Fw: J Class at Speed - An Interesting Series of Stories

Sun Feb 9 09:22:20 EST 2020

Boy are these some great stories about the top speed of steam locomotives! Reminds me of the old Ford vs. Chevy stories that I grew up hearing! Well boys it’s that time of year. The Daytona 500 is just around the bend. As former NASCAR driver and race announcer Darrel Waltrip says “Let’s go racing boys!” Thanks to the boys of the N&WHS for these interesting stories about speed from back in the day!
Norris

Norris Deyerle
Blue Ridge Chapter, National Railway Historical Society Chairman of Virginia's Rail Heritage Region Partners
Info: www.blueridgenrhs.org
744 Chinook Place
Lynchburg, Virginia 24502-4908
Cell: 434-851-0151
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From: NW-Mailing-List <nw-mailing-list-bounces at nwhs.org> on behalf of NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 8, 2020 3:51:26 PM
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Cc: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Subject: J Class at Speed

When chasing the 2156 move to Roanoke several years ago, I set up for some video somewhere between Waverly and Portsmouth. When the train came through, a guy in a pickup came down the paralleling road at a perfect speed to stay between my camera and the train about as good as if he worked out the math ahead of time. It was irritating, but hey, things happen.

The bright side came a few minutes later when the truck’s driver (a former N&W engine crew guy from the Peavine) realized what he’d done and in reparation, introduced me to a steam-era guy (also a regular on the Peavine) who had showed him the sixties.

Long story short, the second guy got to telling steam stories, two of which Ed King’s comments reminded me of.

The first regarded cornering. He said he liked the K2’s better - “you couldn’t turn them things over - you could go around a 35mph curve at 50. You never know you’re going around a curve” and “the K2’s rode better than any engine I ever rode”.  He said the J’s scared him, too tall - he stuck to the speed limit on those.

In another story, he was sitting on the left hand side on a J one day and left Ironton about twenty minutes late. The engineer said “Bill, you wanna go in on time?”. He said they did get in on time, getting up to 105mph at Haverhill. The other details he related were almost as interesting - at that speed he said the metal apron was “a jumpin’ up and down” and the coal dust blowing into the cab was so thick that he could hardly see the engineer. Apparently the engineer invited him over to see the speedometer, but Bill declined “I wasn’t about to get off that seatbox! We were movin’!"

What a great couple of stories for a guy (me) that is a bit too young to have been exposed to these kind of stories, at least in person (this list is also a great resource for that kind of thing).

Matt Goodman
Columbus, Ohio US

On Feb 8, 2020, at 1:55 PM, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>> wrote:

If you read Dave Stephenson’s intriguing report of “A J at 111” it sums it up this way.  When the T1 (no hyphen in PRR’s class designations) cameon the road there were considerable “teething troubles” and its ultimate performance depended on careful roundhouse preparation and skilled handling which weren’t always present.  I think a lot of PRR enginemen didn’t want to run the T1s right because they were replacing two K4 Pacifics and their two crews.

Stephenson chronicles the J which just came out of Roanoke Shop and went to work; no unusual roundhouse preparation and no special engine handling needed.

>From what I’ve learned from Louis Newton and others, handling a J on heavy trains on the Bristol Line was a lot like driving a sports car; they could go diving into those many curves, braking for the proper speed, and then accelerating out the other end and getting back to speed.  And another thing to remember is that in that era speed limits were usually honored in the breach.

- Ed King

From: NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2020 12:19 PM
To: NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List
Cc: NW Mailing List
Subject: Re: Virginian PA locomotive speed

"I'll take any N&W J any day over a T-1!
        Roger Huber"

Fully agree.
Bill Demarest

On Saturday, February 8, 2020, 11:59:25 AM EST, NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>> wrote:

Emotions also carry in to stuff like this too. With that said concerning the Pennsy T-1 the PRRT&HS magazine The Keystone has had several articles on the T-1 and many interviews/comments from PRR Operating men concerning these legendary speeds. Naturally the emotional aspect shows up but nevertheless so many Enginemen have stated these amazing speeds and there have been Dispatcher's Sheets showing matching speeds with trains over their divisions so those must be accurate.

As to "official speed runs" as Jerome stated they had to be set according to designated conditions to be equal. Sort of like the folks who seek entry into Ripley's. Specific, set conditions must be met to make things equal and fair.

While the PRR T-1 is far from my favorite steam locomotive I have to admire it's ability to move trains quicker than most engines. These articles mentioned also bring to light much of the denigration of the T-1's slipperiness. Basically they were extreme engines, purposely built for speed and hauling long trains. When improperly or poorly handled they were more than a handful but with a skilled Engineman could produce amazing performance. I think that can be said about most steamers.

I'll take any N&W J any day over a T-1!

Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works

On Saturday, February 8, 2020, 05:30:22 AM CST, NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>> wrote:

Personal opinion:  Land speed records should be accepted only if standardized
conditions have been established in advance.  Example: records in track and field
require an eight lane track; specified head wind / tail wind, etc.

The claim of 112.5 mph for NYC 999 is dubious; because of known factors of
boiler capacity and cylinder volume; also because observations were largely estimated.

The 'World Record' of 126 mph for Mallard is likewise dubious, because it was established
on a downhill grade and documented by what some consider as a couple of 'blips' on the
chart.

>From what I have read, the reported 140 mph for a T-1 is too poorly documented to
be accepted as fact.  But 'legends' seem to have a life of their own.

Jerome Crosson.  Formerly NJ; now NWHS residing in St. Peters MO.  Maybe I'll see
you at NMRA 2020 in St. Louis.

-----Original Message-----
From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>>
To: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>>
Sent: Fri, Feb 7, 2020 6:05 pm
Subject: Re: Virginian PA locomotive speed

What’re your thoughts on the anecdotal reports of PRR T-1’s hitting the 140 mph mark west of Crestline, OH?

It’s been a while but I think the first time I read that might’ve been in Alvin Stauffer’s book on Pennsy Power.

Patrick Whalen
Radnor, PA

On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 5:07 PM NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
Thanks for the info. Wow. I didn’t think they could go that fast.
-Phil Miller

From: NW-Mailing-List [mailto:nw-mailing-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Mailing List
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2020 2:51 PM
To: NW Mailing List
Subject: Re: Virginian PA locomotive speed

With the 69” drivers and the cylinder dimensoins, the PA’s could be expected to cruise at 85 MPH range.  The N&W 100-series engines could be expected to run in the same range.

The Js can’t be considered in comparison with ANY other steam locomotive.  They were so well designed including their counterbalancing that they could operate comfortably at driver RPMs in excess of 500 and could reach speeds in excess of that.

Remember that if a locomotive  operating a a speed equalling their driving wheel diameter, those wheels will be turning up 336 RPM.  There were many locomotives that could operate in the 400 RPM range.  There were others not comfortable at 336 (the Atlantic Coast Line’s 1800-series Northerns, for example).

- Ed King
From: NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2020 12:13 PM
To: 'NW Mailing List'
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Subject: Virginian PA locomotive speed

Hello,
I wondered if anyone can tell me how fast the Virginian PA passenger locomotives could or did run?  I’m wondering about their designed top speed and normal schedule running speed. I’m sure it’s slower than the N&W J’s but would they have been comparable to older N&W passenger engines?
Phil Miller
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