<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>I don't think we should be worried about API's vanishing unless they are interface based, this would break far too many programs. The alias manager for example works perfectly well, has for many years despite not seeing development and doesn't need any improvements. Interface based API's however, like the DataBrowser and HIView are constantly changing and Apple is not releasing the improvements for Carbon so we get left behind. Take QuickDraw or ResourceManager, those have been unchanged for years (10+ maybe?) and they still exist but MLTE is total crap compared to NSTextView along with dozens of missing controls in Carbon.</div><div><br></div><div>The way it appears to be happening Apple will not remove Carbon for many years but it will become so dated (due to lack of updates) that people will decide to port their code of their own free will.</div><div><br></div><div>It's a shame too because for example, I needed some basic MIDI file support in an app and decided to use QuickTime instead of CoreAudio after learning how stupidly complicated CoreAudio was compared to the slick QuickTime API. Who ever the CoreAudio engineers are they wanted their pet project in the spot light so they "deprecated" QuickTime, a superior API for playing simple MIDI files and every poor developer like us has to remove all our "old" code, study their API then re-implement with the same end result.</div><div><br></div><div>What's happening with WASTE is not an isolated incident and it has been turning me against Apple recently.</div><br><div><div>On Aug 5, 2009, at 10:59 PM, James Stein wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">I echo Ryan's sentiments. Marco's work and support were outstanding.<div>There is both good and bad when technology moves on;</div><div>I wish Marco had had more financial reward for his efforts.</div><div><br></div> <div>I learned of Carbon's eventual demise of Carbon via this thread.</div><div>One of my apps makes extensive use of the Alias Manager.</div><div>Does anyone know: Is the AM also destined for the scrap heap?</div><div> <br></div><div>-- James</div><div><br><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">2009/8/5 Ryan Joseph <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:thealchemistguild@gmail.com">thealchemistguild@gmail.com</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> <div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>Marco,</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you coming out and saying this finally. Apple engineers have decided they have the newest and coolest language in the world now and aren't willing to support 2 frameworks (this was too much ask I feel). I was using WASTE from the Free Pascal Compiler and Object Pascal so this caused me serious grief including making a Pascal wrapper to the entire Cocoa framework which took 2 solid months! There was nothing really wrong in particular with Carbon except Apple was not willing to update it and make it competitive to Cocoa, especially with the browsers and text editing. It makes me cringe to think when the next generation of Apple engineers come along and decide Cocoa is not the future and they want to see their own pet project in the main stream... I think about the time Marco started WASTE Apple was using MacApp which was written in their custom model of Object Pascal so that's proof this will happen again.</div> <div><br></div><div>With WASTE gone there is nothing comparable to NSTextView and I would recommend anyone to move your code as soon as possible. There were some drawing bugs with HICocoaView's and they can only be added to the root view of the window which complicated windows with hidden text views (like in a tabs) but on the whole it's worked well. I would also like to note to users that NSTextView offered many improvements over WASTE (speed in particular) and it was rewarding to add some functionality to my editor, but still hardly worth the terrible amount of work.</div> <div><br></div><div>Thank you again Marco and good luck to everyone.</div><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br><div><div>On Aug 3, 2009, at 3:49 PM, Marco Piovanelli wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Sun, 2 Aug 2009 12:03:04 +0700,<br> Ryan Joseph (<a href="mailto:thealchemistguild@gmail.com" target="_blank">thealchemistguild@gmail.com</a>) wrote:<br><br><br><blockquote type="cite">I think it would be wise for you to pull WASTE asap because it's<br> </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">virtually inevitable you will run into a problem which won't be fixed<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and ultimately jeopardize your project. Using NSTextView in an<br></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite">HICocoaView is the Carbon solution unless the more limited MLTE will<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">work. My overhaul was a totally nightmare (still going) but the end<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> result is a much more powerful and flexible API.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I'm sorry to advocate anti-WASTE and the mail list but I don't want to<br></blockquote> <blockquote type="cite">see people get stuck in the same mess I did. The writings on the wall,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Apple is not supporting Carbon and NSTextView is simply better than<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> WASTE, if you can stomach all the Objective-C. Sadly there's no place<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">for WASTE anymore and I think that's prompted the halt in development,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> which makes perfect sense.<br></blockquote><br>Ryan is right. Carbon is a dead-end. It has been for several years<br>now, but Apple made this clear at WWDC 2007, when they reluctantly<br>conceded that the promised 64-bit version of Carbon (which had been<br> in the works for a good while, and was almost ready for prime time)<br>had been killed. Cocoa is simply a superior choice for UI work, and<br>the Cocoa text framework is at least an order of magnitude better<br>than anything to ever come out of the Carbon camp, including WASTE.<br> <br>At this point, it makes no economic sense to continue development<br>of WASTE 3.0. As for projects still using WASTE, my impression is<br>that Apple will eventually pull the rug from under them, by finally<br>removing Carbon altogether from OS X. Snow Leopard is clearly heading<br> in this direction.<br><br>A year ago, I had hoped to have time for one last bug-fix release<br>of WASTE 3.0, but it's been my busiest year since I started writing<br>software for Apple OSes in the early 90s, and the first year in<br> which more than 90% of the code I wrote was Objective-C (for the<br>iPhone OS, in case you wonder). Coming from a mostly C++ background,<br>I still love C++ and the STL, but I have to admit Objective-C is<br>more productive, especially when coupled with a very well thought-out<br> framework like Cocoa. But I'm sure you've all heard similar assessments<br>ad nauseam.<br><br>So yes, to put it bluntly, WASTE is dead, and I encourage everyone<br>still using it to move on to anything whose foundations have more<br> chances of not being dropped by Apple.<br><br>In closing, I'd like to thank everybody who contributed to the WASTE<br>project in the past 15 years or so, by adopting it, reporting bugs,<br>suggesting improvements, contributing code, and generally encouraging<br> me to keep going.<br><br><br> -- marco<br><br><br><br><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div><div> <span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"> <div>Regards,</div><div><span style="white-space:pre"> </span>Josef<br></div></div></span> </div><br></div><br>_______________________________________________<br> WASTE-list mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:WASTE-list@ovolab.com">WASTE-list@ovolab.com</a><br> <a href="http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/waste-list" target="_blank">http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/waste-list</a><br> <br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Regards,</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "> </span>Josef<br></div></div></span> </div><br></body></html>