Jackie Robinson Special-N&W?

[NW Mailing List]

Rob and Skip:

Thanks for the leads.  Am overseas, but will take up the inquiry upon
return.  Frank Gibson

On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 19:50:42 -0700 (PDT), NW Mailing List
<nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:

> You should look at the _Norfolk Journal and Guide_ from that time; it

> was the "Negro" newspaper serving the Hampton Roads area then. Given

> the social conditions of the period I doubt that any mention of a

> Jackie Robinson Special occurred in either the _Virginian - Pilot_ or

> _Ledger - Star_. A Google search showed that the _Journal and Guide_

> is available on microfilm in a number of university libraries.  

> 

> A prominent jazz critic once commented that African - American

> newspapers were a largely unexplored area of jazz history. Little

> research has been done on contemporary views of jazz in those papers.

> The same might be true for railroad history. How were events in the

> N&W's history perceived in the black community at the time?  

> 

> Rob Doorack 

> 

> -------------------------

>   NW Mailing List 

>  NW Mailing List 

>  Thu, September 16, 2010 3:20:33 PM

>  Re: Jackie Robinson Special-N&W?

> 

> Ken, Harry and Frank,  

> 

> I also was intrigued by the Ken Burns Baseball Special referring to a

> train from Norfolk to Cincinnati called the Jackie Robinson Special. I

> researched at the N&WHS Archives and only found the same references

> that are on line. However I asked Gary Wood, a recently retired N&W

> engineer, if he had ever heard of such a train. His answer gave me a

> little spark of knowledge. He remembered early in his career hearing

> "several" older N&W engineers talking about this special. Gary

> remembers that it was reported as separate (chartered) special train

> but with no markings.  

> 

> The answers will no doubt be found in the Norfolk newspapers of that

> time that did the advertising for it.  

> 

> Skip Salmon

> ---- NW Mailing List  wrote:

> 

> =============

> Ken and Harry:

> 

> Thanks for posts re Jackie RobinsonN&W Specials.

> 

> I am overseas, working on projects here, and will reply upon return

> to

> the US in December.

> 

> Go well. Frank

> 

> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:50:03 -0400, NW Mailing List

>  wrote:

>> On Jul 8, 2010, at 6:11 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:

>> I have been following the rebroadcast of PBS' American Experience/

>> Ken Burns Baseball. In the most recent segment featuring the Jackie

>> Robinson story, fleeting MENTION IS MADE OF THE "JACKIE ROBINSON

>> SPECIAL", a train running in the 1947 season from Norfolk to

>> Cincinnati for Robinson fans delirious over JACKIE'S HAVING BEEN

>> SIGNED BY THE BROOKLYN DODGERS THAT YEAR, THE FIRST

> AFRICAN-AMERICAN

>> ADMITTED TO MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL. YEARS BEFORE IN THE NEGRO

> LEAGUES

>> JACKIE HAD PLAYED ON THE NORFOLK TEAM. THE "SPECIAL" RAN WHEN THE

>> DODGERS PLAYED AT CINCINNATI.

>>

>> SOUNDS LIKE THE RAIL PROTAGONIST WAS THE N&W, END TO END. CAN

> ANYONE

>> CONFIRM?

>>

>> HAS THE STORY EVER APPEARED IN THE ARROW? IF NOT, ISN'T IT TIME

> THAT

>> IT DID?

>>

>> I'D BE GLAD TO WORK ON RECOVERING THE STORY, OR COLLABORATE WITH

>> OTHERS. ANYONE KNOW WHERE DETAILS MIGHT BE UNCOVERED? PERHAPS NEWS

>> STORIES IN THE NORFOLK AND CINCINNATI NEWSPAPERS, FOR A START? ANY

>> NORFOLK AND CINCINNATI PEOPLE CARE TO INQUIRE?

>>

>> I GOOGLED WHAT I COULD, AND FOUND--AGAIN, JUST A PASSING

> REFERENCE--A

>> NOTE (P. 196) IN JULES TYGIEL'S "BASEBALL'S GREAT

> EXPERIMENT--JACKIE

>> ROBINSON AND HIS LEGACY", 1997 (REVISED EDITION), PRINTED ON

> OCCASION

>> OF THE 50TH ANNIVERSARY OF ROBINSON'S BREAKING THE COLOR BARRIER IN

>> THE NATIONAL SPORT.

>>

>> SO ANYONE WITH INFO OR POINTERS FOR RESEARCH, DO SPEAK UP!

>>

>> FRANK GIBSON

>>

>> Frank

>>

>> Since I've seen no response to your inquiry of now 2 months ago, I

>> thought you might benefit from the following. I suspect the lack of

>> response shows a general lack of knowledge or information on the

>> specific question. So I thought I'd pass on my thoughts. You may

> have

>> to do some serious detective work, so I did some of the research,

> as

>> it did kind of intrigue me. I started this a long time ago, but did

>> not send it like I thought, so my apologies for the overlong

>> dissertation. As you will see, this is not going to be an easy

> answer

>> question. I've done some of the research and gone into some detail

>> here. Having been involved in planning of long distance excursion

>> trains in the modern era, I feel some of that experience factors

> in.

>>

>> While the story itself may be interesting, it sounds that it might

>> simply be a short story, not much more. This is, so far, what I

>> consider anecdotal history, or nothing to document it other than

> word

>> of mouth. I do not have the book you referenced, so I can't really

>> speak to the author's source, but it may indeed have been anecdotal

> as

>> well.

>>

>> I've done a good bit of the digging for you, after you read the

>> following, if you still think there might be a story you will want

> to

>> pursue further it will probably take some time.

>>

>> In general, anecdotal history, is simply history passed down

> through

>> time, just because it sounds like it should be the case, in some

>> people's mind, it must have been, but reality can often be totally

>> different. A number of publishers are less than concerned with

>> accuracy, their interest is in getting a product to market, facts

> and

>> correct information are not important.

>>

>> I know nothing about the book you cited, and I'm not really

>> interested enough to purchase a copy of the book cited to check it

>> out, and none of the local libraries have it.

>>

>> Rather than spend weeks searching through the Norfolk newspapers

>> which may yield nothing. First you should have a look at the

> reality

>> and speculate to what might have been done at the time. Some of my

>> thoughts are:

>>

>> If this special did run, it could have been either the C&O or the

>> N&W, both served the tidewater area and Cincinnati. The C&O served

>> Norfolk, while technically ending at Newport News, the C&O did have

> a

>> Norfolk station at one time which was only connected via ferry or

>> later a bus. The C&O would serve a slightly larger population base

>> along the way, however.

>>

>> Passenger specials were common in the steam era and on up until the

>> mid 1960s. I doubt you are going to find anyone who might have been

>> involved in the planning, or scheduling of any such train, as we

> are

>> now talking 63 years ago, at least that might remember any

> specifics.

>> I'm not aware of the existence of any company files on excursion

>> trains from that era, as most of the passenger department files

> seemed

>> to have been tossed out after the end of service in 1971.

>>

>> The N&W regularly ran baseball specials to Cincinnati, usually from

>> Bluefield or Williamson and west to Cincinnati, the C&O ran

> specials

>> as well, most running from Charleston or Huntington, but on at

> least

>> one occasion from Clifton Forge. Cincinnati was a great destination

>> for both roads, as the original Crosley Field was within reasonable

>> walking distance of Cincinnati Union Terminal. In fact, the June

> 1947

>> N&W Magazine had a feature story on the first post war excursion

>> train, a baseball special from Bluefield to Cincinnati, consisting

> of

>> sixteen coaches and a single diner. The article did not give a full

>> schedule unfortunately.

>>

>> This special was for a doubleheader with the Boston Braves on

> Sunday,

>> May 18, 1947. According the article, the train left Bluefield at

> 9:30

>> pm on the 17th with 103 passengers on board, added 127 at Welch,

> 131

>> at Williamson, 34 at Kenova and finally 83 at Portsmouth. Between

>> Bluefield and Portsmouth, the special stopped at most of the local

>> stops along the way adding passengers at every place, adding an

>> additional 215 enroute at the local stops. The train finally

> arrived

>> at Cincinnati with a full load of 693 passengers. Running,

> essentially

>> as a local from Bluefield to Portsmouth, the schedule was slow

> working

>> passengers at every stop. That is an average of 57.75 riders per

>> coach, pretty efficient transportation. Riders came from all around

>> the region according to the article, Pocahontas, Richlands,

> Bossevain,

>> etc. etc. I'd hazard a guess that arrival in Cincinnati was

> somewhere

>> around 11 am.

>>

>> Not everyone on board went to the games, it was reported that some

>> went to visit relatives, others went to the zoo. Regardless, as you

>> can see, baseball was a very popular sport in the coal country.

> These

>> specials were an easy way to generate some additional passenger

>> business with just a little extra effort. 1947 was still a fairly

> busy

>> passenger year after the war.

>>

>> By the way, the Reds split the doubleheader with the Braves. Some

>> 24,432 fans attended. From the photo in the N&W Magazine, it was

>> obviously a day game.

>>

>> According to the schedule (Baseball Almanac) I found, Brooklyn

> played

>> at Cincinnati on three different occasions during the 1947 season:

>>

>> Tuesday, 05-13-1947

>> Wednesday, 05-14-1947

>>

>> Saturday, 06-21-1947

>> Sunday, 06-22-1947, Double Header

>>

>> Sunday, 09-14-1947 Double Header

>> Tuesday, 09-16-1947

>>

>> The most logical assumptions would be the two doubleheaders, the

>> first on Sunday, June 22, or second September 14. Cincinnati was

> the

>> first place to install lights for night play, playing the first

> game

>> under the lights in 1935. So I do not know if these games were day

> or

>> night, it certainly seems likely that the both double headers were

> day

>> games, as it was a Sunday.

>>

>> I went through the entire year of 1947 N&W Magazines, and could

> find

>> no mention of any Jackie Robinson Special. I was not surprised by

>> that, as I said, excursions were fairly common at the time and only

>> occasionally when it was unusual or really special, were they

> reported

>> in the Magazine.

>>

>> Now as far as a train ride from Norfolk to Cincinnati and return,

> it

>> is a long ride, over 600 miles by rail.

>> By my April 1947 timetable, No. 3, the Pocahontas left Norfolk at

>> 2:40 pm with arrival in Cincinnati at 8:10 am, running time of 17

>> hours and 50 minutes.

>> The Powhatan Arrow, No. 25 departed at 7:30 am, arrival at 11 pm,

>> running time of 15 hours, 10 minutes.

>> No. 15, The Cavalier, leaving Norfolk at 11 pm, arrival at

> Cincinnati

>> 7:50 pm, running time of 20 hours and 50 minutes.

>>

>> No. 3 and No. 15 both were worked with mail and express in between

>> points, cutting cars in and out, slowing the schedule. The Arrow

> was a

>> shorter train, 6-8 cars (at that time) with much more limited stops

>> and no mail and express or sleepers. Mostly lightweight equipment

> as

>> well. But if this alleged special was like the other baseball

> special

>> mentioned above, it did a lot of local stopping. Since it was

> likely

>> to be a coach train with a diner, it would likely have been 16 of

> the

>> heavyweight, 1600 series PG coaches and a De diner.

>>

>> With a heavier train, and many local stops, the special would

>> certainly not be able to make the Arrow's schedule.

>>

>> So, with averaging out the time, lets give a special train a

> running

>> time somewhere between the Pocahontas and the Cavalier, so lets

> call

>> it about 19.5 hours running time, each way. That would include time

>> for local rider handling, plus time to add or remove a diner in

>> Roanoke. Lets add an hour in Cincinnati for time to get to the

> game. I

>> don't know what time of day the games were scheduled for, but

> usually

>> today it is around 2 PM. Since you really can't cut the schedule

> too

>> close due to possible delays, even with "Precision Transportation"

> you

>> better plan on arrival in Cincinnati at least 3 hours ahead of

>> schedule, so the arrival is 11 AM so, now you have to back time

> from

>> Norfolk to leave at 4:30 pm the day before. Then you have to have

> some

>> time to allow for extra innings games, so you might get back and

>> loaded to roll from Union Station at 7 or so, which means you are

> back

>> into Norfolk at somewhere around 2 the next afternoon. That is a

>> really long trip, and without sleepers, a VERY long coach ride

>> overnight.

>>

>> So it seems most likely it might be an overnight outing,

> complicating

>> the arrangements, with hotels, which may well easily eliminate the

>> railroad's involvement.

>>

>> The C&O did not have a better schedule, with connections to ride

> No.

>> 1, The George Washington would have a total time of about 18 hours

> and

>> 20 minutes, No. 3 the FFV was a bit slower with a total time of

> about

>> 19 hours and 50 minutes. Now bear in mind, these were connections

> from

>> Newport News to the mainline at Charlottesville, so these are not

>> straight running times. I did not have handy a 1947 C&O timetable,

> so

>> those times may be a bit off. But regardless, I'd say that any C&O

>> trip would easily be somewhat longer than the N&W.

>>

>> Now on to the facts of the baseball side, at least according to

> what

>> I have found, the Norfolk Tars were a New York Yankee farm team in

>> 1944-1946, but they played in the Piedmont league. To tie this back

> to

>> the railroad, Roanoke also fielded a team, the Roanoke Red Sox in

> the

>> Piedmont League at that time. Jackie played only 45 games in the

> negro

>> leagues, that was for the Kansas City Monarchs in 1945. He had been

> in

>> the US Army prior to that. In 1946, he was signed to the Brooklyn

>> Dodgers and assigned to their farm team in Montreal. Norfolk did

> not

>> have a team in the International League in 1946. Since baseball

> (and

>> the south) was still widely segregated, I sort of doubt that

> anything

>> other than an exhibition game may have been played in the Norfolk

> area

>> which would likely have had to have been the Kansas City Monarchs

>> against some other team (I'd say most likely another black team),

> as

>> apparently it was a popular area for baseball. Where they would

> play,

>> I'm not certain.

>>

>> I'd be curious to know why Jackie Robinson would have had any

> greater

>> following in the Norfolk area than other places, since he was not

> from

>> that area and, at least from what I've seen, did appear to play

> there.

>>

>> Now, as far as how to find information on any special train. That

> is

>> going to require some real time and effort, and even with that, you

>> may or may not find anything. The N&W and others usually printed up

>> flyers that would be hung at various stations along the way for

>> special trains. By no means do I have a really good collection of

>> those flyers, I've seen ones for other baseball specials, including

>> one to see Babe Ruth play in an exhibition game. But not one in

> this

>> specific case.

>>

>> In my opinion, this trip does not seem to be a really likely

>> scenario, mainly due to the list of things above. I'm not saying it

>> didn't, I'd be glad to see some evidence that it did, I just think

> it

>> will be difficult at best, possibly even next to impossible to find

> if

>> it was real, or just anecdotal history. If I was planning on

>> researching this, I'd start by searching the Norfolk newspaper,

>> looking for ads for a trip in April and May or even early June, or

>> August and September of 1947. Unfortunately, to my searching, the

>> Norfolk, Roanoke, Lynchburg or Cincinnati papers are not available

>> online that I can find. It might have been mentioned in the

> CIncinnati

>> paper after the fact. Other places I'd try would be the Lynchburg

> and

>> Roanoke papers, but I just feel like it will be chasing a ghost,

> that

>> may prove to find nothing. There is absolutely no guarantee of the

>> trip being advertised in the paper either, advertising costs money,

>> and will cut into the potential profits, the N&W seems to have

> rarely

>> advertised for such specific things, at least by this time period.

>>

>> Best

>> Ken Miller

> 

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> --

> Skip Salmon