Class M's, Mollies, class names and the like

[NW Mailing List]

Thanks, Frank.

In analyzing all the evidence about the “mollie” thing, it seems that a couple of folks know for sure they were called that.  Several others, including some who worked in the same locations, never heard it.

I think if it could be investigated today, we’d find the term used in a couple of specific locations, and maybe find it narrowed down to specific people.  Certainly its use was not universal enough to find its way into the literature in any significant way, unlike the term “Emma” for the L&N Berkshires, which has been legitimized by a reputable L&N historian (Charles Castner) who wrote a comprehensive history of the class published in a magazine of international circulation whose Editor was familiar with the locomotives and also knew the term.

Unsuperheated Ms used on the Abingdon Branch had other, unprintable names, but that’s an even more obscure footnote in the history of the class than the term “mollie”.  

Those of you who heard the term back when steam was still king are undoubtedly correct.  Those who never heard it are correct, too.

Oh, and Frank – how about the term “squareheads” as applied to the VGN siderod electrics?  I heard the term from VGN employees . . .

EdKing

From: NW Mailing List 
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 2:07 AM
To: NW Mailing List 
Subject: Re: Class M's, Mollies, class names and the like

Dave and Ed are, of course, correct.  Years ago I worked up a clinic that included all the "alternate" names for various wheel arrangements.  Over the years with feedback that list has grown.  I'm traveling and don't have the handout but I can put it up when I get home.  But the number of alternate names is more than most people think.  A 2-10 4 was a Colorado on the Burlington, the 4-10-2 was a Southern Pacific on the SP, but (guess this is not a surprise)an Overland on the UP.  I think there were at least 8 different names for the 4-8-4 (Greenbrier for example, and Dixie, Pocono, and Wyoming).  Not swearing to any of this.  And my other materials do show that the one and only 4-10-0 did have two names.

Now, re "Mollies", and similar nicknames.  Yes, we know that a lot of nicknames are railfan creations.  Tom Marshall, who is in a good position to know, told me that Virginian men never called the ELCs "bricks".  That was, as near as we can tell, an H. Reid (God rest his soul) creation.  And, if memory serves, I'm not sure he used that nickname, just said that they had the esthetics of a brick.  A few years ago, Vintage Rails (?) did an article on the C&O streamlined Hudson's, and referred to them as "yellow bellies".  That term was new to everyone I knew in COHS, and we haven't seen it anywhere else.  Might have been a term used in one shop, somewhere.  Just a thought.


Frank Bongiovanni




On Sep 11, 2013, at 3:02 PM, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:


  The confusion between the names of the 4-8-0 and 4-10-0 wheel arrangements is a fairly recent phenomenon.  For almost 100 years, the Whyte system used a standard list of names for each wheel arrangement. There was no duplication between the names.  Recently, due to progress or ignorance, we have two wheel arrangements with the same name, at least according to some sources.  How did this happen?

  The official name of the 4-8-0 wheel arrangement was 12-wheeler.  However, there was one Central Pacific 4-8-0 (no. 229) that had the name Mastodon, but this was not the name of the wheel arrangement. 

  The official name of the 4-10-0 wheel arrangement was Mastodon, but there was only one example and it was a Central Pacific locomotive named El Gobernador (no.237). 

  From this relatively simple historical situation, we now have a duplication that didn’t exist before. 

  Now let’s bring this a little closer to home.  How about those N&W Y-class 2-8-8-2 Chesapeakes?  Just go to
  http://www.steamlocomotive.com/chesapeake/
  and there they are, “2-8-8-2 Chesapeake Type Locomotives,” if you stop at the header.  To Wes Barris’ credit, the name is correctly applied /disclaimed in the text. Unfortunately I’ve seen Chesapeake used once in a while on discussion boards in reference to N&W.  Misinformation travels fast.....



  Dave Stephenson


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
  To: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 2:35 PM
  Subject: Class M's, Mollies, class names and the like


  Gentlemen:


  This a great discussion and when Jim added into the mix about the 2-8-2 wheel arrangement, I felt it was time to toss my hat into this ring.


  The various wheel arrangements while somewhat generic named were also given the better known ones for very specific reasons:


  The 2-8-0's were called Consolidations simply because the first order or large order was from a recent consolidation of railroad companies way back when .. the late 1860's or 1870's or so.


  The 2-8-2's were called Mikado's because the first order went to the Japanese Mikado I think it was in 1897.


  The first iconic order for the 4-6-2's went to MoPac, Missouri Pacific which named them Pacific type, I believe around 1904.


  The what became ever-popular Mountain named 4-8-2 went to the C&O for their mountain divisions in the coalfields and they named it accordingly.


  As for the 4-8-0's, not many roads had this wheel arrangement, with UP I think and the N&W being the primary users and it received the name Mastodon from who knows -- I've never read that one. They were always Class "M's" as Ed and Jim have reminded us and that probably the nickname Mollie probably got added later by parties now lost to history.


  The N&W's famous Class J -- what did the N&W call those: Northern or Class J? Same animal but local name. Kind of like trolley -- they were called trams, streetcars (both one and two words), along with a few other things as well as local names as well.


  Other wheel arrangements had been named similarly to the earlier ones mentioned.


  Even the little used 2-4-2 type got a name "Columbia" I am told came from its having been displayed at the World's Columbian Exposition in Chicago in 1892-1893. Of course this small hauler was quickly over-shadowed by larger power which rapidly eclipsed these little types.


  The 2-8-4's were named Berkshires as the Boston & Albany I think got the first, those from Lima and their new Super-Power concept which really took off. That was 1923-1925 or thereabouts.


  The 2-10--0's were called Decapods for their 10 drivers and some specific ones which had been designated or ordered by the Russian Govt and never delivered to the after WW1 Bolshevik's, became Russian Decapods.


  The 4-8-4's were first ordered by NP and became Northern's for most roads but they did have other names as well, Lackawanna called theirs Poconos, C&O called theirs Greenbriars and a number of others had names for theirs as well. The NC&StL couldn't call theirs after any northern company or name or anything from Yankee land, so theirs became something else more fitting to their Southern traditions.


  I had never heard of the L&N's "Big Emma's" being called anything other than that but I grew up with David P. Morgan and he called them that and not the M1's as referred within these fine pages so perhaps DPM was a bit guilt of that little change to historical reference.


  The 4-10-2's were called the SP type as they were the predominate user of that little used wheel arrangement, never minding their 3rd cylinder.


  The 4-12-2 was similarly called the UP type for the same reason as the SP, only the UP had that one, also with an inside 3rd cylinder.


  As NYC was the initial order-er for the 4-6-4 type, no surprise what these were named for us romantics -- the Hudson type. Oh, what a shame one of the Central's 4-6-4's was saved for us to ruminate over. However that is for another day.


  The 4-6-0's I have always seen called "ten-wheel" types.


  And I suspect the first 2-10-2's went to the AT&SF although can't recall details. The 2-10-4's were an outgrowth of the 2-10-2's as something larger was required for a specific type of work load.


  One last one -- 2-8-8-4 -- the first order for those went to was it NP or GN which needed this big hauler for out near the Yellowstone region and so with their humongous firebox to burn that stuff they had on their road which wasn't a whole lot better than improvised dirt (aka-lignite), the first of these went there, along with their name. Somewhere I saw a surmising that perhaps these would have been more powerful than the Allegheny or Big Boy's if they had put good grade coal in one, but alas, that answer awaits us all in that great roundhouse in the sky, someday.


  Bob Cohen



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