[Woodcarver] Copyrights

[jdscrafts]

Barney,

There was recently a case heard in court over something like this.  If I remember right a photo was printed in a paper and a guys face was shown in the photo.  He was not the center of attention, in other words the photo was of something else but he was walking by at the time. To make matters more complicated I believe he was Amish.  He sued the paper and the photographer and lost.  The judge basically ruled that if you are out in public you are fair game as long as you are not the intended subject of the photo.  Photos as you described are of an activity, not any one individual, and would be fine to use as references.  If you were to center your carving on one particular person in that activity without their permission then there may be a problem.  Exceptions would be things such as music concerts and such, and in most cases the artist clearly states use of any photos or recordings are clearly forbidden, and often they do not allow cameras to be present for this reason.

Jim D.
http://www.picturetrail.com/oldtool2
http://www.jdscrafts.com
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Barney Elking 
  To: [Woodcarver] 
  Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 2:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [Woodcarver] Copyrights


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  Ivan:
  A thought just occurred to me in the midst of this copyright discussion.  I take a lot of photographs of people in various activities - street celebrations, farmer's markets, outdoor craft shows, etc. and would like to be able to use them as a basis for the figures that I do.  Since I haven't a clue as to the identity of most of the subjects and their appearance is fleeting, can I use these photos as carving references without concerning myself that I am violating somebody's rights?

  Barney Elking
  Fortuna, CA

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Ivan Whillock 
    To: [Woodcarver] 
    Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 7:48 AM
    Subject: Re: [Woodcarver] Copyrights


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    The fact that Degas painted ballerinas does not mean that all other paintings of ballerinas would infringe on his copyright or would not be original.  It all depends on the source.  If I studied real ballerinas to do my painting, it would an original.  If I used Degas' painting as my source that would not be.  To put it another way, If I use PRIMARY sources as my model--the real thing, or my own imagination, I am creating an original.  If I rely on a SECONDARY source--something that is already a work of art, then I am not.   (Thus, Bill's advice to take your own pictures is great advice because that way you are using primary sources.)

    To create an original you don't have to do something that has never, ever been done before.  You just have to do it on your own hook, not basing your work on a work that has already been created.  If you carve an old lady sitting in a rocking chair, you can't guarantee that someone somewhere hasn't also carved or painted an old lady sitting in a rocking chair, but the likelihood of one being taken as a copy of the other is very remote, considering all of the variables on the subject.  However, if you use  Whistler's painting as your pattern, then all bets are off.  You are basing your carving on another work of art.

    In addition, it is generally acceptable to do research of other works of art--a bit like that term paper we had to write in school.  If our paper was based on a reasonable number of sources--based on our own research, if was fine.  If we simply paraphrased a paper that had already been written--we got an F.  

    Likewise, if I want to do a Santa, and look at a whole lot of Santa carvings to get ideas and then put those aside and do my own version not based on any particular one of them, that would be fine.  If, on the other hand, I took a liking to a particular Santa, and copied or simply paraphrased that, I'd get an F in originality.

    ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: jdscrafts 
      To: [Woodcarver] 
      Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 8:18 AM
      Subject: Re: [Woodcarver] Copyrights


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      I have found this discussion very interesting and there have been many very good points made.  I still have a problem though.  It is my opinion that in this time period it is extremely difficult to create something that it totally original.  No matter how hard you try somewhere down the lines of history some one else has done something very similar.  Do not get me wrong, it is not impossible.  My relief of a witch flying a power broom has probably never been done and I am sure there are very few if any Santa's delivering a squirrel been done.

      I recently did an angel as a gift for my parents though.  There have been so many angels drawn of history I am sure someone could find a drawing very similar to it.  I am presently doing a relief of Jesus, and again am sure something similar could be found.  

      My question is where is the line drawn?  Because we do something that reminds someone of something they have seen, or done, does it mean we have infringed on their copyright for the idea?

       Jim D.
      http://www.picturetrail.com/oldtool2
      http://www.jdscrafts.com
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Marcia Berkall 
        To: woodcarver at six.pairlist.net 
        Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 2:51 PM
        Subject: RE: [Woodcarver] Copyrights


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        IMHO you are still in violation ....even if you don't get caught.  As Byron said, "take the high road" ....because its the right thing to do.

        My suggestion, if you are in need of copyright information, the best place to go is the U.S. Copyright Office .  All the information you need is there   http://www.copyright.gov/

        Thank you, Ivan.....well put!!!

        Marcia (aka Mush)
        South China, Maine


          At 02:37 PM 11/5/2005, Byron wrote: 
            [snip] 
            My point is that it's best to attempt to take the high road and not directly copy, even then it could appear that there was a copyright infringement.  However, creating one caving from a picture is so far under the radar that the chances of the courts needing to determine the applicability of the law are almost non existent.  
            (I'm ducking, cause the flames are gonna be coming my way)


        See Marcia's wood carvings at:
        http://www.pivot.net/~whitwood
        http://community.webshots.com/user/cahvah

        Affordable Web Page Design:
        http://artwebmaine.com




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