Mainline hopper movements Re: Mine runs

[NW Mailing List]

Jim,

That's right, there was a pool of road crews based in each main 
terminal, Elkhorn Pool in Bluefield and Tug River Pool in Williamson, 
that hauled empties (when available) to storage points and returned with 
loads from storage points. Mine runs only had to move empties and loads 
between tipples and the nearest storage point. Those points on the main 
line from Bluefield west to Iaeger included: Mullins Middle, Flat Top 
Yard, Bluestone (River Track), Angle Branch, Morgan Storage, North Fork 
Hollow/Elk Ridge Storage, Byrd Yard, Eckman Yard, Vivian (Kimball Yard), 
Cirrus Storage, Huger Middle, Superior #3 Outlet, Tug Storage, Farm 
Storage, Caples Outlet, Davy Storage, Twin Branch Storage, Claren 
Storage and Hull Middle (the limit of Elkhorn crews). Branchline yards 
served by pool runs included Clift, Wilcoe and Auville.

As I mentioned earlier, operation limits, variations and exceptions were 
typical; however, to your last point, I agree it is a good idea to limit 
my posts to the specific questions and limit details, so feel free to 
follow up.

Grant Carpenter

On 11/22/2025 2:44 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:
> Grant et al.
> Thank you so much for your responses, I will keep asking as long as 
> you keep answering :-)
> From the Pokey's point of view, empties magically appeared in huge 
> strings at Bluefield and Williamson, and needed to be distributed to 
> every mining operation.  What I think I just put together from Grant's 
> response (please correct me on anything/everything) is there was a 
> distribution hierarchy of runs to keep everyone supplied.  Those big 
> "mainline" runs that I started with in my first post, would start 
> their runs "all empty" and set off cuts at what I will call 
> distribution points (yards) while picking up loads from these large 
> holding facilities.  The ones that come to my mind are Flat Top, 
> Cliff, Byrd, Eckman, Vivian/Kimball, and I get foggier as I go West of 
> my primary area of interest.  Mike you probably know the ones around 
> Iaeger, so please chime in.  Is there a comprehensive list?  The 
> mainline run would, at some point have set off all its empties and 
> picked up a full train of loads and head back to its terminal of 
> origin be it Bluefield or Williamson.  How am I doing so far?  I am 
> going to keep my posts somewhat short so as to try to concentrate on a 
> limited aspect at a time to help keep things straight, at least for me.
> Thanks,
> Jim Cochran
>
> On Thu, Nov 20, 2025 at 8:53 PM NW Mailing List 
> <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
>
>     Jim,
>
>     My apologies for the late arrival.
>
>     What Chris states didn't change much from the steam era when there
>     were more runs to more tipples. Every run was different, in part,
>     because, "the type of moves really varied from one coal operation
>     to the next." Some tipples were stub-end (Crumpler), but most were
>     run-arounds with an inlet switch above the tipple and an outlet
>     below. Typically, empties rolled by gravity from the delivery
>     tracks down to the tipple tracks for loading, then down to the
>     outlet tracks.
>
>     Especially on the East End, significant grades were a constant for
>     every job, so the (one) engine was dispatched running forward if
>     there was a turn on the run, otherwise it was dispatched facing
>     upgrade. Some runs took all of their empties, others some or none,
>     and picked them up along the way at storage points where mainline
>     runs had set off empties and picked up loads the previous night.
>     And picking up their empties could vary day to day, by location,
>     by the numbers, and from one extreme to the other.
>
>     At various points, the engine could be pulling empties or shoving
>     them ahead, depending on run-around opportunities and switch
>     arrangements ahead. Loads stayed next to the engine and could be
>     on both ends. The crew would have the adjacent main track for
>     however much time, pending superior movements. Even branchline
>     shifters had a passenger run to consider. For example, your North
>     Fork job routinely made *three* different runs up the branch per
>     shift because of a mix of facing- and trailing-point moves at
>     various tipples that totaled a million tons per year, and all
>     while dodging the passenger run.
>
>     Then there was the nearby Keystone tipple on the main line that
>     rated almost a million tons a year by itself. Seems easier than
>     the North Fork Branch, except that the tipple was jammed into a
>     bend in the hollow such that the delivery track capacity was only
>     about 35 cars. Every local job in the area was on call to work it,
>     including the North Fork Branch passenger job between runs.
>     Picture a Class M working a huge tipple on the main line. In 1950.
>
>     And this was just in the Greater Northfork area of special
>     interest to you. The variety that makes Pocahontas Division
>     operations difficult to characterize in broad generalizations is
>     what can make it so interesting to model. On multiple levels, no
>     two jobs were the same and no two days were the same. So answers
>     to many questions may depend on specific jobs and/or locations.
>     Ask away and we will answer best we can (soon as we can). More to
>     come.
>
>     Grant Carpenter
>
>     On 11/17/2025 4:14 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:
>>     Jim,
>>     During my era of dispatching, the type of moves really varied
>>     from one coal operation to the next. We typically referred to the
>>     mine runs as “shifters”.  A “turn crew” was usually a mainline
>>     crew that was designated as a “one day job” which meant that
>>     regardless of where they went on a train or in a taxi they would
>>     terminate back in their original home terminal at the end of
>>     their shift.
>>
>>     Regarding the directional status of locomotives, during my career
>>     the setup of a consist to have a short hood in each direction
>>     became more and more an expectation.  I didn’t have too many mine
>>     operations that were worked with a single locomotive in a
>>     traditional “deliver empties then pull loads” operating plan.
>>
>>     At the operations where this was the case, most crews would
>>     choose to handle empties with long hood lead and the much heavier
>>     loads coming back out with short hood lead on their engine for
>>     better visibility.  If the operation happened to be near a “wye”,
>>     it was not uncommon to turn the engine after delivering empties
>>     before pulling the loads to maintain a short hood lead for any
>>     move where they were handling cars.
>>
>>     My guess is that turning the engine like this was much less
>>     prevalent in the eras of steam and high hood diesels with dual
>>     controls.  I’m interested in what Grant’s input will be on this
>>     for the steam era.
>>
>>     Thank Ya’n Out,
>>     Chris Dalton
>>     Bluefield, WV
>>>     On Nov 17, 2025, at 11:26 AM, NW Mailing List wrote:
>>>     Jim,
>>>     Only one engine. If there was no way to turn the engine for the
>>>     return trip, the engine ran backwards out of the terminal.
>>>
>>>     Jimmy Lisle
>>>
>>>     -------- Original message --------
>>>     Date: 11/17/25 9:07 AM
>>>     Subject: loco motions
>>>
>>>     If I am remembering correctly the things I have read heard in
>>>     the past indicate that a mine servicing run (was this called a
>>>     turn?) in the part of the Pokey in which I am most interested,
>>>     would begin with a train comprising a string of empty hoppers
>>>     sandwiched between a couple locomotives, one of which was facing
>>>     West while the other faced East.
>>>
>>>     From my meager understanding, there were two typical track
>>>     arrangements for tipple sidings. They both began with a turnout
>>>     off the main line followed by additional turnouts whose number
>>>     varied according to things like the number of sized of coal
>>>     produced, storage track configuration, run-around track,
>>>     re-connection to the main, etc.
>>>
>>>     In one example, a coal operation would have only one turnout on
>>>     the main. This would necessitate one of locomotives with a cut
>>>     of empties to cut off from the rest of the (?turn/job/movement?)
>>>     and move the empties into the mine trackage. Did the rest of the
>>>     train remain on the main in the rain blocking other traffic?
>>>     Also, was there a preference for whether the servicing unit
>>>     proceeded moving forward or in reverse for this part of the
>>>     operation? If there were no run-around track at the mine, the
>>>     locomotive would have to push his empties past the tipple for
>>>     gravity feeding purposes, cut them loose after sufficient brakes
>>>     had been set, move back down to where this mine's loads had been
>>>     stored, couple up, move this string down to the main, reattach
>>>     to the rest of the turn and move on down to the next operation.
>>>
>>>     This account contains much conjecture on my part, and my purpose
>>>     is to learn how things really worked such as when those
>>>     locomotives were run forward and when they ran in reverse along
>>>     with other specifics of the operations along my most beloved
>>>     portion of the Pokey.
>>>
>>>     If this is of interest to others or I get response (Grant, hint,
>>>     hint), I will follow up with additional questions and conjecture.
>>>
>>>     Jim Cochran
>>>
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