[N&W] RE: Coal on the Powhatan Arrow??

[nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org]

 >In the January Issue of Trains, pg 49, column 1, Don Phillips says ..."In
 >the last days of N&W passenger trains, the eastbound Pocahontas or the
 >Powhatan Arrow would occasionally roll by with a single loaded hopper car
 >on the rear.
 >1- Is it True?
 >2- If so how common was this?
 >
 >Mason Cooper

I recall one Sunday evening in about 1967 I was returning to Va Tech from my
hometown of Lynchburg and saw the eastbound Powhatan Arrow as it was
entering Montgomery Tunnel. It had several covered hoppers on the rear. I
always wondered about this and never saw it again.

Ray Smoot
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Good Morning MYC,

I never saw hoppers on the rear of any passenger trains in regular service.
But that is NOT to say it was not done.

However, towards the end of passenger service, they did run hi-cube box cars
on the rear No. 26. I don't recall emty cars ever being returned west on No.
25.

If I recall correctly, it was usually only 1 or 2 hi-cubes.

I have a few phoos of same taken here at PO.

I do recall this - a yard crew was swithing No. 26 late in the passenger era
here at PO and had a hi-cube box right next to the pair of T-6s' they were 
working
with. The Engr. claimed he could not see the singal from the ground man and
ran in to the rear end of No. 26 and shook up several passengers. I have an
accident report on same in my files.

Why the Engr. did not follow the N&W Book of Rules and stop the movement 
immediately
when he could not see the ground man, especially in switching a passener 
train,is
beyond me. The entire crew was given time on the street for thier little 
problem.

Tom "N&W" Dressler
_____________________________________________________________________
M Cooper
The ARROW and others ran with AUTO PARTS box cars in its last days. They
were hooked on the rear.
Oakie G Ford
_____________________________________________________________________
Gary Rolih writes:

I'm no ex-employee or ex-railroader, so.....
I read that, too. It struck me as an urban-legend-sort-of-thing. Why would 
the N&W hook a single car on to a passenger train when so many coal trains 
went to Lamberts Point each day? How does a single 55 or 70 ton load of 
coal alter the percentage of load in a ship carrying 9000 tons or more? ( 
100 tons/9000 is less than 1%) Why would a car with a limited speed be put 
on a train with cars capable of significantly higher speeds? Where would 
the N&W do this? Stop the train in Portsmouth, Ohio yard and tack it on? 
That ought to be about a 30 minute delay?

What about the different braking systems on freight cars and passenger 
cars? Doesn't that difference limit the speeds to Mixed Trains rambling speeds?

I am looking forward to the letters to the ED in the next TRAINS. There 
should be a few pithy one there!
________________________________________________________________________
They had a commemorative load come in to celebrate some anniversary, but it
happened once and I don't remember if it was on 4 or a special train.Tommy
_________________________________________________________________________
I'd like to see a picture of this! I guess nothing is impossible, but a car 
load of coal on the end of a passenger train? Can any of you railroaders 
tell us what air brake adjustments would have to be made to make a loaded 
hopper compatible with passenger train braking? I know other roads, 
Seaboard and Southern in particular, moved priority freight, usually 
trailer on flat car, on the end of passenger trains. The Silver Comet ran 
out its last years this way, and so did the Southern secondary passenger 
trains they continued to operate after they decided to stay out of Amtrak 
in 1971.
Rick Morrison
__________________________________________________________________________
Mason:
I've reread Don Phillips' "Black Diamonds" in which he contends
that:

1. All coal is not created equal.
TRUE. Analysis of coal mined on N&W varied as to per
cent of volatile matter, fixed carbon, ash, and sulphur.

2. The eastbound Pocahontas or Powhatan Arrow would occasion-
ally roll by with a single loaded coal hopper.
MAYBE. I worked on Norfolk Terminal 1960-64 and February
through May of 1971 and never saw coal on the passenger
trains, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

3. That the single hopper was going to "pump up" the contracted
Btu's on a ship loading at Lamberts Point.

A ship calling at Hampton Roads for coal might take on, say
70,000 tons. Some took on more; some less. A 70,000 ton
loading required seven hundred 100-ton equivalent hoppers,
or three coal trains hauling jam-up tonnage. One car is going
to be sufficient to pump up the Btu content in 699 ? The
contents of the car riding last in the passenger train must
have had "DYE KNOW MITE" Btu's!

Harry Bundy


Mason:
The practice of hauling coal on the Powhatan Arrow or Pocahontas
was not an everyday occurence.

1. At the demise of the Pocahontas (1971), the permit system was
not yet in effect at Lamberts Point and usually there were 17,000
to 19,000 cars of coal on hand at Norfolk Terminal. The different
classes of coal were named. One transshipper used colors
("Orange" was a popular class) and another months to identify
their different classes of coal. The transshippers usually worked
together. If short on a coal order, one transshipper would loan
another a car of "Orange" in return for a car of "November"
(similar in Btu content) when it arrived at Lamberts Point.

2. The coal office issued the General Yardmaster a coal order. The
GYM would then direct the roustabouts to the proper yard to
dig out, say 60 Orange, 60 July, 50 Lulu and put them on the
Barney Yard. Coming up short ONE car of coal wasn't exactly
a last minute revelation. Ships order in tons (not carloads) and
cars, at that time, were scaled as they rolled off the Barney Yard.
More often than not, the ship's tonnage was met and cars had
to be returned to storage prior to loading the next ship.

3. If No. 26 or No. 3 had a loaded H9 hopper, maximum
authorized speed would have been 25 MPH.
N&W did haul Ford parts on No. 4 (The Pocahontas). Ford practiced
"just-in-time" inventories for the Norfolk plant. Ford parts usually
arrived Portlock around midnight in No. 86 and were interchanged
to the NPBL for delivery to the Ford plant. Arriving parts would be
on the assembly line that morning. Occasionally a car would be
shopped (or mishandled) and N&W would play catch-up by running
the car to Portlock on No. 4. Ford would fly delayed parts to
Norfolk to keep the assembly line running. Ford eventually noted
that these shortages usually occured on Fridays and that the
plant manager would fly home to Detroit on the return flight for
the weekend.

Harry Bundy