Norfolk Southern History

[NW Mailing List]

Well said Jeff.

Regards,

Todd Arnett

-----Original Message-----
From: nw-mailing-list-bounces at nwhs.org
[mailto:nw-mailing-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Mailing List
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 1:39 AM
To: NW Mailing List
Subject: Re: Norfolk Southern History

Mr. Flummer,

You say "To speculate on the tort responsibility of  Norfolk Southern from 
damage inflicted upon an empty train of coaches, at night, in a railroad 
yard, is pure fantasy."

To me, your statement only enforces NS's position. How many times have you 
heard an official say "what if"? And they will not budge from their 
argument. "What if the passenger train had been full? What if there was a 
hazmat involved?" No amount of argument, especially using "common sense", is

going to change their mind. And the fact that an employee violated a rule, 
intentionally, or not, just proves their point that accidents happen, 
anytime, anyplace.

For better, or worse, the railroad, in this case Norfolk Southern (and David

Goode) own the ball. They also make the rules, and they own the ball field. 
So, guess who gets to make the decisions? I'm not cutting Mr. Goode any 
slack, but, if he doesn't appreciate the history of his company enough to 
stick his neck out for it, it's still his call. And if he's not a "fan" (of 
steam, history, or whatever), it's our loss. He could care less. Our 
happiness, or attitude, isn't his responsibility. That's right, bottom line.

I didn't like the decision any more than any other steam fan, but, 
unfortunately, Mr. Goode didn't call and ask for my opinion.

The first gentleman to broach this subject said something like "it's a shame

that railroads are run like businesses". Well, excuse me; if the railroads 
hadn't been operated as businesses for the past 150 years, I guess we would 
all be out chasing, photographing and trying to run excursions on canal 
barges! Because there wouldn't be any railroads.

The railroads are not in business to please the public, nor to grant us our 
every whim. Just be thankful for every opportunity to see, ride and 
photograph any passenger train, steam or otherwise. Be grateful for every 
significant building saved, every tunnel not butchered, every piece of 
motive power preserved. NS has done much toward preserving railroad history,

as mentioned by others here. But we are certainly not going to get all we 
want. And, it's a futile exercise to try to figure out their motives.

As the old folks say, "when you're given lemons, make lemonade".

Jeff Sanders

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
To: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 4:52 PM
Subject: RE: Norfolk Southern History



> Mr. Shell, I certainly respect your inside knowledge of the decision to 

> end the Norfolk Southern Steam Program. However, I must clarify that the "



> derailment of 1994" was actually caused by a train that was mistakenly 

> shoving on the same track occupied by the excursion coaches. A track that 

> was clearly closed by railroad rule book standards. A track that was 

> REQUIRED to be protected against any movement by an employee. Norfolk 

> Southern Operating Rule number 508. "When directing a move by radio 

> communication, person directing the move, after establishing 

> identification, will give engineer direction of move and distance seen to 

> be clear. When one-half the last distance received has been covered, 

> engineer will stop the move unless he is receiving additional signal from 

> person directing move. Exception: Commencing five car lengths before 

> coupling or stop is to be made, person directing move will call out 

> distances in car lengths, as: "five cars;" "four cars;" "three cars;" etc.



> after acknowledging "five cars," engineer will not be required to further 

> acknowledge countdown if doing so would interfere with safe operation. 

> During this countdown, engineer will stop the move immediately after 

> moving one car length unless he is receiving additional signal from person



> directing move." The damage inflicted upon the excursion coaches was 

> simply caused by  disregard for the rules by a careless employee. To 

> speculate on the tort responsibility of  Norfolk Southern from  damage 

> inflicted upon an empty train of coaches, at night, in a railroad yard, is



> pure fantasy. It seems that very few want to believe that Mr. Goode could 

> have been so cold as to end the Steam Program for no visible reason, so 

> the apologists create many different reasons, liability being one; the 

> story about the school children running across the track to board 611's 

> train in Apomattox, for instance. Isn't it strange that Mr. Robert Claytor



> was able to operate the Steam Program so sucessfully, while facing these 

> same concerns. Isn't it strange that Union Pacific continues their 

> excursions many years after 1994. As I heard more than one person say, in 

> 1994, after the end of the NS Steam Program was announced, "They waited 

> untill Bob Claytor was in the ground, before they ended it." Look to Mr. 

> Goode for the reasons it ended. Look to the Board members of that year. 

> Look to the profit and loss sheets. Remember the end of steam on the N&W, 

> so impatiently, and wastefully implemented by Stuart Saunders. It wasn't 

> fear of lawsuits that brought an end to the NS Steam Program, it was 

> greed. Also, to those of you who continually call for Norfolk Southern to 

> pull 611 from the museum, you can forget it. Not in this or any other 

> lifetime. I invite you to do as I, and please contribute to the 

> maintenance and upkeep of 611, and 1218, on a regular basis. Thank You, 

> Jim Flummer, former 611, and 1218 locomotive engineer.

>

>> I have to take exception to this comment. Norfolk Southern not running 

>> steam has nothing to do with whether or not they are interested in 

>> history. Norfolk Southern quit running steam excursions due to liability.



>> I have heard this first hand from top NS management at the time. I was 

>> involved in some meetings with NS to preserve the steam program. After 

>> the derailment/accident in Lynchburg, VA in 1994 they realized that if 

>> that train had been full of school kids there would not be enough money 

>> to cover all of those blood sucking lawsuits that would follow. Blood 

>> sucking is my description, not NS's. I believe in compensation after an 

>> accident but these settlements these days are outrageous.

>>

>> Many of my dealings with Norfolk Southern show me that they are 

>> interested in history. They often support our historic organizations. The



>> reason they often tear down unused structures is to avoid property taxes.

>>

>> Thanks,

>>

>> Richard D. Shell

>> Troutville, VA

>>

>> In a message dated 1/27/2010 1:38:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 

>> nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org writes:

>>

>>     It's the same reason why NS sees absolutely no

>>     reason to operate steam locomotives,

>

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