Y Class rebuilding possibility

NW Mailing List nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
Mon Mar 12 22:58:17 EDT 2007

Gary,

You bring up logical things about foundry and machine shops, but I do not have the answers to them. Obviously, you have a lot of knowledge in this field that I do not.

I do not know if anything is even available to answer your questions about how many extra cylinders the Roanoke Shops kept on hand. One source I inquired during my interviews stated that cylinder replacement was rare, but did occur. Once in awhile a new cylinder was needed. I have looked over shop records from about 1952 to the end of steam for both Roanoke and Portsmouth, where classified repairs were made, and only one locomotive got a replacement cylinder and that was a Y3. This Y3 got an original, not Y5 style, cylinder. Again my guess is that after the Y5 cylinders were available as spares, rarely did the foundry have to cast many Y3/Y4 cylinders, if any.

I welcome any research in this area.

Bud Jeffries
----- Original Message -----
From: NW Mailing List
To: 'NW Mailing List'
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 4:46 PM
Subject: RE: Y Class rebuilding possibility


Bud:



I am basing these questions and thoughts on my years of experience as an engineer in heavy manufacturing where I was involved in producing a few, many hundreds and many thousands of a given part. The quantity of parts to be produced and the manufacturing method used are linked together directly. The method dictates the quantity and the quantity dictates the method. Each method has some level of uncertainty in it which leads to error and scrapped parts per lot of parts which can be figured out by a head-up engineering group. The Old East End shop people would have used comparable concepts to my experience.



While the N&W Shops foundry was 'captive' to the railway, the fact is that the foundry may and probably did pour cylinder castings over and above that necessary for the railroad's purposes due to the need to have some around for processing scrap and emergency repairs. The reason is that there is a cost 'one-time' to set up for the pour of parts. Thus, if one knows that there is a requirement for 'x' parts and maybe some for future repair, one is ahead in cost spent if one pours all of the needed and extras at one time. No additional set up costs are necessary. Since the casting process has a number of possible problems, it is very likely that at least one extra casting was made of the cylinders. The time to find that the cores have shifted (or porosity in the casting or whatever) so that one of the machining operations will not machine to the proper dimensions is not at that step. If the foundry has to set up again to make one additional part there is an additional set up that must be paid for again plus the time lost. This was likely the policy for the foundry and machine shop. Too, the castings can be aged and stress relieved if left out in the back lot, thus the 'extra' castings can be stress relieved for free. Also, we don't know what the policy was in the shops for the production of repair parts for stock for future use regarding quantity to be on hand and what the desired lead time was for returning damaged locomotives to service compared to the actual lead time necessary to produce the component from scratch.



(Some parts are too costly to make more than necessary, some are not so costly that running an extra or two is feasible. It generally boils down to how much the one-time or set up costs and material costs are and what the resulting amortized costs are across the number produced per lot is.)



What I am proposing is that research into these areas- lead time for parts, timing policy for rebuilding loco's, and other repair parts policies might give us the clues to determine what quantity of parts were actually run and perhaps machined.





Gary Rolih




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From: nw-mailing-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-mailing-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Mailing List
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 12:05 AM
To: NW Mailing List
Subject: Re: Y Class rebuilding possibility



Gary,



I don't know the technical answers to your points. Since the N&W Roanoke Shops had its own foundry, I doubt it cast many, if any, extra castings such as large cylinders. It probably did this on demand because of the expense. This is not like getting a commercial foundry to do this with some extras thrown in because of the long lead time and a lower unit cost for some extras. The N&W had the mechanical drawings, mold patterns and foundry which could respond much faster being all "in house".



After the Y5s were modernized and the original cylinders and frames became surplus, they were initially applied to the Y3 and Y3s with the original Y3 and Y4 cylinders probably being held for use when needed in the future. Until documentation is availablle, we can only guess. It was much cheaper to keep the old ones that keep casting new ones for replacement.



Also the Y5s, when modernized, received bed castings with the cylinders cast integral. The N&W Foundry could not, and did not, cast these. They were done by an outside commercial source. The 19 Y5s were modernized in '40 and '41 while the 16 Y6a's were built in '42; the frames were identical for both classes.



Bud Jeffries

----- Original Message -----

From: NW Mailing List

To: 'NW Mailing List'

Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 3:38 PM

Subject: Y Class rebuilding possibility



Bud and Ed: One thing about making castings is that the casting process has numerous uncertainties in it. One of the real hassles is when one of the cores falls apart or looses its surface sand into the molten metal. Thus sand is distributed throughout the metal, making machining really nasty as the cutting tools cut through little pockets of sand. This casting would be too porous to use. Wears the heck out of the cutting tools, too!



Also, if the risers aren't right or didn't work right, there will be a lot of porous metal in the casting.



So, did the shops make extra parts? It is conceivable to me that the foundry may have made more castings than necessary to rebuild the Y-5's, anticipating some scrap. Also we do not know how many were poured as reserves for repair parts. A big casting sand pattern can take a couple of weeks to prepare and assemble. Then one has to consider how large a melt was needed to make the pour. The foundry may have only been able to heat up a large amount of metal under restricted conditions, thus forcing consideration of pouring extras for reserve when the foundry was capable of handling the task. If a Y class was smashed in a wreck, how soon did the N&W management expect the loco to be rebuilt and returned to service?



Another nasty feature of castings is that they have a lot of internal stresses in them fresh out of the mold. Machining a 'green' casting is likely to cause significant distortion which may misshape the casting beyond use. To stress relieve them, one needs to vibrate them for a time, soak them in high heat for some hours, or let the sit out in the back lot for 6-9 months. The vibratory trick wasn't invented until WWII time period. Furnaces big enough for a cylinder set may not have been readily available. How did the backshop choose to handle this problem?



So, maybe the N&W made extras that proved to be unneeded, but were used in a rebuild because of their obvious value to reduce maintenance and improve performance? Hard to say, and the company records may not give sufficient details to ever determine what caused what.



Gary Rolih

Cincinnati




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From: nw-mailing-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-mailing-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Mailing List
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:41 AM
To: NW Mailing List
Subject: Re: Y class engines that received ex-B&LE tenders



Ed,



And that 2049 got a set of those new cylinders in 1929 as an experiment and test before the Y5s were built. These larger piston valve cylinders were interchangeable with the Y3, Y3a, Y4 and original Y5 frames. So there were 21 sets to begin with. My guess is that the original clylinders were kept around for replacement, too, since I have some 1950s shop records showing LP cylinder replacement and the replaced cylinders were the original style. Interesting, and a lot of conjecture.



Bud Jeffries

----- Original Message -----

From: NW Mailing List

To: NW Mailing List

Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 12:17 AM

Subject: Re: Y class engines that received ex-B&LE tenders



Bud - don't forget that the 2092's front engine might have been used for a 2000; that would make 20.



EdKing

----- Original Message -----

From: NW Mailing List

To: NW Mailing List

Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 3:32 PM

Subject: Re: Y class engines that received ex-B&LE tenders



Brent,



This is difficult to answer exactly. No document has ever been uncovered that lists which locomotives got the Y5 cylinders /frames. The large cylinders were interchangeable between the Y3, Y3a, Y4 and the Y5 with bar frames. Two others and myself have compared notes on photos we have seen with the larger LP cylinders, and we all don't agree in total on which locomotives got them. Between us there are 28 that got them and there were only 19 Y5's at the time they were modernized. This means that either these cylinders were switched from one engine to another or additional ones were cast after 1941. If you see a photo, note the date since some exist with the same locomotive at different times with and without these cylinders.

----- Original Message -----

From: NW Mailing List

To: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org

Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 3:00 PM

Subject: Re: Y class engines that received ex-B&LE tender

Of the Y3/Y3a class engines that got these tenders, can you tell me which (if any) of these locomotives also had the former Y-5 front engines and which ones retained their original front engine?



Only the Y3a's got the B&LE tenders. 2055, 2056, 2063 and 2079 had B&LE tenders while having larger cylinders. 2061, 2062, 2065 and 2071 had these tenders with original size cylinders.

I would also like to find additional pictures of these locomotives. I have most of the available N&W books, so if you can give me the references and page numbers of published photos, or perhaps links to the VT photo archives while they are still accessable I would be most grateful.


Sincere thanks,

Brent

Tough to get a definitive answer on this one,

Bud Jeffries


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. J. Brent Greer



----- Original Message -----

From: NW Mailing List

To: NW Mailing List

Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 2:51 PM

Subject: Re: A tender question regarding a photo in the latest Arrow



In 1953-54, the N&W purchased secondhand nine 22000-gallon tenders that had been used by the Bessemer & Lake Erie on its 2-10-4s. Of the nine the N&W got, one was applied to a K1 and the other eight to Y3a's. The 2061 had tender number 220304 which it received in January 1954 at the Roanoke Shops.



Bud Jeffries

----- Original Message -----

From: NW Mailing List

To: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org

Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 12:47 PM

Subject: A tender question regarding a photo in the latest Arrow



In the new issue of the Arrow, at the top of page 10, there is a photograph of Y3a #2061 leading a coal train.

The tender of this locomotive has a very different look to it, compared to other N&W tenders I am familiar with and have photographs of (for comparison, just look at the one behind Y3a #2070 at the end of the train in the lower picture of that same page)

Can someone please identify the tender in use behind #2061 in the upper photograph and perhaps supply some history as to its origins?

Sincere thanks for any and all responses.


----------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. J. Brent Greer





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