Jackie Robinson Special-N&W?

[NW Mailing List]

Ken and Harry:

Thanks for posts re Jackie Robinson\N&W Specials.

I am overseas, working on projects here, and will reply upon return to
the US in December.  

Go well.  Frank


On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:50:03 -0400, NW Mailing List
<nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:

> On Jul 8, 2010, at 6:11 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:

> I  have been following the rebroadcast of PBS' American Experience/

> Ken Burns Baseball. In the most recent segment featuring the Jackie

> Robinson story, fleeting MENTION IS MADE OF THE "JACKIE ROBINSON

> SPECIAL", a train running in the 1947 season from Norfolk to

> Cincinnati for Robinson fans delirious over JACKIE'S HAVING BEEN

> SIGNED BY THE BROOKLYN DODGERS THAT YEAR, THE FIRST AFRICAN-AMERICAN

> ADMITTED TO MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL. YEARS BEFORE IN THE NEGRO LEAGUES

> JACKIE HAD PLAYED ON THE NORFOLK TEAM. THE "SPECIAL" RAN WHEN THE

> DODGERS PLAYED AT CINCINNATI.

> 

> SOUNDS LIKE THE RAIL PROTAGONIST WAS THE N&W, END TO END. CAN ANYONE

> CONFIRM?

> 

> HAS THE STORY EVER APPEARED IN THE ARROW? IF NOT, ISN'T IT TIME THAT

> IT DID?

> 

> I'D BE GLAD TO WORK ON RECOVERING THE STORY, OR COLLABORATE WITH

> OTHERS. ANYONE KNOW WHERE DETAILS MIGHT BE UNCOVERED? PERHAPS NEWS

> STORIES IN THE NORFOLK AND CINCINNATI NEWSPAPERS, FOR A START? ANY

> NORFOLK AND CINCINNATI PEOPLE CARE TO INQUIRE?

> 

> I GOOGLED WHAT I COULD, AND FOUND--AGAIN, JUST A PASSING REFERENCE--A

> NOTE (P. 196) IN JULES TYGIEL'S "BASEBALL'S GREAT EXPERIMENT--JACKIE

> ROBINSON AND HIS LEGACY", 1997 (REVISED EDITION), PRINTED ON OCCASION

> OF THE 50TH ANNIVERSARY OF ROBINSON'S BREAKING THE COLOR BARRIER IN

> THE NATIONAL SPORT.

> 

> SO ANYONE WITH INFO OR POINTERS FOR RESEARCH, DO SPEAK UP!

> 

> FRANK GIBSON

> 

> Frank

> 

> Since I've seen no response to your inquiry of now 2 months ago, I

> thought you might benefit from the following. I suspect the lack of

> response shows a general lack of knowledge or information on the

> specific question. So I thought I'd pass on my thoughts. You may have

> to do some serious detective work, so I did some of the research, as

> it did kind of intrigue me. I started this a long time ago, but did

> not send it like I thought, so my apologies for the overlong

> dissertation. As you will see, this is not going to be an easy answer

> question. I've done some of the research and gone into some detail

> here. Having been involved in planning of long distance excursion

> trains in the modern era, I feel some of that experience factors in.

> 

> While the story itself may be interesting, it sounds that it might

> simply be a short story, not much more. This is, so far, what I

> consider anecdotal history, or nothing to document it other than word

> of mouth. I do not have the book you referenced, so I can't really

> speak to the author's source, but it may indeed have been anecdotal as

> well. 

> 

> I've done a good bit of the digging for you, after you read the

> following, if you still think there might be a story you will want to

> pursue further it will probably take some time. 

> 

> In general, anecdotal history, is simply history passed down through

> time, just because it sounds like it should be the case, in some

> people's mind, it must have been, but reality can often be totally

> different. A number of publishers are less than concerned with

> accuracy, their interest is in getting a product to market, facts and

> correct information are not important. 

> 

> I know nothing about the book you cited, and I'm not really

> interested enough to purchase a copy of the book cited to check it

> out, and none of the local libraries have it.

> 

> Rather than spend weeks searching through the Norfolk newspapers

> which may yield nothing. First you should have a look at the reality

> and speculate to what might have been done at the time. Some of my

> thoughts are:

> 

> If this special did run, it could have been either the C&O or the

> N&W, both served the tidewater area and Cincinnati. The C&O served

> Norfolk, while technically ending at Newport News, the C&O did have a

> Norfolk station at one time which was only connected via ferry or

> later a bus. The C&O would serve a slightly larger population base

> along the way, however.

> 

> Passenger specials were common in the steam era and on up until the

> mid 1960s. I doubt you are going to find anyone who might have been

> involved in the planning, or scheduling of any such train, as we are

> now talking 63 years ago, at least that might remember any specifics.

> I'm not aware of the existence of any company files on excursion

> trains from that era, as most of the passenger department files seemed

> to have been tossed out after the end of service in 1971.

> 

> The N&W regularly ran baseball specials to Cincinnati, usually from

> Bluefield or Williamson and west to Cincinnati, the C&O ran specials

> as well, most running from Charleston or Huntington, but on at least

> one occasion from Clifton Forge. Cincinnati was a great destination

> for both roads, as the original Crosley Field was within reasonable

> walking distance of Cincinnati Union Terminal. In fact, the June 1947

> N&W Magazine had a feature story on the first post war excursion

> train, a baseball special from Bluefield to Cincinnati, consisting of

> sixteen coaches and a single diner. The article did not give a full

> schedule unfortunately. 

> 

> This special was for a doubleheader with the Boston Braves on Sunday,

> May 18, 1947. According the article, the train left Bluefield at 9:30

> pm on the 17th with 103 passengers on board, added 127 at Welch, 131

> at Williamson, 34 at Kenova and finally 83 at Portsmouth. Between

> Bluefield and Portsmouth, the special stopped at most of the local

> stops along the way adding passengers at every place, adding an

> additional 215 enroute at the local stops. The train finally arrived

> at Cincinnati with a full load of 693 passengers. Running, essentially

> as a local from Bluefield to Portsmouth, the schedule was slow working

> passengers at every stop. That is an average of 57.75 riders per

> coach, pretty efficient transportation. Riders came from all around

> the region according to the article, Pocahontas, Richlands, Bossevain,

> etc. etc. I'd hazard a guess that arrival in Cincinnati was somewhere

> around 11 am. 

> 

> Not everyone on board went to the games, it was reported that some

> went to visit relatives, others went to the zoo. Regardless, as you

> can see, baseball was a very popular sport in the coal country. These

> specials were an easy way to generate some additional passenger

> business with just a little extra effort. 1947 was still a fairly busy

> passenger year after the war.

> 

> By the way, the Reds split the doubleheader with the Braves. Some

> 24,432 fans attended. From the photo in the N&W Magazine, it was

> obviously a day game.

> 

> According to the schedule (Baseball Almanac) I found, Brooklyn played

> at Cincinnati on three different occasions during the 1947 season: 

> 

> Tuesday, 05-13-1947

> Wednesday, 05-14-1947

> 

> Saturday, 06-21-1947

> Sunday, 06-22-1947, Double Header

> 

> Sunday, 09-14-1947 Double Header

> Tuesday, 09-16-1947

> 

> The most logical assumptions would be the two doubleheaders, the

> first on Sunday, June 22, or second September 14. Cincinnati was the

> first place to install lights for night play, playing the first game

> under the lights in 1935. So I do not know if these games were day or

> night, it certainly seems likely that the both double headers were day

> games, as it was a Sunday.

> 

> I went through the entire year of 1947 N&W Magazines, and could find

> no mention of any Jackie Robinson Special. I was not surprised by

> that, as I said, excursions were fairly common at the time and only

> occasionally when it was unusual or really special, were they reported

> in the Magazine.

> 

> Now as far as a train ride from Norfolk to Cincinnati and return, it

> is a long ride, over 600 miles by rail.

> By my April 1947 timetable, No. 3, the Pocahontas left Norfolk at

> 2:40 pm with arrival in Cincinnati at 8:10 am, running time of 17

> hours and 50 minutes.

> The Powhatan Arrow, No. 25 departed at 7:30 am, arrival at 11 pm,

> running time of 15 hours, 10 minutes.

> No. 15, The Cavalier, leaving Norfolk at 11 pm, arrival at Cincinnati

> 7:50 pm, running time of 20 hours and 50 minutes. 

> 

> No. 3 and No. 15 both were worked with mail and express in between

> points, cutting cars in and out, slowing the schedule. The Arrow was a

> shorter train, 6-8 cars (at that time) with much more limited stops

> and no mail and express or sleepers. Mostly lightweight equipment as

> well. But if this alleged special was like the other baseball special

> mentioned above, it did a lot of local stopping. Since it was likely

> to be a coach train with a diner, it would likely have been 16 of the

> heavyweight, 1600 series PG coaches and a De diner. 

> 

> With a heavier train, and many local stops, the special would

> certainly not be able to make the Arrow's schedule.

> 

> So, with averaging out the time, lets give a special train a running

> time somewhere between the Pocahontas and the Cavalier, so lets call

> it about 19.5 hours running time, each way. That would include time

> for local rider handling, plus time to add or remove a diner in

> Roanoke. Lets add an hour in Cincinnati for time to get to the game. I

> don't know what time of day the games were scheduled for, but usually

> today it is around 2 PM. Since you really can't cut the schedule too

> close due to possible delays, even with "Precision Transportation" you

> better plan on arrival in Cincinnati at least 3 hours ahead of

> schedule, so the arrival is 11 AM so, now you have to back time from

> Norfolk to leave at 4:30 pm the day before. Then you have to have some

> time to allow for extra innings games, so you might get back and

> loaded to roll from Union Station at 7 or so, which means you are back

> into Norfolk at somewhere around 2 the next afternoon. That is a

> really long trip, and without sleepers, a VERY long coach ride

> overnight.

> 

> So it seems most likely it might be an overnight outing, complicating

> the arrangements, with hotels, which may well easily eliminate the

> railroad's involvement. 

> 

> The C&O did not have a better schedule, with connections to ride No.

> 1, The George Washington would have a total time of about 18 hours and

> 20 minutes, No. 3 the FFV was a bit slower with a total time of about

> 19 hours and 50 minutes. Now bear in mind, these were connections from

> Newport News to the mainline at Charlottesville, so these are not

> straight running times. I did not have handy a 1947 C&O timetable, so

> those times may be a bit off. But regardless, I'd say that any C&O

> trip would easily be somewhat longer than the N&W.

> 

> Now on to the facts of the baseball side, at least according to what

> I have found, the Norfolk Tars were a New York Yankee farm team in

> 1944-1946, but they played in the Piedmont league. To tie this back to

> the railroad, Roanoke also fielded a team, the Roanoke Red Sox in the

> Piedmont League at that time. Jackie played only 45 games in the negro

> leagues, that was for the Kansas City Monarchs in 1945. He had been in

> the US Army prior to that. In 1946, he was signed to the Brooklyn

> Dodgers and assigned to their farm team in Montreal. Norfolk did not

> have a team in the International League in 1946. Since baseball (and

> the south) was still widely segregated, I sort of doubt that anything

> other than an exhibition game may have been played in the Norfolk area

> which would likely have had to have been the Kansas City Monarchs

> against some other team (I'd say most likely another black team), as

> apparently it was a popular area for baseball. Where they would play,

> I'm not certain. 

> 

> I'd be curious to know why Jackie Robinson would have had any greater

> following in the Norfolk area than other places, since he was not from

> that area and, at least from what I've seen, did appear to play there.

> 

> Now, as far as how to find information on any special train. That is

> going to require some real time and effort, and even with that, you

> may or may not find anything. The N&W and others usually printed up

> flyers that would be hung at various stations along the way for

> special trains. By no means do I have a really good collection of

> those flyers, I've seen ones for other baseball specials, including

> one to see Babe Ruth play in an exhibition game. But not one in this

> specific case. 

> 

> In my opinion, this trip does not seem to be a really likely

> scenario, mainly due to the list of things above. I'm not saying it

> didn't, I'd be glad to see some evidence that it did, I just think it

> will be difficult at best, possibly even next to impossible to find if

> it was real, or just anecdotal history. If I was planning on

> researching this, I'd start by searching the Norfolk newspaper,

> looking for ads for a trip in April and May or even early June, or

> August and September of 1947. Unfortunately, to my searching, the

> Norfolk, Roanoke, Lynchburg or Cincinnati papers are not available

> online that I can find. It might have been mentioned in the CIncinnati

> paper after the fact. Other places I'd try would be the Lynchburg and

> Roanoke papers, but I just feel like it will be chasing a ghost, that

> may prove to find nothing. There is absolutely no guarantee of the

> trip being advertised in the paper either, advertising costs money,

> and will cut into the potential profits, the N&W seems to have rarely

> advertised for such specific things, at least by this time period.

> 

> Best

> Ken Miller