From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org  Mon Jul 27 12:06:56 2009
From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (NW Mailing List)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 12:06:56 -0400
Subject: "Minimum radius" of an M class
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1248710407.89596.nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org>
References: <mailman.3.1248710407.89596.nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org>
Message-ID: <58F4D17F-6F80-4829-AADD-FC02C797F8FB@oscalemag.com>

Does anyone know offhand the minimum degree of curvature a 4-8-0 was  
designed to negotiate?
Thanks
Joe Giannovario
O Scale Trains Magazine

From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org  Mon Jul 27 16:05:44 2009
From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (NW Mailing List)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:05:44 -0400
Subject: "Minimum radius" of an M class
References: <mailman.3.1248710407.89596.nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org>
	<58F4D17F-6F80-4829-AADD-FC02C797F8FB@oscalemag.com>
Message-ID: <D19550934F904BDD90339CDBFD79B53D@lewisdl0ls5whv>

Data No.I booklet dated 8-21-51 states "maximum curvature for operating at 
low speed in road service" is17 degrees for the K1, K2, K2a and J classes; 
20 degrees for all other classes.

Do not have information for what they were designed for.

Bud Jeffries

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
To: <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 12:06 PM
Subject: "Minimum radius" of an M class


> Does anyone know offhand the minimum degree of curvature a 4-8-0 was 
> designed to negotiate?
> Thanks
> Joe Giannovario
> O Scale Trains Magazine
> ________________________________________
> NW-Mailing-List at nwhs.org
> To change your subscription go to
> http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-mailing-list
> Browse the NW-Mailing-List archives at
> http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-mailing-list/
> 



From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org  Mon Jul 27 17:27:22 2009
From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (NW Mailing List)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 17:27:22 -0400
Subject: "Minimum radius" of an M class
References: <mailman.3.1248710407.89596.nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org>
	<58F4D17F-6F80-4829-AADD-FC02C797F8FB@oscalemag.com>
Message-ID: <ABE6A3E6841646B0A66C4D571B92DE60@DellVostro>

 N&W Data Book No. I, Office of Gen'l. Supt. Motive Power, Roanoke, 
Virginia, D-40000 and D40001, Rev. 5-19-53, Page I-19, "Maxium Curve for 
Operating at Low Speeds in Road Service,"  K1, K2, K2a, J: 17-degrees.  All 
Others:  20-degrees.

Gordon Hamilton

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
To: <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 12:06 PM
Subject: "Minimum radius" of an M class


> Does anyone know offhand the minimum degree of curvature a 4-8-0 was
> designed to negotiate?
> Thanks
> Joe Giannovario
> O Scale Trains Magazine
> ________________________________________
> NW-Mailing-List at nwhs.org
> To change your subscription go to
> http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-mailing-list
> Browse the NW-Mailing-List archives at
> http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-mailing-list/


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From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org  Mon Jul 27 21:37:04 2009
From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (NW Mailing List)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 21:37:04 -0400
Subject: N&W in 1909--Graham pump
Message-ID: <90C67A119C434BFEA619C029D6EEBE0B@DellVostro>

Bluefield Daily Telegraph
December 16, 1909

THE GRAHAM DAILY NEWS
------
New Engine and Pump

    The Norfolk and Western installed at their pumping station here yesterday a new engine and pump, making three large pumps in use which pump water from Bluestone to the railroad shops at Bluefield.  Some idea may be had as to the amount of Bluestone water that goes to Bluefield for the use of the railroad company when it is stated that these pumps have a capacity of more than two million gallons of water in twenty-four hours and they are kept going continually in order that the supply at Bluefield does not become exhausted.
------
Gordon Hamilton
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From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org  Mon Jul 27 22:14:35 2009
From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (NW Mailing List)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 22:14:35 -0400
Subject: Fw: N&W in 1909--Princeton
Message-ID: <D6739859B99B4BB98716688A5AA8C27B@DellVostro>

In my comments on the message below I should have pointed out to those who might not be familiar with Jedediah (Jed) Hotchkiss the significance of the Jed Hotchkiss 1880 and 1881 maps in the NWHS Archives.  Jed Hotchkiss was Stonewall Jackson's cartographer in the Civil War.  Among other things, historians attribute the success of Jackson's valley campaign to Hotchkiss' maps.

Gordon Hamilton
----- Original Message ----- 
From: NW Mailing List 
To: 4VGN Ry Yahoo Group ; 3N&W Mailing List 
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 3:39 PM
Subject: N&W in 1909--Princeton


Bluefield Daily Telegraph
December 14, 1909

MAY ENTER PRINCETON
------
Norfolk and Western Likely to Touch One of Important Points on Virginian

    Roanoke Times:  Everyone concerned with the industrial business of the Princeton section of the states of Virginia and West Virginia has for a year now predicted that the Norfolk and Western, by reason of the building of the Virginian railway on a low grade, would of necessity be forced to build the original route through Princeton by way of the Stinson Gap at the head of Rocky Hollow to the mouth of Widemouth.  The Norfolk and Western has never abandoned this route, and it is now rumored that it now intends to build this line.  Whether this will be done cannot now be stated, but the fact that there are engineers on this line between Stinson Gap and Princeton and between Princeton and Sand Lick adds much to the rumor.
    The supposition that the Virginia [sic] could extend a line from Princeton to Bluefield is without foundation.  The Virginian will go to Pocahontas, tap the upper coal fields and bring the product of their mines through Princeton as the shortest route to the seaboard and the easiest grades.
------
[It is interesting that this article states, "The Norfolk and Western has never abandoned this route."  None of the NWHS Archives' three 1890 and 1891 Jed Hotchkiss  maps of proposed railroad lines into the "Great Flat Top Coal Fields"  shows a line through Princeton although one 1890 map shows that some elevations were taken near Princeton and also Sand Lick Church.  Does anyone know of any other evidence that the N&W proposed to reach the coal fields by way of Princeton.  Incidentally, Sand Lick flows into the Bluestone River from the east with its mouth just north of the mouths of Crane Creek, Flipping Creek and Simmons Creek, which all flow into the river from the west.]

Gordon Hamilton



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From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org  Tue Jul 28 17:34:14 2009
From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (NW Mailing List)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:34:14 -0400
Subject: Jedediah Hotchkiss
Message-ID: <540e48700907281434i76d3038fx3b860cc2a4feafb7@mail.gmail.com>

Gordon:

You are so right when you attribute Jackson's success to Hotchkiss
during the "Late Unpleasantness" and that is an understatement to say
the least. Little know or at least long-forgotten was the fact that he
was involved in a number of railroad projects in his beloved
Shenandoah Valley after said War and in other areas as well.

Among the projects he was involved were the WCC&St.L in the early
1870's along with some of the Valley RR, I think some of the C&O west
of Staunton and what became the Fredericksburg & Orange RR. I am going
from memory on these but they are just a few.

Bob Cohen

He lived a long and enriched life and was truly missed when he died I
think it was in the late 1890's

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 22:14:35 -0400
From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Subject: N&W in 1909--Princeton

In my comments on the message below I should have pointed out to those
who might not be familiar with Jedediah (Jed) Hotchkiss the
significance of the Jed Hotchkiss 1880 and 1881 maps in the NWHS
Archives. Jed Hotchkiss was Stonewall Jackson's cartographer in the
Civil War. Among other things, historians attribute the success of
Jackson's valley campaign directly to him.


Bluefield Daily Telegraph
December 14, 1909

MAY ENTER PRINCETON
 ------
Norfolk and Western Likely to Touch One of Important Points on Virginian
Roanoke Times: ?Everyone concerned with the industrial business of the
Princeton section of the states of Virginia and West Virginia has for
a year now predicted that the Norfolk and Western, by reason of the
building of the Virginian railway on a low grade, would of necessity
be forced to build the original route through Princeton by way of the
Stinson Gap at the head of Rocky Hollow to the mouth of Widemouth. The
Norfolk and Western has never abandoned this route, and it is now
rumored that it now intends to build this line.?Whether this will be
done cannot now be stated, but the fact that there are engineers on
this line between Stinson Gap and Princeton and between Princeton and
Sand Lick adds much to the rumor.

The supposition that the Virginia [sic] could extend a line from
Princeton to Bluefield is without foundation.?The Virginian will go to
Pocahontas, tap the upper coal fields and bring the product of their
mines through Princeton as the shortest route to the seaboard and the
easiest grades.
------
[It is interesting that this article states, "The Norfolk and Western
has never abandoned this route." None of the NWHS Archives' three 1890
and 1891 Jed Hotchkiss maps of proposed railroad lines into the "Great
Flat Top Coal Fields" shows a line through Princeton although one 1890
map shows that some elevations were taken near Princeton and also Sand
Lick Church. Does anyone know of any other evidence that the N&W
proposed to reach the coal fields by way of Princeton. Incidentally,
Sand Lick flows into the Bluestone River from the east with its mouth
just north of the mouths of Crane Creek, Flipping Creek and Simmons
Creek, which all flow into the river from the west.]

Gordon Hamilton

From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org  Tue Jul 28 20:36:55 2009
From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (NW Mailing List)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 20:36:55 -0400
Subject: New Traffic through Jonesborough TN - Crescent Line
Message-ID: <63671FBEFAE3419CAE95CC0F040D835A@NEWDELL>

This morning July 28, about nine am an inspection train went through
Jonesborough TN headed west.  The last car had a full glass pane for
observing the track as they went west.

Chatter on the scanner was different today, more information was given to
each train, where they would be waiting,  and the time of waits.  Can't
recall the exact data but it was much more than any other day for the last
two years.

This evening about 7 pm a different train than usual went west.  98 %
trailers on flat cars.  And a couple of 40 foot boxes.  Half of the trailers
were marked with "UPS".  We have never seen a train of almost all trailers
on flat cars.

Most of the trailers were set on cars only good for trailers.  They had
slots for the wheels and a fifth wheel for holding the trailer to the car.

Does anyone have any information as to just what is going on?

Pete 

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From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org  Tue Jul 28 21:57:11 2009
From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (NW Mailing List)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 21:57:11 -0400
Subject: Virginian in 1909--Long train
Message-ID: <03C78FA3D06F4D049568E5125C476482@DellVostro>

Bluefield Daily Telegraph
December 18, 1909

TRAIN MILE LONG
------
Virginian Railway Hauls 120 Hoppers Each Carrying Fifty Tons of Coal

    Roanoke World:  The Virginian railway broke all known records today by sending a loaded train one mile and six feet in length to the east.
    The train was made up of 120 steel hoppers, forty-four feet in length and the same height* each loaded with fifty tons of coal.
    The coal is valued at $18,000.
    The train was made up here, and left for the east at 8:15 a.m.
    While it was not generally known, many people were attracted to the depot to see the longest loaded train in the world** pull out for the coast.
    It is understood that the train was made up at this time in view of the fact that it will pass officials of  the road who are coming to Roanoke tonight.  Among the officials who will be here will be H. H. Rogers, Jr.; President Broughton; General Manager Raymond DuPuy, and Assistant General Manager H. P. Reigert.
------

[*I presume that the reporter meant that each hopper was the same height, not that the hoppers were forty-four feet in height!  **But, stay tuned for a subsequent article on this matter.]

Gordon Hamilton
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From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org  Wed Jul 29 16:54:34 2009
From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (NW Mailing List)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:54:34 -0400
Subject: New Traffic through Jonesborough TN - Crescent Line
Message-ID: <4A70B70A.2050004@vt.edu>

Pete,

I heard Roanoke tell track maintenance that 25N westbound (the daily
auto-rack train) would be coming through so was also surprised to see
all the UPS trailers on flatcars when it went by 396.8 as seen in this
photo.

Mike Pierry, Jr.

[Moderator]
See images at following:
http://nwhs.org/wiki/tiki-browse_image.php?imageId=49

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 8:36 PM, NW Mailing List
<nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:

     This morning July 28, about nine am an inspection train went
through Jonesborough TN headed west.  The last car had a full glass pane
for observing the track as they went west.

     Chatter on the scanner was different today, more information was
given to each train, where they would be waiting,  and the time of
waits.  Can?t recall the exact data but it was much more than any other
day for the last two years.

     This evening about 7 pm a different train than usual went west.  98
% trailers on flat cars.  And a couple of 40 foot boxes.  Half of the
trailers were marked with ?UPS?.  We have never seen a train of almost
all trailers on flat cars.

     Most of the trailers were set on cars only good for trailers.  They
had slots for the wheels and a fifth wheel for holding the trailer to
the car.

     Does anyone have any information as to just what is going on?

     Pete

     ________________________________________
     NW-Mailing-List at nwhs.org
     To change your subscription go to
     http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-mailing-list
     Browse the NW-Mailing-List archives at
     http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-mailing-list/



From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org  Wed Jul 29 17:58:07 2009
From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (NW Mailing List)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:58:07 -0400
Subject: New Traffic through Jonesborough TN - Crescent Line
In-Reply-To: <4A70B70A.2050004@vt.edu>
References: <4A70B70A.2050004@vt.edu>
Message-ID: <fa3c91530907291458y1bc15c70s5c2660c8749fdb07@mail.gmail.com>

That was the 25N?  Hmmm, interesting.  I remember the 217 was the
regular westbound pig train on the Pokey when I was up there last
year, and it had all the UPS pigs on it headed toward Columbus.  The
233 was also a westbound Pokey stack train, but of course they
couldn't "stack" the containers because of clearances, so it was a
bunch of single stacked well cars.  It was also headed via Columbus to
points west.

They may be trying a new routing for the UPS trains.  Last winter we
had both the 217 and the 233 come down the Bristol Line when the
Whitethorne and New River districts were plugged up with derailments.
I can remember the dispatcher telling me "No track time for you today
maintainer Blevins!"

I simply replied "Okay sir.  Thank you and OUT!"

Ben Blevins


On 7/29/09, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
> Pete,
>
> I heard Roanoke tell track maintenance that 25N westbound (the daily
> auto-rack train) would be coming through so was also surprised to see
> all the UPS trailers on flatcars when it went by 396.8 as seen in this
> photo.
>
> Mike Pierry, Jr.
>
> [Moderator]
> See images at following:
> http://nwhs.org/wiki/tiki-browse_image.php?imageId=49
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 8:36 PM, NW Mailing List
> <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
>
>      This morning July 28, about nine am an inspection train went
> through Jonesborough TN headed west.  The last car had a full glass pane
> for observing the track as they went west.
>
>      Chatter on the scanner was different today, more information was
> given to each train, where they would be waiting,  and the time of
> waits.  Can?t recall the exact data but it was much more than any other
> day for the last two years.
>
>      This evening about 7 pm a different train than usual went west.  98
> % trailers on flat cars.  And a couple of 40 foot boxes.  Half of the
> trailers were marked with ?UPS?.  We have never seen a train of almost
> all trailers on flat cars.
>
>      Most of the trailers were set on cars only good for trailers.  They
> had slots for the wheels and a fifth wheel for holding the trailer to
> the car.
>
>      Does anyone have any information as to just what is going on?
>
>      Pete
>
>      ________________________________________
>      NW-Mailing-List at nwhs.org
>      To change your subscription go to
>      http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-mailing-list
>      Browse the NW-Mailing-List archives at
>      http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-mailing-list/
>
>
> ________________________________________
> NW-Mailing-List at nwhs.org
> To change your subscription go to
> http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-mailing-list
> Browse the NW-Mailing-List archives at
> http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-mailing-list/
>

From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org  Wed Jul 29 21:26:39 2009
From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (NW Mailing List)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 21:26:39 -0400
Subject: New Traffic through Jonesborough TN - Crescent Line
Message-ID: <4A70F6CF.1050104@vt.edu>

My son-in-law lives in Jonesborough, Tn -- but where does the Crescent Line 
run to and from?  Is it part of old V&SW?  Thanks,

Dale W. Diacont

> This morning July 28, about nine am an inspection train went through
> Jonesborough TN headed west.  The last car had a full glass pane for
> observing the track as they went west.
> 
> Chatter on the scanner was different today, more information was given to
> each train, where they would be waiting,  and the time of waits.  Can't
> recall the exact data but it was much more than any other day for the last
> two years.
> 
> This evening about 7 pm a different train than usual went west.  98 %
> trailers on flat cars.  And a couple of 40 foot boxes.  Half of the trailers
> were marked with "UPS".  We have never seen a train of almost all trailers
> on flat cars.
> 
> Most of the trailers were set on cars only good for trailers.  They had
> slots for the wheels and a fifth wheel for holding the trailer to the car.
> 
> Does anyone have any information as to just what is going on?
> 
> Pete 


From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org  Thu Jul 30 07:11:29 2009
From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (NW Mailing List)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 07:11:29 -0400
Subject: "Taking Twenty" with the Virginian Brethren
Message-ID: <4A717FE1.8040008@vt.edu>

Last night I had the pleasure of "Takin' Twenty" with nine of the Brethren 
and Friends of the Virginian Railway. Attending for the first time were 
Gibson Davis and Tom Guilliams. Gibson is the grandson of Malcomb Vaughn, 
who was a machinist on the Virginian Railway in Victoria and Roanoke. "Gib" 
attended the N&WHS Convention in Roanoke this year and accepted my 
invitation to "Take Twenty" with the Brethren. He was also a good friend of 
Harry Dixon, a well-known N&W Storekeeper in Roanoke who lost an arm in 
France just after landing on Omaha Beach on D-Day. I worked with Harry at 
Roanoke Shops and he could do more work with one arm than most could do 
with two. Tom Guilliams retired from NS as a yard engineer and worked with 
Ruf and Raymond on the "W side" after the merger.

Glen McLain, retired VGN clerk and designated joke man for the sessions, 
brought a great photo of a VGN tender used with the AGs that had a 7 axles 
(one 4 axle truck and one 3 axle truck). These tenders carried 26,500 
gallons of water. We figured this means they carried about 90 tons of water 
and 25 tons of coal....about the same load as a G4 gon! This prompted Ruf 
to tell about "14428". This was the maximum tonnage that two Fairbanks 
Morse diesel locomotives could pull out of Roanoke going east. However, the 
AG class 2-6-6-6 steam locomotives were limited to 175 hoppers, "regardless 
of tonnage". He also said that Tidewater coal was not weighed in Roanoke 
but at Sewalls Point. He said that "commercial-non Tidewater" coal was 
weighed in Princeton until 1940 and in Roanoke after 1940. Ruf said that 
VGN conductor Joe Booth once stated that with one of those 175 car coal 
trains and one AG, "if a sparrow lit on the cab, we would stall".

I told the Brethren about NS CEO Wick Moorman's speech at the Governor's 
Conference last week in Biloxi, Mississippi where he said "freight volumns 
in this country are projected to grow 88% by 2035". Also passed around was 
Gordon Hamilton's reprint of the December 18, 1909 "Bluefield Daily 
Telegraph" (from "Roanoke World") about the record mile long coal train 
that VGN pulled out of Roanoke. The train had 120 steel 50-ton hoppers and 
"while it was not generally known, many people were attracted to the depot 
to see the longest loaded train in the world".

The DVDs shown were taken last Thursday and Friday when my grandson Hunter 
and I "camped out" (on private property with permission) at the Yateman 
Viaduct. It is west of Wabun and east of Kumis on the VGN; west of Glenvar 
and east of Singer on the N&W where the VGN crossed over the N&W. We tried 
to get a train on the bridge (on the old VGN) with one going under the 
bridge on the old N&W. We filmed 13 trains but could not get the shot of 
two as planned. West of this bridge, the VGN was north of the N&W and east 
of this bridge, VGN was south of N&W. One of the DVDs showed for sure how 
much clearance is available for the double stack trains. These videos 
prompted Tom Guilliams to tell about being involved in a famous N&W wreck 
where he, as yard engineer, went to get a "hogged" train near Riverside, 
just west of Yateman Viaduct. After passing a dragging equipment detector 
at Wabun and not getting a "clear" on the radio, a road foreman, who was 
running the locomotive at the time, stopped the train in Salem. While 
stopped, the train was "angle cocked" and cut in two. When the train got to 
Norwich, the rear that was cut off and bottled, caught up and crashed back 
into the train.

The "camp-out" at the Yateman Viaduct in July reminds me of a famous quote 
of New York Yankee great Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra: "It ain't the heat, 
it's the humility".

Time to pull the pin on this one!

Departing Now from V248,

Skip Salmon





=============

From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org  Thu Jul 30 20:01:12 2009
From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (NW Mailing List)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 00:01:12 +0000
Subject: New Traffic through Jonesborough TN - Crescent Line
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1248969608.28305.nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org>
References: <mailman.5.1248969608.28305.nw-mailing-list@nwhs.org>
Message-ID: <BAY143-W24D47AE64202EC0796DABED1100@phx.gbl>


That TOFC train was 25W, Balitmore to Memphis.  Not known if it will be a regular.  
Not entirely related, but another spot symbol has been 710, westbound loaded coal train using system cars, kept at 40-60 cars account of no pushers (the last time westbound coal ran on the Bristol line was the M89s of the mid-90s, those ran with pushers all the way to Bulls Gap)

Robb FisherRFDI





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From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org  Thu Jul 30 19:54:47 2009
From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (NW Mailing List)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 18:54:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Thank you
Message-ID: <864351701.2054136.1248998088074.JavaMail.root@vms227.mailsrvcs.net>

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From nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org  Sat Aug  1 16:23:33 2009
From: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org (NW Mailing List)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 16:23:33 -0400
Subject: Bluefield Daily Telegraph articles
Message-ID: <20090801162333.5FUQ3.14059.imail@eastrmwml41>

As explanation for the recent absence of postings of N&W and VGN articles from the 1909 and 1910 Bluefield newspaper,  my new Dell computer locked up this past Wednesday evening and it looks as though it will be next week before Dell's on-site service can replace the motherboard.  I'll resume the postings after that.

Gordon Hamilton