cbekfac472866780a894@mail.gmail.com> Michael, Frankly, I'm insulted by your crassness and apparent lack of knowledge about practically everything I wrote - or at least, your negligence in addressing it in your email paired with the other things you said seems to say as much. You sent and addressed that message to me, and yet it really does not address any of my points; yes, collectors went there, and yes, many came away with little or no material. The average weight of the stones found, as tabulated, was 39.8 grams; as such, I believe your estimate of 90% of the stones found weighing less than 10g is quite simply false. True, fewer larger stones were found, but many were found in the 20-30 gram range; in fact, stones between 10-20g compose the majority of the stones found. That said, well - I'll go through your email thoroughly. > Greg's whining is out of control. Uncalled for. He really didn't say a word about you - his ideas may not have been right, but if you start talking to people like that, you're not going to have very many friends. > Ash Creek was perhaps overpriced at $100 per gram for stones larger than a > gram or two. However, you are acting like every person there came home with > pockets full. It's an ordinary chondrite - a pretty fall, admittedly, but why would you say it should have cost five times the going price of Park Forest? Again, you're not addressing the entire gist of the thread. I never once "complained" about the high prices. It was a thread composed by people hypothesizing why in fact the prices were so high. Since they are. And you can't really argue with that. > Give me a break, most people were lucky to go home with 3 or 4 small stones, > 90% under 10 grams. According to the list of finds tabulated and posted to the list, no, that is not true. Many people did go home with that many stones, but more than half of the hunters at least one find above 60 grams. See the March 24th post to the list regarding a tabulation of West finds to that date. At any rate, more than 2/3 of the people who participated had found more than fifty grams of material overall, but the fact that more than half had a stone above sixty grams pretty much flies in the face of what you just said. > I am sure you are both smart, so do this, check on airplane tickets, o say > from California to Dallas Texas. Short notice tickets were expensive, I am > sure no one paid less than $300 to $400.00 Yeah, I think we paid $700 each, roundtrip - booked the night before. > I myself, on three trip there, spent more than $1500 on tickets Pretty much what we paid. > Car rentals for me for one month, more than $1200.00. Well, we were only there for a week - our cost was a few hundred dollars, so you beat us there. > Hotel, more than $2000.00 Well, if you lived there for a month, I guess that would run up - so you're beating our cost by about $3,000, with a total cost of $4,700. > Food I dont count since I eat anywhere. So no additional cost there on top of living expenses. > Not to mention that little thing called my time, more than 20 days of > hunting, time when I could make no other sales. I don't know what that would add up to, but - pretty much irrelevant - see below. > THOUSANDS on expenses, I found all of 20 stones. I walked more than 200 > miles (320 km) to find those stone. I want to keep almost all, so there was > about 5 stones I was willing to sell. Right - we estimate that we walked 15-20 miles per day every day for I think five or six days - I can't recall the first and last dates clearly now. At least ~100 miles, at any rate - no different than if we'd spent a week in the local Mojave. I don't know what your base expenses were - I suppose $50/day on Enders' farm and $1/g on finds - plus whatever else you paid people. > WOW, I guess I should have put $5.00 gram on those stones an made about > $200.00 See, this is where I get confused. Whenever anyone questions the price of West, I always see this kind of a response. Even if you spent all thirty days on Ender's farm, it would amount to a mere $1,500 in cost to you - trivial in comparison to the amount of material you walked away with given the price per gram that you're suggesting. Again, see below. > ?hmmm, that would not even be worth my time to package them based on > expenses. Well, yeah. $200.00...but I'm not one to pull numbers out of my ass. See below. > Now, take most people who went home with say 5 or 6 stones, perhaps $1200.00 > in expenses, and most stones 2 or 3 grams were the norm. Either they didn't participate in the list survey or your numbers are simply wrong. > Again, not even > making expenses back and we worked our asses off to find those little > stones. So people set the price in the $100 gram range, and buyers paid it. Most of the people you're talking about would have been collectors, not dealers. Looking at that list from March 24th, most dealers netted at least a few hundred grams. > Prices have dropped now because collectors have all the Ash Creek they want > apparently. I was in?Munich last week though, and I had no ash creek for > sale and was asked?by several people for it. If people are asking for it, then there is demand. This bit doesn't make sense. > Greg?stop your crying, it is really getting old, and I am not sure if you > have noticed, but a large number of people have dropped off the list, it has > become a pitiful place full of whining and crying and little else. Again, a good way to make someone hate you, especially when they haven't spoken a word against you. > Get over yourself. I assume this is directed at me, since the previous comment was directed at Greg, and the email is addressed to both him and myself. All I can say is - you're one to talk. > You want to find the Benson fall, get off your ass, as we said months ago, > get out here and look for it. What do you want, for me to? drive you to the > strewnfield and hold your hand while you search? Should I give you my single > piece I found because you want it? Perhaps you're talking to Greg? I haven't spoken a word about Benson, and was too busy to go there at the time. I'm a full-time student, Michael. Double-majoring and all. Kind of busy. Trust me, I wanted to go - you of all people should know that. But I have a life that doesn't let me drop everything at a moment's notice to do what I love. I didn't complain. Why are you sending this to me. > You are no being resonable or logical. When the coordinates are published, > you are welcome to hunt all you want. Again, I shall merely say - you're one to talk. Your argument is based on no real data, and the content of this message is, to be frank, inappropriate. Even if you think Greg was wrong, this is no way to talk to a peer or a colleague. I'm not really sure why you addressed this to me as well, since you didn't address a single iota of what my messages to the list were actually about, but I'm offended all the same by what you said. Oh - and at $100/g, you made 2657g x $100g = $265,700 off of one month working this fall. At $50/g, 132,850 At $40/g, $106,280 At $30/g, $79,710 At $20/g, $53,140 At $5/g, $13,285 If your expenses were in the $20k range, which I'm assuming they were given your stated costs, you made $240,000+ (at $100/g), off of this fall. Or if you kept 2kg of material, and sold a mere 660g you got paid ~$50,000 and 2kg of West for your month of work. Just thought I'd crunch some numbers...I'll say nothing about what they might mean, though I think the people to whom you cc'd this message will find them interesting enough. I have to go; I have a 2pm class. Jason From meteoritekid at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 18:36:32 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 15:36:32 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek Prices. In-Reply-To: <39726843.4389941257373954656.JavaMail.root@sz0101a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <93aaac890911041404p72bb4cbekfac472866780a894@mail.gmail.com> <39726843.4389941257373954656.JavaMail.root@sz0101a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <93aaac890911041536k6cbb2ad0t85a594bd64a2402e@mail.gmail.com> Michael, You wrote my name at the top of your post; it wasn't the accident of a reply-function that put me there. True, I didn't weight the averages, but take a look at the March 24th post; most of the stones *were* between ten and twenty grams. And all of the other numbers I stated - that the majority of finders came away with a stone 60g or larger, and that more than 2/3 of hunters came back with ~50g grams or more - that's all true. My average might not represent the weighted average weight of the stones, but your replies - that most hunters came away with a gram or two, and that most stones found weighed a gram or two are also not entirely true. While many of the stones found were in that range, the majority were 10-15g+. > For your information, Greg has been pounding me and Jack for months about > Arizona, this is what this is about. Ok...then next time please don't involve me by writing my name at the top of the page... > Your data on Ash Creek is very wrong though, you are simply adding up the > total weight and dividing it among known stones for an average weight, > totally unscientific. Yes and no - see above. > Three?large stones weighed neary 40% of the mass recovered. I know most > hunters found one or two over 20 grams, but most were less than 10 grams. That only effects the weighted average of the weights - not the other things I said - again, addressed above. > Anyway, Jason, why dont you search for stones I sold, NEVER one gram on > ebay, I sold two stones to collectors, both stone in the 5 gram or less > range. The rest I kept or traded to ASU at a $30 gram trade rate (fair price > in my view and theirs as they were happy). That does sound fair, but then I fail to see why you wrote a post seeming to defend the $100/g price tag *especially* when you yourself saw this as unreasonable and donated many of your finds for $30/g. I still see that price as high, by the way - compare to Park Forest, which sells in the $20-25/g range nowadays. > I sold the large stone for not far above $10 gram. Fair price.? so the > argument about $100 gram is moot on my part anyway, as I never participated > in those sales. Again, I used those numbers because you criticized Greg's note saying that prices were unreasonable. And they were. At $100/g, I would have made $19,000 if I sold my stones. Not bad for a week's walking around. Of course, that would only be a profit of $17,000 or so, but still. Which really begs the question - based on what you're saying now, you should have no beef with Greg whatsoever over what he was saying about the price range on West. He wasn't asking for $5/g - in my opinion (and, from what I gathered, this was his opinion as well), if the stones sold in the $20-30/g range, prices would actually be *fair.* I wouldn't call them good prices, and I personally wouldn't buy them at that price, but I think that's what he was getting at. The older prices for West ($60-100/g) simply don't make sense. Again, I find it hard to find a flaw in this statement given the fact that expenses for Park Forest were undoubtedly higher, the fall was much more interesting (so many hammers, an urban fall!), and...the tkw's aren't *that* far apart. It's the only fall I can really relate West to, as it's the only sizable American fall from which any number of stones was made available to collectors in the past decade or so. > Please dont even think about making these kind of profit statements, as they > are so far off they aren't even funny. You seem(ed) to be defending the $100/g price tag, so I used it. Don't blame me. > The buyer of the mass is on this list, he can contact you should he desire > to confirm my price. Don't really care - as I said, that wasn't my point in the first place. > I have to go back and look at the books but in all honesty, I cleared about > $3000 after expenses on Ash Creek and have a nice little pile of stones on > the side. Again, don't care. Wasn't the point of my email. > Not quite the mega numbers you are putting in your email. Mhm. But now you seem to be advocating the $30/g price tag, or thereabouts, so I've really nothing to say - from my perspective, you've done a 180. > Either way, this argument still comes down to one simple fact I am trying to > get through to Greg, if you dont like the price, don't pay it. That's not what you said at all. Go have a look at the email - if that's what you were trying to say, you didn't accomplish it, and you made it a pretty mean email on top of that. > Just don't keep crying neary a year later. I assume you're talking to him, not me. And the language, again - you're asking for people to take offense. This is the sort of thing my older brother would say to me to goad me into fighting - 'you're such a crybaby' and all of that rubbish. I have two things to say to this: 1) You're sending an email out to 900 people. Saying stuff like that so that everyone can see it is...kind of embarrassing. 2) It just doesn't belong. If you have a beef with him, you should both have it out on the side, maturely. Goading...just doesn't belong. > I am not too concerned at this point about Greg Catterton, he wants us to > give him everything, and nothing less will satisfy him. Asking for prices that were in the $20-30/g range isn't insane. It's what collectors have come to expect the price tag to be on new American falls, due to what we've seen in the past. There's really nothing to explain the 500% markup between Ash Creek and Park Forest prices...there just isn't. You seem to be suggesting that the price was $100/g, but since he's asking for less, he must be asking for the stones for next-to-nothing. Your logic is just...well, it's not logic. Asking for fairer prices on a fall that's $100/g doesn't mean he's asking you to sell at $5/g. That's just taking what he said and twisting it so that he looks stupid, when he's really asking for something that is, at least from what I've seen over the past eleven years in the market, quite reasonable. > So I don't expect a Christmas card from him as this point. I don't understand your point of view - it would seem to me that losing a customer would be a bad thing. Jason > Michael Farmer > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jason Utas" > To: meteoritehunter at comcast.net > Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, "star wars collector" > > Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 3:04:55 PM GMT -07:00 U.S. Mountain Time > (Arizona) > Subject: Re: Ash Creek Prices. > > Michael, > Frankly, I'm insulted by your crassness and apparent lack of knowledge > about practically everything I wrote - or at least, your negligence in > addressing it in your email paired with the other things you said > seems to say as much. > You sent and addressed that message to me, and yet it really does not > address any of my points; yes, collectors went there, and yes, many > came away with little or no material. > The average weight of the stones found, as tabulated, was 39.8 grams; > as such, I believe your estimate of 90% of the stones found weighing > less than 10g is quite simply false. ?True, fewer larger stones were > found, but many were found in the 20-30 gram range; in fact, stones > between 10-20g compose the majority of the stones found. > That said, well - I'll go through your email thoroughly. > >> Greg's whining is out of control. > > Uncalled for. ?He really didn't say a word about you - his ideas may > not have been right, but if you start talking to people like that, > you're not going to have very many friends. > >> Ash Creek was perhaps overpriced at $100 per gram for stones larger than a >> gram or two. However, you are acting like every person there came home >> with >> pockets full. > > It's an ordinary chondrite - a pretty fall, admittedly, but why would > you say it should have cost five times the going price of Park Forest? > ?Again, you're not addressing the entire gist of the thread. ?I never > once "complained" about the high prices. It was a thread composed by > people hypothesizing why in fact the prices were so high. ?Since they > are. ?And you can't really argue with that. > >> Give me a break, most people were lucky to go home with 3 or 4 small >> stones, >> 90% under 10 grams. > > According to the list of finds tabulated and posted to the list, no, > that is not true. ?Many people did go home with that many stones, but > more than half of the hunters at least one find above 60 grams. ?See > the March 24th post to the list regarding a tabulation of West finds > to that date. ?At any rate, more than 2/3 of the people who > participated had found more than fifty grams of material overall, but > the fact that more than half had a stone above sixty grams pretty much > flies in the face of what you just said. > >> I am sure you are both smart, so do this, check on airplane tickets, o say >> from California to Dallas Texas. Short notice tickets were expensive, I am >> sure no one paid less than $300 to $400.00 > > Yeah, I think we paid $700 each, roundtrip - booked the night before. > >> I myself, on three trip there, spent more than $1500 on tickets > > Pretty much what we paid. > >> Car rentals for me for one month, more than $1200.00. > > Well, we were only there for a week - our cost was a few hundred > dollars, so you beat us there. > >> Hotel, more than $2000.00 > > Well, if you lived there for a month, I guess that would run up - so > you're beating our cost by about $3,000, with a total cost of $4,700. > >> Food I dont count since I eat anywhere. > > So no additional cost there on top of living expenses. > >> Not to mention that little thing called my time, more than 20 days of >> hunting, time when I could make no other sales. > > I don't know what that would add up to, but - pretty much irrelevant - > see below. > >> THOUSANDS on expenses, I found all of 20 stones. I walked more than 200 >> miles (320 km) to find those stone. I want to keep almost all, so there >> was >> about 5 stones I was willing to sell. > > Right ?- we estimate that we walked 15-20 miles per day every day for > I think five or six days - I can't recall the first and last dates > clearly now. ?At least ~100 miles, at any rate - no different than if > we'd spent a week in the local Mojave. > I don't know what your base expenses were - I suppose $50/day on > Enders' farm and $1/g on finds - plus whatever else you paid people. > >> WOW, I guess I should have put $5.00 gram on those stones an made about >> $200.00 > > See, this is where I get confused. ?Whenever anyone questions the > price of West, I always see this kind of a response. > Even if you spent all thirty days on Ender's farm, it would amount to > a mere $1,500 in cost to you - trivial in comparison to the amount of > material you walked away with given the price per gram that you're > suggesting. ?Again, see below. > >> ?hmmm, that would not even be worth my time to package them based on >> expenses. > > Well, yeah. $200.00...but I'm not one to pull numbers out of my ass. > See below. > >> Now, take most people who went home with say 5 or 6 stones, perhaps >> $1200.00 >> in expenses, and most stones 2 or 3 grams were the norm. > > Either they didn't participate in the list survey or your numbers are > simply wrong. > >> Again, not even >> making expenses back and we worked our asses off to find those little >> stones. So people set the price in the $100 gram range, and buyers paid >> it. > > Most of the people you're talking about would have been collectors, > not dealers. ?Looking at that list from March 24th, most dealers > netted at least a few hundred grams. > >> Prices have dropped now because collectors have all the Ash Creek they >> want >> apparently. I was in?Munich last week though, and I had no ash creek for >> sale and was asked?by several people for it. > > If people are asking for it, then there is demand. ?This bit doesn't > make sense. > >> Greg?stop your crying, it is really getting old, and I am not sure if you >> have noticed, but a large number of people have dropped off the list, it >> has >> become a pitiful place full of whining and crying and little else. > > Again, a good way to make someone hate you, especially when they > haven't spoken a word against you. > >> Get over yourself. > > I assume this is directed at me, since the previous comment was > directed at Greg, and the email is addressed to both him and myself. > > All I can say is - you're one to talk. > >> You want to find the Benson fall, get off your ass, as we said months ago, >> get out here and look for it. What do you want, for me to? drive you to >> the >> strewnfield and hold your hand while you search? Should I give you my >> single >> piece I found because you want it? > > Perhaps you're talking to Greg? > I haven't spoken a word about Benson, and was too busy to go there at > the time. ?I'm a full-time student, Michael. ?Double-majoring and all. > ?Kind of busy. ?Trust me, I wanted to go - you of all people should > know that. ?But I have a life that doesn't let me drop everything at a > moment's notice to do what I love. ?I didn't complain. > Why are you sending this to me. > >> You are no being resonable or logical. When the coordinates are published, >> you are welcome to hunt all you want. > > Again, I shall merely say - you're one to talk. ?Your argument is > based on no real data, and the content of this message is, to be > frank, inappropriate. ?Even if you think Greg was wrong, this is no > way to talk to a peer or a colleague. > I'm not really sure why you addressed this to me as well, since you > didn't address a single iota of what my messages to the list were > actually about, but I'm offended all the same by what you said. > > Oh - and at $100/g, you made 2657g x $100g = $265,700 off of one month > working this fall. > At $50/g, 132,850 > At $40/g, $106,280 > At $30/g, $79,710 > At $20/g, $53,140 > At $5/g, $13,285 > > If your expenses were in the $20k range, which I'm assuming they were > given your stated costs, you made $240,000+ (at $100/g), off of this > fall. ?Or if you kept 2kg of material, and sold a mere 660g you got > paid ~$50,000 and 2kg of West for your month of work. > > Just thought I'd crunch some numbers...I'll say nothing about what > they might mean, though I think the people to whom you cc'd this > message will find them interesting enough. > > I have to go; I have a 2pm class. > > Jason > From mmurray at montrose.net Wed Nov 4 18:46:38 2009 From: mmurray at montrose.net (Michael Murray) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:46:38 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] sharing some pictures of little [suspect] irons Message-ID: Hi List, Thought some of you might like to see some more pictures of my little suspect irons that I have been trying to get cleaned up. It is a slow process. Here is a few of them. This little guy has what appears to be flow lines running down to the point, wouldn't you say? It took some long soaks in naval jelly to get it looking this clean. It's amazing what you can find when you get the crud off of them. The next two pictures are of the same piece. I'm kind of glad I found this one with the magnet rake and not my bicycle tire. This is one of the weirdest pieces I have found. It is a shell of iron filled with what appears to be chondritic material. It reminds me of a three-minute egg with the top taken off. I believe I have at least three pieces like this. I like how this one has a little finger on the one side, and how as it cooled it kept what looks like flowing metal. Here are the two I have been trying to get the calcium cover off of. One on left is 80% cleaned and the one on the right is just starting to show through. I'm using CLR. Slow process but it works. First time these two pieces have seen the light of day for probably a long time. Mike in CO From dave at fallingrocks.com Wed Nov 4 18:55:25 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:55:25 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Cryptic AZ fall? Message-ID: <1C1C280C627C450386A59C71B45BEFDD@meteorroom> What is the official name of the meteorite that fell in southern Arizona this summer? Heard it was "Benson" from someone. Everybody was looking for that one, but it's been quiet since Jack Schrader posted his announcement. This is probably because of all the other distractions. Stone number one was recovered by Schrader, a meteorite hunter, less than 45 hours after the fall. That's a first, at least here in the United States. Only European meteorite hunter Thomas Grau, I think, has triangulated and personally recovered the first stone from a fall before Schrader? Not nearly as quickly as Schrader found his piece, but almost improbable to believe this could happen twice in the same year and never before! Everyone out in the southwest hunted for the meteorite, but presumably no one else found a piece. Memory tells me that Schrader was very concerned with doing good field science around this fall - with documenting the event and mapping the strewn field? Only a few hunters were brought into his recovery project. Unusually enough, virtually nothing has been said publicly about this "new Arizona fall." Not until today, anyway. This is the first step towards formally introducing the meteorite to the public. Arizona's second-ever witnessed fall. It has been a real honor to have documented the event and recovery for Schrader. Now, whether you realize it or not, the meteorite's name is staring right at you. Shouldn't take long.so, who's going to be the first to figure it out? Dave Gheesling IMCA #5967 www.fallingrocks.com From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Wed Nov 4 18:58:03 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 00:58:03 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek Prices. In-Reply-To: <93aaac890911041536k6cbb2ad0t85a594bd64a2402e@mail.gmail.com> References: <93aaac890911041404p72bb4cbekfac472866780a894@mail.gmail.com><39726843.4389941257373954656.JavaMail.root@sz0101a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <93aaac890911041536k6cbb2ad0t85a594bd64a2402e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <013601ca5daa$a5d120d0$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> Hmm Jason, I just returned from Munich show. The halls were full of thousands of precious and semi-precious stones, all of them mined by the tonnes a year - and most of them priced higher per weight than any Ash Creek or any Lunar. Can't follow that debate, we slowly should get aware, how amazingly rare meteorites are and how amazingly cheap most of them still are. If you think, Ash Creek is overpriced - don't buy it. Buy the perfect individuals of the dozen of Maghreb falls at 2-4$. Cause that opportunity, if I remember right, you had only twice or so in history. With Allende the years after the fall and perhaps with luck with the early Juanchengs. (Only Alfianello was so cheap in the 1890ies and maybe Jilin, but these didn't yield small individuals - o.k. I don't know, at which rates fall-fresh Gaos were going in the 1960ies). Cheers! Martin From beardownbob at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 19:10:06 2009 From: beardownbob at gmail.com (Bob Holmes) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:10:06 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Cryptic AZ fall? In-Reply-To: <1C1C280C627C450386A59C71B45BEFDD@meteorroom> References: <1C1C280C627C450386A59C71B45BEFDD@meteorroom> Message-ID: <2bc48ad00911041610o535c3912w7dc1e006794a4798@mail.gmail.com> Hello List- Great post Dave. With all this talk of the West fall, I am surprised at the lack of interest in the AZ fall. There has been much less recovered and the tale of Jack's recovery effort provides an equally (if not moreso) interesting story. Further, I have not seen any of this new fall offered publicly. Good fortune allowed me to get a few smaller pieces. I am curious how its value compares to West. Cheers, Bob Holmes On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Dave Gheesling wrote: > What is the official name of the meteorite that fell in southern Arizona > this summer? ?Heard it was "Benson" from someone. ?Everybody was looking for > that one, but it's been quiet since Jack Schrader posted his announcement. > This is probably because of all the other distractions. > > Stone number one was recovered by Schrader, a meteorite hunter, less than 45 > hours after the fall. ?That's a first, at least here in the United States. > Only European meteorite hunter Thomas Grau, I think, has triangulated and > personally recovered the first stone from a fall before Schrader? ?Not > nearly as quickly as Schrader found his piece, but almost improbable to > believe this could happen twice in the same year and never before! ?Everyone > out in the southwest hunted for the meteorite, but presumably no one else > found a piece. > > Memory tells me that Schrader was very concerned with doing good field > science around this fall - with documenting the event and mapping the strewn > field? ?Only a few hunters were brought into his recovery project. > Unusually enough, virtually nothing has been said publicly about this "new > Arizona fall." ?Not until today, anyway. > > This is the first step towards formally introducing the meteorite to the > public. ?Arizona's second-ever witnessed fall. ?It has been a real honor to > have documented the event and recovery for Schrader. ?Now, whether you > realize it or not, the meteorite's name is staring right at you. ?Shouldn't > take long.so, who's going to be the first to figure it out? > > Dave Gheesling > IMCA #5967 > www.fallingrocks.com > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 4 19:42:28 2009 From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net (Brian Cox) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:42:28 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek-West Prices and all that LOVE coming through on here!!!!!! Message-ID: <0003F1C1359241F1980807C7399FADCD@user6e6e286533> WOW!!!!!!!!! I feel the LOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;-( From searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 4 19:52:24 2009 From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net (Brian Cox) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:52:24 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] ebay questions Message-ID: Hi Michael, Yes, the ebay stock answers started about a month ago, I don't have the exact date, but you get that list of all the stock questions and their answers, BUT if you click "Other" at the bottom of that list, then it allows you to send a personal message question to the seller. That supposedly is another of ebay's amazing methods of improving service. a.k.a. "Making more money and profit from sellers and buyers!" This is (as I have heard it from people more in tune with ebay than I) in response to so many sellers complaining to ebay that they were getting too many questions and didn't have time to list, so ebay thought that they would put all those stock questions and answers in just like every other website that has FAQs so that sellers didn't get so many questions. Again, if the person clicks on "other" at the bottom you can write a personal message to the ebay member. Hope this helps. Brian From dave at fallingrocks.com Wed Nov 4 19:52:14 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 19:52:14 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? Message-ID: <55E2EBAAA3004140993C26A39D591BBE@meteorroom> <> <> -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Dave Gheesling Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:55 PM To: 'meteorite list' Subject: [meteorite-list] Cryptic AZ fall? What is the official name of the meteorite that fell in southern Arizona this summer? Heard it was "Benson" from someone. Everybody was looking for that one, but it's been quiet since Jack Schrader posted his announcement. This is probably because of all the other distractions. Stone number one was recovered by Schrader, a meteorite hunter, less than 45 hours after the fall. That's a first, at least here in the United States. Only European meteorite hunter Thomas Grau, I think, has triangulated and personally recovered the first stone from a fall before Schrader? Not nearly as quickly as Schrader found his piece, but almost improbable to believe this could happen twice in the same year and never before! Everyone out in the southwest hunted for the meteorite, but presumably no one else found a piece. Memory tells me that Schrader was very concerned with doing good field science around this fall - with documenting the event and mapping the strewn field? Only a few hunters were brought into his recovery project. Unusually enough, virtually nothing has been said publicly about this "new Arizona fall." Not until today, anyway. This is the first step towards formally introducing the meteorite to the public. Arizona's second-ever witnessed fall. It has been a real honor to have documented the event and recovery for Schrader. Now, whether you realize it or not, the meteorite's name is staring right at you. Shouldn't take long.so, who's going to be the first to figure it out? Dave Gheesling IMCA #5967 www.fallingrocks.com ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From axelsson at acc.umu.se Wed Nov 4 19:52:22 2009 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:52:22 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] eBay "Questions" / photos In-Reply-To: <2B8E51C1-DF63-46CB-9F74-7D55D368D89F@mac.com> References: <2B8E51C1-DF63-46CB-9F74-7D55D368D89F@mac.com> Message-ID: <4AF221C6.5070604@acc.umu.se> Gary Fujihara wrote: >> 2: Up until recently one could download (a) photo(s) of what one was >> Buying. Now, about 95% of the time one cannot. (It seams curiously >> Inconsistent that in a very small minority of cases one still can....) > > I can download images if they are embedded in the text body on the > ebay auction item page, by dragging them off the page and onto my > desktop, for example). If the pictures are obtained by clicking on > the thumbnail on the upper left portion of the ebay auction item page, > to bring up another window that displays just the pictures, along with > with thumbnails of additional images - then these images cannot be > dragged and dropped or downloaded. I use a screen capture tool to be > able to "acquire" those pictures. > > gary > If you use firefox instead of internet explorer then you could right click on the page and select "Page info" and on the "Media" tab you could select any image on the page and save with a simple click. >> >> Do other list members have concerns about this shift in eBay? >> RSVP to list, Michael eBay is getting worse all the time, soon there will be other sites that is jumping on the opportunity that eBay is creating for them. I can hardly wait for it. /G?ran From lintonius at earthlink.net Wed Nov 4 19:59:41 2009 From: lintonius at earthlink.net (Linton Rohr) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:59:41 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? References: <55E2EBAAA3004140993C26A39D591BBE@meteorroom> Message-ID: Well, apparently not me, Dave! I jumped right on it, thinking I figure it out. I'm afraid I've surrendered. Anyone else? Linton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Gheesling" To: "'meteorite list'" Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:52 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? > < you>> > <> > > -----Original Message----- > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Dave > Gheesling > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:55 PM > To: 'meteorite list' > Subject: [meteorite-list] Cryptic AZ fall? > > What is the official name of the meteorite that fell in southern Arizona > this summer? Heard it was "Benson" from someone. Everybody was looking > for > that one, but it's been quiet since Jack Schrader posted his announcement. > This is probably because of all the other distractions. > > Stone number one was recovered by Schrader, a meteorite hunter, less than > 45 > hours after the fall. That's a first, at least here in the United States. > Only European meteorite hunter Thomas Grau, I think, has triangulated and > personally recovered the first stone from a fall before Schrader? Not > nearly as quickly as Schrader found his piece, but almost improbable to > believe this could happen twice in the same year and never before! > Everyone > out in the southwest hunted for the meteorite, but presumably no one else > found a piece. > > Memory tells me that Schrader was very concerned with doing good field > science around this fall - with documenting the event and mapping the > strewn > field? Only a few hunters were brought into his recovery project. > Unusually enough, virtually nothing has been said publicly about this "new > Arizona fall." Not until today, anyway. > > This is the first step towards formally introducing the meteorite to the > public. Arizona's second-ever witnessed fall. It has been a real honor > to > have documented the event and recovery for Schrader. Now, whether you > realize it or not, the meteorite's name is staring right at you. > Shouldn't > take long.so, who's going to be the first to figure it out? > > Dave Gheesling > IMCA #5967 > www.fallingrocks.com > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Wed Nov 4 19:59:58 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 19:59:58 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] PDF Files of Papers About K-T and Alledged Younger Dryas Impacts Message-ID: <20091104195958.VO9UF.616685.imail@eastrmwml39> I. Bass River Drilling Project - Cretaceous-Tertiary Boundary http://geology.rutgers.edu/brimages.shtml Ejecta layer at the K/T Boundary, Bass River, New Jersey by R. K. Olsson and K. G. Miller http://www.oceanleadership.org/files/USSSP/PDFs/Greatest_Hits/Events/Olsson.pdf II. Chicxulub crater deep drilling project web page at: http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Claeys/Chicxulub/Chixproject.html and http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Claeys/Web-Chix/ICDP-Chix/chixintro.html III. PDF Files of Philippe Claeys's Papers There are a number of links to PDF files of papers concerning the Chicxulub Crater and the Cretaceous - Tertiary (KT) Boundary Mass Extinction Event by Philippe Claeys towards on his web page at: http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Claeys/Claeys.htm They include: Schulte, P., Speijer, R.P., Brinkhuis H., Kontny, A., Claeys, Ph., Galeotti, S., and Smit, J., 2008, Comment on the paper: "Chicxulub impact predates K-T boundary: New evidence from Brazos, Texas" by Keller et al. (2007). Earth and Planetary Science Letters. vol. 269, pp. 614-620. http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Claeys/Pubs/Schulte-2008.pdf Tagle R., Erzinger, J., Hecht, L., Schmitt, R. T., Stoeffler, D., and Claeys, Ph., 2004, Platinum group elements in impactites of the ICDP Chicxulub drill core Yaxcopoil-1. Are there traces of the projectile ? Meteoritics and Planetary Science. vol. 39, pp. 1009-1016, http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Claeys/Pubs/Tagle-etal-04.pdf Urrutia-Fucugauchi, J., Morgan, J., Stoeffler, D., and Claeys, Ph.,2004, The Chicxulub Scientific Drilling Project (CSDP). Meteoritics and Planetary Science, vol. 39, pp. 787-790. http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Claeys/Pubs/Urrutia-etal-04.pdf Claeys, Ph., Heuschkel, S., Lounejeva-Baturina, E., Sanchez- Rubio, G., Stoeffler, D., The suevite of drill hole Yucatan 6 in the Chicxulub impact crater. Meteoritics and Planetary Science. vol. 38, pp. 1299-1317. http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Claeys/Pubs/Claeys-etal-03.pdf Claeys, Ph., Kiessling, W. and Alvarez, W., 2002, Distribution of Chicxulub ejecta at the Cretaceous-Tertiary Boundary. Geological Society of America Special Paper no. 356, pp. 55-69. http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Claeys/Pubs/Claeys-etal-02.pdf Kiessling, W. and Claeys, Ph., 2001, geographic database approach to the K/T boundary. In Geological and Biological Effects of Impact Events. Eds. E. Buffetaut, and Koeberl C., Impact Studies, Springer Verlag Berlin p.83-140. http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Claeys/Pubs/Kiessling%26Claeys-01.pdf Jones, A.P., Claeys, Ph., and Heuschkel, S. Impact melting: a review of experimental constraints for carbonate targets and applications to the Chicxulub crater. In Impact and Early Earth. Eds. I. Gilmour and C. Koeberl, Lecture Notes in Earth Sciences, v. 91, p. 343-362, Springer Verlag Berlin. http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Claeys/Pubs/Jones-etal-01.pdf Grajales-Nishimura, J. M., Cedillo-Pardo, E., Rosales-Dom?nguez, C., Mor?n-Zenteno, J. D., Alvarez, W., Claeys, Ph., Ru?z-Morales, J., Garc?a-Hern?ndez, J., Padilla-Avila, P., and S?nchez-R?os, A., 1999, The Chicxulub impact: source for reservoirs and seals in southeastern Mexico oil fields. Geology. vol. 28, no. 4, pp. 307-310. http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Claeys/Pubs/Grajales-etal-00.pdf Pope, K.O., Ocampo, A.C., Fisher, A. G., Alvarez W., Fouke, B.W., Webster, C.L. Jr., Vega, F., Smit, J., Frische A. E., and Claeys, Ph., 1999, Proximal Chicxulub impact ejecta from Albion Island, Belize. Earth and Planetary Science Letters. vol. 170, pp. 351-364. http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Claeys/Pubs/Pope-etal-99.pdf Smit J., Roep, T.B., Alvarez W., Montanari, A., Claeys Ph., Grajales-Nishimura, J.M., and Bermudez, J., 1996, Coarse-grained, clastic sandstone complex at the KT boundary around the Gulf of Mexico: Deposition by tsunami waves induced by the Chicxulub impact? Geological Society of America Special Paper, vol. 307, pp. 151-182. http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Claeys/Pubs/Smit-etal-96.pdf Warren, P. H., Claeys Ph. and Cedillo-Pardo E., 1996, Mega- impact melt petrology (Chicxulub, Sudbury, and the Moon): Effects of scale and other factors on potential for fractional crystallization and development of cumulates. Geological Society of America Special Paper. vol. 307, pp. 105-124. http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Claeys/Pubs/Warren-etal-96.pdf IV PDF files of some of his popular works can be found in "Outreach to the media and public" at http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Press/Press.htm They include comments by him about the hypothesized terminal Pleistocene "Clovis Comet" impact. including: Le monde, 21 June 2008, interview in article: "La th?se de la m?t?orite tueuse de Mammouths sucite de vifs d?bats" [click here for article]. http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Press/Press.htm http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Press/Pdf%20files/Sciencevie-march-09.pdf Le monde, 05 January 2009, interview in article: "Une crise ?cologique tomb?e du ciel il y a 12900 ans?" http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Press/Press.htm http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Press/Pdf%20files/Lemonde-4jan09.pdf De Standaard, De Morgen, Het Laatste Nieuws, the 3 major Flemish newspapers, 20 October 2009, articles: "Mammoet stierf niet uit door buitenaardse inslag" http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Press/Press.htm http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Press/Pdf%20files/DeStandaard201009.pdf Le monde, 21 June 2008, interview in article: "La th?se de la m?t?orite tueuse de Mammouths sucite de vifs d?bats" http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Press/Press.htm http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Press/Pdf%20files/Lemonde.pdf Yours, Paul H. From searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 4 20:13:14 2009 From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net (Brian Cox) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 19:13:14 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek Prices and Park Forest and all this happy talk Message-ID: <9B3B6DDA359449D8B7C9401EC32E6D64@user6e6e286533> Gee WhiZ!!!!!!!! My head hurts! I never bought any Ash Creek, but I AM going down to the Bank Vault tomorrow To HUG my PARK FOREST!!!! At least I can say that I was in my apartment when I saw the fireball coming out of the north and going over downtown Chicago heading south to the suburb of Park Forest that night it landed. I gotta get some aspirin. ;-) From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Wed Nov 4 20:17:20 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:17:20 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Making Short Links (Tiny URL) was "Re Dust in the Wind" Message-ID: <20091104201720.T5KBA.616977.imail@eastrmwml39> Graham wrote: "and here is where the detail is...sorry about the long link... never have figured out how to make those short links!!" The best way to make short links is use the "Tiny URL" web page at: http://www.tiny.cc/ There is more information about "Tiny URL" at; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TinyURL Also, there is "URL Toolbox: 90+ URL Shortening Services" at; http://mashable.com/2008/01/08/url-shortening-services/ And "URL Shortening Services" at: http://www.hunch.com/url-shortening-services/ However, there are problems with Tiny URLs that are discussed in "URL shortening" at; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/URL_shortening#Criticism Best Regards, Paul H. From dave at fallingrocks.com Wed Nov 4 20:19:07 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:19:07 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? In-Reply-To: <195600.38815.qm@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <55E2EBAAA3004140993C26A39D591BBE@meteorroom> <195600.38815.qm@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7ADB909994524B469E9C1A20D3E86D47@meteorroom> Nay...at least not to my knowledge, Frank. -----Original Message----- From: Frank Cressy [mailto:fcressy at prodigy.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:14 PM To: dave at fallingrocks.com; meteorite list Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? Hi Dave, Is there a Cryptic, Arizona??? Frank ________________________________ From: Dave Gheesling To: meteorite list Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 4:52:14 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? <> <> -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Dave Gheesling Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:55 PM To: 'meteorite list' Subject: [meteorite-list] Cryptic AZ fall? What is the official name of the meteorite that fell in southern Arizona this summer?? Heard it was "Benson" from someone.? Everybody was looking for that one, but it's been quiet since Jack Schrader posted his announcement. This is probably because of all the other distractions. Stone number one was recovered by Schrader, a meteorite hunter, less than 45 hours after the fall.? That's a first, at least here in the United States. Only European meteorite hunter Thomas Grau, I think, has triangulated and personally recovered the first stone from a fall before Schrader?? Not nearly as quickly as Schrader found his piece, but almost improbable to believe this could happen twice in the same year and never before!? Everyone out in the southwest hunted for the meteorite, but presumably no one else found a piece. Memory tells me that Schrader was very concerned with doing good field science around this fall - with documenting the event and mapping the strewn field?? Only a few hunters were brought into his recovery project. Unusually enough, virtually nothing has been said publicly about this "new Arizona fall."? Not until today, anyway. This is the first step towards formally introducing the meteorite to the public.? Arizona's second-ever witnessed fall.? It has been a real honor to have documented the event and recovery for Schrader.? Now, whether you realize it or not, the meteorite's name is staring right at you.? Shouldn't take long.so, who's going to be the first to figure it out? Dave Gheesling IMCA #5967 www.fallingrocks.com ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From fcressy at prodigy.net Wed Nov 4 20:14:20 2009 From: fcressy at prodigy.net (Frank Cressy) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:14:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? In-Reply-To: <55E2EBAAA3004140993C26A39D591BBE@meteorroom> References: <55E2EBAAA3004140993C26A39D591BBE@meteorroom> Message-ID: <195600.38815.qm@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Dave, Is there a Cryptic, Arizona??? Frank ________________________________ From: Dave Gheesling To: meteorite list Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 4:52:14 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? <> <> -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Dave Gheesling Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:55 PM To: 'meteorite list' Subject: [meteorite-list] Cryptic AZ fall? What is the official name of the meteorite that fell in southern Arizona this summer?? Heard it was "Benson" from someone.? Everybody was looking for that one, but it's been quiet since Jack Schrader posted his announcement. This is probably because of all the other distractions. Stone number one was recovered by Schrader, a meteorite hunter, less than 45 hours after the fall.? That's a first, at least here in the United States. Only European meteorite hunter Thomas Grau, I think, has triangulated and personally recovered the first stone from a fall before Schrader?? Not nearly as quickly as Schrader found his piece, but almost improbable to believe this could happen twice in the same year and never before!? Everyone out in the southwest hunted for the meteorite, but presumably no one else found a piece. Memory tells me that Schrader was very concerned with doing good field science around this fall - with documenting the event and mapping the strewn field?? Only a few hunters were brought into his recovery project. Unusually enough, virtually nothing has been said publicly about this "new Arizona fall."? Not until today, anyway. This is the first step towards formally introducing the meteorite to the public.? Arizona's second-ever witnessed fall.? It has been a real honor to have documented the event and recovery for Schrader.? Now, whether you realize it or not, the meteorite's name is staring right at you.? Shouldn't take long.so, who's going to be the first to figure it out? Dave Gheesling IMCA #5967 www.fallingrocks.com ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From marc.d.fries at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Nov 4 20:03:26 2009 From: marc.d.fries at jpl.nasa.gov (Fries, Marc D (3225)) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:03:26 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? In-Reply-To: <55E2EBAAA3004140993C26A39D591BBE@meteorroom> Message-ID: Hm. Whetstone Mts., perhaps? Cheers, MDF On 11/4/09 5:52 PM, "Dave Gheesling" wrote: > < you>> > <> > > -----Original Message----- > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Dave > Gheesling > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:55 PM > To: 'meteorite list' > Subject: [meteorite-list] Cryptic AZ fall? > > What is the official name of the meteorite that fell in southern Arizona > this summer? Heard it was "Benson" from someone. Everybody was looking for > that one, but it's been quiet since Jack Schrader posted his announcement. > This is probably because of all the other distractions. > > Stone number one was recovered by Schrader, a meteorite hunter, less than 45 > hours after the fall. That's a first, at least here in the United States. > Only European meteorite hunter Thomas Grau, I think, has triangulated and > personally recovered the first stone from a fall before Schrader? Not > nearly as quickly as Schrader found his piece, but almost improbable to > believe this could happen twice in the same year and never before! Everyone > out in the southwest hunted for the meteorite, but presumably no one else > found a piece. > > Memory tells me that Schrader was very concerned with doing good field > science around this fall - with documenting the event and mapping the strewn > field? Only a few hunters were brought into his recovery project. > Unusually enough, virtually nothing has been said publicly about this "new > Arizona fall." Not until today, anyway. > > This is the first step towards formally introducing the meteorite to the > public. Arizona's second-ever witnessed fall. It has been a real honor to > have documented the event and recovery for Schrader. Now, whether you > realize it or not, the meteorite's name is staring right at you. Shouldn't > take long.so, who's going to be the first to figure it out? > > Dave Gheesling > IMCA #5967 > www.fallingrocks.com > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From eric at meteoritesusa.com Wed Nov 4 20:33:32 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 17:33:32 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? In-Reply-To: <7ADB909994524B469E9C1A20D3E86D47@meteorroom> References: <55E2EBAAA3004140993C26A39D591BBE@meteorroom> <195600.38815.qm@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7ADB909994524B469E9C1A20D3E86D47@meteorroom> Message-ID: <4AF22B6C.3070506@meteoritesusa.com> Benson... Regards, Eric Dave Gheesling wrote: > Nay...at least not to my knowledge, Frank. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frank Cressy [mailto:fcressy at prodigy.net] > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:14 PM > To: dave at fallingrocks.com; meteorite list > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? > > Hi Dave, > > Is there a Cryptic, Arizona??? > > Frank > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dave Gheesling > To: meteorite list > Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 4:52:14 PM > Subject: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? > > < you>> > <> > > -----Original Message----- > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Dave > Gheesling > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:55 PM > To: 'meteorite list' > Subject: [meteorite-list] Cryptic AZ fall? > > What is the official name of the meteorite that fell in southern Arizona > this summer? Heard it was "Benson" from someone. Everybody was looking for > that one, but it's been quiet since Jack Schrader posted his announcement. > This is probably because of all the other distractions. > > Stone number one was recovered by Schrader, a meteorite hunter, less than 45 > hours after the fall. That's a first, at least here in the United States. > Only European meteorite hunter Thomas Grau, I think, has triangulated and > personally recovered the first stone from a fall before Schrader? Not > nearly as quickly as Schrader found his piece, but almost improbable to > believe this could happen twice in the same year and never before! Everyone > out in the southwest hunted for the meteorite, but presumably no one else > found a piece. > > Memory tells me that Schrader was very concerned with doing good field > science around this fall - with documenting the event and mapping the strewn > field? Only a few hunters were brought into his recovery project. > Unusually enough, virtually nothing has been said publicly about this "new > Arizona fall." Not until today, anyway. > > This is the first step towards formally introducing the meteorite to the > public. Arizona's second-ever witnessed fall. It has been a real honor to > have documented the event and recovery for Schrader. Now, whether you > realize it or not, the meteorite's name is staring right at you. Shouldn't > take long.so, who's going to be the first to figure it out? > > Dave Gheesling > IMCA #5967 > www.fallingrocks.com > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Wed Nov 4 20:43:48 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:43:48 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Cryptic AZ fall? In-Reply-To: <1C1C280C627C450386A59C71B45BEFDD@meteorroom> References: <1C1C280C627C450386A59C71B45BEFDD@meteorroom> Message-ID: Dave: I inquired about the AZ fall some months back and received little information. I wonder if stones are still being found? Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > From: dave at fallingrocks.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:55:25 -0500 > Subject: [meteorite-list] Cryptic AZ fall? > > What is the official name of the meteorite that fell in southern Arizona > this summer? Heard it was "Benson" from someone. Everybody was looking for > that one, but it's been quiet since Jack Schrader posted his announcement. > This is probably because of all the other distractions. > > Stone number one was recovered by Schrader, a meteorite hunter, less than 45 > hours after the fall. That's a first, at least here in the United States. > Only European meteorite hunter Thomas Grau, I think, has triangulated and > personally recovered the first stone from a fall before Schrader? Not > nearly as quickly as Schrader found his piece, but almost improbable to > believe this could happen twice in the same year and never before! Everyone > out in the southwest hunted for the meteorite, but presumably no one else > found a piece. > > Memory tells me that Schrader was very concerned with doing good field > science around this fall - with documenting the event and mapping the strewn > field? Only a few hunters were brought into his recovery project. > Unusually enough, virtually nothing has been said publicly about this "new > Arizona fall." Not until today, anyway. > > This is the first step towards formally introducing the meteorite to the > public. Arizona's second-ever witnessed fall. It has been a real honor to > have documented the event and recovery for Schrader. Now, whether you > realize it or not, the meteorite's name is staring right at you. Shouldn't > take long.so, who's going to be the first to figure it out? > > Dave Gheesling > IMCA #5967 > www.fallingrocks.com > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From dave at fallingrocks.com Wed Nov 4 20:45:00 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:45:00 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? In-Reply-To: References: <55E2EBAAA3004140993C26A39D591BBE@meteorroom> Message-ID: <8DAE4E472A5B4751B4F30543E3C453C5@meteorroom> BINGO, Marc! Whetstone Mountains. Good work! For those interested, see the start of the sentences in the original post... Will leave the following out for a few minutes before posting the reason for the cryptic post in the first place. You'll beat me there if you crack this one. Hint this time: count the characters. WAOCHONWLCOWNOWLKMHEGDISSEARONDLTZATGOASMPFRTSTOH All the best, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Fries, Marc D (3225) Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:03 PM To: meteorite list Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? Hm. Whetstone Mts., perhaps? Cheers, MDF On 11/4/09 5:52 PM, "Dave Gheesling" wrote: > < at > you>> > <> > > -----Original Message----- > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Dave > Gheesling > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:55 PM > To: 'meteorite list' > Subject: [meteorite-list] Cryptic AZ fall? > > What is the official name of the meteorite that fell in southern > Arizona this summer? Heard it was "Benson" from someone. Everybody > was looking for that one, but it's been quiet since Jack Schrader posted his announcement. > This is probably because of all the other distractions. > > Stone number one was recovered by Schrader, a meteorite hunter, less > than 45 hours after the fall. That's a first, at least here in the United States. > Only European meteorite hunter Thomas Grau, I think, has triangulated > and personally recovered the first stone from a fall before Schrader? > Not nearly as quickly as Schrader found his piece, but almost > improbable to believe this could happen twice in the same year and > never before! Everyone out in the southwest hunted for the meteorite, > but presumably no one else found a piece. > > Memory tells me that Schrader was very concerned with doing good field > science around this fall - with documenting the event and mapping the > strewn field? Only a few hunters were brought into his recovery project. > Unusually enough, virtually nothing has been said publicly about this > "new Arizona fall." Not until today, anyway. > > This is the first step towards formally introducing the meteorite to > the public. Arizona's second-ever witnessed fall. It has been a real > honor to have documented the event and recovery for Schrader. Now, > whether you realize it or not, the meteorite's name is staring right > at you. Shouldn't take long.so, who's going to be the first to figure it out? > > Dave Gheesling > IMCA #5967 > www.fallingrocks.com > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From rocksfromspace at yahoo.com Wed Nov 4 20:54:33 2009 From: rocksfromspace at yahoo.com (Michael Johnson) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:54:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 5, 2009 Message-ID: <151896.56706.qm@web113005.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_5_2009.html From mikewren at gilanet.com Wed Nov 4 20:50:20 2009 From: mikewren at gilanet.com (michael cottingham) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:50:20 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: Speaking of Ash Creek/West ....started at 0.99 cents... Message-ID: <18453764-E177-452B-B175-CB63A4EF3125@gilanet.com> Hello, (Ash Creek) The WEST, Texas Fall, L6, 28g http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220504058489 All auctions underway.... http://shop.ebay.com:80/meteorite-collector/m.html?LH_Auction=1&_trksid=p3911.c0.m301 Thanks and Best Wishes Michael Cottingham From drtanuki at yahoo.com Wed Nov 4 21:07:09 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:07:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Daule Ecuador Fall Recovered Message-ID: <283109.4624.qm@web53111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2009/11/ecuador-meteormeteorite-news-daule.html Congrats Mike and Hans!!!! From drtanuki at yahoo.com Wed Nov 4 21:09:38 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:09:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Daule Meteorite Fall Recovered one year after fall Message-ID: <868377.71532.qm@web53104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2009/11/ecuador-meteormeteorite-news-daule.html Congrats to Mike Farmer and Hans Koser!!!!! From mlblood at cox.net Wed Nov 4 21:50:28 2009 From: mlblood at cox.net (Michael Blood) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:50:28 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] looking for Talampaya, Bereba and Stannern In-Reply-To: <868377.71532.qm@web53104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi fellow list members, I am still looking for specimens Of Talampaya, Bereba and Stannern. Preferred Sizes between 5 and 15 grams, with 10g being Ideal, but, at this point, any specimen of any of These three would be of interest. Cash or trade - Your choice. RSVP off list please. Thanks, Michael From astroroks at hotmail.com Wed Nov 4 22:08:26 2009 From: astroroks at hotmail.com (Dennis Miller) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 21:08:26 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: Speaking of Ash Creek/West ....started at 0.99 cents... In-Reply-To: <18453764-E177-452B-B175-CB63A4EF3125@gilanet.com> References: <18453764-E177-452B-B175-CB63A4EF3125@gilanet.com> Message-ID: This is a nice looking piece and I know that it will be the only one sold out of the 5 listed, at this time. The others are $100/gm. Thanks Michael for giving us a good chance at a great meteorite. Dennis > From: mikewren at gilanet.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:50:20 -0700 > Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: Speaking of Ash Creek/West ....started at 0.99 cents... > > Hello, > > > (Ash Creek) The WEST, Texas Fall, L6, 28g > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220504058489 > > All auctions underway.... > > http://shop.ebay.com:80/meteorite-collector/m.html?LH_Auction=1&_trksid=p3911.c0.m301 > > > Thanks and Best Wishes > > Michael Cottingham > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9690331&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009 From pshugar at clearwire.net Wed Nov 4 22:11:52 2009 From: pshugar at clearwire.net (Pete Shugar) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 21:11:52 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] RE L(Iron) Chondrite Meteorite fresh fall 4.64g Message-ID: <6D84CF2D685A4301ACEBFD74FEA517F3@laptop> Is this legit??????????????????????? L Chondrite NWT (North West Texas) 869 Meteorite! 4.64 grams & 18mm Long x 5mm Wide Fresh fall from Keller, Texas Oct. 24, 2009 Dark black/brown melted surface with a few chips rusting also right side is melted flat on one end. Sticks freely to strong magnet on top of a wood star display case! Pete IMCA 1733 From meteoritekid at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 22:24:24 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 19:24:24 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] RE L(Iron) Chondrite Meteorite fresh fall 4.64g In-Reply-To: <6D84CF2D685A4301ACEBFD74FEA517F3@laptop> References: <6D84CF2D685A4301ACEBFD74FEA517F3@laptop> Message-ID: <93aaac890911041924s42495dfbie304fa65866fb24c@mail.gmail.com> Yo, I found the link - trouble is that it looks like a piece of metal to me - check out the folded-over edge. I suppose it could be a 4g iron meteorite, but what are the odds...heaven knows there are more 4g pieces of man-made scrap out there than there are meteorites. And that edge shows pretty visible folding-over, making me think it was hit repeatedly by something or broke off of a larger mass of iron fairly recently. http://cgi.ebay.com/L-Iron-Chondrite-Meteorite-fresh-fall-4-64g_W0QQitemZ120488782700QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0db0eb6c#ht_696wt_1039 And the description...the person clearly doesn't know what they're talking about. What they've written reminds me of the label they stuck on the meteorite in the new Superman movie. Regards, Jason On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Pete Shugar wrote: > Is this legit??????????????????????? > L Chondrite NWT (North West Texas) 869 Meteorite! > 4.64 grams & 18mm Long x 5mm Wide > Fresh fall from Keller, Texas Oct. 24, 2009 > Dark black/brown melted surface with a few chips rusting also right side is > melted flat on one end. ? Sticks freely to strong magnet on top of a wood > star display case! > Pete IMCA 1733 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From fcressy at prodigy.net Wed Nov 4 22:38:02 2009 From: fcressy at prodigy.net (Frank Cressy) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 19:38:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? In-Reply-To: <8DAE4E472A5B4751B4F30543E3C453C5@meteorroom> References: <55E2EBAAA3004140993C26A39D591BBE@meteorroom> <8DAE4E472A5B4751B4F30543E3C453C5@meteorroom> Message-ID: <145974.23808.qm@web80208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Dave and all, Great work!? For those interested...and you should be. Put the clue letters?in groups of seven from top to bottom, read result from left to right. WWWDOTF ALLINGR OCKSDOT COMSLAS HWHETST ONEAZMO NOGRAPH ?and get this: WWWDOTFALLINGROCKSDOTCOMSLASHWHETSTONEAZMONOGRAPH or www.fallingrocks.com/whetstoneazmonograph Cheers, Frank ----- Original Message ---- From: Dave Gheesling To: "Fries, Marc D (3225)" ; meteorite list Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 5:45:00 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? BINGO, Marc!? Whetstone Mountains.? Good work!? For those interested, see the start of the sentences in the original post... Will leave the following out for a few minutes before posting the reason for the cryptic post in the first place.? You'll beat me there if you crack this one.? Hint this time: count the characters. WAOCHONWLCOWNOWLKMHEGDISSEARONDLTZATGOASMPFRTSTOH All the best, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Fries, Marc D (3225) Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:03 PM To: meteorite list Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? Hm.? Whetstone Mts., perhaps? Cheers, MDF On 11/4/09 5:52 PM, "Dave Gheesling" wrote: > < at > you>> > <> > > -----Original Message----- > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Dave > Gheesling > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:55 PM > To: 'meteorite list' > Subject: [meteorite-list] Cryptic AZ fall? > > What is the official name of the meteorite that fell in southern > Arizona this summer?? Heard it was "Benson" from someone.? Everybody > was looking for that one, but it's been quiet since Jack Schrader posted his announcement. > This is probably because of all the other distractions. > > Stone number one was recovered by Schrader, a meteorite hunter, less > than 45 hours after the fall.? That's a first, at least here in the United States. > Only European meteorite hunter Thomas Grau, I think, has triangulated > and personally recovered the first stone from a fall before Schrader?? > Not nearly as quickly as Schrader found his piece, but almost > improbable to believe this could happen twice in the same year and > never before!? Everyone out in the southwest hunted for the meteorite, > but presumably no one else found a piece. > > Memory tells me that Schrader was very concerned with doing good field > science around this fall - with documenting the event and mapping the > strewn field?? Only a few hunters were brought into his recovery project. > Unusually enough, virtually nothing has been said publicly about this > "new Arizona fall."? Not until today, anyway. > > This is the first step towards formally introducing the meteorite to > the public.? Arizona's second-ever witnessed fall.? It has been a real > honor to have documented the event and recovery for Schrader.? Now, > whether you realize it or not, the meteorite's name is staring right > at you.? Shouldn't take long.so, who's going to be the first to figure it out? > > Dave Gheesling > IMCA #5967 > www.fallingrocks.com > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From stm at bellsouth.net Wed Nov 4 23:09:29 2009 From: stm at bellsouth.net (Sean T. Murray) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 23:09:29 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? In-Reply-To: <145974.23808.qm@web80208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <55E2EBAAA3004140993C26A39D591BBE@meteorroom><8DAE4E472A5B4751B4F30543E3C453C5@meteorroom> <145974.23808.qm@web80208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1E33F1BC01F94A1A97CCEE55CB4F980D@Platinum2> Nicely done Frank :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Cressy" To: ; "Fries, Marc D (3225)" ; "meteorite list" Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? Hi Dave and all, Great work! For those interested...and you should be. Put the clue letters in groups of seven from top to bottom, read result from left to right. WWWDOTF ALLINGR OCKSDOT COMSLAS HWHETST ONEAZMO NOGRAPH and get this: WWWDOTFALLINGROCKSDOTCOMSLASHWHETSTONEAZMONOGRAPH or www.fallingrocks.com/whetstoneazmonograph Cheers, Frank ----- Original Message ---- From: Dave Gheesling To: "Fries, Marc D (3225)" ; meteorite list Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 5:45:00 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? BINGO, Marc! Whetstone Mountains. Good work! For those interested, see the start of the sentences in the original post... Will leave the following out for a few minutes before posting the reason for the cryptic post in the first place. You'll beat me there if you crack this one. Hint this time: count the characters. WAOCHONWLCOWNOWLKMHEGDISSEARONDLTZATGOASMPFRTSTOH All the best, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Fries, Marc D (3225) Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:03 PM To: meteorite list Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] FW: Cryptic AZ fall? Hm. Whetstone Mts., perhaps? Cheers, MDF On 11/4/09 5:52 PM, "Dave Gheesling" wrote: > < at > you>> > <> > > -----Original Message----- > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Dave > Gheesling > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:55 PM > To: 'meteorite list' > Subject: [meteorite-list] Cryptic AZ fall? > > What is the official name of the meteorite that fell in southern > Arizona this summer? Heard it was "Benson" from someone. Everybody > was looking for that one, but it's been quiet since Jack Schrader posted his announcement. > This is probably because of all the other distractions. > > Stone number one was recovered by Schrader, a meteorite hunter, less > than 45 hours after the fall. That's a first, at least here in the United States. > Only European meteorite hunter Thomas Grau, I think, has triangulated > and personally recovered the first stone from a fall before Schrader? > Not nearly as quickly as Schrader found his piece, but almost > improbable to believe this could happen twice in the same year and > never before! Everyone out in the southwest hunted for the meteorite, > but presumably no one else found a piece. > > Memory tells me that Schrader was very concerned with doing good field > science around this fall - with documenting the event and mapping the > strewn field? Only a few hunters were brought into his recovery project. > Unusually enough, virtually nothing has been said publicly about this > "new Arizona fall." Not until today, anyway. > > This is the first step towards formally introducing the meteorite to > the public. Arizona's second-ever witnessed fall. It has been a real > honor to have documented the event and recovery for Schrader. Now, > whether you realize it or not, the meteorite's name is staring right > at you. Shouldn't take long.so, who's going to be the first to figure it out? > > Dave Gheesling > IMCA #5967 > www.fallingrocks.com > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From mlblood at cox.net Wed Nov 4 23:16:26 2009 From: mlblood at cox.net (Michael Blood) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 20:16:26 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Thanks to all In-Reply-To: <20091104195958.VO9UF.616685.imail@eastrmwml39> Message-ID: Thanks to those that let me know: You can scroll to the bottom of the "programmed Answers to "Frequently asked questions" page and still Email the seller directly. However, as far as I know, you cannot download the Photo of the item you are buying - which seams like a real Pain to me. Best wishes, Michael From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Wed Nov 4 23:18:20 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 23:18:20 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] "Ancient Atomic Bombs" (Libyan Desert Glass) Message-ID: <20091104231820.K4KTW.609608.imail@eastrmwml45> In "Ancient Atomic Bombs" at, http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2009-October/057786.html Michael Groetz asked: "Sand dunes in the Egyptian desert. What phenomenon could be capable of raising the temperature of desert sand to at least 3,300 degrees Fahrenheit, casting it into great sheets of solid yellow-green glass? The article in question is "Ancient Atomic Bombs" by Leonardo Vintini, Epoch Times, Oct. 31, 2009, http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/24575/ Contrary to the claims made in the article, an extraterrestrial impact of some sort is capable of explaining the Libyan Desert Glass as this material is commonly called. Many of the objections are made in this article are based upon a mixture of misinformation and falsehoods presented in this article; research either ignored or overlooked by in this article; and over lack of understanding of what is currently known about Libyan Desert Glass. First, the article dismisses the involvement of an extraterrestrial impact because of the "absence of accompanying craters in the desert." The absence of an impact crater in the vicinity of the Libyan Desert Glass is not problem because an aerial burst, which would have not left a crater, could have melted the ground's surface to create it. Various researchers have used computer models to demonstrate that this physically possible. they include: Boslough, M. B. E., and D.A. Crawford, 2008, Low- altitude airbursts and the impact threat. International Journal of Impact Engineering. vol. 35, no. 12, pp. 1441-1448. Svetsov V. V. and Wasson J. T. 2007. Melting of Soil Rich in Quartz by Radiation from Aerial Bursts - A Possible Cause of Formation of Libyan Desert Glass and Layered Tektites. Abstracts of the Lunar and Planetary Science Conference. 38th, Abstract no. 1499. Wasson J. T., 2003., Large Aerial Bursts: An Important Class of Terrestrial Accretionary Events. Astrobiology. vol. 3, no. 1, pp. 163-179. In addition, the Libyan Desert Glass (LDG) occurs as surface lag composed of loose cobbles, pebbles, and granules. Since the LDG is found in place, it allows for a number of explanations of how the material was created. These include the LDG is what remains of former melt pool of a crater that has since been eroded away, leaving a lag of fragmented glass, is what remains of a solid sheet of glass created by an aerial burst that has been completely fragmented by subsequent erosion; and is what remains of impactites created elsewhere outside its current distribution and subsequently eroded from its original source, and transported to where it is now found. There are a number of pros and cons to these and other ideas about how LDG formed, which are too lengthy to discuss in any detail in this post. The LDG is similar to Mong Nong-type tektites, which with other Australasian tektites are of impact origin and lack a known impact crater. ("impact origin" includes both the terrestrial impact origin and impact of lunar material hypotheses.) Thus, the LDG is not the only glassy impactite that lacks a known crater. Pertinent reference: Ramirez-Cardona, M., El-Barkooky, A. Hamdan, M. Flores- Castro, K., Jimenez-Martinez, N. I., and Mendoza- Espinosa, M., 2008, On the Libyan Desert Silica Glass (LDSG) transport model from a hypothetical impact structure. PIS-01 General contributions to impact structures, International Geological Congress Oslo 2008, Oslo, Norway. http://www.cprm.gov.br/33IGC/1350834.html The Epoch time article notes that: "Neither satellite imagery nor sonar has been able to find any holes." The problem here is that "sonar" is not used to find impact craters on land. In fact, it would be impossible to use sonar for any purpose in the Sahara Desert where LDG is found. This misinformation is an excellent indication of an extreme lack of understanding of basic science, bordering on illiteracy, on the part of this article. The stilted and very imprecise use of terminology in this article also a basic lack of scientific understanding on the part of this article. For some information on Sonar go read "Sonar" at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonar "...the glass rocks found in the Libyan Desert present a grade of transparency and purity (99 percent) that is not typical in the fusions of fallen meteorites, in which iron and other materials are mixed in with the cast silicon after the impact." 1. LDG varies greatly in transparency from being almost transparent to being either translucent or opaque. There is nothing about its transparency that preclude LDG from being an impactite. 2. The percentage of silica in LDG matches the percentage of silica found in sandstone bedrock that underlies the areas in which LDG has been found, the location of at least two impact structures near the area containing LDG; and larges areas of the desert surrounding both the impact structures and where LDG is found. 3. The LDG does contain extraterrestrial material derived from meteorites / an asteroid mixed in with it. This Epoch Times article is completely wrong about the absence of an extraterrestrial component being presence within LDG. A few of very many pertinent papers: Abate, B., Koeberl, C., Kruger, F. J., and Underwood, J. R., 1999, BP and Oasis impact structures, Libya, and their relation to Libyan Desert Glass. In Dressler, B. O., and Sharpton, V. L., eds., Gpp. 177-192. Geological Society of America Special Paper no. 339. Barrat J. A., Jahn B. M., Amosse J., Rocchia R., Keller, F., Poupeau G. R., and Diemer E., 1997, Geochemistry and origin of Libyan Desert glasses. Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta. vol. 61, no. 9, pp. 1953-1959. Fudali, R. F., 1981, The major element chemistry of Libyan desert glass and the mineralogy of its precursor. Meteoritics. vol 16, pp. 247-259. Kleinmann, B., 1969, The breakdown of zircon observed in the Libyan desert glass as evidence of its impact origin. Earth and Planetary Science Letters, vol. 5, pp. 497-501. Koeberl, C., 1996, Libyan Desert Glass: geochemical composition and origin. In: de Michele, V., ed., pp. 121-131, Special publication of the Sahara Journal - Silica '96. Proceedings of the Meeting on Libyan Desert Glass and Related Events, July 1996, Milano. Koeberl C., 2000, Confirmation of a meteoric component in Libyan Desert Glass from osmium isotopic data. Meteoritics & Planetary Science. vol. 35 (Supplement), pp. A89-A90. Koeberl C., Rampino M. R., Jalufka D. A. and Winiarski D. H., 2003, A 2003 Expedition into the Libyan Desert Glass Strewn Field, Great Sand Sea, Western Egypt. Proceedings of the meeting on Large Meteorite Impacts (2003), Lunar and Planetary Institute, USRA, Center of Advanced Studies, Abstract no. 4079. This epoch times article also stated: "However, this doesn't explain how two of the areas found in close proximity in the Libyan Desert show the same pattern the probability of two meteorite impacts so close is very low." Part of the problem here, is that the people who promote the Libyan desert glass (LDG) as evidence of ancient nuclear warfare ignore the fact that the LDG occurs as erosional lags produced by the erosion, transportation and redeposition of pieces of it over a period of millions of years. Contrary to poetic descriptions by various alternative archaeologists and early geologists, the " glass fields" are not primary deposits formed by the either the original airfall, base surge, or in place melting of local sand. Rather, the LDG occurs as secondary, even tertiary, concentrations, created over 26 million years, of the more resistant pieces of LDG. The original Neogene deposits, which either contained the LDG or on which formed or fell have been eroded and the LDG released from them, possibly transported some distance; and concentrated as an erosional lag on the ground surface. As a result, the current distribution of LDG likely is unrelated to its origin. The present distribution of LDG reflects what has happened to it over the last 26 million years instead of how it was created. Finally, the Epoch Times article states: "Nor does it explain the absence of water in the tektite specimens when these areas of impact were thought to be covered in it some 14,000 years ago.' 1. The intense heat of formation of LDG is perfectly capable of explaining its extremely low water content. 2. The LDG formed about 29 million years ago, not 14,000 year ago as this article incorrectly states above. Given the age of LDG, it is impossible for this material to have any connection with modern humans and manmade objects such as nuclear weapons. A few of many pertinent references: Horn P., M?ller-Sohnius D., Schaaf P., Kleinmann B. and Storzer D., 1997, Potassium-argon and fission-track dating of Libyan Desert Glass and strontium and neodymium constraints on its source rocks. In: de Michele, V., ed., pp. 59-73, Special publication of the Sahara Journal - Silica '96. Proceedings of the Meeting on Libyan Desert Glass and Related Events, July 1996, Milano. Matsubara, K., Matsuda, J.I., and Koeberl, C., 1991, Noble gases and K-Ar ages in Aouelloul, Zhamanshin, and Libyan Desert impact glasses. Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta vol. 55, pp. 2951-2955. This article fails to provide any convincing evidence that there is any connection between LDG and ancient nuclear warefare and that LDG is not an impactite. This Epoch Times article does provide a lot misinformation and simply ignores any research that contradicts its preconceived notions about how LDG might have formed. Yours, Paul H From dave at fallingrocks.com Wed Nov 4 23:42:09 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 23:42:09 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Introducing the Whetstone Mountains meteorite monograph - AD Message-ID: Hello All, Please pardon the obscure encoded posts re: "Cryptic AZ fall?" from earlier this evening, but judging from the ~300 off list emails I've dealt with tonight, it looks like a lot of listers quite enjoyed it. This message is coming separately because it is list protocol to disclose an AD, although this one is most definitely being placed in the pursuit of profit. I didn't disclose this earlier so as to not spoil the fun...apologies for the transgression. As many of you may recall, in early July, Jack Schrader posted to this list his primary concern around the "New Arizona Fall" of June 23rd's recovery campaign -- specifically that comprehensively documenting the field science was his priority. It would be an understatement to say that Jack has accomplished this objective, and the preliminary summation of his team's work is currently in publication to be released next month. The following link provides information about the forthcoming limited edition monograph: http://www.fallingrocks.com/whetstoneazmonograph/index.htm I won't duplicate the message here, since the above web page pretty much spells it out. Thanks in advance for checking it out, and I hope all of you who have ordered it already enjoy the read! All the best, Dave Gheesling IMCA #5967 www.fallingrocks.com From jose118 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 5 00:38:02 2009 From: jose118 at hotmail.com (Jose Villavicencio) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 00:38:02 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Daule Ecuador Fall Recovered Message-ID: Hello list members, Right now I had a mix of feelings. I'm happy to know that the meteorite on my homecountry, Ecuador, is been studied, but at the same time I'm so sad to know that I will not be able to get a piece of it, or to know that maybe some day I'll need to pay for something that fell in my country. According to what I read about this meteorite and what the videos said about it, is that Ecuadorian authorities made a preleminary study of the "rock" in about 10 minutes (!!!), then they try to compare it with a meteorite that fell on Morocco (how many meteorites fell on Morocco??!!!!) that has similar characteristics...HAHAHA...I hate the way how Rony (who calls himself astronaut, instead of cosmonaut), just because people in my country don't know about the topic, lie to people. Yes, it is a meteorite, but no one can said that a meteorite has similar characteristics with another in less than a few hours!!!...Between EXA and the astronomical observatory they were argueing about who must have this meteorite. But now I know, with great dissapointment, who has it and where it is. In this case, I'm agree with the laws that Argentina has about meteorites. I feel like all my effort to finish college (Aerospace Engineering) and try to share my knowledge with people in my homecountry has been destroyed with people and actions like this!!! Jose Villavicencio _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Friends get your Flickr, Yelp, and Digg updates when they e-mail you. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_3:092010 From m_graul at yahoo.de Thu Nov 5 04:07:36 2009 From: m_graul at yahoo.de (Mirko Graul) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:07:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [meteorite-list] more photos from Munich Mineral show Message-ID: <638773.33280.qm@web26306.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hello List, now also my photos from the Munich Mineral show from last weekend. http://www.meteorite-mirko.de/0334af9beb0bbe82e/0334af9cb8138ea01/index.php http://www.meteorite-mirko.de/0334af9beb0bbe82e/0334af9cb8139d907/index.php http://www.meteorite-mirko.de/0334af9beb0bbe82e/0334af9cb8139fd0c/index.php http://www.meteorite-mirko.de/0334af9beb0bbe82e/0334af9cb813a1911/index.php http://www.meteorite-mirko.de/0334af9beb0bbe82e/0334af9cb813a3916/index.php Greetings to all, Mirko Mirko Graul Meteorite Quittenring.4 16321 Bernau GERMANY Phone: 0049-1724105015 E-Mail: m_graul at yahoo.de WEB: www.meteorite-mirko.de Member of The Meteoritical Society (International Society for Meteoritics and Planetery Science) IMCA-Member: 2113 (International Meteorite Collectors Association) From info at meteorites.com.au Thu Nov 5 05:33:48 2009 From: info at meteorites.com.au (Jeff Kuyken) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:33:48 +1100 Subject: [meteorite-list] eBay "Questions" / photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just right click and select "Save Picture As". It's always worked on all auctions and I still haven't come across any where it doesn't work. On another note here's a handy tip for all of you using US eBay. I've noticed that you can't select only one type of feedback to view. (i.e. positive OR neutral OR negative.) You can on eBay Australia. On a sellers feedback page just pop a ".au" after eBay.com and hit enter. You will be able to click on the totals in the summary box and bring up your selection. Works a treat when buying from a new seller and picking up any repetitive bad habits. Cheers, Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 8:23 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] eBay "Questions" / photos >>>2: Up until recently one could download (a) photo(s) of what one was > Buying. Now, about 95% of the time one cannot. (It seams curiously > Inconsistent that in a very small minority of cases one still can....)<< > > to tell the truth, with a little persistance, I've been able to copy most > photos posted on ebay. What I often do is either Select All or just > highlight the photo. then Paste onto the body of a message. Then double > left click > on the photo itself. This brings up the photo in a box where several > things of me is asked. the one I click is "Save a Copy". A box comes up > where I > can give the file a name. I do that and click save. the photo is now in > my > "Pictures" file. Sometimes I need to spruce the photo up and I then find > it > in my Corel Photo Enhancing program. I do the necessary enhancing and its > all done. > GeoZay > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > From meteoriteshow at free.fr Thu Nov 5 05:55:57 2009 From: meteoriteshow at free.fr (meteoriteshow at free.fr) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:55:57 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - ebay auctions ending on Saturday Message-ID: <1257418557.4af2af3dd1f0f@imp.free.fr> Dear Fellow Listees, Our ebay auctions ending on Saturday can be seen at: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ50QQsassZmeteoriteshow For some reasons the quality of the pictures that I uploaded appears much poorer than the original ones on my hard drive and I worked on the resolution in order to upload again another version that you can now see on our announcement. Sorry about that! They include: 1- Al Haggounia 001 PRIM. AUB - 19.5g partslice Partslice #006 weighing 7.4g, dimensions 72x43x3.2mm. Cut in one of the freshest framents of Al Haggounia 001 Large & fragile partslice (fractured) displaying what is probably a ghost chondrule in the fair grey matrix and an interesting oxydized vein. STILL AT $1.00 STARTING PRICE!!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330371285169 2- DaG 557 - CM2 - 2.88g partslice PARTSLICE weighing 2.88g, dimensions 24x19x2.5mm Quite FRESH CM2 (W2), it displays nice BLACK FUSION CRUST on the edge. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330371285510 3- DaG 945 - EUCRITE - 8.55g partslice PARTSLICE #7 weighing 8.55g, dimensions 47x42x1.7mm FRESH meteorite (W1), it displays nice BLACK FUSION CRUST on the edge. Shipped in a display box. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330371285750 4- NWA 5618 - 1.5g Partslice - EUC-Pmict FRESH & GORGEOUS Partslice #16 weighing 1.5g, dimensions ~22x14x3mm. VERY FRESH, Partially fusion crusted, with huge pyroxene cristals (pigeonite). Shipped in a membran box (see pictures) STILL AT $1.00 STARTING PRICE!!! NO BID YET!!!!!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330371286901 5- OUED EL HADJAR - 2.7g frag - WITNESSED FALL! CRUSTED Fragment weighing 2.7g, dimensions ~16x15x10mm. ~10% FUSION CRUSTED, many tiny chondrules in fair grey matrix. STILL AT $1.00 STARTING PRICE!!! NO BID YET!!!!!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330371287101 6- SAHARAN OC #3026e - 825.5g MAIN MASS Three pieces weighing a total of 825.5g, including: - The main mass weighing 800g, - A slice weighing 12g - Partslices weighing 13.5g Displays relics of Fusion Crust on the outside and small chondrules on the cut section. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330371287491 Thank you very much for watching and best wishes to ALL BIDDERS!!! Kind regards, Frederic Beroud http://www.meteoriteshow.com IMCA member # 2491 (http://www.imca.cc/) From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Thu Nov 5 08:11:08 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 8:11:08 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] New Paper on Identifying Impact Structures in "Earth-Science Reviews" Message-ID: <20091105081108.06EEL.621240.imail@eastrmwml39> A new paper has been published online. It critically reviews the reliability of different criteria used to identify extraterrestrial impact structures. Frencha, B. M., and Koeberl, C., in press, The convincing identification of terrestrial meteorite impact structures: What works, what doesn't, and why. Earth-Science Reviews, Article in Press doi:10.1016/j.earscirev.2009.10.009 http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.earscirev.2009.10.009 Yours, Paul H. From dave at fallingrocks.com Thu Nov 5 10:23:26 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 10:23:26 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Whetstone Mountains monograph ORDER page issue Message-ID: <4A60759C43D9497BA00A9DDFEA11BFAA@meteorroom> A few of you have had problems submitting orders through the web interface at www.fallingrocks.com/whetstoneazmonograph It has just come to my attention that GoDaddy, for reasons unknown, is currently blocking email addresses from AOL, Yahoo! & gmail accounts. I have no idea why, but apologies for the inconvenience while we sort that one out. Also, FYI, monograph's 1 - 50 are now all taken, and over half of the 51 - 97 block are gone as well. Any forthcoming orders with a preference for number should include multiple options for number choice in the event of duplication. Thanks, and all best, Dave Gheesling IMCA #5967 www.fallingrocks.com From stm at bellsouth.net Thu Nov 5 11:51:09 2009 From: stm at bellsouth.net (Sean T. Murray) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 11:51:09 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Whetstone Mountains monograph ORDER page issue In-Reply-To: <4A60759C43D9497BA00A9DDFEA11BFAA@meteorroom> References: <4A60759C43D9497BA00A9DDFEA11BFAA@meteorroom> Message-ID: <3F4DBC1220774D4EA3B7C16C4F35F32B@Platinum2> Folks, I fixed the issue that gmail, aol, and yahoo email people were seeing with the monograph order form. Turns out that GoDaddy filters emails that are "From" those domains... even though the order form is on a GoDaddy server! Thanks GoDaddy! :-( I found a work-around. I also added a carbon copy so that from now on, you will get a copy of the order form in your email inbox. Sorry for the hassle, Sean. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Gheesling" To: "'meteorite list'" Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 10:23 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Whetstone Mountains monograph ORDER page issue >A few of you have had problems submitting orders through the web interface > at www.fallingrocks.com/whetstoneazmonograph It has just come to my > attention that GoDaddy, for reasons unknown, is currently blocking email > addresses from AOL, Yahoo! & gmail accounts. I have no idea why, but > apologies for the inconvenience while we sort that one out. > > Also, FYI, monograph's 1 - 50 are now all taken, and over half of the 51 - > 97 block are gone as well. Any forthcoming orders with a preference for > number should include multiple options for number choice in the event of > duplication. > > Thanks, and all best, > > Dave Gheesling > IMCA #5967 > www.fallingrocks.com > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From schraderj at rocketmail.com Thu Nov 5 12:34:27 2009 From: schraderj at rocketmail.com (Jack Schrader) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:34:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 4, 2009 Message-ID: <135812.7037.qm@web111007.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Wow!? Congratulations on this amazing cold find Todd!? What a gorgeous stone!? Jack ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Michael Johnson To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 9:21:18 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 4, 2009 http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_4_2009.html ? ? ? ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From dave at fallingrocks.com Thu Nov 5 12:50:56 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 12:50:56 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November4, 2009 In-Reply-To: <135812.7037.qm@web111007.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <135812.7037.qm@web111007.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8632E4AF0AA843E6AED6C280E6C72327@meteorroom> Ditto, Jack...one epic meteorite, Todd! -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Jack Schrader Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 12:34 PM To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November4, 2009 Wow!? Congratulations on this amazing cold find Todd!? What a gorgeous stone!? Jack ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Michael Johnson To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 9:21:18 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 4, 2009 http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_4_2009.html ? ? ? ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From garychase at live.com Thu Nov 5 13:53:00 2009 From: garychase at live.com (Gary Chase) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 10:53:00 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Daule Ecuador Fall Recovered In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can't understand your dismay over the recovery of this meteorite by Mike Farmer and Hans Koser. Didn't it fall over a year ago? Where were you and all of your countrymen for this long period of time? Waiting for someone to deliver it to you? Sounds like sour grapes to me. You also say that Farmer and Koser have runied your whole reason for going to college? I guess you are just destined to be a Walmart Greeter then. Dude I think you are getting a little to dramatic. I say Congradulations to Hans and Mike for recovering this meteorite when it obviously would not have been recovered with out their efforts. True meteorite hunters in my book, Gary > From: jose118 at hotmail.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 00:38:02 -0500 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Daule Ecuador Fall Recovered > > > Hello list members, > > Right now I had a mix of feelings. I'm happy to know that the meteorite on my homecountry, Ecuador, is been studied, but at the same time I'm so sad to know that I will not be able to get a piece of it, or to know that maybe some day I'll need to pay for something that fell in my country. According to what I read about this meteorite and what the videos said about it, is that Ecuadorian authorities made a preleminary study of the "rock" in about 10 minutes (!!!), then they try to compare it with a meteorite that fell on Morocco (how many meteorites fell on Morocco??!!!!) that has similar characteristics...HAHAHA...I hate the way how Rony (who calls himself astronaut, instead of cosmonaut), just because people in my country don't know about the topic, lie to people. Yes, it is a meteorite, but no one can said that a meteorite has similar characteristics with another in less than a few hours!!!...Between EXA and the astronomical observatory they were argueing about who must hav > e this meteorite. But now I know, with great dissapointment, who has it and where it is. In this case, I'm agree with the laws that Argentina has about meteorites. I feel like all my effort to finish college (Aerospace Engineering) and try to share my knowledge with people in my homecountry has been destroyed with people and actions like this!!! > > Jose Villavicencio > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live: Friends get your Flickr, Yelp, and Digg updates when they e-mail you. > http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_3:092010 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Thu Nov 5 14:33:40 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 11:33:40 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Unusual meteorite found by time-lapse camera observatory Message-ID: Interesting stuff. Greg S. http://www.nhm.ac.uk/about-us/news/2009/november/unusual-meteorite-found-by-time-lapse-camera-observatory47032.html An unusual meteorite with an interesting orbit has been tracked to the ground using a photographic observatory that records time-lapse images of fireballs traveling across the sky. The network of cameras is in the Nullabor Desert in Western Australia. It allows scientists to track a fireball path, formed by a meteorite as it travels through Earth's atmosphere, and then work out where the meteorite comes to rest. The fireball camera network project was set up by Dr Phil Bland from Imperial College London and scientific associate of the Natural History Museum, along with colleagues from Ondrejov Observatory in the Czech Republic, and the Western Australia Museum, in 2006. This is the first meteorite recovered using the network. Named Bunburra Rockhole The Bunburra Rockhole meteorite is made from an usual type of basaltic igneous rock The Bunburra Rockhole meteorite is made from an usual type of basaltic igneous rock ? Phil Bland, Imperial College The cameras recorded the fireball that ultimately produced the meteorite in 2007, and the fragments that fell to Earth were named Bunburra Rockhole after a local landscape feature near to where they landed. The meteorite was found within 100m of the predicted fall line. It was collected and samples were given to the Natural History Museum where mineral experts Dr Gretchen Benedix and Dr Kieren Howard helped examine and classify it. They produced data about the meteorite?s composition and the types of minerals within it. Fragments of asteroids Most meteorites found on Earth are believed to be fragments of asteroids - ancient rocks that formed during the creation of the solar system about 4.56 billion years ago. Using complex calculations, the team were able to work out the meteorite's path to Earth and its orbit, and from that, where in the solar system the meteorite most likely came from. Unusual meteorite The Bunburra meteorite is about the size of a cricket ball and is an unusual type of basaltic igneous rock. Most basaltic meteorites are thought to come from one asteroid. However, the composition of Bunburra Rockhole means that it comes from a different asteroid. This means that the process required to form this type of rock was happening in more than one place in the early solar system. ?It's vital to have a meteorite with information about where it comes from in the solar system,? says Dr Benedix. ?We've known for a long time that most meteorites are from the asteroid belt, but we don't know exactly where. This kind of information helps us fit one more piece in the puzzle of how the solar system formed and evolved. ?The fact that this meteorite is compositionally unusual increases it's value even more. It helps us to uncover more information about the conditions of the early solar system.? Strange orbit The team says that the meteorite had an unusual orbit. Using modeling techniques, it was determined that Bunburra Rockhole began as part of an asteroid in the innermost main asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. Its orbit gradually evolved into one very similar to Earth's. Other meteorites for which data exist have orbits that take them into the main asteroid belt. Dr Howard says, ?I consider myself lucky to handle rocks from space when usually I only know that they come from the curators? cupboard! ?The chance to study a meteorite with a known orbit and source, so soon after if falls to Earth, is really exciting.? Dr Bland concludes, 'It was amazing to find a meteorite that we could track back to its origin in the asteroid belt on our first expedition using our small trial network. 'We're cautiously optimistic that this find could be the first of many and if that happens, each find may give us more clues about how the solar system began.' _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9690331&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009 From jose118 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 5 15:41:12 2009 From: jose118 at hotmail.com (Jose Villavicencio) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:41:12 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Daule Ecuador Fall Recovered In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Well it looks like you can't understand spanish=2C or even you can't unders= tand the content of a video or the contect of Mike's page.=20 =20 It fell over a year ago=2C it is true. And the day after the picture was re= aleased one piece was recovered=2C and took by the government. The other on= e was took by a farmer (NO MIKE=2C a real rice farmer). So it is not that w= e were waiting for someone to recover it. There is a third piece that accor= ding to people fell on a river...If you are talking about recovering and go= ing to Ecuador to "recover meteorites"=2C where is it??... =20 All what Mike and Hans did was ask and purchase a meteorite=2C you can read= on Mike's page more details about that. And well I didn't say that the rui= ned my studies=2C I just said that they took out an inspiration for my stud= ies=2C which is totally different.=20 =20 HAHAHA!!!...It looks like you can teach me how to be a Walmart Greeter=2C b= ut no thanks I really have a great job on my field. Well in pay for that=2C= I can teach you how planes work and how a rocket can travel far far away f= rom you.=20 =20 You can say that I'm getting too dramatic=2C but now I understand why Argen= tina has created new meteorite fall's laws. When you heard that the only re= gistered meteorite of your country was taken out (I was thinking that Mike = took the two pieces=2C but now I know that he only has one of them)=2C you = can feel like part of your country's history has been taken out. Didn't you= feel the same kind of emotions when 9/11 ocurred???...And you can say me= =2C well it is completely different. And I will say to you=2C no it's not. = Just for the simple reason that part of what you and me called history has = been taken. =20 I'm happy for Mike and Hans too=2C I can say that they took a lucky shoot t= his time=2C and yes=2C CONGRATS!!!. And again please read the links and Mik= e's page before making any comment=2C you can clearly read that a recovery = was not made=2C or well not what I called recovery (make camp field studies= and explorations in order to find meteorites never before taken): "Stone #= 2 weighed 6=2C580 grams=2C and was 100% complete. It was seen to fall just = outside of a house in a rice paddy=2C where it punched at least half a mete= r into the wet mud=2C then bounced out of the hole ending up nearly 3 meter= s away. The finder hid the stone in his house=2C afraid that the police wou= ld confiscate the stone as that happened to a boy nearby who found the firs= t stone. The press and military came to the area=2C and scared the locals. = He kept this stone=2C un-cleaned=2C in his house for the next year and a ha= lf until Hans arrived to the house=2C led by the boy who found the first st= one." =20 Jose =20 _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you=92re up to on= Facebook. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/so= cial-network-basics.aspx?ocid=3DPID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_2:092= 009= From tricottetcoll at live.com Thu Nov 5 16:36:19 2009 From: tricottetcoll at live.com (The Tricottet Collection) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:36:19 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - Forest City, Ourique, Nadiabondi and more on ebay Message-ID: Dear list members, a few interesting meteorite specimens on ebay this week: Forest City (full slice), Ourique (crusted fragment), Nadiabondi (complete stone), Campos Sales (full slice), Gao (full slice with old unk. label) http://shop.ebay.com/5166arnaud/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p4340 Best, ArnaudM _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9690331&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009 From garychase at live.com Thu Nov 5 16:42:43 2009 From: garychase at live.com (Gary Chase) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 13:42:43 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Daule Ecuador Fall Recovered In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 So now you are comparing how you felt when you learned Mike and Hans took t= he meteorite out of Equador to the 9/11 terrorist attack. That really is b= eing dramatic=2C don't you think? =20 Pass laws like Argentina and Australia and you will get what you deserve=2C= no incentive to look for and recover meteorites. No Meteorite Hunters =3D= No metoerites recovered. Just look at the results from Australia after pa= ssing the law you desire. =20 Gary =20 =20 > From: jose118 at hotmail.com > To: garychase at live.com=3B meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: RE: Daule Ecuador Fall Recovered > Date: Thu=2C 5 Nov 2009 15:41:12 -0500 >=20 >=20 > > Content-Type: text/plain=3B charset=3D"Windows-1252" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > MIME-Version: 1.0 >=20 >=20 > Well it looks like you can't understand spanish=3D2C or even you can't un= ders=3D > tand the content of a video or the contect of Mike's page.=3D20 > =3D20 > It fell over a year ago=3D2C it is true. And the day after the picture wa= s re=3D > aleased one piece was recovered=3D2C and took by the government. The othe= r on=3D > e was took by a farmer (NO MIKE=3D2C a real rice farmer). So it is not th= at w=3D > e were waiting for someone to recover it. There is a third piece that acc= or=3D > ding to people fell on a river...If you are talking about recovering and = go=3D > ing to Ecuador to "recover meteorites"=3D2C where is it??... > =3D20 > All what Mike and Hans did was ask and purchase a meteorite=3D2C you can = read=3D > on Mike's page more details about that. And well I didn't say that the ru= i=3D > ned my studies=3D2C I just said that they took out an inspiration for my = stud=3D > ies=3D2C which is totally different.=3D20 > =3D20 > HAHAHA!!!...It looks like you can teach me how to be a Walmart Greeter=3D= 2C b=3D > ut no thanks I really have a great job on my field. Well in pay for that= =3D2C=3D > I can teach you how planes work and how a rocket can travel far far away = f=3D > rom you.=3D20 > =3D20 > You can say that I'm getting too dramatic=3D2C but now I understand why A= rgen=3D > tina has created new meteorite fall's laws. When you heard that the only = re=3D > gistered meteorite of your country was taken out (I was thinking that Mik= e =3D > took the two pieces=3D2C but now I know that he only has one of them)=3D2= C you =3D > can feel like part of your country's history has been taken out. Didn't y= ou=3D > feel the same kind of emotions when 9/11 ocurred???...And you can say me= =3D > =3D2C well it is completely different. And I will say to you=3D2C no it's= not. =3D > Just for the simple reason that part of what you and me called history ha= s =3D > been taken. > =3D20 > I'm happy for Mike and Hans too=3D2C I can say that they took a lucky sho= ot t=3D > his time=3D2C and yes=3D2C CONGRATS!!!. And again please read the links a= nd Mik=3D > e's page before making any comment=3D2C you can clearly read that a recov= ery =3D > was not made=3D2C or well not what I called recovery (make camp field stu= dies=3D > and explorations in order to find meteorites never before taken): "Stone = #=3D > 2 weighed 6=3D2C580 grams=3D2C and was 100% complete. It was seen to fall= just =3D > outside of a house in a rice paddy=3D2C where it punched at least half a = mete=3D > r into the wet mud=3D2C then bounced out of the hole ending up nearly 3 m= eter=3D > s away. The finder hid the stone in his house=3D2C afraid that the police= wou=3D > ld confiscate the stone as that happened to a boy nearby who found the fi= rs=3D > t stone. The press and military came to the area=3D2C and scared the loca= ls. =3D > He kept this stone=3D2C un-cleaned=3D2C in his house for the next year an= d a ha=3D > lf until Hans arrived to the house=3D2C led by the boy who found the firs= t st=3D > one." > =3D20 > Jose =3D20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you=3D92re up t= o on=3D > Facebook. > http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/= so=3D > cial-network-basics.aspx?ocid=3D3DPID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_2= :092=3D > 009=3D =20 _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/= From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Thu Nov 5 18:19:31 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:19:31 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Pricing Guide Message-ID: List: I found this link a few years ago that listed the (price range) of virtually all varieties of meteorites.? It seems to have disappeared. http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6717/priceguide.htm It did say "The Meteorite Express, Meteorite Pricing Guide" and was dated July 2006. It was in Table form and the headings were 'CLASSIFICATION'?? '$/gram LOW-HIGH'?? 'AVAILABILITY'. Does anyone know who created it, if it still exists and/or if it is updated?? Or, does anyone know of something similar? This is really helpful to me determining what to buy and what I would like to have in my collection. Much Thanks, Greg S. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ From garychase at live.com Thu Nov 5 18:23:10 2009 From: garychase at live.com (Gary Chase) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:23:10 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Pricing Guide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Unfortunately Geocities ceased to host free websites recently. That is probably why it disappeared. Gary ---------------------------------------- > From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:19:31 -0800 > Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Pricing Guide > > > > List: > > I found this link a few years ago that listed the (price range) of virtually all varieties of meteorites. It seems to have disappeared. > > > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6717/priceguide.htm > > It did say "The Meteorite Express, Meteorite Pricing Guide" and was dated July 2006. It was in Table form and the headings were 'CLASSIFICATION' '$/gram LOW-HIGH' 'AVAILABILITY'. > > Does anyone know who created it, if it still exists and/or if it is updated? Or, does anyone know of something similar? > > This is really helpful to me determining what to buy and what I would like to have in my collection. > > Much Thanks, > > Greg S. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From damoclid at yahoo.com Thu Nov 5 18:27:44 2009 From: damoclid at yahoo.com (Richard Kowalski) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:27:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Pricing Guide In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <395303.99133.qm@web33905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A quick Google turns up this link http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2007-May/034827.html The Meteorite Collectors Price Guide, by David Weir -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA #1081 --- On Thu, 11/5/09, Greg Stanley wrote: > From: Greg Stanley > Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Pricing Guide > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 4:19 PM > > > List: > > I found this link a few years ago that listed the (price > range) of virtually all varieties of meteorites.? It seems > to have disappeared. > > > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6717/priceguide.htm > > It did say "The Meteorite Express, Meteorite Pricing Guide" > and was dated July 2006. It was in Table form and the > headings were 'CLASSIFICATION'?? '$/gram LOW-HIGH'?? > 'AVAILABILITY'. > > Does anyone know who created it, if it still exists and/or > if it is updated?? Or, does anyone know of something > similar? > > This is really helpful to me determining what to buy and > what I would like to have in my collection. > > Much Thanks, > > Greg S. > ??? > ???????? > ?????? ??? > ? > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM > protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From mrmeteorite at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 19:41:17 2009 From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com (Ruben Garcia) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:41:17 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Needed Jim Kriegh............................... Footage Message-ID: <80659e1a0911051641gcbf72e4r445171b5b82130bc@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I've been contacted this evening by a production company that needs Jim Kriegh video footage as well as aerial pictures or video of Gold Basin. The footage is needed for an international TV show. If anyone has some stashed away please let me know. -- Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u From mrmeteorite at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 19:44:54 2009 From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com (Ruben Garcia) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:44:54 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Needed, Jim Kriegh.............................Footage Message-ID: <80659e1a0911051644h2d51f0b9i4cac9bea7ef1030d@mail.gmail.com> ?Hi all - I hope this doesn't post twice - , I've been contacted this evening by a production company that needs Jim Kriegh meteorite hunting video/footage as well as aerial pictures or video of Gold Basin. The footage is needed for an international TV show. If anyone has some stashed away please let me know. -- Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u -- Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u From STARSANDSCOPES at aol.com Thu Nov 5 20:27:46 2009 From: STARSANDSCOPES at aol.com (STARSANDSCOPES at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 20:27:46 EST Subject: [meteorite-list] Flow lines? on an unknown stone Message-ID: Hi List, I was thinking some of you may of seen features like this and could save me some investigation time. I would like to email some pics of a stone with what looks like flow lines and orientation. It has light magnetic attraction and no chondrules. There are olivine chunks in the broken face. It looks like volcanic rock (Basalt) but I have never seen these surface features on Earth rocks. The result of my last "sure thing" are posted to my Gallery (Terrestrial Basalt). I sent a sample to Tony Irving and I do not want to wear out my welcome by sending him a boat load of Earth rocks to look at so I will wait and see what you think before I decide to ask Tony to take a look. Please email me if you are willing to take a look and share your observations. Tom Phillips From STARSANDSCOPES at aol.com Thu Nov 5 21:13:49 2009 From: STARSANDSCOPES at aol.com (STARSANDSCOPES at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:13:49 EST Subject: [meteorite-list] Flow lines? on an unknown stone Message-ID: Jason took a look and said it looks like long term static weathering. I will put it in my cool looking meteorwrong pile. Thanks every one for looking and thanks Jason! Tom In a message dated 11/5/2009 6:28:10 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, STARSANDSCOPES at aol.com writes: Hi List, I was thinking some of you may of seen features like this and could save me some investigation time. I would like to email some pics of a stone with what looks like flow lines and orientation. It has light magnetic attraction and no chondrules. There are olivine chunks in the broken face. It looks like volcanic rock (Basalt) but I have never seen these surface features on Earth rocks. The result of my last "sure thing" are posted to my Gallery (Terrestrial Basalt). I sent a sample to Tony Irving and I do not want to wear out my welcome by sending him a boat load of Earth rocks to look at so I will wait and see what you think before I decide to ask Tony to take a look. Please email me if you are willing to take a look and share your observations. Tom Phillips ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From dave at fallingrocks.com Thu Nov 5 21:17:11 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:17:11 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Whetstone Mountains meteorite monograph last call... Message-ID: Hi All, To avoid this ongoing back and forth re: the availability of numbers, I'm posting what's left here. Almost gone... 86, 90-95 www.fallingrocks.com/whetstoneazmonograph All the best, Dave Gheesling IMCA #5967 www.fallingrocks.com From dave at fallingrocks.com Thu Nov 5 22:27:05 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 22:27:05 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] WM monograph limited edition SOLD OUT Message-ID: <9A56EC4D732C4C91890AC7622A7D4056@meteorroom> OK, they're all gone now. If you've ordered a copy and haven't hear back from me yet, you will by this weekend once all of the random number orders are assigned, etc. Take care until then... All the best, Dave Gheesling IMCA #5967 www.fallingrocks.com From drtanuki at yahoo.com Fri Nov 6 06:45:57 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 03:45:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Large fireball over Tokyo at 8:25pm 6NOV09 Message-ID: <247896.42505.qm@web53106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear List, I just witnessed a large fireball over the Tokyo area from my balcony. The fireball changed from blue, red to green. No sound was heard. The fireball terminated at approximately 10-15 degrees above the horizon. Traveling direction was from E-SE at approximately 140-150 degrees from North. I was viewing this event from a 10th floor apartment balcony and have a ground refernece tower for extinction reference. This is the second largest fireball that I have seen in my life and perhaps Japan will have a new meteorite! Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo To all Japanese researchers please pass this information to other researchers that may have captured this event on video. Thank you. From mdavidhardy at yahoo.com Fri Nov 6 07:32:36 2009 From: mdavidhardy at yahoo.com (David Hardy) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 04:32:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] 7 most massive single meteorites Message-ID: <495722.99486.qm@web110113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Check this out. http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/most-massive-single-meteorites-earth/17225 From riffraff at timewarp.de Fri Nov 6 07:47:06 2009 From: riffraff at timewarp.de (Norbert Classen) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 13:47:06 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] 7 most massive single meteorites In-Reply-To: <495722.99486.qm@web110113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <495722.99486.qm@web110113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <537E094CCA5344369E0861B25B4B4988@lunatic> Hi David, and All, You wrote: "Check this out. http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/most-massive-single-meteorites -earth/17225" ----------------------------- Their ranking is not really accurate as they forgot the Armanty iron, and have some weights listed incorrectly. Anyway, nice pictures. If you want to see an up-to-date list of the largest meteorites, check out this month's IMCA Insights: http://imca.cc/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=59 All the best, Norbert Classen President IMCA Inc. www.imca.cc From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Fri Nov 6 08:51:27 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 8:51:27 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] More K-T / K-Pg Boundary Papers Message-ID: <20091106085127.3TMBS.862969.imail@eastrmwml34> Dear Listmembers, Below is another PDF file containing information about the K-T / K-Pg Boundary event. 1. Rapid Environmental/Climate Changes And Catastrophic Events in Late Cretaceous and Early Paleocene: RECCCE Workshop, IGCP 555 European Group Meeting Abstracts and Excursion Guide April 25th ? 28th, 2009 Gams, Austria Workshop and Joint Seminar coorganized by Austrian Science Fund FWF, Russian Foundation for Basic Research RFBR, Austrian Academy of Sciences (Austrian Committee for IGCP), University of Vienna (Center for Earth Sciences), Geological Survey of Austria, Nature Park Eisenwurzen, and Styrian Nature Park Academy http://www.geologie.ac.at/filestore/download/BR0078_001_A.pdf The link to this publication is found on the "Cretaceous" publications at http://jurassic.ru/cretaceous.eng.htm as Rapid Environental/Climate Changes and Catastrophic Events in Late Cretaceous and Early Paleogene. RECCCE Workshop. IGCP 555 European Group Meeting Abstracts and Excursion Guide April 25th ? 28th, 2009 Gams, Austria // Berichte Geol. B.-A. 2009. Bd.78. 74 pp. 2. Another paper is: Prauss, M. L., 2009, The K/Pg boundary at Brazos-River, Texas, USA ? An approach by marine palynology. Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology. vol. 238, no. 3-4, pp. 195-215. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.palaeo.2009.09.024 3. Finally free PDF files of a number of more papers about the K-T / K-Pg Boundary can be found in "Christian KOEBERL, Univ. Professor Dr. List of Publications" at: http://www.univie.ac.at/geochemistry/koeberl/publikation_list/ This web page has all many other PDF files of papers about other impact craters, impactites, meteorites, and related topics. Yours, Paul H. From stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 6 09:08:37 2009 From: stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com (steve arnold) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 06:08:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] buzz coulee availability Message-ID: <990723.28703.qm@web57805.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Good morning list.TGIF!!! Hey I was wondering if there are any USA collecters that have received more than 1 piece of buzz coulee,with those export papers,which I disdain,have any forsale?6 months to a year to wait for those things have made it just not worth collecting that fall.From the pieces I've seen it is a great stoney fall to have.But there is always LEGAL BS to have to wade thru.Please off list if you have any if not,hey I tried.Have a great day and weekend all. ?Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! From GeoZay at aol.com Fri Nov 6 09:45:30 2009 From: GeoZay at aol.com (GeoZay at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:45:30 EST Subject: [meteorite-list] Large fireball over Tokyo at 8:25pm 6NOV09 Message-ID: >> I just witnessed a large fireball over the Tokyo area from my balcony. The fireball changed from blue, red to green. No sound was heard. The fireball terminated at approximately 10-15 degrees above the horizon. Traveling direction was from E-SE at approximately 140-150 degrees from North. I was viewing this event from a 10th floor apartment balcony and have a ground refernece tower for extinction reference. This is the second largest fireball that I have seen in my life and perhaps Japan will have a new meteorite!<< I'm just guessing based on shower activity, but this could be a Taurid. One of the peaks should be right about now. If so, I wouldn't expect any me teorites even though this shower produces quite a few bright meteors. GeoZay From drtanuki at yahoo.com Fri Nov 6 10:08:39 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 07:08:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Large fireball over Tokyo at 8:25pm 6NOV09 correction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <972034.77580.qm@web53110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear George and List, November has about 60 witnessed meteorite falls historically; so I would not yet rule this fireball a "dry" Taurid. Hopefully there will be more reports and several videos. I have corrected my reporting error to the research groups but have not done so here on the MetList or Meteorobs. The traveling direction of the fireball was from WN-to-NW. I made an error in my excitement and forgot that the compass that I was using was last used in the Southern Hemisphere, thus my readings were off by 180 degrees. I was shaking from excitement after witnessing the event. This is the fourth large fireball that I have witnessed in my lifetime of 50 years and #2 of 4 in brightness. The closest recovered meteorite near the estimated path of the fall is SAYAMA, Saitama Prefecture, Japan. Hopefully Ohtsuka-San will have some good news from the Sonata Corp fireball network? Ohtsuka-san please contact me off-list. Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo --- On Fri, 11/6/09, GeoZay at aol.com wrote: > From: GeoZay at aol.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Large fireball over Tokyo at 8:25pm 6NOV09 > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 11:45 PM > >>? I just witnessed a > large fireball? over the Tokyo area from my balcony. > The fireball changed from blue, red? to green.? > No sound was heard.? The > fireball terminated at? approximately 10-15 degrees > above the horizon.? > Traveling direction was? from E-SE at approximately > 140-150 degrees from North.? > I was viewing this? event from a 10th floor apartment > balcony and have a > ground refernece tower for? extinction reference. > This is the second largest fireball that I have? seen > in my life and > perhaps Japan will have a new meteorite!<< > > I'm? just guessing based on shower activity, but this > could be a Taurid. > One of the? peaks should be right about now. If so, I > wouldn't expect any me > teorites even? though this shower produces quite a few > bright meteors. > GeoZay? > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From bencubbin at hotmail.com Fri Nov 6 11:38:39 2009 From: bencubbin at hotmail.com (Howard Steffic) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:38:39 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] buzz coulee availability ???? In-Reply-To: <990723.28703.qm@web57805.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <990723.28703.qm@web57805.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Buzz Coulee??? Do you mean Buzz Lightyear? http://www-cse.stanford.edu/classes/sophomore-college/projects-00/neural-networks/Future/images/buzz.jpg Or BUZZARD Coulee the meteorite? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzzard_Coulee_meteorite As you can see from the photos there is a big difference. Also, please try to learn basic grammar skills. Whether you mean Buzz Lightyear or Buzzard Coulee, they are proper names and should be capitalized. When you finally get a Buzzard Couleee Meteorite, please let us all know so that we can buy it from you off of ebay for half price when you are tired of it in a week. And when you do sell it, try to keep in mind that FOR SALE is two words not one word. Thanks Steve, you are great. Your wife must be proud of you. Howard Howard Steffic ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 06:08:37 -0800 > From: stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] buzz coulee availability > > Good morning list.TGIF!!! Hey I was wondering if there are any USA collecters that have received more than 1 piece of buzz coulee,with those export papers,which I disdain,have any forsale?6 months to a year to wait for those things have made it just not worth collecting that fall.From the pieces I've seen it is a great stoney fall to have.But there is always LEGAL BS to have to wade thru.Please off list if you have any if not,hey I tried.Have a great day and weekend all. > Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ From Midwest at Meteorman.org Fri Nov 6 11:56:55 2009 From: Midwest at Meteorman.org (Timothy Heitz) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 10:56:55 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - 102.5 gram Esquel - for sale References: <495722.99486.qm@web110113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43E15486C0054F04A823D03BAF10D1D9@den> Hi List, I have a 102.5g slice.Equel I need to sell, e-mail me off list if your interested. I have this priced well below the market price Pictures of the Equel below http://www.meteorman.org/Esquel-102.5g.htm Best Regards, Tim Heitz From carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 6 12:08:24 2009 From: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com (Carl 's) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:08:24 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Whetstone Mountains meteorite monograph last call... Message-ID: Hi, Hey, What do you know? It's official. http://tin.er.usgs.gov/meteor/metbull.php?sea=whetstone&sfor=names&ants=yes&falls=no&valids=&stype=contains&lrec=50&map=ge&browse=&country=All&srt=&categ=All&mblist=All&rect=&phot=&snew=0&pnt=Normal%20table&code=49514 Carl > > Hi All, > > To avoid this ongoing back and forth re: the availability of numbers, I'm > posting what's left here. Almost gone... > > 86, 90-95 > > www.fallingrocks.com/whetstoneazmonograph > > All the best, > > Dave Gheesling > IMCA #5967 > www.fallingrocks.com > _________________________________________________________________ Find the right PC with Windows 7 and Windows Live. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/pc-scout/laptop-set-criteria.aspx?cbid=wl&filt=200,2400,10,19,1,3,1,7,50,650,2,12,0,1000&cat=1,2,3,4,5,6&brands=5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16&addf=4,5,9&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen2:112009 From fujmon at mac.com Fri Nov 6 12:19:50 2009 From: fujmon at mac.com (Gary Fujihara) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 07:19:50 -1000 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD-Novel November auctions on eBay Message-ID: <4CCBDA75-08E5-4FE9-BD3A-9BC3047B5F3B@mac.com> Aloha mai kak?u, I hope most of you still retain all of your unperforated teeth in your heads after last weekend?s premier sugar rush event. To celebrate (getting past Halloween, and perhaps a trip to the dentist), I have some great meteorite deals on eBay, with auctions ending tomorrow, Saturday, November 7, starting at 8:17am PST / 11:17 am Eastern / 3:17 pm London. Items on the block include: NWA x 11.33g, Lipping over flight break, bid at $1.29 NWA x 87.0g, Low-metal, possible L/LL, start at $44 NWA x 17.21g, Oriented dome beauty, bid at 99? Bassikounou H5 5.12g, Another PERFECT Bassi, bid at $8.50 Chergach H5 9.43g, 99% FC ORIENTED bid at $18.86 Allende CV3 2.99g, Crusted Carbonaceous Pea, start at $29 NWA x CV3 63.45g, Nice larger individual, start at $125 Camel Donga Euc 6.04g, Flowlines and ridging, start at $84 Millbillilli Euc 4.05g, PERFECT baby Millie, bid at $39 Sulagiri LL6 3.74g, Crusted partslice, bid at $32 Mantle Xenolith 328.6g, Light scoria w/ grey-green crystals http://shop.ebay.com/fujmon/m.html Preview of Nov 14 auction: NWA x oriented 38g, NWA x 306g windowed, NWA 869 12.70g lot of 6, Bassi 4.09g, Chergach 9.85g, Allende 8.8g 95% FC, Allende 0.67g crusted frag, NWA x CV3 14.49g, Camel Donga 2.29g AAA, Millbillillie 4.36g AAA, Tatahouine 1.81g frag, NWA x Pal rare, Norton County 1.0g crusted frags, Bilanga 1.08g crusted frags, Sulagiri 3.63g slice, Mundrabilla 18.06g, Henbury 14.72g, Sikhote Alin 6.39g Oriented, and Yet Another Mantle Xenolith (Olivine Bomb). Trust the Big Kahuna to provide the highest quality meteorites for the lowest prices! Gary Fujihara AstroDay Institute 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720 (808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com http://astroday.net From fuzzfoot at comcast.net Fri Nov 6 13:34:15 2009 From: fuzzfoot at comcast.net (Mike Bandli) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 10:34:15 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - More publications ending on eBay Message-ID: <2DDECE464A4E46D8A4DB040491945825@Bandli1> Dear List: http://shop.ebay.com/historicmeteorites/m.html Some more nice publications are ending this weekend including Antarctic research and some old issues of Meteoritics. Thanks for looking! ----------------------------------- Mike Bandli Historic Meteorites www.HistoricMeteorites.com IMCA?#5765 ------------------------------------ From geoking at notkin.net Fri Nov 6 13:47:14 2009 From: geoking at notkin.net (Notkin) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 11:47:14 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Men 6 More Episodes In-Reply-To: References: <71B13D8246374217896D21F5B939F0B4@ET> Message-ID: <934C900F-8E53-44B0-A504-BACF574D964B@notkin.net> Dear Phil and Greg: Phil, thank you for posting the press release. We're thrilled that Science Channel has announced the official broadcast dates for the new season of "Meteorite Men." Several episodes will debut during the 2010 gem show, and Steve and I will try to organize some kind of screening party. As Science has invested a great deal of time and money in the show the episodes are unlikely to be broadcast on the web, at this time, as the cable network needs to recoup their investment through ad sales. We do hope/expect that all seven episodes (new series + the pilot) will be released on DVD at some point, and we'd like to see some bonus features added in as well. Some cable and satellite providers will allow you to add a single channel to your lineup for a small fee, so you might call yours and ask if that's possible. The new series will consist of six one-hour episodes. We visited eight meteorite sites as well as numerous museums and universities, and it was an amazing, exciting, and never-to-be-forgotten experience. I really had no idea how difficult it is to make an entire series, but I sure found out : ) We've been on the road for nearly two months and I just got home, finally, on Wednesday night after a brilliant day shooting at the Center for Meteorite Studies at ASU, Tempe. We were also lucky enough to welcome several well known guest stars to the show. The show benefitted greatly from their humor and expertise. Steve and I have been lucky enough to have some great adventures during our twelve-year hunting partnership, but nothing came close to being on tour with the "Meteorite Men" crew. The first three episodes are already in the edit bays and we eagerly await the results. I hope you and the rest of the M-List enjoy the new shows. We certainly gave it our all. Science is expected to add some trailers and promo to their website over the coming months, so I'll let you know when that material is available for viewing. Thank you for your interest! And my apologies for those who have been trying to contact me recently. We were really off the grid for some of the shoots. Monday would be an excellent day to call or email. I'm not supposed to be in the office today : ) Respectfully, Geoff N. ***************** Geoffrey Notkin Aerolite Meteorites - Meteorite Men P.O. Box 36652 Tucson, AZ 85740, USA (888) SKY ROXX (520) 742 3333 info at aerolite.org www.aerolite.org www.meteoritemen.com www.meteoriteblog.org www.tucsoncitizen.com/lizard From mrmeteorite at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 14:12:15 2009 From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com (Ruben Garcia) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 12:12:15 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] BBC Meteorite Hunt and Meteorite Men Message-ID: <80659e1a0911061112q1d4b470ek1e06d526ca665fcf@mail.gmail.com> Hi Geoff, Steve and all, Congratulations once again to Geoff and Steve on the first ever Meteorite related series! I hope that everyone realizes just how great this will be for meteorite collecting (in my opinion) and what an amazing feat getting a TV series is. I'll be first in line when the seven episodes go to DVD. For those who can't wait to get their meteorite hunting fix. The BBC just aired (yesterday) a meteorite hunting program featuring myself and Laurence Garvie (ASU) as we hunted for meteorites in southern Arizona. The program took many hours of hunting and condensed it into 6 minutes of exciting radio. The show is now available to listen to on line. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006wj9b -- Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u From lintonius at earthlink.net Fri Nov 6 14:30:22 2009 From: lintonius at earthlink.net (Linton Rohr) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 11:30:22 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] BBC Meteorite Hunt and Meteorite Men References: <80659e1a0911061112q1d4b470ek1e06d526ca665fcf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <859659718C0147F8849D73D9A4E31E79@D190TH71> "I'll be first in line when the seven episodes go to DVD." That makes two of us, Ruben! I can't add the channel, as I have no cable at all. Long story. I did recently purchase my first DVD player/recorder though, so I'm not completely "old school"! ;^) Kudos to Geoff and Steve! I can't wait. In the meantime, I'll check out your condensed BBC program. Linton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruben Garcia" To: "Meteorite List" Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 11:12 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BBC Meteorite Hunt and Meteorite Men > Hi Geoff, Steve and all, > > Congratulations once again to Geoff and Steve on the first ever > Meteorite related series! I hope that everyone realizes just how great > this will be for meteorite collecting (in my opinion) and what an > amazing feat getting a TV series is. I'll be first in line when the > seven episodes go to DVD. > > For those who can't wait to get their meteorite hunting fix. The BBC > just aired (yesterday) a meteorite hunting program featuring myself > and Laurence Garvie (ASU) as we hunted for meteorites in southern > Arizona. The program took many hours of hunting and condensed it into > 6 minutes of exciting radio. > > The show is now available to listen to on line. > http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006wj9b > > > -- > Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) > > Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net > Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ > Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Fri Nov 6 15:19:08 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 12:19:08 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] BBC Meteorite Hunt and Meteorite Men In-Reply-To: <80659e1a0911061112q1d4b470ek1e06d526ca665fcf@mail.gmail.com> References: <80659e1a0911061112q1d4b470ek1e06d526ca665fcf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ruben: Very nice and well done.? Congratulations on being selected, and for your contributions to this broadcast. Now I must start dancing. Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 12:12:15 -0700 > From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] BBC Meteorite Hunt and Meteorite Men > > Hi Geoff, Steve and all, > > Congratulations once again to Geoff and Steve on the first ever > Meteorite related series! I hope that everyone realizes just how great > this will be for meteorite collecting (in my opinion) and what an > amazing feat getting a TV series is. I'll be first in line when the > seven episodes go to DVD. > > For those who can't wait to get their meteorite hunting fix. The BBC > just aired (yesterday) a meteorite hunting program featuring myself > and Laurence Garvie (ASU) as we hunted for meteorites in southern > Arizona. The program took many hours of hunting and condensed it into > 6 minutes of exciting radio. > > The show is now available to listen to on line. > http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006wj9b > > > -- > Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) > > Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net > Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ > Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Fri Nov 6 15:20:56 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 12:20:56 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Men 6 More Episodes In-Reply-To: <934C900F-8E53-44B0-A504-BACF574D964B@notkin.net> References: <71B13D8246374217896D21F5B939F0B4@ET> Message-ID: <934C900F-8E53-44B0-A504-BACF574D964B at notkin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Geoff: Thanks and congratulations on you work.=A0 If I don't change my cable servi= ce=2C I'll be looking for the DVD's. Best of luck and I hope it continues. Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > From: geoking at notkin.net > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Fri=2C 6 Nov 2009 11:47:14 -0700 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Men 6 More Episodes > > Dear Phil and Greg: > > Phil=2C thank you for posting the press release. We're thrilled that > Science Channel has announced the official broadcast dates for the new > season of "Meteorite Men." Several episodes will debut during the 2010 > gem show=2C and Steve and I will try to organize some kind of screening > party. > > As Science has invested a great deal of time and money in the show the > episodes are unlikely to be broadcast on the web=2C at this time=2C as th= e > cable network needs to recoup their investment through ad sales. We do > hope/expect that all seven episodes (new series + the pilot) will be > released on DVD at some point=2C and we'd like to see some bonus > features added in as well. Some cable and satellite providers will > allow you to add a single channel to your lineup for a small fee=2C so > you might call yours and ask if that's possible. > > The new series will consist of six one-hour episodes. We visited eight > meteorite sites as well as numerous museums and universities=2C and it > was an amazing=2C exciting=2C and never-to-be-forgotten experience. I > really had no idea how difficult it is to make an entire series=2C but I > sure found out : ) We've been on the road for nearly two months and > I just got home=2C finally=2C on Wednesday night after a brilliant day > shooting at the Center for Meteorite Studies at ASU=2C Tempe. We were > also lucky enough to welcome several well known guest stars to the > show. The show benefitted greatly from their humor and expertise. > > Steve and I have been lucky enough to have some great adventures > during our twelve-year hunting partnership=2C but nothing came close to > being on tour with the "Meteorite Men" crew. The first three episodes > are already in the edit bays and we eagerly await the results. I hope > you and the rest of the M-List enjoy the new shows. We certainly gave > it our all. Science is expected to add some trailers and promo to > their website over the coming months=2C so I'll let you know when that > material is available for viewing. > > Thank you for your interest! > > And my apologies for those who have been trying to contact me > recently. We were really off the grid for some of the shoots. Monday > would be an excellent day to call or email. I'm not supposed to be in > the office today : ) > > > Respectfully=2C > > Geoff N. > > > ***************** > Geoffrey Notkin > Aerolite Meteorites - Meteorite Men > P.O. Box 36652 > Tucson=2C AZ 85740=2C USA > > (888) SKY ROXX > (520) 742 3333 > info at aerolite.org > > www.aerolite.org > www.meteoritemen.com > www.meteoriteblog.org > www.tucsoncitizen.com/lizard > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list =20 _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps=2C menus=2C and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=3Drestaurants&form=3DMFESRP&publ=3DWLHMTAG&cre= a=3DTEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1= From mrmeteorite at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 15:24:10 2009 From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com (Ruben Garcia) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 13:24:10 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] BBC Meteorite Hunt and Meteorite Men In-Reply-To: References: <80659e1a0911061112q1d4b470ek1e06d526ca665fcf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80659e1a0911061224s7eeb32a4x46df99882c189718@mail.gmail.com> Ha ha, That's funny Greg! But now I have to explain to everyone that the program following ours was interpretive dance dedicated to Darwin. Something like that anyway.... Time to finish packing as I'm leaving for another exciting hunt! On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Greg Stanley wrote: > > Ruben: > > Very nice and well done.? Congratulations on being selected, and for your contributions to this broadcast. > > Now I must start dancing. > > Greg S. > > ---------------------------------------- >> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 12:12:15 -0700 >> From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com >> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Subject: [meteorite-list] BBC Meteorite Hunt and Meteorite Men >> >> Hi Geoff, Steve and all, >> >> Congratulations once again to Geoff and Steve on the first ever >> Meteorite related series! I hope that everyone realizes just how great >> this will be for meteorite collecting (in my opinion) and what an >> amazing feat getting a TV series is. I'll be first in line when the >> seven episodes go to DVD. >> >> For those who can't wait to get their meteorite hunting fix. The BBC >> just aired (yesterday) a meteorite hunting program featuring myself >> and Laurence Garvie (ASU) as we hunted for meteorites in southern >> Arizona. The program took many hours of hunting and condensed it into >> 6 minutes of exciting radio. >> >> The show is now available to listen to on line. >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006wj9b >> >> >> -- >> Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) >> >> Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net >> Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ >> Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ -- Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u From rocksfromspace at yahoo.com Fri Nov 6 16:19:05 2009 From: rocksfromspace at yahoo.com (Michael Johnson) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 13:19:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 6, 2009 Message-ID: <2762.80439.qm@web113014.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_6_2009.html From mmurray at montrose.net Fri Nov 6 16:19:04 2009 From: mmurray at montrose.net (Michael Murray) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:19:04 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] BBC Meteorite Hunt and Meteorite Men In-Reply-To: <859659718C0147F8849D73D9A4E31E79@D190TH71> References: <80659e1a0911061112q1d4b470ek1e06d526ca665fcf@mail.gmail.com> <859659718C0147F8849D73D9A4E31E79@D190TH71> Message-ID: Linton seconded: "I'll be first in line when the seven episodes go to DVD." Me as well Linton. We only have free-air reception and that is limited to about 4 channels. The channels that carry science shows certainly are not in the list. I'd be tickled to get DVDs of those shows. Mike in CO On Nov 6, 2009, at 12:30 PM, Linton Rohr wrote: > "I'll be first in line when the seven episodes go to DVD." > > That makes two of us, Ruben! > I can't add the channel, as I have no cable at all. Long story. > I did recently purchase my first DVD player/recorder though, so I'm > not completely "old school"! ;^) > Kudos to Geoff and Steve! I can't wait. > In the meantime, I'll check out your condensed BBC program. > Linton > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruben Garcia" > > To: "Meteorite List" > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 11:12 AM > Subject: [meteorite-list] BBC Meteorite Hunt and Meteorite Men > > >> Hi Geoff, Steve and all, >> Congratulations once again to Geoff and Steve on the first ever >> Meteorite related series! I hope that everyone realizes just how >> great >> this will be for meteorite collecting (in my opinion) and what an >> amazing feat getting a TV series is. I'll be first in line when the >> seven episodes go to DVD. >> For those who can't wait to get their meteorite hunting fix. The BBC >> just aired (yesterday) a meteorite hunting program featuring myself >> and Laurence Garvie (ASU) as we hunted for meteorites in southern >> Arizona. The program took many hours of hunting and condensed it into >> 6 minutes of exciting radio. >> The show is now available to listen to on line. >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006wj9b >> -- >> Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) >> Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net >> Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ >> Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From mlblood at cox.net Fri Nov 6 17:43:54 2009 From: mlblood at cox.net (Michael Blood) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 14:43:54 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Pricing Guide In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I went to your enclosed link and got only this: " Sorry, the GeoCities web site you were trying to reach is no longer available." I have never liked Yahoo because they require pass words and All that hookie zookie crapolla - but I would like to see the price guide To which you referred. Best wishes, Michael On 11/5/09 3:19 PM, "Greg Stanley" wrote: > > > List: > > I found this link a few years ago that listed the (price range) of virtually > all varieties of meteorites.? It seems to have disappeared. > > > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6717/priceguide.htm > > It did say "The Meteorite Express, Meteorite Pricing Guide" and was dated July > 2006. It was in Table form and the headings were 'CLASSIFICATION'?? '$/gram > LOW-HIGH'?? 'AVAILABILITY'. > > Does anyone know who created it, if it still exists and/or if it is updated?? > Or, does anyone know of something similar? > > This is really helpful to me determining what to buy and what I would like to > have in my collection. > > Much Thanks, > > Greg S. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From Impactika at aol.com Fri Nov 6 17:50:55 2009 From: Impactika at aol.com (Impactika at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 17:50:55 EST Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - Almahata Sitta, Thin-Sections, Pallasites, and more Message-ID: Hello everybody, It has been a long time since I have announced anything! Not that I am neglectiong my website and business, but I am busy translating and helping with a book and it has to be done very quickly so the book will be available in Tucson. However, I did take the time to add some very nice things to my site. First some bright sparkling pallasites, Esquel, Fukang, Seymchan, polished and etched. Pallasites are so pretty when etched by an expert. And some expertly etched rare irons: Cleburne, Sacramento Mountains, La Grange..... And some great Top Quality thin-sections. But those are not mine, they are ET's (Edwin Thompson). In case you wonder, ET is doing fine, Right ET? But he has asked me to sell his collection of thin-sections for him. They are almost all "David New quality", since they were made by the same expert who makes mine. And they are some rare ones: Bells, D'Orbigny, NWA 998 nakhlite, ... and more. If you know ET's collection and want something in particular, just let me know. Otherwise, be patient, they will show up on my site, a little at a time, but with Great pictures (Thank you John!). .. Last, but certainly not least, yes, I do have a couple thin-sections of Almahata Sitta. I will get a few more but I want to emphasize "few". So if you ever dreamt of owning one, please speak up very quickly. As usual, let me know if you have any questions. Thanks. Anne M. Black http://www.impactika.com/ IMPACTIKA at aol.com Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. http://www.imca.cc/ From fuzzfoot at comcast.net Fri Nov 6 17:53:45 2009 From: fuzzfoot at comcast.net (Mike Bandli) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:53:45 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Pricing Guide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1EBF03A517634F858B022C4CEC775E4C@Bandli1> You can back-door it by clicking the archive here: (http://web.archive.org/web/20070819192144/http://www.geocities.com/CapeCana veral/6717/priceguide.htm) ----------------------------------- Mike Bandli Historic Meteorites www.HistoricMeteorites.com IMCA #5765 ----------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael Blood Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:44 PM To: Greg Stanley; Meteorite List Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Pricing Guide I went to your enclosed link and got only this: " Sorry, the GeoCities web site you were trying to reach is no longer available." I have never liked Yahoo because they require pass words and All that hookie zookie crapolla - but I would like to see the price guide To which you referred. Best wishes, Michael On 11/5/09 3:19 PM, "Greg Stanley" wrote: > > > List: > > I found this link a few years ago that listed the (price range) of virtually > all varieties of meteorites.? It seems to have disappeared. > > > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6717/priceguide.htm > > It did say "The Meteorite Express, Meteorite Pricing Guide" and was dated July > 2006. It was in Table form and the headings were 'CLASSIFICATION'?? '$/gram > LOW-HIGH'?? 'AVAILABILITY'. > > Does anyone know who created it, if it still exists and/or if it is updated?? > Or, does anyone know of something similar? > > This is really helpful to me determining what to buy and what I would like to > have in my collection. > > Much Thanks, > > Greg S. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From Impactika at aol.com Fri Nov 6 18:09:02 2009 From: Impactika at aol.com (Impactika at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 18:09:02 EST Subject: [meteorite-list] Daule Ecuador Fall Recovered Message-ID: Welcome to the MetList Jose. I am sorry you are disappointed by the way the first meteorite of Ecuador was recovered. But look at it this way: one mass is staying in Ecuador, hopefully it will soon be on display in a Museum. And there is still one mass waiting to be recovered, maybe you will be the one to find it, and then you could be in a position to accomplish something few have done: improve the laws in one country. Just think about this. This is certainly not the only meteorite to have ever fallen in Ecuador, there must be many more, but no one has ever thought of looking for them, and if the police keeps on confiscating any new discovery, there will be no incentive for anyone to look for them. But since you are educated and know what meteorites are, what they mean to sciences, maybe you could be the one who could explain to people in power, maybe a Museum of Natural History in Quito.that there is a much better way to address the problem. For instance, you could suggest that the Museum makes a deal with people who find meteorites, the finder keeps half and the Museum gets half. I know some finders want to keep all but that is a selfish attitude. Obviously we don't know if the Museum would accept that deal, but you will not know until you ask. Maybe they will say no, but if you can convince them, you will set a great example for many other countries to follow. Best of luck to you. Anne M. Black _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) _IMPACTIKA at aol.com_ (mailto:IMPACTIKA at aol.com) Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) ------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 11/4/2009 10:38:21 PM Mountain Standard Time, jose118 at hotmail.com writes: Hello list members, Right now I had a mix of feelings. I'm happy to know that the meteorite on my homecountry, Ecuador, is been studied, but at the same time I'm so sad to know that I will not be able to get a piece of it, or to know that maybe some day I'll need to pay for something that fell in my country. According to what I read about this meteorite and what the videos said about it, is that Ecuadorian authorities made a preleminary study of the "rock" in about 10 minutes (!!!), then they try to compare it with a meteorite that fell on Morocco (how many meteorites fell on Morocco??!!!!) that has similar characteristics...HAHAHA...I hate the way how Rony (who calls himself astronaut, instead of cosmonaut), just because people in my country don't know about the topic, lie to people. Yes, it is a meteorite, but no one can said that a meteorite has similar characteristics with another in less than a few hours!!!...Between EXA and the astronomical observatory they were argueing about who must hav e this meteorite. But now I know, with great dissapointment, who has it and where it is. In this case, I'm agree with the laws that Argentina has about meteorites. I feel like all my effort to finish college (Aerospace Engineering) and try to share my knowledge with people in my homecountry has been destroyed with people and actions like this!!! Jose Villavicencio From lintonius at earthlink.net Fri Nov 6 18:24:24 2009 From: lintonius at earthlink.net (Linton Rohr) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 15:24:24 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Pricing Guide References: <1EBF03A517634F858B022C4CEC775E4C@Bandli1> Message-ID: <7ECFD6DED7FE420590EE2A2AE46F5586@D190TH71> Ah ha! Thanks Mike! Document saved, as well as printed. With a grain of salt... Linton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Bandli" To: "'Michael Blood'" ; "'Greg Stanley'" ; "'Meteorite List'" Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Pricing Guide You can back-door it by clicking the archive here: (http://web.archive.org/web/20070819192144/http://www.geocities.com/CapeCana veral/6717/priceguide.htm) ----------------------------------- Mike Bandli Historic Meteorites www.HistoricMeteorites.com IMCA #5765 ----------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael Blood Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:44 PM To: Greg Stanley; Meteorite List Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Pricing Guide I went to your enclosed link and got only this: " Sorry, the GeoCities web site you were trying to reach is no longer available." I have never liked Yahoo because they require pass words and All that hookie zookie crapolla - but I would like to see the price guide To which you referred. Best wishes, Michael On 11/5/09 3:19 PM, "Greg Stanley" wrote: > > > List: > > I found this link a few years ago that listed the (price range) of virtually > all varieties of meteorites. It seems to have disappeared. > > > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6717/priceguide.htm > > It did say "The Meteorite Express, Meteorite Pricing Guide" and was dated July > 2006. It was in Table form and the headings were 'CLASSIFICATION' '$/gram > LOW-HIGH' 'AVAILABILITY'. > > Does anyone know who created it, if it still exists and/or if it is updated? > Or, does anyone know of something similar? > > This is really helpful to me determining what to buy and what I would like to > have in my collection. > > Much Thanks, > > Greg S. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Fri Nov 6 18:39:09 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 15:39:09 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Pricing Guide In-Reply-To: <1EBF03A517634F858B022C4CEC775E4C@Bandli1> References: <1EBF03A517634F858B022C4CEC775E4C@Bandli1> Message-ID: Nice - Thanks Mike ---------------------------------------- > From: fuzzfoot at comcast.net > To: mlblood at cox.net; stanleygregr at hotmail.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Pricing Guide > Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:53:45 -0800 > > You can back-door it by clicking the archive here: > > (http://web.archive.org/web/20070819192144/http://www.geocities.com/CapeCana > veral/6717/priceguide.htm) > > > ----------------------------------- > Mike Bandli > Historic Meteorites > www.HistoricMeteorites.com > IMCA #5765 > ----------------------------------------------- > > -----Original Message----- > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael > Blood > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:44 PM > To: Greg Stanley; Meteorite List > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Pricing Guide > > I went to your enclosed link and got only this: > " Sorry, the GeoCities web site you were trying to reach is no longer > available." > I have never liked Yahoo because they require pass words and > All that hookie zookie crapolla - but I would like to see the price guide > To which you referred. > Best wishes, Michael > > > > On 11/5/09 3:19 PM, "Greg Stanley" wrote: > >> >> >> List: >> >> I found this link a few years ago that listed the (price range) of > virtually >> all varieties of meteorites. It seems to have disappeared. >> >> >> http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6717/priceguide.htm >> >> It did say "The Meteorite Express, Meteorite Pricing Guide" and was dated > July >> 2006. It was in Table form and the headings were 'CLASSIFICATION' > '$/gram >> LOW-HIGH' 'AVAILABILITY'. >> >> Does anyone know who created it, if it still exists and/or if it is > updated? >> Or, does anyone know of something similar? >> >> This is really helpful to me determining what to buy and what I would like > to >> have in my collection. >> >> Much Thanks, >> >> Greg S. >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. >> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ >> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From fuzzfoot at comcast.net Fri Nov 6 18:40:05 2009 From: fuzzfoot at comcast.net (Mike Bandli) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 15:40:05 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Seeking_info_on_Mez=F6-Madaras?= Message-ID: <917F550E5A1A45508C7FC85861F74FF8@Bandli1> Dear List: I am trying to compile data for a write-up on the Mez?-Madaras fall of 1852 and am seeking any info or publications detailing the circumstances or personal accounts of this witnessed fall. I have plenty of scientific data, but details of the fall itself are few and far between. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Have a great weekend! ----------------------------------- Mike Bandli Historic Meteorites www.HistoricMeteorites.com IMCA?#5765 ----------------------------------- From orrlarue at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 18:43:59 2009 From: orrlarue at gmail.com (Or) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 16:43:59 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] BBC Meteorite Hunt and Meteorite Men In-Reply-To: <80659e1a0911061112q1d4b470ek1e06d526ca665fcf@mail.gmail.com> References: <80659e1a0911061112q1d4b470ek1e06d526ca665fcf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <496f9bcf0911061543t4ec23ccaudbe8305738de2f04@mail.gmail.com> Ruben The audio broadcast was awesome. ?Me and my buddy are going to head to an area about 80 miles west of PHX when we both have a day off. ?He says it looks promising. ?The mountain bikes are ready. We are both retired science teachers. I want you to know that you have inspired me in my elusive search for that first cold find (YouTube Vids). ?Thanks again for firing me up. ?I'll be attending the Tucson Show and would like to shake your hand. ?Keep up the great work. Orrin ?La Rue Surprise, AZ On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 12:12 PM, Ruben Garcia wrote: > Hi Geoff, Steve and all, > > Congratulations once again to Geoff and Steve on the first ever > Meteorite related series! I hope that everyone realizes just how great > this will be for meteorite collecting (in my opinion) and what an > amazing feat getting a TV series is. I'll be first in line when the > seven episodes go to DVD. > > For those who can't wait to get their meteorite hunting fix. The BBC > just aired (yesterday) a meteorite hunting program featuring myself > and Laurence Garvie (ASU) as we hunted for meteorites in southern > Arizona. The program took many hours of hunting and condensed it into > 6 minutes of exciting radio. > > The show is now available to listen to on line. > http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006wj9b > > > -- > Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) > > Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net > Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ > Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From orrlarue at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 18:50:51 2009 From: orrlarue at gmail.com (Or) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 16:50:51 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Test Message-ID: <496f9bcf0911061550g1465485bw67c1b6212f192c6b@mail.gmail.com> From orrlarue at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 19:05:44 2009 From: orrlarue at gmail.com (Or) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 17:05:44 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Test Message-ID: <496f9bcf0911061605t3c8b2a6ft376f661fdf3e801f@mail.gmail.com> Test 1234 From orrlarue at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 19:20:56 2009 From: orrlarue at gmail.com (Or) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 17:20:56 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Test Message-ID: <496f9bcf0911061620r2d7f2b6bmd947ff098c3e7e2d@mail.gmail.com> Test From mrmeteorite at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 19:34:20 2009 From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com (Ruben Garcia) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 17:34:20 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] BBC Meteorite Hunt and Meteorite Men In-Reply-To: <496f9bcf0911061543t4ec23ccaudbe8305738de2f04@mail.gmail.com> References: <80659e1a0911061112q1d4b470ek1e06d526ca665fcf@mail.gmail.com> <496f9bcf0911061543t4ec23ccaudbe8305738de2f04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80659e1a0911061634g3210349ck262d97c740fd978e@mail.gmail.com> Hi Orrin, Thanks for the nice words! I think the BBC did a nice job too. Thanks also to Laurence and Pauline for the invitaion to do it. I will try to keep inspiring videos coming and would love to meet and hang out in Tucson this year. P.S. If you need help finding those elusive stones contact me and I'll try to help. Ruben On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 4:43 PM, Or wrote: > Ruben > > The audio broadcast was awesome. ?Me and my buddy are going to head to > an area about 80 miles west of PHX when we both have a day off. ?He > says it looks promising. ?The mountain bikes are ready. We are both > retired science teachers. I want you to know that you have inspired me > in my elusive search for that first cold find (YouTube Vids). ?Thanks > again for firing me up. ?I'll be attending the Tucson Show and would > like to shake your hand. ?Keep up the great work. > > Orrin ?La Rue > Surprise, AZ > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 12:12 PM, Ruben Garcia wrote: >> Hi Geoff, Steve and all, >> >> Congratulations once again to Geoff and Steve on the first ever >> Meteorite related series! I hope that everyone realizes just how great >> this will be for meteorite collecting (in my opinion) and what an >> amazing feat getting a TV series is. I'll be first in line when the >> seven episodes go to DVD. >> >> For those who can't wait to get their meteorite hunting fix. The BBC >> just aired (yesterday) a meteorite hunting program featuring myself >> and Laurence Garvie (ASU) as we hunted for meteorites in southern >> Arizona. The program took many hours of hunting and condensed it into >> 6 minutes of exciting radio. >> >> The show is now available to listen to on line. >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006wj9b >> >> >> -- >> Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) >> >> Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net >> Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ >> Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u From epgrondine at yahoo.com Thu Nov 5 20:34:09 2009 From: epgrondine at yahoo.com (E.P. Grondine) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:34:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Younger Dryas comet fragment impacts, part 1 Message-ID: <443804.116.qm@web36908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Paul - Denial is not simply a river in Egypt. I'm sticking with the Kiscoty structure from an ice sheet impact myself. See also: http://forum.palanth.com/index.php/topic,1093.0.html I think that what is being viewed as Younger Dryas cooling may just be melt water flowing into the North Atlantic measurement locations. But then Shiva surprised the hell out of me. 20 teratons of explosive force. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas What Caused the Younger Dryas? An Assessment of Existing Hypotheses A. E. Carlson1; P. U. Clark2 1. Department of Geoscience, University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, WI, USA. 2. Department of Geosciences, Oregon State University, Corvallis, OR, USA. The Younger Dryas cold event (~12.9-11.7 ka) has long been viewed as the canonical abrupt climate event. It was originally attributed to northward retreat of the southern Laurentide Ice Sheet (LIS) and eastward routing of Lake Agassiz from the Mississippi River to the St. Lawrence River, with the attendant freshening of the North Atlantic causing a reduction in Atlantic meridional overturning circulation (AMOC) strength. This original hypothesis has now been questioned based on 1) LIS model simulations that suggest an abrupt Arctic discharge of freshwater as the trigger, and 2) new dates from the outlets of Lake Agassiz, which are interpreted as indicating that the lake had no outlet during most of the Younger Dryas. With regards to Arctic freshwater forcing, one LIS model simulation produced a 0.09 Sverdrup (Sv) pulse of freshwater to the Arctic Ocean at the start of the Younger Dryas forced by a linearly interpolated Greenland ice-core climate scheme. However, this pulse lasted <300 yrs, which is too short to explain the 1200-yr long event in the most advanced atmosphere-ocean general circulation models. The negligible sea-level rise that occurred during the Younger Dryas also rules out a significantly longer forcing from LIS melting. Finally, existing paleoceanographic records show no evidence of an increase in North American freshwater discharge to the Arctic Ocean at the start of the Younger Dryas, thus strongly questioning the Arctic-forcing hypothesis. Recent dating efforts on the Lake Agassiz outlets have mainly used minimum limiting radiocarbon dates, exclusively in the case of the eastern outlet where Lake Agassiz freshwater was supposedly routed during the Younger Dryas. A strict interpretation of these dates demonstrates, however, that they are not in conflict with the original routing hypothesis. The oldest minimum limiting macrofossil date constraining the southern outlet requires abandonment prior to ~12.8 ka, with the oldest macrofossil date from the eastern outlet indicating it was open prior to ~12.6 ka (potentially prior to ~13 ka based on the oldest bulk radiocarbon date). This chronology agrees with runoff proxies from the mouths of the Mississippi and St. Lawrence Rivers, where multiple planktonic oxygen-isotope records indicate the abandonment of the southern outlet and five independent geochemical runoff proxies record the routing of Lake Agassiz freshwater to the eastern outlet at the start of the Younger Dryas. Geochemical modeling of these latter proxies suggests freshwater discharge increases to the North Atlantic of 0.06-0.12 Sv for the duration of the Younger Dryas, which is sufficient forcing to explain this cold event. AMOC-sensitive proxy records show Younger Dryas-like events during earlier deglaciations that were forced by similar magnitude changes in boreal summer insolation as during the last deglaciation, arguing against a unique bolide forcing of the Younger Dryas. ID# PP31D-1382 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South)Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM Human Population Decline in North America during the Younger Dryas D. G. Anderson1; A. C. Goodyear2; T. W. Stafford, Jr.3; J. Kennett4; A. West5 1. Dept. of Anthropology, The Univ. of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN, USA. 2. South Carolina Institute of Archaeology and Anthropology, Univ. of South Carolina, Columbia, SC, USA. 3. Stafford Research, Inc., Lafayette, CO, USA. 4. Dept. of Earth Science and Marine Science Institute, Univ. of California, Santa Barbara, CA, USA. 5. GeoScience Consulting, Dewey, AZ, USA. There is ongoing debate about a possible human population decline or contraction at the onset of the Younger Dryas (YD) at 12.9 ka. We used two methods to test whether the YD affected human population levels: (1) frequency analyses of Paleoindian projectile points, and (2) summed probability analyses of radiocarbon (14C) dates. The results suggest that a significant decline or reorganization of human populations occurred at 12.9 ka, continued through the initial centuries of the YD chronozone, then rebounded by the end of the YD. FREQUENCY ANALYSES: This method employed projectile point data from the Paleoindian Database of the Americas (PIDBA, http://pidba.utk.edu). We tallied diagnostic projectile points and obtained larger totals for Clovis points than for immediately post-Clovis points, which share an instrument-assisted fluting technique, typically using pressure or indirect percussion. Gainey, Vail, Debert, Redstone, and Cumberland point-styles utilized this method and are comparable to the Folsom style. For the SE U.S., the ratio of Clovis points (n=1993) to post-Clovis points (n=947) reveals a point decline of 52%. For the Great Plains, a comparison of Clovis and fluted points (n=4020) to Folsom points (n=2527) shows a point decline of 37%, which may translate into a population contraction of similar magnitude. In addition, eight major Clovis lithic quarry sites in the SE U.S. exhibit little to no evidence for immediate post-Clovis occupations, implying a major population decline. SUMMED PROBABILITIES: This method involved calibrating relevant 14C dates and combining the probabilities, after which major peaks and troughs in the trends are assumed to reflect changes in human demographics. Using 14C dates from Buchanan et al. (2008), we analyzed multiple regions, including the Southeast and Great Plains. Contrary to Buchanan et al., we found an abrupt, statistically significant decline at 12.9 ka, followed 200 to 900 years later by a rebound in the number of dates. The decline at the YD onset was more than 50%, similar in magnitude to the decline in Clovis-Folsom point ratios. While calibration and sampling factors may affect the trends, this abrupt decline is large and requires explanation. SUMMARY: Even though correlation does not equate with causation, the coeval YD decline in both points and 14C dates appears linked to significant changes in climate and biota, as represented by the megafaunal extinction. While the causes of the YD remain controversial, a human population decline appears to have occurred, at least across parts of North America. Furthermore, the YD onset is associated with the abrupt replacement of Clovis by regional or subregional scale cultural traditions, potentially reflecting decreased range mobility and increased population isolation. Projectile point distributions and summed probability analyses, we argue, are potentially useful approaches for exploring demographic changes at regional scales. ID# PP31D-1383 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South)Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM Problems with the Younger Dryas Boundary (YDB) Impact Hypothesis M. Boslough1 1. Sandia National Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM, USA. One breakthrough of 20th-century Earth science was the recognition of impacts as an important geologic process. The most obvious result is a crater. There are more than 170 confirmed terrestrial impact structures with a non-uniform spatial distribution suggesting more to be found. Many have been erased by tectonics and erosion. Deep water impacts do not form craters, and craters in ice sheets disappear when the ice melts. There is growing speculation that such hidden impacts have caused frequent major environmental events of the Holocene, but this is inconsistent with the astronomically-constrained population of Earth-crossing asteroids. Impacts can have consequences much more significant than excavation of a crater. The K/T boundary mass extinction is attributed to the environmental effects of a major impact, and some researchers argue that other extinctions, abrupt climate changes, and even civilization collapses have resulted from impacts. Nuclear winter models suggest that 2-km diameter asteroids exceed a "global catastrophe threshold" by injecting sufficient dust into the stratosphere to cause short-term climate changes, but would not necessarily collapse most natural ecosystems or cause mass extinctions. Globally-catastrophic impacts recur on timescales of about one million years. The 1994 collision of Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 with Jupiter led us recognize the significance of terrestrial airbursts caused by objects exploding violently in Earth?s atmosphere. We have invoked airbursts to explain rare forms of non-volcanic glasses and melts by using high-resolution computational models to improve our understanding of atmospheric explosions, and have suggested that multiple airbursts from fragmented impactors could be responsible for regional effects. Our models have been cited in support of the widely-publicized YDB impact hypothesis. Proponents claim that a broken comet exploded over North America, with some fragments cratering the Laurentide Ice Sheet. They suggest an abrupt climate change caused by impact-triggered meltwater forcing, along with massive wildfires, resulted in megafaunal extinctions and collapse of the Clovis culture. We argue that the physics of fragmentation, dispersion, and airburst is not consistent with the hypothesis; that observations are no more compatible with impact than with other causes; and that the probability of the scenario is effectively nil. Moreover, millennial-scale climate events are far more frequent than catastrophic impacts, and pose a much greater threat to humanity. Sandia is a multiprogram laboratory operated by Sandia Corp, a Lockheed Martin Company, for the US DOE under Contract DE-AC04-94AL85000. Probability density for largest asteroid impact since Last Glacial Maximum based on power-law size distribution. Comets are orders of magnitude less likely. Grazing trajectory or recent fragmentation further reduces probability. ID# PP31D-1384 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South)Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM Oblique impacts into low impedance layers A. M. Stickle1; P. H. Schultz1 1. Geological Sciences, Brown University, Providence, RI, USA. Planetary impacts occur indiscriminately, in all locations and materials. Varied geologic settings can have significant effects on the impact process, including the coupling between the projectile and target, the final damage patterns and modes of deformation that occur. For example, marine impact craters are not identical to impacts directly into bedrock or into sedimentary materials, though many of the same fundamental processes occur. It is therefore important, especially when considering terrestrial impacts, to understand how a low impedance sedimentary layer over bedrock affects the deformation process during and after a hypervelocity impact. As a first step, detailed comparisons between impacts and hydrocode models were performed. Experiments performed at the NASA Ames Vertical Gun Range of oblique impacts into polymethylmethacrylate (PMMA) targets with low impedance layers were performed and compared to experiments of targets without low impedance layers, as well as to hydrocode models under identical conditions. Impact velocities ranged from 5 km/s to 5.6 km/s, with trajectories from 30 degrees to 90 degrees above the horizontal. High-speed imaging provided documentation of the sequence and location of failure due to impact, which was compared to theoretical models. Plasticine and ice were used to construct the low impedance layers. The combination of experiments and models reveals the modes of failure due to a hypervelocity impact. How such failure is manifested at large scales can present a challenge for hydrocodes. CTH models tend to overestimate the amount of damage occurring within the targets and have difficulties perfectly reproducing morphologies; nevertheless, they provide significant and useful information about the failure modes and style within the material. CTH models corresponding to the experiments allow interpretation of the underlying processes involved as well as provide a benchmark for the experimental analysis. The transparency of PMMA allows a clear view of failure patterns within the target, providing a 3D picture of the final damage, as well as damage formation and propagation. Secondly, PMMA has mechanical properties similar to those of brittle rocks in the upper crust, making it an appropriate material for comparison to geologic materials. An impact into a PMMA target with a one-projectile-diameter thick plasticine layer causes damage distinct from an impact into a PMMA target without a low impedance layer. The extent of the final damage is much less in the target with the low impedance layer and begins to form at later times, there is little to no crater visible on the surface, and the formation and propagation of the damage is completely different, creating distinct subsurface damage patterns. Three-dimensional CTH hydrocode models show that the pressure history of material around and underneath the impact point is also different when a low impedance layer is present, leading to the variations in damage forming within the targets. ID# PP31D-1385 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South)Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM Beringian Megafaunal Extinctions at ~37 ka B.P.: Do Micrometeorites Embedded in Fossil Tusks and Skulls Indicate an Extraterrestial Precursor to the Younger Dryas Event? J. T. Hagstrum1; R. B. Firestone2; A. West3 1. U.S. Geological Survey, Menlo Park, CA, USA. 2. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, Berkeley, CA, USA. 3. GeoScience Consulting, Dewey, AZ, USA. Studies of Late Pleistocene megafaunal fossils and their ancient DNA from Beringia (eastern Siberia, Alaska, and the emerged Bering Strait) indicate sharp declines in steppe bison population diversity and horse body size, extinction of the Alaskan wild ass, and local extinctions of brown bear and woolly mammoth genetic lines beginning at about 37 ka B.P. Beringia is also well known for its remarkably preserved Late Pleistocene frozen animal mummies. 14C ages of these mummies are bimodally distributed, having peaks coincident with the earlier ~37 ka B.P., and ~13 ka B.P. Younger Dryas, onset extinction events. Associated with the ~37 ka B.P. event are, for example, the Berezovka mammoth, headless Selerikan horse, steppe bison ?Blue Babe?, and baby mammoths ?Dima? and ?Lyuba?. Analyses of these and other mummies indicate that they died instantly, in mostly healthy condition, with gut contents and high fat reserves indicative of a late summer to autumn season. An assortment of uneaten limbs and other body parts from a variety of species have also been found. Uniformitarian death scenarios inadequately account for the lack of evidence of normal predation and scavenging. Extensive internal injuries (e.g. large bone fractures, hemorrhaging) and apparent rapid burial of the mummies also indicate that something truly unusual happened at the time of these extinction events. We have discovered what appear to be micrometeorites embedded in seven Alaskan mammoth tusks and a Siberian bison skull acquired from commercial sources. 14C ages for five of these fossils have a weighted mean age of 33 ? 2 ka B.P. Laser ablation ICP-MS and XRF analyses of the particles indicate high Fe contents with compositions enriched in Ni and depleted in Ti, similar to Fe meteorites and unlike any natural terrestrial sources. Microprobe analyses of a Fe-Ni sulfide grain from tusk 2 also show that it contains between 3 and 20 weight percent Ni. SEM images and XRF analyses of a bison skull fragment show sharp-edged channels (~0.1 mm across) containing Fe sulfide material with botryoidal texture that appears to have cooled from a molten state. Multiple embedded particles are observed on only one side of the tusk and skull fossils, consistent with micrometeorites coming from a single direction. During recent visits to natural history collections in Berkeley, CA, New York City, and London, UK, embedded Fe-rich particles were uncovered in an additional 13 Alaskan bison, horse, and musk ox skulls, and a Siberian Elasmotherium skull. We propose that the extinctions, embedded micrometeorites, and frozen mummies contemporaneous with the ~37 ka B.P. event all resulted from an airburst (similar to the 1908 Tunguska event), or series of airbursts, across Beringia due to the breakup and deep atmospheric penetration of an Fe-Ni asteroid. The micrometeorites can be envisioned as shrapnel traveling within the blast wave(s). The instantaneous deaths, internal injuries, and possible traumatic amputations and decapitations in megafaunal mummies are consistent with blast injuries related to such a catastrophic scenario. ID# PP31D-1386 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South)Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM Evidence of four prehistoric supernovae <250 pc from Earth during the past 50,000 years R. B. Firestone1 1. Isotopes Project, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, El Cerrito, CA, USA. Analysis of the radiocarbon record for the past 50 ka indicates that four supernovae exploded near Earth 44 ka (~110 pc), 37 ka (~180 pc), 32 ka (~160 pc), and 22 ka (250 pc) ago. Each SN left a unique signature in the radiocarbon record consisting of a sudden increase in atmospheric radiocarbon at the time of the initial explosion due to the arrival of ?-rays and neutrinos, followed by a much larger increase in global radiocarbon spanning centuries due to cosmic rays produced by diffusive shock in the SN remnant, and concluding with the decay of the excess global 14C produced in these events. Temporal evolution of this signature is identical for each SN as if it were a ?standard candle?. The ~22 ka SN is most likely the Vela SN that is known to have exploded 10-30 ka ago 250 pc from Earth. The distances of the other SNe are calculated from the relative amounts of radiocarbon produced on Earth with respect to the Vela SN assuming a 1/r2 relationship. The rate of these nearby prehistoric SNe is comparable to that expected from the more distant historical SNe observed during the past 1000 years and it is consistent with the galactic cosmic ray rate at Earth. Global radiocarbon doubled after the ~44 ka SN which exploded 110 pc from Earth, a distance consistent with the Upper Scorpius OB Association. It coincides with the advent of modern man, mutations leading to the development of type A and B blood, and major megafaunal extinctions in Southeast Asia. An exponential fit to the past 18 ka of INTCAL04 ?14C data gives a half-life of 5700?700 yr, consistent with the half-life of 14C (5730 yr), and establishes an absolute scale of ?14C=5?2% for T=0 in 1950. Small variations about the exponential decay curve correlate with observed changes in the strength of Earth?s virtual axial dipole moment (VADM). Analysis of the energy necessary to produce the excess global radiocarbon indicates that these SNe explosions released ~3x1050 ergs of energy into the production of cosmic rays, a value consistent with expectations. Corroborating evidence for these SNe is seen in the 10Be/9Be ratio in ocean sediments, nitrate concentrations in ice cores, and lunar cosmogenic isotope data. Nearby SNe can change comet and asteroid orbits inducing comet showers into the inner solar system and they also may eject dust clouds and shrapnel that can impact Earth. The Younger Dryas impact layer from 13 ka ago shows an unusual chemistry. Radiocarbon analysis of carbon spherules from the YD impact layer at Gainey and various Carolina Bays yields future dates despite their stratigraphy. Charcoal from Chobot and the Carolina Bays date to <6000 yr BP a common characteristic of Paleo-Indian radiocarbon dates at Northern sites. The radiocarbon record shows a sudden increase in global radiocarbon at the time of the YD impact with a signature different from the near Earth SNe. There is no mechanism for the injection of excess radiocarbon into an impact layer unless the impacting object came directly from a recent, nearby SN where 14C is predicted to be produced at 107 times terrestrial abundance. Near Earth SNe (<300 pc) are expected every ~15 ka, and at least two nearby giant stars Betelgeuse (132 pc) and Antares (190 pc) are near the end of their lives and likely to go SN in the near future. ID# PP31D-1387 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South)Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM Geomorphology Of Possible Younger Dryas Boundary Impact Structure M. E. Davias1; J. L. Gilbride2 1. None, Stamford, CT, USA. 2. North Carolina State University, Raleigh, NC, USA. Solicited Abstract In a previous AGU submission (AGU 2006 T41A-03) and its referenced web-based documentation (perigeezero.org), we proposed that extraterrestrial impacts were responsible for cooling at the Younger Dryas boundary, North American megafaunal extinctions, and collapse of Native American culture. Recent work by others (Firestone, et al) has added significant support to such a hypothesis. A challenging aspect of the hypothesis involves the lack of an identifiable impact structure. As a plausible solution, our Perigee:Zero (P:Z) conjecture implicates the decaying orbits of earth-captured cometary bodies. Such impact events occur when the perigee of the orbit reaches the earth's surface - in effect Perigee = Zero. Given the relatively low velocities involved, the shallow angle of incidence and the hydrated nature of the impactors, the geological signature of proposed P:Z impact structures are uncharacteristic of cosmic impact structures. Additionally, the conjecture suggests that terrestrial material ejected from such an event would be distributed in a stylized manner. Our analysis correlates numerous proposed P:Z ejecta material emplacements - including the Carolina bays and the Goldsboro Ridge - to a Perigee: Zero impact event that struck the Wisconsin-era ice shield at ~43?N, ~87?W. The proposed scouring action of the event is seen producing the current-day southern half of Lake Michigan. http://perigeezero.org/treatise/Proof_sets/lake_michigan/ ID# PP31D-1388 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South)Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM Positive anomaly in platinum group elements and the presence of shocked diamonds: Two question marks at the Younger Dryas P. F. Claeys1; D. Schryvers2; H. Tian2; S. Goderis1, 3 1. Earth System Science, Vrije Universiteit Brussel, Brussels, Belgium. 2. EMAT, Universiteit Antwerpen, Antwerpen, Belgium. 3. Dept. of Analytical Chemistry , Ghent University, Ghent, Belgium. Recently, a large size impact was proposed as the cause of the global changes taking place at the Younger Dryas (YD) some 12,9 kyr ago. Impact evidence was reported in a C-rich black layer of broad geographic distribution. The impact markers consist of a large anomaly in the concentration of platinum group elements (PGE) and the presence of nanodiamonds, in particular lonsdaleite, which hexagonal structure is believed to be of shock origin. The impact is proposed to have occurred on the North American continent. A crater large enough (> 150 km) to induce a mass extinction some ~12.9 ka ago, formed in a geologically well-known area, is unlikely to have escaped detection. Therefore, an alternative hypothesis is that a cometary projectile exploded fully within the atmosphere spreading PGE and shock formed diamonds, without any target rock contribution, all around the Northern hemisphere. So far, PGE measurements failed to reproduce the elevated (> ppb) concentrations reported previously at Younger Dryas sites containing the black layer. In Lommel (Belgium) where the first study detected up to 117 ppb Ir, the Ir concentration is below the detection limit of the method (NiS fire assay + ICP-MS) used (0.06 ppb). At all sites analyzed the PGE pattern is typical of that of the continental crust. In several craters (Popigai, Ries) or at the KT boundary nanodiamonds have been reported associated with shocked materials. Several types of carbon components occur in the black layer of the Lommel section such as i) flakes reaching up to 1 ?m, ii) nano particles of cubic diamond, 1 to 10 nm in size and iii) larger carbon onion-ring structures, which core can act as a nanoscopic pressure cell leading to the formation of nanodiamond by self- compression. The Lommel nanodiamonds present in the Younger Dryas layer do resemble nanodiamonds found in carbon spherules of unknown origin previously reported in top soil from several localities in Belgium and Germany. The C stable isotopic signature measured in the C-rich black layer is clearly produced by organic matter of terrestrial origin (-29?). ID# PP31D-1389 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South)Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM The platinum group metals in Younger Dryas Horizons are terrestrial Y. Wu1; E. Wikes1; J. Kennett2; A. West3; M. Sharma1 1. Dept of Earth Sciences, Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA. 2. Department of Earth Sciences, University of California, Santa Barbara, CA, USA. 3. GeoScience Consulting, Dewey, AZ, USA. The Younger Dryas (YD) event, which began 12,900 years ago, was a period of abrupt and rapid cooling in the Northern Hemisphere whose primary cause remains unclear. The prevalent postulated mechanism is a temporary shutdown of the thermohaline circulation following the breakup of an ice dam in North America. Firestone et al. (2007) proposed that the cooling was triggered by multiple cometary airbursts and/or impacts that engendered enormous environmental changes and disrupted the thermohaline circulation. The evidence in support for this hypothesis is a black layer in North America and in Europe marking the YD boundary containing charcoal, soot, carbon spherules and glass-like carbon suggesting extensive and intense forest fires. This layer is also enriched in magnetic grains high in iridium, magnetic microspherules, fullerenes containing extraterrestrial He-3, and nanodiamonds. Whereas the nanodiamonds could be produced in an impact or arrive with the impactor, the cometary burst/impact hypothesis remains highly controversial as the YD horizon lacks important impact markers such as craters, breccias, tektites and shocked minerals. Firestone et al. (2007) contend that bulk of Ir found at the YD boundary is associated with magnetic grains. The key issue is whether this Ir is meteorite derived. We used Ir and Os concentrations and Os isotopes to investigate the provenance of the platinum group metals in the YD horizon. The bulk sediment samples from a number of North American YD sites (Blackwater Draw, Murray Springs, Gainey, Sheriden Cave, and Myrtle Beach) and a site in Europe (Lommel) do not show any traces of meteorite derived Os and Ir. The [Os] = 2 to 45 pg/g in these sediments and the 187Os/188Os ratios are similar to the upper continental crustal values (~1.3), much higher than those in meteorites (0.13). Higher [Os] is observed in Blackwater Draw (= 194 pg/g). However, the Os/Ir ratio in Blackwater Draw is 5 (not 1 as expected for a meteorite) and 187Os/188Os ratio = 1.35, which remains constant above and below the YD horizon. Kennett et al. (2009) report 200 ppb of nanodiamonds and about 4 ppb of Ir in bulk sediments from Murray Springs. Since chondritic meteorites contain approximately 400 ppm of presolar nanodiamonds and about 500 ppb of osmium, simple mixing requires that the YD horizon at Murray Springs should contain about 250 pg/g of Os. However, the observed Os concentration of YD horizon at Murray Springs is only 45 pg/g and the 187Os/188Os ratio is 1.66. These observations suggest that if there was an impact that produced the nanodiamonds and dispersed them, it did not provide Os (and Ir) to the Murray Springs and other North American sites. We have so far separated and analyzed magnetic grains from Gainey and Lommel and find their [Os] and 187Os/188Os ratios consistent with a terrestrial origin. The [Os] of microspherules analyzed so far are too low to be derived from meteorites. Our analyses therefore do not support an extraterrestrial origin of the platinum metals in YD horizons from North America and Europe. ID# PP31D-1390 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South)Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM Field-Analytical approach of land-sea records for elucidating the Younger Dryas Boundary syndrome T. Ge1; M. M. COURTY2; F. Guichard3 1. Geoarcheology, INRAP, Pessac, France. 2. Prehistory -IPHES-ICREA, CNRS-MNHN, Tarragona, Spain. 3. Paleoocenography, CNRS-CEA UVSQ, Gif-sur-Yvette, France. Linking lonsdaleite crystals, carbon spherules and diamond polymorphs from the North American dark layers at 12.9 cal yr B.P. to a cosmic event has questioned the nature and timing of the related impact processes. A global signal should trace the invoked airshocks and/or surface impacts from a swarm of comets or carbonaceous chondrites. Here we report on the contextual analytical study of debris fall events from three reference sequences of the Younger Dyras period (11-13 ka cal BP) : (1) sand dune fields along the French Atlantic coast at the Audenge site; (2) A 10 m record of detrital/bioorganic accumulation in the southern basin of the Caspian Sea with regular sedimentation rate (0.1 to 3 mm per year) from 14 to 2-ka BP cal; (3) the Paijan sequence (Peruvian coastal desert) offering fossiliferous fluvial layers with the last large mammals and aquatic fauna at 13 ka BP sealed by abiotic sand dunes. The three sequences display one remarkable layer of exogenous air-transported microdebris that is part of a complex time series of recurrent fine dust/wildfire events. The sharp debris-rich microfacies and its association to ashes derived from calcination of the local vegetation suggest instantaneous deposition synchronous to a high intensity wildfire. The debris assemblage comprises microtektite-like glassy spherules, partly devitrified glass shards, unmelted to partly melted sedimentary and igneous clasts, terrestrial native metals, and carbonaceous components. The later occur as grape-clustered polymers, vitrified graphitic carbon, amorphous carbon spherules with a honeycomb pattern, and green carbon fibres with recrystallized quartz and metal blebs. Evidence for high temperature formation from a heterogeneous melt with solid debris and volatile components derived from carbonaceous precursors supports an impact origin from an ejecta plume. The association of debris deposition to total firing would trace a high energy airburst with surface effects of the fireball. In contrast, microfacies and debris composition of the recurrent fine dust/wildfire events would trace a series of a low energy airburst. Their record is expressed in the Audenge sequence by a series of water-laid laminae of charred pine residues formed of carbonaceous spherules wrapped by carbonaceous polymers that includes lonsdaleite crystals as detected by high resolution in situ micro-Raman analysis. This association suggests recurrent flash forest wildfires ignited by hot spray of carbon-rich debris, followed by heavy snow falls. The record from the Peruvian desert suggests a possible linkage between the repeated debris fall/wildfires during the Younger Dryas and the following irreversible aridity along the Peruvian cost. In contrast the Caspian record of the Younger Dryas period indicates more gradual changes, possibly buffered by the hydrological functioning of the Caspian sea in a complex region. The Audenge context offers the amplified signal needed to understand at local to global scales the spatio-temporal pattern of impact-airburst events. ID# PP31D-1391 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South)Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM Cometary airbursts and atmospheric chemistry: Tunguska and a candidate Younger Dryas event A. Melott1 1. Physics & Astronomy, Univ. of Kansas , Lawrence, KS, USA. We estimate atmospheric chemistry changes from ionization at the 1908 Tunguska airburst event, finding agreement with nitrate enhancement in GISP2H and GISP2 ice cores and noting an unexplained accompanying ammonium spike. We then consider the candidate Younger Dryas comet impact. The estimated NOx production and O3 depletion are large, beyond accurate extrapolation. A modest nitrate deposition signal exists in ice core data. The predicted very large impulsive deposition might be visible in higher resolution data. Ammonium has been attributed to biomass burning, and found coincident with nitrate spikes at YD onset in both the GRIP and GISP2 ice cores. A similar result is well-resolved in Tunguska ice core data, but the Tunguska forest fire was far too small to account for this. Direct input of ammonia from a comet into the atmosphere is consistent with the spike for the candidate YD object, but also inadequate for Tunguska. An analog of the Haber process with hydrogen contributed by the cometary or surface water, atmospheric nitrogen, high temperatures, pressures, and the possible presence of catalytic iron from a comet could in principle divert a variable fraction of the reaction products to ammonia, accounting for ice core data in both events. ID# PP31D-1392 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South)Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM Nanodiamonds and Carbon Spherules from Tunguska, the K/T Boundary, and the Younger Dryas Boundary Layer J. H. Wittke1; T. E. Bunch1; A. West2; J. Kennett3; D. J. Kennett4; G. A. Howard5 1. Dept. of Geology, Northern Arizona Univ., Flagstaff, AZ, USA. 2. GeoScience Consulting, Dewey, AZ, USA. 3. Dept. of Earth Science and Marine Science Institute, Univ. of California, Santa Barbara, CA, USA. 4. Dept. of Anthropology, Univ. of Oregon, Eugene, OR, USA. 5. Restoration Systems, LLC, Raleigh, NC, USA. More than a dozen markers, including nanodiamonds (NDs) and carbon spherules (CS), occur in a sedimentary layer marking the onset of the Younger Dryas (YD) cooling episode at ~12.9 ka. This boundary layer, called the YDB, has been found at nearly forty locations across North America, Europe, and Asia, although not all markers are present at any given site. Firestone et al. (2007) and Kennett et al. (2008, 2009) proposed that these markers resulted from a cosmic impact/airburst and impact-related biomass burning. Here we report features common to the YDB event, the Cretaceous-Tertiary (K/T) impact, and the Tunguska airburst of 1908. In sediments attributed to each event, we and other researchers have recovered NDs either inside or closely associated with CS, which appear to be the high-temperature by-products of biomass burning. CS range in diameter from about 500 nanometers to 4 millimeters with a mean of ~100 microns, and they typically contain NDs, including lonsdaleite (hexagonal diamonds), in the interior matrix and in the crust. To date, CS and NDs have been found in the K/T layer in the United States, Spain, and New Zealand. Similarly, CS and NDs have been found in the YDB layer in the United States, Canada, United Kingdom, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, and France. Thus far, every site examined contains NDs and/or CS in the K/T and YDB layers; conversely, we have yet to detect CS associated with NDs in any non-YDB sediments tested. Five allotropes of NDs have been identified in association with CS: cubic diamonds, lonsdaleite, n-diamonds, p-diamonds, and i-carbon, which are differentiated by slight variations in their crystalline structure. All allotropes have been identified using scanning electron microscopy (SEM), high-resolution electron microscopy (HREM), and transmission electron microscopy (TEM) with confirmation by selected area diffraction (SAED). Lonsdaleite is found on Earth only in three instances: (1) in the laboratory, where it is produced by shock synthesis under a high-temperature-high-pressure regime (~1000?C to 1700?C at 15 GPa) or by carbon vapor deposition (CVD) under a very-high-temperature-low-pressure regime (~13,000?C at 300 Torr) (Maruyama et al., 1993); (2) after arrival on Earth inside extraterrestrial material; and (3) as a result of high-temperature cosmic impact/airbursts. Lonsdaleite associated with CS has been found in sediments only at the K/T, the YDB, and Tunguska, consistent with the hypothesis that all three events have cosmic origins, although the nature of the impactors may have been different. ID# PP31D-1393 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South)Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM Wildfires, Soot and Fullerenes in the 12,900 ka Younger Dryas boundary layer in North America L. Becker1; R. J. Poreda2; J. Kennett3; D. J. Kennett4; J. M. Erlandson5; A. West6 1. Physics and Astronomy, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD, USA. 2. Dept. of Earth and Environmental Sciences, Rochester University, Rochester , NY, USA. 3. Dept. Earth Science, University of Santa Barbara, Santa Barbara, CA, USA. 4. Dept. of Anthropology, University of Oregon, Eugene, OR, USA. 5. Dept. of Anthropology and Museum of Natural and Cultural History, University of Oregon, Eugene, OR, USA. 6. GeoScience Consulting, Dewey, AZ, USA. The debate surrounding the late Pleistocene megafaunal extinctions in North America and the possible cause being related to an impact (asteroid or cometary) event at the Younger Dryas boundary (YDB) some ~12,900 ka, has recently been renewed with the discovery of nanodiamonds (lonsdaleite) and other diamond polymorphs in several YDB locations worldwide(1). While the discovery of lonsdaleite is certainly exciting, it is unclear whether or not this diamond allotrope would form during shock processes diagnostic of an impact event. Moreover, there are combustion related processes (e.g. CVD and anoxic combustion) that can lead to the production of nanodiamonds. Nevertheless, the presence of nanodiamonds coupled to other impact tracers (e.g. magnetic spherules, iridium) in the YDB layer suggests that these nanodiamonds may be related to an impact event. In previous studies of some North American YDB sitesm we searched for fullerenes with trapped noble gases. Fullerenes (C60 to C200) from Clovis age sites at Murray Springs, AZ, Blackwater Draw, NM and Daisy Cave, San Miguel Channel Island, contain trapped helium and argon with isotope ratios similar to the planetary component of carbonaceous chondrites, indicative of their formation in an extraterrestrial environment. In addition, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) were also identified in the same layer along with charcoal and soot that are attributed to widespread wildfires associated with the impact event. In an effort to better understand the true nature of the nanodiamonds, we have collected some charcoal spherules related to a younger impact crater and some modern day wildfires. The results of all of these studies will be presented. ID# PP31D-1394 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South)Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM Cold Climate Related Structural Sinks Accommodate Unusual Soil Constituents, Pinelands National Reserve, New Jersey, USA. M. Demitroff1; M. A. LeCompte3; B. N. Rock2 1. Department of Geography, University of Delaware, Newark, DE, USA. 2. Center of Excellence in Remote Sensing Education and Research , Elizabeth City State University, Elizabeth City, NC, USA. 3. Institute for the Study of Earth, Oceans, and Space, University of New Hampshire, Durham, NH, USA. Firestone and others proposed an extraterrestrial (ET) impact upon the Laurentide Ice Sheet 12,900 years ago led to abrupt climate change and left behind a distinct suite of microscopic soil markers. If so, then soil memory of such an extreme event should be apparent across a wide swath of ice-marginal North America. New Jersey?s Pine Barrens has a remarkably well-preserved record of Late Pleistocene soil structures that provide snapshots of rigorous climatic episodes, the youngest of which are potential reservoirs for ET markers. Cryogenic macrostructures are fissures related to episodic temperature and moisture extremes providing excellent chronostratigraphic control - unlike soil horizons that are often affected by denudation and pedogenic modification. Three distinct ground structures were sampled for evidence of infill-related ET markers: 1) two ground (soil) wedges (early Holocene?); 2) a younger sand-wedge cast (late-Wisconsinan?); and 3) an older sand-wedge cast (early-Wisconsinan?). Attendant host sediment and capping colluvium coversand samples were also collected for evidence of ET markers to detect potential source sinks. Our pedocomplex contained elements ranging from Miocene Cohansey Formation basement sands to early-Holocene fluvioeolian coversands. Scanning electron microscopy (SEM), transmission electron microscopy (TEM), and energy dispersive x-ray analysis (EDX) are being used to characterize soil constituents of interest. Carbon and luminescence dating are underway to provide geomorphic events timing associated with specific soil constituent trap formation. Fly ash collected from a coal-fired electrical plant 13-km distant was also examined. Several soil constituents atypical to the local petrology as currently understood were found. Infill from two ground (soil) wedges contained ~100,000 to ~500,000 magnetic spherules/kg, 25 to 50 translucent amber-colored spherules/kg, 250 to 500 carbon spherules/kg, charcoal, and pieces of glass-like carbon. Some of these carbon spherules (~1 in 20) contained n-diamond allotrope nanodiamonds, and averaged between 2 and 60 nanometers across. Magnetic spherules were found bound within a caramel colored brittle matrix and averaged about 10 to 30 microns across, and on occasion formed raspberry-like clusters. The fly ash contained no detectable diamonds, although it did contain a few magnetic spherules. Testing of other samples is in progress. ID# PP31D-1395 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South)Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM Rockyhock and Kimbel Carolina Bays: Extraterrestrial Impact or Terrestrial Genesis? M. A. LeCompte1; B. D. Branch1; L. Barnes2; C. Hall1 1. Mathematics and Computer Science, Elizabeth City State University, Elizabeth City , NC, USA. 2. Mathematics and Computer Science, Mississippi Valley State University, Itta Bena, MS, USA. Evidence for the harsh climate prevalent during the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) are seen in topographical features visiblesouth of the ice sheet margin in the uplands and coastal regions of the southeastern United States. Among the features attributed to ice age climate are numerous elliptical, shallow depressions called collectively Carolina Bays, hypothesized to have been formed by ?blow outs? of loose sediment by the strong, sustained winds and arid, cold climate characteristic of glacial epochs (Raisz, 1934, Johnson, 1942 and Kaczorowski, 1977). This view eclipsed the 1933 proposition by Melton and Schriever, and expanded by Prouty (1934, 1953), that extraterrestrial debris produced by an aerial meteorite or comet explosion in the vicinity of the Great Lakes during the late Pleistocene formed the bays. 12,900 years ago, post-LGM warming was interrupted by a return to a glacial climate that persisted for over 1,000 years. The events precipitating the cooling, known as the Younger Dryas (YD), are the subject of debate. Recently Firestone et. al. (2007) proposed that an impact in the Laurentide ice sheet by a fragmented comet might have simultaneously initiated the YD and formed the Carolina Bays. Carbon 14 dating and pollen analysis of core samples taken from Rockyhock Bay, in Chowan County, NC, by Whitehead (1980) indicate a pre-YD genesis. However, a number of the bays have been found to contain materiel associated with extraterrestrial impacts including carbon and magnetic spherules, glass-like carbon, charcoal and nanodiamonds (Firestone, et. al. 2007). The discoveries reinvigorated the debate over the bay?s origins. Were the bays created by an impact or were they merely receptacles for impact materiel injected into the environment. If created before the YD, the bays would have experienced episodic post-formation modification due to cold, dry, windy periods alternating with warm, moist and calmer climatic conditions. Carolina Bays would thus episodically fill with wind-blown or water-borne sediment or water. Some evidence of bay history should be evident in their stratigraphy. Rockyhock Bay?s proximity to ECSU motivated the attempt to establish a broad chrono-stratigraphic context to reveal whether Whitehead?s inferred bay-structure and age vs. depth correlation were mischaracterized. Core samples were taken from bay rim and center and a Ground Penetrating RADAR (GPR) survey was performed. Results will be compared with the cited earlier published results. Results will be compared to a similar survey performed for Kimbel Bay, near Fayetteville, NC, whose hydrologic history seems different than that of Rockyhock Bay. ID# PP31D-1396 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South)Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM An Independent Evaluation of the Younger Dryas Extraterrestrial Impact Hypothesis T. A. Surovell1; V. T. Holliday2 1. Department of Anthropology, University of Wyoming, Laramie, WY, USA. 2. Departments of Anthropology and Geosciences, University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ, USA. Based on elevated concentrations of a set of impact markers at the onset of the Younger Dryas stadial from sedimentary contexts across North America, Firestone, Kennett, West, and others have argued that 12.9 ka, the Earth experienced an impact by an extraterrestrial body, an event that had devastating ecological consequences for humans, plants, and animals in the New World. In this paper, we report the results of an independent analysis of magnetic minerals and microspherules from seven sites of similar age including two previously examined by Firestone et al. We were unable to reproduce any results of the Firestone et al. study and find no support for Younger Dryas extraterrestrial impact. ID# PP31D-1397 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South)Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM Evidence for Widespread Biomass-Burning at the Younger Dryas Boundary at 12.9 ka J. Kennett1; P. A. Mayewski2; A. West3; T. E. Bunch4; T. W. Stafford5; W. S. Wolbach6 1. Dept. of Earth Science and Marine Science Institute, Univ. of California, Santa Barbara, CA, USA. 2. Climate Change Institute, Univ. of Maine, Orono, ME, USA. 3. GeoScience Consulting, Dewey, AZ, USA. 4. Dept. of Geology, Northern Arizona Univ., Flagstaff, AZ, USA. 5. Stafford Research, Inc., Lafayette, CO, USA. 6. Dept. of Chemistry, DePaul Univ., Chicago, IL, USA. A diverse assemblage of nanodiamonds found in the Younger Dryas boundary layer (YDB) across North America is consistent with a high-temperature cosmic event at 12.9 ka. Abundance peaks in biomass-burning proxies, such as charcoal, grape-cluster soot, carbon spherules, and glass-like carbon suggest that a major, cross-continental episode of biomass-burning occurred simultaneously at the onset of the Younger Dryas (YD) cooling episode. These peaks appear contemporaneous with Greenland ice cores records that exhibit spikes in ammonium, nitrate, formate, and oxalate, which also are interpreted to represent episodes of biomass-burning. At the YD onset, the ammonium peaks in the GISP2 and GRIP ice cores are the largest such peaks reported, suggesting that the largest wildfires within the last 130 kyrs occurred at ~12.9 ka. CHARCOAL: Recently, Marlon et al. (2009) reported analyzing sediment cores from 35 lakes widely distributed across North America. In ~90% of their cores (32 of 35), they found charcoal peaks dating to 12.9 ka ?250 yrs, and they note a particularly steep increase in charcoal influx beginning at 13.2 ka. This charcoal reached an abundance peak at ~12.9 ka, and they interpreted it as representing ?the largest and most rapid change in biomass burning during deglaciation. Burning was widespread but not continent wide.? However, they concluded that this peak is not representative of YDB fires apparently because it began at 13.2 ka and was not within ?50 yrs of 12.9 ka. We have reanalyzed Marlon?s data and determined that multiple 14C dating errors may have led them to reach that conclusion. Their lake records contain numerous cumulative dating uncertainties: (1) they utilized multiple, incompatible 14C calibration curves, thereby introducing age uncertainties of ?175 to ?650 yrs; (2) average chronological sample resolution was about ?180 yrs, much greater than ?50 yrs; (3) the radiocarbon dates used had a mean error of ?132 yrs; (4) for the 14C dates closest in age to 12.9 ka, the mean interval was >1100 yrs younger or older. Collectively, these errors make it impossible to reach conclusions about the timing of a burning episode at 12.9 ka with a certainty of ?50 yrs. Instead, we argue that the widespread wildfires they reported more likely correspond to the YD onset. Also, we analyzed cores from 39 additional lakes broadly distributed across North America and found that they exhibit a distinct collective charcoal peak at 12.9 ka within the limits of 14C uncertainty. We also detected above-background concentrations of charcoal in 23 of 25 non-lacustrine continental sections tested that date to ~12.9 ka. The existence of widespread, though not ubiquitous, charcoal plausibly supports a major cross-continental biomass-burning episode at 12.9 ka. The K/T impact layer is the only other known horizon that contains peaks in charcoal, soot, CS, and nanodiamonds, further suggesting a cosmic connection for the YDB layer. ID# PP31D-1398 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South)Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM Climatic Control of Biomass Burning During the Last Glacial-Interglacial Transition J. R. Marlon1; P. J. Bartlein1; A. Daniau2; S. P. Harrison2 1. Geography, University of Oregon, Eugene, OR, USA. 2. School of Geographical Sciences, University of Bristol, Bristol, UK BS8 1SS, United Kingdom. Sedimentary charcoal and pollen records were used to test the hypothesis that an extraterrestrial impact at the beginning of the Younger Dryas Chonozone (YDC, 12.9 to 11.7 ka) caused widespread biomass burning in North America. Comet-theory proponents argue that continental-scale wildfires were triggered by the ET impact and are evidenced by carbon spherules, charcoal and soot found at archaeological sites across the continent. We examined charcoal accumulation rates and pollen-inferred vegetation changes in lake-sediment records during the 5000-year interval surrounding the YDC to look for evidence of continental-scale burning. None of the study sites used in the analysis are associated with archaeological sites and many are in remote, high-elevation locations where impacts from human-caused burning was probably minimal. All the records show evidence of sporadic fires throughout the late-glacial period, and together show a trend of increasing biomass burning until the beginning of the YDC, little increase during, and then increasing biomass burning at the end of the YDC. Three of fifteen of the highest-resolution records (i.e. < 50 years per sample), in which individual fire episodes are registered as charcoal peaks, show large fires around the beginning of the YDC, but the strongest evidence for widespread, synchronous fire activity during any 100-yr interval occurs at 11.7 ka, the end of the YDC. Among the potential controls of biomass burning, climate emerges as the most parsimonious explanation for the abrupt increase in biomass burning accompanying the abrupt warming at the end of the YDC through the influence of temperature on biomass productivity (and hence fuels), and fire-promoting environmental conditions. The association between increased biomass burning and the abrupt warming at the end of the YDC is replicated in the response of a composite global biomass burning record to the 20 Greenland Interstadial events during the past 80,000 years. In conclusion, we find no evidence for widespread or synchronous wildfires in North America at the beginning of the YDC. Rather, there is strong evidence that abrupt warming leads to high fire activity at continental and larger scales. ID# PP31D-1399 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South)Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM Fire regimes during the last glacial A. Daniau1; S. P. Harrison1; P. J. Bartlein2 1. School of Geographical Sciences, University of Bristol, Bristol, United Kingdom. 2. Department of Geography, University of Oregon, Eugene, OR, USA. Fire regimes during the last glacial A.-L. Daniau (1), S.P. Harrison (1) and P.J. Bartlein (2) (1) School of Geographical Sciences, University of Bristol, Bristol, BS8 1SS, UK (2) Department of Geography, University of Oregon, Eugene, OR 97403, USA Sedimentary charcoal records document changes in fire regime. We have identified 67 sites which have records for some part of the last glacial and have used the 30 of these sites with better-than millennial-resolution to analyse changes in global fire regimes. Fire was consistently lower during the glacial than during the Eemian and Holocene. Within the glacial, Marine Isotope Stage (MIS) 3 is characterised globally by more fire than MIS 2. The signal for MIS 4 is less clear: there is more fire in the northern hemisphere and less fire in the southern hemisphere than during MIS 2 and 3. The records, most particularly records from the northern extratropics, show millennial-scale variability in fire regimes corresponding to the rapid climate changes associated with Dansgaard-Oeschger (D-O) cycles. Most of the D-O cycles during the last glacial and all of the Heinrich Stadials are apparent in the composite global record of the high-resolution sites: fire increases during D-O warming events and decreases during intervals of cooling. Our analyses show that fire regimes show a lagged response to rapid climate changes of ca 100-200 years in the case of D-O warming events, ca 0-100 years in the case of D-O cooling events and ca 200 years in the case of Heinrich Stadials. The strong climatic variability experienced during the glacial resulted in important changes in fire regimes even though the base level of biomass burning was less than today. From tett at rogers.com Sat Nov 7 12:05:16 2009 From: tett at rogers.com (tett) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 12:05:16 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] buzz coulee availability In-Reply-To: <990723.28703.qm@web57805.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <990723.28703.qm@web57805.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AF5A8CC.7050102@rogers.com> Steve, If you had some patients you too could have some Buzzard Coulee. It is just about a 6 month wait and in the grand scheme of things this is not that long. I have 7 stones which will clear in early January and all going to Europenas. There are also many more that will clear early next year from other Candians. All with papers that will make them more valuable to the person who gets them. There is more available and I will gladly help you acquire some but it will take time. Last I checked cost was about $15/gm but it may have gone up. Buzzard Coulee is a beautiful meteorite and most pieces show little to no weathering. I have a broken end piece with a large exposed face that sat in the open for about 6 months and you would not believe how fresh it looks. Beautiful brecciation and large chondrules. Patients Steve. You will find that your meteorite collecting will be much more enjoyable if you slow down and take your time. Enjoy the wonderful stones you have now and slowly grow your collection with pieces that are worth having and keeping. Cheers! tett steve arnold wrote: > Good morning list.TGIF!!! Hey I was wondering if there are any USA collecters that have received more than 1 piece of buzz coulee,with those export papers,which I disdain,have any forsale?6 months to a year to wait for those things have made it just not worth collecting that fall.From the pieces I've seen it is a great stoney fall to have.But there is always LEGAL BS to have to wade thru.Please off list if you have any if not,hey I tried.Have a great day and weekend all. > Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > From info at niger-meteorite-recon.de Sat Nov 7 12:08:04 2009 From: info at niger-meteorite-recon.de (Svend Buhl) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 18:08:04 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 6, 2009 References: <2762.80439.qm@web113014.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Great images Graham, particularly of the 21 kg mass. Referring to that account Michael kindly provided a link to, I really miss a photo of Mr. Zhang Fu Gen transporting the two heavenly rocks on his bycicle. Thanks for sharing. Svend www.meteorite-recon.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Johnson" To: Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 10:19 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 6,2009 > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_6_2009.html > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From stalderli at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 12:29:31 2009 From: stalderli at gmail.com (Thomas Gmail) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 18:29:31 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] test Message-ID: <4AF5AE7B.60800@gmail.com> test From ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 7 12:37:33 2009 From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com (ensoramanda at ntlworld.com) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 17:37:33 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] BBC Meteorite Hunt and Meteorite Men In-Reply-To: <80659e1a0911061112q1d4b470ek1e06d526ca665fcf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091107173733.1Y3YZ.371322.root@web05-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Hi Ruben, Excellent feature Ruben...I had missed that...thanks for the link. Perhaps we can meet on a hunt someday, as we discussed at one of the Tucson partys. Looking forward to Geoff and Steve's epics when they're released too...perhaps at Tucson....heading there again this time. Graham, Nr Barwell, UK ---- Ruben Garcia wrote: > Hi Geoff, Steve and all, > > Congratulations once again to Geoff and Steve on the first ever > Meteorite related series! I hope that everyone realizes just how great > this will be for meteorite collecting (in my opinion) and what an > amazing feat getting a TV series is. I'll be first in line when the > seven episodes go to DVD. > > For those who can't wait to get their meteorite hunting fix. The BBC > just aired (yesterday) a meteorite hunting program featuring myself > and Laurence Garvie (ASU) as we hunted for meteorites in southern > Arizona. The program took many hours of hunting and condensed it into > 6 minutes of exciting radio. > > The show is now available to listen to on line. > http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006wj9b > > > -- > Ruben Garcia (Mr-Meteorite) > > Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net > Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ > Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 7 12:50:47 2009 From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com (ensoramanda at ntlworld.com) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 17:50:47 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 6, 2009 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20091107175047.U12ZW.371522.root@web05-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Hi Svend, Unfortunately did not get the chance on our action packed tour of China to get any shots of other meteorite collections....not the easiest of places to track them down...but Shanghai Island does have an interesting story. Still not got around to doing any more research on the Taza 'artifact' although it always cases a stir when exhibited. Now that piece would have an interesting story to tell if the dating of it's fall and use as a tool could be confirmed. Did you ever track down anything else about the actual finder which you mentioned you had a record have? ---- Svend Buhl wrote: > > Great images Graham, particularly of the 21 kg mass. > > Referring to that account Michael kindly provided a link to, I really miss a > photo of Mr. Zhang Fu Gen transporting the two heavenly rocks on his > bycicle. > > Thanks for sharing. > > Svend > > > > > www.meteorite-recon.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Johnson" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 10:19 PM > Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November > 6,2009 > > > > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_6_2009.html > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From moritzkarl at t-online.de Sat Nov 7 12:35:14 2009 From: moritzkarl at t-online.de (Moritz Karl) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 18:35:14 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: ebay auctions ending in 1 day Message-ID: <000101ca5fd0$aa07bab0$fe173010$@de> Sorry if this posts twice. Dear List members, I have 10 ebay auctions ending tomorrow: - 7.63 gram slice Bassikounou - 14.63 gram slice Cape York which is extremely thin - huge surface area - 5.19 gram chergach slice - 0.26 gram Dar al Gani 400 lunar partslice - 7.64 gram Dhofar 007 polished eucrite partslice - 1.87 gram etched fukang pallasite partslice - 16.77 gram mundrabilla etched partslice with troilite inclusions - 2.57 gram etched endpiece of NWA 4024 - a rare winonaite - 3.01 gram partslice of NWA 5515 - nice ck4 - 10.01 gram polished slice of a pretty CO3 - nwa 5794 See them all here: http://stores.ebay.com/mos-meteorites or through my website: http://www.m3t3orites.com If you have any questions please let me know. Thank you for looking and good luck to anyone bidding. Thank you for your time. Enjoy your weekend. Regards Moritz Karl Germany Visit mo's meteorites at http://www.m3t3orites.com From freequarks at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 14:03:08 2009 From: freequarks at gmail.com (Dark Matter) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 12:03:08 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 6, 2009 In-Reply-To: <2762.80439.qm@web113014.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <2762.80439.qm@web113014.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <822da19a0911071103t7a84ddfse40abe5bc2d7782f@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for the wonderful pics. The Changxing fall is one near and dear to my heart. I secured a piece of this "find" for my collection only to realize after trimming a few thin slices off of it, that it was, in fact, a fall and I would not have let it touch a saw blade for that silly reason alone. The danger illustrated here is when one source is based on another, based on another. It was the second edition of Meteorites A to Z that alerted me to the situation with Changxing when its entry footnoted the article also referenced in the RFS picture caption. I mentioned this change in an Accretion Desk article I wrote back in March of 2005 about the concept I call Find2Fall. Here's the link: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/March/Accretion_Desk.htm Changxing is mentioned at the end of the article. Best, Martin On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Michael Johnson wrote: > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_6_2009.html > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From saharagems at yahoo.com Sat Nov 7 14:04:56 2009 From: saharagems at yahoo.com (Stalder Thomas) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 11:04:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] test Message-ID: <23316.42001.qm@web44915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Test pls delete From drtanuki at yahoo.com Sat Nov 7 15:14:08 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 12:14:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Update with videos of Japanese Fireball of 6NOV09 Message-ID: <574396.16717.qm@web53105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear List, My news site was updated as well: http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2009/11/japan-meteormeteorite-news-fireball.html There are now videos and other information about the fireball of 2009?11?6? 20:28:59 ?? ??? SEE : http://sonotaco.jp/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2151 Thank you to Dr. Ohtsuka, Katsuhito for the link and to SonotaCo Network JAPAN for their fine research!!! This is the same fireball that I witnessed and had reported to the list earlier in "Large Fireball Over Sayama, Saitama, Japan Area 6NOV09". Hope that you enjoy the excellent videos and additional information kindly provided by the Sonota Corp. Network, Japan. Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo From mccartney at blackbearddata.com Sat Nov 7 16:09:19 2009 From: mccartney at blackbearddata.com (McCartney Taylor) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 15:09:19 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Request for Nininger letter on Newport Message-ID: <48e6d631$7dd1ae38$267e176b$@com> If anyone has a collection of Nininger letters, I'm requesting a search for the one regarding the Newport meteorite. Just after the Paragould fall, the media frenzy alerted some farmer to check the iron rock he plowed up. The farmer contacted Nininger, I suspect, via mail. I've been to Newport dozens of times on social visits, and have tried to find clues where this damn this is. The old folks at the retirement home only remember one was found. I'm going to be stuck in Newport again over Christmas, and desperately want a lead that I can start researching. After 8 years, I'm at a deadend on this. -mt From spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 7 16:31:59 2009 From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com (Melanie Matthews) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 13:31:59 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] buzz coulee availability In-Reply-To: <4AF5A8CC.7050102@rogers.com> References: <990723.28703.qm@web57805.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AF5A8CC.7050102 at rogers.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 > I have a broken end piece with a large exposed face that > sat in the open for about 6 months and you would not believe how fresh > it looks. Beautiful brecciation and large chondrules. Do you live in a dry climate?=20 Cheers=20 ----------- Melanie IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what= you're gonna get! ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sat=2C 7 Nov 2009 12:05:16 -0500 > From: tett at rogers.com > To: stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com > CC: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] buzz coulee availability > > Steve=2C > > If you had some patients you too could have some Buzzard Coulee. It is > just about a 6 month wait and in the grand scheme of things this is not > that long. I have 7 stones which will clear in early January and all > going to Europenas. There are also many more that will clear early next > year from other Candians. All with papers that will make them more > valuable to the person who gets them. > > There is more available and I will gladly help you acquire some but it > will take time. Last I checked cost was about $15/gm but it may have > gone up. > > Buzzard Coulee is a beautiful meteorite and most pieces show little to > no weathering. I have a broken end piece with a large exposed face that > sat in the open for about 6 months and you would not believe how fresh > it looks. Beautiful brecciation and large chondrules. > > Patients Steve. You will find that your meteorite collecting will be > much more enjoyable if you slow down and take your time. Enjoy the > wonderful stones you have now and slowly grow your collection with > pieces that are worth having and keeping. > > Cheers! > > tett > > > > steve arnold wrote: >> Good morning list.TGIF!!! Hey I was wondering if there are any USA colle= cters that have received more than 1 piece of buzz coulee=2Cwith those expo= rt papers=2Cwhich I disdain=2Chave any forsale?6 months to a year to wait f= or those things have made it just not worth collecting that fall.From the p= ieces I've seen it is a great stoney fall to have.But there is always LEGAL= BS to have to wade thru.Please off list if you have any if not=2Chey I tri= ed.Have a great day and weekend all. >> Steve R. Arnold=2C Chicago!! >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list =20 _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D9691815= From drtanuki at yahoo.com Sat Nov 7 16:44:48 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 13:44:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Japan fireball In-Reply-To: <1933147425.5492131257628725438.JavaMail.root@sz0101a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <727634.90193.qm@web53111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Mike and List, Thank you Mike for the compliments! From the reports by the Japanese observers it fragmented several times (visible in several of their videos) during flight. It is unlikely that any meteorite survived but still possible. The main body of the fireball was thought to have likely fallen into the Sea of Japan. Best Regards, Dirk...Tokyo --- On Sun, 11/8/09, meteoritehunter at comcast.net wrote: > From: meteoritehunter at comcast.net > Subject: Japan fireball > To: drtanuki at yahoo.com > Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 6:18 AM > #yiv935179166 p > {margin:0;}wonderful > work Dirk, certainly impressive, and not a meteor shower > event! > This one certainly was slow enough to drop meteorites, > but do you think they are in the sea? > See you in Tokyo in one month, would be nice to go on a > hunt in Japan. > Michael Farmer > ? > > Dear List, > My news site was updated as well: http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2009/11/japan-meteormeteorite-news-fireball.html > > > There are now videos and other information about the > fireball of > 2009?11?6? 20:28:59 ?? ??? > > SEE : http://sonotaco.jp/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2151 > > > Thank you to Dr. Ohtsuka, Katsuhito for the link and to > SonotaCo Network JAPAN for their fine research!!! > > This is the same fireball that I witnessed and had reported > to the list earlier in "Large Fireball Over Sayama, > Saitama, Japan Area 6NOV09". > > Hope that you enjoy the excellent videos and additional > information kindly provided by the Sonota Corp. Network, > Japan. > > Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo > > > > From meteorites at online.nl Sat Nov 7 19:10:43 2009 From: meteorites at online.nl (Jan Bartels) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 01:10:43 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] [AD] Worden, Zagami, Oriented Gao and more... Message-ID: Listoids, No add next week since I'm using it now and this is I believe my second one this week so....sorry for those who may get upset.... ....but a few nice ones ending real soon..... Stunning oriented Gao: http://cgi.ebay.com/SUPER-Oriented-Gao-Meteorite-134-grams_W0QQitemZ170401385408QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27acb6cbc0 Oum Dreyga with flowlines: http://cgi.ebay.com/Oum-Dreyga-Meteorite-113gr-Flowlines_W0QQitemZ170401391834QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27acb6e4da NWA 859 "Taza" oriented: http://cgi.ebay.com/NWA-859-TAZA-131-grams-Oriented-Meteorite_W0QQitemZ170401545932QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27acb93ecc Zagami, most famous Martian 5,22 grams !! http://cgi.ebay.com/Zagami-5-22-grams-Martian-meteorite_W0QQitemZ170402630452QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27acc9cb34 New listed...Worden 2,4 gram slice: http://cgi.ebay.com/Worden-Car-Smasher-Meteorite-2-4-gr-slice_W0QQitemZ170404140888QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27ace0d758 Still have a Cape York (495 gr.) slice and a Henbury slice (665 gr.). Offers welcome off list pls. Enjoy, Jan IMCA 9833 From moritzkarl at t-online.de Sat Nov 7 12:19:51 2009 From: moritzkarl at t-online.de (Moritz Karl) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 18:19:51 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: ebay auctions ending tomorrow Message-ID: <000001ca5fce$8452a1b0$8cf7e510$@de> Dear List members, I have 10 ebay auctions ending tomorrow: - 7.63 gram slice Bassikounou - 14.63 gram slice Cape York which is extremely thin - huge surface area - 5.19 gram chergach slice - 0.26 gram Dar al Gani 400 lunar partslice - 7.64 gram Dhofar 007 polished eucrite partslice - 1.87 gram etched fukang pallasite partslice - 16.77 gram mundrabilla etched partslice with troilite inclusions - 2.57 gram etched endpiece of NWA 4024 - a rare winonaite - 3.01 gram partslice of NWA 5515 - nice ck4 - 10.01 gram polished slice of a pretty CO3 - nwa 5794 See them all here: http://stores.ebay.com/mos-meteorites or through my website: http://www.m3t3orites.com If you have any questions please let me know. Thank you for looking and good luck to anyone bidding. Thank you for your time. Enjoy your weekend. Regards Moritz Karl Germany Visit mo's meteorites at http://www.m3t3orites.com From rocksfromspace at yahoo.com Sat Nov 7 22:39:48 2009 From: rocksfromspace at yahoo.com (Michael Johnson) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 19:39:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 8, 2009 Message-ID: <863476.24913.qm@web113013.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_8_2009.html From dave at fallingrocks.com Sat Nov 7 22:46:47 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 22:46:47 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Chondritic assistance... Message-ID: <9DF168CB1CFF476FB892DAC34215805D@meteorroom> Hi All, I have a moderately weathered desert recovery that has been "weeping" from time to time since its recovery a year or so ago. When the moisture has appeared on the exterior, I've wiped it down, soaked it in 99% alcohol, and taken it straight to the oven. But this only seems to prolong the inevitable. Before trying the mixed bag of more alcohol baths, returns to the oven, light sabres, phasers set for stun, ceremonial dances, and the like, it would be great to hear some suggestions from the gang. Thanks in advance! All the best, Dave Dave Gheesling IMCA #5967 www.fallingrocks.com From dave at fallingrocks.com Sat Nov 7 22:48:05 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 22:48:05 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 8, 2009 In-Reply-To: <863476.24913.qm@web113013.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <863476.24913.qm@web113013.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4899F3E1D3CE461B9AE73550F8507970@meteorroom> Another great specimen, Svend, and even better photography...as usual! Dave www.fallingrocks.com -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael Johnson Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 10:40 PM To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 8,2009 http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_8_2009.html ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From meteoritemike at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 22:51:03 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 22:51:03 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD : Freshly Crusted Whole Stones from Recent Falls, and More! Message-ID: Hi Listees and Fellow Collectors :) I have some beautifully-crusted and fresh stony meteorites from a variety of recent falls - some of these are oriented and 100% crusted. All of them come in dessicated Riker boxes with display labels - ready for your cabinet or display shelf. All of these are prime examples of their respective falls, or they wouldn't have been in my private/personal collection cabinet. I'm not a "high roller" collector, so I can't afford BIG stones that are this nice, so I collect the nicest ones I can afford - the offerings below are of high quality. Again - ignore the prices on the website. Met-List members get 25% off of the prices for the specimens below : Bassikounou 4.69 grams, fully 100% crusted in FRESH velvety, pitch-black fusion crust. This is as nice as a small Bassikounou gets. http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Bassikounou-Witnessed-Fall--100-Crusted-Whole-Stone_1065553.html Chergach 6.63 grams, fully-oriented with prominent roll-over lip. 98% fully crusted in FRESH black velvety fusion crust. This is one of the freshest Chergach stones I have ever seen. It must have been collected right after it first hit the dirt. It has one tiny spot on the fusion crust where the unoxidized matrix is exposed. http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Chergach-Meteorite--Oriented-Whole-Stone-w-Rollover-Lip_1065557.html Oum Dreyga 4.53 grams, Oriented and 100% FRESH fusion crust. Just like the two stones above, this one is truly "fresh" - pitch black, matte-velvety crust. This one didn't sit in the desert long before someone scooped it up and protected it from oxidation. http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Oum-Dreyga-Witnessed-Fall-Meteorite--Oriented-Whole-Stone_1065564.html Bensour 2.35 grams - 100% FRESH black crust. This one has a nice rounded organic shape that reminds me of a tiny pea-pod. http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Bensour-Witnessed-Fall-Meteorite--Fresh-Whole-Stone_1065561.html FINDS : (don't forget, you get 25% off of these prices shown below) Gold Basin (with Aerolite label and Kriegh/Monrad provenance) - this one is a "faux-individual". This means it is a nice round fragment that is not jagged - at first glance, it could resemble a small "individual". It's spherical, like a weathered marble. If you want a collectible Gold Basin fragment, this is it. http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Gold-Basin--Arizona-Meteorite--Jim-Kriegh-Personal-Find_1066934.html I also have the following available - Juancheng crusted fragment, Tamdakht crusted fragment, Moldavites, and cheap bulk UNWA lots for outreach or gifts. (small slices, endcuts and fragments). Also available is this nice Canyon Diablo Display Kit - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/0/Canyon-Diablo-Crater-Display-Kit--Famous-Iron-Meteorite_592091.html This set would be perfect as a gift or perhaps as an outreach prop. It has several different samples from the Canyon Diablo site - crater sand, ejecta rim rock, tiny shrapnels, large individual iron, and tiny spheroids from the Nininger collection. (the latter have a copy of the original collection label) US Met-List members can have this kit for $80 shipped! Canadian and Overseas buyers is $100 shipped via USPS Priority International Box. (typically about one week delivery time) BOOKS - Collision Earth, Meteorite & Comet Impacts by Grego - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Collision-Earth--Meteorite-Comet-Impacts-by-Peter-Grego_1055700.html Comets, Creators and Destroyers by Levy - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Comets--Creators-and-Destroyers-by-David-Levy_1069531.html Moldavite, Starborn Stone of Transformation (New Age) - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Moldavite--Starborn-Stone-of-Transformation--Book_1041995.html I have a growing pile of MAPS journal back issues - contact me to make an offer. Lastly, have some nice NWA 869 display slices - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/NWA-869--Heavy-Slice--1004-grams_1019899.html http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126502/NWA-869--Crusted-Endcut--937-grams_1019905.html http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126502/NWA-869--Nice-Slice--464-grams_1019895.html http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126502/NWA-869--Crusted-Endcut--105-grams_1019890.html http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126502/NWA-869--Nice-Thick-Slice--999-grams_1019665.html My website only accepts PayPal, so if you don't want to use PayPal, then contact me directly at - meteoritemike at gmail.com If you use the website, don't forget to use this coupon code at checkout - "metlist" - this will give you a 25% discount on your total order. If you have any problems using the coupon or checkout, contact me via email. Thanks for looking and clear skies! MikeG -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Florida, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com FaceBook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone MySpace - http://www.myspace.com/fine_meteorites_4_sale Twitter - Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone eBay - http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/maypickle .......................................................... From rmforall at comcast.net Sun Nov 8 00:11:09 2009 From: rmforall at comcast.net (Rich Murray) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 22:11:09 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Cometary airbursts and atmospheric chemistry: Tunguska and a candidate Younger Dryas event, Adrian L Melott et al, 2009.10.04 to be in Geology, 13p text: Rich Murray 2009.11.07 In-Reply-To: <443804.116.qm@web36908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <443804.116.qm@web36908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <92AF9C22927146D19F1D443DD9524A98@ownerPC> Cometary airbursts and atmospheric chemistry: Tunguska and a candidate Younger Dryas event, Adrian L Melott et al, 2009.10.04 to be in Geology, 13p text: Rich Murray 2009.11.07 http://cargo.ucsc.edu/coffee/2009/10/04/cometary-airbursts-and-atmospheric-chemistry-tunguska-and-a-candidate-younger-dryas-event-replacement/ Cometary airbursts and atmospheric chemistry: Tunguska and a candidate Younger Dryas event [Replacement] Adrian L. Melott (Kansas), Brian C. Thomas (Washburn), Gisela Dreschhoff (Kansas), Carey K. Johnson (Kansas) ArXiv #: 0907.1067 (PDF, PS, Other) Comments: Accepted for publication in Geology. Numerous minor revisions in wording; no change in conclusions We estimate atmospheric chemistry changes from ionization for the 1908 Tunguska airburst event, finding agreement with nitrate enhancement in GISP2H and GISP2 ice cores, noting an unexplained accompanying ammonium spike. We then consider the candidate cometary impact at the onset of the Younger Dryas (YD). The estimated NOx production and O3 depletion are large, beyond accurate extrapolation, but the ice core peak is lower than predicted, possibly because of insufficient sampling resolution. Ammonium has been attributed to biomass burning, with a coincident nitrate spike found at YD onset in both GRIP and GISP2 ice cores. A similar result is well-resolved in Tunguska ice core data, but that forest fire was far too small to account for this. Direct input of ammonia from a comet into the atmosphere is adequate to explain ice core data at the YD event, but not Tunguska data. An analog of the Haber process with hydrogen contributed by cometary or surface water, atmospheric nitrogen, high temperatures, pressures, and the possible presence of catalytic iron from a comet could in principle produce ammonia, accounting for the peaks in both sets of ice core data. Tags: atmospheric nitrogen, minor revisions, sampling resolution, younger dryas, gisp2 ice http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0907/0907.1067.pdf 13 pages From mccartney at blackbearddata.com Sun Nov 8 00:19:36 2009 From: mccartney at blackbearddata.com (McCartney Taylor) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 23:19:36 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ad: Deport Iron Slices & endcuts Message-ID: <32ab419b$135dffad$19a70816$@com> I've made several slices and endcuts and have them available http://outofabluesky.com/index.php?option=com_jportfolio&cat=5&project=17&It emid=58 20% off anyone from the met-list. All of these are meteorites I recovered in 2006 in Deport. All have been treated for chloride removal in a galvanic electrolytic process similar to the process used for preserving shipwreck iron. From rmforall at comcast.net Sun Nov 8 01:00:58 2009 From: rmforall at comcast.net (Rich Murray) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 23:00:58 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Origin and significance of uprange ray patterns, PH Schultz et al, 2009 2p: Rich Murray 2009.11.07 Message-ID: Origin and significance of uprange ray patterns, PH Schultz et al, 2009 2p: Rich Murray 2009.11.07 http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2009/pdf/2496.pdf 2 pages Introduction: Crater rays radiate from fresh primary craters on the Moon, Mercury, and Mars. On the Moon, they are related to secondary craters [1,2,3], scouring of the surface [2], or deposition of distal deposits [2]. On Mars, they also can be shown to be related to secondary craters (e.g., [4,5]) or blast winds [6,7]. Observations of arcuate uprange rays emanating from the Deep Impact collision have been interpreted as an evolving excavation flow field [8] based on laboratory experiments [9]. Here we reconsider the significance of different types of uprange crater ray patterns and provide a simple analytical approximation in order to infer their significance. Uprange Ray Patterns: Two different crater ray patterns are found on the Moon, Mars, and Mercury: convex (Fig. 1, Fig. 2a) and concave (Fig. 2b). The former has been described as cardioid pattern (heart shaped, e.g., [8,10]), whereas the latter is described here as an arachnid pattern. Rays extending from secondary craters represent extreme case of the arachnid pattern and form a horseshoe (U-shaped) pattern open downrange (e.g., [10]).... Horseshoe rays characterize secondary craters around large primaries (>20 km on the Moon). This pattern reflects an absence of uprange material; instead, tertiary ejecta rays wrap around the lead crater or extend obliquely from a cluster [11]. In addition, there are oblique impacts (uprange and downrange zones of avoidance) with radial rays. These are more typically found on Mercury or at small scales (in the regolith).... Arachnid patterns also have been produced in laboratory experiments for impacts into layered targets, thereby indicating a change in the flow field with depth. More generally, the different ray patterns from oblique impacts reflect the effect of target/projectile impedance contrasts and the ratio of impactor size divided by its speed.... If this interpretation is valid, then arcuate uprange crater rays not only reflect impact angle but also the the projectile-to-crater diameter ratio.... [ some very helpful photos and diagrams ] From leighannedelray at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 02:24:36 2009 From: leighannedelray at gmail.com (Leigh Anne DelRay) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 00:24:36 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Need to get in touch with Jason Phillips. Message-ID: <5e97e2850911072324n533603xb22cd545f83773fe@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, Jason Phillips wrote me an e-mail, but when I write him back it says: """""""Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently: Technical details of permanent failure: Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for further information about the cause of this error. The error that the other server returned was: 550 550 4.2.1 mailbox temporarily disabled""""""""" Does anyone have another e-mail address for him? Thanks, Leigh Anne DelRay From markmurphy at cablerocket.com Sun Nov 8 03:05:39 2009 From: markmurphy at cablerocket.com (Mark Murphy) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 03:05:39 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD:Buzzard Coulee Meteorites For Sale Message-ID: <349288AE-F09A-4D58-AE11-FA678C36064E@cablerocket.com> Hello list, I have been considering selling some Buzzard coulee meteorites. Sizes available 17,28,41,45,101,107 and 257 grams. I have Canadian Export Permit Applications ready to see some ink for those whom are patient. Please contact me off list for info or Photos. Many thanks, Mark Murphy IMCA# 6216 From drtanuki at yahoo.com Sun Nov 8 03:58:32 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 00:58:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Another earlier Fireball from 6NOV09 at 8:05 PM Message-ID: <644267.13790.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Lists, I have just learned that there was an earlier fireball on the same night 6NOV09 at 8:05 with the second one following at 8:28pm. More about the fireball can be read at; http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2009/11/japan-meteormeteorite-news-another.html Please see the Sonota Corp links on my webpage to go to the video and images. Thank you. Dirk Ross...Tokyo From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Sun Nov 8 11:30:05 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 11:30:05 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Sudbury Impact Ended Creation of Banded Iron Formations Message-ID: <20091108113005.T1YQC.878441.imail@eastrmwml44> There is a new paper published in the November 2009 issue of Geology that argues that the Sudbury Impact in Canada ended the creation of Banded Iron Formations during the Precambrian. The paper is Slack, J. F. and W. F. Cannon, 2009, Extraterrestrial demise of banded iron formations 1.85 billion years ago. Geology. vol. 37, no. 11, pp. 1011-1014, doi:10.1130/G30259A.1 http://geology.gsapubs.org/content/37/11/1011.abstract Previous Geological Society of America Meeting abstracts can be found at: http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2009AM/finalprogram/abstract_162145.htm and http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2008AM/finalprogram/abstract_146662.htm Other web pages: Banded iron formation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banded_iron_formation Banded Iron Formation http://jersey.uoregon.edu/~mstrick/RogueComCollege/RCC_Lectures/Banded_Iron.html Geologic evidence for major environmental change http://tiny.cc/BandedIronClimate http://academic.udayton.edu/MichaelSandy/Global%20warming%20powerpoints/Geologic%20evidence%20for%20global%20change.ppt Yours, Paul H. From stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 8 11:47:08 2009 From: stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com (steve arnold) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 08:47:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] stoneys falling apart Message-ID: <733331.10265.qm@web57801.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Good morning list.I have known for years that irons do have?fall?apart,due to the air,not being treated correctly,or asomething else.Have stone meteorite ever had this problem? of? just falling apart due to the above reasons.Just wondering.I've never had this problem.It is something I have been wondering.85 days till tucson. ?Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! From gmhupe at htn.net Sun Nov 8 14:19:49 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:19:49 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Test - Delete Message-ID: Test Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault From rob at nakhladogmeteorites.com Sun Nov 8 14:37:08 2009 From: rob at nakhladogmeteorites.com (Rob Wesel) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 11:37:08 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Auctions coming to a close today Message-ID: Hello all from a rainy Portland, Oregon...nothing new there A baker's dozen of fine extraterrestrial treats for your perusal - all ending in a few hours http://shop.ebay.com/nakhladog/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg= Rob Wesel www.nakhladogmeteorites.com www.facebook.com/nakhladog ------------------ We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of the dreams. Willy Wonka, 1971 From GeoZay at aol.com Sun Nov 8 14:50:46 2009 From: GeoZay at aol.com (GeoZay at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:50:46 EST Subject: [meteorite-list] Fantastic Images of Mars Message-ID: These are the best images of Mars I've ever seen and I've seen a lot of good ones over the years. These are well worth looking at. GeoZay http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/11/martian_landscapes.html From cojack at tiscali.it Sun Nov 8 16:07:12 2009 From: cojack at tiscali.it (Francesco Moser) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 22:07:12 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] I need somepictures References: <71B13D8246374217896D21F5B939F0B4@ET> <934C900F-8E53-44B0-A504-BACF574D964B@notkin.net> Message-ID: <64FAE0D23D624E0788D4940213054BD4@fisso> Hello!!! Could someone send me the high resolution version of this famous images for: Or indicate me a web-site where I can find them? - Park Forest - Winslow stone with garage door demaged - Valera - the cow and the meteorite, like: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2006/April/valera.jpg http://www.michaelbloodmeteorites.com/ValeraPostW.jpg - Mbale - the boy and the meteorite http://astro.wsu.edu/worthey/astro/html/im-meteor/mbale-boy-lg.gif - Sikhote-Alin - famous Medvedev paint http://www.arm.ac.uk/paseg/Sikhote-Alin-1947.jpg Thanks a lot! All the best! <>X<>X<>X<>X<> Francesco Moser IMCA #1510 From leighannedelray at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 16:38:42 2009 From: leighannedelray at gmail.com (Leigh Anne DelRay) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:38:42 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] (AD) Ebay auctions ending soon Taza, Sikhote-Alin stamp, Henbury, Gibeon ETCHED EGG, and more.... Message-ID: <5e97e2850911081338y680d6e32pe1b2bc93ef83e2f3@mail.gmail.com> Here are some cool auctions, that are ending soon, they are mine, so buy lots and lots of stuff. http://shop.ebay.com/callistodesigns/m.html?_trkparms=65%253A10%257C66%253A4%257C39%253A1&_ipg=&_sticky=1&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_sop=1&_sc=1 Here is a great SUPER ORIENTED Taza, that was actually sent to China, and sent back to me after 2 months of being lost in the post: http://cgi.ebay.com/NICE-ORIENTED-Taza-Iron-Meteorite-rollover-lips-NWA-859_W0QQitemZ250522203233QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a54497461 Here is a beautiful Libyan Desert Glass: http://cgi.ebay.com/GEM-Libyan-Desert-Glass-Meteorite-Impactite-Tektite-NR_W0QQitemZ250523680579QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a545fff43 Here is Sikhote Alin with a cool commemorative stamp: http://cgi.ebay.com/Sikhote-Alin-Iron-Meteorite-collectible-Russian-Stamp_W0QQitemZ260502367071QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca726ab5f Here is a nice little Henbury: http://cgi.ebay.com/Henbury-Iron-Meteorite-Australia-Complete-Individual-NR_W0QQitemZ250525967134QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a5482e31e Here is a nice little Gibeon Crystal http://cgi.ebay.com/Gibeon-Iron-Meteorite-Crystal-Complete-Individual-NR_W0QQitemZ250525967628QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a5482e50c Here is a NICE ETCHED Gibeon Egg: http://cgi.ebay.com/Gibeon-Iron-Meteorite-ETCHED-CARVED-EGG-Widmanstatten_W0QQitemZ250525971651QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a5482f4c3 Have a good day meteorite people! -Leigh Anne From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Sun Nov 8 20:15:02 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 17:15:02 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Sighting Startles Yolo County Residents Message-ID: Greg S. http://cbs13.com/local/leonid.meteor.sighting.2.1299146.html YOLO COUNTY, Calif. (CBS13) ? Authorities scrambled to find a downed aircraft after numerous witnesses called to report seeing a fireball plunge out of the sky, but the sightings may have been the result of something a bit more astronomical. Yolo County emergency crews searched the area near Interstate 5 and Interstate 505 just northwest of Zamora after multiple callers reported seeing a ball of fire fall out of the sky, but found no sign of any aircraft. An emergency dispatcher with the Federal Aviation Administration confirmed that the event is part of the annual Leonid Meteor Shower, which lasts for a couple of weeks and isn't expected to peak until November 17. Visible meteors typically appear as shooting stars to the naked eye, but footage of other meteor sightings -- much of which is available on YouTube or other video sharing sites -- illustrate the spectacular potential of such events. Authorities reported sightings all across Northern California, from the central coast into the Amador County, relating to the meteor shower. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From meteoritekid at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 20:37:33 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 17:37:33 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fantastic Images of Mars In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93aaac890911081737o7d579cb4r9d7fa820cef37389@mail.gmail.com> For all who haven't yet had a look, this page is well worth looking at. Thanks for the link...wow. Just wow. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 11:50 AM, wrote: > These are the best images of Mars I've ever seen ?and I've seen a lot of > good ones over the years. These are well worth looking ?at. > GeoZay > > > > > http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/11/martian_landscapes.html > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From fuzzfoot at comcast.net Sun Nov 8 21:13:32 2009 From: fuzzfoot at comcast.net (Mike Bandli) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 18:13:32 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fantastic Images of Mars In-Reply-To: <93aaac890911081737o7d579cb4r9d7fa820cef37389@mail.gmail.com> References: <93aaac890911081737o7d579cb4r9d7fa820cef37389@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6327D67CBF3B4784BA38468878F6CBE4@Bandli1> Wow is an understatement. Definitely work a look if you haven't yet. The first image looks almost like a tattoo on skin. Others feel like I am looking through a microscope. Epic. ----------------------------------- Mike Bandli Historic Meteorites www.HistoricMeteorites.com IMCA #5765 ----------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Jason Utas Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 5:38 PM To: GeoZay at aol.com; Meteorite-list Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fantastic Images of Mars For all who haven't yet had a look, this page is well worth looking at. Thanks for the link...wow. Just wow. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 11:50 AM, wrote: > These are the best images of Mars I've ever seen ?and I've seen a lot of > good ones over the years. These are well worth looking ?at. > GeoZay > > > > > http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/11/martian_landscapes.html > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Sun Nov 8 21:33:34 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 18:33:34 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fantastic Images of Mars In-Reply-To: <6327D67CBF3B4784BA38468878F6CBE4@Bandli1> References: <93aaac890911081737o7d579cb4r9d7fa820cef37389@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6327D67CBF3B4784BA38468878F6CBE4 at Bandli1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 The second loooks like carpet. Awesome pictures. =20 Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > From: fuzzfoot at comcast.net > To: meteoritekid at gmail.com=3B GeoZay at aol.com=3B meteorite-list at meteoritec= entral.com > Date: Sun=2C 8 Nov 2009 18:13:32 -0800 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fantastic Images of Mars > > Wow is an understatement. Definitely work a look if you haven't yet. The > first image looks almost like a tattoo on skin. Others feel like I am > looking through a microscope. Epic. > > ----------------------------------- > Mike Bandli > Historic Meteorites > www.HistoricMeteorites.com > IMCA #5765 > ----------------------------------------------- > -----Original Message----- > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Jason U= tas > Sent: Sunday=2C November 08=2C 2009 5:38 PM > To: GeoZay at aol.com=3B Meteorite-list > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fantastic Images of Mars > > For all who haven't yet had a look=2C this page is well worth looking at. > Thanks for the link...wow. Just wow. > > On Sun=2C Nov 8=2C 2009 at 11:50 AM=2C wrote: >> These are the best images of Mars I've ever seen and I've seen a lot of >> good ones over the years. These are well worth looking at. >> GeoZay >> >> >> >> >> http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/11/martian_landscapes.html >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list =20 _________________________________________________________________ Find the right PC with Windows 7 and Windows Live.=20 http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/pc-scout/laptop-set-criteria.aspx?cbid=3Dw= l&filt=3D200=2C2400=2C10=2C19=2C1=2C3=2C1=2C7=2C50=2C650=2C2=2C12=2C0=2C100= 0&cat=3D1=2C2=2C3=2C4=2C5=2C6&brands=3D5=2C6=2C7=2C8=2C9=2C10=2C11=2C12=2C1= 3=2C14=2C15=2C16&addf=3D4=2C5=2C9&ocid=3DPID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WW= L_WIN_evergreen2:112009= From dave at fallingrocks.com Sun Nov 8 21:54:13 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 21:54:13 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD Huge chondrite, etc...Robert Ward Message-ID: <2A06E9D0732949C5948C1437F9E0AB7D@meteorroom> All, Robert Ward is still stuck in the Yahoo! abyss, can't post at the moment, and asked that I forward this link of eBay auctions he has coming up in very short order. A HUGE chondrite, among many other things... http://shop.ebay.com/ironfromthesky/m.html Best, Dave Gheesling IMCA #5967 www.fallingrocks.com From cdtucson at cox.net Sat Nov 7 13:58:37 2009 From: cdtucson at cox.net (cdtucson at cox.net) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 10:58:37 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Anyone remember this? In-Reply-To: <799BA6A2-175C-4D68-AFE8-F5668CF47EFE@dof3.com> Message-ID: <20091107135837.ERBMG.76144.imail@fed1rmwml39> Darryl, List, I just came across this in my old mail and have a question. I know you are an expert so, obviously you knew it was not a meteorite by sight. So, the question is this. Since we know now that It was determined to be space debris from a pervious space mission and I believe they called it stainless steel. Would it not still have a great value because it was once in space? And shouldn't it still have fusion crust? Why does it not? Where is the fusion crust? Is it possible that some metal meteorites do not have fusion crusts? I would love to see the analysis of this space rock. It seems to me this should argue against a "must have" for fusion crust. Is this not the observed science here ? And are we supposed to ignore the science? This thing crashed through a roof and caused significant damage. Do you have any inside knowledge of what ever happened to the rock? Thanks Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza (520) 979-9865 Meteoritemax ---- Darryl Pitt wrote: > > Obviously at the outset a meteorwrong....but somehow required months > to establish after a team of scientists from Rutgers declared it was a > meteorite. > > With no visual or sonic phenomena to accompany the low altitude > explosion, which would have been the only explanation for such a shape > and striated surface character without fusion crust, there was no way > this was a meteorite. I vigorously pointed out to the local > newspapers and Rutgers this couldn't possibly be a meteorite to no > avail. I was on a live FOX radio show where they literally took me > off the air after having called me to ask what I thought of the "new > meteorite." When I pointed out that it was unlikely this was a > meteorite, they pointed out "And you have a degree in what?" and upon > my answer cut to a commercial and I was toast. > > Months after Rutgers put the object on display in their natural > history museum---for which they attracted their largest crowds ever--- > it was publicly acknowledged the origin of this object was of earthly > provenance. > > > > On May 8, 2009, at 4:27 AM, Meteorites USA wrote: > > > Does anyone remember or know what came of this? > > > > http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/01/070105-space-rock.html > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Eric Wichman > > Meteorites USA > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From paul at meteorite.com Sun Nov 8 22:25:00 2009 From: paul at meteorite.com (Paul Harris) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 19:25:00 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] November Meteorite-Times Now Up Message-ID: <4AF78B8C.7090906@meteorite.com> Hello Everyone, The November issue of Meteorite-Times is now up. http://www.meteorite-times.com/ Enjoy! Paul and Jim From cynapse at charter.net Sun Nov 8 22:29:28 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 22:29:28 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fantastic Images of Mars In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: More Mars: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/04/mars-is-sublime/ http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/04/hirise-spots-phoenix-once-again/ Bonus-- some moon: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/05/lro-sees-a-moonslide/ From SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com Mon Nov 9 06:27:19 2009 From: SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com (SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 06:27:19 EST Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 9, 2009 Message-ID: http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_9_2009.html From searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 9 11:29:13 2009 From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net (Brian Cox) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 10:29:13 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Blue/Green Moon Dust in a capsule ended on ebay item # 200401095288 Message-ID: <3A2316F55EF542968C42D1CDBA5CF3DE@user6e6e286533> Everyone might want to have a laugh or a cry at the ridiculous ebay listing of the blue/green sticky candy looking Moon Dust (should I say candy in a stick or Pop-rocks moon dust????) listing on ebay item # 200401095288 by seller 16apollo16 NASA does not allow any moon dust out into public hands as I am aware. I don't ever remember REAL moon dust being a blue/green color! The listing ended last night Nov. 8, at $404.00 with 15 bids, but you can still look at it under the item # 200401095288 This is the listing title below. Seller might want to check their spelling of "meteorite" and change that to "Meteorite" ;-) LUNAR MOON ROCK SOIL DUST--RARE & HISTORIC--APOLLO 16- LUNAR SOIL FROM APOLLO 16 FLIGHT----NOT A METEROITE---- . Enjoy the day, and hopefully you can see the Real, correct color of the moon tonight. Brian IMCA # 6387 From damoclid at yahoo.com Mon Nov 9 12:23:31 2009 From: damoclid at yahoo.com (Richard Kowalski) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 09:23:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Blue/Green Moon Dust in a capsule ended on ebay item # 200401095288 In-Reply-To: <3A2316F55EF542968C42D1CDBA5CF3DE@user6e6e286533> Message-ID: <517991.79392.qm@web33902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The sad part is that a number of people bid on this and the "losing" bid was for $404! -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA #1081 --- On Mon, 11/9/09, Brian Cox wrote: > From: Brian Cox > Subject: [meteorite-list] Blue/Green Moon Dust in a capsule ended on ebay item # 200401095288 > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 9:29 AM > Everyone might want to have a laugh > or a cry at the ridiculous ebay listing of the blue/green > sticky candy looking Moon Dust (should I say candy in a > stick or Pop-rocks moon dust????) listing on ebay item # > 200401095288 by seller 16apollo16 > > NASA does not allow any moon dust out into public hands as > I am aware. I don't ever remember REAL moon dust being a > blue/green color! > > The listing ended last night Nov. 8, at $404.00 with 15 > bids, but you can still look at it under the item #? > 200401095288 > > This is the listing title below. Seller might want to check > their spelling of "meteorite" and change that to "Meteorite" > ;-) > LUNAR MOON ROCK SOIL DUST--RARE & HISTORIC--APOLLO 16- > LUNAR SOIL FROM APOLLO 16 FLIGHT----NOT A METEROITE---- > . > > Enjoy the day, and hopefully you can see the Real, correct > color of the moon tonight. > > Brian > > IMCA # 6387 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From darryl at dof3.com Mon Nov 9 12:51:32 2009 From: darryl at dof3.com (Darryl Pitt) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 12:51:32 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Anyone remember this? In-Reply-To: <9EEEA278-8DD4-4132-B7B9-B8216E2A0DFB@bellatlantic.net> References: <20091107135837.ERBMG.76144.imail@fed1rmwml39> <9EEEA278-8DD4-4132-B7B9-B8216E2A0DFB@bellatlantic.net> Message-ID: <5C025100-1F06-46B3-BA42-9E5C2AD87367@dof3.com> Hiya, I was not aware this was determined to be space debris....and stainless steel no less? All best / d, On Nov 9, 2009, at 11:31 AM, Grant Elliott wrote: > Carl, > > Wasn't a wood chipper a possible source for this object? > Certain "experts" at Rutgers still have egg on face- > > Grant Elliott > Williamstown, NJ > > > On Nov 7, 2009, at 1:58 PM, > wrote: > >> Darryl, List, >> I just came across this in my old mail and have a question. >> I know you are an expert so, obviously you knew it was not a >> meteorite by sight. >> So, the question is this. Since we know now that It was determined >> to be space debris from a pervious space mission and I believe they >> called it stainless steel. Would it not still have a great value >> because it was once in space? And shouldn't it still have fusion >> crust? Why does it not? Where is the fusion crust? Is it possible >> that some metal meteorites do not have fusion crusts? I would love >> to see the analysis of this space rock. It seems to me this should >> argue against a "must have" for fusion crust. Is this not the >> observed science here ? And are we supposed to ignore the science? >> This thing crashed through a roof and caused significant damage. Do >> you have any inside knowledge of what ever happened to the rock? >> Thanks Carl >> >> -- >> Carl or Debbie Esparza >> (520) 979-9865 >> Meteoritemax >> >> >> ---- Darryl Pitt wrote: >>> >>> Obviously at the outset a meteorwrong....but somehow required months >>> to establish after a team of scientists from Rutgers declared it >>> was a >>> meteorite. >>> >>> With no visual or sonic phenomena to accompany the low altitude >>> explosion, which would have been the only explanation for such a >>> shape >>> and striated surface character without fusion crust, there was no >>> way >>> this was a meteorite. I vigorously pointed out to the local >>> newspapers and Rutgers this couldn't possibly be a meteorite to no >>> avail. I was on a live FOX radio show where they literally took me >>> off the air after having called me to ask what I thought of the "new >>> meteorite." When I pointed out that it was unlikely this was a >>> meteorite, they pointed out "And you have a degree in what?" and >>> upon >>> my answer cut to a commercial and I was toast. >>> >>> Months after Rutgers put the object on display in their natural >>> history museum---for which they attracted their largest crowds >>> ever--- >>> it was publicly acknowledged the origin of this object was of >>> earthly >>> provenance. >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 8, 2009, at 4:27 AM, Meteorites USA wrote: >>> >>>> Does anyone remember or know what came of this? >>>> >>>> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/01/070105-space-rock.html >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Regards, >>>> Eric Wichman >>>> Meteorites USA >>>> >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From fujmon at mac.com Mon Nov 9 12:37:33 2009 From: fujmon at mac.com (Gary Fujihara) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 07:37:33 -1000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Blue/Green Moon Dust in a capsule ended on ebay item # 200401095288 In-Reply-To: <517991.79392.qm@web33902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <517991.79392.qm@web33902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <768EAB47-28AC-42FE-B5C1-10A191E2D4FD@mac.com> So ... where is that turnip truck these bidders are falling off of? gary On Nov 9, 2009, at 7:23 AM, Richard Kowalski wrote: > The sad part is that a number of people bid on this and the "losing" > bid was for $404! > > > -- > Richard Kowalski > http://fullmoonphotography.net > IMCA #1081 > > > --- On Mon, 11/9/09, Brian Cox wrote: > >> From: Brian Cox >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Blue/Green Moon Dust in a capsule ended >> on ebay item # 200401095288 >> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 9:29 AM >> Everyone might want to have a laugh >> or a cry at the ridiculous ebay listing of the blue/green >> sticky candy looking Moon Dust (should I say candy in a >> stick or Pop-rocks moon dust????) listing on ebay item # >> 200401095288 by seller 16apollo16 >> >> NASA does not allow any moon dust out into public hands as >> I am aware. I don't ever remember REAL moon dust being a >> blue/green color! >> >> The listing ended last night Nov. 8, at $404.00 with 15 >> bids, but you can still look at it under the item # >> 200401095288 >> >> This is the listing title below. Seller might want to check >> their spelling of "meteorite" and change that to "Meteorite" >> ;-) >> LUNAR MOON ROCK SOIL DUST--RARE & HISTORIC--APOLLO 16- >> LUNAR SOIL FROM APOLLO 16 FLIGHT----NOT A METEROITE---- >> . >> >> Enjoy the day, and hopefully you can see the Real, correct >> color of the moon tonight. >> >> Brian >> >> IMCA # 6387 >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Gary Fujihara AstroDay Institute 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720 (808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com http://astroday.net From sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 9 13:49:16 2009 From: sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net (Sterling K. Webb) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 12:49:16 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Anyone remember this? References: <20091107135837.ERBMG.76144.imail@fed1rmwml39><9EEEA278-8DD4-4132-B7B9-B8216E2A0DFB@bellatlantic.net> <5C025100-1F06-46B3-BA42-9E5C2AD87367@dof3.com> Message-ID: Hi, The Bloomington, Illinois incident about the same time was determined to be a wood chipper blade. The New Jersey Object was determined to be terrestrial in origin, but of "unknown provenance." Possibly they were too embarassed to look further after bally-hooing it? Sterling K. Webb ----------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darryl Pitt" To: "Grant Elliott" Cc: "meteoritelist" Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Anyone remember this? > > > Hiya, > > I was not aware this was determined to be space debris....and > stainless steel no less? All best / d, > > > > > On Nov 9, 2009, at 11:31 AM, Grant Elliott wrote: > >> Carl, >> >> Wasn't a wood chipper a possible source for this object? >> Certain "experts" at Rutgers still have egg on face- >> >> Grant Elliott >> Williamstown, NJ >> >> >> On Nov 7, 2009, at 1:58 PM, >> wrote: >> >>> Darryl, List, >>> I just came across this in my old mail and have a question. >>> I know you are an expert so, obviously you knew it was not a >>> meteorite by sight. >>> So, the question is this. Since we know now that It was determined >>> to be space debris from a pervious space mission and I believe they >>> called it stainless steel. Would it not still have a great value >>> because it was once in space? And shouldn't it still have fusion >>> crust? Why does it not? Where is the fusion crust? Is it possible >>> that some metal meteorites do not have fusion crusts? I would love >>> to see the analysis of this space rock. It seems to me this should >>> argue against a "must have" for fusion crust. Is this not the >>> observed science here ? And are we supposed to ignore the science? >>> This thing crashed through a roof and caused significant damage. Do >>> you have any inside knowledge of what ever happened to the rock? >>> Thanks Carl >>> >>> -- >>> Carl or Debbie Esparza >>> (520) 979-9865 >>> Meteoritemax >>> >>> >>> ---- Darryl Pitt wrote: >>>> >>>> Obviously at the outset a meteorwrong....but somehow required >>>> months >>>> to establish after a team of scientists from Rutgers declared it >>>> was a >>>> meteorite. >>>> >>>> With no visual or sonic phenomena to accompany the low altitude >>>> explosion, which would have been the only explanation for such a >>>> shape >>>> and striated surface character without fusion crust, there was no >>>> way >>>> this was a meteorite. I vigorously pointed out to the local >>>> newspapers and Rutgers this couldn't possibly be a meteorite to no >>>> avail. I was on a live FOX radio show where they literally took me >>>> off the air after having called me to ask what I thought of the >>>> "new >>>> meteorite." When I pointed out that it was unlikely this was a >>>> meteorite, they pointed out "And you have a degree in what?" and >>>> upon >>>> my answer cut to a commercial and I was toast. >>>> >>>> Months after Rutgers put the object on display in their natural >>>> history museum---for which they attracted their largest crowds >>>> ever--- >>>> it was publicly acknowledged the origin of this object was of >>>> earthly >>>> provenance. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 8, 2009, at 4:27 AM, Meteorites USA wrote: >>>> >>>>> Does anyone remember or know what came of this? >>>>> >>>>> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/01/070105-space-rock.html >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Eric Wichman >>>>> Meteorites USA >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________________________ >>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>> >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From r.cucchiara at comcast.net Mon Nov 9 15:36:25 2009 From: r.cucchiara at comcast.net (robert cucchiara) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 12:36:25 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] SALE-Santa Rosa Iron Meteorite Message-ID: Hi List, I have many gorgeous slices of the rare Santa Rosa iron meteorite. Some slices have beautiful graphite inclusions. Classified as an IC Ataxite but as evidenced by the photos this is not an ataxite but a extremely nice altered octahedrite. Very little of this meteorite has ever made it to any personal collections in the past. Most being locked up in museums and institutions. Santa Rosa has a very interesting story which you can view below! A couple of years ago an additional mass was recovered of about 30 kilos. These slices come from that mass These slices were professionally prepared by Marlin Cilz. There were only 7 complete slices. I don't believe complete slices have ever been offered of Santa Rosa. Now may be your only chance to get one of these. Less than 6 kilos are available at the best price ever offered for Santa Rosa at only $6 a gram. Some slices have already sold. FREE SHIPPING IN THE US!! $12.95 for international customers. See all that is available here! http://www.meteoritemadness.com/santarosa.html Reply to this message off list or email with your choice to r.cucchiara at comcast.net . First come, first served Thank you Bob C. HENRY A. WARD AND THE RECOVERY OF THE SANTA ROSA, COLOMBIA, METEORITE H. Plotkin, Department of Philosophy, University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario N6A3K7, Canada. Email:hplotkin at uwo.ca Henry A. Ward (1834-1906) was perhaps the shrewdest and most enthusiastic meteorite collector of his day. He was also very knowledgeable. Word of a massive iron meteorite in Santa Rosa, Colombia, captured his imagination. Ward's interest can best be viewed in the context of the confusion that existed between this meteorite and two other irons that had been found nearby, Tocavita and Rasgata. In an effort to clear up the mess-- and also to see if he could acquire the meteorite in whole or in part--he decided to visit the desolate locale in 1906, a few weeks prior to his 72nd birthday. My account of Ward's Colombian trip is primarily based on the extensive collection of unpublished material in the Henry A. Ward papers at the University of Rochester, including diaries, correspondence, and photographs. Upon arrival in Colombia, it took Ward nineteen days by steamer, mule, and carriage to reach Santa Rosa. He arrived at nightfall, but as soon as he looked out from his hotel window the next morning, he saw the large meteorite (612.5 kg) perched atop a fluted column in the middle of the town square. Ward realized the meteorite was highly venerated by the townspeople, and knew it would be extremely difficult--if not impossible--to acquire any of it. But he had a clever plan. Calling on the Governor, Ward boldly proposed an exchange: in return for a promise to erect a statue in the town square of the President of the Republic (who happened to have been born in Santa Rosa), he would be given the entire meteorite. The Governor liked this idea, and at a stormy meeting with the Mayor and other municipal officers forced their approval. Late that night, in the middle of a large eating and drinking party which Ward threw at his hotel for the townspeople, the Governor and a party of 50 soldiers quietly overturned the column, placed the meteorite on a cart, and whisked it away. Ward left for Bogota the next day, but shortly after reaching there heard that the Chief of the Colombian police had sent out a party that had captured his wagon, retrieved the meteorite, and locked up the cart driver. Although Ward insisted he had proper authorization for the meteorite, a heated legal battle ensued. A decision by the Minister of Public Instruction forbade him to leave the country with the meteorite, but he was allowed to cut off a large endpiece (147.5 kg) for his efforts. Ward took this back with him to New York, but he died tragically a few months after his return, when struck by an automobile while crossing a street in Buffalo. Ward's unfinished report on the Santa Rosa meteorite will be examined, as will our present understanding of its relationship to Tocavita and Rasgata. The main mass of the Santa Rosa meteorite (about 460 kg) is now in the National Museum in Bogota, while Ward's endpiece was cut up and distributed to various museums throughout the world for study and curation. 67th Annual Meteoritical Society Meeting (2004) 5038.pdf From raremeteorites at yahoo.com Mon Nov 9 15:47:12 2009 From: raremeteorites at yahoo.com (Adam Hupe) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 12:47:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Once Weekly AD - Great Material Ending At Auction Message-ID: <195759.32679.qm@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear List Members, If you have the time, please check out some great auctions due to end this evening and tomorrow afternoon. All of them were started out at just 99 cents with no reserve. Plenty of bargains; Some items do not even have bids yet! All auctions can be found at this link: http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/raremeteorites!_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_mdoZ Thank you for looking and if you are bidding, good luck. Best Regards, ------------------------------------ Adam Hupe The Hupe Collection Team LunarRock IMCA 2185 raremeteorites at yahoo.com From searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 9 16:14:05 2009 From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net (Brian Cox) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 15:14:05 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: Blue/Green Moon Dust in a capsule ended on ebay item # 200401095288 Message-ID: Part of what really angers me about this Turquoise-colored Moon Dust is that if you look at the ebay auction he included a photo copy of a Business Week, May 23, 1996 article that has a paragraph about Robert Haag's 1.35 carat Calcalong Creek lunar meteorite up for auction. He was using that with Bob's good name and that old 1996 auction as part of his ploy to sell this stuff. I honestly feel that the seller was obviously trying to attract us "Meteorite Collectors" but since he spelled "meteorite" wrong and put in his listing the words: "NOT A METEROITE" with that incorrect spelling, that most of us didn't see the auction when we searched ebay for meteorites and didn't come up with this crazy auction. Have a great day!!! Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Cox" To: Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 10:29 AM Subject: Blue/Green Moon Dust in a capsule ended on ebay item # 200401095288 > Everyone might want to have a laugh or a cry at the ridiculous ebay > listing of the blue/green sticky candy looking Moon Dust (should I say > candy in a stick or Pop-rocks moon dust????) listing on ebay item # > 200401095288 by seller 16apollo16 > > NASA does not allow any moon dust out into public hands as I am aware. I > don't ever remember REAL moon dust being a blue/green color! > > The listing ended last night Nov. 8, at $404.00 with 15 bids, but you can > still look at it under the item # 200401095288 > > This is the listing title below. Seller might want to check their spelling > of "meteorite" and change that to "Meteorite" ;-) > LUNAR MOON ROCK SOIL DUST--RARE & HISTORIC--APOLLO 16- > LUNAR SOIL FROM APOLLO 16 FLIGHT----NOT A METEROITE---- > . > > Enjoy the day, and hopefully you can see the Real, correct color of the > moon tonight. > > Brian > > IMCA # 6387 From meteoritefinder at yahoo.com Mon Nov 9 17:58:38 2009 From: meteoritefinder at yahoo.com (Robert Woolard) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:58:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 9, 2009 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <359445.12711.qm@web39605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Michael and Greg, Thanks, Michael for your continuing daily efforts to bring us all such nice photos of great specimens. And Greg, congrats on the beautiful lunar. Best wishes, Robert Woolard --- On Mon, 11/9/09, SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com wrote: > From: SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 9, 2009 > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 5:27 AM > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_9_2009.html > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From spacerocksinc at aol.com Mon Nov 9 19:19:33 2009 From: spacerocksinc at aol.com (spacerocksinc at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:19:33 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November9, 2009 Message-ID: <1063683484-1257812331-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-891242829-@bda267.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> My pleasure Robert! Thank you and all who have contributed! Best wishes, Michael Johnson http://www.rocksfromspace.org ------Original Message------ From: Robert Woolard Sender: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com To: Michael Johnson Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November9, 2009 Sent: Nov 9, 2009 5:58 PM Michael and Greg, Thanks, Michael for your continuing daily efforts to bring us all such nice photos of great specimens. And Greg, congrats on the beautiful lunar. Best wishes, Robert Woolard --- On Mon, 11/9/09, SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com wrote: > From: SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 9, 2009 > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 5:27 AM > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_9_2009.html > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Thumbed On My BlackBerry From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Mon Nov 9 19:47:32 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 16:47:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] MRO HiRISE Images - November 4, 2009 Message-ID: <200911100047.nAA0lWWN007530@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> MARS RECONNAISSANCE ORBITER HIRISE IMAGES November 4, 2009 o Pitted Layers Northeast of Hellas Region (PSP_010839_1525) http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_010839_1525 o Evolution of the South Polar Residual Cap http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_004687_0930 o Southeastern Margin of Athabasca Valles http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_014304_1895 o Gullies with Dark Channels http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_014296_1255 o Sand Dunes http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_014291_1120 All of the HiRISE images are archived here: http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ Information about the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter is online at http://www.nasa.gov/mro. The mission is managed by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a division of the California Institute of Technology, for the NASA Science Mission Directorate, Washington, D.C. Lockheed Martin Space Systems, of Denver, is the prime contractor and built the spacecraft. HiRISE is operated by the University of Arizona. Ball Aerospace and Technologies Corp., of Boulder, Colo., built the HiRISE instrument. From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Mon Nov 9 19:45:15 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 16:45:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Small Asteroid 2009 VA Whizzes By The Earth Message-ID: <200911100045.nAA0jF45006516@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news166.html Small Asteroid 2009 VA Whizzes By The Earth Don Yeomans, Paul Chodas, Steve Chesley NASA/JPL Near-Earth Object Program Office November 9, 2009 [Graphic] Trajectory of Asteroid 2009 VA Past Earth on November 6, 2009 A newly discovered asteroid designated 2009 VA, which is only about 7 meters in size, passed about 2 Earth radii (14,000 km) from the Earth's surface Nov. 6 at around 16:30 EST. This is the third-closest known (non-impacting) Earth approach on record for a cataloged asteroid. The two closer approaches include the 1-meter sized asteroid 2008 TS26, which passed within 6,150 km of the Earth's surface on October 9, 2008, and the 7-meter sized asteroid 2004 FU162 that passed within 6,535 km on March 31, 2004. On average, objects the size of 2009 VA pass this close about twice per year and impact Earth about once every 5 years. Asteroid 2009 VA was discovered by the Catalina Sky Survey about 15 hours before the close approach, and was quickly identified by the Minor Planet Center in Cambridge MA as an object that would soon pass very close to the Earth. JPL's Near-Earth Object Program Office also computed an orbit solution for this object, and determined that it was not headed for an impact. Only thirteen months ago, the somewhat smaller object 2008 TC3 was discovered under similar circumstances, but that one was found to be on a trajectory headed for the Earth, with impact only about 11 hours away. From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Mon Nov 9 19:40:56 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 16:40:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Frost-Covered Phoenix Lander Seen in Winter Images Message-ID: <200911100040.nAA0eu8S005643@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2009-160&icid='MostViewHome' Frost-Covered Phoenix Lander Seen in Winter Images Jet Propulsion Laboratory November 04, 2009 PASADENA, Calif. -- Winter images of NASA's Phoenix Lander showing the lander shrouded in dry-ice frost on Mars have been captured with the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment, or HiRISE camera, aboard NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter. The HiRISE camera team at the University of Arizona, Tucson, captured one image of the Phoenix lander on July 30, 2009, and the other on Aug. 22, 2009. That's when the sun began peeking over the horizon of the northern polar plains during winter, the imaging team said. The first day of spring in the northern hemisphere began Oct. 26. The images are available at http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_014393_2485. "We decided to try imaging the site despite the low light levels," said HiRISE team member Ingrid Spitale of the University of Arizona Lunar and Planetary Laboratory. "The power of the HiRISE camera helped us see it even under these poor light conditions," added HiRISE team member Michael Mellon of the University of Colorado in Boulder, who was also on the Phoenix Mars Lander science team. The HiRISE team targeted their camera at the known location of the lander to get the new images and compared them to a HiRISE image of the frost-free lander taken in June 2008. That enabled them to identify the hardware disguised by frost, despite the fact that their views were hindered by poor lighting and by atmospheric haze, which often obscures the surface at this location and season. Carbon dioxide frost completely blankets the surface in both images. The amount of carbon dioxide frost builds as late winter transitions to early spring, so the layer of frost is thicker in the Aug. 22 image. HiRISE scientists noted that brightness doesn't necessarily indicate the amount of frost seen in the images because of the way the images are processed to produce optimal contrast. Even the darker areas in the frost-covered images are still brighter than typical soil that surrounds the lander in frost-free images taken during the lander's prime mission in 2008. Other factors that affect the relative brightness include the size of the individual grains of carbon dioxide ice, the amount of dust mixed with the ice, the amount of sunlight hitting the surface and different lighting angles and slopes, Spitale and Mellon said. Studying these changes will help us understand the nature of the seasonal frost and winter weather patterns in this area of Mars. Scientists predicted that the ice layer would reach maximum thickness in September 2009, but don't have images to confirm that because HiRISE camera operations were suspended when Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter entered an extended safe mode on Aug. 26. The Phoenix Mars Lander ceased communications last November, after successfully completing its mission and returning unprecedented primary science phase and returning science data to Earth. During the first quarter of 2010, teams at JPL will listen to see if Phoenix is still able to communicate with Earth. Communication is not expected and is considered highly unlikely following the extended period of frost on the lander. HiRISE is run from the Lunar and Planetary Laboratory's HiRISE Operations Center, on the University of Arizona campus. Planetary Sciences Professor Alfred McEwen is HiRISE principal investigator. Planetary Sciences Professor Peter Smith is principal investigator for the Phoenix Mars Lander mission. The Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter is managed by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a division of the California Institute of Technology, for NASA Science Mission Directorate, Washington. Lockheed Martin Space Systems, based in Denver, is the prime contractor and built the spacecraft. Ball Aerospace Technologies Corp., of Boulder, Colo., built the HiRISE camera. For more information about the mission, visit: http://www.nasa.gov/mro . Guy Webster 818-354-6278 Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. guy.webster at jpl.nasa.gov 2009-160 From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Mon Nov 9 19:51:28 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 16:51:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Mars Odyssey THEMIS Images: November 2-6, 2009 Message-ID: <200911100051.nAA0pSjL008875@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> MARS ODYSSEY THEMIS IMAGES November 2-6, 2009 o Rabe Crater Dunes (02 November 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091102a o Nirgal Vallis (04 November 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091104a o Reull Vallis (05 November 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091105a o Channel (06 November 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091106a All of the THEMIS images are archived here: http://themis.asu.edu/latest.html NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory manages the 2001 Mars Odyssey mission for NASA's Office of Space Science, Washington, D.C. The Thermal Emission Imaging System (THEMIS) was developed by Arizona State University, Tempe, in co.oration with Raytheon Santa Barbara Remote Sensing. The THEMIS investigation is led by Dr. Philip Christensen at Arizona State University. Lockheed Martin Astronautics, Denver, is the prime contractor for the Odyssey project, and developed and built the orbiter. Mission operations are conducted jointly from Lockheed Martin and from JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena. From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Mon Nov 9 19:54:57 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 16:54:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Troubled Asteroid Mission Stumbles on Road Home (Hayabusa) Message-ID: <200911100054.nAA0swnw009762@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0911/09hayabusa/ Troubled asteroid mission stumbles on road home BY STEPHEN CLARK SPACEFLIGHT NOW November 9, 2009 Hopes are fading for the return of the Hayabusa space probe after another of its ion thrusters failed last week, leaving just one already-damaged engine to guide the hard-luck spacecraft back to Earth, potentially with the first precious samples of an asteroid. Hayabusa's four experimental microwave discharge ion engines consume xenon gas and expel the ionized propellant at high speeds to produce thrust. Two of the thrusters already failed before another engine shut down last Wednesday, according to the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency. Thruster D's failure was caused by a voltage spike due to problems with a neutralization vessel. A similar anomaly triggered the failure of another engine in 2007. The fourth ion propulsion unit, called Thruster C, was already shut down after signs that it also might succumb to high voltage damage. Engineers are now testing that engine to determine if it is capable of long-duration firings. Ion engines are more efficient than conventional chemical thrusters because they use less fuel and can operate continuously for thousands of hours. Hayabusa's thrusters have accumulated almost 40,000 hours of burn time since the probe launched in May 2003. The engine that failed last week had been firing since February to bend the 950-pound probe's trajectory, allowing it to reach Earth by June 2010 and release a small re-entry capsule possibly carrying samples from asteroid Itokawa. In February, JAXA officials said Hayabusa needed to accelerate by about 900 mph to reach Earth. Thruster D was slated to continue operating until March, when Hayabusa would begin coasting toward its parachuted return over the desert of Australia. Officials now say they are evaluating the asteroid mission's return course after last week's glitch. Hayabusa spent three months exploring Itokawa in late 2005. The probe took 1,600 pictures and collected about 120,000 pieces of near-infrared spectral data and 15,000 data points with its X-ray spectrometer to investigate the small potato-shaped asteroid's surface composition. The spacecraft approached Itokawa several times, attempting to fire a pellet into the asteroid's surface and retrieve rock samples through a funnel leading to a collection chamber. During a failed sampling attempt in November 2005, Hayabusa made an unplanned landing and spent up to a half-hour on Itokawa, becoming the first spacecraft to take off from an asteroid. Although telemetry showed Hayabusa likely did not fire its projectile while on the surface, scientists were hopeful bits of dust or pebbles found their way through the funnel and into the sample retrieval system. Hayabusa was later stymied by a fuel leak and ground controllers temporarily lost communications with the spacecraft, which is about the size of an average refrigerator. Controllers labored to overcome the issues, which were compounded by the loss of two orientation-controlling reaction wheels and power cells in an electrical battery. The craft's departure from Itokawa was delayed a year because of the problems, postponing its return to Earth from 2007 until 2010. From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Mon Nov 9 19:57:39 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 16:57:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Ground Teams Struggle to Save Mars Orbiter from Itself (MRO) Message-ID: <200911100057.nAA0vdYF010782@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0911/07mro/ Ground teams struggle to save Mars orbiter from itself BY STEPHEN CLARK SPACEFLIGHT NOW November 7, 2009 Although engineers are still weeks from uplinking new command logic to eliminate an unlikely, but potentially fatal, scenario jeopardizing the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, the mission's project manager said Friday he is confident the $720 million mission will resume soon. After four science-halting computer resets this year, officials in charge of MRO decided to keep the probe in safe mode until they could ensure the glitches would not threaten the mission. Engineers are pursuing two paths of analysis to reach a solution to the reset problem. One group is trying to devise a fix to be uplinked for the spacecraft to tell itself it is at Mars. Another is investigating the root cause of the events. In one far-fetched but plausible scenario, MRO could revert to its pre-launch mode and attempt to make a hardline connection with ground controllers more than 100 million miles away. "If we had the same kind of resets that we've seen four of this year, but you get more severe ones and you get them too close together, you could have the vehicle forget that it's in mapping orbit around Mars and instead think that it's still on the launch pad and only communicate through an umbilical cable, which isn't long enough to get there anymore," Erickson said. Four major causes for the resets are being studied, according to Erickson. The candidates include a momentary glitch removing power from a component in the computer, a problem with reference voltage, radiation, or a grounding issue. "It's more than likely to be one of those four things or a flavor of them," Erickson said. According to Erickson, it will be several weeks to a month before MRO is ready to gradually return to normal operations. The spacecraft has not been conducting science observations since its last computer reset Aug. 26. Since late August, MRO has been in safe mode with its solar array tracking the sun for power and its antenna pointed at Earth to maintain communications. "It's the safest condition for the spacecraft, so we said just leave it there until we get a better handle on this," said Doug McCuistion, director NASA's Mars exploration program. In early September, officials said they expected it to take a few weeks to recover MRO and resume operations, but it has now spent nearly three months in safe mode. Erickson said engineers are testing the new algorithms on the ground before uplinking them to MRO. "We take our jobs of protecting this vehicle really seriously," Erickson said. "It's a really important asset to the American people. When we find something like this, we try to make sure that it can't happen (again)." The worry is that MRO could experience two computer resets, more severe than any of the glitches so far, on its primary and redundant control strings within one minute of each other. "The first one has to wipe out all information on the side of the spacecraft it's on now, and cause a side swap to the other side," Erickson said. "And then within a minute, we've got to have the same thing happen, where it wipes out all the information about what mission phase it's in." It takes about a minute for the second string to repopulate the first string with information on MRO's mission phase. "So you could have resets that are 1 minute and 5 seconds apart and it's not a problem," Erickson said. The computer resets began in February, followed by another anomaly in June and two in August. The increasing frequency of the events concerned NASA managers. The fix being designed by NASA involves changing data parameters in MRO's computer. When the spacecraft reboots, it searches a table in its nonvolatile memory in the command and data handling unit's computer module interface card, or CMIC, to determine if the mission is in pre-launch, launch, cruise, orbit insertion, or mapping mode. "In all the places where it's going to look, we have inserted only the possibility to be in mapping," Erickson said. Engineers are leery of writing to the nonvolatile memory, which is similar to flash, so officials are being cautious to ensure the fix will not cause additional problems. "They've been working hard on the testbed to try to understand the interactions of the software and the CMIC," McCuistion said. The new data parameter logic will likely be loaded into MRO's computer before officials identify the most likely root cause of the resets. It could take longer for engineers to close out the fault tree. "They're having these resets due to a problem in the actual command and data handling system," Erickson said. "It's a hardware problem. These resets are happening so fast that they leave virtually no trace of what's causing them to happen." "It's happening in the nanoseconds to milliseconds range, so there's nothing. Just some indication that the event was 'this trigger happened' and that's it," Erickson said. In a teleconference with the NASA Advisory Council last month, McCuistion said the problem could stem from a parts aging issue. Launched in 2005, MRO arrived at Mars in March 2006 and completed its primary phase of science operations in November 2008. Once the probe its given a clean bill of health, it will restart science observations and play a larger role as a communications relay station for NASA's Spirit and Opportunity rovers. MRO will also be a significant part of the communications plan for the Mars Science Laboratory, or Curiosity, rover when it arrives in 2012. NASA says MRO has returned more scientific data than all previous Mars missions combined. The orbiter's six instruments include a powerful telescope-like high-resolution camera, atmospheric sensors, an imaging spectrometer and a radar to probe the Martian subsurface. From bandk at chorus.net Mon Nov 9 20:15:27 2009 From: bandk at chorus.net (Becky and Kirk) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 19:15:27 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: FOR SALE: (1) NICE 47.4 g Unclassified whole stone & 36.5 g bag of Unclass. stones AND Austrian Meteorite stamps Message-ID: <82FBC2B114F54755A3568B288D8A2938@owner55652f88b> Hi All, I have the following UNCLASSIFIED Meteorites for sale and also (2) Austrian Meteorite stamps. This stamp has the Meteorite dust on the stamp. They can be purchased separately or as a group. I am also open to offers for these of course. (1) Very nice 47.4 gram whole Unclassified whole stone. Very nice form and shape! NICE!! (PLEASE MAKE A REASONABLE OFFER)!! Pics on request. (1) Small bag containing 36.5 total grams Unclassified Meteorites (4) stones, a few slices and a fragment. (PLEASE MAKE A REASONABLE OFFER) Pics on request. (2) Austrian Meteorite stamps. Has tiny bits & dust of an H-Chondrite Meteorite imbedded in the tail of the Meteorite on the stamp! Very unique stamp from March 2006. Very good shape, kept in container. Rest of Meteorite is in a Austrian Museum. ($20.00 EACH or BEST OFFER). Pics on request. Interested parties please contact me off-list at: bandk at chorus.net. Thank you very much!! Kirk.......:-) From stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 9 20:51:30 2009 From: stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com (steve arnold) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 17:51:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] pre-thanksgiving freebies Message-ID: <819400.42502.qm@web57801.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi all.I hope all?are doing fine.I have another freebie session that?is about to commence.I have 20 unclassified stoneys to givaway.Be the first 20 and receive a pre-thanksgiving freebie.I have decided to do only the usa this time around because of the extreme shipping costs.So be the chimmer or be chimed out. ?Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! From STARSANDSCOPES at aol.com Mon Nov 9 21:46:28 2009 From: STARSANDSCOPES at aol.com (STARSANDSCOPES at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:46:28 EST Subject: [meteorite-list] SaU 001 Incident Light Micrograph Message-ID: Hi List, My first love in meteorite micrographs is high magnification incident light (reflected) images of thick samples. My first article in Meteorite Magazine was this technique. For the last couple years I have only worked on cross polarized transmitted light images of thin sections. One of the reasons is camera/adapter for my Neophot issues. I was given the use of a lathe and I turned down a suitable part to address this. I wanted to share a shot of a SaU 001 chondrule up close. If you would like to take a look please email me and let me know if you want the reduced embedded file or the full size 12mp as an attachment. (Many Internet hosts will reject that large of a file). I think the chondrule looks like a planet. Thanks, Tom Phillips From pshugar at clearwire.net Mon Nov 9 22:37:40 2009 From: pshugar at clearwire.net (Pete Shugar) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:37:40 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Question Message-ID: <9C0F69EE7BC04D1B96F22D28769CDB9A@laptop> What is the smallest Main Mass and as a bonus question, who has it? I hold a NWA 1953 @ 11.73 gm. Anyone got a smaller one? Pete IMCA 1733 From fcressy at prodigy.net Mon Nov 9 23:03:44 2009 From: fcressy at prodigy.net (Frank Cressy) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:03:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Question In-Reply-To: <9C0F69EE7BC04D1B96F22D28769CDB9A@laptop> References: <9C0F69EE7BC04D1B96F22D28769CDB9A@laptop> Message-ID: <709198.54678.qm@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello Pete and all, How about Hadley Rille? ~3 milligrams, curated at Johnson Space Center. Cheers, Frank ________________________________ From: Pete Shugar To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 7:37:40 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Question What is the smallest Main Mass and as a bonus question, who has it? I hold a NWA 1953 @ 11.73 gm. Anyone got a smaller one? Pete IMCA 1733 ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From meteoritekid at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 23:12:28 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:12:28 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Question In-Reply-To: <9C0F69EE7BC04D1B96F22D28769CDB9A@laptop> References: <9C0F69EE7BC04D1B96F22D28769CDB9A@laptop> Message-ID: <93aaac890911092012s2efe3c7aya7a619eb004b604e@mail.gmail.com> Yo, We have some Californian meteorites in the 0.6-7g range - and they're complete, yet to be analyzed - http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/458984539/in/photostream/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/458984557/in/photostream/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/3058394982/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/2573349607/ As well as the Superior Valley 014 main mass, at 1.05g. http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/388609022/sizes/l/ - Most of our stones from that lakebed are in the 1-3g range. I have plenty of examples of small finds, though - http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/3936052730/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/3936052636/in/photostream/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/3918795874/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/2573329463/ That's most of what I have online...if you'd like more photos, I can email some over. But one should note -there are plenty of tiny antarctic stones - many less than a gram, though pairing is difficult to judge. And yes, Hadley Rille pretty much trumps all of those. Regards, Jason On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 7:37 PM, Pete Shugar wrote: > What is the smallest Main Mass and as a bonus > question, who has it? > > I hold a NWA 1953 @ 11.73 gm. > Anyone got a smaller one? > Pete IMCA 1733 > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From gmhupe at htn.net Mon Nov 9 23:14:37 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 23:14:37 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Question References: <9C0F69EE7BC04D1B96F22D28769CDB9A@laptop> <93aaac890911092012s2efe3c7aya7a619eb004b604e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <109597BC2434427AAB6193DB9F541B1B@Gregor> I've never understood the 'greeting', "Yo"... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Utas" To: "Pete Shugar" ; "Meteorite-list" Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 11:12 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Question > Yo, > We have some Californian meteorites in the 0.6-7g range - and they're > complete, yet to be analyzed - > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/458984539/in/photostream/ > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/458984557/in/photostream/ > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/3058394982/ > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/2573349607/ > > As well as the Superior Valley 014 main mass, at 1.05g. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/388609022/sizes/l/ > > - Most of our stones from that lakebed are in the 1-3g range. > > I have plenty of examples of small finds, though - > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/3936052730/ > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/3936052636/in/photostream/ > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/3918795874/ > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/2573329463/ > > That's most of what I have online...if you'd like more photos, I can > email some over. > But one should note -there are plenty of tiny antarctic stones - many > less than a gram, though pairing is difficult to judge. > And yes, Hadley Rille pretty much trumps all of those. > Regards, > Jason > > On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 7:37 PM, Pete Shugar wrote: >> What is the smallest Main Mass and as a bonus >> question, who has it? >> >> I hold a NWA 1953 @ 11.73 gm. >> Anyone got a smaller one? >> Pete IMCA 1733 >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From damoclid at yahoo.com Mon Nov 9 23:20:34 2009 From: damoclid at yahoo.com (Richard Kowalski) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:20:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Yo In-Reply-To: <109597BC2434427AAB6193DB9F541B1B@Gregor> Message-ID: <489677.25274.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=yo -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA #1081 --- On Mon, 11/9/09, Greg Hupe wrote: > From: Greg Hupe > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Question > To: "Jason Utas" , "Pete Shugar" , "Meteorite-list" > Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 9:14 PM > I've never understood the 'greeting', > "Yo"... > From gmhupe at htn.net Mon Nov 9 23:22:55 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 23:22:55 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Yo References: <489677.25274.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <494FFD3BBD474F40BB1FBC51BA836AF0@Gregor> Hi Richard, OK, I get it, an effortless reply to someone you "do" know what their name is. G- ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Kowalski" To: "Jason Utas" ; "Pete Shugar" ; "Meteorite-list" ; "Greg Hupe" Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 11:20 PM Subject: Yo > http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=yo > > > -- > Richard Kowalski > http://fullmoonphotography.net > IMCA #1081 > > > --- On Mon, 11/9/09, Greg Hupe wrote: > >> From: Greg Hupe >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Question >> To: "Jason Utas" , "Pete Shugar" >> , "Meteorite-list" >> >> Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 9:14 PM >> I've never understood the 'greeting', >> "Yo"... >> > > > > From meteoritekid at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 23:28:46 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:28:46 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Yo In-Reply-To: <494FFD3BBD474F40BB1FBC51BA836AF0@Gregor> References: <489677.25274.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <494FFD3BBD474F40BB1FBC51BA836AF0@Gregor> Message-ID: <93aaac890911092028l42fd3a65vbdc2f5657e49788b@mail.gmail.com> Yep - it's #'s 2, 4, 5, 7. Be careful with that site, though - there's some sketchy/very inappropriate stuff on there. On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Greg Hupe wrote: > Hi Richard, > > OK, I get it, an effortless reply to someone you "do" know what their name > is. > > G- > ;-) > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Kowalski" > To: "Jason Utas" ; "Pete Shugar" > ; "Meteorite-list" > ; "Greg Hupe" > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 11:20 PM > Subject: Yo > > >> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=yo >> >> >> -- >> Richard Kowalski >> http://fullmoonphotography.net >> IMCA #1081 >> >> >> --- On Mon, 11/9/09, Greg Hupe wrote: >> >>> From: Greg Hupe >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Question >>> To: "Jason Utas" , "Pete Shugar" >>> , "Meteorite-list" >>> >>> Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 9:14 PM >>> I've never understood the 'greeting', >>> "Yo"... >>> >> >> >> >> > > > From gmhupe at htn.net Mon Nov 9 23:38:14 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 23:38:14 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Yo References: <489677.25274.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <494FFD3BBD474F40BB1FBC51BA836AF0@Gregor> <93aaac890911092028l42fd3a65vbdc2f5657e49788b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0A8011C0617642D1891934E6465689E9@Gregor> Hi Jason, I read #6, then went back to your list of numbers yo stated. I am sorry, but I did have a good laugh before I realized I read #6 which was not on your list. Good luck out there in the urban jungle! I must be getting old, I need a translator for English now! :-/ P.S. Matt, Wasn't the "Yo-Yo" an old toy that us old fogies used as entertainment before computers?! :-) Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Utas" To: "Greg Hupe" ; "Meteorite-list" Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 11:28 PM Subject: Re: Yo > Yep - it's #'s 2, 4, 5, 7. > Be careful with that site, though - there's some sketchy/very > inappropriate stuff on there. > > On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Greg Hupe wrote: >> Hi Richard, >> >> OK, I get it, an effortless reply to someone you "do" know what their >> name >> is. >> >> G- >> ;-) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Kowalski" >> >> To: "Jason Utas" ; "Pete Shugar" >> ; "Meteorite-list" >> ; "Greg Hupe" >> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 11:20 PM >> Subject: Yo >> >> >>> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=yo >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Richard Kowalski >>> http://fullmoonphotography.net >>> IMCA #1081 >>> >>> >>> --- On Mon, 11/9/09, Greg Hupe wrote: >>> >>>> From: Greg Hupe >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Question >>>> To: "Jason Utas" , "Pete Shugar" >>>> , "Meteorite-list" >>>> >>>> Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 9:14 PM >>>> I've never understood the 'greeting', >>>> "Yo"... >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > From spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 9 23:40:59 2009 From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com (Melanie Matthews) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:40:59 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Yo In-Reply-To: <489677.25274.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <109597BC2434427AAB6193DB9F541B1B@Gregor> Message-ID: <489677.25274.qm at web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 What does this have to do with meteorites? :-S=20 ----------- Melanie=20 IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 =A0 Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what= you're gonna get!=20 > Date: Mon=2C 9 Nov 2009 20:20:34 -0800 > From: damoclid at yahoo.com > To: meteoritekid at gmail.com=3B pshugar at clearwire.net=3B meteorite-list at met= eoritecentral.com=3B gmhupe at htn.net > Subject: [meteorite-list] Yo >=20 > http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=3Dyo >=20 >=20 > -- > Richard Kowalski > http://fullmoonphotography.net > IMCA #1081 >=20 >=20 > --- On Mon=2C 11/9/09=2C Greg Hupe wrote: >=20 >> From: Greg Hupe >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Question >> To: "Jason Utas" =2C "Pete Shugar" =2C "Meteorite-list" >> Date: Monday=2C November 9=2C 2009=2C 9:14 PM >> I've never understood the 'greeting'=2C >> "Yo"... >>=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list =20 _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you=92re up to on= Facebook. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D9691816= From ROBERT.D.MATSON at saic.com Mon Nov 9 23:40:03 2009 From: ROBERT.D.MATSON at saic.com (Matson, Robert D.) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:40:03 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Yo In-Reply-To: <0A8011C0617642D1891934E6465689E9@Gregor> References: <489677.25274.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com><494FFD3BBD474F40BB1FBC51BA836AF0@Gregor><93aaac890911092028l42fd3a65vbdc2f5657e49788b@mail.gmail.com> <0A8011C0617642D1891934E6465689E9@Gregor> Message-ID: <7C640E28081AEE4B952F008D1E913F1702122B20@0461-its-exmb04.us.saic.com> > P.S. Matt, Wasn't the "Yo-Yo" an old toy that us old fogies used as entertainment before computers?! Yes. But now Yo-Yo is a cellist. ;-) --Rob From rocksfromspace at yahoo.com Tue Nov 10 00:18:03 2009 From: rocksfromspace at yahoo.com (Michael Johnson) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:18:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 10, 2009 Message-ID: <267374.3182.qm@web113002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_10_2009.html From prairiecactus at rtcol.com Tue Nov 10 00:43:44 2009 From: prairiecactus at rtcol.com (Phil Whitmer) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:43:44 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] YO Message-ID: Yo Adrian! Number 80 on Wickipedia's all time list of movie quotes. Yo started as an Italian interjection and was later co-opted by the urban (black), rap and hip hop culture. Nowadays it's been adopted by mainstream culture as a common exclamation. Yo Richard: The Urban Dictionary, an indispensable resource to all serious students of slang. Phil Whitmer From info at meteorites.com.au Tue Nov 10 04:55:02 2009 From: info at meteorites.com.au (Jeff Kuyken) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:55:02 +1100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 10, 2009 In-Reply-To: <267374.3182.qm@web113002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <267374.3182.qm@web113002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <93ECFD3E58104F77BB6913285CAA431C@JeffPC> Now that is very, very cool! Thanks for sharing, Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Johnson" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 4:18 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 10,2009 > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_10_2009.html > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > From stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 10 09:10:35 2009 From: stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com (steve arnold) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:10:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] more freebies to go around Message-ID: <773977.15767.qm@web57802.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi again list.I still have 10 more freebies to go around.No one wants any free unclassed nwa's? Chime in and usa only on this round. ?Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! From cdtucson at cox.net Mon Nov 9 13:55:32 2009 From: cdtucson at cox.net (cdtucson at cox.net) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 13:55:32 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Anyone remember this? In-Reply-To: <5C025100-1F06-46B3-BA42-9E5C2AD87367@dof3.com> Message-ID: <20091109135532.WZLYM.96907.imail@fed1rmwml45> All, Yes is was space junk but does anybody have the actual analysis that was done? Thanks see link http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18618503/ --Thank you. Carl or Debbie Esparza (520) 979-9865 Meteoritemax ---- Darryl Pitt wrote: > > > Hiya, > > I was not aware this was determined to be space debris....and > stainless steel no less? All best / d, > > > > > On Nov 9, 2009, at 11:31 AM, Grant Elliott wrote: > > > Carl, > > > > Wasn't a wood chipper a possible source for this object? > > Certain "experts" at Rutgers still have egg on face- > > > > Grant Elliott > > Williamstown, NJ > > > > > > On Nov 7, 2009, at 1:58 PM, > > wrote: > > > >> Darryl, List, > >> I just came across this in my old mail and have a question. > >> I know you are an expert so, obviously you knew it was not a > >> meteorite by sight. > >> So, the question is this. Since we know now that It was determined > >> to be space debris from a pervious space mission and I believe they > >> called it stainless steel. Would it not still have a great value > >> because it was once in space? And shouldn't it still have fusion > >> crust? Why does it not? Where is the fusion crust? Is it possible > >> that some metal meteorites do not have fusion crusts? I would love > >> to see the analysis of this space rock. It seems to me this should > >> argue against a "must have" for fusion crust. Is this not the > >> observed science here ? And are we supposed to ignore the science? > >> This thing crashed through a roof and caused significant damage. Do > >> you have any inside knowledge of what ever happened to the rock? > >> Thanks Carl > >> > >> -- > >> Carl or Debbie Esparza > >> (520) 979-9865 > >> Meteoritemax > >> > >> > >> ---- Darryl Pitt wrote: > >>> > >>> Obviously at the outset a meteorwrong....but somehow required months > >>> to establish after a team of scientists from Rutgers declared it > >>> was a > >>> meteorite. > >>> > >>> With no visual or sonic phenomena to accompany the low altitude > >>> explosion, which would have been the only explanation for such a > >>> shape > >>> and striated surface character without fusion crust, there was no > >>> way > >>> this was a meteorite. I vigorously pointed out to the local > >>> newspapers and Rutgers this couldn't possibly be a meteorite to no > >>> avail. I was on a live FOX radio show where they literally took me > >>> off the air after having called me to ask what I thought of the "new > >>> meteorite." When I pointed out that it was unlikely this was a > >>> meteorite, they pointed out "And you have a degree in what?" and > >>> upon > >>> my answer cut to a commercial and I was toast. > >>> > >>> Months after Rutgers put the object on display in their natural > >>> history museum---for which they attracted their largest crowds > >>> ever--- > >>> it was publicly acknowledged the origin of this object was of > >>> earthly > >>> provenance. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On May 8, 2009, at 4:27 AM, Meteorites USA wrote: > >>> > >>>> Does anyone remember or know what came of this? > >>>> > >>>> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/01/070105-space-rock.html > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Regards, > >>>> Eric Wichman > >>>> Meteorites USA > >>>> > >>>> ______________________________________________ > >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >>> > >>> ______________________________________________ > >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> ______________________________________________ > >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > From cynapse at charter.net Tue Nov 10 11:20:00 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:20:00 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Apollo 11 landing site In-Reply-To: <82FBC2B114F54755A3568B288D8A2938@owner55652f88b> References: <82FBC2B114F54755A3568B288D8A2938@owner55652f88b> Message-ID: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/09/one-giant-leap/ From fcressy at prodigy.net Tue Nov 10 11:28:21 2009 From: fcressy at prodigy.net (Frank Cressy) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 08:28:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] August Issue of MAPS - Great article on Stuart Perry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <182528.86653.qm@web80207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello all, Received my August 2009 issue of MAPS yesterday.? I highly recommend the article by Plotkin and Clarke on "Stuart H. Perry's contributions to meteorite collection and research, 1927-1957.? Don't recognize Perry's name?? After you read the article you'll realize his contributions were every bit as important as Niningers. Cheers, Frank From ROBERT.D.MATSON at saic.com Tue Nov 10 13:36:45 2009 From: ROBERT.D.MATSON at saic.com (Matson, Robert D.) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:36:45 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] NJO is NOT space junk In-Reply-To: <20091109135532.WZLYM.96907.imail@fed1rmwml45> References: <5C025100-1F06-46B3-BA42-9E5C2AD87367@dof3.com> <20091109135532.WZLYM.96907.imail@fed1rmwml45> Message-ID: <7C640E28081AEE4B952F008D1E913F1702122CFF@0461-its-exmb04.us.saic.com> Hi Carl, The "New Jersey Object" is NOT space junk. It's CLEARLY terrestrial. There is no way you get an exterior appearance like that on something that was moving through the atmosphere at 5 miles per second. That was the main argument against it being a meteorite in the first place. --Rob -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of cdtucson at cox.net Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 10:56 AM To: Grant Elliott; Darryl Pitt; meteoritelist Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Anyone remember this? All, Yes is was space junk but does anybody have the actual analysis that was done? Thanks see link http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18618503/ --Thank you. Carl or Debbie Esparza (520) 979-9865 Meteoritemax From mmurray at montrose.net Tue Nov 10 14:42:56 2009 From: mmurray at montrose.net (Michael Murray) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:42:56 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Question In-Reply-To: <9C0F69EE7BC04D1B96F22D28769CDB9A@laptop> References: <9C0F69EE7BC04D1B96F22D28769CDB9A@laptop> Message-ID: <4DE66A88-F798-4D98-8BD8-11338849FDE6@montrose.net> Hi Pete, List, Good question. I don't have your answer but have been pondering on the main mass thing myself. When I see the words "main mass" mentioned, I conjure up a mental image of the biggest piece of meteorite recovered from the strewn field of a known fall. Otherwise, if you simply find a piece of meteorite, whether whole individual or not, you quite possibly will never know if it is the biggest piece from that fall or not. I hope that is close to being correct. Mike in CO On Nov 9, 2009, at 8:37 PM, Pete Shugar wrote: > What is the smallest Main Mass and as a bonus > question, who has it? > > I hold a NWA 1953 @ 11.73 gm. > Anyone got a smaller one? > Pete IMCA 1733 > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Tue Nov 10 15:29:01 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:29:01 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Mystery holes in Grovedale roof could be meteorites, says expert Message-ID: Interesting stuff Greg S. http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/article/2009/11/10/120101_news.html Mystery holes in Grovedale roof could be meteorites, says expert Kerri-Ann Hobbs November 10th, 2009 RIDDLE: An SES volunteer examines the holes left in a Grovedale roof on Saturday. Residents heard a loud bang but the cause is a mystery.Photo: ANETA ALFORD LARGE holes were blown in the roofs of two Grovedale homes on Saturday afternoon, baffling emergency workers and weather experts. One couple reported hearing a loud bang, while a neighbour also heard the crashing sound about 3.30pm. SES and police told Sturt Court couple Tony and May Giuffre the damage was caused by an unusual weather phenomena called a microburst. But weather expert Lindsay Smail dismissed that claim because that weather pattern was only associated with thunderstorms, and none were present on the weekend. What do you think happened? Tell us using the feedback form below The Astronomical Society of Victoria's president Perry Vlahos predicted a marble-sized piece of space junk or meteorite could have caused the damage and the evidence would be found in the area around the two houses. "We were sitting in the lounge room and it sounded like something was coming through the rood," Mr Giuffre said. "We both jumped up. "When I did go outside it looked like something had fallen onto our roof and my initial thought was a wheel of a plane had come through the roof. "Even the next door neighbour heard the bang and they came out to see what happened." SES South Barwon controller Josh Hutton said the mystery had been put down to a microburst because a similar incident had happened in the area a couple of years ago and witnesses reported seeing mini tornadoes hit houses. "At first we started worrying that something had come out of the sky," Mr Hutton said. "But then we found another house in the next street with the same holes. "We had the police involved to make sure it was all legitimate." Lindsay Smail, of Geelong Weather Services, dismissed the weather claims, saying there were no atmospheric disturbances over the area at the weekend. "I would guess that the weather is innocent," Mr Smail said. "Sometimes a bit of plane falls off and because of the velocity that that junk assumes by the time it reaches the ground it can do a lot of damage, even though it may be only very small. "Unless the authorities used a finetooth comb and worked their way around the area they might never find what it was." _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From gmhupe at htn.net Tue Nov 10 16:27:31 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:27:31 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] NEW - NWA 4932 Lunar - AD Message-ID: <6498FC8EF10B4AA3BA347CE10B10817F@Gregor> Dear List Members, I would like to announce a NEW and unpaired Lunar meteorite that I have had for two years. Since that time, no pairings have been found, this new Impact Melt Breccia (IMB) stands by itself in the world's known lunar inventory! "Thank You" Michael Johnson for dedicating November 9, 2009 as the 'Picture of the Day' for NWA 4932! NWA 4932 is an unusual new lunar meteorite found in the Sahara Desert in October 2007. A single 93.3 gram stone was found, and after continuous searching of the area since the find, no pairings have been recovered. Being an Impact Melt Breccia (IMB), it takes a very high polish, which strongly displays the minute details such as very fine-grained texture, many small white clasts and occasional nickel-iron metal grains dispersed throughout the stone. These metal grains have been analyzed by a prominent laboratory and have the same composition as that of enstatite chondrite metal (from previous impactors that struck the Moon). NWA 4932 is compositionally very similar to material brought back to Earth by NASA's Apollo 16 mission in 1972. With such a low Total Known Weight, there are only a small handful of slices available to collectors and museums. Each slice has been expertly polished to a high luster on one side to display the characteristics of this lunaite. Here is a list of the only available specimens of NWA 4932, four have already sold!! 24.5g Main Mass http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00001.jpg 4.020g ps http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00004.jpg 3.844g cs http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00005.jpg 3.776g ps http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00006.jpg 3.332g cs http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00007.jpg 3.112g cs http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00008.jpg 2.812g cs http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00009.jpg 284mg ps http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00012.jpg 268mg ps http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00013.jpg 230mg ps http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00014.jpg 156mg ps http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00015.jpg 852mg fragment http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00017.jpg 3.548g cut fragment http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00018.jpg cs = complete slice ps = part slice If you are interested in one of these fascinating stand-alone lunar specimens, please email me Off-List for pricing. Thank you for your interest, and if you are just looking, please enjoy the photos! I also have eBay auctions of other planetary and other rare meteorites ending tomorrow (Wednesday, Nov. 11th). Of particular interest is a small piece of Hoba Ataxite, sizable specimens of achondrites and other goodies. Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault From Metorman46 at aol.com Tue Nov 10 18:31:03 2009 From: Metorman46 at aol.com (Metorman46 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:31:03 EST Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 10, 2009 Message-ID: Awesome photo Rob,Thanks for sharing. Herman Archer IMCA # 2770. From spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 10 19:09:03 2009 From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com (Melanie Matthews) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:09:03 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco? Message-ID: Hi list, Please help - I mailed a payment to a Moroccan dealer for a lot of chondrites via a paper check, he got it today, but he told me that the banks over there don't recognize it even though it is completely valid. I can't afford the shipping costs through FedEx for the lot I want - which will be over $200 CND... so what other less expensive options do you suggest? Thank you in advance ----------- Melanie IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 ? Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get! _________________________________________________________________ Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic deals on Windows 7 now http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818 From wahlperry at aol.com Tue Nov 10 19:19:09 2009 From: wahlperry at aol.com (wahlperry at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:19:09 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] NEW - NWA 4932 Lunar - AD In-Reply-To: <6498FC8EF10B4AA3BA347CE10B10817F@Gregor> References: <6498FC8EF10B4AA3BA347CE10B10817F@Gregor> Message-ID: <8CC307BB8FA032D-5684-E941@webmail-d043.sysops.aol.com> Hi Greg, Congratulations on your New Lunar! Sonny -----Original Message----- From: Greg Hupe To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:27 pm Subject: [meteorite-list] NEW - NWA 4932 Lunar - AD Dear List Members,? ? I would like to announce a NEW and unpaired Lunar meteorite that I have had for two years. Since that time, no pairings have been found, this new Impact Melt Breccia (IMB) stands by itself in the world's known lunar inventory! "Thank You" Michael Johnson for dedicating November 9, 2009 as the 'Picture of the Day' for NWA 4932!? ? NWA 4932 is an unusual new lunar meteorite found in the Sahara Desert in October 2007. A single 93.3 gram stone was found, and after continuous searching of the area since the find, no pairings have been recovered. Being an Impact Melt Breccia (IMB), it takes a very high polish, which strongly displays the minute details such as very fine-grained texture, many small white clasts and occasional nickel-iron metal grains dispersed throughout the stone. These metal grains have been analyzed by a prominent laboratory and have the same composition as that of enstatite chondrite metal (from previous impactors that struck the Moon).? ? ? NWA 4932 is compositionally very similar to material brought back to Earth by NASA's Apollo 16 mission in 1972. With such a low Total Known Weight, there are only a small handful of slices available to collectors and museums. Each slice has been expertly polished to a high luster on one side to display the characteristics of this lunaite.? ? Here is a list of the only available specimens of NWA 4932, four have already sold!!? ? 24.5g Main Mass? http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00001.jpg? 4.020g ps? http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00004.jpg? 3.844g cs? http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00005.jpg? 3.776g ps? http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00006.jpg? 3.332g cs? http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00007.jpg? 3.112g cs? http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00008.jpg? 2.812g cs? http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00009.jpg? 284mg ps? http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00012.jpg? 268mg ps? http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00013.jpg? 230mg ps? http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00014.jpg? 156mg ps? http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00015.jpg? 852mg fragment? http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00017.jpg? 3.548g cut fragment? http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00018.jpg? ? cs = complete slice? ps = part slice? ? If you are interested in one of these fascinating stand-alone lunar specimens, please email me Off-List for pricing.? ? Thank you for your interest, and if you are just looking, please enjoy the photos!? ? I also have eBay auctions of other planetary and other rare meteorites ending tomorrow (Wednesday, Nov. 11th). Of particular interest is a small piece of Hoba Ataxite, sizable specimens of achondrites and other goodies. Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault? ? Best regards,? Greg? ? ====================? Greg Hupe? The Hupe Collection? NaturesVault (eBay)? gmhupe at htn.net? www.LunarRock.com? IMCA 3163? ====================? Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault? ? ______________________________________________? http://www.meteoritecentral.com? Meteorite-list mailing list? Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com? http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list? = From gmhupe at htn.net Tue Nov 10 19:23:10 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:23:10 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] NEW - NWA 4932 Lunar - AD References: <6498FC8EF10B4AA3BA347CE10B10817F@Gregor> <8CC307BB8FA032D-5684-E941@webmail-d043.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <6A6A6E6B891E441C9AF15F93430AD73A@Gregor> Hi Sonny and the couple dozen other List members who have sent "Congrats" and well wishes, I appreciate it! Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NEW - NWA 4932 Lunar - AD Hi Greg, Congratulations on your New Lunar! Sonny -----Original Message----- From: Greg Hupe To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:27 pm Subject: [meteorite-list] NEW - NWA 4932 Lunar - AD Dear List Members, I would like to announce a NEW and unpaired Lunar meteorite that I have had for two years. Since that time, no pairings have been found, this new Impact Melt Breccia (IMB) stands by itself in the world's known lunar inventory! "Thank You" Michael Johnson for dedicating November 9, 2009 as the 'Picture of the Day' for NWA 4932! NWA 4932 is an unusual new lunar meteorite found in the Sahara Desert in October 2007. A single 93.3 gram stone was found, and after continuous searching of the area since the find, no pairings have been recovered. Being an Impact Melt Breccia (IMB), it takes a very high polish, which strongly displays the minute details such as very fine-grained texture, many small white clasts and occasional nickel-iron metal grains dispersed throughout the stone. These metal grains have been analyzed by a prominent laboratory and have the same composition as that of enstatite chondrite metal (from previous impactors that struck the Moon). NWA 4932 is compositionally very similar to material brought back to Earth by NASA's Apollo 16 mission in 1972. With such a low Total Known Weight, there are only a small handful of slices available to collectors and museums. Each slice has been expertly polished to a high luster on one side to display the characteristics of this lunaite. Here is a list of the only available specimens of NWA 4932, four have already sold!! 24.5g Main Mass http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00001.jpg 4.020g ps http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00004.jpg 3.844g cs http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00005.jpg 3.776g ps http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00006.jpg 3.332g cs http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00007.jpg 3.112g cs http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00008.jpg 2.812g cs http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00009.jpg 284mg ps http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00012.jpg 268mg ps http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00013.jpg 230mg ps http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00014.jpg 156mg ps http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00015.jpg 852mg fragment http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00017.jpg 3.548g cut fragment http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4932/dsc00018.jpg cs = complete slice ps = part slice If you are interested in one of these fascinating stand-alone lunar specimens, please email me Off-List for pricing. Thank you for your interest, and if you are just looking, please enjoy the photos! I also have eBay auctions of other planetary and other rare meteorites ending tomorrow (Wednesday, Nov. 11th). Of particular interest is a small piece of Hoba Ataxite, sizable specimens of achondrites and other goodies. Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list = From gmhupe at htn.net Tue Nov 10 19:22:03 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:22:03 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco? References: Message-ID: "Carefully!" Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melanie Matthews" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:09 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco? Hi list, Please help - I mailed a payment to a Moroccan dealer for a lot of chondrites via a paper check, he got it today, but he told me that the banks over there don't recognize it even though it is completely valid. I can't afford the shipping costs through FedEx for the lot I want - which will be over $200 CND... so what other less expensive options do you suggest? Thank you in advance ----------- Melanie IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get! _________________________________________________________________ Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic deals on Windows 7 now http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818 ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From magellon.ken at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 20:23:29 2009 From: magellon.ken at gmail.com (Ken Newton) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:23:29 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Anyone remember this? In-Reply-To: <20091109135532.WZLYM.96907.imail@fed1rmwml45> References: <5C025100-1F06-46B3-BA42-9E5C2AD87367@dof3.com> <20091109135532.WZLYM.96907.imail@fed1rmwml45> Message-ID: http://meteorite-identification.com/mwnews/05112007.html Read both articles and you will see that the second assumption that this was 'space debris' is based more on where it was found rather than its actual make-up. The 'where it was found assumption' is one of the most common mistakes in meteorite identification. Best, Ken From cynapse at charter.net Tue Nov 10 21:16:46 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:16:46 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Wanna free micrograph? In-Reply-To: <7C640E28081AEE4B952F008D1E913F1702122CFF@0461-its-exmb04.us.saic.com> References: <5C025100-1F06-46B3-BA42-9E5C2AD87367@dof3.com> <20091109135532.WZLYM.96907.imail@fed1rmwml45> <7C640E28081AEE4B952F008D1E913F1702122CFF@0461-its-exmb04.us.saic.com> Message-ID: Probably not much interesting detail that would show up in a metorite sample with this (no colors like a thin section), but you might want to try something. http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/11/an_interesting_offer_from_aspe.php From rocksfromspace at yahoo.com Wed Nov 11 06:17:26 2009 From: rocksfromspace at yahoo.com (Michael Johnson) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 03:17:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 11, 2009 Message-ID: <944997.82960.qm@web113013.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_11_2009.html From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Wed Nov 11 08:21:15 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 8:21:15 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Newly Published Junk Science on Younger Dryas Impact Message-ID: <20091111082115.1JR69.697879.imail@eastrmwml37> Dear Friends, Dr. Firestone has outdid himself by publishing what is a rather wretched piece of junk science on the Younger Dryas impact in a new web "Journal". This paper is: Firestone, R. B., 2009, The Case for the Younger Dryas Extraterrestrial Impact Event: Mammoth, Megafauna, and Clovis Extinction, 12,900 Years Ago. Journal of Cosmology. vol. 2, pp. 256-285. http://journalofcosmology.com/Extinction105.html I say that this paper is wretched because it shows a clear lack of understanding of the published literature concerning various aspects of geology and geomorphology For example, it completely confuses the playa lakes of the High Plains with the Carolina Bays. He either ignore or overlooks data and ignoring the research, including dating of these features, that has been conducted by Dr. Vance Holliday and others that completely refutes any association between these lakes and the hypothesized Younger Dryas impact. In addition, in this paper, Dr. Firestone, excluding the rather small Charity Shoal feature whose age is still unknown, again claims without any credible evidence that there are major impact structures in the Great Lakes. This is based upon the unsupported and refutable claim that glacial erosion is incapable of producing the deepest parts of the Great Lakes. No mention is made of the documented fact that undisturbed glacial tills and lake sediments predating the Younger Dryas impact fill the lake bottom depressions, which Dr. Firestone claims to Younger Dryas Impact craters. In another case, Dr. Firestone dismisses out of hand, without any credible explanation, the OSL dates of Dr. Alexander Ivester of the Carolina Bays as being the result of improper sampling. Having corresponded with Dr. Ivester I know that he was very, very careful in his sampling. The unsupported claims by Dr. Firestone of Dr. Ivester engaging in careless sampling is not only entirely unfounded, but is a quite ignorant and completely undeserved insult on Dr. Ivester's ability as a very exacting Quaternary geologist and geochronologist. Dr. Ivester is very well trained in geomorphology and Quaternary and was trained by one of the best Quaternary geologists in business in the Southeast, Dr. David Leigh. Also, if Dr. Firestone would look at the geologicalmaps of the Pleistocene terraces of the North Atlantic coastal plain, he would find that the Carolina Bays are only found on fluvial and coast-wise terraces that are older than Marine Isotope Stage 2, which readily refutes any claim that they formed by a much younger Younger Dryas impact. All this paper will accomplish is cause geologists and Quaternary geologists to ignore the serious research being conducted by other scientists into the validity of Younger Dryas hypothesis. This paper shows the same basic illiteracy in geology and geomorphology that characterizes "The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes: How a Stone-Age Comet Changed the Course of World Culture." Yours, Paul H. From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Wed Nov 11 08:21:51 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 8:21:51 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Newly Published Junk Science on Younger Dryas Impact Message-ID: <20091111082151.JHE1W.697885.imail@eastrmwml37> Dear Friends, Dr. Firestone has outdid himself by publishing what is a rather wretched piece of junk science on the Younger Dryas impact in a new web "Journal". This paper is: Firestone, R. B., 2009, The Case for the Younger Dryas Extraterrestrial Impact Event: Mammoth, Megafauna, and Clovis Extinction, 12,900 Years Ago. Journal of Cosmology. vol. 2, pp. 256-285. http://journalofcosmology.com/Extinction105.html I say that this paper is wretched because it shows a clear lack of understanding of the published literature concerning various aspects of geology and geomorphology For example, it completely confuses the playa lakes of the High Plains with the Carolina Bays. He either ignore or overlooks data and ignoring the research, including dating of these features, that has been conducted by Dr. Vance Holliday and others that completely refutes any association between these lakes and the hypothesized Younger Dryas impact. In addition, in this paper, Dr. Firestone, excluding the rather small Charity Shoal feature whose age is still unknown, again claims without any credible evidence that there are major impact structures in the Great Lakes. This is based upon the unsupported and refutable claim that glacial erosion is incapable of producing the deepest parts of the Great Lakes. No mention is made of the documented fact that undisturbed glacial tills and lake sediments predating the Younger Dryas impact fill the lake bottom depressions, which Dr. Firestone claims to Younger Dryas Impact craters. In another case, Dr. Firestone dismisses out of hand, without any credible explanation, the OSL dates of Dr. Alexander Ivester of the Carolina Bays as being the result of improper sampling. Having corresponded with Dr. Ivester I know that he was very, very careful in his sampling. The unsupported claims by Dr. Firestone of Dr. Ivester engaging in careless sampling is not only entirely unfounded, but is a quite ignorant and completely undeserved insult on Dr. Ivester's ability as a very exacting Quaternary geologist and geochronologist. Dr. Ivester is very well trained in geomorphology and Quaternary and was trained by one of the best Quaternary geologists in business in the Southeast, Dr. David Leigh. Also, if Dr. Firestone would look at the geologicalmaps of the Pleistocene terraces of the North Atlantic coastal plain, he would find that the Carolina Bays are only found on fluvial and coast-wise terraces that are older than Marine Isotope Stage 2, which readily refutes any claim that they formed by a much younger Younger Dryas impact. All this paper will accomplish is cause geologists and Quaternary geologists to ignore the serious research being conducted by other scientists into the validity of Younger Dryas hypothesis. This paper shows the same basic illiteracy in geology and geomorphology that characterizes "The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes: How a Stone-Age Comet Changed the Course of World Culture." Yours, Paul H. From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Wed Nov 11 08:28:24 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 8:28:24 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Apologies For Double Posting Message-ID: <20091111082824.8XO5U.697986.imail@eastrmwml37> Dear Friends, I apologize for double posting. I double clicked when I should not have. Paul H. From carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 11 08:50:41 2009 From: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com (Carl 's) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 05:50:41 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco? Message-ID: Hi Melanie, All, At this time I don't see myself buying stones directly from a Moroccan dealer but there may come a time when I would be tempted to. I hope the more experienced meteorite buyers would share knowledge on "How to," pitfalls to avoid and any advice other than, "carefully." Mel, I'm a bit confused by your post. You said you sent a check but it sounded like you didn't figure in the shipping costs? Also because you sent a check, the seller doesn't accept PayPal or an International money order? How does one then pay for stones in Morocco? Carl > > "Carefully!" > > Best regards, > Greg > > Hi list, > > Please help - I mailed a payment to a Moroccan dealer for a lot of > chondrites via a paper check, he got it today, but he told me that the banks > over there don't recognize it even though it is completely valid. I can't > afford the shipping costs through FedEx for the lot I want - which will be > over $200 CND... so what other less expensive options do you suggest? > > Thank you in advance > > ----------- > Melanie _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From cynapse at charter.net Wed Nov 11 09:16:39 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:16:39 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Newly Published Junk Science on Younger Dryas Impact In-Reply-To: <20091111082151.JHE1W.697885.imail@eastrmwml37> References: <20091111082151.JHE1W.697885.imail@eastrmwml37> Message-ID: <4ghlf595bdkjs3gl7dlt35bcjq5oaejg8g@4ax.com> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 8:21:51 -0500, you wrote: >scientists into the validity of Younger Dryas hypothesis. This paper >shows the same basic illiteracy in geology and geomorphology >that characterizes "The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes: How a >Stone-Age Comet Changed the Course of World Culture." Hi, Paul. Did you read that book? Did you manage to finish it? I got through around half of it before setting it aside, and have never got back to it. I did read enough to see his original idea of the impactor being 500-miles wide, the density of a snowflake, produced in the atmosphere of a supernova, and traveling at interstellar velocities. From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Wed Nov 11 09:34:47 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 9:34:47 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Newly Published Junk Science on Younger Dryas Impact Message-ID: <20091111093448.3J5KB.698985.imail@eastrmwml37> Darren Garrison quoted: "On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 8:21:51 -0500, you wrote: scientists into the validity of Younger Dryas hypothesis. This paper shows the same basic illiteracy in geology and geomorphology that characterizes "The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes: How a"Stone-Age Comet Changed the Course of World Culture." Darren asked "Hi, Paul. Did you read that book?" Yes, I read the book. After finishing it, I was thankful that I only paid fifty cents for a hard copy of it at a garage sale. The accuracy with which the book correctly explained and represented basic geologic principles and the scientific literature that it cited was somewhere between the worst of the term papers that I graded in Physical and Historical Geology laboratories and books written by Young Earth creationists. The few geologist and geomorphologists, who I know have bothered to read this book have very similar opinions of it. Darrel wrote: "Did you manage to finish it?" Yes, I did. I took a bunch of notes for a review of the book that I was going to do for the Hall of Maat web page, but never found the time to write. Yours, Paul H. From mikewren at gilanet.com Tue Nov 10 12:27:48 2009 From: mikewren at gilanet.com (michael cottingham) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:27:48 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: Auctions End Tomorrow... Most Certainly Worth A Look! Message-ID: Hello, Not sure if I will be able to get highlights up this week...too busy with children! So here is one link to get them all! All auctions underway.... http://shop.ebay.com:80/meteorite-collector/m.html?LH_Auction=1&_trksid=p3911.c0.m301 Thanks and Best Wishes Michael From drtanuki at yahoo.com Wed Nov 11 10:39:29 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 07:39:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Kazakhstan Meteor Over Atomic Power Station 10NOV09 Message-ID: <111335.1859.qm@web53104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Kazakhstan Meteor/Meteorite News- Kazakhstan Meteor over Atomic Power Station reported 11NOV09 ???? ??? ??????? ??????? ?????? ? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ???????? Vesti.kz - Almaty,Kazakhstan ? ???? ??? ??????? ???????? ?? ??????????? ??????? ?????????????? ?????? ???????? ????????, ???????? Life News. ???? ??????? ????????? ???? ?? ??????... [more] Russian-English machine translation: In the sky above the Tomsk atomic power station the meteorite has burned down Vesti.kz - Almaty,Kazakhstan The trace of falling of a heavenly body on the chamber of a cellular telephone was fixed in the evening on the last Tuesday, on November, 10th, by the 20-years native of village Tahtamyshevo. ... [more] http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/ Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo From epgrondine at yahoo.com Wed Nov 11 11:30:20 2009 From: epgrondine at yahoo.com (E.P. Grondine) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:30:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] YD impact - doing as best they can Message-ID: <768423.12943.qm@web36903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Paul - All I can do is re-iterate that there is no reason for several of the peoples to have made up stories of this impact, other than that it did occur. So I have a very pro-impact bias, which you can dismiss as nonsense based on fairly tales if you like. Except for the sudden drop in population evidenced by the ending of quarry usage. While Firestone is a nuclear physicist with little geological training, in point of fact the layer with the markers is thin - there was not much material deposited by this impact, unlike Chicxulub and Shiva. So unless Ivester was very careful in his sampling, he could have missed it. Others have elsewhere. We know we have annual spherule deposit, which NASA keeps trumpeting, but NOT impact nano-diamonds. Also, it is entirely possible that neutron production in impact threw off Ivester's OSL dates. (Odessa again.) As far as one point of impact goes, I can agree with you about not being in the Lakes. Why? The Five Nations would not have survived and left us their account of it. I still favor the Kiscoty, Alberta structure. Perhaps there are other similar structures evidencing impacts in ice sheets elsewhere, but then NASA is spending $0 looking for them. Perhaps the Carolina Bays actually evidence secondary ejecta from another earlier impact? But then that would show that the impact hazard is even more serious, something which NASA is reluctant to admit. Junk science? You get what you pay for, and from NASA anymore you get even less, i.e. Ares 1. When has NASA ever funded pro-impact research? What serious work are they funding, except those engaged in denial? What help did they provide Firestone, or anybody arguing for this impact? Tankersley at Sheriden Cave, near Sandusky, for example. Where is the money? Is this because this was a comet impact, something which Morrison et al vigorously deny ever occur? Dr. Firestone must be getting closer to nailing this one down, or he would not upset you so. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas >Paul wrote: Dear Friends, Dr. Firestone has outdid himself by publishing what is a rather wretched piece of junk science on the Younger Dryas impact in a new web "Journal". This paper is: Firestone, R. B., 2009, The Case for the Younger Dryas Extraterrestrial Impact Event: Mammoth, Megafauna, and Clovis Extinction, 12,900 Years Ago. Journal of Cosmology. vol. 2, pp. 256-285. http://journalofcosmology.com/Extinction105.html I say that this paper is wretched because it shows a clear lack of understanding of the published literature concerning various aspects of geology and geomorphology For example, it completely confuses the playa lakes of the High Plains with the Carolina Bays. He either ignore or overlooks data and ignoring the research, including dating of these features, that has been conducted by Dr. Vance Holliday and others that completely refutes any association between these lakes and the hypothesized Younger Dryas impact. In addition, in this paper, Dr. Firestone, excluding the rather small Charity Shoal feature whose age is still unknown, again claims without any credible evidence that there are major impact structures in the Great Lakes. This is based upon the unsupported and refutable claim that glacial erosion is incapable of producing the deepest parts of the Great Lakes. No mention is made of the documented fact that undisturbed glacial tills and lake sediments predating the Younger Dryas impact fill the lake bottom depressions, which Dr. Firestone claims to Younger Dryas Impact craters. In another case, Dr. Firestone dismisses out of hand, without any credible explanation, the OSL dates of Dr. Alexander Ivester of the Carolina Bays as being the result of improper sampling. Having corresponded with Dr. Ivester I know that he was very, very careful in his sampling. The unsupported claims by Dr. Firestone of Dr. Ivester engaging in careless sampling is not only entirely unfounded, but is a quite ignorant and completely undeserved insult on Dr. Ivester's ability as a very exacting Quaternary geologist and geochronologist. Dr. Ivester is very well trained in geomorphology and Quaternary and was trained by one of the best Quaternary geologists in business in the Southeast, Dr. David Leigh. Also, if Dr. Firestone would look at the geologicalmaps of the Pleistocene terraces of the North Atlantic coastal plain, he would find that the Carolina Bays are only found on fluvial and coast-wise terraces that are older than Marine Isotope Stage 2, which readily refutes any claim that they formed by a much younger Younger Dryas impact. All this paper will accomplish is cause geologists and Quaternary geologists to ignore the serious research being conducted by other scientists into the validity of Younger Dryas hypothesis. This paper shows the same basic illiteracy in geology and geomorphology that characterizes "The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes: How a Stone-Age Comet Changed the Course of World Culture." Yours, Paul H. From meteoriteman at comcast.net Wed Nov 11 12:34:04 2009 From: meteoriteman at comcast.net (meteoriteman at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:34:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [meteorite-list] Test - delete Message-ID: <1478737818.1345891257960844499.JavaMail.root@sz0098a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> test From meteoriteshow at free.fr Wed Nov 11 14:24:31 2009 From: meteoriteshow at free.fr (meteoriteshow at free.fr) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:24:31 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - ebay auctions ending on Saturday Message-ID: <1257967471.4afb0f6f22abd@imp.free.fr> Dear Fellow Listees, Our ebay auctions ending on Saturday can be seen at: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ50QQsassZmeteoriteshow They include: 1- DaG 947 - LL6 - 1.25g endcut Endcut weighing 1.25g, dimensions 15x9x7mm Endcut with FUSION CRUST STILL AT $1.00 STARTING PRICE!!! NO BID YET!!!!!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330371296035 2- HaH 249 - H5 - 217g MAIN MASS MAIN MASS weighing 217.0g, dimensions 66x62x36mm Partially covered with Fusion Crust relics, "PUZZLE", almost complete meteorite less the type specimen (see pictures) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330371296314 3- NWA 052 (Kem-Kem) L5 - 8.3g endpiece Endpiece weighing 8.3g, Dimensions: 55x11x8mm Displays rests of fusion crust. STILL AT $1.00 STARTING PRICE!!! NO BID YET!!!!!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330371296514 4- NWA 4677 - 1.0g partslice #03 - EUCRITE Classification - Dr Barrat UMR 6538 (Domaines Oc?aniques) U.B.O.-I.U.E.M. (France) PARTSLICE #03, weighing 1.0g, dimensions ~21x15.8x1.25mm. Displays 2 lithologies and nice shock veins. Shipped in a display box (see pictures) STILL AT $1.00 STARTING PRICE!!! NO BID YET!!!!!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330371297628 5- SAH 02500 L3 - 216.0g "MONOLITH" "Monolith" weighing 216g, dimensions: 160x48x22mm. Enduct glued on a plexiglass stand for display (no varnish). Typical structure of SAH 02500 diplaying 2 lithologies, big inclusions & chondrules in a milkyway of metal flakes. STILL AT $1.00 STARTING PRICE!!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330371298286 6- ZAG H3-6 - 15.6g endcut - WITNESSED FALL! Endcut weighing 15.6g, Dimensions: 31x23x17mm Displays the usual 2 lithologies of ZAG, a nice big chondrule & slickensides. STILL AT $1.00 STARTING PRICE!!! NO BID YET!!!!!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330371298747 Thank you very much for watching and best wishes to ALL BIDDERS!!! Kind regards, Frederic Beroud http://www.meteoriteshow.com IMCA member # 2491 (http://www.imca.cc/) From meteoriteman at comcast.net Wed Nov 11 15:11:57 2009 From: meteoriteman at comcast.net (meteoriteman at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:11:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco? Message-ID: <1757453539.1424911257970317218.JavaMail.root@sz0098a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I made an attempt to buy a meteorite from a Morocco dealer that would only accept payment by wire transfer, bank to bank. The price of the meteorite was $65US and my bank wanted to charge me a fee of $40 to make the transfer. Unless you plan to buy in volume, this is not a good way to pay. I wonder why they won't take paypal? Jim K From fujmon at mac.com Wed Nov 11 15:25:36 2009 From: fujmon at mac.com (Gary Fujihara) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:25:36 -1000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco? In-Reply-To: <1757453539.1424911257970317218.JavaMail.root@sz0098a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1757453539.1424911257970317218.JavaMail.root@sz0098a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <8CA3F9D0-44ED-420A-99E1-EF38BFFBBF5E@mac.com> There is no paypal in Morocco. Mailing checks or money orders could be vulnerable to theft or the recipient subject to customs taxes, if the Moroccan banks accept them at all. Bank wire is the safest means of conducting business, but as Jim stated comes at a fee - in my case, $50 for transactions up to $3000, and incrementally increasing with the amount of funds being transferred. More suitable for bulk lot purchasing than small single items. Shipping from Morocco is another expense one must consider, and FedEx is not the only player - shop around. gary On Nov 11, 2009, at 10:11 AM, meteoriteman at comcast.net wrote: > > I made an attempt to buy a meteorite from a Morocco dealer that > would only accept payment by wire transfer, bank to bank. The price > of the meteorite was $65US and my bank wanted to charge me a fee of > $40 to make the transfer. Unless you plan to buy in volume, this is > not a good way to pay. I wonder why they won't take paypal? > > Jim K > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Gary Fujihara AstroDay Institute 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720 (808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com http://astroday.net From desam07 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 11 15:28:22 2009 From: desam07 at hotmail.com (HANS D.) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:28:22 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco? In-Reply-To: <1757453539.1424911257970317218.JavaMail.root@sz0098a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1757453539.1424911257970317218.JavaMail.root@sz0098a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: I sended $250 to a dealer in Morocco via Western Union, plus $10 fee, with no problems at all. Hans http://www.gaiawonders.com > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:11:57 +0000 > From: meteoriteman at comcast.net > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco? > > > I made an attempt to buy a meteorite from a Morocco dealer that would only accept payment by wire transfer, bank to bank. The price of the meteorite was $65US and my bank wanted to charge me a fee of $40 to make the transfer. Unless you plan to buy in volume, this is not a good way to pay. I wonder why they won't take paypal? > > Jim K > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From gmhupe at htn.net Wed Nov 11 17:13:14 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:13:14 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Overseas Shipping Delays?? Message-ID: <2B012AD8E4884A89B4BEBC12F56B01F5@Gregor> Dear List Members, It looks like the personnel layoffs at the US Post Office and overseas customs scrutinizing of packages has began to affect shipping times. I have received in one day, three different shipping related questions from three different eBay customers in three different countries, "When did you post the items?" All three of these people won eBay items from me that ended last Wednesday. less than one week ago! I do not understand the urgency unless it has to do with upcoming holidays, or if this is just an odd occurrence which I have very rarely been asked since I typically ship within a day or two of ended auction, if not same day! To all who win meteorite (or other) auctions from me on eBay, please be patient, you will receive your items as promised! In a related note, I have been told by my local post office worker that delays are happening locally, so I think we can expect some delays for overseas shipments as well. :-/ Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Wed Nov 11 17:18:53 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:18:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - Meteorites for sale Message-ID: <694579.89703.qm@web46401.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi to all, hope everyone is having a good day. I have some nice meteorites listed on ebay, great deals to be had. You can see my listings here: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZwanderingstarmeteoritesQQhtZ-1 As always, I offer 10% off fixed price listings for items purchased off ebay. Thanks for looking! Greg C. www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA 4682 From fuzzfoot at comcast.net Wed Nov 11 17:32:44 2009 From: fuzzfoot at comcast.net (Mike Bandli) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:32:44 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ad: Huge lot of meteorite articles Message-ID: <1FF24A8449A44DD7AE833EF9DE50A426@Bandli1> Dear List: I have a large lot of scientific meteorite articles and publications available for sale. It includes ~30 articles spanning over 30 years. There are some interesting items in there including an old photograph of some Norton County meteorites and I will throw in a bunch of extras. I?m looking for someone to take the entire lot for $40, which includes shipping anywhere in the world. Photo of the lot here: http://historicmeteorites.com/HistoricMeteorites/Lot/IMAG001.JPG If interested, please contact me privately. Thanks! ----------------------------------- Mike Bandli Historic Meteorites www.HistoricMeteorites.com IMCA?#5765 ----------------------------------- From fuzzfoot at comcast.net Wed Nov 11 18:00:53 2009 From: fuzzfoot at comcast.net (Mike Bandli) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:00:53 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ad: Huge lot of meteorite articles In-Reply-To: <1FF24A8449A44DD7AE833EF9DE50A426@Bandli1> References: <1FF24A8449A44DD7AE833EF9DE50A426@Bandli1> Message-ID: Lot is SOLD. Yikes! Lots of replies, thanks! ----------------------------------- Mike Bandli Historic Meteorites www.HistoricMeteorites.com IMCA #5765 Member, Meteoritical Society ----------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Mike Bandli Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 2:33 PM To: 'Meteorite-list' Subject: [meteorite-list] Ad: Huge lot of meteorite articles Dear List: I have a large lot of scientific meteorite articles and publications available for sale. It includes ~30 articles spanning over 30 years. There are some interesting items in there including an old photograph of some Norton County meteorites and I will throw in a bunch of extras. I?m looking for someone to take the entire lot for $40, which includes shipping anywhere in the world. Photo of the lot here: http://historicmeteorites.com/HistoricMeteorites/Lot/IMAG001.JPG If interested, please contact me privately. Thanks! ----------------------------------- Mike Bandli Historic Meteorites www.HistoricMeteorites.com IMCA?#5765 ----------------------------------- ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Wed Nov 11 19:00:23 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:00:23 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Quation about Lodranites Message-ID: List: I have a question about the meteorite class 'Lodranite'.? I have looked at the bulletin and there are 26 Lodranites listed; of these, 15 where found by 2003 and had a total weight of 2.28 kg.? Now since 2006, 11 have been found weighing 5.5 kg.? This is an amazing trend; out of the total weight (7.78 kg) of Lodranites ever found, 5.5 kg or 70% have been discovered during the last 3-1/2 years.? Wow!! Is this typical for all the finds in NWA over the last 10 years?? Do you think it will continue?? What will it do to the value?? Do other rare achondrites (Mars or Lunars) show the same trend from finds in NWA? Thanks, Greg S. _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From astroroks at hotmail.com Wed Nov 11 19:13:50 2009 From: astroroks at hotmail.com (Dennis Miller) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:13:50 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Vet Thanks! Message-ID: Hello Fellow Veterans! I hope you all had a great day! Thank you so much for your service to our country! And "Welcome Home!" Dennis Miller _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ From schroer at bigpond.com Wed Nov 11 17:17:04 2009 From: schroer at bigpond.com (W&S Schroer) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:47:04 +1030 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco? Message-ID: <39202F7E876240A5930F028F0C511B74@WERNER> Carl, Melanie, list, I've been buying minerals and meteorites from Moroccan dealers for several years and I've never had any problems. Some of their names pop up here on the list occasionally. I pay them by either using Western Union or simply by bank transfer. There is no PayPal in Morocco. In found the dealers to be very helpful and polite and - if you ask - they are often prepared to share the cost of shipping or they reduce the price of the items. Cheers Werner Schroer From tommy2005 at hvc.rr.com Wed Nov 11 19:40:30 2009 From: tommy2005 at hvc.rr.com (Tom Randall (KB2SMS)) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:40:30 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Apollo 11 landing site Message-ID: <0A0482B5-15AA-4C80-B529-E65C15B5AADC@hvc.rr.com> Darren, Yes, those photos are awesome indeed! Doubt it will shut up the "moon hoax" idiots though.... ---- http://home.roadrunner.com/~kb2sms/ From stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 11 20:55:30 2009 From: stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com (steve arnold) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:55:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] freebies and on another note Message-ID: <237682.12819.qm@web57808.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi again list.All 20 freebies are gone.Will go out this weekend.When they go I will send each one of you an email.Also do alot of dealers or collecters take credit cards? What I mean is,if I want to buy something and I give you my number,will it be taken for payment.No paypal.I would like to know,it will make buying a little easier. ?Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! From abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com Wed Nov 11 21:22:23 2009 From: abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com (Abdelaziz Alhyane) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:22:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <153717.54263.qm@web45411.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear List members, In Morocco, here is no Paypal as it is not allowed to get the currency out of country, we can buy online or send money out of country, but if you have a company and want to import something, you need to provide papers and if you have a son studying in canada, USA or europe, you have a limite to send him monthly, about $500-$600. We have 3 payment methodes : Western Union ; the most expensive, MoneyGram : cheap way, available in Post offices in US, Canada and UK. Bank Transfer : is the best even it takes 3-7 days, the bank take from the money their commission and when changing currencies ( ex : they get $1000 from your transaction for 7.65 MAD and sell it to Bank Almaghreb for 7.68) that means they do not buy the devise from you the same value in the market. Better you get back your check and then make the payment using one of the 3 ways. Shipping Methodes ; Chronopost ; the worst in the world Fedex : excellent, they even offer discounts and they have options Parcel post : excellent, cheap but takes a while, guaranteed, I was told that Fedex delivers their packages. DHL : excellent, I just hate the girl works there . EMS : Never worked with Airfreight ; large countities 100kg-up $520 for 100kg. GREG"S "CAREFULLY" AREN'T SENDING MONEY TO MOROCCO NOWADAYS? AREN'T YOU GETTING SHIPMENTS? LET OTHERS DO IT AND DO NOT BE SELFISH One last thing, I don't understand how the moroccan did not know about all the payments methodes since he is selling meteorites, even beginners know western union. My best Aziz Alhyane --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Carl 's wrote: > From: Carl 's > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco? > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 5:50 AM > > Hi Melanie, All, > > At this time I don't see myself buying stones directly from > a Moroccan dealer but there may come a time when I would be > tempted to. I hope the more experienced meteorite buyers > would share knowledge on "How to," pitfalls to avoid and any > advice other than, "carefully." > > Mel, I'm a bit confused by your post. You said you sent a > check but it sounded like you didn't figure in the shipping > costs? Also because you sent a check, the seller doesn't > accept PayPal or an International money order? How does one > then pay for stones in Morocco? > > Carl > > > > > > "Carefully!" > > > > Best regards, > > Greg > > > > > Hi list, > > > > Please help - I mailed a payment to a Moroccan dealer > for a lot of > > chondrites via a paper check, he got it today, but he > told me that the banks > > over there don't recognize it even though it is > completely valid. I can't > > afford the shipping costs through FedEx for the lot I > want - which will be > > over $200 CND... so what other less expensive options > do you suggest? > > > > Thank you in advance > > > > ----------- > > Melanie > > ??? > ???????? > ?????? ??? > ? > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com Wed Nov 11 21:26:25 2009 From: abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com (Abdelaziz Alhyane) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:26:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] test => ignore it plz In-Reply-To: <237682.12819.qm@web57808.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <990987.8008.qm@web45416.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> From gmhupe at htn.net Wed Nov 11 21:41:08 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:41:08 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco? References: <153717.54263.qm@web45411.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9EC54E7F8BF74D6A833459898272EFC1@Gregor> Hello Aziz Alhyane, you wrote, "GREG"S "CAREFULLY" AREN'T SENDING MONEY TO MOROCCO NOWADAYS? AREN'T YOU GETTING SHIPMENTS? LET OTHERS DO IT AND DO NOT BE SELFISH" I am not sure what you mean exactly, but my advice to ALL is to be CAREFUL when sending ANY payments to Moroccans. Did I strike a nerve, Aziz Alhyane?! You also mention that you, "...hate the girl works there [DHL]." I think she, and the others who work there to be quite friendly and have been extremely helpful to me in person or over the phone over the many years [I continue to work there]. Any further comments you have, Mr. Alhyane? Do not go fishing for replies, I will let you know how I feel! Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault ----- Original Message ----- From: "Abdelaziz Alhyane" To: ; "Carl 's" Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco? Dear List members, In Morocco, here is no Paypal as it is not allowed to get the currency out of country, we can buy online or send money out of country, but if you have a company and want to import something, you need to provide papers and if you have a son studying in canada, USA or europe, you have a limite to send him monthly, about $500-$600. We have 3 payment methodes : Western Union ; the most expensive, MoneyGram : cheap way, available in Post offices in US, Canada and UK. Bank Transfer : is the best even it takes 3-7 days, the bank take from the money their commission and when changing currencies ( ex : they get $1000 from your transaction for 7.65 MAD and sell it to Bank Almaghreb for 7.68) that means they do not buy the devise from you the same value in the market. Better you get back your check and then make the payment using one of the 3 ways. Shipping Methodes ; Chronopost ; the worst in the world Fedex : excellent, they even offer discounts and they have options Parcel post : excellent, cheap but takes a while, guaranteed, I was told that Fedex delivers their packages. DHL : excellent, I just hate the girl works there . EMS : Never worked with Airfreight ; large countities 100kg-up $520 for 100kg. GREG"S "CAREFULLY" AREN'T SENDING MONEY TO MOROCCO NOWADAYS? AREN'T YOU GETTING SHIPMENTS? LET OTHERS DO IT AND DO NOT BE SELFISH One last thing, I don't understand how the moroccan did not know about all the payments methodes since he is selling meteorites, even beginners know western union. My best Aziz Alhyane --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Carl 's wrote: > From: Carl 's > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to > Morocco? > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 5:50 AM > > Hi Melanie, All, > > At this time I don't see myself buying stones directly from > a Moroccan dealer but there may come a time when I would be > tempted to. I hope the more experienced meteorite buyers > would share knowledge on "How to," pitfalls to avoid and any > advice other than, "carefully." > > Mel, I'm a bit confused by your post. You said you sent a > check but it sounded like you didn't figure in the shipping > costs? Also because you sent a check, the seller doesn't > accept PayPal or an International money order? How does one > then pay for stones in Morocco? > > Carl > > > > > > "Carefully!" > > > > Best regards, > > Greg > > > > > Hi list, > > > > Please help - I mailed a payment to a Moroccan dealer > for a lot of > > chondrites via a paper check, he got it today, but he > told me that the banks > > over there don't recognize it even though it is > completely valid. I can't > > afford the shipping costs through FedEx for the lot I > want - which will be > > over $200 CND... so what other less expensive options > do you suggest? > > > > Thank you in advance > > > > ----------- > > Melanie > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com Wed Nov 11 21:55:55 2009 From: abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com (Abdelaziz Alhyane) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:55:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco? In-Reply-To: <9EC54E7F8BF74D6A833459898272EFC1@Gregor> Message-ID: <392220.22258.qm@web45416.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi Greg, You know what YOU mean, list members, Go shop anywhere, Morocco is one of the best shops to buy meteorites from, if you find cool meteorites from a Moroccan you don't know, just ask in the list and you get all infos for your decision. All the types of meteorites available from Morocco at great prices, don't miss the opportunity. My best Aziz --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Greg Hupe wrote: > From: Greg Hupe > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco? > To: "Abdelaziz Alhyane" , meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 6:41 PM > Hello Aziz Alhyane, > you wrote, "GREG"S "CAREFULLY" AREN'T SENDING MONEY TO > MOROCCO NOWADAYS? AREN'T YOU GETTING SHIPMENTS?? LET > OTHERS DO IT AND DO NOT BE SELFISH" > > I am not sure what you mean exactly, but my advice to ALL > is to be CAREFUL when sending ANY payments to Moroccans. Did > I strike a nerve, Aziz Alhyane?! You also mention that you, > "...hate the girl works there [DHL]." I think she, and the > others who work there to be quite friendly and have been > extremely helpful to me in person or over the phone over the > many years [I continue to work there]. > > Any further comments you have, Mr. Alhyane? Do not go > fishing for replies, I will let you know how I feel! > > Best regards, > Greg > > ==================== > Greg Hupe > The Hupe Collection > NaturesVault (eBay) > gmhupe at htn.net > www.LunarRock.com > IMCA 3163 > ==================== > Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Abdelaziz Alhyane" > > To: ; > "Carl 's" > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:22 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments > from Canada toMorocco? > > > Dear List members, > In Morocco, here is no Paypal as it is not allowed to get > the currency out of country, we can buy online or send money > out of country, but if you have a company and want to import > something, you need to provide papers and if you have a son > studying in canada, USA or europe, you have a limite to send > him monthly, about $500-$600. > We have 3 payment methodes : > Western Union ; the most expensive, > > MoneyGram : cheap way, available in Post offices in US, > Canada and UK. > > Bank Transfer : is the best even it takes 3-7 days, the > bank take from the money their commission and when changing > currencies ( ex : they get $1000 from your transaction for > 7.65 MAD and sell it to Bank Almaghreb for 7.68) that means > they do not buy the devise from you the same value in the > market. > > Better you get back your check and then make the payment > using one of the 3 ways. > > Shipping Methodes ; > Chronopost ; the worst in the world > Fedex? : excellent, they even offer discounts and they > have options > Parcel post : excellent, cheap but takes a while, > guaranteed, I was told that Fedex delivers their packages. > DHL : excellent, I just hate the girl works there . > EMS : Never worked with > Airfreight ; large countities 100kg-up $520 for 100kg. > > GREG"S "CAREFULLY" AREN'T SENDING MONEY TO MOROCCO > NOWADAYS? AREN'T YOU GETTING SHIPMENTS?? LET OTHERS DO > IT AND DO NOT BE SELFISH > > One last thing, I don't understand how the moroccan did not > know about all the payments methodes since he is selling > meteorites, even beginners know western union. > > My best > Aziz Alhyane > > --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Carl 's > wrote: > > > From: Carl 's > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send > payments from Canada to Morocco? > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 5:50 AM > > > > Hi Melanie, All, > > > > At this time I don't see myself buying stones directly > from > > a Moroccan dealer but there may come a time when I > would be > > tempted to. I hope the more experienced meteorite > buyers > > would share knowledge on "How to," pitfalls to avoid > and any > > advice other than, "carefully." > > > > Mel, I'm a bit confused by your post. You said you > sent a > > check but it sounded like you didn't figure in the > shipping > > costs? Also because you sent a check, the seller > doesn't > > accept PayPal or an International money order? How > does one > > then pay for stones in Morocco? > > > > Carl > > > > > > > > > > "Carefully!" > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Greg > > > > > > > > Hi list, > > > > > > Please help - I mailed a payment to a Moroccan > dealer > > for a lot of > > > chondrites via a paper check, he got it today, > but he > > told me that the banks > > > over there don't recognize it even though it is > > completely valid. I can't > > > afford the shipping costs through FedEx for the > lot I > > want - which will be > > > over $200 CND... so what other less expensive > options > > do you suggest? > > > > > > Thank you in advance > > > > > > ----------- > > > Melanie > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > From gmhupe at htn.net Wed Nov 11 22:08:24 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:08:24 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco? References: <392220.22258.qm@web45416.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My friend, Aziz (Alhyane), Yes, I do know what I mean, I know what YOU mean and I know what ALL Moroccans mean. When asked my opinion, ALL will know what I mean! My last reply to you [Moroccans] is this: "Treat your customers right, and you will not have problems!!" "Treat the meteorites right; as in, accuracy of type, TKW, self-pairings (fraud), etc., and you will not have problems!!!"... Aziz, I am much too busy to pussy-foot around with you. Get it right, or keep on going! Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault ----- Original Message ----- From: "Abdelaziz Alhyane" To: ; "Greg Hupe" Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco? Hi Greg, You know what YOU mean, list members, Go shop anywhere, Morocco is one of the best shops to buy meteorites from, if you find cool meteorites from a Moroccan you don't know, just ask in the list and you get all infos for your decision. All the types of meteorites available from Morocco at great prices, don't miss the opportunity. My best Aziz --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Greg Hupe wrote: > From: Greg Hupe > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada > toMorocco? > To: "Abdelaziz Alhyane" , > meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 6:41 PM > Hello Aziz Alhyane, > you wrote, "GREG"S "CAREFULLY" AREN'T SENDING MONEY TO > MOROCCO NOWADAYS? AREN'T YOU GETTING SHIPMENTS? LET > OTHERS DO IT AND DO NOT BE SELFISH" > > I am not sure what you mean exactly, but my advice to ALL > is to be CAREFUL when sending ANY payments to Moroccans. Did > I strike a nerve, Aziz Alhyane?! You also mention that you, > "...hate the girl works there [DHL]." I think she, and the > others who work there to be quite friendly and have been > extremely helpful to me in person or over the phone over the > many years [I continue to work there]. > > Any further comments you have, Mr. Alhyane? Do not go > fishing for replies, I will let you know how I feel! > > Best regards, > Greg > > ==================== > Greg Hupe > The Hupe Collection > NaturesVault (eBay) > gmhupe at htn.net > www.LunarRock.com > IMCA 3163 > ==================== > Click here for my current eBay auctions: > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Abdelaziz Alhyane" > > To: ; > "Carl 's" > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:22 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments > from Canada toMorocco? > > > Dear List members, > In Morocco, here is no Paypal as it is not allowed to get > the currency out of country, we can buy online or send money > out of country, but if you have a company and want to import > something, you need to provide papers and if you have a son > studying in canada, USA or europe, you have a limite to send > him monthly, about $500-$600. > We have 3 payment methodes : > Western Union ; the most expensive, > > MoneyGram : cheap way, available in Post offices in US, > Canada and UK. > > Bank Transfer : is the best even it takes 3-7 days, the > bank take from the money their commission and when changing > currencies ( ex : they get $1000 from your transaction for > 7.65 MAD and sell it to Bank Almaghreb for 7.68) that means > they do not buy the devise from you the same value in the > market. > > Better you get back your check and then make the payment > using one of the 3 ways. > > Shipping Methodes ; > Chronopost ; the worst in the world > Fedex : excellent, they even offer discounts and they > have options > Parcel post : excellent, cheap but takes a while, > guaranteed, I was told that Fedex delivers their packages. > DHL : excellent, I just hate the girl works there . > EMS : Never worked with > Airfreight ; large countities 100kg-up $520 for 100kg. > > GREG"S "CAREFULLY" AREN'T SENDING MONEY TO MOROCCO > NOWADAYS? AREN'T YOU GETTING SHIPMENTS? LET OTHERS DO > IT AND DO NOT BE SELFISH > > One last thing, I don't understand how the moroccan did not > know about all the payments methodes since he is selling > meteorites, even beginners know western union. > > My best > Aziz Alhyane > > --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Carl 's > wrote: > > > From: Carl 's > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send > payments from Canada to Morocco? > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 5:50 AM > > > > Hi Melanie, All, > > > > At this time I don't see myself buying stones directly > from > > a Moroccan dealer but there may come a time when I > would be > > tempted to. I hope the more experienced meteorite > buyers > > would share knowledge on "How to," pitfalls to avoid > and any > > advice other than, "carefully." > > > > Mel, I'm a bit confused by your post. You said you > sent a > > check but it sounded like you didn't figure in the > shipping > > costs? Also because you sent a check, the seller > doesn't > > accept PayPal or an International money order? How > does one > > then pay for stones in Morocco? > > > > Carl > > > > > > > > > > "Carefully!" > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Greg > > > > > > > > Hi list, > > > > > > Please help - I mailed a payment to a Moroccan > dealer > > for a lot of > > > chondrites via a paper check, he got it today, > but he > > told me that the banks > > > over there don't recognize it even though it is > > completely valid. I can't > > > afford the shipping costs through FedEx for the > lot I > > want - which will be > > > over $200 CND... so what other less expensive > options > > do you suggest? > > > > > > Thank you in advance > > > > > > ----------- > > > Melanie > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > From abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com Wed Nov 11 22:30:28 2009 From: abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com (Abdelaziz Alhyane) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:30:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <978412.75240.qm@web45402.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi Greg Hupe, Do you do the right things when you buy from moroccans ? Thanks God, I have no problem and I treat my customers right. Aziz Alhyane --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Greg Hupe wrote: > From: Greg Hupe > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco? > To: "Abdelaziz Alhyane" , meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 7:08 PM > My friend, Aziz (Alhyane), > > Yes, I do know what I mean, I know what YOU mean and I know > what ALL > Moroccans mean. When asked my opinion, ALL will know what I > mean! > > My last reply to you [Moroccans] is this: > "Treat your customers right, and you will not have > problems!!" > "Treat the meteorites right; as in, accuracy of type, TKW, > self-pairings > (fraud), etc., and you will not have problems!!!"... > > Aziz, I am much too busy to pussy-foot around with you. Get > it right, or > keep on going! > > Best regards, > Greg > > ==================== > Greg Hupe > The Hupe Collection > NaturesVault (eBay) > gmhupe at htn.net > www.LunarRock.com > IMCA 3163 > ==================== > Click here for my current eBay auctions: > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Abdelaziz Alhyane" > To: ; > "Greg Hupe" > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:55 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments > from Canada > toMorocco? > > > Hi Greg, > You know what YOU mean, > > list members, > Go shop anywhere, Morocco is one of the best shops to buy > meteorites from, > if you find cool meteorites from a Moroccan you don't know, > just ask in the > list and you get all infos for your decision. > All the types of meteorites available from Morocco at great > prices, don't > miss the opportunity. > > My best > Aziz > > --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Greg Hupe > wrote: > > > From: Greg Hupe > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send > payments from Canada > > toMorocco? > > To: "Abdelaziz Alhyane" , > > > meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 6:41 PM > > Hello Aziz Alhyane, > > you wrote, "GREG"S "CAREFULLY" AREN'T SENDING MONEY > TO > > MOROCCO NOWADAYS? AREN'T YOU GETTING SHIPMENTS? LET > > OTHERS DO IT AND DO NOT BE SELFISH" > > > > I am not sure what you mean exactly, but my advice to > ALL > > is to be CAREFUL when sending ANY payments to > Moroccans. Did > > I strike a nerve, Aziz Alhyane?! You also mention that > you, > > "...hate the girl works there [DHL]." I think she, and > the > > others who work there to be quite friendly and have > been > > extremely helpful to me in person or over the phone > over the > > many years [I continue to work there]. > > > > Any further comments you have, Mr. Alhyane? Do not go > > fishing for replies, I will let you know how I feel! > > > > Best regards, > > Greg > > > > ==================== > > Greg Hupe > > The Hupe Collection > > NaturesVault (eBay) > > gmhupe at htn.net > > www.LunarRock.com > > IMCA 3163 > > ==================== > > Click here for my current eBay auctions: > > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Abdelaziz > Alhyane" > > > > To: ; > > "Carl 's" > > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:22 PM > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send > payments > > from Canada toMorocco? > > > > > > Dear List members, > > In Morocco, here is no Paypal as it is not allowed to > get > > the currency out of country, we can buy online or send > money > > out of country, but if you have a company and want to > import > > something, you need to provide papers and if you have > a son > > studying in canada, USA or europe, you have a limite > to send > > him monthly, about $500-$600. > > We have 3 payment methodes : > > Western Union ; the most expensive, > > > > MoneyGram : cheap way, available in Post offices in > US, > > Canada and UK. > > > > Bank Transfer : is the best even it takes 3-7 days, > the > > bank take from the money their commission and when > changing > > currencies ( ex : they get $1000 from your transaction > for > > 7.65 MAD and sell it to Bank Almaghreb for 7.68) that > means > > they do not buy the devise from you the same value in > the > > market. > > > > Better you get back your check and then make the > payment > > using one of the 3 ways. > > > > Shipping Methodes ; > > Chronopost ; the worst in the world > > Fedex : excellent, they even offer discounts and they > > have options > > Parcel post : excellent, cheap but takes a while, > > guaranteed, I was told that Fedex delivers their > packages. > > DHL : excellent, I just hate the girl works there . > > EMS : Never worked with > > Airfreight ; large countities 100kg-up $520 for > 100kg. > > > > GREG"S "CAREFULLY" AREN'T SENDING MONEY TO MOROCCO > > NOWADAYS? AREN'T YOU GETTING SHIPMENTS? LET OTHERS DO > > IT AND DO NOT BE SELFISH > > > > One last thing, I don't understand how the moroccan > did not > > know about all the payments methodes since he is > selling > > meteorites, even beginners know western union. > > > > My best > > Aziz Alhyane > > > > --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Carl 's > > wrote: > > > > > From: Carl 's > > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send > > payments from Canada to Morocco? > > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 5:50 AM > > > > > > Hi Melanie, All, > > > > > > At this time I don't see myself buying stones > directly > > from > > > a Moroccan dealer but there may come a time when > I > > would be > > > tempted to. I hope the more experienced > meteorite > > buyers > > > would share knowledge on "How to," pitfalls to > avoid > > and any > > > advice other than, "carefully." > > > > > > Mel, I'm a bit confused by your post. You said > you > > sent a > > > check but it sounded like you didn't figure in > the > > shipping > > > costs? Also because you sent a check, the seller > > doesn't > > > accept PayPal or an International money order? > How > > does one > > > then pay for stones in Morocco? > > > > > > Carl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Carefully!" > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > Hi list, > > > > > > > > Please help - I mailed a payment to a > Moroccan > > dealer > > > for a lot of > > > > chondrites via a paper check, he got it > today, > > but he > > > told me that the banks > > > > over there don't recognize it even though it > is > > > completely valid. I can't > > > > afford the shipping costs through FedEx for > the > > lot I > > > want - which will be > > > > over $200 CND... so what other less > expensive > > options > > > do you suggest? > > > > > > > > Thank you in advance > > > > > > > > ----------- > > > > Melanie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM > protection. > > > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > > > ______________________________________________ > > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > > > > > > From gmhupe at htn.net Wed Nov 11 22:45:39 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:45:39 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco? References: <978412.75240.qm@web45402.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D3ECF66D0AB483FAD6F832705EC5D48@Gregor> Aziz, I have helped many Moroccans in the most unbelievable and fair way imaginable over the last 10 years!! Isn't it amazing that I have a Moroccan stone trader competing against me here? I am honored! Aziz, did I out bid you on yet another stone, is that why you appear pissed?! I have some advice for you, Aziz... Work harder on your own business and forget about me, you will do much better!! Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault ----- Original Message ----- From: "Abdelaziz Alhyane" To: ; "Greg Hupe" Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco? > Hi Greg Hupe, > Do you do the right things when you buy from moroccans ? > Thanks God, I have no problem and I treat my customers right. > Aziz Alhyane > > --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Greg Hupe wrote: > >> From: Greg Hupe >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada >> toMorocco? >> To: "Abdelaziz Alhyane" , >> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 7:08 PM >> My friend, Aziz (Alhyane), >> >> Yes, I do know what I mean, I know what YOU mean and I know >> what ALL >> Moroccans mean. When asked my opinion, ALL will know what I >> mean! >> >> My last reply to you [Moroccans] is this: >> "Treat your customers right, and you will not have >> problems!!" >> "Treat the meteorites right; as in, accuracy of type, TKW, >> self-pairings >> (fraud), etc., and you will not have problems!!!"... >> >> Aziz, I am much too busy to pussy-foot around with you. Get >> it right, or >> keep on going! >> >> Best regards, >> Greg >> >> ==================== >> Greg Hupe >> The Hupe Collection >> NaturesVault (eBay) >> gmhupe at htn.net >> www.LunarRock.com >> IMCA 3163 >> ==================== >> Click here for my current eBay auctions: >> http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Abdelaziz Alhyane" >> To: ; >> "Greg Hupe" >> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:55 PM >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments >> from Canada >> toMorocco? >> >> >> Hi Greg, >> You know what YOU mean, >> >> list members, >> Go shop anywhere, Morocco is one of the best shops to buy >> meteorites from, >> if you find cool meteorites from a Moroccan you don't know, >> just ask in the >> list and you get all infos for your decision. >> All the types of meteorites available from Morocco at great >> prices, don't >> miss the opportunity. >> >> My best >> Aziz >> >> --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Greg Hupe >> wrote: >> >> > From: Greg Hupe >> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send >> payments from Canada >> > toMorocco? >> > To: "Abdelaziz Alhyane" , >> >> > meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 6:41 PM >> > Hello Aziz Alhyane, >> > you wrote, "GREG"S "CAREFULLY" AREN'T SENDING MONEY >> TO >> > MOROCCO NOWADAYS? AREN'T YOU GETTING SHIPMENTS? LET >> > OTHERS DO IT AND DO NOT BE SELFISH" >> > >> > I am not sure what you mean exactly, but my advice to >> ALL >> > is to be CAREFUL when sending ANY payments to >> Moroccans. Did >> > I strike a nerve, Aziz Alhyane?! You also mention that >> you, >> > "...hate the girl works there [DHL]." I think she, and >> the >> > others who work there to be quite friendly and have >> been >> > extremely helpful to me in person or over the phone >> over the >> > many years [I continue to work there]. >> > >> > Any further comments you have, Mr. Alhyane? Do not go >> > fishing for replies, I will let you know how I feel! >> > >> > Best regards, >> > Greg >> > >> > ==================== >> > Greg Hupe >> > The Hupe Collection >> > NaturesVault (eBay) >> > gmhupe at htn.net >> > www.LunarRock.com >> > IMCA 3163 >> > ==================== >> > Click here for my current eBay auctions: >> > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Abdelaziz >> Alhyane" >> > >> > To: ; >> > "Carl 's" >> > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:22 PM >> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send >> payments >> > from Canada toMorocco? >> > >> > >> > Dear List members, >> > In Morocco, here is no Paypal as it is not allowed to >> get >> > the currency out of country, we can buy online or send >> money >> > out of country, but if you have a company and want to >> import >> > something, you need to provide papers and if you have >> a son >> > studying in canada, USA or europe, you have a limite >> to send >> > him monthly, about $500-$600. >> > We have 3 payment methodes : >> > Western Union ; the most expensive, >> > >> > MoneyGram : cheap way, available in Post offices in >> US, >> > Canada and UK. >> > >> > Bank Transfer : is the best even it takes 3-7 days, >> the >> > bank take from the money their commission and when >> changing >> > currencies ( ex : they get $1000 from your transaction >> for >> > 7.65 MAD and sell it to Bank Almaghreb for 7.68) that >> means >> > they do not buy the devise from you the same value in >> the >> > market. >> > >> > Better you get back your check and then make the >> payment >> > using one of the 3 ways. >> > >> > Shipping Methodes ; >> > Chronopost ; the worst in the world >> > Fedex : excellent, they even offer discounts and they >> > have options >> > Parcel post : excellent, cheap but takes a while, >> > guaranteed, I was told that Fedex delivers their >> packages. >> > DHL : excellent, I just hate the girl works there . >> > EMS : Never worked with >> > Airfreight ; large countities 100kg-up $520 for >> 100kg. >> > >> > GREG"S "CAREFULLY" AREN'T SENDING MONEY TO MOROCCO >> > NOWADAYS? AREN'T YOU GETTING SHIPMENTS? LET OTHERS DO >> > IT AND DO NOT BE SELFISH >> > >> > One last thing, I don't understand how the moroccan >> did not >> > know about all the payments methodes since he is >> selling >> > meteorites, even beginners know western union. >> > >> > My best >> > Aziz Alhyane >> > >> > --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Carl 's >> > wrote: >> > >> > > From: Carl 's >> > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send >> > payments from Canada to Morocco? >> > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > > Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 5:50 AM >> > > >> > > Hi Melanie, All, >> > > >> > > At this time I don't see myself buying stones >> directly >> > from >> > > a Moroccan dealer but there may come a time when >> I >> > would be >> > > tempted to. I hope the more experienced >> meteorite >> > buyers >> > > would share knowledge on "How to," pitfalls to >> avoid >> > and any >> > > advice other than, "carefully." >> > > >> > > Mel, I'm a bit confused by your post. You said >> you >> > sent a >> > > check but it sounded like you didn't figure in >> the >> > shipping >> > > costs? Also because you sent a check, the seller >> > doesn't >> > > accept PayPal or an International money order? >> How >> > does one >> > > then pay for stones in Morocco? >> > > >> > > Carl >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > "Carefully!" >> > > > >> > > > Best regards, >> > > > Greg >> > > > >> > > >> > > > Hi list, >> > > > >> > > > Please help - I mailed a payment to a >> Moroccan >> > dealer >> > > for a lot of >> > > > chondrites via a paper check, he got it >> today, >> > but he >> > > told me that the banks >> > > > over there don't recognize it even though it >> is >> > > completely valid. I can't >> > > > afford the shipping costs through FedEx for >> the >> > lot I >> > > want - which will be >> > > > over $200 CND... so what other less >> expensive >> > options >> > > do you suggest? >> > > > >> > > > Thank you in advance >> > > > >> > > > ----------- >> > > > Melanie >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> _________________________________________________________________ >> > > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM >> protection. >> > > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ >> > > ______________________________________________ >> > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> > > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > ______________________________________________ >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > From marc.d.fries at jpl.nasa.gov Thu Nov 12 01:08:06 2009 From: marc.d.fries at jpl.nasa.gov (Fries, Marc D (3225)) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:08:06 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] New fall with radar signature - up for grabs! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This one appears to have produced a strewn field approximately 20-25 km in length with a very prominent smoke trail. First one there can have it! 36.7990 N ?122.8979 W And it looked like this (scroll down to ?sunset fireball?): http://www.spaceweather.com/archive.php?view=1&day=10&month=11&year=2009 This critter spent four billion years or so floating in space only to drop into the ocean within sight of land. That?s a bummer, because the radar signature is impressive. Anyone have a submarine? Or just a really long pole with a net on it? Cheers, MDF From SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com Thu Nov 12 06:30:39 2009 From: SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com (SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 06:30:39 EST Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 12, 2009 Message-ID: http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_12_2009.html From geeg48 at msn.com Thu Nov 12 12:17:22 2009 From: geeg48 at msn.com (GREG LINDH) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:17:22 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Full time meteorite people. Message-ID: To all, I've often wondered how many people are full time hunter/collectors of meteorites. In other words, how many people earn their living strictly from the hunting, collecting, trading, and selling of meteorites, and have no side jobs to supplement their meteorite income? What percentage would be a good guess? Greg Lindh From mqfowler at mac.com Thu Nov 12 13:02:22 2009 From: mqfowler at mac.com (Michael Fowler) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:02:22 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco? Message-ID: <813A209F-A6AA-4E31-88D7-792B8CC32490@mac.com> Hi Greg, I don't think there is any benefit to your holier than thou responses to Aziz. All I think he was trying to do, in his as yet imperfect English, was to chide you for your flippant answer to Melanie's question about shipments to Morocco. Don't you think you could have done better than just say "Carefully!" ?? Sincerely, Mike Fowler Chicago From gmhupe at htn.net Thu Nov 12 13:52:12 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:52:12 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Test - Delete Message-ID: <44B65710AC664E1989CFC23D606E3E69@Gregor> Testing, please delete Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault From damoclid at yahoo.com Thu Nov 12 13:58:34 2009 From: damoclid at yahoo.com (Richard Kowalski) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:58:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 12, 2009 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <154559.68127.qm@web33904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> $15 today and no samples permitted... -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA #1081 --- On Thu, 11/12/09, SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com wrote: > From: SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 12, 2009 > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 4:30 AM > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_12_2009.html > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From damoclid at yahoo.com Thu Nov 12 14:08:46 2009 From: damoclid at yahoo.com (Richard Kowalski) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:08:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] National Geographic Channel - Naked Science: Countdown to Impact Message-ID: <742621.9945.qm@web33902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello all, I posted this yesterday from my work address, but it hasn't come through yet. Apologies if it does and this posts twice. ~~~~~ I just got word from the producers that we have a date for the premier of the program, "Naked Science: Countdown to Impact" The hour long program about the discovery of 2008 TC3, the prediction of it's impact in northern Sudan and the subsequent recovery of it's meteorite fragments will first air on Thursday, December 3rd at 8pm EST on the National Geographic Channel. http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/naked-science/4652/Overview -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA #1081 From kowalski at lpl.arizona.edu Wed Nov 11 11:41:21 2009 From: kowalski at lpl.arizona.edu (Richard Kowalski) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:41:21 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] National Geographic Channel - Naked Science: Countdown to Impact Message-ID: <4AFAE931.3090607@lpl.arizona.edu> Hello all, I just got word from the producers that we have a date for the premier of the program, Naked Science: Countdown to Impact The hour long program about the discovery of 2008 TC3, the prediction of it's impact in northern Sudan and the subsequent recovery of it's meteorite fragments will first air on Thursday, December 3rd at 8pm EST on the National Geographic Channel. http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/naked-science/4652/Overview -- Richard Kowalski Catalina Sky Survey Lunar and Planetary Laboratory University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 From gmhupe at htn.net Thu Nov 12 14:38:15 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:38:15 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] National Geographic Channel - Naked Science:Countdown to Impact References: <4AFAE931.3090607@lpl.arizona.edu> Message-ID: <73D07CE3AA1C480C9798B4FE466138FF@Gregor> Hi Richard, A huge, "Congratulations" to you for initially discovering 2008 TC3!! It is truly an amazing story of asteroid discovery, followed by recovered meteorites from when the asteroid fell to earth. Another "Congratulations" goes to all who helped track it through earth's atmosphere and then into the Sudanese desert where the meteorites were recovered. Great job all!! Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Kowalski" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 11:41 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] National Geographic Channel - Naked Science:Countdown to Impact > Hello all, > > I just got word from the producers that we have a date for the premier of > the program, > Naked Science: Countdown to Impact > > The hour long program about the discovery of 2008 TC3, the prediction of > it's impact in northern Sudan and the subsequent recovery of it's > meteorite fragments will first air on Thursday, December 3rd at 8pm EST on > the National Geographic Channel. > > > http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/naked-science/4652/Overview > > > -- > Richard Kowalski > Catalina Sky Survey > Lunar and Planetary Laboratory > University of Arizona > Tucson, AZ 85721 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Thu Nov 12 14:59:31 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:59:31 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] YD impact - doing as best they can Message-ID: <20091112145932.KLZZJ.936878.imail@eastrmwml43> In response to " Newly Published Junk Science on Younger Dryas Impact" at: http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2009-November/058066.html E.P. Grondine stated: "All I can do is re-iterate that there is no reason for several of the peoples to have made up stories of this impact, other than that it did occur. So I have a very pro-impact bias, which you can dismiss as nonsense based on fairly tales if you like.? First a problem is that Native American oral history is not a straight forward historical account as you insist that it is. It also includes tribal religious beliefs and moral instruction. As a result, history has been interpreted to support religion. Also, it contains symbolism, which cannot be separate from historical observations. Thus, it is a mistake to insist that Native American tradition be interpreted literally just like Young Earth creationists insists the Bible be interpreted literally. You are making materialistic interpretations of literature that hopefully mixed together with significant amounts of religious revelation, symbolism, and teaching. Finally, the Native American oral history lacks any precise and reliable chronology. Even though oral history make mentions of an event, it is impossible for you or anyone else to argue that an event described in oral history is contemporaneous a hypothesize Younger Dryas event. The events that you talk may have happened hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands years before the were first recorded in written form. There is a lack of any means of securely dating events described in oral history even if their reality and character is correctly interpreted by you. If civilization was to crumble in the near future and either the ?Stars Fell on Alabama? lyrics were to survive, in oral tradition, this cataclysm, I can vision future archaeologists and anthropologists arguing over whether this song is evidence of the event that caused the fall of our civilization or an earlier cataclysm at the end of the Pleistocene. If this song was only preserved in oral history, there would be no way of determining when the event recorded in this song occurred. Grondine further wrote: ?Except for the sudden drop in population evidenced by the ending of quarry usage." This interpretation, as a number of interpretations is hotly disputed and remains unsettled at this time. ?While Firestone is a nuclear physicist with little geological training, in point of fact the layer with the markers is thin - there was not much material deposited by this impact, unlike Chicxulub and Shiva. So unless Ivester was very careful in his sampling, he could have missed it.? You are completely confused here. Dr. Firestone?s comments concerned only optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) dating) done by Ivester. The dismissive remarks by Dr. Firestone had nothing to with impact ejecta or indicators of any type. Your comments about Ivester missing a thin impact layer are totally beside the point and irreverent to the discussion. ... irreverent Vogon Poetry about NASA omitted... Grodine continued: ?Also, it is entirely possible that neutron production in impact threw off Ivester's OSL dates. (Odessa again.)? If you take the time to read what is published about OSL dating, you will find that what you propose above scientifically bankrupt nonsense. This is just a lame ad hoc hypothesis to arbitrarily dismiss some unpleasant facts. Grodine continued: ?As far as one point of impact goes, I can agree with you about not being in the Lakes. Why? The Five Nations would not have survived and left us their account of it. I still favor the Kiscoty, Alberta structure. Perhaps there are other similar structures evidencing impacts in ice sheets elsewhere, but then NASA is spending $0 looking for them.? Do you mean ?Kitscoty?, not ?Kiscoty?? The 2009 SEIS impact crater database does not list any such reported impact structure. ...more Vogon Poetry about NASA and Morrison omitted... Finally, Grodine stated: ?Dr. Firestone must be getting closer to nailing this one down, or he would not upset you so.? Given that Firestone has only managed with his latest article to the get the attention of a single rather unimportant, insignificant person, me, who only has a M.S. in Geology and the other 99.999 percent could care less about what he wrote in it, it appears that Dr. Firestone nailed only his thumb and nothing else according to the above logic. In sharp contrast, the papers written by Dr. Kennett and others have gotten the attention of major researchers and generated additional research, and publication. Best Regards, Paul H. From newsletter at ausgangspunkt-erde.de Thu Nov 12 15:04:51 2009 From: newsletter at ausgangspunkt-erde.de (Ausgangspunkt Erde) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:04:51 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Full time meteorite people. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Greg and all. I locate the fall area. And I find meteorites. That's my job. I have researched in this year four meteorite falls here in Europe and at two falls I was successful. More information here: www.erfm.eu Best wishes from Germany Thomas Grau European Research Center for Fireballs and Meteorites ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von GREG LINDH Gesendet: Donnerstag, 12. November 2009 18:17 An: meteorite-list Betreff: [meteorite-list] Full time meteorite people. To all, I've often wondered how many people are full time hunter/collectors of meteorites. In other words, how many people earn their living strictly from the hunting, collecting, trading, and selling of meteorites, and have no side jobs to supplement their meteorite income? What percentage would be a good guess? Greg Lindh ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From aidmohamed at rocketmail.com Thu Nov 12 15:59:28 2009 From: aidmohamed at rocketmail.com (Aid Mohamed) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:59:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco? Message-ID: <575356.16212.qm@web111215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hello List; I? just want to know what is the aim of Greg in that? all the time when something is happen to Maroccan dealers, he's intervention is usually negative, as a Moroccan dealer I hate this manner, Plesae don't generalize! if anyone had a problem with someone, please try to solve it friendly....etc its my point of view, list:what do you think about it? best regards Aid --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Michael Fowler wrote: From: Michael Fowler Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco? To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Cc: "Michael Fowler" Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 6:02 PM Hi Greg, I don't think there is any benefit to your holier than thou responses to Aziz. All I think he was trying to do, in his as yet imperfect English, was to chide you for your flippant answer to Melanie's question about shipments to Morocco. Don't you think you could have done better than just say "Carefully!"? ?? Sincerely, Mike Fowler Chicago ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From aidmohamed at rocketmail.com Thu Nov 12 15:59:28 2009 From: aidmohamed at rocketmail.com (Aid Mohamed) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:59:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco? Message-ID: <575356.16212.qm@web111215.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hello List; I? just want to know what is the aim of Greg in that? all the time when something is happen to Maroccan dealers, he's intervention is usually negative, as a Moroccan dealer I hate this manner, Plesae don't generalize! if anyone had a problem with someone, please try to solve it friendly....etc its my point of view, list:what do you think about it? best regards Aid --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Michael Fowler wrote: From: Michael Fowler Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco? To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Cc: "Michael Fowler" Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 6:02 PM Hi Greg, I don't think there is any benefit to your holier than thou responses to Aziz. All I think he was trying to do, in his as yet imperfect English, was to chide you for your flippant answer to Melanie's question about shipments to Morocco. Don't you think you could have done better than just say "Carefully!"? ?? Sincerely, Mike Fowler Chicago ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 12 15:56:13 2009 From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net (Brian Cox) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:56:13 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco Message-ID: Hello Melanie and list, In regards to your question of sending payments to Morocco, I have to ask a couple of questions and others also mentioned they weren't clear on your question since you didn't seem to be including shipping costs. I'd like to help you out and I mean this in the most thoughtful and kindest way possible, so please don't take it negatively or have any anger towards me. Make sure you include shipping costs when you were determining the total amount of the payment you need to send to the seller and then send a check and then say you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping costs if that is what you agreed to buy from the seller? You have said this in the past about not having money to pay for something or to pay for the shipping costs. It's good to ask for help if you are not experienced in sending payments outside of Canada beyond Paypal. This sounds like you decided to send a check for the meteorites and then were going to decide about a payment for the "shipping" as a separate payment or to pay for shipping later on. Is this why you stated you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping costs after you had sent your personal Canadian paper check? This doesn't sound right why you wouldn't determine the full amount due to the seller for the items with shipping and or insurance and then send one payment and later decide you couldn't afford the shipping costs they gave you. Also, you stated you sent a "Paper Check" which, as I am thinking is a "personal check" from your personal Canadian bank account by what you wrote. I'm confused to why would you think that a personal check from your Canadian bank account would be "valid" as you say, to a dealer in Morocco, which I am sure it is valid in Canada and you have money in your account, but most likely would not be accepted in Morocco or any other country? You don't often hear of dealers in Asia, Africa, Europe or for the most part any dealers in the U.S. or anywhere in North or South America or Australia that would accept a personal Paper check from a bank in a different country, although it may happen. A check from a Canadian bank account or from a U.S. bank account or any personal paper check from any other country most likely won't be accepted unless they verified with their bank first that they could accept that check. An example would be if there was Citibank in Canada and then Citibank in the U.S. would accept that check or Citibank in England, etc. .I'm sure if the check was from a bank that had a branch in that country that it would be accepted, but it usually creates a hassle and is time consuming to stand in line or through an ATM. As several members mentioned bank wire is the safest and then probably FedEx payment, but sending a paper check or money order isn't a good idea as Gary mentioned. I would like to offer a friendly suggestion to help you out. Please make sure you discuss all the facts and figures with any dealer/collector anywhere in the world before closing a deal. Remember you are entering a contract with this dealer, whether it is on ebay or through their website or through correspondence with the dealer. On ebay this is stated as you are entering a contract so be mindful of this. You need to finalize all costs. You need to get the full amount that you owe in writing, email, etc. for the meteorites and any insurance and shipping and then you need to first discuss the method of payment to that dealer before you send any payment. I think your first mistake here was that it sounds as if you didn't determine the full costs of the meteorites with shipping, then you didn't ask the seller if he or she would accept a "Personal Paper Check from another country. I think you will have much better luck and increase good relations with dealers through online sales, ebay and through the different meteorite lists you if you slow down and get the facts before making purchases and payments. As you have written on your posts the equivalent of The Tom Hanks character from the Forest Gump movie, "Life is like a box of chocolates." You need to stop and think that your eyes are bigger than your stomach and stop and think of what you are wanting to bid on or buy first and how to pay for it. There is an old saying in America that you may or may not know in Canada. "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach" which roughly means you saw the food on the menu and you ordered all that looked good to eat, but your stomach wasn't big enough to eat it all and you became very full before you could finish the meal. This is the same as the child that fills their plate up and can't eat it all at home. This also goes along with shopping at the store when you are hungry and buying too much, as in buying more goodies than you needed. In this case looking at meteorites you want to buy and then not carefully researching making a payment and then feeling full of frustration and aggravation at how to make the payment or what road to go down. I truly hope this helps in the future. Have a great day! Brian --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco Hi list, Please help - I mailed a payment to a Moroccan dealer for a lot of chondrites via a paper check, he got it today, but he told me that the banks over there don't recognize it even though it is completely valid. I can't afford the shipping costs through FedEx for the lot I want - which will be over $200 CND... so what other less expensive options do you suggest? Thank you in advance ----------- Melanie IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 From bencubbin at hotmail.com Thu Nov 12 16:03:53 2009 From: bencubbin at hotmail.com (Howard Steffic) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:03:53 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] freebies and on another note In-Reply-To: <237682.12819.qm@web57808.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <237682.12819.qm@web57808.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Steve. I hate to be rude but do you make a career out of being clueless? Non-paypal members are free to just use their credit cards to make payments. So what is the incentive to take credit card payments directly, The service charge is basically the same. Howard Steffic ---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:55:30 -0800 > From: stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] freebies and on another note > > Hi again list.All 20 freebies are gone.Will go out this weekend.When they go I will send each one of you an email.Also do alot of dealers or collecters take credit cards? What I mean is,if I want to buy something and I give you my number,will it be taken for payment.No paypal.I would like to know,it will make buying a little easier. > Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 12 16:35:10 2009 From: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com (Carl 's) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:35:10 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco? Message-ID: Hi Greg, Aziz, All, I would like to thank Aziz and others on their informative input on buying meteorites from Morocco. I'm confused about this pairing of meteorites and I think Greg touched on this briefly. This has been bugging me since I started collecting. I don't want to start a flame war so please, PLEASE think twice before hitting the send key on this reply. Take for example a dealer/collector buys a 300g stone from Morocco, gets it classified and it is named NWA 9999, a very, very rare Diogenite. Later, more stones are found and it sure looks like NWA 9999. I understand the original 300g stone is NWA 9999 but the others found later should be considered paired unless it has the lab work and documents to back it up. Using this logic, all subsequent finds of Holbrook, Franconia, Gold Basin,...etc. should be considered pairings and not in fact Holbrook, Franconia, Gold Basin? Is this because these meteorites have established strewn fields, respectively, but the NWA meteorites do not? How can anyone be sure a stray meteorite has not fallen and was collected in these U.S. strewn fields without cutting it or lab work done on each? Perhaps an experienced meteorite hunter would know the difference but what of a novice like myself? Carl Greg wrote: >"...Treat the meteorites right; as in, accuracy of type, TKW, self-pairings (fraud), etc., and you will not have problems!!!"... _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Thu Nov 12 16:55:06 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:55:06 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All: It is my understanding that a true "paired" stone would need to be lab tested to match the first find (NWA 9999) or it would have to physically "fit' to the first stone (NWA 9999).? Perhaps this is not correct.? I collect a lot on dry lakes and in that environment you can have many different stones from different falls - as these lakes are collection areas.? Now perhaps strewn fields like Gold Basin, Franconia and Holbrook have had enough stones tested that they are called paired stones, but again you can have multiple strewn fields (ie Franconia). I'm not familar with NWA's and how strewn field are defined there, I would think it should be the same as I mentioned above.? A true paired stone would need to be tested. Just my few grams worth, Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > From: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:35:10 -0800 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco? > > > Hi Greg, Aziz, All, > > > I would like to thank Aziz and others on their informative input on buying meteorites from Morocco. > > I'm confused about this pairing of meteorites and I think Greg touched on this briefly. This has been bugging me since I started collecting. I don't want to start a flame war so please, PLEASE think twice before hitting the send key on this reply. > > Take for example a dealer/collector buys a 300g stone from Morocco, gets it classified and it is named NWA 9999, a very, very rare Diogenite. Later, more stones are found and it sure looks like NWA 9999. I understand the original 300g stone is NWA 9999 but the others found later should be considered paired unless it has the lab work and documents to back it up. > > Using this logic, all subsequent finds of Holbrook, Franconia, Gold Basin,...etc. should be considered pairings and not in fact Holbrook, Franconia, Gold Basin? Is this because these meteorites have established strewn fields, respectively, but the NWA meteorites do not? How can anyone be sure a stray meteorite has not fallen and was collected in these U.S. strewn fields without cutting it or lab work done on each? Perhaps an experienced meteorite hunter would know the difference but what of a novice like myself? > > > Carl > > > Greg wrote: >>"...Treat the meteorites right; as in, accuracy of type, TKW, self-pairings > (fraud), etc., and you will not have problems!!!"... > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ From erikfwebb at msn.com Thu Nov 12 17:04:24 2009 From: erikfwebb at msn.com (Erik Fisler) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:04:24 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Full time meteorite people. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John Wolfe hunts for meteorites so he can sell them for pennies on the dollar at quartzite or dirt cheap to fellow list members so that he can have enough pocket change to put gas in his truck and get a few cans of beans. It's hard not to have a constant stream of income. [Erik] > From: geeg48 at msn.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:17:22 -0700 > Subject: [meteorite-list] Full time meteorite people. > > > > To all, > > I've often wondered how many people are full time hunter/collectors of meteorites. In other words, how many people earn their living strictly from the hunting, collecting, trading, and selling of meteorites, and have no side jobs to supplement their meteorite income? What percentage would be a good guess? > > Greg Lindh > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From gmhupe at htn.net Thu Nov 12 17:33:34 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:33:34 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Self-Pairing = No-No! References: Message-ID: Hello Carl and List, Carl brought up some excellent questions. To answer as briefly as possible, but without a single word reply, I will try to explain a little bit of my dislikes with self pairing to Classified material. I have had many different meteorites classified over the years. I typically wait quite a bit of time to pass before I offer these publicly, two years in the case of my new Lunar, NWA 4932, which I just announced this week. I wait for a couple reasons: 1) To let the different investigating scientists glean as much possible information about the meteorite in order to offer an accurately classified meteorite. 2) Wait and see if any more material surfaces to try and get an accurate Total Known Weight (TKW). It seems once I do announce a new meteorite, "guaranteed pairings" start to be offered by different Moroccan stone traders. On occasion this may be accurate, but MOST of the time it is not the case! You can not say just from photos if something is "paired". A recent example is when I announced a new diogenite, my Moroccan partner later sent me "guaranteed pairings" to this. After receiving four stones, it was clear that three of the four were NOT paired, and were something else. To make sure of this, I cut all four stones and then sent them to the lab to be examined, at MY cost! One turned out to be paired, the other three were not, they were; one terrestrial rock and the other two were rotten chondrites. This just goes to show that visual pairings are to be avoided. It is becoming more of a problem at the different Shows. Examples are: 1) NWA 2995, a classified lunar. Many "self pairings" hit the scene, some were actually paired after scientific examination, but even more were not lunar! In fact, I purchased one of these that "Looked" like 2995. After cutting it and sending the type sample in for classification to get my own NWA number as a pairing to 2995, I was informed that it was NOT a lunar, but a Maskelynite-rich Eucrite, cool in itself, but NOT lunar. More of these stones became available by the Moroccans and "Guaranteed" as Lunar of 2995. I was sent samples of several of these that turned out NOT to be lunar and I then informed these different Moroccans. I learned later that they sold these as TRUE LUNAR stones and sadly I found out that several friends got screwed by these Moroccans who were informed that those particular stones were NOT lunar. They simply did not care and went to an unsuspecting victim. This is one of the things that upsets me the most. 2) The Moroccans who offer classified material at the shows, stating, "These stones are paired to NWAxxxx". I have heard of many examples of this practice, and in many cases collectors are holding unclassified material which may, or may not even be meteorites! 3) Even if material offered is indeed the same as what they claim, the material still needs to be verified and the weight entered to keep the Official Total Known Weight (TKW) accurate. This is another pet peeve of mine. I often wonder why I should give up "another" 20 grams (or 20%) of a planetary meteorite when the original type sample should be plenty. Oh yah, I like to make sure what I offer is AUTHENTIC and to keep the TKW accurate as possible! These are a few of the issues that set me off. I am very passionate about what I do and try to keep it as accurate as possible. When games and fraud is perpetrated by those who do not care about the science or collectors, I get upset and tend to be vocal. If I seem too quick to reply, or type a single word in haste or anger, I apologize to all who are offended by my posts. I think it is important to keep it real, and really keep it honest and accurate! I believe it is part of my responsibility to keep it real and to give notice to those who do not! Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl 's" To: Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco? > > Hi Greg, Aziz, All, > > > I would like to thank Aziz and others on their informative input on buying > meteorites from Morocco. > > I'm confused about this pairing of meteorites and I think Greg touched on > this briefly. This has been bugging me since I started collecting. I don't > want to start a flame war so please, PLEASE think twice before hitting the > send key on this reply. > > Take for example a dealer/collector buys a 300g stone from Morocco, gets > it classified and it is named NWA 9999, a very, very rare Diogenite. > Later, more stones are found and it sure looks like NWA 9999. I understand > the original 300g stone is NWA 9999 but the others found later should be > considered paired unless it has the lab work and documents to back it up. > > Using this logic, all subsequent finds of Holbrook, Franconia, Gold > Basin,...etc. should be considered pairings and not in fact Holbrook, > Franconia, Gold Basin? Is this because these meteorites have established > strewn fields, respectively, but the NWA meteorites do not? How can anyone > be sure a stray meteorite has not fallen and was collected in these U.S. > strewn fields without cutting it or lab work done on each? Perhaps an > experienced meteorite hunter would know the difference but what of a > novice like myself? > > > Carl > > > Greg wrote: >>"...Treat the meteorites right; as in, accuracy of type, TKW, >>self-pairings > (fraud), etc., and you will not have problems!!!"... > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From gmhupe at htn.net Thu Nov 12 18:03:39 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:03:39 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] [Clarify] Meteorite Self-Pairing = No-No! References: Message-ID: Dear List Members, To clarify and/or add to my previous post "Self-Pairing = No-No!": Where I wrote, "It seems once I do announce a new meteorite, "guaranteed pairings" start to be offered by different Moroccan stone traders." I am NOT referring to my new lunar, NWA 4932 which I just announced this week. Nobody has self-paired to that one [yet]. If there were any more of it, suspect stones would have surfaced before now. This actually brings up another example, when NWA 482 first came out, it seemed that ALL of the Moroccans had more of 482, all were proved wrong and was just wishful thinking on the part of get-rich quick stone traders. There are NO pairings to NWA 482! This was also the case when NWA 5000 was announced a couple years ago. It again seemed that all of the Moroccan stone traders had MORE of it. In fact, at the Tucson Show a couple years ago, certain disruptive stone traders claimed to have a 17-kilo pairing to it. They knew that that 17-kilo stone was a EUCRITE because months before I paid to have a sample analyzed from that stone! Again, they did not care and wanted to sucker an unsuspecting victim in. I can say that the 17-kilo eucrite now resides in a prominent public collection because of the efforts of an honest and generous Canadian collector! Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Hupe" To: "Carl 's" ; Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 5:33 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Self-Pairing = No-No! > Hello Carl and List, > > Carl brought up some excellent questions. To answer as briefly as > possible, but without a single word reply, I will try to explain a little > bit of my dislikes with self pairing to Classified material. > > I have had many different meteorites classified over the years. I > typically wait quite a bit of time to pass before I offer these publicly, > two years in the case of my new Lunar, NWA 4932, which I just announced > this week. I wait for a couple reasons: > 1) To let the different investigating scientists glean as much possible > information about the meteorite in order to offer an accurately classified > meteorite. > 2) Wait and see if any more material surfaces to try and get an accurate > Total Known Weight (TKW). > > It seems once I do announce a new meteorite, "guaranteed pairings" start > to be offered by different Moroccan stone traders. On occasion this may be > accurate, but MOST of the time it is not the case! You can not say just > from photos if something is "paired". A recent example is when I announced > a new diogenite, my Moroccan partner later sent me "guaranteed pairings" > to this. After receiving four stones, it was clear that three of the four > were NOT paired, and were something else. To make sure of this, I cut all > four stones and then sent them to the lab to be examined, at MY cost! One > turned out to be paired, the other three were not, they were; one > terrestrial rock and the other two were rotten chondrites. This just goes > to show that visual pairings are to be avoided. > > It is becoming more of a problem at the different Shows. Examples are: > 1) NWA 2995, a classified lunar. Many "self pairings" hit the scene, some > were actually paired after scientific examination, but even more were not > lunar! In fact, I purchased one of these that "Looked" like 2995. After > cutting it and sending the type sample in for classification to get my own > NWA number as a pairing to 2995, I was informed that it was NOT a lunar, > but a Maskelynite-rich Eucrite, cool in itself, but NOT lunar. More of > these stones became available by the Moroccans and "Guaranteed" as Lunar > of 2995. I was sent samples of several of these that turned out NOT to be > lunar and I then informed these different Moroccans. I learned later that > they sold these as TRUE LUNAR stones and sadly I found out that several > friends got screwed by these Moroccans who were informed that those > particular stones were NOT lunar. They simply did not care and went to an > unsuspecting victim. This is one of the things that upsets me the most. > 2) The Moroccans who offer classified material at the shows, stating, > "These stones are paired to NWAxxxx". I have heard of many examples of > this practice, and in many cases collectors are holding unclassified > material which may, or may not even be meteorites! > 3) Even if material offered is indeed the same as what they claim, the > material still needs to be verified and the weight entered to keep the > Official Total Known Weight (TKW) accurate. This is another pet peeve of > mine. I often wonder why I should give up "another" 20 grams (or 20%) of a > planetary meteorite when the original type sample should be plenty. Oh > yah, I like to make sure what I offer is AUTHENTIC and to keep the TKW > accurate as possible! > > These are a few of the issues that set me off. I am very passionate about > what I do and try to keep it as accurate as possible. When games and fraud > is perpetrated by those who do not care about the science or collectors, I > get upset and tend to be vocal. > > If I seem too quick to reply, or type a single word in haste or anger, I > apologize to all who are offended by my posts. I think it is important to > keep it real, and really keep it honest and accurate! > > I believe it is part of my responsibility to keep it real and to give > notice to those who do not! > > Best regards, > Greg > > ==================== > Greg Hupe > The Hupe Collection > NaturesVault (eBay) > gmhupe at htn.net > www.LunarRock.com > IMCA 3163 > ==================== > Click here for my current eBay auctions: > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carl 's" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 4:35 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada > toMorocco? > > >> >> Hi Greg, Aziz, All, >> >> >> I would like to thank Aziz and others on their informative input on >> buying meteorites from Morocco. >> >> I'm confused about this pairing of meteorites and I think Greg touched on >> this briefly. This has been bugging me since I started collecting. I >> don't want to start a flame war so please, PLEASE think twice before >> hitting the send key on this reply. >> >> Take for example a dealer/collector buys a 300g stone from Morocco, gets >> it classified and it is named NWA 9999, a very, very rare Diogenite. >> Later, more stones are found and it sure looks like NWA 9999. I >> understand the original 300g stone is NWA 9999 but the others found later >> should be considered paired unless it has the lab work and documents to >> back it up. >> >> Using this logic, all subsequent finds of Holbrook, Franconia, Gold >> Basin,...etc. should be considered pairings and not in fact Holbrook, >> Franconia, Gold Basin? Is this because these meteorites have established >> strewn fields, respectively, but the NWA meteorites do not? How can >> anyone be sure a stray meteorite has not fallen and was collected in >> these U.S. strewn fields without cutting it or lab work done on each? >> Perhaps an experienced meteorite hunter would know the difference but >> what of a novice like myself? >> >> >> Carl >> >> >> Greg wrote: >>>"...Treat the meteorites right; as in, accuracy of type, TKW, >>>self-pairings >> (fraud), etc., and you will not have problems!!!"... >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. >> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ >> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From rob_mccafferty at yahoo.com Thu Nov 12 18:16:44 2009 From: rob_mccafferty at yahoo.com (Rob McCafferty) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:16:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Self-Pairing = No-No! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <354367.21329.qm@web55205.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Greg Wrote "I am very passionate about what I do and try to keep it as accurate as possible. When games and fraud is perpetrated by those who do not care about the science or collectors, I get upset and tend to be vocal. If I seem too quick to reply, or type a single word in haste or anger, I apologize to all who are offended by my posts. I think it is important to keep it real, and really keep it honest and accurate! I believe it is part of my responsibility to keep it real and to give notice to those who do not!" ___________ Rob Says And that's why I have a great deal of respect for you and I'm pretty sure there are plenty of others who feel the same (indeed, I know this for fact) Trust is everything to collectors as we do not have access to our own testing labs and your efforts?to maintain integrity in a business where the material is so valuable benefits science and collectors alike. ? Greed is a powerful motivator.?Maybe it is this that causes some dealers to act out of haste. But then maybe it's not. I am fortunate that I do not have the wolves at my door. ***** I applaud the efforts of those who endeavour to assist science, improve the reliability of data for collectors, especially at their own cost. I find philantropy rather inspiring and the world needs more of it. And if I'm talking out of turn, I'm not sorry. Get over it. I'm standing up for a guy that I believe is doing it the right way. Rob McC ***** I try to be careful about how I word things.?Rearrange the same?collection of short?sentences?this way... "I am fortunate that I do not have the wolves at my door. Maybe it is this that causes some dealers to act out of haste. But then maybe it's not.?Greed is a powerful motivator".? An entirely different mood suggesting?"all people are fundamentally bad". I prefer my rather naive sounding original. From carothersdl at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 19:11:31 2009 From: carothersdl at gmail.com (dave carothers) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:11:31 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Self-Pairing = No-No! References: <354367.21329.qm@web55205.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <658AD43E31CF4AD38366A76FC5769579@your291etg47cr> Rob, Well said. We can't thank Greg, Adam, Mark, Svend, Mike, Martin and all the other reputable dealers enough for maintaing a high level of integrity in their efforts to bring meteorites to us collectors. Regards, Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob McCafferty" To: "Greg Hupe" ; Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Self-Pairing = No-No! Greg Wrote "I am very passionate about what I do and try to keep it as accurate as possible. When games and fraud is perpetrated by those who do not care about the science or collectors, I get upset and tend to be vocal. If I seem too quick to reply, or type a single word in haste or anger, I apologize to all who are offended by my posts. I think it is important to keep it real, and really keep it honest and accurate! I believe it is part of my responsibility to keep it real and to give notice to those who do not!" ___________ Rob Says And that's why I have a great deal of respect for you and I'm pretty sure there are plenty of others who feel the same (indeed, I know this for fact) Trust is everything to collectors as we do not have access to our own testing labs and your efforts to maintain integrity in a business where the material is so valuable benefits science and collectors alike. Greed is a powerful motivator. Maybe it is this that causes some dealers to act out of haste. But then maybe it's not. I am fortunate that I do not have the wolves at my door. ***** I applaud the efforts of those who endeavour to assist science, improve the reliability of data for collectors, especially at their own cost. I find philantropy rather inspiring and the world needs more of it. And if I'm talking out of turn, I'm not sorry. Get over it. I'm standing up for a guy that I believe is doing it the right way. Rob McC ***** I try to be careful about how I word things. Rearrange the same collection of short sentences this way... "I am fortunate that I do not have the wolves at my door. Maybe it is this that causes some dealers to act out of haste. But then maybe it's not. Greed is a powerful motivator". An entirely different mood suggesting "all people are fundamentally bad". I prefer my rather naive sounding original. ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Thu Nov 12 19:02:49 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:02:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] NASA to Begin Attempts to Free Sand-Trapped Mars Rover Message-ID: <200911130002.nAD02n6U002084@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> Nov. 12, 2009 Dwayne Brown Headquarters, Washington 202-358-1726 dwayne.c.brown at nasa.gov Guy Webster Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. 818-354-6278 guy.webster at jpl.nasa.gov RELEASE: 09-263 NASA TO BEGIN ATTEMPTS TO FREE SAND-TRAPPED MARS ROVER PASADENA, Calif. -- NASA will begin transmitting commands to its Mars exploration rover Spirit on Monday as part of an escape plan to free the venerable robot from its Martian sand trap. Spirit has been lodged at a site scientists call "Troy" since April 23. Researchers expect the extraction process to be long and the outcome uncertain based on tests here on Earth this spring that simulated conditions at the Martian site. "This is going to be a lengthy process, and there's a high probability attempts to free Spirit will not be successful," said Doug McCuistion, director of the Mars Exploration Program at NASA Headquarters in Washington. "After the first few weeks of attempts, we're not likely to know whether Spirit will be able to free itself." Spirit has six wheels for roving the Red Planet. The first commands will tell the rover to rotate its five working wheels forward approximately six turns. Engineers anticipate severe wheel slippage, with barely perceptible forward progress in this initial attempt. Since 2006, Spirit's right-front wheel has been inoperable, possibly because of wear and tear on a motor as a result of the rover's longevity. Spirit will return data the next day from its first drive attempt. The results will be assessed before engineers develop and send commands for a second attempt. Using results from previous commands, engineers plan to continue escape efforts until early 2010. "Mobility on Mars is challenging, and whatever the outcome, lessons from the work to free Spirit will enhance our knowledge about how to analyze Martian terrain and drive future Mars rovers," McCuisition said. "Spirit has provided outstanding scientific discoveries and shown us astounding vistas during its long life on Mars, which is more than 22 times longer than its designed life." In the spring, Spirit was driving backward and dragging the inoperable right front wheel. While driving in April, the rover's other wheels broke through a crust on the surface that was covering a bright-toned, slippery sand underneath. After a few drive attempts to get Spirit out in the subsequent days, it began sinking deeper in the sand trap. Driving was suspended to allow time for tests and reviews of possible escape strategies. "The investigations of the rover embedding and our preparations to resume driving have been extensive and thorough," said John Callas, project manager for Spirit and Opportunity at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif. "We've used two different test rovers here on Earth in conditions designed to simulate as best as possible Spirit's predicament. However, Earth-based tests cannot exactly replicate the conditions at Troy." Data show Spirit is straddling the edge of a 26-foot-wide crater that had been filled long ago with sulfate-bearing sands produced in a hot water or steam environment. The deposits in the crater formed distinct layers with different compositions and tints, and they are capped by a crusty soil. It is that soil that Spirit's wheels broke through. The buried crater lies mainly to Spirit's left. Engineers have plotted an escape route from Troy that heads up a mild slope away from the crater. "We'll start by steering the wheels straight and driving, though we may have to steer the wheels to the right to counter any downhill slip to the left," said Ashley Stroupe, a JPL rover driver and Spirit extraction testing coordinator. "Straight-ahead driving is intended to get the rover's center of gravity past a rock that lies underneath Spirit. Gaining horizontal distance without losing too much vertical clearance will be a key to success. The right front wheel's inability to rotate greatly increases the challenge." Spirit has been examining its Martian surroundings with tools on its robotic arm and its camera mast. The rover's work at Troy has augmented earlier discoveries it made indicating ancient Mars had hot springs or steam vents, possible habitats for life. If escape attempts fail, the rover's stationary location may result in new science findings. "The soft materials churned up by Spirit's wheels have the highest sulfur content measured on Mars," said Ray Arvidson a scientist at Washington University in St. Louis and deputy principal investigator for the science payloads on Spirit and Opportunity. "We're taking advantage of its fixed location to conduct detailed measurements of these interesting materials." Spirit and its twin rover landed on Mars in January 2004. They have explored Mars for five years, far surpassing their original 90-day mission. Opportunity currently is driving toward a large crater called Endeavor. NASA's JPL manages the rovers for NASA's Science Mission Directorate in Washington. For updates about Spirit's progress, visit: http://www.nasa.gov/rovers -end- From ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Thu Nov 12 19:21:53 2009 From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com (ensoramanda at ntlworld.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 0:21:53 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] National Geographic Channel - Naked Science:Countdown to Impact In-Reply-To: <73D07CE3AA1C480C9798B4FE466138FF@Gregor> Message-ID: <20091113002153.6JWPL.629207.root@web04-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Yes....and many thanks to Siegfried Harberer for tracking some down and allowing us to be proud owners of a slice. ---- Greg Hupe wrote: > Hi Richard, > > A huge, "Congratulations" to you for initially discovering 2008 TC3!! It is > truly an amazing story of asteroid discovery, followed by recovered > meteorites from when the asteroid fell to earth. Another "Congratulations" > goes to all who helped track it through earth's atmosphere and then into the > Sudanese desert where the meteorites were recovered. Great job all!! > > Best regards, > Greg > > ==================== > Greg Hupe > The Hupe Collection > NaturesVault (eBay) > gmhupe at htn.net > www.LunarRock.com > IMCA 3163 > ==================== > Click here for my current eBay auctions: > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Kowalski" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 11:41 AM > Subject: [meteorite-list] National Geographic Channel - Naked > Science:Countdown to Impact > > > > Hello all, > > > > I just got word from the producers that we have a date for the premier of > > the program, > > Naked Science: Countdown to Impact > > > > The hour long program about the discovery of 2008 TC3, the prediction of > > it's impact in northern Sudan and the subsequent recovery of it's > > meteorite fragments will first air on Thursday, December 3rd at 8pm EST on > > the National Geographic Channel. > > > > > > http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/naked-science/4652/Overview > > > > > > -- > > Richard Kowalski > > Catalina Sky Survey > > Lunar and Planetary Laboratory > > University of Arizona > > Tucson, AZ 85721 > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From epgrondine at yahoo.com Thu Nov 12 19:37:56 2009 From: epgrondine at yahoo.com (E.P. Grondine) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:37:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] YD impact and NASA criminal negligence Message-ID: <51959.33128.qm@web36904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Paul - Just to be upfront about my bias, contempt of Congress is a serious crime, one which Michael Griffin appears to have committed in his response to the George Borwn Jr. amendment, as near as can be made out. Now moving on to the minor points: "First a problem is that Native American oral history is not a straight forward historical account as you insist that it is. It also includes tribal religious beliefs and moral instruction." Agree, but words like "a star fell on a town" are pretty unambiguous. "As a result,history has been interpreted to support religion. " As it is in European society as well. "Also, it contains symbolism, which cannot be separate from historical observations." As in European society. "Thus, it is a mistake to insist that Native American tradition be interpreted literally just like Young Earth creationists insists the Bible be interpreted literally. You are making materialistic interpretations of literature that hopefully mixed together with significant amounts of religious revelation, symbolism, and teaching." True, but some of it is unambiguous. "Finally, the Native American oral history lacks any precise and reliable chronology. Even though oral history make mentions of an event, it is impossible for you or anyone else to argue that an event described in oral history is contemporaneous a hypothesize Younger Dryas event. The events that you talk may have happened hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands years before the were first recorded in written form. There is a lack of any means of securely dating events described in oral history even if their reality and character is correctly interpreted by you." That's the power of impact events - the geological and archaeological data, along with orbital mechanics of comets, establish chronologies. "If civilization was to crumble in the near future and either the ?Stars Fell on Alabama? lyrics were to survive, in oral tradition, this cataclysm, I can vision future archaeologists and anthropologists arguing over whether this song is evidence of the event that caused the fall of our civilization or an earlier cataclysm at the end of the Pleistocene. If this song was only preserved in oral history, there would be no way of determining when the event recorded in this song occurred." Except for a destruction layer, extinctions, the impactites from blast and perhaps a large circular formation. EP:Except for the sudden drop in population evidenced by the ending of quarry usage." "This interpretation, as a number of interpretations is hotly disputed and remains unsettled at this time." Not among those who know their quarries. EP: While Firestone is a nuclear physicist with little geological training, in point of fact the layer with the markers is thin - there was not much material deposited by this impact, unlike Chicxulub and Shiva. So unless Ivester was very careful in his sampling, he could have missed it.? "You are completely confused here. Dr. Firestone?s comments concerned only optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) dating) done by Ivester. The dismissive remarks by Dr. Firestone had nothing to with impact ejecta or indicators of any type. Your comments about Ivester missing a thin impact layer are totally beside the point and irreverent to the discussion." Not really, the impact layer is thin, and isotopes may be throwing off OSL dating. "... irreverent Vogon Poetry about NASA omitted..." NASA has a new Inspector General. EP:Also, it is entirely possible that neutron production in impact threw off Ivester's OSL dates. (Odessa again.)? "If you take the time to read what is published about OSL dating, you will find that what you propose above scientifically bankrupt nonsense. This is just a lame ad hoc hypothesis to arbitrarily dismiss some unpleasant facts." What we appear to have is peculiar isotopic distributions that throw off 14C and OSL dating. Firestone thinks the neutrons come from supernova, I think that they may just be freed in massive impacts. EP: As far as one point of impact goes, I can agree with you about not being in the Lakes. Why? The Five Nations would not have survived and left us their account of it. I still favor the Kiscoty, Alberta structure. Perhaps there are other similar structures evidencing impacts in ice sheets elsewhere, but then NASA is spending $0 looking for them.? "Do you mean ?Kitscoty?, not ?Kiscoty?? The 2009 SEIS impact crater database does not list any such reported impact structure." That may be the correct spelling. My apologies, I've had a major stroke, and working with half my memory. "...more Vogon Poetry about NASA and Morrison omitted..." NASA has a new Inspector General. Though let me say something positive about Morrison and Weiler:the tens of millions of dollars wasted looking for Nemesis can at least be used to show the lunatic fringe that "Niburu" does not exist EP: Dr. Firestone must be getting closer to nailing this one down, or he would not upset you so.? Given that Firestone has only managed with his latest article to the get the attention of a single rather unimportant, insignificant person, me, who only has a M.S. in Geology and the other 99.999 percent could care less about what he wrote in it, it appears that Dr. Firestone nailed only his thumb and nothing else according to the above logic. In sharp contrast, the papers written by Dr. Kennett and others have gotten the attention of major researchers and generated additional research, and publication." Kennett and many others were put onto this by Firestone. Best Regards, Paul H. I am working at a strange computer, or I would have typed this better. Thanks for the civility, in the future I'll try to match it when working with a keyboard I can type at. Arghhh. In any case, thanks for the challenging exchange. In the future, please send money along with your questions. From majbaermann at web.de Thu Nov 12 19:32:03 2009 From: majbaermann at web.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Matthias_B=E4rmann?=) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 01:32:03 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Self-Pairing = No-No! References: <354367.21329.qm@web55205.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <658AD43E31CF4AD38366A76FC5769579@your291etg47cr> Message-ID: <1A5D18AFE0CC4ACC88252F86A2846F22@thinkcentre> Greg, just my own experience on this field as a simple private collector (of course not as far as extensive as that of you professional dealers). I've bought from several Moroccan dealers, well, not the ultra rare planetary stuff, but, for example, material of the last Maghreb falls such as Bassikounou, Chergach, Tamdakht as well as individuals of NWA 801, unclassified Pallasites, Diogenites, irons etc. All stones I got were meteorites and turned out to be exactly that as what they had been offered for. The motto simply should be: "know your dealer". So please let me raise a toast to all serious, well caring, engaged, enthusiastic and fair dealers who earn their high reputation rightly - in America, Africa, Europe, everywhere. Best regards, Matthias From abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com Thu Nov 12 20:11:36 2009 From: abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com (Abdelaziz Alhyane) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:11:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Pairings/ scaring people Message-ID: <4204.18702.qm@web45412.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear list members, The subjest was " why to scary people from buying meteorites direcly from Morocco" as I said before, if a Moroccan stole you, tell it in the list and we will help to refund you publicaly, but to tell collectors that moroccans are robbers and you keep buying from them, that is crazy. How about if I buy a 1kg lunar stone from a very poor man lives in a tent worths $100 and wear $2 for $7000 and sell it for thousands of dollars, wouldn't I feel guilty if I do not help this person atleast $10k as a bonus he worths, what about If I buy from you a lunar and tell you if turns out to be something good ( not mention LUNAR) and when it is a lunar I do not give you that bonus, what about if I got a lunar sample from you and tell you it's a eucrite and then send someone else to buy it from you for the price eucrites, how about if I buy pairings material without sending a sample for pairings and tell people to not do that? Dear collectors, is there anyone of you who has been treated by sending a lunar sample and after getting the main stone different, if so, please tell us and we can discuss and see how to help you. About the total known weight TKW, it is impossible to know the exact TKW of the NWA finds, we have not access to most strewnfields, even in our western sahara we can not move as we like because of militaries and mines areas, only Touareg have access to these dangerous places, if the nomad get me a good stone, I would spend a lot of money to reach him and ask him to go back to the place the first stone was found in, i have to give him additional money, nomads are not experts hunters, they only use their eyes and hunting takes months, i would be lucky if the other deals do not know about my stone, if they do, they would send their nomads friends to the area and this is the reason why many paired stones are shown by different dealers. when the first stone discovered, the buyer asks if this is the only stone available, I honestly say YES, but we are still hunting ( how would i know if it is the only one available or not, I think i need to ask the stone itself, how many sisters you have?!). most planetaries come from Algeria, the only strewnfield we have accecc to is sikssou, missour and anwal. if you want to have a large lunar in your collection, go ahead buy it and get it classified, if you want to cut and sell, aslo get it classified, I myself, if I have a paired lunar, I would sell it unclassified lunar with guarantee, i don't need to steale your money and I don't LOVE money, I only want what my stone worths, I'm always doing my best and some nomads and dealers caused me problems and I solve them by losing money but not a friend who trusted me and send me big cash, I am still young but learned enough to play with me. I love meteorites and like to have lot of friends and improve my knwolege, I am positive with everybody, I don't try breake Moroccans, american or europeans. This is how I see things, if I'm wrong, please let me know and thanks in advance. Have a wonderful evening Aziz From dave at fallingrocks.com Thu Nov 12 20:20:12 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:20:12 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Allende complete slice, Claxton huge slice, Bonita Springs part slice, etc. AD Message-ID: All, Harlan still can't get his Yahoo address to post, so here's his ad for the week. Some quality material here and most definitely worth a look: http://shop.ebay.com/retro_florida/m.html?trksid=p3686 If you have any questions or offers, please contact Harlan at: bigpineartifacts at yahoo.com All best, Dave Gheesling IMCA #5967 www.fallingrocks.com From geeg48 at msn.com Thu Nov 12 23:44:01 2009 From: geeg48 at msn.com (GREG LINDH) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:44:01 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Full time meteorite people. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Eric=2C =20 I'm not familiar with John Wolfe=2C and I'm not sure what the purpose of = your email is. Would you expand a little? =20 =20 Greg L. =20 =20 =20 ---------------------------------------- > From: erikfwebb at msn.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thu=2C 12 Nov 2009 15:04:24 -0700 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Full time meteorite people. > > > John Wolfe hunts for meteorites so he can sell them for pennies on the do= llar at quartzite or dirt cheap to fellow list members so that he can have = enough pocket change to put gas in his truck and get a few cans of beans. > > It's hard not to have a constant stream of income. > > [Erik] > >> From: geeg48 at msn.com >> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Date: Thu=2C 12 Nov 2009 10:17:22 -0700 >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Full time meteorite people. >> >> >> >> To all=2C >> >> I've often wondered how many people are full time hunter/collectors of m= eteorites. In other words=2C how many people earn their living strictly fro= m the hunting=2C collecting=2C trading=2C and selling of meteorites=2C and = have no side jobs to supplement their meteorite income? What percentage wou= ld be a good guess? >> >> Greg Lindh >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list = From mexicodoug at aim.com Fri Nov 13 01:47:21 2009 From: mexicodoug at aim.com (Mexicodoug) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 01:47:21 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Full time meteorite people. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC324449103C1E-7848-27DF@webmail-d089.sysops.aol.com> Dear Greg L., I would offer to speculate that the purpose of the post from Eric Webb (who I am not familiar with), is that we might be better off distinguishing between economically sustainable activities in the meteorite supply chain and those that are not. It would seem a reasonable follow up if one allows for that important economic distinction - It is unclear of what use it is to lump these two segments of meteorite "workers" together and what actually the OP had in mind. This is an international list: For example, in the fashion and textile industries, would a similar question count the alleged masses of child slave cotton laborers in Uzbekistan (the world's 2nd or 3rd largest cotton exporter) ? Granted - that example is simply for shock value and I am apolitical though sympathetic to my brothers. So, in our case, where do you draw the line in this census, the poor nomad in his tent, the gambler of personal time in the US (From China Lake to Chicago) who is just looking for something fun to do and doesn't value the finds as much as the excitement of the chase, or the webmaster / eBay cowboy right to the scientists and technicians that draw a salary or fees based on a concentration in meteoritics, curating, preparing specimens ... Back to the speculation. I think the original question was nebulous enough that Mr. Webb was a bit passionate and a bit provocative. You both got me thinking about it, anyway... 2 centavos from the +25th parallel. Kindest wishes Doug Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. - A. Einstein -----Original Message----- From: GREG LINDH To: erikfwebb at msn.com; meteorite-list Sent: Thu, Nov 12, 2009 10:44 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Full time meteorite people. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Eric=2C =20 I'm not familiar with John Wolfe=2C and I'm not sure what the purpose of = your email is. Would you expand a little? =20 =20 Greg L. =20 =20 =20 ---------------------------------------- > From: erikfwebb at msn.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thu=2C 12 Nov 2009 15:04:24 -0700 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Full time meteorite people. > > > John Wolfe hunts for meteorites so he can sell them for pennies on the do= llar at quartzite or dirt cheap to fellow list members so that he can have = enough pocket change to put gas in his truck and get a few cans of beans. > > It's hard not to have a constant stream of income. > > [Erik] > >> From: geeg48 at msn.com >> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Date: Thu=2C 12 Nov 2009 10:17:22 -0700 >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Full time meteorite people. >> >> >> >> To all=2C >> >> I've often wondered how many people are full time hunter/collectors of m= eteorites. In other words=2C how many people earn their living strictly fro= m the hunting=2C collecting=2C trading=2C and selling of meteorites=2C and = have no side jobs to supplement their meteorite income? What percentage wou= ld be a good guess? >> >> Greg Lindh >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list = ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 13 02:15:19 2009 From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com (Melanie Matthews) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 23:15:19 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Brian, listers. Actually it was a postal money order that I mailed out to him (Mr. Abdellah Afiniss), and yes it included the cost of the stones plus the shipping costs. I asked him to mail it back to me and he said he did. Once I get the slip back I'm going to get back the money I put onto it and re-send the payment to him - probably via Moneygram (which he told me he accepts). At first offered me a lot total of 8.5 kgs of chondrites (all unclassified),, knowing full well I couldn't afford all that I circled some stones in Paint.net (free image editing program similar to MSPaint) that I wanted in the photographs, emailed back to him and kindly asked him to send me images of each meteorite I picked sitting on the scale to show their weights... I then worked out the prices until I made the final decition on buying five rocks together weighing 837 grams.. As I said he has been very cooperative, and I thanks him and I thank all here on the list for their input/suggestions! ----------- Melanie IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get! ---------------------------------------- > From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:56:13 -0600 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco > > Hello Melanie and list, > > In regards to your question of sending payments to Morocco, I have to ask a > couple of questions and others also mentioned they weren't clear on your > question since you didn't seem to be including shipping costs. I'd like to > help you out and I mean this in the most thoughtful and kindest way > possible, so please don't take it negatively or have any anger towards me. > Make sure you include shipping costs when you were determining the total > amount of the payment you need to send to the seller and then send a check > and then say you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping costs if that is what > you agreed to buy from the seller? You have said this in the past about not > having money to pay for something or to pay for the shipping costs. It's > good to ask for help if you are not experienced in sending payments outside > of Canada beyond Paypal. This sounds like you decided to send a check for > the meteorites and then were going to decide about a payment for the > "shipping" as a separate payment or to pay for shipping later on. Is this > why you stated you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping costs after you had > sent your personal Canadian paper check? This doesn't sound right why you > wouldn't determine the full amount due to the seller for the items with > shipping and or insurance and then send one payment and later decide you > couldn't afford the shipping costs they gave you. > > Also, you stated you sent a "Paper Check" which, as I am thinking is a > "personal check" from your personal Canadian bank account by what you wrote. > I'm confused to why would you think that a personal check from your Canadian > bank account would be "valid" as you say, to a dealer in Morocco, which I am > sure it is valid in Canada and you have money in your account, but most > likely would not be accepted in Morocco or any other country? You don't > often hear of dealers in Asia, Africa, Europe or for the most part any > dealers in the U.S. or anywhere in North or South America or Australia that > would accept a personal Paper check from a bank in a different country, > although it may happen. A check from a Canadian bank account or from a U.S. > bank account or any personal paper check from any other country most likely > won't be accepted unless they verified with their bank first that they could > accept that check. An example would be if there was Citibank in Canada and > then Citibank in the U.S. would accept that check or Citibank in England, > etc. .I'm sure if the check was from a bank that had a branch in that > country that it would be accepted, but it usually creates a hassle and is > time consuming to stand in line or through an ATM. As several members > mentioned bank wire is the safest and then probably FedEx payment, but > sending a paper check or money order isn't a good idea as Gary mentioned. > > I would like to offer a friendly suggestion to help you out. Please make > sure you discuss all the facts and figures with any dealer/collector > anywhere in the world before closing a deal. Remember you are entering a > contract with this dealer, whether it is on ebay or through their website or > through correspondence with the dealer. On ebay this is stated as you are > entering a contract so be mindful of this. You need to finalize all costs. > You need to get the full amount that you owe in writing, email, etc. for the > meteorites and any insurance and shipping and then you need to first discuss > the method of payment to that dealer before you send any payment. I think > your first mistake here was that it sounds as if you didn't determine the > full costs of the meteorites with shipping, then you didn't ask the seller > if he or she would accept a "Personal Paper Check from another country. I > think you will have much better luck and increase good relations with > dealers through online sales, ebay and through the different meteorite lists > you if you slow down and get the facts before making purchases and payments. > > As you have written on your posts the equivalent of The Tom Hanks character > from the Forest Gump movie, "Life is like a box of chocolates." You need > to stop and think that your eyes are bigger than your stomach and stop and > think of what you are wanting to bid on or buy first and how to pay for it. > There is an old saying in America that you may or may not know in Canada. > "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach" which roughly means you saw the > food on the menu and you ordered all that looked good to eat, but your > stomach wasn't big enough to eat it all and you became very full before you > could finish the meal. This is the same as the child that fills their plate > up and can't eat it all at home. This also goes along with shopping at the > store when you are hungry and buying too much, as in buying more goodies > than you needed. In this case looking at meteorites you want to buy and then > not carefully researching making a payment and then feeling full of > frustration and aggravation at how to make the payment or what road to go > down. I truly hope this helps in the future. > > Have a great day! > > Brian > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco > > > > Hi list, > > Please help - I mailed a payment to a Moroccan dealer for a lot of > chondrites via a paper check, he got it today, but he told me that the banks > over there don't recognize it even though it is completely valid. I can't > afford the shipping costs through FedEx for the lot I want - which will be > over $200 CND... so what other less expensive options do you suggest? > > Thank you in advance > > ----------- > Melanie > IMCA: 2975 > eBay: metmel2775 > Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic deals on Windows 7 now http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818 From carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 13 09:33:00 2009 From: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com (Carl 's) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:33:00 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco Message-ID: Hi Melanie, Cool! Thanks to you I've gotten some tips on how to order meteorites from Moroccan dealers. Hope your transaction is a quick and smooth one. Take care. Carl >Actually it was a postal money ... _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9690331&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009 From fujmon at mac.com Fri Nov 13 11:31:12 2009 From: fujmon at mac.com (Gary Fujihara) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:31:12 -1000 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD-Neat November eBay Auctions Message-ID: We got past Halloween, but there are still some sweet treats available on my eBay auctions ending tomorrow, Saturday, November 14, starting at 9:08 am PST / 12:08 pm Eastern / 4:08 pm London. Here are just a few highlights: Bassikounou H5 4.09g 100% prim/sec FC, Bid at $5.50 Chergach H5 9.85g 97% Fresh FC, Bid at 99? Allende CV3 3.83g Crusted Frag, Bid at $19.99 NWA x Poss CV3 14.49g Clean, Bid at $29 Camel Donga Euc 2.29g AAA Flowlines, Ridges Millbillillie Euc 4.36g AAA Oriented Baby Millie Tatahouine Dio 1.81g Fragment, Bid at 99? Norton County Aub 1.0g Crusted Frags, Bid at $9.99 Bilanga Dio 1.08g Crusted Frags, Bid at 99? Mundrabilla IAB-ung 18.06g Indiv, Bid at $5.50 Henbury IIIAB 14.72g Sculpted Beauty Sikhote Alin IIAB 6.39g Oriented Bullet, Start at 99? Mantle Xenolith 123.8g Split & Polished, Start at $7.49 ... and much, much more. There?s too much to list here, but to see all of the Novel November deals, point your web browser to this link: http://shop.ebay.com/fujmon/m.html Preview of Nov 21 auction: a couple of oriented uNWAs, oriented Juancheng 17.02g, Chergach 12.45g, Allende frags w/ monster CAIs, uNWA poss CV3 12.27g, another perfect Camel 2.04g and Millie 2.71g, Tatahouine 1.76g, NWA 2932 Mes 12.10g, Henbury 11.03g, oriented Sikhote Alin 11.03g, Mantle Xenolith with awesome RED crystals 681.1g perfectly split and polished halves. Gary Fujihara AstroDay Institute 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720 (808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com http://astroday.net From cdtucson at cox.net Thu Nov 12 16:52:10 2009 From: cdtucson at cox.net (cdtucson at cox.net) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:52:10 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20091112165210.DR9KE.152331.imail@fed1rmwml28> Carl. Odd meteorites are found in known strewn fields all the time. If you are lucky you will find an odd one. Bob Haag once purchased a box of Millbillillie eucrites from Australia and found the now famous Calcalong creek lunar in the same box. Calcalong Creek turned out to be the first lunar found outside of the ice field s and the first lunar available to collectors. To answer your question; You are correct. They would all be Holbrook etc unless you prove otherwise by having it checked. NWA there is no clue unless you are a Mike Farmer. He can spot a paired meteorite a mile away like no others. My 2 cents. Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax ---- Carl 's wrote: > > Hi Greg, Aziz, All, > > > I would like to thank Aziz and others on their informative input on buying meteorites from Morocco. > > I'm confused about this pairing of meteorites and I think Greg touched on this briefly. This has been bugging me since I started collecting. I don't want to start a flame war so please, PLEASE think twice before hitting the send key on this reply. > > Take for example a dealer/collector buys a 300g stone from Morocco, gets it classified and it is named NWA 9999, a very, very rare Diogenite. Later, more stones are found and it sure looks like NWA 9999. I understand the original 300g stone is NWA 9999 but the others found later should be considered paired unless it has the lab work and documents to back it up. > > Using this logic, all subsequent finds of Holbrook, Franconia, Gold Basin,...etc. should be considered pairings and not in fact Holbrook, Franconia, Gold Basin? Is this because these meteorites have established strewn fields, respectively, but the NWA meteorites do not? How can anyone be sure a stray meteorite has not fallen and was collected in these U.S. strewn fields without cutting it or lab work done on each? Perhaps an experienced meteorite hunter would know the difference but what of a novice like myself? > > > Carl > > > Greg wrote: > >"...Treat the meteorites right; as in, accuracy of type, TKW, self-pairings > (fraud), etc., and you will not have problems!!!"... > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Fri Nov 13 13:48:48 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:48:48 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Mini ice age took hold of Europe in months Message-ID: <20091113134848.2EZ5O.735777.imail@eastrmwml33> Mini ice age took hold of Europe in months by Kate Ravilious, Nov. 11, 2009, New Scientist Magazine no. 2734, http://tiny.cc/YoungerDryas http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427344.800-mini-ice-age-took-hold-of-europe-in-months.html?full=true&print=true http://www.newscientist.com/issue/2734 Dr. William Patterson?s Publications can be found at: http://geochemistry.usask.ca/publications.html The above article stated: ?Two studies published in 2006 show that the same thing happened again 8200 years ago, when the Northern hemisphere went through another cold spell? The New Scientist article about these two studies is: Broken ice dam blamed for 300-year chill by Kurt Kleiner, January 10, 2006, New Scientist Magazine. http://tiny.cc/8200BP http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8558-broken-ice-dam-blamed-for-300year-chill.html ?In the new papers, one in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences and the other in the current Quaternary Science Reviews, two teams of researchers using different computer models say that both models show that such a freshwater flood could shut down ocean circulation in a way that is consistent with temperature data from the time.? These papers demonstrate that processes other than extraterrestrial impacts can cause events very similar to the Youmnger Dryas interval. They are: LeGrande, A. N., G. A. Schmidt, D. T. Shindell, C. V. Field, R. L. Miller, D. M. Koch, G. Faluvegi, and G. Hoffmann, 2006, Consistent simulations of multiple proxy responses to an abrupt climate change event. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, vol. 103 no. 4, pp. 837-842 http://www.pnas.org/content/103/4/837.abstract Wiersma, A. P., and H. Renssen, 2006, Model-data comparison for the 8.2 ka BP event: confirmation of a forcing mechanism by catastrophic drainage of Laurentide Lakes. Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 25, no. 1-2, pp. 63-88. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.quascirev.2005.07.009" Another paper is: Alleya, R. A., and A. M. Agustsdottira, 2005, The 8k event: cause and consequences of a major Holocene abrupt climate change. Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 24, no. 10-11, pp. 1123-1149. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.quascirev.2004.12.004" Yours, Paul H. From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Fri Nov 13 13:52:05 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:52:05 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Corrected URLs for "Mini ice age took hold of Europe in months" Post Message-ID: <20091113135205.O8K3L.735814.imail@eastrmwml33> The correct URLs for the papers mentioned in "Mini ice age took hold of Europe in months" post are: Wiersma, A. P., and H. Renssen, 2006, Model-data comparison for the 8.2 ka BP event: confirmation of a forcing mechanism by catastrophic drainage of Laurentide Lakes. Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 25, no. 1-2, pp. 63-88. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.quascirev.2005.07.009 Another paper is: Alleya, R. A., and A. M. Agustsdottira, 2005, The 8k event: cause and consequences of a major Holocene abrupt climate change. Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 24, no. 10-11, pp. 1123-1149. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.quascirev.2004.12.004 From cynapse at charter.net Fri Nov 13 14:03:43 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:03:43 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] They don't call, they don't write... In-Reply-To: <200911130002.nAD02n6U002084@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> References: <200911130002.nAD02n6U002084@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> Message-ID: Good somewhat meteorite related article from the latest issue of Scientific American. http://webpages.charter.net/garrison6328/tmp/ From SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com Fri Nov 13 15:24:11 2009 From: SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com (SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 15:24:11 EST Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 13, 2009 Message-ID: http://www.rocksfromspace.org/puerto_lapice_spain_meteorite_hunt.html From joshuatreemuseum at embarqmail.com Fri Nov 13 15:36:48 2009 From: joshuatreemuseum at embarqmail.com (JoshuaTreeMuseum) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 15:36:48 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] A Miss Is As Good As A Mile Message-ID: Or 9,000 miles as the case may be. http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/11/11/2124702.aspx Space Rock Buzzes Past Earth Posted: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 1:55 PM by Alan Boyle Asteroid-watchers say a space rock about as big as a garage came within 9,000 miles (14,000 kilometers) of Earth last Friday, just 15 hours after it was detected. Experts quickly determined that the asteroid 2009 VA would miss us - and even if it came directly at us, it wouldn't have caused a catastrophe. Nevertheless, the close encounter serves as a reminder that someday a much bigger rock may well hit us and that it's best to be prepared. In this week's recap of the event, NASA's Near-Earth Object Program Office reported that 2009 VA came well within the moon's orbit - so close, in fact, that the asteroid's orbital path was bent by Earth's gravitational pull. NASA and other space agencies around the world have been keeping increasingly close track of near-Earth asteroids and comets, with a strong assist from amateur astronomers. In this case, the object was first detected by the Catalina Sky Survey at the University of Arizona. It was quickly identified by the Minor Planet Center in Cambridge, Mass., as a close-approaching asteroid. Then NASA experts worked out its orbit and gave the all-clear. Why wasn't the rock found sooner? Well, smaller objects are more difficult to detect in advance, and this one was estimated to be only 7 meters (23 feet) wide. That's nowhere near as big as the 10-kilometer-wide (6-mile-wide) object that apparently did in the dinosaurs 65 million years ago - or even the 30-meter-wide (100-foot-wide) Tunguska object that was thought to have wreaked destruction in a Siberian forest in 1908. For what it's worth, the Defense Department's Joint Space Operations Center tracks about 19,000 orbital objects down to the size of 10 centimeters (4 inches), and NASA tracks bits of space junk that are even smaller. But incoming near-Earth objects are trickier to track until they're almost upon us. In the close-but-no-collision category, this one was No. 3 on NASA's list for cataloged asteroids: A meter-wide (yard-wide) asteroid came within 6,150 kilometers (3,821 miles) in October 2008, while another space rock about the size of 2009 VA passed within 6,535 kilometers (4,060 miles) in March 2004. If 2009 VA had entered the atmosphere, it almost certainly would have blown itself up before hitting the ground - just as a larger asteroid did a month ago, without warning, in the skies over Indonesia. A somewhat smaller asteroid met a similar fate in the skies over Africa about 13 months ago. (Months later, students in Sudan found 4 kilograms (8.7 pounds) of meteorites that fell to Earth after last year's blast.) Such atmospheric blow-ups release energy equivalent to about a kiloton of TNT. In comparison, the Hiroshima atomic bomb set off a roughly 15-kiloton blast. So, for several reasons, we shouldn't hit the alarm button over 2009 VA. But that doesn't mean we should hit the snooze button, either: The Indonesia blast and the surprise pummeling that Jupiter took back in July are just foretastes of nasty surprises that could be waiting for us. The more we know about asteroids and how to fend them off, the better. Here are some reports that lay out the asteroid threat and what NASA has been doing about it: a.. How to track the 'wolves of the solar system' b.. NASA downgrades asteroid threat in 2036 c.. Experts urge more action on asteroids d.. Interactive: Close encounters of the asteroid kind e.. Newsvine poll: What do you think of the asteroid threat? Update for 3:35 p.m. ET: I've upped the estimate for the dino-killing asteroid to a whopping 10 kilometers (6 miles) across. Anything bigger than 1 kilometer wide would be considered capable of causing a global catastrophe. From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Fri Nov 13 16:54:07 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:54:07 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites Money Morocco Message-ID: <00f201ca64ab$d51ca550$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> Good Evening, maybe I should tell our experiences with our Moroccan colleagues, as NWA is our main field of our occupation and Stefan was in Morocco from beginning on of the NWA-period. Because some of the assertions made here are in our eyes not acceptable. First of all we all have to bring to our minds to whome all this wealth of new meteorites that we have today is due to. I'm old enough to remember the days before the NWA-rush, where dealers, collectors and scientists traded forth and back always the same few stones. Nowadays we got in roughly 10 years more new meteorites than 40 years of Antarctic hunts will yield, we have all the rare types, where we could only dream of the hundred years before. And we have them at prices, that finally each and every collector can take part in that fascinating world. We got from Morocco stones, of which no scientist could divine, that something like that could exist at all. NWA was the historical boost for science, for the collectors and partially also for the meteorite trade. And who made this all possible? The Moroccan people and the people of Maghreb. Full stop. We hear here on the list so often rants and words of haughtiness about the Moroccan dealers, hunters, colleagues, experts. What I never will understand, how people could speak so bad about them; people, who built up their wealth and their reputation, they pride themselves today, with the stones the Moroccans delivered to them. Why they then weren't going searching for meteorites by their own in the deserts, if their business partners were so lousy as they tell? Ask the US-hunters, ask the Oman-hunters, how many stones you have to pick up, until you have a mediocre eucrite or a CV3, those stones, we all take for granted. The people in Sahara are doing an incredible job. Yes of course, there are also black sheeps in Morocco - but those we do have also among the Western dealers. And of course down there is simply not the infrastructure, that one would get each stone perfectly and readily classified and that the weights and the find data would be known. But that is a hundred times balanced, by the often lower prices there and by the circumstance that one gets there such great stones at all! Of course it can be here and there risky for a private collector, because they often can't know the dealer yet, but why shall professional dealers complain about the Moroccans? It is plain & simply part of their job, to recognize the stones there, to recognize pairings, to buy them in Morocco and to bring them to classification. If they don't want to do that, then they shall sell classic and historic meteorites. And some of the recent posts here on the list ignore the positive developments, the Moroccans made. First of all you find a lot of true experts there, who know their stones very well. Partially they started to send samples to classification. Note also, that we started to integrate the Moroccans into IMCA. And that sweeping blow, condemning all Moroccans - we can't confirm that perspective in no way. Our experience is rather, that our partners, if a stone turns out to be a pratfall, often are exerted to limit the damage, in taking back stones or in balancing it with the next deal. And why? Because there exist a very simple rule. Not only for Morocco, but for life: Treat your partner with respect and fairness and he will treat you the same way too. Our opinion. Good night! Martin From majbaermann at web.de Fri Nov 13 17:03:35 2009 From: majbaermann at web.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Matthias_B=E4rmann?=) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 23:03:35 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites Money Morocco References: <00f201ca64ab$d51ca550$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: <0BD560B0F3164F6784E72292A408A2D3@thinkcentre> Well spoken, Martin - I agree! Matthias ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Altmann" To: Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:54 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites Money Morocco > Good Evening, > > maybe I should tell our experiences with our Moroccan colleagues, > as NWA is our main field of our occupation and Stefan was in Morocco from > beginning on of the NWA-period. > Because some of the assertions made here are in our eyes not acceptable. > > First of all we all have to bring to our minds to whome all this wealth of > new meteorites that we have today is due to. > I'm old enough to remember the days before the NWA-rush, where dealers, > collectors and scientists traded forth and back always the same few > stones. > Nowadays we got in roughly 10 years more new meteorites than 40 years of > Antarctic hunts will yield, we have all the rare types, where we could > only > dream of the hundred years before. And we have them at prices, that > finally > each and every collector can take part in that fascinating world. > We got from Morocco stones, of which no scientist could divine, that > something like that could exist at all. > NWA was the historical boost for science, for the collectors and partially > also for the meteorite trade. > > And who made this all possible? > > The Moroccan people and the people of Maghreb. Full stop. > > > We hear here on the list so often rants and words of haughtiness about the > Moroccan dealers, hunters, colleagues, experts. > What I never will understand, how people could speak so bad about them; > people, who built up their wealth and their reputation, they pride > themselves today, with the stones the Moroccans delivered to them. > > Why they then weren't going searching for meteorites by their own in the > deserts, if their business partners were so lousy as they tell? > Ask the US-hunters, ask the Oman-hunters, how many stones you have to pick > up, until you have a mediocre eucrite or a CV3, those stones, we all take > for granted. > > The people in Sahara are doing an incredible job. > > Yes of course, there are also black sheeps in Morocco - but those we do > have > also among the Western dealers. > And of course down there is simply not the infrastructure, that one would > get each stone perfectly and readily classified and that the weights and > the > find data would be known. > But that is a hundred times balanced, by the often lower prices there and > by > the circumstance that one gets there such great stones at all! > Of course it can be here and there risky for a private collector, because > they often can't know the dealer yet, but why shall professional dealers > complain about the Moroccans? It is plain & simply part of their job, to > recognize the stones there, to recognize pairings, to buy them in Morocco > and to bring them to classification. If they don't want to do that, then > they shall sell classic and historic meteorites. > > And some of the recent posts here on the list ignore the positive > developments, the Moroccans made. First of all you find a lot of true > experts there, who know their stones very well. Partially they started to > send samples to classification. Note also, that we started to integrate > the > Moroccans into IMCA. > > And that sweeping blow, condemning all Moroccans - we can't confirm that > perspective in no way. > Our experience is rather, that our partners, if a stone turns out to be a > pratfall, often are exerted to limit the damage, in taking back stones or > in > balancing it with the next deal. > > And why? > > Because there exist a very simple rule. Not only for Morocco, but for > life: > > Treat your partner with respect and fairness > and he will treat you the same way too. > > > Our opinion. > Good night! > Martin > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com Fri Nov 13 17:10:26 2009 From: abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com (Abdelaziz Alhyane) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:10:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites Money Morocco In-Reply-To: <0BD560B0F3164F6784E72292A408A2D3@thinkcentre> Message-ID: <461790.17341.qm@web45404.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I call that the FACT, thanks Martin --- On Fri, 11/13/09, Matthias B?rmann wrote: > From: Matthias B?rmann > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites Money Morocco > To: "Martin Altmann" , Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 2:03 PM > Well spoken, Martin - I agree! > > Matthias > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Altmann" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:54 PM > Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites Money Morocco > > > > Good Evening, > > > > maybe I should tell our experiences with our Moroccan > colleagues, > > as NWA is our main field of our occupation and Stefan > was in Morocco from > > beginning on of the NWA-period. > > Because some of the assertions made here are in our > eyes not acceptable. > > > > First of all we all have to bring to our minds to > whome all this wealth of > > new meteorites that we have today is due to. > > I'm old enough to remember the days before the > NWA-rush, where dealers, > > collectors and scientists traded forth and back always > the same few stones. > > Nowadays we got in roughly 10 years more new > meteorites than 40 years of > > Antarctic hunts will yield, we have all the rare > types, where we could only > > dream of the hundred years before. And we have them at > prices, that finally > > each and every collector can take part in that > fascinating world. > > We got from Morocco stones, of which no scientist > could divine, that > > something like that could exist at all. > > NWA was the historical boost for science, for the > collectors and partially > > also for the meteorite trade. > > > > And who made this all possible? > > > > The Moroccan people and the people of Maghreb.? > Full stop. > > > > > > We hear here on the list so often rants and words of > haughtiness about the > > Moroccan dealers, hunters, colleagues, experts. > > What I never will understand, how people could speak > so bad about them; > > people, who built up their wealth and their > reputation, they pride > > themselves today, with the stones the Moroccans > delivered to them. > > > > Why they then weren't going searching for meteorites > by their own in the > > deserts, if their business partners were so lousy as > they tell? > > Ask the US-hunters, ask the Oman-hunters, how many > stones you have to pick > > up, until you have a mediocre eucrite or a CV3, those > stones, we all take > > for granted. > > > > The people in Sahara are doing an incredible job. > > > > Yes of course, there are also black sheeps in Morocco > - but those we do have > > also among the Western dealers. > > And of course down there is simply not the > infrastructure, that one would > > get each stone perfectly and readily classified and > that the weights and the > > find data would be known. > > But that is a hundred times balanced, by the often > lower prices there and by > > the circumstance that one gets there such great stones > at all! > > Of course it can be here and there risky for a private > collector, because > > they often can't know the dealer yet, but why shall > professional dealers > > complain about the Moroccans? It is plain & simply > part of their job, to > > recognize the stones there, to recognize pairings, to > buy them in Morocco > > and to bring them to classification. If they don't > want to do that, then > > they shall sell classic and historic meteorites. > > > > And some of the recent posts here on the list ignore > the positive > > developments, the Moroccans made. First of all you > find a lot of true > > experts there, who know their stones very well. > Partially they started to > > send samples to classification. Note also, that we > started to integrate the > > Moroccans into IMCA. > > > > And that sweeping blow, condemning all Moroccans - we > can't confirm that > > perspective in no way. > > Our experience is rather, that our partners, if a > stone turns out to be a > > pratfall, often are exerted to limit the damage, in > taking back stones or in > > balancing it with the next deal. > > > > And why? > > > > Because there exist a very simple rule. Not only for > Morocco, but for life: > > > > Treat your partner with respect and fairness > > and he will treat you the same way too. > > > > > > Our opinion. > > Good night! > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From gmhupe at htn.net Fri Nov 13 17:15:12 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:15:12 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 13, 2009 References: Message-ID: <9AD5F364AE8945B78C6A2DA2BF81F110@Gregor> Hi Michael, Thank you for posting the Pic-O-Day. Congratulations to Mike Farmer for his great eucrite find in Spain! Now I wish I would have went with them when invited. Oh well, next time! Keep up the good work, that terrain looks pretty rough and difficult to spot small black stones between the rocks and shadows. I hope the rest of your team finds some eucrites as well!! Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 3:24 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 13,2009 > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/puerto_lapice_spain_meteorite_hunt.html > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteoriteman at comcast.net Fri Nov 13 17:16:01 2009 From: meteoriteman at comcast.net (meteoriteman at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:16:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds 'Significant' Water on Moon Message-ID: <280329080.2330391258150561935.JavaMail.root@sz0098a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> It's offical! http://news.aol.com/article/nasa-finds-significant-water-on-moon/766576 Jim K From azizhabibi at yahoo.com Fri Nov 13 17:19:45 2009 From: azizhabibi at yahoo.com (habibi abdelaziz) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:19:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] a bolid over errachidia to el baraj Message-ID: <781138.58412.qm@web62002.mail.re1.yahoo.com> hi all i was out of reach , running hard, but i take a segond to tell you that today at 21.25?gmt ?a fireball have been watched over erfoud and heard a sonic boom over errachidia to elbarage this time it's in land so? be ready for a new fall,, so the morrocan near rich and erracchidia go for hunt, martin thanks for?your opinion,? they resume all, aziz habibi ?habibi aziz box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco phone. 21235576145 fax.21235576170 From grf2 at comcast.net Fri Nov 13 17:31:05 2009 From: grf2 at comcast.net (Jerry Flaherty) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:31:05 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 13, 2009 References: Message-ID: <2A38CF40755049DA905DBDEB28B6F1E8@ASUS> Gee Mike, lucky in love and meteorite hunting! -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 3:24 PM To: Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 13,2009 > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/puerto_lapice_spain_meteorite_hunt.html > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From majbaermann at web.de Fri Nov 13 17:38:27 2009 From: majbaermann at web.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Matthias_B=E4rmann?=) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 23:38:27 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] a bolid over errachidia to el baraj References: <781138.58412.qm@web62002.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <74ED628EEFCB4E8F8DC81462CA20C6D8@thinkcentre> Good news, Aziz, wish you a successfiul hunting. I've been always waiting for this year's Maghreb fall ;-) Best wishes for the Farmer team in Spain too. Kind regards, Matthias ----- Original Message ----- From: "habibi abdelaziz" To: "meteorite list" Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 11:19 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] a bolid over errachidia to el baraj hi all i was out of reach , running hard, but i take a segond to tell you that today at 21.25 gmt a fireball have been watched over erfoud and heard a sonic boom over errachidia to elbarage this time it's in land so be ready for a new fall,, so the morrocan near rich and erracchidia go for hunt, martin thanks for your opinion, they resume all, aziz habibi habibi aziz box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco phone. 21235576145 fax.21235576170 ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 13 17:39:50 2009 From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net (Brian Cox) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:39:50 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco References: Message-ID: Hi Melanie, I'm glad you are on top of this and that you are keeping in touch with the seller. I'm glad he's mailing back your postal money order. Hopefully the Moneyram will work out and he'll accept it as he said and you'll get your new meteorites. I wish you all the best and hope that you receive some really great and rare meteorites in the group. Have a great day! Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melanie Matthews" To: "Brian Cox" ; Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:15 AM Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco Hi Brian, listers. Actually it was a postal money order that I mailed out to him (Mr. Abdellah Afiniss), and yes it included the cost of the stones plus the shipping costs. I asked him to mail it back to me and he said he did. Once I get the slip back I'm going to get back the money I put onto it and re-send the payment to him - probably via Moneygram (which he told me he accepts). At first offered me a lot total of 8.5 kgs of chondrites (all unclassified),, knowing full well I couldn't afford all that I circled some stones in Paint.net (free image editing program similar to MSPaint) that I wanted in the photographs, emailed back to him and kindly asked him to send me images of each meteorite I picked sitting on the scale to show their weights... I then worked out the prices until I made the final decition on buying five rocks together weighing 837 grams.. As I said he has been very cooperative, and I thanks him and I thank all here on the list for their input/suggestions! ----------- Melanie IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get! ---------------------------------------- > From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:56:13 -0600 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to > Morocco > > Hello Melanie and list, > > In regards to your question of sending payments to Morocco, I have to ask > a > couple of questions and others also mentioned they weren't clear on your > question since you didn't seem to be including shipping costs. I'd like to > help you out and I mean this in the most thoughtful and kindest way > possible, so please don't take it negatively or have any anger towards me. > Make sure you include shipping costs when you were determining the total > amount of the payment you need to send to the seller and then send a check > and then say you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping costs if that is what > you agreed to buy from the seller? You have said this in the past about > not > having money to pay for something or to pay for the shipping costs. It's > good to ask for help if you are not experienced in sending payments > outside > of Canada beyond Paypal. This sounds like you decided to send a check for > the meteorites and then were going to decide about a payment for the > "shipping" as a separate payment or to pay for shipping later on. Is this > why you stated you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping costs after you had > sent your personal Canadian paper check? This doesn't sound right why you > wouldn't determine the full amount due to the seller for the items with > shipping and or insurance and then send one payment and later decide you > couldn't afford the shipping costs they gave you. > > Also, you stated you sent a "Paper Check" which, as I am thinking is a > "personal check" from your personal Canadian bank account by what you > wrote. > I'm confused to why would you think that a personal check from your > Canadian > bank account would be "valid" as you say, to a dealer in Morocco, which I > am > sure it is valid in Canada and you have money in your account, but most > likely would not be accepted in Morocco or any other country? You don't > often hear of dealers in Asia, Africa, Europe or for the most part any > dealers in the U.S. or anywhere in North or South America or Australia > that > would accept a personal Paper check from a bank in a different country, > although it may happen. A check from a Canadian bank account or from a > U.S. > bank account or any personal paper check from any other country most > likely > won't be accepted unless they verified with their bank first that they > could > accept that check. An example would be if there was Citibank in Canada and > then Citibank in the U.S. would accept that check or Citibank in England, > etc. .I'm sure if the check was from a bank that had a branch in that > country that it would be accepted, but it usually creates a hassle and is > time consuming to stand in line or through an ATM. As several members > mentioned bank wire is the safest and then probably FedEx payment, but > sending a paper check or money order isn't a good idea as Gary mentioned. > > I would like to offer a friendly suggestion to help you out. Please make > sure you discuss all the facts and figures with any dealer/collector > anywhere in the world before closing a deal. Remember you are entering a > contract with this dealer, whether it is on ebay or through their website > or > through correspondence with the dealer. On ebay this is stated as you are > entering a contract so be mindful of this. You need to finalize all costs. > You need to get the full amount that you owe in writing, email, etc. for > the > meteorites and any insurance and shipping and then you need to first > discuss > the method of payment to that dealer before you send any payment. I think > your first mistake here was that it sounds as if you didn't determine the > full costs of the meteorites with shipping, then you didn't ask the seller > if he or she would accept a "Personal Paper Check from another country. I > think you will have much better luck and increase good relations with > dealers through online sales, ebay and through the different meteorite > lists > you if you slow down and get the facts before making purchases and > payments. > > As you have written on your posts the equivalent of The Tom Hanks > character > from the Forest Gump movie, "Life is like a box of chocolates." You need > to stop and think that your eyes are bigger than your stomach and stop and > think of what you are wanting to bid on or buy first and how to pay for > it. > There is an old saying in America that you may or may not know in Canada. > "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach" which roughly means you saw the > food on the menu and you ordered all that looked good to eat, but your > stomach wasn't big enough to eat it all and you became very full before > you > could finish the meal. This is the same as the child that fills their > plate > up and can't eat it all at home. This also goes along with shopping at the > store when you are hungry and buying too much, as in buying more goodies > than you needed. In this case looking at meteorites you want to buy and > then > not carefully researching making a payment and then feeling full of > frustration and aggravation at how to make the payment or what road to go > down. I truly hope this helps in the future. > > Have a great day! > > Brian > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco > > > > Hi list, > > Please help - I mailed a payment to a Moroccan dealer for a lot of > chondrites via a paper check, he got it today, but he told me that the > banks > over there don't recognize it even though it is completely valid. I can't > afford the shipping costs through FedEx for the lot I want - which will be > over $200 CND... so what other less expensive options do you suggest? > > Thank you in advance > > ----------- > Melanie > IMCA: 2975 > eBay: metmel2775 > Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic deals on Windows 7 now http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818= From felipeg36 at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 17:47:15 2009 From: felipeg36 at gmail.com (Felipe Guajardo) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:47:15 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] a bolid over errachidia to el baraj In-Reply-To: <74ED628EEFCB4E8F8DC81462CA20C6D8@thinkcentre> References: <781138.58412.qm@web62002.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <74ED628EEFCB4E8F8DC81462CA20C6D8@thinkcentre> Message-ID: <18fdccaa0911131447g7638df9ai4547c8456de1c5a6@mail.gmail.com> Best of luck Aziz with the hunt!! Felipe On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Matthias B?rmann wrote: > Good news, Aziz, wish you a successfiul hunting. I've been always waiting > for this year's Maghreb fall ;-) > > Best wishes for the Farmer team in Spain too. > > Kind regards, > > Matthias > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "habibi abdelaziz" > To: "meteorite list" > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 11:19 PM > Subject: [meteorite-list] a bolid over errachidia to el baraj > > > hi all > i was out of reach , running hard, but i take a segond to tell you that > today at 21.25 gmt > a fireball have been watched over erfoud and heard a sonic boom over > errachidia to elbarage > > this time it's in land so be ready for a new fall,, > > so the morrocan near rich and erracchidia go for hunt, > > martin thanks for your opinion, they resume all, > > > aziz habibi > habibi aziz > box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco > phone. 21235576145 > fax.21235576170 > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com Fri Nov 13 17:54:25 2009 From: abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com (Abdelaziz Alhyane) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:54:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <609737.82751.qm@web45402.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hello Brian and all, MoneyGram is available in Morocco, and Abdellah is a good person five stars in honesty and trust. My best Aziz --- On Fri, 11/13/09, Brian Cox wrote: > From: Brian Cox > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco > To: "Melanie Matthews" , meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 2:39 PM > Hi Melanie, > > I'm glad you are on top of this and that you are keeping in > touch with the seller. I'm glad he's mailing back your > postal money order. Hopefully the Moneyram will work out and > he'll accept it as he said and you'll get your new > meteorites. > > I wish you all the best and hope that you receive some > really great and rare meteorites in the group. > > Have a great day! > > Brian > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melanie Matthews" > > To: "Brian Cox" ; > > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:15 AM > Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments > from Canada toMorocco > > > > Hi Brian, listers. > Actually it was a postal money order that I > mailed out to him (Mr. Abdellah Afiniss), and yes it > included the cost > of the stones plus the shipping costs. I asked him to mail > it back to > me and he said he did. > > Once I get the slip back I'm going to > get back the money I put onto it and re-send the payment to > him - > probably via Moneygram (which he told me he accepts). > > > > At first offered me a lot total of 8.5 kgs of chondrites > (all > unclassified),, knowing full well I couldn't afford all > that I circled > some stones in Paint.net (free image editing program > similar to > MSPaint) that I wanted in the photographs, emailed back to > him and > kindly asked him to send me images of each meteorite I > picked sitting > on the scale to show their weights... I then worked out the > prices > until I made the final decition on buying five rocks > together weighing > 837 grams.. > > > > As I said he has been very cooperative, and I thanks him > and I thank all here on the list for their > input/suggestions! > > ----------- > Melanie > IMCA: 2975 > eBay: metmel2775 > Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 > > Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you > never know what you're gonna get! > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:56:13 -0600 > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send > payments from Canada to Morocco > > > > Hello Melanie and list, > > > > In regards to your question of sending payments to > Morocco, I have to ask a > > couple of questions and others also mentioned they > weren't clear on your > > question since you didn't seem to be including > shipping costs. I'd like to > > help you out and I mean this in the most thoughtful > and kindest way > > possible, so please don't take it negatively or have > any anger towards me. > > Make sure you include shipping costs when you were > determining the total > > amount of the payment you need to send to the seller > and then send a check > > and then say you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping > costs if that is what > > you agreed to buy from the seller? You have said this > in the past about not > > having money to pay for something or to pay for the > shipping costs. It's > > good to ask for help if you are not experienced in > sending payments outside > > of Canada beyond Paypal. This sounds like you decided > to send a check for > > the meteorites and then were going to decide about a > payment for the > > "shipping" as a separate payment or to pay for > shipping later on. Is this > > why you stated you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping > costs after you had > > sent your personal Canadian paper check? This doesn't > sound right why you > > wouldn't determine the full amount due to the seller > for the items with > > shipping and or insurance and then send one payment > and later decide you > > couldn't afford the shipping costs they gave you. > > > > Also, you stated you sent a "Paper Check" which, as I > am thinking is a > > "personal check" from your personal Canadian bank > account by what you wrote. > > I'm confused to why would you think that a personal > check from your Canadian > > bank account would be "valid" as you say, to a dealer > in Morocco, which I am > > sure it is valid in Canada and you have money in your > account, but most > > likely would not be accepted in Morocco or any other > country? You don't > > often hear of dealers in Asia, Africa, Europe or for > the most part any > > dealers in the U.S. or anywhere in North or South > America or Australia that > > would accept a personal Paper check from a bank in a > different country, > > although it may happen. A check from a Canadian bank > account or from a U.S. > > bank account or any personal paper check from any > other country most likely > > won't be accepted unless they verified with their bank > first that they could > > accept that check. An example would be if there was > Citibank in Canada and > > then Citibank in the U.S. would accept that check or > Citibank in England, > > etc. .I'm sure if the check was from a bank that had a > branch in that > > country that it would be accepted, but it usually > creates a hassle and is > > time consuming to stand in line or through an ATM. As > several members > > mentioned bank wire is the safest and then probably > FedEx payment, but > > sending a paper check or money order isn't a good idea > as Gary mentioned. > > > > I would like to offer a friendly suggestion to help > you out. Please make > > sure you discuss all the facts and figures with any > dealer/collector > > anywhere in the world before closing a deal. Remember > you are entering a > > contract with this dealer, whether it is on ebay or > through their website or > > through correspondence with the dealer. On ebay this > is stated as you are > > entering a contract so be mindful of this. You need to > finalize all costs. > > You need to get the full amount that you owe in > writing, email, etc. for the > > meteorites and any insurance and shipping and then you > need to first discuss > > the method of payment to that dealer before you send > any payment. I think > > your first mistake here was that it sounds as if you > didn't determine the > > full costs of the meteorites with shipping, then you > didn't ask the seller > > if he or she would accept a "Personal Paper Check from > another country. I > > think you will have much better luck and increase good > relations with > > dealers through online sales, ebay and through the > different meteorite lists > > you if you slow down and get the facts before making > purchases and payments. > > > > As you have written on your posts the equivalent of > The Tom Hanks character > > from the Forest Gump movie, "Life is like a box of > chocolates." You need > > to stop and think that your eyes are bigger than your > stomach and stop and > > think of what you are wanting to bid on or buy first > and how to pay for it. > > There is an old saying in America that you may or may > not know in Canada. > > "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach" which roughly > means you saw the > > food on the menu and you ordered all that looked good > to eat, but your > > stomach wasn't big enough to eat it all and you became > very full before you > > could finish the meal. This is the same as the child > that fills their plate > > up and can't eat it all at home. This also goes along > with shopping at the > > store when you are hungry and buying too much, as in > buying more goodies > > than you needed. In this case looking at meteorites > you want to buy and then > > not carefully researching making a payment and then > feeling full of > > frustration and aggravation at how to make the payment > or what road to go > > down. I truly hope this helps in the future. > > > > Have a great day! > > > > Brian > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco > > > > > > > > Hi list, > > > > Please help - I mailed a payment to a Moroccan dealer > for a lot of > > chondrites via a paper check, he got it today, but he > told me that the banks > > over there don't recognize it even though it is > completely valid. I can't > > afford the shipping costs through FedEx for the lot I > want - which will be > > over $200 CND... so what other less expensive options > do you suggest? > > > > Thank you in advance > > > > ----------- > > Melanie > > IMCA: 2975 > > eBay: metmel2775 > > Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > _________________________________________________________________ > Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic > deals on Windows 7 now > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818= > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From fujmon at mac.com Fri Nov 13 19:01:45 2009 From: fujmon at mac.com (Gary Fujihara) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:01:45 -1000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites Money Morocco In-Reply-To: <00f201ca64ab$d51ca550$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> References: <00f201ca64ab$d51ca550$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: Well stated Martin, and I am in complete agreement. All my dealings with Moroccans have been mutually favorable, and I am appreciative of the service they provide to meteoritics - both collectors and research scientists. Mistakes can be made - we are human, but when misidentification happens, the Moroccans have been most accommodating to either take back material, or credit the difference. I have not done business with anyone who has deliberately misrepresented material to me in Morocco, and that?s more than can be said of at least one dealer in the US. gary On Nov 13, 2009, at 11:54 AM, Martin Altmann wrote: > Good Evening, > > maybe I should tell our experiences with our Moroccan colleagues, > as NWA is our main field of our occupation and Stefan was in Morocco > from > beginning on of the NWA-period. > Because some of the assertions made here are in our eyes not > acceptable. > > First of all we all have to bring to our minds to whome all this > wealth of > new meteorites that we have today is due to. > I'm old enough to remember the days before the NWA-rush, where > dealers, > collectors and scientists traded forth and back always the same few > stones. > Nowadays we got in roughly 10 years more new meteorites than 40 > years of > Antarctic hunts will yield, we have all the rare types, where we > could only > dream of the hundred years before. And we have them at prices, that > finally > each and every collector can take part in that fascinating world. > We got from Morocco stones, of which no scientist could divine, that > something like that could exist at all. > NWA was the historical boost for science, for the collectors and > partially > also for the meteorite trade. > > And who made this all possible? > > The Moroccan people and the people of Maghreb. Full stop. > > > We hear here on the list so often rants and words of haughtiness > about the > Moroccan dealers, hunters, colleagues, experts. > What I never will understand, how people could speak so bad about > them; > people, who built up their wealth and their reputation, they pride > themselves today, with the stones the Moroccans delivered to them. > > Why they then weren't going searching for meteorites by their own in > the > deserts, if their business partners were so lousy as they tell? > Ask the US-hunters, ask the Oman-hunters, how many stones you have > to pick > up, until you have a mediocre eucrite or a CV3, those stones, we all > take > for granted. > > The people in Sahara are doing an incredible job. > > Yes of course, there are also black sheeps in Morocco - but those we > do have > also among the Western dealers. > And of course down there is simply not the infrastructure, that one > would > get each stone perfectly and readily classified and that the weights > and the > find data would be known. > But that is a hundred times balanced, by the often lower prices > there and by > the circumstance that one gets there such great stones at all! > Of course it can be here and there risky for a private collector, > because > they often can't know the dealer yet, but why shall professional > dealers > complain about the Moroccans? It is plain & simply part of their > job, to > recognize the stones there, to recognize pairings, to buy them in > Morocco > and to bring them to classification. If they don't want to do that, > then > they shall sell classic and historic meteorites. > > And some of the recent posts here on the list ignore the positive > developments, the Moroccans made. First of all you find a lot of true > experts there, who know their stones very well. Partially they > started to > send samples to classification. Note also, that we started to > integrate the > Moroccans into IMCA. > > And that sweeping blow, condemning all Moroccans - we can't confirm > that > perspective in no way. > Our experience is rather, that our partners, if a stone turns out to > be a > pratfall, often are exerted to limit the damage, in taking back > stones or in > balancing it with the next deal. > > And why? > > Because there exist a very simple rule. Not only for Morocco, but > for life: > > Treat your partner with respect and fairness > and he will treat you the same way too. > > > Our opinion. > Good night! > Martin > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Gary Fujihara AstroDay Institute 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720 (808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com http://astroday.net From mlblood at cox.net Fri Nov 13 19:36:22 2009 From: mlblood at cox.net (Michael Blood) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:36:22 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] 34 Items up for Tucson Meteorite Auction (ad) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yo! Now have 34 items up - most are KILLER, not a one has a Minimum bid..... Check it out at: http://michaelbloodmeteorites.com/TucsonAuction10.html (Hit "Refresh" if you have been there before today) Last few days to put in stuff at lowest consignment fee rate. (email me with a list, even if you don't have photos yet). RSVP Best wishes, Michael From dave at fallingrocks.com Fri Nov 13 19:37:03 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:37:03 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Lost or stolen meteorite Message-ID: Good evening All, After quite some time searching the halls of the Smithsonian, I need to report a definitely lost and possibly stolen meteorite shipment. Small, but important to Georgia meteorite history. I donated a ~100 gram half end section of the Statesboro meteorite to the Smithsonian earlier this year, and they have yet to find the package on their end. If anyone hears of Statesboro being offered for sale, this would almost certainly be the source as I either hold or have accounted for all of this mass. The missing piece is not pictured in the following link, but it at least provides a sense for the appearance of the stone, etc: http://www.fallingrocks.com/Collections/Statesboro.htm Thanks in advance for any insight should this specimen turn up in the meteorite community... All best, Dave Gheesling IMCA #5967 www.fallingrocks.com From damoclid at yahoo.com Fri Nov 13 19:44:47 2009 From: damoclid at yahoo.com (Richard Kowalski) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:44:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] 34 Items up for Tucson Meteorite Auction (ad) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <900204.50147.qm@web33903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm drooling already. Can't wait! -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA #1081 --- On Fri, 11/13/09, Michael Blood wrote: > From: Michael Blood > Subject: [meteorite-list] 34 Items up for Tucson Meteorite Auction (ad) > To: "Meteorite List" > Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 5:36 PM > Yo! > ? ? Now have 34 items up - most are KILLER, not a > one has a > Minimum bid..... Check it out at: > > http://michaelbloodmeteorites.com/TucsonAuction10.html > > (Hit "Refresh" if you have been there before today) > > Last few days to put in stuff at lowest consignment fee > rate. > (email me with a list, even if you don't have photos yet). > ? ? ? ? RSVP > ? ? ? ? Best wishes, Michael > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteoritefinder at yahoo.com Fri Nov 13 19:46:19 2009 From: meteoritefinder at yahoo.com (Robert Woolard) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:46:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 13, 2009 Message-ID: <854102.6183.qm@web39608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello Mike and Mike, ? Thanks to both of you for bringing us all the great pic-of-the-day. I love seeing freshly found meteorites laying on the ground! ( Well... MOSTLY when it's ME that just found them, I'll have to admit? ;-)? ? But, this vicarious thrill is still nice. ? Congrats, Mike on the find. Now please .... let Melody find one and don't hog them all.?;-) ? Best wishes, ? Robert Woolard?? ? --- On Fri, 11/13/09, SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com wrote: > From: SPACEROCKSINC at aol.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 13, 2009 > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 2:24 PM > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/puerto_lapice_spain_meteorite_hunt.html? > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From STARSANDSCOPES at aol.com Fri Nov 13 19:53:21 2009 From: STARSANDSCOPES at aol.com (STARSANDSCOPES at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:53:21 EST Subject: [meteorite-list] Ad Petrographic microscope eyepiece Message-ID: Hi list, I have the usual meteorites and microscope stuff listed on eBay but I wanted to call attention to a particular item for meteorite thin section fans. It is an Olympus eyepiece with a grain size reticle built in. It is real cool and fun to use. You can find it at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260506425984&ssPageName=S TRK:MESELX:IT While you are there, please check out my meteorites listed as well. Tom Phillips From grf2 at comcast.net Fri Nov 13 20:23:44 2009 From: grf2 at comcast.net (Jerry Flaherty) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 20:23:44 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] 34 Items up for Tucson Meteorite Auction (ad) References: Message-ID: <065DD3F539714553AABB75A666413A6E@ASUS> Drool is RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!! -------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Blood" Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:36 PM To: "Meteorite List" Subject: [meteorite-list] 34 Items up for Tucson Meteorite Auction (ad) > Yo! > Now have 34 items up - most are KILLER, not a one has a > Minimum bid..... Check it out at: > > http://michaelbloodmeteorites.com/TucsonAuction10.html > > (Hit "Refresh" if you have been there before today) > > Last few days to put in stuff at lowest consignment fee rate. > (email me with a list, even if you don't have photos yet). > RSVP > Best wishes, Michael > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From rlenssen at planet.nl Fri Nov 13 20:20:08 2009 From: rlenssen at planet.nl (Rob Lenssen) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 02:20:08 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canadato Morocco References: Message-ID: <349A6ACB96E04A97A5062C222DF1E623@EIGENAARNJEQJY> Hi Melanie, I made several deals with Abdellah Afiniss over the last years, and learned to know him as a very kind and trustworthy dealer. I'm sure he will make you a happy customer. Kind regards, Rob Lenssen IMCA #1681 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melanie Matthews" To: "Brian Cox" ; Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canadato Morocco > > Hi Brian, listers. > Actually it was a postal money order that I > mailed out to him (Mr. Abdellah Afiniss), and yes it included the cost > of the stones plus the shipping costs. I asked him to mail it back to > me and he said he did. > > Once I get the slip back I'm going to > get back the money I put onto it and re-send the payment to him - > probably via Moneygram (which he told me he accepts). > > > > At first offered me a lot total of 8.5 kgs of chondrites (all > unclassified),, knowing full well I couldn't afford all that I circled > some stones in Paint.net (free image editing program similar to > MSPaint) that I wanted in the photographs, emailed back to him and > kindly asked him to send me images of each meteorite I picked sitting > on the scale to show their weights... I then worked out the prices > until I made the final decition on buying five rocks together weighing > 837 grams.. > > > > As I said he has been very cooperative, and I thanks him and I thank all > here on the list for their input/suggestions! > > ----------- > Melanie > IMCA: 2975 > eBay: metmel2775 > Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 > > Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know > what you're gonna get! > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------- >> From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net >> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:56:13 -0600 >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to >> Morocco >> >> Hello Melanie and list, >> >> In regards to your question of sending payments to Morocco, I have to ask >> a >> couple of questions and others also mentioned they weren't clear on your >> question since you didn't seem to be including shipping costs. I'd like >> to >> help you out and I mean this in the most thoughtful and kindest way >> possible, so please don't take it negatively or have any anger towards >> me. >> Make sure you include shipping costs when you were determining the total >> amount of the payment you need to send to the seller and then send a >> check >> and then say you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping costs if that is what >> you agreed to buy from the seller? You have said this in the past about >> not >> having money to pay for something or to pay for the shipping costs. It's >> good to ask for help if you are not experienced in sending payments >> outside >> of Canada beyond Paypal. This sounds like you decided to send a check for >> the meteorites and then were going to decide about a payment for the >> "shipping" as a separate payment or to pay for shipping later on. Is this >> why you stated you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping costs after you had >> sent your personal Canadian paper check? This doesn't sound right why you >> wouldn't determine the full amount due to the seller for the items with >> shipping and or insurance and then send one payment and later decide you >> couldn't afford the shipping costs they gave you. >> >> Also, you stated you sent a "Paper Check" which, as I am thinking is a >> "personal check" from your personal Canadian bank account by what you >> wrote. >> I'm confused to why would you think that a personal check from your >> Canadian >> bank account would be "valid" as you say, to a dealer in Morocco, which I >> am >> sure it is valid in Canada and you have money in your account, but most >> likely would not be accepted in Morocco or any other country? You don't >> often hear of dealers in Asia, Africa, Europe or for the most part any >> dealers in the U.S. or anywhere in North or South America or Australia >> that >> would accept a personal Paper check from a bank in a different country, >> although it may happen. A check from a Canadian bank account or from a >> U.S. >> bank account or any personal paper check from any other country most >> likely >> won't be accepted unless they verified with their bank first that they >> could >> accept that check. An example would be if there was Citibank in Canada >> and >> then Citibank in the U.S. would accept that check or Citibank in England, >> etc. .I'm sure if the check was from a bank that had a branch in that >> country that it would be accepted, but it usually creates a hassle and is >> time consuming to stand in line or through an ATM. As several members >> mentioned bank wire is the safest and then probably FedEx payment, but >> sending a paper check or money order isn't a good idea as Gary mentioned. >> >> I would like to offer a friendly suggestion to help you out. Please make >> sure you discuss all the facts and figures with any dealer/collector >> anywhere in the world before closing a deal. Remember you are entering a >> contract with this dealer, whether it is on ebay or through their website >> or >> through correspondence with the dealer. On ebay this is stated as you are >> entering a contract so be mindful of this. You need to finalize all >> costs. >> You need to get the full amount that you owe in writing, email, etc. for >> the >> meteorites and any insurance and shipping and then you need to first >> discuss >> the method of payment to that dealer before you send any payment. I think >> your first mistake here was that it sounds as if you didn't determine the >> full costs of the meteorites with shipping, then you didn't ask the >> seller >> if he or she would accept a "Personal Paper Check from another country. I >> think you will have much better luck and increase good relations with >> dealers through online sales, ebay and through the different meteorite >> lists >> you if you slow down and get the facts before making purchases and >> payments. >> >> As you have written on your posts the equivalent of The Tom Hanks >> character >> from the Forest Gump movie, "Life is like a box of chocolates." You need >> to stop and think that your eyes are bigger than your stomach and stop >> and >> think of what you are wanting to bid on or buy first and how to pay for >> it. >> There is an old saying in America that you may or may not know in Canada. >> "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach" which roughly means you saw the >> food on the menu and you ordered all that looked good to eat, but your >> stomach wasn't big enough to eat it all and you became very full before >> you >> could finish the meal. This is the same as the child that fills their >> plate >> up and can't eat it all at home. This also goes along with shopping at >> the >> store when you are hungry and buying too much, as in buying more goodies >> than you needed. In this case looking at meteorites you want to buy and >> then >> not carefully researching making a payment and then feeling full of >> frustration and aggravation at how to make the payment or what road to go >> down. I truly hope this helps in the future. >> >> Have a great day! >> >> Brian >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco >> >> >> >> Hi list, >> >> Please help - I mailed a payment to a Moroccan dealer for a lot of >> chondrites via a paper check, he got it today, but he told me that the >> banks >> over there don't recognize it even though it is completely valid. I can't >> afford the shipping costs through FedEx for the lot I want - which will >> be >> over $200 CND... so what other less expensive options do you suggest? >> >> Thank you in advance >> >> ----------- >> Melanie >> IMCA: 2975 >> eBay: metmel2775 >> Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > _________________________________________________________________ > Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic deals on Windows > 7 now > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From schraderj at rocketmail.com Fri Nov 13 21:07:25 2009 From: schraderj at rocketmail.com (Jack Schrader) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:07:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Ad Ban Cho Lae from Thailand Message-ID: <791920.97880.qm@web111011.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dear list members, I have just now listed a very nice fusion crusted fragment of Ban Cho Lae on eBay for anyone interested.? This is the next to the last piece that I will be auctioning off and it is a beauty with its jet black fusion crust.? This 6mm x 4mm fragment is fully fusion crusted on one side and weighs 0.0637 grams.? This fragment has a lot of surface area.? This auction will run for 5 days ending on Wednesday November 18.? Ban Cho Lae ( H5 W1 S0) is one of only four meteorites from Thailand and is extremely rare.? This auction is starting at only 99 cents with no reserve so here is your chance to add a very nice piece of this rarity to your collection.?? I have very little of this meteorite left for sale so don't miss this one! Thanks!? Jack http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160378076873? From bencubbin at hotmail.com Sat Nov 14 02:17:42 2009 From: bencubbin at hotmail.com (Howard Steffic) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 00:17:42 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD HORSEIs toMorocco In-Reply-To: <609737.82751.qm@web45402.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: , <609737.82751.qm@web45402.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Is anyone else getting tired of this moronic discussion? I laugh at how the "newbies" expect the veterans with the battle scars to tell them exacty how to .... Hunt Meteorites or Sell on Ebay or send money overseas. Get off the couch and do your own legwork. Now lets give this thread a proper burrial and get back to meteorites. Didn't someone actually find something (like a meteorite not an alien) that we can talk about? Howard Steffic > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:54:25 -0800 > From: abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com > To: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco > > Hello Brian and all, > MoneyGram is available in Morocco, and Abdellah is a good person five stars in honesty and trust. > My best > Aziz > > --- On Fri, 11/13/09, Brian Cox wrote: > >> From: Brian Cox >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toMorocco >> To: "Melanie Matthews" , meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 2:39 PM >> Hi Melanie, >> >> I'm glad you are on top of this and that you are keeping in >> touch with the seller. I'm glad he's mailing back your >> postal money order. Hopefully the Moneyram will work out and >> he'll accept it as he said and you'll get your new >> meteorites. >> >> I wish you all the best and hope that you receive some >> really great and rare meteorites in the group. >> >> Have a great day! >> >> Brian >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melanie Matthews" >> >> To: "Brian Cox" ; >> >> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:15 AM >> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments >> from Canada toMorocco >> >> >> >> Hi Brian, listers. >> Actually it was a postal money order that I >> mailed out to him (Mr. Abdellah Afiniss), and yes it >> included the cost >> of the stones plus the shipping costs. I asked him to mail >> it back to >> me and he said he did. >> >> Once I get the slip back I'm going to >> get back the money I put onto it and re-send the payment to >> him - >> probably via Moneygram (which he told me he accepts). >> >> >> >> At first offered me a lot total of 8.5 kgs of chondrites >> (all >> unclassified),, knowing full well I couldn't afford all >> that I circled >> some stones in Paint.net (free image editing program >> similar to >> MSPaint) that I wanted in the photographs, emailed back to >> him and >> kindly asked him to send me images of each meteorite I >> picked sitting >> on the scale to show their weights... I then worked out the >> prices >> until I made the final decition on buying five rocks >> together weighing >> 837 grams.. >> >> >> >> As I said he has been very cooperative, and I thanks him >> and I thank all here on the list for their >> input/suggestions! >> >> ----------- >> Melanie >> IMCA: 2975 >> eBay: metmel2775 >> Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 >> >> Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you >> never know what you're gonna get! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------- >>> From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net >>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:56:13 -0600 >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send >> payments from Canada to Morocco >>> >>> Hello Melanie and list, >>> >>> In regards to your question of sending payments to >> Morocco, I have to ask a >>> couple of questions and others also mentioned they >> weren't clear on your >>> question since you didn't seem to be including >> shipping costs. I'd like to >>> help you out and I mean this in the most thoughtful >> and kindest way >>> possible, so please don't take it negatively or have >> any anger towards me. >>> Make sure you include shipping costs when you were >> determining the total >>> amount of the payment you need to send to the seller >> and then send a check >>> and then say you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping >> costs if that is what >>> you agreed to buy from the seller? You have said this >> in the past about not >>> having money to pay for something or to pay for the >> shipping costs. It's >>> good to ask for help if you are not experienced in >> sending payments outside >>> of Canada beyond Paypal. This sounds like you decided >> to send a check for >>> the meteorites and then were going to decide about a >> payment for the >>> "shipping" as a separate payment or to pay for >> shipping later on. Is this >>> why you stated you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping >> costs after you had >>> sent your personal Canadian paper check? This doesn't >> sound right why you >>> wouldn't determine the full amount due to the seller >> for the items with >>> shipping and or insurance and then send one payment >> and later decide you >>> couldn't afford the shipping costs they gave you. >>> >>> Also, you stated you sent a "Paper Check" which, as I >> am thinking is a >>> "personal check" from your personal Canadian bank >> account by what you wrote. >>> I'm confused to why would you think that a personal >> check from your Canadian >>> bank account would be "valid" as you say, to a dealer >> in Morocco, which I am >>> sure it is valid in Canada and you have money in your >> account, but most >>> likely would not be accepted in Morocco or any other >> country? You don't >>> often hear of dealers in Asia, Africa, Europe or for >> the most part any >>> dealers in the U.S. or anywhere in North or South >> America or Australia that >>> would accept a personal Paper check from a bank in a >> different country, >>> although it may happen. A check from a Canadian bank >> account or from a U.S. >>> bank account or any personal paper check from any >> other country most likely >>> won't be accepted unless they verified with their bank >> first that they could >>> accept that check. An example would be if there was >> Citibank in Canada and >>> then Citibank in the U.S. would accept that check or >> Citibank in England, >>> etc. .I'm sure if the check was from a bank that had a >> branch in that >>> country that it would be accepted, but it usually >> creates a hassle and is >>> time consuming to stand in line or through an ATM. As >> several members >>> mentioned bank wire is the safest and then probably >> FedEx payment, but >>> sending a paper check or money order isn't a good idea >> as Gary mentioned. >>> >>> I would like to offer a friendly suggestion to help >> you out. Please make >>> sure you discuss all the facts and figures with any >> dealer/collector >>> anywhere in the world before closing a deal. Remember >> you are entering a >>> contract with this dealer, whether it is on ebay or >> through their website or >>> through correspondence with the dealer. On ebay this >> is stated as you are >>> entering a contract so be mindful of this. You need to >> finalize all costs. >>> You need to get the full amount that you owe in >> writing, email, etc. for the >>> meteorites and any insurance and shipping and then you >> need to first discuss >>> the method of payment to that dealer before you send >> any payment. I think >>> your first mistake here was that it sounds as if you >> didn't determine the >>> full costs of the meteorites with shipping, then you >> didn't ask the seller >>> if he or she would accept a "Personal Paper Check from >> another country. I >>> think you will have much better luck and increase good >> relations with >>> dealers through online sales, ebay and through the >> different meteorite lists >>> you if you slow down and get the facts before making >> purchases and payments. >>> >>> As you have written on your posts the equivalent of >> The Tom Hanks character >>> from the Forest Gump movie, "Life is like a box of >> chocolates." You need >>> to stop and think that your eyes are bigger than your >> stomach and stop and >>> think of what you are wanting to bid on or buy first >> and how to pay for it. >>> There is an old saying in America that you may or may >> not know in Canada. >>> "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach" which roughly >> means you saw the >>> food on the menu and you ordered all that looked good >> to eat, but your >>> stomach wasn't big enough to eat it all and you became >> very full before you >>> could finish the meal. This is the same as the child >> that fills their plate >>> up and can't eat it all at home. This also goes along >> with shopping at the >>> store when you are hungry and buying too much, as in >> buying more goodies >>> than you needed. In this case looking at meteorites >> you want to buy and then >>> not carefully researching making a payment and then >> feeling full of >>> frustration and aggravation at how to make the payment >> or what road to go >>> down. I truly hope this helps in the future. >>> >>> Have a great day! >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi list, >>> >>> Please help - I mailed a payment to a Moroccan dealer >> for a lot of >>> chondrites via a paper check, he got it today, but he >> told me that the banks >>> over there don't recognize it even though it is >> completely valid. I can't >>> afford the shipping costs through FedEx for the lot I >> want - which will be >>> over $200 CND... so what other less expensive options >> do you suggest? >>> >>> Thank you in advance >>> >>> ----------- >>> Melanie >>> IMCA: 2975 >>> eBay: metmel2775 >>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic >> deals on Windows 7 now >> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818= >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 From spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 14 04:05:58 2009 From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com (Melanie Matthews) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:05:58 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD HORSEIs toMorocco In-Reply-To: References: , <609737.82751.qm@web45402.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Get a grip=2C man=2C=2C if you don't like these threads involving newcomers= asking for important/useful advice - you can ignore/delete them.=20 Geesh!=20 ----------- Melanie IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what= you're gonna get! ---------------------------------------- > From: bencubbin at hotmail.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sat=2C 14 Nov 2009 00:17:42 -0700 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD= HORSEIs toMorocco > > > Is anyone else getting tired of this moronic discussion? > > I laugh at how the "newbies" expect the veterans with the battle scars to= tell them exacty how to .... Hunt Meteorites or Sell on Ebay or send money= overseas. Get off the couch and do your own legwork. > > Now lets give this thread a proper burrial and get back to meteorites. Di= dn't someone actually find something (like a meteorite not an alien) that w= e can talk about? > > Howard Steffic > > >> Date: Fri=2C 13 Nov 2009 14:54:25 -0800 >> From: abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com >> To: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com=3B meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com=3B= searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada toM= orocco >> >> Hello Brian and all=2C >> MoneyGram is available in Morocco=2C and Abdellah is a good person five = stars in honesty and trust. >> My best >> Aziz >> >> --- On Fri=2C 11/13/09=2C Brian Cox wrote: >> >>> From: Brian Cox=20 >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada to= Morocco >>> To: "Melanie Matthews" =2C meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> Date: Friday=2C November 13=2C 2009=2C 2:39 PM >>> Hi Melanie=2C >>> >>> I'm glad you are on top of this and that you are keeping in >>> touch with the seller. I'm glad he's mailing back your >>> postal money order. Hopefully the Moneyram will work out and >>> he'll accept it as he said and you'll get your new >>> meteorites. >>> >>> I wish you all the best and hope that you receive some >>> really great and rare meteorites in the group. >>> >>> Have a great day! >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melanie Matthews" >>>=20 >>> To: "Brian Cox" =3B >>>=20 >>> Sent: Friday=2C November 13=2C 2009 1:15 AM >>> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments >>> from Canada toMorocco >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Brian=2C listers. >>> Actually it was a postal money order that I >>> mailed out to him (Mr. Abdellah Afiniss)=2C and yes it >>> included the cost >>> of the stones plus the shipping costs. I asked him to mail >>> it back to >>> me and he said he did. >>> >>> Once I get the slip back I'm going to >>> get back the money I put onto it and re-send the payment to >>> him - >>> probably via Moneygram (which he told me he accepts). >>> >>> >>> >>> At first offered me a lot total of 8.5 kgs of chondrites >>> (all >>> unclassified)=2C=2C knowing full well I couldn't afford all >>> that I circled >>> some stones in Paint.net (free image editing program >>> similar to >>> MSPaint) that I wanted in the photographs=2C emailed back to >>> him and >>> kindly asked him to send me images of each meteorite I >>> picked sitting >>> on the scale to show their weights... I then worked out the >>> prices >>> until I made the final decition on buying five rocks >>> together weighing >>> 837 grams.. >>> >>> >>> >>> As I said he has been very cooperative=2C and I thanks him >>> and I thank all here on the list for their >>> input/suggestions! >>> >>> ----------- >>> Melanie >>> IMCA: 2975 >>> eBay: metmel2775 >>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 >>> >>> Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you >>> never know what you're gonna get! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------- >>>> From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net >>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> Date: Thu=2C 12 Nov 2009 14:56:13 -0600 >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send >>> payments from Canada to Morocco >>>> >>>> Hello Melanie and list=2C >>>> >>>> In regards to your question of sending payments to >>> Morocco=2C I have to ask a >>>> couple of questions and others also mentioned they >>> weren't clear on your >>>> question since you didn't seem to be including >>> shipping costs. I'd like to >>>> help you out and I mean this in the most thoughtful >>> and kindest way >>>> possible=2C so please don't take it negatively or have >>> any anger towards me. >>>> Make sure you include shipping costs when you were >>> determining the total >>>> amount of the payment you need to send to the seller >>> and then send a check >>>> and then say you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping >>> costs if that is what >>>> you agreed to buy from the seller? You have said this >>> in the past about not >>>> having money to pay for something or to pay for the >>> shipping costs. It's >>>> good to ask for help if you are not experienced in >>> sending payments outside >>>> of Canada beyond Paypal. This sounds like you decided >>> to send a check for >>>> the meteorites and then were going to decide about a >>> payment for the >>>> "shipping" as a separate payment or to pay for >>> shipping later on. Is this >>>> why you stated you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping >>> costs after you had >>>> sent your personal Canadian paper check? This doesn't >>> sound right why you >>>> wouldn't determine the full amount due to the seller >>> for the items with >>>> shipping and or insurance and then send one payment >>> and later decide you >>>> couldn't afford the shipping costs they gave you. >>>> >>>> Also=2C you stated you sent a "Paper Check" which=2C as I >>> am thinking is a >>>> "personal check" from your personal Canadian bank >>> account by what you wrote. >>>> I'm confused to why would you think that a personal >>> check from your Canadian >>>> bank account would be "valid" as you say=2C to a dealer >>> in Morocco=2C which I am >>>> sure it is valid in Canada and you have money in your >>> account=2C but most >>>> likely would not be accepted in Morocco or any other >>> country? You don't >>>> often hear of dealers in Asia=2C Africa=2C Europe or for >>> the most part any >>>> dealers in the U.S. or anywhere in North or South >>> America or Australia that >>>> would accept a personal Paper check from a bank in a >>> different country=2C >>>> although it may happen. A check from a Canadian bank >>> account or from a U.S. >>>> bank account or any personal paper check from any >>> other country most likely >>>> won't be accepted unless they verified with their bank >>> first that they could >>>> accept that check. An example would be if there was >>> Citibank in Canada and >>>> then Citibank in the U.S. would accept that check or >>> Citibank in England=2C >>>> etc. .I'm sure if the check was from a bank that had a >>> branch in that >>>> country that it would be accepted=2C but it usually >>> creates a hassle and is >>>> time consuming to stand in line or through an ATM. As >>> several members >>>> mentioned bank wire is the safest and then probably >>> FedEx payment=2C but >>>> sending a paper check or money order isn't a good idea >>> as Gary mentioned. >>>> >>>> I would like to offer a friendly suggestion to help >>> you out. Please make >>>> sure you discuss all the facts and figures with any >>> dealer/collector >>>> anywhere in the world before closing a deal. Remember >>> you are entering a >>>> contract with this dealer=2C whether it is on ebay or >>> through their website or >>>> through correspondence with the dealer. On ebay this >>> is stated as you are >>>> entering a contract so be mindful of this. You need to >>> finalize all costs. >>>> You need to get the full amount that you owe in >>> writing=2C email=2C etc. for the >>>> meteorites and any insurance and shipping and then you >>> need to first discuss >>>> the method of payment to that dealer before you send >>> any payment. I think >>>> your first mistake here was that it sounds as if you >>> didn't determine the >>>> full costs of the meteorites with shipping=2C then you >>> didn't ask the seller >>>> if he or she would accept a "Personal Paper Check from >>> another country. I >>>> think you will have much better luck and increase good >>> relations with >>>> dealers through online sales=2C ebay and through the >>> different meteorite lists >>>> you if you slow down and get the facts before making >>> purchases and payments. >>>> >>>> As you have written on your posts the equivalent of >>> The Tom Hanks character >>>> from the Forest Gump movie=2C "Life is like a box of >>> chocolates." You need >>>> to stop and think that your eyes are bigger than your >>> stomach and stop and >>>> think of what you are wanting to bid on or buy first >>> and how to pay for it. >>>> There is an old saying in America that you may or may >>> not know in Canada. >>>> "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach" which roughly >>> means you saw the >>>> food on the menu and you ordered all that looked good >>> to eat=2C but your >>>> stomach wasn't big enough to eat it all and you became >>> very full before you >>>> could finish the meal. This is the same as the child >>> that fills their plate >>>> up and can't eat it all at home. This also goes along >>> with shopping at the >>>> store when you are hungry and buying too much=2C as in >>> buying more goodies >>>> than you needed. In this case looking at meteorites >>> you want to buy and then >>>> not carefully researching making a payment and then >>> feeling full of >>>> frustration and aggravation at how to make the payment >>> or what road to go >>>> down. I truly hope this helps in the future. >>>> >>>> Have a great day! >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi list=2C >>>> >>>> Please help - I mailed a payment to a Moroccan dealer >>> for a lot of >>>> chondrites via a paper check=2C he got it today=2C but he >>> told me that the banks >>>> over there don't recognize it even though it is >>> completely valid. I can't >>>> afford the shipping costs through FedEx for the lot I >>> want - which will be >>>> over $200 CND... so what other less expensive options >>> do you suggest? >>>> >>>> Thank you in advance >>>> >>>> ----------- >>>> Melanie >>>> IMCA: 2975 >>>> eBay: metmel2775 >>>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 >>>> >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic >>> deals on Windows 7 now >>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D9691818=3D >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=3DPID24727::= T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list =20 _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Friends get your Flickr=2C Yelp=2C and Digg updates when they= e-mail you. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D9691817= From tricottetcoll at live.com Sat Nov 14 05:34:17 2009 From: tricottetcoll at live.com (The Tricottet Collection) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:34:17 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Modeling a trilion-dollar catastrophe - Tunguska scenario Message-ID: Hi list, I sent a link to my report 'Comet and Asteroid Risk: An Analysis of the 1908 Tunguska Event' some time ago, here is a recent article on that in Business Insurance: http://www.businessinsurance.com/article/20091109/BLOGS04/911099987 Best, ArnaudM _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From gmhupe at htn.net Sat Nov 14 04:45:20 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 04:45:20 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Puerto Lapice Hunt Message-ID: <5CB0F8B49D3D44789DF5394590C42DC2@Gregor> Hey Mike & Co. ~ Way cool hunt! Already successful, and a week to go! Man, I do regret not going there with you guys!! The Eucrites, Vino, Spanish language...friends (finding eucrites, oh yah, drinking Vino...), way too cool!!! Hey..., Mel, Jim, Robert and Moritz (and others...), go out and find a larger stones!! :-) Latest News... We are working hard to preserve more of this extraordinary meteorite fall. When there is less than 500 grams known of such a rare fall, every gram preserved for posterity is absolutely crucial. The fact that it is the most beautiful meteorite I have ever seen, terms of crust, flow lines, shine, everything you could ever want in a Eucrite, really motivated us to come back to try again. Moritz and I made the decision to come back barely 10 days ago on the last day I was in Munich. Dima Sadilenko made the trip happen by buying a tiny fragment of Puerto Lapice that I had at the show, I was shocked that it did not sell until then so I said that I could not go to Spain unless someone bought that piece on Sunday and Dima did, so the trip was on. I told Robert Ward and Jim, who took all of a couple seconds each to join the expedition. My wife told me that unpleasant things would happen if she were left out of this one, after hearing 2 years ago about how nice hunting in Spain was. So the group grew and the hunt is on. Ward is hunting far out, trying to expand the strewnfield into the mountains, as it surely must go. When we showed up at the bar and hotel here, everyone knew us, and the bartender even told me how much he liked the Puerto Lapice photos on my website. He said that virtually no one had been here except just after we left. The landowner welcomed us back, said that one of his workers had found a small stone last year and sold it in Spain, but to his knowledge nothing else found. We plan to change that (already did actually). I always regretted not rushing back to Spain last time, and working this for months, but that was the time of Cali and Carancas, which fell as I was sitting in this very same chair here in Puerto Lapice. We will continue the hunt for another 5 days, then gotta go home and get ready for the Tokyo show. Anyway, Hi Michael, Thank you for posting the Pic-O-Day. Congratulations to Mike Farmer for his great eucrite find in Spain! Now I wish I would have went with them when invited. Oh well, next time! Keep up the good work, that terrain looks pretty rough and difficult to spot small black stones between the rocks and shadows. I hope the rest of your team finds some eucrites as well!! Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 3:24 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 13,2009 > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/puerto_lapice_spain_meteorite_hunt.html > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault From dave at fallingrocks.com Sat Nov 14 08:17:18 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:17:18 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Puerto Lapice Hunt In-Reply-To: <5CB0F8B49D3D44789DF5394590C42DC2@Gregor> References: <5CB0F8B49D3D44789DF5394590C42DC2@Gregor> Message-ID: <> ...as would be expected...love it...good luck RW! Dave www.fallingrocks.com -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Greg Hupe Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 4:45 AM To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Puerto Lapice Hunt Hey Mike & Co. ~ Way cool hunt! Already successful, and a week to go! Man, I do regret not going there with you guys!! The Eucrites, Vino, Spanish language...friends (finding eucrites, oh yah, drinking Vino...), way too cool!!! Hey..., Mel, Jim, Robert and Moritz (and others...), go out and find a larger stones!! :-) Latest News... We are working hard to preserve more of this extraordinary meteorite fall. When there is less than 500 grams known of such a rare fall, every gram preserved for posterity is absolutely crucial. The fact that it is the most beautiful meteorite I have ever seen, terms of crust, flow lines, shine, everything you could ever want in a Eucrite, really motivated us to come back to try again. Moritz and I made the decision to come back barely 10 days ago on the last day I was in Munich. Dima Sadilenko made the trip happen by buying a tiny fragment of Puerto Lapice that I had at the show, I was shocked that it did not sell until then so I said that I could not go to Spain unless someone bought that piece on Sunday and Dima did, so the trip was on. I told Robert Ward and Jim, who took all of a couple seconds each to join the expedition. My wife told me that unpleasant things would happen if she were left out of this one, after hearing 2 years ago about how nice hunting in Spain was. So the group grew and the hunt is on. Ward is hunting far out, trying to expand the strewnfield into the mountains, as it surely must go. When we showed up at the bar and hotel here, everyone knew us, and the bartender even told me how much he liked the Puerto Lapice photos on my website. He said that virtually no one had been here except just after we left. The landowner welcomed us back, said that one of his workers had found a small stone last year and sold it in Spain, but to his knowledge nothing else found. We plan to change that (already did actually). I always regretted not rushing back to Spain last time, and working this for months, but that was the time of Cali and Carancas, which fell as I was sitting in this very same chair here in Puerto Lapice. We will continue the hunt for another 5 days, then gotta go home and get ready for the Tokyo show. Anyway, Hi Michael, Thank you for posting the Pic-O-Day. Congratulations to Mike Farmer for his great eucrite find in Spain! Now I wish I would have went with them when invited. Oh well, next time! Keep up the good work, that terrain looks pretty rough and difficult to spot small black stones between the rocks and shadows. I hope the rest of your team finds some eucrites as well!! Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 3:24 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 13,2009 > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/puerto_lapice_spain_meteorite_hunt.html > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 14 10:04:44 2009 From: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com (Carl 's) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 07:04:44 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Beating a dead horse to Morocco Message-ID: Hello Howard, All, You are absolutely correct. We newbies should not ask knowledgeable veterans such basic questions. We must do the legwork ourselves but never reveal how we do it to achieve our goals if someone asks. Speaking for myself I would like to thank you, Howard, for all the wonderful and thought provoking topics about meteorites you have provided in the past. Did I mention you would be a great teacher? For those not familiar with Howard's input, please type "Howard Steffic" in the search window. Howard, you asked if anyone actually found a meteorite? Please start a thread about meteorites we can all talk seriously about. You know you can't rely on newbies to do anything right. Thanks for setting us, newbies, straight! Carl Howard wrote: >...I laugh at how the "newbies" expect the veterans with the battle scars to tell them exacty how to .... Hunt Meteorites or Sell on Ebay or send money overseas. Get off the couch and do your own legwork. Now lets give this thread a proper burrial and get back to meteorites. Didn't someone actually find something (like a meteorite not an alien) that we can talk about?... _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 From carothersdl at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 10:42:15 2009 From: carothersdl at gmail.com (dave carothers) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:42:15 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD HORSEIs toMorocco References: , <609737.82751.qm@web45402.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Howard, Your comment is moronic. This group is as much about posting information to assist "newbies" as anything else. You should know better. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Steffic" To: Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 2:17 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD HORSEIs toMorocco > > Is anyone else getting tired of this moronic discussion? > > I laugh at how the "newbies" expect the veterans with the battle scars to > tell them exacty how to .... Hunt Meteorites or Sell on Ebay or send > money overseas. Get off the couch and do your own legwork. > > Now lets give this thread a proper burrial and get back to meteorites. > Didn't someone actually find something (like a meteorite not an alien) > that we can talk about? > > Howard Steffic > > >> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:54:25 -0800 >> From: abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com >> To: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; >> searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada >> toMorocco >> >> Hello Brian and all, >> MoneyGram is available in Morocco, and Abdellah is a good person five >> stars in honesty and trust. >> My best >> Aziz >> >> --- On Fri, 11/13/09, Brian Cox wrote: >> >>> From: Brian Cox >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada >>> toMorocco >>> To: "Melanie Matthews" , >>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 2:39 PM >>> Hi Melanie, >>> >>> I'm glad you are on top of this and that you are keeping in >>> touch with the seller. I'm glad he's mailing back your >>> postal money order. Hopefully the Moneyram will work out and >>> he'll accept it as he said and you'll get your new >>> meteorites. >>> >>> I wish you all the best and hope that you receive some >>> really great and rare meteorites in the group. >>> >>> Have a great day! >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melanie Matthews" >>> >>> To: "Brian Cox" ; >>> >>> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:15 AM >>> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments >>> from Canada toMorocco >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Brian, listers. >>> Actually it was a postal money order that I >>> mailed out to him (Mr. Abdellah Afiniss), and yes it >>> included the cost >>> of the stones plus the shipping costs. I asked him to mail >>> it back to >>> me and he said he did. >>> >>> Once I get the slip back I'm going to >>> get back the money I put onto it and re-send the payment to >>> him - >>> probably via Moneygram (which he told me he accepts). >>> >>> >>> >>> At first offered me a lot total of 8.5 kgs of chondrites >>> (all >>> unclassified),, knowing full well I couldn't afford all >>> that I circled >>> some stones in Paint.net (free image editing program >>> similar to >>> MSPaint) that I wanted in the photographs, emailed back to >>> him and >>> kindly asked him to send me images of each meteorite I >>> picked sitting >>> on the scale to show their weights... I then worked out the >>> prices >>> until I made the final decition on buying five rocks >>> together weighing >>> 837 grams.. >>> >>> >>> >>> As I said he has been very cooperative, and I thanks him >>> and I thank all here on the list for their >>> input/suggestions! >>> >>> ----------- >>> Melanie >>> IMCA: 2975 >>> eBay: metmel2775 >>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 >>> >>> Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you >>> never know what you're gonna get! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------- >>>> From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net >>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:56:13 -0600 >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send >>> payments from Canada to Morocco >>>> >>>> Hello Melanie and list, >>>> >>>> In regards to your question of sending payments to >>> Morocco, I have to ask a >>>> couple of questions and others also mentioned they >>> weren't clear on your >>>> question since you didn't seem to be including >>> shipping costs. I'd like to >>>> help you out and I mean this in the most thoughtful >>> and kindest way >>>> possible, so please don't take it negatively or have >>> any anger towards me. >>>> Make sure you include shipping costs when you were >>> determining the total >>>> amount of the payment you need to send to the seller >>> and then send a check >>>> and then say you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping >>> costs if that is what >>>> you agreed to buy from the seller? You have said this >>> in the past about not >>>> having money to pay for something or to pay for the >>> shipping costs. It's >>>> good to ask for help if you are not experienced in >>> sending payments outside >>>> of Canada beyond Paypal. This sounds like you decided >>> to send a check for >>>> the meteorites and then were going to decide about a >>> payment for the >>>> "shipping" as a separate payment or to pay for >>> shipping later on. Is this >>>> why you stated you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping >>> costs after you had >>>> sent your personal Canadian paper check? This doesn't >>> sound right why you >>>> wouldn't determine the full amount due to the seller >>> for the items with >>>> shipping and or insurance and then send one payment >>> and later decide you >>>> couldn't afford the shipping costs they gave you. >>>> >>>> Also, you stated you sent a "Paper Check" which, as I >>> am thinking is a >>>> "personal check" from your personal Canadian bank >>> account by what you wrote. >>>> I'm confused to why would you think that a personal >>> check from your Canadian >>>> bank account would be "valid" as you say, to a dealer >>> in Morocco, which I am >>>> sure it is valid in Canada and you have money in your >>> account, but most >>>> likely would not be accepted in Morocco or any other >>> country? You don't >>>> often hear of dealers in Asia, Africa, Europe or for >>> the most part any >>>> dealers in the U.S. or anywhere in North or South >>> America or Australia that >>>> would accept a personal Paper check from a bank in a >>> different country, >>>> although it may happen. A check from a Canadian bank >>> account or from a U.S. >>>> bank account or any personal paper check from any >>> other country most likely >>>> won't be accepted unless they verified with their bank >>> first that they could >>>> accept that check. An example would be if there was >>> Citibank in Canada and >>>> then Citibank in the U.S. would accept that check or >>> Citibank in England, >>>> etc. .I'm sure if the check was from a bank that had a >>> branch in that >>>> country that it would be accepted, but it usually >>> creates a hassle and is >>>> time consuming to stand in line or through an ATM. As >>> several members >>>> mentioned bank wire is the safest and then probably >>> FedEx payment, but >>>> sending a paper check or money order isn't a good idea >>> as Gary mentioned. >>>> >>>> I would like to offer a friendly suggestion to help >>> you out. Please make >>>> sure you discuss all the facts and figures with any >>> dealer/collector >>>> anywhere in the world before closing a deal. Remember >>> you are entering a >>>> contract with this dealer, whether it is on ebay or >>> through their website or >>>> through correspondence with the dealer. On ebay this >>> is stated as you are >>>> entering a contract so be mindful of this. You need to >>> finalize all costs. >>>> You need to get the full amount that you owe in >>> writing, email, etc. for the >>>> meteorites and any insurance and shipping and then you >>> need to first discuss >>>> the method of payment to that dealer before you send >>> any payment. I think >>>> your first mistake here was that it sounds as if you >>> didn't determine the >>>> full costs of the meteorites with shipping, then you >>> didn't ask the seller >>>> if he or she would accept a "Personal Paper Check from >>> another country. I >>>> think you will have much better luck and increase good >>> relations with >>>> dealers through online sales, ebay and through the >>> different meteorite lists >>>> you if you slow down and get the facts before making >>> purchases and payments. >>>> >>>> As you have written on your posts the equivalent of >>> The Tom Hanks character >>>> from the Forest Gump movie, "Life is like a box of >>> chocolates." You need >>>> to stop and think that your eyes are bigger than your >>> stomach and stop and >>>> think of what you are wanting to bid on or buy first >>> and how to pay for it. >>>> There is an old saying in America that you may or may >>> not know in Canada. >>>> "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach" which roughly >>> means you saw the >>>> food on the menu and you ordered all that looked good >>> to eat, but your >>>> stomach wasn't big enough to eat it all and you became >>> very full before you >>>> could finish the meal. This is the same as the child >>> that fills their plate >>>> up and can't eat it all at home. This also goes along >>> with shopping at the >>>> store when you are hungry and buying too much, as in >>> buying more goodies >>>> than you needed. In this case looking at meteorites >>> you want to buy and then >>>> not carefully researching making a payment and then >>> feeling full of >>>> frustration and aggravation at how to make the payment >>> or what road to go >>>> down. I truly hope this helps in the future. >>>> >>>> Have a great day! >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi list, >>>> >>>> Please help - I mailed a payment to a Moroccan dealer >>> for a lot of >>>> chondrites via a paper check, he got it today, but he >>> told me that the banks >>>> over there don't recognize it even though it is >>> completely valid. I can't >>>> afford the shipping costs through FedEx for the lot I >>> want - which will be >>>> over $200 CND... so what other less expensive options >>> do you suggest? >>>> >>>> Thank you in advance >>>> >>>> ----------- >>>> Melanie >>>> IMCA: 2975 >>>> eBay: metmel2775 >>>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 >>>> >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic >>> deals on Windows 7 now >>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818= >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From rocksfromspace at yahoo.com Sat Nov 14 10:45:50 2009 From: rocksfromspace at yahoo.com (Michael Johnson) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 07:45:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 14, 2009 Message-ID: <235314.2546.qm@web113008.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_14_2009.html From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Sat Nov 14 12:18:30 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 12:18:30 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Latvia Meteorite Hoax Message-ID: <20091114121830.WNB2F.179264.imail@eastrmwml35> Dear Friends, Below are a collection of articles about the Latvia Meteorite Hoax. Geologist: Mazsalaca "meteorite" in Latvia is man-made, Baltic Course, Oct. 27, 2009 http://www.baltic-course.com/eng/baltic_news/?doc=4078 Mobile Firm Admits 'Meteor' Was A PR Stunt Sky News, Oct. 27, 2009, http://tiny.cc/BalticCrater1 http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Latvia-Meteorite-Was-PR-Stunt-Admits-Mobile-Phone-Firm-Tele2/Article/200910415420502 Mobile firm behind meteorite hoax The Press Association, Oct. 27, 2009, http://tiny.cc/BalticCrater2 http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gBHm5t2C43pU5r_fIsZ38JuSo6qQ The hole was too tidy to have been caused by a meteorite, he said, BBC News, Oct. 26, 2009? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8326483.stm 'Meteor' blast hoax revealed, by Harry Haydon, The Sun, http://tiny.cc/BalticCrater3 http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2699586/Meteor-blast-hoax-revealed.html Tele2 planned meteorite hoax with media agency Inspired, The Baltic Course, Oct. 27, 2009 http://www.baltic-course.com/eng/markets_and_companies/?doc=19841 Yours, Paul H. From marsrox at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 12:28:08 2009 From: marsrox at gmail.com (Kevin Kichinka) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:28:08 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage Message-ID: <5bb98d570911140928o3868139dy2592a85ad203f31b@mail.gmail.com> I want to bring two iron meteorites, one a Campo of 10 kgs., the other a Gibeon of 4 kgs., to Costa Rica from Miami on American Airlines. I would never check them and take a chance they might disappear. I would carry them on the plane in a small suitcase. Are these prohibited items? How do dealers flying around the planet to shows ship their rocks? Thanks for any and all that have experience with this and respond. Kevin Kichinka From bencubbin at hotmail.com Sat Nov 14 12:35:59 2009 From: bencubbin at hotmail.com (Howard Steffic) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:35:59 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD HORSEIs toMorocco In-Reply-To: References: , <609737.82751.qm@web45402.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> , Message-ID: My point is, and perhaps you can explain why......... Any meteorite dealer or professional hunter should teach anybody how be a competitor? Do you think McDonalds would teach you how to run a restaurant? The logic that is used by some of these newbies is what is moronic. I don't hunt or sell but if I did, I wouldn't expect anyone to teach me how to be a competitor. Respectfully yours..... Howard Steffic > From: carothersdl at gmail.com > To: bencubbin at hotmail.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD HORSEIs toMorocco > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:42:15 -0500 > > Howard, > > Your comment is moronic. This group is as much about posting information to > assist "newbies" as anything else. You should know better. > > Dave > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Howard Steffic" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 2:17 AM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD > HORSEIs toMorocco > > >> >> Is anyone else getting tired of this moronic discussion? >> >> I laugh at how the "newbies" expect the veterans with the battle scars to >> tell them exacty how to .... Hunt Meteorites or Sell on Ebay or send >> money overseas. Get off the couch and do your own legwork. >> >> Now lets give this thread a proper burrial and get back to meteorites. >> Didn't someone actually find something (like a meteorite not an alien) >> that we can talk about? >> >> Howard Steffic >> >> >>> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:54:25 -0800 >>> From: abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com >>> To: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; >>> searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada >>> toMorocco >>> >>> Hello Brian and all, >>> MoneyGram is available in Morocco, and Abdellah is a good person five >>> stars in honesty and trust. >>> My best >>> Aziz >>> >>> --- On Fri, 11/13/09, Brian Cox wrote: >>> >>>> From: Brian Cox >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada >>>> toMorocco >>>> To: "Melanie Matthews" , >>>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 2:39 PM >>>> Hi Melanie, >>>> >>>> I'm glad you are on top of this and that you are keeping in >>>> touch with the seller. I'm glad he's mailing back your >>>> postal money order. Hopefully the Moneyram will work out and >>>> he'll accept it as he said and you'll get your new >>>> meteorites. >>>> >>>> I wish you all the best and hope that you receive some >>>> really great and rare meteorites in the group. >>>> >>>> Have a great day! >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melanie Matthews" >>>> >>>> To: "Brian Cox" ; >>>> >>>> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:15 AM >>>> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments >>>> from Canada toMorocco >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Brian, listers. >>>> Actually it was a postal money order that I >>>> mailed out to him (Mr. Abdellah Afiniss), and yes it >>>> included the cost >>>> of the stones plus the shipping costs. I asked him to mail >>>> it back to >>>> me and he said he did. >>>> >>>> Once I get the slip back I'm going to >>>> get back the money I put onto it and re-send the payment to >>>> him - >>>> probably via Moneygram (which he told me he accepts). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> At first offered me a lot total of 8.5 kgs of chondrites >>>> (all >>>> unclassified),, knowing full well I couldn't afford all >>>> that I circled >>>> some stones in Paint.net (free image editing program >>>> similar to >>>> MSPaint) that I wanted in the photographs, emailed back to >>>> him and >>>> kindly asked him to send me images of each meteorite I >>>> picked sitting >>>> on the scale to show their weights... I then worked out the >>>> prices >>>> until I made the final decition on buying five rocks >>>> together weighing >>>> 837 grams.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As I said he has been very cooperative, and I thanks him >>>> and I thank all here on the list for their >>>> input/suggestions! >>>> >>>> ----------- >>>> Melanie >>>> IMCA: 2975 >>>> eBay: metmel2775 >>>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 >>>> >>>> Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you >>>> never know what you're gonna get! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------- >>>>> From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net >>>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:56:13 -0600 >>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send >>>> payments from Canada to Morocco >>>>> >>>>> Hello Melanie and list, >>>>> >>>>> In regards to your question of sending payments to >>>> Morocco, I have to ask a >>>>> couple of questions and others also mentioned they >>>> weren't clear on your >>>>> question since you didn't seem to be including >>>> shipping costs. I'd like to >>>>> help you out and I mean this in the most thoughtful >>>> and kindest way >>>>> possible, so please don't take it negatively or have >>>> any anger towards me. >>>>> Make sure you include shipping costs when you were >>>> determining the total >>>>> amount of the payment you need to send to the seller >>>> and then send a check >>>>> and then say you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping >>>> costs if that is what >>>>> you agreed to buy from the seller? You have said this >>>> in the past about not >>>>> having money to pay for something or to pay for the >>>> shipping costs. It's >>>>> good to ask for help if you are not experienced in >>>> sending payments outside >>>>> of Canada beyond Paypal. This sounds like you decided >>>> to send a check for >>>>> the meteorites and then were going to decide about a >>>> payment for the >>>>> "shipping" as a separate payment or to pay for >>>> shipping later on. Is this >>>>> why you stated you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping >>>> costs after you had >>>>> sent your personal Canadian paper check? This doesn't >>>> sound right why you >>>>> wouldn't determine the full amount due to the seller >>>> for the items with >>>>> shipping and or insurance and then send one payment >>>> and later decide you >>>>> couldn't afford the shipping costs they gave you. >>>>> >>>>> Also, you stated you sent a "Paper Check" which, as I >>>> am thinking is a >>>>> "personal check" from your personal Canadian bank >>>> account by what you wrote. >>>>> I'm confused to why would you think that a personal >>>> check from your Canadian >>>>> bank account would be "valid" as you say, to a dealer >>>> in Morocco, which I am >>>>> sure it is valid in Canada and you have money in your >>>> account, but most >>>>> likely would not be accepted in Morocco or any other >>>> country? You don't >>>>> often hear of dealers in Asia, Africa, Europe or for >>>> the most part any >>>>> dealers in the U.S. or anywhere in North or South >>>> America or Australia that >>>>> would accept a personal Paper check from a bank in a >>>> different country, >>>>> although it may happen. A check from a Canadian bank >>>> account or from a U.S. >>>>> bank account or any personal paper check from any >>>> other country most likely >>>>> won't be accepted unless they verified with their bank >>>> first that they could >>>>> accept that check. An example would be if there was >>>> Citibank in Canada and >>>>> then Citibank in the U.S. would accept that check or >>>> Citibank in England, >>>>> etc. .I'm sure if the check was from a bank that had a >>>> branch in that >>>>> country that it would be accepted, but it usually >>>> creates a hassle and is >>>>> time consuming to stand in line or through an ATM. As >>>> several members >>>>> mentioned bank wire is the safest and then probably >>>> FedEx payment, but >>>>> sending a paper check or money order isn't a good idea >>>> as Gary mentioned. >>>>> >>>>> I would like to offer a friendly suggestion to help >>>> you out. Please make >>>>> sure you discuss all the facts and figures with any >>>> dealer/collector >>>>> anywhere in the world before closing a deal. Remember >>>> you are entering a >>>>> contract with this dealer, whether it is on ebay or >>>> through their website or >>>>> through correspondence with the dealer. On ebay this >>>> is stated as you are >>>>> entering a contract so be mindful of this. You need to >>>> finalize all costs. >>>>> You need to get the full amount that you owe in >>>> writing, email, etc. for the >>>>> meteorites and any insurance and shipping and then you >>>> need to first discuss >>>>> the method of payment to that dealer before you send >>>> any payment. I think >>>>> your first mistake here was that it sounds as if you >>>> didn't determine the >>>>> full costs of the meteorites with shipping, then you >>>> didn't ask the seller >>>>> if he or she would accept a "Personal Paper Check from >>>> another country. I >>>>> think you will have much better luck and increase good >>>> relations with >>>>> dealers through online sales, ebay and through the >>>> different meteorite lists >>>>> you if you slow down and get the facts before making >>>> purchases and payments. >>>>> >>>>> As you have written on your posts the equivalent of >>>> The Tom Hanks character >>>>> from the Forest Gump movie, "Life is like a box of >>>> chocolates." You need >>>>> to stop and think that your eyes are bigger than your >>>> stomach and stop and >>>>> think of what you are wanting to bid on or buy first >>>> and how to pay for it. >>>>> There is an old saying in America that you may or may >>>> not know in Canada. >>>>> "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach" which roughly >>>> means you saw the >>>>> food on the menu and you ordered all that looked good >>>> to eat, but your >>>>> stomach wasn't big enough to eat it all and you became >>>> very full before you >>>>> could finish the meal. This is the same as the child >>>> that fills their plate >>>>> up and can't eat it all at home. This also goes along >>>> with shopping at the >>>>> store when you are hungry and buying too much, as in >>>> buying more goodies >>>>> than you needed. In this case looking at meteorites >>>> you want to buy and then >>>>> not carefully researching making a payment and then >>>> feeling full of >>>>> frustration and aggravation at how to make the payment >>>> or what road to go >>>>> down. I truly hope this helps in the future. >>>>> >>>>> Have a great day! >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi list, >>>>> >>>>> Please help - I mailed a payment to a Moroccan dealer >>>> for a lot of >>>>> chondrites via a paper check, he got it today, but he >>>> told me that the banks >>>>> over there don't recognize it even though it is >>>> completely valid. I can't >>>>> afford the shipping costs through FedEx for the lot I >>>> want - which will be >>>>> over $200 CND... so what other less expensive options >>>> do you suggest? >>>>> >>>>> Thank you in advance >>>>> >>>>> ----------- >>>>> Melanie >>>>> IMCA: 2975 >>>>> eBay: metmel2775 >>>>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________________________ >>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic >>>> deals on Windows 7 now >>>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818= >>>> >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. >> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From raremeteorites at yahoo.com Sat Nov 14 12:42:25 2009 From: raremeteorites at yahoo.com (Adam Hupe) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:42:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage In-Reply-To: <5bb98d570911140928o3868139dy2592a85ad203f31b@mail.gmail.com> References: <5bb98d570911140928o3868139dy2592a85ad203f31b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <558031.97079.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Kevin, you should know better, You will have to check them due to carry-on weight limitations, especially on international flights. An iron meteorite could be used to bash down the cockpit door. They would not even allow me to carry on the Garza stone which weighs less than either of the two irons you suggested. Of course, you could always try if you want to get hassled. Best of Luck, Adam ----- Original Message ---- From: Kevin Kichinka To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 9:28:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage I want to bring two iron meteorites, one a Campo of 10 kgs., the other a Gibeon of 4 kgs., to Costa Rica from Miami on American Airlines. I would never check them and take a chance they might disappear. I would carry them on the plane in a small suitcase. Are these prohibited items? How do dealers flying around the planet to shows ship their rocks? Thanks for any and all that have experience with this and respond. Kevin Kichinka ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From carothersdl at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 13:20:23 2009 From: carothersdl at gmail.com (dave carothers) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:20:23 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD HORSEIs toMorocco References: , <609737.82751.qm@web45402.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: Howard, Respectfully... Reference your comment "I laugh at how the "newbies" expect the veterans with the battle scars to tell them exacty how to .... Hunt Meteorites or Sell on Ebay or send money overseas. Get off the couch and do your own legwork." Why should it bother YOU that someone should ask for for advice or assistance? Go back through the history of this list and you will see literally thousands of instances where dealers and professional hunters have freely offered advice and assistance to "newbies". You don't think people stay on this list for the ads, do you? You don't think people stay on this list for the disputes, cyber fist fights, etc, do you? I personally stay on this list (and I'm sure other do to) so we CAN ask for advice and assistance from the pros. I won't answer as to the motives or rationale of why dealers and professional hunters freely offer advice and assistance to "newbies", but suffice to say that I (and I know hundreds, maybe thousands of others over the history of this list) appreciate ALL the assistance offered by ANYONE on this list. Regards, Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Steffic" To: Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 12:35 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD HORSEIs toMorocco > > My point is, and perhaps you can explain why......... Any meteorite > dealer or professional hunter should teach anybody how be a competitor? > > Do you think McDonalds would teach you how to run a restaurant? > > The logic that is used by some of these newbies is what is moronic. I > don't hunt or sell but if I did, I wouldn't expect anyone to teach me how > to be a competitor. > > Respectfully yours..... > > Howard Steffic > > >> From: carothersdl at gmail.com >> To: bencubbin at hotmail.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD >> HORSEIs toMorocco >> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:42:15 -0500 >> >> Howard, >> >> Your comment is moronic. This group is as much about posting information >> to >> assist "newbies" as anything else. You should know better. >> >> Dave >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Howard Steffic" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 2:17 AM >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD >> HORSEIs toMorocco >> >> >>> >>> Is anyone else getting tired of this moronic discussion? >>> >>> I laugh at how the "newbies" expect the veterans with the battle scars >>> to >>> tell them exacty how to .... Hunt Meteorites or Sell on Ebay or send >>> money overseas. Get off the couch and do your own legwork. >>> >>> Now lets give this thread a proper burrial and get back to meteorites. >>> Didn't someone actually find something (like a meteorite not an alien) >>> that we can talk about? >>> >>> Howard Steffic >>> >>> >>>> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:54:25 -0800 >>>> From: abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com >>>> To: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; >>>> searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada >>>> toMorocco >>>> >>>> Hello Brian and all, >>>> MoneyGram is available in Morocco, and Abdellah is a good person five >>>> stars in honesty and trust. >>>> My best >>>> Aziz >>>> >>>> --- On Fri, 11/13/09, Brian Cox wrote: >>>> >>>>> From: Brian Cox >>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada >>>>> toMorocco >>>>> To: "Melanie Matthews" , >>>>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>> Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 2:39 PM >>>>> Hi Melanie, >>>>> >>>>> I'm glad you are on top of this and that you are keeping in >>>>> touch with the seller. I'm glad he's mailing back your >>>>> postal money order. Hopefully the Moneyram will work out and >>>>> he'll accept it as he said and you'll get your new >>>>> meteorites. >>>>> >>>>> I wish you all the best and hope that you receive some >>>>> really great and rare meteorites in the group. >>>>> >>>>> Have a great day! >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melanie Matthews" >>>>> >>>>> To: "Brian Cox" ; >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:15 AM >>>>> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments >>>>> from Canada toMorocco >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Brian, listers. >>>>> Actually it was a postal money order that I >>>>> mailed out to him (Mr. Abdellah Afiniss), and yes it >>>>> included the cost >>>>> of the stones plus the shipping costs. I asked him to mail >>>>> it back to >>>>> me and he said he did. >>>>> >>>>> Once I get the slip back I'm going to >>>>> get back the money I put onto it and re-send the payment to >>>>> him - >>>>> probably via Moneygram (which he told me he accepts). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At first offered me a lot total of 8.5 kgs of chondrites >>>>> (all >>>>> unclassified),, knowing full well I couldn't afford all >>>>> that I circled >>>>> some stones in Paint.net (free image editing program >>>>> similar to >>>>> MSPaint) that I wanted in the photographs, emailed back to >>>>> him and >>>>> kindly asked him to send me images of each meteorite I >>>>> picked sitting >>>>> on the scale to show their weights... I then worked out the >>>>> prices >>>>> until I made the final decition on buying five rocks >>>>> together weighing >>>>> 837 grams.. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As I said he has been very cooperative, and I thanks him >>>>> and I thank all here on the list for their >>>>> input/suggestions! >>>>> >>>>> ----------- >>>>> Melanie >>>>> IMCA: 2975 >>>>> eBay: metmel2775 >>>>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 >>>>> >>>>> Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you >>>>> never know what you're gonna get! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------- >>>>>> From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net >>>>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:56:13 -0600 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send >>>>> payments from Canada to Morocco >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello Melanie and list, >>>>>> >>>>>> In regards to your question of sending payments to >>>>> Morocco, I have to ask a >>>>>> couple of questions and others also mentioned they >>>>> weren't clear on your >>>>>> question since you didn't seem to be including >>>>> shipping costs. I'd like to >>>>>> help you out and I mean this in the most thoughtful >>>>> and kindest way >>>>>> possible, so please don't take it negatively or have >>>>> any anger towards me. >>>>>> Make sure you include shipping costs when you were >>>>> determining the total >>>>>> amount of the payment you need to send to the seller >>>>> and then send a check >>>>>> and then say you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping >>>>> costs if that is what >>>>>> you agreed to buy from the seller? You have said this >>>>> in the past about not >>>>>> having money to pay for something or to pay for the >>>>> shipping costs. It's >>>>>> good to ask for help if you are not experienced in >>>>> sending payments outside >>>>>> of Canada beyond Paypal. This sounds like you decided >>>>> to send a check for >>>>>> the meteorites and then were going to decide about a >>>>> payment for the >>>>>> "shipping" as a separate payment or to pay for >>>>> shipping later on. Is this >>>>>> why you stated you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping >>>>> costs after you had >>>>>> sent your personal Canadian paper check? This doesn't >>>>> sound right why you >>>>>> wouldn't determine the full amount due to the seller >>>>> for the items with >>>>>> shipping and or insurance and then send one payment >>>>> and later decide you >>>>>> couldn't afford the shipping costs they gave you. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, you stated you sent a "Paper Check" which, as I >>>>> am thinking is a >>>>>> "personal check" from your personal Canadian bank >>>>> account by what you wrote. >>>>>> I'm confused to why would you think that a personal >>>>> check from your Canadian >>>>>> bank account would be "valid" as you say, to a dealer >>>>> in Morocco, which I am >>>>>> sure it is valid in Canada and you have money in your >>>>> account, but most >>>>>> likely would not be accepted in Morocco or any other >>>>> country? You don't >>>>>> often hear of dealers in Asia, Africa, Europe or for >>>>> the most part any >>>>>> dealers in the U.S. or anywhere in North or South >>>>> America or Australia that >>>>>> would accept a personal Paper check from a bank in a >>>>> different country, >>>>>> although it may happen. A check from a Canadian bank >>>>> account or from a U.S. >>>>>> bank account or any personal paper check from any >>>>> other country most likely >>>>>> won't be accepted unless they verified with their bank >>>>> first that they could >>>>>> accept that check. An example would be if there was >>>>> Citibank in Canada and >>>>>> then Citibank in the U.S. would accept that check or >>>>> Citibank in England, >>>>>> etc. .I'm sure if the check was from a bank that had a >>>>> branch in that >>>>>> country that it would be accepted, but it usually >>>>> creates a hassle and is >>>>>> time consuming to stand in line or through an ATM. As >>>>> several members >>>>>> mentioned bank wire is the safest and then probably >>>>> FedEx payment, but >>>>>> sending a paper check or money order isn't a good idea >>>>> as Gary mentioned. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would like to offer a friendly suggestion to help >>>>> you out. Please make >>>>>> sure you discuss all the facts and figures with any >>>>> dealer/collector >>>>>> anywhere in the world before closing a deal. Remember >>>>> you are entering a >>>>>> contract with this dealer, whether it is on ebay or >>>>> through their website or >>>>>> through correspondence with the dealer. On ebay this >>>>> is stated as you are >>>>>> entering a contract so be mindful of this. You need to >>>>> finalize all costs. >>>>>> You need to get the full amount that you owe in >>>>> writing, email, etc. for the >>>>>> meteorites and any insurance and shipping and then you >>>>> need to first discuss >>>>>> the method of payment to that dealer before you send >>>>> any payment. I think >>>>>> your first mistake here was that it sounds as if you >>>>> didn't determine the >>>>>> full costs of the meteorites with shipping, then you >>>>> didn't ask the seller >>>>>> if he or she would accept a "Personal Paper Check from >>>>> another country. I >>>>>> think you will have much better luck and increase good >>>>> relations with >>>>>> dealers through online sales, ebay and through the >>>>> different meteorite lists >>>>>> you if you slow down and get the facts before making >>>>> purchases and payments. >>>>>> >>>>>> As you have written on your posts the equivalent of >>>>> The Tom Hanks character >>>>>> from the Forest Gump movie, "Life is like a box of >>>>> chocolates." You need >>>>>> to stop and think that your eyes are bigger than your >>>>> stomach and stop and >>>>>> think of what you are wanting to bid on or buy first >>>>> and how to pay for it. >>>>>> There is an old saying in America that you may or may >>>>> not know in Canada. >>>>>> "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach" which roughly >>>>> means you saw the >>>>>> food on the menu and you ordered all that looked good >>>>> to eat, but your >>>>>> stomach wasn't big enough to eat it all and you became >>>>> very full before you >>>>>> could finish the meal. This is the same as the child >>>>> that fills their plate >>>>>> up and can't eat it all at home. This also goes along >>>>> with shopping at the >>>>>> store when you are hungry and buying too much, as in >>>>> buying more goodies >>>>>> than you needed. In this case looking at meteorites >>>>> you want to buy and then >>>>>> not carefully researching making a payment and then >>>>> feeling full of >>>>>> frustration and aggravation at how to make the payment >>>>> or what road to go >>>>>> down. I truly hope this helps in the future. >>>>>> >>>>>> Have a great day! >>>>>> >>>>>> Brian >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi list, >>>>>> >>>>>> Please help - I mailed a payment to a Moroccan dealer >>>>> for a lot of >>>>>> chondrites via a paper check, he got it today, but he >>>>> told me that the banks >>>>>> over there don't recognize it even though it is >>>>> completely valid. I can't >>>>>> afford the shipping costs through FedEx for the lot I >>>>> want - which will be >>>>>> over $200 CND... so what other less expensive options >>>>> do you suggest? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you in advance >>>>>> >>>>>> ----------- >>>>>> Melanie >>>>>> IMCA: 2975 >>>>>> eBay: metmel2775 >>>>>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 >>>>>> >>>>>> ______________________________________________ >>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>> Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic >>>>> deals on Windows 7 now >>>>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818= >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________________________ >>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. >>> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > _________________________________________________________________ > Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. > http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From carothersdl at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 13:22:26 2009 From: carothersdl at gmail.com (dave carothers) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:22:26 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage References: <5bb98d570911140928o3868139dy2592a85ad203f31b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1552023245AE4BCB81443C217E0694B2@your291etg47cr> Kevin, Have you called the airline or TSA and asked their advice? Regards, Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Kichinka" To: Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 12:28 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage >I want to bring two iron meteorites, one a Campo of 10 kgs., the other > a Gibeon of 4 kgs., to Costa Rica from Miami on American Airlines. I > would never check them and take a chance they might disappear. I would > carry them on the plane in a small suitcase. > > > Are these prohibited items? How do dealers flying around the planet to > shows ship their rocks? > > > Thanks for any and all that have experience with this and respond. > > > Kevin Kichinka > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From darryl at dof3.com Sat Nov 14 12:56:38 2009 From: darryl at dof3.com (Darryl Pitt) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 12:56:38 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage In-Reply-To: <5bb98d570911140928o3868139dy2592a85ad203f31b@mail.gmail.com> References: <5bb98d570911140928o3868139dy2592a85ad203f31b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0B5B5A67-9224-4E4F-B444-4451CD88A8D9@dof3.com> in my experience, it's at the discretion of the TSA supervisor on duty. good luck. best/ d, On Nov 14, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Kevin Kichinka wrote: > I want to bring two iron meteorites, one a Campo of 10 kgs., the other > a Gibeon of 4 kgs., to Costa Rica from Miami on American Airlines. I > would never check them and take a chance they might disappear. I would > carry them on the plane in a small suitcase. > > > Are these prohibited items? How do dealers flying around the planet to > shows ship their rocks? > > > Thanks for any and all that have experience with this and respond. > > > Kevin Kichinka > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From meteoritefinder at yahoo.com Sat Nov 14 13:24:51 2009 From: meteoritefinder at yahoo.com (Robert Woolard) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:24:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage Message-ID: <984017.44578.qm@web39604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello Kevin, ? Others on the List will have much more experience and better advice to give you, but here are a couple of my experiences.? ? Inconsistency seems to be the rule of thumb. And, no doubt, 9-11 has changed things. Years ago I flew a 75lb meteorite in a carry on bag with no problems ( just a "weird look" from the security scanner person? ;-) There was no weight limits on a CARRY ON bag ... just a size limit. ( I guess they figured just how heavy could a carry on that size be??? ) That was BEFORE 9-11. AFTER 9-11, I wasn't even allowed to carry on a single slice from the afore-mentioned meteorite! They told me I "could hit someone over the head with it, or use it to brake out a window in the plane". ( They obviously didn't know the value of that slice! ;-) ? That was flying out of Little Rock, which a few people have told me is one of THE most restrictive airports they've ever seen. I was on my way to Tucson. When I flew out from Tucson on my return flight, I had NO problem what-so-ever in taking it aboard. So, it appears that it varies from airport to airport, as my opening sentence stated above. Over all, I'd say you would probably be in for a hassle. But good luck. ? Best wishes, ? Robert Woolard? --- On Sat, 11/14/09, Kevin Kichinka wrote: > From: Kevin Kichinka > Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 11:28 AM > I want to bring two iron meteorites, > one a Campo of 10 kgs., the other > a Gibeon of 4 kgs., to Costa Rica from Miami on American > Airlines. I > would never check them and take a chance they might > disappear. I would > carry them on the plane in a small suitcase. > > > Are these prohibited items? How do dealers flying around > the planet to > shows ship their rocks? > > > Thanks for any and all that have experience with this and > respond. > > > Kevin Kichinka > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From carothersdl at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 13:26:37 2009 From: carothersdl at gmail.com (dave carothers) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:26:37 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage Message-ID: <738425E2C26A4E2D824EC30F788C4473@your291etg47cr> Sorry Kevin and all, Please ignore my last. I just saw Adam's post. It is much more to the point and he obviously has better knowledge of this than I. Regards, Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "dave carothers" To: "Kevin Kichinka" ; Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage > Kevin, > > Have you called the airline or TSA and asked their advice? > > Regards, > > Dave > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kevin Kichinka" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 12:28 PM > Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage > > >>I want to bring two iron meteorites, one a Campo of 10 kgs., the other >> a Gibeon of 4 kgs., to Costa Rica from Miami on American Airlines. I >> would never check them and take a chance they might disappear. I would >> carry them on the plane in a small suitcase. >> >> >> Are these prohibited items? How do dealers flying around the planet to >> shows ship their rocks? >> >> >> Thanks for any and all that have experience with this and respond. >> >> >> Kevin Kichinka >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From darryl at dof3.com Sat Nov 14 13:30:06 2009 From: darryl at dof3.com (Darryl Pitt) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:30:06 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage In-Reply-To: <558031.97079.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <5bb98d570911140928o3868139dy2592a85ad203f31b@mail.gmail.com> <558031.97079.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <162779B0-8F91-41EC-90B5-8F04EB13D380@dof3.com> In light of Adam's comment, I should amplify my own... I recently flew with the 4.7 kg Lovina mass---which does have a spiked, truncheon vibe---and sailed through after an explanation. I was prepared to check it if necessary. I have never had a problem with someone checking the weight restriction of my carry-on---and airlines have made an allowance for overages. Adam is entirely right, though, you are inviting hassles and will need to know in advance how you will mitigate the "Sorry, we can't let you take that onboard." On Nov 14, 2009, at 12:42 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: > Kevin, you should know better, > > You will have to check them due to carry-on weight limitations, > especially on international flights. An iron meteorite could be used > to bash down the cockpit door. They would not even allow me to carry > on the Garza stone which weighs less than either of the two irons > you suggested. Of course, you could always try if you want to get > hassled. > > > Best of Luck, > > Adam > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Kevin Kichinka > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 9:28:08 AM > Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage > > I want to bring two iron meteorites, one a Campo of 10 kgs., the other > a Gibeon of 4 kgs., to Costa Rica from Miami on American Airlines. I > would never check them and take a chance they might disappear. I would > carry them on the plane in a small suitcase. > > > Are these prohibited items? How do dealers flying around the planet to > shows ship their rocks? > > > Thanks for any and all that have experience with this and respond. > > > Kevin Kichinka > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Sat Nov 14 13:46:35 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:46:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] BEATING A DEAD HORSE - The future and beyond In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <810071.98066.qm@web46409.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I would have to agree with you Dave. I also think that it shows a good deal about someone who is willing to help others, just as it shows a good deal about those that are not willing. Howards comments reflect a perfect example of why I have grown to have the impression that meteorites are dog eat dog and question motives and reasons for certain things. Should we really look at educating and helping newer collectors and tomorrows hunters/dealers as "bad" and "training the competition" or should we look at it as making sure those that will take the reigns of this great hobby have learned from those that know how to do it right? Sure to some, meteorites are simply that "gold mine" or "money falling from the sky" while to others, meteorites offer a chance to take part in something, to learn about and take part in the study of space and history. I guess it all comes down to why people are into meteorites... For money, or for the science of meteoritics. sure the money is good, I wont deny that, but is that all its really about? No. We are gifted with some wonderful things from outside this planet that we would never be able to touch, test, learn from or anything else many claim to value and want to preserve. With that in mind, should it not be in all of our best interests to make sure that the future generation has learned from those that know how to properly document, record, preserve and care for the collections we value so much today? Sure, some may look at it as training competition, but perhaps they should really look at it as passing on a gift of knowledge to those that will follow in the footsteps of the path they have already traveled... just my 2 pennies, hope everyone is having a good day! Greg C. www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA 4682 --- On Sat, 11/14/09, dave carothers wrote: > From: dave carothers > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD HORSEIs toMorocco > To: "Howard Steffic" , meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 1:20 PM > Howard, > > Respectfully... > > Reference your comment "I laugh at how the "newbies" expect > the veterans > with the battle scars to tell them exacty how to .... Hunt > Meteorites or > Sell on Ebay or send money overseas. Get off the couch and > do your own > legwork." > > Why should it bother YOU that someone should ask for for > advice or > assistance?? Go back through the history of this list > and you will see > literally thousands of instances where dealers and > professional hunters have > freely offered advice and assistance to > "newbies".???You don't think people > stay on this list for the ads, do you?? You don't > think people stay on this > list for the disputes, cyber fist fights, etc, do > you?? I personally stay on > this list (and I'm sure other do to) so we CAN ask for > advice and assistance > from the pros. > > I won't answer as to the motives or rationale of why > dealers and > professional hunters freely offer advice and assistance to > "newbies", but > suffice to say that I (and I know hundreds, maybe thousands > of others over > the history of this list) appreciate ALL the assistance > offered by ANYONE on > this list. > > Regards, > > Dave > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Howard Steffic" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 12:35 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - > BEATING A DEAD > HORSEIs toMorocco > > > > > > My point is, and perhaps you can explain > why.........? Any meteorite > > dealer or professional hunter should teach anybody how > be a competitor? > > > > Do you think McDonalds would teach you how to run a > restaurant? > > > > The logic that is used by some of these newbies is > what is moronic.? I > > don't hunt or sell but if I did, I wouldn't expect > anyone to teach me how > > to be a competitor. > > > > Respectfully yours..... > > > > Howard Steffic > > > > > >> From: carothersdl at gmail.com > >> To: bencubbin at hotmail.com; > meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send > payments - BEATING A DEAD > >> HORSEIs toMorocco > >> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:42:15 -0500 > >> > >> Howard, > >> > >> Your comment is moronic. This group is as much > about posting information > >> to > >> assist "newbies" as anything else. You should know > better. > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Howard Steffic" > >> To: > >> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 2:17 AM > >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send > payments - BEATING A DEAD > >> HORSEIs toMorocco > >> > >> > >>> > >>> Is anyone else getting tired of this moronic > discussion? > >>> > >>> I laugh at how the "newbies" expect the > veterans with the battle scars > >>> to > >>> tell them exacty how to .... Hunt Meteorites > or Sell on Ebay or send > >>> money overseas. Get off the couch and do your > own legwork. > >>> > >>> Now lets give this thread a proper burrial and > get back to meteorites. > >>> Didn't someone actually find something (like a > meteorite not an alien) > >>> that we can talk about? > >>> > >>> Howard Steffic > >>> > >>> > >>>> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:54:25 -0800 > >>>> From: abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com > >>>> To: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com; > meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; > >>>> searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net > >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to > send payments from Canada > >>>> toMorocco > >>>> > >>>> Hello Brian and all, > >>>> MoneyGram is available in Morocco, and > Abdellah is a good person five > >>>> stars in honesty and trust. > >>>> My best > >>>> Aziz > >>>> > >>>> --- On Fri, 11/13/09, Brian Cox > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> From: Brian Cox > >>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best > ways to send payments from Canada > >>>>> toMorocco > >>>>> To: "Melanie Matthews" , > >>>>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >>>>> Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 2:39 > PM > >>>>> Hi Melanie, > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm glad you are on top of this and > that you are keeping in > >>>>> touch with the seller. I'm glad he's > mailing back your > >>>>> postal money order. Hopefully the > Moneyram will work out and > >>>>> he'll accept it as he said and you'll > get your new > >>>>> meteorites. > >>>>> > >>>>> I wish you all the best and hope that > you receive some > >>>>> really great and rare meteorites in > the group. > >>>>> > >>>>> Have a great day! > >>>>> > >>>>> Brian > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: > "Melanie Matthews" > >>>>> > >>>>> To: "Brian Cox" ; > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:15 > AM > >>>>> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Best > ways to send payments > >>>>> from Canada toMorocco > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi Brian, listers. > >>>>> Actually it was a postal money order > that I > >>>>> mailed out to him (Mr. Abdellah > Afiniss), and yes it > >>>>> included the cost > >>>>> of the stones plus the shipping costs. > I asked him to mail > >>>>> it back to > >>>>> me and he said he did. > >>>>> > >>>>> Once I get the slip back I'm going to > >>>>> get back the money I put onto it and > re-send the payment to > >>>>> him - > >>>>> probably via Moneygram (which he told > me he accepts). > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> At first offered me a lot total of 8.5 > kgs of chondrites > >>>>> (all > >>>>> unclassified),, knowing full well I > couldn't afford all > >>>>> that I circled > >>>>> some stones in Paint.net (free image > editing program > >>>>> similar to > >>>>> MSPaint) that I wanted in the > photographs, emailed back to > >>>>> him and > >>>>> kindly asked him to send me images of > each meteorite I > >>>>> picked sitting > >>>>> on the scale to show their weights... > I then worked out the > >>>>> prices > >>>>> until I made the final decition on > buying five rocks > >>>>> together weighing > >>>>> 837 grams.. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> As I said he has been very > cooperative, and I thanks him > >>>>> and I thank all here on the list for > their > >>>>> input/suggestions! > >>>>> > >>>>> ----------- > >>>>> Melanie > >>>>> IMCA: 2975 > >>>>> eBay: metmel2775 > >>>>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as > SpaceCollector09 > >>>>> > >>>>> Unclassified meteorites are like a box > of chocolates... you > >>>>> never know what you're gonna get! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > ---------------------------------------- > >>>>>> From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net > >>>>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >>>>>> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:56:13 > -0600 > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best > ways to send > >>>>> payments from Canada to Morocco > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hello Melanie and list, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In regards to your question of > sending payments to > >>>>> Morocco, I have to ask a > >>>>>> couple of questions and others > also mentioned they > >>>>> weren't clear on your > >>>>>> question since you didn't seem to > be including > >>>>> shipping costs. I'd like to > >>>>>> help you out and I mean this in > the most thoughtful > >>>>> and kindest way > >>>>>> possible, so please don't take it > negatively or have > >>>>> any anger towards me. > >>>>>> Make sure you include shipping > costs when you were > >>>>> determining the total > >>>>>> amount of the payment you need to > send to the seller > >>>>> and then send a check > >>>>>> and then say you couldn't afford > the FedEx shipping > >>>>> costs if that is what > >>>>>> you agreed to buy from the seller? > You have said this > >>>>> in the past about not > >>>>>> having money to pay for something > or to pay for the > >>>>> shipping costs. It's > >>>>>> good to ask for help if you are > not experienced in > >>>>> sending payments outside > >>>>>> of Canada beyond Paypal. This > sounds like you decided > >>>>> to send a check for > >>>>>> the meteorites and then were going > to decide about a > >>>>> payment for the > >>>>>> "shipping" as a separate payment > or to pay for > >>>>> shipping later on. Is this > >>>>>> why you stated you couldn't afford > the FedEx shipping > >>>>> costs after you had > >>>>>> sent your personal Canadian paper > check? This doesn't > >>>>> sound right why you > >>>>>> wouldn't determine the full amount > due to the seller > >>>>> for the items with > >>>>>> shipping and or insurance and then > send one payment > >>>>> and later decide you > >>>>>> couldn't afford the shipping costs > they gave you. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Also, you stated you sent a "Paper > Check" which, as I > >>>>> am thinking is a > >>>>>> "personal check" from your > personal Canadian bank > >>>>> account by what you wrote. > >>>>>> I'm confused to why would you > think that a personal > >>>>> check from your Canadian > >>>>>> bank account would be "valid" as > you say, to a dealer > >>>>> in Morocco, which I am > >>>>>> sure it is valid in Canada and you > have money in your > >>>>> account, but most > >>>>>> likely would not be accepted in > Morocco or any other > >>>>> country? You don't > >>>>>> often hear of dealers in Asia, > Africa, Europe or for > >>>>> the most part any > >>>>>> dealers in the U.S. or anywhere in > North or South > >>>>> America or Australia that > >>>>>> would accept a personal Paper > check from a bank in a > >>>>> different country, > >>>>>> although it may happen. A check > from a Canadian bank > >>>>> account or from a U.S. > >>>>>> bank account or any personal paper > check from any > >>>>> other country most likely > >>>>>> won't be accepted unless they > verified with their bank > >>>>> first that they could > >>>>>> accept that check. An example > would be if there was > >>>>> Citibank in Canada and > >>>>>> then Citibank in the U.S. would > accept that check or > >>>>> Citibank in England, > >>>>>> etc. .I'm sure if the check was > from a bank that had a > >>>>> branch in that > >>>>>> country that it would be accepted, > but it usually > >>>>> creates a hassle and is > >>>>>> time consuming to stand in line or > through an ATM. As > >>>>> several members > >>>>>> mentioned bank wire is the safest > and then probably > >>>>> FedEx payment, but > >>>>>> sending a paper check or money > order isn't a good idea > >>>>> as Gary mentioned. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I would like to offer a friendly > suggestion to help > >>>>> you out. Please make > >>>>>> sure you discuss all the facts and > figures with any > >>>>> dealer/collector > >>>>>> anywhere in the world before > closing a deal. Remember > >>>>> you are entering a > >>>>>> contract with this dealer, whether > it is on ebay or > >>>>> through their website or > >>>>>> through correspondence with the > dealer. On ebay this > >>>>> is stated as you are > >>>>>> entering a contract so be mindful > of this. You need to > >>>>> finalize all costs. > >>>>>> You need to get the full amount > that you owe in > >>>>> writing, email, etc. for the > >>>>>> meteorites and any insurance and > shipping and then you > >>>>> need to first discuss > >>>>>> the method of payment to that > dealer before you send > >>>>> any payment. I think > >>>>>> your first mistake here was that > it sounds as if you > >>>>> didn't determine the > >>>>>> full costs of the meteorites with > shipping, then you > >>>>> didn't ask the seller > >>>>>> if he or she would accept a > "Personal Paper Check from > >>>>> another country. I > >>>>>> think you will have much better > luck and increase good > >>>>> relations with > >>>>>> dealers through online sales, ebay > and through the > >>>>> different meteorite lists > >>>>>> you if you slow down and get the > facts before making > >>>>> purchases and payments. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As you have written on your posts > the equivalent of > >>>>> The Tom Hanks character > >>>>>> from the Forest Gump movie, "Life > is like a box of > >>>>> chocolates." You need > >>>>>> to stop and think that your eyes > are bigger than your > >>>>> stomach and stop and > >>>>>> think of what you are wanting to > bid on or buy first > >>>>> and how to pay for it. > >>>>>> There is an old saying in America > that you may or may > >>>>> not know in Canada. > >>>>>> "Your eyes are bigger than your > stomach" which roughly > >>>>> means you saw the > >>>>>> food on the menu and you ordered > all that looked good > >>>>> to eat, but your > >>>>>> stomach wasn't big enough to eat > it all and you became > >>>>> very full before you > >>>>>> could finish the meal. This is the > same as the child > >>>>> that fills their plate > >>>>>> up and can't eat it all at home. > This also goes along > >>>>> with shopping at the > >>>>>> store when you are hungry and > buying too much, as in > >>>>> buying more goodies > >>>>>> than you needed. In this case > looking at meteorites > >>>>> you want to buy and then > >>>>>> not carefully researching making a > payment and then > >>>>> feeling full of > >>>>>> frustration and aggravation at how > to make the payment > >>>>> or what road to go > >>>>>> down. I truly hope this helps in > the future. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Have a great day! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Brian > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Best ways to send payments from > Canada to Morocco > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi list, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Please help - I mailed a payment > to a Moroccan dealer > >>>>> for a lot of > >>>>>> chondrites via a paper check, he > got it today, but he > >>>>> told me that the banks > >>>>>> over there don't recognize it even > though it is > >>>>> completely valid. I can't > >>>>>> afford the shipping costs through > FedEx for the lot I > >>>>> want - which will be > >>>>>> over $200 CND... so what other > less expensive options > >>>>> do you suggest? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you in advance > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ----------- > >>>>>> Melanie > >>>>>> IMCA: 2975 > >>>>>> eBay: metmel2775 > >>>>>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as > SpaceCollector09 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > ______________________________________________ > >>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >>>>> > >>>>> > _________________________________________________________________ > >>>>> Ready. Set. Get a great deal on > Windows 7. See fantastic > >>>>> deals on Windows 7 now > >>>>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818= > >>>>> > >>>>> > ______________________________________________ > >>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ______________________________________________ > >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >>> > _________________________________________________________________ > >>> Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn > more. > >>> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 > >>> > ______________________________________________ > >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in > one place. > > http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From gldfinder at yahoo.com Sat Nov 14 13:43:02 2009 From: gldfinder at yahoo.com (Larry Sloan) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:43:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Jim Smaller Message-ID: <368607.35640.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Jim was a trove of knowledge and information that will never be replaced. My condolences go out to Sue and his family. I first met Jim during the early era of searching the Franconia field. We often laughed about an incident that took place during this time period. Jim didn't have a GPS at first, and after describing to me where his monument was located, I would head out that way, find the monument and GPS it for him. On two different occasions while searching for his monuments, I found meteorites myself. One was 945 grams and the other was 1153 grams. The 1153 gram one was paired with John Wolfe's original Franconia by Melinda Hutson. Jim found several of the larger Franconia Irons and was responsible for getting the classification of Sacramento Wash 005. He also found the Buck Mountains 001 meteorite of 50 grams which is the oldest specimen to come out of the Franconia field in terrestrial age. Jim Spent many hours compiling the strewn field map of the Franconia finds. He could have sold his map for a profit, but refused to capitalize on it and shared it freely. Jim was brought up in a hard rock environment as his dad was a superintendent at the Gilman Mine in Colorado, and was responsible for many of the world class mineral specimens that came out of that mine. Jim also ran a food bank for many years out of his home supplying food to the needy in Chloride and Kingman. I was privileged to accompany him on his next to last hunt out at Red Dry Lake in March along with John Wolfe and Todd Parker. John found a meteorite and Jim found some artifacts. His last hunt was probably his best, as he took his young grandson out to a friends gold claim and found a gold nugget for him. His obituary can be found at http://www.kingmanda...ArticleID=34434 Larry Sloan 0 * * From cynapse at charter.net Sat Nov 14 13:56:40 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:56:40 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage In-Reply-To: <5bb98d570911140928o3868139dy2592a85ad203f31b@mail.gmail.com> References: <5bb98d570911140928o3868139dy2592a85ad203f31b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Just as long as you aren't carrying something really dangerous, like a snow globe... http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/travel/2010260025_websnow12.html From raremeteorites at yahoo.com Sat Nov 14 13:54:08 2009 From: raremeteorites at yahoo.com (Adam Hupe) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:54:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage In-Reply-To: <162779B0-8F91-41EC-90B5-8F04EB13D380@dof3.com> References: <5bb98d570911140928o3868139dy2592a85ad203f31b@mail.gmail.com> <558031.97079.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <162779B0-8F91-41EC-90B5-8F04EB13D380@dof3.com> Message-ID: <213611.10132.qm@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I rememember before 9-11, Mike Farmer lugging the ~100 Lbs main mass of the Fredericksburg Hexahedrite thorough several airports. He carried it on from Alaska and stored it in an overhead bin where it rolled around. Imagine if this would have bonked somebody on the head when opening the luggage compartment! He then dragged this "Ball-and-Chain" in the Seattle airport before deciding to put in in a airport locker. These were the good old days when you could check over 500 Lbs of luggage if you were nice to customs agents on international flights. Now, you would be lucky to check 75 Lbs and carry on more than 20 lbs. I remember a suitcase full of meteorites that weighed in excess of 270 pounds being dragged through an international airport. The handle broke off in the Customs agents hand when he was trying to assist. He was not amused as he skinned his knuckles and threw out his back. Best Regards, Adam From meteoritemike at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 13:54:27 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:54:27 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] BEATING A DEAD HORSE - The future and beyond In-Reply-To: <810071.98066.qm@web46409.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <810071.98066.qm@web46409.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Howard said - "My point is, and perhaps you can explain why......... Any meteorite dealer or professional hunter should teach anybody how be a competitor? Do you think McDonalds would teach you how to run a restaurant?" My condolences to any dealer of meteorites who wants to emulate the US corporate model - the same model that has destroyed several key sectors of our economy. Any dealer who wants to follow the blindly-capitalist, profit-first mindset of corporate America is going to be left in the dust by the rest of the dealers who give a crap about what they are doing and actually show appreciation to their customers. The days of the cold, stand-offish, "take it or leave it" type of dealer are coming to an end. You can already see them receding into obscurity - the market is changing. Change with it or be left behind. That's my 2 cents. Actual mileage may vary, but my mileage is great. ;) On 11/14/09, Greg Catterton wrote: > I would have to agree with you Dave. > > I also think that it shows a good deal about someone who is willing to help > others, just as it shows a good deal about those that are not willing. > > Howards comments reflect a perfect example of why I have grown to have the > impression that meteorites are dog eat dog and question motives and reasons > for certain things. > > Should we really look at educating and helping newer collectors and > tomorrows hunters/dealers as "bad" and "training the competition" or should > we look at it as making sure those that will take the reigns of this great > hobby have learned from those that know how to do it right? > > Sure to some, meteorites are simply that "gold mine" or "money falling from > the sky" while to others, meteorites offer a chance to take part in > something, to learn about and take part in the study of space and history. > > I guess it all comes down to why people are into meteorites... For money, or > for the science of meteoritics. sure the money is good, I wont deny that, > but is that all its really about? No. > > We are gifted with some wonderful things from outside this planet that we > would never be able to touch, test, learn from or anything else many claim > to value and want to preserve. With that in mind, should it not be in all of > our best interests to make sure that the future generation has learned from > those that know how to properly document, record, preserve and care for the > collections we value so much today? > > Sure, some may look at it as training competition, but perhaps they should > really look at it as passing on a gift of knowledge to those that will > follow in the footsteps of the path they have already traveled... > > just my 2 pennies, hope everyone is having a good day! > > > Greg C. > www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com > IMCA 4682 > > > --- On Sat, 11/14/09, dave carothers wrote: > >> From: dave carothers >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD >> HORSEIs toMorocco >> To: "Howard Steffic" , >> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 1:20 PM >> Howard, >> >> Respectfully... >> >> Reference your comment "I laugh at how the "newbies" expect >> the veterans >> with the battle scars to tell them exacty how to .... Hunt >> Meteorites or >> Sell on Ebay or send money overseas. Get off the couch and >> do your own >> legwork." >> >> Why should it bother YOU that someone should ask for for >> advice or >> assistance? Go back through the history of this list >> and you will see >> literally thousands of instances where dealers and >> professional hunters have >> freely offered advice and assistance to >> "newbies". You don't think people >> stay on this list for the ads, do you? You don't >> think people stay on this >> list for the disputes, cyber fist fights, etc, do >> you? I personally stay on >> this list (and I'm sure other do to) so we CAN ask for >> advice and assistance >> from the pros. >> >> I won't answer as to the motives or rationale of why >> dealers and >> professional hunters freely offer advice and assistance to >> "newbies", but >> suffice to say that I (and I know hundreds, maybe thousands >> of others over >> the history of this list) appreciate ALL the assistance >> offered by ANYONE on >> this list. >> >> Regards, >> >> Dave >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Howard Steffic" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 12:35 PM >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - >> BEATING A DEAD >> HORSEIs toMorocco >> >> >> > >> > My point is, and perhaps you can explain >> why......... Any meteorite >> > dealer or professional hunter should teach anybody how >> be a competitor? >> > >> > Do you think McDonalds would teach you how to run a >> restaurant? >> > >> > The logic that is used by some of these newbies is >> what is moronic. I >> > don't hunt or sell but if I did, I wouldn't expect >> anyone to teach me how >> > to be a competitor. >> > >> > Respectfully yours..... >> > >> > Howard Steffic >> > >> > >> >> From: carothersdl at gmail.com >> >> To: bencubbin at hotmail.com; >> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send >> payments - BEATING A DEAD >> >> HORSEIs toMorocco >> >> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:42:15 -0500 >> >> >> >> Howard, >> >> >> >> Your comment is moronic. This group is as much >> about posting information >> >> to >> >> assist "newbies" as anything else. You should know >> better. >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Howard Steffic" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 2:17 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send >> payments - BEATING A DEAD >> >> HORSEIs toMorocco >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Is anyone else getting tired of this moronic >> discussion? >> >>> >> >>> I laugh at how the "newbies" expect the >> veterans with the battle scars >> >>> to >> >>> tell them exacty how to .... Hunt Meteorites >> or Sell on Ebay or send >> >>> money overseas. Get off the couch and do your >> own legwork. >> >>> >> >>> Now lets give this thread a proper burrial and >> get back to meteorites. >> >>> Didn't someone actually find something (like a >> meteorite not an alien) >> >>> that we can talk about? >> >>> >> >>> Howard Steffic >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:54:25 -0800 >> >>>> From: abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com >> >>>> To: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com; >> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; >> >>>> searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net >> >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to >> send payments from Canada >> >>>> toMorocco >> >>>> >> >>>> Hello Brian and all, >> >>>> MoneyGram is available in Morocco, and >> Abdellah is a good person five >> >>>> stars in honesty and trust. >> >>>> My best >> >>>> Aziz >> >>>> >> >>>> --- On Fri, 11/13/09, Brian Cox >> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> From: Brian Cox >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best >> ways to send payments from Canada >> >>>>> toMorocco >> >>>>> To: "Melanie Matthews" , >> >>>>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> >>>>> Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 2:39 >> PM >> >>>>> Hi Melanie, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I'm glad you are on top of this and >> that you are keeping in >> >>>>> touch with the seller. I'm glad he's >> mailing back your >> >>>>> postal money order. Hopefully the >> Moneyram will work out and >> >>>>> he'll accept it as he said and you'll >> get your new >> >>>>> meteorites. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I wish you all the best and hope that >> you receive some >> >>>>> really great and rare meteorites in >> the group. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Have a great day! >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Brian >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >> "Melanie Matthews" >> >>>>> >> >>>>> To: "Brian Cox" ; >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:15 >> AM >> >>>>> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Best >> ways to send payments >> >>>>> from Canada toMorocco >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Hi Brian, listers. >> >>>>> Actually it was a postal money order >> that I >> >>>>> mailed out to him (Mr. Abdellah >> Afiniss), and yes it >> >>>>> included the cost >> >>>>> of the stones plus the shipping costs. >> I asked him to mail >> >>>>> it back to >> >>>>> me and he said he did. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Once I get the slip back I'm going to >> >>>>> get back the money I put onto it and >> re-send the payment to >> >>>>> him - >> >>>>> probably via Moneygram (which he told >> me he accepts). >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> At first offered me a lot total of 8.5 >> kgs of chondrites >> >>>>> (all >> >>>>> unclassified),, knowing full well I >> couldn't afford all >> >>>>> that I circled >> >>>>> some stones in Paint.net (free image >> editing program >> >>>>> similar to >> >>>>> MSPaint) that I wanted in the >> photographs, emailed back to >> >>>>> him and >> >>>>> kindly asked him to send me images of >> each meteorite I >> >>>>> picked sitting >> >>>>> on the scale to show their weights... >> I then worked out the >> >>>>> prices >> >>>>> until I made the final decition on >> buying five rocks >> >>>>> together weighing >> >>>>> 837 grams.. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> As I said he has been very >> cooperative, and I thanks him >> >>>>> and I thank all here on the list for >> their >> >>>>> input/suggestions! >> >>>>> >> >>>>> ----------- >> >>>>> Melanie >> >>>>> IMCA: 2975 >> >>>>> eBay: metmel2775 >> >>>>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as >> SpaceCollector09 >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Unclassified meteorites are like a box >> of chocolates... you >> >>>>> never know what you're gonna get! >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> ---------------------------------------- >> >>>>>> From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net >> >>>>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> >>>>>> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:56:13 >> -0600 >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best >> ways to send >> >>>>> payments from Canada to Morocco >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Hello Melanie and list, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> In regards to your question of >> sending payments to >> >>>>> Morocco, I have to ask a >> >>>>>> couple of questions and others >> also mentioned they >> >>>>> weren't clear on your >> >>>>>> question since you didn't seem to >> be including >> >>>>> shipping costs. I'd like to >> >>>>>> help you out and I mean this in >> the most thoughtful >> >>>>> and kindest way >> >>>>>> possible, so please don't take it >> negatively or have >> >>>>> any anger towards me. >> >>>>>> Make sure you include shipping >> costs when you were >> >>>>> determining the total >> >>>>>> amount of the payment you need to >> send to the seller >> >>>>> and then send a check >> >>>>>> and then say you couldn't afford >> the FedEx shipping >> >>>>> costs if that is what >> >>>>>> you agreed to buy from the seller? >> You have said this >> >>>>> in the past about not >> >>>>>> having money to pay for something >> or to pay for the >> >>>>> shipping costs. It's >> >>>>>> good to ask for help if you are >> not experienced in >> >>>>> sending payments outside >> >>>>>> of Canada beyond Paypal. This >> sounds like you decided >> >>>>> to send a check for >> >>>>>> the meteorites and then were going >> to decide about a >> >>>>> payment for the >> >>>>>> "shipping" as a separate payment >> or to pay for >> >>>>> shipping later on. Is this >> >>>>>> why you stated you couldn't afford >> the FedEx shipping >> >>>>> costs after you had >> >>>>>> sent your personal Canadian paper >> check? This doesn't >> >>>>> sound right why you >> >>>>>> wouldn't determine the full amount >> due to the seller >> >>>>> for the items with >> >>>>>> shipping and or insurance and then >> send one payment >> >>>>> and later decide you >> >>>>>> couldn't afford the shipping costs >> they gave you. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Also, you stated you sent a "Paper >> Check" which, as I >> >>>>> am thinking is a >> >>>>>> "personal check" from your >> personal Canadian bank >> >>>>> account by what you wrote. >> >>>>>> I'm confused to why would you >> think that a personal >> >>>>> check from your Canadian >> >>>>>> bank account would be "valid" as >> you say, to a dealer >> >>>>> in Morocco, which I am >> >>>>>> sure it is valid in Canada and you >> have money in your >> >>>>> account, but most >> >>>>>> likely would not be accepted in >> Morocco or any other >> >>>>> country? You don't >> >>>>>> often hear of dealers in Asia, >> Africa, Europe or for >> >>>>> the most part any >> >>>>>> dealers in the U.S. or anywhere in >> North or South >> >>>>> America or Australia that >> >>>>>> would accept a personal Paper >> check from a bank in a >> >>>>> different country, >> >>>>>> although it may happen. A check >> from a Canadian bank >> >>>>> account or from a U.S. >> >>>>>> bank account or any personal paper >> check from any >> >>>>> other country most likely >> >>>>>> won't be accepted unless they >> verified with their bank >> >>>>> first that they could >> >>>>>> accept that check. An example >> would be if there was >> >>>>> Citibank in Canada and >> >>>>>> then Citibank in the U.S. would >> accept that check or >> >>>>> Citibank in England, >> >>>>>> etc. .I'm sure if the check was >> from a bank that had a >> >>>>> branch in that >> >>>>>> country that it would be accepted, >> but it usually >> >>>>> creates a hassle and is >> >>>>>> time consuming to stand in line or >> through an ATM. As >> >>>>> several members >> >>>>>> mentioned bank wire is the safest >> and then probably >> >>>>> FedEx payment, but >> >>>>>> sending a paper check or money >> order isn't a good idea >> >>>>> as Gary mentioned. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I would like to offer a friendly >> suggestion to help >> >>>>> you out. Please make >> >>>>>> sure you discuss all the facts and >> figures with any >> >>>>> dealer/collector >> >>>>>> anywhere in the world before >> closing a deal. Remember >> >>>>> you are entering a >> >>>>>> contract with this dealer, whether >> it is on ebay or >> >>>>> through their website or >> >>>>>> through correspondence with the >> dealer. On ebay this >> >>>>> is stated as you are >> >>>>>> entering a contract so be mindful >> of this. You need to >> >>>>> finalize all costs. >> >>>>>> You need to get the full amount >> that you owe in >> >>>>> writing, email, etc. for the >> >>>>>> meteorites and any insurance and >> shipping and then you >> >>>>> need to first discuss >> >>>>>> the method of payment to that >> dealer before you send >> >>>>> any payment. I think >> >>>>>> your first mistake here was that >> it sounds as if you >> >>>>> didn't determine the >> >>>>>> full costs of the meteorites with >> shipping, then you >> >>>>> didn't ask the seller >> >>>>>> if he or she would accept a >> "Personal Paper Check from >> >>>>> another country. I >> >>>>>> think you will have much better >> luck and increase good >> >>>>> relations with >> >>>>>> dealers through online sales, ebay >> and through the >> >>>>> different meteorite lists >> >>>>>> you if you slow down and get the >> facts before making >> >>>>> purchases and payments. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> As you have written on your posts >> the equivalent of >> >>>>> The Tom Hanks character >> >>>>>> from the Forest Gump movie, "Life >> is like a box of >> >>>>> chocolates." You need >> >>>>>> to stop and think that your eyes >> are bigger than your >> >>>>> stomach and stop and >> >>>>>> think of what you are wanting to >> bid on or buy first >> >>>>> and how to pay for it. >> >>>>>> There is an old saying in America >> that you may or may >> >>>>> not know in Canada. >> >>>>>> "Your eyes are bigger than your >> stomach" which roughly >> >>>>> means you saw the >> >>>>>> food on the menu and you ordered >> all that looked good >> >>>>> to eat, but your >> >>>>>> stomach wasn't big enough to eat >> it all and you became >> >>>>> very full before you >> >>>>>> could finish the meal. This is the >> same as the child >> >>>>> that fills their plate >> >>>>>> up and can't eat it all at home. >> This also goes along >> >>>>> with shopping at the >> >>>>>> store when you are hungry and >> buying too much, as in >> >>>>> buying more goodies >> >>>>>> than you needed. In this case >> looking at meteorites >> >>>>> you want to buy and then >> >>>>>> not carefully researching making a >> payment and then >> >>>>> feeling full of >> >>>>>> frustration and aggravation at how >> to make the payment >> >>>>> or what road to go >> >>>>>> down. I truly hope this helps in >> the future. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Have a great day! >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Brian >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Best ways to send payments from >> Canada to Morocco >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Hi list, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Please help - I mailed a payment >> to a Moroccan dealer >> >>>>> for a lot of >> >>>>>> chondrites via a paper check, he >> got it today, but he >> >>>>> told me that the banks >> >>>>>> over there don't recognize it even >> though it is >> >>>>> completely valid. I can't >> >>>>>> afford the shipping costs through >> FedEx for the lot I >> >>>>> want - which will be >> >>>>>> over $200 CND... so what other >> less expensive options >> >>>>> do you suggest? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Thank you in advance >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> ----------- >> >>>>>> Melanie >> >>>>>> IMCA: 2975 >> >>>>>> eBay: metmel2775 >> >>>>>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as >> SpaceCollector09 >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> ______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> >>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >> >>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> >>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> >>>>> Ready. Set. Get a great deal on >> Windows 7. See fantastic >> >>>>> deals on Windows 7 now >> >>>>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818= >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> ______________________________________________ >> >>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> >>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >> >>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> >>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> ______________________________________________ >> >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >> >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >>> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> >>> Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn >> more. >> >>> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >> >>> >> ______________________________________________ >> >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >> >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> >> > >> _________________________________________________________________ >> > Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in >> one place. >> > http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 >> > ______________________________________________ >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Florida, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com FaceBook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone MySpace - http://www.myspace.com/fine_meteorites_4_sale Twitter - Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone eBay - http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/maypickle .......................................................... From meteoritefinder at yahoo.com Sat Nov 14 14:05:21 2009 From: meteoritefinder at yahoo.com (meteoritefinder at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:05:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Carry on Message-ID: <619937.96280.qm@web39603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I obviously meant to type "break" out a window, not "brake" out. Little too fast on the Send button on my previous post. Sorry. Robert Sent from my iPhone From countdeiro at earthlink.net Sat Nov 14 13:56:52 2009 From: countdeiro at earthlink.net (countdeiro at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:56:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meteorite-list] WHY HELP A DUMB ASS NEWBIE? Message-ID: <4244027.1258225012559.JavaMail.root@wamui-cynical.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Or, what do "newbies" mean to the ongoing collection, classification, sale and display of meteorites? I'm a "newbie". I haven't yet found a meteorite and apparently this is one of the qualifiers to be a "real deal" meteorite hunter/collector. I don't have a clue what other qualifiers are. What I have done, is sell my jet boat 10 months ago and spend thousands of dollars subscribing to magazines, purchasing books and field guides, buying an zoom microscope, testing equipment, chemicals, magnifying loupes and glasses, hand tools, a work bench, lighting, a locking cabinet, neomydium magnets, a metal detector, picks and shovels, back packs, desert hiking and camping clothing and equipment, maps of strewn fields, a GPS device and I traded my Ford sedan for a 4 wheel drive Jeep Cherokee. I found out about the LIST six months ago from a neighbor, Sonny Clary, (who gave me my first meteorite and continues to give me others..) I began reading every posting on the LIST. I set about to collect examples of the requiste types of meteorites and tektites that you "real deals" write about. After obtaining specimens of the three major classifications, I began "going for the planetary rarities and the low tkw stuff". I've collected sixty examples, as of today and maintain a list of future "have to haves". All of the above...I'll say it again...All..(except that Jeep)..was bought from individuals and companies I found on on the "LIST". That's why "newbies" on the "LIST" should be treated respectfully and encouraged to ask questions. Count Deiro -----Original Message----- >From: Carl 's >Sent: Nov 14, 2009 10:04 AM >To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >Subject: [meteorite-list] Beating a dead horse to Morocco > > > >Hello Howard, All, > >You are absolutely correct. We newbies should not ask knowledgeable veterans such basic questions. We must do the legwork ourselves but never reveal how we do it to achieve our goals if someone asks. Speaking for myself I would like to thank you, Howard, for all the wonderful and thought provoking topics about meteorites you have provided in the past. Did I mention you would be a great teacher? > >For those not familiar with Howard's input, please type "Howard Steffic" in the search window. > >Howard, you asked if anyone actually found a meteorite? Please start a thread about meteorites we can all talk seriously about. You know you can't rely on newbies to do anything right. Thanks for setting us, newbies, straight! > >Carl > > >Howard wrote: >>...I laugh at how the "newbies" expect the veterans with the battle scars to tell >them exacty how to .... Hunt Meteorites or Sell on Ebay or send money >overseas. Get off the couch and do your own legwork. > >Now lets give this thread a proper burrial and get back to meteorites. Didn't >someone actually find something (like a meteorite not an alien) that we can >talk about?... > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. >http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >______________________________________________ >http://www.meteoritecentral.com >Meteorite-list mailing list >Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From eric at meteoritesusa.com Sat Nov 14 14:18:09 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:18:09 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites & Competition Message-ID: <4AFF0271.3040801@meteoritesusa.com> Hi Listees, With respect to all, but without concern for offending the easily offendable I would like to say: If you want to learn about meteorites ASK. If you want to sell meteorites, then buy them, or find them, and sell them. If you want to collect meteorites then collect them. If you want to find them, do the research yourself and help contribute something rather than complaining about people who won't contribute to creating their own competition. If you want to hunt for meteorites with a team ASK and be man (or woman) enough to except a no and be grateful if you get a yes! Be appreciative of the help you do receive. Don't whine! If you'd like to learn to etch meteorites If you'd like to learn how to track and find new meteorite falls If you'd like to learn how to get others help then do the following: Help others in turn! Offer to help when it's not expected! Give! Do your own research! Get out there and hunt! Get out there and make your own contacts. Don't "expect" people just to jump in and be happy to help you. Stop whining. Work your ass off! Put in the hours! Have something to contribute! Earn it! And most of all, don't make the mistake of thinking this business is dog-eat-dog. It's like ANY industry or social group and is what you make it. If you look at is in a certain light, that is what you will see. Have something to give, and do your own work, don't try piggy-backing on others successes. People will usually not help those who don't help them unless they are just nice people. Show respect and have admiration for those who go out and spend the countless hours and thousands of dollars researching the meteorites they love so much... Treat people the way you want to be treated and you'll garner a lot more respect from your peers in ANY business. Help people and they will help you. Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA From astroroks at hotmail.com Sat Nov 14 14:23:02 2009 From: astroroks at hotmail.com (Dennis Miller) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:23:02 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage In-Reply-To: <0B5B5A67-9224-4E4F-B444-4451CD88A8D9@dof3.com> References: <5bb98d570911140928o3868139dy2592a85ad203f31b@mail.gmail.com>, <0B5B5A67-9224-4E4F-B444-4451CD88A8D9@dof3.com> Message-ID: In mine, the TSA in Cairo considered my samples as "Hazardous Projectiles" and would not allow them as carry-on. Had to check them. That was in September. Got home with them O.K. Just fossels, got stopped for my meteorite search in Sudan. Dennis > From: darryl at dof3.com > To: marsrox at gmail.com > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 12:56:38 -0500 > CC: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage > > > > in my experience, it's at the discretion of the TSA supervisor on duty. > > good luck. best/ d, > > > > > On Nov 14, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Kevin Kichinka wrote: > >> I want to bring two iron meteorites, one a Campo of 10 kgs., the other >> a Gibeon of 4 kgs., to Costa Rica from Miami on American Airlines. I >> would never check them and take a chance they might disappear. I would >> carry them on the plane in a small suitcase. >> >> >> Are these prohibited items? How do dealers flying around the planet to >> shows ship their rocks? >> >> >> Thanks for any and all that have experience with this and respond. >> >> >> Kevin Kichinka >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From raremeteorites at yahoo.com Sat Nov 14 15:29:30 2009 From: raremeteorites at yahoo.com (Adam Hupe) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 12:29:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites & Competition In-Reply-To: <4AFF0271.3040801@meteoritesusa.com> References: <4AFF0271.3040801@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: <557682.80472.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear List, I think it is crazy to talk about corporate greed and meteorites at the same time. There are much simpler ways of earning money than chasing and selling meteorites. You have to have a love for these rocks to engage at this level. The overhead is astonishing while the returns are unpredictable in an incredibly thin market. Risk management doesn't exist. I believe more corporate involvement is needed to push this avocation to the next level. The IMCA is a perfect example of a positive corporate influence on a mostly misunderstood hobby. What lacks the most right now is customer service and value added reselling. Most new dealers do not even polish out the saw marks on slices, let alone polish both sides. Collectors pay for both sides of a complete slice, not just one. It is disrespectful to cut a meteorite and then not complete the job. A good polish is more important for reasons beyond aesthetics. Certification is the most important aspect of collecting and is consistently lacking when dealing with meteorites. One just needs to look at coins, baseball cards and most other collectibles to see they are nearly worthless without it. In virtually ever other collectibles market, there are standards in place thanks to corporate interest. These days, some uninformed elements treat meteorites like commodities that are renewable. Nothing could be further from the truth. The lack of appreciation for these rarities is really on full display during these hard times. People forget that meteorites are millions of time rarer than gold that currently maintains a price of around $35.00/gram. May I remind you that now only about 1/20th the amount of meteorites by weight is all that is coming out of Moroccan compared to just five years ago according to my calculations. It will not be long before the non-available Antarctic meteorites regain the volume title once again. I do appreciate the real nomadic meteorite hunters from Morocco and surrounding countries. In my opinion, they are the best in world. It is what happens to meteorites after they leave the finders hands that concerns me. Standards, proper appreciation and corporate involvement are key to the long-term future. I see a business-like environment helping in all of these regards. Collectors deserve to have their investments protected. All the best, Adam From meteoritemike at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 16:09:41 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:09:41 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites & Competition (Government Bailout of the Meteorite Industry?) Message-ID: Hi Adam, You are right, I did jump to conclusions in my last post. But, when I heard meteorites being compared to McDonalds, it made me cringe. The last thing anyone wants is Meteorite Value Meals.............or is it? Hmmmm........ LOL Best regards, MikeG PS - instead of making meteorites corporate, how about a government bail out of the meteorite industry? We could have CASH FOR RUSTERS! Trade in your oxidized Dronino for a shiny new Sikhote Alin! ;) On 11/14/09, Adam Hupe wrote: > Dear List, > > > I think it is crazy to talk about corporate greed and meteorites at the same > time. There are much simpler ways of earning money than chasing and selling > meteorites. You have to have a love for these rocks to engage at this > level. The overhead is astonishing while the returns are unpredictable in > an incredibly thin market. Risk management doesn't exist. > > I believe more corporate involvement is needed to push this avocation to the > next level. The IMCA is a perfect example of a positive corporate influence > on a mostly misunderstood hobby. What lacks the most right now is customer > service and value added reselling. Most new dealers do not even polish out > the saw marks on slices, let alone polish both sides. Collectors pay for > both sides of a complete slice, not just one. It is disrespectful to cut a > meteorite and then not complete the job. A good polish is more important for > reasons beyond aesthetics. Certification is the most important aspect of > collecting and is consistently lacking when dealing with meteorites. One > just needs to look at coins, baseball cards and most other collectibles to > see they are nearly worthless without it. > > In virtually ever other collectibles market, there are standards in place > thanks to corporate interest. These days, some uninformed elements treat > meteorites like commodities that are renewable. Nothing could be further > from the truth. The lack of appreciation for these rarities is really on > full display during these hard times. People forget that meteorites are > millions of time rarer than gold that currently maintains a price of around > $35.00/gram. May I remind you that now only about 1/20th the amount of > meteorites by weight is all that is coming out of Moroccan compared to just > five years ago according to my calculations. It will not be long before the > non-available Antarctic meteorites regain the volume title once again. > > I do appreciate the real nomadic meteorite hunters from Morocco and > surrounding countries. In my opinion, they are the best in world. It is > what happens to meteorites after they leave the finders hands that concerns > me. > > Standards, proper appreciation and corporate involvement are key to the > long-term future. I see a business-like environment helping in all of these > regards. Collectors deserve to have their investments protected. > > All the best, > > Adam > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Florida, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com FaceBook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone MySpace - http://www.myspace.com/fine_meteorites_4_sale Twitter - Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone eBay - http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/maypickle .......................................................... From felipeg36 at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 16:53:51 2009 From: felipeg36 at gmail.com (Felipe Guajardo) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:53:51 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Question regarding Vaca Muerta Strewnfield Message-ID: <18fdccaa0911141353x3ec9652gf3ee4ce9eba88662@mail.gmail.com> Hello everyone, Last month I posted a question regarding the Vaca Muerta Strewnfield but didn't get a definite answer. I'm going to try again. This December, I'm planning on going to northern chile and hunting both Imilac and Vaca Muerta Strewnfields. The coordinates online for Vaca Muerta are 25? 45' S / 70? 30' W. Then I found this great pic of the strewnfield http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/1196/vacamuerta.jpg The coordinates of the center of the strewnfield in the pic are 25?51'29.76"S / 70?19'42.93"W. I would like to know which coordinates is the strewnfield located on. The distance between both coordinates are roughly 12.5 miles. Thanks so much! Felipe From mlblood at cox.net Sat Nov 14 17:07:12 2009 From: mlblood at cox.net (Michael Blood) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 14:07:12 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Giving Help on list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In my opinion, Dave & Howard BOTH present excellent points of view. When IS it "asking too much" when people are asking advice? Some likely resent it when Chicago Steve asks a question of the List he could easily look up, himself, for instance. On the other Hand, part of the value of the list is people helping people. As for "helping the competition" - there are many complexities Involved here: Certainly, if a person has found a strewn field, or A rich portion of a strewn field, he would not likely share that, Nor should he be expected to share that, with just anyone. Perhaps One or two friends that do the same for him, but certainly not Everyone on the list. (Someone likened this to telling everyone Where you found gold). On the other hand, if someone asks the list membership about The best saw blade makes for cutting irons, or the best "all around" Lapidary saw for the amateur, or the like, those are certainly questions Those with more expereince should readily be willing to share. There is a delicate balance for the people who make a living selling And/or finding meteorites when it comes to other dealers. I always Prefer cooperation but almost always find a "competition" head set As far as other dealers go. So, there are 6 or 8 dealers I "work with" In a far more generous manor than other dealers which have clearly Related to me as though my success were taking away from their Success. This is an unfortunate way of looking at the situation in Many cases, but quite factual in others. - see above re "finding gold." In short, it ain't all that simple, but cooperation is the ideal in Many if not most cases. Best wishes, Michael On 11/14/09 10:20 AM, "dave carothers" wrote: > Howard, > > Respectfully... > > Reference your comment "I laugh at how the "newbies" expect the veterans > with the battle scars to tell them exacty how to .... Hunt Meteorites or > Sell on Ebay or send money overseas. Get off the couch and do your own > legwork." > > Why should it bother YOU that someone should ask for for advice or > assistance? Go back through the history of this list and you will see > literally thousands of instances where dealers and professional hunters have > freely offered advice and assistance to "newbies". You don't think people > stay on this list for the ads, do you? You don't think people stay on this > list for the disputes, cyber fist fights, etc, do you? I personally stay on > this list (and I'm sure other do to) so we CAN ask for advice and assistance > from the pros. > > I won't answer as to the motives or rationale of why dealers and > professional hunters freely offer advice and assistance to "newbies", but > suffice to say that I (and I know hundreds, maybe thousands of others over > the history of this list) appreciate ALL the assistance offered by ANYONE on > this list. > > Regards, > > Dave > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Howard Steffic" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 12:35 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD > HORSEIs toMorocco > > >> >> My point is, and perhaps you can explain why......... Any meteorite >> dealer or professional hunter should teach anybody how be a competitor? >> >> Do you think McDonalds would teach you how to run a restaurant? >> >> The logic that is used by some of these newbies is what is moronic. I >> don't hunt or sell but if I did, I wouldn't expect anyone to teach me how >> to be a competitor. >> >> Respectfully yours..... >> >> Howard Steffic >> >> >>> From: carothersdl at gmail.com >>> To: bencubbin at hotmail.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD >>> HORSEIs toMorocco >>> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:42:15 -0500 >>> >>> Howard, >>> >>> Your comment is moronic. This group is as much about posting information >>> to >>> assist "newbies" as anything else. You should know better. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Howard Steffic" >>> To: >>> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 2:17 AM >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD >>> HORSEIs toMorocco >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Is anyone else getting tired of this moronic discussion? >>>> >>>> I laugh at how the "newbies" expect the veterans with the battle scars >>>> to >>>> tell them exacty how to .... Hunt Meteorites or Sell on Ebay or send >>>> money overseas. Get off the couch and do your own legwork. >>>> >>>> Now lets give this thread a proper burrial and get back to meteorites. >>>> Didn't someone actually find something (like a meteorite not an alien) >>>> that we can talk about? >>>> >>>> Howard Steffic >>>> >>>> >>>>> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:54:25 -0800 >>>>> From: abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com >>>>> To: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; >>>>> searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net >>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada >>>>> toMorocco >>>>> >>>>> Hello Brian and all, >>>>> MoneyGram is available in Morocco, and Abdellah is a good person five >>>>> stars in honesty and trust. >>>>> My best >>>>> Aziz >>>>> >>>>> --- On Fri, 11/13/09, Brian Cox wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> From: Brian Cox >>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments from Canada >>>>>> toMorocco >>>>>> To: "Melanie Matthews" , >>>>>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>> Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 2:39 PM >>>>>> Hi Melanie, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm glad you are on top of this and that you are keeping in >>>>>> touch with the seller. I'm glad he's mailing back your >>>>>> postal money order. Hopefully the Moneyram will work out and >>>>>> he'll accept it as he said and you'll get your new >>>>>> meteorites. >>>>>> >>>>>> I wish you all the best and hope that you receive some >>>>>> really great and rare meteorites in the group. >>>>>> >>>>>> Have a great day! >>>>>> >>>>>> Brian >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melanie Matthews" >>>>>> >>>>>> To: "Brian Cox" ; >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:15 AM >>>>>> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments >>>>>> from Canada toMorocco >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Brian, listers. >>>>>> Actually it was a postal money order that I >>>>>> mailed out to him (Mr. Abdellah Afiniss), and yes it >>>>>> included the cost >>>>>> of the stones plus the shipping costs. I asked him to mail >>>>>> it back to >>>>>> me and he said he did. >>>>>> >>>>>> Once I get the slip back I'm going to >>>>>> get back the money I put onto it and re-send the payment to >>>>>> him - >>>>>> probably via Moneygram (which he told me he accepts). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> At first offered me a lot total of 8.5 kgs of chondrites >>>>>> (all >>>>>> unclassified),, knowing full well I couldn't afford all >>>>>> that I circled >>>>>> some stones in Paint.net (free image editing program >>>>>> similar to >>>>>> MSPaint) that I wanted in the photographs, emailed back to >>>>>> him and >>>>>> kindly asked him to send me images of each meteorite I >>>>>> picked sitting >>>>>> on the scale to show their weights... I then worked out the >>>>>> prices >>>>>> until I made the final decition on buying five rocks >>>>>> together weighing >>>>>> 837 grams.. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> As I said he has been very cooperative, and I thanks him >>>>>> and I thank all here on the list for their >>>>>> input/suggestions! >>>>>> >>>>>> ----------- >>>>>> Melanie >>>>>> IMCA: 2975 >>>>>> eBay: metmel2775 >>>>>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 >>>>>> >>>>>> Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you >>>>>> never know what you're gonna get! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------- >>>>>>> From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net >>>>>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:56:13 -0600 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send >>>>>> payments from Canada to Morocco >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello Melanie and list, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In regards to your question of sending payments to >>>>>> Morocco, I have to ask a >>>>>>> couple of questions and others also mentioned they >>>>>> weren't clear on your >>>>>>> question since you didn't seem to be including >>>>>> shipping costs. I'd like to >>>>>>> help you out and I mean this in the most thoughtful >>>>>> and kindest way >>>>>>> possible, so please don't take it negatively or have >>>>>> any anger towards me. >>>>>>> Make sure you include shipping costs when you were >>>>>> determining the total >>>>>>> amount of the payment you need to send to the seller >>>>>> and then send a check >>>>>>> and then say you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping >>>>>> costs if that is what >>>>>>> you agreed to buy from the seller? You have said this >>>>>> in the past about not >>>>>>> having money to pay for something or to pay for the >>>>>> shipping costs. It's >>>>>>> good to ask for help if you are not experienced in >>>>>> sending payments outside >>>>>>> of Canada beyond Paypal. This sounds like you decided >>>>>> to send a check for >>>>>>> the meteorites and then were going to decide about a >>>>>> payment for the >>>>>>> "shipping" as a separate payment or to pay for >>>>>> shipping later on. Is this >>>>>>> why you stated you couldn't afford the FedEx shipping >>>>>> costs after you had >>>>>>> sent your personal Canadian paper check? This doesn't >>>>>> sound right why you >>>>>>> wouldn't determine the full amount due to the seller >>>>>> for the items with >>>>>>> shipping and or insurance and then send one payment >>>>>> and later decide you >>>>>>> couldn't afford the shipping costs they gave you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, you stated you sent a "Paper Check" which, as I >>>>>> am thinking is a >>>>>>> "personal check" from your personal Canadian bank >>>>>> account by what you wrote. >>>>>>> I'm confused to why would you think that a personal >>>>>> check from your Canadian >>>>>>> bank account would be "valid" as you say, to a dealer >>>>>> in Morocco, which I am >>>>>>> sure it is valid in Canada and you have money in your >>>>>> account, but most >>>>>>> likely would not be accepted in Morocco or any other >>>>>> country? You don't >>>>>>> often hear of dealers in Asia, Africa, Europe or for >>>>>> the most part any >>>>>>> dealers in the U.S. or anywhere in North or South >>>>>> America or Australia that >>>>>>> would accept a personal Paper check from a bank in a >>>>>> different country, >>>>>>> although it may happen. A check from a Canadian bank >>>>>> account or from a U.S. >>>>>>> bank account or any personal paper check from any >>>>>> other country most likely >>>>>>> won't be accepted unless they verified with their bank >>>>>> first that they could >>>>>>> accept that check. An example would be if there was >>>>>> Citibank in Canada and >>>>>>> then Citibank in the U.S. would accept that check or >>>>>> Citibank in England, >>>>>>> etc. .I'm sure if the check was from a bank that had a >>>>>> branch in that >>>>>>> country that it would be accepted, but it usually >>>>>> creates a hassle and is >>>>>>> time consuming to stand in line or through an ATM. As >>>>>> several members >>>>>>> mentioned bank wire is the safest and then probably >>>>>> FedEx payment, but >>>>>>> sending a paper check or money order isn't a good idea >>>>>> as Gary mentioned. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would like to offer a friendly suggestion to help >>>>>> you out. Please make >>>>>>> sure you discuss all the facts and figures with any >>>>>> dealer/collector >>>>>>> anywhere in the world before closing a deal. Remember >>>>>> you are entering a >>>>>>> contract with this dealer, whether it is on ebay or >>>>>> through their website or >>>>>>> through correspondence with the dealer. On ebay this >>>>>> is stated as you are >>>>>>> entering a contract so be mindful of this. You need to >>>>>> finalize all costs. >>>>>>> You need to get the full amount that you owe in >>>>>> writing, email, etc. for the >>>>>>> meteorites and any insurance and shipping and then you >>>>>> need to first discuss >>>>>>> the method of payment to that dealer before you send >>>>>> any payment. I think >>>>>>> your first mistake here was that it sounds as if you >>>>>> didn't determine the >>>>>>> full costs of the meteorites with shipping, then you >>>>>> didn't ask the seller >>>>>>> if he or she would accept a "Personal Paper Check from >>>>>> another country. I >>>>>>> think you will have much better luck and increase good >>>>>> relations with >>>>>>> dealers through online sales, ebay and through the >>>>>> different meteorite lists >>>>>>> you if you slow down and get the facts before making >>>>>> purchases and payments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As you have written on your posts the equivalent of >>>>>> The Tom Hanks character >>>>>>> from the Forest Gump movie, "Life is like a box of >>>>>> chocolates." You need >>>>>>> to stop and think that your eyes are bigger than your >>>>>> stomach and stop and >>>>>>> think of what you are wanting to bid on or buy first >>>>>> and how to pay for it. >>>>>>> There is an old saying in America that you may or may >>>>>> not know in Canada. >>>>>>> "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach" which roughly >>>>>> means you saw the >>>>>>> food on the menu and you ordered all that looked good >>>>>> to eat, but your >>>>>>> stomach wasn't big enough to eat it all and you became >>>>>> very full before you >>>>>>> could finish the meal. This is the same as the child >>>>>> that fills their plate >>>>>>> up and can't eat it all at home. This also goes along >>>>>> with shopping at the >>>>>>> store when you are hungry and buying too much, as in >>>>>> buying more goodies >>>>>>> than you needed. In this case looking at meteorites >>>>>> you want to buy and then >>>>>>> not carefully researching making a payment and then >>>>>> feeling full of >>>>>>> frustration and aggravation at how to make the payment >>>>>> or what road to go >>>>>>> down. I truly hope this helps in the future. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Have a great day! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best ways to send payments from Canada to Morocco >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi list, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please help - I mailed a payment to a Moroccan dealer >>>>>> for a lot of >>>>>>> chondrites via a paper check, he got it today, but he >>>>>> told me that the banks >>>>>>> over there don't recognize it even though it is >>>>>> completely valid. I can't >>>>>>> afford the shipping costs through FedEx for the lot I >>>>>> want - which will be >>>>>>> over $200 CND... so what other less expensive options >>>>>> do you suggest? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you in advance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>> Melanie >>>>>>> IMCA: 2975 >>>>>>> eBay: metmel2775 >>>>>>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ______________________________________________ >>>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>>>> >>>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>>> Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic >>>>>> deals on Windows 7 now >>>>>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818= >>>>>> >>>>>> ______________________________________________ >>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________________________ >>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. >>>> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WL >>>> MTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. >> http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_M >> FESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From bencubbin at hotmail.com Sat Nov 14 17:14:42 2009 From: bencubbin at hotmail.com (Howard Steffic) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:14:42 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] BEATING A DEAD HORSE - The future and beyond In-Reply-To: <810071.98066.qm@web46409.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: , <810071.98066.qm@web46409.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Well Greg... The way you ended your email pretty much says it all: Just my two pennies. From what I understand that is pyou pretty much all you have to spend. So you get deserve two cents worth. Pretty much way down on the food chain in my opinion. Business in the USA is a dog eat dog world. That is capitalizm dude. Didn't you learn anything in business school? That is what I am talking about, Business. Good lOrd get a clue dude. Howard Steffic > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:46:35 -0800 > From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BEATING A DEAD HORSE - The future and beyond > > I would have to agree with you Dave. > > I also think that it shows a good deal about someone who is willing to help others, just as it shows a good deal about those that are not willing. > > Howards comments reflect a perfect example of why I have grown to have the impression that meteorites are dog eat dog and question motives and reasons for certain things. > > Should we really look at educating and helping newer collectors and tomorrows hunters/dealers as "bad" and "training the competition" or should we look at it as making sure those that will take the reigns of this great hobby have learned from those that know how to do it right? > > Sure to some, meteorites are simply that "gold mine" or "money falling from the sky" while to others, meteorites offer a chance to take part in something, to learn about and take part in the study of space and history. > > I guess it all comes down to why people are into meteorites... For money, or for the science of meteoritics. sure the money is good, I wont deny that, but is that all its really about? No. > > We are gifted with some wonderful things from outside this planet that we would never be able to touch, test, learn from or anything else many claim to value and want to preserve. With that in mind, should it not be in all of our best interests to make sure that the future generation has learned from those that know how to properly document, record, preserve and care for the collections we value so much today? > > Sure, some may look at it as training competition, but perhaps they should really look at it as passing on a gift of knowledge to those that will follow in the footsteps of the path they have already traveled... > > just my 2 pennies, hope everyone is having a good day! > > > Greg C. > www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com > IMCA 4682 > > > --- On Sat, 11/14/09, dave carothers wrote: > >> From: dave carothers >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD HORSEIs toMorocco >> To: "Howard Steffic" , meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 1:20 PM >> Howard, >> >> Respectfully... >> >> Reference your comment "I laugh at how the "newbies" expect >> the veterans >> with the battle scars to tell them exacty how to .... Hunt >> Meteorites or >> Sell on Ebay or send money overseas. Get off the couch and >> do your own >> legwork." >> >> Why should it bother YOU that someone should ask for for >> advice or >> assistance? Go back through the history of this list >> and you will see >> literally thousands of instances where dealers and >> professional hunters have >> freely offered advice and assistance to >> "newbies". You don't think people >> stay on this list for the ads, do you? You don't >> think people stay on this >> list for the disputes, cyber fist fights, etc, do >> you? I personally stay on >> this list (and I'm sure other do to) so we CAN ask for >> advice and assistance >> from the pros. >> >> I won't answer as to the motives or rationale of why >> dealers and >> professional hunters freely offer advice and assistance to >> "newbies", but >> suffice to say that I (and I know hundreds, maybe thousands >> of others over >> the history of this list) appreciate ALL the assistance >> offered by ANYONE on >> this list. >> >> Regards, >> >> Dave >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Howard Steffic" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 12:35 PM >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - >> BEATING A DEAD >> HORSEIs toMorocco >> >> >>> >>> My point is, and perhaps you can explain >> why......... Any meteorite >>> dealer or professional hunter should teach anybody how >> be a competitor? >>> >>> Do you think McDonalds would teach you how to run a >> restaurant? >>> >>> The logic that is used by some of these newbies is >> what is moronic. I >>> don't hunt or sell but if I did, I wouldn't expect >> anyone to teach me how >>> to be a competitor. >>> >>> Respectfully yours..... >>> >>> Howard Steffic >>> >>> >>>> From: carothersdl at gmail.com >>>> To: bencubbin at hotmail.com; >> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send >> payments - BEATING A DEAD >>>> HORSEIs toMorocco >>>> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:42:15 -0500 >>>> >>>> Howard, >>>> >>>> Your comment is moronic. This group is as much >> about posting information >>>> to >>>> assist "newbies" as anything else. You should know >> better. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Howard Steffic" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 2:17 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send >> payments - BEATING A DEAD >>>> HORSEIs toMorocco >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Is anyone else getting tired of this moronic >> discussion? >>>>> >>>>> I laugh at how the "newbies" expect the >> veterans with the battle scars >>>>> to >>>>> tell them exacty how to .... Hunt Meteorites >> or Sell on Ebay or send >>>>> money overseas. Get off the couch and do your >> own legwork. >>>>> >>>>> Now lets give this thread a proper burrial and >> get back to meteorites. >>>>> Didn't someone actually find something (like a >> meteorite not an alien) >>>>> that we can talk about? >>>>> >>>>> Howard Steffic >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:54:25 -0800 >>>>>> From: abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com >>>>>> To: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com; >> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; >>>>>> searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net >>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to >> send payments from Canada >>>>>> toMorocco >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello Brian and all, >>>>>> MoneyGram is available in Morocco, and >> Abdellah is a good person five >>>>>> stars in honesty and trust. >>>>>> My best >>>>>> Aziz >>>>>> >>>>>> --- On Fri, 11/13/09, Brian Cox >> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> From: Brian Cox >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best >> ways to send payments from Canada >>>>>>> toMorocco >>>>>>> To: "Melanie Matthews" , >>>>>>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 2:39 >> PM >>>>>>> Hi Melanie, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm glad you are on top of this and >> that you are keeping in >>>>>>> touch with the seller. I'm glad he's >> mailing back your >>>>>>> postal money order. Hopefully the >> Moneyram will work out and >>>>>>> he'll accept it as he said and you'll >> get your new >>>>>>> meteorites. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wish you all the best and hope that >> you receive some >>>>>>> really great and rare meteorites in >> the group. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Have a great day! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >> "Melanie Matthews" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: "Brian Cox" ; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:15 >> AM >>>>>>> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Best >> ways to send payments >>>>>>> from Canada toMorocco >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Brian, listers. >>>>>>> Actually it was a postal money order >> that I >>>>>>> mailed out to him (Mr. Abdellah >> Afiniss), and yes it >>>>>>> included the cost >>>>>>> of the stones plus the shipping costs. >> I asked him to mail >>>>>>> it back to >>>>>>> me and he said he did. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Once I get the slip back I'm going to >>>>>>> get back the money I put onto it and >> re-send the payment to >>>>>>> him - >>>>>>> probably via Moneygram (which he told >> me he accepts). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At first offered me a lot total of 8.5 >> kgs of chondrites >>>>>>> (all >>>>>>> unclassified),, knowing full well I >> couldn't afford all >>>>>>> that I circled >>>>>>> some stones in Paint.net (free image >> editing program >>>>>>> similar to >>>>>>> MSPaint) that I wanted in the >> photographs, emailed back to >>>>>>> him and >>>>>>> kindly asked him to send me images of >> each meteorite I >>>>>>> picked sitting >>>>>>> on the scale to show their weights... >> I then worked out the >>>>>>> prices >>>>>>> until I made the final decition on >> buying five rocks >>>>>>> together weighing >>>>>>> 837 grams.. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I said he has been very >> cooperative, and I thanks him >>>>>>> and I thank all here on the list for >> their >>>>>>> input/suggestions! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>> Melanie >>>>>>> IMCA: 2975 >>>>>>> eBay: metmel2775 >>>>>>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as >> SpaceCollector09 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Unclassified meteorites are like a box >> of chocolates... you >>>>>>> never know what you're gonna get! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> ---------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net >>>>>>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:56:13 >> -0600 >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best >> ways to send >>>>>>> payments from Canada to Morocco >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello Melanie and list, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In regards to your question of >> sending payments to >>>>>>> Morocco, I have to ask a >>>>>>>> couple of questions and others >> also mentioned they >>>>>>> weren't clear on your >>>>>>>> question since you didn't seem to >> be including >>>>>>> shipping costs. I'd like to >>>>>>>> help you out and I mean this in >> the most thoughtful >>>>>>> and kindest way >>>>>>>> possible, so please don't take it >> negatively or have >>>>>>> any anger towards me. >>>>>>>> Make sure you include shipping >> costs when you were >>>>>>> determining the total >>>>>>>> amount of the payment you need to >> send to the seller >>>>>>> and then send a check >>>>>>>> and then say you couldn't afford >> the FedEx shipping >>>>>>> costs if that is what >>>>>>>> you agreed to buy from the seller? >> You have said this >>>>>>> in the past about not >>>>>>>> having money to pay for something >> or to pay for the >>>>>>> shipping costs. It's >>>>>>>> good to ask for help if you are >> not experienced in >>>>>>> sending payments outside >>>>>>>> of Canada beyond Paypal. This >> sounds like you decided >>>>>>> to send a check for >>>>>>>> the meteorites and then were going >> to decide about a >>>>>>> payment for the >>>>>>>> "shipping" as a separate payment >> or to pay for >>>>>>> shipping later on. Is this >>>>>>>> why you stated you couldn't afford >> the FedEx shipping >>>>>>> costs after you had >>>>>>>> sent your personal Canadian paper >> check? This doesn't >>>>>>> sound right why you >>>>>>>> wouldn't determine the full amount >> due to the seller >>>>>>> for the items with >>>>>>>> shipping and or insurance and then >> send one payment >>>>>>> and later decide you >>>>>>>> couldn't afford the shipping costs >> they gave you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also, you stated you sent a "Paper >> Check" which, as I >>>>>>> am thinking is a >>>>>>>> "personal check" from your >> personal Canadian bank >>>>>>> account by what you wrote. >>>>>>>> I'm confused to why would you >> think that a personal >>>>>>> check from your Canadian >>>>>>>> bank account would be "valid" as >> you say, to a dealer >>>>>>> in Morocco, which I am >>>>>>>> sure it is valid in Canada and you >> have money in your >>>>>>> account, but most >>>>>>>> likely would not be accepted in >> Morocco or any other >>>>>>> country? You don't >>>>>>>> often hear of dealers in Asia, >> Africa, Europe or for >>>>>>> the most part any >>>>>>>> dealers in the U.S. or anywhere in >> North or South >>>>>>> America or Australia that >>>>>>>> would accept a personal Paper >> check from a bank in a >>>>>>> different country, >>>>>>>> although it may happen. A check >> from a Canadian bank >>>>>>> account or from a U.S. >>>>>>>> bank account or any personal paper >> check from any >>>>>>> other country most likely >>>>>>>> won't be accepted unless they >> verified with their bank >>>>>>> first that they could >>>>>>>> accept that check. An example >> would be if there was >>>>>>> Citibank in Canada and >>>>>>>> then Citibank in the U.S. would >> accept that check or >>>>>>> Citibank in England, >>>>>>>> etc. .I'm sure if the check was >> from a bank that had a >>>>>>> branch in that >>>>>>>> country that it would be accepted, >> but it usually >>>>>>> creates a hassle and is >>>>>>>> time consuming to stand in line or >> through an ATM. As >>>>>>> several members >>>>>>>> mentioned bank wire is the safest >> and then probably >>>>>>> FedEx payment, but >>>>>>>> sending a paper check or money >> order isn't a good idea >>>>>>> as Gary mentioned. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would like to offer a friendly >> suggestion to help >>>>>>> you out. Please make >>>>>>>> sure you discuss all the facts and >> figures with any >>>>>>> dealer/collector >>>>>>>> anywhere in the world before >> closing a deal. Remember >>>>>>> you are entering a >>>>>>>> contract with this dealer, whether >> it is on ebay or >>>>>>> through their website or >>>>>>>> through correspondence with the >> dealer. On ebay this >>>>>>> is stated as you are >>>>>>>> entering a contract so be mindful >> of this. You need to >>>>>>> finalize all costs. >>>>>>>> You need to get the full amount >> that you owe in >>>>>>> writing, email, etc. for the >>>>>>>> meteorites and any insurance and >> shipping and then you >>>>>>> need to first discuss >>>>>>>> the method of payment to that >> dealer before you send >>>>>>> any payment. I think >>>>>>>> your first mistake here was that >> it sounds as if you >>>>>>> didn't determine the >>>>>>>> full costs of the meteorites with >> shipping, then you >>>>>>> didn't ask the seller >>>>>>>> if he or she would accept a >> "Personal Paper Check from >>>>>>> another country. I >>>>>>>> think you will have much better >> luck and increase good >>>>>>> relations with >>>>>>>> dealers through online sales, ebay >> and through the >>>>>>> different meteorite lists >>>>>>>> you if you slow down and get the >> facts before making >>>>>>> purchases and payments. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As you have written on your posts >> the equivalent of >>>>>>> The Tom Hanks character >>>>>>>> from the Forest Gump movie, "Life >> is like a box of >>>>>>> chocolates." You need >>>>>>>> to stop and think that your eyes >> are bigger than your >>>>>>> stomach and stop and >>>>>>>> think of what you are wanting to >> bid on or buy first >>>>>>> and how to pay for it. >>>>>>>> There is an old saying in America >> that you may or may >>>>>>> not know in Canada. >>>>>>>> "Your eyes are bigger than your >> stomach" which roughly >>>>>>> means you saw the >>>>>>>> food on the menu and you ordered >> all that looked good >>>>>>> to eat, but your >>>>>>>> stomach wasn't big enough to eat >> it all and you became >>>>>>> very full before you >>>>>>>> could finish the meal. This is the >> same as the child >>>>>>> that fills their plate >>>>>>>> up and can't eat it all at home. >> This also goes along >>>>>>> with shopping at the >>>>>>>> store when you are hungry and >> buying too much, as in >>>>>>> buying more goodies >>>>>>>> than you needed. In this case >> looking at meteorites >>>>>>> you want to buy and then >>>>>>>> not carefully researching making a >> payment and then >>>>>>> feeling full of >>>>>>>> frustration and aggravation at how >> to make the payment >>>>>>> or what road to go >>>>>>>> down. I truly hope this helps in >> the future. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Have a great day! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best ways to send payments from >> Canada to Morocco >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi list, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please help - I mailed a payment >> to a Moroccan dealer >>>>>>> for a lot of >>>>>>>> chondrites via a paper check, he >> got it today, but he >>>>>>> told me that the banks >>>>>>>> over there don't recognize it even >> though it is >>>>>>> completely valid. I can't >>>>>>>> afford the shipping costs through >> FedEx for the lot I >>>>>>> want - which will be >>>>>>>> over $200 CND... so what other >> less expensive options >>>>>>> do you suggest? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you in advance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>>> Melanie >>>>>>>> IMCA: 2975 >>>>>>>> eBay: metmel2775 >>>>>>>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as >> SpaceCollector09 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> ______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>> Ready. Set. Get a great deal on >> Windows 7. See fantastic >>>>>>> deals on Windows 7 now >>>>>>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818= >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> ______________________________________________ >>>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >> ______________________________________________ >>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>>> >> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>> Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn >> more. >>>>> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >>>>> >> ______________________________________________ >>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>> >>> >> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in >> one place. >>> http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 From kowalski at lpl.arizona.edu Fri Nov 13 18:57:40 2009 From: kowalski at lpl.arizona.edu (Richard Kowalski) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:57:40 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Tucson TV Viewers - Wavelengths on KUAT Message-ID: <4AFDF274.5060406@lpl.arizona.edu> Hello All, For those of you who live in the Tucson area, I'd like to draw your attention to the new episode of Wavelengths, airing Sunday at 630pm on KUAT This episode will be about astronomy and will have a number of segments. Of potential interest will be the segment on the Catalina Sky Survey I believe other PBS stations in Arizona carry the program, so check your local listings. For more information and all the local air dates and times, see the program's home page http://originals.azpm.org/wavelengths/ -- Richard Kowalski Catalina Sky Survey Lunar and Planetary Laboratory University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 From spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 14 18:01:47 2009 From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com (Melanie Matthews) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:01:47 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites & Competition In-Reply-To: <4AFF0271.3040801@meteoritesusa.com> References: <4AFF0271.3040801@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: All very valid points - agree! ----------- Melanie IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 ? Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get! > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:18:09 -0800 > From: eric at meteoritesusa.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites & Competition > > Hi Listees, > > With respect to all, but without concern for offending the easily > offendable I would like to say: > > If you want to learn about meteorites ASK. > If you want to sell meteorites, then buy them, or find them, and sell them. > If you want to collect meteorites then collect them. > If you want to find them, do the research yourself and help contribute > something rather than complaining about people who won't contribute to > creating their own competition. > If you want to hunt for meteorites with a team ASK and be man (or woman) > enough to except a no and be grateful if you get a yes! > Be appreciative of the help you do receive. > Don't whine! > > If you'd like to learn to etch meteorites > If you'd like to learn how to track and find new meteorite falls > If you'd like to learn how to get others help then do the following: > > Help others in turn! > Offer to help when it's not expected! > Give! > Do your own research! > Get out there and hunt! > Get out there and make your own contacts. > Don't "expect" people just to jump in and be happy to help you. > Stop whining. > Work your ass off! > Put in the hours! > Have something to contribute! > Earn it! > > And most of all, don't make the mistake of thinking this business is > dog-eat-dog. It's like ANY industry or social group and is what you make > it. If you look at is in a certain light, that is what you will see. > > Have something to give, and do your own work, don't try piggy-backing on > others successes. People will usually not help those who don't help them > unless they are just nice people. Show respect and have admiration for > those who go out and spend the countless hours and thousands of dollars > researching the meteorites they love so much... > > Treat people the way you want to be treated and you'll garner a lot more > respect from your peers in ANY business. > > Help people and they will help you. > > Regards, > Eric Wichman > Meteorites USA > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691815 From spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 14 18:06:26 2009 From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com (Melanie Matthews) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:06:26 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] WHY HELP A DUMB ASS NEWBIE? In-Reply-To: <4244027.1258225012559.JavaMail.root@wamui-cynical.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <4244027.1258225012559.JavaMail.root@wamui-cynical.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Well said, CD. Regards ----------- Melanie IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get! ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:56:52 -0500 > From: countdeiro at earthlink.net > To: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] WHY HELP A DUMB ASS NEWBIE? > > Or, what do "newbies" mean to the ongoing collection, classification, sale and display of meteorites? > > I'm a "newbie". I haven't yet found a meteorite and apparently this is one of the qualifiers to be a "real deal" meteorite hunter/collector. I don't have a clue what other qualifiers are. What I have done, is sell my jet boat 10 months ago and spend thousands of dollars subscribing to magazines, purchasing books and field guides, buying an zoom microscope, testing equipment, chemicals, magnifying loupes and glasses, hand tools, a work bench, lighting, a locking cabinet, neomydium magnets, a metal detector, picks and shovels, back packs, desert hiking and camping clothing and equipment, maps of strewn fields, a GPS device and I traded my Ford sedan for a 4 wheel drive Jeep Cherokee. > > I found out about the LIST six months ago from a neighbor, Sonny Clary, (who gave me my first meteorite and continues to give me others..) I began reading every posting on the LIST. I set about to collect examples of the requiste types of meteorites and tektites that you "real deals" write about. After obtaining specimens of the three major classifications, I began "going for the planetary rarities and the low tkw stuff". I've collected sixty examples, as of today and maintain a list of future "have to haves". > > All of the above...I'll say it again...All..(except that Jeep)..was bought from individuals and companies I found on on the "LIST". > > That's why "newbies" on the "LIST" should be treated respectfully and encouraged to ask questions. > > Count Deiro > > > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Carl 's >>Sent: Nov 14, 2009 10:04 AM >>To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>Subject: [meteorite-list] Beating a dead horse to Morocco >> >> >> >>Hello Howard, All, >> >>You are absolutely correct. We newbies should not ask knowledgeable veterans such basic questions. We must do the legwork ourselves but never reveal how we do it to achieve our goals if someone asks. Speaking for myself I would like to thank you, Howard, for all the wonderful and thought provoking topics about meteorites you have provided in the past. Did I mention you would be a great teacher? >> >>For those not familiar with Howard's input, please type "Howard Steffic" in the search window. >> >>Howard, you asked if anyone actually found a meteorite? Please start a thread about meteorites we can all talk seriously about. You know you can't rely on newbies to do anything right. Thanks for setting us, newbies, straight! >> >>Carl >> >> >>Howard wrote: >>>...I laugh at how the "newbies" expect the veterans with the battle scars to tell >>them exacty how to .... Hunt Meteorites or Sell on Ebay or send money >>overseas. Get off the couch and do your own legwork. >> >>Now lets give this thread a proper burrial and get back to meteorites. Didn't >>someone actually find something (like a meteorite not an alien) that we can >>talk about?... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. >>http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >>______________________________________________ >>http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>Meteorite-list mailing list >>Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Friends get your Flickr, Yelp, and Digg updates when they e-mail you. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691817 From stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 14 18:27:20 2009 From: stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com (steve arnold) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:27:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] santa rosa and newbies Message-ID: <531457.13950.qm@web57807.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Good evening list.Just about ready to go see the end of the world. 2012 the movie! I just got my 51 gram slice of SANTA ROSA.The iron that bob c. is selling for $6 a gram.A steal at that price when some other people are selling for $10 a gram and up.A real treat here for this iron.Professionally cut and etched by martin cilz.A wonderful exibition of how to really etch an iron.Well done martin.When I am in tucson I look forward to meeting any newbie that will be there.Meeting these fine people is what it is all about.Eventually they become older and wiser members.No longer newbies.And like life,the world moves on.I have given away alot of meteorites to newbies who otherwise might not be able to afford these rocks from space.I have given them away to oldies.They don't mind.I'll do what ever I can to help them out.When and if you are in tucson,I cannot be missed.I'm 6'7 and stand just about over everybody,except by one of the jensen boys.81 days till tucson.Have a great evening all. ?Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! From gmhupe at htn.net Sat Nov 14 18:38:15 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:38:15 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage References: <5bb98d570911140928o3868139dy2592a85ad203f31b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3D07462DFE5B4DC2B0CA5EC596F76236@Gregor> Hi Kevin and List, I had an experience in 2005 while returning home from Morocco with a 1.6kg stone in my carry-on bag. That 'stone' later became known as "NWA 3163", a new and quite large lunar meteorite. The flight from Morocco to New York was without problems. It wasn't until I switched planes in the US from New York to Tampa Bay, FL that I had the small problem. While changing terminals in New York, I had to go through TSA screening again and they did not like the large 'rock' I had in my carry-on bag. With much discussion, showing of my credentials, saying it was a meteorite (I hoped at the time), they let me go to the gate but advised me that it would be up to the captain of the plane to decide if he would allow this object within my reach, or if I had to check it in. I met the captain upon boarding, explained what I had in my carry-on bag, along with my camera and other fragile items. It was lucky that this particular captain was interested in minerals and understood my situation. He was kind enough to take my bag and put it in the cockpit with him instead of making me check it in to be stored below decks and have the possibility of being stolen or camera gear being damaged. So the flight went well, my soon-to-known lunar meteorite flew in the cockpit with the captain, and I, well, was still stuck back in cattle-class! :-/ It is pretty much up to the discretion of the TSA agents and the flight crew as to what 'odd' objects they will allow onboard any flight. Good luck! Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Kichinka" To: Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 12:28 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage >I want to bring two iron meteorites, one a Campo of 10 kgs., the other > a Gibeon of 4 kgs., to Costa Rica from Miami on American Airlines. I > would never check them and take a chance they might disappear. I would > carry them on the plane in a small suitcase. > > > Are these prohibited items? How do dealers flying around the planet to > shows ship their rocks? > > > Thanks for any and all that have experience with this and respond. > > > Kevin Kichinka > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Sat Nov 14 18:39:08 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:39:08 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Is there a "search window" / search Option for "Meteorite Mailing List" ????? Message-ID: <20091114183908.FORG7.963200.imail@eastrmwml43> Carl wrote: In [meteorite-list] WHY HELP A DUMB ASS NEWBIE? >For those not familiar with Howard's input, please type >"Howard Steffic" in the search window. Did you write "Search Window"?? Does the Meteorite Mailing list have a "search window" / way of searching its postings? If so, could someone explain where it can be found. If not, maybe it is time that the posts on this list are made searchable using key words and author's names in some manner. Best Regards, Paul H. From jasonchadwick67 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 14 18:39:09 2009 From: jasonchadwick67 at yahoo.com (Jason Chadwick) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:39:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Spoiled Rotten... Message-ID: <687992.54724.qm@web114018.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hello, I have been a collector of meteorites since the days of Nininger and in fact, I have 100's of specimens that I personally purchased from him when I was a young man. Over the years, I have seen much change in the field and many people come and go from collecting meteorites, but never in all my years have I seen so many spoiled and ego driven people occupy the field as there are today. Spoiled brats are most here on the list... Regards Jason From eric at meteoritesusa.com Sat Nov 14 18:50:19 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:50:19 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Is there a "search window" / search Option for "Meteorite Mailing List" ????? In-Reply-To: <20091114183908.FORG7.963200.imail@eastrmwml43> References: <20091114183908.FORG7.963200.imail@eastrmwml43> Message-ID: <4AFF423B.1070108@meteoritesusa.com> Hi Paul, list, You can search the Met-List archives here: http://www.mail-archive.com/meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com/info.html Enjoy... Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA oxytropidoceras at cox.net wrote: > Carl wrote: > In [meteorite-list] WHY HELP A DUMB ASS NEWBIE? > > >> For those not familiar with Howard's input, please type >> > >"Howard Steffic" in the search window. > > Did you write "Search Window"?? > > Does the Meteorite Mailing list have a "search window" > / way of searching its postings? If so, could someone > explain where it can be found. If not, maybe it is time that > the posts on this list are made searchable using key words > and author's names in some manner. > > Best Regards, > > Paul H. > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > From grf2 at comcast.net Sat Nov 14 19:26:50 2009 From: grf2 at comcast.net (Jerry Flaherty) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:26:50 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites & Competition References: <4AFF0271.3040801@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: Do unto ..............................." Think positive But BE happily surprised at any good fortune or good turn offered or given The only DUMB question is the one not asked -------------------------------------------------- From: "Meteorites USA" Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 2:18 PM To: Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites & Competition > Hi Listees, > > With respect to all, but without concern for offending the easily > offendable I would like to say: > > If you want to learn about meteorites ASK. > If you want to sell meteorites, then buy them, or find them, and sell > them. > If you want to collect meteorites then collect them. > If you want to find them, do the research yourself and help contribute > something rather than complaining about people who won't contribute to > creating their own competition. > If you want to hunt for meteorites with a team ASK and be man (or woman) > enough to except a no and be grateful if you get a yes! > Be appreciative of the help you do receive. > Don't whine! > > If you'd like to learn to etch meteorites > If you'd like to learn how to track and find new meteorite falls > If you'd like to learn how to get others help then do the following: > > Help others in turn! > Offer to help when it's not expected! > Give! > Do your own research! > Get out there and hunt! > Get out there and make your own contacts. > Don't "expect" people just to jump in and be happy to help you. > Stop whining. > Work your ass off! > Put in the hours! > Have something to contribute! > Earn it! > > And most of all, don't make the mistake of thinking this business is > dog-eat-dog. It's like ANY industry or social group and is what you make > it. If you look at is in a certain light, that is what you will see. > > Have something to give, and do your own work, don't try piggy-backing on > others successes. People will usually not help those who don't help them > unless they are just nice people. Show respect and have admiration for > those who go out and spend the countless hours and thousands of dollars > researching the meteorites they love so much... > > Treat people the way you want to be treated and you'll garner a lot more > respect from your peers in ANY business. > > Help people and they will help you. > > Regards, > Eric Wichman > Meteorites USA > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From countdeiro at earthlink.net Sat Nov 14 20:32:04 2009 From: countdeiro at earthlink.net (countdeiro at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:32:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: RE: WHY HELP A DUMB ASS NEWBIE? Message-ID: <8465125.1258248724571.JavaMail.root@wamui-cynical.atl.sa.earthlink.net> -----Forwarded Message----- >From: countdeiro at earthlink.net >Sent: Nov 14, 2009 8:30 PM >To: Howard Steffic >Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] WHY HELP A DUMB ASS NEWBIE? > >Yes. I am Count Guido Roberto Deiro. Perillustrious (Lord) of Precorsa and Arya, Knight Grand Cross of Justice and Grand Chancellor of the Sovereign Dynastic Hospitaller Order of St. John KOM, Knight Grand Cross of Justice of the Sovereign Military Order of St. George, Guardia d'Honore d'Italia e Nobile de Deiro. All that, and a twenty dollar bill, will usually get one a good seating in a fine restaurant. > >Seriously, if your interested, access www.guidodeiro.com and look under "contents" and "marriages" for information and photos. The site was set up by City University of New York and is about my father's career and life...but I slid in there too. > >Best regards, > >Count Deiro (newbie) > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Howard Steffic >>Sent: Nov 14, 2009 5:26 PM >>To: countdeiro at earthlink.net >>Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] WHY HELP A DUMB ASS NEWBIE? >> >> >>Are you a real count? >> >> >> >>Howard Steffic >> >> >> >> >> >>---------------------------------------- >>> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:56:52 -0500 >>> From: countdeiro at earthlink.net >>> To: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] WHY HELP A DUMB ASS NEWBIE? >>> >>> Or, what do "newbies" mean to the ongoing collection, classification, sale and display of meteorites? >>> >>> I'm a "newbie". I haven't yet found a meteorite and apparently this is one of the qualifiers to be a "real deal" meteorite hunter/collector. I don't have a clue what other qualifiers are. What I have done, is sell my jet boat 10 months ago and spend thousands of dollars subscribing to magazines, purchasing books and field guides, buying an zoom microscope, testing equipment, chemicals, magnifying loupes and glasses, hand tools, a work bench, lighting, a locking cabinet, neomydium magnets, a metal detector, picks and shovels, back packs, desert hiking and camping clothing and equipment, maps of strewn fields, a GPS device and I traded my Ford sedan for a 4 wheel drive Jeep Cherokee. >>> >>> I found out about the LIST six months ago from a neighbor, Sonny Clary, (who gave me my first meteorite and continues to give me others..) I began reading every posting on the LIST. I set about to collect examples of the requiste types of meteorites and tektites that you "real deals" write about. After obtaining specimens of the three major classifications, I began "going for the planetary rarities and the low tkw stuff". I've collected sixty examples, as of today and maintain a list of future "have to haves". >>> >>> All of the above...I'll say it again...All..(except that Jeep)..was bought from individuals and companies I found on on the "LIST". >>> >>> That's why "newbies" on the "LIST" should be treated respectfully and encouraged to ask questions. >>> >>> Count Deiro >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>>From: Carl 's >>>>Sent: Nov 14, 2009 10:04 AM >>>>To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>Subject: [meteorite-list] Beating a dead horse to Morocco >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Hello Howard, All, >>>> >>>>You are absolutely correct. We newbies should not ask knowledgeable veterans such basic questions. We must do the legwork ourselves but never reveal how we do it to achieve our goals if someone asks. Speaking for myself I would like to thank you, Howard, for all the wonderful and thought provoking topics about meteorites you have provided in the past. Did I mention you would be a great teacher? >>>> >>>>For those not familiar with Howard's input, please type "Howard Steffic" in the search window. >>>> >>>>Howard, you asked if anyone actually found a meteorite? Please start a thread about meteorites we can all talk seriously about. You know you can't rely on newbies to do anything right. Thanks for setting us, newbies, straight! >>>> >>>>Carl >>>> >>>> >>>>Howard wrote: >>>>>...I laugh at how the "newbies" expect the veterans with the battle scars to tell >>>>them exacty how to .... Hunt Meteorites or Sell on Ebay or send money >>>>overseas. Get off the couch and do your own legwork. >>>> >>>>Now lets give this thread a proper burrial and get back to meteorites. Didn't >>>>someone actually find something (like a meteorite not an alien) that we can >>>>talk about?... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_________________________________________________________________ >>>>Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. >>>>http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >>>>______________________________________________ >>>>http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. >>http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From countdeiro at earthlink.net Sat Nov 14 21:05:03 2009 From: countdeiro at earthlink.net (countdeiro at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 21:05:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meteorite-list] santa rosa and newbies Message-ID: <18542400.1258250704058.JavaMail.root@wamui-cynical.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi Steve and List, I, for one, will see you all in Tucson so I may personally thank Steve for the freebies and the List for your posts. Always interesting ...if not controversial. Count Deiro (newbie) -----Original Message----- >From: steve arnold >Sent: Nov 14, 2009 6:27 PM >To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >Subject: [meteorite-list] santa rosa and newbies > >Good evening list.Just about ready to go see the end of the world. 2012 the movie! I just got my 51 gram slice of SANTA ROSA.The iron that bob c. is selling for $6 a gram.A steal at that price when some other people are selling for $10 a gram and up.A real treat here for this iron.Professionally cut and etched by martin cilz.A wonderful exibition of how to really etch an iron.Well done martin.When I am in tucson I look forward to meeting any newbie that will be there.Meeting these fine people is what it is all about.Eventually they become older and wiser members.No longer newbies.And like life,the world moves on.I have given away alot of meteorites to newbies who otherwise might not be able to afford these rocks from space.I have given them away to oldies.They don't mind.I'll do what ever I can to help them out.When and if you are in tucson,I cannot be missed.I'm 6'7 and stand just about over everybody,except by one of the jensen boys.81 days till > tucson.Have a great evening all. >?Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! >______________________________________________ >http://www.meteoritecentral.com >Meteorite-list mailing list >Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From epgrondine at yahoo.com Sat Nov 14 21:20:11 2009 From: epgrondine at yahoo.com (E.P. Grondine) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:20:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Tunguska rates Message-ID: <666459.24129.qm@web36906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Arnauld, all, The problem is that Tunguska type blasts have been occuring recently (for the last 5,000 years) at a rate of 1 per 100 years, not 1 per 1,000. Whether this represents a short term phenonmenon or the long term rate is not currently known. I used to put together catalogues of "known and suspected impacts", you may want to google that, and if you have not bought a copy of "Man and Impact in the Americas" yet, well, it is the best available recent impact rate data for the Americas. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas From astroroks at hotmail.com Sat Nov 14 22:17:59 2009 From: astroroks at hotmail.com (Dennis Miller) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 21:17:59 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] (no subject) Message-ID: _Meteorite Bashing Dictionary_____ New-Bie [Noo-Bee, Nyoo-] -noun One who is inexperienced; one who's collection is valued less that one million dollars; an enthusiast who has not been published, in the meteorite world; one who's name has not made Cambridge Meteorite Encyclopedia; one who admits to not having all the answers and have to ask the "Experts' seemingly "dumb" questions. How else does one escape the dreaded label "Newbie" and enter the realm of "expert" or "I can stand alone, for I know everything"! And believe me, years of service to the hobby means little. Dennis _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 From STARSANDSCOPES at aol.com Sat Nov 14 22:21:10 2009 From: STARSANDSCOPES at aol.com (STARSANDSCOPES at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 22:21:10 EST Subject: [meteorite-list] Barred Chondrule Fans JaH 055 incident light micrograph gallery update Message-ID: Hi List, Last week I emailed the list about a SaU 001 chondrule shot that I wanted to send in full resolution to anyone who wanted it. There were over 40 takers but unfortunately many had Internet provider limits on file size so they couldn't get the full size file. I had some beautiful high resolution shots of this JaH 055 chondrule that you need to se to appreciate. They are not using a thin section and they are in true color. Really what they look like way up close. I wanted to send a full size file again but the last try didn't work out so well. Paul (Meteorite Times and Meteorite Exchange) helped out. He just set up a new set of JaH 055 barred chondrule reflected light images on my gallery and posted one full size in image of the month. You can down load it off the site with out dealing with email size limits! Both can be found in my gallery http://www.meteorite.com/meteorite-gallery/meteorites-feat_frame.htm Select Features on the top tab and the image of the month or barred chondrule. While you are there, I just put up a set of Al Huqf 007 taken in transmitted cross polarized light. These are the colorful thin section Xpol shots. Some are quite abstract but beautiful (at least I think so). Please check them out. Thanks Tom Phillips From dave at fallingrocks.com Sat Nov 14 22:27:55 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 22:27:55 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Barred Chondrule Fans JaH 055 incident lightmicrograph gallery update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tom, One word: spectacular. Dave www.fallingrocks.com -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of STARSANDSCOPES at aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 10:21 PM To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Barred Chondrule Fans JaH 055 incident lightmicrograph gallery update Hi List, Last week I emailed the list about a SaU 001 chondrule shot that I wanted to send in full resolution to anyone who wanted it. There were over 40 takers but unfortunately many had Internet provider limits on file size so they couldn't get the full size file. I had some beautiful high resolution shots of this JaH 055 chondrule that you need to se to appreciate. They are not using a thin section and they are in true color. Really what they look like way up close. I wanted to send a full size file again but the last try didn't work out so well. Paul (Meteorite Times and Meteorite Exchange) helped out. He just set up a new set of JaH 055 barred chondrule reflected light images on my gallery and posted one full size in image of the month. You can down load it off the site with out dealing with email size limits! Both can be found in my gallery http://www.meteorite.com/meteorite-gallery/meteorites-feat_frame.htm Select Features on the top tab and the image of the month or barred chondrule. While you are there, I just put up a set of Al Huqf 007 taken in transmitted cross polarized light. These are the colorful thin section Xpol shots. Some are quite abstract but beautiful (at least I think so). Please check them out. Thanks Tom Phillips ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 14 23:56:31 2009 From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com (Melanie Matthews) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:56:31 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I could care less which I fall under! I'm here to ask and learn, at times share share my own kowledge get in touch with Moroccan dealers and to make some friends who are in the hobby.. ----------- Melanie IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get! ---------------------------------------- > From: astroroks at hotmail.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 21:17:59 -0600 > Subject: [meteorite-list] (no subject) > > > > _Meteorite Bashing Dictionary_____ > > New-Bie [Noo-Bee, Nyoo-] -noun > > One who is inexperienced; one who's collection is valued > less that one million dollars; an enthusiast who has not > been published, in the meteorite world; one who's name has > not made Cambridge Meteorite Encyclopedia; one who admits to > not having all the answers and have to ask the "Experts' > seemingly "dumb" questions. > > > How else does one escape the dreaded label "Newbie" and enter > the realm of "expert" or "I can stand alone, for I know everything"! > And believe me, years of service to the hobby means little. > > Dennis > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691815 From pshugar at clearwire.net Sun Nov 15 00:41:16 2009 From: pshugar at clearwire.net (Pete Shugar) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:41:16 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Re Newbies Message-ID: I have sat by and watched a lot of venom be injected into this good list. It exists to further the hobby and dealers that supply the hobby with high grade honest new meteorites so we can spend our dwindling cash on them to get our daily fix. Howard, it is plain to see that you are out for only #1 (you) so get off your high hobby horse and leave those of us who are trying to learn from those who would help us to further our knowledge, alone. I am so glad that there are those that do help us, both of the Hupe's, Mike B, Gary Fujihara, Dave G, Mike G, Rob Wesel, even Mike Farmer as gruff as he is still takes the time to throw a bone of knowledge to the newbie, Michael Cottingham. I'm quite sure I have left out about 30 or so of people of outstanding character, please accept my apologies. Recently, we have lost some of the really big guns, Norton, Wallace and several others that I can't remember their names right this second. And then there are those that have left the list because of the insistent on argueing first foremost and always with someone either learning from someone that is disliked by another list member. GO AWAY, WE DON'T NEED ARGUMENTIVE PEOPLE, WE NEED HELP, THIS IS WHY WE ASK FOR HELP. In a nutshell, if your comment isn't helpful, please (how can I say this kindly) SHUT UP. Pete IMCA 1733 From pgspears at cox.net Sun Nov 15 00:59:25 2009 From: pgspears at cox.net (Paul G. Spears) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 22:59:25 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Desert glass purchase Message-ID: <5D4CCB4AFB9F4A7B895D7FA016B4BF03@GrandpasNetbook> Hi, all: I am looking for some desert glass. Single piece of 200 grams m/l, good quality, in "as-found" condition. Please include shipping costs in price. Please respond off-line, with pics if you have them now or can provide them later. I will deal with private parties or with any dealers who are supportive of newbies. I have checked out the pieces on eBay. Let me know if you are currently advertising a piece you are offering for sale there and I will check out that picture and description. Keep looking up! Paul G. Spears IMCA #3272 From parkforestmet at hotmail.com Sun Nov 15 01:43:42 2009 From: parkforestmet at hotmail.com (bill kies) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 00:43:42 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Speaking from the ducks point of view. I, as I'm sure many hundreds of others, joined this list to learn from the masters as well as pick up info on recent falls. Well, I sure got a lesson. I don't expect jack anymore and I assure you that I will never share meteorite knowledge of any kind on this list. It's a damn shame. > From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com > To: astroroks at hotmail.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:56:31 -0800 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] (no subject) > > > I could care less which I fall under! I'm here to ask and learn, at times share share my own kowledge get in touch with Moroccan dealers and to make some friends who are in the hobby.. > > ----------- > Melanie > IMCA: 2975 > eBay: metmel2775 > Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 > > Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get! > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------- >> From: astroroks at hotmail.com >> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 21:17:59 -0600 >> Subject: [meteorite-list] (no subject) >> >> >> >> _Meteorite Bashing Dictionary_____ >> >> New-Bie [Noo-Bee, Nyoo-] -noun >> >> One who is inexperienced; one who's collection is valued >> less that one million dollars; an enthusiast who has not >> been published, in the meteorite world; one who's name has >> not made Cambridge Meteorite Encyclopedia; one who admits to >> not having all the answers and have to ask the "Experts' >> seemingly "dumb" questions. >> >> >> How else does one escape the dreaded label "Newbie" and enter >> the realm of "expert" or "I can stand alone, for I know everything"! >> And believe me, years of service to the hobby means little. >> >> Dennis >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. >> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691815 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 From eric at meteoritesusa.com Sun Nov 15 02:05:37 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:05:37 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Dawn's Re-Entry Into Asteroid Belt Message-ID: <4AFFA841.20301@meteoritesusa.com> On November 13, Dawn will enter the asteroid belt to stay as its silent flight takes it past 1.666 AU from the Sun. Dawn will remain in the belt for the rest of its mission and well beyond. It will become a permanent inhabitant of that part of the solar system, the first emissary from Earth to take up residence in the main asteroid belt. http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/ Question: Is the spacecraft at risk in the asteroid belt? Since the Dawn mission is to fly "through" the asteroid belt, is there any concern it will be hit and destroyed by micrometeorites? Answer: More precisely, Dawn flies IN the asteroid belt, so it has a very similar speed to the material around it. So, the material is a little less dangerous that you might assume. But, most importantly, the small meteoroids are far between and the chance of hitting one if you are the size of Dawn is small (but not totally negligible). We, therefore, are concerned and will avoid any region where we think there might be higher than usual danger. Answer provided by Chris Russell, Principal Investigator for the Dawn mission http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/features.cfm?feature=2361 Dawn spacecraft is to reconnoiter Vesta and Ceres, the asteroid belt's two most massive inhabitants -- the asteroid Vesta and dwarf planet Ceres. Enjoy... Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA From spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 15 02:22:34 2009 From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com (Melanie Matthews) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:22:34 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Re Newbies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Always out to be "#1" = immaturity. I'd say ignore their petty antics and continue doing what ya gotta do LOL. Regards ----------- Melanie IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get! ---------------------------------------- > From: pshugar at clearwire.net > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:41:16 -0600 > Subject: [meteorite-list] Re Newbies > > I have sat by and watched a lot of venom be injected into this good list. > It exists to further the hobby and dealers that supply the hobby with high > grade > honest new meteorites so we can spend our dwindling cash on them to get our > daily fix. > > Howard, it is plain to see that you are out for only #1 (you) so get off > your > high hobby horse and leave those of us who are trying to learn from those > who would help us to further our knowledge, alone. > > I am so glad that there are those that do help us, both of the Hupe's, Mike > B, > Gary Fujihara, Dave G, Mike G, Rob Wesel, even Mike Farmer as gruff as he is > still takes the time to throw a bone of knowledge to the newbie, Michael > Cottingham. > I'm quite sure I have left out about 30 or so of people of outstanding > character, please > accept my apologies. > > Recently, we have lost some of the really big guns, Norton, Wallace and > several others > that I can't remember their names right this second. > > And then there are those that have left the list because of the insistent on > argueing > first foremost and always with someone either learning from someone that is > disliked by > another list member. > > GO AWAY, WE DON'T NEED ARGUMENTIVE PEOPLE, WE NEED HELP, > THIS IS WHY WE ASK FOR HELP. > > In a nutshell, if your comment isn't helpful, please (how can I say this > kindly) > SHUT UP. > Pete IMCA 1733 > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Eligible CDN College & University students can upgrade to Windows 7 before Jan 3 for only $39.99. Upgrade now! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691819 From mlblood at cox.net Sun Nov 15 03:59:09 2009 From: mlblood at cox.net (Michael Blood) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 00:59:09 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Don't learn anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Bill, I was flabbergasted when I read your post (though I must admit I have not read all the posts on this thread)...I wondered if you were Getting the same list posts I get..... I learn LOTS of stuff on the list EVERY DAY. For instance, the following are just SOME of the things I learn On the list on a regular basis: 1 - new falls 2 - URLs of stories of new falls - and some old ones with "new" info. 3 - URLs of videos of bolides 4 - What the opinions are (and why) who prefers what kind of GPS unite 5 - " ..............metal detectors 6 - " ...............meteorite cutting methods 7 - new books coming out 8 - who went to what new fall and what "stories" took place 9 - what countries are playing the "all the meteorites that fell in OUR country 'belong' to us only" game. 10 - When interesting shows are going to appear on TV - (like "The Meteorite Men") 11 through SEVERAL HUNDRED OTHER THINGS. So, what list are YOU reading? BTW, your post says "Bill Kies".... Is that the same person as Bill Kieskowski? I really am sorry to hear of your embittered heart. Hope you get better soon. Sincerely, Michael On 11/14/09 10:43 PM, "bill kies" wrote: > Speaking from the ducks point of view. I, as I'm sure many hundreds of others, > joined this list to learn from the masters as well as pick up info on recent > falls. Well, I sure got a lesson. I don't expect jack anymore and I assure you > that I will never share meteorite knowledge of any kind on this list. It's a > damn shame. > From tricottetcoll at live.com Sun Nov 15 04:01:36 2009 From: tricottetcoll at live.com (The Tricottet Collection) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 09:01:36 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Tunguska rates In-Reply-To: <666459.24129.qm@web36906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <666459.24129.qm@web36906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi E.P. et al., actually, what the journalist of BI wrote is inaccurate. You can read in our report that we used 1 per 1000 years as our preferred value, following the most up-to-date frequency-size distribution [Brown et al, 2002], but we also tested 1 per 200 years [Shoemaker, 1983] and noted that the rate could be far higher if hypotheses from geomythology and related were to be verified. Best, ArnaudM > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:20:11 -0800 > From: epgrondine at yahoo.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Tunguska rates > > Hi Arnauld, all, > > The problem is that Tunguska type blasts have been occuring recently (for the last 5,000 years) at a rate of 1 per 100 years, not 1 per 1,000. Whether this represents a short term phenonmenon or the long term rate is not currently known. > > I used to put together catalogues of "known and suspected impacts", you may want to google that, and if you have not bought a copy of "Man and Impact in the Americas" yet, well, it is the best available recent impact rate data for the Americas. > > E.P. Grondine > Man and Impact in the Americas > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 From bernd.pauli at paulinet.de Sun Nov 15 06:25:47 2009 From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de (bernd.pauli at paulinet.de) Date: 15 Nov 2009 11:25:47 UT Subject: [meteorite-list] Question regarding Vaca Muerta Strewnfield Message-ID: Hello Felipe and List, Your online coordinates online for Vaca Muerta (25? 45' S / 70? 30' W) look good because there is an article in Meteoritics [PEDERSEN H. et al. (1992) Vaca Muerta mesosiderite strewnfield (Meteoritics 27-2, 1992, 126-135)] and on page 128 the authors write: "In Table 1 and Fig. 2, we give the (x,y) coordinates of each mass relative to the most distant large mass, VM 5 (= 557 kg), which is at 25? 50' S, 70? 23' W. Using the method of least squares (minimizing orthogonal distance) and giving equal weight to each of the 80 masses, we have determined the azimuth of the strewnfield to be 109? East of north. The fall zone is 700-800 m above sea level." Best of luck for your Vaca Muerta hunt, Bernd From bernd.pauli at paulinet.de Sun Nov 15 06:45:51 2009 From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de (bernd.pauli at paulinet.de) Date: 15 Nov 2009 11:45:51 UT Subject: [meteorite-list] Barred Chondrule Fans JaH 055 incident light micrograph gallery update Message-ID: Hello Tom and List, Stunning, breathtaking pictures, as usual! I like the very first shot best - the one which shows the BO chondrule and the "dislocated" fragment of this barred chondrule. Often the missing part of a chondrule cannot be found in the same part of the hand sample but here it is still there, quite close but definitely "torn" or "ripped" away from the rest of the chondrule. You also wrote: "The microscope I use is an *aus* Jena Neophot 21 metallurgical microscope" You don't need the *aus* because this German preposition only says that your microscope comes *from* the German town the name of which is "Jena" - famous for its quality optics! Best Sunday wishes from Germany, Bernd From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Sun Nov 15 08:29:12 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:29:12 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Don't learn anything? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000e01ca65f7$9f3d4280$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> UUUUH, what's going on? Sometimes I can't believe, what I'm reading here. It's maybe somewhat dangerous for me to write, cause in a way I liked the comment of Jason Chadwick.. Folks, I wish so badly to have a time machine to demote you all only 15 or 20 years back in time. No internet, no list, no fora, no books, no access to meteorites, no dealers, no fellow collectors, no news, no information, no pictures - only super-slow-motion conversation with the small handful of meteorite people, existing. NOW YOU HAVE IT ALL . Btw. Competition has also a good side, or shall we write again 20,000$ a gram on the lunars, 1000$ on the Acaps, 400$ on the howardites, 2$ on the rotten desert chondrites.... ?? Very strange, that debate, very very strange. Martin From stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 15 09:19:50 2009 From: stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com (steve arnold) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 06:19:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] (AD) 2 meteorites forsale Message-ID: <751333.1543.qm@web57808.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi list.Just another quick blurb here.I have 2 meteorites forsale.One of them is the JULY 3RD, 2009 SPACE ROCKS OF THE DAY.It is a 78.2 gram brecciated unclassified stone endcut.It originally came from the meteorites usa meteorite collection.It is highly brecciated and is a beauty. $350 takes it home.I also have a 240 gram IMPACT MELT BRECCIA unclassified stone endcut originally from the dean bessy meteorite collection.$300 will take it home.Free shipping solar system wide.Offlist please and pics upon request or go to space rocks of the for july to see. ?Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! From countdeiro at earthlink.net Sun Nov 15 10:08:34 2009 From: countdeiro at earthlink.net (countdeiro at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:08:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Dawn's Re-Entry Into Asteroid Belt Message-ID: <32383464.1258297714585.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Now..this is what were talking about. The LIST at it's best. Dispensing relative information that many listees wouldn't have thought of...or wouldn't have had the answer to if they did. And like Melanie says " you don't always know what you'll get". The next post could require one to hit the "papers" and "publications" to comprehend. The depth of the metoritical knowledge of the individuals who post on this List is unparalleled. What a resource! The List is a lecture, a symposium, an announcement, a discussion, an advertisement, a communication, a report, a sharing....and it's free! Best regards and good hunting, Count Deiro -----Original Message----- >From: Meteorites USA >Sent: Nov 15, 2009 2:05 AM >To: "meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com" >Subject: [meteorite-list] Dawn's Re-Entry Into Asteroid Belt > > > >On November 13, Dawn will enter the asteroid belt to stay as its silent >flight takes it past 1.666 AU from the Sun. Dawn will remain in the belt >for the rest of its mission and well beyond. It will become a permanent >inhabitant of that part of the solar system, the first emissary from Earth >to take up residence in the main asteroid belt. http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/ > >Question: Is the spacecraft at risk in the asteroid belt? Since the Dawn >mission is to fly "through" the asteroid belt, is there any concern it >will be hit and destroyed by micrometeorites? > >Answer: More precisely, Dawn flies IN the asteroid belt, so it has a >very similar speed to the material around it. So, the material is a >little less dangerous that you might assume. But, most importantly, the >small meteoroids are far between and the chance of hitting one if you >are the size of Dawn is small (but not totally negligible). We, >therefore, are concerned and will avoid any region where we think there >might be higher than usual danger. Answer provided by Chris Russell, >Principal Investigator for the Dawn mission > >http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/features.cfm?feature=2361 >Dawn spacecraft is to reconnoiter Vesta and Ceres, the asteroid belt's >two most massive inhabitants -- the asteroid Vesta and dwarf planet Ceres. > >Enjoy... > >Regards, >Eric Wichman >Meteorites USA >______________________________________________ >http://www.meteoritecentral.com >Meteorite-list mailing list >Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From minador at yahoo.com Sun Nov 15 10:25:08 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 07:25:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: RE: WHY HELP A DUMB A$$ N3W8IE? Message-ID: <65245.88676.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Oops, I made 3 posts before bed, but my email got out of plain text... --- On Sat, 11/14/09, Mark Bowling wrote: > From: Mark Bowling > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: RE: WHY HELP A DUMB A$$ N3W8IE? > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, countdeiro at earthlink.net > Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 8:35 PM > One, two, three cookies, ha ha ha > (I guess the google sesame themes are still in my > mind...) > ? > Anyways, good?reply Count (regarding > newbies).? I enjoy the questions from newbies; a > diverse membership at all levels makes a healthy > hobby.? And most disagreements/annoying posts usually > boil down to one solution: the delete key.? Read the > initial post or two, and then read on or delete the > remainder.? I haven't followed the Morocco thread > b/c my interests lie in local hunting rather than becoming a > dealer/importer. > ? > Nobody should be expected to reveal trade secrets, but > it never hurts to shake the trees to see what falls out (on > or OFF LIST).? Somebody experienced may spark on then > and take them under their wing.? I have met a lot of > wonderful friends on this list I'd bend over backwards > to assist. > ? > Clear skies and?bolide dreams (but preferable > bolide realities) - to ALL! > Mark B. (more of a Serf than a Count)? ;-) > Vail, AZ (magical land of meteorites, minerals and > headframes!) > > --- On Sat, 11/14/09, countdeiro at earthlink.net > wrote: > > > From: countdeiro at earthlink.net > > Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: RE: WHY HELP A > DUMB ASS NEWBIE? > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 6:32 PM > > > > > -----Forwarded Message----- > >From: countdeiro at earthlink.net > >Sent: Nov 14, 2009 8:30 PM > >To: Howard Steffic > >Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] WHY HELP A DUMB ASS > NEWBIE? > > > >Yes. I am Count Guido Roberto Deiro. Perillustrious > (Lord) of Precorsa and Arya, Knight Grand Cross of Justice > and Grand Chancellor of the Sovereign Dynastic Hospitaller > Order of St. John KOM, Knight Grand Cross of Justice of the > Sovereign Military Order of St. George, Guardia d'Honore > d'Italia e Nobile de Deiro. All that, and a twenty > dollar bill, will usually get one a good seating in a fine > restaurant. > > > >Seriously, if your interested, > access www.guidodeiro.com and look under > "contents" and "marriages" for > information and photos. The site was set up by City > University of New York and is about my father's career > and life...but I slid in there too. > > > >Best regards, > > > >Count Deiro (newbie) > > > >-----Original Message----- > >>From: Howard Steffic > >>Sent: Nov 14, 2009 5:26 PM > >>To: countdeiro at earthlink.net > >>Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] WHY HELP A DUMB ASS > NEWBIE? > >> > >> > >>Are you a real count? > >> > >> > >> > >>Howard > Steffic > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>---------------------------------------- > >>> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:56:52 -0500 > >>> From: countdeiro at earthlink.net > >>> To: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com; > meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] WHY HELP A DUMB > ASS NEWBIE? > >>> > >>> Or, what do "newbies" mean to the > ongoing collection, classification, sale and display of > meteorites? > >>> > >>> I'm a "newbie". I > haven't yet found a meteorite and apparently this is > one of the qualifiers to be a "real deal" > meteorite hunter/collector. I don't have a clue what > other qualifiers are. What I have done, is sell my jet boat > 10 months ago and spend thousands of dollars subscribing to > magazines, purchasing books and field guides, buying an zoom > microscope, testing equipment, chemicals, magnifying loupes > and glasses, hand tools, a work bench, lighting, a locking > cabinet, neomydium magnets, a metal detector, picks and > shovels, back packs, desert hiking and camping clothing and > equipment, maps of strewn fields, a GPS device and I traded > my Ford sedan for a 4 wheel drive Jeep Cherokee. > >>> > >>> I found out about the LIST six months ago from > a neighbor, Sonny Clary, (who gave me my first meteorite and > continues to give me others..) I began reading every posting > on the LIST. I set about to collect examples of the requiste > types of meteorites and tektites > that you "real deals" write about. After > obtaining specimens of the three major classifications, I > began "going for the planetary rarities and the low tkw > stuff". I've collected sixty examples, as of today > and maintain a list of future "have to haves". > >>> > >>> All of the above...I'll say it > again...All..(except that Jeep)..was bought from individuals > and companies I found on on the "LIST". > >>> > >>> That's why "newbies" on the > "LIST" should be treated respectfully and > encouraged to ask questions. > >>> > >>> Count Deiro > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>From: Carl 's > >>>>Sent: Nov 14, 2009 10:04 AM > >>>>To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >>>>Subject: [meteorite-list] Beating a dead > horse to Morocco > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>Hello Howard, All, > >>>> > >>>>You are absolutely correct. We newbies > should not ask knowledgeable veterans such basic questions. > We must do the legwork ourselves but never reveal how we do > it to achieve our goals if someone asks. Speaking for myself > I would like to thank you, Howard, for all the wonderful and > thought provoking topics about meteorites you have provided > in the past. Did I mention you would be a great teacher? > >>>> > >>>>For those not familiar with Howard's > input, please type "Howard Steffic" in the search > window. > >>>> > >>>>Howard, you asked if anyone actually found > a meteorite? Please start a thread about > meteorites we can all talk seriously about. You know you > can't rely on newbies to do anything right. Thanks for > setting us, newbies, straight! > >>>> > >>>>Carl > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>Howard wrote: > >>>>>...I laugh at how the > "newbies" expect the veterans with the battle > scars to tell > >>>>them exacty how to .... Hunt Meteorites or > Sell on Ebay or send money > >>>>overseas. Get off the couch and do your own > legwork. > >>>> > >>>>Now lets give this thread a proper burrial > and get back to meteorites. Didn't > >>>>someone actually find something (like a > meteorite not an alien) that we can > >>>>talk > about?... > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>_________________________________________________________________ > >>>>Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn > more. > >>>>http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 > >>>>______________________________________________ > >>>>http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >>>>Meteorite-list mailing list > >>>>Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >>>>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >>> > >>> > ______________________________________________ > >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ??? > ???????? > ?????? ??? > ? > >>_________________________________________________________________ > >>Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM > protection. > >>http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From minador at yahoo.com Sun Nov 15 10:27:06 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 07:27:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] (no subject) Message-ID: <276143.88676.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> At least they don't act like the NOOBS on the list.?;-) > --- On Sat, 11/14/09, Dennis Miller > wrote: > > From: Dennis Miller > Subject: [meteorite-list] (no subject) > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 8:17 PM > > _Meteorite Bashing Dictionary_____ > > New-Bie? [Noo-Bee, Nyoo-] -noun > > ? One who is inexperienced; one who's collection > is valued > ? less that one million dollars; an enthusiast who has > not > ? been published, in the meteorite world; one > who's name has > ? not made Cambridge Meteorite Encyclopedia; one who > admits to > ? not having all the answers and have to ask the > "Experts' > ? seemingly? "dumb" questions. > > > How else does one escape the dreaded label > "Newbie" and enter > the realm of "expert" or "I can stand alone, > for I know everything"! > And believe me, years of service to the hobby means > little. > > Dennis? > > ?????? > ???????? > ?????? ??? > ? > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: > I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock > star. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From minador at yahoo.com Sun Nov 15 10:30:23 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 07:30:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & Competition) Message-ID: <538019.80725.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > From: Mark Bowling > Subject: Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & Competition) > To: "Adam" , "Adam Hupe" > Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 11:16 PM Dear List, I think Adam has some great points. I think people forget how rare these things are. Prices often don't reflect that. I think people are more likely to give advice when a "newbie" asks something like, I've ruined several slices trying to do such & such, I've tried A and B, what else should I do. it shows that they're paying their dues, but need a little advice which they can probably absorb quickly, saving an "expert's" time. The sad thing is that a few slices/specimens have been ruined (maybe from "cheap, common NWA" material, but very rare, finite material nonetheless). How do you balance the protection of trade secrets and your business vs. the ideal of preserving this wonderful material? I suppose there are techniques which are common in parallel fields like lapidary, which one can assume they'll figure it out the hard way (both hard on their time/wallet but also hard on meteorites). I would say one should be somewhat eager to help in that case, since keeping quiet won't deter them but only make possible the damage of more specimens. However, offering help takes precious time, busy people lack. What about the possibility of a guidebook highlighting some of these "common" things? The first person(s) with the ability to write said tome could profit from the book sales, and many novices would benefit from the tips. Sensitive trade secrets could be mentioned by name and the disclaimer given that you will have to experiment at the peril of your collection and finances - or maybe find a willing mentor. The book would have to be relatively comprehensive - covering the common things which can be found in a lapidary book, but from a meteorite point of view (there might be possibility of tips like "it's wise to practice this technique using sandstone(?) because it approximates XYZ meteorites very well, and you can rest assured that your learning curve isn't busting the bank"). And it would also cover the meteorites specific topics like chemicals/oils to avoid, etc. Maybe some explanations of the different textures you will encounter in meteorites. Maybe a section on thin sections, epoxy plugs, and ? There might be room for general things like an explanation meteorite classifications, collecting strategies, strategies for documenting a collection of specimens, a list of common vendors, etc. There are lots of interesting, useful things that could be added that I can't imagine. Of course, you would have to have environmental, health and safety concerns highlighted and repeated throughout the book! I know this may sound a little out in left field, but it would help with the overall conservation of specimens and/or reduce poor, albeit, harmless results (as well as be an opportunity to make some money). Could it result in increased completion? Probably so, but those rushing head long into the wilderness probably can't be stopped anyway. And those who are inspired by the book may take a stab at it, but realize it's expensive, hard work and go back to only buying/trading/collecting. This book may exist, but I don't think so. I can think of a few books which explain etching and nickel testing, but I can't think of anything which comprehensively covers the preservation and preparation of meteorite specimens. Personally, I will always choose to buy from a handful of dealers held in high regard, who have invaluable reputations to protect (or middlemen I trust as friends I can trust). And some field hunters I know. I've decided to avoid attractive specimens of questionable pedigree, unless I'm willing to make the often expensive choice to advertise them as "believed to be XYZ specimen". So this book would not cause the big dealers to lose my (rare) business. When a "newbie" asks a question, you can point them to the "Bible". So what do you guys think? Crazy? Brilliant? (Someone with too much time on his hands tonight?) Is this an issue that's already on the IMCA "to-do" list? Is this not commercially viable? (Cricket chirping??) ;-) Clear skies, Mark > --- On Sat, 11/14/09, Adam Hupe > wrote: > > > From: Adam Hupe > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites & Competition > To: "Adam" > > Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 1:29 PM > > > Dear List, > > > I think it is crazy to talk about corporate greed and > meteorites at the same time. There are much simpler ways of > earning money than chasing and selling meteorites.? You > have to have a love for these rocks to engage at this > level.? The overhead is astonishing while the returns > are unpredictable in an incredibly thin market.? Risk > management doesn't exist. > > I believe more corporate involvement is needed to push this > avocation to the next level.? The IMCA is a perfect > example of a positive corporate influence on a mostly > misunderstood hobby. What lacks the most right now is > customer service and value added reselling. Most new dealers > do not even polish out the saw marks on slices, let alone > polish both sides. Collectors pay for both sides of a > complete slice, not just one. It is disrespectful to cut a > meteorite and then not complete the job. A good polish is > more important for reasons > beyond aesthetics. Certification is the most important > aspect of collecting and is consistently lacking when > dealing with meteorites. One just needs to look at coins, > baseball cards and most other collectibles to see they are > nearly worthless without it.? > > In virtually ever other collectibles market, there are > standards in place thanks to corporate interest.? These > days, some uninformed elements treat meteorites like > commodities that are renewable.???Nothing > could be further from the truth. The lack of appreciation > for these rarities is really on full display during these > hard times.? People forget that meteorites are millions > of time rarer than gold that currently maintains a price of > around $35.00/gram.? May I remind you that now only > about 1/20th the amount of meteorites by weight is all that > is coming out of Moroccan compared to just five years ago > according to my calculations. It will not be long before the > non-available Antarctic meteorites regain the volume title > once again. > > I do appreciate the real nomadic meteorite hunters from > Morocco and surrounding countries.? In my opinion, they > are the best in world. It is what happens to meteorites > after they leave the finders hands that concerns me. > > Standards, proper appreciation and corporate involvement > are key to the long-term future.? I see a business-like > environment helping in all of these regards.? ? > Collectors deserve to have their investments protected. > > All the best, > > Adam > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From larrytwinkmonrad at comcast.net Sun Nov 15 10:32:58 2009 From: larrytwinkmonrad at comcast.net (Larry & Twink Monrad) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 08:32:58 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Jim Smaller References: <368607.35640.qm@web112603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <481E362B835C4DCFBECFAD93266275A9@DFZN8X81> It was interesting the way Jim Kriegh and I met Jim Smaller. We were at the Tucson Gem Show many years ago seeing the big weekend show at the Tucson Community Center. Jim was showing me the gold displays, and he stopped by a wonderful display featuring an old gold mine in Colorado. Jim had lived in CO and went to college in Boulder and loved to hunt for gold so this display interested him greatly. As we were looking at and commenting on this a large man next to us told us that his father had worked at that mine and he was proud to see this at the Show. Somehow we got around to talking about gold hunting in Arizona, which led to meteorite hunting in Arizona, and he figured out who Jim Kriegh was right away. We laughed about that, and planned to hunt together someday but unfortunately we never organized a trip together. Twink Monrad From cynapse at charter.net Sun Nov 15 10:47:05 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:47:05 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] exact Carolina Bay crater locations, RB Firestone, A West, et al, two YD reviews, 2008 June, 2009 Nov, also 3 upcoming abstracts: Rich Murray 2009.11.14 In-Reply-To: <0E536B5D52C84D9AAFA48E11A12CCFB2@ownerPC> References: <0E536B5D52C84D9AAFA48E11A12CCFB2@ownerPC> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:39:04 -0700, you wrote: >It is consistent with the ejecta layer from an impact event and ... >ejecta layer is consistent with an impact near the Great Lakes >that deposited terrestrial-like ejecta near the impact site and >unusual, titanium-rich projectile-like ejecta further away. ... >Ni, Co, U, Th and other trace element abundances are inconsistent >with all terrestrial and extraterrestrial (ET) sources except for >KREEP, a lunar igneous rock rich in potassium (K), rare-earth >elements (REE), phosphorus (P), and other incompatible elements >including U and Th. ... >Four holes in the Great Lakes, some deeper than Death Valley, >are proposed as possible craters produced by the airburst >breakup of a loosely aggregated projectile. ... >the Great Lakes or Hudson Bay. The magnetic grains and >spherules have an unusual Fe/Ti composition similar to lunar >Procellarum KREEP Terrane and the organic constituents are >enriched in 14C leading to radiocarbon dates often well into >the future. >These characteristics are inconsistent with known meteorites >and suggest that the impact was by a previous unobserved, >possibly extrasolar body. Okay, a review-- so far this impactor has been a 500 mile wide snowflake from the atmosphere of a supernova hitting at hundreds of kilometers per second. It has been an airburst over ice leaving no crater. It has left craters deeper than Death Valley in the Great Lakes. It has caused golden showers and a rain of diamonds that lasted for months. It shotgun-blasted iron particles into the tusks of mammoths. It has been a comet. It has been a chondrite, and all meteorites found by or through Nininger have been debris from it, so it was actually all types of chondrite and everything else Nininger collected. Now, it is an extrasolar lunar meteorite from the future. So, to sum it up, this 500 mile 10 mile very low-density metal and stone filled comet-asteroid supernova-produced lunar snowflake that struck at hundreds of kilometers per second did and didn't produce impact craters and left no marks except for the Great Lakes and thousands of very shallow overlapping, highly oblong pits exactly like craters from an impact event except for craters from an impact event rarely being very shallow, overlapping, highly oblong pits. It killed off all the lost Ice Age fauna at once, except for all of the Ice Age fauna, which went extinct at different times in different locations and spread out over thousands to tens of thousands of years (in some spots pretty darn well timed with the establishment of human populations, coincidence or no.) Oh, and somehow a supernova is still involved. That isn't refining an idea-- that is throwing everything you can think of against the wall and hoping that some of it sticks. From rmforall at comcast.net Sun Nov 15 01:39:04 2009 From: rmforall at comcast.net (Rich Murray) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:39:04 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] exact Carolina Bay crater locations, RB Firestone, A West, et al, two YD reviews, 2008 June, 2009 Nov, also 3 upcoming abstracts: Rich Murray 2009.11.14 Message-ID: <0E536B5D52C84D9AAFA48E11A12CCFB2@ownerPC> exact Carolina Bay crater locations, RB Firestone, A West, et al, two YD reviews, 2008 June, 2009 Nov, also 3 upcoming abstracts: Rich Murray 2009.11.14 http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.htm Saturday, November 14, 2009 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/astrodeep/message/31 ___________________________________________________ http://ie.lbl.gov/mammoth/mammoth.html Firestone paper links http://ie.lbl.gov/mammoth/TunguskaConferenceA4_Firestone.pdf 37 pages Firestone, R.B.; West, A.; Revay Zs.; Hagstrum J.T.; Belgya T.; Que Hee S.S.; and Smith, A.R. (2008) Analysis of the Younger Dryas Impact Layer, 100 years since Tunguska phenomenon: past, present, and future, June 26-28, Moscow, in press. 54 references R.B. Firestone 1, A. West 2, Zs. Revay 3, J. T. Hagstrum 4, T. Belgya 3, S.S. Que Hee 5, and A.R. Smith 1 1 Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, Berkeley, Ca 94720, [ #43 Henderson, G.M.; Hall, B.L.; Smith, A.; & Robinson, L.F. (2006) Chem. Geol. 226, 298-308 ] 2 GeoScience Consulting, Box 1636, Dewey, Arizona 86327, 3 Institute for Isotope and Surface Chemistry, P.O. Box 77, H-1525 Budapest, Hungary, 4 U.S. Geological Survey, 345 Middlefield Road MS 937, Menlo Park, CA 94025, 5 University of California, Los Angeles, ICP-MS Facility, Los Angeles, CA 90095 Abstract We have uncovered a thin layer of magnetic grains and microspherules, carbon spherules, and glass-like carbon at nine sites across North America, a site in Belgium, and throughout the rims of 16 Carolina Bays. It is consistent with the ejecta layer from an impact event and has been dated to 12.9 ka BP coinciding with the onset of Younger Dryas (YD) cooling and widespread megafaunal extinctions in North America. At many locations the impact layer is directly below a black mat marking the sudden disappearance of the megafauna and Clovis people. The distribution pattern of the Younger Dryas boundary (YDB) ejecta layer is consistent with an impact near the Great Lakes that deposited terrestrial-like ejecta near the impact site and unusual, titanium-rich projectile-like ejecta further away. High water content associated with the ejecta, up to 28 at.% hydrogen (H), suggests the impact occurred over the Laurentide Ice Sheet. YDB microspherules and magnetic grains are highly enriched in TiO2. Magnetic grains from several sites are enriched in iridium (Ir), up to 117 ppb. The TiO2/FeO, K/Th, TiO2/Zr, Al2O3/FeO+MgO, CaO/Al2O3, REE/chondrite, FeO/MnO ratios and SiO2, Na2O, K2O, Cr2O3, Ni, Co, U, Th and other trace element abundances are inconsistent with all terrestrial and extraterrestrial (ET) sources except for KREEP, a lunar igneous rock rich in potassium (K), rare-earth elements (REE), phosphorus (P), and other incompatible elements including U and Th. Normal Fe, Ti, and 238U/235U isotopic abundances were found in the magnetic grains, but 234U was enriched over equilibrium values by 50% in Murray Springs and by 130% in Belgium. 40K abundance is enriched by up to 100% in YDB sediments and Clovis chert artifacts. Highly vesicular carbon spherules containing nanodiamonds, glass-like carbon, charcoal and soot found in large quantities in the YDB layer are consistent with an impact followed by intense burning. Four holes in the Great Lakes, some deeper than Death Valley, are proposed as possible craters produced by the airburst breakup of a loosely aggregated projectile. from Table 2: CLOVIS SITES: Blackwater Draw, NM----- 34.27564N 103.32633W Chobot, AB, CAN--------- 52.99521N 114.71773W Gainey, MI----------------- 42.93978N,, 83.72111W Murray Springs, AZ --------31.57103N 110.17814W Wally's Beach, AB--------- 49.34183N 113.15440W Topper, SC -- T-1--------- 33.00554N,, 81.49001W Topper, SC -- T-2--------- 33.00545N,, 81.49056W CLOVIS-AGE SITES: Daisy Cave, CA----------- 34.04207N 120.32009W Lake Hind, MB, CAN----- 49.43970N 100.69783W Lommel, BELGIUM------- 51.23580N,,,,, 5.26403E Morley drumlin, AB-------- 51.14853N, 114.93546W CAROLINA BAYS: (with paleosol beneath) Blackville, SC -- T13------- 33.36120N 81.30440W Myrtle Beach, SC -- M31-- 33.83776N 78.69565W Lk Mattamuskeet -- LM---- 35.51865N 76.267917W Howard Bay, NC -- HB---- 34.81417N 78.84753W [ http://ie.lbl.gov/mammoth/PP43A_10.pdf ] poster 1.07 MB CAROLINA BAYS: (no paleosol reached) Myrtle Beach, SC -- M33-- 33.81883N 78.74181W Myrtle Beach, SC -- M24-- 33.83118N 78.72379W Myrtle Beach, SC -- M32-- 33.84034N 78.70906W Salters Lake, NC -- B14--- 34.70992N 78.62043W Lumberton, NC -- L33----- 34.75566N 79.10870W Lumberton, NC -- L28----- 34.77766N 79.05008W Lumberton, NC -- L31----- 34.78117N 79.04774W Lumberton, NC -- L32----- 34.79324N 79.01871W Moore Cty, NC -- MC1--- 35.30104N 78. 84753W Sewell, NC -- FS3--------- 34.95800N 78.70280W Lake Phelps -- LP---------- 35.78412N 76.434383W I looked all these up with Google Earth and Maps. In many cases, many craters overlap complexly, so it is not clear which is the one studied. It is always easy to find many more in each cluster. http://journalofcosmology.com/Extinction105.html 20 pages Firestone, R. B., 2009, The Case for the Younger Dryas Extraterrestrial Impact Event: Mammoth, Megafauna, and Clovis Extinction, 12,900 Years Ago. Journal of Cosmology. vol. 2, pp. 256-285. 67 references Abstract The onset of >1000 years of Younger Dryas cooling, broad-scale extinctions, and the disappearance of the Clovis culture in North America simultaneously occurred 12,900 years ago followed immediately by the appearance of a carbon-rich black layer at many locations. In situ bones of extinct megafauna and Clovis tools occur only beneath this black layer and not within or above it. At the base of the black mat at 9 Clovis-age sites in North America and a site in Belgium numerous extraterrestrial impact markers were found including magnetic grains highly enriched in iridium, magnetic microspherules, vesicular carbon spherules enriched in cubic, hexagonal, and n-type nanodiamonds, glass-like carbon containing Fullerenes and nanodiamonds, charcoal, soot, and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. The same impact markers were found mixed throughout the sediments of 15 Carolina Bays, elliptical depressions along the Atlantic coast, whose parallel major axes point towards either the Great Lakes or Hudson Bay. The magnetic grains and spherules have an unusual Fe/Ti composition similar to lunar Procellarum KREEP Terrane and the organic constituents are enriched in 14C leading to radiocarbon dates often well into the future. These characteristics are inconsistent with known meteorites and suggest that the impact was by a previous unobserved, possibly extrasolar body. The concentration of impact markers peaks near the Great Lakes and their unusually high water content suggests that a 4.6 km-wide comet fragmented and exploded over the Laurentide Ice Sheet creating numerous craters that now persist at the bottom of the Great Lakes. The coincidence of this impact, the onset of Younger Dryas cooling, extinction of the megafauna, and the appearance of a black mat strongly suggests that all these events are directly related. These results have unleashed an avalanche of controversy which I will address in this paper. Keywords: Younger Dryas, Extinctions, Extraterrestrial Impacts, Black Mat, Clovis, Mammoth, Megafauna "West also investigated sediment from 15 Carolina Bays, elliptical depressions found along the Atlantic coast from New England to Florida (Eyton and Parkhurst, 1975), whose parallel major axes point towards either the Great Lakes or Hudson Bay as seen in Fig. 3. Similar bays have tentatively been identified in Texas, New Mexico, Kansas, and Nebraska (Kuzilla, 1988) although they are far less common in this region. Their major axes also point towards the Great Lakes. The formation of the Carolina Bays was originally ascribed to meteor impacts (Melton and Schriever, 1933) but when no meteorites were found they were variously ascribed to marine, eolian, or other terrestrial processes. West found abundant microspherules, carbon spherules, glass-like carbon, charcoal, Fullerenes, and soot throughout the Carolina Bays but not beneath them as shown in Fig. 4. Outside of the Bays these markers were only found only in the YDB layer as in other Clovis-age sites." "Figure 3. The Carolina Bays are >>500,000 elliptical, shallow lakes, wetlands, and depressions, up to >>10 km long, with parallel major axes (see inset) pointing toward the Great Lakes or Hudson Bay. Similar features found in fewer numbers in the plains states also point towards the Great Lakes. These bays were not apparent topographical features until the advent of aerial photography." This figure shows nice color LIDAR typographic images of 8 craters, 0.5 to 4 km wide. I used Ctr + in Windows Vista to expand the NA map, counting 18 elliiptical craters in the Great Plains: Texas 4 New Mexico 3 Colorado 2 Kansas 4 Nebraska 5. It's not easy to locate the LIDAR craters on the photo images of Google Maps and Earth, but I've had a lot of practice with these states and all over Earth this year, including brief visits to many craters in New Mexico and Kauai. I managed to find Salt Lake, NM, and Coyote Lake, TX. The features are often complex enough to make assigning a size fairly arbitrary. Nice maps and typo maps and tourist info are available free on: www.trails.com www.goingoutside.com Salt Lake, New Mexico 34.079932 -103.089600, 1.177 km lowest crater elevation, NEE axis, EES rim el 1.215, N edge el 1.183, ~10x3.7, E from center 7 km to Texas and 18 km to Coyote Lake (another LIDAR image), much white deposits, N of Rd 235ew, just S of Rd 88 S Roosevelt Road 10, 24 km E of 206ns, 26 km EES of Portales, striking "comb" of many parallel ditches running into lake from E side Little Salt Lake is 7 km W of center, el 1.183, 3.6 wide, E comb, very similar and obviously connected Coyote Lake, Texas 34.102105 -102.872902 1.162 site N 1.200 15 km SW of Muleshoe, size 5.7x4.3, E comb, W of Rd 214 ns Baileyboro Lake 34.0045 -102.8206 1.155 site SW 1.186 no comb, size 2 Upper White Lake 33.9426 -102.7678 1.129 site W 1.171 S,E comb, size 1.8, 2 km W of Rd 214ns just 1 km NE is a double crater, 1.129 site W 1.169, S,E comb, 1.6x1.3, just W of Rd 214ns then just N is Muleshoe National Wildlife Refuge, same size, with a .24 wide flat round dark crater 1.667 site W 1.170 just E across Rt 214ns is Upper Pauls Lake, complex 2 km size, 1.129 site W 1.147 33.860831 -101.449100 1.038 site W 1.125 NNE 15x8, 29 km SSE of craters by Rd 214ns, 10 km W of Rd 385ns, 15 km SW of Littlefield on Rd 84nwse, comb on whole E side Returning to New Mexico, Lane Salt Lake, similar to Salt Lake 33.465718 -103.608318 1.265 site 1.300 size 10x4 NE 90 km SW of Salt Lake, E comb 34.038716 -103.350290, el 1.266, site about 1.269, .16 wide, W of 206ns, just S of S Roosevelt Rd 15, dark 34.026073 -103.399379 1.278 site 1.283 size .76, extends to SW 34.026338 -103.437950 1.279 site 1.287, cut by Rd 235ew size 1.5 WSNM 32.755610 -106.413363 1.186 site S 1.210 68x33 km White Sands National Monument, gypsum sand Howard Bay, NC -- HB---- 34.81417 -78.84753 [ Wet center marked in blue on Google Maps Terrain, named Pages Lake .7x.2, with Mines Creek NW to SE at both ends, but built over on Google Earth, 34.815274 -783014 .030 is lowest point, just SW of Rd 87, is 13.7 km W of Marshy Bay, which is NW of Bladen Lakes State Forest. site W .044 N .044 E creek .010 S .043 all at 1.3 radius, Rd 87 cuts NW across NE half, farms completely hide crater, steep bare brown red rise to NWSE ridge from .030 to .044 from .090 to 1.17 radius must be NE rim. Many local farm roads provide convenient access across crater interior. ] [ http://ie.lbl.gov/mammoth/PP43A_10.pdf ] poster 1.07 MB R. Kobres 1, G. A. Howard 2 ( george at restorationsystems.com ), A.West 3 , R. B. Firestone 4, J. P. Kennett 5, D. Kimbel 2, W. Newell 2 1 U. of Georgia, Athens, GA, 30602, 2 Restoration Systems, L.L.C., Raleigh, NC 27604, 3 GeoScience Consulting, Dewey, Arizona 86327, 4 Lawrence Berkeley National Lab Berkeley, CA 94720, 5 Dept. of Earth Sciences, U. of California, Santa Barbara, CA 93106. B23A-0948 Surface Vertical Exaggeration = 7x Scale: 250 meters Bay is 2.6 km long The Carolina Bays are a group of up to 500,000 lakes and wetlands stretching from Florida to New Jersey along the Atlantic Ocean. They are up to11 km in length and about 15 meters in depth. The elliptical shapes, overlapping rims (Fig.1, left), and common orientation towards the Great Lakes region have generated many hypotheses about how the Bays formed. Extraterrestrial Impact. This hypothesis was developed by Melton and Schriever (1933) and expanded by Prouty, (1934) and Eyton and Parkhurst(1970), who proposed that a meteorite or comet exploded above the Great Lakes, producing no primary crater. The secondary fragments and/orshock wave from that blast formed rough, shallow craters on the Atlantic Coast, and, over time, wind and water altered those craters to form the Carolina Bays. The Impact Hypothesis accounts fo rthe orientation of Bays, overlapping raised rims, and the fact that they do not appear to be forming today. However, there are problems: (a) reported Bay ages vary by tens of thousands of years; and (b) no one has found impact material in the Bays, such as shocked quartz or other ET markers. Wind-and-Water. This hypothesis was offered in various versions first by Raisz (1934) and others, whosuggested that wind created deflation basins or parabolic dunes, which later filled to become lakes that evolved into Carolina Bays. Johnson (1942) proposed that springs or groundwater dissolution of soluble minerals caused subsidence, which formed water-filled depressions that became the Bays. Kaczorowski (1976) formulated what has become one of the prevailing views, suggesting that strong ice-age winds blew across irregular lakes, generating powerful eddy-currents. Those currents gradually reshaped the lakes into oriented, elliptical Carolina Bays, whose long axes were perpendicular to the prevailing wind direction. The rims were built from wind-transported sand that accumulated from the dry lake beds during droughts. While this overall hypothesis clarifies many Bay features, it has several key weaknesses. The theory can not explain: (a)how wind and water could create up to four layers of stacked Bays with overlapping Bay rims, as seen in Fig.1; and (b) why modern severe wind and water action, such as occurs during hurricanes, does not produce or reshape Bays on the Coastal Plain today. Objective: Because of the above questions, the Bay controversy has remained unresolved for more than 80 years. In this investigation, we tested these various hypotheses by examining Howard Bay, which is located about 2km north of the town of Duartin, Bladen County, North Carolina. RESULTS Nine suites of samples were extracted along the 2.6-km long axis of Howard Bay using a combination of trenching and coring with an AMS Soil Core Sampler. Maximum depths varied from about 2 to10 meters. ET Markers. Analysis of the samples reveals an assemblage of abundant carbon spherules (Fig.2), magneticgrains, microspherules, glass-like carbon, and iridium, typical of the12.9-ka YDB impact layer found at many other non-bay sites across North America. The impact layer conforms to the bottom of the basin (dark blue on the core symbols), suggesting that the markers began to be deposited immediately or soon after the Bay formed. Fig.3 shows the results from Core #11 near the center of Howard Bay, where carbon spherules are found from nearly the surface down to about 7.5 meters deep. Glass-like carbon abundances (not shown) followed a similar pattern. Iridium (15 ppb) was found at the lowest level of the basin. Silt and Clay. Trenching shows that theBay is filled with >6m of cross-bedded eolian sand (Fig.4) with no evidence of lacustrine sedimentation. As a further test, sediment from Core #11 was analyzed with Standard ASTM sieves, and the results are shown in Fig.3. The top1 meter averaged about 14% silt and clay, and from about 1 to 9 meters, there is 0.3% to 6% silt and clay, values consistent with eolian deposition. There is typically less than a few percent of any particles larger than medium sand. DISCUSSION Analysis reveals that, unlike typical, peat-rich Carolina Bays, Howard Bay essentially lacks peat, diatoms, pollen, and other organic materials, and it also lacks substantial silt and clay. That suggests this Bay never held water for a sustained length of time. Furthermore, the presence of extensive eolian sand calls into question prevailing hypotheses (a) that all Bays were lakes and ponds in the past and that their shapes were formed by wave action, and (b) that ground water movement led to subsidence that formed the Bay. In addition, the presence of impact markers, including high concentrations of iridium in a layer just above the basal sediments of this Bay, supports the impact hypothesis for Bay formation. The age of Howard Bay appears consistent with and not older than the YD impact event; however, our research did not address the reported anomalous ages of other Bays, a question which remains unresolved. REFERENCES 1. Melton, F.A. & Scriever, W. (1933) J. Geol. 41, 52-56. 2. Prouty, W.F. (1952) Bulletin of the GSA, Vol. 63, 167-224.. 3. Eyton, J.R. & J.I. Parkhurst (1975) Dept. of Geography Paper No. 9, U. of Illinois. 4. Raisz, (1934) J. Geol., Vol. 42:839-848 5. Johnson, D.W. (1942) The Origin of the Carolina Bays. Columbia University Press, New York. 6. Kaczorowski, R.T. (1976) The Carolina Bays: a comparison with modern oriented lakes, PhD thesis, University of South Carolina, Columbia. Base image courtesy of James M. Salmons, President, GeoDataCorp., 104 E Horton St., Zebulon, NC 27597, 919-269-5744 www.GeoDataMapping.com ] [ Fig. 1 is a LIDAR elevation image of Marshy Bay, Google Maps and Earth give fine natural color view, resolution .001 km, size 3.3x1.8 km, el .033 km, 4 km E of Cedar Creek Road ns, Rd 53ns, 30 km E of Hwy 95ns, 40 km SE of Fayetteville, NW of or part of Bladen Lakes State Forest, 90 km NW of the coast at Wilmington ] with Little Singletary Lake [ North Carolina 28399 ] and Horseshoe Lake to the lower L and lower R, all oriented NW. ] One side in the debate has conceded a major point to their critics, while presenting more evidence for many other major points. AGU Fall Meeting 2009 ID# PP31D-1389 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South) Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM The platinum group metals in Younger Dryas Horizons are terrestrial Y. Wu 1; E. Wikes 1; J. Kennett 2; A. West 3; M. Sharma 1 1. Dept of Earth Sciences, Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 2. Department of Earth Sciences, University of California, Santa Barbara, CA, USA. 3. GeoScience Consulting, Dewey, AZ, USA. The Younger Dryas (YD) event, which began 12,900 years ago, was a period of abrupt and rapid cooling in the Northern Hemisphere whose primary cause remains unclear. The prevalent postulated mechanism is a temporary shutdown of the thermohaline circulation following the breakup of an ice dam in North America. Firestone et al. (2007) proposed that the cooling was triggered by multiple cometary airbursts and/or impacts that engendered enormous environmental changes and disrupted the thermohaline circulation. The evidence in support for this hypothesis is a black layer in North America and in Europe marking the YD boundary containing charcoal, soot, carbon spherules and glass-like carbon suggesting extensive and intense forest fires. This layer is also enriched in magnetic grains high in iridium, magnetic microspherules, fullerenes containing extraterrestrial He-3, and nanodiamonds. Whereas the nanodiamonds could be produced in an impact or arrive with the impactor, the cometary burst/impact hypothesis remains highly controversial as the YD horizon lacks important impact markers such as craters, breccias, tektites and shocked minerals. Firestone et al. (2007) contend that bulk of Ir found at the YD boundary is associated with magnetic grains. The key issue is whether this Ir is meteorite derived. We used Ir and Os concentrations and Os isotopes to investigate the provenance of the platinum group metals in the YD horizon. The bulk sediment samples from a number of North American YD sites (Blackwater Draw, Murray Springs, Gainey, Sheriden Cave, and Myrtle Beach) and a site in Europe (Lommel) do not show any traces of meteorite derived Os and Ir. The [Os] = 2 to 45 pg/g in these sediments and the 187Os/188Os ratios are similar to the upper continental crustal values (~1.3), much higher than those in meteorites (0.13). Higher [Os] is observed in Blackwater Draw (= 194 pg/g). However, the Os/Ir ratio in Blackwater Draw is 5 (not 1 as expected for a meteorite) and 187Os/188Os ratio = 1.35, which remains constant above and below the YD horizon. Kennett et al. (2009) report 200 ppb of nanodiamonds and about 4 ppb of Ir in bulk sediments from Murray Springs. Since chondritic meteorites contain approximately 400 ppm of presolar nanodiamonds and about 500 ppb of osmium, simple mixing requires that the YD horizon at Murray Springs should contain about 250 pg/g of Os. However, the observed Os concentration of YD horizon at Murray Springs is only 45 pg/g and the 187Os/188Os ratio is 1.66. These observations suggest that if there was an impact that produced the nanodiamonds and dispersed them, it did not provide Os (and Ir) to the Murray Springs and other North American sites. We have so far separated and analyzed magnetic grains from Gainey and Lommel and find their [Os] and 187Os/188Os ratios consistent with a terrestrial origin. The [Os] of microspherules analyzed so far are too low to be derived from meteorites. Our analyses therefore do not support an extraterrestrial origin of the platinum metals in YD horizons from North America and Europe. Contact Information: Yingzhe Wu, Hanover, New Hampshire, USA 03755 AGU Fall Meeting 2009 ID# PP31D-1392 Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South) Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM Nanodiamonds and Carbon Spherules from Tunguska, the K/T Boundary, and the Younger Dryas Boundary Layer J. H. Wittke 1; T. E. Bunch 1; A. West 2; J. Kennett 3; D. J. Kennett 4; G. A. Howard 5 1. Dept. of Geology, Northern Arizona Univ., Flagstaff, AZ, USA. 2. GeoScience Consulting, Dewey, AZ, USA. 3. Dept. of Earth Science and Marine Science Institute, Univ. of California, Santa Barbara, CA, USA. 4. Dept. of Anthropology, Univ. of Oregon, Eugene, OR, USA. 5. Restoration Systems, LLC, Raleigh, NC, USA. More than a dozen markers, including nanodiamonds (NDs) and carbon spherules (CS), occur in a sedimentary layer marking the onset of the Younger Dryas (YD) cooling episode at ~12.9 ka. This boundary layer, called the YDB, has been found at nearly forty locations across North America, Europe, and Asia, although not all markers are present at any given site. Firestone et al. (2007) and Kennett et al. (2008, 2009) proposed that these markers resulted from a cosmic impact/airburst and impact-related biomass burning. Here we report features common to the YDB event, the Cretaceous-Tertiary (K/T) impact, and the Tunguska airburst of 1908. In sediments attributed to each event, we and other researchers have recovered NDs either inside or closely associated with CS, which appear to be the high-temperature by-products of biomass burning. CS range in diameter from about 500 nanometers to 4 millimeters with a mean of ~100 microns, and they typically contain NDs, including lonsdaleite (hexagonal diamonds), in the interior matrix and in the crust. To date, CS and NDs have been found in the K/T layer in the United States, Spain, and New Zealand. Similarly, CS and NDs have been found in the YDB layer in the United States, Canada, United Kingdom, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, and France. Thus far, every site examined contains NDs and/or CS in the K/T and YDB layers; conversely, we have yet to detect CS associated with NDs in any non-YDB sediments tested. Five allotropes of NDs have been identified in association with CS: cubic diamonds, lonsdaleite, n-diamonds, p-diamonds, and i-carbon, which are differentiated by slight variations in their crystalline structure. All allotropes have been identified using scanning electron microscopy (SEM), high-resolution electron microscopy (HREM), and transmission electron microscopy (TEM) with confirmation by selected area diffraction (SAED). Lonsdaleite is found on Earth only in three instances: (1) in the laboratory, where it is produced by shock synthesis under a high-temperature-high-pressure regime (~1000?C to 1700?C at 15 GPa) or by carbon vapor deposition (CVD) under a very-high-temperature-low-pressure regime (~13,000?C at 300 Torr) (Maruyama et al., 1993); (2) after arrival on Earth inside extraterrestrial material; and (3) as a result of high-temperature cosmic impact/airbursts. Lonsdaleite associated with CS has been found in sediments only at the K/T, the YDB, and Tunguska, consistent with the hypothesis that all three events have cosmic origins, although the nature of the impactors may have been different. Contact Information: James H. Wittke, Flagstaff, Arizona, USA, 86011-4099 AGU Fall Meeting 2009 ID# PP33B-08 Location: 2006 (Moscone West) Time of Presentation: Dec 16 3:04 PM - 3:16 PM Testing Younger Dryas ET Impact (YDB) Evidence at Hall's Cave, Texas T. W. Stafford 1; E. Lundelius 2; J. Kennett 3; D. J. Kennett 4; A. West 5; W. S. Wolbach 6 1. Stafford Research, Inc., Lafayette, CO, USA. 2. Dept. of Geological Sciences, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX, USA. 3. Dept. of Earth Science & Marine Science Institute, Univ. of California, Santa Barbara, CA, USA. 4. Dept. of Anthropology, Univ. of Oregon, Eugene, OR, USA. 5. GeoScience Consulting, Dewey, AZ, USA. 6. Dept. of Chemistry, DePaul Univ., Chicago, IL, USA. Hall's Cave, Kerrville County Texas, 167 km WSW of Austin, provides a unique opportunity for testing the presence of a chronostratigraphic datum (YDB layer) containing rare and exotic proxies, including nanodiamonds, aciniform soot, and magnetic spherules, the origins of which remain controversial, but possibly derive from a cosmic impact ~12,900 CAL BP. The karst-collapse cave in Cretaceous limestone on the Edwards Plateau contains ? 3.7 m of stratified clays grading to clayey silts recording continuous deposition from 16 ka RC yr to present. The cave's small catchment area and mode of deposition were constant, and the stratigraphy is well dated based on 162 AMS 14C dates from individual vertebrate fossils, snails, charcoal, and sediment chemical fractions. The cave sequence contains an abundant small animal vertebrate fossil record, exhibiting biostratigraphic changes, and the timing of the late Pleistocene megafaunal extinction is consistent with that elsewhere in North America. At 151 cm below datum is the extremely sharp, smooth contact separating lower, dusky red (2.5YR3/2) clays below from overlying dark reddish brown (5YR3/3) clays (forming a 20-cm-thick dark layer) and dating to 13,000 CAL BP, at or close to the age of the YDB datum elsewhere. This appears to be the most distinctive lithologic change of the deglacial sequence. Sediments at or within 10 cm of this contact contain the local extinction of 4 species of bats, the local extinction of the prairie dog (Cynomys sp.) and perhaps other burrowing mammals in response to decrease in soil thickness, and the uppermost occurrence of 6 late Pleistocene megafaunal taxa that, although rare in the cave, do not extend younger than 12.9 ka. We collected and analyzed sediments at high resolution above and below the distinct lithologic contact at 151 cm. The red clays from 151 to 153 cm and immediately preceding the lithologic contact contain an abundance of nanodiamonds (5 different allotropes), aciniform soot at 2400 ppm, magnetic spherules, and carbon spherules, all of which we interpret as evidence for a unique chronostratigraphic marker (YDB) in the Western Hemisphere. Because the age of this horizon is ~ 13,000 CAL BP, we interpret the age of the event as the beginning of the Younger Dryas cooling. Regional soil erosion began ~15,000 CAL BP and continued until 7000 CAL BP, but dating suggests that there is no discontinuity or hiatus in deposition, and thus, the exotic materials in that layer are not considered to be erosional accumulations. Future analyses include sub-centimeter sampling over the YD boundary, quantification of nanodiamonds and other event-proxies within 1000 yr of the boundary and in sediments several 1000 years older and younger, continued refinement of the AMS 14C record to determine within 50 yr the location of 12,900 CAL BP datum and high resolution analysis of small animal biostratigraphy. Contact Information: Thomas W. Stafford, Lafayette, Colorado 80026 [ 30.135347 -99.537902 M. Jennifer Cooke et al, 2003 Oct, study of Hall's Cave, 4 p ] www.geo.utexas.edu/faculty/banner/Publications/Halls_Cave_Geology_03.pdf For most of these craters, white minerals are striking. Analysis of elements and isotopes should prove any evidence of ET origin, and indicate temperatures and pressures of deposition onto target rocks from steam explosions of ice comet fragments. The shared level of minimal erosion indicates a shared early Holocene origin. Amateurs should be encouraged to contribute observations and samples. Scientists can organize a center for analyzing samples at a modest profit, while freely sharing data and research. Websites, online journals, videos, magazines, books, and movies can generate reasonable profits in the service of science. The emerging insights into a past universal truama will lead to a increased shared sense of community in our human family. It is necessary to assess any future risks. nanodiamond evidence for 12,900 BP Clovis extinction impact, Santa Rosa Island, discussion on Scientific American website, Carolina Bay type craters east of Las Vegas, NM: Rich Murray 2009.09.15 http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_06_01_archive.htm Friday, July 24, 2009 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AstroDeep/28 widespread Carolina Bay type craters from Clovis comet 12,900 Ya BP? -- 0.7 M long NS crater with fractured red sandstone on SW rim, CR C 53A, 20 miles E of Las Vegas, NM: Rich Murray 2009.06.08 http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_06_01_archive.htm Monday, June 8, 2009 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AstroDeep/27 For Google Earth, here are the Windows/Linux keyboard commands that make it easy to "fly" easily, creating an intuitive 3D grasp of the landscape -- my laptop runs at 1 GHZ with a graphics card, Windows Vista, Chrome, and 3 GB RAM: Full screen mode: F11 Lat/Long grid: Ctrl L Slow movement down: add Alt before other keys Zoom in, out: PgUp, PgDn keys Move left, right, forward, back: arrow keys Tilt view up, down: Shift down arrow, up arrow Rotate view in circle clockwise, counterclockwise: Shift right arrow, left arrow Tilt up towards horizon, down towards directly below: Shift down arrow, up arrow Stop, start movement: space bar Look in any direction: Ctrl, left mouse button and drag New placemark: Ctrl Shift P To delete or rewrite a placemark title, right click it and select Properties. Reset view to north as forward: n Reset tilt to top-down view: u Select Tools to select Web to return to your other screens. It's easy to look down about 45 degrees while moving straight ahead in any direction at an eye elevation of 1-200 km, scanning a straight strip half-way around the world, stopping to placemark, examine, and measure any features. http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/java/ Requirements: a 3D video card with updated drivers is necessary. World Wind has been tested on Nvidia, ATI/AMD, and Intel platforms using Windows, MacOS 10.4, and Fedora Core 6. WW gives exact altitudes and ocean depths. WW images omit human features and give good resolution from above 30 km. http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/graphics/keychart.jpg Keyboard controls: Pan: arrow keys Rotate LR: A,D keys Tilt forward down, back up: W,S keys Zoom down, up: 7 or Home, 1 or End Stop: space bar or 5. Position info: F10 Crosshairs: F9 Boundaries: F5 Placenames: F6 Lat/Long Lines: F7 Planet Axis: F8 Dynamic Layers: F1 _____________________________________________________ Rich Murray, MA Boston University Graduate School 1967 psychology, BS MIT 1964, history and physics, 1943 Otowi Road, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 505-501-2298 rmforall at comcast.net http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AstroDeep/messages http://RMForAll.blogspot.com new primary archive http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartameNM/messages group with 142 members, 1,588 posts in a public archive http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartame/messages group with 1204 members, 23,955 posts in a public archive http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rmforall/messages participant, Santa Fe Complex www.sfcomplex.org _____________________________________________________ From srku1104 at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 11:32:34 2009 From: srku1104 at gmail.com (srku) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 00:32:34 +0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] hoba meteorite wanted please. Message-ID: Dear All, If you have one, please email me with its information and price. Thanks a lot. Sincerely, Roke From tbear1 at cableone.net Sun Nov 15 12:09:15 2009 From: tbear1 at cableone.net (Ted Bunch) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:09:15 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] exact Carolina Bay crater locations, RB Firestone, A West, et al, two YD reviews, 2008 June, 2009 Nov, also 3 upcoming abstracts: Rich Murray 2009.11.14 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Patience Darren. Listed below are the various scenarios presently considered to account for the YD "impact"event. When there is an absence of a crater, research needs to dig deeper, much like the position of the Alvarez group in the '80s before a crater was found for the K/T event. We know that airbursts have happened in the past (e. g., Tunguska), the questions are, how big have they been and how big can they be? What was presented prior to 2006 has little to do with present considerations concerning the origin of the YD event based on the efforts of >60 scientists from eight countries. Most of these efforts have focused on analyzing materials from sites that occur from California to the Caspian Sea, not speculating on potential origins. However, we do need to work the data with various impact options in order to see what are good and bad fits: (1) An extraordinary accretion of micrometeorites (Pinter and Ishman, 2008), which is inconsistent with YDB carbon spherule compositions and the huge amount of nanodiamonds found within the YDB carbon spherules. (2) Oblique impact (s) into the Laurentide Ice Sheet. This model does account for the absence of a crater and the lack of cratering markers. Also provides for the shock production of the many cubic and lonsdaleite (hexagonal) nanodiamonds found in the YDB. (3) Impact-induced aerial burst (s), e. g, Boslough and Crawford (2007); Shuvalov (2008). The lack of high shock pressures in an aerial detonation does not necessary preclude the formation of cubic and hexagonal diamonds. Maruyama et al., (1993) made hexagonal and cubic diamonds by a CVD process from a high temperature plasma atmosphere (13,000 ?C) under conditions similar to those in an aerial burst. The Tunguska event is commonly accepted as the result of a near surface aerial burst and has many similarities with the YD event, including diamonds. (4) Comet grazing of the atmosphere (Drobysheski, 2009). Nearly tangent entry of a comet into the Earth?s atmosphere with partial detonation and melting followed by escape of the unexploded nucleus into space. Has the net effect of an atmosphere-penetrating aerial burst followed by global fallout of detonation products. More work and time may give us a better understanding of the YD impact mechanism. In the meantime, I suggest that you are what needs to be peeled off the wall. Get a clearer focus on pertinent literature and on-going research - the upcoming AGU Meeting, with pro and con abstracts on the subject, is a good place to start. Ted Bunch On 11/15/09 8:47 AM, "Darren Garrison" wrote: > On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:39:04 -0700, you wrote: > >> It is consistent with the ejecta layer from an impact event and > > ... > >> ejecta layer is consistent with an impact near the Great Lakes >> that deposited terrestrial-like ejecta near the impact site and >> unusual, titanium-rich projectile-like ejecta further away. > > ... > >> Ni, Co, U, Th and other trace element abundances are inconsistent >> with all terrestrial and extraterrestrial (ET) sources except for >> KREEP, a lunar igneous rock rich in potassium (K), rare-earth >> elements (REE), phosphorus (P), and other incompatible elements >> including U and Th. > > ... > >> Four holes in the Great Lakes, some deeper than Death Valley, >> are proposed as possible craters produced by the airburst >> breakup of a loosely aggregated projectile. > > ... > >> the Great Lakes or Hudson Bay. The magnetic grains and >> spherules have an unusual Fe/Ti composition similar to lunar >> Procellarum KREEP Terrane and the organic constituents are >> enriched in 14C leading to radiocarbon dates often well into >> the future. >> These characteristics are inconsistent with known meteorites >> and suggest that the impact was by a previous unobserved, >> possibly extrasolar body. > > > > Okay, a review-- so far this impactor has been a 500 mile wide snowflake from > the atmosphere of a supernova hitting at hundreds of kilometers per second. > It > has been an airburst over ice leaving no crater. It has left craters deeper > than Death Valley in the Great Lakes. It has caused golden showers and a rain > of diamonds that lasted for months. It shotgun-blasted iron particles into > the > tusks of mammoths. It has been a comet. It has been a chondrite, and all > meteorites found by or through Nininger have been debris from it, so it was > actually all types of chondrite and everything else Nininger collected. Now, > it > is an extrasolar lunar meteorite from the future. > > So, to sum it up, this 500 mile 10 mile very low-density metal and stone > filled > comet-asteroid supernova-produced lunar snowflake that struck at hundreds of > kilometers per second did and didn't produce impact craters and left no marks > except for the Great Lakes and thousands of very shallow overlapping, highly > oblong pits exactly like craters from an impact event except for craters from > an > impact event rarely being very shallow, overlapping, highly oblong pits. It > killed off all the lost Ice Age fauna at once, except for all of the Ice Age > fauna, which went extinct at different times in different locations and spread > out over thousands to tens of thousands of years (in some spots pretty darn > well > timed with the establishment of human populations, coincidence or no.) Oh, > and > somehow a supernova is still involved. > > That isn't refining an idea-- that is throwing everything you can think of > against the wall and hoping that some of it sticks. > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Sun Nov 15 12:17:53 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 09:17:53 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] BEATING A DEAD HORSE - The future and beyond In-Reply-To: References: , , <810071.98066.qm@web46409.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: Wow: All of this is pretty amazing. First of all, we ALL were newbies at some point. Also, I think newbies buy alot of meteorites from dealers too. You never know, a newbie now may spend 1000?s of $ over the next few years. Too me it's very bad business to treat you customers poorly, or make fun of them. That?s one wat to hurt sales. I joined this list to learn from the experts; if their goal is to keep knowledge from me or look down at me, I think that's sad and very disappointing. Then all this list becomes is a marketing site. Sure, info about a new find or cold finds being confidential is understandable. But what is wrong with helping someone with payment options to a Moroccan dealer? All I can said is I only buy meteorites from certain dealers, there is a reason for that ? think about it. Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > From: bencubbin at hotmail.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:14:42 -0700 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BEATING A DEAD HORSE - The future and beyond > > > Well Greg... > > The way you ended your email pretty much says it all: > > Just my two pennies. From what I understand that is pyou pretty much all you have to spend. So you get deserve two cents worth. Pretty much way down on the food chain in my opinion. > > Business in the USA is a dog eat dog world. That is capitalizm dude. Didn't you learn anything in business school? > > That is what I am talking about, Business. > > Good lOrd get a clue dude. > > Howard Steffic > > >> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:46:35 -0800 >> From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com >> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BEATING A DEAD HORSE - The future and beyond >> >> I would have to agree with you Dave. >> >> I also think that it shows a good deal about someone who is willing to help others, just as it shows a good deal about those that are not willing. >> >> Howards comments reflect a perfect example of why I have grown to have the impression that meteorites are dog eat dog and question motives and reasons for certain things. >> >> Should we really look at educating and helping newer collectors and tomorrows hunters/dealers as "bad" and "training the competition" or should we look at it as making sure those that will take the reigns of this great hobby have learned from those that know how to do it right? >> >> Sure to some, meteorites are simply that "gold mine" or "money falling from the sky" while to others, meteorites offer a chance to take part in something, to learn about and take part in the study of space and history. >> >> I guess it all comes down to why people are into meteorites... For money, or for the science of meteoritics. sure the money is good, I wont deny that, but is that all its really about? No. >> >> We are gifted with some wonderful things from outside this planet that we would never be able to touch, test, learn from or anything else many claim to value and want to preserve. With that in mind, should it not be in all of our best interests to make sure that the future generation has learned from those that know how to properly document, record, preserve and care for the collections we value so much today? >> >> Sure, some may look at it as training competition, but perhaps they should really look at it as passing on a gift of knowledge to those that will follow in the footsteps of the path they have already traveled... >> >> just my 2 pennies, hope everyone is having a good day! >> >> >> Greg C. >> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com >> IMCA 4682 >> >> >> --- On Sat, 11/14/09, dave carothers wrote: >> >>> From: dave carothers >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD HORSEIs toMorocco >>> To: "Howard Steffic" , meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 1:20 PM >>> Howard, >>> >>> Respectfully... >>> >>> Reference your comment "I laugh at how the "newbies" expect >>> the veterans >>> with the battle scars to tell them exacty how to .... Hunt >>> Meteorites or >>> Sell on Ebay or send money overseas. Get off the couch and >>> do your own >>> legwork." >>> >>> Why should it bother YOU that someone should ask for for >>> advice or >>> assistance? Go back through the history of this list >>> and you will see >>> literally thousands of instances where dealers and >>> professional hunters have >>> freely offered advice and assistance to >>> "newbies". You don't think people >>> stay on this list for the ads, do you? You don't >>> think people stay on this >>> list for the disputes, cyber fist fights, etc, do >>> you? I personally stay on >>> this list (and I'm sure other do to) so we CAN ask for >>> advice and assistance >>> from the pros. >>> >>> I won't answer as to the motives or rationale of why >>> dealers and >>> professional hunters freely offer advice and assistance to >>> "newbies", but >>> suffice to say that I (and I know hundreds, maybe thousands >>> of others over >>> the history of this list) appreciate ALL the assistance >>> offered by ANYONE on >>> this list. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Howard Steffic" >>> To: >>> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 12:35 PM >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - >>> BEATING A DEAD >>> HORSEIs toMorocco >>> >>> >>>> >>>> My point is, and perhaps you can explain >>> why......... Any meteorite >>>> dealer or professional hunter should teach anybody how >>> be a competitor? >>>> >>>> Do you think McDonalds would teach you how to run a >>> restaurant? >>>> >>>> The logic that is used by some of these newbies is >>> what is moronic. I >>>> don't hunt or sell but if I did, I wouldn't expect >>> anyone to teach me how >>>> to be a competitor. >>>> >>>> Respectfully yours..... >>>> >>>> Howard Steffic >>>> >>>> >>>>> From: carothersdl at gmail.com >>>>> To: bencubbin at hotmail.com; >>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send >>> payments - BEATING A DEAD >>>>> HORSEIs toMorocco >>>>> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:42:15 -0500 >>>>> >>>>> Howard, >>>>> >>>>> Your comment is moronic. This group is as much >>> about posting information >>>>> to >>>>> assist "newbies" as anything else. You should know >>> better. >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Howard Steffic" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 2:17 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send >>> payments - BEATING A DEAD >>>>> HORSEIs toMorocco >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Is anyone else getting tired of this moronic >>> discussion? >>>>>> >>>>>> I laugh at how the "newbies" expect the >>> veterans with the battle scars >>>>>> to >>>>>> tell them exacty how to .... Hunt Meteorites >>> or Sell on Ebay or send >>>>>> money overseas. Get off the couch and do your >>> own legwork. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now lets give this thread a proper burrial and >>> get back to meteorites. >>>>>> Didn't someone actually find something (like a >>> meteorite not an alien) >>>>>> that we can talk about? >>>>>> >>>>>> Howard Steffic >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:54:25 -0800 >>>>>>> From: abdelaziz_alhyane at yahoo.com >>>>>>> To: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com; >>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; >>>>>>> searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to >>> send payments from Canada >>>>>>> toMorocco >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello Brian and all, >>>>>>> MoneyGram is available in Morocco, and >>> Abdellah is a good person five >>>>>>> stars in honesty and trust. >>>>>>> My best >>>>>>> Aziz >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- On Fri, 11/13/09, Brian Cox >>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: Brian Cox >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best >>> ways to send payments from Canada >>>>>>>> toMorocco >>>>>>>> To: "Melanie Matthews" , >>>>>>>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 2:39 >>> PM >>>>>>>> Hi Melanie, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm glad you are on top of this and >>> that you are keeping in >>>>>>>> touch with the seller. I'm glad he's >>> mailing back your >>>>>>>> postal money order. Hopefully the >>> Moneyram will work out and >>>>>>>> he'll accept it as he said and you'll >>> get your new >>>>>>>> meteorites. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I wish you all the best and hope that >>> you receive some >>>>>>>> really great and rare meteorites in >>> the group. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Have a great day! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>> "Melanie Matthews" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To: "Brian Cox" ; >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:15 >>> AM >>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Best >>> ways to send payments >>>>>>>> from Canada toMorocco >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Brian, listers. >>>>>>>> Actually it was a postal money order >>> that I >>>>>>>> mailed out to him (Mr. Abdellah >>> Afiniss), and yes it >>>>>>>> included the cost >>>>>>>> of the stones plus the shipping costs. >>> I asked him to mail >>>>>>>> it back to >>>>>>>> me and he said he did. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Once I get the slip back I'm going to >>>>>>>> get back the money I put onto it and >>> re-send the payment to >>>>>>>> him - >>>>>>>> probably via Moneygram (which he told >>> me he accepts). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At first offered me a lot total of 8.5 >>> kgs of chondrites >>>>>>>> (all >>>>>>>> unclassified),, knowing full well I >>> couldn't afford all >>>>>>>> that I circled >>>>>>>> some stones in Paint.net (free image >>> editing program >>>>>>>> similar to >>>>>>>> MSPaint) that I wanted in the >>> photographs, emailed back to >>>>>>>> him and >>>>>>>> kindly asked him to send me images of >>> each meteorite I >>>>>>>> picked sitting >>>>>>>> on the scale to show their weights... >>> I then worked out the >>>>>>>> prices >>>>>>>> until I made the final decition on >>> buying five rocks >>>>>>>> together weighing >>>>>>>> 837 grams.. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As I said he has been very >>> cooperative, and I thanks him >>>>>>>> and I thank all here on the list for >>> their >>>>>>>> input/suggestions! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>>> Melanie >>>>>>>> IMCA: 2975 >>>>>>>> eBay: metmel2775 >>>>>>>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as >>> SpaceCollector09 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Unclassified meteorites are like a box >>> of chocolates... you >>>>>>>> never know what you're gonna get! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> ---------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> From: searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net >>>>>>>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:56:13 >>> -0600 >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best >>> ways to send >>>>>>>> payments from Canada to Morocco >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello Melanie and list, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In regards to your question of >>> sending payments to >>>>>>>> Morocco, I have to ask a >>>>>>>>> couple of questions and others >>> also mentioned they >>>>>>>> weren't clear on your >>>>>>>>> question since you didn't seem to >>> be including >>>>>>>> shipping costs. I'd like to >>>>>>>>> help you out and I mean this in >>> the most thoughtful >>>>>>>> and kindest way >>>>>>>>> possible, so please don't take it >>> negatively or have >>>>>>>> any anger towards me. >>>>>>>>> Make sure you include shipping >>> costs when you were >>>>>>>> determining the total >>>>>>>>> amount of the payment you need to >>> send to the seller >>>>>>>> and then send a check >>>>>>>>> and then say you couldn't afford >>> the FedEx shipping >>>>>>>> costs if that is what >>>>>>>>> you agreed to buy from the seller? >>> You have said this >>>>>>>> in the past about not >>>>>>>>> having money to pay for something >>> or to pay for the >>>>>>>> shipping costs. It's >>>>>>>>> good to ask for help if you are >>> not experienced in >>>>>>>> sending payments outside >>>>>>>>> of Canada beyond Paypal. This >>> sounds like you decided >>>>>>>> to send a check for >>>>>>>>> the meteorites and then were going >>> to decide about a >>>>>>>> payment for the >>>>>>>>> "shipping" as a separate payment >>> or to pay for >>>>>>>> shipping later on. Is this >>>>>>>>> why you stated you couldn't afford >>> the FedEx shipping >>>>>>>> costs after you had >>>>>>>>> sent your personal Canadian paper >>> check? This doesn't >>>>>>>> sound right why you >>>>>>>>> wouldn't determine the full amount >>> due to the seller >>>>>>>> for the items with >>>>>>>>> shipping and or insurance and then >>> send one payment >>>>>>>> and later decide you >>>>>>>>> couldn't afford the shipping costs >>> they gave you. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Also, you stated you sent a "Paper >>> Check" which, as I >>>>>>>> am thinking is a >>>>>>>>> "personal check" from your >>> personal Canadian bank >>>>>>>> account by what you wrote. >>>>>>>>> I'm confused to why would you >>> think that a personal >>>>>>>> check from your Canadian >>>>>>>>> bank account would be "valid" as >>> you say, to a dealer >>>>>>>> in Morocco, which I am >>>>>>>>> sure it is valid in Canada and you >>> have money in your >>>>>>>> account, but most >>>>>>>>> likely would not be accepted in >>> Morocco or any other >>>>>>>> country? You don't >>>>>>>>> often hear of dealers in Asia, >>> Africa, Europe or for >>>>>>>> the most part any >>>>>>>>> dealers in the U.S. or anywhere in >>> North or South >>>>>>>> America or Australia that >>>>>>>>> would accept a personal Paper >>> check from a bank in a >>>>>>>> different country, >>>>>>>>> although it may happen. A check >>> from a Canadian bank >>>>>>>> account or from a U.S. >>>>>>>>> bank account or any personal paper >>> check from any >>>>>>>> other country most likely >>>>>>>>> won't be accepted unless they >>> verified with their bank >>>>>>>> first that they could >>>>>>>>> accept that check. An example >>> would be if there was >>>>>>>> Citibank in Canada and >>>>>>>>> then Citibank in the U.S. would >>> accept that check or >>>>>>>> Citibank in England, >>>>>>>>> etc. .I'm sure if the check was >>> from a bank that had a >>>>>>>> branch in that >>>>>>>>> country that it would be accepted, >>> but it usually >>>>>>>> creates a hassle and is >>>>>>>>> time consuming to stand in line or >>> through an ATM. As >>>>>>>> several members >>>>>>>>> mentioned bank wire is the safest >>> and then probably >>>>>>>> FedEx payment, but >>>>>>>>> sending a paper check or money >>> order isn't a good idea >>>>>>>> as Gary mentioned. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would like to offer a friendly >>> suggestion to help >>>>>>>> you out. Please make >>>>>>>>> sure you discuss all the facts and >>> figures with any >>>>>>>> dealer/collector >>>>>>>>> anywhere in the world before >>> closing a deal. Remember >>>>>>>> you are entering a >>>>>>>>> contract with this dealer, whether >>> it is on ebay or >>>>>>>> through their website or >>>>>>>>> through correspondence with the >>> dealer. On ebay this >>>>>>>> is stated as you are >>>>>>>>> entering a contract so be mindful >>> of this. You need to >>>>>>>> finalize all costs. >>>>>>>>> You need to get the full amount >>> that you owe in >>>>>>>> writing, email, etc. for the >>>>>>>>> meteorites and any insurance and >>> shipping and then you >>>>>>>> need to first discuss >>>>>>>>> the method of payment to that >>> dealer before you send >>>>>>>> any payment. I think >>>>>>>>> your first mistake here was that >>> it sounds as if you >>>>>>>> didn't determine the >>>>>>>>> full costs of the meteorites with >>> shipping, then you >>>>>>>> didn't ask the seller >>>>>>>>> if he or she would accept a >>> "Personal Paper Check from >>>>>>>> another country. I >>>>>>>>> think you will have much better >>> luck and increase good >>>>>>>> relations with >>>>>>>>> dealers through online sales, ebay >>> and through the >>>>>>>> different meteorite lists >>>>>>>>> you if you slow down and get the >>> facts before making >>>>>>>> purchases and payments. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As you have written on your posts >>> the equivalent of >>>>>>>> The Tom Hanks character >>>>>>>>> from the Forest Gump movie, "Life >>> is like a box of >>>>>>>> chocolates." You need >>>>>>>>> to stop and think that your eyes >>> are bigger than your >>>>>>>> stomach and stop and >>>>>>>>> think of what you are wanting to >>> bid on or buy first >>>>>>>> and how to pay for it. >>>>>>>>> There is an old saying in America >>> that you may or may >>>>>>>> not know in Canada. >>>>>>>>> "Your eyes are bigger than your >>> stomach" which roughly >>>>>>>> means you saw the >>>>>>>>> food on the menu and you ordered >>> all that looked good >>>>>>>> to eat, but your >>>>>>>>> stomach wasn't big enough to eat >>> it all and you became >>>>>>>> very full before you >>>>>>>>> could finish the meal. This is the >>> same as the child >>>>>>>> that fills their plate >>>>>>>>> up and can't eat it all at home. >>> This also goes along >>>>>>>> with shopping at the >>>>>>>>> store when you are hungry and >>> buying too much, as in >>>>>>>> buying more goodies >>>>>>>>> than you needed. In this case >>> looking at meteorites >>>>>>>> you want to buy and then >>>>>>>>> not carefully researching making a >>> payment and then >>>>>>>> feeling full of >>>>>>>>> frustration and aggravation at how >>> to make the payment >>>>>>>> or what road to go >>>>>>>>> down. I truly hope this helps in >>> the future. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Have a great day! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best ways to send payments from >>> Canada to Morocco >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi list, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Please help - I mailed a payment >>> to a Moroccan dealer >>>>>>>> for a lot of >>>>>>>>> chondrites via a paper check, he >>> got it today, but he >>>>>>>> told me that the banks >>>>>>>>> over there don't recognize it even >>> though it is >>>>>>>> completely valid. I can't >>>>>>>>> afford the shipping costs through >>> FedEx for the lot I >>>>>>>> want - which will be >>>>>>>>> over $200 CND... so what other >>> less expensive options >>>>>>>> do you suggest? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thank you in advance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>>>> Melanie >>>>>>>>> IMCA: 2975 >>>>>>>>> eBay: metmel2775 >>>>>>>>> Known on SkyRock Cafe as >>> SpaceCollector09 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Ready. Set. Get a great deal on >>> Windows 7. See fantastic >>>>>>>> deals on Windows 7 now >>>>>>>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818= >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>>>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>>> Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn >>> more. >>>>>> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >>>>>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>>> >>>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in >>> one place. >>>> http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 From azizhabibi at yahoo.com Sun Nov 15 12:22:55 2009 From: azizhabibi at yahoo.com (habibi abdelaziz) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 09:22:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009;; 21.25 cmt Message-ID: <485788.57286.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> hi guys each time of this year october and november we have a fall, it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a precise time and space with a small incertitude of a month, it fells over rich 20 km north est, ITS CONFIRMED ?? more news to fallow, thanks aziz habibi ?habibi aziz box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco phone. 21235576145 fax.21235576170 From fujmon at mac.com Sun Nov 15 12:30:23 2009 From: fujmon at mac.com (Gary Fujihara) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 07:30:23 -1000 Subject: [meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009; ; 21.25 cmt In-Reply-To: <485788.57286.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <485788.57286.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E70A9D8-844D-4F09-B2D9-BD5F90B272BB@mac.com> Mahalo (thank you) Aziz for the updates of the recent fireball over Errachidia, Morocco. Last year around this time was Tamdakht, and I am anxious to hear of any recovery of this potential new fall. gary On Nov 15, 2009, at 7:22 AM, habibi abdelaziz wrote: > hi guys > each time of this year october and november we have a fall, > it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a precise time and space with a small incertitude of a month, > > it fells over rich 20 km north est, > > ITS CONFIRMED ? more news to fallow, > > thanks > aziz habibi > > > habibi aziz > box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco > phone. 21235576145 > fax.21235576170 > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Gary Fujihara AstroDay Institute 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720 (808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com http://astroday.net From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Sun Nov 15 12:31:12 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 09:31:12 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage In-Reply-To: References: <5bb98d570911140928o3868139dy2592a85ad203f31b@mail.gmail.com>, , <0B5B5A67-9224-4E4F-B444-4451CD88A8D9@dof3.com>, Message-ID: I may be late for this: I was flying from DC with some meteorites and I carried them on (I never check anything I would not want to lose or need) and the TSA looked at them like the were from "outer space"... heHeHe... and they pulled me aside and asked me questions. I told the I was visiting the Smithsonian. Now there were about three of the looking at my stones handing to one another and looking a me oddly. At this point I was getting worried; a few 100 gram chondrites i found and some rare achondrites I have bought - including a mars meteorite. Well, after a bout 5 or 10 minutes they let me go... wow, I was sweating. I would certainly call the airline and check. Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > From: astroroks at hotmail.com > To: darryl at dof3.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:23:02 -0600 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage > > > In mine, the TSA in Cairo considered my samples as "Hazardous Projectiles" > and would not allow them as carry-on. Had to check them. That was in > September. Got home with them O.K. Just fossels, got stopped for my > meteorite search in Sudan. > Dennis > >> From: darryl at dof3.com >> To: marsrox at gmail.com >> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 12:56:38 -0500 >> CC: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage >> >> >> >> in my experience, it's at the discretion of the TSA supervisor on duty. >> >> good luck. best/ d, >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 14, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Kevin Kichinka wrote: >> >>> I want to bring two iron meteorites, one a Campo of 10 kgs., the other >>> a Gibeon of 4 kgs., to Costa Rica from Miami on American Airlines. I >>> would never check them and take a chance they might disappear. I would >>> carry them on the plane in a small suitcase. >>> >>> >>> Are these prohibited items? How do dealers flying around the planet to >>> shows ship their rocks? >>> >>> >>> Thanks for any and all that have experience with this and respond. >>> >>> >>> Kevin Kichinka >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Sun Nov 15 12:47:16 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 09:47:16 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Barred Chondrule Fans JaH 055 incident light micrograph gallery update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tom: You produce amazing pictures - you're an artist. You need to publish a book of you work. Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > From: STARSANDSCOPES at aol.com > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 22:21:10 -0500 > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Barred Chondrule Fans JaH 055 incident light micrograph gallery update > > Hi List, Last week I emailed the list about a SaU 001 chondrule shot that > I wanted to send in full resolution to anyone who wanted it. > > There were over 40 takers but unfortunately many had Internet provider > limits on file size so they couldn't get the full size file. > > I had some beautiful high resolution shots of this JaH 055 chondrule that > you need to se to appreciate. They are not using a thin section and they > are in true color. Really what they look like way up close. I wanted to > send a full size file again but the last try didn't work out so well. > > Paul (Meteorite Times and Meteorite Exchange) helped out. He just set up > a new set of JaH 055 barred chondrule reflected light images on my gallery > and posted one full size in image of the month. You can down load it off > the site with out dealing with email size limits! > > Both can be found in my gallery > http://www.meteorite.com/meteorite-gallery/meteorites-feat_frame.htm > Select Features on the top tab and the image of the month or barred > chondrule. > > While you are there, I just put up a set of Al Huqf 007 taken in > transmitted cross polarized light. These are the colorful thin section Xpol shots. > Some are quite abstract but beautiful (at least I think so). > > Please check them out. Thanks Tom Phillips > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From eric at meteoritesusa.com Sun Nov 15 13:41:07 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:41:07 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites & Competition In-Reply-To: <557682.80472.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4AFF0271.3040801@meteoritesusa.com> <557682.80472.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B004B43.3010202@meteoritesusa.com> Hi Adam, I'm curios what you mean by "corporate involvement" when it concerns meteorites? With regards to the IMCA I am in partial agreement, and believe they are a good organization, and needed in this industry. But some restraint needs to be had with regard to the influence that these types of groups have. Historically speaking such groups tend to lean toward their own motives over time. There has been no organization in the history of man that has not given in, at least partially, to the temptation such influence. If you mean some sort of sponsorship of certain outreach and educational programs geared toward teaching children and young adults about astronomy and meteorites then I'm game. But if corporate involvement means losing the personality and integrity of the meteorite world through increased tampering by larger groups and politically or profit motivated companies who might in future times limit the publics access to meteorites then I'm not for that at all. This is a slippery slope... My personal beliefs are that people should have free access to the knowledge and information that meteorites and astronomy provides. The word "corporate" to me means restrictive for profit, and an example would be the corporate mentality of profit before people. I'm not necessarily referring to monetary profit, but rather to the increased influence particular groups may have over access to knowledge and information through the study of meteorites by individuals and the limited access that some scientific institutions have applied to certain collections. Collections that in my opinion every human being on the planet should have access to. Not to fondle and ogle the collection, but to view, study and learn. I'm not attacking here, I'm simply voicing a concern and my belief in the free access to knowledge that needs to be preserved. Thanks for listening... Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA Adam Hupe wrote: > Dear List, > > > I think it is crazy to talk about corporate greed and meteorites at the same time. There are much simpler ways of earning money than chasing and selling meteorites. You have to have a love for these rocks to engage at this level. The overhead is astonishing while the returns are unpredictable in an incredibly thin market. Risk management doesn't exist. > > I believe more corporate involvement is needed to push this avocation to the next level. The IMCA is a perfect example of a positive corporate influence on a mostly misunderstood hobby. What lacks the most right now is customer service and value added reselling. Most new dealers do not even polish out the saw marks on slices, let alone polish both sides. Collectors pay for both sides of a complete slice, not just one. It is disrespectful to cut a meteorite and then not complete the job. A good polish is more important for reasons beyond aesthetics. Certification is the most important aspect of collecting and is consistently lacking when dealing with meteorites. One just needs to look at coins, baseball cards and most other collectibles to see they are nearly worthless without it. > > In virtually ever other collectibles market, there are standards in place thanks to corporate interest. These days, some uninformed elements treat meteorites like commodities that are renewable. Nothing could be further from the truth. The lack of appreciation for these rarities is really on full display during these hard times. People forget that meteorites are millions of time rarer than gold that currently maintains a price of around $35.00/gram. May I remind you that now only about 1/20th the amount of meteorites by weight is all that is coming out of Moroccan compared to just five years ago according to my calculations. It will not be long before the non-available Antarctic meteorites regain the volume title once again. > > I do appreciate the real nomadic meteorite hunters from Morocco and surrounding countries. In my opinion, they are the best in world. It is what happens to meteorites after they leave the finders hands that concerns me. > > Standards, proper appreciation and corporate involvement are key to the long-term future. I see a business-like environment helping in all of these regards. Collectors deserve to have their investments protected. > > All the best, > > Adam > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > From Impactika at aol.com Sun Nov 15 13:45:39 2009 From: Impactika at aol.com (Impactika at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:45:39 EST Subject: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & Competition) Message-ID: Hello Mark and List, There is already a book that answers a lot of your questions, not all of them, but quite a few. It is the Handbook of Meteorites by O. Richard Norton. I certainly would recommend getting it. Also I would like to add one thing to the discussion about helping new meteorite enthusiasts; It is not because you did not see a response on the List that no help of response was sent. It is often a whole lot better to email that person privately to ask for additional details to narrow down the problem, or simply to protect that person from some public embarassement. I know I probably write 50 private emails for every one posted here. And then we are not all always glued to our computer (believe it or not!!), personally I have a book (about meteorites of course) to translate as quickly as possible so it will be available in Tucson. And Norbert Classen and I have the dubious honor of having to answer every question that comes in on the IMCA questions email address. Also time consuming. And right now I have a whole lot of snow to shovel!!! Have a nice day. Anne M. Black _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) _IMPACTIKA at aol.com_ (mailto:IMPACTIKA at aol.com) Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) In a message dated 11/15/2009 8:30:51 AM Mountain Standard Time, minador at yahoo.com writes: Dear List, I think Adam has some great points. I think people forget how rare these things are. Prices often don't reflect that. I think people are more likely to give advice when a "newbie" asks something like, I've ruined several slices trying to do such & such, I've tried A and B, what else should I do. it shows that they're paying their dues, but need a little advice which they can probably absorb quickly, saving an "expert's" time. The sad thing is that a few slices/specimens have been ruined (maybe from "cheap, common NWA" material, but very rare, finite material nonetheless). How do you balance the protection of trade secrets and your business vs. the ideal of preserving this wonderful material? I suppose there are techniques which are common in parallel fields like lapidary, which one can assume they'll figure it out the hard way (both hard on their time/wallet but also hard on meteorites). I would say one should be somewhat eager to help in that case, since keeping quiet won't deter them but only make possible the damage of more specimens. However, offering help takes precious time, busy people lack. What about the possibility of a guidebook highlighting some of these "common" things? The first person(s) with the ability to write said tome could profit from the book sales, and many novices would benefit from the tips. Sensitive trade secrets could be mentioned by name and the disclaimer given that you will have to experiment at the peril of your collection and finances - or maybe find a willing mentor. The book would have to be relatively comprehensive - covering the common things which can be found in a lapidary book, but from a meteorite point of view (there might be possibility of tips like "it's wise to practice this technique using sandstone(?) because it approximates XYZ meteorites very well, and you can rest assured that your learning curve isn't busting the bank"). And it would also cover the meteorites specific topics like chemicals/oils to avoid, etc. Maybe some explanations of the different textures you will encounter in meteorites. Maybe a section on thin sections, epoxy plugs, and ? There might be room for general things like an explanation meteorite classifications, collecting strategies, strategies for documenting a collection of specimens, a list of common vendors, etc. There are lots of interesting, useful things that could be added that I can't imagine. Of course, you would have to have environmental, health and safety concerns highlighted and repeated throughout the book! I know this may sound a little out in left field, but it would help with the overall conservation of specimens and/or reduce poor, albeit, harmless results (as well as be an opportunity to make some money). Could it result in increased completion? Probably so, but those rushing head long into the wilderness probably can't be stopped anyway. And those who are inspired by the book may take a stab at it, but realize it's expensive, hard work and go back to only buying/trading/collecting. This book may exist, but I don't think so. I can think of a few books which explain etching and nickel testing, but I can't think of anything which comprehensively covers the preservation and preparation of meteorite specimens. Personally, I will always choose to buy from a handful of dealers held in high regard, who have invaluable reputations to protect (or middlemen I trust as friends I can trust). And some field hunters I know. I've decided to avoid attractive specimens of questionable pedigree, unless I'm willing to make the often expensive choice to advertise them as "believed to be XYZ specimen". So this book would not cause the big dealers to lose my (rare) business. When a "newbie" asks a question, you can point them to the "Bible". So what do you guys think? Crazy? Brilliant? (Someone with too much time on his hands tonight?) Is this an issue that's already on the IMCA "to-do" list? Is this not commercially viable? (Cricket chirping??) ;-) Clear skies, Mark From carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 15 13:58:33 2009 From: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com (Carl 's) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:58:33 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Beating a dead horse...etc. Message-ID: Hi Greg, Actually, all the dealers have been very helpful. The only one who thinks in terms of competition is Howard Steffic who I believe is not a dealer. Carl Greg Stanley wrote: >All of this is pretty amazing. First of all, we ALL were newbies at some point. Also, I think newbies buy alot of meteorites from dealers too. You never know, a newbie now may spend 1000?s of $ over the next few years. Too me it's very bad business to treat you customers poorly, or make fun of them. That?s one wat to hurt sales. I joined this list to learn from the experts; if their goal is to keep knowledge from me or look down at me, I think that's sad and very disappointing. Then all this list becomes is a marketing site. Sure, info about a new find or cold finds being confidential is understandable. But what is wrong with helping someone with payment options to a Moroccan dealer? All I can said is I only buy meteorites from certain dealers, there is a reason for that ? think about it. _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Sun Nov 15 14:05:38 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 11:05:38 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Beating a dead horse...etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: List Dealers: Please let me apologize to all the dealers who have been helpful to the "newbies." Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > From: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:58:33 -0800 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Beating a dead horse...etc. > > > Hi Greg, > > Actually, all the dealers have been very helpful. The only one who thinks in terms of competition is Howard Steffic who I believe is not a dealer. > > Carl > > > Greg Stanley wrote: >>All of this is pretty amazing. First of all, we ALL were newbies at some > point. Also, I think newbies buy alot of meteorites from dealers too. You > never know, a newbie now may spend 1000?s of $ over the next few years. Too > me it's very bad business to treat you customers poorly, or make fun of them. > That?s one wat to hurt sales. I joined this list to learn from the experts; if > their goal is to keep knowledge from me or look down at me, I think that's sad > and very disappointing. Then all this list becomes is a marketing site. Sure, > info about a new find or cold finds being confidential is understandable. But > what is wrong with helping someone with payment options to a Moroccan dealer? > All I can said is I only buy meteorites from certain dealers, there is a reason > for that ? think about it. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ From marsrox at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 14:04:54 2009 From: marsrox at gmail.com (Kevin Kichinka) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:04:54 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] "Don't Check My Bag if You Please.... Message-ID: <5bb98d570911151104l9cf7d3ate6cf93d11a9e2fc3@mail.gmail.com> ...... Mr. Customs Man." - Arlo Guthrie "Coming in from London >From over the pole Flying in a big airliner Chickens flying everywhere around the plane Could we ever feel much finer? Coming into Los Angeles Bringing in a couple of keys...." *************************************** ... of small-scale examples of the ultimate weapons of (planetary) mass destruction - meteorites. Thanks to list members, Adam, Darryl, Robert, and two Dave's for sharing their experiences while hand-carrying mets on-board domestic and international flights. After my trips to the Tucson show (last visit- sadly way back in 2002), I'd return to Florida loaded with hand-grenade-size chondrites and cannon-ball-size Irons in my hand-carried without a worry of raising threat levels of terrorists tendencies to Code Red. But in 2009, I figured that the "times they are a-changing" (Dylan). Since 2003 I've made thirty (30, yes) round trips to my home here in Tambor de Alajuela, Costa Rica. I know the rules well (subject to change without notice) even if American Airlines only emails me frequent-flyer spam offers of Jamaican vacations but can't tell me when they change a baggage allowance. If I be gellin', it's packed in a checked bag. I fly out of FLL (Fort Lauderdale) after driving two hours across Alligator Alley in a rental car from Fort Myers. There's no easy "home return" for disallowed items, i.e. bunker-busting meteorites. As I learned last June when I tried (and eventually succeeded) in bringing aboard a new quad-processor PC, even the metal-framed box used to determine the acceptability of one's carry-on bag varies airport-to-airport.... forget what's on the American Airlines website. And nothing orally represented to you on the phone means anything at the check-in counter. The computer in its flimsy box was not a carry-on weight problem, and three inches less than the 45" cubic allowance, but of the wrong height dimension. Even if I paid $100 for checking a third bag, it was impossible to check without the baggage-handlers destroying it. We worked it out when I gave my day bag to a carry-on-free passenger to hand to me once we boarded. I carried on the computer. It wasn't my idea, the American Airlines check-in lady told me to do it that way. It's not the heat, it's the stupidity. Based on list members experiences, I don't believe one can routinely transport meteorites on a plane without the threat of loss or serious hassle so 'll have to settle for visitation rights back in Florida. Or I guess I could hire DHL. Thanks for the info. ******************************************************************************** Meteorite Subject #2 While I would guess that all m-listers read the free, monthly, Meteorite Times to learn about meteorites and absorb and consider the worthy insights of its contributors, no one has yet mentioned the stellar November issue that Paul Harris has just put together. It's not to be missed. Martin Horejsi's sensitive and well-researched article on the Sudan fall "New Halfa" brings vivid color to this glossy-black, fusion crusted chondrite. Gentleman Jim Tobin's cleverly-written photo-essay of his recent Mojave adventure with best-buddy Paul takes you along as a welcome guest, ultimately blasting off for space measured in Oreo cookie kilometers. Norbert Classen posts a stunning photo of the world's largest Iron, Hoba, en sitio. Bob Verish teared me up with his well-written, intimate memoir enhanced by touching personal photos describing some quality time he spent with every one's friend, Richard. John Kashuba, offers this month a photo album of breccias, topped with NWA 2727, a mind-boggling lunar. And a tip of the sombrero to Darryl for obtaining the Indonesian ataxite Lovina. Click on Macovich.com from the Met Times opening ad page, then "Lovina", to view arguably the world's most incredible Iron. I blinked in disbelief the first time I laid eyes on it. I love Lovina. The Meteorite Times they are always a-changin', and if you read all of the issues you won't need a Weatherman to know which way the winds are a-blowin' the bolide smoke trail. Thanks to Paul and all those who donate their time to produce this wonderful contribution and help keep our meteoritic fires burning bright. Oh look, a toucan flying over my house! It's nature's way of telling me... to quit typing and go mow the lawn. >From Nine Degrees North, Kevin From azizhabibi at yahoo.com Sun Nov 15 14:21:05 2009 From: azizhabibi at yahoo.com (habibi abdelaziz) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 11:21:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Re : new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009; ; 21.25 cmt In-Reply-To: <4E70A9D8-844D-4F09-B2D9-BD5F90B272BB@mac.com> References: <485788.57286.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4E70A9D8-844D-4F09-B2D9-BD5F90B272BB@mac.com> Message-ID: <542435.88866.qm@web62002.mail.re1.yahoo.com> mahalo gary, yes its found crusty velvet and magnetic, means chondrite or what else anyway will keep you and the list updated aziz habibi ?habibi aziz box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco phone. 21235576145 fax.21235576170 ----- Message d'origine ---- De : Gary Fujihara ? : habibi abdelaziz Cc : meteorite list Envoy? le : Dim 15 Novembre 2009, 17 h 30 min 23 s Objet?: Re: [meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009;; 21.25 cmt Mahalo (thank you) Aziz for the updates of the recent fireball over Errachidia, Morocco.? Last year around this time was Tamdakht, and I am anxious to hear of any recovery of this potential new fall. gary On Nov 15, 2009, at 7:22 AM, habibi abdelaziz wrote: > hi guys > each time of this year october and november we have a fall, > it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a precise time and space with a small incertitude of a month, > > it fells over rich 20 km north est, > > ITS CONFIRMED ?? more news to fallow, > > thanks > aziz habibi > > >? habibi aziz > box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco > phone. 21235576145 > fax.21235576170 > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Gary Fujihara AstroDay Institute 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720 (808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com http://astroday.net From rlenssen at planet.nl Sun Nov 15 14:22:15 2009 From: rlenssen at planet.nl (Rob Lenssen) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:22:15 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have fallen in the NWA area this year! References: <485788.57286.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <990ED361D20F4CE58358E25F62E8D471@EIGENAARNJEQJY> Congratulations with the RICH Fall Aziz! Looking forward to the news to follow. That makes it the SECOND meteorite known to have fallen in the area this year! Remember my mail below? More info on this one will follow, after classification results (including gamma spectroscopy dating) will become final. Although a "find" (so far), first results point to an arrival at planet earth, last summer. It was found at a hundreds of kilometers distance from Rich. Best regards, Rob Lenssen http://home.planet.nl/~rlenssen/314g/314g-NWA.html http://home.planet.nl/~rlenssen/91g/91g-NWA.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rob Lenssen" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:41 PM Subject: Re: looking for classification advice for fresh find > Dear List, > > Thank you for all your on- and off-List reactions. > In general your advice is, to have it classified, including terrestrial > dating, and to try to find as much as possible information on the find of > this stone. > I also have some references now, for the isotope terrestrial age > determination. > > Thanks! > Rob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "habibi abdelaziz" To: "meteorite list" Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:22 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009;; 21.25 cmt hi guys each time of this year october and november we have a fall, it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a precise time and space with a small incertitude of a month, it fells over rich 20 km north est, ITS CONFIRMED ? more news to fallow, thanks aziz habibi habibi aziz box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco phone. 21235576145 fax.21235576170 ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From dave at fallingrocks.com Sun Nov 15 14:21:52 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:21:52 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites & Competition In-Reply-To: <4B004B43.3010202@meteoritesusa.com> References: <4AFF0271.3040801@meteoritesusa.com><557682.80472.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B004B43.3010202@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: For whatever its worth, I've disagreed with both Adam and Eric on many occasions, and I'm quite certain both have disagreed with me before as well. That said, I thought Adam's post was superb, though the semantics ("corporate involvement," to reference just one point) may have been confusing. Eric, you wrote: "if corporate involvement means losing the personality and integrity of the meteorite world through increased tampering by larger groups and politically or profit motivated companies who might in future times limit the publics access to meteorites then I'm not for that at all". Not sure who the arbiter is for such matters, but let's assume it's you. The IMCA would not exist if the integrity of the meteorite world were so pristine, and there's no use jamming up bandwidth with examples. And to think that this arena understands marketing and packaging of these rarest of rocks on Earth is, well, profoundly off base. The we have the horrifying notion of profit. Profits are derived from offering products that prospective customers need or want at a price (that exceeds the costs of providing the product) deemed a value by said prospective customers. In other words, they will, on their own volition, pay the individual or entity for the act of procuring or developing then providing said product. Of course there is corporate corruption; yet there is corruption everywhere...even in the world of meteorites (thank you IMCA for addressing that). Anyway, would such undoubtedly evil, profit-motivated entities not prefer that public (read: customers) access to meteorites, if anything, be expanded? Then you wrote: "My personal beliefs are that people should have free access to the knowledge and information that meteorites and astronomy provides." And...? Then lastly: "The word "corporate" to me means restrictive for profit..." Wikipedia? Oh, goodness... Dave www.fallingrocks.com -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Meteorites USA Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:41 PM To: Adam Hupe Cc: Adam Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites & Competition Hi Adam, I'm curios what you mean by "corporate involvement" when it concerns meteorites? With regards to the IMCA I am in partial agreement, and believe they are a good organization, and needed in this industry. But some restraint needs to be had with regard to the influence that these types of groups have. Historically speaking such groups tend to lean toward their own motives over time. There has been no organization in the history of man that has not given in, at least partially, to the temptation such influence. If you mean some sort of sponsorship of certain outreach and educational programs geared toward teaching children and young adults about astronomy and meteorites then I'm game. But if corporate involvement means losing the personality and integrity of the meteorite world through increased tampering by larger groups and politically or profit motivated companies who might in future times limit the publics access to meteorites then I'm not for that at all. This is a slippery slope... My personal beliefs are that people should have free access to the knowledge and information that meteorites and astronomy provides. The word "corporate" to me means restrictive for profit, and an example would be the corporate mentality of profit before people. I'm not necessarily referring to monetary profit, but rather to the increased influence particular groups may have over access to knowledge and information through the study of meteorites by individuals and the limited access that some scientific institutions have applied to certain collections. Collections that in my opinion every human being on the planet should have access to. Not to fondle and ogle the collection, but to view, study and learn. I'm not attacking here, I'm simply voicing a concern and my belief in the free access to knowledge that needs to be preserved. Thanks for listening... Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA Adam Hupe wrote: > Dear List, > > > I think it is crazy to talk about corporate greed and meteorites at the same time. There are much simpler ways of earning money than chasing and selling meteorites. You have to have a love for these rocks to engage at this level. The overhead is astonishing while the returns are unpredictable in an incredibly thin market. Risk management doesn't exist. > > I believe more corporate involvement is needed to push this avocation to the next level. The IMCA is a perfect example of a positive corporate influence on a mostly misunderstood hobby. What lacks the most right now is customer service and value added reselling. Most new dealers do not even polish out the saw marks on slices, let alone polish both sides. Collectors pay for both sides of a complete slice, not just one. It is disrespectful to cut a meteorite and then not complete the job. A good polish is more important for reasons beyond aesthetics. Certification is the most important aspect of collecting and is consistently lacking when dealing with meteorites. One just needs to look at coins, baseball cards and most other collectibles to see they are nearly worthless without it. > > In virtually ever other collectibles market, there are standards in place thanks to corporate interest. These days, some uninformed elements treat meteorites like commodities that are renewable. Nothing could be further from the truth. The lack of appreciation for these rarities is really on full display during these hard times. People forget that meteorites are millions of time rarer than gold that currently maintains a price of around $35.00/gram. May I remind you that now only about 1/20th the amount of meteorites by weight is all that is coming out of Moroccan compared to just five years ago according to my calculations. It will not be long before the non-available Antarctic meteorites regain the volume title once again. > > I do appreciate the real nomadic meteorite hunters from Morocco and surrounding countries. In my opinion, they are the best in world. It is what happens to meteorites after they leave the finders hands that concerns me. > > Standards, proper appreciation and corporate involvement are key to the long-term future. I see a business-like environment helping in all of these regards. Collectors deserve to have their investments protected. > > All the best, > > Adam > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From meteoritemike at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 14:03:25 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:03:25 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites & Competition In-Reply-To: <4B004B43.3010202@meteoritesusa.com> References: <4AFF0271.3040801@meteoritesusa.com> <557682.80472.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B004B43.3010202@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: Well said Eric. I agree 110%. You said it much better than I did in my reply. There are two sides to everything, especially in the realm of business. And that is a core issue here - we are not just dealing with collecting, science, or trading. There is a marriage of personal collecting, science, and business for profit at work in the meteorite world. Different people are drawn to meteorites for a wide variety of reasons. No single group can represent all of those interests. Speaking just for myself, the IMCA does not represent me, but I do appreciate the good work they do to maintain the integrity of the market. I don't like the idea of a bunch of suits sitting around a table and contriving reasons to expand their influence. Whenever that happens, the average person is one who ends up losing out. IMO, the meteorite market polices itself very well. This List is a good example of that fact - despite some of the complaints about some of the personalities involved. If a meteorite is stolen, it is announced quickly on this List. If a trader misrepresents a specimen or pulls a scam, this List will hear about it. If the scammer is an IMCA member, then there is recourse. If the scammer uses PayPal, then there is recourse. If the scammer uses eBay, then there is recourse as well. People who are dishonest in their practices are quickly labelled as such and their reputations are ruined in this small world of meteorites. I can think of at least 2 major meteorite players who have become "persona non grata" during my short time of about 2 years on this List. In addition to this List, we have at least 2 other meteorite discussion forums that are active with high traffic - and all of them are populated by IMCA and MS members (and a bunch of good folks who aren't members of either group). The same people who are not welcome on this List would find themselves unwelcome in those places as well. I do think the meteorite market needs more consistency and structure, but we don't need an invitation-only club to make the decisions. Best regards and clear skies, MikeG On 11/15/09, Meteorites USA wrote: > Hi Adam, > > I'm curios what you mean by "corporate involvement" when it concerns > meteorites? With regards to the IMCA I am in partial agreement, and > believe they are a good organization, and needed in this industry. But > some restraint needs to be had with regard to the influence that these > types of groups have. Historically speaking such groups tend to lean > toward their own motives over time. There has been no organization in > the history of man that has not given in, at least partially, to the > temptation such influence. > > If you mean some sort of sponsorship of certain outreach and educational > programs geared toward teaching children and young adults about > astronomy and meteorites then I'm game. But if corporate involvement > means losing the personality and integrity of the meteorite world > through increased tampering by larger groups and politically or profit > motivated companies who might in future times limit the publics access > to meteorites then I'm not for that at all. This is a slippery slope... > > My personal beliefs are that people should have free access to the > knowledge and information that meteorites and astronomy provides. The > word "corporate" to me means restrictive for profit, and an example > would be the corporate mentality of profit before people. I'm not > necessarily referring to monetary profit, but rather to the increased > influence particular groups may have over access to knowledge and > information through the study of meteorites by individuals and the > limited access that some scientific institutions have applied to certain > collections. Collections that in my opinion every human being on the > planet should have access to. Not to fondle and ogle the collection, but > to view, study and learn. > > I'm not attacking here, I'm simply voicing a concern and my belief in > the free access to knowledge that needs to be preserved. > > Thanks for listening... > > Regards, > Eric Wichman > Meteorites USA > > > Adam Hupe wrote: >> Dear List, >> >> >> I think it is crazy to talk about corporate greed and meteorites at the >> same time. There are much simpler ways of earning money than chasing and >> selling meteorites. You have to have a love for these rocks to engage at >> this level. The overhead is astonishing while the returns are >> unpredictable in an incredibly thin market. Risk management doesn't >> exist. >> >> I believe more corporate involvement is needed to push this avocation to >> the next level. The IMCA is a perfect example of a positive corporate >> influence on a mostly misunderstood hobby. What lacks the most right now >> is customer service and value added reselling. Most new dealers do not >> even polish out the saw marks on slices, let alone polish both sides. >> Collectors pay for both sides of a complete slice, not just one. It is >> disrespectful to cut a meteorite and then not complete the job. A good >> polish is more important for reasons beyond aesthetics. Certification is >> the most important aspect of collecting and is consistently lacking when >> dealing with meteorites. One just needs to look at coins, baseball cards >> and most other collectibles to see they are nearly worthless without it. >> >> In virtually ever other collectibles market, there are standards in place >> thanks to corporate interest. These days, some uninformed elements treat >> meteorites like commodities that are renewable. Nothing could be further >> from the truth. The lack of appreciation for these rarities is really on >> full display during these hard times. People forget that meteorites are >> millions of time rarer than gold that currently maintains a price of >> around $35.00/gram. May I remind you that now only about 1/20th the >> amount of meteorites by weight is all that is coming out of Moroccan >> compared to just five years ago according to my calculations. It will not >> be long before the non-available Antarctic meteorites regain the volume >> title once again. >> >> I do appreciate the real nomadic meteorite hunters from Morocco and >> surrounding countries. In my opinion, they are the best in world. It is >> what happens to meteorites after they leave the finders hands that >> concerns me. >> >> Standards, proper appreciation and corporate involvement are key to the >> long-term future. I see a business-like environment helping in all of >> these regards. Collectors deserve to have their investments protected. >> >> All the best, >> >> Adam >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Florida, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com FaceBook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone MySpace - http://www.myspace.com/fine_meteorites_4_sale Twitter - Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone eBay - http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/maypickle .......................................................... From astroroks at hotmail.com Sun Nov 15 14:40:58 2009 From: astroroks at hotmail.com (Dennis Miller) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:40:58 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & Competition) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Como esta? Anne and List Richard's book will always be a standard. I recently bought Caroline Smith, Sara Russell and Gretchen Benedix's new book "Meteorites". These gals "Drs" put together a great book for those with the slightest interest in meteorites. It's basic and very easy to read. Loads of great pictures too. I also like Kevin Kichinka's "The Art of Collecting Meteorites". Now, if you aren't a "Newbie" you will love McSween's "Meteorites and Their Parent Planets". I use my copy to fill up the shelf! But, what a Great Hobby, no matter what some say. Have A Great Day! Sorry Anne but, Think Snow!!! Dennis ---------------------------------------- > From: Impactika at aol.com > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:45:39 -0500 > To: minador at yahoo.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & Competition) > > Hello Mark and List, > > There is already a book that answers a lot of your questions, not all of > them, but quite a few. It is the Handbook of Meteorites by O. Richard Norton. > I certainly would recommend getting it. > > Also I would like to add one thing to the discussion about helping new > meteorite enthusiasts; It is not because you did not see a response on the List > that no help of response was sent. It is often a whole lot better to email > that person privately to ask for additional details to narrow down the > problem, or simply to protect that person from some public embarassement. I know I > probably write 50 private emails for every one posted here. > > And then we are not all always glued to our computer (believe it or not!!), > personally I have a book (about meteorites of course) to translate as > quickly as possible so it will be available in Tucson. > > And Norbert Classen and I have the dubious honor of having to answer every > question that comes in on the IMCA questions email address. Also time > consuming. > > And right now I have a whole lot of snow to shovel!!! > Have a nice day. > > Anne M. Black > _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) > _IMPACTIKA at aol.com_ (mailto:IMPACTIKA at aol.com) > Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. > _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) > > > > In a message dated 11/15/2009 8:30:51 AM Mountain Standard Time, > minador at yahoo.com writes: > Dear List, > > I think Adam has some great points. I think people forget how rare these > things are. Prices often don't reflect that. > > I think people are more likely to give advice when a "newbie" asks > something like, I've ruined several slices trying to do such & such, I've tried A > and B, what else should I do. it shows that they're paying their dues, but > need a little advice which they can probably absorb quickly, saving an > "expert's" time. The sad thing is that a few slices/specimens have been ruined > (maybe from "cheap, common NWA" material, but very rare, finite material > nonetheless). > > How do you balance the protection of trade secrets and your business vs. > the ideal of preserving this wonderful material? I suppose there are > techniques which are common in parallel fields like lapidary, which one can assume > they'll figure it out the hard way (both hard on their time/wallet but also > hard on meteorites). I would say one should be somewhat eager to help in > that case, since keeping quiet won't deter them but only make possible the > damage of more specimens. However, offering help takes precious time, busy > people lack. > > What about the possibility of a guidebook highlighting some of these > "common" things? The first person(s) with the ability to write said tome could > profit from the book sales, and many novices would benefit from the tips. > Sensitive trade secrets could be mentioned by name and the disclaimer given > that you will have to experiment at the peril of your collection and finances - > or maybe find a willing mentor. > > The book would have to be relatively comprehensive - covering the common > things which can be found in a lapidary book, but from a meteorite point of > view (there might be possibility of tips like "it's wise to practice this > technique using sandstone(?) because it approximates XYZ meteorites very well, > and you can rest assured that your learning curve isn't busting the bank"). > And it would also cover the meteorites specific topics like chemicals/oils > to avoid, etc. Maybe some explanations of the different textures you will > encounter in meteorites. Maybe a section on thin sections, epoxy plugs, and ? > > There might be room for general things like an explanation meteorite > classifications, collecting strategies, strategies for documenting a collection of > specimens, a list of common vendors, etc. There are lots of interesting, > useful things that could be added that I can't imagine. Of course, you would > have to have environmental, health and safety concerns highlighted and > repeated throughout the book! > > I know this may sound a little out in left field, but it would help with > the overall conservation of specimens and/or reduce poor, albeit, harmless > results (as well as be an opportunity to make some money). Could it result in > increased completion? Probably so, but those rushing head long into the > wilderness probably can't be stopped anyway. And those who are inspired by the > book may take a stab at it, but realize it's expensive, hard work and go > back to only buying/trading/collecting. This book may exist, but I don't > think so. I can think of a few books which explain etching and nickel testing, > but I can't think of anything which comprehensively covers the preservation > and preparation of meteorite specimens. > > Personally, I will always choose to buy from a handful of dealers held in > high regard, who have invaluable reputations to protect (or middlemen I trust > as friends I can trust). And some field hunters I know. I've decided to > avoid attractive specimens of questionable pedigree, unless I'm willing to > make the often expensive choice to advertise them as "believed to be XYZ > specimen". So this book would not cause the big dealers to lose my (rare) > business. When a "newbie" asks a question, you can point them to the "Bible". > > So what do you guys think? Crazy? Brilliant? (Someone with too much time > on his hands tonight?) Is this an issue that's already on the IMCA "to-do" > list? Is this not commercially viable? > > (Cricket chirping??) ;-) > > Clear skies, > Mark > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 From oxytropidoceras at cox.net Sun Nov 15 14:46:30 2009 From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net (oxytropidoceras at cox.net) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:46:30 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Observations on Age of Carolina Bays Message-ID: <20091115144630.GAX72.971698.imail@eastrmwml44> As I will discuss in a paper that I am preparing, Carolina Bays are not at all difficult to date in terms of their age relative to the Younger Dryas as documented in a number of published, peer- reviewed papers and specific Cultural Resource Management reports. There is a huge amount of information available about either the age or relative age of the Carolina Bays to be found by carefully and persistently digging through the large number of publications about them and the geomorphology of the Atlantic coastal plain. 1. Radiocarbon dates, which are all minimum dates indicating when ground water conditions allowed the preservation of organic material within them. All the basal dates tells a person is the last time that a bay was permanently filled with water because of rising groundwater table, which is greatly influenced by rises and falls in eustatic sea level. Despite the fact that the radiocarbon dates are only minimum dates, they clearly demonstrate that the Carolina Bays predate the Younger Dryas event. 2. optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) dating is now a well established and proven dating method, which gives credible dates for the age of these landforms. A person might argued for mxing of older and younger sand, except that Dr. Ivester, whom I personally discussed this matter with on the GSA 2008 Meeting sand mantle, biomantle, mima mound field trip told me that he did not find the anomalies in the raw data for his dates that such mixing would create. Also, a person can always use single-grain OSL dating to unequivocally test for such mixing. Given that Dr. Ivester is a very experienced Quaternary geologist, the claim he dated the wrong material, in my opinion is the type of lame excuse that I hear from Young Earth creationists when the data refutes what they want to believe is the truth. If a person is going to make this claim, they need to back it up with hard and well-documented facts for it to be credible in any manner at all. 3. the pollen records from several Carolina Bays clearly go back to the last Glacial Maximum and in one bay, back to Oxygen Isotope Stage 5a. In many more Carolina Bays, the paleoenvironmental records start during full glacial conditions, several thousands of years before the hypothesized Younger Dryas event. Common sense and basic stratigraphic principles dictate that the Carolina Bays containing these records existed before any hypothesized Younger Dryas events as it is physically impossible for any sort of exterrestrial event / impact to create craters thousands of years before it occurs. It is impossible for mixing of sediment to have produced these records as the paleoenvironmental records recovered from Carolina Bays correlate precisely in time and nature to palynological records from non-Carolina Bay lakes and swamps in the same area as a Carolina Bay. 4. Cross-cutting relationships between well dated fluvial terraces (lacking Carolina Bays) cut and inset into older terraces and the Carolina Bays they exhibit establish the minimum age of Carolina Bays. Similarly the superposition dunes fields, which formed during the Late Glacial Maximum and lacking Carolina Bays, upon Carolina Bays that they partial bury, establish the preYounger Dryas age of the Carolina Bays. Both cross-cutting relationships and superposition is documented in great detail by LIDAR DEMs available for large parts of the Atlantic Coast. 5. Stratified archaeological sites demonstrates how Carolina Bays have been modified after the Younger Dryas. Carolina Bays on restricted government reservations indicate how historic argriculture and urban development have modified Carolina Bays during the last few decades by comparison. 6. All the presence of hypothesized impactites filling the Carolina Bays indicates is that preexisting Carolina Bays was filled by material from this hypothesized impact. The presence of hypothetical impactites within the loose soils of coastal plain sands forming the rim of Carolina Bays indicate is that bioturbation mixed material falling on the surface of into the loose sand forming the rims. The churning of surface materials deep into thick sandy epipedons is a well documented and well known process. 7. In the northern extent of the distribution of Carolina Bays, their orientation varies by over 120 degrees and based upon cross-cutting relationships and great differences in the degree of degradation of their rims strong indication of multiple generations of Carolina Bays having formed at greatly different time. The claim by Firestone that both the Carolina Bays and playa and other lakes point at a central point is based him having overlooked a significant amount of orientation data that both subtly and grossly contradicts and ultimately refutes this claim of his. 8. Although it is still in the realm of speculation, there appears to be evidence that indicates that the Carolina Bays in the Midlothian area are much older than the typical Carolina Bays that are found on Pleistocene coast-wise terraces. In my opinion, As far as the Carolina Bays are concerned, they are a nothing more than a time-consuming red herring of gigantic proportions. Even if the Carolina Bays are impact features of some sort, they clearly are much too old be connected in anyway with a Younger Dryas event. I am not going into references and figures because I am pulling this all together into a paper that I am working and will submit to a journal that I know will both welcome it and have it rigerously peer-reviewed. Before submitting it, I will also have two or three select people review it. Yours, Paul H. From mikewren at gilanet.com Sun Nov 15 12:33:38 2009 From: mikewren at gilanet.com (michael cottingham) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:33:38 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009; ; 21.25 cmt In-Reply-To: <485788.57286.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <485788.57286.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2D191C6D-DEE7-47E0-BB3C-251F1B59FDD1@gilanet.com> That is Great News!!!! Go Get em! Michael Cottingham On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:22 AM, habibi abdelaziz wrote: > hi guys > each time of this year october and november we have a fall, > it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a > precise time and space with a small incertitude of a month, > > it fells over rich 20 km north est, > > ITS CONFIRMED ? more news to fallow, > > thanks > aziz habibi > > > habibi > aziz > box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco > phone. 21235576145 > fax.21235576170 > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From rob at nakhladogmeteorites.com Sun Nov 15 15:11:20 2009 From: rob at nakhladogmeteorites.com (Rob Wesel) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:11:20 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - Two museum pieces ending today Message-ID: <9450064CF94347D890BA7E39250789B7@windows9bb74fe> Hello all Just two pieces this week Don't be afraid to "best offer" the 2kg Brenham http://shop.ebay.com/nakhladog/m.html Rob Wesel www.nakhladogmeteorites.com www.facebook.com/nakhladog ------------------ We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of the dreams. Willy Wonka, 1971 From majbaermann at web.de Sun Nov 15 15:33:54 2009 From: majbaermann at web.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Matthias_B=E4rmann?=) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 21:33:54 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - Two museum pieces ending today References: <9450064CF94347D890BA7E39250789B7@windows9bb74fe> Message-ID: <8B9B70A177F74DFDBE9F0219583FF040@thinkcentre> Hello Rob, your impact melt slice "starry night": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkvLq0TYiwI and http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/VanGogh-starry_night.jpg Best, Matthias B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Wesel" To: "Meteorite List" Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:11 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - Two museum pieces ending today > Hello all > > Just two pieces this week > Don't be afraid to "best offer" the 2kg Brenham > > http://shop.ebay.com/nakhladog/m.html > > Rob Wesel > www.nakhladogmeteorites.com > www.facebook.com/nakhladog > ------------------ > We are the music makers... > and we are the dreamers of the dreams. > Willy Wonka, 1971 > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From mafer at imagineopals.com Sun Nov 15 15:38:41 2009 From: mafer at imagineopals.com (mafer at imagineopals.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:38:41 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites & Competition In-Reply-To: References: <4AFF0271.3040801@meteoritesusa.com> <557682.80472.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B004B43.3010202@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: I liked the comment about suits siting around a board table like is done with oil and gold. That is such an one sided way of doing commerce (some old fuddy siting at a table with his country's flag in his hand agreeing to pay x dollars for a commodity that he makes so much anyway, he could care less how it affects those at the bottom of the wage scales, where is the free enterprise, yet men just like this run our lives. Keeping that mentality out of meteorites goes a long long way, and dealing with the principles (those who actually find the meteorites) will do more for keeping the science and hobby alive than most could see. I find it harsh and wrong to pay a middleman a high price when he has undercut or misled the finder. By the same token, without some middlemen, we wouldn't have many finds and they would have been dumped on the ground as a waste of time and the strewn field forgotten about. Keeping things real and in perspective are important. Mark Ferguson On November 15, 7:03 pm "Galactic Stone & Ironworks" wrote: > Well said Eric. I agree 110%. > > You said it much better than I did in my reply. > > There are two sides to everything, especially in the realm of > business. And that is a core issue here - we are not just dealing > with collecting, science, or trading. There is a marriage of > personal collecting, science, and business for profit at work in the > meteorite world. Different people are drawn to meteorites for a wide > variety of reasons. No single group can represent all of those > interests. Speaking just for myself, the IMCA does not represent me, > but I do appreciate the good work they do to maintain the integrity of > the market. > > I don't like the idea of a bunch of suits sitting around a table and > contriving reasons to expand their influence. Whenever that happens, > the average person is one who ends up losing out. IMO, the meteorite > market polices itself very well. This List is a good example of that > fact - despite some of the complaints about some of the personalities > involved. If a meteorite is stolen, it is announced quickly on this > List. If a trader misrepresents a specimen or pulls a scam, this List > will hear about it. If the scammer is an IMCA member, then there is > recourse. If the scammer uses PayPal, then there is recourse. If the > scammer uses eBay, then there is recourse as well. People who are > dishonest in their practices are quickly labelled as such and their > reputations are ruined in this small world of meteorites. I can > think of at least 2 major meteorite players who have become "persona > non grata" during my short time of about 2 years on this List. In > addition to this List, we have at least 2 other meteorite discussion > forums that are active with high traffic - and all of them are > populated by IMCA and MS members (and a bunch of good folks who aren't > members of either group). The same people who are not welcome on this > List would find themselves unwelcome in those places as well. > > I do think the meteorite market needs more consistency and structure, > but we don't need an invitation-only club to make the decisions. > > Best regards and clear skies, > > MikeG > > > > > > > > On 11/15/09, Meteorites USA wrote: > > Hi Adam, > > > > I'm curios what you mean by "corporate involvement" when it > > concerns meteorites? With regards to the IMCA I am in partial > > agreement, and believe they are a good organization, and needed in > > this industry. But some restraint needs to be had with regard to > > the influence that these types of groups have. Historically > > speaking such groups tend to lean toward their own motives over > > time. There has been no organization in the history of man that > > has not given in, at least partially, to the temptation such > > influence. > > If you mean some sort of sponsorship of certain outreach and > > educational programs geared toward teaching children and young > > adults about astronomy and meteorites then I'm game. But if > > corporate involvement means losing the personality and integrity > > of the meteorite world through increased tampering by larger > > groups and politically or profit motivated companies who might in > > future times limit the publics access to meteorites then I'm not > > for that at all. This is a slippery slope... > > My personal beliefs are that people should have free access to the > > knowledge and information that meteorites and astronomy provides. > > The word "corporate" to me means restrictive for profit, and an > > example would be the corporate mentality of profit before people. > > I'm not necessarily referring to monetary profit, but rather to > > the increased influence particular groups may have over access to > > knowledge and information through the study of meteorites by > > individuals and the limited access that some scientific > > institutions have applied to certain collections. Collections that > > in my opinion every human being on the planet should have access > > to. Not to fondle and ogle the collection, but to view, study and > > learn. > > I'm not attacking here, I'm simply voicing a concern and my belief > > in the free access to knowledge that needs to be preserved. > > > > Thanks for listening... > > > > Regards, > > Eric Wichman > > Meteorites USA > > > > > > Adam Hupe wrote: > >> Dear List, > >> > >> > >> I think it is crazy to talk about corporate greed and meteorites > >> at the same time. There are much simpler ways of earning money > >> than chasing and selling meteorites. You have to have a love for > >> these rocks to engage at this level. The overhead is astonishing > >> while the returns are unpredictable in an incredibly thin market. > >> Risk management doesn't exist. > >> > >> I believe more corporate involvement is needed to push this > >> avocation to the next level. The IMCA is a perfect example of a > >> positive corporate influence on a mostly misunderstood hobby. > >> What lacks the most right now is customer service and value added > >> reselling. Most new dealers do not even polish out the saw marks > >> on slices, let alone polish both sides. Collectors pay for both > >> sides of a complete slice, not just one. It is disrespectful to > >> cut a meteorite and then not complete the job. A good polish is > >> more important for reasons beyond aesthetics. Certification is > >> the most important aspect of collecting and is consistently > >> lacking when dealing with meteorites. One just needs to look at coins, > >> baseball cards and most other collectibles to see they are nearly > >> worthless without it. > >> In virtually ever other collectibles market, there are standards > >> in place thanks to corporate interest. These days, some > >> uninformed elements treat meteorites like commodities that are > >> renewable. Nothing could be further from the truth. The lack of > >> appreciation for these rarities is really on full display during > >> these hard times. People forget that meteorites are millions of > >> time rarer than gold that currently maintains a price of around > >> $35.00/gram. May I remind you that now only about 1/20th the > >> amount of meteorites by weight is all that is coming out of > >> Moroccan compared to just five years ago according to my calculations. > >> It will not be long before the non-available Antarctic meteorites > >> regain the volume title once again. > >> > >> I do appreciate the real nomadic meteorite hunters from Morocco > >> and surrounding countries. In my opinion, they are the best in > >> world. It is what happens to meteorites after they leave the > >> finders hands that concerns me. > >> > >> Standards, proper appreciation and corporate involvement are key > >> to the long-term future. I see a business-like environment > >> helping in all of these regards. Collectors deserve to have > >> their investments protected. > >> All the best, > >> > >> Adam > >> ______________________________________________ > >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> > >> > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > -- > ......................................................... > Michael Gilmer (Florida, USA) > Member of the Meteoritical Society. > Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com > FaceBook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone > MySpace - http://www.myspace.com/fine_meteorites_4_sale > Twitter - Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone > eBay - http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/maypickle > .......................................................... > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From eric at meteoritesusa.com Sun Nov 15 15:44:21 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:44:21 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites & Competition In-Reply-To: References: <4AFF0271.3040801@meteoritesusa.com><557682.80472.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B004B43.3010202@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: <4B006825.6000300@meteoritesusa.com> Hi Dave, List, Adam and all who care, Let me be absolutely clear in my statement and meaning so as no to confuse anyone about my beliefs and views on the IMCA, corporations, profit, and the influence that such entities have on the meteorite world and access to the knowledge it provides people about our universe. Profit is not always monetary. In fact profit can be and is power and influence based on what the intrinsic cost of input versus what's returned, whether that be a trade in time investment, or a tangible product. Everything has value, and more importantly that perceived value is what makes the world go round. I support the IMCA and what they stand for and have respect and admiration for the people who created it and work hard to build it everyday. I have many friends and business colleagues who are members of the IMCA and members of the board. I have been invited many times to become a member and have politely and respectfully declined to join at this time. This is not to say that I will not ever become a member, nor does it say that I dislike the IMCA at all or even worse, view them in a negative light, which I do not. I am NOT an arbiter for corporate sponsorship, or the IMCA, nor do I subscribe to the view that anyone should be. The integrity of the meteorite world is based upon the integrity of individuals within this community, and NOT any one group. Your statement Dave: "...'The word "corporate" to me means restrictive for profit...'..." Wikipedia? Oh, goodness..." No, that's not Wikipedia at all, that's my view, and just what I said it was. ;) There is nothing horrifying about profit, and if I understand your post correctly and if you were simply being facetious, I would agree. The issue is not profit, the issue is about at the very least the temptation of influencing restrictive rules or guidelines that limits public access to knowledge and physical display of specimens. "...Then you wrote: "My personal beliefs are that people should have free access to the knowledge and information that meteorites and astronomy provides." And...? ..." To answer your simple question, I will give a simple answer. I've already said it. Don't limit or restrict access or use the power and influence of a group to control something which should be freely available knowledge. Let other enjoy the meteorites too... Share. This has all been hashed out in the past, and I'm not trying to bring something up that's already been discussed at length, I'm not attacking anyone or any group, I'm simply saying I don't like group power because they tend to forget about the little guy, whether it be purposefully or by unintentional means. Respectfully of course... Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA Dave Gheesling wrote: > For whatever its worth, I've disagreed with both Adam and Eric on many > occasions, and I'm quite certain both have disagreed with me before as well. > That said, I thought Adam's post was superb, though the semantics > ("corporate involvement," to reference just one point) may have been > confusing. > > Eric, you wrote: "if corporate involvement means losing the personality and > integrity of the meteorite world through increased tampering by larger > groups and politically or profit motivated companies who might in future > times limit the publics access to meteorites then I'm not for that at all". > > Not sure who the arbiter is for such matters, but let's assume it's you. > The IMCA would not exist if the integrity of the meteorite world were so > pristine, and there's no use jamming up bandwidth with examples. And to > think that this arena understands marketing and packaging of these rarest of > rocks on Earth is, well, profoundly off base. > > The we have the horrifying notion of profit. Profits are derived from > offering products that prospective customers need or want at a price (that > exceeds the costs of providing the product) deemed a value by said > prospective customers. In other words, they will, on their own volition, > pay the individual or entity for the act of procuring or developing then > providing said product. Of course there is corporate corruption; yet there > is corruption everywhere...even in the world of meteorites (thank you IMCA > for addressing that). Anyway, would such undoubtedly evil, profit-motivated > entities not prefer that public (read: customers) access to meteorites, if > anything, be expanded? > > Then you wrote: "My personal beliefs are that people should have free access > to the knowledge and information that meteorites and astronomy provides." > > And...? > > Then lastly: "The word "corporate" to me means restrictive for profit..." > > Wikipedia? > > Oh, goodness... > > Dave > www.fallingrocks.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Meteorites > USA > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:41 PM > To: Adam Hupe > Cc: Adam > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites & Competition > > Hi Adam, > > I'm curios what you mean by "corporate involvement" when it concerns > meteorites? With regards to the IMCA I am in partial agreement, and believe > they are a good organization, and needed in this industry. But some > restraint needs to be had with regard to the influence that these types of > groups have. Historically speaking such groups tend to lean toward their own > motives over time. There has been no organization in the history of man that > has not given in, at least partially, to the temptation such influence. > > If you mean some sort of sponsorship of certain outreach and educational > programs geared toward teaching children and young adults about astronomy > and meteorites then I'm game. But if corporate involvement means losing the > personality and integrity of the meteorite world through increased tampering > by larger groups and politically or profit motivated companies who might in > future times limit the publics access to meteorites then I'm not for that at > all. This is a slippery slope... > > My personal beliefs are that people should have free access to the knowledge > and information that meteorites and astronomy provides. The word "corporate" > to me means restrictive for profit, and an example would be the corporate > mentality of profit before people. I'm not necessarily referring to monetary > profit, but rather to the increased influence particular groups may have > over access to knowledge and information through the study of meteorites by > individuals and the limited access that some scientific institutions have > applied to certain collections. Collections that in my opinion every human > being on the planet should have access to. Not to fondle and ogle the > collection, but to view, study and learn. > > I'm not attacking here, I'm simply voicing a concern and my belief in the > free access to knowledge that needs to be preserved. > > Thanks for listening... > > Regards, > Eric Wichman > Meteorites USA > > > Adam Hupe wrote: > >> Dear List, >> >> >> I think it is crazy to talk about corporate greed and meteorites at the >> > same time. There are much simpler ways of earning money than chasing and > selling meteorites. You have to have a love for these rocks to engage at > this level. The overhead is astonishing while the returns are unpredictable > in an incredibly thin market. Risk management doesn't exist. > >> I believe more corporate involvement is needed to push this avocation to >> > the next level. The IMCA is a perfect example of a positive corporate > influence on a mostly misunderstood hobby. What lacks the most right now is > customer service and value added reselling. Most new dealers do not even > polish out the saw marks on slices, let alone polish both sides. Collectors > pay for both sides of a complete slice, not just one. It is disrespectful to > cut a meteorite and then not complete the job. A good polish is more > important for reasons beyond aesthetics. Certification is the most important > aspect of collecting and is consistently lacking when dealing with > meteorites. One just needs to look at coins, baseball cards and most other > collectibles to see they are nearly worthless without it. > >> In virtually ever other collectibles market, there are standards in place >> > thanks to corporate interest. These days, some uninformed elements treat > meteorites like commodities that are renewable. Nothing could be further > from the truth. The lack of appreciation for these rarities is really on > full display during these hard times. People forget that meteorites are > millions of time rarer than gold that currently maintains a price of around > $35.00/gram. May I remind you that now only about 1/20th the amount of > meteorites by weight is all that is coming out of Moroccan compared to just > five years ago according to my calculations. It will not be long before the > non-available Antarctic meteorites regain the volume title once again. > >> I do appreciate the real nomadic meteorite hunters from Morocco and >> > surrounding countries. In my opinion, they are the best in world. It is > what happens to meteorites after they leave the finders hands that concerns > me. > >> Standards, proper appreciation and corporate involvement are key to the >> > long-term future. I see a business-like environment helping in all of these > regards. Collectors deserve to have their investments protected. > >> All the best, >> >> Adam >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> >> > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > From spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 15 15:46:48 2009 From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com (Melanie Matthews) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:46:48 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have fallen in the NWA area this year! In-Reply-To: <990ED361D20F4CE58358E25F62E8D471@EIGENAARNJEQJY> References: <485788.57286.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <990ED361D20F4CE58358E25F62E8D471 at EIGENAARNJEQJY> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Very fresh=2C great stuff!=20 ----------- Melanie IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what= you're gonna get! ---------------------------------------- > From: rlenssen at planet.nl > To: azizhabibi at yahoo.com=3B Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sun=2C 15 Nov 2009 20:22:15 +0100 > Subject: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have falle= n in the NWA area this year! > > Congratulations with the RICH Fall Aziz! > Looking forward to the news to follow. > > That makes it the SECOND meteorite known to have fallen in the area this > year! > > Remember my mail below? > More info on this one will follow=2C after classification results (includ= ing > gamma spectroscopy dating) will become final. > Although a "find" (so far)=2C first results point to an arrival at planet > earth=2C last summer. It was found at a hundreds of kilometers distance f= rom > Rich. > > Best regards=2C > Rob Lenssen > http://home.planet.nl/~rlenssen/314g/314g-NWA.html > http://home.planet.nl/~rlenssen/91g/91g-NWA.html > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------- > From: "Rob Lenssen"=20 > To:=20 > Sent: Wednesday=2C August 19=2C 2009 8:41 PM > Subject: Re: looking for classification advice for fresh find > > >> Dear List=2C >> >> Thank you for all your on- and off-List reactions. >> In general your advice is=2C to have it classified=2C including terrestr= ial >> dating=2C and to try to find as much as possible information on the find= of >> this stone. >> I also have some references now=2C for the isotope terrestrial age >> determination. >> >> Thanks! >> Rob > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "habibi abdelaziz"=20 > To: "meteorite list"=20 > Sent: Sunday=2C November 15=2C 2009 6:22 PM > Subject: [meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009=3B=3B 21.25 c= mt > > > hi guys > each time of this year october and november we have a fall=2C > it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a precise tim= e > and space with a small incertitude of a month=2C > > it fells over rich 20 km north est=2C > > ITS CONFIRMED ? more news to fallow=2C > > thanks > aziz habibi > > > habibi aziz > box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco > phone. 21235576145 > fax.21235576170 > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list =20 _________________________________________________________________ Eligible CDN College & University students can upgrade to Windows 7 before = Jan 3 for only $39.99. Upgrade now! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D9691819= From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Sun Nov 15 15:50:44 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:50:44 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have fallen in the NWA area this year! In-Reply-To: References: <485788.57286.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: does anyone know why this extra text appears in some emails? (ie Melanie's email below) ---------------------------------------- > From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com > To: rlenssen at planet.nl; azizhabibi at yahoo.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:46:48 -0800 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have fallen in the NWA area this year! > > > <990ED361D20F4CE58358E25F62E8D471 at EIGENAARNJEQJY> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > Very fresh=2C great stuff!=20 > > > ----------- > Melanie > IMCA: 2975 > eBay: metmel2775 > Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 > > Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what= > you're gonna get! > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------- >> From: rlenssen at planet.nl >> To: azizhabibi at yahoo.com=3B Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Date: Sun=2C 15 Nov 2009 20:22:15 +0100 >> Subject: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have falle= > n in the NWA area this year! >> >> Congratulations with the RICH Fall Aziz! >> Looking forward to the news to follow. >> >> That makes it the SECOND meteorite known to have fallen in the area this >> year! >> >> Remember my mail below? >> More info on this one will follow=2C after classification results (includ= > ing >> gamma spectroscopy dating) will become final. >> Although a "find" (so far)=2C first results point to an arrival at planet >> earth=2C last summer. It was found at a hundreds of kilometers distance f= > rom >> Rich. >> >> Best regards=2C >> Rob Lenssen >> http://home.planet.nl/~rlenssen/314g/314g-NWA.html >> http://home.planet.nl/~rlenssen/91g/91g-NWA.html >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------------------------------- >> From: "Rob Lenssen"=20 >> To:=20 >> Sent: Wednesday=2C August 19=2C 2009 8:41 PM >> Subject: Re: looking for classification advice for fresh find >> >> >>> Dear List=2C >>> >>> Thank you for all your on- and off-List reactions. >>> In general your advice is=2C to have it classified=2C including terrestr= > ial >>> dating=2C and to try to find as much as possible information on the find= > of >>> this stone. >>> I also have some references now=2C for the isotope terrestrial age >>> determination. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> Rob >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------------------------------- >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "habibi abdelaziz"=20 >> To: "meteorite list"=20 >> Sent: Sunday=2C November 15=2C 2009 6:22 PM >> Subject: [meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009=3B=3B 21.25 c= > mt >> >> >> hi guys >> each time of this year october and november we have a fall=2C >> it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a precise tim= > e >> and space with a small incertitude of a month=2C >> >> it fells over rich 20 km north est=2C >> >> ITS CONFIRMED ? more news to fallow=2C >> >> thanks >> aziz habibi >> >> >> habibi aziz >> box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco >> phone. 21235576145 >> fax.21235576170 >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > =20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Eligible CDN College & University students can upgrade to Windows 7 before = > Jan 3 for only $39.99. Upgrade now! > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D9691819= > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From mafer at imagineopals.com Sun Nov 15 15:20:32 2009 From: mafer at imagineopals.com (mafer at imagineopals.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:20:32 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009; ; 21.25 cmt In-Reply-To: <2D191C6D-DEE7-47E0-BB3C-251F1B59FDD1@gilanet.com> References: <485788.57286.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <2D191C6D-DEE7-47E0-BB3C-251F1B59FDD1@gilanet.com> Message-ID: could there be a "cloud" of objects that Earth's orbit flys through? On November 15, 5:33 pm michael cottingham wrote: > That is Great News!!!! Go Get em! > > Michael Cottingham > On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:22 AM, habibi abdelaziz wrote: > > > hi guys > > each time of this year october and november we have a fall, > > it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a > > precise time and space with a small incertitude of a month, > > > > it fells over rich 20 km north est, > > > > ITS CONFIRMED ? more news to fallow, > > > > thanks > > aziz habibi > > > > > > habibi aziz > > box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco > > phone. 21235576145 > > fax.21235576170 > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From astroroks at hotmail.com Sun Nov 15 16:00:37 2009 From: astroroks at hotmail.com (Dennis Miller) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:00:37 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have fallen in the NWA area this year! In-Reply-To: References: <485788.57286.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com>, , , Message-ID: Greg, You, Melanie, me, and others are cursed with "Hotmail" crap. I find this happens with plain text, rich text, any text. I don't see this happening with any other email service. Dennis > From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com > To: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com; rlenssen at planet.nl; azizhabibi at yahoo.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:50:44 -0800 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have fallen in the NWA area this year! > > > does anyone know why this extra text appears in some emails? (ie Melanie's email below) > > ---------------------------------------- >> From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com >> To: rlenssen at planet.nl; azizhabibi at yahoo.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:46:48 -0800 >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have fallen in the NWA area this year! >> >> >> <990ED361D20F4CE58358E25F62E8D471 at EIGENAARNJEQJY> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> >> >> Very fresh=2C great stuff!=20 >> >> >> ----------- >> Melanie >> IMCA: 2975 >> eBay: metmel2775 >> Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 >> >> Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what= >> you're gonna get! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------- >>> From: rlenssen at planet.nl >>> To: azizhabibi at yahoo.com=3B Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> Date: Sun=2C 15 Nov 2009 20:22:15 +0100 >>> Subject: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have falle= >> n in the NWA area this year! >>> >>> Congratulations with the RICH Fall Aziz! >>> Looking forward to the news to follow. >>> >>> That makes it the SECOND meteorite known to have fallen in the area this >>> year! >>> >>> Remember my mail below? >>> More info on this one will follow=2C after classification results (includ= >> ing >>> gamma spectroscopy dating) will become final. >>> Although a "find" (so far)=2C first results point to an arrival at planet >>> earth=2C last summer. It was found at a hundreds of kilometers distance f= >> rom >>> Rich. >>> >>> Best regards=2C >>> Rob Lenssen >>> http://home.planet.nl/~rlenssen/314g/314g-NWA.html >>> http://home.planet.nl/~rlenssen/91g/91g-NWA.html >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= >> ------------------------------- >>> From: "Rob Lenssen"=20 >>> To:=20 >>> Sent: Wednesday=2C August 19=2C 2009 8:41 PM >>> Subject: Re: looking for classification advice for fresh find >>> >>> >>>> Dear List=2C >>>> >>>> Thank you for all your on- and off-List reactions. >>>> In general your advice is=2C to have it classified=2C including terrestr= >> ial >>>> dating=2C and to try to find as much as possible information on the find= >> of >>>> this stone. >>>> I also have some references now=2C for the isotope terrestrial age >>>> determination. >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> Rob >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= >> ------------------------------- >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "habibi abdelaziz"=20 >>> To: "meteorite list"=20 >>> Sent: Sunday=2C November 15=2C 2009 6:22 PM >>> Subject: [meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009=3B=3B 21.25 c= >> mt >>> >>> >>> hi guys >>> each time of this year october and november we have a fall=2C >>> it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a precise tim= >> e >>> and space with a small incertitude of a month=2C >>> >>> it fells over rich 20 km north est=2C >>> >>> ITS CONFIRMED ? more news to fallow=2C >>> >>> thanks >>> aziz habibi >>> >>> >>> habibi aziz >>> box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco >>> phone. 21235576145 >>> fax.21235576170 >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> =20 >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Eligible CDN College & University students can upgrade to Windows 7 before = >> Jan 3 for only $39.99. Upgrade now! >> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D9691819= >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From rmforall at comcast.net Sun Nov 15 17:12:26 2009 From: rmforall at comcast.net (Rich Murray) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:12:26 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Observations on Age of Carolina Bays: Paul H: Rich Murray 2009.11.15 In-Reply-To: <20091115144630.GAX72.971698.imail@eastrmwml44> References: <20091115144630.GAX72.971698.imail@eastrmwml44> Message-ID: Re: [meteorite-list] Observations on Age of Carolina Bays: Paul H: Rich Murray 2009.11.15 http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.htm Sunday, November 15, 2009 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/astrodeep/message/32 Hello all, I am very appreciative of Paul's conscientious, careful contributions, based on civility, reason, and public evidence. Will there be many confirmations of ET markers in classic Carolina Bays? And in similar clusters in many parts of the world? Will a single place and time be found for a single or multiple sources, or multiple sources with multiple places and times? Are data already available for mineral elements and isotopes at classic and possible Carolina Bay type craters? I find cracked, broken, overturned, and tossed bedrocks up to 2 m size at many craters near Santa Fe, New Mexico. Many of these rocks have white, grey, greenish, red-brown, and black glazes or coatings, from 0.1 to 10 cm thick, even curled around the edge of bedrock layers for 10 cm, often with rough surface textures with little wind or water erosion. Also ordinary white quartz rocks up to 20 cm, glazed on one side with what appears as 0.2 to 3 cm melted quartz, sometimes with a yellow tinge. And 3 m thick level sandstone layers, exposed roadcuts about 30 m above the landscape, that have up to 10 cm white and gray mineral layers that appear to have been plastered on the vertical surfaces. I will glad to show visitors my samples, and to give tours of accessible sites -- many right beside public roads. I will be happy to search for sites with Google Earth for free within 80 km of any location, so they can be studied by those who live near the center coordinates. Best, Rich Murray exact Carolina Bay crater locations, RB Firestone, A West, et al, two YD reviews, 2008 June, 2009 Nov, also 3 upcoming abstracts: Rich Murray 2009.11.14 http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.htm Saturday, November 14, 2009 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/astrodeep/message/31 nanodiamond evidence for 12,900 BP Clovis extinction impact, Santa Rosa Island, discussion on Scientific American website, Carolina Bay type craters east of Las Vegas, NM: Rich Murray 2009.09.15 http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_06_01_archive.htm Friday, July 24, 2009 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AstroDeep/28 widespread Carolina Bay type craters from Clovis comet 12,900 Ya BP? -- 0.7 M long NS crater with fractured red sandstone on SW rim, CR C 53A, 20 miles E of Las Vegas, NM: Rich Murray 2009.06.08 http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_06_01_archive.htm Monday, June 8, 2009 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AstroDeep/27 _____________________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:46 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Observations on Age of Carolina Bays ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing listis Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list As I will discuss in a paper that I am preparing, Carolina Bays are not at all difficult to date in terms of their age relative to the Younger Dryas as documented in a number of published, peer- reviewed papers and specific Cultural Resource Management reports. There is a huge amount of information available about either the age or relative age of the Carolina Bays to be found by carefully and persistently digging through the large number of publications about them and the geomorphology of the Atlantic coastal plain. 1. Radiocarbon dates are all minimum dates indicating when ground water conditions allowed the preservation of organic material within them. All the basal dates tells a person is the last time that a bay was permanently filled with water because of a rising groundwater table, which is greatly influenced by rises and falls in eustatic sea level. Despite the fact that the radiocarbon dates are only minimum dates, they clearly demonstrate that the Carolina Bays predate the Younger Dryas event. 2. Optically Stimulated Luminescence (OSL) dating is now a well established and proven dating method, which gives credible dates for the age of these landforms. A person might argued for mxing of older and younger sand, except that Dr. Ivester, whom I personally discussed this matter with on the GSA 2008 Meeting sand mantle, biomantle, mima mound field trip told me that he did not find the anomalies in the raw data for his dates that such mixing would create. Also, a person can always use single-grain OSL dating to unequivocally test for such mixing. Given that Dr. Ivester is a very experienced Quaternary geologist, the claim he dated the wrong material, in my opinion is the type of lame excuse that I hear from Young Earth creationists when the data refutes what they want to believe is the truth. If a person is going to make this claim, they need to back it up with hard and well-documented facts for it to be credible in any manner at all. 3. The pollen records from several Carolina Bays clearly go back to the last Glacial Maximum and in one bay, back to Oxygen Isotope Stage 5a. In many more Carolina Bays, the paleoenvironmental records start during full glacial conditions, several thousands of years before the hypothesized Younger Dryas event. Common sense and basic stratigraphic principles dictate that the Carolina Bays containing these records existed before any hypothesized Younger Dryas events, as it is physically impossible for any sort of exterrestrial event / impact to create craters thousands of years before it occurs. It is impossible for mixing of sediment to have produced these records, as the paleoenvironmental records recovered from Carolina Bays correlate precisely in time and nature to palynological records from non-Carolina Bay lakes and swamps in the same area as a Carolina Bay. 4. Cross-cutting relationships between well dated fluvial terraces (lacking Carolina Bays) cut and inset into older terraces and the Carolina Bays they exhibit establish the minimum age of Carolina Bays. Similarly the superposition dunes fields, which formed during the Late Glacial Maximum and lacking Carolina Bays, upon Carolina Bays that they partial bury, establish the pre-Younger Dryas age of the Carolina Bays. Both cross-cutting relationships and superposition are documented in great detail by LIDAR DEMs available for large parts of the Atlantic Coast. 5. Stratified archaeological sites demonstrate how Carolina Bays have been modified after the Younger Dryas. Carolina Bays on restricted government reservations indicate how historic argriculture and urban development have modified Carolina Bays during the last few decades by comparison. 6. All the presence of hypothesized impactites filling the Carolina Bays indicates is that preexisting Carolina Bays was filled by material from this hypothesized impact. The presence of hypothetical impactites within the loose soils of coastal plain sands forming the rim of Carolina Bays indicates that bioturbation mixed material fell on the surface into the loose sand forming the rims. The churning of surface materials deep into thick sandy epipedons is a well documented and well known process. 7. In the northern extent of the distribution of Carolina Bays, their orientation varies by over 120 degrees, and based upon cross-cutting relationships and great differences in the degree of degradation of their rims, there are strong indications of multiple generations of Carolina Bays having formed at greatly different times. The claim by Firestone that both the Carolina Bays and playa and other lakes point at a central point is based on him having overlooked a significant amount of orientation data that both subtly and grossly contradicts and ultimately refutes his claim. 8. Although it is still in the realm of speculation, there appears to be evidence that indicates that the Carolina Bays in the Midlothian area are much older than the typical Carolina Bays that are found on Pleistocene coast-wise terraces. In my opinion, as far as the Carolina Bays are concerned, they are a nothing more than a time-consuming red herring of gigantic proportions. Even if the Carolina Bays are impact features of some sort, they clearly are much too old be connected in anyway with a Younger Dryas event. I am not going into references and figures because I am pulling this all together into a paper that I am working on and will submit to a journal that I know will both welcome it and have it rigerously peer-reviewed. Before submitting it, I will also have two or three select people review it. Yours, Paul H. _____________________________________________________ Rich Murray, MA Boston University Graduate School 1967 psychology, BS MIT 1964, history and physics, 1943 Otowi Road, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 505-501-2298 rmforall at comcast.net http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AstroDeep/messages http://RMForAll.blogspot.com new primary archive http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartameNM/messages group with 142 members, 1,588 posts in a public archive http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartame/messages group with 1204 members, 23,955 posts in a public archive http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rmforall/messages participant, Santa Fe Complex www.sfcomplex.org _____________________________________________________ From leighannedelray at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 16:51:49 2009 From: leighannedelray at gmail.com (Leigh Anne DelRay) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:51:49 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: Auctions ending in an hour or so... Gibeon Egg, Sikhote Alin stamp, Henbury, LDG, Moldavite and more... Message-ID: <5e97e2850911151351i171b3921j243f7384f0fdcf63@mail.gmail.com> Here are some cool auctions, that are ending soon, they are mine, so buy lots and lots of stuff. http://shop.ebay.com/callistodesigns/m.html?_trkparms=65%253A10%257C66%253A4%257C39%253A1&_ipg=&_sticky=1&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_sop=1&_sc=1 Here is a beautiful Libyan Desert Glass: http://cgi.ebay.com/GEM-Libyan-Desert-Glass-Meteorite-Impactite-Tektite-NR_W0QQitemZ250523680579QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a545fff43 Here is Sikhote Alin with a cool commemorative stamp: http://cgi.ebay.com/Sikhote-Alin-Iron-Meteorite-collectible-Russian-Stamp_W0QQitemZ260502367071QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca726ab5f Here is a nice little Henbury: http://cgi.ebay.com/Henbury-Iron-Meteorite-Australia-Complete-Individual-NR_W0QQitemZ250525967134QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a5482e31e Here is a nice little Gibeon Crystal http://cgi.ebay.com/Gibeon-Iron-Meteorite-Crystal-Complete-Individual-NR_W0QQitemZ250525967628QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a5482e50c Here is a NICE ETCHED Gibeon Egg: http://cgi.ebay.com/Gibeon-Iron-Meteorite-ETCHED-CARVED-EGG-Widmanstatten_W0QQitemZ250525971651QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a5482f4c3 Have a good day meteorite people! -Leigh Anne From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Sun Nov 15 17:44:17 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 23:44:17 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites & Competition - Rebels without a cause?? In-Reply-To: <4B006825.6000300@meteoritesusa.com> References: <4AFF0271.3040801@meteoritesusa.com><557682.80472.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4B004B43.3010202@meteoritesusa.com> <4B006825.6000300@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: <003501ca6645$2a5c7780$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> Hi there, I feel like so often today somewhat slow in mind, and would ask you for some help. I'm reading in that discussion, that here would dealers, individuals, big players or whoever, would treat collectors, newbies or whomever so bad, would prevent information, meteorites or whatever. And half of the responses is, yes, yes exactly - and the others, yes, but there are at least a few good guys left. And that action has to be taken, to improve the situation. Now I read about ominous groups and the danger that these could have an influence on restricting the access to, yah to what? And how? (And why?) And that we need new structures of..of? Please, can you give me some concrete examples? Or what you mean at all? Some beef please? Because I have difficulties to understand, what this discussion is about. All which comes to my mind is that once a newbie was unhappy, because the discoverer of a new strewnfield didn't invite him to hunt with him there. And else? Maybe that a few individuals among the scientists, who don't know, how meteorites are recovered, made the wrong laws - or what do you mean? It's meant seriously, not ironically. Thanks in advance, Martin From eric at meteoritesusa.com Sun Nov 15 17:52:43 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:52:43 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Nininger & The Vatican Message-ID: <4B00863B.8000401@meteoritesusa.com> An eye on the sky, one on the ground By Christopher Cokinos Posted: 11/15/2009 01:00:00 AM MST http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_13776988 Meteorite expert Harvey Nininger. (Courtesy of the American Meteorite Laboratory Photo Collection, Collections Research for Museums, Denver ) The International Year of Astronomy is drawing to a close, and it's been marked by some notable passages. We've celebrated the 400th anniversary of Galileo's first view through a telescope, and we've looked back 40 years to the first Apollo moon landing. This month, another anniversary has taken place, but one quite obscure except to some dealers, collectors and researchers of meteorites. Eighty-six years ago, on Nov. 9, 1923, a then-unknown, middle-aged science professor named Harvey Nininger was walking home from work in McPherson, Kan. Suddenly, he saw a huge meteor so vivid that eyewitnesses would remember the event for years to come. The fireball would also change the course of Harvey's life and the course of science. Nininger anticipated an insight about life and death on our planet decades before it became widely accepted by researchers and then became the stuff of Hollywood blockbusters. When the meteor vanished from his view on that chilly evening, Nininger marked the sidewalk where he stood. He knew that if he received enough reports from eyewitnesses, he could triangulate their accounts and have a rough sense of where meteorites might have fallen. (Meteors are the passage of burning objects from space into our atmosphere; meteorites are the heavy, usually dark rocks that sometimes fall from them to Earth.) Nininger's idea was a radical one. No one had attempted to search for meteorites where none had been seen to fall, and a leading geologist once told Nininger that if he spent the rest of his life looking for meteorites he might find one. The geologist was wrong. Though Nininger didn't find any space rocks from that Nov. 9 fireball, in the years ahead he'd find hundreds from other falls. Nininger believed that more meteorites could be discovered from unwitnessed or forgotten falls by simply scouring the countryside. He was proven right on that count as well. After quitting his $3,000-a-year teaching job at McPherson College (during the Great Depression!), Nininger moved his family to Denver, where in 1930 he became a part-time curator of meteorites at the Colorado Museum of Natural History. The museum paid him just $600 a year, so Nininger had to rely on his obsession and his wits to make a living at buying, selling, finding, displaying, popularizing and researching meteorites. No one had done anything like it before in the study of space rocks, which was then a backwater of geology. With help from Denver truck magnate Dean Gillespie, Nininger criss-crossed the continent, from Saskatoon to Chihuahua City, discovering newly fallen meteorites and ones that had languished in ditches, corn fields, even attics. He proved that iron meteorites were not the most common ones to fall, but that they were "selected" for discovery because they look so alien and weigh so much. He recovered 1,200 pounds of a rare stony-iron meteorite from a Kansas field. When most people still thought craters on the moon had been formed by volcanoes, Nininger and a few others begged to differ, suggesting they must have formed by the impacts of meteorites. He was right once more. And 40 years before scientists would link the extinction of the dinosaurs to an asteroid's collision with the planet, Nininger suggested that cosmic impacts could lead to global mass extinctions. A tireless worker, Nininger did find time during his Denver years to be active with the Boy Scouts and take his children to concerts. They watched the colored lights of the fountain at City Park, recalls Nininger's daughter, Doris Banks. Winter car trips meant that Harvey would warm up iron meteorites at home, then wrap them in blankets to place on the floorboard, thus keeping everyone toasty. I suppose not many Denverites today remember the name Harvey Nininger, but until World War II he was one of the city's most prominent scientific citizens. He was also known nationally from profiles in publications like The Saturday Evening Post. Eventually, he moved his family to Arizona, where he opened the world's only museum of meteorites and where his pursuits continued, at times, to get him in hot water. For example, Nininger didn't have a Ph.D., but he when he was awarded an honorary doctorate he began calling himself "Dr. Nininger," at least on his letterhead. His love of meteorites became a family affair. His son-in-law, Glenn Huss, took over Nininger's "American Meteorite Laboratory" in Denver for many years. Glenn's son, Gary, has become one of the world's best-known researchers of meteorites and the solar system. Tonight, go outside and watch the sky for a meteor. Look for the Leonid meteor shower when it peaks on Tuesday night and Wednesday morning. And remember that a few rare souls don't just make a wish when they see a meteor. Instead, they work hard to make that wish real. So it was with Harvey Nininger, Denver's original "meteorite man." Christopher Cokinos is a professor at Utah State University and author of "The Fallen Sky: An Intimate History of Shooting Stars" (Tarcher/Penguin July 2009). ------------------------------------------------------- Vatican's eye on the heavens By ERIC BERGER HOUSTON CHRONICLE Nov. 14, 2009, 9:58PM http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6721242.html Brother Guy Consolmagno is curator of the meteorite collection at Vatican City. Brother Guy Consolmagno, the curator of meteorites at the Vatican Observatory, will give a free public lecture at 7:30 p.m. Thursday at the Lunar and Planetary Institute, 3600 Bay Area Blvd. in the Clear Lake area. Before coming to Houston, he spoke with science writer Eric Berger about what the pope's astronomers do, about Galileo and about the fate of Pluto. Q: What does a Vatican astronomer do? A: There are 15 Jesuits and one diocesan priest involved at the Vatican Observatory, and basically 12 of us are astronomers and the others help out with administration. We do astronomy. When I was hired I was told one thing: Do good science. We each have our own programs, ranging from cosmology and string theory all the way to planetary science and meteor dust. We all do regular science, collaborating with other scientists around the world. Our group comes from four different continents and probably speaks a dozen languages. For my own particular work I do planetary science, so I'm the curator of the meteorite collection, and I do a lot of physical studies of meteorites, their density, porosity, thermal properties. And the goal of doing these measurements is to be able to understand the conditions under which these rocks were formed 4.5 billion years ago in the early solar system, and also to give us an idea about the materials that made the planets. Q: I take it the church no longer persecutes its astronomers. A: Certainly the Catholic Church did wrong by Galileo, everybody admits that. The history of what exactly happened is a lot more confusing than the mythology. I don't claim to know the truth more than anyone else. The odd thing is, what happened to Galileo is sort of contrary to the whole tradition of the church supporting science, and even supporting Galileo most of his life. It had to be a rude shock to him because up until about 1630, he was in his late 60s then, he had had nothing but support from the majority of the church. The pope was his friend. Then suddenly he was brought to trial for a book that had been published with church approval. After the trial he was allowed to stay with his friend, the cardinal of Sienna, and eventually go home. Those years during the trial were just a very odd, odd anomaly. The best theory I've heard is that it had to do with the fact that the Thirty Years War was going on, and it was all tied up in local politics. But that doesn't make anywhere near as cute a story as the church being anti-science. Q: Some 400 years later there's still a lot of tension between science and religion in the United States. A: I think that comes from scientists who are not really comfortable with religion because they don't know it very well; the religion they know is what they learned when they were 12 years old. And many religious people are not comfortable with science because they don't know science very well. Face it, most people stopped learning science and religion when they were about 12 years old, so they have a very childish understanding of both: Religion is a big book of rules and science is a big book of facts. Fortunately, neither is true. Q: Why should science and faith co-exist? A: The fact is, they do. The hardest thing I've had in my job of talking about this is trying to figure out why anyone would think they couldn't. It's a funny thing. I was a scientist for 15 years before I entered the Jesuits, and most of my friends in the science world had no idea about my religious life, any more than I knew theirs, because it's private. But when I became a Jesuit I was surprised at how many of them came up to me and said, ?Oh, that's wonderful. Let me tell you about the church I go to.? Q: Does the pope think Pluto should be a planet? A: The Catholic Church does not take official positions on matters of science. We learned that lesson from Galileo, thank you. Q: Well, what do you think? Should Pluto be a planet? (In 2006 astronomers declared it no longer should be considered a planet.) A: I was actually deeply involved in that whole discussion ? as was Chris Corbally from our group, who helped write the final definition ? because the Vatican Observatory is a member of the International Astronomical Union. In retrospect, although it wasn't the way I voted at the time, now that I've lived with it for three years I think they made the right choice. ----------------------------------------------------------- Enjoy... Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA From epgrondine at yahoo.com Sun Nov 15 18:05:14 2009 From: epgrondine at yahoo.com (E.P. Grondine) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:05:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Tunguska rates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <361898.24768.qm@web36903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Bonsoir Arnauld - When I stumbled into Clube and Napier's work and others in 1997 was when I realized that the NASA rates from asteroid population were too low. Its cometary and comet fragment impacts, and the small fragments are damned hard to find. I think Shoemaker's final paper out of Canada had better rates. The ones that I came up with were just from historical/myth-historical materials, but with archaeological confirmation - i.e. for the YD impacts there's quarry usage data. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas --- On Sun, 11/15/09, The Tricottet Collection wrote: > From: The Tricottet Collection > Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Tunguska rates > To: "E.P. Grondine" , "MeteoriteList" > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 3:01 AM > > Hi E.P. et al., > > actually, what the journalist of BI wrote is inaccurate. > You can read in our report that we used 1 per 1000 years as > our preferred value, following the most up-to-date > frequency-size distribution [Brown et al, 2002], but we also > tested 1 per 200 years [Shoemaker, 1983] and noted that the > rate could be far higher if hypotheses from geomythology and > related were to be verified. > > Best, > > ArnaudM > > > > > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:20:11 -0800 > > From: epgrondine at yahoo.com > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Subject: [meteorite-list] Tunguska rates > > > > Hi Arnauld, all, > > > > The problem is that Tunguska type blasts have been > occuring recently (for the last 5,000 years) at a rate of 1 > per 100 years, not 1 per 1,000. Whether this represents a > short term phenonmenon or the long term rate is not > currently known. > > > > I used to put together catalogues of "known and > suspected impacts", you may want to google that, and if you > have not bought a copy of "Man and Impact in the Americas" > yet, well, it is the best available recent impact rate data > for the Americas. > > > > E.P. Grondine > > Man and Impact in the Americas > > > > > >? ? ??? > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ??? > ???????? > ?????? ??? > ? > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock > star. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 From epgrondine at yahoo.com Sun Nov 15 18:18:40 2009 From: epgrondine at yahoo.com (E.P. Grondine) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:18:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Observations on Age of Carolina Bays: Paul H: Rich Murray 2009.11.15 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <562587.44196.qm@web36901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Rich, Paul - I think that they're looking at secondary craaters from ice chunks thrown out by original imapcts. While the Shawnee remembered multiple comet fragments hitting at the YD, my guess is that the bays may be from a different impact than the YD. There seem to be other oriented tangential impact crater fields. There were other ice ages, and other impacts. Bottom line, there's been more impacts than we ever imagined. We'll see - good luck with your research. Your white layers sound like impact "flour", but that wouldn't be from the YD. The big wait is for the USGS cores from the Carolinas, which should be most informative. Gene Shoemaker's accident was truly misfortunate, as in my opinion if he were still with us this all would have been cleared up by now. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Rich Murray wrote: > From: Rich Murray > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Observations on Age of Carolina Bays: Paul H: Rich Murray 2009.11.15 > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Cc: AstroDeep at yahoogroups.com, oxytropidoceras at cox.net > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 4:12 PM > Re: [meteorite-list] Observations on > Age of Carolina Bays: Paul H: Rich Murray 2009.11.15 > http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.htm > Sunday, November 15, 2009 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/astrodeep/message/32 > > Hello all, > > I am very appreciative of Paul's conscientious, careful > contributions, based on civility, reason, and public > evidence. > > Will there be many confirmations of ET markers in classic > Carolina Bays?? And in similar clusters in many parts > of the > world? > > Will a single place and time be found for a single or > multiple > sources, or multiple sources with multiple places and > times? > > Are data already available for mineral elements and > isotopes > at classic and possible Carolina Bay type craters? > > I find cracked,? broken, overturned, and tossed > bedrocks > up to 2 m size at many craters near Santa Fe, New Mexico. > Many of these rocks have white, grey, greenish, red-brown, > and black glazes or coatings, from 0.1 to 10 cm thick, > even > curled around the edge of bedrock layers for 10 cm, > often with rough surface textures with little wind or > water > erosion. > > Also ordinary white quartz rocks up to 20 cm, glazed on > one > side with what appears as 0.2 to 3 cm melted quartz, > sometimes with a yellow tinge. > > And 3 m thick level sandstone layers, exposed roadcuts > about 30 m above the landscape, that have up to 10 cm > white > and gray mineral layers that appear to have been plastered > on > the vertical surfaces. > > I will glad to show visitors my samples, and to give tours > of > accessible sites -- many right beside public roads. > > I will be happy to search for sites with Google Earth for > free > within 80 km of any location, so they can be studied by > those > who live near the center coordinates. > > Best,? Rich Murray > > exact Carolina Bay crater locations, RB Firestone, A West, > et al, > two YD reviews, 2008 June, 2009 Nov, also 3 > upcoming abstracts: Rich Murray 2009.11.14 > http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.htm > Saturday, November 14, 2009 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/astrodeep/message/31 > > nanodiamond evidence for 12,900 BP Clovis extinction > impact, > Santa Rosa Island, discussion on Scientific American > website, > Carolina Bay type craters east of Las Vegas, NM: > Rich Murray 2009.09.15 > http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_06_01_archive.htm > Friday, July 24, 2009 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AstroDeep/28 > > widespread Carolina Bay type craters from Clovis comet > 12,900 Ya BP? -- 0.7 M long NS crater with fractured > red sandstone on SW rim, CR C 53A, 20 miles E of > Las Vegas, NM: Rich Murray 2009.06.08 > http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_06_01_archive.htm > Monday, June 8, 2009 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AstroDeep/27 > _____________________________________________________ > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:46 PM > Subject: [meteorite-list] Observations on Age of Carolina > Bays > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing listis > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > As I will discuss in a paper that I am preparing, Carolina > Bays > are not at all difficult to date in terms of their age > relative to the > Younger Dryas as documented in a number of published, > peer- > reviewed papers and specific Cultural Resource Management > reports. There is a huge amount of information available > about > either the age or relative age of the Carolina Bays to be > found > by carefully and persistently digging through the large > number > of publications about them and the geomorphology of the > Atlantic coastal plain. > > 1. Radiocarbon dates are all minimum dates indicating > when ground water conditions allowed the preservation of > organic material within them. All the basal dates tells a > person > is the last time that a bay was permanently filled with > water > because of a rising groundwater table, which is greatly > influenced > by rises and falls in eustatic sea level. Despite the fact > that the > radiocarbon dates are only minimum dates, they clearly > demonstrate that the Carolina Bays predate the Younger > Dryas > event. > > 2. Optically Stimulated Luminescence (OSL) dating is now > a well established and proven dating method, which gives > credible dates for the age of these landforms. A person > might > argued for mxing of older and younger sand, except that > Dr. Ivester, whom I personally discussed this matter with > on the GSA 2008 Meeting sand mantle, biomantle, mima > mound field trip told me that he did not find the > anomalies > in the raw data for his dates that such mixing would > create. > Also, a person can always use single-grain OSL dating to > unequivocally test for such mixing. Given that Dr. Ivester > is > a very experienced Quaternary geologist, the claim he > dated > the wrong material, in my opinion is the type of lame > excuse > that I hear from Young Earth creationists when the data > refutes what they want to believe is the truth. If a person > is > going to make this claim, they need to back it up with > hard > and well-documented facts for it to be credible in any > manner at all. > > 3. The pollen records from several Carolina Bays clearly > go back to the last Glacial Maximum and in one bay, > back to Oxygen Isotope Stage 5a. In many more Carolina > Bays, the paleoenvironmental records start during full > glacial conditions, several thousands of years before the > hypothesized Younger Dryas event. Common sense and > basic stratigraphic principles dictate that the Carolina > Bays > containing these records existed before any hypothesized > Younger Dryas events, as it is physically impossible for > any sort of exterrestrial event / impact to create craters > thousands of years before it occurs. It is impossible for > mixing of sediment to have produced these records, as > the paleoenvironmental records recovered from Carolina > Bays correlate precisely in time and nature to > palynological > records from non-Carolina Bay lakes and swamps in the > same area as a Carolina Bay. > > 4. Cross-cutting relationships between well dated fluvial > terraces (lacking Carolina Bays) cut and inset into older > terraces and the Carolina Bays they exhibit establish the > minimum age of Carolina Bays. Similarly the superposition > dunes fields, which formed during the Late Glacial > Maximum and lacking Carolina Bays, upon Carolina > Bays that they partial bury, establish the pre-Younger > Dryas age of the Carolina Bays. Both cross-cutting > relationships and superposition are documented in great > detail by LIDAR DEMs available for large parts of the > Atlantic Coast. > > 5. Stratified archaeological sites demonstrate how > Carolina Bays have been modified after the Younger > Dryas. Carolina Bays on restricted government > reservations indicate how historic argriculture and > urban development have modified Carolina Bays > during the last few decades by comparison. > > 6. All the presence of hypothesized impactites filling > the Carolina Bays indicates is that preexisting Carolina > Bays was filled by material from this hypothesized impact. > The presence of hypothetical impactites within the loose > soils of coastal plain sands forming the rim of Carolina > Bays indicates that bioturbation mixed material fell > on the surface into the loose sand forming the rims. > The churning of surface materials deep into thick sandy > epipedons is a well documented and well known process. > > 7. In the northern extent of the distribution of Carolina > Bays, their orientation varies by over 120 degrees, and > based > upon cross-cutting relationships and great differences in > the degree of degradation of their rims, there are strong > indications of multiple generations of Carolina Bays > having > formed at greatly different times. The claim by Firestone > that > both the Carolina Bays and playa and other lakes point at > a > central point is based on him having overlooked a > significant > amount of orientation data that both subtly and grossly > contradicts and ultimately refutes his claim. > > 8. Although it is still in the realm of speculation, there > appears to be evidence that indicates that the Carolina > Bays > in the Midlothian area are much older than the typical > Carolina Bays that are found on Pleistocene coast-wise > terraces. > > In my opinion, as far as the Carolina Bays are concerned, > they are a nothing more than a time-consuming red herring > of gigantic proportions. Even if the Carolina Bays are > impact > features of some sort, they clearly are much too old be > connected in anyway with a Younger Dryas event. > > I am not going into references and figures because I am > pulling this all together into a paper that I am > working? on > and will submit to a journal that I know will both welcome > it and have it rigerously peer-reviewed. Before submitting > it, I will also have two or three select people review it. > > Yours,? Paul H. > _____________________________________________________ > > > Rich Murray, MA > Boston University Graduate School 1967 psychology, > BS MIT 1964, history and physics, > 1943 Otowi Road, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 > 505-501-2298? rmforall at comcast.net > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AstroDeep/messages > > http://RMForAll.blogspot.com new primary archive > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartameNM/messages > group with 142 members, 1,588 posts in a public archive > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartame/messages > group with 1204 members, 23,955 posts in a public archive > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rmforall/messages > > participant, Santa Fe Complex www.sfcomplex.org > _____________________________________________________ > > From eric at meteoritesusa.com Sun Nov 15 18:41:59 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:41:59 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] LCROSS Alien? Message-ID: <4B0091C7.2010205@meteoritesusa.com> Hi List, LCROSS mission: Aliens are watching... Alien face in ejecta plume. http://www.meteoritesusa.com/fun/LCROSS-Alien.jpg Some Photoshop fun for ya! Enjoy... ;) Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA From erikfwebb at msn.com Sun Nov 15 18:48:28 2009 From: erikfwebb at msn.com (Erik Fisler) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:48:28 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] LCROSS Alien? In-Reply-To: <4B0091C7.2010205@meteoritesusa.com> References: <4B0091C7.2010205@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: looks like the Grinch with a white beard [Erik] ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:41:59 -0800 > From: eric at meteoritesusa.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] LCROSS Alien? > > Hi List, > > LCROSS mission: Aliens are watching... > > Alien face in ejecta plume. > http://www.meteoritesusa.com/fun/LCROSS-Alien.jpg > > Some Photoshop fun for ya! > > Enjoy... ;) > > Regards, > Eric Wichman > Meteorites USA > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From almitt at kconline.com Sun Nov 15 18:46:36 2009 From: almitt at kconline.com (al mitt) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 18:46:36 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Nininger & The Vatican In-Reply-To: <4B00863B.8000401@meteoritesusa.com> References: <4B00863B.8000401@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: <7E767EC9E4984BC2BF760727576C6F30@StarmanPC> Greetings, Having read Eric's post on Nininger I thought I would remind people on the list (seasoned and newbies) that you can read more about Harvey Nininger at this link: http://www.meteorite.com/nininger/ at the meteorite.com area. Best! --AL Mitterling Mitterling Meteorites From Impactika at aol.com Sun Nov 15 19:05:16 2009 From: Impactika at aol.com (Impactika at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:05:16 EST Subject: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & Competition) Message-ID: Sorry Dennis, I have no intention to "think snow". In fact I can't wait to be in nice warm sunny Tucson! And if You want to think snow, come on over, and bring a shovel! And thank you to those of you who corrected my error. Yes the title of the book is indeed "Field Guide to Meteors and Meteorites" by O. Richard Norton. Certainly a great book by someone who left us way too soon. Have a nice evening! Anne M. Black _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) _IMPACTIKA at aol.com_ (mailto:IMPACTIKA at aol.com) Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) In a message dated 11/15/2009 12:41:52 PM Mountain Standard Time, astroroks at hotmail.com writes: Como esta? Anne and List Richard's book will always be a standard. I recently bought Caroline Smith, Sara Russell and Gretchen Benedix's new book "Meteorites". These gals "Drs" put together a great book for those with the slightest interest in meteorites. It's basic and very easy to read. Loads of great pictures too. I also like Kevin Kichinka's "The Art of Collecting Meteorites". Now, if you aren't a "Newbie" you will love McSween's "Meteorites and Their Parent Planets". I use my copy to fill up the shelf! But, what a Great Hobby, no matter what some say. Have A Great Day! Sorry Anne but, Think Snow!!! Dennis ---------------------------------------- > From: Impactika at aol.com > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:45:39 -0500 > To: minador at yahoo.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & Competition) > > Hello Mark and List, > > There is already a book that answers a lot of your questions, not all of > them, but quite a few. It is the Handbook of Meteorites by O. Richard Norton. > I certainly would recommend getting it. From bobadebt at ec.rr.com Sun Nov 15 19:52:32 2009 From: bobadebt at ec.rr.com (David Deyarmin) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:52:32 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Reed Family Project Message-ID: <5CFD7DC5D58C4583A327420322AD68B0@owner118c1707d> I hope it is okay to post this. Below is the story of young police officer that needs our help. If you are so inclined to send a small donation I will accept them via my PayPal account at bobadebt at ec.rr.com If you send a donation please put "Reed Family Project" in the subject line I tried to set up a separate account with Paypal but there is so much red tape that it would be very difficult and time consuming. I will withdraw and deposit all money received into a bank account that was set up for the this project. Mitchell Village Wachovia in Morehead City is the Bank that has the account. I will provide full financial accounting updates to this thread Thank you. Here is a copy of the email explain officer Reeds situation. ____________________________________________________________________________________________ The Morehead City police department, along with help from the community, is in the process of helping one of their own officers. This young officer is in desperate need of our help. In the past two years he has not only lost his father but his brother, grandmother, uncle, mother and a new born baby, which passed away in his arms. As losing those loved ones weren't enough he has yet more to deal with. This young man has a four month old son that suffers from a severe medical condition. The baby suffers from a stomach issue that prevents him from eating. He has to have special formula that is administered thru a feeding tube in the babies' nose. Even with this formula the baby weighs less then 9 lbs and must be seen by a doctor in Greenville several times a week. While attempting to deal with the passing of family members and the caring of loved ones he has had to put some things on the back burner. One of the things that have been neglected is his home. He currently lives in a small mobile home with no heat and very little room. The family has to do their cooking on a hot plate because they have no stove. His five year old son sleeps in a closet with room enough for a small bed. When the wind blows one can feel the air pass thru the walls. On top of the many problems with the living conditions, the family has no furniture. In fact to put it bluntly the family has nothing. This is where the police department is trying to help. We have found a newer trailer, which still needs a small amount of work but is more suitable for the families needs. But like anything else there are still hurdles that must be cleared. The biggest of these is money. This is why we are calling on Gods community to help us meet this need along with the families needs. We are accepting donations of both monetary and prayer in this effort. We understand times are tough for everyone but if God lays it on your heart please help us in this mission. Larry Stoneroad 252 241-3818 lstoneroad at embarqmail.com Nick Stoneroad 252 241-5788 Thank You and God Bless Larry Stoneroad From epgrondine at yahoo.com Sun Nov 15 18:29:51 2009 From: epgrondine at yahoo.com (E.P. Grondine) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:29:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] exact Carolina Bay crater locations, RB Firestone, A West, et al, two YD reviews, 2008 June, 2009 Nov, also 3 upcoming abstracts: Rich Murray 2009.11.14 In-Reply-To: <0E536B5D52C84D9AAFA48E11A12CCFB2@ownerPC> Message-ID: <692777.48595.qm@web36901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Rich - Perhaps they should be looking for multiple Kitscoty type impact structures. I.l. - 3 to 4 miles of ice blown off, land rises in perfectly circular pattern. Another possibility for the KREEP is actually primary impact with the Moon and secondary impacts from ejecta. When I get my computer up I'll send you a jpg of the cast of the Trempealeau Petroglyph. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Rich Murray wrote: > From: Rich Murray > Subject: exact Carolina Bay crater locations, RB Firestone, A West, et al, two YD reviews, 2008 June, 2009 Nov, also 3 upcoming abstracts: Rich Murray 2009.11.14 > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Cc: "Rich Murray" , RichMurray.rmforall at gmail.com > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 12:39 AM > exact Carolina Bay crater locations, > RB Firestone, A West, et al, two YD > reviews, 2008 June, 2009 Nov, also 3 upcoming abstracts: > Rich Murray > 2009.11.14 > http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.htm > Saturday, November 14, 2009 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/astrodeep/message/31 > ___________________________________________________ > > > http://ie.lbl.gov/mammoth/mammoth.html > Firestone paper links > > http://ie.lbl.gov/mammoth/TunguskaConferenceA4_Firestone.pdf > 37 pages > Firestone, R.B.; West, A.; Revay Zs.; Hagstrum J.T.; Belgya > T.; > Que Hee S.S.; and Smith, A.R. (2008) > Analysis of the Younger Dryas Impact Layer, > 100 years since Tunguska phenomenon: past, present, and > future, > June 26-28, Moscow, in press. 54 references > > R.B. Firestone 1, > A. West 2, > Zs. Revay 3, > J. T. Hagstrum 4, > T. Belgya 3, > S.S. Que Hee 5, > and A.R. Smith 1 > 1 Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, Berkeley, Ca > 94720, > [ #43 Henderson, G.M.; Hall, B.L.; Smith, A.; & > Robinson, L.F. > (2006) Chem. Geol. 226, 298-308 ] > 2 GeoScience Consulting, Box 1636, Dewey, Arizona 86327, > 3 Institute for Isotope and Surface Chemistry, > P.O. Box 77, H-1525 Budapest, Hungary, > 4 U.S. Geological Survey, 345 Middlefield Road MS 937, > Menlo Park, CA 94025, > 5 University of California, Los Angeles, ICP-MS Facility, > Los Angeles, CA 90095 > > Abstract > > We have uncovered a thin layer of magnetic grains and > microspherules, carbon spherules, and glass-like carbon at > nine sites across North America, a site in Belgium, and > throughout the rims of 16 Carolina Bays. > It is consistent with the ejecta layer from an impact event > and > has been dated to 12.9 ka BP coinciding with the onset of > Younger Dryas (YD) cooling and widespread megafaunal > extinctions in North America. > At many locations the impact layer is directly below a > black mat > marking the sudden disappearance of the megafauna and > Clovis > people. > The distribution pattern of the Younger Dryas boundary > (YDB) > ejecta layer is consistent with an impact near the Great > Lakes > that deposited terrestrial-like ejecta near the impact site > and > unusual, titanium-rich projectile-like ejecta further > away. > High water content associated with the ejecta, up to 28 > at.% > hydrogen (H), suggests the impact occurred over the > Laurentide > Ice Sheet. > YDB microspherules and magnetic grains are highly enriched > in > TiO2. > Magnetic grains from several sites are enriched in iridium > (Ir), up > to 117 ppb. > The TiO2/FeO, K/Th, TiO2/Zr, Al2O3/FeO+MgO, CaO/Al2O3, > REE/chondrite, FeO/MnO ratios and SiO2, Na2O, K2O, Cr2O3, > Ni, Co, U, Th and other trace element abundances are > inconsistent > with all terrestrial and extraterrestrial (ET) sources > except for > KREEP, a lunar igneous rock rich in potassium (K), > rare-earth > elements (REE), phosphorus (P), and other incompatible > elements > including U and Th. > Normal Fe, Ti, and 238U/235U isotopic abundances were > found > in the magnetic grains, but 234U was enriched over > equilibrium > values by 50% in Murray Springs and by 130% in Belgium. > 40K abundance is enriched by up to 100% in YDB sediments > and > Clovis chert artifacts. > Highly vesicular carbon spherules containing nanodiamonds, > glass-like carbon, charcoal and soot found in large > quantities in > the YDB layer are consistent with an impact followed by > intense > burning. > Four holes in the Great Lakes, some deeper than Death > Valley, > are proposed as possible craters produced by the airburst > breakup of a loosely aggregated projectile. > > from Table 2: > > CLOVIS SITES: > Blackwater Draw, NM----- 34.27564N 103.32633W > Chobot, AB, CAN--------- 52.99521N 114.71773W > Gainey, MI----------------- 42.93978N,, 83.72111W > Murray Springs, AZ --------31.57103N 110.17814W > Wally's Beach, AB--------- 49.34183N 113.15440W > Topper, SC -- T-1--------- 33.00554N,, 81.49001W > Topper, SC -- T-2--------- 33.00545N,, 81.49056W > > CLOVIS-AGE SITES: > Daisy Cave, CA----------- 34.04207N 120.32009W > Lake Hind, MB, CAN----- 49.43970N 100.69783W > Lommel, BELGIUM------- 51.23580N,,,,, 5.26403E > Morley drumlin, AB-------- 51.14853N, 114.93546W > > CAROLINA BAYS: (with paleosol beneath) > Blackville, SC -- T13------- 33.36120N 81.30440W > Myrtle Beach, SC -- M31-- 33.83776N 78.69565W > Lk Mattamuskeet -- LM---- 35.51865N 76.267917W > Howard Bay, NC -- HB---- 34.81417N 78.84753W > [ http://ie.lbl.gov/mammoth/PP43A_10.pdf ] > poster 1.07 MB > > CAROLINA BAYS: (no paleosol reached) > Myrtle Beach, SC -- M33-- 33.81883N 78.74181W > Myrtle Beach, SC -- M24-- 33.83118N 78.72379W > Myrtle Beach, SC -- M32-- 33.84034N 78.70906W > Salters Lake, NC -- B14--- 34.70992N 78.62043W > Lumberton, NC -- L33----- 34.75566N 79.10870W > Lumberton, NC -- L28----- 34.77766N 79.05008W > Lumberton, NC -- L31----- 34.78117N 79.04774W > Lumberton, NC -- L32----- 34.79324N 79.01871W > Moore Cty, NC -- MC1--- 35.30104N 78. 84753W > Sewell, NC -- FS3--------- 34.95800N 78.70280W > Lake Phelps -- LP---------- 35.78412N 76.434383W > > I looked all these up with Google Earth and Maps. > In many cases, many craters overlap complexly, so it > is not clear which is the one studied. > It is always easy to find many more in each cluster. > > > http://journalofcosmology.com/Extinction105.html? > 20 pages > Firestone, R. B., 2009, > The Case for the Younger Dryas Extraterrestrial Impact > Event: > Mammoth, Megafauna, and Clovis Extinction, 12,900 Years > Ago. > Journal of Cosmology. vol. 2, pp. 256-285. 67 references > > Abstract > > The onset of >1000 years of Younger Dryas cooling, > broad-scale > extinctions, and the disappearance of the Clovis culture in > North > America simultaneously occurred 12,900 years ago followed > immediately by the appearance of a carbon-rich black layer > at > many locations. > In situ bones of extinct megafauna and Clovis tools occur > only > beneath this black layer and not within or above it. > At the base of the black mat at 9 Clovis-age sites in > North > America and a site in Belgium numerous extraterrestrial > impact > markers were found including magnetic grains highly > enriched in > iridium, magnetic microspherules, vesicular carbon > spherules > enriched in cubic, hexagonal, and n-type nanodiamonds, > glass-like carbon containing Fullerenes and nanodiamonds, > charcoal, soot, and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. > The same impact markers were found mixed throughout the > sediments of 15 Carolina Bays, elliptical depressions along > the > Atlantic coast, whose parallel major axes point towards > either > the Great Lakes or Hudson Bay. The magnetic grains and > spherules have an unusual Fe/Ti composition similar to > lunar > Procellarum KREEP Terrane and the organic constituents are > enriched in 14C leading to radiocarbon dates often well > into > the future. > These characteristics are inconsistent with known > meteorites > and suggest that the impact was by a previous unobserved, > possibly extrasolar body. > The concentration of impact markers peaks near the Great > Lakes > and their unusually high water content suggests that a 4.6 > km-wide > comet fragmented and exploded over the Laurentide Ice > Sheet > creating numerous craters that now persist at the bottom of > the > Great Lakes. > The coincidence of this impact, the onset of Younger Dryas > cooling, extinction of the megafauna, and the appearance of > a > black mat strongly suggests that all these events are > directly > related. > These results have unleashed an avalanche of controversy > which I will address in this paper. > > Keywords: Younger Dryas, Extinctions, Extraterrestrial > Impacts, > Black Mat, Clovis, Mammoth, Megafauna > > "West also investigated sediment from 15 Carolina Bays, > elliptical depressions found along the Atlantic coast from > New England to Florida (Eyton and Parkhurst, 1975), > whose parallel major axes point towards either the > Great Lakes or Hudson Bay as seen in Fig. 3. > Similar bays have tentatively been identified in Texas, > New Mexico, Kansas, and Nebraska (Kuzilla, 1988) > although they are far less common in this region. > Their major axes also point towards the Great Lakes. > The formation of the Carolina Bays was originally ascribed > to meteor impacts (Melton and Schriever, 1933) but when > no meteorites were found they were variously ascribed > to marine, eolian, or other terrestrial processes. > > West found abundant microspherules, carbon spherules, > glass-like carbon, charcoal, Fullerenes, and soot > throughout > the Carolina Bays but not beneath them as shown in Fig. 4. > Outside of the Bays these markers were only found only > in the YDB layer as in other Clovis-age sites." > > "Figure 3. The Carolina Bays are >>500,000 > elliptical, > shallow lakes, wetlands, and depressions, up to >>10 > km long, > with parallel major axes (see inset) pointing toward the > Great Lakes or Hudson Bay. > Similar features found in fewer numbers in the plains > states > also point towards the Great Lakes. > These bays were not apparent topographical features > until the advent of aerial photography." > > This figure shows nice color LIDAR typographic images > of 8 craters, 0.5 to 4 km wide. > I used Ctr + in Windows Vista to expand the NA map, > counting > 18 elliiptical craters in the Great Plains: > Texas 4 > New Mexico 3 > Colorado 2 > Kansas 4 > Nebraska 5. > > It's not easy to locate the LIDAR craters on the photo > images > of Google Maps and Earth, but I've had a lot of practice > with > these states and all over Earth this year, including brief > visits to > many craters in New Mexico and Kauai. > I managed to find Salt Lake, NM, and Coyote Lake, TX. > The features are often complex enough to make assigning a > size fairly arbitrary. > > Nice maps and typo maps and tourist info are available free > on: > www.trails.com > www.goingoutside.com > > Salt Lake, New Mexico 34.079932 -103.089600, > 1.177 km lowest crater elevation, NEE axis, EES rim el > 1.215, > N edge el 1.183, ~10x3.7, E from center 7 km to Texas and > 18 km to Coyote Lake (another LIDAR image), much white > deposits,? N of Rd 235ew,? just S of Rd 88 S > Roosevelt Road 10, > 24 km E of 206ns, 26 km EES of Portales, striking "comb" > of > many parallel ditches running into lake from E side > > Little Salt Lake is 7 km W of center,? el 1.183, 3.6 > wide, E comb, > very similar and obviously connected > > Coyote Lake, Texas 34.102105 -102.872902 1.162 site N > 1.200 > 15 km SW of Muleshoe, size 5.7x4.3, E comb, W of Rd 214 ns > > Baileyboro Lake 34.0045 -102.8206 1.155 site SW 1.186 > no comb, size 2 > > Upper White Lake 33.9426 -102.7678 1.129 site W 1.171 > S,E comb, size 1.8,? 2 km W of Rd 214ns > > just 1 km NE is a double crater, 1.129 site W 1.169, > S,E comb, 1.6x1.3, just W of Rd 214ns > > then just N is Muleshoe National Wildlife Refuge, same > size, > with a .24 wide flat round dark crater 1.667 site W 1.170 > > just E across Rt 214ns is Upper Pauls Lake, complex 2 km > size, > 1.129 site W 1.147 > > 33.860831 -101.449100 1.038 site W 1.125 > NNE 15x8, 29 km SSE of craters by Rd 214ns, > 10 km W of Rd 385ns, 15 km SW of Littlefield on Rd 84nwse, > comb on whole E side > > Returning to New Mexico, Lane Salt Lake, similar to Salt > Lake > 33.465718 -103.608318 1.265 site 1.300 size 10x4 NE > 90 km SW of Salt Lake, E comb > > 34.038716 -103.350290, el 1.266, site about 1.269, .16 > wide, > W of 206ns, just S of S Roosevelt Rd 15, dark > > 34.026073 -103.399379 1.278 site 1.283 size .76, > extends to SW > > 34.026338 -103.437950 1.279 site 1.287, > cut by Rd 235ew size 1.5 > > WSNM 32.755610 -106.413363 1.186 site S 1.210 68x33 km > White Sands National Monument, gypsum sand > > > Howard Bay, NC -- HB---- 34.81417 -78.84753 > [ Wet center marked in blue on Google Maps Terrain, > named Pages Lake .7x.2, with Mines Creek NW to SE > at both ends, but built over on Google Earth, > 34.815274 -783014 .030 is lowest point, > just SW of Rd 87,? is 13.7 km W of Marshy Bay, > which is NW of Bladen Lakes State Forest. > site W .044 N .044 E creek .010? S .043 all at 1.3 > radius, > Rd 87 cuts NW across NE half, farms completely hide > crater, > steep bare brown red rise to NWSE ridge from .030 to .044 > from .090 to 1.17 radius must be NE rim. > Many local farm roads provide convenient access > across crater interior. ] > > [ http://ie.lbl.gov/mammoth/PP43A_10.pdf ] > poster 1.07 MB > > R. Kobres 1, > G. A. Howard 2 ( george at restorationsystems.com > ), > A.West? 3 , > R. B. Firestone 4, > J. P. Kennett 5, > D. Kimbel 2, > W. Newell 2 > 1 U. of Georgia, Athens, GA, 30602, > 2 Restoration Systems, L.L.C., Raleigh, NC 27604, > 3 GeoScience Consulting, Dewey, Arizona 86327, > 4 Lawrence Berkeley National Lab Berkeley, CA 94720, > 5 Dept. of Earth Sciences, U. of California, Santa Barbara, > CA 93106. > > B23A-0948 > Surface Vertical Exaggeration = 7x > Scale: 250 meters > Bay is 2.6 km long > > The Carolina Bays are a group of up to 500,000 lakes and > wetlands stretching from Florida to New Jersey > along the Atlantic Ocean. > They are up to11 km in length and about 15 meters in > depth. > The elliptical shapes, overlapping rims (Fig.1, left), and > common > orientation towards the Great Lakes region have generated > many > hypotheses about how the Bays formed. > Extraterrestrial Impact. > This hypothesis was developed by Melton and Schriever > (1933) > and expanded by Prouty, (1934) and Eyton and > Parkhurst(1970), > who proposed that a meteorite or comet exploded above the > Great Lakes, producing no primary crater. > The secondary fragments and/orshock wave from that blast > formed rough, shallow craters on the Atlantic Coast, and, > over time, wind and water altered those craters to form > the > Carolina Bays. > The Impact Hypothesis accounts fo rthe orientation of > Bays, > overlapping raised rims, and the fact? that they do > not appear > to be forming today. > However, there are problems: > (a) reported Bay ages vary by tens of thousands of years; > and > (b) no one has found impact material in the Bays, such as > shocked quartz or other ET markers. > Wind-and-Water. > This hypothesis was offered in various versions > first by Raisz (1934) and others, whosuggested that wind > created deflation basins or parabolic dunes, which later > filled to become lakes that evolved into Carolina Bays. > Johnson (1942) proposed that springs or groundwater > dissolution of soluble minerals caused subsidence, which > formed > water-filled depressions that became the Bays. > Kaczorowski (1976) formulated what has become one of the > prevailing views, suggesting that strong ice-age winds > blew > across irregular lakes, generating powerful eddy-currents. > Those currents gradually reshaped the lakes into oriented, > elliptical Carolina Bays, whose long axes were > perpendicular > to the prevailing wind direction. > The rims were built from wind-transported sand that > accumulated from the dry lake beds during droughts. > While this overall hypothesis clarifies many Bay features, > it has several key weaknesses. > The theory can not explain: > (a)how wind and water could create up to four layers of > stacked Bays with overlapping Bay rims, as seen in Fig.1; > and > (b) why modern severe wind and water action, such as > occurs > during hurricanes, does not produce or reshape Bays > on the Coastal Plain today. > Objective: > Because of the above questions, the Bay controversy has > remained unresolved for more than 80 years. > In this investigation, we tested these various hypotheses > by > examining Howard Bay, which is located about 2km north of > the town of Duartin, Bladen County, North Carolina. > RESULTS > Nine suites of samples were extracted along the 2.6-km long > axis > of Howard Bay using a combination of trenching and coring > with > an AMS Soil Core Sampler. > Maximum depths varied from about 2 to10 meters. > ET Markers. > Analysis of the samples reveals an assemblage of abundant > carbon spherules (Fig.2), magneticgrains, microspherules, > glass-like carbon, and iridium, typical of the12.9-ka YDB > impact layer found at many other non-bay sites > across North America. > The impact layer conforms to the bottom of the basin > (dark blue on the core symbols), suggesting that the > markers > began to be deposited immediately or soon after the Bay > formed. > Fig.3 shows the results from Core #11 near the center of > Howard Bay, where carbon spherules are found from > nearly the surface down to about 7.5 meters deep. > Glass-like carbon abundances (not shown) followed > a similar pattern. > Iridium (15 ppb) was found at the lowest level of the > basin. > Silt and Clay. > Trenching shows that theBay is filled with >6m of > cross-bedded > eolian sand (Fig.4) with no evidence of lacustrine > sedimentation. > As a further test, sediment from Core #11 was analyzed > with > Standard ASTM sieves, and the results are shown in Fig.3. > The top1 meter averaged about 14% silt and clay, and from > about 1 to 9 meters, there is 0.3% to 6% silt and clay, > values consistent with eolian deposition. > There is typically less than a few percent of any > particles > larger than medium sand. > DISCUSSION > Analysis reveals that, unlike typical, peat-rich Carolina > Bays, > Howard Bay essentially lacks peat, diatoms, pollen, and > other > organic materials, and it also lacks substantial silt and > clay. > That suggests this Bay never held water for a sustained > length of time. > Furthermore, the presence of extensive eolian sand calls > into question prevailing hypotheses > (a) that all Bays were lakes and ponds in the past and > that > their shapes were formed by wave action, and > (b) that ground water movement led to subsidence that > formed the Bay. > In addition, the presence of impact markers, including > high > concentrations of iridium in a layer just above the basal > sediments of this Bay, supports the impact hypothesis > for Bay formation. > The age of Howard Bay appears consistent with and > not older than the YD impact event; > however, our research did not address the reported > anomalous > ages of other Bays, a question which remains unresolved. > REFERENCES > 1. Melton, F.A. & Scriever, W. (1933) J. Geol. 41, > 52-56. > 2. Prouty, W.F. (1952) Bulletin of the GSA, Vol. 63, > 167-224.. > 3. Eyton, J.R. & J.I. Parkhurst (1975) > Dept. of Geography Paper No. 9, U. of Illinois. > 4. Raisz, (1934) J. Geol., Vol. 42:839-848 > 5. Johnson, D.W. (1942) The Origin of the Carolina Bays. > Columbia University Press, New York. > 6. Kaczorowski, R.T. (1976) The Carolina Bays: > a comparison with modern oriented lakes, > PhD thesis, University of South Carolina, Columbia. > Base image courtesy of James M. Salmons, > President, GeoDataCorp., > 104 E Horton St., Zebulon, NC 27597, > 919-269-5744 www.GeoDataMapping.com ] > > [ Fig. 1 is a LIDAR elevation image of Marshy Bay, > Google Maps and Earth give fine natural color view, > resolution .001 km, size 3.3x1.8 km, el .033 km, > 4 km E of Cedar Creek Road ns,? Rd 53ns, > 30 km E of Hwy 95ns, 40 km SE of Fayetteville, > NW of or part of? Bladen Lakes State Forest, > 90 km NW of the coast at Wilmington ] > with Little Singletary Lake [ North Carolina 28399 ] > and Horseshoe Lake > to the lower L and lower R,? all oriented NW. ] > > > One side in the debate has conceded a major point to their > critics, > while presenting more evidence for many other major > points. > > AGU Fall Meeting 2009 > ID# PP31D-1389 > Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South) > Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM > > The platinum group metals in Younger Dryas Horizons > are terrestrial > Y. Wu 1; E. Wikes 1; J. Kennett 2; A. West 3; M. Sharma 1 > 1. Dept of Earth Sciences, Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH > 2. Department of Earth Sciences, > University of California, Santa Barbara, CA, USA. > 3. GeoScience Consulting, Dewey, AZ, USA. > > The Younger Dryas (YD) event, which began 12,900 years > ago, > was a period of abrupt and rapid cooling in the > Northern Hemisphere whose primary cause remains unclear. > The prevalent postulated mechanism is a temporary shutdown > of the thermohaline circulation following the breakup of an > ice > dam in North America. > Firestone et al. (2007) proposed that the cooling was > triggered > by multiple cometary airbursts and/or impacts that > engendered > enormous environmental changes and disrupted the > thermohaline > circulation. > The evidence in support for this hypothesis is a black > layer in > North America and in Europe marking the YD boundary > containing charcoal, soot, carbon spherules and glass-like > carbon > suggesting extensive and intense forest fires. > This layer is also enriched in magnetic grains high in > iridium, > magnetic microspherules, fullerenes containing > extraterrestrial > He-3, and nanodiamonds. > Whereas the nanodiamonds could be produced in an impact or > arrive with the impactor, the cometary burst/impact > hypothesis > remains highly controversial as the YD horizon lacks > important > impact markers such as craters, breccias, tektites and > shocked minerals. > Firestone et al. (2007) contend that bulk of Ir found at > the YD > boundary is associated with magnetic grains. > The key issue is whether this Ir is meteorite derived. > We used Ir and Os concentrations and Os isotopes to > investigate the provenance of the platinum group metals in > the > YD horizon. > The bulk sediment samples from a number of North American > YD sites (Blackwater Draw, Murray Springs, Gainey, > Sheriden Cave, and Myrtle Beach) and a site in Europe > (Lommel) > do not show any traces of meteorite derived Os and Ir. > The [Os] = 2 to 45 pg/g in these sediments and the > 187Os/188Os > ratios are similar to the upper continental crustal values > (~1.3), > much higher than those in meteorites (0.13). > Higher [Os] is observed in Blackwater Draw (= 194 pg/g). > However, the Os/Ir ratio in Blackwater Draw is 5 > (not 1 as expected for a meteorite) and > 187Os/188Os ratio = 1.35, which remains constant above and > below the YD horizon. > Kennett et al. (2009) report 200 ppb of nanodiamonds and > about 4 ppb of Ir in bulk sediments from Murray Springs. > Since chondritic meteorites contain approximately 400 ppm > of presolar nanodiamonds and about 500 ppb of osmium, > simple mixing requires that the YD horizon at Murray > Springs > should contain about 250 pg/g of Os. > However, the observed Os concentration of YD horizon at > Murray Springs is only 45 pg/g and the 187Os/188Os ratio is > 1.66. > These observations suggest that if there was an impact > that > produced the nanodiamonds and dispersed them, > it did not provide Os (and Ir) to the Murray Springs and > other > North American sites. > We have so far separated and analyzed magnetic grains from > Gainey and Lommel and find their [Os] and 187Os/188Os > ratios consistent with a terrestrial origin. > The [Os] of microspherules analyzed so far are too low to > be > derived from meteorites. > Our analyses therefore do not support an extraterrestrial > origin of > the platinum metals in YD horizons from North America and > Europe. > Contact Information: Yingzhe Wu, Hanover, New Hampshire, > USA 03755 > > > AGU Fall Meeting 2009 > ID# PP31D-1392 > Location: Poster Hall (Moscone South) > Time of Presentation: Dec 16 8:00 AM - 12:20 PM > > Nanodiamonds and Carbon Spherules from Tunguska, the K/T > Boundary, and the Younger Dryas Boundary Layer > J. H. Wittke 1; T. E. Bunch 1; A. West 2; J. Kennett 3; > D. J. Kennett 4; G. A. Howard 5 > 1. Dept. of Geology, Northern Arizona Univ., Flagstaff, AZ, > USA. > 2. GeoScience Consulting, Dewey, AZ, USA. > 3. Dept. of Earth Science and Marine Science Institute, > Univ. of California, Santa Barbara, CA, USA. > 4. Dept. of Anthropology, Univ. of Oregon, Eugene, OR, > USA. > 5. Restoration Systems, LLC, Raleigh, NC, USA. > > More than a dozen markers, including nanodiamonds (NDs) > and > carbon spherules (CS), occur in a sedimentary layer marking > the > onset of the Younger Dryas (YD) cooling episode at ~12.9 > ka. > This boundary layer, called the YDB, has been found at > nearly > forty locations across North America, Europe, and Asia, > although not all markers are present at any given site. > Firestone et al. (2007) and Kennett et al. (2008, 2009) > proposed that these markers resulted from a cosmic > impact/airburst and impact-related biomass burning. > Here we report features common to the YDB event, the > Cretaceous-Tertiary (K/T) impact, and the Tunguska > airburst > of 1908. > In sediments attributed to each event, we and other > researchers have recovered NDs either inside or closely > associated with CS, which appear to be the > high-temperature > by-products of biomass burning. > CS range in diameter from about 500 nanometers to > 4 millimeters with a mean of ~100 microns, > and they typically contain NDs, including lonsdaleite > (hexagonal diamonds), in the interior matrix and in the > crust. > To date, CS and NDs have been found in the K/T layer > in the United States, Spain, and New Zealand. > Similarly, CS and NDs have been found in the YDB layer > in the United States, Canada, United Kingdom, Belgium, > the Netherlands, Germany, and France. > Thus far, every site examined contains NDs and/or CS in > the > K/T and YDB layers; conversely, we have yet to detect CS > associated with NDs in any non-YDB sediments tested. > Five allotropes of NDs have been identified in association > with > CS: cubic diamonds, lonsdaleite, n-diamonds, p-diamonds, > and i-carbon, which are differentiated by slight > variations > in their crystalline structure. > All allotropes have been identified using scanning > electron > microscopy (SEM), high-resolution electron microscopy > (HREM), > and transmission electron microscopy (TEM) with > confirmation > by selected area diffraction (SAED). > Lonsdaleite is found on Earth only in three instances: > (1) in the laboratory, where it is produced by shock > synthesis > under a high-temperature-high-pressure regime > (~1000?C to 1700?C at 15 GPa) or by carbon vapor > deposition > (CVD) under a very-high-temperature-low-pressure regime > (~13,000?C at 300 Torr) (Maruyama et al., 1993); > (2) after arrival on Earth inside extraterrestrial > material; and > (3) as a result of high-temperature cosmic > impact/airbursts. > Lonsdaleite associated with CS has been found in sediments > only at the K/T, the YDB, and Tunguska, consistent with > the > hypothesis that all three events have cosmic origins, > although the nature of the impactors may have been > different. > Contact Information: James H. Wittke, > Flagstaff, Arizona, USA, 86011-4099 > > > AGU Fall Meeting 2009 > ID#? PP33B-08 > Location: 2006 (Moscone West) > Time of Presentation: Dec 16 3:04 PM - 3:16 PM > > Testing Younger Dryas ET Impact (YDB) Evidence > at Hall's Cave, Texas > T. W. Stafford 1; E. Lundelius 2; J. Kennett 3; D. J. > Kennett 4; > A. West 5; W. S. Wolbach 6 > 1. Stafford Research, Inc., Lafayette, CO, USA. > 2. Dept. of Geological Sciences, Univ. of Texas, Austin, > TX, USA. > 3. Dept. of Earth Science & Marine Science Institute, > Univ. of California, Santa Barbara, CA, USA. > 4. Dept. of Anthropology, Univ. of Oregon, Eugene, OR, > USA. > 5. GeoScience Consulting, Dewey, AZ, USA. > 6. Dept. of Chemistry, DePaul Univ., Chicago, IL, USA. > > Hall's Cave, Kerrville County Texas, 167 km WSW of Austin, > provides a unique opportunity for testing the presence of > a > chronostratigraphic datum (YDB layer) containing rare and > exotic proxies, including nanodiamonds, aciniform soot, > and > magnetic spherules, the origins of which remain > controversial, > but possibly derive from a cosmic impact ~12,900 CAL BP. > The karst-collapse cave in Cretaceous limestone on the > Edwards Plateau contains ? 3.7 m of stratified clays > grading to > clayey silts recording continuous deposition from 16 ka RC > yr > to present. > The cave's small catchment area and mode of deposition > were > constant, and the stratigraphy is well dated based on 162 > AMS 14C dates from individual vertebrate fossils, snails, > charcoal, and sediment chemical fractions. > The cave sequence contains an abundant small animal > vertebrate > fossil record, exhibiting biostratigraphic changes, and the > timing > of the late Pleistocene megafaunal extinction is consistent > with > that elsewhere in North America. > At 151 cm below datum is the extremely sharp, smooth > contact > separating lower, dusky red (2.5YR3/2) clays below from > overlying dark reddish brown (5YR3/3) clays (forming a > 20-cm-thick dark layer) and dating to 13,000 CAL BP, > at or close to the age of the YDB datum elsewhere. > This appears to be the most distinctive lithologic change > of the > deglacial sequence. > Sediments at or within 10 cm of this contact contain the > local > extinction of 4 species of bats, the local extinction of > the prairie dog > (Cynomys sp.) and perhaps other burrowing mammals in > response > to decrease in soil thickness, and the uppermost occurrence > of 6 > late Pleistocene megafaunal taxa that, although rare in the > cave, > do not extend younger than 12.9 ka. > We collected and analyzed sediments at high resolution > above > and below the distinct lithologic contact at 151 cm. > The red clays from 151 to 153 cm and immediately preceding > the > lithologic contact contain an abundance of nanodiamonds > (5 different allotropes), aciniform soot at 2400 ppm, > magnetic > spherules, and carbon spherules, all of which we interpret > as > evidence for a unique chronostratigraphic marker (YDB) > in the Western Hemisphere. > Because the age of this horizon is ~ 13,000 CAL BP, we > interpret the age of the event as the beginning of the > Younger Dryas cooling. > Regional soil erosion began ~15,000 CAL BP and continued > until 7000 CAL BP, but dating suggests that there is no > discontinuity or hiatus in deposition, and thus, the exotic > materials > in that layer are not considered to be erosional > accumulations. > Future analyses include sub-centimeter sampling over the > YD boundary, quantification of nanodiamonds and other > event-proxies within 1000 yr of the boundary and in > sediments > several 1000 years older and younger, continued refinement > of > the AMS 14C record to determine within 50 yr the location > of > 12,900 CAL BP datum and high resolution analysis > of small animal biostratigraphy. > Contact Information: Thomas W. Stafford, > Lafayette, Colorado 80026 > > [ 30.135347 -99.537902 M. Jennifer Cooke et al, 2003 Oct, > study of Hall's Cave, 4 p ] > www.geo.utexas.edu/faculty/banner/Publications/Halls_Cave_Geology_03.pdf > > > For most of these craters, white minerals are striking. > Analysis of elements and isotopes should prove any > evidence > of ET origin, and indicate temperatures and pressures > of deposition onto target rocks from steam explosions > of? ice comet fragments. > > The shared level of minimal erosion indicates > a shared early Holocene origin. > > Amateurs should be encouraged to contribute observations > and samples. > > Scientists can organize a center for analyzing samples at > a > modest profit, while freely sharing data and research. > > Websites, online journals, videos, magazines, books, and > movies can generate reasonable profits in the service of > science. > > The emerging insights into a past universal truama will > lead > to a? increased shared sense of community in our human > family. > > It is necessary to assess any future risks. > > nanodiamond evidence for 12,900 BP Clovis extinction > impact, > Santa Rosa Island, discussion on Scientific American > website, > Carolina Bay type craters east of Las Vegas, NM: > Rich Murray 2009.09.15 > http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_06_01_archive.htm > Friday, July 24, 2009 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AstroDeep/28 > > widespread Carolina Bay type craters from Clovis comet > 12,900 Ya BP? -- 0.7 M long NS crater with fractured > red sandstone on SW rim, CR C 53A, 20 miles E of > Las Vegas, NM: Rich Murray 2009.06.08 > http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_06_01_archive.htm > Monday, June 8, 2009 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AstroDeep/27 > > For Google Earth, here are the Windows/Linux keyboard > commands that make it easy to "fly" easily, > creating an intuitive 3D grasp of the landscape -- my > laptop > runs at 1 GHZ with a graphics card, Windows Vista, Chrome, > and 3 GB RAM: > > Full screen mode: F11 > Lat/Long grid: Ctrl L > Slow movement down: add Alt before other keys > Zoom in, out: PgUp, PgDn keys > Move left, right, forward, back: arrow keys > Tilt view up, down: Shift down arrow, up arrow > Rotate view in circle clockwise, counterclockwise: > Shift right arrow, left arrow > Tilt up towards horizon, down towards directly below: > Shift down arrow, up arrow > Stop, start movement: space bar > Look in any direction: Ctrl, left mouse button and drag > New placemark: Ctrl Shift P > To delete or rewrite a placemark title, > right click it and select Properties. > Reset view to north as forward:? n > Reset tilt to top-down view: u > Select Tools to select Web to return to your other > screens. > > It's easy to look down about 45 degrees while moving > straight > ahead in any direction at an eye elevation of 1-200 km, > scanning a straight strip half-way around the world, > stopping to placemark, examine, and measure any features. > > http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/java/ > > Requirements: a 3D video card with updated drivers is > necessary. > World Wind has been tested on Nvidia, ATI/AMD, and Intel > platforms using Windows, MacOS 10.4, and Fedora Core 6. > > WW gives exact altitudes and ocean depths. > WW images omit human features and give good resolution > from above 30 km. > > http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/graphics/keychart.jpg > > Keyboard controls: > Pan: arrow keys > Rotate LR: A,D keys > Tilt forward down, back up: W,S keys > Zoom down, up: 7 or Home, 1 or End > Stop: space bar or 5. > Position info: F10 > Crosshairs: F9 > Boundaries: F5 > Placenames: F6 > Lat/Long Lines: F7 > Planet Axis: F8 > Dynamic Layers: F1 > _____________________________________________________ > > > Rich Murray, MA > Boston University Graduate School 1967 psychology, > BS MIT 1964, history and physics, > 1943 Otowi Road, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 > 505-501-2298? rmforall at comcast.net > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AstroDeep/messages > > http://RMForAll.blogspot.com new primary archive > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartameNM/messages > group with 142 members, 1,588 posts in a public archive > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartame/messages > group with 1204 members, 23,955 posts in a public archive > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rmforall/messages > > participant, Santa Fe Complex www.sfcomplex.org > _____________________________________________________ > > From mikewren at gilanet.com Sun Nov 15 18:30:13 2009 From: mikewren at gilanet.com (michael cottingham) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:30:13 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Nininger & The Vatican In-Reply-To: <4B00863B.8000401@meteoritesusa.com> References: <4B00863B.8000401@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: Who's Nininger? On Nov 15, 2009, at 3:52 PM, Meteorites USA wrote: > An eye on the sky, one on the ground > By Christopher Cokinos > Posted: 11/15/2009 01:00:00 AM MST > http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_13776988 > > Meteorite expert Harvey Nininger. (Courtesy of the American > Meteorite Laboratory Photo Collection, Collections Research for > Museums, Denver ) > > The International Year of Astronomy is drawing to a close, and it's > been marked by some notable passages. We've celebrated the 400th > anniversary of Galileo's first view through a telescope, and we've > looked back 40 years to the first Apollo moon landing. > > This month, another anniversary has taken place, but one quite > obscure except to some dealers, collectors and researchers of > meteorites. Eighty-six years ago, on Nov. 9, 1923, a then-unknown, > middle-aged science professor named Harvey Nininger was walking home > from work in McPherson, Kan. Suddenly, he saw a huge meteor so vivid > that eyewitnesses would remember the event for years to come. > > The fireball would also change the course of Harvey's life and the > course of science. Nininger anticipated an insight about life and > death on our planet decades before it became widely accepted by > researchers and then became the stuff of Hollywood blockbusters. > > When the meteor vanished from his view on that chilly evening, > Nininger marked the sidewalk where he stood. He knew that if he > received enough reports from eyewitnesses, he could triangulate > their accounts and have a rough sense of where meteorites might have > fallen. (Meteors are the passage of burning objects from space into > our atmosphere; meteorites are the heavy, usually dark rocks that > sometimes fall from them to Earth.) > > Nininger's idea was a radical one. No one had attempted to search > for meteorites where none had been seen to fall, and a leading > geologist once told Nininger that if he spent the rest of his life > looking for meteorites he might find one. The geologist was wrong. > > Though Nininger didn't find any space rocks from that Nov. 9 > fireball, in the years ahead he'd find hundreds from other falls. > Nininger believed that more meteorites could be discovered from > unwitnessed or forgotten falls by simply scouring the countryside. > He was proven right on that count as well. > > After quitting his $3,000-a-year teaching job at McPherson College > (during the Great Depression!), Nininger moved his family to Denver, > where in 1930 he became a part-time curator of meteorites at the > Colorado Museum of Natural History. The museum paid him just $600 a > year, so Nininger had to rely on his obsession and his wits to make > a living at buying, selling, finding, displaying, popularizing and > researching meteorites. No one had done anything like it before in > the study of space rocks, which was then a backwater of geology. > > With help from Denver truck magnate Dean Gillespie, Nininger criss- > crossed the continent, from Saskatoon to Chihuahua City, discovering > newly fallen meteorites and ones that had languished in ditches, > corn fields, even attics. He proved that iron meteorites were not > the most common ones to fall, but that they were "selected" for > discovery because they look so alien and weigh so much. He recovered > 1,200 pounds of a rare stony-iron meteorite from a Kansas field. > > When most people still thought craters on the moon had been formed > by volcanoes, Nininger and a few others begged to differ, suggesting > they must have formed by the impacts of meteorites. He was right > once more. And 40 years before scientists would link the extinction > of the dinosaurs to an asteroid's collision with the planet, > Nininger suggested that cosmic impacts could lead to global mass > extinctions. > > A tireless worker, Nininger did find time during his Denver years to > be active with the Boy Scouts and take his children to concerts. > They watched the colored lights of the fountain at City Park, > recalls Nininger's daughter, Doris Banks. Winter car trips meant > that Harvey would warm up iron meteorites at home, then wrap them in > blankets to place on the floorboard, thus keeping everyone toasty. > > I suppose not many Denverites today remember the name Harvey > Nininger, but until World War II he was one of the city's most > prominent scientific citizens. He was also known nationally from > profiles in publications like The Saturday Evening Post. > > Eventually, he moved his family to Arizona, where he opened the > world's only museum of meteorites and where his pursuits continued, > at times, to get him in hot water. For example, Nininger didn't have > a Ph.D., but he when he was awarded an honorary doctorate he began > calling himself "Dr. Nininger," at least on his letterhead. > > His love of meteorites became a family affair. His son-in-law, Glenn > Huss, took over Nininger's "American Meteorite Laboratory" in Denver > for many years. Glenn's son, Gary, has become one of the world's > best-known researchers of meteorites and the solar system. > > Tonight, go outside and watch the sky for a meteor. Look for the > Leonid meteor shower when it peaks on Tuesday night and Wednesday > morning. And remember that a few rare souls don't just make a wish > when they see a meteor. Instead, they work hard to make that wish > real. So it was with Harvey Nininger, Denver's original "meteorite > man." > > Christopher Cokinos is a professor at Utah State University and > author of "The Fallen Sky: An Intimate History of Shooting > Stars" (Tarcher/Penguin July 2009). > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Vatican's eye on the heavens > By ERIC BERGER > HOUSTON CHRONICLE > Nov. 14, 2009, 9:58PM > http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6721242.html > > Brother Guy Consolmagno is curator of the meteorite collection at > Vatican City. > > Brother Guy Consolmagno, the curator of meteorites at the Vatican > Observatory, will give a free public lecture at 7:30 p.m. Thursday > at the Lunar and Planetary Institute, 3600 Bay Area Blvd. in the > Clear Lake area. Before coming to Houston, he spoke with science > writer Eric Berger about what the pope's astronomers do, about > Galileo and about the fate of Pluto. > > Q: What does a Vatican astronomer do? > > A: There are 15 Jesuits and one diocesan priest involved at the > Vatican Observatory, and basically 12 of us are astronomers and the > others help out with administration. We do astronomy. When I was > hired I was told one thing: Do good science. We each have our own > programs, ranging from cosmology and string theory all the way to > planetary science and meteor dust. We all do regular science, > collaborating with other scientists around the world. Our group > comes from four different continents and probably speaks a dozen > languages. For my own particular work I do planetary science, so I'm > the curator of the meteorite collection, and I do a lot of physical > studies of meteorites, their density, porosity, thermal properties. > And the goal of doing these measurements is to be able to understand > the conditions under which these rocks were formed 4.5 billion years > ago in the early solar system, and also to give us an idea about the > materials that made the planets. > > Q: I take it the church no longer persecutes its astronomers. > > A: Certainly the Catholic Church did wrong by Galileo, everybody > admits that. The history of what exactly happened is a lot more > confusing than the mythology. I don't claim to know the truth more > than anyone else. The odd thing is, what happened to Galileo is sort > of contrary to the whole tradition of the church supporting science, > and even supporting Galileo most of his life. It had to be a rude > shock to him because up until about 1630, he was in his late 60s > then, he had had nothing but support from the majority of the > church. The pope was his friend. Then suddenly he was brought to > trial for a book that had been published with church approval. After > the trial he was allowed to stay with his friend, the cardinal of > Sienna, and eventually go home. Those years during the trial were > just a very odd, odd anomaly. The best theory I've heard is that it > had to do with the fact that the Thirty Years War was going on, and > it was all tied up in local politics. But that doesn't make anywhere > near as cute a story as the church being anti-science. > > Q: Some 400 years later there's still a lot of tension between > science and religion in the United States. > > A: I think that comes from scientists who are not really comfortable > with religion because they don't know it very well; the religion > they know is what they learned when they were 12 years old. And many > religious people are not comfortable with science because they don't > know science very well. Face it, most people stopped learning > science and religion when they were about 12 years old, so they have > a very childish understanding of both: Religion is a big book of > rules and science is a big book of facts. Fortunately, neither is > true. > > Q: Why should science and faith co-exist? > > A: The fact is, they do. The hardest thing I've had in my job of > talking about this is trying to figure out why anyone would think > they couldn't. It's a funny thing. I was a scientist for 15 years > before I entered the Jesuits, and most of my friends in the science > world had no idea about my religious life, any more than I knew > theirs, because it's private. But when I became a Jesuit I was > surprised at how many of them came up to me and said, ?Oh, that's > wonderful. Let me tell you about the church I go to.? > > Q: Does the pope think Pluto should be a planet? > > A: The Catholic Church does not take official positions on matters > of science. We learned that lesson from Galileo, thank you. > > Q: Well, what do you think? Should Pluto be a planet? (In 2006 > astronomers declared it no longer should be considered a planet.) > > A: I was actually deeply involved in that whole discussion ? as was > Chris Corbally from our group, who helped write the final definition > ? because the Vatican Observatory is a member of the International > Astronomical Union. In retrospect, although it wasn't the way I > voted at the time, now that I've lived with it for three years I > think they made the right choice. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Enjoy... > > Regards, > Eric Wichman > Meteorites USA > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Sun Nov 15 20:05:38 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 17:05:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Mars Odyssey THEMIS Images: November 9-13, 2009 Message-ID: <200911160105.nAG15cUJ017586@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> MARS ODYSSEY THEMIS IMAGES November 9-13, 2009 o Windstreaks (09 November 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091109a o Arkhangelsky Crater (10 November 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091110a o Russell Crater Dunes (11 November 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091111a o Russell Crater Dunes (12 November 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091112a o Kaiser Crater Dunes (13 November 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091113a All of the THEMIS images are archived here: http://themis.asu.edu/latest.html NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory manages the 2001 Mars Odyssey mission for NASA's Office of Space Science, Washington, D.C. The Thermal Emission Imaging System (THEMIS) was developed by Arizona State University, Tempe, in co.oration with Raytheon Santa Barbara Remote Sensing. The THEMIS investigation is led by Dr. Philip Christensen at Arizona State University. Lockheed Martin Astronautics, Denver, is the prime contractor for the Odyssey project, and developed and built the orbiter. Mission operations are conducted jointly from Lockheed Martin and from JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena. From minador at yahoo.com Sun Nov 15 20:07:36 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 17:07:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & Competition) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <705172.43266.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Anne and all, I haven't seen that title. Do you mean "Field Guide to Meteors and Meteorites"? What I have in mind is a book similar to "The Complete Metalsmith". I haven't seen a book of similar style covering meteorite prep & preservation. Maybe a lot of that material is spread throughout the internet, but so is the stuff covering metalsmithing. I think it would be nice to have it in one handbook. Best regards, Mark --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Impactika at aol.com wrote: > From: Impactika at aol.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & Competition) > To: minador at yahoo.com, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 11:45 AM > Hello Mark and List, > > There is already a book that answers a lot of your > questions, not all of > them, but quite a few. It is the Handbook of Meteorites by > O. Richard Norton. > I certainly would recommend getting it. > > Also I would like to add one thing to the discussion about > helping new > meteorite enthusiasts; It is not because you did not see a > response on the List > that no help of response was sent. It is often a whole lot > better to email > that person privately to ask for additional details to > narrow down the > problem, or simply to protect that person from some public > embarassement. I know I > probably write 50 private emails for every one posted here. > > > And then we are not all always glued to our computer > (believe it or not!!), > personally I have a book (about meteorites of course) to > translate as > quickly as possible so it will be available in Tucson. > > And Norbert Classen and I have the dubious honor of having > to answer every > question that comes in on the IMCA questions email address. > Also time > consuming. > > And right now I have a whole lot of snow to shovel!!! > Have a nice day. > > Anne M. Black > _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) > _IMPACTIKA at aol.com_ > (mailto:IMPACTIKA at aol.com) > > Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. > _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) > > > > In a message dated 11/15/2009 8:30:51 AM Mountain Standard > Time, > minador at yahoo.com > writes: > Dear List, > > I think Adam has some great points.? I think people > forget how rare these > things are.? Prices often don't reflect that. > > I think people are more likely to give advice when a > "newbie" asks > something like, I've ruined several slices trying to do > such & such, I've tried A > and B, what else should I do.? it shows that they're > paying their dues, but > need a little advice which they can probably absorb > quickly, saving an > "expert's" time.? The sad thing is that a few > slices/specimens have been ruined > (maybe from "cheap, common NWA" material, but very rare, > finite material > nonetheless). > > How do you balance the protection of trade secrets and your > business vs. > the ideal of preserving this wonderful material?? I > suppose there are > techniques which are common in parallel fields like > lapidary, which one can assume > they'll figure it out the hard way (both hard on their > time/wallet but also > hard on meteorites).? I would say one should be > somewhat eager to help in > that case, since keeping quiet won't deter them but only > make possible the > damage of more specimens.? However, offering help > takes precious time, busy > people lack. > > What about the possibility of a guidebook highlighting some > of these > "common" things?? The first person(s) with the ability > to write said tome could > profit from the book sales, and many novices would benefit > from the tips.? > Sensitive trade secrets could be mentioned by name and the > disclaimer given > that you will have to experiment at the peril of your > collection and finances - > or maybe find a willing mentor.? > > The book would have to be relatively comprehensive - > covering the common > things which can be found in a lapidary book, but from a > meteorite point of > view (there might be possibility of tips like "it's wise to > practice this > technique using sandstone(?)? because it approximates > XYZ meteorites very well, > and you can rest assured that your learning curve isn't > busting the bank").? > And it would also cover the meteorites specific topics like > chemicals/oils > to avoid, etc.? Maybe some explanations of the > different textures you will > encounter in meteorites.? Maybe a section on thin > sections, epoxy plugs, and ? > > There might be room for general things like an explanation > meteorite > classifications, collecting strategies, strategies for > documenting a collection of > specimens, a list of common vendors, etc.? There are > lots of interesting, > useful things that could be added that I can't > imagine.? Of course, you would > have to have environmental, health and safety concerns > highlighted and > repeated throughout the book! > > I know this may sound a little out in left field, but it > would help with > the overall conservation of specimens and/or reduce poor, > albeit, harmless > results (as well as be an opportunity to make some > money).? Could it result in > increased completion?? Probably so, but those rushing > head long into the > wilderness probably can't be stopped anyway.? And > those who are inspired by the > book may take a stab at it, but realize it's expensive, > hard work and go > back to only buying/trading/collecting.? This book may > exist, but I don't > think so.? I can think of a few books which explain > etching and nickel testing, > but I can't think of anything which comprehensively covers > the preservation > and preparation of meteorite? specimens. > > Personally, I will always choose to buy from a handful of > dealers held in > high regard, who have invaluable reputations to protect (or > middlemen I trust > as friends I can trust).? And some field hunters I > know.? I've decided to > avoid attractive specimens of questionable pedigree, unless > I'm willing to > make the often expensive choice to advertise them as > "believed to be XYZ > specimen".???So this book would not? > cause the big dealers to lose my (rare) > business.? When a "newbie" asks a question, you can > point them to the "Bible". > > So what do you guys think?? Crazy?? > Brilliant?? (Someone with too much time > on his hands tonight?)? Is this an issue that's > already on the IMCA "to-do" > list?? Is this not commercially viable? > > (Cricket chirping??)? ;-) > > Clear skies, > Mark > > From bobadebt at ec.rr.com Sun Nov 15 20:14:58 2009 From: bobadebt at ec.rr.com (David Deyarmin) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:14:58 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] 49 Gram Ghubara Slice Message-ID: <43E6BA0949F54A20A138239ABCF495CE@owner118c1707d> I have a nice slice of Ghubara available It is 42mm x 110mm x 5mm and weighs 49 grams I am asking $49 plus shipping If you are interested please contact me off list at bobadebt at ec.rr.com Thanks Here are some images of it http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p298/BobaDebt/Meteorites/Ghubara/49grSlice1.jpg http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p298/BobaDebt/Meteorites/Ghubara/49grSlice2.jpg From mrmeteorite at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 20:13:34 2009 From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com (Ruben Garcia) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 18:13:34 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Two Days Hunting for Meteorites - Learning is free! Message-ID: <80659e1a0911151713r14587dceydbbb520252ad6d33@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I just spent two days in the desert - in a neighboring state -?hoping to find another rare achondrite. An?elusive U.S. Lunar or Martian meteorite is always on my mind. Unfortunately, this time I came back with a handful of ordinary chondrites. Nothing rare but still had a good time! Here are the pictures of the six stones I found. Strangely, the first two seem to be the same type and the last four -weathered chondrites - are different. http://www.mr-meteorite.net/twodaysworth.htm P.S.? Learning is encouraged and FREE?at my website and videos! -- Rock On! Ruben Garcia Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u From bobadebt at ec.rr.com Sun Nov 15 20:21:46 2009 From: bobadebt at ec.rr.com (David Deyarmin) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:21:46 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] 49 Garm Slice of Ghubara Message-ID: <52BFB13E3A904F0DB43CAC3EBF6FF47E@owner118c1707d> I have a nice slice of Ghubara available It is 42mm x 110mm x 5mm and weighs 49 grams I am asking $49 plus shipping If you are interested please contact me off list at bobadebt at ec.rr.com Thanks Here are some images of it http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p298/BobaDebt/Meteorites/Ghubara/49grSlice1.jpg http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p298/BobaDebt/Meteorites/Ghubara/49grSlice2.jpg From eric at meteoritesusa.com Sun Nov 15 20:34:26 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 17:34:26 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: Meteorites For Sale Message-ID: <4B00AC22.5070105@meteoritesusa.com> Hi All, I've added some nice etched and polished meteorite slices to the site. http://www.meteoritesusa.com/meteorites-for-sale.htm Brenham Pallasite Muonionalusta Canyon Diablo Nantan First come first served. Sorry, no holds. Will ship tomorrow. Free shipping inside USA on orders over $50. Enjoy... Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA www.meteoritesusa.com From minador at yahoo.com Sun Nov 15 20:43:32 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 17:43:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & Competition) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <654977.58613.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Dennis and List, I would like to check out that new book (published by the "gals"?). I'm sure I'll get the chance at this years show. The other books I am familiar with (except maybe the one Anne mentioned). But none of these focus on the lapidary side of meteorites, the practical steps involved. I hope I wasn't clear about that when I mentioned possible "filler" material for the book (like cataloging, classifications, etc.). Such material is probably not appropriate for an illustrated guidebook for cutting, polishing, protecting (etc., etc.) the various types of meteorites. But I was just trying to throw out additional ideas. Best regards, Mark --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Dennis Miller wrote: > From: Dennis Miller > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & Competition) > To: impactika at aol.com, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 12:40 PM > > Como esta? Anne and List???Richard's book > will always be a standard. > I recently bought Caroline Smith, Sara Russell and Gretchen > Benedix's > new book "Meteorites". These gals "Drs" put together a > great book for > those with the slightest interest in meteorites. It's basic > and > very easy to read. Loads of great pictures too. I also like > Kevin Kichinka's > "The Art of Collecting Meteorites".? Now, if you > aren't a "Newbie" you > will love McSween's "Meteorites and Their Parent Planets". > I use my copy > to fill up the shelf! But, what a Great Hobby, no matter > what some say. > Have A Great Day!???Sorry Anne but, Think > Snow!!! > Dennis > > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: Impactika at aol.com > > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:45:39 -0500 > > To: minador at yahoo.com; > meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was > Meteorites & Competition) > > > > Hello Mark and List, > > > > There is already a book that answers a lot of your > questions, not all of > > them, but quite a few. It is the Handbook of > Meteorites by O. Richard Norton. > > I certainly would recommend getting it. > > > > Also I would like to add one thing to the discussion > about helping new > > meteorite enthusiasts; It is not because you did not > see a response on the List > > that no help of response was sent. It is often a whole > lot better to email > > that person privately to ask for additional details to > narrow down the > > problem, or simply to protect that person from some > public embarassement. I know I > > probably write 50 private emails for every one posted > here. > > > > And then we are not all always glued to our computer > (believe it or not!!), > > personally I have a book (about meteorites of course) > to translate as > > quickly as possible so it will be available in > Tucson. > > > > And Norbert Classen and I have the dubious honor of > having to answer every > > question that comes in on the IMCA questions email > address. Also time > > consuming. > > > > And right now I have a whole lot of snow to shovel!!! > > Have a nice day. > > > > Anne M. Black > > _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) > > _IMPACTIKA at aol.com_ > (mailto:IMPACTIKA at aol.com) > > Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. > > _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/15/2009 8:30:51 AM Mountain > Standard Time, > > minador at yahoo.com > writes: > > Dear List, > > > > I think Adam has some great points. I think people > forget how rare these > > things are. Prices often don't reflect that. > > > > I think people are more likely to give advice when a > "newbie" asks > > something like, I've ruined several slices trying to > do such & such, I've tried A > > and B, what else should I do. it shows that they're > paying their dues, but > > need a little advice which they can probably absorb > quickly, saving an > > "expert's" time. The sad thing is that a few > slices/specimens have been ruined > > (maybe from "cheap, common NWA" material, but very > rare, finite material > > nonetheless). > > > > How do you balance the protection of trade secrets and > your business vs. > > the ideal of preserving this wonderful material? I > suppose there are > > techniques which are common in parallel fields like > lapidary, which one can assume > > they'll figure it out the hard way (both hard on their > time/wallet but also > > hard on meteorites). I would say one should be > somewhat eager to help in > > that case, since keeping quiet won't deter them but > only make possible the > > damage of more specimens. However, offering help takes > precious time, busy > > people lack. > > > > What about the possibility of a guidebook highlighting > some of these > > "common" things? The first person(s) with the ability > to write said tome could > > profit from the book sales, and many novices would > benefit from the tips. > > Sensitive trade secrets could be mentioned by name and > the disclaimer given > > that you will have to experiment at the peril of your > collection and finances - > > or maybe find a willing mentor. > > > > The book would have to be relatively comprehensive - > covering the common > > things which can be found in a lapidary book, but from > a meteorite point of > > view (there might be possibility of tips like "it's > wise to practice this > > technique using sandstone(?) because it approximates > XYZ meteorites very well, > > and you can rest assured that your learning curve > isn't busting the bank"). > > And it would also cover the meteorites specific topics > like chemicals/oils > > to avoid, etc. Maybe some explanations of the > different textures you will > > encounter in meteorites. Maybe a section on thin > sections, epoxy plugs, and ? > > > > There might be room for general things like an > explanation meteorite > > classifications, collecting strategies, strategies for > documenting a collection of > > specimens, a list of common vendors, etc. There are > lots of interesting, > > useful things that could be added that I can't > imagine. Of course, you would > > have to have environmental, health and safety concerns > highlighted and > > repeated throughout the book! > > > > I know this may sound a little out in left field, but > it would help with > > the overall conservation of specimens and/or reduce > poor, albeit, harmless > > results (as well as be an opportunity to make some > money). Could it result in > > increased completion? Probably so, but those rushing > head long into the > > wilderness probably can't be stopped anyway. And those > who are inspired by the > > book may take a stab at it, but realize it's > expensive, hard work and go > > back to only buying/trading/collecting. This book may > exist, but I don't > > think so. I can think of a few books which explain > etching and nickel testing, > > but I can't think of anything which comprehensively > covers the preservation > > and preparation of meteorite specimens. > > > > Personally, I will always choose to buy from a handful > of dealers held in > > high regard, who have invaluable reputations to > protect (or middlemen I trust > > as friends I can trust). And some field hunters I > know. I've decided to > > avoid attractive specimens of questionable pedigree, > unless I'm willing to > > make the often expensive choice to advertise them as > "believed to be XYZ > > specimen". So this book would not cause the big > dealers to lose my (rare) > > business. When a "newbie" asks a question, you can > point them to the "Bible". > > > > So what do you guys think? Crazy? Brilliant? (Someone > with too much time > > on his hands tonight?) Is this an issue that's already > on the IMCA "to-do" > > list? Is this not commercially viable? > > > > (Cricket chirping??) ;-) > > > > Clear skies, > > Mark > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ??? > ???????? > ?????? ??? > ? > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteoritemike at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 21:09:06 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 21:09:06 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & Competition) In-Reply-To: <654977.58613.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <654977.58613.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Mark and List, Such a book sounds like a great idea. A bunch of that info is located in the online Meteorite Times archives. There are several old articles by Jim Tobin that cover some of these lapidary type topics. But having all of those, and more like them, in one book would be nice. Best regards, MikeG On 11/15/09, Mark Bowling wrote: > Hi Dennis and List, > > I would like to check out that new book (published by the "gals"?). I'm > sure I'll get the chance at this years show. > > The other books I am familiar with (except maybe the one Anne mentioned). > But none of these focus on the lapidary side of meteorites, the practical > steps involved. > > I hope I wasn't clear about that when I mentioned possible "filler" material > for the book (like cataloging, classifications, etc.). Such material is > probably not appropriate for an illustrated guidebook for cutting, > polishing, protecting (etc., etc.) the various types of meteorites. But I > was just trying to throw out additional ideas. > > Best regards, > Mark > > --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Dennis Miller wrote: > >> From: Dennis Miller >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & >> Competition) >> To: impactika at aol.com, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 12:40 PM >> >> Como esta? Anne and List Richard's book >> will always be a standard. >> I recently bought Caroline Smith, Sara Russell and Gretchen >> Benedix's >> new book "Meteorites". These gals "Drs" put together a >> great book for >> those with the slightest interest in meteorites. It's basic >> and >> very easy to read. Loads of great pictures too. I also like >> Kevin Kichinka's >> "The Art of Collecting Meteorites". Now, if you >> aren't a "Newbie" you >> will love McSween's "Meteorites and Their Parent Planets". >> I use my copy >> to fill up the shelf! But, what a Great Hobby, no matter >> what some say. >> Have A Great Day! Sorry Anne but, Think >> Snow!!! >> Dennis >> >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> > From: Impactika at aol.com >> > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:45:39 -0500 >> > To: minador at yahoo.com; >> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was >> Meteorites & Competition) >> > >> > Hello Mark and List, >> > >> > There is already a book that answers a lot of your >> questions, not all of >> > them, but quite a few. It is the Handbook of >> Meteorites by O. Richard Norton. >> > I certainly would recommend getting it. >> > >> > Also I would like to add one thing to the discussion >> about helping new >> > meteorite enthusiasts; It is not because you did not >> see a response on the List >> > that no help of response was sent. It is often a whole >> lot better to email >> > that person privately to ask for additional details to >> narrow down the >> > problem, or simply to protect that person from some >> public embarassement. I know I >> > probably write 50 private emails for every one posted >> here. >> > >> > And then we are not all always glued to our computer >> (believe it or not!!), >> > personally I have a book (about meteorites of course) >> to translate as >> > quickly as possible so it will be available in >> Tucson. >> > >> > And Norbert Classen and I have the dubious honor of >> having to answer every >> > question that comes in on the IMCA questions email >> address. Also time >> > consuming. >> > >> > And right now I have a whole lot of snow to shovel!!! >> > Have a nice day. >> > >> > Anne M. Black >> > _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) >> > _IMPACTIKA at aol.com_ >> (mailto:IMPACTIKA at aol.com) >> > Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. >> > _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) >> > >> > >> > >> > In a message dated 11/15/2009 8:30:51 AM Mountain >> Standard Time, >> > minador at yahoo.com >> writes: >> > Dear List, >> > >> > I think Adam has some great points. I think people >> forget how rare these >> > things are. Prices often don't reflect that. >> > >> > I think people are more likely to give advice when a >> "newbie" asks >> > something like, I've ruined several slices trying to >> do such & such, I've tried A >> > and B, what else should I do. it shows that they're >> paying their dues, but >> > need a little advice which they can probably absorb >> quickly, saving an >> > "expert's" time. The sad thing is that a few >> slices/specimens have been ruined >> > (maybe from "cheap, common NWA" material, but very >> rare, finite material >> > nonetheless). >> > >> > How do you balance the protection of trade secrets and >> your business vs. >> > the ideal of preserving this wonderful material? I >> suppose there are >> > techniques which are common in parallel fields like >> lapidary, which one can assume >> > they'll figure it out the hard way (both hard on their >> time/wallet but also >> > hard on meteorites). I would say one should be >> somewhat eager to help in >> > that case, since keeping quiet won't deter them but >> only make possible the >> > damage of more specimens. However, offering help takes >> precious time, busy >> > people lack. >> > >> > What about the possibility of a guidebook highlighting >> some of these >> > "common" things? The first person(s) with the ability >> to write said tome could >> > profit from the book sales, and many novices would >> benefit from the tips. >> > Sensitive trade secrets could be mentioned by name and >> the disclaimer given >> > that you will have to experiment at the peril of your >> collection and finances - >> > or maybe find a willing mentor. >> > >> > The book would have to be relatively comprehensive - >> covering the common >> > things which can be found in a lapidary book, but from >> a meteorite point of >> > view (there might be possibility of tips like "it's >> wise to practice this >> > technique using sandstone(?) because it approximates >> XYZ meteorites very well, >> > and you can rest assured that your learning curve >> isn't busting the bank"). >> > And it would also cover the meteorites specific topics >> like chemicals/oils >> > to avoid, etc. Maybe some explanations of the >> different textures you will >> > encounter in meteorites. Maybe a section on thin >> sections, epoxy plugs, and ? >> > >> > There might be room for general things like an >> explanation meteorite >> > classifications, collecting strategies, strategies for >> documenting a collection of >> > specimens, a list of common vendors, etc. There are >> lots of interesting, >> > useful things that could be added that I can't >> imagine. Of course, you would >> > have to have environmental, health and safety concerns >> highlighted and >> > repeated throughout the book! >> > >> > I know this may sound a little out in left field, but >> it would help with >> > the overall conservation of specimens and/or reduce >> poor, albeit, harmless >> > results (as well as be an opportunity to make some >> money). Could it result in >> > increased completion? Probably so, but those rushing >> head long into the >> > wilderness probably can't be stopped anyway. And those >> who are inspired by the >> > book may take a stab at it, but realize it's >> expensive, hard work and go >> > back to only buying/trading/collecting. This book may >> exist, but I don't >> > think so. I can think of a few books which explain >> etching and nickel testing, >> > but I can't think of anything which comprehensively >> covers the preservation >> > and preparation of meteorite specimens. >> > >> > Personally, I will always choose to buy from a handful >> of dealers held in >> > high regard, who have invaluable reputations to >> protect (or middlemen I trust >> > as friends I can trust). And some field hunters I >> know. I've decided to >> > avoid attractive specimens of questionable pedigree, >> unless I'm willing to >> > make the often expensive choice to advertise them as >> "believed to be XYZ >> > specimen". So this book would not cause the big >> dealers to lose my (rare) >> > business. When a "newbie" asks a question, you can >> point them to the "Bible". >> > >> > So what do you guys think? Crazy? Brilliant? (Someone >> with too much time >> > on his hands tonight?) Is this an issue that's already >> on the IMCA "to-do" >> > list? Is this not commercially viable? >> > >> > (Cricket chirping??) ;-) >> > >> > Clear skies, >> > Mark >> > >> > ______________________________________________ >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. >> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Florida, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com FaceBook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone MySpace - http://www.myspace.com/fine_meteorites_4_sale Twitter - Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone eBay - http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/maypickle .......................................................... From eric at meteoritesusa.com Sun Nov 15 22:04:51 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:04:51 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & Competition) In-Reply-To: References: <654977.58613.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B00C153.6000702@meteoritesusa.com> All this talk about a guide to meteorites for newbies makes it sound like the perfect venue would be the Meteorite Wiki. www.meteoritewiki.com Seems pretty simple to me. Everyone that would like to know anything about meteorites could learn it there. A book, is so, well... Old school... ;) (just kidding) Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA P.S. I know I'll probably get some brash emails on that one... ;) Galactic Stone & Ironworks wrote: > Hi Mark and List, > > Such a book sounds like a great idea. A bunch of that info is located > in the online Meteorite Times archives. There are several old > articles by Jim Tobin that cover some of these lapidary type topics. > > But having all of those, and more like them, in one book would be nice. > > Best regards, > > MikeG > > On 11/15/09, Mark Bowling wrote: > >> Hi Dennis and List, >> >> I would like to check out that new book (published by the "gals"?). I'm >> sure I'll get the chance at this years show. >> >> The other books I am familiar with (except maybe the one Anne mentioned). >> But none of these focus on the lapidary side of meteorites, the practical >> steps involved. >> >> I hope I wasn't clear about that when I mentioned possible "filler" material >> for the book (like cataloging, classifications, etc.). Such material is >> probably not appropriate for an illustrated guidebook for cutting, >> polishing, protecting (etc., etc.) the various types of meteorites. But I >> was just trying to throw out additional ideas. >> >> Best regards, >> Mark >> >> --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Dennis Miller wrote: >> >> >>> From: Dennis Miller >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & >>> Competition) >>> To: impactika at aol.com, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 12:40 PM >>> >>> Como esta? Anne and List Richard's book >>> will always be a standard. >>> I recently bought Caroline Smith, Sara Russell and Gretchen >>> Benedix's >>> new book "Meteorites". These gals "Drs" put together a >>> great book for >>> those with the slightest interest in meteorites. It's basic >>> and >>> very easy to read. Loads of great pictures too. I also like >>> Kevin Kichinka's >>> "The Art of Collecting Meteorites". Now, if you >>> aren't a "Newbie" you >>> will love McSween's "Meteorites and Their Parent Planets". >>> I use my copy >>> to fill up the shelf! But, what a Great Hobby, no matter >>> what some say. >>> Have A Great Day! Sorry Anne but, Think >>> Snow!!! >>> Dennis >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------- >>> >>>> From: Impactika at aol.com >>>> Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:45:39 -0500 >>>> To: minador at yahoo.com; >>>> >>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was >>>> >>> Meteorites & Competition) >>> >>>> Hello Mark and List, >>>> >>>> There is already a book that answers a lot of your >>>> >>> questions, not all of >>> >>>> them, but quite a few. It is the Handbook of >>>> >>> Meteorites by O. Richard Norton. >>> >>>> I certainly would recommend getting it. >>>> >>>> Also I would like to add one thing to the discussion >>>> >>> about helping new >>> >>>> meteorite enthusiasts; It is not because you did not >>>> >>> see a response on the List >>> >>>> that no help of response was sent. It is often a whole >>>> >>> lot better to email >>> >>>> that person privately to ask for additional details to >>>> >>> narrow down the >>> >>>> problem, or simply to protect that person from some >>>> >>> public embarassement. I know I >>> >>>> probably write 50 private emails for every one posted >>>> >>> here. >>> >>>> And then we are not all always glued to our computer >>>> >>> (believe it or not!!), >>> >>>> personally I have a book (about meteorites of course) >>>> >>> to translate as >>> >>>> quickly as possible so it will be available in >>>> >>> Tucson. >>> >>>> And Norbert Classen and I have the dubious honor of >>>> >>> having to answer every >>> >>>> question that comes in on the IMCA questions email >>>> >>> address. Also time >>> >>>> consuming. >>>> >>>> And right now I have a whole lot of snow to shovel!!! >>>> Have a nice day. >>>> >>>> Anne M. Black >>>> _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) >>>> _IMPACTIKA at aol.com_ >>>> >>> (mailto:IMPACTIKA at aol.com) >>> >>>> Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. >>>> _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 11/15/2009 8:30:51 AM Mountain >>>> >>> Standard Time, >>> >>>> minador at yahoo.com >>>> >>> writes: >>> >>>> Dear List, >>>> >>>> I think Adam has some great points. I think people >>>> >>> forget how rare these >>> >>>> things are. Prices often don't reflect that. >>>> >>>> I think people are more likely to give advice when a >>>> >>> "newbie" asks >>> >>>> something like, I've ruined several slices trying to >>>> >>> do such & such, I've tried A >>> >>>> and B, what else should I do. it shows that they're >>>> >>> paying their dues, but >>> >>>> need a little advice which they can probably absorb >>>> >>> quickly, saving an >>> >>>> "expert's" time. The sad thing is that a few >>>> >>> slices/specimens have been ruined >>> >>>> (maybe from "cheap, common NWA" material, but very >>>> >>> rare, finite material >>> >>>> nonetheless). >>>> >>>> How do you balance the protection of trade secrets and >>>> >>> your business vs. >>> >>>> the ideal of preserving this wonderful material? I >>>> >>> suppose there are >>> >>>> techniques which are common in parallel fields like >>>> >>> lapidary, which one can assume >>> >>>> they'll figure it out the hard way (both hard on their >>>> >>> time/wallet but also >>> >>>> hard on meteorites). I would say one should be >>>> >>> somewhat eager to help in >>> >>>> that case, since keeping quiet won't deter them but >>>> >>> only make possible the >>> >>>> damage of more specimens. However, offering help takes >>>> >>> precious time, busy >>> >>>> people lack. >>>> >>>> What about the possibility of a guidebook highlighting >>>> >>> some of these >>> >>>> "common" things? The first person(s) with the ability >>>> >>> to write said tome could >>> >>>> profit from the book sales, and many novices would >>>> >>> benefit from the tips. >>> >>>> Sensitive trade secrets could be mentioned by name and >>>> >>> the disclaimer given >>> >>>> that you will have to experiment at the peril of your >>>> >>> collection and finances - >>> >>>> or maybe find a willing mentor. >>>> >>>> The book would have to be relatively comprehensive - >>>> >>> covering the common >>> >>>> things which can be found in a lapidary book, but from >>>> >>> a meteorite point of >>> >>>> view (there might be possibility of tips like "it's >>>> >>> wise to practice this >>> >>>> technique using sandstone(?) because it approximates >>>> >>> XYZ meteorites very well, >>> >>>> and you can rest assured that your learning curve >>>> >>> isn't busting the bank"). >>> >>>> And it would also cover the meteorites specific topics >>>> >>> like chemicals/oils >>> >>>> to avoid, etc. Maybe some explanations of the >>>> >>> different textures you will >>> >>>> encounter in meteorites. Maybe a section on thin >>>> >>> sections, epoxy plugs, and ? >>> >>>> There might be room for general things like an >>>> >>> explanation meteorite >>> >>>> classifications, collecting strategies, strategies for >>>> >>> documenting a collection of >>> >>>> specimens, a list of common vendors, etc. There are >>>> >>> lots of interesting, >>> >>>> useful things that could be added that I can't >>>> >>> imagine. Of course, you would >>> >>>> have to have environmental, health and safety concerns >>>> >>> highlighted and >>> >>>> repeated throughout the book! >>>> >>>> I know this may sound a little out in left field, but >>>> >>> it would help with >>> >>>> the overall conservation of specimens and/or reduce >>>> >>> poor, albeit, harmless >>> >>>> results (as well as be an opportunity to make some >>>> >>> money). Could it result in >>> >>>> increased completion? Probably so, but those rushing >>>> >>> head long into the >>> >>>> wilderness probably can't be stopped anyway. And those >>>> >>> who are inspired by the >>> >>>> book may take a stab at it, but realize it's >>>> >>> expensive, hard work and go >>> >>>> back to only buying/trading/collecting. This book may >>>> >>> exist, but I don't >>> >>>> think so. I can think of a few books which explain >>>> >>> etching and nickel testing, >>> >>>> but I can't think of anything which comprehensively >>>> >>> covers the preservation >>> >>>> and preparation of meteorite specimens. >>>> >>>> Personally, I will always choose to buy from a handful >>>> >>> of dealers held in >>> >>>> high regard, who have invaluable reputations to >>>> >>> protect (or middlemen I trust >>> >>>> as friends I can trust). And some field hunters I >>>> >>> know. I've decided to >>> >>>> avoid attractive specimens of questionable pedigree, >>>> >>> unless I'm willing to >>> >>>> make the often expensive choice to advertise them as >>>> >>> "believed to be XYZ >>> >>>> specimen". So this book would not cause the big >>>> >>> dealers to lose my (rare) >>> >>>> business. When a "newbie" asks a question, you can >>>> >>> point them to the "Bible". >>> >>>> So what do you guys think? Crazy? Brilliant? (Someone >>>> >>> with too much time >>> >>>> on his hands tonight?) Is this an issue that's already >>>> >>> on the IMCA "to-do" >>> >>>> list? Is this not commercially viable? >>>> >>>> (Cricket chirping????) ;-) >>>> >>>> Clear skies, >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. >>> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> > > > From spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 15 22:40:39 2009 From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com (Melanie Matthews) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:40:39 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Mars Odyssey THEMIS Images: November 9-13, 2009 In-Reply-To: <200911160105.nAG15cUJ017586@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> References: <200911160105.nAG15cUJ017586@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> Message-ID: Amazing pics! I can imagine all the meteorites on the surfice of Mars (and our Moon)!! *drools* ----------- Melanie IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get! ---------------------------------------- > From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 17:05:38 -0800 > Subject: [meteorite-list] Mars Odyssey THEMIS Images: November 9-13, 2009 > > > MARS ODYSSEY THEMIS IMAGES > November 9-13, 2009 > > o Windstreaks (09 November 2009) > http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091109a > > o Arkhangelsky Crater (10 November 2009) > http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091110a > > o Russell Crater Dunes (11 November 2009) > http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091111a > > o Russell Crater Dunes (12 November 2009) > http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091112a > > o Kaiser Crater Dunes (13 November 2009) > http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091113a > > > All of the THEMIS images are archived here: > > http://themis.asu.edu/latest.html > > NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory manages the 2001 Mars Odyssey mission > for NASA's Office of Space Science, Washington, D.C. The Thermal Emission > Imaging System (THEMIS) was developed by Arizona State University, > Tempe, in co.oration with Raytheon Santa Barbara Remote Sensing. > The THEMIS investigation is led by Dr. Philip Christensen at Arizona State > University. Lockheed Martin Astronautics, Denver, is the prime contractor > for the Odyssey project, and developed and built the orbiter. Mission > operations are conducted jointly from Lockheed Martin and from JPL, a > division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena. > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Friends get your Flickr, Yelp, and Digg updates when they e-mail you. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691817 From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Sun Nov 15 22:46:37 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 04:46:37 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites &Competition) In-Reply-To: <4B00C153.6000702@meteoritesusa.com> References: <654977.58613.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4B00C153.6000702@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: <002801ca666f$6720db50$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> Well, maybe we should compile a list of already existing books, which are a good read for newbies and oldbies first, before we write a new one? (uuuh such a comprehensive "handbook" of meteorites&collecting&peparation, Mark suggested, I fear, will be in the end such a thick volume, that most newbies wouldn't be able to afford it....) Martin PS: Still wondering which "groups" and which horrible incidents you & other were alluding to.. I mean, it's somewhat difficult to discuss a problem, if we don't know, whether such a problem does exist at all... -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Meteorites USA Gesendet: Montag, 16. November 2009 04:05 An: Galactic Stone & Ironworks Cc: Mark Bowling; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites &Competition) All this talk about a guide to meteorites for newbies makes it sound like the perfect venue would be the Meteorite Wiki. www.meteoritewiki.com Seems pretty simple to me. Everyone that would like to know anything about meteorites could learn it there. A book, is so, well... Old school... ;) (just kidding) Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA P.S. I know I'll probably get some brash emails on that one... ;) Galactic Stone & Ironworks wrote: > Hi Mark and List, > > Such a book sounds like a great idea. A bunch of that info is located > in the online Meteorite Times archives. There are several old > articles by Jim Tobin that cover some of these lapidary type topics. > > But having all of those, and more like them, in one book would be nice. > > Best regards, > > MikeG > > On 11/15/09, Mark Bowling wrote: > >> Hi Dennis and List, >> >> I would like to check out that new book (published by the "gals"?). I'm >> sure I'll get the chance at this years show. >> >> The other books I am familiar with (except maybe the one Anne mentioned). >> But none of these focus on the lapidary side of meteorites, the practical >> steps involved. >> >> I hope I wasn't clear about that when I mentioned possible "filler" material >> for the book (like cataloging, classifications, etc.). Such material is >> probably not appropriate for an illustrated guidebook for cutting, >> polishing, protecting (etc., etc.) the various types of meteorites. But I >> was just trying to throw out additional ideas. >> >> Best regards, >> Mark >> >> --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Dennis Miller wrote: >> >> >>> From: Dennis Miller >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & >>> Competition) >>> To: impactika at aol.com, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 12:40 PM >>> >>> Como esta? Anne and List Richard's book >>> will always be a standard. >>> I recently bought Caroline Smith, Sara Russell and Gretchen >>> Benedix's >>> new book "Meteorites". These gals "Drs" put together a >>> great book for >>> those with the slightest interest in meteorites. It's basic >>> and >>> very easy to read. Loads of great pictures too. I also like >>> Kevin Kichinka's >>> "The Art of Collecting Meteorites". Now, if you >>> aren't a "Newbie" you >>> will love McSween's "Meteorites and Their Parent Planets". >>> I use my copy >>> to fill up the shelf! But, what a Great Hobby, no matter >>> what some say. >>> Have A Great Day! Sorry Anne but, Think >>> Snow!!! >>> Dennis >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------- >>> >>>> From: Impactika at aol.com >>>> Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:45:39 -0500 >>>> To: minador at yahoo.com; >>>> >>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was >>>> >>> Meteorites & Competition) >>> >>>> Hello Mark and List, >>>> >>>> There is already a book that answers a lot of your >>>> >>> questions, not all of >>> >>>> them, but quite a few. It is the Handbook of >>>> >>> Meteorites by O. Richard Norton. >>> >>>> I certainly would recommend getting it. >>>> >>>> Also I would like to add one thing to the discussion >>>> >>> about helping new >>> >>>> meteorite enthusiasts; It is not because you did not >>>> >>> see a response on the List >>> >>>> that no help of response was sent. It is often a whole >>>> >>> lot better to email >>> >>>> that person privately to ask for additional details to >>>> >>> narrow down the >>> >>>> problem, or simply to protect that person from some >>>> >>> public embarassement. I know I >>> >>>> probably write 50 private emails for every one posted >>>> >>> here. >>> >>>> And then we are not all always glued to our computer >>>> >>> (believe it or not!!), >>> >>>> personally I have a book (about meteorites of course) >>>> >>> to translate as >>> >>>> quickly as possible so it will be available in >>>> >>> Tucson. >>> >>>> And Norbert Classen and I have the dubious honor of >>>> >>> having to answer every >>> >>>> question that comes in on the IMCA questions email >>>> >>> address. Also time >>> >>>> consuming. >>>> >>>> And right now I have a whole lot of snow to shovel!!! >>>> Have a nice day. >>>> >>>> Anne M. Black >>>> _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) >>>> _IMPACTIKA at aol.com_ >>>> >>> (mailto:IMPACTIKA at aol.com) >>> >>>> Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. >>>> _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 11/15/2009 8:30:51 AM Mountain >>>> >>> Standard Time, >>> >>>> minador at yahoo.com >>>> >>> writes: >>> >>>> Dear List, >>>> >>>> I think Adam has some great points. I think people >>>> >>> forget how rare these >>> >>>> things are. Prices often don't reflect that. >>>> >>>> I think people are more likely to give advice when a >>>> >>> "newbie" asks >>> >>>> something like, I've ruined several slices trying to >>>> >>> do such & such, I've tried A >>> >>>> and B, what else should I do. it shows that they're >>>> >>> paying their dues, but >>> >>>> need a little advice which they can probably absorb >>>> >>> quickly, saving an >>> >>>> "expert's" time. The sad thing is that a few >>>> >>> slices/specimens have been ruined >>> >>>> (maybe from "cheap, common NWA" material, but very >>>> >>> rare, finite material >>> >>>> nonetheless). >>>> >>>> How do you balance the protection of trade secrets and >>>> >>> your business vs. >>> >>>> the ideal of preserving this wonderful material? I >>>> >>> suppose there are >>> >>>> techniques which are common in parallel fields like >>>> >>> lapidary, which one can assume >>> >>>> they'll figure it out the hard way (both hard on their >>>> >>> time/wallet but also >>> >>>> hard on meteorites). I would say one should be >>>> >>> somewhat eager to help in >>> >>>> that case, since keeping quiet won't deter them but >>>> >>> only make possible the >>> >>>> damage of more specimens. However, offering help takes >>>> >>> precious time, busy >>> >>>> people lack. >>>> >>>> What about the possibility of a guidebook highlighting >>>> >>> some of these >>> >>>> "common" things? The first person(s) with the ability >>>> >>> to write said tome could >>> >>>> profit from the book sales, and many novices would >>>> >>> benefit from the tips. >>> >>>> Sensitive trade secrets could be mentioned by name and >>>> >>> the disclaimer given >>> >>>> that you will have to experiment at the peril of your >>>> >>> collection and finances - >>> >>>> or maybe find a willing mentor. >>>> >>>> The book would have to be relatively comprehensive - >>>> >>> covering the common >>> >>>> things which can be found in a lapidary book, but from >>>> >>> a meteorite point of >>> >>>> view (there might be possibility of tips like "it's >>>> >>> wise to practice this >>> >>>> technique using sandstone(?) because it approximates >>>> >>> XYZ meteorites very well, >>> >>>> and you can rest assured that your learning curve >>>> >>> isn't busting the bank"). >>> >>>> And it would also cover the meteorites specific topics >>>> >>> like chemicals/oils >>> >>>> to avoid, etc. Maybe some explanations of the >>>> >>> different textures you will >>> >>>> encounter in meteorites. Maybe a section on thin >>>> >>> sections, epoxy plugs, and ? >>> >>>> There might be room for general things like an >>>> >>> explanation meteorite >>> >>>> classifications, collecting strategies, strategies for >>>> >>> documenting a collection of >>> >>>> specimens, a list of common vendors, etc. There are >>>> >>> lots of interesting, >>> >>>> useful things that could be added that I can't >>>> >>> imagine. Of course, you would >>> >>>> have to have environmental, health and safety concerns >>>> >>> highlighted and >>> >>>> repeated throughout the book! >>>> >>>> I know this may sound a little out in left field, but >>>> >>> it would help with >>> >>>> the overall conservation of specimens and/or reduce >>>> >>> poor, albeit, harmless >>> >>>> results (as well as be an opportunity to make some >>>> >>> money). Could it result in >>> >>>> increased completion? Probably so, but those rushing >>>> >>> head long into the >>> >>>> wilderness probably can't be stopped anyway. And those >>>> >>> who are inspired by the >>> >>>> book may take a stab at it, but realize it's >>>> >>> expensive, hard work and go >>> >>>> back to only buying/trading/collecting. This book may >>>> >>> exist, but I don't >>> >>>> think so. I can think of a few books which explain >>>> >>> etching and nickel testing, >>> >>>> but I can't think of anything which comprehensively >>>> >>> covers the preservation >>> >>>> and preparation of meteorite specimens. >>>> >>>> Personally, I will always choose to buy from a handful >>>> >>> of dealers held in >>> >>>> high regard, who have invaluable reputations to >>>> >>> protect (or middlemen I trust >>> >>>> as friends I can trust). And some field hunters I >>>> >>> know. I've decided to >>> >>>> avoid attractive specimens of questionable pedigree, >>>> >>> unless I'm willing to >>> >>>> make the often expensive choice to advertise them as >>>> >>> "believed to be XYZ >>> >>>> specimen". So this book would not cause the big >>>> >>> dealers to lose my (rare) >>> >>>> business. When a "newbie" asks a question, you can >>>> >>> point them to the "Bible". >>> >>>> So what do you guys think? Crazy? Brilliant? (Someone >>>> >>> with too much time >>> >>>> on his hands tonight?) Is this an issue that's already >>>> >>> on the IMCA "to-do" >>> >>>> list? Is this not commercially viable? >>>> >>>> (Cricket chirping????) ;-) >>>> >>>> Clear skies, >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. >>> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> > > > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From almitt at kconline.com Sun Nov 15 23:23:17 2009 From: almitt at kconline.com (al mitt) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 23:23:17 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites &Competition) In-Reply-To: <4B00C153.6000702@meteoritesusa.com> References: <654977.58613.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4B00C153.6000702@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: <795FEA91672C44E5BB9030FE496CB89D@StarmanPC> Greetings, Probably the closet book for someonen starting out is the Meteorite & Tektite Collectors Handbook by Bagnall. It is probably outdated now and hard to find a copy but just needs a second addtion. Why reinvent the wheel and have a thousand sites when you have good resources all ready available? --AL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Meteorites USA" To: "Galactic Stone & Ironworks" Cc: "Mark Bowling" ; Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 10:04 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites &Competition) All this talk about a guide to meteorites for newbies makes it sound like the perfect venue would be the Meteorite Wiki. www.meteoritewiki.com Seems pretty simple to me. Everyone that would like to know anything about meteorites could learn it there. A book, is so, well... Old school... ;) (just kidding) Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA P.S. I know I'll probably get some brash emails on that one... ;) Galactic Stone & Ironworks wrote: > Hi Mark and List, > > Such a book sounds like a great idea. A bunch of that info is located > in the online Meteorite Times archives. There are several old > articles by Jim Tobin that cover some of these lapidary type topics. > > But having all of those, and more like them, in one book would be nice. > > Best regards, > > MikeG > > On 11/15/09, Mark Bowling wrote: > >> Hi Dennis and List, >> >> I would like to check out that new book (published by the "gals"?). I'm >> sure I'll get the chance at this years show. >> >> The other books I am familiar with (except maybe the one Anne mentioned). >> But none of these focus on the lapidary side of meteorites, the practical >> steps involved. >> >> I hope I wasn't clear about that when I mentioned possible "filler" >> material >> for the book (like cataloging, classifications, etc.). Such material is >> probably not appropriate for an illustrated guidebook for cutting, >> polishing, protecting (etc., etc.) the various types of meteorites. But >> I >> was just trying to throw out additional ideas. >> >> Best regards, >> Mark >> >> --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Dennis Miller wrote: >> >> >>> From: Dennis Miller >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & >>> Competition) >>> To: impactika at aol.com, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 12:40 PM >>> >>> Como esta? Anne and List Richard's book >>> will always be a standard. >>> I recently bought Caroline Smith, Sara Russell and Gretchen >>> Benedix's >>> new book "Meteorites". These gals "Drs" put together a >>> great book for >>> those with the slightest interest in meteorites. It's basic >>> and >>> very easy to read. Loads of great pictures too. I also like >>> Kevin Kichinka's >>> "The Art of Collecting Meteorites". Now, if you >>> aren't a "Newbie" you >>> will love McSween's "Meteorites and Their Parent Planets". >>> I use my copy >>> to fill up the shelf! But, what a Great Hobby, no matter >>> what some say. >>> Have A Great Day! Sorry Anne but, Think >>> Snow!!! >>> Dennis >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------- >>> >>>> From: Impactika at aol.com >>>> Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:45:39 -0500 >>>> To: minador at yahoo.com; >>>> >>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was >>>> >>> Meteorites & Competition) >>> >>>> Hello Mark and List, >>>> >>>> There is already a book that answers a lot of your >>>> >>> questions, not all of >>> >>>> them, but quite a few. It is the Handbook of >>>> >>> Meteorites by O. Richard Norton. >>> >>>> I certainly would recommend getting it. >>>> >>>> Also I would like to add one thing to the discussion >>>> >>> about helping new >>> >>>> meteorite enthusiasts; It is not because you did not >>>> >>> see a response on the List >>> >>>> that no help of response was sent. It is often a whole >>>> >>> lot better to email >>> >>>> that person privately to ask for additional details to >>>> >>> narrow down the >>> >>>> problem, or simply to protect that person from some >>>> >>> public embarassement. I know I >>> >>>> probably write 50 private emails for every one posted >>>> >>> here. >>> >>>> And then we are not all always glued to our computer >>>> >>> (believe it or not!!), >>> >>>> personally I have a book (about meteorites of course) >>>> >>> to translate as >>> >>>> quickly as possible so it will be available in >>>> >>> Tucson. >>> >>>> And Norbert Classen and I have the dubious honor of >>>> >>> having to answer every >>> >>>> question that comes in on the IMCA questions email >>>> >>> address. Also time >>> >>>> consuming. >>>> >>>> And right now I have a whole lot of snow to shovel!!! >>>> Have a nice day. >>>> >>>> Anne M. Black >>>> _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) >>>> _IMPACTIKA at aol.com_ >>>> >>> (mailto:IMPACTIKA at aol.com) >>> >>>> Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. >>>> _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 11/15/2009 8:30:51 AM Mountain >>>> >>> Standard Time, >>> >>>> minador at yahoo.com >>>> >>> writes: >>> >>>> Dear List, >>>> >>>> I think Adam has some great points. I think people >>>> >>> forget how rare these >>> >>>> things are. Prices often don't reflect that. >>>> >>>> I think people are more likely to give advice when a >>>> >>> "newbie" asks >>> >>>> something like, I've ruined several slices trying to >>>> >>> do such & such, I've tried A >>> >>>> and B, what else should I do. it shows that they're >>>> >>> paying their dues, but >>> >>>> need a little advice which they can probably absorb >>>> >>> quickly, saving an >>> >>>> "expert's" time. The sad thing is that a few >>>> >>> slices/specimens have been ruined >>> >>>> (maybe from "cheap, common NWA" material, but very >>>> >>> rare, finite material >>> >>>> nonetheless). >>>> >>>> How do you balance the protection of trade secrets and >>>> >>> your business vs. >>> >>>> the ideal of preserving this wonderful material? I >>>> >>> suppose there are >>> >>>> techniques which are common in parallel fields like >>>> >>> lapidary, which one can assume >>> >>>> they'll figure it out the hard way (both hard on their >>>> >>> time/wallet but also >>> >>>> hard on meteorites). I would say one should be >>>> >>> somewhat eager to help in >>> >>>> that case, since keeping quiet won't deter them but >>>> >>> only make possible the >>> >>>> damage of more specimens. However, offering help takes >>>> >>> precious time, busy >>> >>>> people lack. >>>> >>>> What about the possibility of a guidebook highlighting >>>> >>> some of these >>> >>>> "common" things? The first person(s) with the ability >>>> >>> to write said tome could >>> >>>> profit from the book sales, and many novices would >>>> >>> benefit from the tips. >>> >>>> Sensitive trade secrets could be mentioned by name and >>>> >>> the disclaimer given >>> >>>> that you will have to experiment at the peril of your >>>> >>> collection and finances - >>> >>>> or maybe find a willing mentor. >>>> >>>> The book would have to be relatively comprehensive - >>>> >>> covering the common >>> >>>> things which can be found in a lapidary book, but from >>>> >>> a meteorite point of >>> >>>> view (there might be possibility of tips like "it's >>>> >>> wise to practice this >>> >>>> technique using sandstone(?) because it approximates >>>> >>> XYZ meteorites very well, >>> >>>> and you can rest assured that your learning curve >>>> >>> isn't busting the bank"). >>> >>>> And it would also cover the meteorites specific topics >>>> >>> like chemicals/oils >>> >>>> to avoid, etc. Maybe some explanations of the >>>> >>> different textures you will >>> >>>> encounter in meteorites. Maybe a section on thin >>>> >>> sections, epoxy plugs, and ? >>> >>>> There might be room for general things like an >>>> >>> explanation meteorite >>> >>>> classifications, collecting strategies, strategies for >>>> >>> documenting a collection of >>> >>>> specimens, a list of common vendors, etc. There are >>>> >>> lots of interesting, >>> >>>> useful things that could be added that I can't >>>> >>> imagine. Of course, you would >>> >>>> have to have environmental, health and safety concerns >>>> >>> highlighted and >>> >>>> repeated throughout the book! >>>> >>>> I know this may sound a little out in left field, but >>>> >>> it would help with >>> >>>> the overall conservation of specimens and/or reduce >>>> >>> poor, albeit, harmless >>> >>>> results (as well as be an opportunity to make some >>>> >>> money). Could it result in >>> >>>> increased completion? Probably so, but those rushing >>>> >>> head long into the >>> >>>> wilderness probably can't be stopped anyway. And those >>>> >>> who are inspired by the >>> >>>> book may take a stab at it, but realize it's >>>> >>> expensive, hard work and go >>> >>>> back to only buying/trading/collecting. This book may >>>> >>> exist, but I don't >>> >>>> think so. I can think of a few books which explain >>>> >>> etching and nickel testing, >>> >>>> but I can't think of anything which comprehensively >>>> >>> covers the preservation >>> >>>> and preparation of meteorite specimens. >>>> >>>> Personally, I will always choose to buy from a handful >>>> >>> of dealers held in >>> >>>> high regard, who have invaluable reputations to >>>> >>> protect (or middlemen I trust >>> >>>> as friends I can trust). And some field hunters I >>>> >>> know. I've decided to >>> >>>> avoid attractive specimens of questionable pedigree, >>>> >>> unless I'm willing to >>> >>>> make the often expensive choice to advertise them as >>>> >>> "believed to be XYZ >>> >>>> specimen". So this book would not cause the big >>>> >>> dealers to lose my (rare) >>> >>>> business. When a "newbie" asks a question, you can >>>> >>> point them to the "Bible". >>> >>>> So what do you guys think? Crazy? Brilliant? (Someone >>>> >>> with too much time >>> >>>> on his hands tonight?) Is this an issue that's already >>>> >>> on the IMCA "to-do" >>> >>>> list? Is this not commercially viable? >>>> >>>> (Cricket chirping????) ;-) >>>> >>>> Clear skies, >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. >>> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> > > > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From fujmon at mac.com Sun Nov 15 23:32:34 2009 From: fujmon at mac.com (Gary Fujihara) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 18:32:34 -1000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & Competition) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aloha Dennis, Anne, listees, Here are some titles of books on meteorites that I have in my library, use in public outreach, or for informal science education in schools. Some of them are well known, while others more obscure, but all most informative and worth the time to read. Some of them are listed here in no particular order: Cambridge Encyclopedia of Meteorites, O Richard Norton, 2002, Cambridge Press, 354 pg Good information that is well organized by the master Field Guide to Meteors and Meteorites, O Richard Norton, 2008 Springer, 288 pg Great reference from classifications to hunting to handlens/microscope viewing Rocks From Space, O Richard Norton, 1994, 1998 Mountain Press Pub, 444 pg One of my favorite books, one to which I often return Meteorites, Hutchison & Graham, 1993 Sterling Publishing, NY, 60 pg Good pictures and information, I donate copies to science classes I visit Falling Stars, Mike Reynolds, 2001 Stackpole Books, PA, 148 pg Like the subtitle says, its a Guide to Meteors and Meteorites Meteorites - Their Impact on Science and History, edited by Zanda & Rotaru, 1996 Cambridge University Press, 128 pg Great color pictures, very informative Meteorites, Alain Carion, self-published, 36 pg Short B/W printing with nice photos and good information Thunderstones and Shooting Stars, Robert T Dodd, 1986, Harvard Press, 196 pg Good pictures and information, some dated or obsolete Santa Lucia Meteorite Fall, McCartney Taylor, 2009 self published 62 pg Great story of meteorite hunting in Argentina Find a Falling Star, Harvey Nininger, 1972, Erikson, 254 pg Autobiography of America?s first meteorite hunter Meteorites from A to Z, Jenson, Jenson, Black, 2004 self published, 276 pg Great reference for falls and finds The Handbook of Colorado Meteorites, Matt Morgan, 2000 CO Geo Survey, 40 pg Compilation & pictures of the meteorites of Colorado Meteorites and Their Parent Planets, Harry McSween, 1999 Cambridge Press, 312 pg Good book on meteorites and where they come from The Meteorite & Tektite Collectors Handbook, Philip Bagnall, 1991 WIllman-Bell, 160 pg Somewhat dated, but good source of information Tektites - A Cosmic Enigma, Hal Provenmire, 2003 self published, 210 pg Comprehensive book on the different tektites, strewnfields and theories of origin Meteorites and the Origin of Planets, John Wood, 1968 McGraw-Hill, 118 pg A lot of valid information in this dated book Tucson Meteorites, Richard Willey, 1987 Smithsonian Press, 46 pg A history of the Tucson Ring meteorite The Port Orford, Oregon Meteorite Mystery, Roy S Clarke, 1993 Smithsonian Press, 42 pg Great story of an even greater hoax The Fallen Sky, Christopher Cokinos, 2009 Penguin Books, 518 pg Story weaves history, science and the author?s life in an engaging manner Meteorites - A Journey Through Time and Space, Bevan & DeLaeter, 2002, Univ So Wales Press, 216 pg Beautiful book, good information in an easy to read format Meteorites - Their Structure, Composition and Terrestrial Relations, Oliver Cummings Farrington, 1915 self published, 226 pg Obviously dated, but a good read of period meteoritics Meteorite Craters, Kathleen Mark, 1987, UA Press, 288 pg Good book on impact craters around the world Meteorite Hunter, Roy Gallant, 2002 McGraw-Hill, 232 pg Stories of Tunguska, Sikhote Alin, Chinga, Pallas, Tsarev and more The Mystery of the Tunguska Fireball, Surendra Verma, 2005 Icon Books, 278 pg Investigation of the 1908 fireball in Siberia The Day the Sky Split Apart, Roy Gallant, 1995 Simon & Schuster, 156 pg Good book for young adults on the Tunguska event T Rex and the Crater of Doom, Walter Alvarez, 1997 Princeton Univ Press, 186 pg Giant impact kills off dinosaurs 65 million years ago Man and Impact on the Americas, E P Grondine, 1998 self published, 466 pg The effects of asteroid and comet impacts on man throughout the ages gary PS. It snowed here in Hawai?i too Anne. Fortunately for us, only on the summits of Mauna Kea and Mauna Loa, so no shoveling for us except for the dedicated day crew workers of the observatories. On Nov 15, 2009, at 9:40 AM, Dennis Miller wrote: > > Como esta? Anne and List Richard's book will always be a standard. > I recently bought Caroline Smith, Sara Russell and Gretchen Benedix's > new book "Meteorites". These gals "Drs" put together a great book for > those with the slightest interest in meteorites. It's basic and > very easy to read. Loads of great pictures too. I also like Kevin Kichinka's > "The Art of Collecting Meteorites". Now, if you aren't a "Newbie" you > will love McSween's "Meteorites and Their Parent Planets". I use my copy > to fill up the shelf! But, what a Great Hobby, no matter what some say. > Have A Great Day! Sorry Anne but, Think Snow!!! > Dennis > > > ---------------------------------------- >> From: Impactika at aol.com >> Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:45:39 -0500 >> To: minador at yahoo.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & Competition) >> >> Hello Mark and List, >> >> There is already a book that answers a lot of your questions, not all of >> them, but quite a few. It is the Handbook of Meteorites by O. Richard Norton. >> I certainly would recommend getting it. >> >> Also I would like to add one thing to the discussion about helping new >> meteorite enthusiasts; It is not because you did not see a response on the List >> that no help of response was sent. It is often a whole lot better to email >> that person privately to ask for additional details to narrow down the >> problem, or simply to protect that person from some public embarassement. I know I >> probably write 50 private emails for every one posted here. >> >> And then we are not all always glued to our computer (believe it or not!!), >> personally I have a book (about meteorites of course) to translate as >> quickly as possible so it will be available in Tucson. >> >> And Norbert Classen and I have the dubious honor of having to answer every >> question that comes in on the IMCA questions email address. Also time >> consuming. >> >> And right now I have a whole lot of snow to shovel!!! >> Have a nice day. >> >> Anne M. Black >> _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) >> _IMPACTIKA at aol.com_ (mailto:IMPACTIKA at aol.com) >> Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. >> _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) >> >> >> >> In a message dated 11/15/2009 8:30:51 AM Mountain Standard Time, >> minador at yahoo.com writes: >> Dear List, >> >> I think Adam has some great points. I think people forget how rare these >> things are. Prices often don't reflect that. >> >> I think people are more likely to give advice when a "newbie" asks >> something like, I've ruined several slices trying to do such & such, I've tried A >> and B, what else should I do. it shows that they're paying their dues, but >> need a little advice which they can probably absorb quickly, saving an >> "expert's" time. The sad thing is that a few slices/specimens have been ruined >> (maybe from "cheap, common NWA" material, but very rare, finite material >> nonetheless). >> >> How do you balance the protection of trade secrets and your business vs. >> the ideal of preserving this wonderful material? I suppose there are >> techniques which are common in parallel fields like lapidary, which one can assume >> they'll figure it out the hard way (both hard on their time/wallet but also >> hard on meteorites). I would say one should be somewhat eager to help in >> that case, since keeping quiet won't deter them but only make possible the >> damage of more specimens. However, offering help takes precious time, busy >> people lack. >> >> What about the possibility of a guidebook highlighting some of these >> "common" things? The first person(s) with the ability to write said tome could >> profit from the book sales, and many novices would benefit from the tips. >> Sensitive trade secrets could be mentioned by name and the disclaimer given >> that you will have to experiment at the peril of your collection and finances - >> or maybe find a willing mentor. >> >> The book would have to be relatively comprehensive - covering the common >> things which can be found in a lapidary book, but from a meteorite point of >> view (there might be possibility of tips like "it's wise to practice this >> technique using sandstone(?) because it approximates XYZ meteorites very well, >> and you can rest assured that your learning curve isn't busting the bank"). >> And it would also cover the meteorites specific topics like chemicals/oils >> to avoid, etc. Maybe some explanations of the different textures you will >> encounter in meteorites. Maybe a section on thin sections, epoxy plugs, and ? >> >> There might be room for general things like an explanation meteorite >> classifications, collecting strategies, strategies for documenting a collection of >> specimens, a list of common vendors, etc. There are lots of interesting, >> useful things that could be added that I can't imagine. Of course, you would >> have to have environmental, health and safety concerns highlighted and >> repeated throughout the book! >> >> I know this may sound a little out in left field, but it would help with >> the overall conservation of specimens and/or reduce poor, albeit, harmless >> results (as well as be an opportunity to make some money). Could it result in >> increased completion? Probably so, but those rushing head long into the >> wilderness probably can't be stopped anyway. And those who are inspired by the >> book may take a stab at it, but realize it's expensive, hard work and go >> back to only buying/trading/collecting. This book may exist, but I don't >> think so. I can think of a few books which explain etching and nickel testing, >> but I can't think of anything which comprehensively covers the preservation >> and preparation of meteorite specimens. >> >> Personally, I will always choose to buy from a handful of dealers held in >> high regard, who have invaluable reputations to protect (or middlemen I trust >> as friends I can trust). And some field hunters I know. I've decided to >> avoid attractive specimens of questionable pedigree, unless I'm willing to >> make the often expensive choice to advertise them as "believed to be XYZ >> specimen". So this book would not cause the big dealers to lose my (rare) >> business. When a "newbie" asks a question, you can point them to the "Bible". >> >> So what do you guys think? Crazy? Brilliant? (Someone with too much time >> on his hands tonight?) Is this an issue that's already on the IMCA "to-do" >> list? Is this not commercially viable? >> >> (Cricket chirping??) ;-) >> >> Clear skies, >> Mark >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Gary Fujihara AstroDay Institute 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720 (808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com http://astroday.net From larrytwinkmonrad at comcast.net Mon Nov 16 00:14:05 2009 From: larrytwinkmonrad at comcast.net (Larry & Twink Monrad) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 22:14:05 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (wasMeteorites & Competition) References: Message-ID: and I like Kevin Kichinka's The Art of Collecting Meteorites too. Besides other things, it has a great time-line chart of historical meteorite events and happenings. Twink Monrad From info at meteorites.com.au Mon Nov 16 02:49:34 2009 From: info at meteorites.com.au (Jeff) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:49:34 +1100 Subject: [meteorite-list] (AD) 2 meteorites forsale In-Reply-To: <751333.1543.qm@web57808.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <751333.1543.qm@web57808.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <58B582601E844B409751099A27D029C7@JeffPC> Free shipping Solar System wide? That's a pretty good deal! Are you sure? Will you ship them to Uranus? Cheers, Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve arnold" To: Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 1:19 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] (AD) 2 meteorites forsale Hi list.Just another quick blurb here.I have 2 meteorites forsale.One of them is the JULY 3RD, 2009 SPACE ROCKS OF THE DAY.It is a 78.2 gram brecciated unclassified stone endcut.It originally came from the meteorites usa meteorite collection.It is highly brecciated and is a beauty. $350 takes it home.I also have a 240 gram IMPACT MELT BRECCIA unclassified stone endcut originally from the dean bessy meteorite collection.$300 will take it home.Free shipping solar system wide.Offlist please and pics upon request or go to space rocks of the for july to see. Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 16 03:11:49 2009 From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com (Melanie Matthews) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 00:11:49 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Switching emails Message-ID: Hi, Because of that annoying issue - relating to hotmail,, with my messages on the list... I am subsribing under a yahoo based account and unsubscribe from the hotmail account.. This for example: [From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com To: rlenssen at planet.nl; azizhabibi at yahoo.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:46:48 -0800 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have fallen in the NWA area this year! <990ED361D20F4CE58358E25F62E8D471 at EIGENAARNJEQJY> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Very fresh=2C great stuff!=20] So far I haven't seen anyone having this problem with yahoo mail... My new email: miss_meteorite at yahoo.ca Yahoo mail also now offers unlimited space. ----------- Melanie IMCA: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get! _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691815 From countdeiro at earthlink.net Mon Nov 16 04:01:09 2009 From: countdeiro at earthlink.net (countdeiro at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 04:01:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Guide to Message-ID: <17586260.1258362069498.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Excellent post, Gary I copied the selections and found I have many, but there were some that I would like to have in hand . I do agree however that, much to the distate of many "old school purists", the days of the book are numbered as far as the publication of new materialis concerned. When I drive by the expensive to construct and maintain public libraries in Las Vegas...and were not talking about great university, or national, repositories here...I wonder if my tax dollars couldn't be spent more effectively. Good hunting, Guido -----Original Message----- >From: Gary Fujihara >Sent: Nov 15, 2009 11:32 PM >To: Dennis Miller >Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, impactika at aol.com >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & Competition) > >Aloha Dennis, Anne, listees, > >Here are some titles of books on meteorites that I have in my library, use in public outreach, or for informal science education in schools. Some of them are well known, while others more obscure, but all most informative and worth the time to read. Some of them are listed here in no particular order: > >Cambridge Encyclopedia of Meteorites, O Richard Norton, 2002, Cambridge Press, 354 pg > Good information that is well organized by the master > >Field Guide to Meteors and Meteorites, O Richard Norton, 2008 Springer, 288 pg > Great reference from classifications to hunting to handlens/microscope viewing > >Rocks From Space, O Richard Norton, 1994, 1998 Mountain Press Pub, 444 pg > One of my favorite books, one to which I often return > >Meteorites, Hutchison & Graham, 1993 Sterling Publishing, NY, 60 pg > Good pictures and information, I donate copies to science classes I visit > >Falling Stars, Mike Reynolds, 2001 Stackpole Books, PA, 148 pg > Like the subtitle says, its a Guide to Meteors and Meteorites > >Meteorites - Their Impact on Science and History, edited by Zanda & Rotaru, 1996 Cambridge University Press, 128 pg > Great color pictures, very informative > >Meteorites, Alain Carion, self-published, 36 pg > Short B/W printing with nice photos and good information > >Thunderstones and Shooting Stars, Robert T Dodd, 1986, Harvard Press, 196 pg > Good pictures and information, some dated or obsolete > >Santa Lucia Meteorite Fall, McCartney Taylor, 2009 self published 62 pg > Great story of meteorite hunting in Argentina > >Find a Falling Star, Harvey Nininger, 1972, Erikson, 254 pg > Autobiography of America?s first meteorite hunter > >Meteorites from A to Z, Jenson, Jenson, Black, 2004 self published, 276 pg > Great reference for falls and finds > >The Handbook of Colorado Meteorites, Matt Morgan, 2000 CO Geo Survey, 40 pg > Compilation & pictures of the meteorites of Colorado > >Meteorites and Their Parent Planets, Harry McSween, 1999 Cambridge Press, 312 pg > Good book on meteorites and where they come from > >The Meteorite & Tektite Collectors Handbook, Philip Bagnall, 1991 WIllman-Bell, 160 pg > Somewhat dated, but good source of information > >Tektites - A Cosmic Enigma, Hal Provenmire, 2003 self published, 210 pg > Comprehensive book on the different tektites, strewnfields and theories of origin > >Meteorites and the Origin of Planets, John Wood, 1968 McGraw-Hill, 118 pg > A lot of valid information in this dated book > >Tucson Meteorites, Richard Willey, 1987 Smithsonian Press, 46 pg > A history of the Tucson Ring meteorite > >The Port Orford, Oregon Meteorite Mystery, Roy S Clarke, 1993 Smithsonian Press, 42 pg > Great story of an even greater hoax > >The Fallen Sky, Christopher Cokinos, 2009 Penguin Books, 518 pg > Story weaves history, science and the author?s life in an engaging manner > >Meteorites - A Journey Through Time and Space, Bevan & DeLaeter, 2002, Univ So Wales Press, 216 pg > Beautiful book, good information in an easy to read format > >Meteorites - Their Structure, Composition and Terrestrial Relations, Oliver Cummings Farrington, 1915 self published, 226 pg > Obviously dated, but a good read of period meteoritics > >Meteorite Craters, Kathleen Mark, 1987, UA Press, 288 pg > Good book on impact craters around the world > >Meteorite Hunter, Roy Gallant, 2002 McGraw-Hill, 232 pg > Stories of Tunguska, Sikhote Alin, Chinga, Pallas, Tsarev and more > >The Mystery of the Tunguska Fireball, Surendra Verma, 2005 Icon Books, 278 pg > Investigation of the 1908 fireball in Siberia > >The Day the Sky Split Apart, Roy Gallant, 1995 Simon & Schuster, 156 pg > Good book for young adults on the Tunguska event > >T Rex and the Crater of Doom, Walter Alvarez, 1997 Princeton Univ Press, 186 pg > Giant impact kills off dinosaurs 65 million years ago > >Man and Impact on the Americas, E P Grondine, 1998 self published, 466 pg > The effects of asteroid and comet impacts on man throughout the ages > >gary > >PS. It snowed here in Hawai?i too Anne. Fortunately for us, only on the summits of Mauna Kea and Mauna Loa, so no shoveling for us except for the dedicated day crew workers of the observatories. > >On Nov 15, 2009, at 9:40 AM, Dennis Miller wrote: > >> >> Como esta? Anne and List Richard's book will always be a standard. >> I recently bought Caroline Smith, Sara Russell and Gretchen Benedix's >> new book "Meteorites". These gals "Drs" put together a great book for >> those with the slightest interest in meteorites. It's basic and >> very easy to read. Loads of great pictures too. I also like Kevin Kichinka's >> "The Art of Collecting Meteorites". Now, if you aren't a "Newbie" you >> will love McSween's "Meteorites and Their Parent Planets". I use my copy >> to fill up the shelf! But, what a Great Hobby, no matter what some say. >> Have A Great Day! Sorry Anne but, Think Snow!!! >> Dennis >> >> >> ---------------------------------------- >>> From: Impactika at aol.com >>> Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:45:39 -0500 >>> To: minador at yahoo.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & Competition) >>> >>> Hello Mark and List, >>> >>> There is already a book that answers a lot of your questions, not all of >>> them, but quite a few. It is the Handbook of Meteorites by O. Richard Norton. >>> I certainly would recommend getting it. >>> >>> Also I would like to add one thing to the discussion about helping new >>> meteorite enthusiasts; It is not because you did not see a response on the List >>> that no help of response was sent. It is often a whole lot better to email >>> that person privately to ask for additional details to narrow down the >>> problem, or simply to protect that person from some public embarassement. I know I >>> probably write 50 private emails for every one posted here. >>> >>> And then we are not all always glued to our computer (believe it or not!!), >>> personally I have a book (about meteorites of course) to translate as >>> quickly as possible so it will be available in Tucson. >>> >>> And Norbert Classen and I have the dubious honor of having to answer every >>> question that comes in on the IMCA questions email address. Also time >>> consuming. >>> >>> And right now I have a whole lot of snow to shovel!!! >>> Have a nice day. >>> >>> Anne M. Black >>> _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) >>> _IMPACTIKA at aol.com_ (mailto:IMPACTIKA at aol.com) >>> Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. >>> _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) >>> >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 11/15/2009 8:30:51 AM Mountain Standard Time, >>> minador at yahoo.com writes: >>> Dear List, >>> >>> I think Adam has some great points. I think people forget how rare these >>> things are. Prices often don't reflect that. >>> >>> I think people are more likely to give advice when a "newbie" asks >>> something like, I've ruined several slices trying to do such & such, I've tried A >>> and B, what else should I do. it shows that they're paying their dues, but >>> need a little advice which they can probably absorb quickly, saving an >>> "expert's" time. The sad thing is that a few slices/specimens have been ruined >>> (maybe from "cheap, common NWA" material, but very rare, finite material >>> nonetheless). >>> >>> How do you balance the protection of trade secrets and your business vs. >>> the ideal of preserving this wonderful material? I suppose there are >>> techniques which are common in parallel fields like lapidary, which one can assume >>> they'll figure it out the hard way (both hard on their time/wallet but also >>> hard on meteorites). I would say one should be somewhat eager to help in >>> that case, since keeping quiet won't deter them but only make possible the >>> damage of more specimens. However, offering help takes precious time, busy >>> people lack. >>> >>> What about the possibility of a guidebook highlighting some of these >>> "common" things? The first person(s) with the ability to write said tome could >>> profit from the book sales, and many novices would benefit from the tips. >>> Sensitive trade secrets could be mentioned by name and the disclaimer given >>> that you will have to experiment at the peril of your collection and finances - >>> or maybe find a willing mentor. >>> >>> The book would have to be relatively comprehensive - covering the common >>> things which can be found in a lapidary book, but from a meteorite point of >>> view (there might be possibility of tips like "it's wise to practice this >>> technique using sandstone(?) because it approximates XYZ meteorites very well, >>> and you can rest assured that your learning curve isn't busting the bank"). >>> And it would also cover the meteorites specific topics like chemicals/oils >>> to avoid, etc. Maybe some explanations of the different textures you will >>> encounter in meteorites. Maybe a section on thin sections, epoxy plugs, and ? >>> >>> There might be room for general things like an explanation meteorite >>> classifications, collecting strategies, strategies for documenting a collection of >>> specimens, a list of common vendors, etc. There are lots of interesting, >>> useful things that could be added that I can't imagine. Of course, you would >>> have to have environmental, health and safety concerns highlighted and >>> repeated throughout the book! >>> >>> I know this may sound a little out in left field, but it would help with >>> the overall conservation of specimens and/or reduce poor, albeit, harmless >>> results (as well as be an opportunity to make some money). Could it result in >>> increased completion? Probably so, but those rushing head long into the >>> wilderness probably can't be stopped anyway. And those who are inspired by the >>> book may take a stab at it, but realize it's expensive, hard work and go >>> back to only buying/trading/collecting. This book may exist, but I don't >>> think so. I can think of a few books which explain etching and nickel testing, >>> but I can't think of anything which comprehensively covers the preservation >>> and preparation of meteorite specimens. >>> >>> Personally, I will always choose to buy from a handful of dealers held in >>> high regard, who have invaluable reputations to protect (or middlemen I trust >>> as friends I can trust). And some field hunters I know. I've decided to >>> avoid attractive specimens of questionable pedigree, unless I'm willing to >>> make the often expensive choice to advertise them as "believed to be XYZ >>> specimen". So this book would not cause the big dealers to lose my (rare) >>> business. When a "newbie" asks a question, you can point them to the "Bible". >>> >>> So what do you guys think? Crazy? Brilliant? (Someone with too much time >>> on his hands tonight?) Is this an issue that's already on the IMCA "to-do" >>> list? Is this not commercially viable? >>> >>> (Cricket chirping??) ;-) >>> >>> Clear skies, >>> Mark >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. >> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >Gary Fujihara >AstroDay Institute >105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720 >(808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com >http://astroday.net > >______________________________________________ >http://www.meteoritecentral.com >Meteorite-list mailing list >Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From minador at yahoo.com Mon Nov 16 07:49:48 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 04:49:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorites & Competition) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <365322.14003.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi List, I think MikeG understands the concept, and if Jim Tobin already has material covering the subject, it's probably not worth the time putting it in book form. But none of the books below touch on the subject I'm touching on. The newest Norton book does give a great explanation for nickel testing, determining bulk density and etching meteorites. The idea isn't about meteorite hunting/people, the origin of meteorites in space, a catalog of meteorite types (or the history of the XYZ fall), but a detailed, step-by-step guide for cutting, polishing, treating meteorites, so as to ensure that people can reduce waste. It wouldn't be a heavy, big book. I have such a guidebook on casting, which is wire bound, and is smaller, much lighter than 99% of my meteorite books. Eric's suggestion made me laugh! I think he's right, maybe it would be good to just put the existing material into Meteorite Wiki! Anyways, what touched off the discussion was a question about exchanging money and stones with people in Morocco, and wasn't a question about meteorite prep. I just thought that I've seen many "newbies" have a lot of questions like that. And someone attacked newbies for asking questions on cutting, etching, etc. And when Adam Hupe reminded us how precious the material really is, it made me wonder just how much material has been damaged by novices experimenting with lapidary equipment. I've seen people soak stones in acid to expose the metal (terrible outcome...). Anyways, thanks for the feedback everyone. Happy hunting/collecting (and selling). And keep the thought provoking questions coming you newbies! & have a great day! Mark --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Gary Fujihara wrote: > Here are some titles of books on meteorites that I have in > my library, use in public outreach, or for informal science > education in schools.? Some of them are well known, > while others more obscure, but all most informative and > worth the time to read.???Some of them are > listed here in no particular order: > > Cambridge Encyclopedia of Meteorites, O Richard Norton, > 2002, Cambridge Press, 354 pg > ??? Good information that is well organized > by the master > > Field Guide to Meteors and Meteorites, O Richard Norton, > 2008 Springer, 288 pg > ? ??? Great reference from > classifications to hunting to handlens/microscope viewing > > Rocks From Space, O Richard Norton, 1994, 1998 Mountain > Press Pub, 444 pg > ??? One of my favorite books, one to which I > often return > > Meteorites, Hutchison & Graham, 1993 Sterling > Publishing, NY, 60 pg > ??? Good pictures and information, I donate > copies to science classes I visit > > Falling Stars, Mike Reynolds, 2001 Stackpole Books, PA, 148 > pg > ??? Like the subtitle says, its a Guide to > Meteors and Meteorites > > Meteorites - Their Impact on Science and History, edited by > Zanda & Rotaru, 1996 Cambridge University Press, 128 pg > ??? Great color pictures, very informative > > Meteorites, Alain Carion, self-published, 36 pg > ??? Short B/W printing with nice photos and > good information > > Thunderstones and Shooting Stars, Robert T Dodd, 1986, > Harvard Press, 196 pg > ??? Good pictures and information, some > dated or obsolete > > Santa Lucia Meteorite Fall, McCartney Taylor, 2009 self > published 62 pg > ??? Great story of meteorite hunting in > Argentina > > Find a Falling Star, Harvey Nininger, 1972, Erikson, 254 > pg > ??? Autobiography of America?s first > meteorite hunter > > Meteorites from A to Z, Jenson, Jenson, Black, 2004 self > published, 276 pg > ??? Great reference for falls and finds > > The Handbook of Colorado Meteorites, Matt Morgan, 2000 CO > Geo Survey, 40 pg > ??? Compilation & pictures of the > meteorites of Colorado > > Meteorites and Their Parent Planets, Harry McSween, 1999 > Cambridge Press, 312 pg > ??? Good book on meteorites and where they > come from > > The Meteorite & Tektite Collectors Handbook, Philip > Bagnall, 1991 WIllman-Bell, 160 pg > ??? Somewhat dated, but good source of > information > > Tektites - A Cosmic Enigma, Hal Provenmire, 2003 self > published, 210 pg > ??? Comprehensive book on the different > tektites, strewnfields and theories of origin > > Meteorites and the Origin of Planets, John Wood, 1968 > McGraw-Hill, 118 pg > ??? A lot of valid information in this dated > book > > Tucson Meteorites, Richard Willey, 1987 Smithsonian Press, > 46 pg > ??? A history of the Tucson Ring meteorite > > The Port Orford, Oregon Meteorite Mystery, Roy S Clarke, > 1993 Smithsonian Press, 42 pg > ??? Great story of an even greater hoax > > The Fallen Sky, Christopher Cokinos, 2009 Penguin Books, > 518 pg > ??? Story weaves history, science and the > author?s life in an engaging manner > > Meteorites - A Journey Through Time and Space, Bevan & > DeLaeter, 2002, Univ So Wales Press, 216 pg > ??? Beautiful book, good information in an > easy to read format > > Meteorites - Their Structure, Composition and Terrestrial > Relations, Oliver Cummings Farrington,? 1915 self > published, 226 pg > ??? Obviously dated, but a good read of > period meteoritics > > Meteorite Craters, Kathleen Mark, 1987, UA Press, 288 pg > ??? Good book on impact craters around the > world > > Meteorite Hunter, Roy Gallant, 2002 McGraw-Hill, 232 pg > ?????? Stories of Tunguska, > Sikhote Alin, Chinga, Pallas, Tsarev and more > > The Mystery of the Tunguska Fireball, Surendra Verma, 2005 > Icon Books, 278 pg > ??? Investigation of the 1908 fireball in > Siberia > > The Day the Sky Split Apart, Roy Gallant, 1995 Simon & > Schuster, 156 pg > ??? Good book for young adults on the > Tunguska event > > T Rex and the Crater of Doom, Walter Alvarez, 1997 > Princeton Univ Press, 186 pg > ??? Giant impact kills off dinosaurs 65 > million years ago > > Man and Impact on the Americas, E P Grondine, 1998 self > published, 466 pg > ??? The effects of asteroid and comet > impacts on man throughout the ages > > gary From minador at yahoo.com Mon Nov 16 07:52:25 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 04:52:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" link In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <894975.83511.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> P.S. Here's an example: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0871922401/ref=dp_otherviews_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&img=4 (good luck with the snow by the way!) From stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 16 08:31:14 2009 From: stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com (steve arnold) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 05:31:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] newbies coming out of the woodwork Message-ID: <347339.11061.qm@web57803.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi list and all.I have noticed that when I offer freebies to the list,alot of people whom I never see post anything or very little to the list come out in droves.But only appearing when the freebie is out there.But that is fine by me.They'll come out in thier own time and then will make the list that much more enjoyable.without newbies,like any other group,would only make the list go away.I used to belong to a social club for tall people.That is how I met my wife.But with only 40 and 50 and 60 somethings hanging onto the club,no one in thier 20's or?30's would want to join.So without newbies the club has all but died.? NEWBIES ARE WANTED!!!!!!! ?Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! From almitt at kconline.com Mon Nov 16 09:03:32 2009 From: almitt at kconline.com (al mitt) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:03:32 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (was Meteorite & Competition) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Gary and all, If listee's read about the Port Orford Meteorite Mystery by Roy S. Clarke and Plokin they should also read the article in Meteorite Magazine, May 2007 by Doug Borgard. Borgard covers a lot of items that I have maintained about the Port Orford Meteorite over the years and shows many of the flaws that are in the Port Orford Meteorite Mystery. I didn't necessarly agree as much with the second part as much as I did with the first part but it is another view on the Port Orford Meteorite which I view as real. Here are my views expressed back in 2007 about his article: In the May issue of Meteorite Magazine, there is an excellent article about the Port Orford Meteorite by Doug Borgard. Doug relates many of the issues I have brought up over the last several years in regards to the official Publication that it was a hoax. While it may have been a hoax, I think that Doug's article has exonerated John Evans, who I feel did his part and was an innocent party to this allege hoax. There is a second part that will be published in the August issue of Meteorite. Don't know what Doug will say but if he has found some of the same material that a friend of mine who research this very thoroughly, there may be reference to Jackson who in my opinion had been unfairly treated at that time. He was undermined by those he hired and lost a job from the government. It is my believe that he had reasons to plant the imilac in place of the newly found Port Orford pieces. Perhaps he wanted to search, recover, or find this for himself and sell it to the government to make them pay. There is certainly a motive here. There are other scenarios also. In this article I believe that the real truth of the matter is brilliantly argued, mistakes by writers of the "John Evans and the Port Orford Meteorite Hoax" are cut to the bone and that a better explanation is given. One of the mistakes the investigator made was being on the wrong mountain. No wonder they didn't find anything. While I maintain this still could be a hoax, I in no way believe that John Evans had anything to do with that and better research was needed to explain things than was done. I look forward to the next installment of Doug's article. --AL Mitterling ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Fujihara" To: "Dennis Miller" Cc: ; Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to "Newbies" (wasMeteorites & Competition) > Aloha Dennis, Anne, listees, The Port Orford, Oregon Meteorite Mystery, Roy S Clarke, 1993 Smithsonian Press, 42 pg Great story of an even greater hoax From almitt at kconline.com Mon Nov 16 09:10:37 2009 From: almitt at kconline.com (al mitt) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:10:37 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] newbies coming out of the woodwork In-Reply-To: <347339.11061.qm@web57803.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <347339.11061.qm@web57803.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42FB45182FE1497C906F24F09E6C895D@StarmanPC> Hi Steve and all, I think I would like to point out that people and newbies should be careful when accepting items from you. You have been buying some of your items from someone who was misrepresenting meteorites and was pointed out on this list. It would be nice of you if you were to point out to anyone accepting these free meteorites that they came from this person of very questionable reputation. My suggestion is not to buy from him so we don't get material that is of questionable pedigree into our collections. --AL Mitterling ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve arnold" To: Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 8:31 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] newbies coming out of the woodwork Hi list and all. Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! From minador at yahoo.com Mon Nov 16 10:51:48 2009 From: minador at yahoo.com (Mark Bowling) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 07:51:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Switching emails In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <829444.61322.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Maybe it's something new because I've only noticed it the past 2 months or so... Mark"iso-8859-1"B. Vail,MIME-Version: 1.0, AZ=20] --- On Mon, 11/16/09, Melanie Matthews wrote: > From: Melanie Matthews > Subject: [meteorite-list] Switching emails > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 1:11 AM > > Hi, > Because of that annoying issue - relating to hotmail,, with > my messages on the list... I am subsribing under a yahoo > based account and unsubscribe from the hotmail account.. > This for example: > [From: spacewoman2775 at hotmail.com > To: rlenssen at planet.nl; > azizhabibi at yahoo.com; > meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:46:48 -0800 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites > know to have fallen in the NWA area this year! > > > <990ED361D20F4CE58358E25F62E8D471 at EIGENAARNJEQJY> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Very fresh=2C great stuff!=20] > > So far I haven't seen anyone having this problem with yahoo > mail... My new email: miss_meteorite at yahoo.ca > Yahoo mail also now offers unlimited space. > > ----------- > Melanie > IMCA: 2975 > eBay: metmel2775 > Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09 > > Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you > never know what you're gonna get! > > > ??? > ???????? > ?????? ??? > ? > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do > online. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691815 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From maurizio.eltri at libero.it Mon Nov 16 10:49:05 2009 From: maurizio.eltri at libero.it (Maurizio Eltri) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:49:05 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Info on Sikhote Alin's shrapnel Message-ID: <4AF8766600EFCB60@cp-out8.libero.it> (added by postmaster@cp-out8.libero.it) Hi all, I ask to those who are more experienced than me,clarification about Sikhote Alin's splinters formation. In my opinion there can be two ways to justify the origin of the fragments found in the vicinity of the largest craters, 1) The kinetic energy released at the contact surfaces of meteorite/ground was enough to melt the frontlayer of the meteorite with the subsequent violent expulsion of fragments, fused or partially fused. 2) Having the meteorites reached the retardation point at only 5 km of altitude, they would arrived at an impact with their hot surfaces, this would facilitate the expulsion of splinters. I apologize for my bad English. Maurizio Eltri From drtanuki at yahoo.com Mon Nov 16 11:13:44 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:13:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] newbies coming out of the woodwork In-Reply-To: <347339.11061.qm@web57803.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <395868.39991.qm@web53108.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Steve and All, The term(s) that you seem to be missing are chum and bait ): "2. chum unwanted fish parts: guts fins and heads" http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chum bait: "26. bait What you use to catch teh (sic) little fishies (sic) in oceans and rivers... (I had to state the obvious) What type of bait do you use?" http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bait&page=4 and; feeding fish (sharks, carp, suckers, etc.) are in schools (shoals, drafts, runs, hauls, or catches) and not droves. Droves might be used for: 1 : a group of animals driven or moving in a body http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/droves or 2 : a large number : crowd ?usually used in plural especially with in . The person throwing the bait (fish guts, fins, and heads; in your case orphaned or mongrelled meteorites) is caller a chummer or baiter. And the act of throwing the chum is called chumming or baiting. So Steve, keep on chumming / baiting so the chiming doesn`t stop. Have a great day Steve and All. Jingle Bells, The Bright Star, and the Salvation Army Band! Happy Holidays! Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo "out of the Woodwork"... just guessing that that would indicate insects or some club at school --- On Mon, 11/16/09, steve arnold wrote: > From: steve arnold > Subject: [meteorite-list] newbies coming out of the woodwork > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 10:31 PM > Hi list and all.I have noticed that > when I offer freebies to the list,alot of people whom I > never see post anything or very little to the list come out > in droves.But only appearing when the freebie is out > there.But that is fine by me.They'll come out in thier own > time and then will make the list that much more > enjoyable.without newbies,like any other group,would only > make the list go away.I used to belong to a social club for > tall people.That is how I met my wife.But with only 40 and > 50 and 60 somethings hanging onto the club,no one in thier > 20's or?30's would want to join.So without newbies the club > has all but died.? NEWBIES ARE WANTED!!!!!!! > ?Steve R. Arnold, Chicago!! > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteoritemike at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 11:17:44 2009 From: meteoritemike at gmail.com (Galactic Stone & Ironworks) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:17:44 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - Meteorite Labels, Limited Edition Trinitite Displays, Bassi & Chergach whole stones, more! Message-ID: Greetings List! I have some new offerings this week - All Met-List members (you!) get a 25% discount on your entire purchase. Use the coupon code "metlist" at checkout to receive the discount. 1) Lot of 20 meteorite labels from Meteoritelabels.com. These are spares I have laying around or labels from specimens that I no longer have. http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Lot-of-20-Meteorite-Labels--from-Meteoritelabelscom_1122107.html 2) Limited Edition Trinitite displays using "Pop-Sci" vintage art themes. These are colorful and interesting ways to display your trinitite. Each one is hand numbered and comes from the art team at Peaculiar Notions. There are 2 different display themes available - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/New-Limited-Edition-Trinitite-Display--Vintage-Pop-Sci_1107354.html http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/New-Limited-Edition-Trinitite-Display--Vintage-Pop-Sci-Art_1107351.html The following premium-quality specimens are still available : (these come with a Riker box, label, and original dealer specimen card) Oriented Chergach whole stone - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Chergach-Meteorite--Oriented-Whole-Stone-w-Rollover-Lip_1065557.html Bassikounou whole stone - http://www.galactic-stone.com/product/126516/Bassikounou-Witnessed-Fall--100-Crusted-Whole-Stone_1065553.html Thanks for looking and clear skies! MikeG -- ......................................................... Michael Gilmer (Florida, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com FaceBook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone MySpace - http://www.myspace.com/fine_meteorites_4_sale Twitter - Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone eBay - http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/maypickle .......................................................... From bobadebt at ec.rr.com Mon Nov 16 12:12:32 2009 From: bobadebt at ec.rr.com (David Deyarmin) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:12:32 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Reed Family Project Message-ID: <9B8570776A6B461085C86A288B4F5C29@owner118c1707d> I just received the following info Checks can be made out to "REED FAMILY FUND" and mailed to me at David Deyarmin 106 Cherry Branch Drive Havelock NC, 28532 If you send a check please let me know via email so I know to expect it. Thanks From rocksfromspace at yahoo.com Mon Nov 16 12:14:58 2009 From: rocksfromspace at yahoo.com (Michael Johnson) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:14:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 16, 2009 Message-ID: <495467.26382.qm@web113016.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_16_2009.html From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Mon Nov 16 12:17:31 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:17:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rosetta Bound for Outer Solar System After Final Earth Swingby Message-ID: <200911161717.nAGHHVle026662@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMZC04VU1G_index_0.html Rosetta bound for outer Solar System after final Earth swingby European Space Agency 13 November 2009 This morning, mission controllers confirmed that ESA's comet chaser Rosetta had swung by Earth at 8:45 CET as planned, skimming past our planet to pick up a gravitational boost for an epic journey to rendezvous with comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko in 2014. Rosetta passed over the ocean, just South of the Indonesian island of Java, at exactly 08:45:40 CET, at a speed of 13.34 km/s with respect to Earth at an altitude of 2481 km. The swingby was pre-planned and fully automated, and the spacecraft was in direct communication with Earth at the time, via the ESA New Norcia Station. The successful swingby was confirmed at 09:05 CET when mission controllers re-established contact with Rosetta via ESA's Maspalomas station in Spain. Although a detailed analyses is in progress, spacecraft operators have confirmed that the swingby provided a boost of 3.6 km/s. Europe's comet chaser has now flown a little over 4500 million km of its 7100 million km journey to its destination comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko. This was Rosetta's fourth planetary swingby and the third and final swingby of Earth. [Image] Image of Earth beamed back by Rosetta last night Science close to Earth Some of Rosetta's instruments have been on since early November, performing imaging, magnetospheric, and atmospheric observations, as well as looking for water on the Moon. The first round of images and data recorded just before and during the swingby will be downloaded later today. Rosetta is now departing Earth to meet asteroid (21) Lutetia in July 2010. It has gained sufficient orbital energy to achieve its final goal: a rendezvous with comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko in 2014. The spacecraft is scheduled to enter deep-space hibernation by mid 2011 for the coldest leg of her journey to receive a wake up call only in spring 2014. For additional details on today's swingby access the Rosetta Blog http://www.esa.int/blog For more information: Andrea Accomazzo, ESA Rosetta Spacecraft Operations Manager Email: Andrea.Accomazzo @ esa.int Gerhard Schwehm, ESA Rosetta Mission Manager Email: Gerhard.Schwehm @ esa.int Rita Schulz, ESA Rosetta Project Scientist Email: Rita.Schulz @ esa.int From meteorites at online.nl Mon Nov 16 12:22:28 2009 From: meteorites at online.nl (Jan Bartels) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:22:28 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] [AD] Tunguska Wood slice, Wabar, Zagami and more.... Message-ID: <8538A510F76341AC8AD15BCBABCACBD1@laptop> Listoids, Offers welcome on a stunning Tunguska wood slice (Bolongna expedition) with the 1908 ring clearly visible. Wabar Iron part slice with one crusted edge. 13,6 grams. Zagami part slice 5,22 grams!! Still have a 495 grams etched slice of Cape York. Henbury etched full slice 556 grams. 121 grams M'bale complete individual. Pictures on request off list please. Make me an offer on the ones above (no trades). All will be going to Ebay tomorrow so here's your first choice if you want something added here. Greets, Jan IMCA 9833 From majbaermann at web.de Mon Nov 16 13:03:41 2009 From: majbaermann at web.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Matthias_B=E4rmann?=) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:03:41 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 16, 2009 References: <495467.26382.qm@web113016.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8267DD6829AC49648740F4A92DBC5A69@thinkcentre> Wonderful photos, Dave, the eyes compete with the meteorites. Gosh, if I try to imagine me back in school, the door opens and Mr. Gheesling, entering the desk and chasing away the Latin-teacher, begins telling stories about heavenly stones and, even more, showing some of them and, even much more, allows to hold them in my very own hands - I'd have got mad immediately. So it took me several years more to get mad :-( Well, but at least I succeeded and got :-) Best regards, Matthias B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Johnson" To: Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 6:14 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 16,2009 > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_16_2009.html > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 16 13:05:34 2009 From: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com (Carl 's) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:05:34 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day Message-ID: Wow, Dave, What a crowd! Wish I was there sitting in the background taking in all of that. The teachers must have learned a lot, too. Carl http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_16_2009.html _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 From ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 16 12:46:27 2009 From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com (ensoramanda at ntlworld.com) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:46:27 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Info on Sikhote Alin's shrapnel In-Reply-To: <4AF8766600EFCB60@cp-out8.libero.it> (added by postmaster@cp-out8.libero.it) Message-ID: <20091116174627.FUG25.601699.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> I did not know heat was needed at all to form shrapnel...surely it is just due to shearing of fragments from the dramatic collisions of fragments on impact or during exposive events on the way down that did not leave enough time for ablation? Graham UK ---- Maurizio Eltri wrote: > Hi all, > > I ask to those who are more experienced > than me,clarification about Sikhote Alin's > splinters formation. > In my opinion there can be two ways to > justify the origin of the fragments found in > the vicinity of the largest craters, > 1) The kinetic energy released at the contact > surfaces of meteorite/ground was enough to > melt the frontlayer of the meteorite with > the subsequent violent expulsion of fragments, > fused or partially fused. > 2) Having the meteorites reached the retardation > point at only 5 km of altitude, they would arrived > at an impact with their hot surfaces, this would > facilitate the expulsion of splinters. > I apologize for my bad English. > Maurizio Eltri > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From fujmon at mac.com Mon Nov 16 13:16:51 2009 From: fujmon at mac.com (Gary Fujihara) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:16:51 -1000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 16, 2009 In-Reply-To: <8267DD6829AC49648740F4A92DBC5A69@thinkcentre> References: <495467.26382.qm@web113016.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8267DD6829AC49648740F4A92DBC5A69@thinkcentre> Message-ID: <1E456C43-24CE-4CF1-9BD1-B23656274E97@mac.com> Aloha Michael, Dave, Matthias, What a great RFSPoD! I agree with Matthias that no such outreach ever happened in my youth to inspire my current passion. Through the adventures of Dave (and Jerry Armstrong, Anita Westlake, David Hardy and Sean Murray according to Dave?s article in Meteorite Aug 2008), school children and general public in Georgia are now being exposed to these visitors from space. Great job, and an inspiration to me. Mahalo for all that you guys do! ... and yes Matthias, the madness took long to gestate, but as they say, better late than never ;^) gary On Nov 16, 2009, at 8:03 AM, Matthias B?rmann wrote: > Wonderful photos, Dave, the eyes compete with the meteorites. > > Gosh, if I try to imagine me back in school, the door opens and Mr. Gheesling, entering the desk and chasing away the Latin-teacher, begins telling stories about heavenly stones and, even more, showing some of them and, even much more, allows to hold them in my very own hands - I'd have got mad immediately. > > So it took me several years more to get mad :-( > > Well, but at least I succeeded and got :-) > > Best regards, > > Matthias B. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Johnson" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 6:14 PM > Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 16,2009 > > >> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_16_2009.html >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Gary Fujihara AstroDay Institute 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720 (808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com http://astroday.net From Midwest at Meteorman.org Mon Nov 16 13:17:31 2009 From: Midwest at Meteorman.org (Timothy Heitz) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:17:31 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day References: Message-ID: <386BA7AF5C8A4FC8A20AAD6711E31EDA@den> Very cool stuff Dave!!!! Way to go, Tim Heitz From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Mon Nov 16 13:24:18 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:24:18 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 16, 2009 In-Reply-To: <495467.26382.qm@web113016.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <495467.26382.qm@web113016.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Very nice Dave providing a service to the community.? Some possible Newbies there, I'm sure.? Not many can say they held a piece of the moon and mars at the same time. Keep it up. Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:14:58 -0800 > From: rocksfromspace at yahoo.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 16, 2009 > > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_16_2009.html > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 From ROBERT.D.MATSON at saic.com Mon Nov 16 13:31:41 2009 From: ROBERT.D.MATSON at saic.com (Matson, Robert D.) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:31:41 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteoroid streams: RESEND Message-ID: <7C640E28081AEE4B952F008D1E913F17021BD2DC@0461-its-exmb04.us.saic.com> Has not appeared after 21 hours so resending... --Rob -----Original Message----- From: Matson, Robert D. Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:40 PM To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: Meteoroid streams Hi All, Each time a pair of falls occurs at roughly the same geographic location on approximately the same calendar date (in different years), I suppose it is only human nature to try to assign some cause to the synchronicity. But fall location duplication can be quickly dismissed as random chance, since there is no connection between earth-crossing asteroid orbital periods and earth's rotational period. However, date-synchronized falls ~is~ a possibility. Dr. Rubin and I wrote a paper on this subject which appeared in the journal _Earth, Moon and Planets_ in April 2008: Our conclusion was that due to the tiny fraction of meteorite falls that are successfully recovered each year, and the comparatively short dynamical lifetime of a meteoroid stream (10^4 to 10^5 a), the probability of successful recovery of two falls from the same stream are extremely small. --Rob -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com on behalf of mafer at imagineopals.com Sent: Sun 11/15/2009 12:20 PM To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009; ; 21.25 cmt could there be a "cloud" of objects that Earth's orbit flys through? On November 15, 5:33 pm michael cottingham wrote: > That is Great News!!!! Go Get em! > > Michael Cottingham > On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:22 AM, habibi abdelaziz wrote: > > > hi guys > > each time of this year october and november we have a fall, > > it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a > > precise time and space with a small incertitude of a month, > > > > it fells over rich 20 km north est, > > > > ITS CONFIRMED ? more news to fallow, > > > > thanks > > aziz habibi From drtanuki at yahoo.com Mon Nov 16 13:39:19 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:39:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Gene Shoemaker Impact Video available 17NOV09 Message-ID: <405149.21681.qm@web53105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear List, It was just posted from Youtube: http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/ It is a great video about Gene Shoemaker and his study of impact craters on Earth. If you have not seen it yet I suggest that you view it (parts 1 and 2). Thank you. Dirk Ross...Tokyo From ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 16 13:43:36 2009 From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com (ensoramanda at ntlworld.com) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:43:36 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day/another similar picture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20091116184336.FXAVF.603616.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Hi Dave, Carl, All, Great picture Dave. Probably the only thing that comes close to finding your own meteorite s getting out there with your collection and showing it to other's...just working on a talk and exhibition for tomorrow night. Here's an article on a recent event I helped organize. http://www.derby.ac.uk/science/meteorite-prize-winners Graham, Nr Barwell, UK ---- Carl 's wrote: > > Wow, Dave, What a crowd! Wish I was there sitting in the background taking in all of that. The teachers must have learned a lot, too. > > Carl > > > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_16_2009.html > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From marcin at meteoryt.net Mon Nov 16 13:48:39 2009 From: marcin at meteoryt.net (Marcin Cimala) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:48:39 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] NWA 5205 and Quijungue AD References: <20091116184336.FXAVF.603616.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Message-ID: Hello List I have some new slices of my best type 3 chondrite, NWA 5205. There is also some new slices ow Brasil pallasite Quijingue. www.polandmet.com -----[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-----[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]----- http://www.Meteoryty.pl marcin(at)meteoryty.pl http://www.PolandMET.com marcin(at)polandmet.com http://www.Gao-Guenie.com GSM: +48 (793) 567667 --------[ Member of Polish Meteoritical Society ]-------- From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Mon Nov 16 15:30:00 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:30:00 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Leonid meteor shower to peak Tuesday Message-ID: A reminder - Greg S. http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/space/11/16/nasa.leonid.meteors/index.html (CNN) -- This year's Leonid meteor shower will peak early Tuesday, forecasters say, producing mild but pretty sparks over the United States and a more intense outburst over Asia. "We're predicting 20 to 30 meteors per hour over the Americas and as many as 200 to 300 per hour over Asia," said Bill Cooke, of NASA's meteoroid environment office. "Our forecast is in good accord with ... work by other astronomers." The Leonid shower is made of bits of debris from the Tempel-Tuttle comet, which streaks through Earth's inner solar system every 33 years. It leaves a stream of debris in its wake. Forecasters, however, say it's hard to know exactly how many of the meteors will be visible. "We can predict when Earth will cross a debris stream with pretty good accuracy," Cooke said. "The intensity of the display is less certain, though, because we don't know how much debris is in each stream." The first stream will cross over Earth about 4 a.m. ET. That stream should produce about two or three dozen meteors per hour over North America, NASA said. Experts say people who want to watch the shower, which is visible with the naked eye, should get as far away from city lights as possible. The darker the sky, the brighter the meteors will appear. Leonids will appear to be shooting almost directly out of the planet Mars. High-altitude sites are best for viewing, reducing glare from the moon, and there's no particular direction one should look for the best shot at seeing one, they say. The next Tuesday streams will peak over Indonesia and China shortly before dawn there. The pair of streams there were actually laid down by Tempel-Tuttle in A.D. 1466 and 1533, and the two of them crossing at the same time is the reason for the 300 or so visible meteors expected. "Even if the rates are only half that number, it would still be one of the best showers of the year," Cooke said. Overall, and especially in the United States, this year's Leonids are mild. >From 1999 to 2002, the streams produced outbursts of more than 1,000 meteors per hour. But one added plus this year, Cooke said, is that, coincidentally, Mars will be passing nearby at the time of the showers. "Leonids will appear to be shooting almost directly out of the planet Mars," he said. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ From lintonius at earthlink.net Mon Nov 16 15:46:43 2009 From: lintonius at earthlink.net (Linton Rohr) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:46:43 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Leonid meteor shower to peak Tuesday References: Message-ID: Thanks Greg. I'm about ready to head up to a nice dark sky site for the night. I'll be observing our neighbors in the universe the first part of the night, and lying on my cot in my winter sleeping bag, looking straight up the rest. I may borrow Richard Norton's trick of setting the alarm clock to go off every hour in case I dose off. ;^) The clear sky clock looks great. Good luck to anyone else so inclined. Linton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Stanley" To: Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 12:30 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Leonid meteor shower to peak Tuesday > > A reminder - Greg S. > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/space/11/16/nasa.leonid.meteors/index.html > > > (CNN) -- This year's Leonid meteor shower will peak early Tuesday, > forecasters say, producing mild but pretty sparks over the United States > and a more intense outburst over Asia. > > "We're predicting 20 to 30 meteors per hour over the Americas and as many > as 200 to 300 per hour over Asia," said Bill Cooke, of NASA's meteoroid > environment office. "Our forecast is in good accord with ... work by other > astronomers." > > The Leonid shower is made of bits of debris from the Tempel-Tuttle comet, > which streaks through Earth's inner solar system every 33 years. > > It leaves a stream of debris in its wake. Forecasters, however, say it's > hard to know exactly how many of the meteors will be visible. > > "We can predict when Earth will cross a debris stream with pretty good > accuracy," Cooke said. "The intensity of the display is less certain, > though, because we don't know how much debris is in each stream." > > The first stream will cross over Earth about 4 a.m. ET. That stream should > produce about two or three dozen meteors per hour over North America, NASA > said. > > Experts say people who want to watch the shower, which is visible with the > naked eye, should get as far away from city lights as possible. The darker > the sky, the brighter the meteors will appear. > Leonids will appear to be shooting almost directly out of the planet Mars. > > > High-altitude sites are best for viewing, reducing glare from the moon, > and there's no particular direction one should look for the best shot at > seeing one, they say. > > The next Tuesday streams will peak over Indonesia and China shortly before > dawn there. The pair of streams there were actually laid down by > Tempel-Tuttle in A.D. 1466 and 1533, and the two of them crossing at the > same time is the reason for the 300 or so visible meteors expected. > > "Even if the rates are only half that number, it would still be one of the > best showers of the year," Cooke said. > > Overall, and especially in the United States, this year's Leonids are > mild. > >>From 1999 to 2002, the streams produced outbursts of more than 1,000 >>meteors per hour. > > But one added plus this year, Cooke said, is that, coincidentally, Mars > will be passing nearby at the time of the showers. > > "Leonids will appear to be shooting almost directly out of the planet > Mars," he said. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From damoclid at yahoo.com Mon Nov 16 16:05:40 2009 From: damoclid at yahoo.com (Richard Kowalski) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:05:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Leonid meteor shower to peak Tuesday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <742172.25847.qm@web33903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I saw quite a few in our "all-sky" camera at the telescope last night. Several nice slow, bright Taurids too. Should be a good show! Wish I had had my camera set up. -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA #1081 --- On Mon, 11/16/09, Greg Stanley wrote: > From: Greg Stanley > Subject: [meteorite-list] Leonid meteor shower to peak Tuesday > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 1:30 PM > > A reminder - Greg S. > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/space/11/16/nasa.leonid.meteors/index.html > > > (CNN) -- This year's Leonid meteor shower will peak early > Tuesday, forecasters say, producing mild but pretty sparks > over the United States and a more intense outburst over > Asia. > > "We're predicting 20 to 30 meteors per hour over the > Americas and as many as 200 to 300 per hour over Asia," said > Bill Cooke, of NASA's meteoroid environment office. "Our > forecast is in good accord with ... work by other > astronomers." > > The Leonid shower is made of bits of debris from the > Tempel-Tuttle comet, which streaks through Earth's inner > solar system every 33 years. > > It leaves a stream of debris in its wake. Forecasters, > however, say it's hard to know exactly how many of the > meteors will be visible. > > "We can predict when Earth will cross a debris stream with > pretty good accuracy," Cooke said. "The intensity of the > display is less certain, though, because we don't know how > much debris is in each stream." > > The first stream will cross over Earth about 4 a.m. ET. > That stream should produce about two or three dozen meteors > per hour over North America, NASA said. > > Experts say people who want to watch the shower, which is > visible with the naked eye, should get as far away from city > lights as possible. The darker the sky, the brighter the > meteors will appear. > Leonids will appear to be shooting almost directly out of > the planet Mars. > > > High-altitude sites are best for viewing, reducing glare > from the moon, and there's no particular direction one > should look for the best shot at seeing one, they say. > > The next Tuesday streams will peak over Indonesia and China > shortly before dawn there. The pair of streams there were > actually laid down by Tempel-Tuttle in A.D. 1466 and 1533, > and the two of them crossing at the same time is the reason > for the 300 or so visible meteors expected. > > "Even if the rates are only half that number, it would > still be one of the best showers of the year," Cooke said. > > Overall, and especially in the United States, this year's > Leonids are mild. > > >From 1999 to 2002, the streams produced outbursts of > more than 1,000 meteors per hour. > > But one added plus this year, Cooke said, is that, > coincidentally, Mars will be passing nearby at the time of > the showers. > > "Leonids will appear to be shooting almost directly out of > the planet Mars," he said. > > ??? > ???????? > ?????? ??? > ? > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM > protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From grf2 at comcast.net Mon Nov 16 16:55:57 2009 From: grf2 at comcast.net (Jerry Flaherty) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:55:57 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Gene Shoemaker Impact Video available 17NOV09 References: <405149.21681.qm@web53105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4355FE001672433A8F870527D601949B@ASUS> Dirk thanks, awesomme!!!!!!!! I haven't seen this in years -------------------------------------------------- From: "drtanuki" Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 1:39 PM To: Cc: "Rockhounds" ; "IMCA MAILING LIST" Subject: [meteorite-list] Gene Shoemaker Impact Video available 17NOV09 > Dear List, > > It was just posted from Youtube: > > http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/ > > It is a great video about Gene Shoemaker and his study of impact craters > on Earth. If you have not seen it yet I suggest that you view it (parts 1 > and 2). > > Thank you. Dirk Ross...Tokyo > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From mike.hankey at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 17:11:54 2009 From: mike.hankey at gmail.com (Mike Hankey) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:11:54 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] earth rocks that contain nickel Message-ID: Dear List, With all the recent attention put on newbies I thought now would be the perfect time to ask something stupid. My Question: What Earth rocks naturally contain nickel? The reason I ask is I have found some rocks that test positive for nickel. I have used the Nickel allergy test, the cotton swab turned pink and stayed pink for more than 5 minutes. When researching this nearly every source I have found says nickel inside of earth rocks is very rare and a good sign for positive meteorite identification. The rock in question: - has a black crust (not as nice as I would expect), - it has a bulk density of 3.6, - it has shiny, small metal flakes on inside - it is magnetic, - it does not leave a streak - it tests positive for nickel - it is not slag (no vesicles, stony gray interior) I do not think this is a meteorite because the interior looks like ingenious rock and I have not been able to find meteorite pictures that look similar. So what I'm really trying to do is get a list of earth rocks together that do contain nickel so that I can ID it off of one of them (and ignore it in the future if I come across it again). I have read this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel and the samples on that page, limonite, garnierite, pentlandite don't seem to match up with what I have here. Here is a picture of the rock in question: http://www.mikesastrophotos.com/rocks/nickel-rock.jpg Thanks, Mike >From University of Washington 'Gallery of meteor wrongs...' With a few rare and well known exceptions, naturally occurring terrestrial rock do not contain iron metal or iron-nickel metal. There are two reasons. First, early in Earth's history the iron-nickel metal sank to form the Earth's core. Second, any metal that did not sink has oxidized (rusted) over Earth's long history. The Earth's environment is far more oxidizing (oxygen atmosphere and water) than space, where meteorites originate. Earth rocks do contain iron and nickel, but only in oxidized (non-metallic) form. Therefore, if you find a rock that contains iron-nickel metal, it's probably a meteorite. That sounds simple, but there are two problems. First, many people find slags and other by-products of metal manufacturing. Some of the samples that have been brought to us may have been from forges or blacksmith shops that are more than 100 years old (see meteorwrongs 026, 027, 061, 065, 070, 075, 093, and 122). Others appear to fall from the sky for unknown reasons (see Getafe). Metal in slags and industrial by-products is mostly iron. Such materials will probably contain little nickel (much less than 1%). So, if you can determine that the sample has little or no nickel, then the sample is not a meteorite. The second problem is that some minerals in terrestrial rocks look like metal but are not. All that glitters is not metal. Many rocks contain small grains of sulfide minerals like pyrite ("fool's gold") or micas that are finely disseminated and shiny. I've had many people tell me, "But, it contains metal!" when there really isn't any. Clue: If there are shiny bits in it but it's not magnetic, it's not a meteorite (Meteorite Realities). From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Mon Nov 16 17:24:49 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:24:49 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] earth rocks that contain nickel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike: Try this: http://www.galleries.com/scripts/search.exe?nickel I use this site for identifying my odd mineral specimens.? Has a lot of good information and pictures. Hope it turns out to be something interesting.? Where did you find it? Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:11:54 -0500 > From: mike.hankey at gmail.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] earth rocks that contain nickel > > Dear List, > > With all the recent attention put on newbies I thought now would be > the perfect time to ask something stupid. > > My Question: What Earth rocks naturally contain nickel? > > The reason I ask is I have found some rocks that test positive for > nickel. I have used the Nickel allergy test, the cotton swab turned > pink and stayed pink for more than 5 minutes. > > When researching this nearly every source I have found says nickel > inside of earth rocks is very rare and a good sign for positive > meteorite identification. > > The rock in question: > - has a black crust (not as nice as I would expect), > - it has a bulk density of 3.6, > - it has shiny, small metal flakes on inside > - it is magnetic, > - it does not leave a streak > - it tests positive for nickel > - it is not slag (no vesicles, stony gray interior) > > I do not think this is a meteorite because the interior looks like > ingenious rock and I have not been able to find meteorite pictures > that look similar. > > So what I'm really trying to do is get a list of earth rocks together > that do contain nickel so that I can ID it off of one of them (and > ignore it in the future if I come across it again). I have read this > page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel and the samples on that > page, limonite, garnierite, pentlandite don't seem to match up with > what I have here. > > Here is a picture of the rock in question: > > http://www.mikesastrophotos.com/rocks/nickel-rock.jpg > > Thanks, > > Mike > > > > >>From University of Washington 'Gallery of meteor wrongs...' > > With a few rare and well known exceptions, naturally occurring > terrestrial rock do not contain iron metal or iron-nickel metal. There > are two reasons. First, early in Earth's history the iron-nickel metal > sank to form the Earth's core. Second, any metal that did not sink has > oxidized (rusted) over Earth's long history. The Earth's environment > is far more oxidizing (oxygen atmosphere and water) than space, where > meteorites originate. Earth rocks do contain iron and nickel, but only > in oxidized (non-metallic) form. Therefore, if you find a rock that > contains iron-nickel metal, it's probably a meteorite. That sounds > simple, but there are two problems. > > First, many people find slags and other by-products of metal > manufacturing. Some of the samples that have been brought to us may > have been from forges or blacksmith shops that are more than 100 years > old (see meteorwrongs 026, 027, 061, 065, 070, 075, 093, and 122). > Others appear to fall from the sky for unknown reasons (see Getafe). > Metal in slags and industrial by-products is mostly iron. Such > materials will probably contain little nickel (much less than 1%). So, > if you can determine that the sample has little or no nickel, then the > sample is not a meteorite. > > The second problem is that some minerals in terrestrial rocks look > like metal but are not. All that glitters is not metal. Many rocks > contain small grains of sulfide minerals like pyrite ("fool's gold") > or micas that are finely disseminated and shiny. I've had many people > tell me, "But, it contains metal!" when there really isn't any. Clue: > If there are shiny bits in it but it's not magnetic, it's not a > meteorite (Meteorite Realities). > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From bernd.pauli at paulinet.de Mon Nov 16 17:29:30 2009 From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de (bernd.pauli at paulinet.de) Date: 16 Nov 2009 22:29:30 UT Subject: [meteorite-list] Christmas Fair and Pauline Message-ID: > My Question: What Earth rocks naturally contain nickel? Hello Mike and List, Most of the Sudbury impact material is sulfide-rich and nickeliferous! ... and, of course, Ovifak (Greenland). Best wishes, Bernd From bernd.pauli at paulinet.de Mon Nov 16 17:32:59 2009 From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de (bernd.pauli at paulinet.de) Date: 16 Nov 2009 22:32:59 UT Subject: [meteorite-list] Nickel Message-ID: Oops, wrong headline! :-( Sorry! Bernd From epgrondine at yahoo.com Mon Nov 16 17:58:40 2009 From: epgrondine at yahoo.com (E.P. Grondine) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:58:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] YD impacts: isotopes, image?, Carolina Bays, and AD Message-ID: <266766.50619.qm@web36908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Paul, Rich - I am sceptical of Firestone's claim of supernova as the production mechanism for the isotope variations observed. As an alternative, my GUESS (hypothesis) is that neutrons and protons are freed in large hyper-velocity impacts. This should be a relatively easy hypothesis to check. If I am correct about one spike in the INTCAL98 chart, then Barringer crater in Arizona should be surrounded by unusual isotopes. Or it may be that deuterium or tritium in comets is the material from which the neutrons and protons are freed; I have no idea whether nucleon binding energies vary from element to element, or from isotope to isotope. In any case, since my stroke all of this kind of work is beyond me. If any list participant wants an image of what may be a Native American petroglyph showing this impact, or at least a cometary impact, please contact me off list. On the Carolina Bays, there appears to be evidence for an impact mega-tsunami hitting the east coast of North America around 1,050 BCE. This may be reflected in the Carolina Bays' distribution and their contents. I'd like to thank Gary Fujihara for his mention of my book in his list, and I'd like to thank Dirk for setting up a blogspot for me: http://manandimpactsintheamericas.blogspot.com/ Go by and take a look. As always, copies of my book are available to list members for $20 plus $5 for shipping in the US, or plus $15 for shipping outside the US. Dealers with stores please contact me off list if you want to carry copies. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas From epgrondine at yahoo.com Mon Nov 16 18:12:22 2009 From: epgrondine at yahoo.com (E.P. Grondine) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:12:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] RFSPOD, Educational presentations Message-ID: <644388.57452.qm@web36908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi all - I did several educational outreaches at powwows this year. If you saw the image in the Rocks from Space Picture of the Day, that young girl's smile is a typical reaction. If you haven't done one of these yet, I can guarantee you'll get many of them. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas From cynapse at charter.net Mon Nov 16 18:43:12 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:43:12 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Add asteroid, stir vigorously In-Reply-To: <7C640E28081AEE4B952F008D1E913F17021BD2DC@0461-its-exmb04.us.saic.com> References: <7C640E28081AEE4B952F008D1E913F17021BD2DC@0461-its-exmb04.us.saic.com> Message-ID: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/11/giant-asteroid-impact-could-have-stirred-entire-ocean/ Giant Asteroid Impact Could Have Stirred Entire Ocean The collision of a large extraterrestrial object with Earth almost 2 billion years ago may have stirred the seas worldwide and delivered a huge serving of oxygen to the deep ocean. The Sudbury impact, named after the Canadian city located near the center of what remains of the ancient crater, happened around 1.85 billion years ago (SN: 6/15/02, p. 378). Despite erosion since then, the impact structure ?at least 200 kilometers across ? is recognized to be the second-largest on the face of the planet, says William Cannon, a geologist with the U.S. Geological Survey in Reston, Va., and coauthor on a paper in the November Geology. The event fundamentally affected the concentrations of dissolved oxygen in the deep sea ? enough to almost instantly shut down the accumulation of marine sediments known as banded iron formations, report Cannon and coauthor John F. Slack, also of the USGS in Reston. Banded iron formations, massive deposits rich in iron oxides, have accumulated at several periods in Earth?s long-distant geological past, mostly when atmospheric concentrations of oxygen were low (SN: 6/20/09, p. 24). One extended episode of banded iron formation (or BIF) buildup suddenly ? and without an obvious explanation ? ended about 1.85 billion years ago, says Cannon. Over a very short interval, he notes, ?the environment shifted from one happily making banded iron to one that wasn?t.? In northern Minnesota and other areas nearby, the formations lie directly underneath a thick layer of material only recently recognized as ejecta from the Sudbury impact. Mark Jirsa, a geologist with the Minnesota Geological Survey in St. Paul, was a member of the team that identified the ejecta layer. ?We intuitively connected the Sudbury impact with the shutdown of BIF accumulation,? he says. ?But now [Cannon and Slack] have come up with a model for how that might have happened.? About 1.85 billion years ago, Earth?s now separate landmasses were joined in a single supercontinent. That also means there was one large ocean, says Cannon. Many scientists suggest that the object that slammed into Earth then ? probably an asteroid abut 10 kilometers across ? splashed down in that ocean, in waters about 1 kilometer deep on the shallow shelf surrounding the supercontinent. Models hint that the tsunami spawned by the event would have been 1 kilometer tall at the impact site and remained at least 100 meters tall about 3,000 kilometers away, Cannon adds. Those immense waves and large underwater landslides triggered by the impact stirred the ocean, bringing oxygenated waters from the surface down to the ocean floor, the researchers propose. Sediments deposited on the seafloor before the impact, including BIFs, contained little if any iron in its Fe(III) form but were high in Fe(II), a sign that most parts of the ocean were oxygen-free. But marine sediments deposited after the impact included substantial amounts of Fe(III) but very little Fe(II) ? and, therefore, sizable amounts of dissolved oxygen. The team?s analyses suggest that after the impact, dissolved iron spewed into the deepest parts of the ocean by hydrothermal vents would have reacted with oxygen within a day or so, thereby choking off most of the supply of Fe(II) to shallower waters where BIFs typically accumulated. While Cannon and Slack?s model explains how BIF accumulation might have suddenly ceased 1.85 billion years ago, it doesn?t prove that?s how it happened, Jirsa warns. Nevertheless, he notes, ?scientists are closer to an explanation than we previously were.? The geological record suggests that environmental changes were happening in oceans worldwide even before the Sudbury impact, he adds, ?and the role that the impact played, if any, in shutting down BIF accumulation isn?t well understood.? From dave at fallingrocks.com Mon Nov 16 18:57:02 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:57:02 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day/another similar picture In-Reply-To: <20091116184336.FXAVF.603616.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> References: <20091116184336.FXAVF.603616.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Message-ID: <92A8680D79464C209914F39BAD21A57A@meteorroom> Absolutely fantastic, Graham...love that! Thanks to you, Graham, and to the many others for sending kind words about Michael Johnson's post of my photos earlier today. But I must say that ANYONE here on the list can do this -- and that's the reason I ask Michael to post these little hints from time to time ;-) Thanks again Michael, not only for throwing a little educational outreach into your mix, but also for everything you do to keep bringing us RFSPOD! All the best, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 1:44 PM To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; Carl 's Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day/another similar picture Hi Dave, Carl, All, Great picture Dave. Probably the only thing that comes close to finding your own meteorite s getting out there with your collection and showing it to other's...just working on a talk and exhibition for tomorrow night. Here's an article on a recent event I helped organize. http://www.derby.ac.uk/science/meteorite-prize-winners Graham, Nr Barwell, UK ---- Carl 's wrote: > > Wow, Dave, What a crowd! Wish I was there sitting in the background taking in all of that. The teachers must have learned a lot, too. > > Carl > > > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_16_2009.html > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid= > PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From epgrondine at yahoo.com Mon Nov 16 20:15:39 2009 From: epgrondine at yahoo.com (E.P. Grondine) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:15:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Carolina Bays Message-ID: <928201.45906.qm@web36905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Paul - "In my opinion, as far as the Carolina Bays are concerned, they are a nothing more than a time-consuming red herring of gigantic proportions. Even if the Carolina Bays are impact features of some sort, they clearly are much too old be connected in anyway with a Younger Dryas event." In this case, I would think that the thing to do would be to look for another Kitscoty type structure indicating impact with an ice sheet. In his most recent summary, Firestone showed another set of what he views as secondary impact craters, but these with a different directional foci, i.l. from a different impact. Otto Muck was probably the person most responsible for popularizing the notion of the Carolina Bays as impact structures, but he saw them as the result of an mega-tsunami from an impact in the Atlantic Ocean. Myself, I am still waiting for the USGS cores from the Carolinas. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas From epgrondine at yahoo.com Mon Nov 16 20:43:47 2009 From: epgrondine at yahoo.com (E.P. Grondine) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:43:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] YD impacts, agan Message-ID: <95400.87928.qm@web36903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Darren - You pretty well summed it up. Firestone's earlier hypothesis have been all over the place. I know this may sound strange to you, but when you're doing cutting edge research you can make mistakes. Note that responsible researchers disagree with McSween on the number of parent bodies for meteorites. I suppose that all of this is what happens when a nuclear physicist becomes involved in trying to explain impact data, and having no one to help him. It's really a shame the Dr. Peiser took the Cambridge Conference over to Global Warming Scepticism, otherwise all of this would have been hashed out a long while back. It's also a shame the Shoemaker died in that auto accident. He was the best the USGS had. Finally, it's a shame that NASA spent no money studying recent Earth impacts, but instead wasted it on the Ares 1. The interesting part in all of this is how many new unsuspected impacts are being evidenced by those involved with Firestone. We now have two, one in Alaska, another in Siberia. And the other ice impacts indicated by the orientation of secondary impact craters. As far as the injection mechanism goes, I'll stay with Clube and Napier for the time being, and forego the supernova hypothesis. Which leaves me with those isotopes to explain... But the bottom line is that 90 to 95% of the people living in North America died at 10,900 BCE, and those that survived left their descendants memories of what had occurred. In closing, even I myself have been wrong in the past, and I retain the right to be wrong both now and in the future. PS - someday impactites from the YD event will come on the market. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas Darren wrote: "Okay, a review-- so far this impactor has been a 500 mile wide snowflake from the atmosphere of a supernova hitting at hundreds of kilometers per second. It has been an airburst over ice leaving no crater. It has left craters deeper than Death Valley in the Great Lakes. It has caused golden showers and a rain of diamonds that lasted for months. It shotgun-blasted iron particles into the tusks of mammoths. It has been a comet. It has been a chondrite, and all meteorites found by or through Nininger have been debris from it, so it was actually all types of chondrite and everything else Nininger collected. Now, it is an extrasolar lunar meteorite from the future. So, to sum it up, this 500 mile 10 mile very low-density metal and stone filled comet-asteroid supernova-produced lunar snowflake that struck at hundreds of kilometers per second did and didn't produce impact craters and left no marks except for the Great Lakes and thousands of very shallow overlapping, highly oblong pits exactly like craters from an impact event except for craters from an impact event rarely being very shallow, overlapping, highly oblong pits. It killed off all the lost Ice Age fauna at once, except for all of the Ice Age fauna, which went extinct at different times in different locations and spread out over thousands to tens of thousands of years (in some spots pretty darn well timed with the establishment of human populations, coincidence or no.) Oh, and somehow a supernova is still involved. That isn't refining an idea-- that is throwing everything you can think of against the wall and hoping that some of it sticks. From debfred at att.net Mon Nov 16 23:40:21 2009 From: debfred at att.net (debfred at att.net) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 04:40:21 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Info on Sikhote Alin's shrapnel In-Reply-To: <20091116174627.FUG25.601699.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> References: <4AF8766600EFCB60@cp-out8.libero.it> (added bypostmaster@cp-out8.libero.it) <20091116174627.FUG25.601699.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Message-ID: <111720090440.4186.4B02293500049DE30000105A22218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0B0A9D000D0A0B@att.net> List, I have searched many Kilos of SA shrapnel without ever finding ONE without some surface melting. From what I have seen shrapnel is ALL air shredding with subsequent atmospheric frictional melting. Cheers, Fred Olsen -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: > I did not know heat was needed at all to form shrapnel...surely it is just due to shearing of fragments from the dramatic collisions of fragments on impact or during exposive events on the way down that did not leave enough time for > ablation? > > Graham UK > > ---- Maurizio Eltri wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I ask to those who are more experienced > > than me,clarification about Sikhote Alin's > > splinters formation. > > In my opinion there can be two ways to > > justify the origin of the fragments found in > > the vicinity of the largest craters, > > 1) The kinetic energy released at the contact > > surfaces of meteorite/ground was enough to > > melt the frontlayer of the meteorite with > > the subsequent violent expulsion of fragments, > > fused or partially fused. > > 2) Having the meteorites reached the retardation > > point at only 5 km of altitude, they would arrived > > at an impact with their hot surfaces, this would > > facilitate the expulsion of splinters. > > I apologize for my bad English. > > Maurizio Eltri > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From P.Davidson at nms.ac.uk Tue Nov 17 06:21:01 2009 From: P.Davidson at nms.ac.uk (Peter Davidson) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:21:01 -0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage References: <5bb98d570911140928o3868139dy2592a85ad203f31b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Kevin When I travelled to Ensisheim this year (Edinburgh - London - Basel), I carried my display specimens, including some very valuable specimens from our collection, and comprising all types of meteorite, in my hand luggage without any problems. I cannot speak for all carriers, but as far as I am aware, they are not prohibited items. The only problem I can see is the weight. I would check with the airline first to see a) that it ok to carry meteorites on board and b) what is the maximum weight you can carry as hand luggage. Best of luck Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals National Museums Collection Centre National Museums Scotland 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Phone: +44 131 247 4283 p.davidson at nms.ac.uk www.nms.ac.uk -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Kichinka Sent: 14 November 2009 17:28 To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage I want to bring two iron meteorites, one a Campo of 10 kgs., the other a Gibeon of 4 kgs., to Costa Rica from Miami on American Airlines. I would never check them and take a chance they might disappear. I would carry them on the plane in a small suitcase. Are these prohibited items? How do dealers flying around the planet to shows ship their rocks? Thanks for any and all that have experience with this and respond. Kevin Kichinka ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Salt of the Earth: famous faces with Scottish roots, photographed by Craig Mackay. National Museum of Scotland. Until 10 January. www.nms.ac.uk/salt From meteoritekid at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 06:49:21 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 03:49:21 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Info on Sikhote Alin's shrapnel In-Reply-To: <111720090440.4186.4B02293500049DE30000105A22218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0B0A9D000D0A0B@att.net> References: <4AF8766600EFCB60@cp-out8.libero.it> <20091116174627.FUG25.601699.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> <111720090440.4186.4B02293500049DE30000105A22218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0B0A9D000D0A0B@att.net> Message-ID: <93aaac890911170349m508d1790te9e42cae85e9f3f8@mail.gmail.com> Fred, Maurizio, Graham, On the contrary, it is generally accepted the the vast majority of the jagged shrapnel fragments found were formed when the larger masses came into direct contact with permafrost and bedrock. Such is said by Buchwald, Krinov, and..., well, to be frank, I've gone through many, many kilos of shrapnel as well. While I have seen the rare specimen that exhibited surface melting, they typically appeared to be smaller fragments of larger individuals upon which small patches of fusion crust were preserved (analogous to fragments of stony meteorites with patches of primary crust on them, from fragmented larger individuals). Many batches of shrapnel do appear to be somewhat ablated due to the method by which they have been cleaned (tumbling with ball bearings tends to wear corners down and gives the false impression of surfaces having melted). Given the fine scratches and gouges I've seen on the majority of lightly-cleaned specimens, I'd have to say that, no, Sikhote shrapnel rarely exhibits any trace of ablation. Regards, Jason On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:40 PM, wrote: > ?List, I have searched many Kilos of SA shrapnel without ever finding ONE without some surface melting. From what I have seen shrapnel is ALL air shredding with subsequent atmospheric frictional melting. > Cheers, Fred Olsen > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: >> > I did not know heat was needed at all to form shrapnel...surely it is just due > to shearing of fragments from the dramatic collisions of fragments on impact or > during exposive events on the way down that did not leave enough time for >> ablation? >> >> Graham UK >> >> ---- Maurizio Eltri wrote: >> > Hi all, >> > >> > I ask to those who are more experienced >> > than me,clarification about Sikhote Alin's >> > splinters formation. >> > In my opinion there can be two ways to >> > justify the origin of the fragments found in >> > the vicinity of the largest craters, >> > 1) The kinetic energy released at the contact >> > surfaces of meteorite/ground was enough to >> > melt the frontlayer of the meteorite with >> > the subsequent violent expulsion of fragments, >> > fused or partially fused. >> > 2) Having the meteorites reached the retardation >> > point at only 5 km of altitude, they would arrived >> > at an impact with their hot surfaces, this would >> > facilitate the expulsion of splinters. >> > I apologize for my bad English. >> > Maurizio Eltri >> > >> > ______________________________________________ >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Tue Nov 17 07:09:36 2009 From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com (ensoramanda at ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:09:36 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Info on Sikhote Alin's shrapnel In-Reply-To: <111720090440.4186.4B02293500049DE30000105A22218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0B0A9D000D0A0B@att.net> Message-ID: <20091117120936.6ZTXV.617559.root@web01-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Hi Fred, List, How does that explain all the shrapnel found in the sides of the trees or holes straight through standing trees? Surely shrapnel was produced both on the way down and on impact? I have pieces that seem to have no sign of ablation, just lots of shear lines. Graham, Uk ---- debfred at att.net wrote: > List, I have searched many Kilos of SA shrapnel without ever finding ONE without some surface melting. From what I have seen shrapnel is ALL air shredding with subsequent atmospheric frictional melting. > Cheers, Fred Olsen > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: > > > I did not know heat was needed at all to form shrapnel...surely it is just due > to shearing of fragments from the dramatic collisions of fragments on impact or > during exposive events on the way down that did not leave enough time for > > ablation? > > > > Graham UK > > > > ---- Maurizio Eltri wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I ask to those who are more experienced > > > than me,clarification about Sikhote Alin's > > > splinters formation. > > > In my opinion there can be two ways to > > > justify the origin of the fragments found in > > > the vicinity of the largest craters, > > > 1) The kinetic energy released at the contact > > > surfaces of meteorite/ground was enough to > > > melt the frontlayer of the meteorite with > > > the subsequent violent expulsion of fragments, > > > fused or partially fused. > > > 2) Having the meteorites reached the retardation > > > point at only 5 km of altitude, they would arrived > > > at an impact with their hot surfaces, this would > > > facilitate the expulsion of splinters. > > > I apologize for my bad English. > > > Maurizio Eltri > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > From info at meteorites.com.au Tue Nov 17 07:43:52 2009 From: info at meteorites.com.au (Jeff Kuyken) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 23:43:52 +1100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Info on Sikhote Alin's shrapnel In-Reply-To: <20091117120936.6ZTXV.617559.root@web01-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> References: <20091117120936.6ZTXV.617559.root@web01-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Message-ID: Hi Graham, Jason, Fred, Maurizio and all, I quote from the 50's Russian Academy of Sciences Sikhote Alin Recovery Film... "On some individuals, some of the freshly broken edges were slightly melted. It indicated that all meteorites were from one mass which fragmented in the Earth's atmosphere. The largest parts formed craters on impact and broke into thousands of pieces." So everyone is right! ;-) It has always been said that there were two origins for Sikhote shrapnel... both atmospheric and ground fragments. You may even find that many (if not most) of the tree embedded fragments were from the small pieces spraying out from the crater forming events. But that's just speculation on my part. For anyone who has not seen the recovery film: http://www.meteorites.com.au/odds&ends/sikhote-alin.html Cheers, Jeff Kuyken Meteorites Australia www.meteorites.com.au Director - I.M.C.A. Inc. www.imca.cc ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; "Maurizio Eltri" Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 11:09 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Info on Sikhote Alin's shrapnel > Hi Fred, List, > > How does that explain all the shrapnel found in the sides of the trees or > holes straight through standing trees? Surely shrapnel was produced both > on the way down and on impact? > > I have pieces that seem to have no sign of ablation, just lots of shear > lines. > > Graham, Uk > > ---- debfred at att.net wrote: >> List, I have searched many Kilos of SA shrapnel without ever finding >> ONE without some surface melting. From what I have seen shrapnel is ALL >> air shredding with subsequent atmospheric frictional melting. >> Cheers, Fred Olsen >> -------------- Original message ---------------------- >> From: >> > >> I did not know heat was needed at all to form shrapnel...surely it is >> just due >> to shearing of fragments from the dramatic collisions of fragments on >> impact or >> during exposive events on the way down that did not leave enough time for >> > ablation? >> > >> > Graham UK >> > >> > ---- Maurizio Eltri wrote: >> > > Hi all, >> > > >> > > I ask to those who are more experienced >> > > than me,clarification about Sikhote Alin's >> > > splinters formation. >> > > In my opinion there can be two ways to >> > > justify the origin of the fragments found in >> > > the vicinity of the largest craters, >> > > 1) The kinetic energy released at the contact >> > > surfaces of meteorite/ground was enough to >> > > melt the frontlayer of the meteorite with >> > > the subsequent violent expulsion of fragments, >> > > fused or partially fused. >> > > 2) Having the meteorites reached the retardation >> > > point at only 5 km of altitude, they would arrived >> > > at an impact with their hot surfaces, this would >> > > facilitate the expulsion of splinters. >> > > I apologize for my bad English. >> > > Maurizio Eltri >> > > >> > > ______________________________________________ >> > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> > > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > >> > ______________________________________________ >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> >> >> >> > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > From meteoritekid at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 07:48:11 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 04:48:11 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Info on Sikhote Alin's shrapnel In-Reply-To: <20091117120936.6ZTXV.617559.root@web01-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> References: <111720090440.4186.4B02293500049DE30000105A22218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0B0A9D000D0A0B@att.net> <20091117120936.6ZTXV.617559.root@web01-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Message-ID: <93aaac890911170448x25f1ebbcka2ed031308b0b1e8@mail.gmail.com> Hello Graham, All, On the contrary, the typical pieces of "shrapnel" found were in my opinion formed exclusively on impact - the force of the explosive impacts was certainly adequate to drive sizable fragments through practically any tree (well, let's exclude things like Sequoias...). There are two types of Sikhote-Alin fragments, though. There are the pieces that show atmospheric fragmentation - these typically exhibit surfaces that appear torn but are not technically "shrapnel." Then there are the specimens that formed upon impact - the torn, jagged "shrapnel" pieces. Here are examples of each: Atmospheric Tear: www.aerolite.org/.../ sikhote-alin-aaa-33-2.htm http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/a/ab/20050827232208!SikhoteAlinMeteorite.jpg http://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/S?bor:SikhoteAlinMeteorite.jpg Then you have the impact fragments: http://www.carionmineraux.com/mineraux/mineraux_decembre_2008/meteorite_sikhote_alin_top_1.jpg http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4j-MWz4xHuI/SU-HOSQNOgI/AAAAAAAAAII/CwiJw7cjXTw/Sikhote_Alin_78gram_01.jpg Right - I just got Jeff's message...mhm. Regards, Jason On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 4:09 AM, wrote: > Hi Fred, List, > > How does that explain all the shrapnel found in the sides of the trees or holes straight through standing trees? Surely shrapnel was produced both on the way down and on impact? > > I have pieces that seem to have no sign of ablation, just lots of shear lines. > > Graham, Uk > > ---- debfred at att.net wrote: >> ? List, I have searched many Kilos of SA shrapnel without ever finding ONE without some surface melting. From what I have seen shrapnel is ALL air shredding with subsequent atmospheric frictional melting. >> Cheers, Fred Olsen >> -------------- Original message ---------------------- >> From: >> > >> I did not know heat was needed at all to form shrapnel...surely it is just due >> to shearing of fragments from the dramatic collisions of fragments on impact or >> during exposive events on the way down that did not leave enough time for >> > ablation? >> > >> > Graham UK >> > >> > ---- Maurizio Eltri wrote: >> > > Hi all, >> > > >> > > I ask to those who are more experienced >> > > than me,clarification about Sikhote Alin's >> > > splinters formation. >> > > In my opinion there can be two ways to >> > > justify the origin of the fragments found in >> > > the vicinity of the largest craters, >> > > 1) The kinetic energy released at the contact >> > > surfaces of meteorite/ground was enough to >> > > melt the frontlayer of the meteorite with >> > > the subsequent violent expulsion of fragments, >> > > fused or partially fused. >> > > 2) Having the meteorites reached the retardation >> > > point at only 5 km of altitude, they would arrived >> > > at an impact with their hot surfaces, this would >> > > facilitate the expulsion of splinters. >> > > I apologize for my bad English. >> > > Maurizio Eltri >> > > >> > > ______________________________________________ >> > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> > > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > >> > ______________________________________________ >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> >> >> >> > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From michael at rocksfromspace.org Tue Nov 17 08:27:29 2009 From: michael at rocksfromspace.org (Michael Johnson) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 05:27:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 17, 2009 Message-ID: <1071820926.630141258464449849.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_17_2009.html From mike.hankey at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 11:47:47 2009 From: mike.hankey at gmail.com (Mike Hankey) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:47:47 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Leonids Meteor Picture Message-ID: I captured a Leonids picture last night! http://www.mikesastrophotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/leonoid.jpg At the time I was focused on Procyon and shooting continuously and waiting and watching. I saw a meteor radiate directly out of Procyon and was like NO WAY! But I check the camera screen and couldn't see anything. I didn't realize I caught it until this morning when I was reviewing the pics. Its pretty faint, at the time my f ratio was jacked up at f/5. I've since lowered it and ordered a new lens that can do f/1.4. It was much brighter in person, its a little faint in the pic. Still really happy I caught it. For reference purposes: I was using a Canon 20D, piggy back mounted on my telescope with ISO 800, f/5 focal ratio and a 60 second exposure. From eric at meteoritesusa.com Tue Nov 17 12:18:07 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:18:07 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Message-ID: <4B02DACF.7050209@meteoritesusa.com> Hi all, With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not like the Sikhote. Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin meteorite? Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA From korotev at wustl.edu Tue Nov 17 12:21:46 2009 From: korotev at wustl.edu (Randy Korotev) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:21:46 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] earth rocks that contain nickel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200911171721.nAHHLGW12544@levee.wustl.edu> Mike: I have some plots here of Ni concentrations in Earth rocks compared to meteorites: http://meteorites.wustl.edu/metcomp/ni.htm All the white symbols are Earth rocks; the colored and black symbols are meteorites. Chondrites start at 10,000 ppm (=1.0%). Irons aren't plotted, but they'd start at 50,000 ppm (5%) Ni. The small white circles are data for a suite of "geostandards" from around the world - typical rocks ground up by some agency like the USGS or foreign equivalent for use as inter-laboratory standards. The large white circles are data for rocks people have contacted me about and then followed my advice and had them analyzed. Some of the geostandards reach 2500 ppm, about one quarter of what a low-Ni chondrite would have. These rocks are all what geologists would call ultramafic rocks - peridotites, dunites, and serpentinite (a metamorphosed peridotite or dunite). One is a platinum ore. I don't have data for nickel ores. I suppose they'd be higher yet in Ni. The one thing these rocks all have in common is a high proportion of olivine. Peridotites and dunites are denser than most common rocks, ~3.3 g/cm^3, except iron-oxide rocks. The DMG nickel test is very sensitive. I've gotten positive responses from metals with only ~1000 ppm Ni, much lower than in meteoritic metal. So, I suppose that a dunite might test positive if first hit with a bit of acid to release some nickel from the olivine. Keep in mind that Ni-rich meteorites are rich in Ni because they contain (or once contained) Fe-Ni metal. The Earth rocks contain Ni because ionic (= nonmetallic) Ni substitutes for Fe in the olivine. Note that many achondrites (HED, lunar, martian) have Ni in the range of terrestrial rocks. That's because they don't have (much) FeNi metal. Randy Korotev At 16:11 16-11-09 Monday, Mike Hankey wrote: >Dear List, > >With all the recent attention put on newbies I thought now would be >the perfect time to ask something stupid. > >My Question: What Earth rocks naturally contain nickel? > >The reason I ask is I have found some rocks that test positive for >nickel. I have used the Nickel allergy test, the cotton swab turned >pink and stayed pink for more than 5 minutes. > >When researching this nearly every source I have found says nickel >inside of earth rocks is very rare and a good sign for positive >meteorite identification. > >The rock in question: > - has a black crust (not as nice as I would expect), > - it has a bulk density of 3.6, > - it has shiny, small metal flakes on inside > - it is magnetic, > - it does not leave a streak > - it tests positive for nickel > - it is not slag (no vesicles, stony gray interior) > >I do not think this is a meteorite because the interior looks like >ingenious rock and I have not been able to find meteorite pictures >that look similar. > >So what I'm really trying to do is get a list of earth rocks together >that do contain nickel so that I can ID it off of one of them (and >ignore it in the future if I come across it again). I have read this >page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel and the samples on that >page, limonite, garnierite, pentlandite don't seem to match up with >what I have here. > >Here is a picture of the rock in question: > >http://www.mikesastrophotos.com/rocks/nickel-rock.jpg > >Thanks, > >Mike > > > > > >From University of Washington 'Gallery of meteor wrongs...' > >With a few rare and well known exceptions, naturally occurring >terrestrial rock do not contain iron metal or iron-nickel metal. There >are two reasons. First, early in Earth's history the iron-nickel metal >sank to form the Earth's core. Second, any metal that did not sink has >oxidized (rusted) over Earth's long history. The Earth's environment >is far more oxidizing (oxygen atmosphere and water) than space, where >meteorites originate. Earth rocks do contain iron and nickel, but only >in oxidized (non-metallic) form. Therefore, if you find a rock that >contains iron-nickel metal, it's probably a meteorite. That sounds >simple, but there are two problems. > >First, many people find slags and other by-products of metal >manufacturing. Some of the samples that have been brought to us may >have been from forges or blacksmith shops that are more than 100 years >old (see meteorwrongs 026, 027, 061, 065, 070, 075, 093, and 122). >Others appear to fall from the sky for unknown reasons (see Getafe). >Metal in slags and industrial by-products is mostly iron. Such >materials will probably contain little nickel (much less than 1%). So, >if you can determine that the sample has little or no nickel, then the >sample is not a meteorite. > >The second problem is that some minerals in terrestrial rocks look >like metal but are not. All that glitters is not metal. Many rocks >contain small grains of sulfide minerals like pyrite ("fool's gold") >or micas that are finely disseminated and shiny. I've had many people >tell me, "But, it contains metal!" when there really isn't any. Clue: >If there are shiny bits in it but it's not magnetic, it's not a >meteorite (Meteorite Realities). >______________________________________________ >http://www.meteoritecentral.com >Meteorite-list mailing list >Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Tue Nov 17 12:34:47 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:34:47 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons In-Reply-To: <4B02DACF.7050209@meteoritesusa.com> References: <4B02DACF.7050209@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: <002f01ca67ac$42bc8f50$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. Boguslavka: http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg Cabin Creek http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg Treysa http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg Sikhote-Alin http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html and so on. Cheers, Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Meteorites USA Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi all, With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not like the Sikhote. Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin meteorite? Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From cynapse at charter.net Tue Nov 17 12:42:34 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:42:34 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Info on Sikhote Alin's shrapnel In-Reply-To: <93aaac890911170349m508d1790te9e42cae85e9f3f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AF8766600EFCB60@cp-out8.libero.it> <20091116174627.FUG25.601699.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> <111720090440.4186.4B02293500049DE30000105A22218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0B0A9D000D0A0B@att.net> <93aaac890911170349m508d1790te9e42cae85e9f3f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I was under the impression (read it somewhere) that most modern=collected Sikhote-Alin fragments are rusty and are cleaned in rock tumblers. If so, could not that dull/round formerly sharp edges and make them look "melted"? From eric at meteoritesusa.com Tue Nov 17 12:48:22 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:48:22 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons In-Reply-To: <002f01ca67ac$42bc8f50$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> References: <4B02DACF.7050209@meteoritesusa.com> <002f01ca67ac$42bc8f50$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: <4B02E1E6.4010609@meteoritesusa.com> Hi Martin, Thank you for sharing... Those photos are a little too distant to see any detail... I can see it has a satin like, or velvety like surface, but a closeup of the surface detail is what I was looking for. Anyone? Those are gorgeous irons by the way! Regards, Eric Martin Altmann wrote: > Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. > > Boguslavka: > http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg > > Cabin Creek > http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg > > Treysa > http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg > > Sikhote-Alin > http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html > > and so on. > > Cheers, > Martin > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von > Meteorites USA > Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 > An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons > > Hi all, > > With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote > Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks > like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not > like the Sikhote. > > Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an > ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen > iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin > meteorite? > > Regards, > Eric Wichman > Meteorites USA > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Tue Nov 17 12:53:16 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:53:16 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons In-Reply-To: <4B02E1E6.4010609@meteoritesusa.com> References: <4B02DACF.7050209@meteoritesusa.com><002f01ca67ac$42bc8f50$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> <4B02E1E6.4010609@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: <003001ca67ae$d805a720$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> Well for close-ups you have to come to Vienna, the most beautiful display hall for meteorites on Earth - with a lot of iron falls. Best is, you're planning your visit to Ensiheim with a stop-over in Vienna before. :-) Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Meteorites USA Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:48 An: Martin Altmann Cc: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi Martin, Thank you for sharing... Those photos are a little too distant to see any detail... I can see it has a satin like, or velvety like surface, but a closeup of the surface detail is what I was looking for. Anyone? Those are gorgeous irons by the way! Regards, Eric Martin Altmann wrote: > Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. > > Boguslavka: > http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg > > Cabin Creek > http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg > > Treysa > http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg > > Sikhote-Alin > http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html > > and so on. > > Cheers, > Martin > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von > Meteorites USA > Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 > An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons > > Hi all, > > With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote > Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks > like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not > like the Sikhote. > > Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an > ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen > iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin > meteorite? > > Regards, > Eric Wichman > Meteorites USA > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From webbth1 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 17 12:47:32 2009 From: webbth1 at yahoo.com (Thomas Webb) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:47:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Leonids Meteor Picture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <846436.7211.qm@web56506.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Neat Mike! Thanks, Thomas --- On Tue, 11/17/09, Mike Hankey wrote: > From: Mike Hankey > Subject: [meteorite-list] Leonids Meteor Picture > To: "Global Meteor Observing Forum" , "meteoritelist" > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 11:47 AM > I captured a Leonids picture last > night! > > http://www.mikesastrophotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/leonoid.jpg > > At the time I was focused on Procyon and shooting > continuously and > waiting and watching. I saw a meteor radiate directly out > of Procyon > and was like NO WAY!? But I check the camera screen > and couldn't see > anything. I didn't realize I caught it until this morning > when I was > reviewing the pics. > > Its pretty faint, at the time my f ratio was jacked up at > f/5. I've > since lowered it and ordered a new lens that can do f/1.4. > > It was much brighter in person, its a little faint in the > pic. Still > really happy I caught it. > > For reference purposes: I was using a Canon 20D, piggy back > mounted on > my telescope with ISO 800, f/5 focal ratio and a 60 second > exposure. > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From michael at rocksfromspace.org Tue Nov 17 12:59:16 2009 From: michael at rocksfromspace.org (Michael Johnson) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:59:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons In-Reply-To: <002f01ca67ac$42bc8f50$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: <1225451981.688991258480756090.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> Good example of S-A: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30591991 at N04/2983976145/sizes/o/ Michael Johnson http://www.rocksfromspace.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Altmann" To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:34:47 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. Boguslavka: http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg Cabin Creek http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg Treysa http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg Sikhote-Alin http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html and so on. Cheers, Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Meteorites USA Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hi all, With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not like the Sikhote. Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin meteorite? Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From meteoriteman at comcast.net Tue Nov 17 13:12:39 2009 From: meteoriteman at comcast.net (meteoriteman at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:12:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [meteorite-list] Nickel test Message-ID: <658696184.3580981258481559729.JavaMail.root@sz0098a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Hi everyone, recently while testing some of my possible meteorites finds from the Park Forest strewnfield, I made an interesting discovery. I use the method described in the "Field Guide to Meteors and Meteorites" by Richard Norton, test method 2. I inadvertently left the specimen soaking in the distilled vinegar overnight. The next day when I poured in the ammonia, the liquid turned blue. If I add a drop of the dimethylglyoxime solution, the liquid will change color to red. My question is, is the dimethylglyoxime necessary? Seems that the blue color indicates the presents of nickel. Cheers, Jim K From freequarks at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 13:05:08 2009 From: freequarks at gmail.com (Dark Matter) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:05:08 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons In-Reply-To: <4B02DACF.7050209@meteoritesusa.com> References: <4B02DACF.7050209@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: <822da19a0911171005u63595f4dg2504e0684eb9019@mail.gmail.com> Hi Eric, Here are a few closeup pics of fusion crust on the iron named Bogou: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2009/august/Accretion_Desk.htm Best, Martin H. On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Meteorites USA wrote: > Hi all, > > With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote Alin > meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks like on > an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not like the > Sikhote. > > Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an ordinary > chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen iron > meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin meteorite? > > Regards, > Eric Wichman > Meteorites USA > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From illaenus at wp.pl Tue Nov 17 13:19:51 2009 From: illaenus at wp.pl (Tomasz Jakubowski) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:19:51 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons In-Reply-To: <1225451981.688991258480756090.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> References: <1225451981.688991258480756090.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> Message-ID: <4b02e947bcdee5.90745765@wp.pl> Hello, also good example of Sikhote : http://picasaweb.google.pl/illaenus/SikhoteAlin230grams# Kind Regards Tomek Jakubowski IMCA #2321 Dnia 17-11-2009 o godz. 18:59 Michael Johnson napisa?(a): > Good example of S-A: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/30591991 at N04/2983976145/sizes/o/ > > Michael Johnson > http://www.rocksfromspace.org > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martin Altmann" > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:34:47 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons > > Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. > > Boguslavka: > http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg > > Cabin Creek > http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg > > Treysa > http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg > > Sikhote-Alin > http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html > > and so on. > > Cheers, > Martin > > > -----Urspr??ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von > Meteorites USA > Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 > An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons > > Hi all, > > With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote > Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks > like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not > like the Sikhote. > > Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an > ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen > iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin > meteorite? > > Regards, > Eric Wichman > Meteorites USA > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ---------------------------------------------------- Zainwestuj pieni?dze w nieruchomo?ci w g?rach. Sprawd? najnowsze oferty w Zakopanem i okolicach - Kliknij: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=www.bachledanieruchomosci.pl&sid=913 From fujmon at mac.com Tue Nov 17 13:30:32 2009 From: fujmon at mac.com (Gary Fujihara) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:30:32 -1000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons In-Reply-To: <4b02e947bcdee5.90745765@wp.pl> References: <1225451981.688991258480756090.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> <4b02e947bcdee5.90745765@wp.pl> Message-ID: <7CEBEDC0-0275-4D53-868C-BAD079073587@mac.com> Aloha Tomek and Martin, what marvelous examples of fusion crust with flowlines on iron meteorites. Thank you for sharing those images with the list. *now if only I could get them to share their specimens with me* ;^) gary On Nov 17, 2009, at 8:19 AM, Tomasz Jakubowski wrote: > Hello, > also good example of Sikhote : > http://picasaweb.google.pl/illaenus/SikhoteAlin230grams# > > > Kind Regards > Tomek Jakubowski > IMCA #2321 > > Dnia 17-11-2009 o godz. 18:59 Michael Johnson napisa?(a): >> Good example of S-A: >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/30591991 at N04/2983976145/sizes/o/ >> >> Michael Johnson >> http://www.rocksfromspace.org >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Martin Altmann" >> To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:34:47 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons >> >> Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. >> >> Boguslavka: >> http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg >> >> Cabin Creek >> http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg >> >> Treysa >> http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg >> >> Sikhote-Alin >> http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html >> >> and so on. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> >> -----Urspr??ngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com >> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von >> Meteorites USA >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 >> An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons >> >> Hi all, >> >> With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote >> Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks >> like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not >> like the Sikhote. >> >> Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an >> ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen >> iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin >> meteorite? >> >> Regards, >> Eric Wichman >> Meteorites USA >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Zainwestuj pieni?dze w nieruchomo?ci w g?rach. > Sprawd? najnowsze oferty w Zakopanem i okolicach - Kliknij: > http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=www.bachledanieruchomosci.pl&sid=913 > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Gary Fujihara AstroDay Institute 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720 (808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com http://astroday.net From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 13:48:12 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:48:12 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Leonids Meteor Picture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike: Really cool.? Nice pic. Thanks for sharing. Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:47:47 -0500 > From: mike.hankey at gmail.com > To: meteorobs at meteorobs.org; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Leonids Meteor Picture > > I captured a Leonids picture last night! > > http://www.mikesastrophotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/leonoid.jpg > > At the time I was focused on Procyon and shooting continuously and > waiting and watching. I saw a meteor radiate directly out of Procyon > and was like NO WAY! But I check the camera screen and couldn't see > anything. I didn't realize I caught it until this morning when I was > reviewing the pics. > > Its pretty faint, at the time my f ratio was jacked up at f/5. I've > since lowered it and ordered a new lens that can do f/1.4. > > It was much brighter in person, its a little faint in the pic. Still > really happy I caught it. > > For reference purposes: I was using a Canon 20D, piggy back mounted on > my telescope with ISO 800, f/5 focal ratio and a 60 second exposure. > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From bernd.pauli at paulinet.de Tue Nov 17 13:47:58 2009 From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de (bernd.pauli at paulinet.de) Date: 17 Nov 2009 18:47:58 UT Subject: [meteorite-list] Earth rocks that contain nickel Message-ID: Randy kindly wrote: "I have some plots here of Ni concentrations in Earth rocks compared to meteorites...Note that many achondrites (HED, lunar, martian) have Ni in the range of terrestrial rocks. That's because they don't have (much) FeNi metal" http://meteorites.wustl.edu/metcomp/ni.htm Interestingly, this "trend" is also reflected in oxygen isotopic ratio plots, where the HEDs plot close to the TFL line and and Lunars plot on it. Just like in Randy's nickel plot, the SNCs plot slightly above the TFL line. Best wishes from rainy, Leonid-free Germany, Bernd To: korotev at wustl.edu meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Tue Nov 17 13:55:02 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:55:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Dawn Enters Asteroid Belt -- For Good Message-ID: <200911171855.nAHIt2wm025412@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/features.cfm?feature=2361 Dawn Enters Asteroid Belt -- For Good Jet Propulsion Laboratory November 13, 2009 ASTEROID BELT -- NASA's Dawn spacecraft re-entered our solar system's asteroid belt today, Nov. 13, and this time it will stay there. Dawn first entered the belt (whose lower boundary may be defined as the greatest distance Mars gets from the sun (249,230,000 kilometers, or 154,864,000 miles) in June 2008. It remained within the belt for 40 days before its carefully planned orbital path brought it below the asteroid belt's lower boundary. This time around, Dawn's flight path will remain above this hypothetical lower boundary for the rest of the mission and for the foreseeable future - Dawn will become the first human-made object to take up permanent residence in the asteroid belt. The mission of the 1,098-kilogram (2,421-pound) Dawn spacecraft is to reconnoiter Vesta and Ceres, the asteroid belt's two most massive inhabitants -- the asteroid Vesta and dwarf planet Ceres. The goal of this eight-year, 4.9-billion-kilometer (3-billion-mile) mission is to answer basic questions about the formation of planets in our solar system. NASA's unmanned Dawn spacecraft will be the first ever to orbit two planetary bodies on a single voyage. Dawn is 619 days away from arrival at its first celestial objective, asteroid Vesta. For more information on Dawn please visit: http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/ From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Tue Nov 17 13:57:56 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:57:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] NASA's Wise Gets Ready to Survey the Whole Sky Message-ID: <200911171857.nAHIvuT3026216@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> Nov. 17, 2009 J.D. Harrington Headquarters, Washington 202-358-5241 j.d.harrington at nasa.gov Whitney Clavin Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. 818-354-4673 whitney.clavin at jpl.nasa.gov RELEASE: 09-269 NASA'S WISE GETS READY TO SURVEY THE WHOLE SKY WASHINGTON -- NASA's Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer, or Wise, is chilled out, sporting a sunshade and getting ready to roll. NASA's newest spacecraft is scheduled to roll to the pad on Friday, Nov. 20, its last stop before launching into space to survey the entire sky in infrared light. Wise is scheduled to launch no earlier than 9:09 a.m. EST on Dec. 9 from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. It will circle Earth over the poles, scanning the entire sky one-and-a-half times in nine months. The mission will uncover hidden cosmic objects, including the coolest stars, dark asteroids and the most luminous galaxies. "The eyes of Wise are a vast improvement over those of past infrared surveys," said Edward "Ned" Wright, the principal investigator for the mission at UCLA. "We will find millions of objects that have never been seen before." The mission will map the entire sky at four infrared wavelengths with sensitivity hundreds to hundreds of thousands of times greater than its predecessors, cataloging hundreds of millions of objects. The data will serve as navigation charts for other missions, pointing them to the most interesting targets. NASA's Hubble and Spitzer Space Telescopes, the European Space Agency's Herschel Space Observatory, and NASA's upcoming Sofia and James Webb Space Telescope will follow up on Wise finds. "This is an exciting time for space telescopes," said Jon Morse, NASA's Astrophysics Division director at NASA Headquarters in Washington. "Many of the telescopes will work together, each contributing different pieces to some of the most intriguing puzzles in our universe." Visible light is just one slice of the universe's electromagnetic rainbow. Infrared light, which humans can't see, has longer wavelengths and is good for seeing objects that are cold, dusty or far away. In our solar system, Wise is expected to find hundreds of thousands of cool asteroids, including hundreds that pass relatively close to Earth's path. Wise's infrared measurements will provide better estimates of asteroid sizes and compositions -- important information for understanding more about potentially hazardous impacts on Earth. "With infrared, we can find the dark asteroids other surveys have missed and learn about the whole population. Are they mostly big, small, fluffy or hard?" said Peter Eisenhardt, the Wise project scientist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif. Wise also will find the coolest of the "failed" stars or brown dwarfs. Scientists speculate it is possible that a cool star lurks right under our noses, closer to us than our nearest known star, Proxima Centauri, which is four light-years away. If so, Wise will easily pick up its glow. The mission also will spot dusty nests of stars and swirling planet-forming disks, and may find the most luminous galaxy in the universe. To sense the infrared glow of stars and galaxies, the Wise spacecraft cannot give off any detectable infrared light of its own. This is accomplished by chilling the telescope and detectors to ultra-cold temperatures. The coldest of Wise's detectors will operate at below 8 Kelvin, or minus 445 Fahrenheit. "Wise is chilled out," said William Irace, the project manager at JPL. "We've finished freezing the hydrogen that fills two tanks surrounding the science instrument. We're ready to explore the universe in infrared." JPL manages Wise for NASA's Science Mission Directorate in Washington. The mission was competitively selected under NASA's Explorers Program managed by the Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md. The science instrument was built by the Space Dynamics Laboratory in Logan, Utah, and the spacecraft was built by Ball Aerospace & Technologies Corp. in Boulder, Colo. Science operations and data processing take place at the Infrared Processing and Analysis Center at the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena. More information about the Wise mission is available online at: http://www.nasa.gov/wise -end- From michael at rocksfromspace.org Tue Nov 17 14:19:20 2009 From: michael at rocksfromspace.org (Michael Johnson) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:19:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Puerto Lapice update Message-ID: <1607370730.710341258485560201.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/puerto_lapice_spain_meteorite_hunt.html From grf2 at comcast.net Tue Nov 17 14:22:25 2009 From: grf2 at comcast.net (Jerry Flaherty) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:22:25 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons References: <4B02DACF.7050209@meteoritesusa.com> <822da19a0911171005u63595f4dg2504e0684eb9019@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1E01CC437D814A1FAE0E26F31F865641@ASUS> Best examples I've yet to see. Thanks for the tutorial -------------------------------------------------- From: "Dark Matter" Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 1:05 PM To: "Meteorites USA" Cc: Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons > Hi Eric, > > Here are a few closeup pics of fusion crust on the iron named Bogou: > > http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2009/august/Accretion_Desk.htm > > Best, > > Martin H. > > > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Meteorites USA > wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote Alin >> meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks like >> on >> an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not like the >> Sikhote. >> >> Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an >> ordinary >> chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen iron >> meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin >> meteorite? >> >> Regards, >> Eric Wichman >> Meteorites USA >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 14:30:27 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:30:27 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Kansas father, son suspect meteorite landed in backyard of their Liberal home Message-ID: List: Anyone hear about this story? Or is anyone in the area? Greg S. http://www.fox4kc.com/news/sns-ap-ks--meteoritelands,0,7509187.story Kansas father, son suspect meteorite landed in backyard of their Liberal home By Associated Press 4:01 AM CST, November 17, 2009 LIBERAL, Kan. (AP) ? A father and son have an extraterrestrial explanation for the strange rock that recently landed in their backyard in southwest Kansas. They are convinced it's a meteorite. Ten-year-old Chandler Harp was playing in the backyard of his Liberal home when he heard what sounded like an explosion about 15 feet from where he was standing. He looked over to see a plume of dirt and debris shoot 5 feet high. At the bottom of a foot-deep hole, he found a 2-inch rock and showed it to his dad, Lee. Once Lee Harp got a look at the metallic rock, he was certain it wasn't from this world. He says, "I knew he had a meteorite." _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ From m_graul at yahoo.de Tue Nov 17 14:28:06 2009 From: m_graul at yahoo.de (Mirko Graul) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:28:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [meteorite-list] Puerto Lapice update In-Reply-To: <1607370730.710341258485560201.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> Message-ID: <383608.44894.qm@web26306.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi Michael and List, wow,congratulations to Robert?s stone of 16grams !! Incredible !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Many greetings Mirko Mirko Graul Meteorite Quittenring.4 16321 Bernau GERMANY Phone: 0049-1724105015 E-Mail: m_graul at yahoo.de WEB: www.meteorite-mirko.de Member of The Meteoritical Society (International Society for Meteoritics and Planetery Science) IMCA-Member: 2113 (International Meteorite Collectors Association) --- Michael Johnson schrieb am Di, 17.11.2009: > Von: Michael Johnson > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Puerto Lapice update > An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Datum: Dienstag, 17. November 2009, 20:19 > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/puerto_lapice_spain_meteorite_hunt.html > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verf?gt ?ber einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. http://mail.yahoo.com From schraderj at rocketmail.com Tue Nov 17 14:28:18 2009 From: schraderj at rocketmail.com (Jack Schrader) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:28:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Puerto Lapice update In-Reply-To: <1607370730.710341258485560201.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> References: <1607370730.710341258485560201.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> Message-ID: <239136.28343.qm@web111012.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Way to go Robert!? Gorgeous stone........Good luck to the rest of the Puerto Lapice team in the coming days!? Jack ----- Original Message ---- From: Michael Johnson To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 12:19:20 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Puerto Lapice update http://www.rocksfromspace.org/puerto_lapice_spain_meteorite_hunt.html ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From eric at meteoritesusa.com Tue Nov 17 14:38:20 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:38:20 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons In-Reply-To: <4b02e947bcdee5.90745765@wp.pl> References: <1225451981.688991258480756090.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> <4b02e947bcdee5.90745765@wp.pl> Message-ID: <4B02FBAC.1070004@meteoritesusa.com> Thank you ALL! Martin, Tomasz, Michael, List, Fabulous! Exactly what I was looking for... Thank you for sharing! Those are perfect examples of fusion crusted irons, and some of the most beautiful meteorites I've seen. I'm sure everyone agrees, those are gorgeous! It really gives you a good idea of what they look like. It looks completely different than a freshly fallen chondrite. Regards, Eric Tomasz Jakubowski wrote: > Hello, > also good example of Sikhote : > http://picasaweb.google.pl/illaenus/SikhoteAlin230grams# > > > Kind Regards > Tomek Jakubowski > IMCA #2321 > > Dnia 17-11-2009 o godz. 18:59 Michael Johnson napisa?(a): > >> Good example of S-A: >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/30591991 at N04/2983976145/sizes/o/ >> >> Michael Johnson >> http://www.rocksfromspace.org >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Martin Altmann" >> To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:34:47 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons >> >> Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. >> >> Boguslavka: >> http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg >> >> Cabin Creek >> http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg >> >> Treysa >> http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg >> >> Sikhote-Alin >> http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html >> >> and so on. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> >> -----Urspr??ngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com >> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von >> Meteorites USA >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 >> An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons >> >> Hi all, >> >> With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote >> Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks >> like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not >> like the Sikhote. >> >> Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an >> ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen >> iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin >> meteorite? >> >> Regards, >> Eric Wichman >> Meteorites USA >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Zainwestuj pieni?dze w nieruchomo?ci w g?rach. > Sprawd? najnowsze oferty w Zakopanem i okolicach - Kliknij: > http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=www.bachledanieruchomosci.pl&sid=913 > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > From eric at meteoritesusa.com Tue Nov 17 14:41:14 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:41:14 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Puerto Lapice update In-Reply-To: <1607370730.710341258485560201.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> References: <1607370730.710341258485560201.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> Message-ID: <4B02FC5A.3030308@meteoritesusa.com> Awesome! Great job Robert, Happy birthday! Keep it up guys... Regards, Eric Michael Johnson wrote: > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/puerto_lapice_spain_meteorite_hunt.html > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 14:45:03 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:45:03 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Puerto Lapice update In-Reply-To: <1607370730.710341258485560201.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> References: <1607370730.710341258485560201.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> Message-ID: You gotta love that fusion crust... amazing. Congratulations to the team there. Well it's like Bob Haag always said, "you find meteorites where they have been found before."? Something like that. Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:19:20 -0800 > From: michael at rocksfromspace.org > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Puerto Lapice update > > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/puerto_lapice_spain_meteorite_hunt.html > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 From debfred at att.net Tue Nov 17 15:08:45 2009 From: debfred at att.net (debfred at att.net) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:08:45 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Info on Sikhote Alin's shrapnel In-Reply-To: References: <4AF8766600EFCB60@cp-out8.libero.it><20091116174627.FUG25.601699.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com><111720090440.4186.4B02293500049DE30000105A22218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0B0A9D000D0A0B@att.net><93aaac890911170349m508d1790te9e42cae85e9f3f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <111720092008.3347.4B0302CD0004077800000D1322243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF0B0A9D000D0A0B@att.net> Darren, I just looked at 119 individual pieces of shrapnel fragments under a microscope. They are rather small and range in size from 30 grams to less than one gram. It looks to me that every one of them shows some feature of melting. many have roll over rims, melted grooves, fusion crust with impact pits, bubbly crust on backside of oriented pieces. I doubt that any of these features were produced by tumbling. Regards, Fred -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Darren Garrison > > I was under the impression (read it somewhere) that most modern=collected > Sikhote-Alin fragments are rusty and are cleaned in rock tumblers. If so, could > not that dull/round formerly sharp edges and make them look "melted"? > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From grf2 at comcast.net Tue Nov 17 15:27:03 2009 From: grf2 at comcast.net (Jerry Flaherty) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:27:03 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons References: <1225451981.688991258480756090.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> Message-ID: <4948D4B0A34A405AA072F994E50A0731@ASUS> yes indeedy -------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Johnson" Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:59 PM To: "Martin Altmann" Cc: Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons > Good example of S-A: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/30591991 at N04/2983976145/sizes/o/ > > Michael Johnson > http://www.rocksfromspace.org > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martin Altmann" > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:34:47 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons > > Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. > > Boguslavka: > http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg > > Cabin Creek > http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg > > Treysa > http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg > > Sikhote-Alin > http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html > > and so on. > > Cheers, > Martin > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von > Meteorites USA > Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 > An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons > > Hi all, > > With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote > Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks > like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not > like the Sikhote. > > Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an > ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen > iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin > meteorite? > > Regards, > Eric Wichman > Meteorites USA > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 15:55:39 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:55:39 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite Message-ID: List: Does anyone have of know (where) I can download a picture of a K-chondrite; preferable with the fusion crust. Thanks, Greg S. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From bernd.pauli at paulinet.de Tue Nov 17 16:12:36 2009 From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de (bernd.pauli at paulinet.de) Date: 17 Nov 2009 21:12:36 UT Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite Message-ID: Hi Greg and List, Hardly any photos of Kakangaris exist. You'll find one on David Weir's excellent website: http://www.meteoritestudies.com/ Click on chondrites and then scroll down to Kakangari! Thin section pics of Kakangari can be found here (on pages 202-205): D.S. LAURETTA, M. KILLGORE (2005) A Color Atlas of Meteorites in Thin Section (Golden Retriever Publications and Southwest Meteorite Press, ISBN 0-9720472-1-2, 301 pp.). Best wishes, Bernd From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Tue Nov 17 18:10:34 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:10:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Puerto Lapice update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <526397.9869.qm@web46403.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Awesome find, good luck out there. Look forward to more updates. Greg C. PS, Sorry Greg S... sent it to you instead! --- On Tue, 11/17/09, Greg Stanley wrote: > From: Greg Stanley > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Puerto Lapice update > To: michael at rocksfromspace.org, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 2:45 PM > > You gotta love that fusion crust... amazing. > > Congratulations to the team there. > > Well it's like Bob Haag always said, "you find meteorites > where they have been found before."? Something like that. > > Greg S. > > ---------------------------------------- > > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:19:20 -0800 > > From: michael at rocksfromspace.org > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Subject: [meteorite-list] Puerto Lapice update > > > > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/puerto_lapice_spain_meteorite_hunt.html > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ??? > ???????? > ?????? ??? > ? > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock > star. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From gmhupe at htn.net Tue Nov 17 18:31:02 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:31:02 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Moon, Mars, Unclassified, Minerals, Fossils - AD Message-ID: <5EA7AE49859344A6A758C189CCAEEA77@Gregor> Dear List Members, "Late Spring Cleaning, I need to make room for more!!!" ~ Another week and another assortment of goodies to ponder. Starting tomorrow (Wednesday, Nov. 18th) I have a number of planetary and other ultra-rare meteorites ending on eBay. In addition to these, I have several Unclassified Saharan stones, A peculiar Lot of Sahara rocks, Natural stones and minerals from different destinations, and if you like fossils, check out what I am clearing off of my countertops and tables, bulk lots first then better individuals. More meteorites to be added as the days go by... especially tomorrow night! If you are not interested in fossils or non-meteoritic material, please wade through the auctions as everything go a little mixed up when I loaded some 5-Day auctions last week! Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault Have fun checking out the material, and Good Luck winning what you are after!! Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault From meteoritekid at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 18:44:44 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:44:44 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons In-Reply-To: <4948D4B0A34A405AA072F994E50A0731@ASUS> References: <1225451981.688991258480756090.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> <4948D4B0A34A405AA072F994E50A0731@ASUS> Message-ID: <93aaac890911171544p7f7d4cf0s9c4542283ec7d645@mail.gmail.com> Hey, Here's another Sikhote to compare - http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/2335664239/sizes/l/ Regards, Jason On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Jerry Flaherty wrote: > yes indeedy > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Michael Johnson" > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:59 PM > To: "Martin Altmann" > Cc: > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons > >> Good example of S-A: >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/30591991 at N04/2983976145/sizes/o/ >> >> Michael Johnson >> http://www.rocksfromspace.org >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Martin Altmann" >> To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:34:47 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons >> >> Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. >> >> Boguslavka: >> http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg >> >> Cabin Creek >> http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg >> >> Treysa >> http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg >> >> Sikhote-Alin >> http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html >> >> and so on. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> >> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com >> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von >> Meteorites USA >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 >> An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons >> >> Hi all, >> >> With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote >> Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks >> like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not >> like the Sikhote. >> >> Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an >> ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen >> iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin >> meteorite? >> >> Regards, >> Eric Wichman >> Meteorites USA >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteoritekid at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 18:53:15 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:53:15 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Info on Sikhote Alin's shrapnel In-Reply-To: <111720092008.3347.4B0302CD0004077800000D1322243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF0B0A9D000D0A0B@att.net> References: <4AF8766600EFCB60@cp-out8.libero.it> <20091116174627.FUG25.601699.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> <111720090440.4186.4B02293500049DE30000105A22218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0B0A9D000D0A0B@att.net> <93aaac890911170349m508d1790te9e42cae85e9f3f8@mail.gmail.com> <111720092008.3347.4B0302CD0004077800000D1322243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF0B0A9D000D0A0B@att.net> Message-ID: <93aaac890911171553m7c5e4108w83748b0006c2c519@mail.gmail.com> Maurizio, Graham, Jeff, Fred, Darren, All, I think Darren's hit on the fact of it - as I noted in my original post: "Many batches of shrapnel do appear to be somewhat ablated due to the method by which they have been cleaned (tumbling with ball bearings tends to wear corners down and gives the false impression of surfaces having melted)." I think this is what you're noting, Fred - if you'd care to send some pictures I'd be more than glad to have a look, but I'm fairly certain that what you're seeing are mere remnants of the cleaning process. Which isn't to say that shrapnel can't exhibit folded over rims, etc, but such features are morphologically distinct from roll-over lipping that we see in fusion crusts; it's one thing to fold a torn edge over, and another matter entirely to force molten material over an edge to form a lip. I can't comment on the other features you've noted without seeing pictures, but I would note that many Sikhotes exhibit crater-like features that formed due to spallation caused by rust, which could also be mistaken for bubbling. I have only ever seen true bubbles on one Sikhote (and it is the only *iron* meteorite that I've ever seen that actually showed true bubbles) in my entire life; here's a photo. http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/2335708513/sizes/l/ Regards, Jason On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:08 PM, wrote: > ?Darren, I just looked at 119 individual pieces of shrapnel fragments under a microscope. They are rather small and range in size from 30 grams to less than one gram. It looks to me that every one of them shows some feature of melting. many have roll over rims, melted grooves, fusion crust with impact pits, bubbly crust on backside of oriented pieces. I doubt that any of these features were produced by tumbling. > Regards, Fred > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: Darren Garrison >> >> I was under the impression (read it somewhere) that most modern=collected >> Sikhote-Alin fragments are rusty and are cleaned in rock tumblers. ?If so, could >> not that dull/round formerly sharp edges and make them look "melted"? >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteoritekid at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 18:58:34 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:58:34 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Kansas father, son suspect meteorite landed in backyard of their Liberal home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93aaac890911171558k4fe24308le96d0104d021b2a9@mail.gmail.com> Hello All, A '2-inch' meteorite just made a 1 foot deep hole? Well, I suppose the rock could be a meteorite - I wasn't able to find any pictures online - but it sure sounds like the kid is lying about the impact and the hole it made, unless it landed in a pile of soft sand. That's just too big of a hole for too small of a rock. Regards, Jason On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:30 AM, Greg Stanley wrote: > > List: > > Anyone hear about this story? Or is anyone in the area? > > Greg S. > > > http://www.fox4kc.com/news/sns-ap-ks--meteoritelands,0,7509187.story > > > Kansas father, son suspect meteorite landed in backyard of their Liberal home > > By Associated Press > > 4:01 AM CST, November 17, 2009 > > LIBERAL, Kan. (AP) ? A father and son have an extraterrestrial explanation for the strange rock that recently landed in their backyard in southwest Kansas. > > They are convinced it's a meteorite. > > Ten-year-old Chandler Harp was playing in the backyard of his Liberal home when he heard what sounded like an explosion about 15 feet from where he was standing. He looked over to see a plume of dirt and debris shoot 5 feet high. > > At the bottom of a foot-deep hole, he found a 2-inch rock and showed it to his dad, Lee. > > Once Lee Harp got a look at the metallic rock, he was certain it wasn't from this world. He says, "I knew he had a meteorite." > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From drtanuki at yahoo.com Tue Nov 17 19:12:52 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:12:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Younger Dryas mini ice age Message-ID: <501489.2734.qm@web53104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear List, A newly published paper on the Younger Dryas mini ice age. Mini ice age took hold of Europe in months * 11 November 2009 by Kate Ravilious * Magazine issue 2734. Subscribe and get 4 free issues. * For similar stories, visit the Climate Change Topic Guide JUST months - that's how long it took for Europe to be engulfed by an ice age. The scenario, which comes straight out of Hollywood blockbuster The Day After Tomorrow, was revealed by the most precise record of the climate from palaeohistory ever generated. Around 12,800 years ago the northern hemisphere was hit by the Younger Dryas mini ice age, or "Big Freeze". It was triggered by the slowdown of the Gulf Stream, led to the decline of the Clovis culture in North America, and lasted around 1300 years. ... http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427344.800-mini-ice-age-took-hold-of-europe-in-months.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=environment Dirk Ross...Tokyo From lintonius at earthlink.net Tue Nov 17 19:56:58 2009 From: lintonius at earthlink.net (Linton Rohr) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:56:58 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons References: <1225451981.688991258480756090.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com><4948D4B0A34A405AA072F994E50A0731@ASUS> <93aaac890911171544p7f7d4cf0s9c4542283ec7d645@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <36C8FACC7BCC4552AE5EB4EB1D6194DC@D190TH71> Ooooooh...very nice detail, Jason! Linton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Utas" To: "Meteorite-list" Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons Hey, Here's another Sikhote to compare - http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/2335664239/sizes/l/ Regards, Jason On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Jerry Flaherty wrote: > yes indeedy > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Michael Johnson" > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:59 PM > To: "Martin Altmann" > Cc: > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons > >> Good example of S-A: >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/30591991 at N04/2983976145/sizes/o/ >> >> Michael Johnson >> http://www.rocksfromspace.org >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Martin Altmann" >> To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:34:47 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons >> >> Fat, dull, rough, dark-grey to dark-brown. >> >> Boguslavka: >> http://www.fmm.ru/metpictures/bogus.jpg >> >> Cabin Creek >> http://www.austromet.com/Museum_24082005_07.jpg >> >> Treysa >> http://www.gi-po.de/meteorit_treysa_1g.jpg >> >> Sikhote-Alin >> http://www.spacerocksinc.com/Dec1.html >> >> and so on. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> >> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com >> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von >> Meteorites USA >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 18:18 >> An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons >> >> Hi all, >> >> With all the talk about melting and twisting of metal on the Sikhote >> Alin meteorite it got me to wondering what very fresh fusion crust looks >> like on an iron meteorite. I mean like the day it fell fresh, and not >> like the Sikhote. >> >> Everyone here pretty much knows what fresh crust looks like on an >> ordinary chondrite, but are there any example photos of freshly fallen >> iron meteorites with very fresh fusion crust beside the Sikhote Alin >> meteorite? >> >> Regards, >> Eric Wichman >> Meteorites USA >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Tue Nov 17 20:10:13 2009 From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com (ensoramanda at ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 1:10:13 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Info on Sikhote Alin's shrapnel In-Reply-To: <93aaac890911171553m7c5e4108w83748b0006c2c519@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091118011013.0UA10.907027.root@web02-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Amazing piece with bubbles Jason, Been trying to figure out how that could happen. It does not look like it happened due to melt during the fall but more like a feature from pre-entry, exposed after fragmenting. What are your thoughts...I can't think of any other irons with bubbles. Regards Graham ---- Jason Utas wrote: > Maurizio, Graham, Jeff, Fred, Darren, All, > I think Darren's hit on the fact of it - as I noted in my original post: > > "Many batches of shrapnel do appear to be somewhat ablated due to the > method by which they have been cleaned (tumbling with ball bearings > tends to wear corners down and gives the false impression of surfaces > having melted)." > > I think this is what you're noting, Fred - if you'd care to send some > pictures I'd be more than glad to have a look, but I'm fairly certain > that what you're seeing are mere remnants of the cleaning process. > Which isn't to say that shrapnel can't exhibit folded over rims, etc, > but such features are morphologically distinct from roll-over lipping > that we see in fusion crusts; it's one thing to fold a torn edge over, > and another matter entirely to force molten material over an edge to > form a lip. > I can't comment on the other features you've noted without seeing > pictures, but I would note that many Sikhotes exhibit crater-like > features that formed due to spallation caused by rust, which could > also be mistaken for bubbling. > I have only ever seen true bubbles on one Sikhote (and it is the only > *iron* meteorite that I've ever seen that actually showed true > bubbles) in my entire life; here's a photo. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/2335708513/sizes/l/ > > Regards, > Jason > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:08 PM, wrote: > > ?Darren, I just looked at 119 individual pieces of shrapnel fragments under a microscope. They are rather small and range in size from 30 grams to less than one gram. It looks to me that every one of them shows some feature of melting. many have roll over rims, melted grooves, fusion crust with impact pits, bubbly crust on backside of oriented pieces. I doubt that any of these features were produced by tumbling. > > Regards, Fred > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > From: Darren Garrison > >> > >> I was under the impression (read it somewhere) that most modern=collected > >> Sikhote-Alin fragments are rusty and are cleaned in rock tumblers. ?If so, could > >> not that dull/round formerly sharp edges and make them look "melted"? > >> ______________________________________________ > >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From wahlperry at aol.com Tue Nov 17 21:12:42 2009 From: wahlperry at aol.com (wahlperry at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:12:42 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite / Could this be one of the rarest meteorites found? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC360BBE632691-5570-2D48@webmail-m008.sysops.aol.com> Hi Bernd and list, Would this be one of the rarest meteorites ever found? If not, what meteorite would be? Thanks, Sonny -----Original Message----- From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tue, Nov 17, 2009 1:12 pm Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite Hi Greg and List, Hardly any photos of Kakangaris exist. You'll find one on David Weir's excellent website: http://www.meteoritestudies.com/ Click on chondrites and then scroll down to Kakangari! Thin section pics of Kakangari can be found here (on pages 202-205): D.S. LAURETTA, M. KILLGORE (2005) A Color Atlas of Meteorites in Thin Section (Golden Retriever Publications and Southwest Meteorite Press, ISBN 0-9720472-1-2, 301 pp.). Best wishes, Bernd ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From meteoritekid at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 21:32:35 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:32:35 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite / Could this be one of the rarest meteorites found? In-Reply-To: <8CC360BBE632691-5570-2D48@webmail-m008.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC360BBE632691-5570-2D48@webmail-m008.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <93aaac890911171832t1247e9eet1cd03b02bd686425@mail.gmail.com> Hello Sonny, All, I've often thought about such a term - "the rarest meteorite." The rarest meteorite would of course be smallest ungrouped meteorite, for one could feasibly conceive of a 1-2g unique meteorite. When a new type is named, however, a hype generally surrounds it - rather like the olivine diogenite craze of a few years ago, or the confusion surrounding Bencubbinites, and other poorly defined types of meteorites. The simple fact of the matter is that there meteorites are too often categorized by our current system into associations and groups into which they fit rather poorly; Jeff Grossman states as much in the last thread surrounding the poor chemical and isotopic relationships between many basaltic meteorites deemed "eucrites." But regardless of this fact, a simple truth remains. There are countless ungrouped meteorites and several Kakangari-type meteorites, so while they may be one of the least common "types," they are by no means examples of the "rarest" meteorite known. Regards, Jason On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 6:12 PM, wrote: > Hi Bernd and list, > > ?Would this be one of the rarest meteorites ever found? If not, what > meteorite would be? > > Thanks, > Sonny > > > -----Original Message----- > From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Sent: Tue, Nov 17, 2009 1:12 pm > Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite > > > > > > > > Hi Greg and List, > > Hardly any photos of Kakangaris exist. You'll find one on David > Weir's excellent website: http://www.meteoritestudies.com/ > > Click on chondrites and then scroll down to Kakangari! > > Thin section pics of Kakangari can be found here (on pages 202-205): > > D.S. LAURETTA, M. KILLGORE (2005) A Color Atlas of Meteorites in Thin > Section > (Golden Retriever Publications and Southwest Meteorite Press, ISBN > 0-9720472-1-2, 301 pp.). > > > Best wishes, > > Bernd > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteoritekid at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 21:49:32 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:49:32 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Info on Sikhote Alin's shrapnel In-Reply-To: <20091118011013.0UA10.907027.root@web02-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> References: <93aaac890911171553m7c5e4108w83748b0006c2c519@mail.gmail.com> <20091118011013.0UA10.907027.root@web02-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Message-ID: <93aaac890911171849y2608a737s409aff1ef6ca42d4@mail.gmail.com> Hello Graham, All, Well, there's always Albion, though that's quite a different beast. I believe the druzy vugs found in that are accepted to be a product of impact melting, as per Buchwald. By the look of the specimen, I think it's safe to say that the bubbles are the result of an accumulation of melt on the rear of a specimen that maintained a stable flight for an extended period of time - much as stony meteorites do, but for a longer period of time than is commonly seen. Here's a link to the first photo of the stone in my album: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/2335700193/in/photostream/ To see the rest, just look at the pictures on the right and click on the following photos.. Regards, Jason On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 5:10 PM, wrote: > Amazing piece with bubbles Jason, > > Been trying to figure out how that could happen. It does not look like it happened due to melt during the fall but more like a feature from pre-entry, exposed after fragmenting. > > What are your thoughts...I can't think of any other irons with bubbles. > > Regards > > Graham > > ---- Jason Utas wrote: >> Maurizio, Graham, Jeff, Fred, Darren, All, >> I think Darren's hit on the fact of it - as I noted in my original post: >> >> "Many batches of shrapnel do appear to be somewhat ablated due to the >> method by which they have been cleaned (tumbling with ball bearings >> tends to wear corners down and gives the false impression of surfaces >> having melted)." >> >> I think this is what you're noting, Fred - if you'd care to send some >> pictures I'd be more than glad to have a look, but I'm fairly certain >> that what you're seeing are mere remnants of the cleaning process. >> Which isn't to say that shrapnel can't exhibit folded over rims, etc, >> but such features are morphologically distinct from roll-over lipping >> that we see in fusion crusts; it's one thing to fold a torn edge over, >> and another matter entirely to force molten material over an edge to >> form a lip. >> I can't comment on the other features you've noted without seeing >> pictures, but I would note that many Sikhotes exhibit crater-like >> features that formed due to spallation caused by rust, which could >> also be mistaken for bubbling. >> I have only ever seen true bubbles on one Sikhote (and it is the only >> *iron* meteorite that I've ever seen that actually showed true >> bubbles) in my entire life; here's a photo. >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/2335708513/sizes/l/ >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> >> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:08 PM, ? wrote: >> > ?Darren, I just looked at 119 individual pieces of shrapnel fragments under a microscope. They are rather small and range in size from 30 grams to less than one gram. It looks to me that every one of them shows some feature of melting. many have roll over rims, melted grooves, fusion crust with impact pits, bubbly crust on backside of oriented pieces. I doubt that any of these features were produced by tumbling. >> > Regards, Fred >> > -------------- Original message ---------------------- >> > From: Darren Garrison >> >> >> >> I was under the impression (read it somewhere) that most modern=collected >> >> Sikhote-Alin fragments are rusty and are cleaned in rock tumblers. ?If so, could >> >> not that dull/round formerly sharp edges and make them look "melted"? >> >> ______________________________________________ >> >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ______________________________________________ >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > From eric at meteoritesusa.com Tue Nov 17 22:17:19 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:17:19 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite / Could this be one of the rarest meteorites found? In-Reply-To: <93aaac890911171832t1247e9eet1cd03b02bd686425@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC360BBE632691-5570-2D48@webmail-m008.sysops.aol.com> <93aaac890911171832t1247e9eet1cd03b02bd686425@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B03673F.7050400@meteoritesusa.com> Jason, list, Maybe I don't quite understand... ;) The size of an individual meteorite whether ungrouped or even a previously unknown type or new classification would not be the deciding factor in determining rarity at all would it? If of course you consider the major factor concerning rarity to be the number of stones or TKW, and you don't slice or break up the specimen, then a 1 ton stone could of course be the rarest type in existence if it were in fact of some previously unknown or ungrouped type right? The same could be said if no one had access to that 1 ton specimen. Technically speaking distribution and access to material is also a determining factor of the rarity of a meteorite. The term "rarest meteorite" does not quite depend on type or class alone. So yes I would agree that you're right, if type were the only factor involved, then your 1-2g specimen of an ungrouped type it would be the rarest meteorite. But consider the Willamette meteorite, or the Old Woman meteorite. They are both irons, and of a common class, but the distribution of that particular material in private and university collections makes it rare doesn't it? Obviously I'm splitting hairs... Maybe it's more about the meaning of the phrase "the rarest meteorite" than the actual rarity of the meteorite type class. Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA Jason Utas wrote: > Hello Sonny, All, > I've often thought about such a term - "the rarest meteorite." > The rarest meteorite would of course be smallest ungrouped meteorite, > for one could feasibly conceive of a 1-2g unique meteorite. When a > new type is named, however, a hype generally surrounds it - rather > like the olivine diogenite craze of a few years ago, or the confusion > surrounding Bencubbinites, and other poorly defined types of > meteorites. > The simple fact of the matter is that there meteorites are too often > categorized by our current system into associations and groups into > which they fit rather poorly; Jeff Grossman states as much in the last > thread surrounding the poor chemical and isotopic relationships > between many basaltic meteorites deemed "eucrites." > But regardless of this fact, a simple truth remains. There are > countless ungrouped meteorites and several Kakangari-type meteorites, > so while they may be one of the least common "types," they are by no > means examples of the "rarest" meteorite known. > Regards, > Jason > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 6:12 PM, wrote: > >> Hi Bernd and list, >> >> Would this be one of the rarest meteorites ever found? If not, what >> meteorite would be? >> >> Thanks, >> Sonny >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de >> To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Sent: Tue, Nov 17, 2009 1:12 pm >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi Greg and List, >> >> Hardly any photos of Kakangaris exist. You'll find one on David >> Weir's excellent website: http://www.meteoritestudies.com/ >> >> Click on chondrites and then scroll down to Kakangari! >> >> Thin section pics of Kakangari can be found here (on pages 202-205): >> >> D.S. LAURETTA, M. KILLGORE (2005) A Color Atlas of Meteorites in Thin >> Section >> (Golden Retriever Publications and Southwest Meteorite Press, ISBN >> 0-9720472-1-2, 301 pp.). >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Bernd >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > From meteoritekid at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 22:34:29 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:34:29 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite / Could this be one of the rarest meteorites found? In-Reply-To: <4B03673F.7050400@meteoritesusa.com> References: <8CC360BBE632691-5570-2D48@webmail-m008.sysops.aol.com> <93aaac890911171832t1247e9eet1cd03b02bd686425@mail.gmail.com> <4B03673F.7050400@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: <93aaac890911171934l4f7ed4d1iad78e2070d184360@mail.gmail.com> Hola Eric, All, You're only talking about collector availability, which is a kind of skewed way of looking at things, in my opinion. I'm talking about rarity in the sense of how much of a given material is known, "material" being the term for meteoric matter of a given structure and chemical composition that we can distinguish as different from other meteoric matter of differing structures and compositions. I hesitate to use the word "type" above because, as has been noted, the types that we have assigned meteorites are in many cases far too inclusive or exclusive as to be a truly accurate judge of such associations. There are over two hundred Eucrites, and yet Ibitira is unique. And a Eucrite. It's a bit of an issue. In other words, my "rare" applies to how much of 'something' we know exists, whereas your "rare" applies to how much is available to collectors. In my opinion, my usage of the word is more valid; according to your definition, my NWA xxxx L6 of which I hold the entire mass (and will never sell any) is indeed the "rarest" meteorite on the planet, along with countless other common stones. It is also significantly more "rare" than Kakangari, which is distributed amongst museums worldwide, and which is owned by numerous collectors. My L6 is also more "rare" than the "rare" meteorites you mention - both Willamette and Old Woman; if I wanted to, I could procure a specimen of each of those meteorites, whereas no one other than myself will ever own even a milligram of my NWA xxxx L6. When I use the word "rare," it actually means that something is uncommon or exists in limited quantity, as opposed to its being simply inaccessible to a group of people, whomever that group may be. It's just less subjective. Regards, Jason On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 7:17 PM, Meteorites USA wrote: > Jason, list, > > Maybe I don't quite understand... ;) The size of an individual meteorite > whether ungrouped or even a previously unknown type or new classification > would not be the deciding factor in determining rarity at all would it? > > If of course you consider the major factor concerning rarity to be the > number of stones or TKW, and you don't slice or break up the specimen, then > a 1 ton stone could of course be the rarest type in existence if it were in > fact of some previously unknown or ungrouped type right? The same could be > said if no one had access to that 1 ton specimen. > > Technically speaking distribution and access to material is also a > determining factor of the rarity of a meteorite. The term "rarest meteorite" > does not quite depend on type or class alone. > > So yes I would agree that you're right, if type were the only factor > involved, then your 1-2g specimen of an ungrouped type it would be the > rarest meteorite. > > But consider the Willamette meteorite, or the Old Woman meteorite. They are > both irons, and of a common class, but the distribution of that particular > material in private and university collections makes it rare doesn't it? > > Obviously I'm splitting hairs... Maybe it's more about the meaning of the > phrase "the rarest meteorite" than the actual rarity of the meteorite type > class. > > Regards, > Eric Wichman > Meteorites USA > > > > > > Jason Utas wrote: >> >> Hello Sonny, All, >> I've often thought about such a term - "the rarest meteorite." >> The rarest meteorite would of course be smallest ungrouped meteorite, >> for one could feasibly conceive of a 1-2g unique meteorite. ?When a >> new type is named, however, a hype generally surrounds it - rather >> like the olivine diogenite craze of a few years ago, or the confusion >> surrounding Bencubbinites, and other poorly defined types of >> meteorites. >> The simple fact of the matter is that there meteorites are too often >> categorized by our current system into associations and groups into >> which they fit rather poorly; Jeff Grossman states as much in the last >> thread surrounding the poor chemical and isotopic relationships >> between many basaltic meteorites deemed "eucrites." >> But regardless of this fact, a simple truth remains. ?There are >> countless ungrouped meteorites and several Kakangari-type meteorites, >> so while they may be one of the least common "types," they are by no >> means examples of the "rarest" meteorite known. >> Regards, >> Jason >> >> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 6:12 PM, ? wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi Bernd and list, >>> >>> ?Would this be one of the rarest meteorites ever found? If not, what >>> meteorite would be? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Sonny >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de >>> To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> Sent: Tue, Nov 17, 2009 1:12 pm >>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Greg and List, >>> >>> Hardly any photos of Kakangaris exist. You'll find one on David >>> Weir's excellent website: http://www.meteoritestudies.com/ >>> >>> Click on chondrites and then scroll down to Kakangari! >>> >>> Thin section pics of Kakangari can be found here (on pages 202-205): >>> >>> D.S. LAURETTA, M. KILLGORE (2005) A Color Atlas of Meteorites in Thin >>> Section >>> (Golden Retriever Publications and Southwest Meteorite Press, ISBN >>> 0-9720472-1-2, 301 pp.). >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Bernd >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> > > From eric at meteoritesusa.com Tue Nov 17 23:20:06 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:20:06 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite / Could this be one of the rarest meteorites found? In-Reply-To: <93aaac890911171934l4f7ed4d1iad78e2070d184360@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC360BBE632691-5570-2D48@webmail-m008.sysops.aol.com> <93aaac890911171832t1247e9eet1cd03b02bd686425@mail.gmail.com> <4B03673F.7050400@meteoritesusa.com> <93aaac890911171934l4f7ed4d1iad78e2070d184360@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0375F6.4090809@meteoritesusa.com> Hey Jason, I agree with you, I'm just teasing you a bit... ;) You needn't defend your definition. The simplest point is that there is more than one factor involved in determining the rarity of a meteorite, or individual type. It can be all the above, and/or just one factor, as in your rare nwa xxx L6 which you will never sell. It's all in the eye of the "holder" and the one who wants to hold it. Just a small correction though, I said access is "also" a determining factor, not the "only" factor. So no I wasn't referring only to a groups of collectors with access, but rather everything relevant as a whole needs to be considered. Besides your point that you could acquire pieces of the two irons mentioned proves my point. It's also about access, and not just type, class, and TKW. They are rare, not everyone has access, but there's tons of the material. Count yourself lucky to be able to have that access to such rare specimens. So, considering all of this. I'd like to repose Sonny's very good questions... "...Would this (K-chondrite) be one of the rarest meteorites ever found? If not, what meteorite would be?..." Regards, Eric P.S. Sorry for hijacking this thread everyone... ;) Jason Utas wrote: > Hola Eric, All, > You're only talking about collector availability, which is a kind of > skewed way of looking at things, in my opinion. > I'm talking about rarity in the sense of how much of a given material > is known, "material" being the term for meteoric matter of a given > structure and chemical composition that we can distinguish as > different from other meteoric matter of differing structures and > compositions. > I hesitate to use the word "type" above because, as has been noted, > the types that we have assigned meteorites are in many cases far too > inclusive or exclusive as to be a truly accurate judge of such > associations. There are over two hundred Eucrites, and yet Ibitira is > unique. And a Eucrite. > It's a bit of an issue. > In other words, my "rare" applies to how much of 'something' we know > exists, whereas your "rare" applies to how much is available to > collectors. > > In my opinion, my usage of the word is more valid; according to your > definition, my NWA xxxx L6 of which I hold the entire mass (and will > never sell any) is indeed the "rarest" meteorite on the planet, along > with countless other common stones. It is also significantly more > "rare" than Kakangari, which is distributed amongst museums worldwide, > and which is owned by numerous collectors. My L6 is also more "rare" > than the "rare" meteorites you mention - both Willamette and Old > Woman; if I wanted to, I could procure a specimen of each of those > meteorites, whereas no one other than myself will ever own even a > milligram of my NWA xxxx L6. > > When I use the word "rare," it actually means that something is > uncommon or exists in limited quantity, as opposed to its being simply > inaccessible to a group of people, whomever that group may be. > It's just less subjective. > > Regards, > Jason > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 7:17 PM, Meteorites USA wrote: > >> Jason, list, >> >> Maybe I don't quite understand... ;) The size of an individual meteorite >> whether ungrouped or even a previously unknown type or new classification >> would not be the deciding factor in determining rarity at all would it? >> >> If of course you consider the major factor concerning rarity to be the >> number of stones or TKW, and you don't slice or break up the specimen, then >> a 1 ton stone could of course be the rarest type in existence if it were in >> fact of some previously unknown or ungrouped type right? The same could be >> said if no one had access to that 1 ton specimen. >> >> Technically speaking distribution and access to material is also a >> determining factor of the rarity of a meteorite. The term "rarest meteorite" >> does not quite depend on type or class alone. >> >> So yes I would agree that you're right, if type were the only factor >> involved, then your 1-2g specimen of an ungrouped type it would be the >> rarest meteorite. >> >> But consider the Willamette meteorite, or the Old Woman meteorite. They are >> both irons, and of a common class, but the distribution of that particular >> material in private and university collections makes it rare doesn't it? >> >> Obviously I'm splitting hairs... Maybe it's more about the meaning of the >> phrase "the rarest meteorite" than the actual rarity of the meteorite type >> class. >> >> Regards, >> Eric Wichman >> Meteorites USA >> >> >> >> >> >> Jason Utas wrote: >> >>> Hello Sonny, All, >>> I've often thought about such a term - "the rarest meteorite." >>> The rarest meteorite would of course be smallest ungrouped meteorite, >>> for one could feasibly conceive of a 1-2g unique meteorite. When a >>> new type is named, however, a hype generally surrounds it - rather >>> like the olivine diogenite craze of a few years ago, or the confusion >>> surrounding Bencubbinites, and other poorly defined types of >>> meteorites. >>> The simple fact of the matter is that there meteorites are too often >>> categorized by our current system into associations and groups into >>> which they fit rather poorly; Jeff Grossman states as much in the last >>> thread surrounding the poor chemical and isotopic relationships >>> between many basaltic meteorites deemed "eucrites." >>> But regardless of this fact, a simple truth remains. There are >>> countless ungrouped meteorites and several Kakangari-type meteorites, >>> so while they may be one of the least common "types," they are by no >>> means examples of the "rarest" meteorite known. >>> Regards, >>> Jason >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 6:12 PM, wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Hi Bernd and list, >>>> >>>> Would this be one of the rarest meteorites ever found? If not, what >>>> meteorite would be? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Sonny >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de >>>> To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> Sent: Tue, Nov 17, 2009 1:12 pm >>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Greg and List, >>>> >>>> Hardly any photos of Kakangaris exist. You'll find one on David >>>> Weir's excellent website: http://www.meteoritestudies.com/ >>>> >>>> Click on chondrites and then scroll down to Kakangari! >>>> >>>> Thin section pics of Kakangari can be found here (on pages 202-205): >>>> >>>> D.S. LAURETTA, M. KILLGORE (2005) A Color Atlas of Meteorites in Thin >>>> Section >>>> (Golden Retriever Publications and Southwest Meteorite Press, ISBN >>>> 0-9720472-1-2, 301 pp.). >>>> >>>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> >>>> Bernd >>>> >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> >>> >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > From bandk at chorus.net Tue Nov 17 23:35:55 2009 From: bandk at chorus.net (Becky and Kirk) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:35:55 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] ON EBAY---Nice Meteorites in Gem cases with I.D. Cards!! Message-ID: <49C259F2892B420B8C150AEE58A3EB3D@owner55652f88b> Hi Everyone, I have (8) very nice Meteorites for sale as one lot on ebay for a great price. Please see Ebay item #120492067429. Has a BUY IT NOW feature too!! Don't miss out!! Thank you, Kirk........:-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Becky and Kirk" To: Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 7:15 PM Subject: AD: FOR SALE: (1) NICE 47.4 g Unclassified whole stone & 36.5 g bag of Unclass. stones AND Austrian Meteorite stamps > > > > Hi All, > I have the following UNCLASSIFIED Meteorites for sale and also (2) > Austrian > Meteorite stamps. This stamp has the Meteorite dust on the stamp. They can > be > purchased separately or as a group. I am also open to offers for these of > course. > > (1) Very nice 47.4 gram whole Unclassified whole stone. Very nice form and > shape! NICE!! > (PLEASE MAKE A REASONABLE OFFER)!! Pics on request. > > (1) Small bag containing 36.5 total grams Unclassified Meteorites (4) > stones, a few slices and a fragment. (PLEASE MAKE A REASONABLE OFFER) > Pics on request. > > (2) Austrian Meteorite stamps. Has tiny bits & dust of an H-Chondrite > Meteorite > imbedded in the tail of the Meteorite on the stamp! Very unique stamp from > March 2006. Very good shape, kept in container. Rest of Meteorite is in a > Austrian Museum. > ($20.00 EACH or BEST OFFER). Pics on request. > > Interested parties please contact me off-list at: bandk at chorus.net. > > Thank you very much!! > Kirk.......:-) > > > > > From damoclid at yahoo.com Tue Nov 17 23:47:27 2009 From: damoclid at yahoo.com (Richard Kowalski) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:47:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite / Could this be one of the rarest meteorites found? In-Reply-To: <8CC360BBE632691-5570-2D48@webmail-m008.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <161340.59172.qm@web33901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hey Sonny, wasn't this answered recently on the list, but to another question? Hadley Rille -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA #1081 --- On Tue, 11/17/09, wahlperry at aol.com wrote: > From: wahlperry at aol.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite / Could this be one of the rarest meteorites found? > To: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 7:12 PM > Hi Bernd and list, > > Would this be one of the rarest meteorites ever found? If > not, what meteorite would be? > > Thanks, > Sonny > > > -----Original Message----- > From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Sent: Tue, Nov 17, 2009 1:12 pm > Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite > > > > > > > > Hi Greg and List, > > Hardly any photos of Kakangaris exist. You'll find one on > David > Weir's excellent website: http://www.meteoritestudies.com/ > > Click on chondrites and then scroll down to Kakangari! > > Thin section pics of Kakangari can be found here (on pages > 202-205): > > D.S. LAURETTA, M. KILLGORE (2005) A Color Atlas of > Meteorites in Thin Section > (Golden Retriever Publications and Southwest Meteorite > Press, ISBN > 0-9720472-1-2, 301 pp.). > > > Best wishes, > > Bernd > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From fcressy at prodigy.net Wed Nov 18 01:11:47 2009 From: fcressy at prodigy.net (Frank Cressy) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:11:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite / Could this be one of the rarest meteorites found? In-Reply-To: <161340.59172.qm@web33901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <161340.59172.qm@web33901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <722210.82199.qm@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ? Hello all, Thought this might be of some interest concerning the rarest meteorite, at least from a historical viewpoint.? At the beginning of the Twentieth Century, Henry A. Ward thought Nobleborough (1823 Maine fall) was one of the rarest of the meteorites?he owned.? At this time Ward owned one of the world?s largest meteorite collections?that was on par with the national collections in Vienna, London, and Paris.? The Ward-Coonley collection (now part of the Field Museum collection in Chicago) contained 603 different locations in 1904 and weighed nearly 2500 kilograms.? In a collection catalog of the same year, Ward stated that the Nobleborough meteorite, the third recovered meteorite fall in the U.S., was the ?rarest American aerolite? [stony meteorite].???At this time, there were other stony meteorites with a smaller preserved weight such as Deal (~30 gms.) and Bethlehem (13 gms.), but they were ordinary chondrites.? Nobleborough was a rare, differentiated stony meteorite, and only four had fallen or been found in the U.S. to that time.? Two were eucrites, Nobleborough (~78 gms TPW) and Petersburg (1.8 kg.).?? Frankfort (stone) (650 gms) was a howardite and Bishopville (5.9 kg.) an aubrite.? Most of the Nobleborough mass had been lost and collections had only small specimens.? Merrill (1934), in writing about valuation of meteorites, lists three main factors that determined their value; present known weight, petrographic composition, and number of owners of pieces.? About Nobleborough, he noted:?? ?The climax is reached, however, in the case of the stone of Nobleboro [Nobleborough], Maine of which there was originally from four to six pounds, but seventy-eight grams are now accounted for, distributed among eleven collections, seven of which record only ?splinters?.?? ? Needless to say, most curators were extremely reluctant to part with any of the Nobleborough meteorite from their cabinets and no doubt Ward was ecstatic to have acquired a 19 gram specimen for his.? As for myself, I too would certainly like a "splinter" in my collection. Cheers, Frank From meteoriteshow at free.fr Wed Nov 18 07:12:56 2009 From: meteoriteshow at free.fr (meteoriteshow at free.fr) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:12:56 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - ebay auctions ending on Saturday Message-ID: <1258546376.4b03e4c81174c@imp.free.fr> Dear Listees, Our ebay auctions ending on Saturday can be seen at: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ50QQsassZmeteoriteshow They include: 1- Ain Ouinet (unclass.) CV3 - 6.8g slice Slice #6, weighing 6.8g, dimensions ~44x29x2mm. Diplays a HUGE CAI with some smaller ones and many sharpely defined chondrules. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330376705010 2- Al Haggounia 001 PRIM. AUB - 19.9g partslice Partslice #007 weighing 19.9g, dimensions 80x44x3.8mm. Cut in one of the freshest framents of Al Haggounia 001 Large & fragile partslice (fractured) displaying what is probably a ghost chondrule in the fair grey matrix and an interesting oxydized vein. Shipped in a display box STILL AT $1.00 STARTING PRICE, NO BID YET!!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330376705133 3- EL AROUSS L-IMB (unclas.) - 217.2g slice FULL SLICE weighing 217.2g, dimensions 158x125x5mm. Huge vesiculated cavity with a lot of smaller ones, pools of Fe/Ni a "milky way" of metal flakes. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330376705219 4- SAHARAN OC #3029 - 137.35g individual TOTAL MASS, individual weighing 137.35g - dimensions: 57x43x28mm. Fractured meteorite with rests of FUSION CRUST STILL AT $1.00 STARTING PRICE! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330376705299 5- TAMDAKHT H5 - 22.9g frag - WITNESSED FALL! Fragment weighing 22.9g, dimensions: 44x27x15mm. Displays primary & secondary FUSION CRUST, very fresh fair grey matrix http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330376705427 6- ZAG H3-6 - 23.97g frag - WITNESSED FALL! Fragment weighing 23.97g, Dimensions: 30x28x15mm With slickenside and Fusion Crust. STILL AT $1.00 STARTING PRICE! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330376705590 Thank you very much for watching and best wishes to ALL BIDDERS!!! Kind regards, Frederic Beroud http://www.meteoriteshow.com IMCA member # 2491 (http://www.imca.cc/) From meteoriteplaya at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 09:03:55 2009 From: meteoriteplaya at gmail.com (Mike Jensen) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:03:55 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Whetstone Mountains prices and availability Message-ID: <6f9da8300911180603m7d499deejd8334003874a94a6@mail.gmail.com> Gonna try this again. Hi All Just wondering if any of the new Arizona fall has been has been sold and what the going rate is? Also wondering if any small complete stones were recovered. Any one got any for sale? -- Mike Mike Jensen Meteorites 16730 E Ada PL Aurora, CO 80017-3137 USA 720-949-6220 IMCA 4264 website: www.jensenmeteorites.com -- Mike -- Mike Jensen Meteorites 16730 E Ada PL Aurora, CO 80017-3137 USA 720-949-6220 IMCA 4264 website: www.jensenmeteorites.com From drtanuki at yahoo.com Wed Nov 18 10:11:17 2009 From: drtanuki at yahoo.com (drtanuki) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:11:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 Message-ID: <966577.92007.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear List, Several reports coming about the Utah large fireball and video available. Looks like a good chance for a meteorite. http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2009/11/latest-worldwide-meteometeorite-news.html Happy Hunting, Dirk Ross...Tokyo From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Wed Nov 18 13:04:42 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:04:42 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 In-Reply-To: <966577.92007.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <966577.92007.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Awesome - hopefully another fall and a find - guys, get you boots on. Is it true ?? Iron meteorites result in a green fireball?? Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:11:17 -0800 > From: drtanuki at yahoo.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; meteorobs at meteorobs.org > Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 > > Dear List, > Several reports coming about the Utah large fireball and video available. Looks like a good chance for a meteorite. > > http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2009/11/latest-worldwide-meteometeorite-news.html > > Happy Hunting, > Dirk Ross...Tokyo > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 From lintonius at earthlink.net Wed Nov 18 13:09:57 2009 From: lintonius at earthlink.net (Linton Rohr) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:09:57 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 References: <966577.92007.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Dirk! "...a giant green fireball about the size of the moon"? I'm taking notes on this one. Linton ----- Original Message ----- From: "drtanuki" To: ; "Global Meteor Observing Forum" Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 7:11 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 > Dear List, > Several reports coming about the Utah large fireball and video available. > Looks like a good chance for a meteorite. > > http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2009/11/latest-worldwide-meteometeorite-news.html > > Happy Hunting, > Dirk Ross...Tokyo > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Wed Nov 18 13:17:31 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:17:31 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 In-Reply-To: <80659e1a0911181010v280c3052md01a4cf8b7aa60f4@mail.gmail.com> References: <966577.92007.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <80659e1a0911181010v280c3052md01a4cf8b7aa60f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Good luck Ruben and to your team. Greg S. ________________________________ > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:10:25 -0700 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 > From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com > To: stanleygregr at hotmail.com > CC: drtanuki at yahoo.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; meteorobs at meteorobs.org > > Greg, > > My boots are on and bags are packed. Hopefully will be leaving soon..... > > > > Rock On! > > Ruben Garcia > > Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net > Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ > Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u > > > > > > Awesome - hopefully another fall and a find - guys, get you boots on. > > Is it true ?? Iron meteorites result in a green fireball?? > > > Greg S. > > ---------------------------------------- >> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:11:17 -0800 >> From: drtanuki at yahoo.com >> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; meteorobs at meteorobs.org > >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 > > > >> >> Dear List, >> Several reports coming about the Utah large fireball and video available. Looks like a good chance for a meteorite. >> >> http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2009/11/latest-worldwide-meteometeorite-news.html > >> >> Happy Hunting, >> Dirk Ross...Tokyo >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 > > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > -- > _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From mrmeteorite at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 13:19:19 2009 From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com (Ruben Garcia) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:19:19 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 In-Reply-To: <80659e1a0911181010v280c3052md01a4cf8b7aa60f4@mail.gmail.com> References: <966577.92007.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <80659e1a0911181010v280c3052md01a4cf8b7aa60f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80659e1a0911181019l65694c9dved533c96b8e9f65d@mail.gmail.com> Greg, My boots are on and bags are packed. Hopefully will be leaving soon..... Rock On! Ruben Garcia Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u > > Awesome - hopefully another fall and a find - guys, get you boots on. >> >> Is it true ?? Iron meteorites result in a green fireball?? >> >> Greg S. >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:11:17 -0800 >> > From: drtanuki at yahoo.com >> > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; meteorobs at meteorobs.org >> > Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 >> > >> > Dear List, >> > Several reports coming about the Utah large fireball and video available. Looks like a good chance for a meteorite. >> > >> > http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2009/11/latest-worldwide-meteometeorite-news.html >> > >> > Happy Hunting, >> > Dirk Ross...Tokyo >> > ______________________________________________ >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. >> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > -- > -- Rock On! Ruben Garcia Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u From mrmeteorite at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 13:26:00 2009 From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com (Ruben Garcia) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:26:00 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 In-Reply-To: References: <966577.92007.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <80659e1a0911181010v280c3052md01a4cf8b7aa60f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80659e1a0911181026h6dd1a9f3td412cf0dcee34ee3@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, If meteorites are found the real heroes here may be Marc Fries and Rob Matson since we will likely need good radar data to recover stones. Unless of course someone reports a meteorite in their living room. On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Greg Stanley wrote: > > Good luck Ruben and to your team. > > Greg S. > > ________________________________ >> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:10:25 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 >> From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com >> To: stanleygregr at hotmail.com >> CC: drtanuki at yahoo.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; meteorobs at meteorobs.org >> >> Greg, >> >> My boots are on and bags are packed. Hopefully will be leaving soon..... >> >> >> >> Rock On! >> >> Ruben Garcia >> >> Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net >> Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ >> Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u >> >> >> >> >> >> Awesome - hopefully another fall and a find - guys, get you boots on. >> >> Is it true ?? Iron meteorites result in a green fireball?? >> >> >> Greg S. >> >> ---------------------------------------- >>> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:11:17 -0800 >>> From: drtanuki at yahoo.com >>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; meteorobs at meteorobs.org >> >>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 >> >> >> >>> >>> Dear List, >>> Several reports coming about the Utah large fireball and video available. Looks like a good chance for a meteorite. >>> >>> http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2009/11/latest-worldwide-meteometeorite-news.html >> >>> >>> Happy Hunting, >>> Dirk Ross...Tokyo >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >> >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. >> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> >> >> -- >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. > http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 -- Rock On! Ruben Garcia Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u From mrmeteorite at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 13:34:11 2009 From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com (Ruben Garcia) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:34:11 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 In-Reply-To: References: <966577.92007.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <80659e1a0911181034g6ea6c2aeoadc69511958a5ad0@mail.gmail.com> ?Thanks, If meteorites are found the real heroes here may be Marc Fries and Rob Matson since we will likely need good radar data to recover stones. Unless of course someone reports a meteorite in their living room. Rock On! Ruben Garcia Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Greg Stanley wrote: > > Awesome - hopefully another fall and a find - guys, get you boots on. > > Is it true ?? Iron meteorites result in a green fireball?? > > Greg S. > > ---------------------------------------- >> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:11:17 -0800 >> From: drtanuki at yahoo.com >> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; meteorobs at meteorobs.org >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 >> >> Dear List, >> Several reports coming about the Utah large fireball and video available. Looks like a good chance for a meteorite. >> >> http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2009/11/latest-worldwide-meteometeorite-news.html >> >> Happy Hunting, >> Dirk Ross...Tokyo >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- Rock On! Ruben Garcia Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u From orrlarue at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 13:35:17 2009 From: orrlarue at gmail.com (Or) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:35:17 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 In-Reply-To: <80659e1a0911181026h6dd1a9f3td412cf0dcee34ee3@mail.gmail.com> References: <966577.92007.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <80659e1a0911181010v280c3052md01a4cf8b7aa60f4@mail.gmail.com> <80659e1a0911181026h6dd1a9f3td412cf0dcee34ee3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <496f9bcf0911181035u58f33ff4y8291c595067061af@mail.gmail.com> Good luck Ruben. I will be living vicariously through you and the other hunters. Orrin La Rue Surprise, Arizona On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Ruben Garcia wrote: > Thanks, > If meteorites are found the real heroes here may be Marc Fries and Rob > Matson since we will likely need good radar data to recover stones. > Unless of course someone reports a meteorite in their living room. > > > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Greg Stanley wrote: >> >> Good luck Ruben and to your team. >> >> Greg S. >> >> ________________________________ >>> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:10:25 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 >>> From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com >>> To: stanleygregr at hotmail.com >>> CC: drtanuki at yahoo.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; meteorobs at meteorobs.org >>> >>> Greg, >>> >>> My boots are on and bags are packed. Hopefully will be leaving soon..... >>> >>> >>> >>> Rock On! >>> >>> Ruben Garcia >>> >>> Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net >>> Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ >>> Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Awesome - hopefully another fall and a find - guys, get you boots on. >>> >>> Is it true ?? Iron meteorites result in a green fireball?? >>> >>> >>> Greg S. >>> >>> ---------------------------------------- >>>> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:11:17 -0800 >>>> From: drtanuki at yahoo.com >>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; meteorobs at meteorobs.org >>> >>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Dear List, >>>> Several reports coming about the Utah large fireball and video available. Looks like a good chance for a meteorite. >>>> >>>> http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2009/11/latest-worldwide-meteometeorite-news.html >>> >>>> >>>> Happy Hunting, >>>> Dirk Ross...Tokyo >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. >>> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. >> http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 > > > > -- > Rock On! > > Ruben Garcia > > Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net > Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ > Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From clp at alumni.caltech.edu Wed Nov 18 13:13:19 2009 From: clp at alumni.caltech.edu (Chris Peterson) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:13:19 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 References: <966577.92007.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8385D4D57FE14BB18D38918D03BA5FE4@bellatrix> Virtually all slow, bright fireballs are green. The color comes from atmospheric oxygen. Any green lines from iron would show up spectroscopically, but not visually. There is no way to determine composition from visual color. This was apparently breaking up over a long distance- I estimate at least 300 miles. So my bet would be on a stony body. Chris ***************************************** Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Stanley" To: ; ; Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 > > Awesome - hopefully another fall and a find - guys, get you boots on. > > Is it true ?? Iron meteorites result in a green fireball?? > > Greg S. From majbaermann at web.de Wed Nov 18 13:36:54 2009 From: majbaermann at web.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Matthias_B=E4rmann?=) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:36:54 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 References: <966577.92007.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com><80659e1a0911181010v280c3052md01a4cf8b7aa60f4@mail.gmail.com> <80659e1a0911181026h6dd1a9f3td412cf0dcee34ee3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Green fireball? Iron? Give Hopper a short but intensive sniff at your Sikhote, Ruben, and let him simply run. Good luck! Matthias B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruben Garcia" To: "Meteorite List" Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 7:26 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 > Thanks, > If meteorites are found the real heroes here may be Marc Fries and Rob > Matson since we will likely need good radar data to recover stones. > Unless of course someone reports a meteorite in their living room. > > > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Greg Stanley > wrote: >> >> Good luck Ruben and to your team. >> >> Greg S. >> >> ________________________________ >>> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:10:25 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 >>> From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com >>> To: stanleygregr at hotmail.com >>> CC: drtanuki at yahoo.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; >>> meteorobs at meteorobs.org >>> >>> Greg, >>> >>> My boots are on and bags are packed. Hopefully will be leaving soon..... >>> >>> >>> >>> Rock On! >>> >>> Ruben Garcia >>> >>> Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net >>> Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ >>> Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Awesome - hopefully another fall and a find - guys, get you boots on. >>> >>> Is it true ?? Iron meteorites result in a green fireball?? >>> >>> >>> Greg S. >>> >>> ---------------------------------------- >>>> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:11:17 -0800 >>>> From: drtanuki at yahoo.com >>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; meteorobs at meteorobs.org >>> >>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Dear List, >>>> Several reports coming about the Utah large fireball and video >>>> available. Looks like a good chance for a meteorite. >>>> >>>> http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2009/11/latest-worldwide-meteometeorite-news.html >>> >>>> >>>> Happy Hunting, >>>> Dirk Ross...Tokyo >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. >>> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. >> http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 > > > > -- > Rock On! > > Ruben Garcia > > Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net > Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ > Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From roxfromspace at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 13:56:20 2009 From: roxfromspace at gmail.com (Phil Morgan) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:56:20 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 In-Reply-To: References: <966577.92007.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <80659e1a0911181010v280c3052md01a4cf8b7aa60f4@mail.gmail.com> <80659e1a0911181026h6dd1a9f3td412cf0dcee34ee3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <70baf8d20911181056m47fc191di92c1deed91ef995e@mail.gmail.com> I stayed up too late last night, but in retrospect I guess not late enough. I was taking the family to Sun Valley next week but maybe I need to change my plans. Looking forward to hearing more... Phil (in Boise, Idaho) On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Matthias B?rmann wrote: > Green fireball? Iron? Give Hopper a short but intensive sniff at your > Sikhote, Ruben, and let him simply run. > > Good luck! > > Matthias B. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruben Garcia" > To: "Meteorite List" > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 7:26 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 > > >> Thanks, >> If meteorites are found the real heroes here may be Marc Fries and Rob >> Matson since we will likely need good radar data to recover stones. >> Unless of course someone reports a meteorite in their living room. >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Greg Stanley >> wrote: >>> >>> Good luck Ruben and to your team. >>> >>> Greg S. >>> >>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:10:25 -0700 >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 >>>> From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com >>>> To: stanleygregr at hotmail.com >>>> CC: drtanuki at yahoo.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; >>>> meteorobs at meteorobs.org >>>> >>>> Greg, >>>> >>>> My boots are on and bags are packed. Hopefully will be leaving soon..... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Rock On! >>>> >>>> Ruben Garcia >>>> >>>> Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net >>>> Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ >>>> Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Awesome - hopefully another fall and a find - guys, get you boots on. >>>> >>>> Is it true ?? Iron meteorites result in a green fireball?? >>>> >>>> >>>> Greg S. >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:11:17 -0800 >>>>> From: drtanuki at yahoo.com >>>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; meteorobs at meteorobs.org >>>> >>>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dear List, >>>>> Several reports coming about the Utah large fireball and video >>>>> available. Looks like a good chance for a meteorite. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2009/11/latest-worldwide-meteometeorite-news.html >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Happy Hunting, >>>>> Dirk Ross...Tokyo >>>>> ______________________________________________ >>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> >>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. >>>> >>>> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. >>> >>> http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 >> >> >> >> -- >> Rock On! >> >> Ruben Garcia >> >> Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net >> Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ >> Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From fuzzfoot at comcast.net Wed Nov 18 13:53:30 2009 From: fuzzfoot at comcast.net (Mike Bandli) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:53:30 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 In-Reply-To: <80659e1a0911181019l65694c9dved533c96b8e9f65d@mail.gmail.com> References: <966577.92007.qm@web53101.mail.re2.yahoo.com><80659e1a0911181010v280c3052md01a4cf8b7aa60f4@mail.gmail.com> <80659e1a0911181019l65694c9dved533c96b8e9f65d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <98EC4565A9B24FA5920242BFF60612EE@Bandli1> I'm on stand-by. Meteorite bug-out-bag is ready. Hoping to be eating turkey with a side of meteorites. ----------------------------------- Mike Bandli Historic Meteorites www.HistoricMeteorites.com IMCA #5765 Member, Meteoritical Society ----------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Ruben Garcia Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 10:19 AM To: Meteorite List Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 Greg, My boots are on and bags are packed. Hopefully will be leaving soon..... Rock On! Ruben Garcia Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u > > Awesome - hopefully another fall and a find - guys, get you boots on. >> >> Is it true ?? Iron meteorites result in a green fireball?? >> >> Greg S. >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:11:17 -0800 >> > From: drtanuki at yahoo.com >> > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; meteorobs at meteorobs.org >> > Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 >> > >> > Dear List, >> > Several reports coming about the Utah large fireball and video available. Looks like a good chance for a meteorite. >> > >> > http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2009/11/latest-worldwide-meteomete orite-news.html >> > >> > Happy Hunting, >> > Dirk Ross...Tokyo >> > ______________________________________________ >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. >> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLM TAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > -- > -- Rock On! Ruben Garcia Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From eric at meteoritesusa.com Wed Nov 18 14:18:39 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:18:39 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Chirp Chirp Message-ID: <4B04488F.1060102@meteoritesusa.com> Chirp chirp... Do I here crickets on the list... It's awful quiet here... The list is suddenly and eerily quiet... ;) Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Wed Nov 18 14:22:18 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:22:18 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] 'Field Guide to Meteors and Meteorites' wins award from the Geoscience Information Society Message-ID: Congratulations are in order to the authors of this outstanding publication and it's too bad Mr. Norton was unable to see this; he left us way too soon. Greg S. http://www.physorg.com/wire-news/20005900/field-guide-to-meteors-and-meteorites-wins-award-from-the-geosci.html 'Field Guide to Meteors and Meteorites' wins award from the Geoscience Information Society November 18th, 2009 The Springer book Field Guide to Meteors and Meteorites by O. Richard Norton and Lawrence A. Chitwood has been awarded the Mary B. Ansari Best Reference Work Award 2009 by the Geoscience Information Society. This Award, established in 2005, recognizes and honors significant contributions to the geoscience information profession. "Weekend meteorite hunting" with magnets and metal detectors is becoming more and more popular as a pastime. Those fragments that survived the intense heat of re-entry tend to disguise themselves as natural rocks over time, and it takes a trained eye - along with the information in Field Guide to Meteors and Meteorites - to recognize them. Equipment and techniques are covered in detail, along with a complete and fully illustrated guide to what you might find and where you might find it. BBC Sky at Night Magazine wrote, "This groundbreaking book ? is the most concise guide to date on every aspect of this fascinating field. The authors combine the collecting, study and hunting of meteorites with good advice on equipment and identification techniques. ? This is an impressive book containing everything you need to know about these remarkable cosmic treasures." _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 From korotev at wustl.edu Wed Nov 18 14:55:32 2009 From: korotev at wustl.edu (Randy Korotev) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:55:32 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fwd: MOHAVE NATIONAL PRESERVE / CIMA / 111709 IMPACT Message-ID: <200911181955.nAIJt1W02393@levee.wustl.edu> Anybody know anything about this one? >Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:28:23 -0800 >Subject: MOHAVE NATIONAL PRESERVE / CIMA / 111709 IMPACT >From: JASON SCHROTBERGER >To: "korotev at wustl.edu" > >My name is Jason Schrotberger and I am a resident of Arizona. Just >wondering if you had heard of a meteor strike in the above mentioned >area of California. I witnessed the impact and resulting orange >flash/explosion at approximately 2300 hrs. during the leonid >shower. The flash was seen for hundreds of miles. Information >only, not sure if you are interested in the impacts as well as >meteors. You can contact me at SCHROTE at GMAIL.COM. if you have any questions. From ROBERT.D.MATSON at saic.com Wed Nov 18 15:08:42 2009 From: ROBERT.D.MATSON at saic.com (Matson, Robert D.) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:08:42 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fwd: MOHAVE NATIONAL PRESERVE / CIMA / 111709IMPACT In-Reply-To: <200911181955.nAIJt1W02393@levee.wustl.edu> References: <200911181955.nAIJt1W02393@levee.wustl.edu> Message-ID: <7C640E28081AEE4B952F008D1E913F17022476E9@0461-its-exmb04.us.saic.com> Hi Randy, The timing of the observation is consistent with the Utah/Nevada bolide (7:07 UT = 00:07 MST = 23:07 PST). This is turning out to be quite a fall, visible from a very wide area: Wyoming, Utah, Nevada, southern Idaho, and eastern California. I expect the fall location will turn out to be in either very western central Utah, or eastern central Nevada (I'm leaning a little more toward eastern Nevada based on the low elevation angle as seen from Salt Lake City). --Rob -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Randy Korotev Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 11:56 AM To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Fwd: MOHAVE NATIONAL PRESERVE / CIMA / 111709IMPACT Anybody know anything about this one? >Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:28:23 -0800 >Subject: MOHAVE NATIONAL PRESERVE / CIMA / 111709 IMPACT >From: JASON SCHROTBERGER >To: "korotev at wustl.edu" > >My name is Jason Schrotberger and I am a resident of Arizona. Just >wondering if you had heard of a meteor strike in the above mentioned >area of California. I witnessed the impact and resulting orange >flash/explosion at approximately 2300 hrs. during the leonid shower. >The flash was seen for hundreds of miles. Information only, not sure >if you are interested in the impacts as well as meteors. You can >contact me at SCHROTE at GMAIL.COM. if you have any questions. From meteoriteman at comcast.net Wed Nov 18 15:39:22 2009 From: meteoriteman at comcast.net (meteoriteman at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:39:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah Meteor Message-ID: <543494541.4116401258576762589.JavaMail.root@sz0098a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Here's more video on the fall. http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-bolide-meteor-lights-up-sky,0,1115590.story Jim K From Impactika at aol.com Wed Nov 18 15:46:46 2009 From: Impactika at aol.com (Impactika at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:46:46 EST Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 Message-ID: And don't forget your snow shovel. You might need it! Anne M. Black _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) _IMPACTIKA at aol.com_ (mailto:IMPACTIKA at aol.com) Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) In a message dated 11/18/2009 11:19:44 AM Mountain Standard Time, mrmeteorite at gmail.com writes: Greg, My boots are on and bags are packed. Hopefully will be leaving soon..... Rock On! Ruben Garcia From lintonius at earthlink.net Wed Nov 18 15:49:54 2009 From: lintonius at earthlink.net (Linton Rohr) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:49:54 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah Meteor References: <543494541.4116401258576762589.JavaMail.root@sz0098a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <688B7B8B102D4F2AB17A068678F28078@D190TH71> Thanks Jim. Looks like that security camera footage could be quite helpful. Linton ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:39 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah Meteor > > Here's more video on the fall. > > http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-bolide-meteor-lights-up-sky,0,1115590.story > > Jim K > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteoritekid at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 16:17:06 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:17:06 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite / Could this be one of the rarest meteorites found? In-Reply-To: <722210.82199.qm@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <161340.59172.qm@web33901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <722210.82199.qm@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <93aaac890911181317l1a5db2d5q54fd73ebc6541e21@mail.gmail.com> Hello Frank, All, The trouble with that example is that it really supports both viewpoints, due to its context. First and foremost, its type was extremely uncommon at the time (Eucrites are now rather commonplace), and second, there was very little available of both the type and of the given fall. The trouble with taking into account what Ward or Merrill considered to be the primary determinants of "value" is the assumption that both value and rarity go hand in hand. While there is some association between the two, well, look at the market. You have unique meteorites like Portales Valley selling for $20-30/g, and relatively common rocks like, say, Ash Creek, going for the same amount. [Don't go off on me - I'm not complaining - just pointing out an irrationality in the marketplace.] Price is determined by marketing and supply and demand - not rarity, though it is a contributing factor. Hence Ward didn't value the other "differentiated" meteorites as much, even though they were grouped together at the time. When reading about meteorites in older literature, one will often see comparisons made between such and so meteorite and a similar meteorite that was recently found. This is because the classification schemes at the time didn't provide adequate groupings for the number of chemically and structurally distinct meteorites being found. They didn't have "Eucrites," so they compared to known meteorites that were similar...such a system of categorization would provide for skewed senses of "rarity" (not that our current system is any better at it). And since most modern meteorite types were grouped together, rarity was determined rather differently at the time, with the availability of a given fall determining "rarity," because "types" were as yet ill-defined. Thus what was considered rare a hundred years ago might not fit the bill today - though, as I noted above, even Ward and Merrill appear to have bought into the hype surrounding finds with low total known weights, so I consider their points of view to be at least somewhat collector/market oriented. Regards, Jason On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Frank Cressy wrote: > > Hello all, > > Thought this might be of some interest concerning the rarest meteorite, at least from a historical viewpoint.? At the beginning of the Twentieth Century, Henry A. Ward thought Nobleborough (1823 Maine fall) was one of the rarest of the meteorites?he owned.? At this time Ward owned one of the world?s largest meteorite collections?that was on par with the national collections in Vienna, London, and Paris.? The Ward-Coonley collection (now part of the Field Museum collection in Chicago) contained 603 different locations in 1904 and weighed nearly 2500 kilograms.? In a collection catalog of the same year, Ward stated that the Nobleborough meteorite, the third recovered meteorite fall in the U.S., was the ?rarest American aerolite? [stony meteorite].???At this time, there were other stony meteorites with a smaller preserved weight such as Deal (~30 gms.) and Bethlehem (13 gms.), but they were ordinary chondrites.? Nobleborough was a rare, > ?differentiated stony meteorite, and only four had fallen or been found in the U.S. to that time.? Two were eucrites, Nobleborough (~78 gms TPW) and Petersburg (1.8 kg.).?? Frankfort (stone) (650 gms) was a howardite and Bishopville (5.9 kg.) an aubrite.? Most of the Nobleborough mass had been lost and collections had only small specimens.? Merrill (1934), in writing about valuation of meteorites, lists three main factors that determined their value; present known weight, petrographic composition, and number of owners of pieces.? About Nobleborough, he noted:?? ?The climax is reached, however, in the case of the stone of Nobleboro [Nobleborough], Maine of which there was originally from four to six pounds, but seventy-eight grams are now accounted for, distributed among eleven collections, seven of which record only ?splinters?.? > > Needless to say, most curators were extremely reluctant to part with any of the Nobleborough meteorite from their cabinets and no doubt Ward was ecstatic to have acquired a 19 gram specimen for his.? As for myself, I too would certainly like a "splinter" in my collection. > > Cheers, > > Frank > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From meteoritekid at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 16:37:32 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:37:32 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Sikhote crust-chondrite / Could this be one of the rarest meteorites found? In-Reply-To: <20091118132645.VHVV4.230300.imail@fed1rmwml35> References: <93aaac890911171832t1247e9eet1cd03b02bd686425@mail.gmail.com> <20091118132645.VHVV4.230300.imail@fed1rmwml35> Message-ID: <93aaac890911181337l1f317e84xa6ccff092f0d193b@mail.gmail.com> Carl, All, Wow, thanks for that...hum. Right - I think people are confusing rarity with desirability, market value, and collector availability, when these are all really distinct terms. Right, it's all about O-isotopes now, but I'm not really sure why - it seems to me that chemistry should be just as important...surely there could have been parent bodies forming in the same general areas as each other that were distinct bodies, but that, due to their relative proximity, have similar or identical O-isotope values. I don't know - maybe that is how we group things...seems illogical to me, though. The trouble with "fusion crust..." If I recall, a while back, Elton made some strange comments about a fusion crust having to be composed of siliceous material and impurities such as oxides etc. He argued that, because the crust that forms on irons lacks silicates, it is not a true fusion crust. The consensus of the list was that the crust that forms on irons may be chemically distinct from the crust that forms on stones, but it is for all intensive purposes analogous in pretty much every way to the stony version, so we might as well call them the same thing. I think the reason we don't see much in the way of fusion crust on silicated irons is because, well, there aren't many fresh silicated irons around. There are plenty of examples of crusted irons - and with just over 50 iron falls, some of which are accessible to collectors, well, they're there to be seen. I don't know how many of those ~50 iron falls are silicated, but I do know one thing - of all of them, Udei Station's the only one that's available in any real quantity, and I've never seen an example with good crust. I don't think that's because it didn't form a fusion crust - I just think that such pieces aren't widely available, so they remain out of our field of view, for the most part... Think of Estherville, things like that. They're made of a pretty even mix of iron and stone and they still form a fusion crust. I have a ~4.7g 1/2 end of Bencubbin that shows some pretty spectacular warty fusion crust...I can get some pictures up if you'd like. I figure that's about 1/2 stone and metal as well, so...yeah. Regards, Jason On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 10:26 AM, wrote: > Jason, I would first like to say that if there were an award for most helpful and kind on this list you would be the winner. > I truly believe you offer more good information than anyone else on this list. That says a lot because there are a ton of great people on this list. And I want to thank you for all you do. You are a tremendous person. > > I think you are 100% correct with this evaluation as you describe it. But, There is something to desirability / Valuable in the formula of "rare". > Just because something is rare does not mean it is desirable or valuable. To me rarely is irrelevant if not desirable. As you correctly point out. Who cares about your L6. So, to me the rarest meteorite that has those things has got to be the meteorite that every collector wants the most. > That said it would be a subjective call but for me it would be ALH 84001. > Lastly, Your reference to Jeff Grossman are correct but I notice that Oxygen isotopes rule in this biz. If the air matches , then that is where it is from and therefore that is what it is. > A recent example of this is GRA 06128. They are calling it a brachinite based on Isotopes even though it is not related in ?other ways to the brach clan. So, apparently the where it is from needs more specific categories like Mars now has four different categories. > Anyway, I wanted to thank you for all your information. I know I had never seen actual fusion crust on any iron before yours. I have seen a lot of impostors but yours is truly the real deal. > Has anyone ever studied that crust to determine what it is made up of? It seems from an earlier thread that the crust must be a mixture of the silicates within this meteorite. Because most other irons without silicates within them do not seem to leave a true fusion crust like your sikhote did? Thanks Carl > -- > Carl or Debbie Esparza > Meteoritemax > > > ---- Jason Utas wrote: >> Hello Sonny, All, >> I've often thought about such a term - "the rarest meteorite." >> The rarest meteorite would of course be smallest ungrouped meteorite, >> for one could feasibly conceive of a 1-2g unique meteorite. ?When a >> new type is named, however, a hype generally surrounds it - rather >> like the olivine diogenite craze of a few years ago, or the confusion >> surrounding Bencubbinites, and other poorly defined types of >> meteorites. >> The simple fact of the matter is that there meteorites are too often >> categorized by our current system into associations and groups into >> which they fit rather poorly; Jeff Grossman states as much in the last >> thread surrounding the poor chemical and isotopic relationships >> between many basaltic meteorites deemed "eucrites." >> But regardless of this fact, a simple truth remains. ?There are >> countless ungrouped meteorites and several Kakangari-type meteorites, >> so while they may be one of the least common "types," they are by no >> means examples of the "rarest" meteorite known. >> Regards, >> Jason >> >> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 6:12 PM, ? wrote: >> > Hi Bernd and list, >> > >> > ?Would this be one of the rarest meteorites ever found? If not, what >> > meteorite would be? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Sonny >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de >> > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > Sent: Tue, Nov 17, 2009 1:12 pm >> > Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Hi Greg and List, >> > >> > Hardly any photos of Kakangaris exist. You'll find one on David >> > Weir's excellent website: http://www.meteoritestudies.com/ >> > >> > Click on chondrites and then scroll down to Kakangari! >> > >> > Thin section pics of Kakangari can be found here (on pages 202-205): >> > >> > D.S. LAURETTA, M. KILLGORE (2005) A Color Atlas of Meteorites in Thin >> > Section >> > (Golden Retriever Publications and Southwest Meteorite Press, ISBN >> > 0-9720472-1-2, 301 pp.). >> > >> > >> > Best wishes, >> > >> > Bernd >> > >> > ______________________________________________ >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ______________________________________________ >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Wed Nov 18 16:47:51 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:47:51 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite / Could this be one of the rarest meteorites found? In-Reply-To: <93aaac890911181317l1a5db2d5q54fd73ebc6541e21@mail.gmail.com> References: <161340.59172.qm@web33901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <722210.82199.qm@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <93aaac890911181317l1a5db2d5q54fd73ebc6541e21@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jason, Sonny, Frank and others: The definition of Rare:? "thinly distributed over an area; few and widely separated" So in its simplest form, the rarest would be a meteorite group, single type (ALH84001) or a single meteorite with a unique composition and the least amount found on earth.? Just like a mineral or a rock.? Are diamonds rare? not really, but they do have value.? I believe rubies are more rare.? I don't think the "availability" should come into the picture as it is still sitting in a lab somewhere, so it should be counted.? Thus, I would say the K-chondrite would be one of the rarest "groups."? But wait... there's more; the K-chondrites are actually a grouplet <5 pieces known, not enough material to be a group.? But then there are "ungrouped" meteorites, so it you take one of these, that was uniquely different from any other found and was the smallest (in size and weight) - then that would be the rarest, and I do not know which one. Speaking of rare - I only can find three pictures of a K-chondrite on the entire web, now that's rare. Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:17:06 -0800 > From: meteoritekid at gmail.com > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite / Could this be one of the rarest meteorites found? > > Hello Frank, All, > > The trouble with that example is that it really supports both > viewpoints, due to its context. First and foremost, its type was > extremely uncommon at the time (Eucrites are now rather commonplace), > and second, there was very little available of both the type and of > the given fall. The trouble with taking into account what Ward or > Merrill considered to be the primary determinants of "value" is the > assumption that both value and rarity go hand in hand. > While there is some association between the two, well, look at the > market. You have unique meteorites like Portales Valley selling for > $20-30/g, and relatively common rocks like, say, Ash Creek, going for > the same amount. [Don't go off on me - I'm not complaining - just > pointing out an irrationality in the marketplace.] > > Price is determined by marketing and supply and demand - not rarity, > though it is a contributing factor. > Hence Ward didn't value the other "differentiated" meteorites as much, > even though they were grouped together at the time. > > When reading about meteorites in older literature, one will often see > comparisons made between such and so meteorite and a similar meteorite > that was recently found. This is because the classification schemes > at the time didn't provide adequate groupings for the number of > chemically and structurally distinct meteorites being found. They > didn't have "Eucrites," so they compared to known meteorites that were > similar...such a system of categorization would provide for skewed > senses of "rarity" (not that our current system is any better at it). > And since most modern meteorite types were grouped together, rarity > was determined rather differently at the time, with the availability > of a given fall determining "rarity," because "types" were as yet > ill-defined. > Thus what was considered rare a hundred years ago might not fit the > bill today - though, as I noted above, even Ward and Merrill appear to > have bought into the hype surrounding finds with low total known > weights, so I consider their points of view to be at least somewhat > collector/market oriented. > > Regards, > Jason > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Frank Cressy wrote: >> >> Hello all, >> >> Thought this might be of some interest concerning the rarest meteorite, at least from a historical viewpoint. At the beginning of the Twentieth Century, Henry A. Ward thought Nobleborough (1823 Maine fall) was one of the rarest of the meteorites he owned. At this time Ward owned one of the world?s largest meteorite collections that was on par with the national collections in Vienna, London, and Paris. The Ward-Coonley collection (now part of the Field Museum collection in Chicago) contained 603 different locations in 1904 and weighed nearly 2500 kilograms. In a collection catalog of the same year, Ward stated that the Nobleborough meteorite, the third recovered meteorite fall in the U.S., was the ?rarest American aerolite? [stony meteorite]. At this time, there were other stony meteorites with a smaller preserved weight such as Deal (~30 gms.) and Bethlehem (13 gms.), but they were ordinary chondrites. Nobleborough was a rare, >> differentiated stony meteorite, and only four had fallen or been found in the U.S. to that time. Two were eucrites, Nobleborough (~78 gms TPW) and Petersburg (1.8 kg.). Frankfort (stone) (650 gms) was a howardite and Bishopville (5.9 kg.) an aubrite. Most of the Nobleborough mass had been lost and collections had only small specimens. Merrill (1934), in writing about valuation of meteorites, lists three main factors that determined their value; present known weight, petrographic composition, and number of owners of pieces. About Nobleborough, he noted: ?The climax is reached, however, in the case of the stone of Nobleboro [Nobleborough], Maine of which there was originally from four to six pounds, but seventy-eight grams are now accounted for, distributed among eleven collections, seven of which record only ?splinters?.? >> >> Needless to say, most curators were extremely reluctant to part with any of the Nobleborough meteorite from their cabinets and no doubt Ward was ecstatic to have acquired a 19 gram specimen for his. As for myself, I too would certainly like a "splinter" in my collection. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Frank >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From dave at fallingrocks.com Wed Nov 18 16:48:15 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:48:15 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Puerto Lapice update In-Reply-To: <1607370730.710341258485560201.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> References: <1607370730.710341258485560201.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> Message-ID: Whoa...beautiful piece, RW! -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael Johnson Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 2:19 PM To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Puerto Lapice update http://www.rocksfromspace.org/puerto_lapice_spain_meteorite_hunt.html ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 18 18:43:17 2009 From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com (ensoramanda at ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 23:43:17 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Sikhote crust-chondrite / Could this be one of the rarest meteorites found? In-Reply-To: <93aaac890911181337l1f317e84xa6ccff092f0d193b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091118234317.WI9GS.672161.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Hi Jason, All, Not classed as a silicated iron but... I have a nice end cut of Portales valley with about a 2:1 silicate, iron mix that shows an intriguing mix of fusion crusts flowing one into the other. Graham, UK ---- Jason Utas wrote: > Carl, All, > Wow, thanks for that...hum. > Right - I think people are confusing rarity with desirability, market > value, and collector availability, when these are all really distinct > terms. > Right, it's all about O-isotopes now, but I'm not really sure why - it > seems to me that chemistry should be just as important...surely there > could have been parent bodies forming in the same general areas as > each other that were distinct bodies, but that, due to their relative > proximity, have similar or identical O-isotope values. I don't know - > maybe that is how we group things...seems illogical to me, though. > > The trouble with "fusion crust..." > If I recall, a while back, Elton made some strange comments about a > fusion crust having to be composed of siliceous material and > impurities such as oxides etc. He argued that, because the crust that > forms on irons lacks silicates, it is not a true fusion crust. > > The consensus of the list was that the crust that forms on irons may > be chemically distinct from the crust that forms on stones, but it is > for all intensive purposes analogous in pretty much every way to the > stony version, so we might as well call them the same thing. > > I think the reason we don't see much in the way of fusion crust on > silicated irons is because, well, there aren't many fresh silicated > irons around. There are plenty of examples of crusted irons - and > with just over 50 iron falls, some of which are accessible to > collectors, well, they're there to be seen. I don't know how many of > those ~50 iron falls are silicated, but I do know one thing - of all > of them, Udei Station's the only one that's available in any real > quantity, and I've never seen an example with good crust. I don't > think that's because it didn't form a fusion crust - I just think that > such pieces aren't widely available, so they remain out of our field > of view, for the most part... > > Think of Estherville, things like that. They're made of a pretty even > mix of iron and stone and they still form a fusion crust. > > I have a ~4.7g 1/2 end of Bencubbin that shows some pretty spectacular > warty fusion crust...I can get some pictures up if you'd like. I > figure that's about 1/2 stone and metal as well, so...yeah. > > Regards, > Jason > > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 10:26 AM, wrote: > > Jason, I would first like to say that if there were an award for most helpful and kind on this list you would be the winner. > > I truly believe you offer more good information than anyone else on this list. That says a lot because there are a ton of great people on this list. And I want to thank you for all you do. You are a tremendous person. > > > > I think you are 100% correct with this evaluation as you describe it. But, There is something to desirability / Valuable in the formula of "rare". > > Just because something is rare does not mean it is desirable or valuable. To me rarely is irrelevant if not desirable. As you correctly point out. Who cares about your L6. So, to me the rarest meteorite that has those things has got to be the meteorite that every collector wants the most. > > That said it would be a subjective call but for me it would be ALH 84001. > > Lastly, Your reference to Jeff Grossman are correct but I notice that Oxygen isotopes rule in this biz. If the air matches , then that is where it is from and therefore that is what it is. > > A recent example of this is GRA 06128. They are calling it a brachinite based on Isotopes even though it is not related in ?other ways to the brach clan. So, apparently the where it is from needs more specific categories like Mars now has four different categories. > > Anyway, I wanted to thank you for all your information. I know I had never seen actual fusion crust on any iron before yours. I have seen a lot of impostors but yours is truly the real deal. > > Has anyone ever studied that crust to determine what it is made up of? It seems from an earlier thread that the crust must be a mixture of the silicates within this meteorite. Because most other irons without silicates within them do not seem to leave a true fusion crust like your sikhote did? Thanks Carl > > -- > > Carl or Debbie Esparza > > Meteoritemax > > > > > > ---- Jason Utas wrote: > >> Hello Sonny, All, > >> I've often thought about such a term - "the rarest meteorite." > >> The rarest meteorite would of course be smallest ungrouped meteorite, > >> for one could feasibly conceive of a 1-2g unique meteorite. ?When a > >> new type is named, however, a hype generally surrounds it - rather > >> like the olivine diogenite craze of a few years ago, or the confusion > >> surrounding Bencubbinites, and other poorly defined types of > >> meteorites. > >> The simple fact of the matter is that there meteorites are too often > >> categorized by our current system into associations and groups into > >> which they fit rather poorly; Jeff Grossman states as much in the last > >> thread surrounding the poor chemical and isotopic relationships > >> between many basaltic meteorites deemed "eucrites." > >> But regardless of this fact, a simple truth remains. ?There are > >> countless ungrouped meteorites and several Kakangari-type meteorites, > >> so while they may be one of the least common "types," they are by no > >> means examples of the "rarest" meteorite known. > >> Regards, > >> Jason > >> > >> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 6:12 PM, ? wrote: > >> > Hi Bernd and list, > >> > > >> > ?Would this be one of the rarest meteorites ever found? If not, what > >> > meteorite would be? > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > Sonny > >> > > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de > >> > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> > Sent: Tue, Nov 17, 2009 1:12 pm > >> > Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Hi Greg and List, > >> > > >> > Hardly any photos of Kakangaris exist. You'll find one on David > >> > Weir's excellent website: http://www.meteoritestudies.com/ > >> > > >> > Click on chondrites and then scroll down to Kakangari! > >> > > >> > Thin section pics of Kakangari can be found here (on pages 202-205): > >> > > >> > D.S. LAURETTA, M. KILLGORE (2005) A Color Atlas of Meteorites in Thin > >> > Section > >> > (Golden Retriever Publications and Southwest Meteorite Press, ISBN > >> > 0-9720472-1-2, 301 pp.). > >> > > >> > > >> > Best wishes, > >> > > >> > Bernd > >> > > >> > ______________________________________________ > >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >> > Meteorite-list mailing list > >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ______________________________________________ > >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >> > Meteorite-list mailing list > >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> > > >> ______________________________________________ > >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com > >> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Wed Nov 18 19:40:38 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:40:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] MRO HiRISE Images - November 18, 2009 Message-ID: <200911190040.nAJ0ecBh001552@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> MARS RECONNAISSANCE ORBITER HIRISE IMAGES November 18, 2009 o South Polar Carbon Dioxide Ice Cap http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_014261_0930 o Possible Cyclic Bedding in Arabia Terra http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_014033_1910 o Sample South Mid-Latitude Terrain http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_013557_1245 o Gullies in Northern Hemisphere Crater http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_013533_2170 o Proposed MSL Landing Site in Eberswalde Crater http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_013533_1560 All of the HiRISE images are archived here: http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ Information about the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter is online at http://www.nasa.gov/mro. The mission is managed by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a division of the California Institute of Technology, for the NASA Science Mission Directorate, Washington, D.C. Lockheed Martin Space Systems, of Denver, is the prime contractor and built the spacecraft. HiRISE is operated by the University of Arizona. Ball Aerospace and Technologies Corp., of Boulder, Colo., built the HiRISE instrument. From wahlperry at aol.com Wed Nov 18 19:45:42 2009 From: wahlperry at aol.com (wahlperry at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:45:42 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Sikhote crust-chondrite / Could this be one of the rarest meteorites found? In-Reply-To: <20091118234317.WI9GS.672161.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Message-ID: <8CC36C8C1D43DC8-7038-F780@webmail-m011.sysops.aol.com> Hi Jason and all, Thanks for all the replies. From the sounds of things there is no way to tell what the rarest meteorite might be. This might not be the rarest meteorite, but my favorite is the Portales Valley that we found a couple years ago. Thanks, Sonny -----Original Message----- From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com To: Meteorite-list ; Jason Utas Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:43 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Sikhote crust-chondrite / Could this be one of the rarest meteorites found? Hi Jason, All,Not classed as a silicated iron but...I have a nice end cut of Portales valley with about a 2:1 silicate, iron mix that shows an intriguing mix of fusion crusts flowing one into the other.Graham, UK---- Jason Utas wrote: > Carl, All,> Wow, thanks for that...hum.> Right - I think people are confusing rarity with desirability, market> value, and collector availability, when these are all really distinct> terms.> Right, it's all about O-isotopes now, but I'm not really sure why - it> seems to me that chemistry should be just as important...surely there> could have been parent bodies forming in the same general areas as> each other that were distinct bodies, but that, due to their relative> proximity, have similar or identical O-isotope values. I don't know -> maybe that is how we group things...seems illogical to me, though.> > The trouble with "fusion crust..."> If I recall, a while back, Elton made some strange comments about a> fusion crust having to be composed of siliceous material and> impurities such as oxides etc. He argued that, because the crust that> forms on irons lacks silicates, it is not a true fusion crust.> > The consensus of the list was that the crust that forms on irons may> be chemically distinct from the crust that forms on stones, but it is> for all intensive purposes analogous in pretty much every way to the> stony version, so we might as well call them the same thing.> > I think the reason we don't see much in the way of fusion crust on> silicated irons is because, well, there aren't many fresh silicated> irons around. There are plenty of examples of crusted irons - and> with just over 50 iron falls, some of which are accessible to> collectors, well, they're there to be seen. I don't know how many of> those ~50 iron falls are silicated, but I do know one thing - of all> of them, Udei Station's the only one that's available in any real> quantity, and I've never seen an example with good crust. I don't> think that's because it didn't form a fusion crust - I just think that> such pieces aren't widely available, so they remain out of our field> of view, for the most part...> > Think of Estherville, things like that. They're made of a pretty even> mix of iron and stone and they still form a fusion crust.> > I have a ~4.7g 1/2 end of Bencubbin that shows some pretty spectacular> warty fusion crust...I can get some pictures up if you'd like. I> figure that's about 1/2 stone and metal as well, so...yeah.> > Regards,> Jason> > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 10:26 AM, wrote:> > Jason, I would first like to say that if there were an award for most helpful and kind on this list you would be the winner.> > I truly believe you offer more good information than anyone else on this list. That says a lot because there are a ton of great people on this list. And I want to thank you for all you do. You are a tremendous person.> >> > I think you are 100% correct with this evaluation as you describe it. But, There is something to desirability / Valuable in the formula of "rare".> > Just because something is rare does not mean it is desirable or valuable. To me rarely is irrelevant if not desirable. As you correctly point out. Who cares about your L6. So, to me the rarest meteorite that has those things has got to be the meteorite that every collector wants the most.> > That said it would be a subjective call but for me it would be ALH 84001.> > Lastly, Your reference to Jeff Grossman are correct but I notice that Oxygen isotopes rule in this biz. If the air matches , then that is where it is from and therefore that is what it is.> > A recent example of this is GRA 06128. They are calling it a brachinite based on Isotopes even though it is not related in ?other ways to the brach clan. So, apparently the where it is from needs more specific categories like Mars now has four different categories.> > Anyway, I wanted to thank you for all your information. I know I had never seen actual fusion crust on any iron before yours. I have seen a lot of impostors but yours is truly the real deal.> > Has anyone ever studied that crust to determine what it is made up of? It seems from an earlier thread that the crust must be a mixture of the silicates within this meteorite. Because most other irons without silicates within them do not seem to leave a true fusion crust like your sikhote did? Thanks Carl> > --> > Carl or Debbie Esparza> > Meteoritemax> >> >> > ---- Jason Utas wrote:> >> Hello Sonny, All,> >> I've often thought about such a term - "the rarest meteorite."> >> The rarest meteorite would of course be smallest ungrouped meteorite,> >> for one could feasibly conceive of a 1-2g unique meteorite. ?When a> >> new type is named, however, a hype generally surrounds it - rather> >> like the olivine diogenite craze of a few years ago, or the confusion> >> surrounding Bencubbinites, and other poorly defined types of> >> meteorites.> >> The simple fact of the matter is that there meteorites are too often> >> categorized by our current system into associations and groups into> >> which they fit rather poorly; Jeff Grossman states as much in the last> >> thread surrounding the poor chemical and isotopic relationships> >> between many basaltic meteorites deemed "eucrites."> >> But regardless of this fact, a simple truth remains. ?There are> >> countless ungrouped meteorites and several Kakangari-type meteorites,> >> so while they may be one of the least common "types," they are by no> >> means examples of the "rarest" meteorite known.> >> Regards,> >> Jason> >>> >> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 6:12 PM, ? wrote:> >> > Hi Bernd and list,> >> >> >> > ?Would this be one of the rarest meteorites ever found? If not, what> >> > meteorite would be?> >> >> >> > Thanks,> >> > Sonny> >> >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message-----> >> > From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de> >> > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> >> > Sent: Tue, Nov 17, 2009 1:12 pm> >> > Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Hi Greg and List,> >> >> >> > Hardly any photos of Kakangaris exist. You'll find one on David> >> > Weir's excellent website: http://www.meteoritestudies.com/> >> >> >> > Click on chondrites and then scroll down to Kakangari!> >> >> >> > Thin section pics of Kakangari can be found here (on pages 202-205):> >> >> >> > D.S. LAURETTA, M. KILLGORE (2005) A Color Atlas of Meteorites in Thin> >> > Section> >> > (Golden Retriever Publications and Southwest Meteorite Press, ISBN> >> > 0-9720472-1-2, 301 pp.).> >> >> >> >> >> > Best wishes,> >> >> >> > Bernd> >> >> >> > ______________________________________________> >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com> >> > Meteorite-list mailing list> >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ______________________________________________> >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com> >> > Meteorite-list mailing list> >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list> >> >> >> ______________________________________________> >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com> >> Meteorite-list mailing list> >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list> >> ______________________________________________> http://www.meteoritecentral.com> Meteorite-list mailing list> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list______________________________________________http://www.meteoritecentral.comMeteorite-list mailing listMeteorite-list at meteoritecentral.comhttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/li stinfo/meteorite-list From mmurray at montrose.net Wed Nov 18 20:36:41 2009 From: mmurray at montrose.net (Michael Murray) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:36:41 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] silicated plessitic irons? Message-ID: <65FD2644-A2B6-4C71-A824-83ED5EDAA8A1@montrose.net> Dear List, Does someone have an example of a silicated plessitic iron besides Steinbach or are there others known? Mike in CO From raremeteorites at yahoo.com Wed Nov 18 21:00:20 2009 From: raremeteorites at yahoo.com (Adam Hupe) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:00:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <603902.58014.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greetings from sunny, warm and most friendly Laughlin, Nevada At least if it fell in southern Nevada as some have proposed, you could search in shorts and flip-flops. I have my fingers crossed and the Mobile Meteorite Command Center is in a constant state of readiness. Wishful thinking, Maybe? Adam ----- Original Message ---- From: "Impactika at aol.com" To: mrmeteorite at gmail.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 12:46:46 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 And don't forget your snow shovel. You might need it! Anne M. Black _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) _IMPACTIKA at aol.com_ (mailto:IMPACTIKA at aol.com) Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) In a message dated 11/18/2009 11:19:44 AM Mountain Standard Time, mrmeteorite at gmail.com writes: Greg, My boots are on and bags are packed. Hopefully will be leaving soon..... Rock On! Ruben Garcia ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From raremeteorites at yahoo.com Wed Nov 18 21:17:23 2009 From: raremeteorites at yahoo.com (Adam Hupe) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:17:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 In-Reply-To: <603902.58014.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <603902.58014.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <581591.63456.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sorry Anne, I am sorry to hear about all of the snow in Colorado and the storms up in the Northwest. It is just that I could do nothing here all last summer due to the excessive heat. Several weeks where it got over 120 degrees Fahrenheit and we were almost completely immobile while the locals who were acclimatized think nothing of it. Here is an image of a Las Vegas weather forecast. Note the snowman in the image at 99 Degrees, and to think Laughlin usually runs 10 degrees hotter than Vegas! Check this out: http://themeteoritesite.com/WeatherReport.jpg Best Regards, Adam ----- Original Message ---- From: Adam Hupe To: Adam Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 6:00:20 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 Greetings from sunny, warm and most friendly Laughlin, Nevada At least if it fell in southern Nevada as some have proposed, you could search in shorts and flip-flops. I have my fingers crossed and the Mobile Meteorite Command Center is in a constant state of readiness. Wishful thinking, Maybe? Adam ----- Original Message ---- From: "Impactika at aol.com" To: mrmeteorite at gmail.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 12:46:46 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Utah, Wyoming, Idaho Bolide 18NOV09 And don't forget your snow shovel. You might need it! Anne M. Black _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) _IMPACTIKA at aol.com_ (mailto:IMPACTIKA at aol.com) Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) In a message dated 11/18/2009 11:19:44 AM Mountain Standard Time, mrmeteorite at gmail.com writes: Greg, My boots are on and bags are packed. Hopefully will be leaving soon..... Rock On! Ruben Garcia ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From cdtucson at cox.net Wed Nov 18 13:26:45 2009 From: cdtucson at cox.net (cdtucson at cox.net) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:26:45 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Sikhote crust-chondrite / Could this be one of the rarest meteorites found? In-Reply-To: <93aaac890911171832t1247e9eet1cd03b02bd686425@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091118132645.VHVV4.230300.imail@fed1rmwml35> Jason, I would first like to say that if there were an award for most helpful and kind on this list you would be the winner. I truly believe you offer more good information than anyone else on this list. That says a lot because there are a ton of great people on this list. And I want to thank you for all you do. You are a tremendous person. I think you are 100% correct with this evaluation as you describe it. But, There is something to desirability / Valuable in the formula of "rare". Just because something is rare does not mean it is desirable or valuable. To me rarely is irrelevant if not desirable. As you correctly point out. Who cares about your L6. So, to me the rarest meteorite that has those things has got to be the meteorite that every collector wants the most. That said it would be a subjective call but for me it would be ALH 84001. Lastly, Your reference to Jeff Grossman are correct but I notice that Oxygen isotopes rule in this biz. If the air matches , then that is where it is from and therefore that is what it is. A recent example of this is GRA 06128. They are calling it a brachinite based on Isotopes even though it is not related in other ways to the brach clan. So, apparently the where it is from needs more specific categories like Mars now has four different categories. Anyway, I wanted to thank you for all your information. I know I had never seen actual fusion crust on any iron before yours. I have seen a lot of impostors but yours is truly the real deal. Has anyone ever studied that crust to determine what it is made up of? It seems from an earlier thread that the crust must be a mixture of the silicates within this meteorite. Because most other irons without silicates within them do not seem to leave a true fusion crust like your sikhote did? Thanks Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax ---- Jason Utas wrote: > Hello Sonny, All, > I've often thought about such a term - "the rarest meteorite." > The rarest meteorite would of course be smallest ungrouped meteorite, > for one could feasibly conceive of a 1-2g unique meteorite. When a > new type is named, however, a hype generally surrounds it - rather > like the olivine diogenite craze of a few years ago, or the confusion > surrounding Bencubbinites, and other poorly defined types of > meteorites. > The simple fact of the matter is that there meteorites are too often > categorized by our current system into associations and groups into > which they fit rather poorly; Jeff Grossman states as much in the last > thread surrounding the poor chemical and isotopic relationships > between many basaltic meteorites deemed "eucrites." > But regardless of this fact, a simple truth remains. There are > countless ungrouped meteorites and several Kakangari-type meteorites, > so while they may be one of the least common "types," they are by no > means examples of the "rarest" meteorite known. > Regards, > Jason > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 6:12 PM, wrote: > > Hi Bernd and list, > > > > ?Would this be one of the rarest meteorites ever found? If not, what > > meteorite would be? > > > > Thanks, > > Sonny > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de > > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Sent: Tue, Nov 17, 2009 1:12 pm > > Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Greg and List, > > > > Hardly any photos of Kakangaris exist. You'll find one on David > > Weir's excellent website: http://www.meteoritestudies.com/ > > > > Click on chondrites and then scroll down to Kakangari! > > > > Thin section pics of Kakangari can be found here (on pages 202-205): > > > > D.S. LAURETTA, M. KILLGORE (2005) A Color Atlas of Meteorites in Thin > > Section > > (Golden Retriever Publications and Southwest Meteorite Press, ISBN > > 0-9720472-1-2, 301 pp.). > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Bernd > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From loveab at appstate.edu Wed Nov 18 22:00:44 2009 From: loveab at appstate.edu (Anthony Love) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:00:44 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Looking for help with a classification Message-ID: <4B04B4DC.2040400@appstate.edu> Hi All, My name is Anthony Love. I work in the Department of Geology at Appalachian State. I have a meteorite I am trying to classify, but it is giving me some challenges. I wanted to ask the list if there were some scientists who would be willing to collaborate on this classification or possibly answer some questions and look at some photos? I have some of the petrography done and a bit of the major element chemistry is completed. Primarily at this point I have a data from olivines in the differing clasts and within chondrules in the matirx. The rock appears to be a breccia containing up to possibly 6 different types of clasts with a clastic matrix containing chondrules. Some of my difficulties are: -one of the clasts is enigmatic (at least to my experience). -the Fa #s for all clasts, chondrules and matrix differ by less than one percent from another. Are their granulitic breccias of chondritic material? When searching literature I can only find granulitic lunar breccias. -One clast type appears to be a low petrologic grade chondrite, but due to metamorphic homogenization, I am unable to tease out whether it is a type 3 or 4. We have a new CL microscope on the way, but I was wondering if there were other chemical methods I might look towards in the mean time. Most of my capability with elemental analysis will come from major element data derived by EDAX. Please feel free to reply to me via email. I can send photos and data to interested parties. Thanks so much in advance for any help. respectfully, Anthony Love loveab at appstate.edu From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 18 22:30:39 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (MEM) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:30:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not In-Reply-To: <4B02E1E6.4010609@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: <544927.16157.qm@web55203.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone says that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they have a very fragile magentite micro-crystal "film" and they have an ablation surface but, they can't by definition have a "fusion crust" and no matter whom the expert quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to have a silicate source to for the glass component of the crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface, and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion crust. I have some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust remnants. If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust on (non-silicate bearing) irons then show me the "crust"...can't?..ok show me the glass? .... right then-- no photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???......And while there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft wavy lines of briefly melted metal that was aligned to aerodynamic vectors--This does not fusion crust make. Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no matter how often an untruth is repeated it doesn't become "truth" by majority belief. But science, being a human endeavor, sometimes can find itself "off track" and when it does it accepts the error and gets back on track. Elton From michael at rocksfromspace.org Wed Nov 18 22:55:20 2009 From: michael at rocksfromspace.org (Michael Johnson) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:55:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 19, 2009 Message-ID: <1461606936.971801258602920056.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_19_2009.html From damoclid at yahoo.com Wed Nov 18 23:49:30 2009 From: damoclid at yahoo.com (Richard Kowalski) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:49:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 19, 2009 In-Reply-To: <1461606936.971801258602920056.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> Message-ID: <775733.81008.qm@web33905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Wow! Looks like a smiling face looking right from the right side. I see Greg is offering some nice slices on ebay too... Cool stone Greg! -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA #1081 --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Michael Johnson wrote: > From: Michael Johnson > Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 19, 2009 > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 8:55 PM > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_19_2009.html > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From fujmon at mac.com Wed Nov 18 23:55:01 2009 From: fujmon at mac.com (Gary Fujihara) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:55:01 -1000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 19, 2009 In-Reply-To: <775733.81008.qm@web33905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <775733.81008.qm@web33905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yeh Richard, good eye. In fact, the very slice featured on today?s RFSPoD is on ebay here: http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-NWA-4470-Anomalous-Basaltic-Eucrite-Meteorite-17-8g_W0QQitemZ350281113275QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item518e619ebb#ht_1028wt_909 ... along with other slices, endcuts and micros. gary On Nov 18, 2009, at 6:49 PM, Richard Kowalski wrote: > Wow! > > Looks like a smiling face looking right from the right side. > > I see Greg is offering some nice slices on ebay too... > > Cool stone Greg! > > -- > Richard Kowalski > http://fullmoonphotography.net > IMCA #1081 > > > --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Michael Johnson wrote: > >> From: Michael Johnson >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 19, 2009 >> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 8:55 PM >> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_19_2009.html >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Gary Fujihara AstroDay Institute 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720 (808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com http://astroday.net From eric at meteoritesusa.com Thu Nov 19 00:48:16 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:48:16 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery Message-ID: <4B04DC20.3050103@meteoritesusa.com> http://www.hutchnews.com/Localregional/spacerock From info at meteorites.com.au Thu Nov 19 01:41:04 2009 From: info at meteorites.com.au (Jeff Kuyken) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:41:04 +1100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Sikhote crust-chondrite / Could this be one of the rarest meteorites found? In-Reply-To: <20091118234317.WI9GS.672161.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> References: <20091118234317.WI9GS.672161.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Message-ID: <711FEC7CFB5445F1B5AC1CFF043AC768@JeffPC> Hi Graham, I think that's a good example as I have a small endcut of PV that shows something a little similar too. I don't personally know of any meteorite that hasn't had some sort of fusion crust. I would expect silicated irons to have a different fusion crust in the different areas. A little like impact melts too which also seem to get varying zones and can be a good indication of what you have. But the coolest crust of all... Aubrites like Aubres and Norton County! They're something special! Cheers, Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Meteorite-list" ; "Jason Utas" Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Sikhote crust-chondrite / Could this be one of the rarest meteorites found? > Hi Jason, All, > > Not classed as a silicated iron but... > > I have a nice end cut of Portales valley with about a 2:1 silicate, iron > mix that shows an intriguing mix of fusion crusts flowing one into the > other. > > Graham, UK > > > ---- Jason Utas wrote: >> Carl, All, >> Wow, thanks for that...hum. >> Right - I think people are confusing rarity with desirability, market >> value, and collector availability, when these are all really distinct >> terms. >> Right, it's all about O-isotopes now, but I'm not really sure why - it >> seems to me that chemistry should be just as important...surely there >> could have been parent bodies forming in the same general areas as >> each other that were distinct bodies, but that, due to their relative >> proximity, have similar or identical O-isotope values. I don't know - >> maybe that is how we group things...seems illogical to me, though. >> >> The trouble with "fusion crust..." >> If I recall, a while back, Elton made some strange comments about a >> fusion crust having to be composed of siliceous material and >> impurities such as oxides etc. He argued that, because the crust that >> forms on irons lacks silicates, it is not a true fusion crust. >> >> The consensus of the list was that the crust that forms on irons may >> be chemically distinct from the crust that forms on stones, but it is >> for all intensive purposes analogous in pretty much every way to the >> stony version, so we might as well call them the same thing. >> >> I think the reason we don't see much in the way of fusion crust on >> silicated irons is because, well, there aren't many fresh silicated >> irons around. There are plenty of examples of crusted irons - and >> with just over 50 iron falls, some of which are accessible to >> collectors, well, they're there to be seen. I don't know how many of >> those ~50 iron falls are silicated, but I do know one thing - of all >> of them, Udei Station's the only one that's available in any real >> quantity, and I've never seen an example with good crust. I don't >> think that's because it didn't form a fusion crust - I just think that >> such pieces aren't widely available, so they remain out of our field >> of view, for the most part... >> >> Think of Estherville, things like that. They're made of a pretty even >> mix of iron and stone and they still form a fusion crust. >> >> I have a ~4.7g 1/2 end of Bencubbin that shows some pretty spectacular >> warty fusion crust...I can get some pictures up if you'd like. I >> figure that's about 1/2 stone and metal as well, so...yeah. >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> >> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 10:26 AM, wrote: >> > Jason, I would first like to say that if there were an award for most >> > helpful and kind on this list you would be the winner. >> > I truly believe you offer more good information than anyone else on >> > this list. That says a lot because there are a ton of great people on >> > this list. And I want to thank you for all you do. You are a tremendous >> > person. >> > >> > I think you are 100% correct with this evaluation as you describe it. >> > But, There is something to desirability / Valuable in the formula of >> > "rare". >> > Just because something is rare does not mean it is desirable or >> > valuable. To me rarely is irrelevant if not desirable. As you correctly >> > point out. Who cares about your L6. So, to me the rarest meteorite that >> > has those things has got to be the meteorite that every collector wants >> > the most. >> > That said it would be a subjective call but for me it would be ALH >> > 84001. >> > Lastly, Your reference to Jeff Grossman are correct but I notice that >> > Oxygen isotopes rule in this biz. If the air matches , then that is >> > where it is from and therefore that is what it is. >> > A recent example of this is GRA 06128. They are calling it a brachinite >> > based on Isotopes even though it is not related in other ways to the >> > brach clan. So, apparently the where it is from needs more specific >> > categories like Mars now has four different categories. >> > Anyway, I wanted to thank you for all your information. I know I had >> > never seen actual fusion crust on any iron before yours. I have seen a >> > lot of impostors but yours is truly the real deal. >> > Has anyone ever studied that crust to determine what it is made up of? >> > It seems from an earlier thread that the crust must be a mixture of the >> > silicates within this meteorite. Because most other irons without >> > silicates within them do not seem to leave a true fusion crust like >> > your sikhote did? Thanks Carl >> > -- >> > Carl or Debbie Esparza >> > Meteoritemax >> > >> > >> > ---- Jason Utas wrote: >> >> Hello Sonny, All, >> >> I've often thought about such a term - "the rarest meteorite." >> >> The rarest meteorite would of course be smallest ungrouped meteorite, >> >> for one could feasibly conceive of a 1-2g unique meteorite. When a >> >> new type is named, however, a hype generally surrounds it - rather >> >> like the olivine diogenite craze of a few years ago, or the confusion >> >> surrounding Bencubbinites, and other poorly defined types of >> >> meteorites. >> >> The simple fact of the matter is that there meteorites are too often >> >> categorized by our current system into associations and groups into >> >> which they fit rather poorly; Jeff Grossman states as much in the last >> >> thread surrounding the poor chemical and isotopic relationships >> >> between many basaltic meteorites deemed "eucrites." >> >> But regardless of this fact, a simple truth remains. There are >> >> countless ungrouped meteorites and several Kakangari-type meteorites, >> >> so while they may be one of the least common "types," they are by no >> >> means examples of the "rarest" meteorite known. >> >> Regards, >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 6:12 PM, wrote: >> >> > Hi Bernd and list, >> >> > >> >> > Would this be one of the rarest meteorites ever found? If not, what >> >> > meteorite would be? >> >> > >> >> > Thanks, >> >> > Sonny >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de >> >> > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> >> > Sent: Tue, Nov 17, 2009 1:12 pm >> >> > Subject: [meteorite-list] Photo of a K-chondrite >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Hi Greg and List, >> >> > >> >> > Hardly any photos of Kakangaris exist. You'll find one on David >> >> > Weir's excellent website: http://www.meteoritestudies.com/ >> >> > >> >> > Click on chondrites and then scroll down to Kakangari! >> >> > >> >> > Thin section pics of Kakangari can be found here (on pages 202-205): >> >> > >> >> > D.S. LAURETTA, M. KILLGORE (2005) A Color Atlas of Meteorites in >> >> > Thin >> >> > Section >> >> > (Golden Retriever Publications and Southwest Meteorite Press, ISBN >> >> > 0-9720472-1-2, 301 pp.). >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Best wishes, >> >> > >> >> > Bernd >> >> > >> >> > ______________________________________________ >> >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> >> > Meteorite-list mailing list >> >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ______________________________________________ >> >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> >> > Meteorite-list mailing list >> >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> > >> >> ______________________________________________ >> >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Thu Nov 19 06:29:42 2009 From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com (ensoramanda at ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:29:42 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not In-Reply-To: <544927.16157.qm@web55203.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20091119112942.558H0.942523.root@web02-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Hi Elton, I think it is that thin coating of magnetite that most folks are calling a fusion crust on fresh irons...what else can it be called? As you say, unfortunately it is quite fragile and on most irons it flakes or comes off after very little time in our climate, so most of those wonderful looking sikhote alins at the shows have actually been cleaned and treated and have lost the magnetite 'fusion crust'. I have seen many with remnants which you can see still peeling off but rarely in their pristine matt grey original state. Also, as you say, those flow lines can be still present mostly underneath when the magnetite/crust has gone but are I think much more detailed and sharp when the magnetite coating is fresh. If you know of a different name/term to call the magnetite coating on fresh irons other than fusion crust then I am sure we would all like to know what we should call it? Regards, Graham ---- MEM wrote: > Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone says that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they have a very fragile magentite micro-crystal "film" and they have an ablation surface but, they can't by definition have a "fusion crust" and no matter whom the expert quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to have a silicate source to for the glass component of the crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. > > Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface, and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion crust. I have some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust remnants. > > If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust on (non-silicate bearing) irons then show me the "crust"...can't?..ok show me the glass? .... right then-- no photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???......And while there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft wavy lines of briefly melted metal that was aligned to aerodynamic vectors--This does not fusion crust make. > > Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no matter how often an untruth is repeated it doesn't become "truth" by majority belief. But science, being a human endeavor, sometimes can find itself "off track" and when it does it accepts the error and gets back on track. > > Elton > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Thu Nov 19 06:34:25 2009 From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com (ensoramanda at ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:34:25 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery In-Reply-To: <4B04DC20.3050103@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: <20091119113425.986H6.942658.root@web02-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Hi All, Strange....as there is all this talk at the moment about fresh iron 'fusion crust' then this does not look like a fresh iron fall but just like one of the treated sikhote alins I just mentioned in my last post!!! Dubious! Graham ---- Meteorites USA wrote: > > > http://www.hutchnews.com/Localregional/spacerock > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From meteoritekid at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 06:45:10 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 03:45:10 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery In-Reply-To: <20091119113425.986H6.942658.root@web02-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> References: <4B04DC20.3050103@meteoritesusa.com> <20091119113425.986H6.942658.root@web02-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Message-ID: <93aaac890911190345t37561e55v1c4e3d2768dc2fa1@mail.gmail.com> Graham, All, Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the iron - well, that and think about it - a 47g meteorite just made a foot-deep crater, sending material five feet into the air? The whole story is ridiculous - such a stone should have made a little dent in the ground (we're talking a inch or two) - it wouldn't be unremarkable if someone standing fifteen feet away didn't notice it fall, or simply assumed someone had thrown a rock at them. This sounds like another sensationalist looking for their moment of fame. Bah. Jason On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 3:34 AM, wrote: > Hi All, > > Strange....as there is all this talk at the moment about fresh iron 'fusion crust' then this does not look like a fresh iron fall but just like one of the treated sikhote alins I just mentioned in my last post!!! > > Dubious! > > Graham > > ---- Meteorites USA wrote: >> >> >> http://www.hutchnews.com/Localregional/spacerock >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From dave at fallingrocks.com Thu Nov 19 07:03:38 2009 From: dave at fallingrocks.com (Dave Gheesling) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 07:03:38 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery In-Reply-To: <20091119113425.986H6.942658.root@web02-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> References: <4B04DC20.3050103@meteoritesusa.com> <20091119113425.986H6.942658.root@web02-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Message-ID: <2309B9BD0981462DAD16D5EBAB429045@meteorroom> Yes, Graham. Looks like an NFW to me... Cheers, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 6:34 AM To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; Meteorites USA Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery Hi All, Strange....as there is all this talk at the moment about fresh iron 'fusion crust' then this does not look like a fresh iron fall but just like one of the treated sikhote alins I just mentioned in my last post!!! Dubious! Graham ---- Meteorites USA wrote: > > > http://www.hutchnews.com/Localregional/spacerock > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Thu Nov 19 07:21:01 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:21:01 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not In-Reply-To: <544927.16157.qm@web55203.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <4B02E1E6.4010609@meteoritesusa.com> <544927.16157.qm@web55203.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000d01ca6912$c27e5ef0$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> Unlike in politics and public opinion (and sometimes in science), in meteoritics it sometimes can be more difficult to adhere to theories/legends, if one gets samples in ones very hands, which exhibit the opposite of that, the theory postulates. If you ever had an early picked Sikhote at hand, or if you had taken from Andi Gren's Boguslavka slices (a fall, who simply hadn't enough time in field, to develop a magnetite, wuestite, limonite or whatever -ite weathering crust), you would be very surprised. Cause they don't display that ominous blue-ish flimsy luster, which is often reported as fusion crust, but a thick and fat layer of a discernibly different matter than the material beneath, of a dark colour and rough to silky surface. I never believed in iron fusion crusts neither, but when I got in these freshly picked up observed falls, I was disabused. Main problem in that question is, as it was correctly mentioned here, that we simply have so few pristine samples of fresh iron falls and that most irons we get in our collections arrive with weathered or artificially cleaned surfaces. Now you may argue about the word "crust" as a (pseudo-)scientific term... well for me scientific terms are best, when they keep most of their meaning they have in their common use in the language. And there crust - meanst for me a layer on the outside of an object. .....and we have the problem, that there exist these freshly fallen lumps with that strange crust. Shall we hide them in the deepest corner of our drawers, cause they don't fit in the axiom, that fusion crusts are fusion crusts only, when silicates are melting? Sometimes, if the results don't fit into a theory, one has to think about modifying the theory, Else there wouldn't be no meteorites in our sense at all, Nada, Niente, Nix, Nimic, cause we all would know that they are products of our Aristotelian atmosphere, solified accumulations of terrestrial vapours and probably created by lightning strokes, wouldn't we? Best! Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von MEM Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. November 2009 04:31 An: Meteorites USA; metlist Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone says that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they have a very fragile magentite micro-crystal "film" and they have an ablation surface but, they can't by definition have a "fusion crust" and no matter whom the expert quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to have a silicate source to for the glass component of the crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface, and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion crust. I have some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust remnants. If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust on (non-silicate bearing) irons then show me the "crust"...can't?..ok show me the glass? .... right then-- no photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???......And while there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft wavy lines of briefly melted metal that was aligned to aerodynamic vectors--This does not fusion crust make. Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no matter how often an untruth is repeated it doesn't become "truth" by majority belief. But science, being a human endeavor, sometimes can find itself "off track" and when it does it accepts the error and gets back on track. Elton ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Thu Nov 19 07:40:42 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:40:42 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteoritediscovery In-Reply-To: <2309B9BD0981462DAD16D5EBAB429045@meteorroom> References: <4B04DC20.3050103@meteoritesusa.com><20091119113425.986H6.942658.root@web02-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> <2309B9BD0981462DAD16D5EBAB429045@meteorroom> Message-ID: <001601ca6915$82310200$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> Media, media - who knows. Picture is, pardon, looks like a Sikhote. Dirt fountain - luminous phenomenon observed by the boy - deep pit - not possible. Seems you have there in USA your own Gerrit. Remember, the pupil from Germany, who claimed to have been hit by a meteorite. ...you never heard again from that case. I'm sure, with the success of the Meteorite-Men series, we will read about a lot more such cases in future ! (Btw, we have in Germany also a Sikhote misrepresented as a German find and STILL listed in the Bulletin: Inningen. For the fake they were even so stupid to take a shrapnel...). Best! Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Dave Gheesling Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. November 2009 13:04 An: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; 'Meteorites USA' Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteoritediscovery Yes, Graham. Looks like an NFW to me... Cheers, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -----Original Message----- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 6:34 AM To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; Meteorites USA Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery Hi All, Strange....as there is all this talk at the moment about fresh iron 'fusion crust' then this does not look like a fresh iron fall but just like one of the treated sikhote alins I just mentioned in my last post!!! Dubious! Graham ---- Meteorites USA wrote: > > > http://www.hutchnews.com/Localregional/spacerock > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Thu Nov 19 09:04:22 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 06:04:22 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not In-Reply-To: <544927.16157.qm@web55203.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <4B02E1E6.4010609@meteoritesusa.com>, <544927.16157.qm@web55203.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Elton: Take a look - the Smithsonian classifies the meteorites from Antarctica and some of the Irons are described as having a fusion crust. Greg S. http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/samples/petdes.cfm?sample=MIL07666 Sample Number? ??? MIL 07666 Pairing ??? MIL 07666 Newsletter ??? 31,2 Location ??? Miller Range Field Number ??? 18159 Dimensions ??? 5.0 x 2.9 x 1.4 Weight ??? 96.25 Original Classification ??? Iron (IIAB) Macroscopic Description - Cari Corrigan and Linda Welzenbach This lozenge-shaped meteorite is flight oriented with a slight melt flange on the top side. The bottom or flight surface is finely pitted, the top side smoother but with sporadic, deeper regmaglypts. Fusion crust is 100% and exhibits mild oxidation in the form of iridescence and minor halos. Thin Section Description - Tim McCoy, Cari Corrigan and Linda Welzenbach The meteorite was examined from a cut and etched surface, which bisected one end or nose of the specimen. A thin fusion crust is preserved over most of the meteorite, and gradational heat alteration zone of approximately 1.0-2 mm thick underlies the fusion crust on the bottom or flight side, and is less than 0.3 mm thick on the top side. A prominent coarse a2 structure is found throughout. The section exhibits subequant grains ranging up to 1 mm in size which meet at 120? triple j ---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:30:39 -0800 > From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com > To: eric at meteoritesusa.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not > > Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone says that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they have a very fragile magentite micro-crystal "film" and they have an ablation surface but, they can't by definition have a "fusion crust" and no matter whom the expert quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to have a silicate source to for the glass component of the crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. > > Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface, and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion crust. I have some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust remnants. > > If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust on (non-silicate bearing) irons then show me the "crust"...can't?..ok show me the glass? .... right then-- no photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???......And while there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft wavy lines of briefly melted metal that was aligned to aerodynamic vectors--This does not fusion crust make. > > Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no matter how often an untruth is repeated it doesn't become "truth" by majority belief. But science, being a human endeavor, sometimes can find itself "off track" and when it does it accepts the error and gets back on track. > > Elton > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 From fujmon at mac.com Thu Nov 19 10:56:59 2009 From: fujmon at mac.com (Gary Fujihara) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 05:56:59 -1000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery In-Reply-To: <93aaac890911190345t37561e55v1c4e3d2768dc2fa1@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B04DC20.3050103@meteoritesusa.com> <20091119113425.986H6.942658.root@web02-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> <93aaac890911190345t37561e55v1c4e3d2768dc2fa1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <260307C4-A301-474B-ACC3-1B980BF23447@mac.com> Aloha Jason, Agreed that this boy?s story sounds bogus. But the last sentence of the story explains things clearly. "...the fifth-grader said he still wants to be an engineer and build things." Well he certainly engineered a fine fairy tale. Guess he couldn't wait for the "Tell a Fairy Tale Day", held officially on Feb 26 in the US: http://www.gone-ta-pott.com/tell_a_fairy_tale_day.html Cheers, gary On Nov 19, 2009, at 1:45 AM, Jason Utas wrote: > Graham, All, > Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the iron - well, that and think > about it - a 47g meteorite just made a foot-deep crater, sending > material five feet into the air? > The whole story is ridiculous - such a stone should have made a little > dent in the ground (we're talking a inch or two) - it wouldn't be > unremarkable if someone standing fifteen feet away didn't notice it > fall, or simply assumed someone had thrown a rock at them. > This sounds like another sensationalist looking for their moment of fame. > Bah. > Jason > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 3:34 AM, wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> Strange....as there is all this talk at the moment about fresh iron 'fusion crust' then this does not look like a fresh iron fall but just like one of the treated sikhote alins I just mentioned in my last post!!! >> >> Dubious! >> >> Graham >> >> ---- Meteorites USA wrote: >>> >>> >>> http://www.hutchnews.com/Localregional/spacerock >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Gary Fujihara AstroDay Institute 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720 (808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com http://astroday.net From fujmon at mac.com Thu Nov 19 11:04:20 2009 From: fujmon at mac.com (Gary Fujihara) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 06:04:20 -1000 Subject: [meteorite-list] AD-Nifty November Novelties Message-ID: <20C093AC-541C-4B99-9924-C7B146E3A693@mac.com> Aloha listees, In addition to my weekly ebay auctions, which I?ll announce later in this email, I have some rare, very freshly crusted Benguerir individuals and fragments at far below current market, as well as some affordable crusted martian individuals for sale - contact me offlist for weights and prices. Those that are not sold directly, will be offered on ebay in ensuing weeks at higher prices. So you wanna eat Turkey with a side of meteorites this Thanksgiving? I have some delicious deals for you on ebay, with auctions ending this Saturday, November 21, starting at 8:42 am Pacific / 11:42 am Eastern / 3:42 pm London. NWA x 17.03g fresh fusion crust, current bid at 99? NWA x 3.30g oriented with lipping, currently at 99? Juancheng H5 17.02g oriented, affordable at $59 Chergach H5 12.45g 94% FC, currently at $6.50 Allende CV3 3.47g crusted fragment, bid at $19.99 NWA x poss CV3 12.27g Fresh, bid at $24 Camel Donga Euc 2.04g AAA flowlines, ridges, $41 Millbillillie Euc 2.71g AAA oriented Perfect, $31 Tatahouine Dio 1.76g frag, current bid at $1.30 Norton County Aub 1.0g crusted frags, bid at $9.99 Bilanga Dio 1.15g crusted frags, currently at $14.50 NWA 2932 Mes 12.10g slice, steal it at $15.50 NWA 5189 L4 26.15g slice, almost free at $3.25 Sikhote Alin IIAB 11.89g oriented, no bids at $19.99 Mantle Xenolith RED CRYSTALS, 681g, $49 http://shop.ebay.com/fujmon/m.html I already gave you a headsup on what I?ll be offering the following week ending November 28, so stay tuned. And remember that you can count on the Big Kahuna to provide you with the highest quality authentic meteorites at the lowest prices on earth. Gary Fujihara Big Kahuna Meteorites 105 Puhili Place Hilo, Hawaii 96720 (808) 640-9161 From cynapse at charter.net Thu Nov 19 11:19:04 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:19:04 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteoritediscovery In-Reply-To: <001601ca6915$82310200$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> References: <4B04DC20.3050103@meteoritesusa.com><20091119113425.986H6.942658.root@web02-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> <2309B9BD0981462DAD16D5EBAB429045@meteorroom> <001601ca6915$82310200$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: Like everyone else, when I saw the photo, I thought "Sikhote-Alin." I trust Don Stimpson's judgement that it is a meteorite, but I think it arrived in the yard via the USPS, not skymail. From meteoriteman at comcast.net Thu Nov 19 12:37:53 2009 From: meteoriteman at comcast.net (meteoriteman at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:37:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteoritediscovery Message-ID: <1291174461.4486361258652273492.JavaMail.root@sz0098a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Hmmmm... Liberal Boy ... Balloon Boy. Is there a new trend here! Jim K From mqfowler at mac.com Thu Nov 19 12:54:19 2009 From: mqfowler at mac.com (Michael Fowler) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:54:19 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery Message-ID: <3CC1DE3A-87F1-4D59-A240-4BE52CB5EECF@mac.com> Meteorite Hoax, or meteorite exaggeration? As a meteorite hoax, it is missing many of the classic symptoms, no flaming trail, no red hot iron at the bottom of the hole etc. Let me propose an alternate explanation: The size of the hole and the material shooting 5 feet high was an exaggeration, but it actually is a real fall. Mike Fowler Chicago > Graham, All, > Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the iron - well, that and think > about it - a 47g meteorite just made a foot-deep crater, sending > material five feet into the air? > The whole story is ridiculous - such a stone should have made a little > dent in the ground (we're talking a inch or two) - it wouldn't be > unremarkable if someone standing fifteen feet away didn't notice it > fall, or simply assumed someone had thrown a rock at them. > This sounds like another sensationalist looking for their moment of fame. > Bah. > Jason > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 3:34 AM, wrote: > > > Hi All, > > > > > > Strange....as there is all this talk at the moment about fresh iron 'fusion crust' then this does not look like a fresh iron fall but just like one of the treated sikhote alins I just mentioned in my last post!!! > > > > > > Dubious! > > > > > > Graham > > > > > > ---- Meteorites USA wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> http://www.hutchnews.com/Localregional/spacerock > > >> ______________________________________________ From meteoritekid at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 13:05:03 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:05:03 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery In-Reply-To: <3CC1DE3A-87F1-4D59-A240-4BE52CB5EECF@mac.com> References: <3CC1DE3A-87F1-4D59-A240-4BE52CB5EECF@mac.com> Message-ID: <93aaac890911191005v15290bdauea48a7fe3055e962@mail.gmail.com> Mike, All, Two problems - 1) how do you explain the foot-deep hole? It's one thing to exaggerate a thumping sound, but a hole tends to be pretty tangible evidence. Either there is a foot-deep hole or there isn't. Someone should go check, perhaps... 2) Check out the odds. Even if it were a meteorite, the odds that this fall would be an iron are akin to one in a hundred (as opposed to its being a stone). Beyond that, take a look at the iron - it looks to be identical to one of the most common iron falls on the market. Ridiculously rare fall (it happened during the Leonids, no less, with no observations of a fireball), or easy-to-stage hoax. I stand by what I said before. Jason On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Michael Fowler wrote: > Meteorite Hoax, or meteorite exaggeration? > > As a meteorite hoax, it is missing many of the classic symptoms, no flaming trail, no red hot iron at the bottom of the hole etc. > > Let me propose an alternate explanation: ?The size of the hole and the material shooting 5 feet high was an exaggeration, but it actually is a real fall. > > Mike Fowler > Chicago > > >> Graham, All, >> Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the iron - well, that and think >> about it - a 47g meteorite just made a foot-deep crater, sending >> material five feet into the air? >> The whole story is ridiculous - such a stone should have made a little >> dent in the ground (we're talking a inch or two) - it wouldn't be >> unremarkable if someone standing fifteen feet away didn't notice it >> fall, or simply assumed someone had thrown a rock at them. >> This sounds like another sensationalist looking for their moment of fame. >> Bah. >> Jason >> >> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 3:34 AM, wrote: >> >> > Hi All, >> >> > >> >> > Strange....as there is all this talk at the moment about fresh iron 'fusion crust' then this does not look like a fresh iron fall but just like one of the treated sikhote alins I just mentioned in my last post!!! >> >> > >> >> > Dubious! >> >> > >> >> > Graham >> >> > >> >> > ---- Meteorites USA wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.hutchnews.com/Localregional/spacerock >> >> >> ______________________________________________ > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From mqfowler at mac.com Thu Nov 19 13:16:04 2009 From: mqfowler at mac.com (Michael Fowler) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:16:04 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery Message-ID: <6E6E20C5-741D-43B2-B857-1922F72170B5@mac.com> Hi Jason etc. How to explain a foot deep hole? You missed my point. Maybe it is not a foot deep! First, a 10 year old boy might no have a very good idea of how much a foot is, or he may be exaggerating. Second, you have to trust that the news media got it right. Can you count on that? I don't stand by anything, just offering an alternative hypothesis. Time will tell. Mike Fowler > Mike, All, > Two problems - 1) how do you explain the foot-deep hole? It's one > thing to exaggerate a thumping sound, but a hole tends to be pretty > tangible evidence. Either there is a foot-deep hole or there isn't. > Someone should go check, perhaps... > 2) Check out the odds. Even if it were a meteorite, the odds that > this fall would be an iron are akin to one in a hundred (as opposed to > its being a stone). Beyond that, take a look at the iron - it looks > to be identical to one of the most common iron falls on the market. > Ridiculously rare fall (it happened during the Leonids, no less, with > no observations of a fireball), or easy-to-stage hoax. > I stand by what I said before. > Jason > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Michael Fowler wrote: > > > Meteorite Hoax, or meteorite exaggeration? > > > > > > As a meteorite hoax, it is missing many of the classic symptoms, no flaming trail, no red hot iron at the bottom of the hole etc. > > > > > > Let me propose an alternate explanation: The size of the hole and the material shooting 5 feet high was an exaggeration, but it actually is a real fall. > > > > > > Mike Fowler > > > Chicago > > > > > > > > >> Graham, All, > > >> Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the iron - well, that and think > > >> about it - a 47g meteorite just made a foot-deep crater, sending > > >> material five feet into the air? > > >> The whole story is ridiculous - such a stone should have made a little > > >> dent in the ground (we're talking a inch or two) - it wouldn't be > > >> unremarkable if someone standing fifteen feet away didn't notice it > > >> fall, or simply assumed someone had thrown a rock at them. > > >> This sounds like another sensationalist looking for their moment of fame. > > >> Bah. > > >> Jason > > > >> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 3:34 AM, wrote: > > >> > > >> > Hi All, > > > >> > Strange....as there is all this talk at the moment about fresh iron 'fusion crust' then this does not look like a fresh iron fall but just like one of the treated sikhote alins I just mentioned in my last post!!! > > > > >> > Dubious! > > > >> > Graham > > > > >> > ---- Meteorites USA wrote: > > > > >> >> http://www.hutchnews.com/Localregional/spacerock > >> From ensoramanda at ntlworld.com Thu Nov 19 13:29:11 2009 From: ensoramanda at ntlworld.com (ensoramanda at ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:29:11 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery In-Reply-To: <3CC1DE3A-87F1-4D59-A240-4BE52CB5EECF@mac.com> Message-ID: <20091119182911.3C6SF.11105.root@web07-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Another picture here showing the so called impact place/pit!! http://208.62.60.4/78/printer_1564.shtml Could a small iron like that falling at terminal velocity produce that in what looks like very hard ground?....looks artificial to me. (unless some excavation was done to retrieve it) I would have thought though that Don must have seen many meteorites and respect his thoughts....but as the latest discussion has shown...very few fresh irons have been seen just after they fell and I still think this does not look like it should....unless the photographs are very poor, making it look browner and glossier than it really is? Would be interesting to have it tested to see if it has been cleaned and treated in some way. I could be wrong, but.... Graham UK ---- Michael Fowler wrote: > Meteorite Hoax, or meteorite exaggeration? > > As a meteorite hoax, it is missing many of the classic symptoms, no flaming trail, no red hot iron at the bottom of the hole etc. > > Let me propose an alternate explanation: The size of the hole and the material shooting 5 feet high was an exaggeration, but it actually is a real fall. > > Mike Fowler > Chicago > > > > Graham, All, > > Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the iron - well, that and think > > about it - a 47g meteorite just made a foot-deep crater, sending > > material five feet into the air? > > The whole story is ridiculous - such a stone should have made a little > > dent in the ground (we're talking a inch or two) - it wouldn't be > > unremarkable if someone standing fifteen feet away didn't notice it > > fall, or simply assumed someone had thrown a rock at them. > > This sounds like another sensationalist looking for their moment of fame. > > Bah. > > Jason > > > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 3:34 AM, wrote: > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > > Strange....as there is all this talk at the moment about fresh iron 'fusion crust' then this does not look like a fresh iron fall but just like one of the treated sikhote alins I just mentioned in my last post!!! > > > > > > > > > > Dubious! > > > > > > > > > > Graham > > > > > > > > > > ---- Meteorites USA wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> http://www.hutchnews.com/Localregional/spacerock > > > > >> ______________________________________________ > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From countdeiro at earthlink.net Thu Nov 19 13:34:14 2009 From: countdeiro at earthlink.net (countdeiro at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:34:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery Message-ID: <26608098.1258655654852.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> One small frag in the middle of a community? With no other reports? Pretty sneaky meteorite. Not. "We wuz jus hanging in the backyard when we seen a big flash... and a whiz thump... and a big boom... and the dirt just flew up five feet high...it was a terrible thing!" "Ah..my name is spelled Jeeter with two "ee's". "And I'm gonna be one of them engineer fellas." Regards to all the fresh... and the weathered Listees, Count Deiro -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Fowler >Sent: Nov 19, 2009 12:54 PM >To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >Cc: Michael Fowler >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery > >Meteorite Hoax, or meteorite exaggeration? > >As a meteorite hoax, it is missing many of the classic symptoms, no flaming trail, no red hot iron at the bottom of the hole etc. > >Let me propose an alternate explanation: The size of the hole and the material shooting 5 feet high was an exaggeration, but it actually is a real fall. > >Mike Fowler >Chicago > > >> Graham, All, >> Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the iron - well, that and think >> about it - a 47g meteorite just made a foot-deep crater, sending >> material five feet into the air? >> The whole story is ridiculous - such a stone should have made a little >> dent in the ground (we're talking a inch or two) - it wouldn't be >> unremarkable if someone standing fifteen feet away didn't notice it >> fall, or simply assumed someone had thrown a rock at them. >> This sounds like another sensationalist looking for their moment of fame. >> Bah. >> Jason >> >> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 3:34 AM, wrote: >> >> > Hi All, >> >> > >> >> > Strange....as there is all this talk at the moment about fresh iron 'fusion crust' then this does not look like a fresh iron fall but just like one of the treated sikhote alins I just mentioned in my last post!!! >> >> > >> >> > Dubious! >> >> > >> >> > Graham >> >> > >> >> > ---- Meteorites USA wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.hutchnews.com/Localregional/spacerock >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >______________________________________________ >http://www.meteoritecentral.com >Meteorite-list mailing list >Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From mqfowler at mac.com Thu Nov 19 13:38:40 2009 From: mqfowler at mac.com (Michael Fowler) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:38:40 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery Message-ID: Well, they say a picture is worth a thousand words, and I would certainly agree! Thanks, Graham. A small meteorite could never make a big hole like in the picture, but people could, while digging around to find the meteorite at the bottom, so my hypothesis has not been conclusively falsified, yet. However, this does shift the balance of evidence back toward it being a hoax. Time will tell. Mike > Another picture here showing the so called impact place/pit!! > > http://208.62.60.4/78/printer_1564.shtml > > Could a small iron like that falling at terminal velocity produce that in what looks like very hard ground?....looks artificial to me. (unless some excavation was done to retrieve it) > > I would have thought though that Don must have seen many meteorites and respect his thoughts....but as the latest discussion has shown...very few fresh irons have been seen just after they fell and I still think this does not look like it should....unless the photographs are very poor, making it look browner and glossier than it really is? > > Would be interesting to have it tested to see if it has been cleaned and treated in some way. > > I could be wrong, but.... > > Graham UK > > > > > ---- Michael Fowler wrote: > > > Meteorite Hoax, or meteorite exaggeration? > > > > > > As a meteorite hoax, it is missing many of the classic symptoms, no flaming trail, no red hot iron at the bottom of the hole etc. > > > > > > Let me propose an alternate explanation: The size of the hole and the material shooting 5 feet high was an exaggeration, but it actually is a real fall. > > > > > > Mike Fowler > > > Chicago From countdeiro at earthlink.net Thu Nov 19 14:08:56 2009 From: countdeiro at earthlink.net (countdeiro at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:08:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery Message-ID: <17474608.1258657736643.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> -----Forwarded Message----- >From: countdeiro at earthlink.net >Sent: Nov 19, 2009 1:51 PM >To: Michael Fowler >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery > >Hi Mike and List, > >RPG's don't make a crater that big. Anybody want to run some calc's on what it would take to make an impact crater one foot deep and two and a half feet in diameter in nice loamy soil... as depicted? Or, if the boy did greatly enlarge it ...how about just a hole the size of that frag one foot deep? > >Guido > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Michael Fowler >>Sent: Nov 19, 2009 1:38 PM >>To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>Cc: Michael Fowler >>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery >> >>Well, they say a picture is worth a thousand words, and I would certainly agree! Thanks, Graham. >> >>A small meteorite could never make a big hole like in the picture, but people could, while digging around to find the meteorite at the bottom, so my hypothesis has not been conclusively falsified, yet. However, this does shift the balance of evidence back toward it being a hoax. >> >>Time will tell. >> >>Mike >> >>> Another picture here showing the so called impact place/pit!! >>> >>> http://208.62.60.4/78/printer_1564.shtml >>> >>> Could a small iron like that falling at terminal velocity produce that in what looks like very hard ground?....looks artificial to me. (unless some excavation was done to retrieve it) >>> >>> I would have thought though that Don must have seen many meteorites and respect his thoughts....but as the latest discussion has shown...very few fresh irons have been seen just after they fell and I still think this does not look like it should....unless the photographs are very poor, making it look browner and glossier than it really is? >>> >>> Would be interesting to have it tested to see if it has been cleaned and treated in some way. >>> >>> I could be wrong, but.... >>> >>> Graham UK >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---- Michael Fowler wrote: >>> >>> > Meteorite Hoax, or meteorite exaggeration? >>> >>> > >>> >>> > As a meteorite hoax, it is missing many of the classic symptoms, no flaming trail, no red hot iron at the bottom of the hole etc. >>> >>> > >>> >>> > Let me propose an alternate explanation: The size of the hole and the material shooting 5 feet high was an exaggeration, but it actually is a real fall. >>> >>> > >>> >>> > Mike Fowler >>> >>> > Chicago >>______________________________________________ >>http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>Meteorite-list mailing list >>Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From debfred at att.net Thu Nov 19 14:36:35 2009 From: debfred at att.net (debfred at att.net) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:36:35 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not In-Reply-To: <000d01ca6912$c27e5ef0$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> References: <4B02E1E6.4010609@meteoritesusa.com><544927.16157.qm@web55203.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <000d01ca6912$c27e5ef0$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: <111920091936.11684.4B059E43000953DC00002DA422218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0B0A9D000D0A0B@att.net> It seems it depends on what your definition of is, is? If your definition of fusion crust is "that it contains silicates" then by your definition irons cannot have a "fusion crust". They undeniably can have a layer of atmospherically melted then cooled material that formed from the unaltered underlying iron meteor. It forms in an identical fashion to Fusion crust on stony meteors! Call it peanut butter or blue cheese it doesn't matter to me. Irons have fusion crust in my book. Regards Fred Olsen -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Martin Altmann" > > Unlike in politics and public opinion (and sometimes in science), > in meteoritics > it sometimes can be more difficult to adhere to theories/legends, > if one gets samples in ones very hands, which exhibit the opposite of that, > the theory postulates. > > If you ever had an early picked Sikhote at hand, > or if you had taken from Andi Gren's Boguslavka slices > (a fall, who simply hadn't enough time in field, to develop a magnetite, > wuestite, limonite or whatever -ite weathering crust), > you would be very surprised. > > Cause they don't display that ominous blue-ish flimsy luster, which is often > reported as fusion crust, > > but a thick and fat layer of a discernibly different matter than the > material beneath, of a dark colour and rough to silky surface. > > I never believed in iron fusion crusts neither, but when I got in these > freshly picked up observed falls, I was disabused. > > Main problem in that question is, as it was correctly mentioned here, > that we simply have so few pristine samples of fresh iron falls and that > most irons we get in our collections arrive with weathered or artificially > cleaned surfaces. > > Now you may argue about the word "crust" as a (pseudo-)scientific term... > well for me scientific terms are best, when they keep most of their meaning > they have in their common use in the language. > And there crust - meanst for me a layer on the outside of an object. > > .....and we have the problem, that there exist these freshly fallen lumps > with that strange crust. Shall we hide them in the deepest corner of our > drawers, cause they don't fit in the axiom, that fusion crusts are fusion > crusts only, when silicates are melting? > > Sometimes, if the results don't fit into a theory, one has to think about > modifying the theory, > > Else there wouldn't be no meteorites in our sense at all, > Nada, Niente, Nix, Nimic, > cause we all would know that they are products of our Aristotelian > atmosphere, solified accumulations of terrestrial vapours and probably > created by lightning strokes, > wouldn't we? > > Best! > Martin > > > > > > > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von MEM > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. November 2009 04:31 > An: Meteorites USA; metlist > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not > > Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about > fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone says > that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. > Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they have a very > fragile magentite micro-crystal "film" and they have an ablation surface > but, they can't by definition have a "fusion crust" and no matter whom the > expert quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to > have a silicate source to for the glass component of the crust-- Nada, Nix, > No How. > > Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface, > and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion > crust. I have some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust > remnants. > > If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust on (non-silicate > bearing) irons then show me the "crust"...can't?..ok show me the glass? .... > right then-- no photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???......And while > there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft wavy lines of > briefly melted metal that was aligned to aerodynamic vectors--This does not > fusion crust make. > > Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no matter how often an > untruth is repeated it doesn't become "truth" by majority belief. But > science, being a human endeavor, sometimes can find itself "off track" and > when it does it accepts the error and gets back on track. > > Elton > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From marc.d.fries at jpl.nasa.gov Thu Nov 19 14:47:57 2009 From: marc.d.fries at jpl.nasa.gov (Fries, Marc D (3225)) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:47:57 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That hole has definitely been dug up. But it also doesn?t appear to be a foot deep. Perhaps in a 10 year old?s imagination it is. I just ran the numbers, and if we assume a spherical body (which I have to do) moving at its aerodynamically-limited speed then a 48 g iron meteorite would be moving around 70 m/s (~150 mph) when it reached the ground. I can picture it digging itself in a bit on impact. Like Mike, I?m not going to proclaim this one to be the genuine article but I?m also not ready to dismiss it completely. I?m curious to see how it pans out. Would be nice to get some composition data to compare it with SA or other meteorites. Cheers, MDF > > > On 11/19/09 10:38 AM, "Michael Fowler" wrote: > >> Well, they say a picture is worth a thousand words, and I would certainly >> agree! Thanks, Graham. >> >> A small meteorite could never make a big hole like in the picture, but people >> could, while digging around to find the meteorite at the bottom, so my >> hypothesis has not been conclusively falsified, yet. However, this does >> shift the balance of evidence back toward it being a hoax. >> >> Time will tell. >> >> Mike >> >>> Another picture here showing the so called impact place/pit!! >>> >>> http://208.62.60.4/78/printer_1564.shtml >>> >>> Could a small iron like that falling at terminal velocity produce that in >>> what looks like very hard ground?....looks artificial to me. (unless some >>> excavation was done to retrieve it) >>> >>> I would have thought though that Don must have seen many meteorites and >>> respect his thoughts....but as the latest discussion has shown...very few >>> fresh irons have been seen just after they fell and I still think this does >>> not look like it should....unless the photographs are very poor, making it >>> look browner and glossier than it really is? >>> >>> Would be interesting to have it tested to see if it has been cleaned and >>> treated in some way. >>> >>> I could be wrong, but.... >>> >>> Graham UK >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---- Michael Fowler wrote: >>> >>>> Meteorite Hoax, or meteorite exaggeration? >>> >>>> >>> >>>> As a meteorite hoax, it is missing many of the classic symptoms, no flaming >>>> trail, no red hot iron at the bottom of the hole etc. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Let me propose an alternate explanation: The size of the hole and the >>>> material shooting 5 feet high was an exaggeration, but it actually is a >>>> real fall. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Mike Fowler >>> >>>> Chicago >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> From cynapse at charter.net Thu Nov 19 15:10:38 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:10:38 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery In-Reply-To: <93aaac890911190345t37561e55v1c4e3d2768dc2fa1@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B04DC20.3050103@meteoritesusa.com> <20091119113425.986H6.942658.root@web02-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> <93aaac890911190345t37561e55v1c4e3d2768dc2fa1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 03:45:10 -0800, you wrote: >Graham, All, >Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the iron - well, that and think >about it - a 47g meteorite just made a foot-deep crater, sending >material five feet into the air? Could this be it? Images don't match up exactly, but it could be the differing angles of the photos. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120487411932 http://www.hutchnews.com/Localregional/spacerock From rlenssen at planet.nl Thu Nov 19 15:35:50 2009 From: rlenssen at planet.nl (Rob Lenssen) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:35:50 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons - Krinov quoted References: <4B02E1E6.4010609@meteoritesusa.com><544927.16157.qm@web55203.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <000d01ca6912$c27e5ef0$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: <6938324E55014D7D8EBEBB38E706073E@EIGENAARNJEQJY> Let's see what Russian Scientist, and 1947 Sikhote Alin expedition member, Dr. Krinov wrote about SA's crust: >From Krinov's book "Giant meteorites" (English edition 1966) page 346: "The collection of small specimens lying strewn on the surface of the ground, mainly in the rear part of the distribution ellipse, was carried out during the First expedition of 1947, immediately after the snow had melted. The meteorites picked up under these conditions had preserved the most varied, extremely delicate patterns on the fusion crust (Fig. 238, 239). On many small specimens picked up from the surface of the ground covered with old leaves, dry grass, etc., quite well-marked bluish violet tints were preserved in the ash-grey fusion crust. The meteorites stood out sharply against the yellowish-brown background of the forest carpet because of their colour and even the very small ones, a few centimeters across or less (Fig. 193), were easily visible from a distance of several yards." (Note: The first expedition arrived two and a half months after the fall.) >From Krinov's article "Neue Untersuchungen des Niedergangs und Sammlung von Teilen des Eisenmeteoritenregens von Sichote-Alin" (Chemie de Erde; 1970) page 250, reporting about the 1967 and later expeditions. (Note: I translated this from German): "During their twenty year stay in the soil, the collected whole individuals have been covered by a thin oxidation layer and are colored brownish. Yet many have areas that have not been covered by oxidation and have kept their original dark grey color of the fusion crust." I think this was ment here: http://home.planet.nl/~rlenssen/SA_216g/216g_Sikhote_Alin.html All the best, Rob Lenssen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Altmann" To: Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not Unlike in politics and public opinion (and sometimes in science), in meteoritics it sometimes can be more difficult to adhere to theories/legends, if one gets samples in ones very hands, which exhibit the opposite of that, the theory postulates. If you ever had an early picked Sikhote at hand, or if you had taken from Andi Gren's Boguslavka slices (a fall, who simply hadn't enough time in field, to develop a magnetite, wuestite, limonite or whatever -ite weathering crust), you would be very surprised. Cause they don't display that ominous blue-ish flimsy luster, which is often reported as fusion crust, but a thick and fat layer of a discernibly different matter than the material beneath, of a dark colour and rough to silky surface. I never believed in iron fusion crusts neither, but when I got in these freshly picked up observed falls, I was disabused. Main problem in that question is, as it was correctly mentioned here, that we simply have so few pristine samples of fresh iron falls and that most irons we get in our collections arrive with weathered or artificially cleaned surfaces. Now you may argue about the word "crust" as a (pseudo-)scientific term... well for me scientific terms are best, when they keep most of their meaning they have in their common use in the language. And there crust - meanst for me a layer on the outside of an object. .....and we have the problem, that there exist these freshly fallen lumps with that strange crust. Shall we hide them in the deepest corner of our drawers, cause they don't fit in the axiom, that fusion crusts are fusion crusts only, when silicates are melting? Sometimes, if the results don't fit into a theory, one has to think about modifying the theory, Else there wouldn't be no meteorites in our sense at all, Nada, Niente, Nix, Nimic, cause we all would know that they are products of our Aristotelian atmosphere, solified accumulations of terrestrial vapours and probably created by lightning strokes, wouldn't we? Best! Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von MEM Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. November 2009 04:31 An: Meteorites USA; metlist Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone says that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they have a very fragile magentite micro-crystal "film" and they have an ablation surface but, they can't by definition have a "fusion crust" and no matter whom the expert quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to have a silicate source to for the glass component of the crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface, and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion crust. I have some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust remnants. If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust on (non-silicate bearing) irons then show me the "crust"...can't?..ok show me the glass? .... right then-- no photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???......And while there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft wavy lines of briefly melted metal that was aligned to aerodynamic vectors--This does not fusion crust make. Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no matter how often an untruth is repeated it doesn't become "truth" by majority belief. But science, being a human endeavor, sometimes can find itself "off track" and when it does it accepts the error and gets back on track. Elton ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 19 15:35:27 2009 From: carloselguapo1 at hotmail.com (Carl 's) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:35:27 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery Message-ID: Interesting comments from everyone but best to wait to hear from Don. Like to hear how his thoughts were mangled by the press. Carl _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From cynapse at charter.net Thu Nov 19 15:50:52 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:50:52 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Biophysicist confirms Liberal boy's meteorite discovery In-Reply-To: References: <4B04DC20.3050103@meteoritesusa.com> <20091119113425.986H6.942658.root@web02-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> <93aaac890911190345t37561e55v1c4e3d2768dc2fa1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8rbbg594e7upfggs9b7pi6gmphvdthjk39@4ax.com> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:10:38 -0500, you wrote: >Could this be it? Images don't match up exactly, but it could be the differing >angles of the photos. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120487411932 > >http://www.hutchnews.com/Localregional/spacerock Seller just confirmed that this isn't the same meteorite-- the one from Ebay went to Germany. From mccartney at blackbearddata.com Thu Nov 19 15:50:15 2009 From: mccartney at blackbearddata.com (McCartney Taylor) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:50:15 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Liberal hole excavated Message-ID: <7896d3b5$bba6434$139e1c1e$@com> http://208.62.60.4/78/printer_1564.shtml This hole was dug. Scatter pattern shows where the digger stood. You don't dump dirt on your own feet while digging. Second, the whole defies the ratio for a explosive impact of 10:1. Even if it was perfect, you have to have a supersonic entry to make it thus the neighbors would here a massive bang. So the hole is not a crater. However, if the object was dug out, it would explain the incongruencies. The hole is a non crater, as for the authenticity of the event, I am undecided. -mt From cdtucson at cox.net Thu Nov 19 12:14:16 2009 From: cdtucson at cox.net (cdtucson at cox.net) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 9:14:16 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not In-Reply-To: <20091119112942.558H0.942523.root@web02-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Message-ID: <20091119121416.1R4J6.245937.imail@fed1rmwml28> If I'm not mistaken. The crust shown on Sikhotes may well be a true fusion crust because sikhote does contain some silicate minerals within it. It is the irons without silicates that cannot produce a true fusion crust. And as Elton said, Nobody has ever shown one of these non-silicate irons with fusion crust. In fact the two examples shown are the only examples I have ever seen of any type of iron meteorite with fusion crust, not counting true silicated irons of course. Does anyone have other pictures of any irons with fusion crusts to share? Thanks Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax ---- ensoramanda at ntlworld.com wrote: > Hi Elton, > > I think it is that thin coating of magnetite that most folks are calling a fusion crust on fresh irons...what else can it be called? > > As you say, unfortunately it is quite fragile and on most irons it flakes or comes off after very little time in our climate, so most of those wonderful looking sikhote alins at the shows have actually been cleaned and treated and have lost the magnetite 'fusion crust'. I have seen many with remnants which you can see still peeling off but rarely in their pristine matt grey original state. Also, as you say, those flow lines can be still present mostly underneath when the magnetite/crust has gone but are I think much more detailed and sharp when the magnetite coating is fresh. > > If you know of a different name/term to call the magnetite coating on fresh irons other than fusion crust then I am sure we would all like to know what we should call it? > > Regards, > > Graham > > > > ---- MEM wrote: > > Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone says that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they have a very fragile magentite micro-crystal "film" and they have an ablation surface but, they can't by definition have a "fusion crust" and no matter whom the expert quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to have a silicate source to for the glass component of the crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. > > > > Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface, and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion crust. I have some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust remnants. > > > > If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust on (non-silicate bearing) irons then show me the "crust"...can't?..ok show me the glass? .... right then-- no photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???......And while there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft wavy lines of briefly melted metal that was aligned to aerodynamic vectors--This does not fusion crust make. > > > > Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no matter how often an untruth is repeated it doesn't become "truth" by majority belief. But science, being a human endeavor, sometimes can find itself "off track" and when it does it accepts the error and gets back on track. > > > > Elton > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From debfred at att.net Thu Nov 19 18:20:07 2009 From: debfred at att.net (debfred at att.net) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:20:07 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not In-Reply-To: <20091119121416.1R4J6.245937.imail@fed1rmwml28> References: <20091119112942.558H0.942523.root@web02-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> <20091119121416.1R4J6.245937.imail@fed1rmwml28> Message-ID: <111920092320.12242.4B05D2A70000D1F700002FD222230706129B0A02D29B9B0EBF0B0A9D000D0A0B@att.net> Carl, I need some help here. Which one of these elements or minerals is in the silicate group? Sikhote-Alin is a coarse iron octahedrite. Its composition is as follows: 5.9% nickel, 0.42 % cobalt, 0.46% phosphorus, 0.28% sulfur, smaller amounts of germanium and iridium, and the remainder (approximately 93%) is iron. The following minerals are present: taenite, plessite, rhabites, troilite, chromite, kamacite, and schreibersite crystals. ... Regards, Fred -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: > If I'm not mistaken. The crust shown on Sikhotes may well be a true fusion crust > because sikhote does contain some silicate minerals within it. It is the irons without silicates that cannot produce a true fusion crust. And as Elton said, Nobody has ever shown one of these non-silicate irons with fusion crust. In fact the two examples shown are the only examples I have ever seen of any type of iron meteorite with fusion crust, not counting true silicated irons > of course. Does anyone have other pictures of any irons with fusion crusts to share? Thanks > Carl > -- > Carl or Debbie Esparza > Meteoritemax > > > ---- ensoramanda at ntlworld.com wrote: > > Hi Elton, > > > I think it is that thin coating of magnetite that most folks are calling a > fusion crust on fresh irons...what else can it be called? > > > As you say, unfortunately it is quite fragile and on most irons it flakes or comes off after very little time in our climate, so most of those wonderful > looking sikhote alins at the shows have actually been cleaned and treated and > have lost the magnetite 'fusion crust'. I have seen many with remnants which you > can see still peeling off but rarely in their pristine matt grey original state. > Also, as you say, those flow lines can be still present mostly underneath when > the magnetite/crust has gone but are I think much more detailed and sharp when > the magnetite coating is fresh. > > > > If you know of a different name/term to call the magnetite coating on fresh > irons other than fusion crust then I am sure we would all like to know what we > should call it? > > > > Regards, > > > > Graham > > > > > > > > ---- MEM wrote: > > > Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about > fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone says > that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. > Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they have a very > fragile magentite micro-crystal "film" and they have an ablation surface but, > they can't by definition have a "fusion crust" and no matter whom the expert > quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to have a > silicate source to for the glass component of the crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. > > > > > > Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface, > and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion crust. > I have some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust remnants. > > > > > > If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust on (non-silicate > bearing) irons then show me the "crust"...can't?..ok show me the glass? .... > right then-- no photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???......And while > there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft wavy lines of briefly > melted metal that was aligned to aerodynamic vectors--This does not fusion crust > make. > > > > > > Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no matter how often an > untruth is repeated it doesn't become "truth" by majority belief. But science, > being a human endeavor, sometimes can find itself "off track" and when it does > it accepts the error and gets back on track. > > > > > > Elton > > > ______________________________________________ > > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From gmhupe at htn.net Thu Nov 19 19:03:03 2009 From: gmhupe at htn.net (Greg Hupe) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:03:03 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Liberal hole excavated References: <7896d3b5$bba6434$139e1c1e$@com> Message-ID: <2907C07722C647F4A0A967D7FFB992A9@Gregor> Hello McCartney and All, Maybe the youngster's dog dug the hole intending to bury a bone, but was chased away by marauding aliens or pirates hoping to find some booty! ... So we have the kid's foot prints, but did we look closer for paw prints, 3-toe appendage prints or a set of round holes paralleled by boot prints left by the other two suspects? Perhaps the alien left this particular nugget as a gift! ;-) All in good fun... :-) Best regards, Greg ==================== Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 ==================== Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault ----- Original Message ----- From: "McCartney Taylor" To: Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 3:50 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Liberal hole excavated > http://208.62.60.4/78/printer_1564.shtml > > This hole was dug. Scatter pattern shows where the digger stood. You don't > dump dirt on your own feet while digging. > > Second, the whole defies the ratio for a explosive impact of 10:1. Even if > it was perfect, you have to have a supersonic entry to make it thus the > neighbors would here a massive bang. > > So the hole is not a crater. > > However, if the object was dug out, it would explain the incongruencies. > > The hole is a non crater, as for the authenticity of the event, I am > undecided. > > -mt > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 19 20:03:38 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (MEM) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:03:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <139975.55063.qm@web55202.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Because there has been a vacuum in accurate description and cataloging of flight/ablation features not withstanding Nininger's Surface Features of Meteorites-- the term "fusion crust" has been adapted to irons but it still isn't correct. As I mentioned even experts misuse terms and concepts occasionally. If I've time later tonight to respond to Martin's post, I'll list a few possible terms that we need to make operational by defining them so we can discuss the components of the zone affected by reentry forces. Elton --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Greg Stanley wrote: > From: Greg Stanley > Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not > To: mstreman53 at yahoo.com, eric at meteoritesusa.com, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 9:04 AM > > Elton: > > Take a look - the Smithsonian classifies the meteorites > from Antarctica and some of the Irons are described as > having a fusion crust. > > Greg S. > > > http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/samples/petdes.cfm?sample=MIL07666 > > > Sample Number? ??? MIL 07666 > Pairing ??? MIL 07666 > Newsletter ??? 31,2 > Location ??? Miller Range > Field Number ??? 18159 > Dimensions ??? 5.0 x 2.9 x 1.4 > Weight ??? 96.25 > Original Classification ??? Iron (IIAB) > > Macroscopic Description - Cari Corrigan and Linda > Welzenbach > This lozenge-shaped meteorite is flight oriented with a > slight melt flange on the top side. The bottom or flight > surface is finely pitted, the top side smoother but with > sporadic, deeper regmaglypts. Fusion crust is 100% and > exhibits mild oxidation in the form of iridescence and minor > halos. > > Thin Section Description - Tim McCoy, Cari Corrigan and > Linda Welzenbach > The meteorite was examined from a cut and etched surface, > which bisected one end or nose of the specimen. A thin > fusion crust is preserved over most of the meteorite, and > gradational heat alteration zone of approximately 1.0-2 mm > thick underlies the fusion crust on the bottom or flight > side, and is less than 0.3 mm thick on the top side. A > prominent coarse a2 structure is found throughout. The > section exhibits subequant grains ranging up to 1 mm in size > which meet at 120? triple j > > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:30:39 -0800 > > From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com > > To: eric at meteoritesusa.com; > meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on > Irons--Not > > > > Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this > discussion about fusion crust on irons is right next to > unicorns postulations. Everyone says that fusion crust on > irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. > Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: > they have a very fragile magentite micro-crystal "film" and > they have an ablation surface but, they can't by definition > have a "fusion crust" and no matter whom the expert quoted > they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to > have a silicate source to for the glass component of the > crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. > > > > Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an > ablated/ablation surface, and they can show flight > features--but not all meteorites have a fusion crust. I have > some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust > remnants. > > > > If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust > on (non-silicate bearing) irons then show me the > "crust"...can't?..ok show me the glass? .... right then-- no > photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???......And while > there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft > wavy lines of briefly melted metal that was aligned to > aerodynamic vectors--This does not fusion crust make. > > > > Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no > matter how often an untruth is repeated it doesn't become > "truth" by majority belief. But science, being a human > endeavor, sometimes can find itself "off track" and when it > does it accepts the error and gets back on track. > > > > Elton > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ??? > ???????? > ?????? ??? > ? > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 From altmann at meteorite-martin.de Thu Nov 19 20:12:17 2009 From: altmann at meteorite-martin.de (Martin Altmann) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 02:12:17 +0100 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not In-Reply-To: <139975.55063.qm@web55202.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <139975.55063.qm@web55202.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000301ca697e$80d021c0$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> Hi there, don't get me wrong, I don't have the intension to convince anybody... ....infact it took me 2 decades or so, until I had had some examples of iron fusion crust in my hands, which I couldn't ignore any longer :-) Hmm - let's be patient, I think it's high time for a new iron fall, isn't it? Best! Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von MEM Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2009 02:04 An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; Greg Stanley Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not Because there has been a vacuum in accurate description and cataloging of flight/ablation features not withstanding Nininger's Surface Features of Meteorites-- the term "fusion crust" has been adapted to irons but it still isn't correct. As I mentioned even experts misuse terms and concepts occasionally. If I've time later tonight to respond to Martin's post, I'll list a few possible terms that we need to make operational by defining them so we can discuss the components of the zone affected by reentry forces. Elton --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Greg Stanley wrote: > From: Greg Stanley > Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not > To: mstreman53 at yahoo.com, eric at meteoritesusa.com, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 9:04 AM > > Elton: > > Take a look - the Smithsonian classifies the meteorites > from Antarctica and some of the Irons are described as > having a fusion crust. > > Greg S. > > > http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/samples/petdes.cfm?sample=MIL07666 > > > Sample Number? ??? MIL 07666 > Pairing ??? MIL 07666 > Newsletter ??? 31,2 > Location ??? Miller Range > Field Number ??? 18159 > Dimensions ??? 5.0 x 2.9 x 1.4 > Weight ??? 96.25 > Original Classification ??? Iron (IIAB) > > Macroscopic Description - Cari Corrigan and Linda > Welzenbach > This lozenge-shaped meteorite is flight oriented with a > slight melt flange on the top side. The bottom or flight > surface is finely pitted, the top side smoother but with > sporadic, deeper regmaglypts. Fusion crust is 100% and > exhibits mild oxidation in the form of iridescence and minor > halos. > > Thin Section Description - Tim McCoy, Cari Corrigan and > Linda Welzenbach > The meteorite was examined from a cut and etched surface, > which bisected one end or nose of the specimen. A thin > fusion crust is preserved over most of the meteorite, and > gradational heat alteration zone of approximately 1.0-2 mm > thick underlies the fusion crust on the bottom or flight > side, and is less than 0.3 mm thick on the top side. A > prominent coarse a2 structure is found throughout. The > section exhibits subequant grains ranging up to 1 mm in size > which meet at 120? triple j > > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:30:39 -0800 > > From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com > > To: eric at meteoritesusa.com; > meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on > Irons--Not > > > > Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this > discussion about fusion crust on irons is right next to > unicorns postulations. Everyone says that fusion crust on > irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. > Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: > they have a very fragile magentite micro-crystal "film" and > they have an ablation surface but, they can't by definition > have a "fusion crust" and no matter whom the expert quoted > they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to > have a silicate source to for the glass component of the > crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. > > > > Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an > ablated/ablation surface, and they can show flight > features--but not all meteorites have a fusion crust. I have > some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust > remnants. > > > > If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust > on (non-silicate bearing) irons then show me the > "crust"...can't?..ok show me the glass? .... right then-- no > photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???......And while > there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft > wavy lines of briefly melted metal that was aligned to > aerodynamic vectors--This does not fusion crust make. > > > > Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no > matter how often an untruth is repeated it doesn't become > "truth" by majority belief. But science, being a human > endeavor, sometimes can find itself "off track" and when it > does it accepts the error and gets back on track. > > > > Elton > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ??? > ???????? > ?????? ??? > ? > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLM TAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From eric at meteoritesusa.com Thu Nov 19 21:38:56 2009 From: eric at meteoritesusa.com (Meteorites USA) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:38:56 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites bring in big money to those willing to hunt for them Message-ID: <4B060140.4080700@meteoritesusa.com> Finally, a good media report on meteorites! http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=8736952 Enjoy... Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA From deanbessey at yahoo.com Thu Nov 19 21:44:29 2009 From: deanbessey at yahoo.com (dean bessey) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:44:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] AD: Almost 200 NWAs now on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4B04488F.1060102@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: <983563.95412.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I have been busy the last couple days and have listed well over 100 NWAs on ebay and still adding more as I write. I have a big ebay meteorite listing weekend so check back all weekend for first pickings as my prices are pretty low. Lots of 1 cent and really low starting price auctions also See my items here: http://stores.ebay.com/DEANS-COLLECTIBLES-AND-GEMSTONES_Meteorites_W0QQ_fsubZ4QQ_sidZ1598024QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322 Or search AMUNRE on ebay. If you see a quantity of buy it nows that you like or some of the larger meteorites email me and maybe I can offer you a lower price on some of them Cheers DEAN AMUNRE on ebay PS: Dont forget to check out my website also http://www.meteoriteshop.com From michael at rocksfromspace.org Thu Nov 19 22:03:20 2009 From: michael at rocksfromspace.org (Michael Johnson) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:03:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 20, 2009 Message-ID: <1061035115.14071258686200255.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_20_2009.html From batkol at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 19 22:12:13 2009 From: batkol at sbcglobal.net (batkol) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:12:13 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 20, 2009 In-Reply-To: <1061035115.14071258686200255.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> References: <1061035115.14071258686200255.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> Message-ID: Brix is a beautiful and very well trained dog! take care susan patton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Johnson" To: Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 9:03 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 20,2009 > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_20_2009.html > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From grf2 at comcast.net Thu Nov 19 22:25:05 2009 From: grf2 at comcast.net (Jerry Flaherty) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 22:25:05 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 20, 2009 References: <1061035115.14071258686200255.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> Message-ID: <89D6D6F9F52748DE82D378BC5EAF1A70@ASUS> Cool, that's a Grebe -------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Johnson" Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 10:03 PM To: Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 20,2009 > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_20_2009.html > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 19 23:11:21 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (MEM) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:11:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Ablation Zone 5 Layers...was Fusion Crust on Irons--Not In-Reply-To: <000d01ca6912$c27e5ef0$07b22959@name86d88d87e2> Message-ID: <153797.41038.qm@web55201.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Hello Martin,Graham, Gregg and List, Yes on a freshly recovered iron, there appears to be a "film" of what we believe is "magnetite-like oxide/nitride micro-crystals, probably including some sulfide and phosphide minerals" which form through interaction with hot atmospheric plasma. Even though some of it is magnetic, some of it is easily dislodged with a wipe of the finger. I surmise that this rapidly goes to hematite or limonite but I've not thought through the chemistry and I suspect a valence discrepancy that makes this type meteoric "magnetite" unstable. The mineral assemblage in the coating/film is a result of passage through the atmosphere and not per se the resulting changes that occur with the passage of time on the surface. I think I can proffer an argument for what is and is not a scientifically underpinned definition of "crust" but I'll work on that later. For the time being the use of "crust" by present definition involves glass and last time I checked there is no such thing as "iron glass". We expect to find something analogous to "crust" so we call what we see "crust"-- I understand that. But when we stray too far everything including dust mites, rust and, fungus gets called fusion crust. As there is also a surface bluing occasionally observed (much like after welding) this may be a directly formed oxide/nitride layer of chemically altered meteorite while emerging from the incandescent phase of flight but since I am unsure of the composition I'll leave it out of the below discussion. Chances are it is also quickly lost to weathering on the surface--even in the museum drawer. The bottom line here is: we have to accept the probability of an ever-evolving surface on our meteorites. Some happen quickly and may be gone in a flash and some oh so slowly. This should not deter us however from discussing the basis for each step that comes and goes. I believe to discuss meteorite surface features e.g crust, non crust, flow lines, ripples, regmaglypts, pits, bubbles, and all the variations, we should come to a working definition in general principle of what to call them so we know we are discussing the same thing. Part of that is acceptance that there is an "ablation/ablated zone" generally 2-6mm from the physical surface where the meteoroid last interacted with the heat of reentry. This zone my eventually be proved a new type of "rind", geologically speaking. Of the layers physically present, I see two branches/variations which we may reintegrate but for ease of discussion the first is mostly the non-silicate bearing iron branch of "layers": The ablated/ablation zone includes amongst it layers: 1)Lost Layer/ Null layer: The material which is missing, includes ALL the material which is no longer there which we may conclude was lost from its pre-entry form due to atmospheric interaction. It may be marginal but may be needed to discuss surface depth in relation to cosmic ray tracks 14C concentrations, etc. 2) Oxide Film or Coating: There is a layer of non-physically/non-chemically, bonded oxide film which is not persistent, subject to rapid erosion/weathering, abrasion etc. This represents a condensation coating which is applied after ablation stops. (See bluing discussion also) 2a) This is where fusion crust might be found if there were normally crystalline molecules that melted and quickly quenched leaving an anamorphic solid. But what we know as true fusion crust is more complicated than that and is largely governed by the composition of the meteoroid. 3)Flow/ Thermodynamic Features: 3a)There may be a layer of flow streams/esker-like inverted stream channels where molten material, which escaped evaporation and,, was displaced from one spot to another where it may have been redeposited. Regardless it is an artifact of reentry and we may also include it in the subset of features we refer to as "flight markings" This is a gray area also because this is more akin to a surface feature than a true layer but I throw it out on the table for discussion. There will be occasional features which represent movement of material over top of a previously ablated surface and time and consensus will determine if it merits a layer designation. 3b)There is also the occasional surface feature (semi flow) (which may or may not be a layer) of plastically deformed "ripple-marks" which give a satiny, wavy, micro "ridge and valley" pattern not unlike the depth and texture of fingerprints (NOTE this is not the same as "thumb-print" regmyglipts) Not all irons have this very thin layer. These ripple marks appear to form via fluid dynamics. I surmise (but have yet to prove) these are ripple marks of a extremely short-lived state where semi-molten metal is plastic enough to deform along lines where superheated gas eroding gas passing in both laminar and turbulent flow over the continuously evolving surface of the meteoroid. It leaves, a row and furrow/valley and ridge/ripple-like marking, submilimeter in depth. This results in that "less than glossy","satin-like" sheen seen on some meteorites--This is legitimate flight marking and therefore may actually be a surface feature and not a true layer but, a variation on the ablation surface. I am leaning toward this being a surface feature vs an independent layer. 4)Ablation surface: It is included to distinguish from the newly fallen surface any weathered/flaking/rusting surface all too frequently mistakenly called "fusion crust" on Canyon Diablos, Natans etc. Crust if present sits atop the ablation surface as it represents incorporated atmospheric gasses and possible re-deposition of Physically and chemically altered material from another location on the meteoroid, etc. Surface features can be in the ablation surface or above it depending on their origins. The ablation surface is a distinct demarkation between what was removed and what remained even if subsequently it bubbled into fusion crust or represents a redeposition of condensate from this ablative/ heating/ shearing process--which also needs a generic but descriptive name! 5)TAZ: Thermally Altered Zone: in this zone is the material which was not displaced nor reformed, per se-- but was thermally altered to a major or minor degree. Some volatile gases my have been out gassed but a major effect would be resetting magnetic orientation within the zone. There are means to analyze how deeply and to what range of elevated temperatures this zone was subjected to. 6) All the remaining material largely unaffected by the change in address from solar orbit to our collections. A place holder for the time being but all that which is not a part of the ablation zone. I'll leave it there for tonight and for a straw man suggest there are 5 layers(on irons at least) in the "Ablation Zone". These layers are thick or thin; regions of original material which were in someway altered /affected by the dynamics of passage through the atmosphere. Elton --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Martin Altmann wrote: > From: Martin Altmann > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 7:21 AM > Unlike in politics and public opinion > (and sometimes in science), > in meteoritics it sometimes can be more difficult to adhere to > theories/legends,if one gets samples in ones very hands, which exhibit the opposite of that, the theory postulates. > > If you ever had an early picked Sikhote at hand, > or if you had taken from Andi Gren's Boguslavka slices > (a fall, who simply hadn't enough time in field, to develop > a magnetite, wuestite, limonite or whatever -ite weathering crust), > you would be very surprised. > > Cause they don't display that ominous blue-ish flimsy > luster, which is often reported as fusion crust, but a thick and fat layer of a discernibly different matter than the material beneath, of a dark color and rough to silky surface. > > I never believed in iron fusion crusts neither, but when I > got in these freshly picked up observed falls, I was disabused. > > Main problem in that question is, as it was correctly > mentioned here, that we simply have so few pristine samples of fresh iron falls and that most irons we get in our collections arrive with weathered or artificially cleaned surfaces. > > Now you may argue about the word "crust" as a > (pseudo-)scientific term...well for me scientific terms are best, when they keep most of their meaning they have in their common use in the language. And there crust - meant for me a layer on the outside of an object. > .....and we have the problem, that there exist these > freshly fallen lumps with that strange crust. Shall we hide them in the deepest corner of our drawers, cause they don't fit in the axiom, that fusion crusts are fusion crusts only, when silicates are melting? > > Sometimes, if the results don't fit into a theory, one has > to think about modifying the theory, > > Else there wouldn't be no meteorites in our sense at all, > Nada, Niente, Nix, Nimic, cause we all would know that they are products of our Aristotelian atmosphere, solidfied accumulations of terrestrial vapours and probably created by lightning strokes,wouldn't we? > > Best! > Martin From cdtucson at cox.net Thu Nov 19 21:27:44 2009 From: cdtucson at cox.net (cdtucson at cox.net) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:27:44 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Re: Fusion Crust on Irons--Not Message-ID: <20091119212744.C2BJ7.253273.imail@fed1rmwml31> > Fred, no problem.see link; > > http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1990Metik..49..115M > > Carl > -- > Carl or Debbie Esparza > Meteoritemax > > > ---- debfred at att.net wrote: > > Carl, I need some help here. Which one of these elements or minerals is in the silicate group? > > Sikhote-Alin is a coarse iron octahedrite. Its composition is as follows: 5.9% nickel, 0.42 % cobalt, 0.46% phosphorus, 0.28% sulfur, smaller amounts of germanium and iridium, and the remainder (approximately 93%) is iron. The following minerals are present: taenite, plessite, rhabites, troilite, chromite, kamacite, and schreibersite crystals. ... > > Regards, Fred > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > From: > > > > > If I'm not mistaken. The crust shown on Sikhotes may well be a true fusion crust > > > because sikhote does contain some silicate minerals within it. > > It is the irons without silicates that cannot produce a true fusion crust. And > > as Elton said, Nobody has ever shown one of these non-silicate irons with fusion > > crust. In fact the two examples shown are the only examples I have ever seen of > > any type of iron meteorite with fusion crust, not counting true silicated irons > > > of course. > > Does anyone have other pictures of any irons with fusion crusts to share? Thanks > > > Carl > > > -- > > > Carl or Debbie Esparza > > > Meteoritemax > > > > > > > > > ---- ensoramanda at ntlworld.com wrote: > > > > Hi Elton, > > > > > > > I think it is that thin coating of magnetite that most folks are calling a > > > fusion crust on fresh irons...what else can it be called? > > > > > > > As you say, unfortunately it is quite fragile and on most irons it flakes or > > comes off after very little time in our climate, so most of those wonderful > > > looking sikhote alins at the shows have actually been cleaned and treated and > > > have lost the magnetite 'fusion crust'. I have seen many with remnants which you > > > can see still peeling off but rarely in their pristine matt grey original state. > > > Also, as you say, those flow lines can be still present mostly underneath when > > > the magnetite/crust has gone but are I think much more detailed and sharp when > > > the magnetite coating is fresh. > > > > > > > > If you know of a different name/term to call the magnetite coating on fresh > > > irons other than fusion crust then I am sure we would all like to know what we > > > should call it? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Graham > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- MEM wrote: > > > > > Stopping in a few minutes to state again that all this discussion about > > > fusion crust on irons is right next to unicorns postulations. Everyone says > > > that fusion crust on irons exists but no one can come up with the proof. > > > Non-silicate bearing irons DO NOT/CANNOT have FUSION crust: they have a very > > > fragile magentite micro-crystal "film" and they have an ablation surface but, > > > they can't by definition have a "fusion crust" and no matter whom the expert > > > quoted they still do not have a fusion crust. A fusion crust has to have a > > > silicate source to for the glass component of the crust-- Nada, Nix, No How. > > > > > > > > > > Both silicate and non-silicate meteorites have an ablated/ablation surface, > > > and they can show flight features--but not all meteorites have a fusion crust. > > > I have some OCs which have flow lines UNDER the fusion crust remnants. > > > > > > > > > > If anyone still defends the presence of fusion crust on (non-silicate > > > bearing) irons then show me the "crust"...can't?..ok show me the glass? .... > > > right then-- no photos, no thin sections, no micro graphs???......And while > > > there was one close up of an ablated surface showing soft wavy lines of briefly > > > melted metal that was aligned to aerodynamic vectors--This does not fusion crust > > > make. > > > > > > > > > > Unlike in politics and public opinion, in science, no matter how often an > > > untruth is repeated it doesn't become "truth" by majority belief. But science, > > > being a human endeavor, sometimes can find itself "off track" and when it does > > > it accepts the error and gets back on track. > > > > > > > > > > Elton > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > > > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > > > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > > > > From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 20 00:08:41 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (MEM) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:08:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Clarification.. Was Fusion Crust on Irons Message-ID: <638229.27884.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Again Yahoo is near comatose and I am not getting all the posts. We are going to eventually see a predominately iron meteorite which is going to have a legitimate "fusion crust" (meeting the definition). When I said "non -silicate" bearing I meant insignificant silicate content and was trying to establish and end point for a series, mineralogically and metaphorically speaking--otherwise... as has happened here time and time again, people start throwing in exceptions and progress stops. (e.g. Campo was non-silicate bearing until someone found a silicated batch). Discussion is complicated by the lack of adequate definitions/ descriptions. They abound especially in a rare commodity. For another vexing example of undefined: how many atoms of copper, gold or lead need be in a "glob" in a meteorite to legitimately say that a meteorite has native Cu, Au, or PB? Every meteorite has an C,A,P atom so or per billion but where do we draw the line on declaring it? So you all know where I am going with this: I would like to see a new list of terms used in our field which ensures we are discussing the same thing/feature observed on multiple meteorites. I think many agree that as the term fusion crust is now defined and how it is actually used to refer to every eventual possible appearance-- even on rusty iron shale( yes someone has offered "fusion crusted" iron shale before) and fusion crusted paleo meteorites-- are very different things and that we need a better convention of what is and or is not the result of flight and how it relates to surface features in general on all types of meteorites. Suprisingly, very little science has been focused on the formation and features of "fusion crust" especially compared to the internal content. Even less effort has been directed are promoting operational terms to describe what is observed on different surfaces. Personal business has taken me far from the list for several weeks so if I haven't addressed your message please feel free to resend. I may not be active on the beloved list but I am getting some lab work done and hope to announce some really neat things next year. Happy Thanksgiving for those that celebrate the season... Hope to be back before Christmas and BTW what dates are the Las Vegas(ahem)Gem and Mineral Show? Elton From cynapse at charter.net Fri Nov 20 00:41:15 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:41:15 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Mammoth extinction-- a wimper, not a bang In-Reply-To: <4B060140.4080700@meteoritesusa.com> References: <4B060140.4080700@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34046350/ns/technology_and_science-science/ Extinction of giant mammals altered landscape Different plant communities popped up, wildfires increased, study suggests The last breaths of mammoths and mastodons some 13,000 years ago have garnered plenty of research and just as much debate. What killed these large beasts in a relative instant of geologic time? A question asked less often: What happened when they disappeared? A new study, based partly on dung fungus, provides some answers to both questions. The upshot: The landscape changed dramatically. "As soon as herbivores drop off the landscape, we see different plant communities," said lead researcher Jacquelyn Gill of the University of Wisconsin, Madison, adding the result was an "ecosystem upheaval." Gill and her colleagues found that once emptied of a diversity of large animals equaling or surpassing that of Africa's Serengeti, the landscape completely changed. Trees once kept in check by the mammoth gang popped up and so did wildfires sparked by the woody debris. The results, which are detailed in the Nov. 20 issue of the journal Science, could paint a picture of what's to come if today's giant plant-eaters, such as elephants, disappear. "We know some of these large animals are among the most threatened that we have on the landscape today and they have a lot of large habitat requirements and they eat a lot of food," Gill told LiveScience. "If these animals go extinct we can expect the landscape will respond." Dung fungus Gill and her colleagues analyzed sediment samples collected from Appleman Lake in Indiana as well as data from sites in New York. They focused on a dung fungus called Sporormiella that must pass through a mammal's gut to complete its life cycle and reproduce via spores. More of such spores indicate more dung and more megafauna around to contribute to the fecal contents. Within that same sediment, the team looked at pollen and charcoal as proxies for vegetation and fires, respectively. Sediment layers accumulate over time and can indicate when the stuff embedded in it was around. By matching up the dung spores along with vegetation and fire indicators in certain layers, the researchers figured the large herbivores were already declining before the vegetation started changing or wildfires took off. The changes in spore abundance suggest the megafauna began to decline some time between 14,800 and 13,700 years ago. By 13,500 years ago, the decline was in full force, Gill said. Rather than getting vaporized in an instant, the results suggest the animals gradually dwindled for about 1,000 years. Here's how it may have gone down: The large herbivores started to decline. Without such leafy eaters to keep broad-leaved species in check, trees such as black ash and elm took over a landscape once dominated by conifers. Soon after, the accumulation of woody debris sparked an increase in wildfires, another key shaper of landscapes, the researchers say. What killed the mammoths? As for what drove the beasts into their graves, Gill says the findings don't put the nail in the coffin, but do rule out some ideas. To explain the extinction, scientists have put forth climate change, hunting by humans such as the Clovis people (known for using advanced spear tips), and even impact by a comet. The answer could be a combination of several factors, scientists say. Gill says this new study is a strong one because all of the evidence comes from one place, and so the researchers aren't making comparisons across different regions whose sediments may be off in terms of timing. If the timing is accurate, as Gill says it should be, the findings can rule out the idea of a meteor or comet killing off the creatures some 13,000 years ago. And since the plant community didn't change until after the big guys began to decline, that's a mark against climate change. (A warming climate was considered the cause of a revamping of vegetation, and thus animal habitat.) "At this site, we can say that habitat loss didn't cause the decline, because the major habitat shift happens after the collapse [of the megafauna]," Gill said. "And habitat change is a big line of argument in the climate camp. If climate change is causing these extinctions, you'll have to evoke another process than habitat loss." Hunting, at least that by the Clovis people, can also be ruled out at the site. "It seems as though the animals were already in decline by the time [Clovis] people adopted this tool kit," Gill said, referring to the advanced spear tips thought to be more efficient at taking down large prey than hunting instruments used by humans prior to the Clovis. The new study was funded by the Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation, the UW-Madison Center for Climatic Research in the Nelson Institute for Environmental Studies, and the National Science Foundation. From cynapse at charter.net Fri Nov 20 00:57:07 2009 From: cynapse at charter.net (Darren Garrison) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:57:07 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] More on big dead (but not so suddenly) animals In-Reply-To: References: <4B060140.4080700@meteoritesusa.com> Message-ID: http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1120/p02s13-usgn.html The mystery of the mastodons gets a few big clues When and how mammoths and mastodons went extinct has long puzzled scientists. But a new study suggests the animals vanished much earlier than previously thought. By Peter N. Spotts | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor from the November 19, 2009 edition Ever since Europeans first uncovered mastodon fossils along Big Bone Lick in Kentucky in 1739, the demise of these huge animals and other lumbering contemporaries at the end of the last ice age has been an enduring puzzle to paleontologists. Now, a team of researchers has evidence that woolly mammoths, huge ground sloths, and other Pleistocene giants became extinct earlier than previously thought. The results appear to rule out at least one explanation scientists have offered up to explain the creatures' demise: an asteroid strike. Other theories ? such as climate change and human hunters ? remain possible, though the findings would shift the timeline more than 1,000 years backward. Moreover, the research intriguingly suggests that the decline led to significant changes in the types and groupings of different plants within the animals' range, as well as an increase in the number of wildfires. In other words, it could have literally altered the landscape. An 'elegant' study The work, which was conducted at Appleman Lake in Indiana, is "elegant," says Eric Scott, a paleontologist at the San Berbardino County Museum who focuses on Pleistocene fossils, in an e-mail. It neatly sidesteps a significant challenge paleontologists studying this issue face: "There is lack of sufficient numbers of well-dated vertebrate fossils, from multiple sites, from the time period in question," writes Dr. Scott. Jaquelyn Gill, a graduate student on the research team at Appleman Lake, overcame that hurdle in an ingenious way: She used a particular species of fungus, Sporormiella, as a stand-in for the huge mammals. Sporormiella needs the digestive tracts of plant-eating animals to complete its life cycle. Spores found in fossilized dung have been associated with the huge animals, called megafauna. "The use of Sporormiella as a proxy for the megaherbivores is rather inspired," Scott adds. Surprise results The results were something of a surprise, says John Williams, a University of Wisconsin paleoecologist and a member of the research team. He and his colleagues had set out to study changes to plant communities during one period of the Pleistocene. They sought to gauge the relative role climate and the presence of huge mammals may have played in altering the mix of vegetation. The group was looking for clues that might help scientists anticipate potential ecological changes ahead as global warming progresses this century. "Everything is happening all at once" during the time period his research targeted, he explains. "We see ice sheets retreating. We see carbon-dioxide concentrations rising. We see a major turnover in plant communities. Humans are arriving. And there's this set of large animals going extinct." He and most of his colleagues suspected that climate change was the biggest driver behind the changes in plant communities at the time of the megaherbivores. But the results offer another possible interpretation: that it was the decline of the big animals that had the greatest impact on plant groupings. The decline in megafauna clearly overlapped changes in plant groupings and changes in the presence of significant charcoal deposits, the research team found. This suggests that forests might have spread as megafauna declined. Big animals, especially mammoths and mastodons, would have munched on small trees and saplings, limiting the expansion of woodlands. The spread of forests, then, would have provided fuel for more wildfires. "What was very striking to me was how closely associated these three major things are," Dr. Williams says. Revising the timeline The timing seems to rule out three notions of what triggered the extinction of megafauna: ? A major collision between Earth and an asteroid or comet about 12,900 years ago ? The onset of a 1,300 year-long cold spell known as the Younger Dryas, which kicked in roughly 12,800 years ago. ? A blitzkrieg-like onslaught of human hunters as early as 13,300 years ago. Yet climate and human involvement can't be ruled out, Williams says. The decline in megafauna does coincide with the onset of warming coming out of the last ice age. And some evidence suggests that humans were present on the continent at that time. The team anticipates using its fungal-spore approach to expand its research beyond Appleman Lake to see if a similar picture emerges at other places around the country. From erikfwebb at msn.com Fri Nov 20 01:22:37 2009 From: erikfwebb at msn.com (Erik Fisler) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:22:37 -0700 Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 20, 2009 In-Reply-To: <1061035115.14071258686200255.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> References: <1061035115.14071258686200255.JavaMail.root@mbs13.homesteadmail.com> Message-ID: Very nice find.? Keep up the good work Sonny. [Erik] > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:03:20 -0800 > From: michael at rocksfromspace.org > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - November 20, 2009 > > http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_20_2009.html > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From info at niger-meteorite-recon.de Fri Nov 20 02:21:41 2009 From: info at niger-meteorite-recon.de (info at niger-meteorite-recon.de) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 08:21:41 +0100 (CET) Subject: [meteorite-list] Clarification.. Was Fusion Crust on Irons In-Reply-To: <638229.27884.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <638229.27884.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <640030046.488632.1258701701249.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxltgw03.schlund.de> Elton, ?Could you please name the significant source you refer to by presuming that the term fusion crust is only valid when describing crusts made up of glass/silicate components? ? I'm asking because the discussion so far did not provide any intelligent reason why this should make any sense at all. Perhaps it would be a good idea to start from there. ? Svend ? ? www.meteorite-recon.com ? MEM hat am 20. November 2009 um 06:08 geschrieben: > Again Yahoo is near comatose and I am not getting all the posts. > > We are going to eventually see a predominately iron meteorite which is going > to have a legitimate "fusion crust" (meeting the definition). > > When I said "non -silicate" bearing I meant insignificant silicate content and > was trying to establish and end point for a series, mineralogically and > metaphorically speaking--otherwise... as has happened here time and time > again, people start throwing in exceptions and progress stops.? (e.g. Campo > was non-silicate bearing until someone found a silicated batch). > > Discussion is complicated by the lack of adequate definitions/ descriptions. > They abound especially in a rare commodity. For another vexing example of > undefined: how many atoms of copper, gold or lead need be in a "glob" in a > meteorite to legitimately say that a meteorite has native Cu, Au, or PB? Every > meteorite has an C,A,P atom so or per billion but where do we draw the line on > declaring it? > > > So you all know where I am going with this:? I would like to see a new list of > terms used in our field which ensures we are discussing the same thing/feature > observed on multiple meteorites.? I think many agree that as the term fusion > crust is now defined and how it is actually used to refer to every eventual > possible appearance-- even on rusty iron shale( yes someone has offered > "fusion crusted" iron shale before) and fusion crusted paleo meteorites-- are > very different things and that we need a better convention of what is and or > is not the result of flight and how it relates to surface features in general > on all types of meteorites.? Suprisingly, very little science has been focused > on the formation and features of "fusion crust" especially compared to the > internal content. Even less effort has been directed are promoting operational > terms to describe what is observed on different surfaces. > > Personal business has taken me far from the list for several weeks so if I > haven't addressed your message please feel free to resend. I may not be active > on the beloved list but I am getting some lab work done and hope to announce > some really neat things next year. > > Happy Thanksgiving for those that celebrate the season...? Hope to be back > before Christmas and BTW what dates are the Las Vegas(ahem)Gem and Mineral > Show? > > Elton > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From meteoritekid at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 06:58:19 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:58:19 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ablation Zone 5 Layers...Not Message-ID: <93aaac890911200358i28916c75y6ce699e18422829b@mail.gmail.com> Hello Elton, All, I'm going to go through this bit by bit to do it justice... > Yes on a freshly recovered iron, there appears to be a "film" of what we believe is "magnetite-like oxide/nitride micro-crystals, probably including some sulfide and phosphide minerals" which form through interaction with hot atmospheric plasma. ?Even though some of it is magnetic, some of it is easily dislodged with a wipe of the finger. I assume this coating is relatable to the iridescent film which often coats stony meteorites - the film that often disappears within days of a fall. >I surmise that this rapidly goes to hematite or limonite but I've not thought through the chemistry and I suspect a valence discrepancy that makes this type meteoric "magnetite" unstable. The mineral assemblage in the coating/film is a result of passage through the atmosphere and not per se the resulting changes that occur with the passage of time on the surface. I shall point you toward this photograph of the external surface of a Sikhote-Alin. This iron was found ~50+ years after falling and still retained its exterior surface. The features you see are not made of melted Fe, but of an outer coating of iron oxide which formed during atmospheric descent. http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/2335664239/sizes/l/ > ?I think I can proffer an argument for what is and is not a scientifically underpinned definition of "crust" but I'll work on that later. For the time being the use of "crust" by present definition involves glass and last time I checked there is no such thing as "iron glass". Where did you get this definition? Why is it more valid than the one accepted by Buchwald, Nininger, Krinov, and the folks at the USNM? Why does fusion crust *have* to have glass in it? Honestly, this whole thing seems like a semantics battle on your part. >We expect to find something analogous to "crust" so we call what we see "crust"-- I understand that. But when we stray too far everything including dust mites, rust and, fungus gets called fusion crust. Right. Here: http://www.aerolite.org/catalogue/sikhote-alin-aaa-33-2.htm What you're looking at is the original external surface of the iron, made of that FeO layer that you keep insisting isn't fusion crust. It's perfectly analogous to the crust of stony meteorites, except, of course, in that it contains no glass. > As there is also a surface bluing occasionally observed (much like after welding) this may be a directly formed oxide/nitride layer of chemically altered meteorite while emerging from the incandescent phase of flight but since I am unsure of the composition I'll leave it out of the below discussion. I've seen that on stony meteorites as well. But since you're leaving it out, there's no real need to address it. >?Chances are it is also quickly lost to weathering on the surface--even in the museum drawer. Maybe. I saw some pretty Oum Dreyga's with such a film still present as of this winter - in a drawer in Alain Carion's shop in Paris. As such, I have the feeling that such layers may not simply sublimate with time, but they do seem to disappear rather rapidly when meteorites are left in the field. >The bottom line here is: we have to accept the probability of an ever-evolving surface on our meteorites. ?Some happen quickly and may be gone in a flash and some oh so slowly. This should not deter us however from discussing the basis for each step that comes and goes. This also has nothing to do with our argument, for the most part. I don't think there's anyone here who denies such a fact, so stating it is somewhat superfluous. > I believe to discuss meteorite surface features e.g crust, non crust, flow lines, ripples, regmaglypts, pits, bubbles, and all the variations, we should come to a working definition in general principle of what to call them so we know we are discussing the same thing. Sounds good to me. > Part of that is acceptance that there is an "ablation/ablated zone" generally 2-6mm from the physical surface where the meteoroid last interacted with the heat of reentry. This zone my eventually be proved a new type of "rind", geologically speaking. Unfortunately, it's hard to gauge whether or not such a feature truly exists on stony meteorites because, due to their decreased conductivity, this heating does not occur over distances quite so large. See page two. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1982Metic..17...27R So there's kind of an "ablationary rind," but it really only exists to the extent that you just noted in iron meteorites... > Of the layers physically present, I see two branches/variations which we may reintegrate but for ease of discussion the first is mostly the non-silicate bearing iron branch of "layers": So we *are* talking about irons' fusion crusts...ok... > The ablated/ablation zone includes amongst it layers: > 1)Lost Layer/ Null layer: The material which is missing, includes ALL the material which is no longer there which we may conclude was lost from its pre-entry form due to atmospheric interaction. ?It may be marginal but may be needed to discuss surface depth in relation to cosmic ray tracks 14C concentrations, etc. O...k....the stuff that's no longer there. A wordy description, but sure. Call it what you will. > 2) Oxide Film or Coating: There is a layer of non-physically/non-chemically, bonded oxide film which is not persistent, subject to rapid erosion/weathering, abrasion etc. This represents a condensation coating which is applied after ablation stops. (See bluing discussion also) Such a coating forms on irons and stones alike, though - iridescent films have been reported on many freshly fallen meteorites, regardless of type. > 2a) This is where fusion crust might be found if there were normally crystalline molecules that melted and quickly quenched leaving an anamorphic solid. But what we know as true fusion crust is more complicated than that and is largely governed by the composition of the meteoroid. You breeze over it so nicely, without addressing the issue. Hum. Well, again, I don't know why you insist on the glassy nature of a fusion crust: I really can't fight your definition of it, because it simply doesn't make any sense. There's no reason to draw the line there, and I can't think of a single reason why fusion crust should *have to* contain glass. Knowing meteorites, I would define the fusion crust as the layer of meteoric material transformed into melt during a meteorite's ablative stages of flight, which later solidifies into a solid coating of material on the surface of the stone, iron, what have you. I see no reason to insist on glass - I agree that making a distinction between the properties of stones' versus irons' fusion crusts and their structures might well be a worthwhile endeavor, but insisting on calling the crust that forms on irons 'not a fusion crust' seems a pointless task. > 3)Flow/ Thermodynamic Features: > 3a)There may be a layer of flow streams/esker-like inverted stream channels where molten material, which escaped evaporation and,, was displaced from one spot to another where it may have been redeposited. ?Regardless it is an artifact of reentry and we may also include it in the subset of features we refer to as "flight markings" This is a gray area also because this is more akin to a surface feature than a true layer but I throw it out on the table for discussion. There will be occasional features which represent movement of material over top of a previously ablated surface and time and consensus will determine if it merits a layer designation. I disagree; such structures are merely features of the aforementioned fusion crust layer, and should be deemed synonymous with said layer. They are, after all, composed of the same materials, and one is not below or above the other layer; you're talking about the same stuff here. These features are made of the fusion crust noted above, so calling them a distinct layer seems pointless. You're not even arguing the difference between icing and frosting. You're arguing a difference between frosting and thick frosting. It just doesn't make sense. > 3b)There is also the occasional surface feature (semi flow) (which may or may not be a layer) of plastically deformed "ripple-marks" which give a satiny, wavy, micro "ridge and valley" pattern not unlike the depth and texture of fingerprints (NOTE this is not the same as "thumb-print" regmyglipts) Not all irons have this very thin layer. These ripple marks appear to form via fluid dynamics. ?I surmise (but have yet to prove) these are ripple marks of a extremely short-lived state where semi-molten metal is plastic enough to deform along lines where superheated gas eroding gas passing in both laminar and turbulent flow over the continuously evolving surface of the meteoroid. ?It leaves, a row and furrow/valley and ridge/ripple-like marking, submilimeter in depth. ?This results in that "less than glossy","satin-like" sheen seen on some meteorites--This is legitimate flight marking and therefore may actually be a surface feature and not a true layer but, a > ?variation on the ablation surface. I am leaning toward this being a surface feature vs an independent layer. See the specimen in my flickr stream pictured above. This "layer," as the one before it, is synonymous with fusion crust. > 4)Ablation surface: It is included to distinguish from the newly fallen surface any weathered/flaking/rusting surface all too frequently mistakenly called "fusion crust" on Canyon Diablos, Natans ?etc. Crust if present sits atop the ablation surface as it represents incorporated atmospheric gasses and possible re-deposition of Physically and chemically altered material from another location on the meteoroid, etc. ?Surface features can be in the ablation surface or above it depending on their origins. The ablation surface is a distinct demarkation between what was removed and what remained even if subsequently it bubbled into fusion crust or represents a redeposition of condensate from this ablative/ heating/ shearing process--which also needs a generic but descriptive name! False. Completely and utterly incorrect. You're talking about the surface of the iron meteorite itself, below the fusion crust. How on earth can you put this "layer" between the fusion crust and the reheated rim when many Canyon Diablos and Nantans have seen so much weathering so as to lose any trace of their original reheated rims!? The only irons I have *ever* seen to possess such a surface are desert irons, where the crust has been stripped from the fresh metal, allowing for a thin coating of desert varnish on the exposed iron (any substantial oxidation would destroy this "layer"), and on antarctic irons, where a similar process often occurs. Canyon Diablo and Nantan are examples of irons where the crust has been removed - along with countless mm or cm of material. This "layer," as you define it, does *not* exist on such irons. Oh - Sikhotes sometimes exhibit such a surface as weathering has removed patches of fusion crust while leaving the surface of the iron relatively unaltered. It's a good thing they're so fresh or this wouldn't be true... > 5)TAZ: ?Thermally Altered Zone: in this zone is the material which was not displaced nor reformed, per se-- but was thermally altered to a major or minor degree. Some volatile gases my have been out gassed but a major effect would be resetting magnetic orientation within the zone. ?There are means to analyze how deeply and to what range of elevated temperatures this zone was subjected to. Well, the major effect generally noted is the recrystallization of the meteoric material, but sure - this is a legitimate "layer." > 6) All the remaining material largely unaffected by the change in address from solar orbit to our collections. A place holder for the time being but all that which is not a part of the ablation zone. > I'll leave it there for tonight and for a straw man suggest there are 5 layers(on irons at least) in the "Ablation Zone". These layers are thick or thin; regions of original material which were in someway altered /affected by the dynamics of passage through the atmosphere. Right, well...you have my point of view. It's based on the fact that the fusion crusts on iron meteorites and on stony meteorites form through the same general processes into analogous structures and function in the same way on both types of meteorites. Your insisting on glass being a component of fusion crust seems as likely to be present due to a misinterpretation of some archaic article, as best I can tell, so I really don't know what to say. You keep stating the a fusion crust must contain glass 'because it is defined that way,' but when I stand back and ask the obvious question - 'why is it defined as such, and does that make sense,' all I get in response is a reiteration of your conviction that fusion crust is defined as such, and the definition cannot be changed. Science is change, Elton. The trouble with this point, though, is that you've taken up the conservative mantle of "no change" when I cannot find a single reference anywhere that states that fusion crust *must* contain glass. All of the literature from NIninger to Buchwald, to Krinov, to modern-day descriptions of meteorites entering the USNM from Antarctica - they all state that irons have fusion crusts. In other words, you're saying the definition shouldn't be changed from one in which glass is an indisputable component of fusion crust when that's not stated anywhere in the first place. You can't advocate *maintaining* a definition when it's *never* been accepted as fact, because that's not how definitions work. It needs to be accepted before you can try to "keep it accepted." Otherwise you're just advocating a new theory based on the historical merit of the theory - which, if it has never been accepted in the first place, is simply circular reasoning. You're the one advocating a backwards sort of change, Elton. We're going along with accepted meteoritics. And unless you have a reason to say that glass is an inherent component of what we are to deem fusion crust, I suggest that you come up with a better reason than "it's defined that way," because it's getting old. Regards, Jason > --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Martin Altmann wrote: > >> From: Martin Altmann >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not >> To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 7:21 AM >> Unlike in politics and public opinion >> (and sometimes in science), >> in meteoritics it sometimes can be more difficult to adhere to >> theories/legends,if one gets samples in ones very hands, which exhibit the opposite of that, the theory postulates. >> >> If you ever had an early picked Sikhote at hand, >> or if you had taken from Andi Gren's Boguslavka slices >> (a fall, who simply hadn't enough time in field, to develop >> a magnetite, wuestite, limonite or whatever -ite weathering crust), >> you would be very surprised. >> >> Cause they don't display that ominous blue-ish flimsy >> luster, which is often reported as fusion crust, but a thick and fat layer of a discernibly different matter than the material beneath, of a dark color and rough to silky surface. >> >> I never believed in iron fusion crusts neither, but when I >> got in these freshly picked up observed falls, I was disabused. >> >> Main problem in that question is, as it was correctly >> mentioned here, that we simply have so few pristine samples of fresh iron falls and that most irons we get in our collections arrive with weathered or artificially cleaned surfaces. >> >> Now you may argue about the word "crust" as a >> (pseudo-)scientific term...well for me scientific terms are best, when they keep most of their meaning they have in their common use in the language. And there crust - meant for me a layer on the outside of an object. > >> .....and we have the problem, that there exist these >> freshly fallen lumps with that strange crust. Shall we hide them in the deepest corner of our drawers, cause they don't fit in the axiom, that fusion crusts are fusion crusts only, when silicates are melting? >> >> Sometimes, if the results don't fit into a theory, one has >> to think about modifying the theory, >> >> Else there wouldn't be no meteorites in our sense at all, >> Nada, Niente, Nix, Nimic, cause we all would know that they are products of our Aristotelian atmosphere, solidfied accumulations of terrestrial vapours and probably created by lightning strokes,wouldn't we? >> >> Best! >> Martin > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 20 09:01:18 2009 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (MEM) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:01:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Ablation Zone 5 Layers...Not In-Reply-To: <93aaac890911200358i28916c75y6ce699e18422829b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <730569.7558.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Dear Jason If everything is a part of the fusion crust than every meteorite is fusion crusted end of discussion. So are you really saying that every meteorite regardless of how condition has fusion crust even if all the extra trans-located material is missing? I don't have the luxury of going point by point as you have but apparently you are unfamiliar with the Oxford and Cambridge dictionary definitions as well as all their Dictionaries of Geology. Most of the literature and practically all of the referenced websites use the silicate glassy/glassy term in defining fusion crust--and in context they are most always speaking of stoney meteorites. We've been down this discussion before and while I respect Buchwald's observations: he is an industrial metallurgist and had no training I can see in mineralogy nor geology. He became a iron meteorite subject matter expert in his own right( I don't know that he ever did any work on any other type. I see no incentive on his part to reevaluate the surface changes as he was focused on cataloging the interior features. Somehow I don't think "crust" was an issue for him and in the absence of inquiry into the use of the term there was never a need to rethink it. He has an email address--write him and ask him what he meant. Nininiger was a biology teacher and while another legitimate self-made expert in the field it wasn't technically oriented until late in his career. This shouldn't be taken as disrespectful and doesn't mean that everything he assumed was gospel-- especially given the state of scientific tools in his lifetime. He laid the foundation for meteoritical study but that doesn't mean he knew all there was to know about meteorites. His book about meteorite surface features was mainly a photo documentation with little analysis and generally lacking in comparative studies of the crust. Much of this argument that they are "the experts" and as such are infallible, is misguided and out of context, as the tools available now are vastly more quantitative than tools of their day. So is our body of knowledge more complete than during their careers. ( I am calling the ablation surface below any "crust" feature because well...it is. The ablation surface is the last level we can ascertain the fusion has occurred. When the crust is worn away the ablation surface is revealed. I am also not calling the oxide coating a "fusion crust" because,... well...it isn't ( necessarily) fused material and represents either condensation or contact metamorphism of the final flight air soaked, modified surface. I am also not calling the surface of SA's which show aero-thermo-dynamic interaction that form the troughs "crust" because partial melting/softening/gas jet ablation does not meet the definition of fusion/fusing. How you see it as fusion crust illustrates my point that we call everything fusion crust when it is not even fused material. I think it deserves a more objective review and understanding of the complexities and not reduced to a universal simplicity. As to my point about extensively rusted/shalely Canyon Diablos being said to have "fusion crust", sounds like we are in violent agreement. The point of addressing the loss of the coating over time was to suggest further inquiry into what the actual chemical composition was and to indicate I felt it was a class of mineral/compounds which were unstable in an oxygen rich atmosphere. Again --some irons have apparent classical fusion crust but, I have to disagree that all irons have fusion crust--that is why ablation surface is an important distinction and is better nomenclature that serves as a starting point for discussing all meteorite surfaces and where crust begins and ends. I believe when and where it is found it needs as much analytical scrutiny as we spend on the interior so we know its source material and how it came to be crust. Rather than me reiterate what I've already addressed perhaps you would like to read it more collaboratively as some of what you replied to skipped over where there is agreement and also you've challenged the studies about how deeply thermal alteration occurs in different meteorites. I am not ready to roll over on the claim that a chemically bonded oxide constitutes fusion crust unless you want to drop the word fusion. I proposed some terms for use in defining a meteorite's surface more descriptively. Other than disagree out of principle, you didn't give a counter argument as to why the model I laid out was in error. Finally I will reiterate the problems with trying to have a reasonable succinct discussion when out of context examples are introduced as if they were the rule rather than the exception they are. Elton --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Jason Utas wrote: > From: Jason Utas > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ablation Zone 5 Layers...Not > To: "Meteorite-list" > Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 6:58 AM > Hello Elton, All, > I'm going to go through this bit by bit to do it > justice... > > > > Yes on a freshly recovered iron, there appears to be a > "film" of what we believe is "magnetite-like oxide/nitride > micro-crystals, probably including some sulfide and > phosphide minerals" which form through interaction with hot > atmospheric plasma. ?Even though some of it is magnetic, > some of it is easily dislodged with a wipe of the finger. > > > I assume this coating is relatable to the iridescent film > which often coats stony meteorites - the film that often disappears > within days of a fall. > > >I surmise that this rapidly goes to hematite or > limonite but I've not thought through the chemistry and I > suspect a valence discrepancy that makes this type meteoric > "magnetite" unstable. The mineral assemblage in the > coating/film is a result of passage through the atmosphere > and not per se the resulting changes that occur with the > passage of time on the surface. > > > I shall point you toward this photograph of the external > surface of a Sikhote-Alin.? This iron was found ~50+ years after > falling and still retained its exterior surface.? The features you see > are not made of melted Fe, but of an outer coating of iron oxide which > formed during atmospheric descent. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/2335664239/sizes/l/ > > > > ?I think I can proffer an argument for what is and is > not a scientifically underpinned definition of "crust" but > I'll work on that later. For the time being the use of > "crust" by present definition involves glass and last time I > checked there is no such thing as "iron glass". > > > Where did you get this definition?? Why is it more > valid than the one > accepted by Buchwald, Nininger, Krinov, and the folks at > the USNM? > Why does fusion crust *have* to have glass in it?? > Honestly, this > whole thing seems like a semantics battle on your part. > > > >We expect to find something analogous to "crust" so we > call what we see "crust"-- I understand that. But when we > stray too far everything including dust mites, rust and, > fungus gets called fusion crust. > > > Right. > Here: > > http://www.aerolite.org/catalogue/sikhote-alin-aaa-33-2.htm > > What you're looking at is the original external surface of > the iron, made of that FeO layer that you keep insisting isn't fusion > crust.It's perfectly analogous to the crust of stony meteorites, > except, of course, in that it contains no glass. > > > > As there is also a surface bluing occasionally > observed (much like after welding) this may be a directly > formed oxide/nitride layer of chemically altered meteorite > while emerging from the incandescent phase of flight but > since I am unsure of the composition I'll leave it out of > the below discussion. > > > I've seen that on stony meteorites as well.? But since > you're leaving it out, there's no real need to address it. > > > >?Chances are it is also quickly lost to weathering on > the surface--even in the museum drawer. > > > Maybe.? I saw some pretty Oum Dreyga's with such a > film still present as of this winter - in a drawer in Alain Carion's shop in Paris.? As such, I have the feeling that such layers may not simply sublimate with time, but they do seem to disappear rather rapidly > when meteorites are left in the field. > > > >The bottom line here is: we have to accept the > probability of an ever-evolving surface on our meteorites. > Some happen quickly and may be gone in a flash and some oh > so slowly. This should not deter us however from discussing > the basis for each step that comes and goes. > > > This also has nothing to do with our argument, for the most > part.? I don't think there's anyone here who denies such a fact, so > stating it is somewhat superfluous. > > > I believe to discuss meteorite surface features e.g > crust, non crust, flow lines, ripples, regmaglypts, pits, > bubbles, and all the variations, we should come to a working > definition in general principle of what to call them so we > know we are discussing the same thing. > > > Sounds good to me. > > > > Part of that is acceptance that there is an > "ablation/ablated zone" generally 2-6mm from the physical > surface where the meteoroid last interacted with the heat of > reentry. This zone my eventually be proved a new type of > "rind", geologically speaking. > > > Unfortunately, it's hard to gauge whether or not such a > feature truly > exists on stony meteorites because, due to their decreased > conductivity, this heating does not occur over distances > quite so large. > > See page two. > > http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1982Metic..17...27R > > So there's kind of an "ablationary rind," but it really > only exists to the extent that you just noted in iron meteorites... > > Of the layers physically present, I see two > branches/variations which we may reintegrate but for ease of > discussion the first is mostly the non-silicate bearing iron > branch of "layers": > > So we *are* talking about irons' fusion crusts...ok... > > > The ablated/ablation zone includes amongst it layers: > > > 1)Lost Layer/ Null layer: The material which is > missing, includes ALL the material which is no longer there > which we may conclude was lost from its pre-entry form due > to atmospheric interaction. ?It may be marginal but may be > needed to discuss surface depth in relation to cosmic ray > tracks 14C concentrations, etc. > > O...k....the stuff that's no longer there.? A wordy > description, but > sure.? Call it what you will. > > > 2) Oxide Film or Coating: There is a layer of > non-physically/non-chemically, bonded oxide film which is > not persistent, subject to rapid erosion/weathering, > abrasion etc. This represents a condensation coating which > is applied after ablation stops. (See bluing discussion > also) > > Such a coating forms on irons and stones alike, though - > iridescent films have been reported on many freshly fallen meteorites, > regardless of type. > > > 2a) This is where fusion crust might be found if there > were normally crystalline molecules that melted and quickly > quenched leaving an anamorphic solid. But what we know as > true fusion crust is more complicated than that and is > largely governed by the composition of the meteoroid. > > You breeze over it so nicely, without addressing the > issue.? Hum. Well, again, I don't know why you insist on the glassy > nature of a fusion crust: I really can't fight your definition of it, > because it simply doesn't make any sense.? There's no reason to > draw the line there, and I can't think of a single reason why fusion > crust should *have to* contain glass.? Knowing meteorites, I would > define the fusion crust as the layer of meteoric material transformed > into melt during a meteorite's ablative stages of flight, which later > solidifies into a solid coating of material on the surface of the > stone, iron, what have you.? I see no reason to insist on glass - I > agree that making a distinction between the properties of stones' > versus irons' fusion crusts and their structures might well be a > worthwhile endeavor, but insisting on calling the crust that forms on > irons 'not a fusion crust' seems a pointless task. > > > 3)Flow/ Thermodynamic Features: > > > 3a)There may be a layer of flow streams/esker-like > inverted stream channels where molten material, which > escaped evaporation and,, was displaced from one spot to > another where it may have been redeposited. ?Regardless it > is an artifact of reentry and we may also include it in the > subset of features we refer to as "flight markings" This is > a gray area also because this is more akin to a surface > feature than a true layer but I throw it out on the table > for discussion. There will be occasional features which > represent movement of material over top of a previously > ablated surface and time and consensus will determine if it > merits a layer designation. > > I disagree; such structures are merely features of the > aforementioned fusion crust layer, and should be deemed synonymous with said layer. > They are, after all, composed of the same materials, and > one is not > below or above the other layer; you're talking about the > same stuff > here. > These features are made of the fusion crust noted above, so > calling > them a distinct layer seems pointless. > You're not even arguing the difference between icing and > frosting. > You're arguing a difference between frosting and thick > frosting.? It > just doesn't make sense. > > > 3b)There is also the occasional surface feature (semi > flow) (which may or may not be a layer) of plastically > deformed "ripple-marks" which give a satiny, wavy, micro > "ridge and valley" pattern not unlike the depth and texture > of fingerprints (NOTE this is not the same as "thumb-print" > regmyglipts) Not all irons have this very thin layer. These > ripple marks appear to form via fluid dynamics. ?I surmise > (but have yet to prove) these are ripple marks of a > extremely short-lived state where semi-molten metal is > plastic enough to deform along lines where superheated gas > eroding gas passing in both laminar and turbulent flow over > the continuously evolving surface of the meteoroid. ?It > leaves, a row and furrow/valley and ridge/ripple-like > marking, submilimeter in depth. ?This results in that "less > than glossy","satin-like" sheen seen on some > meteorites--This is legitimate flight marking and therefore > may actually be a surface feature and not a true layer but, > a > > ?variation on the ablation surface. I am leaning > toward this being a surface feature vs an independent > layer. > > See the specimen in my flickr stream pictured above.? > This "layer," as > the one before it, is synonymous with fusion crust. > > > 4)Ablation surface: It is included to distinguish from > the newly fallen surface any weathered/flaking/rusting > surface all too frequently mistakenly called "fusion crust" > on Canyon Diablos, Natans ?etc. Crust if present sits atop > the ablation surface as it represents incorporated > atmospheric gasses and possible re-deposition of Physically > and chemically altered material from another location on the > meteoroid, etc. ?Surface features can be in the ablation > surface or above it depending on their origins. The ablation > surface is a distinct demarkation between what was removed > and what remained even if subsequently it bubbled into > fusion crust or represents a redeposition of condensate from > this ablative/ heating/ shearing process--which also needs a > generic but descriptive name! > > False.? Completely and utterly incorrect. > You're talking about the surface of the iron meteorite > itself, below > the fusion crust. > How on earth can you put this "layer" between the fusion > crust and the > reheated rim when many Canyon Diablos and Nantans have seen > so much > weathering so as to lose any trace of their original > reheated rims!? > The only irons I have *ever* seen to possess such a surface > are desert > irons, where the crust has been stripped from the fresh > metal, > allowing for a thin coating of desert varnish on the > exposed iron (any > substantial oxidation would destroy this "layer"), and on > antarctic > irons, where a similar process often occurs. > Canyon Diablo and Nantan are examples of irons where the > crust has > been removed - along with countless mm or cm of > material.? This > "layer," as you define it, does *not* exist on such irons. > > Oh - Sikhotes sometimes exhibit such a surface as > weathering has > removed patches of fusion crust while leaving the surface > of the iron > relatively unaltered.? It's a good thing they're so > fresh or this > wouldn't be true... > > > 5)TAZ: ?Thermally Altered Zone: in this zone is the > material which was not displaced nor reformed, per se-- but > was thermally altered to a major or minor degree. Some > volatile gases my have been out gassed but a major effect > would be resetting magnetic orientation within the zone. > ?There are means to analyze how deeply and to what range of > elevated temperatures this zone was subjected to. > > Well, the major effect generally noted is the > recrystallization of the > meteoric material, but sure - this is a legitimate > "layer." > > > 6) All the remaining material largely unaffected by > the change in address from solar orbit to our collections. A > place holder for the time being but all that which is not a > part of the ablation zone. > > I'll leave it there for tonight and for a straw man > suggest there are 5 layers(on irons at least) in the > "Ablation Zone". These layers are thick or thin; regions of > original material which were in someway altered /affected by > the dynamics of passage through the atmosphere. > > Right, well...you have my point of view.? It's based > on the fact that > the fusion crusts on iron meteorites and on stony > meteorites form > through the same general processes into analogous > structures and > function in the same way on both types of meteorites.? > Your insisting > on glass being a component of fusion crust seems as likely > to be > present due to a misinterpretation of some archaic article, > as best I > can tell, so I really don't know what to say.? You > keep stating the a > fusion crust must contain glass 'because it is defined that > way,' but > when I stand back and ask the obvious question - 'why is it > defined as > such, and does that make sense,' all I get in response is > a > reiteration of your conviction that fusion crust is defined > as such, > and the definition cannot be changed. > > Science is change, Elton. > > The trouble with this point, though, is that you've taken > up the > conservative mantle of "no change" when I cannot find a > single > reference anywhere that states that fusion crust *must* > contain glass. > All of the literature from NIninger to Buchwald, to > Krinov, to > modern-day descriptions of meteorites entering the USNM > from > Antarctica - they all state that irons have fusion crusts. > > In other words, you're saying the definition shouldn't be > changed from > one in which glass is an indisputable component of fusion > crust when > that's not stated anywhere in the first place. > You can't advocate *maintaining* a definition when it's > *never* been > accepted as fact, because that's not how definitions > work.? It needs > to be accepted before you can try to "keep it > accepted."? Otherwise > you're just advocating a new theory based on the historical > merit of > the theory - which, if it has never been accepted in the > first place, > is simply circular reasoning. > > You're the one advocating a backwards sort of change, > Elton.? We're > going along with accepted meteoritics.? And unless you > have a reason > to say that glass is an inherent component of what we are > to deem > fusion crust, I suggest that you come up with a better > reason than > "it's defined that way," because it's getting old. > > Regards, > Jason > > > --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Martin Altmann > wrote: > > > >> From: Martin Altmann > >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on > Irons--Not > >> To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 7:21 AM > >> Unlike in politics and public opinion > >> (and sometimes in science), > >> in meteoritics it sometimes can be more difficult > to adhere to > >> theories/legends,if one gets samples in ones very > hands, which exhibit the opposite of that, the theory > postulates. > >> > >> If you ever had an early picked Sikhote at hand, > >> or if you had taken from Andi Gren's Boguslavka > slices > >> (a fall, who simply hadn't enough time in field, > to develop > >> a magnetite, wuestite, limonite or whatever -ite > weathering crust), > >> you would be very surprised. > >> > >> Cause they don't display that ominous blue-ish > flimsy > >> luster, which is often reported as fusion crust, > but a thick and fat layer of a discernibly different matter > than the material beneath, of a dark color and rough to > silky surface. > >> > >> I never believed in iron fusion crusts neither, > but when I > >> got in these freshly picked up observed falls, I > was disabused. > >> > >> Main problem in that question is, as it was > correctly > >> mentioned here, that we simply have so few > pristine samples of fresh iron falls and that most irons we > get in our collections arrive with weathered or artificially > cleaned surfaces. > >> > >> Now you may argue about the word "crust" as a > >> (pseudo-)scientific term...well for me scientific > terms are best, when they keep most of their meaning they > have in their common use in the language. And there crust - > meant for me a layer on the outside of an object. > > > >> .....and we have the problem, that there exist > these > >> freshly fallen lumps with that strange crust. > Shall we hide them in the deepest corner of our drawers, > cause they don't fit in the axiom, that fusion crusts are > fusion crusts only, when silicates are melting? > >> > >> Sometimes, if the results don't fit into a theory, > one has > >> to think about modifying the theory, > >> > >> Else there wouldn't be no meteorites in our sense > at all, > >> Nada, Niente, Nix, Nimic, cause we all would know > that they are products of our Aristotelian atmosphere, > solidfied accumulations of terrestrial vapours and probably > created by lightning strokes,wouldn't we? > >> > >> Best! > >> Martin > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From epgrondine at yahoo.com Fri Nov 20 11:37:04 2009 From: epgrondine at yahoo.com (E.P. Grondine) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 08:37:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] YD impact, again Message-ID: <404617.98653.qm@web36906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Darren - Thanks. We'll see "If the dates hold". The lead author in this is setting the impacts around 10,500 BCE, instead of 10,900 BCE. I really love it where the reporters summarize Firestone et al's "hypothesis" as an asteroid impact, instead of comet impact. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas From prairiecactus at rtcol.com Fri Nov 20 11:34:57 2009 From: prairiecactus at rtcol.com (Phil Whitmer) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:34:57 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not; Buchwald Diagram Message-ID: <45A0781D2163475D98C9AD1D44CC97DB@whitmerjbqtim1> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Whitmer" To: Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 8:29 PM Subject: Fusion Crust on Irons--Not; Buchwald Diagram > According to Buchwald: > > http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z126/tboswell/b-1.jpg?t=1258679726 > http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z126/tboswell/c-1.jpg?t=1258679835 > http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z126/tboswell/a-1.jpg?t=1258679999 > Interesting historical perspective. > > > > Phil Whitmer From prairiecactus at rtcol.com Fri Nov 20 11:33:22 2009 From: prairiecactus at rtcol.com (Phil Whitmer) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:33:22 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on Irons--Not; Buchwald Diagram Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Whitmer" To: Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 8:29 PM Subject: Fusion Crust on Irons--Not; Buchwald Diagram > According to Buchwald: > > http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z126/tboswell/b-1.jpg?t=1258679726 > http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z126/tboswell/c-1.jpg?t=1258679835 > http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z126/tboswell/a-1.jpg?t=1258679999 > > Interesting historical perspective. > > > > > Phil Whitmer From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Fri Nov 20 11:56:36 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 08:56:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] New Hope for Plucky Japanese Asteroid Mission (Hayabusa) Message-ID: <200911201656.nAKGuang010906@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0911/19hayabusa/ New hope for plucky Japanese asteroid mission BY STEPHEN CLARK SPACEFLIGHT NOW November 19, 2009 Japanese engineers have devised a plan to combine parts from two partially-failed ion engines to resume the Hayabusa asteroid probe's journey back to Earth. In a press release Thursday, officials said they will use the neutralizer of Thruster A and the ion source of Thruster B to provide enough power to guide the 950-pound spacecraft home next June. Hayabusa launched in 2003 with four ion engines. Thruster A was shut down due to instability shortly after launch, while Thruster B was turned off after high voltage in its neutralization system. Thruster C was manually switched off after signs it might be damaged by high electrical currents, and Thruster D failed two weeks ago due to a voltage spike. The Nov. 4 glitch left Hayabusa without a propulsion system and put its scheduled return to Earth in serious doubt. But the new plan gives Japanese officials new hope. "While the operation still needs monitored carefully, the project team has concluded the spacecraft can maintain the current return cruise schedule back to the Earth around June of 2010, if the new engines configuration continues to work as planned," the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency said in a statement. Hayabusa's four experimental microwave discharge ion engines consume xenon gas and expel the ionized propellant at high speeds to produce thrust. Ion engines are more efficient than conventional chemical thrusters because they use less fuel and can operate continuously for thousands of hours. The craft's thrusters have accumulated almost 40,000 hours of burn time since the probe launched. Plans call for the spacecraft to continue thrusting until March, when it will shut down the ion system and coast toward Earth for a parachuted landing in Australia. Hayabusa spent three months exploring asteroid Itokawa in late 2005. The probe took 1,600 pictures and collected about 120,000 pieces of near-infrared spectral data and 15,000 data points with its X-ray spectrometer to investigate the small potato-shaped asteroid's surface composition. The spacecraft approached Itokawa several times, attempting to fire a pellet into the asteroid's surface and retrieve rock samples through a funnel leading to a collection chamber. During a failed sampling attempt in November 2005, Hayabusa made an unplanned landing and spent up to a half-hour on Itokawa, becoming the first spacecraft to take off from an asteroid. Although telemetry showed Hayabusa likely did not fire its projectile while on the surface, scientists were hopeful bits of dust or pebbles found their way through the funnel and into the sample retrieval system. Hayabusa was later stymied by a fuel leak and ground controllers temporarily lost communications with the spacecraft, which is about the size of an average refrigerator. Controllers labored to overcome the issues, which were compounded by the loss of two orientation-controlling reaction wheels and power cells in an electrical battery. The craft's departure from Itokawa was delayed a year because of the problems, postponing its return to Earth from 2007 until 2010. From almitt at kconline.com Fri Nov 20 11:59:38 2009 From: almitt at kconline.com (al mitt) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:59:38 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ablation Zone 5 Layers...Not In-Reply-To: <730569.7558.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <730569.7558.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <65E0BA72D5444D288B0FD505E0B70954@StarmanPC> Hi Elton, You've brought up some very good discussion on the definition of fusion crusted specimens. I went to the authority, Buchwald's Iron Meteorites to see what he called it. He has written a lot about it. He states: "Cuts perpendicular to the surface of a freshly fallen iron meteorite disclose fusion crusts and heat affected rim zones. While the fusion crusts on stone meteorites are usually a product of simple melting, the crusts on iron meteorites are complex. The fusion crusts are the adhering remnants of ablated metal from the last part of the trajectory left on the surface when the velocity decreased below about 3 km/sec., and ablation ceased. The fusion crusts are, in principle, composed of an exterior fully oxidized, rapidly solidified nonmetallic melt." He shows a number of samples that are iron meteorites with various fusion crusts and identifies them that way. In some cases thick metallic fusion crust to describe flows and so forth. While I think there is some agreement with what Buchwald said and your trying to say, he still calls it fusion crust. Not to say that it is a term that is accurately describing a scientific effect on the outside of iron specimens. I have always felt and called some of my fresh iron falls fusion crusted because that is what Buchwald has defined them as in his books and feel it is a fair term to use unless a better term is identified and used by the scientific community that would label it different. I do know as you have pointed out that the term is often exaggerated way beyond the term that accurately defines it in Buchwald's Books and certainly abused by some seller of meteorites. Perhaps with this discussion, the overuse of the term on irons will be more carefully applied. All my best! --AL Mitterling Mitterling Meteorites ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEM" To: "Meteorite-list" ; "Jason Utas" Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 9:01 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ablation Zone 5 Layers...Not Dear Jason If everything is a part of the fusion crust than every meteorite is fusion crusted end of discussion. So are you really saying that every meteorite regardless of how condition has fusion crust even if all the extra trans-located material is missing? I don't have the luxury of going point by point as you have but apparently you are unfamiliar with the Oxford and Cambridge dictionary definitions as well as all their Dictionaries of Geology. Most of the literature and practically all of the referenced websites use the silicate glassy/glassy term in defining fusion crust--and in context they are most always speaking of stoney meteorites. We've been down this discussion before and while I respect Buchwald's observations: he is an industrial metallurgist and had no training I can see in mineralogy nor geology. He became a iron meteorite subject matter expert in his own right( I don't know that he ever did any work on any other type. I see no incentive on his part to reevaluate the surface changes as he was focused on cataloging the interior features. Somehow I don't think "crust" was an issue for him and in the absence of inquiry into the use of the term there was never a need to rethink it. He has an email address--write him and ask him what he meant. Nininiger was a biology teacher and while another legitimate self-made expert in the field it wasn't technically oriented until late in his career. This shouldn't be taken as disrespectful and doesn't mean that everything he assumed was gospel-- especially given the state of scientific tools in his lifetime. He laid the foundation for meteoritical study but that doesn't mean he knew all there was to know about meteorites. His book about meteorite surface features was mainly a photo documentation with little analysis and generally lacking in comparative studies of the crust. Much of this argument that they are "the experts" and as such are infallible, is misguided and out of context, as the tools available now are vastly more quantitative than tools of their day. So is our body of knowledge more complete than during their careers. ( I am calling the ablation surface below any "crust" feature because well...it is. The ablation surface is the last level we can ascertain the fusion has occurred. When the crust is worn away the ablation surface is revealed. I am also not calling the oxide coating a "fusion crust" because,... well...it isn't ( necessarily) fused material and represents either condensation or contact metamorphism of the final flight air soaked, modified surface. I am also not calling the surface of SA's which show aero-thermo-dynamic interaction that form the troughs "crust" because partial melting/softening/gas jet ablation does not meet the definition of fusion/fusing. How you see it as fusion crust illustrates my point that we call everything fusion crust when it is not even fused material. I think it deserves a more objective review and understanding of the complexities and not reduced to a universal simplicity. As to my point about extensively rusted/shalely Canyon Diablos being said to have "fusion crust", sounds like we are in violent agreement. The point of addressing the loss of the coating over time was to suggest further inquiry into what the actual chemical composition was and to indicate I felt it was a class of mineral/compounds which were unstable in an oxygen rich atmosphere. Again --some irons have apparent classical fusion crust but, I have to disagree that all irons have fusion crust--that is why ablation surface is an important distinction and is better nomenclature that serves as a starting point for discussing all meteorite surfaces and where crust begins and ends. I believe when and where it is found it needs as much analytical scrutiny as we spend on the interior so we know its source material and how it came to be crust. Rather than me reiterate what I've already addressed perhaps you would like to read it more collaboratively as some of what you replied to skipped over where there is agreement and also you've challenged the studies about how deeply thermal alteration occurs in different meteorites. I am not ready to roll over on the claim that a chemically bonded oxide constitutes fusion crust unless you want to drop the word fusion. I proposed some terms for use in defining a meteorite's surface more descriptively. Other than disagree out of principle, you didn't give a counter argument as to why the model I laid out was in error. Finally I will reiterate the problems with trying to have a reasonable succinct discussion when out of context examples are introduced as if they were the rule rather than the exception they are. Elton From almitt at kconline.com Fri Nov 20 11:45:20 2009 From: almitt at kconline.com (al mitt) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:45:20 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ablation Zone 5 Layers...Not In-Reply-To: <730569.7558.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <730569.7558.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Elton, You've brought up some very good discussion on the definition of fusion crusted specimens. I went to the authority, Buchwald's Iron Meteorites to see what he called it. He has written a lot about it. He states: "Cuts perpendicular to the surface of a freshly fallen iron meteorite disclose fusion crusts and heat affected rim zones. While the fusion crusts on stone meteorites are usually a product of simple melting, the crusts on iron meteorites are complex. The fusion crusts are the adhering remnants of ablated metal from the last part of the trajectory left on the surface when the velocity decreased below about 3 km/sec., and ablation ceased. The fusion crusts are, in principle, composed of an exterior fully oxidized, rapidly solidified nonmetallic melt." He shows a number of samples that are iron meteorites with various fusion crusts and identifies them that way. In some cases thick metallic fusion crust to describe flows and so forth. While I think there is some agreement with what Buchwald said and your trying to say, he still calls it fusion crust. Not to say that it is a term that is accurately describing a scientific effect on the outside of iron specimens. I have always felt and called some of my fresh iron falls fusion crusted because that is what Buchwald has defined them as in his books and feel it is a fair term to use unless a better term is identified and used by the scientific community that would label it different. I do know as you have pointed out that the term is often exaggerated way beyond the term that accurately defines it in Buchwald's Books and certainly abused by some seller of meteorites. Perhaps with this discussion, the overuse of the term on irons will be more carefully applied. All my best! --AL Mitterling Mitterling Meteorites ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEM" To: "Meteorite-list" ; "Jason Utas" Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 9:01 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ablation Zone 5 Layers...Not Dear Jason If everything is a part of the fusion crust than every meteorite is fusion crusted end of discussion. So are you really saying that every meteorite regardless of how condition has fusion crust even if all the extra trans-located material is missing? I don't have the luxury of going point by point as you have but apparently you are unfamiliar with the Oxford and Cambridge dictionary definitions as well as all their Dictionaries of Geology. Most of the literature and practically all of the referenced websites use the silicate glassy/glassy term in defining fusion crust--and in context they are most always speaking of stoney meteorites. We've been down this discussion before and while I respect Buchwald's observations: he is an industrial metallurgist and had no training I can see in mineralogy nor geology. He became a iron meteorite subject matter expert in his own right( I don't know that he ever did any work on any other type. I see no incentive on his part to reevaluate the surface changes as he was focused on cataloging the interior features. Somehow I don't think "crust" was an issue for him and in the absence of inquiry into the use of the term there was never a need to rethink it. He has an email address--write him and ask him what he meant. Nininiger was a biology teacher and while another legitimate self-made expert in the field it wasn't technically oriented until late in his career. This shouldn't be taken as disrespectful and doesn't mean that everything he assumed was gospel-- especially given the state of scientific tools in his lifetime. He laid the foundation for meteoritical study but that doesn't mean he knew all there was to know about meteorites. His book about meteorite surface features was mainly a photo documentation with little analysis and generally lacking in comparative studies of the crust. Much of this argument that they are "the experts" and as such are infallible, is misguided and out of context, as the tools available now are vastly more quantitative than tools of their day. So is our body of knowledge more complete than during their careers. ( I am calling the ablation surface below any "crust" feature because well...it is. The ablation surface is the last level we can ascertain the fusion has occurred. When the crust is worn away the ablation surface is revealed. I am also not calling the oxide coating a "fusion crust" because,... well...it isn't ( necessarily) fused material and represents either condensation or contact metamorphism of the final flight air soaked, modified surface. I am also not calling the surface of SA's which show aero-thermo-dynamic interaction that form the troughs "crust" because partial melting/softening/gas jet ablation does not meet the definition of fusion/fusing. How you see it as fusion crust illustrates my point that we call everything fusion crust when it is not even fused material. I think it deserves a more objective review and understanding of the complexities and not reduced to a universal simplicity. As to my point about extensively rusted/shalely Canyon Diablos being said to have "fusion crust", sounds like we are in violent agreement. The point of addressing the loss of the coating over time was to suggest further inquiry into what the actual chemical composition was and to indicate I felt it was a class of mineral/compounds which were unstable in an oxygen rich atmosphere. Again --some irons have apparent classical fusion crust but, I have to disagree that all irons have fusion crust--that is why ablation surface is an important distinction and is better nomenclature that serves as a starting point for discussing all meteorite surfaces and where crust begins and ends. I believe when and where it is found it needs as much analytical scrutiny as we spend on the interior so we know its source material and how it came to be crust. Rather than me reiterate what I've already addressed perhaps you would like to read it more collaboratively as some of what you replied to skipped over where there is agreement and also you've challenged the studies about how deeply thermal alteration occurs in different meteorites. I am not ready to roll over on the claim that a chemically bonded oxide constitutes fusion crust unless you want to drop the word fusion. I proposed some terms for use in defining a meteorite's surface more descriptively. Other than disagree out of principle, you didn't give a counter argument as to why the model I laid out was in error. Finally I will reiterate the problems with trying to have a reasonable succinct discussion when out of context examples are introduced as if they were the rule rather than the exception they are. Elton --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Jason Utas wrote: > From: Jason Utas > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ablation Zone 5 Layers...Not > To: "Meteorite-list" > Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 6:58 AM > Hello Elton, All, > I'm going to go through this bit by bit to do it > justice... > > > > Yes on a freshly recovered iron, there appears to be a > "film" of what we believe is "magnetite-like oxide/nitride > micro-crystals, probably including some sulfide and > phosphide minerals" which form through interaction with hot > atmospheric plasma. Even though some of it is magnetic, > some of it is easily dislodged with a wipe of the finger. > > > I assume this coating is relatable to the iridescent film > which often coats stony meteorites - the film that often disappears > within days of a fall. > > >I surmise that this rapidly goes to hematite or > limonite but I've not thought through the chemistry and I > suspect a valence discrepancy that makes this type meteoric > "magnetite" unstable. The mineral assemblage in the > coating/film is a result of passage through the atmosphere > and not per se the resulting changes that occur with the > passage of time on the surface. > > > I shall point you toward this photograph of the external > surface of a Sikhote-Alin. This iron was found ~50+ years after > falling and still retained its exterior surface. The features you see > are not made of melted Fe, but of an outer coating of iron oxide which > formed during atmospheric descent. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/2335664239/sizes/l/ > > > > I think I can proffer an argument for what is and is > not a scientifically underpinned definition of "crust" but > I'll work on that later. For the time being the use of > "crust" by present definition involves glass and last time I > checked there is no such thing as "iron glass". > > > Where did you get this definition? Why is it more > valid than the one > accepted by Buchwald, Nininger, Krinov, and the folks at > the USNM? > Why does fusion crust *have* to have glass in it? > Honestly, this > whole thing seems like a semantics battle on your part. > > > >We expect to find something analogous to "crust" so we > call what we see "crust"-- I understand that. But when we > stray too far everything including dust mites, rust and, > fungus gets called fusion crust. > > > Right. > Here: > > http://www.aerolite.org/catalogue/sikhote-alin-aaa-33-2.htm > > What you're looking at is the original external surface of > the iron, made of that FeO layer that you keep insisting isn't fusion > crust.It's perfectly analogous to the crust of stony meteorites, > except, of course, in that it contains no glass. > > > > As there is also a surface bluing occasionally > observed (much like after welding) this may be a directly > formed oxide/nitride layer of chemically altered meteorite > while emerging from the incandescent phase of flight but > since I am unsure of the composition I'll leave it out of > the below discussion. > > > I've seen that on stony meteorites as well. But since > you're leaving it out, there's no real need to address it. > > > > Chances are it is also quickly lost to weathering on > the surface--even in the museum drawer. > > > Maybe. I saw some pretty Oum Dreyga's with such a > film still present as of this winter - in a drawer in Alain Carion's shop > in Paris. As such, I have the feeling that such layers may not simply > sublimate with time, but they do seem to disappear rather rapidly > when meteorites are left in the field. > > > >The bottom line here is: we have to accept the > probability of an ever-evolving surface on our meteorites. > Some happen quickly and may be gone in a flash and some oh > so slowly. This should not deter us however from discussing > the basis for each step that comes and goes. > > > This also has nothing to do with our argument, for the most > part. I don't think there's anyone here who denies such a fact, so > stating it is somewhat superfluous. > > > I believe to discuss meteorite surface features e.g > crust, non crust, flow lines, ripples, regmaglypts, pits, > bubbles, and all the variations, we should come to a working > definition in general principle of what to call them so we > know we are discussing the same thing. > > > Sounds good to me. > > > > Part of that is acceptance that there is an > "ablation/ablated zone" generally 2-6mm from the physical > surface where the meteoroid last interacted with the heat of > reentry. This zone my eventually be proved a new type of > "rind", geologically speaking. > > > Unfortunately, it's hard to gauge whether or not such a > feature truly > exists on stony meteorites because, due to their decreased > conductivity, this heating does not occur over distances > quite so large. > > See page two. > > http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1982Metic..17...27R > > So there's kind of an "ablationary rind," but it really > only exists to the extent that you just noted in iron meteorites... > > Of the layers physically present, I see two > branches/variations which we may reintegrate but for ease of > discussion the first is mostly the non-silicate bearing iron > branch of "layers": > > So we *are* talking about irons' fusion crusts...ok... > > > The ablated/ablation zone includes amongst it layers: > > > 1)Lost Layer/ Null layer: The material which is > missing, includes ALL the material which is no longer there > which we may conclude was lost from its pre-entry form due > to atmospheric interaction. It may be marginal but may be > needed to discuss surface depth in relation to cosmic ray > tracks 14C concentrations, etc. > > O...k....the stuff that's no longer there. A wordy > description, but > sure. Call it what you will. > > > 2) Oxide Film or Coating: There is a layer of > non-physically/non-chemically, bonded oxide film which is > not persistent, subject to rapid erosion/weathering, > abrasion etc. This represents a condensation coating which > is applied after ablation stops. (See bluing discussion > also) > > Such a coating forms on irons and stones alike, though - > iridescent films have been reported on many freshly fallen meteorites, > regardless of type. > > > 2a) This is where fusion crust might be found if there > were normally crystalline molecules that melted and quickly > quenched leaving an anamorphic solid. But what we know as > true fusion crust is more complicated than that and is > largely governed by the composition of the meteoroid. > > You breeze over it so nicely, without addressing the > issue. Hum. Well, again, I don't know why you insist on the glassy > nature of a fusion crust: I really can't fight your definition of it, > because it simply doesn't make any sense. There's no reason to > draw the line there, and I can't think of a single reason why fusion > crust should *have to* contain glass. Knowing meteorites, I would > define the fusion crust as the layer of meteoric material transformed > into melt during a meteorite's ablative stages of flight, which later > solidifies into a solid coating of material on the surface of the > stone, iron, what have you. I see no reason to insist on glass - I > agree that making a distinction between the properties of stones' > versus irons' fusion crusts and their structures might well be a > worthwhile endeavor, but insisting on calling the crust that forms on > irons 'not a fusion crust' seems a pointless task. > > > 3)Flow/ Thermodynamic Features: > > > 3a)There may be a layer of flow streams/esker-like > inverted stream channels where molten material, which > escaped evaporation and,, was displaced from one spot to > another where it may have been redeposited. Regardless it > is an artifact of reentry and we may also include it in the > subset of features we refer to as "flight markings" This is > a gray area also because this is more akin to a surface > feature than a true layer but I throw it out on the table > for discussion. There will be occasional features which > represent movement of material over top of a previously > ablated surface and time and consensus will determine if it > merits a layer designation. > > I disagree; such structures are merely features of the > aforementioned fusion crust layer, and should be deemed synonymous with > said layer. > They are, after all, composed of the same materials, and > one is not > below or above the other layer; you're talking about the > same stuff > here. > These features are made of the fusion crust noted above, so > calling > them a distinct layer seems pointless. > You're not even arguing the difference between icing and > frosting. > You're arguing a difference between frosting and thick > frosting. It > just doesn't make sense. > > > 3b)There is also the occasional surface feature (semi > flow) (which may or may not be a layer) of plastically > deformed "ripple-marks" which give a satiny, wavy, micro > "ridge and valley" pattern not unlike the depth and texture > of fingerprints (NOTE this is not the same as "thumb-print" > regmyglipts) Not all irons have this very thin layer. These > ripple marks appear to form via fluid dynamics. I surmise > (but have yet to prove) these are ripple marks of a > extremely short-lived state where semi-molten metal is > plastic enough to deform along lines where superheated gas > eroding gas passing in both laminar and turbulent flow over > the continuously evolving surface of the meteoroid. It > leaves, a row and furrow/valley and ridge/ripple-like > marking, submilimeter in depth. This results in that "less > than glossy","satin-like" sheen seen on some > meteorites--This is legitimate flight marking and therefore > may actually be a surface feature and not a true layer but, > a > > variation on the ablation surface. I am leaning > toward this being a surface feature vs an independent > layer. > > See the specimen in my flickr stream pictured above. > This "layer," as > the one before it, is synonymous with fusion crust. > > > 4)Ablation surface: It is included to distinguish from > the newly fallen surface any weathered/flaking/rusting > surface all too frequently mistakenly called "fusion crust" > on Canyon Diablos, Natans etc. Crust if present sits atop > the ablation surface as it represents incorporated > atmospheric gasses and possible re-deposition of Physically > and chemically altered material from another location on the > meteoroid, etc. Surface features can be in the ablation > surface or above it depending on their origins. The ablation > surface is a distinct demarkation between what was removed > and what remained even if subsequently it bubbled into > fusion crust or represents a redeposition of condensate from > this ablative/ heating/ shearing process--which also needs a > generic but descriptive name! > > False. Completely and utterly incorrect. > You're talking about the surface of the iron meteorite > itself, below > the fusion crust. > How on earth can you put this "layer" between the fusion > crust and the > reheated rim when many Canyon Diablos and Nantans have seen > so much > weathering so as to lose any trace of their original > reheated rims!? > The only irons I have *ever* seen to possess such a surface > are desert > irons, where the crust has been stripped from the fresh > metal, > allowing for a thin coating of desert varnish on the > exposed iron (any > substantial oxidation would destroy this "layer"), and on > antarctic > irons, where a similar process often occurs. > Canyon Diablo and Nantan are examples of irons where the > crust has > been removed - along with countless mm or cm of > material. This > "layer," as you define it, does *not* exist on such irons. > > Oh - Sikhotes sometimes exhibit such a surface as > weathering has > removed patches of fusion crust while leaving the surface > of the iron > relatively unaltered. It's a good thing they're so > fresh or this > wouldn't be true... > > > 5)TAZ: Thermally Altered Zone: in this zone is the > material which was not displaced nor reformed, per se-- but > was thermally altered to a major or minor degree. Some > volatile gases my have been out gassed but a major effect > would be resetting magnetic orientation within the zone. > There are means to analyze how deeply and to what range of > elevated temperatures this zone was subjected to. > > Well, the major effect generally noted is the > recrystallization of the > meteoric material, but sure - this is a legitimate > "layer." > > > 6) All the remaining material largely unaffected by > the change in address from solar orbit to our collections. A > place holder for the time being but all that which is not a > part of the ablation zone. > > I'll leave it there for tonight and for a straw man > suggest there are 5 layers(on irons at least) in the > "Ablation Zone". These layers are thick or thin; regions of > original material which were in someway altered /affected by > the dynamics of passage through the atmosphere. > > Right, well...you have my point of view. It's based > on the fact that > the fusion crusts on iron meteorites and on stony > meteorites form > through the same general processes into analogous > structures and > function in the same way on both types of meteorites. > Your insisting > on glass being a component of fusion crust seems as likely > to be > present due to a misinterpretation of some archaic article, > as best I > can tell, so I really don't know what to say. You > keep stating the a > fusion crust must contain glass 'because it is defined that > way,' but > when I stand back and ask the obvious question - 'why is it > defined as > such, and does that make sense,' all I get in response is > a > reiteration of your conviction that fusion crust is defined > as such, > and the definition cannot be changed. > > Science is change, Elton. > > The trouble with this point, though, is that you've taken > up the > conservative mantle of "no change" when I cannot find a > single > reference anywhere that states that fusion crust *must* > contain glass. > All of the literature from NIninger to Buchwald, to > Krinov, to > modern-day descriptions of meteorites entering the USNM > from > Antarctica - they all state that irons have fusion crusts. > > In other words, you're saying the definition shouldn't be > changed from > one in which glass is an indisputable component of fusion > crust when > that's not stated anywhere in the first place. > You can't advocate *maintaining* a definition when it's > *never* been > accepted as fact, because that's not how definitions > work. It needs > to be accepted before you can try to "keep it > accepted." Otherwise > you're just advocating a new theory based on the historical > merit of > the theory - which, if it has never been accepted in the > first place, > is simply circular reasoning. > > You're the one advocating a backwards sort of change, > Elton. We're > going along with accepted meteoritics. And unless you > have a reason > to say that glass is an inherent component of what we are > to deem > fusion crust, I suggest that you come up with a better > reason than > "it's defined that way," because it's getting old. > > Regards, > Jason > > > --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Martin Altmann > wrote: > > > >> From: Martin Altmann > >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on > Irons--Not > >> To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 7:21 AM > >> Unlike in politics and public opinion > >> (and sometimes in science), > >> in meteoritics it sometimes can be more difficult > to adhere to > >> theories/legends,if one gets samples in ones very > hands, which exhibit the opposite of that, the theory > postulates. > >> > >> If you ever had an early picked Sikhote at hand, > >> or if you had taken from Andi Gren's Boguslavka > slices > >> (a fall, who simply hadn't enough time in field, > to develop > >> a magnetite, wuestite, limonite or whatever -ite > weathering crust), > >> you would be very surprised. > >> > >> Cause they don't display that ominous blue-ish > flimsy > >> luster, which is often reported as fusion crust, > but a thick and fat layer of a discernibly different matter > than the material beneath, of a dark color and rough to > silky surface. > >> > >> I never believed in iron fusion crusts neither, > but when I > >> got in these freshly picked up observed falls, I > was disabused. > >> > >> Main problem in that question is, as it was > correctly > >> mentioned here, that we simply have so few > pristine samples of fresh iron falls and that most irons we > get in our collections arrive with weathered or artificially > cleaned surfaces. > >> > >> Now you may argue about the word "crust" as a > >> (pseudo-)scientific term...well for me scientific > terms are best, when they keep most of their meaning they > have in their common use in the language. And there crust - > meant for me a layer on the outside of an object. > > > >> .....and we have the problem, that there exist > these > >> freshly fallen lumps with that strange crust. > Shall we hide them in the deepest corner of our drawers, > cause they don't fit in the axiom, that fusion crusts are > fusion crusts only, when silicates are melting? > >> > >> Sometimes, if the results don't fit into a theory, > one has > >> to think about modifying the theory, > >> > >> Else there wouldn't be no meteorites in our sense > at all, > >> Nada, Niente, Nix, Nimic, cause we all would know > that they are products of our Aristotelian atmosphere, > solidfied accumulations of terrestrial vapours and probably > created by lightning strokes,wouldn't we? > >> > >> Best! > >> Martin > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Fri Nov 20 12:37:20 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:37:20 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ablation Zone 5 Layers...Not In-Reply-To: References: <730569.7558.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: List: I think this one looks cool. http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/amn/AMNAug04/MIL03369.htm Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > From: almitt at kconline.com > To: mstreman53 at yahoo.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; meteoritekid at gmail.com > Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:45:20 -0500 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ablation Zone 5 Layers...Not > > Hi Elton, > > You've brought up some very good discussion on the definition of fusion > crusted specimens. I went to the authority, Buchwald's Iron Meteorites to > see what he called it. He has written a lot about it. He states: "Cuts > perpendicular to the surface of a freshly fallen iron meteorite disclose > fusion crusts and heat affected rim zones. While the fusion crusts on stone > meteorites are usually a product of simple melting, the crusts on iron > meteorites are complex. The fusion crusts are the adhering remnants of > ablated metal from the last part of the trajectory left on the surface when > the velocity decreased below about 3 km/sec., and ablation ceased. The > fusion crusts are, in principle, composed of an exterior fully oxidized, > rapidly solidified nonmetallic melt." > > He shows a number of samples that are iron meteorites with various fusion > crusts and identifies them that way. In some cases thick metallic fusion > crust to describe flows and so forth. While I think there is some agreement > with what Buchwald said and your trying to say, he still calls it fusion > crust. Not to say that it is a term that is accurately describing a > scientific effect on the outside of iron specimens. > > I have always felt and called some of my fresh iron falls fusion crusted > because that is what Buchwald has defined them as in his books and feel it > is a fair term to use unless a better term is identified and used by the > scientific community that would label it different. I do know as you have > pointed out that the term is often exaggerated way beyond the term that > accurately defines it in Buchwald's Books and certainly abused by some > seller of meteorites. Perhaps with this discussion, the overuse of the term > on irons will be more carefully applied. All my best! > > --AL Mitterling > > Mitterling Meteorites > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "MEM" > To: "Meteorite-list" ; "Jason Utas" > > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 9:01 AM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ablation Zone 5 Layers...Not > > > Dear Jason If everything is a part of the fusion crust than every meteorite > is fusion crusted end of discussion. So are you really saying that every > meteorite regardless of how condition has fusion crust even if all the extra > trans-located material is missing? > > I don't have the luxury of going point by point as you have but apparently > you are unfamiliar with the Oxford and Cambridge dictionary definitions as > well as all their Dictionaries of Geology. Most of the literature and > practically all of the referenced websites use the silicate glassy/glassy > term in defining fusion crust--and in context they are most always speaking > of stoney meteorites. > > We've been down this discussion before and while I respect Buchwald's > observations: he is an industrial metallurgist and had no training I can > see in mineralogy nor geology. He became a iron meteorite subject matter > expert in his own right( I don't know that he ever did any work on any other > type. I see no incentive on his part to reevaluate the surface changes as he > was focused on cataloging the interior features. Somehow I don't think > "crust" was an issue for him and in the absence of inquiry into the use of > the term there was never a need to rethink it. He has an email > address--write him and ask him what he meant. > > Nininiger was a biology teacher and while another legitimate self-made > expert in the field it wasn't technically oriented until late in his career. > This shouldn't be taken as disrespectful and doesn't mean that everything he > assumed was gospel-- especially given the state of scientific tools in his > lifetime. He laid the foundation for meteoritical study but that doesn't > mean he knew all there was to know about meteorites. His book about > meteorite surface features was mainly a photo documentation with little > analysis and generally lacking in comparative studies of the crust. > > Much of this argument that they are "the experts" and as such are > infallible, is misguided and out of context, as the tools available now are > vastly more quantitative than tools of their day. So is our body of > knowledge more complete than during their careers. ( > > I am calling the ablation surface below any "crust" feature because > well...it is. The ablation surface is the last level we can ascertain the > fusion has occurred. When the crust is worn away the ablation surface is > revealed. I am also not calling the oxide coating a "fusion crust" > because,... well...it isn't ( necessarily) fused material and represents > either condensation or contact metamorphism of the final flight air soaked, > modified surface. I am also not calling the surface of SA's which show > aero-thermo-dynamic interaction that form the troughs "crust" because > partial melting/softening/gas jet ablation does not meet the definition of > fusion/fusing. How you see it as fusion crust illustrates my point that we > call everything fusion crust when it is not even fused material. I think it > deserves a more objective review and understanding of the complexities and > not reduced to a universal simplicity. As to my point about extensively > rusted/shalely Canyon > Diablos being said to have "fusion crust", sounds like we are in violent > agreement. > > The point of addressing the loss of the coating over time was to suggest > further inquiry into what the actual chemical composition was and to > indicate I felt it was a class of mineral/compounds which were unstable in > an oxygen rich atmosphere. > > Again --some irons have apparent classical fusion crust but, I have to > disagree that all irons have fusion crust--that is why ablation surface is > an important distinction and is better nomenclature that serves as a > starting point for discussing all meteorite surfaces and where crust begins > and ends. I believe when and where it is found it needs as much analytical > scrutiny as we spend on the interior so we know its source material and how > it came to be crust. > > Rather than me reiterate what I've already addressed perhaps you would like > to read it more collaboratively as some of what you replied to skipped over > where there is agreement and also you've challenged the studies about how > deeply thermal alteration occurs in different meteorites. > > I am not ready to roll over on the claim that a chemically bonded oxide > constitutes fusion crust unless you want to drop the word fusion. I > proposed some terms for use in defining a meteorite's surface more > descriptively. Other than disagree out of principle, you didn't give a > counter argument as to why the model I laid out was in error. > > Finally I will reiterate the problems with trying to have a reasonable > succinct discussion when out of context examples are introduced as if they > were the rule rather than the exception they are. > > Elton > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Jason Utas wrote: > >> From: Jason Utas >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ablation Zone 5 Layers...Not >> To: "Meteorite-list" >> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 6:58 AM >> Hello Elton, All, >> I'm going to go through this bit by bit to do it >> justice... >> >> >>> Yes on a freshly recovered iron, there appears to be a >> "film" of what we believe is "magnetite-like oxide/nitride >> micro-crystals, probably including some sulfide and >> phosphide minerals" which form through interaction with hot >> atmospheric plasma. Even though some of it is magnetic, >> some of it is easily dislodged with a wipe of the finger. >> >> >> I assume this coating is relatable to the iridescent film >> which often coats stony meteorites - the film that often disappears >> within days of a fall. >> >>>I surmise that this rapidly goes to hematite or >> limonite but I've not thought through the chemistry and I >> suspect a valence discrepancy that makes this type meteoric >> "magnetite" unstable. The mineral assemblage in the >> coating/film is a result of passage through the atmosphere >> and not per se the resulting changes that occur with the >> passage of time on the surface. >> >> >> I shall point you toward this photograph of the external >> surface of a Sikhote-Alin. This iron was found ~50+ years after >> falling and still retained its exterior surface. The features you see >> are not made of melted Fe, but of an outer coating of iron oxide which >> formed during atmospheric descent. >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cameteoritefinder/2335664239/sizes/l/ >> >> >>> I think I can proffer an argument for what is and is >> not a scientifically underpinned definition of "crust" but >> I'll work on that later. For the time being the use of >> "crust" by present definition involves glass and last time I >> checked there is no such thing as "iron glass". >> >> >> Where did you get this definition? Why is it more >> valid than the one >> accepted by Buchwald, Nininger, Krinov, and the folks at >> the USNM? >> Why does fusion crust *have* to have glass in it? >> Honestly, this >> whole thing seems like a semantics battle on your part. >> >> >>>We expect to find something analogous to "crust" so we >> call what we see "crust"-- I understand that. But when we >> stray too far everything including dust mites, rust and, >> fungus gets called fusion crust. >> >> >> Right. >> Here: >> >> http://www.aerolite.org/catalogue/sikhote-alin-aaa-33-2.htm >> >> What you're looking at is the original external surface of >> the iron, made of that FeO layer that you keep insisting isn't fusion >> crust.It's perfectly analogous to the crust of stony meteorites, >> except, of course, in that it contains no glass. >> >> >>> As there is also a surface bluing occasionally >> observed (much like after welding) this may be a directly >> formed oxide/nitride layer of chemically altered meteorite >> while emerging from the incandescent phase of flight but >> since I am unsure of the composition I'll leave it out of >> the below discussion. >> >> >> I've seen that on stony meteorites as well. But since >> you're leaving it out, there's no real need to address it. >> >> >>> Chances are it is also quickly lost to weathering on >> the surface--even in the museum drawer. >> >> >> Maybe. I saw some pretty Oum Dreyga's with such a >> film still present as of this winter - in a drawer in Alain Carion's shop >> in Paris. As such, I have the feeling that such layers may not simply >> sublimate with time, but they do seem to disappear rather rapidly >> when meteorites are left in the field. >> >> >>>The bottom line here is: we have to accept the >> probability of an ever-evolving surface on our meteorites. >> Some happen quickly and may be gone in a flash and some oh >> so slowly. This should not deter us however from discussing >> the basis for each step that comes and goes. >> >> >> This also has nothing to do with our argument, for the most >> part. I don't think there's anyone here who denies such a fact, so >> stating it is somewhat superfluous. >> >>> I believe to discuss meteorite surface features e.g >> crust, non crust, flow lines, ripples, regmaglypts, pits, >> bubbles, and all the variations, we should come to a working >> definition in general principle of what to call them so we >> know we are discussing the same thing. >> >> >> Sounds good to me. >> >> >>> Part of that is acceptance that there is an >> "ablation/ablated zone" generally 2-6mm from the physical >> surface where the meteoroid last interacted with the heat of >> reentry. This zone my eventually be proved a new type of >> "rind", geologically speaking. >> >> >> Unfortunately, it's hard to gauge whether or not such a >> feature truly >> exists on stony meteorites because, due to their decreased >> conductivity, this heating does not occur over distances >> quite so large. >> >> See page two. >> >> http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1982Metic..17...27R >> >> So there's kind of an "ablationary rind," but it really >> only exists to the extent that you just noted in iron meteorites... >> >> Of the layers physically present, I see two >> branches/variations which we may reintegrate but for ease of >> discussion the first is mostly the non-silicate bearing iron >> branch of "layers": >> >> So we *are* talking about irons' fusion crusts...ok... >> >>> The ablated/ablation zone includes amongst it layers: >> >>> 1)Lost Layer/ Null layer: The material which is >> missing, includes ALL the material which is no longer there >> which we may conclude was lost from its pre-entry form due >> to atmospheric interaction. It may be marginal but may be >> needed to discuss surface depth in relation to cosmic ray >> tracks 14C concentrations, etc. >> >> O...k....the stuff that's no longer there. A wordy >> description, but >> sure. Call it what you will. >> >>> 2) Oxide Film or Coating: There is a layer of >> non-physically/non-chemically, bonded oxide film which is >> not persistent, subject to rapid erosion/weathering, >> abrasion etc. This represents a condensation coating which >> is applied after ablation stops. (See bluing discussion >> also) >> >> Such a coating forms on irons and stones alike, though - >> iridescent films have been reported on many freshly fallen meteorites, >> regardless of type. >> >>> 2a) This is where fusion crust might be found if there >> were normally crystalline molecules that melted and quickly >> quenched leaving an anamorphic solid. But what we know as >> true fusion crust is more complicated than that and is >> largely governed by the composition of the meteoroid. >> >> You breeze over it so nicely, without addressing the >> issue. Hum. Well, again, I don't know why you insist on the glassy >> nature of a fusion crust: I really can't fight your definition of it, >> because it simply doesn't make any sense. There's no reason to >> draw the line there, and I can't think of a single reason why fusion >> crust should *have to* contain glass. Knowing meteorites, I would >> define the fusion crust as the layer of meteoric material transformed >> into melt during a meteorite's ablative stages of flight, which later >> solidifies into a solid coating of material on the surface of the >> stone, iron, what have you. I see no reason to insist on glass - I >> agree that making a distinction between the properties of stones' >> versus irons' fusion crusts and their structures might well be a >> worthwhile endeavor, but insisting on calling the crust that forms on >> irons 'not a fusion crust' seems a pointless task. >> >>> 3)Flow/ Thermodynamic Features: >> >>> 3a)There may be a layer of flow streams/esker-like >> inverted stream channels where molten material, which >> escaped evaporation and,, was displaced from one spot to >> another where it may have been redeposited. Regardless it >> is an artifact of reentry and we may also include it in the >> subset of features we refer to as "flight markings" This is >> a gray area also because this is more akin to a surface >> feature than a true layer but I throw it out on the table >> for discussion. There will be occasional features which >> represent movement of material over top of a previously >> ablated surface and time and consensus will determine if it >> merits a layer designation. >> >> I disagree; such structures are merely features of the >> aforementioned fusion crust layer, and should be deemed synonymous with >> said layer. >> They are, after all, composed of the same materials, and >> one is not >> below or above the other layer; you're talking about the >> same stuff >> here. >> These features are made of the fusion crust noted above, so >> calling >> them a distinct layer seems pointless. >> You're not even arguing the difference between icing and >> frosting. >> You're arguing a difference between frosting and thick >> frosting. It >> just doesn't make sense. >> >>> 3b)There is also the occasional surface feature (semi >> flow) (which may or may not be a layer) of plastically >> deformed "ripple-marks" which give a satiny, wavy, micro >> "ridge and valley" pattern not unlike the depth and texture >> of fingerprints (NOTE this is not the same as "thumb-print" >> regmyglipts) Not all irons have this very thin layer. These >> ripple marks appear to form via fluid dynamics. I surmise >> (but have yet to prove) these are ripple marks of a >> extremely short-lived state where semi-molten metal is >> plastic enough to deform along lines where superheated gas >> eroding gas passing in both laminar and turbulent flow over >> the continuously evolving surface of the meteoroid. It >> leaves, a row and furrow/valley and ridge/ripple-like >> marking, submilimeter in depth. This results in that "less >> than glossy","satin-like" sheen seen on some >> meteorites--This is legitimate flight marking and therefore >> may actually be a surface feature and not a true layer but, >> a >>> variation on the ablation surface. I am leaning >> toward this being a surface feature vs an independent >> layer. >> >> See the specimen in my flickr stream pictured above. >> This "layer," as >> the one before it, is synonymous with fusion crust. >> >>> 4)Ablation surface: It is included to distinguish from >> the newly fallen surface any weathered/flaking/rusting >> surface all too frequently mistakenly called "fusion crust" >> on Canyon Diablos, Natans etc. Crust if present sits atop >> the ablation surface as it represents incorporated >> atmospheric gasses and possible re-deposition of Physically >> and chemically altered material from another location on the >> meteoroid, etc. Surface features can be in the ablation >> surface or above it depending on their origins. The ablation >> surface is a distinct demarkation between what was removed >> and what remained even if subsequently it bubbled into >> fusion crust or represents a redeposition of condensate from >> this ablative/ heating/ shearing process--which also needs a >> generic but descriptive name! >> >> False. Completely and utterly incorrect. >> You're talking about the surface of the iron meteorite >> itself, below >> the fusion crust. >> How on earth can you put this "layer" between the fusion >> crust and the >> reheated rim when many Canyon Diablos and Nantans have seen >> so much >> weathering so as to lose any trace of their original >> reheated rims!? >> The only irons I have *ever* seen to possess such a surface >> are desert >> irons, where the crust has been stripped from the fresh >> metal, >> allowing for a thin coating of desert varnish on the >> exposed iron (any >> substantial oxidation would destroy this "layer"), and on >> antarctic >> irons, where a similar process often occurs. >> Canyon Diablo and Nantan are examples of irons where the >> crust has >> been removed - along with countless mm or cm of >> material. This >> "layer," as you define it, does *not* exist on such irons. >> >> Oh - Sikhotes sometimes exhibit such a surface as >> weathering has >> removed patches of fusion crust while leaving the surface >> of the iron >> relatively unaltered. It's a good thing they're so >> fresh or this >> wouldn't be true... >> >>> 5)TAZ: Thermally Altered Zone: in this zone is the >> material which was not displaced nor reformed, per se-- but >> was thermally altered to a major or minor degree. Some >> volatile gases my have been out gassed but a major effect >> would be resetting magnetic orientation within the zone. >> There are means to analyze how deeply and to what range of >> elevated temperatures this zone was subjected to. >> >> Well, the major effect generally noted is the >> recrystallization of the >> meteoric material, but sure - this is a legitimate >> "layer." >> >>> 6) All the remaining material largely unaffected by >> the change in address from solar orbit to our collections. A >> place holder for the time being but all that which is not a >> part of the ablation zone. >>> I'll leave it there for tonight and for a straw man >> suggest there are 5 layers(on irons at least) in the >> "Ablation Zone". These layers are thick or thin; regions of >> original material which were in someway altered /affected by >> the dynamics of passage through the atmosphere. >> >> Right, well...you have my point of view. It's based >> on the fact that >> the fusion crusts on iron meteorites and on stony >> meteorites form >> through the same general processes into analogous >> structures and >> function in the same way on both types of meteorites. >> Your insisting >> on glass being a component of fusion crust seems as likely >> to be >> present due to a misinterpretation of some archaic article, >> as best I >> can tell, so I really don't know what to say. You >> keep stating the a >> fusion crust must contain glass 'because it is defined that >> way,' but >> when I stand back and ask the obvious question - 'why is it >> defined as >> such, and does that make sense,' all I get in response is >> a >> reiteration of your conviction that fusion crust is defined >> as such, >> and the definition cannot be changed. >> >> Science is change, Elton. >> >> The trouble with this point, though, is that you've taken >> up the >> conservative mantle of "no change" when I cannot find a >> single >> reference anywhere that states that fusion crust *must* >> contain glass. >> All of the literature from NIninger to Buchwald, to >> Krinov, to >> modern-day descriptions of meteorites entering the USNM >> from >> Antarctica - they all state that irons have fusion crusts. >> >> In other words, you're saying the definition shouldn't be >> changed from >> one in which glass is an indisputable component of fusion >> crust when >> that's not stated anywhere in the first place. >> You can't advocate *maintaining* a definition when it's >> *never* been >> accepted as fact, because that's not how definitions >> work. It needs >> to be accepted before you can try to "keep it >> accepted." Otherwise >> you're just advocating a new theory based on the historical >> merit of >> the theory - which, if it has never been accepted in the >> first place, >> is simply circular reasoning. >> >> You're the one advocating a backwards sort of change, >> Elton. We're >> going along with accepted meteoritics. And unless you >> have a reason >> to say that glass is an inherent component of what we are >> to deem >> fusion crust, I suggest that you come up with a better >> reason than >> "it's defined that way," because it's getting old. >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> >>> --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Martin Altmann >> wrote: >>> >>>> From: Martin Altmann >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust on >> Irons--Not >>>> To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 7:21 AM >>>> Unlike in politics and public opinion >>>> (and sometimes in science), >>>> in meteoritics it sometimes can be more difficult >> to adhere to >>>> theories/legends,if one gets samples in ones very >> hands, which exhibit the opposite of that, the theory >> postulates. >>>> >>>> If you ever had an early picked Sikhote at hand, >>>> or if you had taken from Andi Gren's Boguslavka >> slices >>>> (a fall, who simply hadn't enough time in field, >> to develop >>>> a magnetite, wuestite, limonite or whatever -ite >> weathering crust), >>>> you would be very surprised. >>>> >>>> Cause they don't display that ominous blue-ish >> flimsy >>>> luster, which is often reported as fusion crust, >> but a thick and fat layer of a discernibly different matter >> than the material beneath, of a dark color and rough to >> silky surface. >>>> >>>> I never believed in iron fusion crusts neither, >> but when I >>>> got in these freshly picked up observed falls, I >> was disabused. >>>> >>>> Main problem in that question is, as it was >> correctly >>>> mentioned here, that we simply have so few >> pristine samples of fresh iron falls and that most irons we >> get in our collections arrive with weathered or artificially >> cleaned surfaces. >>>> >>>> Now you may argue about the word "crust" as a >>>> (pseudo-)scientific term...well for me scientific >> terms are best, when they keep most of their meaning they >> have in their common use in the language. And there crust - >> meant for me a layer on the outside of an object. >>> >>>> .....and we have the problem, that there exist >> these >>>> freshly fallen lumps with that strange crust. >> Shall we hide them in the deepest corner of our drawers, >> cause they don't fit in the axiom, that fusion crusts are >> fusion crusts only, when silicates are melting? >>>> >>>> Sometimes, if the results don't fit into a theory, >> one has >>>> to think about modifying the theory, >>>> >>>> Else there wouldn't be no meteorites in our sense >> at all, >>>> Nada, Niente, Nix, Nimic, cause we all would know >> that they are products of our Aristotelian atmosphere, >> solidfied accumulations of terrestrial vapours and probably >> created by lightning strokes,wouldn't we? >>>> >>>> Best! >>>> Martin >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>> >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 From astroroks at hotmail.com Fri Nov 20 13:03:01 2009 From: astroroks at hotmail.com (Dennis Miller) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:03:01 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah Meteor.... Message-ID: Good Morning Listoids! I spent all of Thursday talking to the fine folks in Southwest Utah. The military folks at Dugway Proving Grounds were helpful in providing me with information about the Granite Peak area and at this time are not allowing any access. But took my name and number should that change. The area just South of Granite Peak between Callao and Fish Springs, along the grounds Southern border, is BLM and State. We can hope the impact was there. The Juab County Sheriff department said that area is essentially wide open but should use extreme caution if you dare enter there. Does anyone on the list know Christopher Cokinos well enough to call him and ask what information he may have. He was on the news and said he was researching the path and gathering statements. I like his new book "The Fallen Sky". I have never met him. Hope to! Dennis in NWNM _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 From jkellybeatty at comcast.net Fri Nov 20 13:12:37 2009 From: jkellybeatty at comcast.net (Kelly Beatty) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:12:37 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah Meteor.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dennis and list... > Does anyone on the list know Christopher Cokinos well enough to call > him and ask what information he may have. I know Chris from dealings with him at Sky & Telescope. seems like a good guy who likes backyard observing. I'd try contacting him directly. clear skies, Kelly **************** J. Kelly Beatty Senior Contributing Editor SKY & TELESCOPE 617-416-9991 SkyandTelescope.com From meteoritekid at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 13:25:20 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:25:20 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ablation Zone 5 Layers...Not In-Reply-To: <65E0BA72D5444D288B0FD505E0B70954@StarmanPC> References: <730569.7558.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <65E0BA72D5444D288B0FD505E0B70954@StarmanPC> Message-ID: <93aaac890911201025s2d4c425fxc8d9f1daf9fdb1a6@mail.gmail.com> Al, Perhaps you should have read my last message a little more thoroughly as well. I went out of my way to clarify. I even said the following: "Not a single person on this list is saying that all iron meteorites have fusion crusts, just as not a single person on this list has ever said that all stony meteorites have fusion crusts. My point of view is that generally speaking, when an iron meteorite falls, it is covered by what is deemed a fusion crust (barring extenuating circumstances like an explosive impact [eg. Sikhote shrapnel], or extremely late atmospheric fragmentation). Just as most stony meteorite exhibit a fusion crust as well (barring an explosive impact [eg. Carancas], etc, etc)." I further stated that: "Well yeah. Rust isn't fusion crust, but I might as well ask you if you think that taking an acetylene torch to a stony meteorite and melting its surface would create a fusion crust. The key, I think you would agree, is in its method of formation...." So, no, I don't believe that all iron meteorites are covered by fusion crust. Just the fresh ones, assuming they're not the product of an explosive impact, late fragmentation, etc. Do you disagree? Jason What Elton is suggesting is that On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 8:59 AM, al mitt wrote: > Hi Elton, > > You've brought up some very good discussion on the definition of fusion > crusted specimens. I went to the authority, Buchwald's Iron Meteorites to > see what he called it. He has written a lot about it. He states: "Cuts > perpendicular to the surface of a freshly fallen iron meteorite disclose > fusion crusts and heat affected rim zones. While the fusion crusts on stone > meteorites are usually a product of simple melting, the crusts on iron > meteorites are complex. The fusion crusts are the adhering remnants of > ablated metal from the last part of the trajectory left on the surface when > the velocity decreased below about 3 km/sec., and ablation ceased. The > fusion crusts are, in principle, composed of an exterior fully oxidized, > rapidly solidified nonmetallic melt." > > He shows a number of samples that are iron meteorites with various fusion > crusts and identifies them that way. In some cases thick metallic fusion > crust to describe flows and so forth. While I think there is some agreement > with what Buchwald said and your trying to say, he still calls it fusion > crust. Not to say that it is a term that is accurately describing a > scientific effect on the outside of iron specimens. > > I have always felt and called some of my fresh iron falls fusion crusted > because that is what Buchwald has defined them as in his books and feel it > is a fair term to use unless a better term is identified and used by the > scientific community that would label it different. I do know as you have > pointed out that the term is often exaggerated way beyond the term that > accurately defines it in Buchwald's Books and certainly abused by some > seller of meteorites. Perhaps with this discussion, the overuse of the term > on irons will be more carefully applied. All my best! > > --AL Mitterling > > Mitterling Meteorites > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "MEM" > To: "Meteorite-list" ; "Jason Utas" > > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 9:01 AM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ablation Zone 5 Layers...Not > > > Dear Jason ?If everything is a part of the fusion crust than every meteorite > is fusion crusted end of discussion. ?So are you really saying that every > meteorite regardless of how condition has fusion crust even if all the extra > trans-located material is missing? > > I don't have the luxury of going point by point as you have but apparently > you are unfamiliar with the Oxford and Cambridge dictionary definitions as > well as all their Dictionaries of Geology. Most of the literature and > practically all of the referenced websites use the silicate glassy/glassy > term in defining fusion crust--and in context they are most always speaking > of stoney meteorites. > > We've been down this discussion before and while I respect Buchwald's > observations: he is ?an industrial metallurgist and had no training I can > see in mineralogy nor geology. He became a iron meteorite subject matter > expert in his own right( I don't know that he ever did any work on any other > type. I see no incentive on his part to reevaluate the surface changes as he > was focused on cataloging the interior features. Somehow I don't think > "crust" was an issue for him and in the absence of inquiry into the use of > the term there was never a need to rethink it. ?He has an email > address--write him and ask him what he meant. > > Nininiger was a biology teacher and while another legitimate self-made > expert in the field it wasn't technically oriented until late in his career. > This shouldn't be taken as disrespectful and doesn't mean that everything he > assumed was gospel-- especially given the state of scientific tools in his > lifetime. ?He laid the foundation for meteoritical study but that doesn't > mean he knew all there was to know about meteorites. ?His book about > meteorite surface features was mainly a photo documentation with little > analysis and generally lacking in comparative studies of the crust. > > Much of this argument that they are "the experts" and as such are > infallible, is misguided and out of context, as the tools available now are > vastly more quantitative than tools of their day. So is our body of > knowledge more complete than during their careers. ( > > I am calling the ablation surface below any "crust" feature because > well...it is. The ablation surface is the last level we can ascertain the > fusion has occurred. When the crust is worn away the ablation surface is > revealed. I am also not calling the oxide coating a "fusion crust" > because,... ?well...it isn't ( necessarily) fused material and represents > either condensation or contact metamorphism of the final flight air soaked, > modified surface. ?I am also not calling the surface of SA's which show > aero-thermo-dynamic interaction that form the troughs "crust" because > partial melting/softening/gas jet ablation does not meet the definition of > fusion/fusing. How you see it as fusion crust illustrates my point that we > call everything fusion crust when it is not even fused material. I think it > deserves a more objective review and understanding of the complexities and > not reduced to a universal simplicity. As to my point about extensively > rusted/shalely Canyon > Diablos being said to have "fusion crust", sounds like we are in violent > agreement. > > The point of addressing the loss of the coating over time was to suggest > further inquiry into what the actual chemical composition was and to > indicate I felt it was a class of mineral/compounds which were unstable in > an oxygen rich atmosphere. > > Again --some irons have apparent classical fusion crust but, I have to > disagree that all irons have fusion crust--that is why ablation surface is > an important distinction and is better nomenclature that serves as a > starting point for discussing all meteorite surfaces and where crust begins > and ends. ?I believe when and where it is found it needs as much analytical > scrutiny as we spend on the interior so we know its source material and how > it came to be crust. > > Rather than me reiterate what I've already addressed perhaps you would like > to read it more collaboratively as some of what you replied to skipped over > where there is agreement and also you've challenged the studies about how > deeply thermal alteration occurs in different meteorites. > > I am not ready to roll over on the claim that a chemically bonded oxide > constitutes fusion crust unless you want to drop the word fusion. ?I > proposed some terms for use in defining a meteorite's surface more > descriptively. ?Other than disagree out of principle, you didn't give a > counter argument as to why the model I laid out was in error. > > Finally I will reiterate the problems with trying to have a reasonable > succinct discussion when out of context examples are introduced as if they > were the rule rather than the exception they are. > > Elton > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From daistiho at hotmail.com Fri Nov 20 14:54:15 2009 From: daistiho at hotmail.com (tracy latimer) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:54:15 +0000 Subject: [meteorite-list] The Northwest Fireball, 11/17 Message-ID: Is anyone up in Wyoming-Idaho-Washington searching for fallout from the big bolide? Has anyone heard if anything has been recovered, or a likely search area? Best! Tracy Latimer _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From astroroks at hotmail.com Fri Nov 20 14:50:52 2009 From: astroroks at hotmail.com (Dennis Miller) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:50:52 -0600 Subject: [meteorite-list] Utah Meteor... Message-ID: http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=8736952&autostart=y Here is Chris on the morning news in Salt Lake City. Thanks Kelly, I'll try the University for his home phone is unlisted. Dennis _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Fri Nov 20 15:36:30 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:36:30 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Item About Meteorites in Ripleys-Believe-it-or-not Message-ID: List: I'm on a fact finding mission, is this true? It makes sense to me, but the funny thing is I've only found a few that small.? Maybe I need to get my eyes checked... again. http://news.yahoo.com/comics/ripleys-believe-it-or-not Greg S. _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 From stanleygregr at hotmail.com Fri Nov 20 15:43:39 2009 From: stanleygregr at hotmail.com (Greg Stanley) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:43:39 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] =?windows-1256?q?Item_About_Meteorites_in_Ripley?= =?windows-1256?q?s-Believe-it-or-not=FE_-_undate?= Message-ID: List: I misread it - I though it was meteorites reaching the ground.? But it's meteors hitting the atmosphere. Greg S. _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Fri Nov 20 16:07:39 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:07:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Mars Odyssey THEMIS Images: November 16-20, 2009 Message-ID: <200911202107.nAKL7daI000639@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> MARS ODYSSEY THEMIS IMAGES November 16-20, 2009 o Kaiser Crater Dunes (16 November 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091116a o Mangala Vallis (17 November 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091117a o Coprates Chasma (18 November 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091118a o Tyrrhena Fossae (19 November 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091119a o Tyrrhena Fossae (20 November 2009) http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091120a All of the THEMIS images are archived here: http://themis.asu.edu/latest.html NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory manages the 2001 Mars Odyssey mission for NASA's Office of Space Science, Washington, D.C. The Thermal Emission Imaging System (THEMIS) was developed by Arizona State University, Tempe, in co.oration with Raytheon Santa Barbara Remote Sensing. The THEMIS investigation is led by Dr. Philip Christensen at Arizona State University. Lockheed Martin Astronautics, Denver, is the prime contractor for the Odyssey project, and developed and built the orbiter. Mission operations are conducted jointly from Lockheed Martin and from JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena. From baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Fri Nov 20 16:19:10 2009 From: baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:19:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] Mars Exploration Rovers Update: November 13-19, 2009 Message-ID: <200911202119.nAKLJA4o003525@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/status.html SPIRIT UPDATE: Extrication Attempt Begins - sols 2084-2090, Nov. 13-19, 2009: Spirit has begun her long-awaited extrication process. The first commanded motion was on Sol 2088 (Nov. 17, 2009). Two straight forward steps of 2.5 meters (8.2 feet) each were sequenced. However, due to a hair-trigger limit on the rover tilt, the drive stopped as soon as it began and no discernable motion in the rover was observed. With improved value for the rover tilt, the same two-step motion was sequenced on Sol 2090 (Nov. 19, 2009). Spirit successfully completed the first step of the planned motion. The second step was not performed because Spirit exceeded the 1-centimeter (0.4-inch) three-dimensional distance limit that was imposed in the plan. The center of the rover moved approximately 12 millimeters (0.5 inch) forward, 7 millimeters (0.3 inch) to the left and about 4 millimeters (0.2 inch) down. The rover tilt changed by around 0.1 degree. Small forward motion was observed with the non-operable right-front wheel. The left-front wheel showed indications of climbing. It is cautioned that these motions are too small to establish any trends at this time. The plan ahead is to continue forward driving once all the necessary analysis is complete and reviewed. As of Sol 2090 (Nov. 19, 2009), Spirit's solar-array energy production is 346 watt-hours, with an atmospheric opacity (tau) of 0.517 and a dust factor of 0.588. Total odometry is 7,729.97 meters (4.80 miles). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ OPPORTUNITY UPDATE: 'Marquette' Study Begins - sols 2063-2068, Nov. 12-17, 2009: Opportunity has been investigating a rock called "Marquette Island." The rover approached the rock on Sol 2063 (Nov. 12, 2009) and has been using the Moessbauer (MB) spectrometer and alpha particle X-ray spectrometer (APXS) to collect measurements on the rock to assist in determining the rock composition. Opportunity also has taken close-up images using the microscopic imager (MI) on Sol 2065 (Nov. 14, 2009). The rock abrasion tool (RAT) on the arm will lightly brush the rock to reveal the surface beneath the layer of dust. After receiving the results of the RAT brush, the science team will decide whether to look even deeper into the rock by grinding a couple of millimeters (about a tenth of an inch) down into it and performing additional science observations. There has also been extensive imaging of the surrounding rocks around Marquette. The elevation mirror shroud of the miniature thermal emission spectrometer (Mini-TES) is being opened when appropriate with the expectation of eventual dust cleaning. No dust cleaning of the Mini-TES mirror has been noted yet. As of Sol 2068 (Nov. 17, 2009), Opportunity's solar-array energy production was 385 watt-hours, with an atmospheric opacity (tau) of 0.482 and a dust factor of 0.530. Total odometry was 18,906.82 meters (11.75 miles). From star_wars_collector at yahoo.com Fri Nov 20 19:05:39 2009 From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com (Greg Catterton) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:05:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - Meteorites for sale! Lasers too! 10% off Message-ID: <115543.93870.qm@web46403.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi to all! I have some nice meteorites listed on ebay at some very nice prices. 10% off any sale done off ebay (less fees for me, better price for you) http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZwanderingstarmeteoritesQQhtZ-1 There is Tatahouine, Lunar, Martian, Camel Donga, Olivine Diogenite and a good deal more - Included a few complete slices of a very neat NWA meteorite with interesting features (testing is currently being done) and some nice L/LL(?) end cuts. Check out my website, those interested in Astronomy might have interest in new lasers pointers I have for sale (great for pointing things out in the sky to others) The lasers are $5 off the listed price until thanksgiving. Thanks for looking, Greg C. www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA 4682 From meteoritekid at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 11:24:05 2009 From: meteoritekid at gmail.com (Jason Utas) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 08:24:05 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Ablation Zone 5 Layers...Not In-Reply-To: <730569.7558.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <93aaac890911200358i28916c75y6ce699e18422829b@mail.gmail.com> <730569.7558.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <93aaac890911200824y2fd48495kb406daf09143e2a2@mail.gmail.com> Elton, All, > Dear Jason ?If everything is a part of the fusion crust than every meteorite is fusion crusted end of discussion. ?So are you really saying that every meteorite regardless of how condition has fusion crust even if all the extra trans-located material is missing? It appears that you simply did not read my previous message. If you had, you would have seen the following statement: "I would define the fusion crust as the layer of meteoric material transformed into melt during a meteorite's ablative stages of flight, which later solidifies into a solid coating of material on the surface of the stone, iron, what have you." To be frank, I'm disappointed in your response. I take a bit of time in responding to you. As something of a courtesy, you might afford me the same. At least going so far as to read the entirety of what I've written would be a nice start. > I don't have the luxury of going point by point as you have If you're going to reply to a mere part of my message, I would be much obliged if you would refrain from attempting to summarize everything I've said with false statements such as those above. I mean, it's still kind of dickish if you're going to perpetuate the thread without addressing someone who disagrees with you in full, but the least you could do is refrain from lying when possible. >but apparently you are unfamiliar with the Oxford and Cambridge dictionary definitions as well as all their Dictionaries of Geology. Most of the literature and practically all of the referenced websites use the silicate glassy/glassy term in defining fusion crust--and in context they are most always speaking of stoney meteorites. Well, there are two obvious problems with your reasoning here. 1) You're trusting the authors of a bunch of geologic dictionaries with the definition of a meteoric concept. Have you ever looked through encyclopedias of geology and glanced at the definitions of, say, meteorites, or of related concepts? They're very often lacking, or incorrect about any number of details regarding meteoritics. It's not their fault - it's just that meteorites are a fringe-science related to geology. Related to the studies of, but generally not studied by mainstream geologists. And then you quote Norton's book. Norton graduated with a degree of Astronomy, and while he did great petrographic work, he has about as much qualification in determining what is or isn't a fusion crust as does anyone else with a similar degree who's been recreationally studying meteorites for any period of time. Granted, he has written a number of great books describing meteorites, but you're talking about a specialized aspect of the science in which he has done little to no research. 2) You're insinuating that these authors have stated that iron meteorites do not form fusion crusts when, in all likelihood, they probably just 'left out the part about irons.' It's one thing to say that 'meteorites have a glassy fusion crust' when ~92% of all meteorites are stony and thus have glassy fusion crusts. It's another thing entirely to say that iron meteorites don't form fusion crusts. If writing a general encyclopedic definition of a fusion crust, do you think an author is going to delve that deeply into each definition? I would think it a great thing if he or she did, but I know for a fact that that's not how such books are written. No one could know that much about every field of EPS, and if they took the time to research each subject to that level of depth, the book would be obsolete by decades before it was halfway done. > ?We've been down this discussion before and while I respect Buchwald's observations: he is ?an industrial metallurgist and had no training I can see in mineralogy nor geology. Well, you clearly do not respect his observations because you yourself are refuting them. Well, perhaps respect is a bit of a vague word in this case. You may "respect" them, but you certainly don't agree with them. Nigh on every meteorite mentioned in his handbook is either noted as possessing a fusion crust - or is noted as lacking one (the implication being that the given iron would have had a fusion crust were it a more recent fall). So you clearly are at odds with him on this issue. >He became a iron meteorite subject matter expert in his own right( I don't know that he ever did any work on any other type. I see no incentive on his part to reevaluate the surface changes as he was focused on cataloging the interior features. Yes and no. His goal was to write a comprehensive historical, physical, and chemical description of every meteorite. The only irons for which he did not provide a general description of the exterior (and its relative degree of age, insofar as it could be inferred from the state of the iron's fusion crust, general morphology, and reheated rim) were the irons of which he was unable to obtain a representative sample, and of which no older descriptions have been found or made available to him. True, his descriptions discussed the interiors of the meteorites in greater length, but when he could, he described the exterior of each meteorite *in full.* Beyond that, most geologists really don't have much experience working with superheated metals - do you really think that the geologist authors who wrote your dictionaries were qualified in any way to comment on the fusion crust of iron meteorites? Hell, if I focused in EPS here, one of the last things I'd be worried about is what happens when you superheat various mixtures of metal in an ablative situation. And how much do you think Norton worked on the subject with a degree in - not even astrophysics, but astronomy. The requirements for such a major do not involve even rudimentary chemistry, or advanced physics. In advanced material dynamics and metallurgy, Buchwald's education would have covered that. >Somehow I don't think "crust" was an issue for him and in the absence of inquiry into the use of the term there was never a need to rethink it. ?He has an email address--write him and ask him what he meant. Well, I agree with his usage of the term. It would fall to you to ask him, since you are the one who disagrees. He uses the term hundreds of times in his Handbook - I see no need to question it. But this is just what I said above about your sources. Perhaps the authors of your geologic dictionaries and the encyclopedias you note simply didn't think that the fusion crust on iron meteorites could be conceived as anything else. After all, unless they went so far as to say that iron meteorites do not possess fusion crusts, you have nothing to support your theory that they *meant* anything to the contrary. If you gave me some authors' names, perhaps I could find their email addresses and ask them. > Nininiger was a biology teacher and while another legitimate self-made expert in the field it wasn't technically oriented until late in his career. ?This shouldn't be taken as disrespectful and doesn't mean that everything he assumed was gospel-- especially given the state of scientific tools in his lifetime. ?He laid the foundation for meteoritical study but that doesn't mean he knew all there was to know about meteorites. ?His book about meteorite surface features was mainly a photo documentation with little analysis and generally lacking in comparative studies of the crust. Ok, well, I don't really know what to say to this. You say that Nininger didn't know everything about meteorites - if I wanted to use the same tactic back, I could simply say that no one knows everything about meteoritics and thus we can't argue the point because no one knows the answer. No. Your argument is invalid. You're going through the leading experts in meteoritics who were more than adequately qualified to declare such nomenclature as valid or invalid, and you're backing your statements up with a few geology dictionaries, and a single book written by Norton, who admittedly has written some great materials for novices in the field, but who was by no means a true scientific author as compared to Buchwald, Mason, Krinov, Nininger, etc. Rocks From Space and The Cambridge Encyclopedia are great field guides, but there's a reason they're not often quoted in papers. > Much of this argument that they are "the experts" and as such are infallible, is misguided and out of context, as the tools available now are vastly more quantitative than tools of their day. So is our body of knowledge more complete than during their careers. ( That means nothing - coming from you and your army of meteorically-ignorant geologists and a single author of better repute. > I am calling the ablation surface below any "crust" feature because well...it is. Well, for starters, I'd like to point out that, since you're making up the terms, you can call whatever you want whatever you'd like, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with you. That said, for the purposes of this discussion, I'm going to speak as though what you say above is true. >The ablation surface is the last level we can ascertain the fusion has occurred. False. Technically speaking, you're looking at the surface of the unoxidized metal beneath the fusion crust comprise primarily of iron oxides. That said, while said metal would me observably changed by the iron's descent through the atmosphere, you're talking about metal that has not been fully melted, and is thus not "fused," as per the definition of the word. ?verb (used with object) 2. to combine or blend by melting together; melt. 3. to unite or blend into a whole, as if by melting together: The author skillfully fuses these fragments into a cohesive whole. ?verb (used without object) 4. to become liquid under the action of heat; melt: At a relatively low temperature the metal will fuse. 5. to become united or blended: The two groups fused to create one strong union. Note - no glass. You're getting sidetracked, by the way; I was under the impression that we were arguing about whether or not iron meteorites could have a fusion crust or not. I'd prefer if we stayed on-topic in the future, because the classification scheme that you're putting for is in my opinion, needless terminology. >When the crust is worn away the ablation surface is revealed. If you say this, then the two examples you gave us - Canyon Diablo and Nantan are simply horrible examples. Both of these meteorites have experienced such substantial terrestrial weathering so as to remove any trace of both fusion crust - and reheated rims. As such the ablative surfaces on these irons has been completely and utterly destroyed by corrosion. The few examples you could have put forth of visible ablative surfaces include a few desert meteorites, from which the fusion crust has been stripped by sandblasting, without the removal of any amount of underlying metal, and some antarctic irons, due to analogous processes that occur in Antarctica involving windblown ice-crystals. The only available photos of such specimens that I could find are in my photostream - www.flickr.com/calimeteoritefinder Check the Ziz set. >I am also not calling the oxide coating a "fusion crust" because,... ?well...it isn't ( necessarily) fused material and represents either condensation or contact metamorphism of the final flight air soaked, modified surface. Same goes for stony meteorites - the physical forces acting upon the ablated material when an iron meteorite falls are identical to those in effect when a stony meteorite is falling, and the phase diagrams for the material in each situation are going to differ slightly in their equilibrium curves, but the physics is the same. If ablated material is going to be condensing out of the plasma surrounding an iron meteorite in its final stages of ablation, the same will happen when a stony meteorite is falling. That's physics, and you can't mess with condensation curves and the principles of dynamic equilibrium as they apply to phase changes. You're not even arguing with it as a concept; you're saying it only applies to metallic minerals when it clearly doesn't. >I am also not calling the surface of SA's which show aero-thermo-dynamic interaction that form the troughs "crust" because partial melting/softening/gas jet ablation does not meet the definition of fusion/fusing. How you see it as fusion crust illustrates my point that we call everything fusion crust when it is not even fused material. I think it deserves a more objective review and understanding of the complexities and not reduced to a universal simplicity. Your argument is irrelevant. Where vaporization is occurring on a fusion crust does not alter the simple fact that this ablative process is still occurring to a mm-thick layer of melted oxides that were formerly kamacite and taenite within the given meteorite. You're saying that I'm wrong and then going off on an unrelated tangent to prove your point. It doesn't make sense. >As to my point about extensively rusted/shalely Canyon Diablos being said to have "fusion crust", sounds like we are in violent agreement. Well yeah. Rust isn't fusion crust, but I might as well ask you if you think that taking an acetylene torch to a stony meteorite and melting its surface would create a fusion crust. The key, I think you would agree, is in its method of formation.... > The point of addressing the loss of the coating over time was to suggest further inquiry into what the actual chemical composition was and to indicate I felt it was a class of mineral/compounds which were unstable in an oxygen rich atmosphere. Which is only relevant if one is to buy into your assumption that the internal composition is important in determining whether or not a meteorite has a fusion crust... I suppose you could say that it is scientifically relevant to describe the characteristics of your "layers" schema for scientific purposes, but I see no need to use such verbose terminology, when such things are already described in papers regularly, as I pointed out in the paper I posted to the last email: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1982Metic..17...27R > Again --some irons have apparent classical fusion crust but, I have to disagree that all irons have fusion crust--that is why ablation surface is an important distinction and is better nomenclature that serves as a starting point for discussing all meteorite surfaces and where crust begins and ends. I think it would be safe to say that everyone on this email list who has been following this thread just did a double-take. Well guess what, Elton - not all stones have fusion crusts either!!!!! You're freaking ridiculous. Not a single person on this list is saying that all iron meteorites have fusion crusts, just as not a single person on this list has ever said that all stony meteorites have fusion crusts. My point of view is that generally speaking, when an iron meteorite falls, it is covered by what is deemed a fusion crust (barring extenuating circumstances like an explosive impact [eg. Sikhote shrapnel], or extremely late atmospheric fragmentation). Just as most stony meteorite exhibit a fusion crust as well (barring an explosive impact [eg. Carancas], etc, etc). >I believe when and where it is found it needs as much analytical scrutiny as we spend on the interior so we know its source material and how it came to be crust. For the purposes of science, I applaud your advocation that we study the interiors of meteorites so that we know more about their crusts, and from whence these crusts have come. I further advocate their study so that we might learn more about the history of the solar system, life, and all of that rubbish, but yes - for the moment, let us focus on their crusts. Please... > Rather than me reiterate what I've already addressed perhaps you would like to read it more collaboratively as some of what you replied to skipped over where there is agreement and also you've challenged the studies about how deeply thermal alteration occurs in different meteorites. No...I went over your message thoroughly, and, to be frank, the places where we agreed had little to do with the topic at hand, which is whether or not iron meteorites form a fusion crust when they fall. You've admitted as much above, though, so I don't really know what to say - I mean, it wasn't just me who thought that you were saying that no iron meteorites form a fusion crust, so I wasn't simply misreading your words. > I am not ready to roll over on the claim that a chemically bonded oxide constitutes fusion crust unless you want to drop the word fusion. ?I proposed some terms for use in defining a meteorite's surface more descriptively. ?Other than disagree out of principle, you didn't give a counter argument as to why the model I laid out was in error. To Fuse: ?verb (used with object) 2. to combine or blend by melting together; melt. 3. to unite or blend into a whole, as if by melting together: The author skillfully fuses these fragments into a cohesive whole. ?verb (used without object) 4. to become liquid under the action of heat; melt: At a relatively low temperature the metal will fuse. 5. to become united or blended: The two groups fused to create one strong union. Fusion: ?noun 1. the act or process of fusing; the state of being fused. 2. that which is fused; the result of fusing: A ballet production is the fusion of many talents. also fu?sion (fy??'zh?n) n. 1. The act or procedure of liquefying or melting by the application of heat. 2. The liquid or melted state induced by heat. 3. a. The merging of different elements into a union: the fusion of copper and zinc to form brass; the difficult fusion of conflicting political factions. b. A union resulting from fusing: A fusion of religion and politics emerged. No, "fusion" is perfect in describing the ablative crust that forms on both iron and siliceous meteorites. Glass has nothing to do with the word, and if you're going to keep advocating the nomenclature change based on a few misinformed non-topical dictionaries and a single book written by a lay-scientist, well, I really don't know what to say. > Finally I will reiterate the problems with trying to have a reasonable succinct discussion when out of context examples are introduced as if they were the rule rather than the exception they are. Out of context examples? You're one to talk. I'd ask you for an example, but I know you'll just use it to distract myself and others from the real point, so I don't know what to say. How about just clearly stating your reasons for believing that freshly fallen iron meteorites do not possess fusion crusts, and why the material deemed "fusion crust" must contain some amount of siliceous glass. I want quotes, authors, and your personal hypothesis as to why glass is necessary in what is to be deemed "fusion crust." Jason > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Jason Utas wrote: > >> From: Jason Utas >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ablation Zone 5 Layers...Not >> To: "Meteorite-list" >> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 6:58 AM >> Hello Elton, All, >> I'm going to go through this bit by bit to do it >> justice... >> >> >> > Yes on a freshly recovered iron, there appears to be a >> "film" of what we believe is "magnetite-like oxide/nitride >> micro-crystals, probably including some sulfide and >> phosphide minerals" which form through interaction with hot >> atmospheric plasma. ?Even though some of it is magnetic, >> some of it is easily dislodged with a wipe of the finger. >> >> >> I assume this coating is relatable to the iridescent film >> which often coats stony meteorites - the film that often disappears >> within days of a fall. >> >> >I surmise that this rapidly goes to hematite or >> limonite but I've not thought through the chemistry and I >> suspect a valence discrepancy that makes this type meteoric >> "magnetite" unstable. The mineral assemblage