Numbers

Wed Aug 12 23:41:03 EDT 2015

Jerome:

You're asking me to do "informed speculation", always a dangerous  
proposition under the best of circumstances.  However, as my friends keep  reminding 
me, I long ago retired the "angels fear to tread" award, so here  goes.

No.  Remember, by the time the Js were designed, N&W had lots of  
experience with the Ks, 1, 2, and 2a.  I think they knew that they needed  the 
initial tractive effort of an eight-drivered locomotive.  The N&W  is the total 
opposite of the "Water Level Route", and even NYC went to  Mohawks and 
Niagaras later in the steam era.  NYC had lots of long runs  between stations, 
which N&W did not, even with the Powhatan Arrow, so  "getting out of Dodge" 
quickly was a big deal.  And, of course, the  grades.  Remember, NYC had to use 
helpers to get trains up the hill  from Albany to Schenectady, and I don't 
have that grade committed to  memory, but I think it was less that what N&W 
had pretty much  everywhere.

The J3 Hudsons had the DBHP at high speeds for sustained running, but  
their low end TE would have been woefully inadequate for the N&W's  needs.

Thanks for honoring me by asking me to perform "informed speculation";  I 
hope this helped.

Regards,

Dave Phelps 

In a message dated 8/12/2015 10:25:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org writes:

Dave:  A thought along different lines:  the J's job in  regular service 
was less demanding 
than the train length / weight during  excursion service.  Would an N&W 
design along the 
lines of the  NYC / ALCo J3 Hudsons be closer to the actual need of the 
1940-1960 era  ?

Jerome Crosson; St Peters MO

-----Original  Message-----
From: NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List  <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
To: nw-mailing-list  <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Cc: NW Mailing List  <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Sent: Tue, Aug 11, 2015 11:48  am
Subject: Re: Numbers

Jerome:   

I think you'd have a  hard time making a compelling case that the J was 
"overdesigned."   Repeating what many have already said, and as Col. Jeffries 
illustrated in his  book when he reproduced the N&W curves, the J was 
designed to have very  high drawbar horsepower in the mid-speed range, and decent 
high speed  capability when the track allowed.  Slogging up ruling grades 
with 20+  trailing cars, exciting in excursion service, wasn't the point.  High 
 average speeds with varying consists, coming out of, for example, 30 mph  
curves and getting quickly back up to the 60-65 mph typically allowed on  
tangents, without doubleheading, was the point, and that the J did very  
nicely.  

Regards,  

Dave  Phelps   

In a message dated 8/11/2015 6:46:09 A.M. Eastern  Daylight Time, 
nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org writes:   

Roger:  My 2 cents regarding the A vs. the UP  Challengers.  The A is plus 
14,000 pounds
on starting T.E.; has  drivers 1 inch greater diameter; and weighs 50,000 
pounds less.
The Y and  the Big Boy are not directly comparable; although the Y's 
starting T.E. is  30,000
pounds greater.  The J seems to have been overdesigned;  approached its 
limit more in
excursion service than in its pre 1960  'career'.

Jerome Crosson;  NWHS; st. Louis Museum of  Transportation; residing in St. 
Peters MO.

-----Original  Message-----
From: NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List  <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
To: NW Mailing List  <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Cc: NW Mailing List  <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Sent: Mon, Aug 10, 2015 5:39  pm
Subject: Re: Numbers

"None of the  UP’s big three (800, Challenger, Big Boy) could have come 
down to the N&W  and done what the N&W”s big three did."   

EdKing   

And likewise, the N&W Magnificent Three wouldn't  have been very productive 
on the Onion Pathetic doing the jobs their ugly Big  Three could do!    

First they had lousy coal for the Pig Boy that worked for it  but would 
have gagged the N&W beasties.    

The Y-6b couldn't have hauled at  the speed the Challengers did.  

The J would have beat itself to death running the speeds the  FEF's were 
operated even though it was proven to run pretty fast.   

The A could have  probably done the same job as the Challengers if they had 
good coal.   

I'm NOT a UP fan but  steam engines were railroad and service specific and 
a magnificent engine for  one road wouldn't necessarily have been worth a 
flip on another railroad for  various reasons.    

I think the Challengers and FEFs were very good  engines. I think the Pig 
Boy was a huge publicity event and the subject of way  too much hype but then 
again I'm rather prejudiced towards the A, AG, H-8,  EM-1 and Missabe 
M-3/4s. I don't care for the UP steamer look either compared  to how the N&W 
cosmetically treated their power. Apples vs oranges! I  think the engineers & 
designers in Roanoke were able to create much better  esthetically pleasing 
locomotives than Alco.  

In reply to another post about the 3 engines side by  side in Roanoke I 
think seeing them in 2015 all together is just as impressive  an event as 
having the 611 out running again. Who would have ever dreamed we'd  see that 
again? WOW!!!   

Anyway, just my 2¢!  

Roger Huber  

Deer Creek Locomotive Works   

------------------------------------------------------------
From: NW Mailing List  <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
To: NW Mailing List  <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> 
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 6:33  AM
Subject: Re: Numbers

I confess – the sum of the N&W big three adding up to the UP 4-6-6-4 was  
sent me by Vello Nickolaou, an old friend who just got back home after 
viewing  all three at the VMT.  Vello was the producer of some of the railroad  
programs done by the Histrophy Channel a few years back.       

And Mike is correct –  3985=676!           

And, Mike, Clinchfield 677 is coming out of my backshop  soon.  I always 
wanted a Bowser Wowser, and I’m finally getting mine  done, thanks to the Rev. 
Jim Nichols who supplied some needed parts.  I  numbered it after a 
Southern Ks 2-8-0 that was at Bristol for a spell.   Fits right after the 
renumbered UP job.          

And no, Frank; the N&W big three do  not in any other respects add up to a 
UP Challenger.  None of the UP’s  big three (800, Challenger, Big Boy) could 
have come down to the N&W and  done what the N&W”s big three did.          

EdKing          

From:           NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List       

Sent: Sunday,  August 09, 2015 9:35 PM              

To:             NW Mailing List               

Cc:             NW Mailing List               

Subject: Re: Numbers         

I drove past VMT yesterday (8/8/15) and  all three were lined up under the 
pavilion (1218, 611, 2156, left to right,  viewed from Shenandoah Ave north 
side of the tracks), not a tarp in  sight.  They looked pretty good to me!!  

Dave                

From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
To: 'NW  Mailing List' <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> 
Sent: Sunday, August 9,  2015 11:15 AM
Subject: RE: Numbers

3985….  And are all three under tarps at VMT? What is the reason to visit 
Roanoke and  VMT if they are.                   

Mason Cooper                   

From:      NW-Mailing-List [mailto:nw-mailing-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On  
Behalf Of NW Mailing List
Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2015 9:52 AM
To: NW  Mailing List
Subject: Numbers             

What is the sum of 611, 1218 and 2156?             

EdKing                      

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