N&W Excursions of the 1950s

[NW Mailing List]

According to my notes, the NRHS excursion train on September 1, 1957, was 
handled by Class A 1239 from Roanoke to Bluefield.  From there Class K-1 114 
handled the train to Pocahontas, thence via the Bluestone Branch to Montcalm 
(MP B-8.6).  There Y-6b 2190 was added as a head-end helper to Matoaka (MP 
B-16), where it was cut off.  The 114 then took the train to Giatto (MP 
B-16.6), turned on the wye and returned to Matoaka.  The 2190 then coupled 
to the rear of the train and delivered it through the connection track to 
the Virginian.

The reason for using the 2190 for the delivery was that the N&W-Virginian 
connection track at Matoaka was on a steep grade,  About a year earlier, 
there had been an unpleasant experience, to say the least,  in trying to 
detour some passenger trains through the connection, and the operating 
people wanted to  be sure the excursion train had adequate power to make the 
move.  I plan to cover the details of that detour movement in a future issue 
of THE ARROW.

At the time, of course, no one knew that the 2190 eventually would be the 
last N&W steam locomotive to operate in regular road service.

Louis Newton

--------------------------------------------------
From: <nw-mailing-list-request at nwhs.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 6:54 AM
To: <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Subject: NW-Mailing-List Digest, Vol 99, Issue 45


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> Today's Topics:

>

>   1. Re: N&W PL to CPL conversions (was Please Put In the

>      Interlocking Images) (NW Mailing List)

>   2. Re: N&W signal route diagrams (NW Mailing List)

>   3. N&W signal route diagrams (NW Mailing List)

>   4. Re: NW-Mailing-List Digest, Vol 99, Issue 43 (NW Mailing List)

>   5. Signaling Issues (NW Mailing List)

>   6. Re: N&W excursions of the 1950's / Video shot length

>      (NW Mailing List)

>   7. Re: N&W excursions of the 1950s (NW Mailing List)

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Message: 1

> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 21:41:12 -0400

> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

> Subject: Re: N&W PL to CPL conversions (was Please Put In the

> Interlocking Images)

> To: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

> Message-ID:

> <CAFzcUkX20TAdHbR8Z7sKVQrJT2pNbRrshXSb8E=v6orHuHmErA at mail.gmail.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

>

> Well Harry,

>

> That train you mention had a favorable signal and the following switch

> stand would also have shown a favorable route if I understand it

> right.

>

> Supervisor Burnett and maintainer Kercher both observed that signal

> after the bond wires had been broken.  I think that should explain the

> Stop signal, or red signal as the maintainer described it.

>

> Am I right?

> Ben

>

>

> On 9/17/13, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:

>> Harry,

>>      After reading the account of the accident and the conclusion that

>> the switch was tampered with, I fail to see how this has anything to do

>> with signal indications.

>>

>> Jimmy Lisle

>>

>> "OK, Ben, this is a test.   On April 21, 1932, No. 4 Engine 133 passed

>> signal 5868 (this was in double track, ABS territory), entered the Union

>> (Ohio) middle track and turned over at an estimated speed of 50 MPH.

>> There were 2 deaths and four injuries.  When Supervisor of Signals

>> Burnett arrived, he stated that  signal 5868 at the west end of the 

>> middle

>> track displayed STOP.  So this was a failure of the engine crew to

>> comply with signal indication, right ?

>>

>>    Go to http://specialcollection.dotlibrary.dot.gov. then select the ICC

>> Railroad Accident Reports and look at the 1932 investigations.  It's

>> kinda interestingand there was a similar incident on the SP in 1939.

>>        Harry Bundy   "

>>

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 2

> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 21:50:57 -0400

> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

> Subject: Re: N&W signal route diagrams

> To: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

> Message-ID:

> <CAFzcUkXsF9b_T2zHdS0OKjBQxiEcYStuGepD33ztd2_SESSTfw at mail.gmail.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

>

> They actually do have a way to allow a train to pass a Stop signal.

> Either directly by dispatcher instructions and being governed

> accordingly by the operating rules, or by configuring the signal to

> display a Restricting.  The majority of controlled signals don't have

> that capability because it is just not necessary in most cases.

>

> Ben

>

>

> On 9/17/13, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:

>> On 9/17/2013 5:41 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:

>>>  I hear you, but I still have the question of why not?  It seems like

>>> this would add an unnecessary stop/delay in the case where one

>>> movement is following another in the same direction, on the same route

>>> through an interlocking.  Any answers, comments, speculation would be

>>> greatly appreciated.

>> Well, with that kind of thinking, why have any absolute stop signal

>> then? Why don't all traffic lights at intersections have flashing yellow

>> lights?  It is there because that is where they want you to STOP. It is

>> a/_control point_/! In the days before rock and roll, if this signal was

>> a STOP/and STAY, this is where you got off and called the dispatcher on

>> the phone box to receive further instructions. Did you ever think that

>> maybe the dispatcher has other plans for you and doesn't want you to

>> follow the train ahead?

>>

>> Jimmy Lisle

>>

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 3

> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 22:38:42 -0400

> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

> Subject: N&W signal route diagrams

> To: NW-Mailing-List at nwhs.org

> Message-ID: <20130917223842.89JD4.333102.imail at eastrmwml214>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

>

> This is where the question of the ages comes up.

>

> A horizontal indication on the top head with nothing on the bottom head is 

> an absolute stop.  It doesn't become a stop and proceed.  Why?  Like your 

> mama used to say "because I said so".  It's called out in the rule book as 

> "an improperly displayed signal will assume its most restrictive aspect".

>

> The question of the ages? Why?  This is the difference between N&W and 

> Pennsy signals.

>

> On the Pennsy each block signal had a lower marked lamp.  That makes it 

> more a permissive signal, stop & proceed.  If the lower marker is out it 

> looks like the absolute signal on the PRR stop & stay.  It looks like a 

> safer way to handle things to me but it uses up a lot more light bulbs to 

> put those markers on every intermediate signal.

>

> So if you go out and buy a lot of Pennsy signals you have to take all of 

> those lower markers off.

>

> Stoney

>

> Rick Stone

> NWHS Mem #1

>

> I was asking my self the question about the dark bottom on the signal

> with the red.

>

> It would be a stop indication no matter what, since we are at an

> interlocking (passing siding)

> I was interpreting how the green and reds are working.

>

> For an all clear the green only was lit on top, for a stop if the

> turnout was not thrown theoretically you could have Red/dark. But since

> you may want to indicate you have a turnout present, that may be the

> purpose of the signal, so you need red/red.

> For the circumstance a train in the main track of the siding, turnout

> not thrown, train behind gets the red/red. Lets say the train ahead is

> not moving, the 2nd train stops, the dispatcher throws the turnout and

> lets the 2nd train pass, it gets the red/yellow.

>

> -Lynn-

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 4

> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 23:06:48 -0400

> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

> Subject: Re: NW-Mailing-List Digest, Vol 99, Issue 43

> To: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

> Message-ID: <523918C8.5090705 at ntelos.net>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

>

> On 9/17/2013 10:24 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:

>> The issue was whether that lower red should be on or off,

>> in the case as the turnout it would be on because its an interlocking

>> signal.

> Lynn,

>     Let me try one more time.

> A control point signal can /_only_/ display five different aspects in

> combination with two horizontal red lights which are:

> 1.) Diverging Clear - two vertical yellow lights below

> 2.) Diverging Approach - two diagonal yellow lights at a 45 degree angle

> 3.) Diverging approach diverging - two flashing diagonal yellow lights

> at a 45 degree angle

> 4.) Restricting - two diagonal yellow lights at a 315 degree angle

> 5.) Stop - one red light below

>

> In case #1, 2 ,3 & 4, if/*_both_*/ bottom lights burn out or are

> obscured from vision, the signal aspect is to be considered as STOP,

> regardless of what the previous signal aspect displayed. This is a

> SAFETY precaution because you have no idea what aspect is actually

> displayed or meant to be displayed. /For example - maybe you previously

> passed an Approach Diverging signal and are preparing to take the siding

> beyond the next signal. When you get within sight of the next signal,

> instead of having a Diverging Approach aspect, you have only two

> horizontal red lights. You must STOP. Maybe it is just that the yellow

> lights have burned out. Maybe the bottom red light has burned out, and

> after you passed the previous signal, something happened to cause the

> siding to be fouled or maybe a rail broke. You just don't know. You do

> know that you must stop and call the dispatcher for instructions./

> In case #1, 2, 3, & 4, if _only one_ of the bottom lights is burned out

> or obscured from vision, you can still determine what the signal aspect

> should be and proceed according to signal indication.

> In case #5, if the bottom light is burned out or obscured from vision,

> the aspect is still to be considered as STOP.

>

> Jimmy Lisle

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> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 5

> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 23:29:14 -0400

> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

> Subject: Signaling Issues

> To: "nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

> Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP2151636396E47A0E75A8E8686200 at phx.gbl>

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>

> Also they may be preparing a meet with an opposing train.

> To clear all the fog maybe a signaling presentation can be put together 

> for the next convention?

>

> -JeffHensley.

> Message: 5

> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 21:21:23 -0400

> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

> Subject: Re: N&W signal route diagrams

> To: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

> Message-ID: <52390013.8030001 at ntelos.net>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

>

> On 9/17/2013 5:41 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:

>> I hear you, but I still have the question of why not?  It seems like

>> this would add an unnecessary stop/delay in the case where one

>> movement is following another in the same direction, on the same route

>> through an interlocking.  Any answers, comments, speculation would be

>> greatly appreciated.

> Well, with that kind of thinking, why have any absolute stop signal

> then? Why don't all traffic lights at intersections have flashing yellow

> lights?  It is there because that is where they want you to STOP. It is

> a/_control point_/! In the days before rock and roll, if this signal was

> a STOP/and STAY, this is where you got off and called the dispatcher on

> the phone box to receive further instructions. Did you ever think that

> maybe the dispatcher has other plans for you and doesn't want you to

> follow the train ahead?

>

> Jimmy Lisle

> -------------- next part --------------

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> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 6

> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 22:14:55 -0400

> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

> Subject: Re: N&W excursions of the 1950's / Video shot length

> To: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org

> Message-ID: <58D9BAD8-15B1-4196-82AA-F923D1F53956 at mindspring.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

>

> Andre Jackson mentioned scene lengths in videos. Please remember,

> those of us who produce videos of vintage railroading are limited by

> the film we receive. If the original cameraman cut scenes short,

> there's nothing we can do to extend them. If the picture is horribly

> unsteady with a lot of jerks, rapid pans and zooming that leaves you

> dizzy, I tend to not use it. And this brings up a pointer to those who

> may be new to shooting video: pan SLOWLY and stand back far enough

> from your subject to keep it within you field of view. Whenever

> possible, use a tripod. If your eye can't follow the action

> comfortably chances are your audience will soon begin to leave. I have

> passed up many scenes with these kinds of problems.

>

> -Jim Herron

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 7

> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 22:38:10 -0400

> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

> Subject: Re: N&W excursions of the 1950s

> To: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org

> Message-ID: <465233EA-0404-4F2D-8B95-8D8CB09BCE44 at mindspring.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

>

> Mr.Newton wrote:

>

> "The November 1956 issue of the N&W Magazine covers an excursion

> operated in

> connection with the B&O between Washington and Shenandoah, via Charles

> Town

> southbound and via Shenandoah Junction northbound.  The article

> includes a

> picture of the train at Front Royal, handled by K-1 114.

>

> In connection with the 1957 NRHS Convention, on September 1 Class A 1239

> handled an excursion train from Roanoke to Bluefield.  From there K-1

> 114

> handled the train to Pocahontas, thence via the Bluestone Branch to

> Matoaka,

> W. Va., where it was turned over to the Virginian for the trip back to

> Roanoke.  The train consisted of 15 carts, including three open

> gondolas."

>

> I included film of the Nov, 1956 trip described above in Pocahontas

> Glory Vol. 3.

> That 16mm film was shot by Harry Dodge and Bob Flack.

>

> Mr. Newton, is it possible that the 1957 NRHS train was pulled by Y6b

> 2190 instead of A class 1239 from Roanoke to Bluefield?

> I have film showing what looks to be the same consist you described

> being turned over to a K1 and later from the k1 to a VGN electric.

>

> There was an excursion on July 2, 1959 from Roanoke to Bluefield

> behind A no. 1240 and from Bluefield to Iaeger and return to Bluefield

> with Y6b 2174 before returning to Roanoke behind the 1240. I rode that

> train. I believe it was first advertised to have 611 for power but due

> to ticket demand, extra cars were added and the 1240 was substituted

> for the 611.

>

> -Jim Herron

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

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