Why the 611?

[NW Mailing List]

I contacted Ken Miller to let him know I had some information about shoppings of the J's and why the 611 was the last one standing.

Ken explained in detail why the 611 was saved by the efforts of the Claytor brothers and C.E. Pond and possibly others. Now how was it that 611 ended up being the last in service. This was not by design by the N&W.

Until January 1st, 1958 all of the J's were in passenger service. Each J was given classified repairs about once a year up to that point. On 1-1-1958, the Bristol line was dieselized and all the joint N&W/SR pasenger trains began using SR diesels. At this point, the J's began receiving the dog houses, and A-tank connections for anticipated freight service; these modications were made from January to March 1958. About that time, J's began showing up in freight service. Beginning in July 1958, all J's were bumped off passenger trains and what running they did, was only on freights.

I have shop records and schedules showing what engines were sent through the Roanoke Shops for classified repairs. I will show only part of 1957 to the end of these records in 5-158 that show the J's and when they were shopped. The J's began being retired and scrapped in October 1958; when retired being based on when serviceable miles had run out.

Here is a listing of each J's as retired in order, when outshopped from Roanoke, and what class of repair was performed at that shopping.

J #        Retired            Outshopped           Class Repair 

604        10-58                4-57                        5
                                     7-57                        6A
602          1-59                7-57                        5
                                     3-58                        5
607          2-59               11-57                       3
601          3-59               10-57                       3
                                      4-58                       5A
613             "                  6-57                       3
603          4-59                6-57                       5
606          5-59                5-57                       5
                                     4-58                        5
608             "                  8-57                        3
609             "                  8-57                        3
600          6-59                4-57                        5
                                     4-58                        5
605             "                  1-58                        3
610          8-59                9-57                        3
612             "                  3-57                        5
                                     3-58                        3
611          10-59              6-57                        5A
                                     2-58                        3

As seen from this listing, the order of being retired was dictated when classified repairs were due. The 611 was the last one in existence when it powered two excursions: one from Roanoke to Norfolk and back; the other to Williamson and back. It was retired after those excursions. I have storage records that begin in July 1959 and all three J's left then (610, 611 and 612) were all listed as "ENGINES OUT OF SERVICE FOR CLASSIFIED REPAIRS".

The 610 and 612 were retired in August 1959. The 611 may have been saved just for the excursions; who knows?

Bud Jeffries

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
To: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: Why the 611?



> Gene

> 

> I don't have any reference material with me, nor a copy of the book  

> handy, so if I have some dates off, well, check the book. If you  

> look, you'll see the first J retired was in, IIRC, August of 1958. By  

> July, with the lease of the RF&P and ACL E units to handle all the  

> mainline passenger trains, the Js were pushed to secondary service,  

> and all were equipped for freight service, with addition of  

> connections for auxiliary tenders. As mechanical issues faced the in  

> service Js, the immediate need was determined, and if it cost too  

> much, or took too much time, they were stored and/or retired. Several  

> went in local freight service on the east and west end of the  

> railroad, during the holiday rush, Js were used in passenger service,  

> especially when the diesels failed.

> 

> By late December 1958, the first N&W passenger diesels arrived on the  

> property, limiting the use of the Js on passenger trains, with the  

> passing of the holiday mail and express rush, there were soon enough  

> diesels on the property to handle to regular trains. In addition, the  

> N&W was going through a lot of passenger train offs, eliminating a  

> lot of local service and mail and express. Many Js were stored, and  

> over the next few months retired, particularly as flue dates passed.  

> The 611, was the last Class J to have received a major overhaul,  

> after the wreck on No. 3 at Cedar, West Virginia on January 23, 1956.  

> It had the most recent flues, and major repairs. By the summer of  

> 1959, it was likely the only J with usable flues. Again, if I recall  

> correctly, a number of the other Js were gone from the property in  

> Spring 1959, others being retired in June and July.

> 

> The reason none were to be saved was simple, it was financial, Stuart  

> Saunders and his management team had no sentimentality, no interest  

> in the history, only the bottom line. They had presented the Y6a No.  

> 2156 to the St. Louis Museum, and the E2a No. 578 to the Museum at  

> Worthington, Ohio, as well as Class M No. 433 to Abingdon and No. 5  

> to Bluefield, No. 6 to Roanoke.

> 

> However, short of the Y6, note that all of these locomotives were  

> small power, lightweight, those did not have nearly the scrap value  

> as bigger power, A, J, etc. I'm certain that saving an S1a like 244  

> was not even considered. It was not that old, not interesting. Again,  

> if I recall correctly, the 244 was retired sometime in 1958. The  

> price of scrap was pretty high at the time, don't give away something  

> that the company can return value on. Of which they did. It is noted  

> that there were a huge number of steam engines on hand at the end,  

> including a bunch of Virginian steam, perfect basis of a  

> transportation museum in all cases. However, with the value high, all  

> was scrapped, and the VGN stuff was moved in a funeral train very  

> late in December 1959 to get it off the property before the end of  

> the physical year. There could easily have been more saved, if the  

> desire had been there, and the value of scrap been down to nothing,  

> things may have stayed on the property longer, awaiting value to  

> rise. Perhaps by then, someone may have come along with money or a  

> decent plan to save things, but it costs money, then as today.  

> However, it was a scorched earth policy that cleaned the property of  

> most all those old steam locomotives, as well as a bunch of other  

> cost cutting things done in 1959-1962. Why? Very simple, it improved  

> the bottom line, increasing stock value, of which executives like  

> Presidents of the company own and it makes stockholders happy as  

> well, which means they keep the President in his job.

> 

> Anyway, by August of 1959, 611 was the last J standing, still in  

> operating condition, operated on a special trip for Appalachian  

> Power, again, the Clayton connection. It was about that time that  

> Graham began to write to Stuart Saunders. Graham Claytor was a lawyer  

> at a DC firm, not yet with the Southern, Bob Clayton was in N&W law  

> department, and still rising in the company, so had to maintain as  

> low a profile as possible. However, the Claytors knew Saunders  

> personally, not just another crazy railfan writing a letter saying to  

> save this stuff.  Graham was very determined, visiting, writing  

> frequently about it. He suggested keeping the 611 in operating  

> condition for a potential transportation museum in Roanoke that was  

> being talked about, and finally came to pass in 1963. There was even  

> an evaluation done by N&W in 1962-63 to put 611 back into operating  

> condition, estimated to cost about $5,000 then.

> 

> Anyway, that is a round about explanation of why the 611, not because  

> it was chosen, but it was the last survivor, then and now.

> 

> Ken Miller

> 

> 

> On Jun 4, 2010, at 8:43 AM, NW Mailing List wrote:

> 

>> Thank you Mr. Miller.

>> Back to the original question. Was the 611 saved because of its  

>> good condition, or was it just the only "J" available?

>> Gene A.

>>

>>

>>

>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing- 

>> list at nwhs.org>

>> To: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>

>> Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 11:01 PM

>> Subject: Re: Why the 611?

>>

>>

>>> Link liked to believe he was responsible for saving the 611,  

>>> however  he had nothing to do with it.

>>>

>>> Copies of correspondence I have regarding the saving of 611 lie  

>>> solely with W. Graham Clayton, his personal appeal to Stuart  

>>> Saunders and repeated efforts resulted in the 611 being saved, not  

>>> scrapped.  Graham's letters begin about late August 1959. I is  

>>> covered in my book  on the Class J.

>>>

>>> There is absolutely no mention, ever, of Link's involvement or   

>>> inquiry. Behind the scenes also working to save a J was Robert B.   

>>> Claytor, then in N&W law department with some additional help of  

>>> C.E.  Pond as well.

>>>

>>> This was covered in my book on the Class J, published in 2000.

>>>

>>> Ken Miller

>>>

>>> On Jun 3, 2010, at 7:51 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:

>>>

>>>> In one of the early videos, I believe "Queen of the fleet",  Mr.   

>>>> Link explains that the 611  was in the Yard at Roanoke ready to   

>>>> send for scrapping. He called one of the Officials and suggested   

>>>> that is should be set aside and saved. The 1218 was being used as  

>>>> a  stationary boiler some where up North.

>>>> Gene A.

>>>> Gloucester, Va.

>>>> ________________________________________

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>>

>>

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> 

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