Mine runs Re: loco motions

[NW Mailing List]

Grant et al.
Thank you so much for your responses, I will keep asking as long as you
keep answering :-)
>From the Pokey's point of view, empties magically appeared in huge strings
at Bluefield and Williamson, and needed to be distributed to every mining
operation.  What I think I just put together from Grant's response (please
correct me on anything/everything) is there was a distribution hierarchy of
runs to keep everyone supplied.  Those big "mainline" runs that I started
with in my first post, would start their runs "all empty" and set off cuts
at what I will call distribution points (yards) while picking up loads from
these large holding facilities.  The ones that come to my mind are Flat
Top, Cliff, Byrd, Eckman, Vivian/Kimball, and I get foggier as I go West of
my primary area of interest.  Mike you probably know the ones around
Iaeger, so please chime in.  Is there a comprehensive list?  The mainline
run would, at some point have set off all its empties and picked up a full
train of loads and head back to its terminal of origin be it Bluefield or
Williamson.  How am I doing so far?  I am going to keep my posts somewhat
short so as to try to concentrate on a limited aspect at a time to help
keep things straight, at least for me.
Thanks,
Jim Cochran

On Thu, Nov 20, 2025 at 8:53 PM NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
wrote:

> Jim,
>
> My apologies for the late arrival.
>
> What Chris states didn't change much from the steam era when there were
> more runs to more tipples. Every run was different, in part, because, "the
> type of moves really varied from one coal operation to the next." Some
> tipples were stub-end (Crumpler), but most were run-arounds with an inlet
> switch above the tipple and an outlet below. Typically, empties rolled by
> gravity from the delivery tracks down to the tipple tracks for loading,
> then down to the outlet tracks.
>
> Especially on the East End, significant grades were a constant for every
> job, so the (one) engine was dispatched running forward if there was a turn
> on the run, otherwise it was dispatched facing upgrade. Some runs took all
> of their empties, others some or none, and picked them up along the way at
> storage points where mainline runs had set off empties and picked up loads
> the previous night. And picking up their empties could vary day to day, by
> location, by the numbers, and from one extreme to the other.
>
> At various points, the engine could be pulling empties or shoving them
> ahead, depending on run-around opportunities and switch arrangements ahead.
> Loads stayed next to the engine and could be on both ends. The crew would
> have the adjacent main track for however much time, pending superior
> movements. Even branchline shifters had a passenger run to consider. For
> example, your North Fork job routinely made *three* different runs up the
> branch per shift because of a mix of facing- and trailing-point moves at
> various tipples that totaled a million tons per year, and all while dodging
> the passenger run.
>
> Then there was the nearby Keystone tipple on the main line that rated
> almost a million tons a year by itself. Seems easier than the North Fork
> Branch, except that the tipple was jammed into a bend in the hollow such
> that the delivery track capacity was only about 35 cars. Every local job in
> the area was on call to work it, including the North Fork Branch passenger
> job between runs. Picture a Class M working a huge tipple on the main line.
> In 1950.
>
> And this was just in the Greater Northfork area of special interest to
> you. The variety that makes Pocahontas Division operations difficult to
> characterize in broad generalizations is what can make it so interesting to
> model. On multiple levels, no two jobs were the same and no two days were
> the same. So answers to many questions may depend on specific jobs and/or
> locations. Ask away and we will answer best we can (soon as we can). More
> to come.
>
> Grant Carpenter
>
> On 11/17/2025 4:14 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:
>
> Jim,
> During my era of dispatching, the type of moves really varied from one
> coal operation to the next. We typically referred to the mine runs as
> “shifters”.  A “turn crew” was usually a mainline crew that was designated
> as a “one day job” which meant that regardless of where they went on a
> train or in a taxi they would terminate back in their original home
> terminal at the end of their shift.
>
> Regarding the directional status of locomotives, during my career the
> setup of a consist to have a short hood in each direction became more and
> more an expectation.  I didn’t have too many mine operations that were
> worked with a single locomotive in a traditional “deliver empties then pull
> loads” operating plan.
>
> At the operations where this was the case, most crews would choose to
> handle empties with long hood lead and the much heavier loads coming back
> out with short hood lead on their engine for better visibility.  If the
> operation happened to be near a “wye”, it was not uncommon to turn the
> engine after delivering empties before pulling the loads to maintain a
> short hood lead for any move where they were handling cars.
>
> My guess is that turning the engine like this was much less prevalent in
> the eras of steam and high hood diesels with dual controls.  I’m interested
> in what Grant’s input will be on this for the steam era.
>
> Thank Ya’n Out,
> Chris Dalton
> Bluefield, WV
>
> On Nov 17, 2025, at 11:26 AM, NW Mailing List wrote:
>
> Jim,
> Only one engine. If there was no way to turn the engine for the return
> trip, the engine ran backwards out of the terminal.
>
> Jimmy Lisle
>
> -------- Original message --------
> Date: 11/17/25 9:07 AM
> Subject: loco motions
>
> If I am remembering correctly the things I have read heard in the past
> indicate that a mine servicing run (was this called a turn?) in the part of
> the Pokey in which I am most interested, would begin with a train
> comprising a string of empty hoppers sandwiched between a couple
> locomotives, one of which was facing West while the other faced East.
>
> From my meager understanding, there were two typical track arrangements
> for tipple sidings. They both began with a turnout off the main line
> followed by additional turnouts whose number varied according to things
> like the number of sized of coal produced, storage track configuration,
> run-around track, re-connection to the main, etc.
>
> In one example, a coal operation would have only one turnout on the main.
> This would necessitate one of locomotives with a cut of empties to cut off
> from the rest of the (?turn/job/movement?) and move the empties into the
> mine trackage. Did the rest of the train remain on the main in the rain
> blocking other traffic? Also, was there a preference for whether the
> servicing unit proceeded moving forward or in reverse for this part of the
> operation? If there were no run-around track at the mine, the locomotive
> would have to push his empties past the tipple for gravity feeding
> purposes, cut them loose after sufficient brakes had been set, move back
> down to where this mine's loads had been stored, couple up, move this
> string down to the main, reattach to the rest of the turn and move on down
> to the next operation.
>
> This account contains much conjecture on my part, and my purpose is to
> learn how things really worked such as when those locomotives were run
> forward and when they ran in reverse along with other specifics of the
> operations along my most beloved portion of the Pokey.
>
> If this is of interest to others or I get response (Grant, hint, hint), I
> will follow up with additional questions and conjecture.
>
> Jim Cochran
>
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