From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Mon Oct 12 02:34:19 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 06:34:19 +0000 Subject: Bachmann J HO Loco In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris that is really very helpful indeed. the manual as supplied doesn't indicate that at all. Very many thanks. I'll report back on how I get on! Barry Reeves Songwriter & Musician www.northwestlondonblues.co.uk To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: Bachmann J HO Loco Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 16:43:16 -0400 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Hello Barry, It takes 3 screws to remove the shell from the Spectrum J. One is in the front of the engine just over top of the leading axle on the pilot truck on the bottom side of the model. You should be able to turn the pilot truck sideways and reach the screw with a medium sized jewelers phillips head screwdriver. The 2 screws in the back are a little more tricky. These 2 screws go in through the frame into the back outer corners of the cab underneath the model. There is a plastic fixture on each side of the loco under the cab that friction fits into the side of the frame. The feedwater lines come out of the shell behind the rear driver set and run into these fixtures under the cab. These 2 plastic castings must be pried off with a small flathead screwdriver to reveal the screws beneath the cab. The feedwater lines pivot on these fixtures, so as long as your not too rough, once you pry these two plastic casting off you should be able to pivot them away from the cab enough to reach the screws. Hope this helps. Thanks, Chris Dalton Bluefield, WV Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now. _________________________________________________________________ Save time by using Hotmail to access your other email accounts. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/167688463/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Mon Oct 12 18:22:44 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 22:22:44 +0000 Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj In-Reply-To: <009401ca4aa7$52409b00$f6c1d100$@net> References: Message-ID: Just wondering, where did you buy your M1 for $396? Thanks, John To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:16:22 -0400 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org For those that are waiting for a correct N&W Class BEj Baggage Car (Nos. 110-124) I would recommend waiting for Division Point. The Rail Classic N&W BEj is a very poor rendition of the car so I dumped my after realizing all the problems. The Division Point car should sell around the same price of $396 as the M1 RPO. I have not received my M1?s yet and will give all my take on the red. I just hope they are not the hideous red as the Bachman passenger red. Stephen Another heads up for the O scale VGN modeler. Sunset is doing the VGN AE 2-10-10-2 the end of this year. The O Scale N&W K2a Streamlined is due early 2010. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Tue Oct 13 08:57:21 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 08:57:21 -0400 Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00d701ca4c04$b45d3d30$1d17b790$@net> John: Email me and I will give you the information. Stephen Rineair crineair at fuse.net From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:23 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Just wondering, where did you buy your M1 for $396? Thanks, John _____ To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:16:22 -0400 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org For those that are waiting for a correct N&W Class BEj Baggage Car (Nos. 110-124) I would recommend waiting for Division Point. The Rail Classic N&W BEj is a very poor rendition of the car so I dumped my after realizing all the problems. The Division Point car should sell around the same price of $396 as the M1 RPO. I have not received my M1's yet and will give all my take on the red. I just hope they are not the hideous red as the Bachman passenger red. Stephen Another heads up for the O scale VGN modeler. Sunset is doing the VGN AE 2-10-10-2 the end of this year. The O Scale N&W K2a Streamlined is due early 2010. _____ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Tue Oct 13 20:00:12 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:00:12 -0400 Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj In-Reply-To: <00d701ca4c04$b45d3d30$1d17b790$@net> References: <00d701ca4c04$b45d3d30$1d17b790$@net> Message-ID: <010601ca4c61$4d4c86c0$e7e59440$@net> I received the Division Point M1 RPO cars today. The car itself looks fantastic! The diaphragms are very well executed, maybe one the best produced yet! The details on the car are very well done and crisp. The window treatment are excellent with blinds(?) which helps hide the empty interior. There are no lights in the car, but could be added if one prefers. I will leave my as is for now. The color, well let me say it's some type of maroon, red, pinkish color that doesn't come close to the Overland, Key, Rail Classic, AHM/Rivarossi cars, which are pretty much all the same. The red looks like the Bachman red which is way far off, that there is no words to describe. The roofs are charcoal, gray/brown or something I can't describe but definitely not black. I compared the roofs to the N&W cabooses Division Point produced if they were trying to do brown roofs, and they are no match. The roof color doesn't match any N&W models ever produced that I've seen. The under body and end are black and is very good and detailed. Division Point has a reputation of screwing up the paint schemes, like the N&W Blue(?) caboose and VGN caboose red. I am looking forward to the next car, but sure hope they correct the paint. I personally will call Ken or Jack at DP to let them know. I give the car a 10, but the paint a 6. Stephen Rineair crineair at fuse.net From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:23 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Just wondering, where did you buy your M1 for $396? Thanks, John _____ To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:16:22 -0400 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org For those that are waiting for a correct N&W Class BEj Baggage Car (Nos. 110-124) I would recommend waiting for Division Point. The Rail Classic N&W BEj is a very poor rendition of the car so I dumped my after realizing all the problems. The Division Point car should sell around the same price of $396 as the M1 RPO. I have not received my M1's yet and will give all my take on the red. I just hope they are not the hideous red as the Bachman passenger red. Stephen Another heads up for the O scale VGN modeler. Sunset is doing the VGN AE 2-10-10-2 the end of this year. The O Scale N&W K2a Streamlined is due early 2010. _____ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Tue Oct 13 21:41:09 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 18:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj In-Reply-To: <010601ca4c61$4d4c86c0$e7e59440$@net> References: <00d701ca4c04$b45d3d30$1d17b790$@net> <010601ca4c61$4d4c86c0$e7e59440$@net> Message-ID: <342192.39995.qm@web55103.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Will you attempt to tone down the red with some black weathering? Mike Rector ________________________________ From: NW Modeling List To: NW Modeling List Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 8:00:12 PM Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj I received the Division Point M1 RPO cars today. The car itself looks fantastic! The diaphragms are very well executed, maybe one the best produced yet! The details on the car are very well done and crisp. The window treatment are excellent with blinds(?) which helps hide the empty interior. There are no lights in the car, but could be added if one prefers. I will leave my as is for now. The color, well let me say it?s some type of maroon, red, pinkish color that doesn?t come close to the Overland, Key, Rail Classic, AHM/Rivarossi cars, which are pretty much all the same. The red looks like the Bachman red which is way far off, that there is no words to describe. The roofs are charcoal, gray/brown or something I can?t describe but definitely not black. I compared the roofs to the N&W cabooses Division Point produced if they were trying to do brown roofs, and they are no match. The roof color doesn?t match any N&W models ever produced that I?ve seen. The under body and end are black and is very good and detailed. Division Point has a reputation of screwing up the paint schemes, like the N&W Blue(?) caboose and VGN caboose red. I am looking forward to the next car, but sure hope they correct the paint. I personally will call Ken or Jack at DP to let them know. I give the car a 10, but the paint a 6. Stephen Rineair crineair at fuse.net From:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:23 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Just wondering, where did you buy your M1 for $396? Thanks, John ________________________________ To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:16:22 -0400 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org For those that are waiting for a correct N&W Class BEj Baggage Car (Nos. 110-124) I would recommend waiting for Division Point. The Rail Classic N&W BEj is a very poor rendition of the car so I dumped my after realizing all the problems. The Division Point car should sell around the same price of $396 as the M1 RPO. I have not received my M1?s yet and will give all my take on the red. I just hope they are not the hideous red as the Bachman passenger red. Stephen Another heads up for the O scale VGN modeler. Sunset is doing the VGN AE 2-10-10-2 the end of this year. The O Scale N&W K2a Streamlined is due early 2010. ________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Wed Oct 14 09:44:55 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 09:44:55 -0400 Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj In-Reply-To: <342192.39995.qm@web55103.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <00d701ca4c04$b45d3d30$1d17b790$@net> <010601ca4c61$4d4c86c0$e7e59440$@net> <342192.39995.qm@web55103.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000901ca4cd4$83ccb850$8b6628f0$@net> Mike: I am seriously considering repainting the model, which I feel should not have to be done for the price. Even Tom Dressler, George Hughes, Dean Freytag, Jim Nichols(?) at some of the first conventioneers agreed that the IHC/AHM/Rivarossi Car color is very close (having color paint samples). Even the newer Branchline N&W kits are a very good color match. I sure wish our modeling committee could have been at some of the early convention in which the N&W color was discussed In great lengths so that we could get better color quality control. I can handle color variations from model to model, but this is a little too far in left field. I appreciate your suggestion Mike, but not all modelers like to weather their model. It would be nice if the modeling committee would use pervious produced models as a guide and come Reasonably close. Stephen Rineair From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:41 PM To: NW Modeling List Subject: Re: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Will you attempt to tone down the red with some black weathering? Mike Rector _____ From: NW Modeling List To: NW Modeling List Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 8:00:12 PM Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj I received the Division Point M1 RPO cars today. The car itself looks fantastic! The diaphragms are very well executed, maybe one the best produced yet! The details on the car are very well done and crisp. The window treatment are excellent with blinds(?) which helps hide the empty interior. There are no lights in the car, but could be added if one prefers. I will leave my as is for now. The color, well let me say it?s some type of maroon, red, pinkish color that doesn?t come close to the Overland, Key, Rail Classic, AHM/Rivarossi cars, which are pretty much all the same. The red looks like the Bachman red which is way far off, that there is no words to describe. The roofs are charcoal, gray/brown or something I can?t describe but definitely not black. I compared the roofs to the N&W cabooses Division Point produced if they were trying to do brown roofs, and they are no match. The roof color doesn?t match any N&W models ever produced that I?ve seen. The under body and end are black and is very good and detailed. Division Point has a reputation of screwing up the paint schemes, like the N&W Blue(?) caboose and VGN caboose red. I am looking forward to the next car, but sure hope they correct the paint. I personally will call Ken or Jack at DP to let them know. I give the car a 10, but the paint a 6. Stephen Rineair crineair at fuse.net From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:23 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Just wondering, where did you buy your M1 for $396? Thanks, John _____ To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:16:22 -0400 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org For those that are waiting for a correct N&W Class BEj Baggage Car (Nos. 110-124) I would recommend waiting for Division Point. The Rail Classic N&W BEj is a very poor rendition of the car so I dumped my after realizing all the problems. The Division Point car should sell around the same price of $396 as the M1 RPO. I have not received my M1?s yet and will give all my take on the red. I just hope they are not the hideous red as the Bachman passenger red. Stephen Another heads up for the O scale VGN modeler. Sunset is doing the VGN AE 2-10-10-2 the end of this year. The O Scale N&W K2a Streamlined is due early 2010. _____ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Wed Oct 14 09:49:19 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 06:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj In-Reply-To: <010601ca4c61$4d4c86c0$e7e59440$@net> References: <00d701ca4c04$b45d3d30$1d17b790$@net> <010601ca4c61$4d4c86c0$e7e59440$@net> Message-ID: <815465.61034.qm@web52511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> They say a picture is worth a thousand words. If possible, could you take a few so we can see what these cars look like? I'm interested in them but am one of those people who have to see a finished product first. Brian Dembinski ________________________________ From: NW Modeling List To: NW Modeling List Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 8:00:12 PM Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj I received the Division Point M1 RPO cars today. The car itself looks fantastic! The diaphragms are very well executed, maybe one the best produced yet! The details on the car are very well done and crisp. The window treatment are excellent with blinds(?) which helps hide the empty interior. There are no lights in the car, but could be added if one prefers. I will leave my as is for now. The color, well let me say it?s some type of maroon, red, pinkish color that doesn?t come close to the Overland, Key, Rail Classic, AHM/Rivarossi cars, which are pretty much all the same. The red looks like the Bachman red which is way far off, that there is no words to describe. The roofs are charcoal, gray/brown or something I can?t describe but definitely not black. I compared the roofs to the N&W cabooses Division Point produced if they were trying to do brown roofs, and they are no match. The roof color doesn?t match any N&W models ever produced that I?ve seen. The under body and end are black and is very good and detailed. Division Point has a reputation of screwing up the paint schemes, like the N&W Blue(?) caboose and VGN caboose red. I am looking forward to the next car, but sure hope they correct the paint. ?I personally will call Ken or Jack at DP to let them know. I give the car a 10, but the? paint a 6. Stephen Rineair crineair at fuse.net ? From:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:23 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj ? Just wondering, where did you buy your M1 for $396? Thanks, John ? ________________________________ To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:16:22 -0400 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org For those that are waiting for? a correct N&W Class BEj Baggage Car (Nos. 110-124) I would recommend waiting for Division Point. The Rail Classic N&W BEj is a very? poor rendition of the car so I dumped my after realizing all the problems. The Division Point car should sell around the same price of $396 as the M1 RPO. I have not received my M1?s yet and will give all my take on the red.? I just hope they are not the hideous red as the Bachman passenger red. Stephen ? ? Another heads up for the O scale VGN modeler.? Sunset is doing the VGN AE 2-10-10-2 the end of this year. The O Scale N&W K2a Streamlined is due early 2010. ? ? ? ________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Wed Oct 14 19:45:56 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:45:56 -0400 Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj In-Reply-To: <000901ca4cd4$83ccb850$8b6628f0$@net> References: <00d701ca4c04$b45d3d30$1d17b790$@net> <010601ca4c61$4d4c86c0$e7e59440$@net> <342192.39995.qm@web55103.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <000901ca4cd4$83ccb850$8b6628f0$@net> Message-ID: Stephen, Same old debate. When you look at videos or pictures of N&W prototypes the colors go through a range of variation. As the N&W passenger train passes by the different colors are amazing. I've pretty much stopped losing sleep over the various colors on models. If it has more red than PRR Tuscan and stays less red that a fire engine it probably matches one of the cars going by on a N&W passenger consist in the 1950's. Ed Painter; Narrows, VA currently living in Russellville, AR From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:45 AM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Mike: I am seriously considering repainting the model, which I feel should not have to be done for the price. Even Tom Dressler, George Hughes, Dean Freytag, Jim Nichols(?) at some of the first conventioneers agreed that the IHC/AHM/Rivarossi Car color is very close (having color paint samples). Even the newer Branchline N&W kits are a very good color match. I sure wish our modeling committee could have been at some of the early convention in which the N&W color was discussed In great lengths so that we could get better color quality control. I can handle color variations from model to model, but this is a little too far in left field. I appreciate your suggestion Mike, but not all modelers like to weather their model. It would be nice if the modeling committee would use pervious produced models as a guide and come Reasonably close. Stephen Rineair From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:41 PM To: NW Modeling List Subject: Re: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Will you attempt to tone down the red with some black weathering? Mike Rector ________________________________ From: NW Modeling List To: NW Modeling List Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 8:00:12 PM Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj I received the Division Point M1 RPO cars today. The car itself looks fantastic! The diaphragms are very well executed, maybe one the best produced yet! The details on the car are very well done and crisp. The window treatment are excellent with blinds(?) which helps hide the empty interior. There are no lights in the car, but could be added if one prefers. I will leave my as is for now. The color, well let me say it?s some type of maroon, red, pinkish color that doesn?t come close to the Overland, Key, Rail Classic, AHM/Rivarossi cars, which are pretty much all the same. The red looks like the Bachman red which is way far off, that there is no words to describe. The roofs are charcoal, gray/brown or something I can?t describe but definitely not black. I compared the roofs to the N&W cabooses Division Point produced if they were trying to do brown roofs, and they are no match. The roof color doesn?t match any N&W models ever produced that I?ve seen. The under body and end are black and is very good and detailed. Division Point has a reputation of screwing up the paint schemes, like the N&W Blue(?) caboose and VGN caboose red. I am looking forward to the next car, but sure hope they correct the paint. I personally will call Ken or Jack at DP to let them know. I give the car a 10, but the paint a 6. Stephen Rineair crineair at fuse.net From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:23 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Just wondering, where did you buy your M1 for $396? Thanks, John ________________________________ To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:16:22 -0400 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org For those that are waiting for a correct N&W Class BEj Baggage Car (Nos. 110-124) I would recommend waiting for Division Point. The Rail Classic N&W BEj is a very poor rendition of the car so I dumped my after realizing all the problems. The Division Point car should sell around the same price of $396 as the M1 RPO. I have not received my M1?s yet and will give all my take on the red. I just hope they are not the hideous red as the Bachman passenger red. Stephen Another heads up for the O scale VGN modeler. Sunset is doing the VGN AE 2-10-10-2 the end of this year. The O Scale N&W K2a Streamlined is due early 2010. ________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Wed Oct 14 21:27:54 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 21:27:54 -0400 Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Message-ID: <4AD67A9A.10305@vt.edu> Brian: Attached is a photo of the DP M1 RPO in front of a Branchline car (back left) and The Rail Classic car (BMj-back right). I believe Jim Nichols would be the best person in our society to be most accurate on color as his models are some of the best Passenger cars I seen. Maybe our modeling committee should have put stock in Jim?s choice of color since he?s older that dirt And has seen the prototypes. Just kidding Jim (with smile). Let?s hear what other say about the photo. Stephen Rineair [Moderator] See images at following: http://nwhs.org/wiki/tiki-browse_image.php?imageId=63 http://nwhs.org/wiki/tiki-browse_image.php?imageId=64 http://nwhs.org/wiki/tiki-browse_image.php?imageId=65 From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Wed Oct 14 21:50:47 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <69180.11077.qm@web84003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dare I say it again, There is a color chip in the Pullman archives provided to them by the N&W.? It's my understanding it may be possible to get a copy Rodney --- On Wed, 10/14/09, NW Modeling List wrote: From: NW Modeling List Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj To: "'NW Modeling List'" Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 7:45 PM Stephen, ? Same old debate.? When you look at videos or pictures of N&W prototypes the colors go through a range of variation.? As the N&W passenger train passes by the different colors are amazing.? I've pretty much stopped losing sleep over the various colors on models.? If it has more red than PRR Tuscan and stays less red that a fire engine it probably matches one of the cars going by on a N&W passenger consist in the 1950's. ? Ed Painter;? Narrows, VA currently living in Russellville, AR ? From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:45 AM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj ? Mike: I am seriously considering repainting the model, which I feel should not have to be done for the price. Even Tom Dressler, George Hughes, Dean Freytag, Jim Nichols(?) at some of the first conventioneers agreed that the IHC/AHM/Rivarossi Car color is very close (having color paint samples). ?Even the newer Branchline N&W kits are a very good color match. I sure wish our modeling committee could have been at some of the early convention in which the N&W color was discussed In great lengths so that we could get better color quality control. I can handle color variations from model to model, but this is a little too far in left field. I appreciate your suggestion Mike, but not all modelers like to weather their model. It would be nice if the modeling committee would use pervious produced models as a guide and come Reasonably close. Stephen Rineair ? From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:41 PM To: NW Modeling List Subject: Re: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj ? Will you attempt to tone down the red with some black weathering? Mike Rector ? From: NW Modeling List To: NW Modeling List Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 8:00:12 PM Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj I received the Division Point M1 RPO cars today. The car itself looks fantastic! The diaphragms are very well executed, maybe one the best produced yet! The details on the car are very well done and crisp. The window treatment are excellent with blinds(?) which helps hide the empty interior. There are no lights in the car, but could be added if one prefers. I will leave my as is for now. The color, well let me say it?s some type of maroon, red, pinkish color that doesn?t come close to the Overland, Key, Rail Classic, AHM/Rivarossi cars, which are pretty much all the same. The red looks like the Bachman red which is way far off, that there is no words to describe. The roofs are charcoal, gray/brown or something I can?t describe but definitely not black. I compared the roofs to the N&W cabooses Division Point produced if they were trying to do brown roofs, and they are no match. The roof color doesn?t match any N&W models ever produced that I?ve seen. The under body and end are black and is very good and detailed. Division Point has a reputation of screwing up the paint schemes, like the N&W Blue(?) caboose and VGN caboose red. I am looking forward to the next car, but sure hope they correct the paint. ?I personally will call Ken or Jack at DP to let them know. I give the car a 10, but the? paint a 6. Stephen Rineair crineair at fuse.net ? From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:23 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj ? Just wondering, where did you buy your M1 for $396? Thanks, John ? To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:16:22 -0400 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org For those that are waiting for? a correct N&W Class BEj Baggage Car (Nos. 110-124) I would recommend waiting for Division Point. The Rail Classic N&W BEj is a very? poor rendition of the car so I dumped my after realizing all the problems. The Division Point car should sell around the same price of $396 as the M1 RPO. I have not received my M1?s yet and will give all my take on the red.? I just hope they are not the hideous red as the Bachman passenger red. Stephen ? ? Another heads up for the O scale VGN modeler.? Sunset is doing the VGN AE 2-10-10-2 the end of this year. The O Scale N&W K2a Streamlined is due early 2010. ? ? ? Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ________________________________________ NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org To change your subscription go to http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-modeling-list Browse the NW-Modeling-List archives at http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-modeling-list/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Wed Oct 14 22:36:05 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:36:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <18291.96031.qm@web180502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have to agree with Ed on the variation in N&W passenger red. If you look at most movies of the N&W trains look at the differences in the car sides and the doors on baggage & RPO cars. The doors always look like a different shade than the rest of the cars. I attribute it to two things: paint does different things on wood & metal which could explain SOME doors and also the differences in going through a car washer where the rotary brushes don't press as hard on the doors. ? Paint also varied from manufacturer to manufacturer and from batch to batch.. Application, preparation and service also made a difference. ? I paint my N&W pasenger cars with several shades of Tuscan and even vary those colors with addition of white, gray or black. They all look good behind a J! ? My 2?, Roger Huber --- On Wed, 10/14/09, NW Modeling List wrote: From: NW Modeling List Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj To: "'NW Modeling List'" Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 11:45 PM Stephen, ? Same old debate.? When you look at videos or pictures of N&W prototypes the colors go through a range of variation.? As the N&W passenger train passes by the different colors are amazing.? I've pretty much stopped losing sleep over the various colors on models.? If it has more red than PRR Tuscan and stays less red that a fire engine it probably matches one of the cars going by on a N&W passenger consist in the 1950's. ? Ed Painter;? Narrows, VA currently living in Russellville, AR ? From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:45 AM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj ? Mike: I am seriously considering repainting the model, which I feel should not have to be done for the price. Even Tom Dressler, George Hughes, Dean Freytag, Jim Nichols(?) at some of the first conventioneers agreed that the IHC/AHM/Rivarossi Car color is very close (having color paint samples). ?Even the newer Branchline N&W kits are a very good color match. I sure wish our modeling committee could have been at some of the early convention in which the N&W color was discussed In great lengths so that we could get better color quality control. I can handle color variations from model to model, but this is a little too far in left field. I appreciate your suggestion Mike, but not all modelers like to weather their model. It would be nice if the modeling committee would use pervious produced models as a guide and come Reasonably close. Stephen Rineair ? From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:41 PM To: NW Modeling List Subject: Re: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj ? Will you attempt to tone down the red with some black weathering? Mike Rector ? From: NW Modeling List To: NW Modeling List Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 8:00:12 PM Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj I received the Division Point M1 RPO cars today. The car itself looks fantastic! The diaphragms are very well executed, maybe one the best produced yet! The details on the car are very well done and crisp. The window treatment are excellent with blinds(?) which helps hide the empty interior. There are no lights in the car, but could be added if one prefers. I will leave my as is for now. The color, well let me say it?s some type of maroon, red, pinkish color that doesn?t come close to the Overland, Key, Rail Classic, AHM/Rivarossi cars, which are pretty much all the same. The red looks like the Bachman red which is way far off, that there is no words to describe. The roofs are charcoal, gray/brown or something I can?t describe but definitely not black. I compared the roofs to the N&W cabooses Division Point produced if they were trying to do brown roofs, and they are no match. The roof color doesn?t match any N&W models ever produced that I?ve seen. The under body and end are black and is very good and detailed. Division Point has a reputation of screwing up the paint schemes, like the N&W Blue(?) caboose and VGN caboose red. I am looking forward to the next car, but sure hope they correct the paint. ?I personally will call Ken or Jack at DP to let them know. I give the car a 10, but the? paint a 6. Stephen Rineair crineair at fuse.net ? From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:23 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj ? Just wondering, where did you buy your M1 for $396? Thanks, John ? To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:16:22 -0400 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org For those that are waiting for? a correct N&W Class BEj Baggage Car (Nos. 110-124) I would recommend waiting for Division Point. The Rail Classic N&W BEj is a very? poor rendition of the car so I dumped my after realizing all the problems. The Division Point car should sell around the same price of $396 as the M1 RPO. I have not received my M1?s yet and will give all my take on the red.? I just hope they are not the hideous red as the Bachman passenger red. Stephen ? ? Another heads up for the O scale VGN modeler.? Sunset is doing the VGN AE 2-10-10-2 the end of this year. The O Scale N&W K2a Streamlined is due early 2010. ? ? ? Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ________________________________________ NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org To change your subscription go to http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-modeling-list Browse the NW-Modeling-List archives at http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-modeling-list/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Thu Oct 15 01:49:27 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 22:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj In-Reply-To: <4AD67A9A.10305@vt.edu> References: <4AD67A9A.10305@vt.edu> Message-ID: <193020.75231.qm@web55103.mail.re4.yahoo.com> That color doesn't look all that bad, really. Maybe a little light? Here's a pic of the Arrow. For anyone who remembers, how accurate is the color in this picture? http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee190/miketrac/Norfolk%20and%20Western/?action=view¤t=PowhatanArrowobservation.jpg Mike Rector ________________________________ From: NW Modeling List To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sent: Wed, October 14, 2009 9:27:54 PM Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Brian: Attached is a photo of the DP M1 RPO in front of a Branchline car (back left) and The Rail Classic car (BMj-back right). I believe Jim Nichols would be the best person in our society to be most accurate on color as his models are some of the best Passenger cars I seen. Maybe our modeling committee should have put stock in Jim?s choice of color since he?s older that dirt And has seen the prototypes. Just kidding Jim (with smile). Let?s hear what other say about the photo. Stephen Rineair [Moderator] See images at following: http://nwhs.org/wiki/tiki-browse_image.php?imageId=63 http://nwhs.org/wiki/tiki-browse_image.php?imageId=64 http://nwhs.org/wiki/tiki-browse_image.php?imageId=65 ________________________________________ NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org To change your subscription go to http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-modeling-list Browse the NW-Modeling-List archives at http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-modeling-list/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Wed Oct 14 20:34:39 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:34:39 -0400 Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj In-Reply-To: References: <00d701ca4c04$b45d3d30$1d17b790$@net> <010601ca4c61$4d4c86c0$e7e59440$@net> <342192.39995.qm@web55103.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <000901ca4cd4$83ccb850$8b6628f0$@net> Message-ID: <003b01ca4d2f$47b55bf0$d72013d0$@net> ED: You are correct photos and videos range in different shades of red. What your forgetting is that the photos and video show Cars in different time periods in the same consist as some are newer and some are older. Thus color variation of usage and fading, etc. Models are produced as built. Thus as delivered paint schemes. Yes, color is an old debate, but take note how far out the red Is that I have forward to the forum. Stephen Rineair From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 7:46 PM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Stephen, Same old debate. When you look at videos or pictures of N&W prototypes the colors go through a range of variation. As the N&W passenger train passes by the different colors are amazing. I've pretty much stopped losing sleep over the various colors on models. If it has more red than PRR Tuscan and stays less red that a fire engine it probably matches one of the cars going by on a N&W passenger consist in the 1950's. Ed Painter; Narrows, VA currently living in Russellville, AR From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:45 AM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Mike: I am seriously considering repainting the model, which I feel should not have to be done for the price. Even Tom Dressler, George Hughes, Dean Freytag, Jim Nichols(?) at some of the first conventioneers agreed that the IHC/AHM/Rivarossi Car color is very close (having color paint samples). Even the newer Branchline N&W kits are a very good color match. I sure wish our modeling committee could have been at some of the early convention in which the N&W color was discussed In great lengths so that we could get better color quality control. I can handle color variations from model to model, but this is a little too far in left field. I appreciate your suggestion Mike, but not all modelers like to weather their model. It would be nice if the modeling committee would use pervious produced models as a guide and come Reasonably close. Stephen Rineair From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:41 PM To: NW Modeling List Subject: Re: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Will you attempt to tone down the red with some black weathering? Mike Rector _____ From: NW Modeling List To: NW Modeling List Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 8:00:12 PM Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj I received the Division Point M1 RPO cars today. The car itself looks fantastic! The diaphragms are very well executed, maybe one the best produced yet! The details on the car are very well done and crisp. The window treatment are excellent with blinds(?) which helps hide the empty interior. There are no lights in the car, but could be added if one prefers. I will leave my as is for now. The color, well let me say it?s some type of maroon, red, pinkish color that doesn?t come close to the Overland, Key, Rail Classic, AHM/Rivarossi cars, which are pretty much all the same. The red looks like the Bachman red which is way far off, that there is no words to describe. The roofs are charcoal, gray/brown or something I can?t describe but definitely not black. I compared the roofs to the N&W cabooses Division Point produced if they were trying to do brown roofs, and they are no match. The roof color doesn?t match any N&W models ever produced that I?ve seen. The under body and end are black and is very good and detailed. Division Point has a reputation of screwing up the paint schemes, like the N&W Blue(?) caboose and VGN caboose red. I am looking forward to the next car, but sure hope they correct the paint. I personally will call Ken or Jack at DP to let them know. I give the car a 10, but the paint a 6. Stephen Rineair crineair at fuse.net From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:23 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Just wondering, where did you buy your M1 for $396? Thanks, John _____ To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:16:22 -0400 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org For those that are waiting for a correct N&W Class BEj Baggage Car (Nos. 110-124) I would recommend waiting for Division Point. The Rail Classic N&W BEj is a very poor rendition of the car so I dumped my after realizing all the problems. The Division Point car should sell around the same price of $396 as the M1 RPO. I have not received my M1?s yet and will give all my take on the red. I just hope they are not the hideous red as the Bachman passenger red. Stephen Another heads up for the O scale VGN modeler. Sunset is doing the VGN AE 2-10-10-2 the end of this year. The O Scale N&W K2a Streamlined is due early 2010. _____ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Wed Oct 14 21:35:05 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:35:05 -0500 Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj In-Reply-To: References: <00d701ca4c04$b45d3d30$1d17b790$@net> <010601ca4c61$4d4c86c0$e7e59440$@net> <342192.39995.qm@web55103.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <000901ca4cd4$83ccb850$8b6628f0$@net> Message-ID: <003301ca4d37$b9385fe0$2ba91fa0$@net> I?m sorry, Steve, but you can take my name off that list. I never said any such thing. I?m not particularly happy with the Branchline color either. I can?t speak for the others, but I seem to remember that Dressler kept looking for a better match than the IHC/AHM/Rivarossi cars. BTW, the current IHC color is terrible! Haven?t seen the Division Point M1, so can?t comment. But I Have been at this long enough to realize that the choice of a good N&W red is highly subjective. You probably wouldn?t like the way I paint mine either. Jim Nichols Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Mike: I am seriously considering repainting the model, which I feel should not have to be done for the price. Even Tom Dressler, George Hughes, Dean Freytag, Jim Nichols(?) at some of the first conventioneers agreed that the IHC/AHM/Rivarossi Car color is very close (having color paint samples). Even the newer Branchline N&W kits are a very good color match. I sure wish our modeling committee could have been at some of the early convention in which the N&W color was discussed In great lengths so that we could get better color quality control. I can handle color variations from model to model, but this is a little too far in left field. I appreciate your suggestion Mike, but not all modelers like to weather their model. It would be nice if the modeling committee would use pervious produced models as a guide and come Reasonably close. Stephen Rineair crineair at fuse.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Wed Oct 14 21:59:04 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:59:04 -0500 Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj In-Reply-To: <4AD67A9A.10305@vt.edu> References: <4AD67A9A.10305@vt.edu> Message-ID: <003801ca4d3b$13019340$3904b9c0$@net> To my eye, that is not a bad shade of red. I think I see what they are trying to do with the roof color, but it is a little too light. Easily changed! And the battery box covers would have been red if the ends were red, but black for them came with the black end era.(mid to late '50's) The Rail Classic car is far too dark. If I were to repaint any of the three, that is the one I would repaint. And, yes, I am older than dirt. Most of those other names Steve put out in a previous post are now dead, and they were younger than me. But thanks for the compliment, Steve! Jim Nichols -----Original Message----- From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:28 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Brian: Attached is a photo of the DP M1 RPO in front of a Branchline car (back left) and The Rail Classic car (BMj-back right). I believe Jim Nichols would be the best person in our society to be most accurate on color as his models are some of the best Passenger cars I seen. Maybe our modeling committee should have put stock in Jim's choice of color since he's older that dirt And has seen the prototypes. Just kidding Jim (with smile). Let's hear what other say about the photo. Stephen Rineair [Moderator] See images at following: http://nwhs.org/wiki/tiki-browse_image.php?imageId=63 http://nwhs.org/wiki/tiki-browse_image.php?imageId=64 http://nwhs.org/wiki/tiki-browse_image.php?imageId=65 ________________________________________ NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org To change your subscription go to http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-modeling-list Browse the NW-Modeling-List archives at http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-modeling-list/ From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Wed Oct 14 22:50:45 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <358377.76650.qm@web180113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Ed: you stated the obvious regarding the color of the red. The photo I supplied DP was of an M1 freshly painted. What red DP choose to paint the car is their business. If anyone wants to see the M1 models in a properly lit photo go to www.DivisionPoint.com. There are two photos of the painted models under the N&W heavyweight pass. car listing. Also if someone is looking for a blue version of a BEj ?photo one can be found on page 5 of Jim Nichols book - N&W?Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment. Any serious N&W modeler will have a copy of Jim's book and would have known that a photo of the BEj was within. ?Also railway postal cars did not have "venetian blinds" but were required to have barred windows account the carrying of certified mail containing cash and other valuables. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Harold Davenport --- On Wed, 10/14/09, NW Modeling List wrote: From: NW Modeling List Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj To: "'NW Modeling List'" Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 7:45 PM Stephen, ? Same old debate.? When you look at videos or pictures of N&W prototypes the colors go through a range of variation.? As the N&W passenger train passes by the different colors are amazing.? I've pretty much stopped losing sleep over the various colors on models.? If it has more red than PRR Tuscan and stays less red that a fire engine it probably matches one of the cars going by on a N&W passenger consist in the 1950's. ? Ed Painter;? Narrows, VA currently living in Russellville, AR ? From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:45 AM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj ? Mike: I am seriously considering repainting the model, which I feel should not have to be done for the price. Even Tom Dressler, George Hughes, Dean Freytag, Jim Nichols(?) at some of the first conventioneers agreed that the IHC/AHM/Rivarossi Car color is very close (having color paint samples). ?Even the newer Branchline N&W kits are a very good color match. I sure wish our modeling committee could have been at some of the early convention in which the N&W color was discussed In great lengths so that we could get better color quality control. I can handle color variations from model to model, but this is a little too far in left field. I appreciate your suggestion Mike, but not all modelers like to weather their model. It would be nice if the modeling committee would use pervious produced models as a guide and come Reasonably close. Stephen Rineair ? From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:41 PM To: NW Modeling List Subject: Re: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj ? Will you attempt to tone down the red with some black weathering? Mike Rector ? From: NW Modeling List To: NW Modeling List Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 8:00:12 PM Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj I received the Division Point M1 RPO cars today. The car itself looks fantastic! The diaphragms are very well executed, maybe one the best produced yet! The details on the car are very well done and crisp. The window treatment are excellent with blinds(?) which helps hide the empty interior. There are no lights in the car, but could be added if one prefers. I will leave my as is for now. The color, well let me say it?s some type of maroon, red, pinkish color that doesn?t come close to the Overland, Key, Rail Classic, AHM/Rivarossi cars, which are pretty much all the same. The red looks like the Bachman red which is way far off, that there is no words to describe. The roofs are charcoal, gray/brown or something I can?t describe but definitely not black. I compared the roofs to the N&W cabooses Division Point produced if they were trying to do brown roofs, and they are no match. The roof color doesn?t match any N&W models ever produced that I?ve seen. The under body and end are black and is very good and detailed. Division Point has a reputation of screwing up the paint schemes, like the N&W Blue(?) caboose and VGN caboose red. I am looking forward to the next car, but sure hope they correct the paint. ?I personally will call Ken or Jack at DP to let them know. I give the car a 10, but the? paint a 6. Stephen Rineair crineair at fuse.net ? From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:23 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj ? Just wondering, where did you buy your M1 for $396? Thanks, John ? To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:16:22 -0400 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org For those that are waiting for? a correct N&W Class BEj Baggage Car (Nos. 110-124) I would recommend waiting for Division Point. The Rail Classic N&W BEj is a very? poor rendition of the car so I dumped my after realizing all the problems. The Division Point car should sell around the same price of $396 as the M1 RPO. I have not received my M1?s yet and will give all my take on the red.? I just hope they are not the hideous red as the Bachman passenger red. Stephen ? ? Another heads up for the O scale VGN modeler.? Sunset is doing the VGN AE 2-10-10-2 the end of this year. The O Scale N&W K2a Streamlined is due early 2010. ? ? ? Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ________________________________________ NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org To change your subscription go to http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-modeling-list Browse the NW-Modeling-List archives at http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-modeling-list/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Thu Oct 15 11:22:32 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:22:32 -0400 Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj In-Reply-To: <003b01ca4d2f$47b55bf0$d72013d0$@net> References: <00d701ca4c04$b45d3d30$1d17b790$@net> <010601ca4c61$4d4c86c0$e7e59440$@net> <342192.39995.qm@web55103.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <000901ca4cd4$83ccb850$8b6628f0$@net> <003b01ca4d2f$47b55bf0$d72013d0$@net> Message-ID: I would not argue that the passenger cars as delivered new from a manufacturer or cars being returned to service after shopping and painting would be far more similar or consistent in color. Yet, when even freshly painted??..a specific paint color will vary due to differences in production batches of paint??.. or based on how heavily of lightly it is applied?? or what color paint or primer is being covered???.. To me in my N&W modeling so long as the color/tint falls within an acceptable range I no longer get too concerned about it. One of the nice things about model railroading is that we are each the CEO of our railway??..and as such can choose and accept whatever we like. Best regards, Ed Painter Narrows, VA - currently living in Russellville, AR From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 7:35 PM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj ED: You are correct photos and videos range in different shades of red. What your forgetting is that the photos and video show Cars in different time periods in the same consist as some are newer and some are older. Thus color variation of usage and fading, etc. Models are produced as built. Thus as delivered paint schemes. Yes, color is an old debate, but take note how far out the red Is that I have forward to the forum. Stephen Rineair From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 7:46 PM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Stephen, Same old debate. When you look at videos or pictures of N&W prototypes the colors go through a range of variation. As the N&W passenger train passes by the different colors are amazing. I've pretty much stopped losing sleep over the various colors on models. If it has more red than PRR Tuscan and stays less red that a fire engine it probably matches one of the cars going by on a N&W passenger consist in the 1950's. Ed Painter; Narrows, VA currently living in Russellville, AR From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:45 AM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Mike: I am seriously considering repainting the model, which I feel should not have to be done for the price. Even Tom Dressler, George Hughes, Dean Freytag, Jim Nichols(?) at some of the first conventioneers agreed that the IHC/AHM/Rivarossi Car color is very close (having color paint samples). Even the newer Branchline N&W kits are a very good color match. I sure wish our modeling committee could have been at some of the early convention in which the N&W color was discussed In great lengths so that we could get better color quality control. I can handle color variations from model to model, but this is a little too far in left field. I appreciate your suggestion Mike, but not all modelers like to weather their model. It would be nice if the modeling committee would use pervious produced models as a guide and come Reasonably close. Stephen Rineair From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:41 PM To: NW Modeling List Subject: Re: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Will you attempt to tone down the red with some black weathering? Mike Rector ________________________________ From: NW Modeling List To: NW Modeling List Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 8:00:12 PM Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj I received the Division Point M1 RPO cars today. The car itself looks fantastic! The diaphragms are very well executed, maybe one the best produced yet! The details on the car are very well done and crisp. The window treatment are excellent with blinds(?) which helps hide the empty interior. There are no lights in the car, but could be added if one prefers. I will leave my as is for now. The color, well let me say it?s some type of maroon, red, pinkish color that doesn?t come close to the Overland, Key, Rail Classic, AHM/Rivarossi cars, which are pretty much all the same. The red looks like the Bachman red which is way far off, that there is no words to describe. The roofs are charcoal, gray/brown or something I can?t describe but definitely not black. I compared the roofs to the N&W cabooses Division Point produced if they were trying to do brown roofs, and they are no match. The roof color doesn?t match any N&W models ever produced that I?ve seen. The under body and end are black and is very good and detailed. Division Point has a reputation of screwing up the paint schemes, like the N&W Blue(?) caboose and VGN caboose red. I am looking forward to the next car, but sure hope they correct the paint. I personally will call Ken or Jack at DP to let them know. I give the car a 10, but the paint a 6. Stephen Rineair crineair at fuse.net From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:23 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Just wondering, where did you buy your M1 for $396? Thanks, John ________________________________ To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:16:22 -0400 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org For those that are waiting for a correct N&W Class BEj Baggage Car (Nos. 110-124) I would recommend waiting for Division Point. The Rail Classic N&W BEj is a very poor rendition of the car so I dumped my after realizing all the problems. The Division Point car should sell around the same price of $396 as the M1 RPO. I have not received my M1?s yet and will give all my take on the red. I just hope they are not the hideous red as the Bachman passenger red. Stephen Another heads up for the O scale VGN modeler. Sunset is doing the VGN AE 2-10-10-2 the end of this year. The O Scale N&W K2a Streamlined is due early 2010. ________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Thu Oct 15 13:30:00 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:30:00 -0400 Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj In-Reply-To: References: <00d701ca4c04$b45d3d30$1d17b790$@net> <010601ca4c61$4d4c86c0$e7e59440$@net><342192.39995.qm@web55103.mail.re4.yahoo.com><000901ca4cd4$83ccb850$8b6628f0$@net><003b01ca4d2f$47b55bf0$d72013d0$@net> Message-ID: Many other rr historical groups have 'paint committees' that sweat and struggle to derive a 'standard range of paint colors for MODELS' based on the paint information and chips that they scrounge or whatever from the prototype. The intent is to provide a rational pick for manufacturers to use. Yes, the selections intent to fudge in lighter colors for smaller models, HO and N, and some compensation for lighting over a layout. Do we have any members here that want to volunteer for this committee? Send your reply to rolih at nwhs.org. Gary Rolih _____ From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:23 AM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj I would not argue that the passenger cars as delivered new from a manufacturer or cars being returned to service after shopping and painting would be far more similar or consistent in color. Yet, when even freshly painted....a specific paint color will vary due to differences in production batches of paint.... or based on how heavily of lightly it is applied.. or what color paint or primer is being covered..... To me in my N&W modeling so long as the color/tint falls within an acceptable range I no longer get too concerned about it. One of the nice things about model railroading is that we are each the CEO of our railway....and as such can choose and accept whatever we like. Best regards, Ed Painter Narrows, VA - currently living in Russellville, AR From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 7:35 PM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj ED: You are correct photos and videos range in different shades of red. What your forgetting is that the photos and video show Cars in different time periods in the same consist as some are newer and some are older. Thus color variation of usage and fading, etc. Models are produced as built. Thus as delivered paint schemes. Yes, color is an old debate, but take note how far out the red Is that I have forward to the forum. Stephen Rineair From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 7:46 PM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Stephen, Same old debate. When you look at videos or pictures of N&W prototypes the colors go through a range of variation. As the N&W passenger train passes by the different colors are amazing. I've pretty much stopped losing sleep over the various colors on models. If it has more red than PRR Tuscan and stays less red that a fire engine it probably matches one of the cars going by on a N&W passenger consist in the 1950's. Ed Painter; Narrows, VA currently living in Russellville, AR From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:45 AM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Mike: I am seriously considering repainting the model, which I feel should not have to be done for the price. Even Tom Dressler, George Hughes, Dean Freytag, Jim Nichols(?) at some of the first conventioneers agreed that the IHC/AHM/Rivarossi Car color is very close (having color paint samples). Even the newer Branchline N&W kits are a very good color match. I sure wish our modeling committee could have been at some of the early convention in which the N&W color was discussed In great lengths so that we could get better color quality control. I can handle color variations from model to model, but this is a little too far in left field. I appreciate your suggestion Mike, but not all modelers like to weather their model. It would be nice if the modeling committee would use pervious produced models as a guide and come Reasonably close. Stephen Rineair From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:41 PM To: NW Modeling List Subject: Re: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Will you attempt to tone down the red with some black weathering? Mike Rector _____ From: NW Modeling List To: NW Modeling List Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 8:00:12 PM Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj I received the Division Point M1 RPO cars today. The car itself looks fantastic! The diaphragms are very well executed, maybe one the best produced yet! The details on the car are very well done and crisp. The window treatment are excellent with blinds(?) which helps hide the empty interior. There are no lights in the car, but could be added if one prefers. I will leave my as is for now. The color, well let me say it's some type of maroon, red, pinkish color that doesn't come close to the Overland, Key, Rail Classic, AHM/Rivarossi cars, which are pretty much all the same. The red looks like the Bachman red which is way far off, that there is no words to describe. The roofs are charcoal, gray/brown or something I can't describe but definitely not black. I compared the roofs to the N&W cabooses Division Point produced if they were trying to do brown roofs, and they are no match. The roof color doesn't match any N&W models ever produced that I've seen. The under body and end are black and is very good and detailed. Division Point has a reputation of screwing up the paint schemes, like the N&W Blue(?) caboose and VGN caboose red. I am looking forward to the next car, but sure hope they correct the paint. I personally will call Ken or Jack at DP to let them know. I give the car a 10, but the paint a 6. Stephen Rineair crineair at fuse.net From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:23 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Just wondering, where did you buy your M1 for $396? Thanks, John _____ To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:16:22 -0400 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org For those that are waiting for a correct N&W Class BEj Baggage Car (Nos. 110-124) I would recommend waiting for Division Point. The Rail Classic N&W BEj is a very poor rendition of the car so I dumped my after realizing all the problems. The Division Point car should sell around the same price of $396 as the M1 RPO. I have not received my M1's yet and will give all my take on the red. I just hope they are not the hideous red as the Bachman passenger red. Stephen Another heads up for the O scale VGN modeler. Sunset is doing the VGN AE 2-10-10-2 the end of this year. The O Scale N&W K2a Streamlined is due early 2010. _____ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Thu Oct 15 13:50:55 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 12:50:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DP Passenger Cars Message-ID: <25697911.205190.1255629055994.JavaMail.root@vms076.mailsrvcs.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Thu Oct 15 18:06:11 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 17:06:11 -0500 Subject: DP Passenger Cars In-Reply-To: <25697911.205190.1255629055994.JavaMail.root@vms076.mailsrvcs.net> References: <25697911.205190.1255629055994.JavaMail.root@vms076.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <001901ca4de3$b4fffa30$1effee90$@net> The alternative, of course, is for each modeler to paint his own. I do that, but obviously a lot of people don?t want to or don?t feel competent to do so. We could have a self-appointed ?paint? committee; but my guess is that they wouldn?t be able to build consensus either. Otherwise, why has this argument gone on for twenty five years? We just have to live with it, and rejoice when somebody paints a model in a shade which looks good to us. The color on the DP car could be better, but I don?t think it is unacceptable. But then, I don?t intend to pay that high a price for an M1. I will build one with plastic and paint it with my personal version of N&W Tuscan. BTW, the detail work on the DP model is excellent. Jim Nichols From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:51 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: DP Passenger Cars There is no question the NWHS Modeling Committee should be flogged then fired for not getting the color "right". Again! But, then, we wouldn't have the cars at all without their efforts... What good is having the cars if they can't get the paint "right"? But they provided the data to the importer.... Yeah, but what good is that if the builder ignores it or gets it wrong! Yada, yada, yada.... Boring! ***** Some builders are committed to accuracy and are willing to work with folks; some are not. Rich Yoder worked tirelessly with a group of members to get his VGN gons as "right" as possible and should be praised for so doing. Sunset is doing the same thing for its VGN AE project. But at the end of the day, the projects belong to the vendors, not to us. We vote with our pocket books. Just a thought: if we can't agree on N&W Tuscan...and I have yet to see a consensus...then how is a manufacturer to know? (Don't tell me color drift cards, because there is a big difference between that color...pick a color...and the same color on an HO model under indoor lighting.) The Pennsy group has worked for years, without a conclusion, trying to build consensus on scale mixes for PRR Tuscan, Brunswick Green, and Freight Car Color. At the end of the day, ya' likes what ya' likes. I'm just thrilled that in 2001 a builder is willing to tackle something as obscure as a one-off class of N&W RPO! Now about those VGN heavyweights.... Bill McClure -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Fri Oct 16 10:54:00 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 07:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atlas announces N scale offset 2 bay hoppers in N&W In-Reply-To: <001901ca4de3$b4fffa30$1effee90$@net> Message-ID: <622163.91617.qm@web38705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Atlas has announced their 2 bay offset hopper in the N&W 1963-1970 "hamburger" scheme: http://www.atlasrr.com/NFreight/n2bayoffsethopper2.htm These represent class H-51 ex-P&WV cars built in 1947 - acquired by N&W in the October 1964 merger. Cars in this class were off the roster by the early 1970s (per the Dow book). Based on the artwork and recent Atlas N&W hopper offerings, I expect the printing and lettering to be crisp and accurate. I don't think I mentioned this before, but the next run of Atlas N scale Alco C420s will be offered in N&W: http://download.atlasrr.com/Images/HOLocomotives/hoc420/0309/C-420%20Ph2%20HN%20N&W.jpg See the Atlas website for details. Mark Peele Catonsville, MD From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Fri Oct 16 14:17:56 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 14:17:56 -0400 Subject: DP Passenger Cars In-Reply-To: <001901ca4de3$b4fffa30$1effee90$@net> References: <25697911.205190.1255629055994.JavaMail.root@vms076.mailsrvcs.net> <001901ca4de3$b4fffa30$1effee90$@net> Message-ID: <5EB6A37DCA06496091178BB97283C6F3@071927350f> Jim is right as is Bill McClure. The best that a paint committee can do is provide a model standard color to manufacturers so, hopefully, the models all have a similar color. It may or may not be prototypical- and it shouldn't be due to lighting differences from sunlight to indoor lighting. Is this what the modeling community is seeking? What do you think? Gary Rolih Secretary N&WHS _____ From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:06 PM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: DP Passenger Cars The alternative, of course, is for each modeler to paint his own. I do that, but obviously a lot of people don't want to or don't feel competent to do so. We could have a self-appointed "paint" committee; but my guess is that they wouldn't be able to build consensus either. Otherwise, why has this argument gone on for twenty five years? We just have to live with it, and rejoice when somebody paints a model in a shade which looks good to us. The color on the DP car could be better, but I don't think it is unacceptable. But then, I don't intend to pay that high a price for an M1. I will build one with plastic and paint it with my personal version of N&W Tuscan. BTW, the detail work on the DP model is excellent. Jim Nichols From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:51 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: DP Passenger Cars There is no question the NWHS Modeling Committee should be flogged then fired for not getting the color "right". Again! But, then, we wouldn't have the cars at all without their efforts... What good is having the cars if they can't get the paint "right"? But they provided the data to the importer.... Yeah, but what good is that if the builder ignores it or gets it wrong! Yada, yada, yada.... Boring! ***** Some builders are committed to accuracy and are willing to work with folks; some are not. Rich Yoder worked tirelessly with a group of members to get his VGN gons as "right" as possible and should be praised for so doing. Sunset is doing the same thing for its VGN AE project. But at the end of the day, the projects belong to the vendors, not to us. We vote with our pocket books. Just a thought: if we can't agree on N&W Tuscan...and I have yet to see a consensus...then how is a manufacturer to know? (Don't tell me color drift cards, because there is a big difference between that color...pick a color...and the same color on an HO model under indoor lighting.) The Pennsy group has worked for years, without a conclusion, trying to build consensus on scale mixes for PRR Tuscan, Brunswick Green, and Freight Car Color. At the end of the day, ya' likes what ya' likes. I'm just thrilled that in 2001 a builder is willing to tackle something as obscure as a one-off class of N&W RPO! Now about those VGN heavyweights.... Bill McClure -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Fri Oct 16 14:39:49 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 14:39:49 -0400 Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj References: <4AD67A9A.10305@vt.edu> <193020.75231.qm@web55103.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <12E31976591C405BB47D20F285D8AAA7@Jimmy> "That color doesn't look all that bad, really. Maybe a little light? Here's a pic of the Arrow. For anyone who remembers, how accurate is the color in this picture? http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee190/miketrac/Norfolk%20and%20Western/?action=view¤t=PowhatanArrowobservation.jpg Mike Rector" Mike, WOW! Nobody could get anything from that photo, there must be several shades of red just in the observation car alone. Jimmy Lisle -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Fri Oct 16 09:10:58 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 09:10:58 -0400 Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj References: <358377.76650.qm@web180113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ee01ca4e62$1a34f440$4e9edcc0$@net> Harold: As you stated, you supplied the photo of a freshly painted M1, is the color of the roof supposed to be brown or black? Did DP get it correct according to your photo? Second, if you are referring to me about needing a blue version of a BEj, you should have read my post. I need a blue version of a BMj If one is painting an N&W blue locomotive, most modelers use C&O blue, SF blue, B&O blue, or dark blue. Please note! All of these blues are very close in the spectrum. The reds that our society wants to consider acceptable are at one end of the red spectrum to the other. It is common sense that we as a society can at least narrow the red spectrum. The DP cars are on the far end of the spectrum of maroon/red/pink. There will always be personal choices of shades of red as there are shades of the blue mentioned above. As for a paint committee, isn?t that what the model committee is responsible for also? Paint is part of the model. What do you suggest to be done for the next car by DP? I expect variations from manufacturers to manufacturers. If we can get the blues schemes close to each other, why can?t we get the reds and be happy that they?re just close together? As far as the lighting of my photos of the models, they were taken outside in natural light. The DP photos are poor examples of the model showing shadows from dark to light. One last thing, remember I stated that the color was my take on the model. Other people are certainly allowed to like or dislike it as they please. Stephen Rineair Ed: you stated the obvious regarding the color of the red. The photo I supplied DP was of an M1 freshly painted. What red DP choose to paint the car is their business. If anyone wants to see the M1 models in a properly lit photo go to www.DivisionPoint.com. There are two photos of the painted models under the N&W heavyweight pass. car listing. Also if someone is looking for a blue version of a BEj photo one can be found on page 5 of Jim Nichols book - N&W Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment. Any serious N&W modeler will have a copy of Jim's book and would have known that a photo of the BEj was within. Also railway postal cars did not have "venetian blinds" but were required to have barred windows account the carrying of certified mail containing cash and other valuables. Harold Davenport --- On Wed, 10/14/09, NW Modeling List wrote: From: NW Modeling List Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj To: "'NW Modeling List'" Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 7:45 PM Stephen, Same old debate. When you look at videos or pictures of N&W prototypes the colors go through a range of variation. As the N&W passenger train passes by the different colors are amazing. I've pretty much stopped losing sleep over the various colors on models. If it has more red than PRR Tuscan and stays less red that a fire engine it probably matches one of the cars going by on a N&W passenger consist in the 1950's. Ed Painter; Narrows, VA currently living in Russellville, AR From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:45 AM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Mike: I am seriously considering repainting the model, which I feel should not have to be done for the price. Even Tom Dressler, George Hughes, Dean Freytag, Jim Nichols(?) at some of the first conventioneers agreed that the IHC/AHM/Rivarossi Car color is very close (having color paint samples). Even the newer Branchline N&W kits are a very good color match. I sure wish our modeling committee could have been at some of the early convention in which the N&W color was discussed In great lengths so that we could get better color quality control. I can handle color variations from model to model, but this is a little too far in left field. I appreciate your suggestion Mike, but not all modelers like to weather their model. It would be nice if the modeling committee would use pervious produced models as a guide and come Reasonably close. Stephen Rineair From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:41 PM To: NW Modeling List Subject: Re: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Will you attempt to tone down the red with some black weathering? Mike Rector _____ From: NW Modeling List To: NW Modeling List Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 8:00:12 PM Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj I received the Division Point M1 RPO cars today. The car itself looks fantastic! The diaphragms are very well executed, maybe one the best produced yet! The details on the car are very well done and crisp. The window treatment are excellent with blinds(?) which helps hide the empty interior. There are no lights in the car, but could be added if one prefers. I will leave my as is for now. The color, well let me say it?s some type of maroon, red, pinkish color that doesn?t come close to the Overland, Key, Rail Classic, AHM/Rivarossi cars, which are pretty much all the same. The red looks like the Bachman red which is way far off, that there is no words to describe. The roofs are charcoal, gray/brown or something I can?t describe but definitely not black. I compared the roofs to the N&W cabooses Division Point produced if they were trying to do brown roofs, and they are no match. The roof color doesn?t match any N&W models ever produced that I?ve seen. The under body and end are black and is very good and detailed. Division Point has a reputation of screwing up the paint schemes, like the N&W Blue(?) caboose and VGN caboose red. I am looking forward to the next car, but sure hope they correct the paint. I personally will call Ken or Jack at DP to let them know. I give the car a 10, but the paint a 6. Stephen Rineair crineair at fuse.net From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:23 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Just wondering, where did you buy your M1 for $396? Thanks, John _____ To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:16:22 -0400 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org For those that are waiting for a correct N&W Class BEj Baggage Car (Nos. 110-124) I would recommend waiting for Division Point. The Rail Classic N&W BEj is a very poor rendition of the car so I dumped my after realizing all the problems. The Division Point car should sell around the same price of $396 as the M1 RPO. I have not received my M1?s yet and will give all my take on the red. I just hope they are not the hideous red as the Bachman passenger red. Stephen Another heads up for the O scale VGN modeler. Sunset is doing the VGN AE 2-10-10-2 the end of this year. The O Scale N&W K2a Streamlined is due early 2010. _____ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ________________________________________ NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org To change your subscription go to http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-modeling-list Browse the NW-Modeling-List archives at http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-modeling-list/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Fri Oct 16 18:56:48 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 18:56:48 -0400 Subject: DP Passenger Cars In-Reply-To: <25697911.205190.1255629055994.JavaMail.root@vms076.mailsrvcs.net> References: <25697911.205190.1255629055994.JavaMail.root@vms076.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <8CC1CCB1388AED0-6060-A283@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> The floggings will continue until the morale improves? That'll happen sooner than unanimity on N&W Tuscan. (Or Pullman Green.) Fortarters, we'd have to have unanimity on lighting conditions for each shade. Jeff Cornelius -----Original Message----- From: NW Modeling List To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sent: Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:50 pm Subject: DP Passenger Cars There is no question the NWHS Modeling Committee should be flogged then fired for not getting the color "right". Again! But, then, we wouldn't have the cars at all without their efforts... What good is having the cars if they can't get the paint "right"? But they provided the data to the importer.... Yeah, but what good is that if the builder ignores it or gets it wrong! Yada, yada, yada.... Boring! ***** Some builders are committed to accuracy and are willing to work with folks; some are not. Rich Yoder worked tirelessly with a group of members to get his VGN gons as "right" as possible and should be praised for so doing. Sunset is doing the same thing for its VGN AE project. But at the end of the day, the projects belong to the vendors, not to us. We vote with our pocket books. Just a thought: if we can't agree on N&W Tuscan...and I have yet to see a consensus...then how is a manufacturer to know? (Don't tell me color drift cards, because there is a big difference between that color...pick a color...and the same color on an HO model under indoor lighting.) The Pennsy group has worked for years, without a conclusion, trying to build consensus on scale mixes for PRR Tuscan, Brunswick Green, and Freight Car Color. At the end of the day, ya' likes what ya' likes. I'm just thrilled that in 2001 a builder is willing to tackle something as obscure as a one-off class of N&W RPO! Now about those VGN heavyweights.... Bill McClure________________________________________ NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org To change your subscription go to http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-modeling-list Browse the NW-Modeling-List archives at http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-modeling-list/ From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Fri Oct 16 21:39:27 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 18:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DP Passenger Cars In-Reply-To: <5EB6A37DCA06496091178BB97283C6F3@071927350f> Message-ID: <979066.63117.qm@web84410.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> What about the "color?card" someone mentioned at the pullman archives.? Wouldn't this be a good place to start? Charlie --- On Fri, 10/16/09, NW Modeling List wrote: From: NW Modeling List Subject: RE: DP Passenger Cars To: "'NW Modeling List'" Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 6:17 PM Jim is right as is Bill McClure.? The best that a paint committee can do is provide a model standard color to manufacturers so, hopefully, the models all have a similar color.? It may or may not be prototypical- and it shouldn?t be due to lighting differences from sunlight to indoor lighting.?? Is this what the modeling community is seeking?? What do you think?? ? Gary Rolih Secretary N&WHS ? ? From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:06 PM To: ' NW Modeling List ' Subject: RE: DP Passenger Cars ? The alternative, of course, is for each modeler to paint his own. I do that, but obviously a lot of people don?t want to or don?t feel competent to do so. We could have a self-appointed ?paint? committee; but my guess is that they wouldn?t be able to build consensus either. Otherwise, why has this argument gone on for twenty five years? We just have to live with it, and rejoice when somebody paints a model in a shade which looks good to us. The color on the DP car could be better, but I don?t think it is unacceptable. But then, I don?t intend to pay that high a price for an M1. I will build one with plastic and paint it with my personal version of N&W Tuscan. BTW, the detail work on the DP model is excellent.???? Jim Nichols ? From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:51 PM To: nw- modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: DP Passenger Cars ? There is no question the NWHS Modeling Committee should be flogged then fired for not getting the color "right". Again! But, then, we wouldn't have the cars at all without their efforts... What good is having the cars if they can't get the paint "right"? But they provided the data to the importer.... Yeah, but what good is that if the builder ignores it or gets it wrong! Yada, yada, yada.... Boring! ***** Some builders are committed to accuracy and are willing to work with folks; some are not. Rich Yoder worked tirelessly with a group of members to get his VGN gons as "right" as possible and should be praised for so doing. Sunset is doing the same thing for its VGN AE project. But at the end of the day, the projects belong to the vendors, not to us. We vote with our pocket books. Just a thought: if we can't agree on N&W Tuscan...and I have yet to see a consensus...then how is a manufacturer to know? (Don't tell me color drift cards, because there is a big difference between that color...pick a color...and the same color on an HO model under indoor lighting.) The Pennsy group has worked for years, without a conclusion, trying to build consensus on scale mixes for PRR Tuscan, Brunswick Green, and Freight Car Color. At the end of the day, ya' likes what ya' likes. I'm just thrilled that in 2001 a builder is willing to tackle something as obscure as a one-off class of N&W RPO! Now about those VGN heavyweights.... Bill McClure -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ________________________________________ NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org To change your subscription go to http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-modeling-list Browse the NW-Modeling-List archives at http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-modeling-list/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sat Oct 17 11:07:14 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 10:07:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DP Passenger Cars Message-ID: <498884269.301936.1255792034292.JavaMail.root@vms170009.mailsrvcs.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sat Oct 17 11:11:56 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:11:56 -0400 Subject: Passenger Car Color References: <979066.63117.qm@web84410.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think Lionel did the N&W Tuscan as well as anyone. Unfortunately, they had a wishy-washy production manager that couldn't make up his mind about windows!!! Jimmy Lisle http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/5395/511ix8.jpg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sat Oct 17 11:26:26 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 10:26:26 -0500 Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj In-Reply-To: <00ee01ca4e62$1a34f440$4e9edcc0$@net> References: <358377.76650.qm@web180113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <00ee01ca4e62$1a34f440$4e9edcc0$@net> Message-ID: <001501ca4f3e$31818960$94849c20$@net> Stephen: If the ends are black, the roof would be black. DP appears to be trying to compensate for the fact that highlight makes a black roof look gray, but they got it a little too light to my taste. As for the blue BMj, I don?t know what you are looking for, but the BMj?s were off the roster 15 years before the first N&W passenger car was painted blue. (They were the ex-PRR cars they bought in 1934). Also, most of the BM?s above BMf had been converted to full baggage-express use by the time of the blue cars (no change in doors, but removal of the RPO apartment), so I doubt that any N&W BM of any class ever got painted blue. You sure you aren?t looking for a blue BEj? Jim Nichols Harold: As you stated, you supplied the photo of a freshly painted M1, is the color of the roof supposed to be brown or black? Did DP get it correct according to your photo? Second, if you are referring to me about needing a blue version of a BEj, you should have read my post. I need a blue version of a BMj Stephen Rineair _____ From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:23 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Just wondering, where did you buy your M1 for $396? Thanks, John _____ To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:16:22 -0400 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org For those that are waiting for a correct N&W Class BEj Baggage Car (Nos. 110-124) I would recommend waiting for Division Point. The Rail Classic N&W BEj is a very poor rendition of the car so I dumped my after realizing all the problems. The Division Point car should sell around the same price of $396 as the M1 RPO. I have not received my M1?s yet and will give all my take on the red. I just hope they are not the hideous red as the Bachman passenger red. Stephen Another heads up for the O scale VGN modeler. Sunset is doing the VGN AE 2-10-10-2 the end of this year. The O Scale N&W K2a Streamlined is due early 2010. _____ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ________________________________________ NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org To change your subscription go to http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-modeling-list Browse the NW-Modeling-List archives at http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-modeling-list/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sat Oct 17 11:37:45 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 10:37:45 -0500 Subject: DP Passenger Cars In-Reply-To: <979066.63117.qm@web84410.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> References: <5EB6A37DCA06496091178BB97283C6F3@071927350f> <979066.63117.qm@web84410.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001a01ca4f3f$c62b4960$5281dc20$@net> Yes, you could start there, but the lack of a color chip is not the problem. As I have said before, the basic problem has to do with the subjective perception of what shade looks too light or too dark on a model. In my experience, most of the factory painted models have been too dark. (Bachmann and now DP are the exceptions. To me, they are a bit too light, although I would prefer that rather than ?too dark.? Again, it is a subjective decision, and no modeling committee would be able to satisfy everyone.) Jim Nichols From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:39 PM To: NW Modeling List Subject: RE: DP Passenger Cars What about the "color card" someone mentioned at the pullman archives. Wouldn't this be a good place to start? Charlie --- On Fri, 10/16/09, NW Modeling List wrote: From: NW Modeling List Subject: RE: DP Passenger Cars To: "'NW Modeling List'" Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 6:17 PM Jim is right as is Bill McClure. The best that a paint committee can do is provide a model standard color to manufacturers so, hopefully, the models all have a similar color. It may or may not be prototypical- and it shouldn?t be due to lighting differences from sunlight to indoor lighting. Is this what the modeling community is seeking? What do you think? Gary Rolih Secretary N&WHS _____ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Fri Oct 16 20:24:02 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:24:02 -0400 Subject: DP Passenger Cars In-Reply-To: <5EB6A37DCA06496091178BB97283C6F3@071927350f> References: <25697911.205190.1255629055994.JavaMail.root@vms076.mailsrvcs.net> <001901ca4de3$b4fffa30$1effee90$@net> <5EB6A37DCA06496091178BB97283C6F3@071927350f> Message-ID: <012101ca4ec0$21201b00$63605100$@net> Gary: How would the paint committee be selected? Stephen From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 2:18 PM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: DP Passenger Cars Jim is right as is Bill McClure. The best that a paint committee can do is provide a model standard color to manufacturers so, hopefully, the models all have a similar color. It may or may not be prototypical- and it shouldn't be due to lighting differences from sunlight to indoor lighting. Is this what the modeling community is seeking? What do you think? Gary Rolih Secretary N&WHS _____ From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:06 PM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: DP Passenger Cars The alternative, of course, is for each modeler to paint his own. I do that, but obviously a lot of people don't want to or don't feel competent to do so. We could have a self-appointed "paint" committee; but my guess is that they wouldn't be able to build consensus either. Otherwise, why has this argument gone on for twenty five years? We just have to live with it, and rejoice when somebody paints a model in a shade which looks good to us. The color on the DP car could be better, but I don't think it is unacceptable. But then, I don't intend to pay that high a price for an M1. I will build one with plastic and paint it with my personal version of N&W Tuscan. BTW, the detail work on the DP model is excellent. Jim Nichols From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:51 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: DP Passenger Cars There is no question the NWHS Modeling Committee should be flogged then fired for not getting the color "right". Again! But, then, we wouldn't have the cars at all without their efforts... What good is having the cars if they can't get the paint "right"? But they provided the data to the importer.... Yeah, but what good is that if the builder ignores it or gets it wrong! Yada, yada, yada.... Boring! ***** Some builders are committed to accuracy and are willing to work with folks; some are not. Rich Yoder worked tirelessly with a group of members to get his VGN gons as "right" as possible and should be praised for so doing. Sunset is doing the same thing for its VGN AE project. But at the end of the day, the projects belong to the vendors, not to us. We vote with our pocket books. Just a thought: if we can't agree on N&W Tuscan...and I have yet to see a consensus...then how is a manufacturer to know? (Don't tell me color drift cards, because there is a big difference between that color...pick a color...and the same color on an HO model under indoor lighting.) The Pennsy group has worked for years, without a conclusion, trying to build consensus on scale mixes for PRR Tuscan, Brunswick Green, and Freight Car Color. At the end of the day, ya' likes what ya' likes. I'm just thrilled that in 2001 a builder is willing to tackle something as obscure as a one-off class of N&W RPO! Now about those VGN heavyweights.... Bill McClure -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sat Oct 17 13:39:05 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 13:39:05 -0400 Subject: DP Passenger Cars References: <5EB6A37DCA06496091178BB97283C6F3@071927350f><979066.63117.qm@web84410.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> <001a01ca4f3f$c62b4960$5281dc20$@net> Message-ID: Well, maybe the problem we should be working on is the lighting of our layouts! Bob Nichols ----- Original Message ----- From: NW Modeling List To: 'NW Modeling List' Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 11:37 AM Subject: RE: DP Passenger Cars Yes, you could start there, but the lack of a color chip is not the problem. As I have said before, the basic problem has to do with the subjective perception of what shade looks too light or too dark on a model. In my experience, most of the factory painted models have been too dark. (Bachmann and now DP are the exceptions. To me, they are a bit too light, although I would prefer that rather than ?too dark.? Again, it is a subjective decision, and no modeling committee would be able to satisfy everyone.) Jim Nichols -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sat Oct 17 15:39:05 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:39:05 -0400 Subject: DP Passenger Cars In-Reply-To: <012101ca4ec0$21201b00$63605100$@net> References: <25697911.205190.1255629055994.JavaMail.root@vms076.mailsrvcs.net> <001901ca4de3$b4fffa30$1effee90$@net> <5EB6A37DCA06496091178BB97283C6F3@071927350f> <012101ca4ec0$21201b00$63605100$@net> Message-ID: We already have a modeling committee. For them to do this would be logical. Ed Painter - Russellville, AR From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 7:24 PM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: DP Passenger Cars Gary: How would the paint committee be selected? Stephen From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 2:18 PM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: DP Passenger Cars Jim is right as is Bill McClure. The best that a paint committee can do is provide a model standard color to manufacturers so, hopefully, the models all have a similar color. It may or may not be prototypical- and it shouldn't be due to lighting differences from sunlight to indoor lighting. Is this what the modeling community is seeking? What do you think? Gary Rolih Secretary N&WHS ________________________________ From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:06 PM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: DP Passenger Cars The alternative, of course, is for each modeler to paint his own. I do that, but obviously a lot of people don't want to or don't feel competent to do so. We could have a self-appointed "paint" committee; but my guess is that they wouldn't be able to build consensus either. Otherwise, why has this argument gone on for twenty five years? We just have to live with it, and rejoice when somebody paints a model in a shade which looks good to us. The color on the DP car could be better, but I don't think it is unacceptable. But then, I don't intend to pay that high a price for an M1. I will build one with plastic and paint it with my personal version of N&W Tuscan. BTW, the detail work on the DP model is excellent. Jim Nichols From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:51 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: DP Passenger Cars There is no question the NWHS Modeling Committee should be flogged then fired for not getting the color "right". Again! But, then, we wouldn't have the cars at all without their efforts... What good is having the cars if they can't get the paint "right"? But they provided the data to the importer.... Yeah, but what good is that if the builder ignores it or gets it wrong! Yada, yada, yada.... Boring! ***** Some builders are committed to accuracy and are willing to work with folks; some are not. Rich Yoder worked tirelessly with a group of members to get his VGN gons as "right" as possible and should be praised for so doing. Sunset is doing the same thing for its VGN AE project. But at the end of the day, the projects belong to the vendors, not to us. We vote with our pocket books. Just a thought: if we can't agree on N&W Tuscan...and I have yet to see a consensus...then how is a manufacturer to know? (Don't tell me color drift cards, because there is a big difference between that color...pick a color...and the same color on an HO model under indoor lighting.) The Pennsy group has worked for years, without a conclusion, trying to build consensus on scale mixes for PRR Tuscan, Brunswick Green, and Freight Car Color. At the end of the day, ya' likes what ya' likes. I'm just thrilled that in 2001 a builder is willing to tackle something as obscure as a one-off class of N&W RPO! Now about those VGN heavyweights.... Bill McClure -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sat Oct 17 16:07:56 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 13:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj In-Reply-To: <00ee01ca4e62$1a34f440$4e9edcc0$@net> Message-ID: <238577.23581.qm@web180107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> The roof on the photo I sent was black. I do not intend to concern myself with what DP does with?any of the later cars. Jack has a mind of his own and the many attempts that I have tried to change his mind have been for naught.? As for the N&W red me thinks that you need a life. Harold --- On Fri, 10/16/09, NW Modeling List wrote: From: NW Modeling List Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj To: "'NW Modeling List'" Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 9:10 AM ? ? ? Harold: As you stated, you supplied the photo of a freshly painted M1, is the color of the roof supposed to be brown or black?? Did DP get it correct according to your photo??? ? Second, if you are referring to me about needing a blue version of a BEj, you should have read my post.? I need a blue version of a BMj ? If one is painting an N&W blue locomotive, most modelers use C&O blue, SF blue, B&O blue, or dark blue.? Please note!? All of these blues are very close in the spectrum.? The reds that our society wants to consider acceptable are at one end of the red spectrum to the other.? It is common sense that we as a society can at least narrow the red spectrum.? The DP cars are on the far end of the spectrum of maroon/red/pink.? There will always be personal choices of shades of red as there are shades of the blue mentioned above. ?As for a paint committee, isn?t that what the model committee is responsible for also?? Paint is part of the model.? ? What do you suggest to be done for the next car by DP? ? I expect variations from manufacturers to manufacturers. ?If we can get the blues schemes close to each other, why can?t we get the reds and be happy that they?re just close together?? As far as the lighting of my photos of the models, they were taken outside in natural light.? The DP photos are poor examples of the model showing shadows from dark to light.? One last thing, remember I stated that the color was my take on the model.? Other people are certainly allowed to like or dislike it as they please. ? Stephen Rineair ? Ed: you stated the obvious regarding the color of the red. The photo I supplied DP was of an M1 freshly painted. What red DP choose to paint the car is their business. If anyone wants to see the M1 models in a properly lit photo go to www.DivisionPoint.com. There are two photos of the painted models under the N&W heavyweight pass. car listing. Also if someone is looking for a blue version of a BEj ?photo one can be found on page 5 of Jim Nichols book - N&W?Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment. Any serious N&W modeler will have a copy of Jim's book and would have known that a photo of the BEj was within. ?Also railway postal cars did not have "venetian blinds" but were required to have barred windows account the carrying of certified mail containing cash and other valuables. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Harold Davenport --- On Wed, 10/14/09, NW Modeling List wrote: From: NW Modeling List Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj To: "'NW Modeling List'" Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 7:45 PM Stephen, ? Same old debate.? When you look at videos or pictures of N&W prototypes the colors go through a range of variation.? As the N&W passenger train passes by the different colors are amazing.? I've pretty much stopped losing sleep over the various colors on models.? If it has more red than PRR Tuscan and stays less red that a fire engine it probably matches one of the cars going by on a N&W passenger consist in the 1950's. ? Ed Painter;? Narrows, VA currently living in Russellville, AR ? From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:45 AM To: 'NW Modeling List' Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj ? Mike: I am seriously considering repainting the model, which I feel should not have to be done for the price. Even Tom Dressler, George Hughes, Dean Freytag, Jim Nichols(?) at some of the first conventioneers agreed that the IHC/AHM/Rivarossi Car color is very close (having color paint samples). ?Even the newer Branchline N&W kits are a very good color match. I sure wish our modeling committee could have been at some of the early convention in which the N&W color was discussed In great lengths so that we could get better color quality control. I can handle color variations from model to model, but this is a little too far in left field. I appreciate your suggestion Mike, but not all modelers like to weather their model. It would be nice if the modeling committee would use pervious produced models as a guide and come Reasonably close. Stephen Rineair ? From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:41 PM To: NW Modeling List Subject: Re: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj ? Will you attempt to tone down the red with some black weathering? Mike Rector ? From: NW Modeling List To: NW Modeling List Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 8:00:12 PM Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj I received the Division Point M1 RPO cars today. The car itself looks fantastic! The diaphragms are very well executed, maybe one the best produced yet! The details on the car are very well done and crisp. The window treatment are excellent with blinds(?) which helps hide the empty interior. There are no lights in the car, but could be added if one prefers. I will leave my as is for now. The color, well let me say it?s some type of maroon, red, pinkish color that doesn?t come close to the Overland, Key, Rail Classic, AHM/Rivarossi cars, which are pretty much all the same. The red looks like the Bachman red which is way far off, that there is no words to describe. The roofs are charcoal, gray/brown or something I can?t describe but definitely not black. I compared the roofs to the N&W cabooses Division Point produced if they were trying to do brown roofs, and they are no match. The roof color doesn?t match any N&W models ever produced that I?ve seen. The under body and end are black and is very good and detailed. Division Point has a reputation of screwing up the paint schemes, like the N&W Blue(?) caboose and VGN caboose red. I am looking forward to the next car, but sure hope they correct the paint. ?I personally will call Ken or Jack at DP to let them know. I give the car a 10, but the? paint a 6. Stephen Rineair crineair at fuse.net ? From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:23 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj ? Just wondering, where did you buy your M1 for $396? Thanks, John ? To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: RE: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:16:22 -0400 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org For those that are waiting for? a correct N&W Class BEj Baggage Car (Nos. 110-124) I would recommend waiting for Division Point. The Rail Classic N&W BEj is a very? poor rendition of the car so I dumped my after realizing all the problems. The Division Point car should sell around the same price of $396 as the M1 RPO. I have not received my M1?s yet and will give all my take on the red.? I just hope they are not the hideous red as the Bachman passenger red. Stephen ? ? Another heads up for the O scale VGN modeler.? Sunset is doing the VGN AE 2-10-10-2 the end of this year. The O Scale N&W K2a Streamlined is due early 2010. ? ? ? Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ________________________________________ NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org To change your subscription go to http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-modeling-list Browse the NW-Modeling-List archives at http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-modeling-list/ ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- ________________________________________ NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org To change your subscription go to http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-modeling-list Browse the NW-Modeling-List archives at http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-modeling-list/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sat Oct 17 18:32:39 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DP Passenger Cars In-Reply-To: <001a01ca4f3f$c62b4960$5281dc20$@net> References: <5EB6A37DCA06496091178BB97283C6F3@071927350f> <979066.63117.qm@web84410.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> <001a01ca4f3f$c62b4960$5281dc20$@net> Message-ID: <315919.4249.qm@web52512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I stated this before but I'll repeat my opinion since it's come up for discussion again. I'd like a model version of the red that the N&W put on their passenger cars. Not what so-and-so thinks looks right, or what it looks like in the morning sun, or after being faded for 7 months. Just what they put on their passenger cars in the shop. Anything other than that is just opinion. It seems like this should be a very cut-and-dry issue. What's the color that they used? If somebody doesn't like that color and wants to use something else, then by all means they're allowed to. Looking from my mail archives, here's what I've gathered. We could probably also ask Spencer what they used to paint their Redbird. From Gary Rolih (1/23/08): "I do have the reference for the Tuscan Red specified for the SD40 and C30-7?s that were painted in Tuscan. This isDUCO 282-93520 Tuscan Red which is an automotive/industrial paint code. The Modeling Committee was formed recently- just short of a year- and has a project list that it is working on. Paint and paint formulas is something for the future. But, they need time to work on the priorities from their project list. They are volunteers, too. " From Rodney (no last name): "If you go back and look at past emails, I reported a while back that The State Historic Library Division of the Illinois Historic Preservation Agency has a set of Pullman Company Drift Control Color Cards. They supposedly contain the following colors: Norfolk & Western Roof Brown #70-96 (described as darker than IC Brown #70-28) Norfolk & Western Tuscan Red # 70-91 (described as lighter than PRR Tuscan Red # 70-18) Norfolk & Western Blue # 70-133 (described as redder than MoPac blue # 70-132)" From Richard Shell of ShellScale: Here is a list of N&W colors taken from various painting diagrams and blueprints. 1776 Blue Poly... Dupont 826, 24160U 1776 Red Dupont 29198U 1776 White Dupont 508U 1776 Yellow Dupont 54701U Tuscan Red OEM: 2S MFG:FRD/1977/LINK DELSTAR: DAR2831X H -DARK RED ACRYLIC ENAMEL (NO METALIC) Pevler Blue OEM: 708A MFG: GM/1959/TRKDELSTAR: DAR12232 BLUE ACRYLIC ENAMEL Pevler Blue Model Master BLUE ANGEL BLUE is supposed to be a good match - have not verified. Brian Dembinski ________________________________ From: NW Modeling List To: NW Modeling List Sent: Sat, October 17, 2009 11:37:45 AM Subject: RE: DP Passenger Cars Yes, you could start there, but the lack of a color chip is not the problem. As I have said before, the basic problem has to do with the subjective perception of what shade looks too light or too dark on a model. In my experience, most of the factory painted models have been too dark. (Bachmann and now DP are the exceptions. To me, they are a bit too light, although I would prefer that rather than ?too dark.? Again, it is a subjective decision, and no modeling committee would be able to satisfy everyone.) Jim Nichols From:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:39 PM To: NW Modeling List Subject: RE: DP Passenger Cars What about the "color card" someone mentioned at the pullman archives. Wouldn't this be a good place to start? Charlie --- On Fri, 10/16/09, NW Modeling List wrote: From: NW Modeling List Subject: RE: DP Passenger Cars To: "'NW Modeling List'" Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 6:17 PM Jim is right as is Bill McClure. The best that a paint committee can do is provide a model standard color to manufacturers so, hopefully, the models all have a similar color. It may or may not be prototypical- and it shouldn?t be due to lighting differences from sunlight to indoor lighting. Is this what the modeling community is seeking? What do you think? Gary Rolih Secretary N&WHS ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sat Oct 17 20:10:41 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 20:10:41 -0400 Subject: Stop the Paint Madness!! Message-ID: What would a Paint Committee need?? ? A time machine so they can go back and scrape paint samples off of rolling stock. Color calibrators for eyes, and a Pantone color chart to go with. And most importantly, skin thicker than rhino hide. Steve, you are asking "who accredits the committee, and on what basis?" I suspect there is nobody here foolish enough to step into those crosshairs. Seriously, and on a proactive slant, I suggest that the best outcome would be to identify a RANGE of appropriate shades or mixes for each of the N&W's nominal "standard colors".? Something to the effect of "For N&W Passenger Red, Scalecoat #XXX is at the light end, Testors #YYY is in the middle, MudGoo #ZZZ is at the dark end. Choose as you wish. Your Individual Mileage May Vary." Gaining a consensus more precise than that is probably impossible. This approach also provides some guidance to the individual modeler who wants to have some variation in their fleet in order to reasonably represent the inarguable fact of real-world weathering. Of course, I'm just a VGN guy, what do I know? Black hoppers, yellow stripes on Train Masters, red cabooses, and the occasional brown boxcar. Ah, it's modeling bliss. :) Blessed in my Ignorance - Marty Swartz -- Without ambition one starts nothing. Without work one finishes nothing. ? Ralph Waldo Emerson From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sat Oct 17 21:52:22 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 20:52:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Paint; A Proposal Message-ID: <1185920130.876916.1255830742905.JavaMail.root@vms182.mailsrvcs.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sat Oct 17 21:00:30 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:00:30 -0400 Subject: DP Passenger Cars In-Reply-To: <315919.4249.qm@web52512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <5EB6A37DCA06496091178BB97283C6F3@071927350f> <979066.63117.qm@web84410.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> <001a01ca4f3f$c62b4960$5281dc20$@net> <315919.4249.qm@web52512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <017b01ca4f8e$639bb6a0$2ad323e0$@net> Brian: I agree with you. All I want is what is on the real thing also! Some may tell me to get a life, but that?s all I am asking. Maybe our president can approve money to be spent on the color chips listed below and that would be that. Why are we making things so difficult. Stephen Rineair From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 6:33 PM To: NW Modeling List Subject: Re: DP Passenger Cars I stated this before but I'll repeat my opinion since it's come up for discussion again. I'd like a model version of the red that the N&W put on their passenger cars. Not what so-and-so thinks looks right, or what it looks like in the morning sun, or after being faded for 7 months. Just what they put on their passenger cars in the shop. Anything other than that is just opinion. It seems like this should be a very cut-and-dry issue. What's the color that they used? If somebody doesn't like that color and wants to use something else, then by all means they're allowed to. Looking from my mail archives, here's what I've gathered. We could probably also ask Spencer what they used to paint their Redbird. >From Gary Rolih (1/23/08): " I do have the reference for the Tuscan Red specified for the SD40 and C30-7?s that were painted in Tuscan. This is DUCO 282-93520 Tuscan Red which is an automotive/industrial paint code. The Modeling Committee was formed recently- just short of a year- and has a project list that it is working on. Paint and paint formulas is something for the future. But, they need time to work on the priorities from their project list. They are volunteers, too. " >From Rodney (no last name): "If you go back and look at past emails, I reported a while back that The State Historic Library Division of the Illinois Historic Preservation Agency has a set of Pullman Company Drift Control Color Cards. They supposedly contain the following colors: Norfolk & Western Roof Brown #70-96 (described as darker than IC Brown #70-28) Norfolk & Western Tuscan Red # 70-91 (described as lighter than PRR Tuscan Red # 70-18) Norfolk & Western Blue # 70-133 (described as redder than MoPac blue # 70-132)" >From Richard Shell of ShellScale: Here is a list of N&W colors taken from various painting diagrams and blueprints. 1776 Blue Poly... Dupont 826, 24160U 1776 Red Dupont 29198U 1776 White Dupont 508U 1776 Yellow Dupont 54701U Tuscan Red OEM: 2S MFG:FRD/1977/LINK DELSTAR: DAR2831X H -DARK RED ACRYLIC ENAMEL (NO METALIC) Pevler Blue OEM: 708A MFG: GM/1959/TRK DELSTAR: DAR12232 BLUE ACRYLIC ENAMEL Pevler Blue Model Master BLUE ANGEL BLUE is supposed to be a good match - have not verified. Brian Dembinski _____ From: NW Modeling List To: NW Modeling List Sent: Sat, October 17, 2009 11:37:45 AM Subject: RE: DP Passenger Cars Yes, you could start there, but the lack of a color chip is not the problem. As I have said before, the basic problem has to do with the subjective perception of what shade looks too light or too dark on a model. In my experience, most of the factory painted models have been too dark. (Bachmann and now DP are the exceptions. To me, they are a bit too light, although I would prefer that rather than ?too dark.? Again, it is a subjective decision, and no modeling committee would be able to satisfy everyone.) Jim Nichols From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:39 PM To: NW Modeling List Subject: RE: DP Passenger Cars What about the "color card" someone mentioned at the pullman archives. Wouldn't this be a good place to start? Charlie --- On Fri, 10/16/09, NW Modeling List wrote: From: NW Modeling List Subject: RE: DP Passenger Cars To: "'NW Modeling List'" Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 6:17 PM Jim is right as is Bill McClure. The best that a paint committee can do is provide a model standard color to manufacturers so, hopefully, the models all have a similar color. It may or may not be prototypical- and it shouldn?t be due to lighting differences from sunlight to indoor lighting. Is this what the modeling community is seeking? What do you think? Gary Rolih Secretary N&WHS _____ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sat Oct 17 22:39:46 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 22:39:46 -0400 Subject: Paint Madness Message-ID: <20091018023949.YECD11036.eastrmmtao104.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net> What would a Paint Committee need? Color calibrators for eyes, and skin thicker than rhino hide. Steve, you are asking "who accredits the committee, and on what basis?" I suspect there is nobody here foolish enough to step into those crosshairs. Seriously, I suggest that the best outcome would be to identify a RANGE of appropriate shades or mixes for each of the N&W's nominal "standard colors". Something to the effect of "For N&W Passenger Red, Scalecoat #XXX is at the light end, Testors #YYY is in the middle, MudGoo #ZZZ is at the dark end. Choose as you wish. Your Mileage May Vary." Gaining a consensus more precise than that is probably impossible. This approach also provides some guidance to the individual modeler who wants to have some variation in their fleet in order to reasonably represent the inarguable fact of real-world weathering. Of course, I'm just a VGN guy, what do I know? Black hoppers, yellow stripes on Train Masters, red cabooses, and the occasional brown boxcar. Ah, it's modeling bliss. :) Blessed in my Ignorance - Marty Swartz From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sat Oct 17 22:46:14 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 22:46:14 -0400 Subject: Division Point N&W passenger cars BEj Message-ID: <20091018024620.YGMX11036.eastrmmtao104.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sat Oct 17 23:02:24 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 23:02:24 -0400 Subject: DP Passenger Cars References: <5EB6A37DCA06496091178BB97283C6F3@071927350f> <979066.63117.qm@web84410.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> <001a01ca4f3f$c62b4960$5281dc20$@net><315919.4249.qm@web52512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <017b01ca4f8e$639bb6a0$2ad323e0$@net> Message-ID: <7A690B2418D248F1B698DBB63109E72D@Jimmy> " I do have the reference for the Tuscan Red specified for the SD40 and C30-7?s that were painted in Tuscan. This is DUCO 282-93520 Tuscan Red which is an automotive/industrial paint code." "Why are we making things so difficult." One reason would be because the SD40 & C30-7 color is a metallic that has a purple tint vs the tomato soup of the non-metallic earlier years. Personally, I can't stand the metallic. I would suggest that the name "Model Car World Automotive Finishes" in Burlington, NC be kept in mind. He might be able to produce a good match if a color could be settled upon. Jimmy Lisle -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sat Oct 17 22:39:04 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 22:39:04 -0400 Subject: DP Passenger Cars In-Reply-To: <315919.4249.qm@web52512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <5EB6A37DCA06496091178BB97283C6F3@071927350f> <979066.63117.qm@web84410.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> <001a01ca4f3f$c62b4960$5281dc20$@net> <315919.4249.qm@web52512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20091017222804.04029e78@flozzie.com> At 06:32 PM 10/17/2009, you wrote: >I'd like a model version of the red that the N&W put on their >passenger cars. Not what so-and-so thinks looks right, or what it >looks like in the morning sun, or after being faded for 7 months. >Just what they put on their passenger cars in the shop. Anything >other than that is just opinion. Everything, including YOUR opinion, is just that: opinion. If you were repainting the original equipment, then paint today would NOT be the same as paint used then. Processes change, even if chemistry does not. I suspect someone with an opinion similar to yours would find that the paint used then applied to a 1:1 scale car today would look wrong and the fix would be simple, or cut and dried. Perception is incredibly important, and so is attitude. I'm really sorry, but that won't change because you want it to change. I have seen an HO scale B&O F3 painted with paint drawn from a leftover original paint storage container that was sealed against oxidation. You can't get any more "true" to the prototype than that, right? The thing looked black except under a photo flood light and then it looked like the darkest navy blue. Show me ANY photo or extant prototype of a B&O that looks that dark in any light. You will not find it. So people are just going to have to deal with others' perceptions and opinions as valid unless they volunteer to BE the modeling committee. It may sound harsh, but I've seen this kind of debate in every modelers' forum and historical society of which I have been a member. The color under discussion varies, but rarely the opinions or arguments. Warmest regards, Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sun Oct 18 14:23:40 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 19:23:40 +0100 Subject: PAINT AND PASSENGER CARS Message-ID: As someone else who is "just a Vgn guy" I thought Marty Scwartz' comments concerning passenger car colours very sane. Perhaps some of the energy created by this discussion could be directed at someone to producing a Vgn PA (I'd paid my deposit) the passenger cars to match (ditto) and seeing if Rich Yoder would consider again an HO battleship gondola. In the meantime I have seen a photograph or two of an MB with a passenger train and I've made that compromise, pulling an Athearn baggage/RPO detailed with some extra bits and the Walthers PS heavyweight coach. As an idea, has anyone thought of producing car ends to use on the Walthers coaches? Peter North Norfolk, England From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sat Oct 17 23:05:16 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 23:05:16 -0400 Subject: Paint Madness In-Reply-To: <20091018023949.YECD11036.eastrmmtao104.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net> References: <20091018023949.YECD11036.eastrmmtao104.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net> Message-ID: <018e01ca4f9f$d1d768b0$75863a10$@net> Marty: Which yellow do you use for VGN? Reefer Yellow, UP yellow, CNW yellow, Etc.? The yellow over the black, yellow over the red primer, yellow over white, or yellow over gray. Every custom painter does it different. Conclusion - Even the VGN yellow may vary, but at least they are close in the spectrum. Stephen Rineair -----Original Message----- From: nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 10:40 PM To: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Subject: Re: Paint Madness What would a Paint Committee need? Color calibrators for eyes, and skin thicker than rhino hide. Steve, you are asking "who accredits the committee, and on what basis?" I suspect there is nobody here foolish enough to step into those crosshairs. Seriously, I suggest that the best outcome would be to identify a RANGE of appropriate shades or mixes for each of the N&W's nominal "standard colors". Something to the effect of "For N&W Passenger Red, Scalecoat #XXX is at the light end, Testors #YYY is in the middle, MudGoo #ZZZ is at the dark end. Choose as you wish. Your Mileage May Vary." Gaining a consensus more precise than that is probably impossible. This approach also provides some guidance to the individual modeler who wants to have some variation in their fleet in order to reasonably represent the inarguable fact of real-world weathering. Of course, I'm just a VGN guy, what do I know? Black hoppers, yellow stripes on Train Masters, red cabooses, and the occasional brown boxcar. Ah, it's modeling bliss. :) Blessed in my Ignorance - Marty Swartz ________________________________________ NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org To change your subscription go to http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-modeling-list Browse the NW-Modeling-List archives at http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-modeling-list/ From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sun Oct 18 23:08:32 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:08:32 -0700 Subject: VGN Gondola was Re: PAINT AND PASSENGER CARS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1197CDA9FC9A41C1B2D3F82D780ED3B6@NigelPC> Hi Peter; Take a look at http://www.fandckits.com/ on the left side of the screen pick HO freight cars, then scroll down to VGN, kit 2072 I have no interest in F&C other than as a customer, and am only sharing the information about this recent offering. Nigel http://www.linkedin.com/in/nigelmisso ----- Original Message ----- From: "NW Modeling List" To: Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 11:23 AM Subject: PAINT AND PASSENGER CARS > As someone else who is "just a Vgn guy" I thought Marty Scwartz' comments > concerning passenger car colours very sane. Perhaps some of the energy > created by this discussion could be directed at someone to producing a > Vgn PA (I'd paid my deposit) the passenger cars to match (ditto) and > seeing if Rich Yoder would consider again an HO battleship gondola. In > the meantime I have seen a photograph or two of an MB with a passenger > train and I've made that compromise, pulling an Athearn baggage/RPO > detailed with some extra bits and the Walthers PS heavyweight coach. As > an idea, has anyone thought of producing car ends to use on the Walthers > coaches? > > Peter North > Norfolk, England ________________________________________ > NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org > To change your subscription go to > http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-modeling-list > Browse the NW-Modeling-List archives at > http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-modeling-list/ > From nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org Sun Oct 18 23:51:32 2009 From: nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org (NW Modeling List) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 23:51:32 -0400 Subject: PAINT AND PASSENGER CARS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Peter, I suspect I'm opening up some more chances to get shot at, but: 1)the pictures of passenger cars in the McClure & Plant book are very useful for getting a reasonable color match, particularly the one picture of a train with an N&W car in it. (running the risk of prolonging the discussion of light and film over time) 2)My understanding is that the PA project (DP?)has been cancelled, and your deposit should be cheerfully refunded. 3)Rich Yoder's car is exquisite, but in O it retailed for something around $300 and was sold out. I don't know that an HO car would be much less. And as for getting a train of them.....it appears that the new F&C kit is a marked improvement over the prior version. Frank Bongiovanni On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 2:23 PM, NW Modeling List wrote: > As someone else who is "just a Vgn guy" I thought Marty Scwartz' comments > concerning passenger car colours very sane. Perhaps some of the energy > created by this discussion could be directed at someone to producing a Vgn > PA (I'd paid my deposit) the passenger cars to match (ditto) and seeing if > Rich Yoder would consider again an HO battleship gondola. In the meantime I > have seen a photograph or two of an MB with a passenger train and I've made > that compromise, pulling an Athearn baggage/RPO detailed with some extra > bits and the Walthers PS heavyweight coach. As an idea, has anyone thought > of producing car ends to use on the Walthers coaches? > > Peter North > Norfolk, England________________________________________ > NW-Modeling-List at nwhs.org > To change your subscription go to > http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-modeling-list > Browse the NW-Modeling-List archives at > http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-modeling-list/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: