Virginian PA locomotive speed
NW Mailing List
nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
Tue Feb 11 21:35:11 EST 2020
Recent Mailing List accounts of the N&W's Class J locomotive at speed
remind me of a story told to me first hand in the 1950's. That was when
I was making two or three train trips a year between Bluefield, WV (my
home was near Princeton, WV) and Berea College on the L&N in Kentucky.
The most expedient way to travel was to ride the Pocahontas (Nos. 3 and
4) between Bluefield and Cincinnati because they connected directly with
the Southland (Nos. 32 and 33) on the L&N serving Berea. When I had the
time and money, however, I preferred to ride the Powhatan Arrow (Nos. 25
and 26) between Bluefield and Cincinnati, spend nights coming and/or
going at the Cincinnati YMCA and riding the Southland as before.
Naturally, on the Arrow I spent most of the trip in the observation
section of the tavern-lounge-observation car. On one trip a gentleman
struck up conversation with me, and I learned that he worked for the
N&W. Unfortunately, I did not have the sense to take notes in those
days, but I remember clearly the incident that he described to me, even
if I do not remember his name or N&W title.
He told me that once he was involved in a detour of N&W passenger trains
over the C&O between Kenova, WV, and Cincinnati, obviously due to some
line blockage between those two points on the N&W. He said that he rode
in the cab of the Class J over the C&O while a C&O engineer ran the
locomotive. He said that at one point he called out to the C&O engineer
as to the track speed limit where they were. The engineer replied that
it was 70 mph. My narrator told me that he said to the C&O engineer,
"Do you know you are going 90 mph?"
My narrator explained that he cited this story to illustrate the fact
that the Class J locomotives actually smoothed out at the faster speeds.
Gordon Hamilton
On 2/8/2020 1:55 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:
> If you read Dave Stephenson’s intriguing report of “A J at 111” it
> sums it up this way. When the T1 (no hyphen in PRR’s class
> designations) cameon the road there were considerable “teething
> troubles” and its ultimate performance depended on careful roundhouse
> preparation and skilled handling which weren’t always present. I
> think a lot of PRR enginemen didn’t want to run the T1s right because
> they were replacing two K4 Pacifics and their two crews.
> Stephenson chronicles the J which just came out of Roanoke Shop and
> went to work; no unusual roundhouse preparation and no special engine
> handling needed.
> From what I’ve learned from Louis Newton and others, handling a J on
> heavy trains on the Bristol Line was a lot like driving a sports car;
> they could go diving into those many curves, braking for the proper
> speed, and then accelerating out the other end and getting back to
> speed. And another thing to remember is that in that era speed limits
> were usually honored in the breach.
> - Ed King
> *From:* NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 08, 2020 12:19 PM
> *To:* NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List
> *Cc:* NW Mailing List
> *Subject:* Re: Virginian PA locomotive speed
>
> "I'll take any N&W J any day over a T-1!
>
> Roger Huber"
> Fully agree.
> Bill Demarest
> On Saturday, February 8, 2020, 11:59:25 AM EST, NW Mailing List via
> NW-Mailing-List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
> Emotions also carry in to stuff like this too. With that said
> concerning the Pennsy T-1 the PRRT&HS magazine /The Keystone/ has had
> several articles on the T-1 and many interviews/comments from PRR
> Operating men concerning these legendary speeds. Naturally the
> emotional aspect shows up but nevertheless so many Enginemen have
> stated these amazing speeds and there have been Dispatcher's Sheets
> showing matching speeds with trains over their divisions so those must
> be accurate.
> As to "official speed runs" as Jerome stated they had to be set
> according to designated conditions to be equal. Sort of like the folks
> who seek entry into Ripley's. Specific, set conditions must be met to
> make things equal and fair.
> While the PRR T-1 is far from my favorite steam locomotive I have to
> admire it's ability to move trains quicker than most engines. These
> articles mentioned also bring to light much of the denigration of the
> T-1's slipperiness. Basically they were extreme engines, purposely
> built for speed and hauling long trains. When improperly or poorly
> handled they were more than a handful but with a skilled Engineman
> could produce amazing performance. I think that can be said about most
> steamers.
> I'll take any N&W J any day over a T-1!
> Roger Huber
> Deer Creek Locomotive Works
> On Saturday, February 8, 2020, 05:30:22 AM CST, NW Mailing List via
> NW-Mailing-List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
> Personal opinion: Land speed records should be accepted only if
> standardized
> conditions have been established in advance. Example: records in
> track and field
> require an eight lane track; specified head wind / tail wind, etc.
> The claim of 112.5 mph for NYC 999 is dubious; because of known factors of
> boiler capacity and cylinder volume; also because observations were
> largely estimated.
> The 'World Record' of 126 mph for Mallard is likewise dubious, because
> it was established
> on a downhill grade and documented by what some consider as a couple
> of 'blips' on the
> chart.
> From what I have read, the reported 140 mph for a T-1 is too poorly
> documented to
> be accepted as fact. But 'legends' seem to have a life of their own.
> Jerome Crosson. Formerly NJ; now NWHS residing in St. Peters MO.
> Maybe I'll see
> you at NMRA 2020 in St. Louis.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> To: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Sent: Fri, Feb 7, 2020 6:05 pm
> Subject: Re: Virginian PA locomotive speed
>
> What’re your thoughts on the anecdotal reports of PRR T-1’s hitting
> the 140 mph mark west of Crestline, OH?
> It’s been a while but I think the first time I read that might’ve been
> in Alvin Stauffer’s book on Pennsy Power.
> Patrick Whalen
> Radnor, PA
> On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 5:07 PM NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List
> <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the info. Wow. I didn’t think they could go that fast.
> -Phil Miller
> *From:*NW-Mailing-List [mailto:nw-mailing-list-bounces at nwhs.org]
> *On Behalf Of *NW Mailing List
> *Sent:* Friday, February 07, 2020 2:51 PM
> *To:* NW Mailing List
> *Subject:* Re: Virginian PA locomotive speed
> With the 69” drivers and the cylinder dimensoins, the PA’s could
> be expected to cruise at 85 MPH range. The N&W 100-series engines
> could be expected to run in the same range.
> The Js can’t be considered in comparison with ANY other steam
> locomotive. They were so well designed including their
> counterbalancing that they could operate comfortably at driver
> RPMs in excess of 500 and could reach speeds in excess of that.
> Remember that if a locomotive operating a a speed equalling their
> driving wheel diameter, those wheels will be turning up 336 RPM.
> There were many locomotives that could operate in the 400 RPM
> range. There were others not comfortable at 336 (the Atlantic
> Coast Line’s 1800-series Northerns, for example).
> - Ed King
> *From:*NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List
> *Sent:*Friday, February 07, 2020 12:13 PM
> *To:*'NW Mailing List'
> *Cc:*NW Mailing List
> *Subject:*Virginian PA locomotive speed
> Hello,
> I wondered if anyone can tell me how fast the Virginian PA
> passenger locomotives could or did run? I’m wondering about their
> designed top speed and normal schedule running speed. I’m sure
> it’s slower than the N&W J’s but would they have been comparable
> to older N&W passenger engines?
> Phil Miller
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