Alexandria steam circa 1958-59 ???

[NW Mailing List]

Mark:

I just mentioned this train of thought to a
knowledgeable friend of mine (Ed Conner) who knows of
Southern operations and the region and he posed a few
additional points for all to consider.

1) He seems to remember that all coal facilities were
de-commissioned at Monroe at the end of 1957.

2) He also seems to remember that the Fruit Growers
Express had a fireless cooker and that was in the
vicinity of where you remember. Maybe they hadn't
charged it up in a few years and the regular service
diesel by that time was out of order and they charged
it up. ???

3) This could also have been a steam powered derrick
as the railroads used those until very late.

Just a few thoughts.

I doubt we're going to get anything other than a
mystery here but at least it's been given an airing.

Bob Cohen


Mark, all you saw was smoke rising above the trees? 
Maybe it was just an ALCO! They were called honorary
steam locomotives because of all of the smoke they put

> out!

> 

> Jerry Kay, Portsmouth, VA

> 

> 

> 

> ---- Original message ----

> >Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 09:54:39 -0800 (PST)

> >From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>  

> >Subject: NW-Mailing-List Digest, Vol 24, Issue 20  

> >To: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org

> >

> >Gentlemen, Mark, Ed and all:

> >

> >Let me toss some observations from research I have

> >done on the last revenue steam operations into the

> >Washington, DC region.

> >

> >I'm going to do this like 10 little Indians and if

> >someone else out there has better information, then

> >please step up to the plate.

> >

We all know that Southern steam had ended much earlier
than the others with the last actual steam runs into
or out of the DC area ending in the early part of 1952
by my research. There were steam work trains
continuing into the 2nd half of 1952 and a steam
switcher was reactivated in the Southern yards
during the Christmas rush.

> >

The Southern mainline water tanks and coal tipples
were all retired by mid-1953, kept in stand-by mode
for C&O which had requested such. I can provide
locales and dates if you want. Even Southern #1401
did NOT come up under its own power, being messengered
up in February 1953 with rods down.

The last C&O regular service steam run into or out
of the DC area was the early June 1953 excursion of
Hudson #490 to Charlottesville and back to DC and
this run is WELL-documented. The previous regular
service steam run had been 6-12 months earlier. I
don't have an exact date of this one either.

> >

The last RF&P steam run out of Pot Yard was
December 31,1953 and the last RF&P revenue steam run
out of Washington Union Station was during the New
Year's Mail Rush on January 3rd,1954 with #622 the
Carter Braxton providing the power. It is also
well-documented that the 10 RF&P steamers, after being
stored serviceable at Acca yard were leased to the
power short C&O during 1955 and were returned in
the first half of 1956. By 1958 they were all stored
outside and rusting away with their piston rods
disconnected since their return from the C&O 2 years
earlier B&O had ended daily steam service from the
north on Train #22 in early November 1953 to end steam
into Washington on the Baltimore Division. Amazingly,
the Pennsy ran a Thanksgiving weekend, steam powered
extra 3 weeks later to the Bowie Race Track 3 weeks
later from Washington Union Station but that was it
for those 2 carriers.

> >

> >ALSO, all lead engines on the RF&P had to have the

> >automatic train control devices which were not

> >compatible with the PRR's or other ATC's. I have

> not found any references of ACL or SAL steamers

having the ATC devices AFTER the start of Diesel
service in the early 1940's. Beside all ACL and SAL
steamers had been retired by the 1956 period.

> >

The ATC device is a key element in the plausibility
of operations on the RF&P. The Southern mainline did
not have such a control mechanism.

> >

N&W could have theoretically come up from Monroe until
around that time frame, but it's a 165-mile run for
that distance from Monroe to DC and I wonder how they
could have been coaled in between. Water canteens were
in use by then so that part of the servicing could be
explained with ease. From what I have read, the K1's
and K-2's were all retired by or during 1957 or
perhaps early 1958 but once again I would defer to a
more knowledgeable authority on that. I definitely
question if their range could even closely approximate
165-miles without being watered.

In the excursion days when 611 was run from Lynchburg
to Manassas, I remember them coaling the engine at
each end with a crane.

That's what I can offer from here and if this steam
report can be confirmed, I would find it most
interesting and enlightening.

> >

The first reported returning steam operation into the
region since 1954 was the General in March or April
1962 and it DID come up on the RF&P as I remember in
my reading.

Bob Cohen

> >

> >

> >-------------------------------------------------

> >Message: 1

> >Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 08:45:37 -0500

> >From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

> >Subject: Re: Classic Calendar faux pas?

> >To: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

> >Message-ID:

> ><001101c839a0$9f365db0$2f01a8c0 at 601ek604>

> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

> >

> >Don't know about the engine, Mark (except that it

> >wouldn't have been an N&W one) but the Atlantic

> Coast

> >Line didn't go to Alexandria. That crossing was the

> >Richmond, Fredericksburg and Potomac going over the

> >Southern main line. The ACL didn't get any closer

> to

> >Alexandria than Richmond. The C&O came into

> Alexandria

> >over the Southern from Charlottesville.  The ACL

> and

> >SAL trains came in over the RF&P.

> >> 

> >> Ed King

> >

> >>   ----- Original Message ----- 

> >>   From: NW Mailing List 

> >>   To: NW Mailing List 

> >>   Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 5:52 AM

> >>   Subject: Classic Calendar faux pas?

> >> 

> >OK History Buffs!  When I was very young, We lived

> in

> >Alexandria, just 1/5 mile from the crossing of

Southern tracks and Atlantic Coast Line tracks(CSX,
ATL, Seaboard?). I believe it was spring of 58, but
possibly '59. Mid morining. Mom was cleaning the 2nd

> >floor windows and called me to see a STEAM ENGINE

> >coming north into Alexandria. I missed actually

> seeing the engine, but saw the smoke rising from the

> trees. As a Steam engine was by that time an unusual

> event, I was wondering If anybody had any idea what

engine it was? It almost HAD to be a Norfolk and
Western K or J, and pulling one of the Southern
trains. 

> > 

> >Mark Lindsey



> >NW-Mailing-List at nwhs.org

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 ------------------------------

>

> I'm not an expert on the geography and wasn't even

> born then, but my bet would be on the "honorary

steam engine" -- an Alco diesel.

> 

> Andre Jackson and/or Lisa Burrows

> Life is short; update your anti-virus software

> ----- Original Message ----- 

> From: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

> To: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

> Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 9:50 AM

> Subject: Re: Steam in Alexandria in 1958-59?

> 

> 

> > Gee Bob...

> >

> > I dunno.  I started Grade school in '61, so I

> wouldn't be home. It was mid morning (9-11am) as I

remember. I was after '56, because I was just too
young. That makes it '57 thru  '59. It was most likely
Spring (70% chance) as my mom was doing spring house
cleaning, and at the time she noticed it and called to
me, she was cleaning the outsides of the 2nd floor
windows. We lived less than 1/2 mile from the RF&P/SRR
overpass.

> >

> > could their be any records of SOUTHERN passenger

> trains that, because  of a breakdown, been pulled by

either a J or K??  Maybe even from Petersburg, Bristol
or somewhere north of where N&W turned over the trains
to SRR power?

> >

> > Their is an 'outside' chance that it MIGHT have

> been the General. When during the year might it have

arrived?

> >

> >

> > Mark Lindsey

> >

> > On Dec 9, 2007, at 9:22 AM, NW Mailing List wrote:

> >

> > Mark, Ed and all:

> >

> > According to Lloyd Stagner in his last of Steam

> > articles, the final C&O steam run was I think in

> WV in January 1957.

> >

> > As for Reading and their famous T-1's, there was a

visitation to the area from one of these but that
was not until mid-August 1964 I think and was part of
a Philadelphia-Washington excursion. They tended to
stay on or near home rails for the most part and the
Reading Rambles were run from 1959-1964 when they
ceased.

As an addendum, the General also visited the DC area
in 1963 as well as 1962, the major difference being
that from what I have discerned in went no further
north than Alexandria in 1963 as opposed to staying at
Washington Union Station and the Navy Yard the
previous year. If we remember, 1962 was the 100th
Anniversary of the Andrews' Raid on the old Western &
Atlantic RR.

I know that the St. Elizabeth's engine, the 0-4-0
Oil-burning Porter which now resides at the Baltimore
& Ohio RR Museum in Baltimore, was active on the other
side of the River until the latter 1960's. I
personally remember seeing this in operation chugging
its' way up hill with a car or two of coal, while I
was stuck in traffic on nearby South Capitol Street in
the morning rush hour. This was in the 1965-1967
period. I don't think this engine would have strayed
over to south of Pot Yard as you describe but that is
a slim possibility, which also brings up the fireless
cooker or two which might have been in use at either
the Alexandria Power Plant or down on the RF&P near
Cherry Hill. Maybe even the old Buzzard's Point Pepco
plant had a fireless cooker as well?

> >

Maybe even a real smokey Alco?

I can't figure which, what or if any steam engine
would have been in the region in that period.
Something like that would surely have attracted
attention and other reports would have surfaced
before this time.

> >

Might it have been in 1962 when W&A "The General" came
to town?

> >

> > Bob Cohen

> >

> >

> >> Mark,

> >>

> >> I don't believe C&O or Sourthern was operating

> any steam locomotives as late as 1957. Does any one

remember when Reading began their rambles behind
their 4-8-4 and whether that ever strayed to foreign
roads?

> >>

> >> Sam Putney

> >>

> >>  ----- Original Message -----

> >>  From: NW Mailing List

> >>  To: NW Mailing List

> >>  Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 9:48 AM

> >>  Subject: Re: Classic Calendar faux pas?

> >>

> >>

> >>  Thanks Ed King!!

> >>

> >>

> > D'Oh! RF&P. I totally forgot about them!!

> (Senility is transparent to the user)

> >

> > So would C&O have run a steam engine into

> Alexandria after 1957? I seem to remember a story

about a SRR passenger train being brought into
Alexandria because the Diesels died on the road.
Possibly more of that senility thing though ....

> >>

> >>  Mark Lindsey




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