Trains 141, 142

[NW Mailing List]

To add to Jim's comment.

He is spot on in the description, but for the folks who might not understand. The railroads in that time, simply just could not go discontinue a passenger train on their own.

To discontinue a passenger train, the railroads had to go before the State Corporation Commission, who held a hearing on the discontinuance where any objecting to the discontinuance could make their feelings known. The railroad had to have documentation as to why the they wanted to discontinue the train, usually low ridership was the main reason, but they also had to prepare answers as to how mail and express formerly handled on the said train was to be handled. Their documentation included a monthly chart showing riders by day and destination, and sheets of labor costs, locomotive costs, fuel costs, etc. 

Ken Miller
On Feb 5, 2018, at 10:46 AM, NW Mailing List wrote:

> The fact that they were primarily mail and express trains was immaterial. The "lack of passenger patronage" would be the reason cited for eliminating the schedule. The mail and express would then be added to another train; but eliminating a schedule would save money.
> Jim Nichols
> 
> 
> On Monday, February 5, 2018 5:46 AM, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Harry,
>  
> Thanks very much for looking into this and associating Southern 141 and 142 with N&W 9 and 10,  all the same train.  I wonder about the citing of “lack of passenger patronage” as the reason for discontinuing these trains since they were always essentially mail/express trains.
>  
> Two related observations:
>  
> 1.       I spent considerable time in the early 1960s  at Montview “Tower” (actually a small wooden shack to operate the switches and signals on the Southern end of the connecting double wye to Kinney. The distance through the wye between N&W and Southern is no more than one mile and the N&W end of the wye had no “tower.” Passenger trains moved through the wye at 30 to 40mph without stopping. Thus allocating seven minutes seems contrary to anything I observed ten or so years later with the other jointing operated passenger trains.  To the extent there were any order for these trains (moving either west or east) they were given by hoop and the trains did not stop for them. By the way, the is the same double wye the Amtrak trains now use.
> 2.       I have consist reports for the eastbound trains (42,46,18) for many days in the early 1960s.  No 42 often ran a heavy consist of up to 18 cars, including two Pullmans and two to four passenger cars.  My guess (and it is only a guess) is that the discontinuance of 142 in the early 1950s resulted in considerably more mail and express being put on No. 42.   And between around Thanksgiving and Christmas each year, there were one or two second sections in each way of the N&W/Southern trains to carry the Christmas mail.
>  
>                               Ray Smoot
>  
>  
>  
> From: NW-Mailing-List [mailto:nw-mailing-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List
> Sent: Friday, February 2, 2018 10:49 AM
> To: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
> Cc: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: Re: Trains 141, 142
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Ray:
> Reviewing 1949 timetables from N&W's Norfolk Division and Southern's Washington
> and Danville divisions, it appears that No. 10 originating on the N&W became No. 142
> at Montview.  Seven minutes was allocated for the move between Montview and
> Kinney. No. 141 became N&W No. 9 at that point.  Nos. 9/10 were mail and
> express trains on the N&W, but did carry a rider coach.  Southern Nos. 141-142 made
> limited stops between Monroe and Alexandria--Charlottesville was the only station
> stop from No. 141.  With service solely in Virginia, Nos. 9 and 10 disappeared in the
> late 50s.  N&W cited lack of passenger patronage for discontinuance.
>  
> For Norfolk Division train crews, the train was handed over to Southern train crews
> at Kemper Street, but engine crews swapped at Monroe, so between Kemper Street
> and Monroe, it was a mixed crew.                    Harry Bundy
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